Prof. Ashok Jhunjhunwala in conversation with Prof. Devendra Jalihal Episode 1 Part 2 of 3.
Was the expectation out of a young faculty then…
was it told to you that you know, you have to publish papers,
you have to do projects, because
these days when a young person comes,
and joins, there are lot more expectations.
You know out of the…yeah.
There was no expectation from me,
except that I have to teach this course,
because there is no one to teach this course.
In fact, I went with a list of courses
that I could easily teach.
I went to Professor Rajappan, gave them…
he says, “This does not belong to your section, this does not belong.”
In fact, and say, “Oh come on, no don’t worry about
it, whatever we will give you, you learn and teach.”
Um…department was very different.
Prof. Jalihal: Was the classification very strict, very strict? Prof. Jhunjhunwala: Very strong classification,
Prof. Jhunjhunwala: though I was able to cut in for my doing work,
Prof. Jhunjhunwala: but well digital also was new, there was not strong…
Prof. Jhunjhunwala: so I was allowed to teach Communication,
Prof. Jhunjhunwala: I was allowed to teach Electromagnetics
Prof. Jhunjhunwala: and Surface Acoustic Wave Devices I started teaching.
Prof. Jhunjhunwala: There is not strong faculty.
Actually I soon found out,
that in our department,
we had a strong power and instrumentation sections.
Professor V. G. K. Murti, Kuppurajulu,
Professor Narayana Rao very good,
Professor V. V. Sastry, the…
what is called Electronic Sections
are not that strong. Yeah,
Professor Radhakrishnan was there in Circuits,
and Anthony Reddy. Rest was alright.
Achuthan was there in Devices,
didn't do too much in Devices,
Communication…V. V. Rao was there individually very strong,
but there was no strong group of faculty in any of them.
Digital Circuits we hardly had anything.
That time, our department used to give 2 degrees undergraduate:
Power and Electronics, and of course later on I try…
helped in integrating, that was a tough battle.
But here, I was actually learning a lot of things
and for the first time I had some confidence
that we can build few things.
So I have met some students,
sorry, of…of that period; you know, mid ‘80s
who were in the Power,
but felt that if they
had taken courses in Communication or Devices,
because I met many people in the US
who were from the Power,
but they take…took courses in Devices,
so that they could apply, and so, you know
that was some kind of an artificial…
Yeah, it was not easy.
Prof. Jalihal: Yeah. Prof. Jhunjhunwala: But a few of them worked with me,
so working-wise in the projects, etcetera,
there was not as strong a restriction,
so a number of them worked with me.
Now one of the thing that…I at the meantime,
two things else was happening:
one was this group that…when I came in and
Mukundan had mentioned to me
a group called Patriotic and People Oriented
Science and Technology; PPST.
I became a strong part of this group,
in fact, by and large that was operating from my home.
This was a group of scientists.
There are few from IIT, not too many; myself,
Mukundan used to be a Scientific Officer at IIT Madras,
Professor B. Viswanathan from Chemistry Department.
But there were number of other people:
Professor M. D. Srinivas,
Professor M. S. Sriram, Bajaj,
Professor C. N. Krishnan who was undergraduate student here,
and taught at Chromepet.
Number of them…we used to form together…
we are all concerned about India,
and we started looking at what is happening
with science and technology in India.
And we soon started looking at…came across
a work of one Shri Dharampal Ji.
His work was very fascinating.
His work was that…
till 18th Century, India was a very developed country.
And not just developed
in ordinary man…it…may…way, it was a
very good science and technology,
which came to us as a surprise,
because we have never heard of science and technology in India,
and that too in 18th century or before.
But 18th century, enough work he had done;
number of books, number of things
where science and technology…
he showed the science and technology flourished.
And we started getting connected to that, doing work,
trying to figure out what kind of learning
and all of this seems to have been destroyed,
not by Mughals, but by actually Britishers.
Prof. Jalihal: Yes, yes, yes, yes.
And by the time of independence all of this had gone.
Dharampal Ji himself had taken…was a disciple of Mahatma Gandhi.
Apparently Mahatma Gandhi in number of his speeches
had talked about India of 18th century and the past,
and had talked about how we are very strong.
And Dharampal Ji had pursued work
largely in archives in…in India and in Great Britain,
trying to actually cull out the information about India of 1730, 1750, 1770
and gave us a very good picture.
So I used to spend considerable time
on that. Most of my evenings I used to work
on that, used to spend a lot of time.
The second thing, since I was at IIT Madras,
I sort of say, might as well look at the industry.
Now, how do you look at the industry?
Apparently IIT had no connection with industry,
our department practically had no connection.
There were some defence projects.
Well, some projects were there,
but I also soon realized
Professor Narasimhan was doing…I worked with him,
Professor Raina was doing,
I was working with him.
But I soon realized that
nothing was going to go all the way to function and production.
But ICSR was there.
ICSR was not there.
Was not there.
There was some office, don't remember the name,
but what happened; I had a
few connections because of my family with some industry.
So I remember, since I was engineer, an electronics engineer,
I went to Calcutta and
one of my uncle used to be a part of a company,
and one day he told me, “Ashok,
I have this big machine which I imported,
and it is not functioning.”
So I had gone with him
to try to see that machine,
at least figured out enough, had no idea,
that what was happening, and what was wrong.
I had kind of pointed out
what was wrong.
I had gone to another relatives of ours,
and I had figured out that if we could change the process,
using something, because you remember that micro
mouse that had given me, I
had some confidence that some things can be done.
I told him what can be done to really improve his productivity.
Soon, little bit of things like this,
even some of the Chennai based industrialist
got to know and here and there I’ll get opportunity
to visit some of the industry,
And I will see that.
I was actually very disappointed.
This was a period, you know, to understand the industry,
you also need to understand India a bit,
and I am going to go back and tell you a little bit…
a few little experience of mine at early period.
When I came here, I wanted to buy a 2 wheeler,
a scooter, I had just about enough money
to buy a 2 wheeler scooter.
As such in this campus, a 2 wheeler will be very, very useful.
Beautiful campus full of greenery,
deers, 2 wheeler will be very useful,
enable me to move around very quickly.
And somebody told me Bajaj Chetak is very good.
So I went and saw in the…
in a shop…in a showroom of theirs, Bajaj Chetak, liked that.
They told me about the prices and they told
me a special offer, I said, “I will buy that.”
They told me to…they were going through everything and
got me to select the colour, did everything
and even I gave them the cheque.
And I told them, “When can I pick it up?
Or when it’ll be delivered?”
The person looked at me
and said, “Sir, you will be in a queue.”
So I said, “Well, how long will I have to wait? 15 days, month?”
“Sir, no sir, our waiting queue is 4 years.”
I was taken aback,
I couldn't believe…
you have money to buy a scooter, it takes 4 years.
Soon I realized that that was India.
There was of course, I figured out later, after some time,
through a friend of mine,
through a student friend of mine.
Prof. Jalihal: If you take foreign exchange… Prof. Jhunjhunwala: That if you had a…
played in foreign exchange, you can get it
soon. Unfortunately, I had
spent all my foreign exchange,
I didn’t have any,
but there was a defence student of ours; Rajesh Sanghi
who later became my Ph.D. student. I will talk about it.
He said that, “Sir, but if you have receipt, we can still do it.”
I fortunately had the receipt,
he went, booked it, I got the scooter in 6 months.
Actually I had paid…done receipt for 1000,
so he actually got two scooter: one for himself and one for myself.
And in my mind it was…I was wondering, “Why…if there is a demand
why cannot scooter be produced? Why should there be a waiting list?”
And it was not about scooter only.
I wanted to get a
gas cylinder for my home.
I went to a place where gas cylinder booking is done.
There was an old man,
and I told him, “I have come here for booking.”
He says, “When was your booking done?”
I says, “No, I have not done the booking.”
“So you have never done the booking?”
“Your parents have not done the booking?”
Says, “No, I have coming to Madras for the first time.”
No, he looked at me,
he brought out some old…some
ledger, asked me to write down,
and he very softly told me,
“Sir, I do not think that you are going to get it in your lifetime.
But still do it, this will benefit your children.”
The currently…the people who are getting, are the people
who got…whose parents had booked it for them.
And one of the best marriage gift that I got
later on, was one of my friend,
Dr. Krishnan’s wife walked in with her gas cylinder.
She had 2 gas cylinder.
If you had 2 gas cylinder,
you can gift 1 gas cylinder to somebody else.
Now 2 gas cylinder is so that
when one runs out, you can use the other one,
but if you are left with one gas cylinder, you can apply for
a second gas cylinder, and you can get it.
So these…all these loopholes existed
and long waiting list for everything.
There was nothing that was easily available.
So we realized that our industry
was not even able to produce enough for the demand.
And in my early interaction with industry, I
soon figured out why.
There was practically no technology development work done
in any of these industry.
Everything was just
tech…imported technology,
where they got complete technology,
they will get all the parts,
they will just assemble and supply.
And, of course they would get decent margin,
later got to know that
you need a license to manufacture, and
limited licenses were available.
So they were…whether it was a telephone…
I…I uhm…so not just scooter, and I think
before that I should talk about this telephone.
Because telephone will play a very important role.
I was here, my parents were in Calcutta
and one of the first thing that we had decided, we will get a telephone.
When I came here, I was told that to get a telephone
in Chennai the third largest…in Madras,
the third largest city in India at IIT Madras,
it is a long waiting list.
And it took me 8 years to get a telephone.
And it did really bite me;
a lot of my work in telecom actually
came from that experience.
But basically what I found was that industry
was just not ready;
not there to move things along. Industry
produced limited extent, their licenses and all that.
It is this which my work at IIT Madras.
Prof. Jalihal: So… Prof. Jhunjhunwala: There was a interesting incident,
it just happened to be in chance.
I happen…had happened to visit a factory,
by now enough undergraduate students were working with me.
I happened to visit an industry and figure out…
they were making a power line
carrier communication equipment; WS Industries.
They were also importing technology, they were making it,
they were selling equipment.
Close to a lakh, 10000 rupees per unit.
I had understood that, because by that time
I had…my knowledge of communication and
systems had kind of prompted that
what was it doing. I understood that well.
There was a lecture in the city,
under the banner of I think IET,
and they had invited me to give a talk,
and I talked about that how our industry is importing everything.
And I gave example…for example,
how this company, I didn't name it,
was actually importing every component of power line
carrier communication and making it and selling at a lakh 12,000 rupees.
There’s no R and D getting done.
If that industry gave me one lakh rupees,
I will develop the whole technology
for them and give it to them in 1 year.
Full system I will design, develop and transfer it to them.
I made that statement,
a newspaper apparently published this. Indian Express, I think,
don’t remember…and a day later I get a call,
from the Chairman Managing Director of the Company.
I was little worried that…
I had not named them, but still.
He says he was, “Why do not you visit me?”
So I went and met him I had already seen part of his plant.
He says, “Ashok are you serious that you can with
1,00,000 rupee you can actually make it?”
I said, “I think I can.”
And I gave him that these are the blocks,
and this is what this block has.
He pulled out a cheque,
wrote down 1,00,000 rupees and gave it to me.
Was your first project on industry?
From first project from industry,
a lakh rupees will be equivalent to almost a crore rupees now.
Prof. Jalihal: Yeah, yeah. Prof. Jhunjhunwala: And here, he betted me,
hardly knew me, and he got one of his staff
who was in R and D…
was helping in translating the…into production,
say associate with him. I was taken aback.
I had no clue what to do,
but here I had industry project,
came back with a cheque.
I had something like 14 undergraduate students
working on it in Laser Communication Lab in ESB for 1 year.
Big table, they are making pieces and pieces and pieces.
People used to work whole night,
and we got guidance from this
industry person. Some guidance, not enough.
At the end of one year,
we are able to demonstrate of working prototype.
But this was very different from what I had promised.
I had said, “I will get the technology ready for you to manufacture.”
Will this be reliable? Certainly not
it used to work, it used to take us 20-25 minutes
to get that to work, and it will work for 10-15 minutes and it will fail.
Something which will work 24 by 7, no way
something which could be manufactured, no way,
something which will be cost optimum
and people will make money, we had no clue.
But we had done that much.
I was feeling little bit guilty,
and I got a call from the Chairman of the company
and he said he wants to visit us.
He says that, “I am told that you have a working prototype ready,”
and I was very apologetic and he came,
I started with my apology and all that,
he came, he saw it, he seemed to be very happy.
His money was spent by that time. Components…
undergraduate students are working as…
probably not even paying them.
Um, he was quite happy, and he said, “Ashok, very happy,
you have done the job. Huge confidence…we will…
you just send this whole thing to me now, to my factory.”
I said, “Yes, but it is unreliable.” “It doesn't matter!”
“Sir, I don’t know whether you can ever
make money by producing it.”
“It’s alright, send it to me.”
The whole thing was shifted, project was closed.
About 2-3 months down the line, one day I get a call,
“Ashok I have some people visiting
about this project, why don't you come?”
I go there, I land up in a meeting with him, with 3 people.
I think they were from Canada,
I am not sure, they could be from United States,
from the company from which he was importing.
And he was having a chat with them, I walked in,
and he introduced me, “Here is doctors…Dr. Jhunjhunwala,
he came from United States
and he knows everything…technology wizard,” this that…
and I was feeling very…”And he has actually
developed this power line career communication completely from scratch,
on his own, and I am going to produce that in next 3 months.”
He went into a great pitch that this
will reduce my cost. “You are giving me at 85-80,000 rupees,
this will reduce my cost to around 30-35,000 rupees.”
And it’s ready! A few times I try to
open up and he will indicate to me
I should just keep quiet, watching.
And then he took them outside say, “I will show you,”
and there was on a table, this whole thing put,
in a glass case, and glass case was removed,
and sure! Little bit working, just like what we had done in the lab.
These people asked me a few questions,
and I knew enough about them, I could explain them.
By now, I knew that I don't need to speak more than that.
So, he went on to say that,
“So I am going to produce this, I have to
discontinue this product…import from you. Too bad,
but other products I will continue.”
By the end of the day, he had signed with them
to import the components of their design at 35,000 rupees.
Prof. Jalihal: Half the cost. Prof. Jhunjhunwala: At less than half the cost.
1,00,000 he spent only.
So he of course, brought down the price,
from a lakh ten, to close to 90,
and its volume grew like anything.
First time I realized that different facets of technology development,
and I realized the mind of a entrepreneur, and industrialists,
and I do not even have to really make something which is fully ready.
The very fact that I can do that, that threat is enough,
and our industrialists are smart enough to know…bargain
that at least it will be now imported at a lower price,
you will get better prices because you have something.
You know it is interesting that you say it,
because in 1987, was the 40th year of independence
and we had organized that in Toronto and
a very famous constitution lawyer Nani Palkhivala came and gave a talk.
You know with a big audience.
There he said, “Indian businessmen are so smart,
they can buy from Irishmen, sell it to a Jew, still make a profit.”
I mean…Irishmen and Jew are supposed to be very…you know
good with money so he says,
Prof. Jalihal: “But you know, something is holding back.”
So…so it’s very interesting that we…you know,
Prof. Jalihal: we are talking about the same period now 1840…1987, yeah.
So…but I learnt and I…this very fact that
technology…even the start of technology development
can empower us in many, many manner.
First, our undergraduate students who actually did that,
they were different. Very different from what…
earlier these people were there.
Some of them even decided to stay back in India,
otherwise rest…everybody was going abroad.
They actually learn to build things.
I learnt in the process. Industry…the person who worked…worked with
industry: Venkata Subramanyam, he start…became a very close friend.
In industry I had a huge reputation by now. All over.
I used to keep on getting calls from different industrialists,
most of the time to fix the machine.
And I had no clue what these machines were,
they are all imported; they said, “If you have to
call the technicians from there, it will cost us
Prof. Jalihal: Lot of money. Prof. Jhunjhunwala: tons of money.”
And I said, “What do you do with the industry…with the machine
if you don't call?” Says, “Well, it’s a loss,
you leave it.” And I will go with my…
our undergraduate student sometime
with our Master’s and I even had a
Ph.D. student Krishna Thilakam;
she was good, she had come from ITI,
she knew little more circuits than many of us used to know.
And, we would go there and occasionally even fix the machine.
Even our own Institute, people used to call us
and occasionally we will fix big machines.
Simple small electronic fault we may be able to repair,
it gave us a huge confidence
that we can do things industrialists were using, and
this was my first industry-academia interaction.
- Contribute
to the Centre -
Monetary
Support 
Digital
Material
