Prof. C.S. Swamy in conversation with Prof. B. Viswanathan

I would like to know, where you are born?

When you are born and about your schooling?

Ok, I was born in 1941

in a small village called Kuthanoor,

where the only...the Goddess Saraswathi's

temple is there in India.

This is in in the in the erstwhile Tanjore district.

But my father was living in a village

called Nachiyar Kovil, this is very near to Kumbakonam.

I studied all my school education in Nachiyar Kovil.

And then, from that I...went to Saint Joseph’s College, Trichy,

I did the M. Sc. up to that M. Sc.

I did in Saint Joseph’s College, Trichy. And then.

Then the Ph. D. in IIT. Yeah, yeah

See, the Saint Joseph’s College,

were you staying in a hostel or in? Yeah,

that is the...in those days, there were two hostels,

Clive’s Hostel and New Hostel.

Yes, yes. Clive’s Hostel is famous, and I was living in a room

called 93 because, 93 is traditionally

all my family members have lived there. I see.

My...my uncle is a Professor in Saint Joseph’s College,

he also studied in Saint Joseph’s College. Nice.

So, that is...the how, we came...and my brother also studied. Yeah.

In Saint Joseph’s in...he stayed in the same room,

I also stayed in the same room. Yeah,

now I...I want to share with you something,

since he told about Saint Joseph’s College.

Now, he joined the IIT Madras as a research scholar

in 1964, and since then,

I have almost treated him as an younger brother,

and I have never called him by his name,

as just now Kumaran mentioned,

he was known as B. V., than B. Viswanathan,

even for students and colleagues and others,

and he mentioned about Saint Joseph’s College.

And then in '65, this is an anecdote,

I was going on...I was on my way to Palani

along with my wife and small daughter 2 years

and then on this...day before I had to leave Trichy,

I was staying very near Saint Joseph’s College,

I entered Saint Joseph’s College's compound

and it was Christmas time. I was just walking

and there was reflection of sunlight

on the second floor or so, some labs,

but then I thought it was some light burning

in some place, and I just showed

and then commented to my wife,

"I think that must be the Chemistry library or

Chemistry Department."

And then I didnt see that in front of me,

two fathers were coming,

a one of them happened to be the Principal,

Father Casimir, and another was an American guest,

another father, who had come for the Christmas,

and immediately, Professor Casimir suddenly said,

"You were pointing out there,

are you somebody connected with this college?

Then, I told him, "No,

but one of our very good students who works in my...

our laboratory Viswanathan has studied here,

and so I was just telling my wife...it may be."

Then, you know it was surprising

he said, "Please wait for two minutes,"

he just walked up to the fathers lodge,

left that Am...guest there,

asked somebody to provide him the keys

for the Chemistry Department.

He walked with me family,

opened all the labs,

opened the library, and said,

"This is a place where B. Viswanathan used to

spend his time reading, reading,

till I come and tell him go home and sleep,

go to the room and sleep." He used to

study for a long time and all.

I can never forget two things:

one, about the impression he had

created at Saint Joseph’s College.

Next, a head of an institution,

just for the sake of a guest

who was walking in the compound,

opening the department. I mean he felt so

proud of his department, so proud of his

college, somebody was talking about it.

And if I remember right, Father Casimir was a

classmate of Professor Kuriacose,

one of my colleagues in Loyola College

here in Nungambakkam,

and later I think he became the Archbishop of Mylapore.

So, I don’t know whether he still there,

he was a Chemistry. Yeah,

then he was an Archbishop and he used

to come to IIT for walking in the morning.

And he will definitely drop in in my house. Right,

You were a campus resident? Yes, at that time

at that time I have become a faculty member. Yeah.

So, therefore, I was in campus resident.

You were in wardens quarters? No, no I was in...D

now...old Canara Bank, D-2 Oh, I see...I see, oh you were in that Adyar Avenue

Adyar Avenue, yeah, you were

most of the time, you were in the hostel.

So, you first of course, as a student

stayed in the Cauvery Hostel

and then I think as a warden,

you must have stayed in several hostels. Yeah, yeah nearly 30 years

I was spending in hostels. Yeah,

that’s why you have been a Chairman Council of Wardens. Yes,

all...all the post.

Ok, now I just want to go back to the remembrance.

So when you joined in 1964,

you were along with three other research scholars,

do you remember? Yeah yeah, Swaminathan and Kannan.

No, no

I think now I will try to correct you.

Swaminathan and Jain.

Jain is one year senior to me. Oh, I see oh.

Kannan...Kannan is my classmate, I mean. Oh.

Joined in the same year. I see.

See, Jain is senior to me. When did he join then?

He joined in few months . '63, '63 December,

I joined in '64, July. Yeah yeah yeah yeah, I see oh, then Udupa?

Udupa also...he is senior to me. I see.

By few months. Oh Kannan, Swaminathan.

Yes. And and I think the...

those who did M. Sc., that is Santhanam and then

Venkappayya became research scholars. All of them are juniors to me.

They they joined after some time. Now,

Professor Viswanathan, when he started his research work,

I think 3 or 4 of us, including Professor Sastry,

Head of the Department, V. Srinivasan, myself

we had only one lab, because we didn't have much space,

And then I assisted him in building up the Adsorption Laboratory.

I was not...I had not built a...a unit, adsorption unit

when I did my Ph. D.

So, that too on a slotted angle frame

it was a lot of difficulty,

and then myself and Professor V. Srinivasan,

use our experience of working with

a glass blowing torch.

So, in fact, we had to make position joints and all that,

and the whole frame when we made,

we don’t have even a photograph of that now,

and we had to put wooden pieces behind,

that too deal wood, that’s all we could get,

not even teak wood.

So, on that we had to mount the burettes and all the

bulbs and everything we used to do it.

That was the first unit.

And then when the department moved

to the new building, Applied Chemistry Building,

that unit was also shifted.

Of course, it does not exist anymore,

we shifted, and if we used for several years later also.

Now, B. V., you have done work in lots of areas.

Now first and foremost, I would like you to remember,

you said about the research scholars Kannan,

Jain and others all of them.

Do you remember that,

you must have joined after that gas plant explosion took place? Yes.

You are not aware of that one ok,

but you were there when the liquid nitrogen plant came? Yeah, yeah.

So you are very much there when the liquid nitrogen plant came. Because I...because I was the first operator of that unit.

Yeah yeah yeah yeah I mean we used it

in fact. In fact I remember, we...the cancer hospital,

it was...in way back in 1964-65,

they wanted to do some experiments

with the cells, cancer cells,

and so they didn't want to

first take the liquid nitrogen there,

they have brought that thing and then

we provided a liquid nitrogen,

and they did the experiments right in our lab.

And then next time onwards,

we told them I will spare you

a Dewar flask, and they used to...

they started experiments. That is that,

doctor is no more, I think

that Muthulakshmi’s son or somebody Yes. Like that.

He was the first medical officer in the Cancer Institute

which is in the...the...Adyar.

Not in the present place.

Now, you said about the Ph. D. programme,

so you were registered with Professor Sastry and

V. Srinivasan. V. Srinivasan

and you remember I think after

the adsorption laboratory was set up,

you must have done one pore size,

a pore volume measurement, that means,

going from very low pressure to the

atmospheric pressure. How many hours

would you have taken to complete the experiment?

Initially, it was taking 2 or 3 days.

2 or 3 days to complete an exp... So continuously, because the...

it is...the temperature has to be maintained

by pouring liquid nitrogen, there is no

temperature control and all that.

So, therefore, we...three or four days

maybe sometimes even a week.

Because a... One week completely, you have

to keep...keep awake.

See the resins had to be taken once in two hours,

three hours, till the...once the equilibrium is obtained.

Fortunately, we had a liquid nitrogen plant,

there was no problem,

but then you know we had to work day and night

taking readings, when it becomes

constraint you would take.

And those readings had to be,

sort of filled up in an equation and finally,

the pores are volume distribution had

pore size distribution,

pore...calculation had be done.

And, let me tell you that

he developed a mathematical method,

for the calculation of pore size distribution

and it was published in Journal of Catalysis, am I right? Yes.

So, so experimental one is something.

So, he felt that its good also to do some theoretical work,

and he started his, this one at that same time,

to...a...do that calculation also.

I think you must have had a very good background in Mathematics.

Yeah, I did not do I...I had a background in mathematics,

actually I wanted to do Mathematics,

but in my family, my both brothers are Mathematicians,

therefore, they forced me to take Chemistry.

Oh, I see. That is how I came to Chemistry,

but I had some flair for Mathematics.

Oh that is how you continued your this...

Ok now, so, what I see, the...the thing you have provided,

now I just want to ask you, about various aspects of

studies you have done in the last 50 years, I would say 50 years

because you already completed more than 50 years.

Now, very...very first thing was on adsorption,

and, even when you were working as a research scholar,

we had one more person who joined as a research scholar,

Mister...a person from CECRI, I forget his name, Rajagopalan.

S. R. Rajagopalan. S. R. Rajagopalan.

Yeah, yes I am sorry...this I told you.

Now, there was one Mr. S. R. Rajagopalan

who joined as a research scholar.

If I remember right, it is a unique case

at least in IIT Madras, that Mr. Rajagopalan

was only a Bachelor’s Degree and that too not only that,

he was a Bachelors Degree in Natural Science.

Botany, Zoology or something like that.

But then he was directly registered for a Ph. D.,

and then he secured his Ph. D. in IIT Madras.

Not only that, later, he was a joint guide

from students in IIT Madras for Ph. D.,

along with I think, T. V. Ramakrishna and,

he was taken from Karaikudi CSIR laboratory,

all the way to the National Aeronautical Laboratory

and he retired from there. Yes.

And his wife was also a scientist there. Yes, Sir.

Now, can you tell me where Mr. Rajagopalan is? He is...he is now in Bangalore,

settled down in Bangalore, his wife is Indira Rajagopalan. I know.

The both of them live there,

but they don’t have any issues.

So he, but his sister in law has a son,

so he is living with his son...sister in law's son.

I see. In Bangalore,

I met him a few...few months back.

He must be nearing 90. He is 90...not 90,

he is 83...85 or 86. Yeah, he is elder to me, I know 85-86.

He is 90...1960, so now, 27 years, so, 87.

87 oh yes. Now, he was a...I mean,

I had also some collaboration with him,

but unfortunately we did not publish any work,

I had met him several times in National Aeronautical Laboratory.

In fact, we wanted to bring him as a Director

with the SPIC Science Foundation to the electrochemistry vision

that Parthasarathy wanted to replace,

but then he was not interested to come at that time.

Now, please tell me your work on adsorption as such,

so, can you please... Ok adsorption I...

I have done various aspects of adsorption,

as you know very well. But, on metals,

on on the pore size distribution, many...many others

even...even vapors adsorption also I have done,

isopropyl alcohol or some organic matter,

we will not go into the details.

So, therefore vapor adsorption at the time was

not known in this country. Yeah, yeah.

It was...the permanent gas adsorptions are known. Yeah.

Vapor adsorption was not known,

so, vapor adsorption, and why I did vapor adsorption is,

I afterwards I converted into catalytic reactions. Yeah.

So, therefore, catalytic reactions adsorption is important.

so, the...in that way, I went to the adsorption of the vapors. Yeah.

Then we we built up some microbalance and all those things. Yeah.

And you know very well, one of the microbalances

which was originally done in this place ok.

We...we...we didn't have a com balance,

commercial balance, only quartz spring balance were there. Yeah.

So, therefore, quartz spring balance only we were

using first...first, then we purchased com balance,

then we purchased more...more than one com balance.

So, from the...in the...from the adsorption, I deviated

to, at that point of time, to do a catalysis. I see that catalytic reactions.

Yeah, but still now, even...you see...you said about the

the framework and all that, we have still the frameworks

they...they are slotted angle frame

and the adsorption units still there ok. I see, I see.

It is not used now, because people are not having that type...

because you know very well, even to take one adsorption

isotherm it is only a few points, but it will take one full day. One full day.

So, therefore, now people are...want

everything in the computer

and the results must be within few hours or few minutes, that is a Yeah.

So, therefore nobody has the patience

to use those apparatus. But it is still there. I see,

Now, in in this connection,

I wanted to mention

very...it...I can say it was interesting observation,

but you know once we were trying to

do that pore volume measurement, pore...up to the

saturation pressure, with nitrogen, on the com balance.

So, I don’t know how much time it took

maybe one day, and then something happened

very funnily. So the quartz bulb was

containing the sample, and then just as it is a

liquid hydrogen temperature, and I was

thinking that we are going to make a measurement,

and I was very much there and

suddenly, there was a disturbance,

and then the entire powder in the thing

got tilted out. And then I said, "What is this?"

"Why is it happening?" You know,

I was surprised, that the liquid nitrogen, possibly

was a nitrogen gas...was possibly contaminated

a little bit of oxygen, and this oxygen had condensed

in the form of a thin hair and these had connected

to the sides of the bulb.

And so that disturbed,

because the balance was no longer free,

and the entire thing got disturbed

and the whole powder fell down,

and I said this is very funny.

So next time I did not go through the

entire pore volume, just went through the saturation pressure,

very near...and again repeated, again it happened.

So I knew the nitrogen gas

were filled up, was possibly impure,

it was set at...

I never reported this in any...this one, but it is

an experience which I always remember.

And, you mentioned about the other balance.

We did obtain the Stanton thermobalance

unfortunately, because when the whole thing

was shifted from one building to another,

and then I don’t blame,

I don’t know whether...

I cannot blame Professor Sastry or anybody,

but then 20 years later, 20 years later,

parts of that, which were lost

were found in one of the cupboards, in the laboratory.

And it was too late

by then you know com balance, we had just

condemned it somewhere, and then I felt

so sorry about it. And I...I told this to

Professor Srinivasan just before retiring,

it was lying somewhere there,

I don’t know whether I must have told you all that.

Because this is not the only thing that we lost in this,

another was parts of the microcalorimeter,

and I think the...parts of the porosimeter,

because porosimeter we could never set it up,

the mercury...sorry porosimeter we set up at the

other one we could not set up the. Calorimeter.

Calorimeter. And you know this was something which

happened because of things when...happened

shifting and all that, and microcalorimeter

was a bit damaged also.

Have you made use of that...first mass spectrometer

which came...CIS? Yeah, yeah

I didn’t use the first mass spectrometer,

which was in the HSB, it was installed. Yeah, yeah installed mass...

I...I was responsible for installing it I...Yeah...yeah that's correct,

Then that Ramana...Then, then Ramana took over as a...

because he was working on mass spectrometer of the fragments,

but I have use...installed it and used it.

I see...of course, that was only meant for setting. Organic vapors is morely...

mostly in...in one day...and that time

we were using permanent gases and other things.

Yes. Therefore, we...we didn’t use it extensively,

but I have used it. I see, ok.

Now, somewhere you...when you became a Lecturer in 1960...

Associate Lecturer in 1968 or '67...

'69. '69 you became is it? I see.

So, I think by the time the Institute

celebrates Golden Jubilee...sorry Diamond Jubilee,

you will be celebrating your Silver Jubilee...

sorry Golden Jubilee as a faculty member.

So, Mister Kumaran, so I think we must remember,

he is going to celebrate his Golden Jubilee,

as a faculty member. Yes, yes.

As...by about...say two years' time now.

Now, let me then ask about the catalytic reactions,

you have carried out a number of catalytic reactions.

And, any reaction which you think

you could have possibly...we could have commercialized,

you could have commercialized

and possibly for some reasons, it didn’t go to that stage.

Ok, many...many things we could have commercialized.

For example, recently we did Narimanam

you might have heard about it.

Narimanam is a village in in Tanjore district,

or very near to Karaikal. The...there, they found oil.

But the oil cannot be directly used,

because the the sulphur content is 720 PPM. Oh, I see.

So it has to be refined and brought to...

for example, even today in the cities...ok, in the metropolis,

it should be 50 PPM. And in the...in the rural areas,

it can be 100 to 150 PPM. Ok that is that refined petrol.

Petrol or diesel or fuel, let us not worry about it.

So but the...what they were doing is, they were

shipping the...from Narimanam to Chennai,

refined it and then brought it back to the villages.

So, we developed a process by simply pumping the oil

through a column. We can bring down the sulphur content

from 720 to less than 150.

And then it can be sold in the rural areas there itself. I see.

Because the amount of crude oil that was

available at that time is...is not some metric...

a million metric tons, it is only few tons ok,

so therefore, the bringing it here

and refining it. Yeah, its.

And bringing it back there, it will be

unnecessarily adding the cost.

So this process...like this, this is one of them ok,

there are many processes that we have developed.

So this...this process we developed for CPCL.

Today’s CPCL, at that time MRL. Madras Refineries.

But you know very well, in this country, any...

any development that you do,

it should be also in...in...include some perks,

we cannot give any perks to them.

yeah yeah. So therefore it was not implemented,

but I...I had very good connections with the CMD of MRL,

the from the first Deenadayalu and then

subsequently all of them. Yeah, I know I know I know.

All of them were personally known to me.

So, that is one of the reasons why we did for them.

This project started in '80’s, you may be knowing

with the Sitharaman as the. Yeah.

Head of R and D. And then, we...we...even...even in

twen...2004, 2005, we were working for the Narimanam project.

I see, because I was not there. So, this is one of them.

The...the same way we have done...developed

an alumina catalyst which is having pore size.

At that time alumina, and the silica, as you know very well

as carbon is one of the coconut shell carbon is

one of the Indian famous. But it is no longer good,

because, now the Chinese are bringing

carbon 3000 square meters per gram.

Whereas, coconut, charcoal and other things

will have only 200 to 300. At that time,

I...the Indian Oil Corporation, also is...

was interested in the alumina. So we developed

an alumina which is porous alumina which

will have surface areas greater than 300 square meters.

I see. Because normally alumina will have only 150 to 200.

What, what alumina was it? It is a gamma alumina.

I see gamma alumina. Because it is a support for many of

the refining process. Yeah, yeah right right.

So, therefore, this...this was

about to be commercialized by one of the companies,

we will not name them.

So, the, but...but

somehow or other I...I P C, I mean IOCL

did not pursue it further.

But we went and manufactured this.

The same way as you know when...when we

did the work for CPCL,

the main catalyst in the refining is FCC:

Fluid Catalytic Cracking.

Now, if you take...in India itself,

we are importing FCC catalysts may...even if you

put an optimist estimate, 10000 tons per year,

10000 tons of the catalyst are being imported.

So, what we did was, we...we developed a catalyst

for FCC in our laboratory, and then I went

to a...a manufacturing company, at that time,

the manufacturing company was in. Haldia.

West Bengal...West Bengal. Haldia, I remember, I remember.

I went there, we...we developed the catalyst,

then we...we...the representative from MRL,

Mister...Doctor Meenakshi Sundaram Yeah.

and myself were returning, when we arrived here by train,

at the time they purchased that company.

The Western Company, purchased the manufacturing unit,

and destroyed it within two days.

Because they know fully well that the FCC catalyst

will be manufactured in India and they did not want, because...

This is news to me, I have. Yes, but we cannot tell this out,

how can we tell this out? Who purchased it, who...?

This is...the...the company belonged to Hindustan Lever. Oh, I see yeah.

The...the manufacturing company was

belonging to Hindustan Lever

and you know very well these are all multinationals. Yeah, yeah yeah yeah.

They will be able to manipulate everything.

Everything happened within three days.

We...we had to come from Haldia to Howrah,

Howrah to Chennai by train, by the time we arrived here

already everything is... This is news to me

I only know that the MRL was not interested. No, no no

MRL was very much... No no no MRL see the company said...

you had to order for one crore worth of catalyst. Yeah, yeah that is a.

And these people were hesitant to do it, and then that is

why I said that you should at least file patents, and

they agreed and we joined the file. Yeah, yeah we...we have

we...we...we still have the patent, three patents are there with that. Yeah yeah that’s correct, that’s correct

so. Because why they asked is the MRL, at that time

not now, at that time the capacity for FCC catalyst was 300 tonnes.

And each tonne at that time itself one lakh.

Now, we are not talking about the cost of today.

So therefore, per year, they have to buy 300...300 lakh of rupees.

So therefore, they thought, because at that time there were only

about 9 or 10 refineries, now we have 17 refineries in India.

So...and also the biggest refinery in the world itself is there in India.

The Reliance. Reliance yeah.

Ok, because they are...they are consuming about

maybe about 1500 Tons of FCC catalyst.

Anyway the above 1000. You mean, the FCC catalyst

they still use all hydro cracking and other things. No no no, this a

FCC is a...is a part of that ok. Yeah, is a part.

Yeah, once you do the FCC, then you can do hydro cracking and all those things. Yeah, right that was the...

Yes. Higher fractions

Yes. And all that higher fraction ok.

So, we have a covered about the...I am say catalytic

reactions to something which is a lot of industrial interest.

One more project which we started,

and you were very much involved in, that was the hydrogen energy.

And naturally, there was a hydrogen energy materials

science laboratory and Professor Shastry tried to

put forward, what India is capable of in doing hydrogen energy

in the world level and all that. But then,

what is the present state of this hydrogen energy

thing in India and in the world, as such? Ok

in. And our cont... First first. Your contribution.

In the...my contribution, I will come to it later,

the...the present status of hydrogen energy in

India is very...very meager ok.

I mean, when compared to other countries.

This is because, the production is become...

from the decomposition of water ok.

The decomposition of water at the moment

in the commercial scale, not laboratory scale,

in the commercial scale if you have to take,

the efficiency is less than 10 percent,

single digit percent. If the...if...if any chemical

process you are to carry out, it should be having

at least carnot efficiency, 33 percent,

then only it will...even if you take solar cell,

the silicon solar cells is only 26 percent,

that is why they are looking for alternatives for solar cells.

So, therefore, the...the...the problem here is, the materials.

Yes. The...H2O getting decomposed...it requires 1.23 Volts,

but it will not decompose if you apply 1.23 Volts,

you have to put some more over voltage. Yeah.

So, therefore, if you put all those things,

the efficiency will come down. Yeah.

Ok...it, that is the problem. Even today,

western world is trying ok, I myself

have addressed the American Chemical Society,

number of times I was specifically invited for this,

ok. In...in...in addition, that is the...even the hydrogen storage.

Yeah. You may be knowing, in 1999,

very...you may be knowing the scientist also,

I don’t want to name him.

He is a very famous scientist from Northwestern University.

He reported a value of 67 weight percent.

And 2001, I was asked to address the American Chemical Society,

what is the status of the hydrogen

storage in...in solid state materials?

So, the...the first line I said is,

"This result is nonsense." The whole of the audience

of Americans stood up, "What is all this..."

Then, I said, "You see, in the nature,

carbon and hydrogen ratio is...if you

take the highest hydrogen containing

carbon material, is CH4."

So, 12 plus 4, 16, 16 grams can contain 4 grams.

Therefore, if I have 100 grams, it can contain only

25 for its weight percent. 67 weight

percent storage is impossible. Oh.

So, this is the...there are other evidences also,

we can say, we will not go into all of them.

The oxidation potential, reduction potential

we can use, all those things we can show.

Many ways I proved, within 5 minutes, I proved,

everybody sat down. I mean it is not to...

so now, that is one of the...that is also...today also is a problem.

Now, I will...I will tell you, because, if you take metals,

ok, we...metals is the one of the ways where hydrogen

can be stored, even in IIT in Mechanical Engineering,

in Chemistry, in Physics, all the places have metals

or inter metallics are used for hydrogen storage.

But the in the case of the metals,

If you have one metal atom,

one hydrogen alone can be stored.

Ok, it is not a stoichiometry,

it is the...the vacant space that is available.

Yeah, yeah yeah. So therefore, if I have iron, 55 grams,

we will store only one gram.

So 100 grams of iron will

store two grams only.

So, even if you take a...a

very...unless always the atomic weight

of the metal is going to be 10,

then you can, 10-1-1 therefore, 110 percent.

So, that is why magnesium is storing...

Yeah, that’s why. More storing more.

So, you should not immediately say

all metals will store more.

Whereas, carbon will store up to 25 weight percent,

but we can make only one residual valency.

Yeah. The other two-three...three has to be connected to other three carbons,

only the surface carbon alone, one have a one residual valency,

that will store 25 by 4, 36.25,

that is the original DOE standards,

they expected only six percent storage.

In carbon? Carbon.

Whatever may the type of carbon?

Any...any type of carbon, you can...you

technically and scientifically, you can achieve six percent

I see. Storage, but we have not yet achieved that.

Naturally, naturally. That is a different situation.

So, therefore, it...even with hydrogen...hydrogen production,

and hydrogen storage is a fertile field of research even today.

I see. And if...not only fertile field of research it\,

is as a very...very many things can be done in that.

No no, you don’t talk about the metals and alloys,

inter metallics in it, but just a porous material like

a zeolite or a very, can that at least be used Yeah, yeah there...that’s the that MOF,

you might have heard about it, Metal Organic Framework. Yeah,

metal organic. which which is having very high porosity,

see where hydrogen storage can be done

to whatever extent you want,

but the material must be recyclable at least

10 to 20000 cycles. Right.

Then only it will...is economical.

For example, you have a petrol tank,

tank is there therefore, you can go on filling it up.

In the same way if I have a...it is...it is a tank.

It takes the hydrogen and gives at the tank.

So it should be capable of taking any number of cycles.

At least for an automobile applications, or

for mobile applications, the cycling must be at least

thousand times, if possibly it must be 10...tens of thousands.

Now, these materials will not stand with that,

it will be one or two times only.

Then, how is it they are talking of running automobiles on hydrogen energy or Yeah,

that is what...the...the hydrogen

hydrogen can be stored in cylinder, various ways. Yeah.

So, therefore, that...but that is a weight penalty.

Weight penalty. Yes.

So, So, you have to...if you are using a cylinder,

even now today you can use. Yeah, yeah

Point is, whatever they are claiming that

they are using hydrogen energy,

that is all just not by hydride

basis or anything like that, it is only by cylinder No no no no directly they are not

directly they are not using hydrogen, because

you carry, you carry in a automobile, a cylinder,

it is equivalent to carrying a bomb, bomb in a vehicle. bomb

So, they might be carrying the hydride

hydride storage vessels. Yes

So, we should be, I mean is there any limit

to the size of the hydride? Yeah, yes it is all...it...

it the...the...the whole of the automobile

configuration itself has to be changed. I see.

We...we also did another thing, ok, I don’t want to tell this here,

we...we tried to generate hydrogen in situ in a car. I see.

The same method ok, decomposing water,

but not by electrolysis, because in the...in a car,

I cannot do electrolysis. Yeah.

So, it is a chemical reaction,

we will not go into the details of the chemical reaction.

We...we tried this and we try...drove the car,

I myself drove the car to Tirupati,

from Chennai ok, but only thing is in a route and in a time

when there will be no traffic. Because it is...if it explodes it...

it will be very dangerous. Then I wanted to

demonstrate this car in IIT.

At that time Ananth was the Director

and he knew about this development.

So he wanted me to bring the car and do it.

So, we brought it and put it very near to the CLT

and then started preparing it, it exploded.

It exploded. Yes.

I see. I will tell you what is that happened ok.

So, therefore, the the whole Maruthi car became nothing ok,

anyway we will not talk about it. I see, but it was a run for...

No no no it was preparing to run. No no I am telling you said you ran it

No no after that...after that, after this explosion,

we found out why...why it has happened and all those things,

then I drove the car from a Chennai to Hyderabad. I see.

These are all done for a company which is

associated with the...the previous Chief Minister of Andhra Pradesh.

So, we will not name him and all those things,

Jagan Mohan Reddy’s father.

No but what is the present situation there?

That chemical method is possible still, but it is dangerous. Ok.

So now, the...the...was the Institute,

IIT, was it anyway financially compensating for the No no no this was done by

the uncle of the...Jagan Mohan Reddy’s father.

I see no no, but they paid for all this? Yeah, yeah they paid for all of this,

even the car was paid by by them. But you were paid for it?

No no no. For doing the research.

I was...I was...I was only, I was only helping them. I see I see ok

and something...something which is very interesting,

now you have also worked on hydrate batteries,

what is difference between hydrate batteries

and hydrogen storage, what is the difference?

Now, hydrate batteries is a...is a

because you know very well, the combustion value of

hydrogen is very high, compared to any other thing. So, yeah, so that.

So, therefore, hydrate batteries is better, but

today, hydrate batteries are not so famous,

lithium ion batteries alone is...for example,

in this year’s Nobel Prize and last year’s Nobel Prize

should have gone to Goodenough, because he was the man

who invented the lithium ion battery, ok.

Who? But, unfortunately for some reason,

we will not go into all of the reason,

He published a paper in March...end of March...March 27th

on a lithium ion battery, it it made a stir in the whole world.

I see. Ok, but unfortunately what happened is, that paper,

it is not yet published, so, I don’t want to discuss that,

but still...I...we can discuss that science,

there is a flaw in that paper.

So that was pointed out by a by a scientist in...from MIT,

there...it is still...it is not out because,

Nobel Prize was being considered,

therefore, this...this objection

comes, the...Goodenough's name will go.

So, therefore, even now, even now

it is not yet published. I see, I see.

Now let me just digress

for a minute from the research.

Now, you have guided a large number of students,

now, with how many are you still in contact,

can you name some of them? Nearly 90 percent.

Oh. I have...I have guided...guided, I will not say,

I have been associated ok. Ok.

About more than 120 students.

Not only in Chemistry, but in other Departments also. Yeah,

the whole Institute, and also some other Institute,

because you know very well...that yeah, so,

not only in Chennai ok, where...wherever the

even...even up to Tezpur in one corner,

they are...in the in the western corner, up to Gujarat. Ok.

So. Now, any of your students,

research students, or those with whom you are associated,

have received the Distinguished

Alumnus Award of the Institute?

I don’t remember, I don’t keep track of it,

but the... Who is it that has now...heading the laboratory of

Goodenough? Oh...Mandiram oh ok ok.

Has Mandiram received it? Yes, yes.

Mandiram received it ok, I think we will check

in the Distinguished Alumnus Award. Yeah, yeah he received it.

He received it. you have worked with Palanisamy?

Yes. Is Palanisamy also in some way...no, Mandiram only

Mandiram only, yes what about that DuPont fellow

M...M. A. Subramanian. M. A. Subramanian did not

get the alumni... No, I think he did not get it,

he is a Ph. D. from our college, ok.

Now, let me just...this is about the students,

and you say you remember most of the students.

Now, you did some work for some company in USA,

Columbia. Columbian Chemicals.

Yeah, was it industry... Ok. collaborations project?

I will, I will just tell you the story of the Columbian Chemicals.

I went to United States up to that year I did not

even step into the any of the western countries,

I only stayed in India, ok.

I stepped into the United States only after 2000,

after my retirement. No, but you had been to Germany and.

That is later, I mean the United States. United States ok.

So, when I went to you know Columbian Chemicals,

at that time one of my student was in Columbian Chemicals,

Srinivas. Yeah, Srinivas yeah.

So he invited me to, at that time meeting only, the

the...the hydrogen storage address was there.

So he invited me, so I went there,

I don’t want to name the Vice President.

He said they were...they were in the business

of making carbon ok, the carbon is low ion carbon,

for tyre manufacture and other things.

At that time, the...the carbon can be made

very very value at the addition, carbon electrodes

and other things ok, we will not talk about it.

So, he threw me a challenge because

they have invested in two best institutes in the

United States and United Kingdom.

You...now itself you can imagine what

will be the names of the the institutions,

Cambridge and MIT, to make this

carbon material into value addition.

Value addition means, it should not be useful to

the low ion use, it should be

a gram of carbon must cost you

1000 dollars like that. So, he gave this project,

he came to IIT, he gave me this project in March

one year, then he said every six months

I will visit you, you...you tell me the progress.

So, by September he came, I gave them the process. I see.

At that time, that two other...two other institutions,

we will not worry about that, they could not even progress anything.

Now, was it...was IIT Madras compensated for this? No, I will tell you,

then he said, "I should give you some some reward for this."

So, he said, "I will give you 20000 dollars free."

Without any commitment, then I said, "I don’t take any money

for any...on any of these things."

So, give this 20000 dollars to our Institute. Yeah.

So, they gave the money to...to 20000 dollars to the Institute,

we...with the condition that it should be used for

research purposes of our laboratory. Same thing ok,

you...you can call it research based. So like that he was

even willing to give more, but at that time, the...

there was some restrictions. I see, I see.

These type of donations, we cannot get...certain amount only. I see,

oh it was not called the research based industrial consultancy No no no it was a gift.

Oh because what I did was, I...

that is a...that is a...

that is a different thing. Yeah, I made it...I see, ok.

Oh that’s...now that is at Columbian...because I see

quite a few things mentioned in your patents,

that it is being...the it has been patented by the company. Yes, yes.

Oh, they have patented it.

They have patented it They have made money on that one.

Now, as of now has that two Western Universities contributed? No,

but Columbian Chemicals itself has been sold to some Ok.

Taiwanese and other things. Ok.

So, it it did not get through. Ok,

Now I will go back to something else.

Now, you know that we were...

our Department was associated,

the Chemistry Department to the catalysis group

was known in most of the Western countries

I don’t say about USA, Europe and all that,

as a...as a centre for catalysis research.

Now, you know that Russians used to come, Russian groups

used to come and attend even our...

and some others, some Germany other countries also.

Oh, do you remember the visit to some of the

Germans who came to IIT Madras, Chemistry Department. Yes, I know.

During '70s, can you name, and you went

to one of them to do your Post Doctoral. Professor Block is one of them.

Yes. Professor Knozinger is one of them

and then Helmut is another...another Professor. Professor?

Helmut, from the Fritz Haber Institute

the...who is worked on the... Oh Karge...Helmut Karge.

Now, what about the...the person Janicke and Ernst.

Ernst...Ernst and... Yeah.

Now, then there are...wait a minute. Now, Professor Block,

you went to Professor Block, to spend a Post Doctoral with him,

I mean I...I think von Humboldt Fellowship.

And again I think, you worked for some time

with Max Planck fellow also.

Now, have you...you must have definitely

visited their workshops.

So the excellent workshop extending over,

so you must have possibly built also...

used the workshop for your research work and all that.

Now, you have published with Professor Block some paper? Yeah, yeah lot of papers.

But you have not I think you have mentioned only one paper or two papers. Because...

It is. But anyway for more more than five or six papers with him.

I see, but during the time when you were with Professor Block,

was the Nobel laureate. Ernst...Ernst.

Yeah. Was he also there? Ertl; Ertl.

The Nobel. Ertl...Ertl.

Correct, was he also there? He was not there at the time.

Ok. But, I know him.

Ok, now I, if I were to say that if Professor Block were to be alive,

then Professor Ertl got the Nobel Prize,

it would have been awarded to both of them together,

would you agree that? No no, not that way,

Block would have got it individually, because, Block has developed...

For example, I will tell you one thing,

just now we have an instrument, which is

costing about, we will not worry about the cost,

B. S. Murty has installed.

This technique itself was developed first,

we...we developed ok, myself and Block and others

ok, we will not name the all of them.

So, the...we were developed, but we did not succeed at the time,

that is. what was that.

The photo, Photo Induced Ionization.

Photo Induced Ionization Spectroscopy. Yes.

The same technique only now they...it is the commercially available

and B. S. Murty has invested about maybe 50-60 crores.

What for is this? It is studying the fragmentations

that are taking place inside the thing with a...with the...voltage,

high voltage. Now, how is B. S. Murty...in Metallurgical.

Yeah yeah yeah, but he is interested in in the metallic clusters

and other things so. I see I see I see so...

That is not a thing...ok because it is a laser beam,

so it is an instantaneous heat. I see.

So, therefore, you can evaporate any metal.

But then your interest was on what? On Field Ionization.

Field Ionization. That is, field ionization requires very...very high field

10 to the power of 8 volts per angstrom.

So that means, I should apply 30000 volts or 40000 volts,

40000 volts in a room if you are applying,

what a danger. So therefore, we wanted to

bring down that application of the voltage on the...

on the metal tip, this is called tip,

filament we will say...take a filament. So, therefore,

we wanted to bring down that voltage.

So we wanted to do voltage plus photons

so that it will ionize easily. I see.

The concept itself is a new thing there, at that time ok.

This was in '70. It was in '78.

'78 I see.

No, what I felt was because Ertl came...

because Ertl came later, and then Ertl and

so many joined, who were working parallelly

and they were in contact, but I felt that when Ertl got it,

he would have...Block also would have possibly... Block was, if...

if Block was...were...were to be alive, he would have got

a Nobel Prize even earlier than Ertl. I see I see,

because now...now that we talked about Nobel Prize,

have you visited in Fritz Haber Institute,

the room where the Nobel Prize... Yeah, yeah it will be a room...

Almost about this size. slightly About this size and the on the wall,

there will be photographs of that... All the Noble laureates.

Yes, there will be 20-25, in the Fritz Haber Institute itself...

itself will be a...Nobel Prize will be 20-25, and many others

who...who were very near to the Nobel Prize.

For example, you take Gerischer in this year’s ok, Block’s year,

there were...there was a talk that Gerischer and Block

both will get the Nobel Prize.

Yeah. But Gerischer was the Director and

Block was the previous Director.

I see. That rotating system existing long ago,

then Ertl became the Director, when Block died,

then Ertl became the Director. No, you have visited because he had

taken me to that room and No, I have I attended many seminars in that room.

Yeah, I see. I myself have given a seminar there.

I see I see. So, ok, going back to that, you have

spent some time in Japan also, what was your work in Japan?

In Japan, I was working...ok development

of silicons at that time ok, this is in '83, '84 ok.

Gating Technique. I see.

So, reducing the time of Gating Technique. I see, I see.

So, silicons...silicon based systems we were doing, we were measuring.

So, it is, I mean, in which this one does it come?

Does it come under materials or does it come under? It is...it is...it can be considered as materials,

at that time only the silicon single...single crystals ok,

I was using single crystals only, single crystal and technology, ok.

Single crystal is known for the centuries together,

but the technology, especially in the electrical...electronics industry,

silicon single chips were there.

now. For example, you said, they are same...same thing,

it was done...the work was done for a company and our instrument,

some...some fault was there, ok and I had only eight months time.

So, therefore, the, but the instrument

has to come from United Kingdom.

I see, I see. So, when I phoned up the company, they said

"How many hours is the flight from United Kingdom to Japan?"

We were in...in Japan in Tokyo...in Hokkaido

Hokkaido is very much away from Tokyo

ok, four or five hours flight for a thing,

but anyway we will not worry.

Then, they said, "24 hours you wait,

24 hours you spend your time

24 hours, it will be deposited to you."

So, within 24 hours, it was there on my table.

The instrument. That part.

I see part, I see.

So, let me now come to a later part,

now you were associated with the...the catalysis division,

almost somewhere the inception,

you know Professor Kuriacose

who became the Head of the Catalysis Division in 1984.

And he got...sorry, he got...he got associated with

the MRL project of '84 onwards, and he got the building,

the Kinetic Catalysis Lab, and the Catalysis Division almost

simultaneously, around '85 or '86, because the...

it was a Silver Jubilee cooperation agreement.

Now, you were involved initially, because you know when,

Professor Weitkamp, the coordinator came

and then you were involved in all that SWOT analysis

and all that finally, you know that we were not

very much consulted on the type of equipment.

What make, and what this one had to be...we wanted,

they decided everything under.

Even when we...in the

first agreement or the third IIT agreement,

when we got equipment Professor Sastry’s time.

You remember the planner on the German side have,

you met him Professor Kerber?

I didn’t meet him. Technical University...

See Professor Kerber, I don’t think made any

much visits to this place.

He had visited once,

and we have a photograph of his, and that...some organization meeting,

but then he...the Professor who have sent

was one Professor Butenuth who must have known him. Butenuth I know very well.

Yeah, but Butenuth, what was his specialization we could not make out,

he was mostly... He was Mineral Chemistry.

Mineral Chemistry, and so he could not do anything and

did not possibly...it was a misfit in Chemistry.

So, he spent his time, I felt, he felt very miserable

during that one year and he went away,

but wanted to keep in touch with two people who went

to Germany afterward, Professor Ramana and

Professor V. R. S. Rao...sorry Professor Udupa

and took them round and all that. Anyway, that

was not a very good...

Now, let’s come to the catalysis division time,

you know after Weitkamp started supplying the equipment,

one of the equipment that was supplied, I felt was a waste,

that was a hydrogen plant. And you know that room

was set up and then it was all there, what happened to that

one after he retired? It was all demolished.

Because we could not use it because it was in

semi-industrial level.

And that had to be connected

by lines to the hydrogen, into the main lab, to be used for

chromatographic purposes Yeah, but see

this was done 30 years back or 40 years before,

or in '70s around. '80...'80s '80s,

80’s so, that’s hydrogen is a safety measure, ok.

Yeah. It is a very dangerous to do such hydrogen

production inside the building, in inside an institution. Yeah.

And it is put in the...in the midst of Physics, Chemistry,

and other other things, and it was put in a very small room.

So, it is operationally...it was not...cannot be a successful thing. I know,

that’s what I am telling you, that see the supply,

I mean they decided to supply certain things which were not

of use to us which we could not put to use ok. Same...

same thing happened in the case of the first

set of equipment and all that.

Now, on behalf of the Heritage Centre,

I would like to ask you something. You know you had used,

I had use...we used to use a mechanical calculator. Facit; facit.

Facit Facit calculator. Do you have any one of them in the Chemistry still?

We don’t have a Facit calculator, but we had number of them

ok. Oh, do you know where we can get one?

We want to put it in the Heritage Museum.

So, we are asking where...who...asking people who have used it,

all the Departments have used it, I remember.

I have used it extensively. Yeah,

now for this...for the purpose of the Heritage Centre,

I want to tell, that then we were the

two who were...doing all the donkeys work,

as far as the seminars in the Chemistry Department are concerned.

Right from 1967, I think when we arranged the

Solid State Chemistry Symposium.

So we had to take care of the projector,

we had to take care of all the arrangements

and then I think it was done even when all the

resonance meetings were...I mean intercollegiate

meetings were held. I think we were the last to go out

in the evening, taking all the projectors along

with some research students and all that.

I mean I can never forget,

so, in the not... Not only...not only in the city of Madras,

when we organized Catalysis Symposium in Dhanbad

I see, there also I do not know, whether you remember

No, no. You traveled with us, we took the projector.

I see. Not a slide projector alone,

even the overhead projector from here. Oh, that was for the workshop?

Workshop for Catalysis workshop ok. Yeah because I came only for the Sindri this one,

PDIL. Ok, but...but it is in the ISM, Dhanbad.

Yeah, yeah that. Recently, I was...I was in Dhanbad, I was remembering that.

I see, I see because I went only for the, what

Sindri Organization and that was. Yeah, Sindri is different,

Sindri is. But that was....I mean the

the guest house was all horrible, in sense

lot of mosquitoes and all that, that is where we

gave the Eminent Scientist Award for the first time. Yeah, yeah.

So, Professor M. V. C. Sastri gave an address and he received the award.

Now, Professor Viswanathan is a...has also received

the Eminent Scientist Award of Catalysis Society,

in addition to several other awards which we have listed here.

So, I just want to once again take you back

to some of the joint projects that

we might have done together.

So, for example, one is the...

this thing about uh...MRL project,

another is about the work on X-ray photoelectron.

I mean is...installing, and then doing some work on the

XP...XPS things. What is the present situation about...

I think that instrument is condemned. No no no, that...that instrument is condemned,

but now we have a new instrument.

Is it now working? Is...what is? Yes yes, it is working.

I see. And we are...we are the only institution, or only centre

which were giving service free of charge to anybody

in the whole of this country, and even in the whole of the world.

I wanted to...what are the facilities available?

I have never come...visited that's the reason... For catalysis, you have everything there.

I see. In a modern...modern...all spectroscopies

and all...even we have a TEM, very...very, two angstroms you can resolve.

I see I see I see. The the best instrument is one angstrom,

but our instrument can resolve 2 angstroms.

Because we are...we going to use a catalyst and

other things which is a dirty material.

So, one angstrom instrument will be spoiled very easily,

that is why we...we...we went in for a two angstrom,

this costs you...us around 10 crores,

all put together ok, the instrument and the room and other things.

You mean, now what? It is working.

I see, I see. And it is giving service for

the whole of this country, even for IIT,

even though in IIT we have at least five microscopes,

10 microscopes. I see.

But the...ours is the most extensively used instrument.

Oh, I see, you mean electron microscopy. Electron microscopy.

Electron microscopy. Now, you know we received one

thing for gas analysis.

I am not talking about...

the what happened to the GCMS, I don’t know.

That was condemned is it, GCMS? Yeah, yeah that was condemned.

That was condemned.

Now, we used to have another you know, gas analysis.

We couldn’t use the...there was no

software available for getting the detailed data and all that.

And then, Professor Karge, the Karge sent us the

reaction unit to be used along with the

infrared spectrometer. That was also not set up with it

I think by then the...IR...IR instrument failed and... But now we have,

nowadays commercially there are various instruments,

at that time we had to get it custom made by Karge.

Yeah. But, now it is all available, it is...it is possible even now,

in our instrument. I see,

you...you have facilities for all that? Yeah yeah.

I see. It is...it is all now commercially available.

I see, now I just want to ask you about...

its...you know Professor Block, since I visited

his Institute in 1989, just a few months before

the unification. And...of course, I will not tell about

this small incident which happened when you

took us for a walk after lunch.

But then I made a comment to him the day I was leaving,

so they had said that it is a waste, that this...the East Germany

and West Germany separated.

And then I was sitting,

much later, when I went in '89, I went along with

Professor Pillai as a visiting...

And we were sitting at the front,

that gate and then I said "What a waste,

I think this wall has to come down."

We did not have a camera, we want to

take a photograph, and four months later it came down.

So in fact I have been mentioning that turn

since we would like to do a historical survey of IIT Madras,

So history has been written,

it will be a Diamond Jubilee history, which we are going to write.

The first 30 years, ends in '89,

So, our collaboration was with FRG.

So, '89 onwards it is with Germany,

the unified Germany.

And you remember in '90,

you and I were invited by Professor Knozinger

and his wife, we were guests in a

galas thing somewhere, I think I...

German Consulate had invited us for a party

in the evening, we were both guests of Professor Knozinger

do you remember that? So, Yeah.

yeah. So, Professor Block of course, had come

a few months earlier.

Now, Professor Block

because I mentioned about this wall,

he brought a piece of that wall and presented to us.

Do you have it in the...I passed it on

to you or I passed it on to the Head of the Department,

I don’t remember. No no I recently saw that...that

Where is it? I don’t know now,

but recen...I can locate it. If it is in.

In the...in the if the something with which you can keep. With...with

some...some plastic container or No no it...covered with polythene

can you please...we would like to keep it in Heritage Centre with

Professor Block’s name, if possible, a photograph of Professor Block.

Ok. So, saying that... That, I will locate.

Yeah please, because I was thinking it was in the

Head of the Department.

It was in the Head of the Department

office only, even now it may be in the Head of the Department

because since I was also Head of the...

That is what I am saying. So, therefore, I know I remember to have seen it,

recently also I saw that therefore You check, whether you have in your room,

if not. It is not in my room,

but anyway I will locate it...I will locate it. Please locate and please let us know about that one.

Now, is there something which you would like to

say about the IIT of those days,

when you joined in 1964, and IIT of today?

So, campus wise, the...see the...by way of

the contribution that IIT has made,

because you have spent 50 years

I can tell only up to...when I retired.

Now, as I can tell you, I give a hint also,

one Professor...Professor Ananth, nobody...he said,

that then...since 2000,

the amount of money IIT has been getting, is

enormous, because there is absolutely no problem

about funding. So, many organizations are funding.

So, that is why the research output has also increased,

you can do newer type of research and all that.

So, I mean, I myself telling you,

this is one of the observations that we have made,

do you have any observations you made?

But, this is not anyway I...I don’t want to come. No no personal,

no...no your personal thing you can tell.

Ananth is a well...very knowledgeable person,

but recently I have been asked by a Chinese writer

ok. Recently, recently means two or three days back,

she is trying to compare the performance of...

there is a feeling ok, there is a feeling

that the Indian Science and Technology

has come down in the last two or three years ok,

from...as to be precise, from 2014 onwards.

Has come down? Come down.

Ok. As compared to 2014, 2013...like that.

I see. And she asked, she is going to write it in nature,

this. She is...you know enlisted to write in nature.

So, she asked me...she wanted to...she wanted to get

opinion from people, she is not taking opinion only from me,

some 20 or 30 people from India.

Even Balaraman is one of them. The previous Director of...

but Balaraman declined, I even talked to him,

but he declined. He declined, I see I see.

maybe for some reason, we will not go into all the reason. Yeah.

So, the the conclusion that they...we came,

ok, it is not yet published, so I cannot say this is the conclusion,

but mostly what we are feeling here is,

the Science and Technology that is being practiced today

in India, for example, the new faculty,

let us take only IIT. Ok.

Very small segment.

The research,

I am not denying the research has to be done,

that is not a question.

But what they are doing is,

what they have done in their post-doc, or

whatever they have done in the Western World,

that is what is being practiced here. I see.

So, that is...we...that is why this science was

growing in this country, because we were

practicing what is feasible in this country.

Not only that, new things...new things New things and feasible.

Because the...the people who are directing

the research were from this soil. Yeah.

Now, the people who are directing the research is

displaced people from other places. Yeah yeah.

So, therefore, that...that...the...the, I am not denying these

are all very modern thing. For...for example,

I will tell you an example, the material that

we are now looking for, one of the material is

the oxygen reduction electrode,

it...it is a very exotic electrode ok.

If I know how oxygen is getting reduced,

I know about the life, I can tell you how long I will live,

on what day I will die. What is that? Again.

Oxygen reduction...because...that oxygen

only because we are only consuming oxygen. Yeah.

And the oxygen is combusting our food. Right.

Carbohydrate. Right.

So, therefore, oxygen has to get reduced to O2 minus

O2 Yeah, yeah.

has to get reduced to O2 minus.

This reduction reaction has to be understood.

If this reduction reaction has been understood by our scientist...saints,

that is why they were able to predict when you will

die and all those things. Right.

Now, we are not able to do that. I see I see I see.

So, therefore, the...this is an...it is a very electrochemical

reaction, that is all. Here, two electron transfer,

two...an oxygen atom. It is a four electron transfer,

but we will not go into the details.

So, therefore, this is the...the it has to...it...

is it now available electrode is platinum,

but in our body, there is no platinum.

So therefore, there is some some bio

biomolecule that is doing this.

And we should repeat...repeat that

biomolecule in a...in a material. Yeah.

So, the the material is FeN4,

it is a iron phenanthroline complex. I see.

The phenanthroline is nitrogen containing compound.

So now, four...four ligands of phenanthroline.

Therefore, with the structure of the final compound will be FeN4.

For chemists, it will be a very wonderful material,

because there is no valency, nothing is satisfied here.

So, this FeN4 is a very important material in the United States today.

Anybody who is working on FeN4,

they will be given the grant from NSF.

But we cannot afford to use that,

we...we...we, I even published a paper in 2002 or 2003.

On FeN4. I see.

Showing that it will be a very good oxidation...

oxygen reduction electrode.

This, you will ask me immediately,

even if some few students were asking when they read it,

why you did not continue?

At that time, the facilities were there,

only I can do...only theoretical calculations,

I could not do an experiment at that time. The...

so the...and even today,

we cannot afford to do those those research here,

you can publish. Yeah.

And get some name and all those things,

that is all very different,

but what is there...they...outcome for this country.

Ok, now...again I will...and...it is...see the,

I told you that we had Russian visitors and all that.

You know we were one of those who...

who got at least a catalysis laboratory.

You know, one of the Russians came and spent more than a month or two,

remember the name of that person? Ermakov.

Not Ermakov.

There was a junior scientist,

who came and worked in our lab for 1 month.

I don’t remember.

1979, you were very much there. Yeah, yeah.

I am not able to get his name.

And we...in fact, I introduced him, to nitrous oxide.

I told him...see he was interested in Catalytic Reaction

and all that and I said ok

you...we had...we had purchased all that

the various parts required for building a chromatogram.

So, I told him, you can set up a chromatogram,

and you can show the student.

Then I told him, see,

three or four students are working on nitrous oxide decomposition,

you just get used to that and he worked with them.

He was very...he was very friendly with all the students,

even went with them to part of South India and all that.

I am not able to get his name, but I will tell you,

he was the person who later patented

the oxidation of benzene to phenol, using nitrous oxide.

Now, you remember the name?

But, I know this reaction, benzene to. Yeah, yeah the...he...

the nitrous oxide was the...

he was introduced the nitrous oxide by us

in my...in our laboratory because I told him,

he asked me, "Why are you interested?"

I said one reason we are interested, is a very simple reaction.

So we can do a large number of compounds,

we can investigate and we...it tells us about the

Redox behaviour and so many other things.

Anyway, that was different, you were doing carbon monoxide oxidation,

these were the two things you were developing.

But just remember, the type of catalyst we tried,

or the type of oxides we tried,

they later received importance in materials chemistry.

For example, the cation A4 structures,

and remember you were working on the manganites,

do you remember what we lost in the manganites finally?

That was the... This.

This Nobel Prize has given in 1980s and '90s, manganites. Yeah, yeah.

What was those? Again, I forget.

That is a Perovskite Structure. Perovskite Structure,

you see the...substituted.

Yes. Same thing, cation F4.

I was doing the B-side substitution, whereas,

A side substitution, it was done

and they got the CO3 plus.

CO3 plus, I had also observed it,

but I had no way of checking it,

because I did not have X-Ray photoelectron spectrometer.

Remember, we tried to do that for the first thing with

that student Madhavan? Yes.

So, who is no more. We...we

XPS with that. Yeah, XPS of that.

We actually, even now that is a fertile field,

we looked at the satellite peaks,

not the main peak. Yeah, yeah satellite position that one

that’s what I said, you see there is...see,

do you at any time,

not that one should get a Nobel Prize or anything like that.

If one of the thing which is being

pointed out again and again is,

India has...it says it has done this thing, that thing,

it has not produced Nobel Prize.

And do you believe,

at least because you have worked on various thing,

that then we might have reached a stage,

reached a stage where it was

going to fetch a Nobel Prize, but we did not pursue it.

Ok ok in the in the next few years, we will be...I mean.

No, no it at least even earlier, we had worked on areas,

Yeah, but. Later, we let...we left it out.

Nobel Prize is a very different question Sir,

we will not discuss that one ok. No no not

like that, for not...Nobel

that we got it or not,

because at that level of research,

we have been doing, Yes yes.

That’s exactly what I am asking. Definitely, definitely.

The exactly what I am...just like you said that

somebody in US said that, 67 percent of storage

and you proved that it is nonsense.

Same way, when somebody said a nickel compound

was showing superconductivity,

just like the copper compound, and then,

only two people in the whole world has reported it.

And then I asked one of the co-workers and one of the students,

one of the Professors who reported,

do you agree with that one?

He said, "Whether I agree or not,

my Professor and another Professor,

they claim they have observed it...superconductivity."

I don’t want to name,

it was a nickel compound, corresponding,

not the copper compound, nickel compound

and the...one of the scientist of course, an Indian

another was an American scientist.

So, what I am telling is...that such things do happen.

And I know of times when you were very depressed,

say when you were about to publish something,

or about...and somebody else has done something,

or, you are not able to do something,

because of lack of facilities and all that.

And I think over time you must have got over all those feelings.

So, what is your programme, for the next next

two or three years?

Ok, next to two or three years,

because you may be knowing, that at the moment,

my worry is about the Indian Science, that’s all ok.

That is why we are conducting a course called the Orientation Programme.

Orientation Programme is meant for research scholars,

even the DST has many times ridiculed me,

what you can teach to a Ph. D. student?

Teach. Ok, Ph. D. students will... Students current...

the course were conducting now? Yeah yeah

it is the seventh...18th year.

Continuously 18 years, I have conducted.

Which department?

It is the Catalysis Division, a Catalysis Centre.

Oh, I see, oh I see this catalysis...no.

That is. I not...you are now a guest faculty while coming, so, I thought you were

only doing that. No no no it is a...it is Catalysis Centre,

it was done...done on behalf of the Chemistry Department

from 1999 onwards.

I see. This is the 18th year.

We will, at the at the time I used...because the fund is required,

because the research scholars have to be brought from various places,

Some 30-40 research scholars will be brought here,

kept here for 3 weeks or 4 weeks,

and they will be given an orientation to research in catalysis.

I see. And we have trained about 600 to 700 people

in this 17 courses,

out of which, 300 people are top class research scholars

in the world today, and they are all with...with the

in communication with me,

day to day not a...a stray communication.

I mean... They come on...online and discuss with me,

"I...we...I...I we are doing this research, whether it is...

can you give me some suggestion about that", and all that.

This is spread internationally. Yes

and that is one thing, in...in...it it is not

international because it DST Funding,

because we...we cannot sponsor the candidates from abroad.

No no not candidates the...

The students. The candidates who are trained are abroad now. Yeah

That...the...the students have gone abroad,

because they, Yeah, yeah. They did Ph. D. and all that.

Now, even...even foreign students have attended this course.

When they applied for this course,

I used to tell the, "We will take care of your local expenses."

That is. "But we can we cannot give you the travel allowance,

you manage."

So, they spent from their pocket and attended this course.

Is...from Germany, from USA, from...from Australia.

I see. Is it publicized in any of this?

I do not know, the, but it is even now

it...in the next course is 18th course, its starting on December...

the November 27th.

I see I see I see.

DST has...very well recognized this now.

As a matter of fact, wherever DST exhibits something,

they will talk about this course only,

first...the first to projection will be on this course only.

Oh, I see, I did not know that, I see, anyway I am not.

Anyway the...leave it alone.

So, therefore, this is one thing.

Second thing is, we have...we have now launched

at least about...this year itself, that is be...2017,

we are...we are in the 4th online course.

Nothing is required,

all that you required is a computer that is all.

I see, online.

This is for educating people.

This is the second thing, we are doing.

Third thing that...I...we are doing is,

since I have some facilities to write,

I...I write a many books, even now there is a book,

if I tell you, you will be surprised

that title itself, 'Carbon Dioxide to Chemicals and Fuels'

Right. Because carbon dioxide is a waste, that is what people think.

But, if I were to take the carbon dioxide

and can convert it to...to chemicals and fuels,

I am closing that cycle.

But it is going to be a technology,

30 years from now, or 20 years from now,

but I have written a book now, on that.

And one of the leading publishers of the world,

look...looking at the title, they approved it, nothing else.

Not...they did not even ask me to give a...

usually they ask two or three chapters.

Yeah. They...the...the top manager told,

"No no, we don’t want any chapter from you."

Oh. "We are agreeing to publish it,

so, you complete the book and send it to us."

I see ok, now, I know that right from the inception,

up to now, you are connected with the

Catalysis Society of India,

in various capacities, and it...it’s continuing.

Now, what will be the future, of course,

you are leaving it in good hands and going.

You must have conducted a lot of QIP programmes,

and FIP programmes and all that.

So as you say, we are now doing this Orientation Programme

which is...now you also were involved

some time...about the Library Science, in the sense

before all this...the present thing of talking about the...

what is that...citation index and what is the number?

Impact number. Impact factor. Yeah, I know

all that even before that...that American who was

bringing out that Current Contents, what is his name?

The person who started all this

along with Arunachalam. Yeah, yeah Arunachalam.

One person, I forget the name of that,

he visited IIT once. Yeah, yeah.

So, he visited and you had arranged a lecture.

He just now passed away.

I see I see. two...one...one year back.

Great man, some starting with G or something like that.

Yeah. I am forgetting the name, and you had written some

ways of classification and all that,

you have written some books also, I mean...articles on that.

Now what is your...that number?

Citation...Impact Factor.

Impact Factor, what is your impact factor?

Not impact factor, that number,

the number of times the paper is quoted,

so, what. That is what is the...for the journal, it is Impact Factor,

for the individual, it is Citation Index.

Now? Now, it is also there Google...Google is doing that.

No no no not I am not talking of this

impact factor, the citation index,

but then from that you derive another thing.

There are many other term terms that can. No, no

that is you; I saw. Immediacy index is one of them.

How, how immediacy is your research is there.

So, in then...for example, if I publish a paper today,

the next two years, whether it is seen...seen or not.

I see, I see that also is there. That is...yeah yeah yeah,

this is called immediacy index,

there are many index indices. No no, but you have

you...other day I was asking you you told me something your

number. There are many many many.

No no more than 70, what is that one?

What is the number, number of papers have been quoted

so many times. Yeah, yeah.

What is that number known as?

What is that you...

That is. You are talking of the impact, I am not talking of the impact factor.

Impact factor is for the journals.

Journal. So, it is not citation index,

based on the citation index,

you evaluate a number,

that is yours its coming to 70 or something like, that

you are telling scholastic.

I don’t remember now.

We got Professor C. N. R. Rao’s 300.

Yeah, yeah I remember that.

What is that number? What is that number known as?

How is it your also forget the number...

that’s a number which everybody quotes,

Because for Bhatnagar Award, you should have at least 25.

Yeah, yeah. So, I remember that one,

that’s why I am asking here.

And if you are more...you were

fellow of more than two Indian academies, the,

I think the Government will give some 50000, 15000 rupees or so,

I think, possibly DST give, I don’t remember.

So, that is something many people would like to...

are trying to get.

Mister Kumaran, I wanted to ask some questions to...

Kumaran Sathasivam: Yes, Sir. Sir, can I ask you about

Kumaran: what IIT’s reputation was in '64 when you joined it,

Kumaran: as an M. Sc. graduate, how did you...

Kumaran: what was your perception of IIT at that point because

Kumaran: in that student circle,

Kumaran: was it well known as an excellent institute as...? Oh, no no.

Kumaran: And how did you apply and what happened? Yes,

Kumaran: I just wanted to know about that, Sir. I applied because

I knew one of the Professors in Madras University at that time,

he recommended me to join IIT,

because he came and taught me in M. Sc. in Saint Joseph’s.

So, B. S Thyagarajan, he only introduced me to IIT.

So, when I...when I came, I...

I have seen all the convocations in this Institute. Yes.

From '64 onwards.

Oh very good, very good. Ok

so, the...anyway that is a different thing.

Yes. So, at that time, IIT,

especially IIT Madras ok,

I will talk about IIT Madras because IIT Madras is one of the top IITs,

there is no doubt about that ok.

So, at that time, IIT Madras was not very well known.

So, therefore, those of us who are the first few batches,

we have to make an advertisement for IIT Madras.

I have made some...that attempt also.

For example, in the rural areas at that time,

the JEE was not even known.

Kumaran: Yes. The, the village from which I am coming,

it is a very...very knowledgeable village,

but the...they did not know the JEE.

In the...in the...the first batch or second batch,

the M. Sc. is the...B. Tech. students,

at least five or six of them are because I told them to write the JEE.

Kumaran: Ok. That is how the IIT glo...glory comes,

I am not see claiming that I did the whole thing ok,

that is how the IIT glory of...IIT Madras glory came up.

The...the because at that time, we were coming from villages,

and...villagers were not even knowing that there is an IIT.

And they even if they know IIT,

they did not know how to apply for JEE

and...write the JEE

because JEE system, even today,

because even now I am...is somewhere connected with the JEE

ok. JEE is not with IIT now,

the main paper, it is with the Government

Secondary Education Board,

but anyway we will not talk about all those things.

So, therefore, JEE is a different...

different cup of tea for all...all the Indians,

that must be very...very clearly known to us.

So, therefore, the people from the villages,

they did not know about JEE at that time.

Now it is known...that...that is because now it is 50 years.

Kumaran: Yes. So, at that time the JEE was not even known.

In spite of the fact, my village is one of the well...well...

well exposed to other...other areas.

Kumaran: And...and you chose to join a relatively new institution in

Kumaran: in favour of a larger organization. When, I...

when I...when I joined, Kumaran: Yes.

There was no room, only cement bags were there.

Kumaran: I see. I see.

I...I...I do not know whether you remember,

I sat in a room, where in a...in a...in a...one side of the room

only cement bags will be there.

Kumaran: I see. With the cement.

Kumaran: This...this was BSB Sir?

No no...HS...HSB.

You. No he...by the time we joined, we had moved to HSB. HSB right.

He have had moved to HSB. Right.

Now, they...the...the things were getting added,

there was no German equipment I think,

one by one we started getting by other fundings.

But our laboratory was

better equipped than mess...most of the laboratories

and I...I hope you will not mistake me,

if I raise one of his hands for your sake.

See this finger,

his interest in the laboratory,

one day he started a motor,

and then the motor was not starting.

And he didn't see that the switch is on

and he started rotating,

his...his finger got...under got cut.

And then it was collected...it was thrown,

it was collected put in liquid nitrogen,

he was rushed to the railway hospital.

But, unfortunately, by that time I think it was

it had decom...I mean the...it has started deteriorating.

So, they could not...

I mean I always remember you know,

a part of that finger is gone,

it happened in the HSB laboratory. So...so

Kumaran: So, what was the. Thank you.

Kumaran: Can, I can I just add a few more questions, Sir? Please ask.

Kumaran: What was the procedure for selection to a Ph. D.

Kumaran: you joined the Ph. D. programme when you came to IIT first

Kumaran: and who are the staff members who,

Kumaran: I mean the faculty members who interviewed you and.

At that time. Kumaran: I mean Director.

At that time, the three stalwarts in the Chemistry...or four stalwarts

M. V. C. Sastri, J. C. Kuriacose,

V. Srinivasan and C. N. Pillai, Aravamudan

these are the five people who grilled us.

Really grilled us. And also we have this examination,

at that time also the same type of examination,

and the examination is...used to be very very tough.

Actually, even now I remember Kuriacose to...

Did you have viva voce or?

Viva...not viva voce, written examination only.

Oh, you had a written exam I see...I see.

Five papers we have to write. Alright.

So to. No no for joining the IIT thing

you need not... No, no.

Joining was only interview. Joining only...joining was interview only.

Yeah. Not written exam.

Yeah. Right.

But after joining, the qualification

for...for example, Kuriacose paper,

none of us pay...passed, only I passed.

Ok. All the three of us, three of us we were there in the...in that batch,

only I passed, that too because I took a challenge with him.

Kumaran: And about your wardenship, you said you had a

Kumaran: term as warden,

Kumaran: how many years and which hostels you were in?

So, ok I...I spent first as a Assistant Warden,

Cauvery, Krishna, then as warden in Ganga Hostel,

then as Chairman Counsil of Wardens.

So, therefore, nearly 30 years I was associated with... Kumaran: Ok. The hostels.

You were also connected with Gymkhana.

Yeah, yeah Gymkhana Cultural Advisor,

Weaker Section Advisor,

many...many roles. No, you were,

I think in this sports day this one,

his photograph has been put in the...

on the...in our...the portico.

I...because. You can. I was Dean Students also.

Dean Students...I Dean Students I think he was.

Kumaran: Right. Be in that so.

I occupied all positions in this Institute. Right, right.

Is there that person there? So...

Kumaran: Yes, yeah.

Is there anything you want to ask him you are.

And B. V., Some of your...some of the books

that you have written, and if you have a spare copy,

at least general books, not exactly on subject

things that we would very much like to have it in the Heritage Centre

and we don’t mind buying it also,

he is prepared to buy it,

but then if you can give it Yes. As a...this one

because we are collecting, you are an alumnus,

so, as an alumni, we would like to collect all those books.

Spoken to you and then elicited lot of information

and I think, if there was another chance,

I would have spent a few more hours with you talking about this.

Thank you very much.

Sir, thank you. Thank you, thank you very much for giving me this opportunity.

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