An interview with Shri R. Natarajan IAS, First Registrar of IIT Madras by Prof. Ajit Kumar Kolar, Former faculty and alumnus in presence of Shri Kumaran Sathasivam

We are here at the residence of Shri R. Natarajan

IAS, who was the first Registrar of IIT Madras

from 1959 to 1965.

He has graciously consented to a personal interview by me,

Ajit Kolar here and my friend Mr. Kumaran

to discuss about his experience with IIT Madras right

from the time it was instituted in 1959.

Thank you Shri Natarajan for having

accepted to have us here in you residence.

It is an honor for me.

Pleasure and honor for us too.

We have set up a Heritage Centre IIT Madras,

Professor R. Natarajan who was the Director then asked me to

start this work and later under Professor Ananth’s directorship

it was completed.

And when I started collecting information about IIT Madras,

I had some Annual Numbers of those times and albums.

And one person who was there in most of the photographs

of the early albums and who was referred to in many of these articles

was yourself Shri R. Natarajan, the first Registrar of IIT Madras.

That was the gracious Registrar of the IIT.

And I have always been thinking about

meeting personally with you and

getting information about IIT Madras in those days.

And today it has been possible and along with me

Mr. Kumaran who is now on the Advisory Committee

of the Heritage Centre we are here today.

As you know the seed for IIT Madras was sown in

Bonn in July 1956 when Prime Minister Nehru visited Bonn;

he had discussions with President Hayes

at that time and Chancellor Adenauer. Konrad Adenauer.

Yes, that was July 15th, 16th of 1956.

At the end of that visit, they basically agreed that

Germany will help us in setting up an in

Technical Teaching Institute in India.

They call it a Technische Hochschule in German Technische Hochschule in German. Yeah.

So, that was in the report at the end of the visit.

And then the Ruker Mission came in November 1956;

several interactions were there between Indian bureaucrats

educationists and the Germans.

The result of all that was IIT Madras,

the third one in the IIT family

was inaugurated by Professor Humayun Kabir on 31st July 1959

and then the history of IIT Madras really started.

I would like to know at what point in time you came into this picture,

when were you offered the position and how did? I was officer in Madurai,

when I heard it was it was a bolt from the blue.

I had I was organizing settlement

that is introducing ryotwari

in Trichy and Madura districts

and thoroughly enjoying my time there.

I was living in a colonial building,

huge with a garden and all that

and when suddenly my posting orders came

appointing me as the Registrar of the IIT;

I must be frank enough to tell you

that I was shocked more than surprised,

because the IIT is a very a technical affair

and for me to be posted an IAS officer

to at the IIT was a disappointment.

But then when I joined the IIT

and went to that cool cathedral greenery the I bought

above the IIT with all its deer and of course,

not to leave out the monkeys and mongooses. Yeah.

After 15 days I found that it was my

deliverance from routine revenue administration

to do something new, to sit on a campus,

enjoying nature and you could watch your the result of your work

from day to day.

not so in god, will dispose of files and god knows

when the result flows out.

But here in the IIT buildings, academics

and all our efforts in making the IIT

the glorious institution that it is

and Professor Sengupto was the first Director;

he was a very fine personality,

he was a King's Prizeman from Bombay. Ok.

He had won the Kings Medal for Mechanical Engineering

and it was a real pleasure to work with him.

He was a very encouraging type

and he knew the art of delegation to a team.

And once you get into his confidence,

he will leave the whole thing to you.

And we formed a very good trio: Professor Sengupto,

myself and our engineer Y. S. Ramaswamy. Yes.

He came from CPWB again on deputation,

but he came 2 years after I joined. I see.

And everything we were shining in borrowed feathers only,

because our my our office was in the

Central Leather Research Institute. Yes.

The classes were being held in the A. C. College of technology. Yes.

And students were staying in a hostel of the Teachers College,

students staying in a Teachers College hostel. Yeah.

Sir, I believe there were two hostels;

one the one you mentioned in Saidapet Teachers College. Yeah.

Another one in Guindy. Yeah.

Near Guindy Race Course. Right.

We have not been able to identify those places actually;

one was a vegetarian mess,

I am told another was a non-vegetarian mess at time. Non-vegetarian.

And Dr. D. Venkateswaralu was the first- Yeah.

warden of these hostels. Not only that, Dr. Dunduluri Venkateswarlu-

Yes. was the team man,

he was- we appointed him as the President of the Gymkhanas

because he had an excellent rapport with the students.

And I found Dr. Venkateswarlu to be very hard working,

very sweet and student orienting.

So, the students enjoyed Dr. Venkateswarlu's leaderships.

Sengupto and we were

highly impressed with Dr. Venkateswarlu social abilities.

Sir, actually you were basically you were a lawyer,

am I right? No.

Before IAS, you took a law degree at least.

Law degree also, I took my B.A. Honors in History- Sir yeah.

Ok. from Presidency College,

and then the law degree from the Law College.

So, what was, again I am slightly going back.

So, law degree holder,

IAS officer and suddenly coming into a

Institute of Technology to start; so

what kind of thought processes in terms of starting this,

in terms of you were training or information that you got

how to start the IIT? I got some information

fortunately for me, Mr. Chandrakant was there with me for 20 days.

Ok, L. S. Chandrakant. L. S. Chandrakant.

Deputy Educational Advisor from the Government of India. Government of India

and from our local Assistant Advisor

V. R. Reddy. V. R. Reddy. Based in Madras.

He was a IAS officer. No no,

he was a from the ministry. Oh, from the ministry in IIT Madras.

Under he was Deputy Director in Delhi and sent here. I see.

And V. R. Reddy was the state representative- I see.

of the ministry, which was headed then by Mr. G. K. Chandramani.

G. K. Chandramani, yes

his name comes up often.

He was a member of the Board of Governors. Board of Governors.

So, these two personalities also helped you in initial.

On the insuring and then a Professor Sengupto was-

gave me all the background information. Ok.

And so, I at almost a semi technocrat was born in me. Ok.

I caught up with all those things,

especially a history of honors student

coming into violent contact with technology. Yes.

But then started my journey, every day.

We would like to know that sir,

your meeting Professor Sengupto almost for the first time I would guess.

First time. And also Dr. A. L. Mudaliar as the

Vice Chancellor. A. L. Mudaliar it was who had got me to the IIT.

Oh, he was-

After going through the personal file and all that

and Dr. A. L. Mudaliar was already there he was the Chairman. Yes Chairman,

again I would like to mention President Hayes

Chancellor Adenauer and Jawaharlal Nehru,

I call them the First Trinity of IIT Madras- Yes.

for sowing the seeds. Yeah.

And then Dr. A. L. Mudaliar, Professor Sengupto and

yourself as the Second Trinity yeah

of IIT Madras who planned and implemented that idea. Yeah absolutely.

Which was extremely important.

So, what were the first? In fact,

the day I gave the names of Bonn avenue,

Delhi Avenue and Madras Avenue- Ok.

because I told them ours IIT madras

is a tale of three cities. Yes.

Charles Dickens wrote a tale of two cities. Yes.

Ours was a handiwork of three cities;

Bonn, Madras and Delhi. Absolutely.

So, that is why I got those the avenues that those names. ok

So, in connection with that actually I wanted to ask you that,

but you have volunteered to give me that information;

how did this Gajendra Circle and the two elephants come in? It was purely my idea.

Ok. To see I was always fond of Bangalore.

I see. There you see Narasimharaja Circle that circle,

even now you have a Kumble Circle. Yes.

After he took 10 wickets. Yes.

So, I was impressed and I told Professor Sengupto-

and our engineer that we should install two big elephants there. I see.

And call it Gajendra Circle, I coined it. Ok.

Gajendra Circle and it became caught fired immediately. Yes.

The students all were referring to Gajendra Circle.

How were you connected with Bangalore sir?

Nothing special. Ok.

Except that I represented

a Presidency College in the All India

Inter-College Oratorical Debate at Bangalore- I see.

which I visited in the 1946, Ok.

when Bangalore was indeed a pensioners paradise. Yes.

In fact, I had to reach out for a sweater at 5 PM. Ok.

There were no fans; Yeah.

here you have air conditioners also in Bangalore.

At that time Bangalore was called the air conditioned city of India.

Air conditioned city of India

and then I had one advantage;

I was sub-collector under training at Salem,

which was only a 100 miles from Bangalore.

And I could go within 23 kilometers of Bangalore

in our own territory at Hosur.

Hosur yes. At Hosur.

So, on a Saturday or Sunday we could always go on to Bangalore. Very very nice;

how about the names of the hostels,

why were they? As we say I told Professor Sengupto

we must not name them after politicians

because they come and go. Yes.

We must go after something which is perennial

and that is the rivers. Yes.

All civilizations have flourished

only on river banks,

Paris on River Seine. Yes.

Kabul, Kabul was once Kapisha;

Kapisha was the river and in Gandhara.

So, the the river was always the fountainhead of the civilization. Absolutely.

Like Saraswati being the foundation of the Indus Valley Civilization. Yes.

We said we will name the hostels after the rivers, perennial river. Ok

that is- And then the buses were named after the-

Buses were named as a for a sort of a comical interlude,

we named them Kanchenjunga- Kanchenjunga.

because phonetically it was very good, Yeah then Everest.

Yes yes. To remind us of the great Everest.

And Kailash was there. It was a great challenge,

Kailash they were all great challenges to humanity

and the IIT was facing a big challenge; Yeah.

so he wanted to be inspired by Everest

and hilltops Kanchanajunga. Yeah IIT therefore,

IIT Madras was referred to as the place with

static rivers and moving mountains. Yeah.

Actually that was and that was by Professor Eisenhower.

Yes. A grandson of President Eisenhower.

And he was the dean of the Columbia University.

He came to the institute and addressed the students and faculty.

I was there and at the OAT. Yes.

And he said, what whatever you have or

have not at the IIT in Madras,

you can be proud of one thing. Yes.

You are the only place,

where you have stationary rivers and moving mountain. Oh, I see came from him.

You can always be proud of that. Very nice.

Sir, what was the first big challenge you faced when you came in

and started the all the activities? You see

the the costs of construction it iself; Yeah.

this school this at at best it was a temporary arrangement. Yes.

We must convert the forest into an academic institution,

have build and and then there was a shortage of commodities,

for the first year it was cement. I see.

The second year it was steel;

fortunately the the gentleman in charge of steel allotments

was a friend of mine from the IAS.

So, I could always get that extra bit done

by running up to Delhi and meeting him. I see.

And there will be special allotments

of steel inputs steel for our project.

These were the things and the the students;

if one must say that the students were exemplary,

they wanted to be as part of the challenge.

In the first year 120 students were there taken. 120 students.

Taken and interviews were held by two selection committees

formed at that time.

In that connection sir, how was the faculty

recruited right in the beginning, what was the procedure?

The first for the first two years,

the Dr. A. L. Mudaliar was the Chairman of the committee. Yeah.

And we always chose professors for outward from other IIT.

So, that we could have a and a need not have an

insure approach towards selection;

for example, Professor Balgaonkar of the IIT Kharagpur, Yes.

we used to invite him for the interviews on Mechanical Engineering.

He was head of the Department of Mechanical Engineering later. Yeah,

Professor Balgaonkar has always be there;

he will be happy to know who that we held

some of our interviews in Bangalore. I see.

At Dooravani Nagar. Ok, what prompted that?

And that because number one, so many we found that

so many candidates were applying from the

Indian Institute of Science at those places. I see.

And after all Bangladesh, this Bangalore was the hub

in those days. Yes.

The Indian Institute of Science. Yes.

And that was the pride of Bangalore. Yeah.

And so, we felt that so many people came from

in and around Bangalore,

we could as well have it in Bangalore. I see.

And there you will have the pleasure of the climate also helping.

Absolutely. Ok. In those days.

And after that the IIT be- we framed rules of selection,

by which the Director

became the Chairman of the selection committee. I see.

We did not want to trouble Dr. A. L. Mudaliar. Yes.

So, Dr. Professor Sengupto used to preside. Ok.

And then there the Deputy Director will be there, I will be there. Ok.

And the outside- Outside experts.

from Indian Institute of Science or from Kharagpur. Yes.

In fact, the man who manned the birth of this IIT

was a professor from the IIT Kharagpur, Dr. Kraus.

I was about to ask you about him and

how well did you know him and what was his role

in the initial state? He was a representative of

Garvi in Germany and he was asked

to he was already there in the IIT Kharagpur. Kharagpur.

As Professor of Civil Engineering. Civil Engineering. Civil Engineering.

Then he came out to he was asked to coordinate,

well he used to go come to the institute,

the departments were planned

by mutual consultation with the German experts.

And so, we had the whole thing nicely laid out,

there was no problem at all.

Professor Kraus was also- Dr. Koch.

Koch was from Physics Department.

Professor Physics Department. Yeah.

Then there was Dr. Kengan

and then there was Dr. Werner Haugh for

Applied Mechanics. Professor Scheer.

Wolfgang Scheer was for Mechanical Engineering. Mechanical Engineering

and I do not know by that time whether Dr. Rouve had come.

Dr. Rouve, yes have come very much come

and he and Hilda Rouve were our particular friends. I see.

Personally. Ok.

In addition to Professor Nikolaus Klein. Klein,

Professor Klein, yes.

He was very well known to us,

Rouve and he was very well known to us,

he used to come home. I see

And Klein named his two children.

Pradeep his son and Sita his daughter. I see I see,

this is is very interesting.

Profesor Klein also started the Campastimes.

Not in the Campastimes, the students themselves you know- Yeah.

Dr. Venkateswarlu. Yes.

And then I told them that and the the nice way,

you must have a students campus

news to know what you have achieved. Yes.

And what has to be achieved later on. Yeah.

And then for giving them a a talking point in the OAT

or around the Gajendra Circle

to discuss the misused news of the day. Ok,

sir when you were there those five, six years. A six and a half year.

Yes, six and a half year.

Sir you actually you left IIT on 6th April 1965. Yeah.

So, it is all almost 50 years to the day today

today we are 9th, three days back it was 50 years,

I was just going through the books.

One- 6th April 1965,

just before that there was a farewell party for you at that time. Yeah,

it was a very touching party given to me by IIT. Yes.

Dr. Mudaliar was present. Yes.

Sengupto was present. Yes.

The faculty and the students,

it was a very touching moment moment for me;

in fact I quoted the great Black Singer Barbara,

who was given a farewell function

when she said and she was requested to sing one song

from her earlier days,

she said that would be very making me very emotional.

She said of course, like said like this;

I cannot sing the old songs

that I sang a long time ago,

for heart and voice would fill me

and foolish tears would flow.

Sir, what I have read about you

were your command over English language was highly

recognized and respected by everybody. Yeah.

And your articles in the Annual Numbers about cricket. yeah cricket.

And other aspects also.

In fact, my first article was by team to Mars. Mars

with Richie Benaud as the captain. Yeah and then

then I had written about our balmy days at Brisbane. Yes yes.

All it Yeah it carried a an article.

Were you were you playing cricket as a student,

therefore you got very much interested? I used.

Or were you a theoretician? No.

I used to play, I was not very great in cricket;

but I lead the staff team against the students team for 5 years.

Oh, I see ok. I was, I was made the captain.

And we used to beat them. You win.

Because there were three faculty members who were very good. I see.

There was Shobanadrachari a very fast bowler,

then there Kasturi who was related to- no

what was his name, that Physics

he was a relative of the Indian fast bowler

Kasturi Rangan. Kastudi Rangan from Bangalore.

So, he was an off spinner. I see.

We had him Shobanadrachari to open, Ok.

and one or two others who were were who had played college cricket.

So, for I was particularly interested in three

forming a band for the IIT a cricket team and tennis.

And? Tennis.

Tennis, ok.

For we had a wonderful tennis player Lionel Paul. Lionel Paul, yes.

Who was the son of a former Director of the

Madras Engineering College. yes.

His son Lionel Paul, Yes.

who later went to Holland,

he was our champion.

So, as soon as you mentioned the IIT,

in the tennis circles they will say oh

Lionel Paul is a student. Ok.

And who do you think was his main opponent?

I do not know. None other then N. Srinivasan,

the Chairman of the IIT the ICC. Oh I see.

Who was head of the BCCI. Yeah,

N. Srinivasan. A very good tennis player.

I see from from another college in the-

And every match was watched by all of our students,

engineering college students

and at most of the time

Lionel Paul used to beat Srinivasan, who was a very good player.

Sir you were also there. In cricket-

Yes, I am sorry. you were asking me how was I interested in cricket.

Yes. My own nephew was a test player

V. V. Kumar. Oh I see

Vaman Vaman Kumar. Slow leg spin bowler. Yes yes.

In fact, I went for the match between India and Pakistan

and Kumar took 5 wickets in the first innings

and 3 wickets in the second innings. Yes.

He and Desai fast bowler. Ramakant Desai from Bombay.

Yeah. Yeah yeah.

So, our interest is- Ok very nice,

sir during that time, there were no big computers.

No. It came in 1973.

But we read about two small computers.

One German and one from IBM I think. American. America.

What can you give us some information about?

These small setups at that time.

And continuous beyond my camp.

So, because in our computer history we start from there. Yeah.

And finally 1973 only we got the IBM 370. Exactly.

When Professor A. Ramachandran. Yeah.

Sir what kind of memories you have about the visit of

three Germans who came here, one and ex president, President Hayse,

he came in 60.

Then in-office President Professor Luebke came in 62. Yeah.

And a future President Walter Scheel came in 63

and you were here at that time.

Absolutely I received them,

attended of them and they left very happy. Ok.

Dr. Luebke second. Yes.

Then he when the when Hayse

came, and Dr. Hayse came as former president. yes.

Yes. Dr. Hayes and Dr. Walter Scheel

was Economics Minister earlier. yes.

And he came also as visited later on as President.

Yes. In fact, Dr. Walter Scheel when we had all gathered at the

at the guesthouse, Taramani Guesthouse,

and we had our TV staff,

who were who were participating in that shoot, TV shoot.

And we served- I told Professor Sengupto

there is no point in giving them Coca Cola and

and German that those drinks

and- Yes.

And so, then I said what do you think we should give?

We should serve them tender coconut water

in the Yes. make a hole and give that put a straw in. Yes.

And it so fired the imagination of the

of Dr. Walter Scheel and all that, he said

he called the German TV crew and he said

please take photographs as we are drinking Yes.

the tender coconut water.

We have a very nice photograph of that.

This is one of the most valued photographs in my collection. Yeah, yeah.

A very interesting and another photograph where

he is standing near that fork Bonn Avenue and

Delhi Avenue fork we have taken a picture.

So, actually I thought at that time he came to name those two roads,

that is what those two roads;

it was not so obviously, it was already named earlier, yeah. Not at all.

Nothing to do. Yeah that is a

how the photograph that is what I was actually. No,

it was purely a I mean I shouldn't be saying it myself

and that was my concoction. Yes,

sir, how about I heard Professor Rukke when he came,

that was the also almost the inauguration of the OAT. Yeah.

That was the first function. Yeah.

It seems there was a big rain at that time and they had to clean it up. Yes,

what we had to do was,

we had the substitute indoor arrangement also ready. I see.

If the rain came, we wouldn't be handicapped;

but the rain got. Ok.

We did not have the rain.

Oh, you did not have the rain. No and the

stop gap arrangement we did not have to resort. Ok.

also you were there when the

stadium was inaugurated almost the first IIT meted Yeah.

but now Nawab of Pataudi on whom you have written an article.

I. On the. I. He was there.

I invited the Nawab of Pataudi to precide over first inter IIT sports meet,

because he was a good friend of mine. Oh I see.

So, and Pataudi himself became quite a good friend of mine.

Nice. After 3 days stay in our guest house.

Ok. We visited a Hollywood film at his request.

I see. Said Mr. Natarajan let us have a

visit a film and so, we went.

And the a at the end of the three visit as he was winding up his,

he was very happy with the visit.

And I told him, I think you must stay for two more days,

you have a hectic schedule awaiting you and in this

cool cathedral of greenery

and this will be the place to spend.

He said I would have gladly agreed,

but for the fact that your institute guesthouse

butler Gopal will completely

spoil my cricket career if I stay for two more days,

because the food is so good.

Very interesting.

And we chose Gopal personally. Ok.

Professor Sengupto and his friend went through all those

information about them

and then we went through the history and

Gopal was indeed a fine cook. Ok,

sir how about Gerhard Fischer who was the council- Professor Gerhard.

What were your interactions with him? Very very close

with a result; Dr. Gerhard Fischer

who was the Consul General for Germany there- Yes.

used to visit my house for dinner. Ok.

When he was Ambassador to Ireland. Oh ok.

That was the closeness of our association. Very close. Ok.

And then he was a great person in the sense

somehow causes used to excite him;

he will form trusts in Germany and divert those resource,

especially for leprosy patients. Yes.

He did a lot of work,

in fact in a place near my wife's town,

there is Fischer Block. Oh I see.

Which he donated. I see.

It was started by a an engineer,

who who had a paraplegic in an accident. I see.

Then he said I must do something,

I am an engineer who cannot be an engineer. Ok.

So, he opened that and it was a popular institution.

Sir, actually when Heritage Centre was being planned,

I wrote to him requesting him to give me some information.

And he said all the information photographs have handed

them over to the German government,

it may be very difficult to get it.

And I think soon after that he passed away.

No, not soon after that.

Sir 2008 or something. Yes.

That is what when the IIT centre was being planned. Yes.

That was. 2009 around the way,

he used to tell me about his troops to,

he died in Norway. I see he went there.

Sir, can you tell us a little bit more about Professor Sengupto?

We do not have much information about him, he is-

Professor Sengupto was a very good Mechanical Engineer,

he was King's Prize winner in Mechanical Engineering

and he was the Principal of VTI

Victoria Technical Institute of Bombay's, Yes.

which benefit benefited greatly from his rich experience.

And so, the Government of India rightly thought

that Professor Sengupto should head the IIT Madras;

remembering that Sudi Ranjan Sengupto,

not a relation of his was already the

Director of the IIT. IISc Bangalore.

Kharagpur. Oh I am sorry Kharahpur, ok.

Kharagpur. Sudi Ranjan.

And Brigadier Bose was the third of the Bengals of Bombay. S. K. Bose. Yes

Professor Brigadier Bose was the Director of IIT Kharagpur,

when I went there as a postgraduate student in 1969. In Bombay.

No, he was an in IIT Kharagpur.

IIT Kharagpur. He is from there he came.

Sir how about Mrs. Shanthi the-

Mrs. Shanthi. the first lady of the campus.

Mrs. Shanthi was a gift to us,

because as the first lady of the campus, Yeah.

she was very social,

she did not have any airs about her

and she was a particularly good friend of my wife. Ok.

They used to get along famously Shanthi Sengupto;

in fact years after years retired from the IIT,

Shanthi Sengupto and Professor Sengupto

wanted to go to the Thirupati temple.

So, I said no problem at all, come over

and we took them- I see.

to Thirupati and then after prayers and all that,

I told them on one condition

we must, you must visit and stay in my wife's place,

because Kutralam is there. Kutralam.

Waterfalls and Shenkottai is only 3 miles from. Ok.

So, that balmy climate we have at Shenkottai

and of course it was very- he knew it after having

spent 5 and half years with me,

that he could not look forward to a fish meal,

because we were pure vegetarian. Ok.

And with this connection I want to

relate to you a very funny situation. Yes.

When I visited the IIT Kharagpur,

he asked me what will you have?

I said any vegetarian meal,

I can give you the best of fish, freshwater fish.

Then I told him I can't take fish,

but he said I am a Brahmin,

I take fish that is the custom there. Yes.

But we I can not take fish.

So, when he came to Madras,

I took him to Quality Restaurant- Ok.

which was the very good place and then I asked him

and I had not known that fine distinction,

because when I asked him you must have tandoori chicken

which is the best that you can have they say.

So, you must have tandoori chicken.

He said sir I am a Brahmin, I cannot take chicken. Ok.

Then I told him you were taking fish there.

So, I thought you take it no problem.

I think they are called Matsya Brahmanas. Yes.

They are entitled to- Matsya.

Because which-

They are allowed. Other.

And in fact, you will be surprised to know

that in Bihari thread ceremony,

they have to serve a meat. I see.

Bihari. Yeah local custom tradition.

I knew because,

he was my sister’s tenant. Ok.

So, he invited all for every thing was vegetarian, but this

he then he told me this is not for you. Ok.

But then it is a custom here for the Bihari.

Sir when you joined then,

where you staying; there were no buildings yet,

they started coming up later BSB first came up,

then the quarters? I had my own bunglow,

my 11 grounds bungalow built by my father 30 years earlier.

Where was it? On the Royapettah High Road.

I see. Where you now have 3,

3 level grounds I see, they have this

Murali Nursing Home, Ok.

Bank of Baroda and Mali Motors. Ok.

Nice green place.

So, all all during your entire tenure you were only living there,

you did not come into the campus at all?

I did not come in come to the campus, because there was no need. Ok,

how about Professor Sengupto and others?

And if I take a place, I will be depriving somebody of a place. Ok

and you were driving your black Fiat.

Originally blue Fiat and

then the black Fiat and then the Ambassador,

but I always had a driver. Ok

the very- I would not drive.

You. The IIT gave me a driver.

Oh I see. But in government, they gave both the driver and the car.

Ok as an IAS officer.

And and yeah at the IIT, I had my car with an IIT driver.

Sir in that connection can I ask you,

what do you think looking back and now what is happening?

IITs should they have or what are the advantages of having an IAS

trained person as a Registrar or head of the administration unit?

Are there any specific advantages?

Kindly repeat the question.

In IIT Madras and many other IITs, Registrars

as administrative heads are not necessarily IAS officers. No no.

But do you think you are the first IAS officer, first Registrar;

so there were certain advantages or?

I think it was many advantageous not only to the IIT,

but also to me. To you also.

It expanded my mental horizon. Ok.

And as far as administration was concerned,

recruiting the best personnel and all that.

And my previous administrative experience, I hope

was was a great advantage to the IIT.

After you Mr. C. V. Sethunathan came. Was there for one year.

As the Registrar. And then he was transferred to some other duties.

Oh I see he did not continue.

He did not continue as Registrar,

I think he was there for one and a half years. Oh I see.

And then he was shifted.

Sir there are several articles in our Annual Numbers,

you have been you were very popular with

almost everybody in the campus.

So, they said you are very popular especially with the students,

you had a great sense of humor

and felicity with your English language, the command over the language,

this is how you are described I mean, youthful appearance,

shock up hair, boyish smile,

a bridge between head of the institution

and the other working elements of the institute,

of course you also coined that sentence IITM is a tale of three cities.

So, how did this happen that,

what according to you what qualities characteristics of yours

made you so popular among all the sections of the institute?

You see all this is a compound result. Yeah.

You see they judge you by your intentions and actions.

Yes. I got I was only 30. Yes.

So, I got into this spirit of things

and I garnered a lot of experience in administration.

See so it was easy for me to glide into

and I am a basically a happy person. Ok.

So, it reflected its self in my relations with the teacher,

the faculty, with the students;

in fact I would when I wanted them to- if the students ask me,

how should we name our first band,

I suggested Rhythm Rascals.

Rhythm rascals. Rhythm rascals,

but finally, then we decided later on we would not have that. Ok,

actually sir here in one of the introductions to you it says,

Mr. Natarajan’s popularity can be gauged

from the fact that he is almost triumphantly carried

on the shoulders of the students,

who have nothing to gain from him from the point of view of

periodicals or leave,

whenever he comes into the institute, this is the kind of

admiration respect love that students- Love.

that students had. Because they knew that I was a

I was for them, I was for the faculty,

I was for the students and I had a great association with

Professor Sengupto and engineering staff;

because ultimately you have to be transparent. Yes.

You have to be transparent in your actions and

I wanted to do the best for all of them.

You see it is only anything can be achieved in life with kindness,

detachment and giving.

Absolutely. And take a positive approach. Yes,

you have done that in abundance, therefore you were remembered

Yeah. by those students and we always remember you

after going through- You see even now you will always come,

invite me and all that. Yes that,

in fact Mr. Kumaran wanted that thing,

even after retired you have had

continuous association with IIT Madras. Exactly that I came

from Shenkottai to preside over the hostel day. Ok.

At Cauvery I had arrived in the morning,

just for this and I was invited to preside over the

Cauvery Hostel day and then I told them,

what is the difference between Einstein

and another famous politician here. Ok.

What is the difference?

Then then I told them myself,

to Einstein everything was relative,

but for this politician for relatives were everything.

They had a hearty laugh. Very nice you have putting it.

Ok, go ahead.

Welcome to. Because I have some more.

I really like know what were your most

cherished memories of IITs,

because I know you enjoyed your tenure.

I completely enjoyed.

Anything specific you tell. There was some funny instances.

Yes. One example, in the at the dinner Dr. Koch

from the IIT had joined as the Professor of Physics about Yes.

8 months earlier,

there was a dinner at the IIT

and there was a Assistant Professor Ram Mohan Rao,

who was an Andhra gentleman,

who used to give me always every year

that royal rajahmundry avakai pickle. Ok.

Before which even a Napoleon will quail.

So, for not that dinner must be on a small thing that red thing.

Koch asked me what is it that you are going to have,

but you are not giving me,

said I am doing it wantedly,

because that will set you on fire. Yes.

It is too hot. Yes.

You can not manage it.

He said what an Indian can manage,

cannot a German manage too? Ok.

Then would you like to, seriously would you like to test it?

I gave it to him, he took it;

he is very fair person you know

and his eye had big eyes,

the whole him became a definition of redness.

He could not spit it out or send it in.

To be very embarrassed. Red and all that,

then I doused it you;

say take that gave him ice water

and then I hope I told him,

you have another 4 years to go,

never go near that.

He was the first.

Very funny moments with them. First time.

And a Dr. was Dr. Werner Haug that Applies Mechanics man,

he he was a always a grumpy individual,

unlike Nicholas Klein or Koch. Koch. Or Dr. Haan,

he he would everything no no this is not good,

that is not good you know in Germany;

this would be I had visited Germany thrice,

I knew what Germany was.

And I told him that is why you are here.

Why are you being sent to the India by

the German government? Government.

To help us in setting up a nice place.

And so, there are some differences here,

that is why we had invited you over.

One of it is this Haug met me

and told me,

your your sanction has not come from the Indian Government

as, so there is been extraordinary delay,

this will never happen in a place like Germany.

I told him I am not that sure, because governments are governments,

governments and- usually they take a longer time

and others in doing the same thing.

And to me I suppose I mean no offence when I tell you

that, your government also must be

having occasions when they have delayed.

No no no it will never happen in Germany.

Then after a month and half,

he came to me with proposals for that

Applied Mechanics Laboratory

and he said I want to discuss it with the Professor Sengupto.

So, when do we meet?

I asked him,

you have not been accredited to the IIT Madras.

I see. You see your term,

you have already extended your term of deputation by a month.

So, I will be talking only as Mr. Natarajan

to Dr. Werner Haug,

because your accreditation has not come.

And you said the German government

was the paragon of virtue and good grace,

this is with regard to your accreditation itself.

I can't deal with you.

Then he say yes I agree that all governments delay.

Sir overall how was this German professors who came with their families,

how did they integrate into?

They were very good, there was not too much of reaction,

but we had our funny moments,

for example, Ebert. Yeah yeah

Who set up the workshop? Who set up the workshop,

we had attended a party

given by the German Consul General.

Ebert was there, that was a very affable

person along with Ebert, Hassenbein.

Willi Hassenbein. Hassenbein. Yes.

Then Heinz Sohre.

And Ebert and I we have gone for and for the party.

Of course how can we expect the German party

without the whiskey flowing all the time. Yes.

And Ebert was with me,

then I used to take orange juice first,

then after some time,

because the dinner will be at 10:30 or later. Yes.

Because they were binging.

And I was killing my appetite,

because after half an hour with them I will be taking pineapple

juice and another half an hour later another a grape juice.

So, it was yeah it was really, I was I knew I was getting into trouble.

And Ebert was going on merrily,

all the people German professors and all.

And then I excused myself from the dinner,

because you have already tit bits cheese

things and all. Even now the same- Cutlets.

So, I told Fischer

I already had my dinner,

it was a wonderful party.

So, I must have your permission,

he said certainly and then the next day

a bleary eyed Ebert came into my room.

I said- asked Ebert straightaway

when did you return home?

Yeah that the question is not phrased properly sir,

you must ask me when was I returned home.

I did't return home,

I was returned home.

Such was the binge. Ok.

It was fun, Dr. Wolfgang Scheer. Scheer.

He they all thought he was queer.

Scheer was queer.

No, he was a very warm person.

Ok, we had occasion to interview him

when he came for the golden jubilee and also Mr. Ebert.

He married again, Ethiopian wife. I see.

[Inaudible]

Sir, how about Mr. C. Subramaniam?

We understand from what we have said probably,

when the question of starting the IIT came up,

first of all where north, south, east, west was one thing.

Kamaraj. Then it was south,

then Madras and then Kamaraj.

So, what we have read is that Mr. C. Subramaniam

and may be Professor Mr. R. Venkataraman

they kind of filled up with Mr. Kamaraj. No no no no.

And said it is a good idea, we should get into IIT Madras. C. Subramaniam

was more involved with it. Yeah.

And he used to be guide,

he was the Education Minister. Yes.

Venkataraman was industry.

He was not in the position. Subramanian,

Subramanian was a very dynamic minister,

he was always thinking of the country

and the state and what he can do,

even after retirement. Yes.

I knew him personally. Yes.

And C. Subramaniam worked actively

and Dr. Mudaliar. Mudaliar.

And Mudaliar had got good connections with government,

incidentally how was the IIT Kharagpur born?

Yes sir, please let us know what is your,

what is your information on that.

Because Dr. B. C. Roy the Chief Minister of West Bengal

was very close to Pandit Nehru. Yes.

And soon as the Sarkar Committee report and all that was accepted,

he met the met Prime Minister Nehru

and told him Kharagpur must having the first priority.

So, he said it shall be there, it was Kharagpur.

And IIT we took we were the quickest in reaction,

we set 640 acres are there. yes sir yes sir

We were quicker than the others who were all going about- Yes.

looking for land and all that,

but IIT say here is the place.

Was there some kind of opposition in Madras

either government circles or civil society about having IIT

in this beautiful wooded area,

was was there? There was no objection at all.

Because they were being disturbed, their flora and fauna

would be disturbed. No, it was a it was a detached from the Raj Bhavan.

It was not any public land of found reserve forest area,

it was part of forest attached to the Raj Bhavan.

Yeah. So, there was not that objection,

then the IIT was a big bonus to Madras. Yes.

Yes. But there was not any objection.

Because what we did is some other cities in South India were trying,

as you said Mr. Kamaraj was the first one to offer.

Now, as you know Karnataka is going to have an IIT this year,

now. Yeah.

So, 60 years back we were we understand that somehow in Bangalore

they did not want IIT, because IISc was there.

Indian yeah IISc was there.

Now, they are planning one for Karnataka. And then Delhi got it.

Yes Delhi got it.

Sir this is sir there there were this Annual Numbers,

every year this were and your articles appeared.

So, I just wanted to show you, do you.

This was the farewell. Yes.

So, I just thought I do not know

whether you have those photographs with you.

I do not have that,

but you have given me the Campaschimes. Yeah Campaschimes.

Yes, yes, yes.

In the next page also there are couple of photographs.

Yes. And think in fact your speech your speech also is there called

A Garland of Memories.

So, I just thought I would show it to you

and ask you how how do you feel about now when you are-

this almost 50 years back,

I think your farewell was on the last week of March I think. Yeah.

And there you said in the next few days

I do not know how I go back to my, you know-

I can not get it back into my office,

I will be a visitor here rather than occupying chair.

That was very very touching memory that actually.

Also here is

so, about you in these two consecutive Numbers,

there are references to you.

This is actually the the gift is handed over to my daughter Priya.

That is oh yeah- The Child.

And I had my first child born when I was in IIT. Ok,

very nice, one minute.

Sampath, Professor Krishna Murthy, engineer-

Yes sir there are many photographs with you;

see this is Nawab Nawab of Pataudi inaugurating.

Yes. And actually I would like to;

if you do not mind, I will take this. Yeah.

What happened to that?

Sir would you tell us about the first convocation,

you were there at that time, Professor Radhakrishnan.

That was the first batch of students who were graduating,

so how how was the atmosphere, how were the ambience

how were you involved?

The atmosphere was very serious since then.

There were sombre thing on the first convocation ever.

And so, there was a certain mystical element about it

and it went through very efficiently without a hitch,

because Professor Sengupto and I

had been in IIT Kharagpur

to watch a convocation. I see.

So, we came fully fortified.

With the purpose of finding how this is done. How it is done.

2 years earlier.

Yes sir. And we then interacted with the Russian professors there,

the actual mechanics of the convocation.

So, we were not daunted.

And here was a president, philosopher, statesman. Great.

Obviously, sir you are also at the time of inauguration when you here?

You joined in June of 1959. Of course,

I will right there. So, where was it actually held?

That was held in a shamiyana.

In CLRI. Not in the CLRI,

in the campus. In the campus itself.

Unfortunately we do not have photographs of that also.

But you have got that foundation stone. Foundation stone we have,

so you had already joined in June of 59?

I joined in July 59. July ok.

So, the hostels were inaugurated by L. S. Chandrakanth on 28th.

Classes started on 22nd July. Yeah.

In A.C. College of Technology. A.C. College.

But the offices were in CLRI. And also in the Highways Research.

Highways Research also. Also.

And then the inauguartion was actually on 31st July 19-

I was very much there.

And Professor Humayun Kabir. Humayun Kabir.

For reasons best known to him,

he would always stay at the Hotel Oceanic.

Oh Santhome High Road. Santhome. Ok,

Professor Humayun Kabir actually is

later later related to George Fernandez.

His daughter married George Fernandez. Yeah I think so.

I do not know. Like of man this.

We do not have much information of especially

photographs of the inauguration,

so I was just wondering how that was.

Yes, by in large we have tried to cover,

here the first convocation.

Second convocation you were there and

immediately after that you,

it was third April 1960, M. C. Chagla.

Yeah. And I think you left on 6th April.

So, you participated in. Second of convocation. Second convocation also.

Very nice sir.

Sir since retirement, so what have you been doing,

how are you otherwise engaged?

I have been, I have been member of several boards

of institutions and then I live like there is no

Rotary Club or Lions Club which I have not visited, ok.

They I used to go there

and the member of the Board of Directors for two institutions

and then my three of my grand children are here.

I see. My daughter was in the USA for 18 years,

I made her come down here. Oh I see.

They built a house, rise house there and

so, nothing great,

no stronger sense of happiness

than being with your grand children.

In fact, I told my daughter and son-in-law

they may be your children,

but the priority always goes to the grand parents.

Absolutely. So, you must shift from the USA and come here.

Sir now you look back, you have

you you made made the beginnings for IIT Madras for 6 years;

almost most of the infrastructure was developed at that time.

Sharawati sorry Sarayu had not come up,

it came up slightly- slightly later. Which?

The ladies hostel.

That Mandakini. 60s no sir, I think Mandakini-

Professor Mandakini was the hostel for the first year students.

Sarayu was the girl’s hostel.

And there were very few girl students in the beginning

so, yeah maybe they came from outside.

And later the Sarayu hostel started.

So, the post office was there,

the bank everything was done by almost by the time tenural. Bank everything we have introduced.

the faculty had moved in. Not only that,

I had requested Reverend Father Murphy.

And told him I want your help for starting the Vanavani School. Ok.

So, Father Murphy very kindly-

Excuse me who was Father Murphy at that time?

He was at Professor of Loyola of college. I see.

And later professor or principle of Loyola for instance.

He taught French.

He though French at Loyola.

No, you mean French language. Yes.

He taught French.

He no, he taught English.

English. Yeah.

He was an Irish. I see.

Who taught the English Father Murphy. Right.

And there were many french men too,

there was Father Sauliere,

there was Father [inaudible].

In the Loyola College. And in Loyola College

and that well known mathematician

he was there and I studied in Loyola College for the intern.

I see. I stayed at the Loyola hostel. Ok.

Done my intermediate examination.

So, I knew all this to Father Murphy and all that,

and I had this I must say,

I had stood first in our history

and so Father D'Souza and Murphy said

why should you leave Loyola,

you can take up economics honors.

Then I said no, because we by I have put our heads together

and said the balance of advantage for writing the IAS examination

is with the history honors.

Oh you have already decided you will go for IAS?

Then go for IAS,

but that was the Holy Grail in those days. I see.

And in fact, we have got some doctors in the IAS,

so many engineers in the IAS.

Sir now in the past few years, IITians are also going IAS. IITians are going into-

You think that is a good thing.

That is a I will call it a waste.

Waste of talent,

because you have denied some person a seat in the medical college

and then you joined the IAS,

you have deprived the person of a seat.

He would have at least been an engineer or a doctor.

Ok, I am sorry continue you are saying something.

So, like this I do not subscribe to.

Well, ok. Yeah.

Anything more about the Vana Vani you were mentioning?

Yeah and he was Dr. Father Murphy was very helpful;

he went around and then we had the Vana Vani School started

and he got the first headmistress too.

And she was very dedicated to the work

and the Vanavani is almost as famous as the IIT now.

By association. Yes right.

Sir, so now, you look back what do you think,

what is your perception

about IIT Madras in particular, the IIT system,

have they achieved their goal?

Certainly, otherwise you won't be having

institutes splitting up as if by magic.

See if if it was a bad concept,

it would have gone, disappeared.

But now there is a clamour for IITs for all over,

Narendra Modi our prime minister is very particular.

More IITs. And you remember our first Prime Minister Nehru said

that, we have had enough and more of tempos,

the new tempo should be higher education institutions. Education.

And science.

So, we want more and more of the IITs,

but the trouble, the point is we should concentrate

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