Prof. N. Rajagopalan and Prof. R. Radhakrishnan in conversation with Prof. Kalyana Raman (Retd. faculty, Dept. of Civil Engineering)

We are here today

to record the Oral History Programme

with the Heritage Centre

with Professor R. Radhakrishnan

and Professor N. Rajagopalan

from the Civil Engineering Department.

I am Kalyanaraman from also from Civil Engineering Department,

very thankful to you for joining us this afternoon sir.

Professor Radhakrishnan you are one of the

earliest faculty to join the institute way back.

So, will you please give a brief outline

of how you joined the institute,

what your background was prior to joining the institute.

At the time of your joining

there was an interview. Yes.

Can you, can you briefly play out

what was - how you were interviewed

in those days for a faculty? To be very frank

first time I was interviewed in Vice Chancellor's chamber, it's called, A. L. Mudaliar was the Vice Chancellor

he was the Chairman of the Board of Governors.

so the meeting was held in the interview was held in

Madras University, Vice Chancellor's chamber they call it.

I think first time I was not selected,

second round second time only I was selected;

I don’t know the reason for that one.

Second time also I applied

the main reason for that one was

at that time Madras University had 70 percent and above was

First Class, no I got 74.5. I was put in Second Class.

So, I remember quite remember asked me

I got this one class called First Class, do you know?

Yes, sir I don’t know what happened,

then we reshuffled our degrees,

they made it 60 percent First Class

and we were given First Class degree.

So, second time when I came for an interview,

I was First Class MSc,

this 1st rank, of course, that is always there

they don’t bother about 1st rank,

they want First Class at that time.

So, I was not selected first time,

second time I was selected. So, who were all the

who were all there in the committee selection committee? Committee at the time

A. L. Mudaliar was Chairman here. Professor -

Doesn’t matter if you don’t remember.

I remember But

were they Chief Engineer Madras ...

Chief - everybody was there I remember.

Where it says tested at that time more for your

teaching abilities or research abilities when they interviewed? No, only teaching.

Only teaching ability. Research abilities.

It was a time when as I just interviewed

Abraham was the Chief Engineer of Tamil Nadu

and A. L. Mudaliar was the Chairman.

See as far I am concerned

I joined institute in 61, December.

At this at that time Civil Engineering faculty

strength was 7. I was the 8th faculty to join.

And, earlier I was in Irrigation Research Station

Pundi as a PWD staff member.

Back in 59 when the institute was inaugurated

at CLRI campus, I was a

student leader of College of Engineering, Guindy.

So, I was invited for it ... as a student

when we see such a big function, was elated

and saying that I should become a member of IIT,

that was my motivation.

And, I didn’t know about how teaching is

going to be or how research is going to be

or industry going to be.

But with all that that A. L. Mudaliar was there,

Nehru was there to inaugurate - Jawaharlal Nehru

was there - Pandit Nehru, for I was motivated to come.

From Pundi I applied here

and I was only B.Tech degree holder

that is a BE degree holder,

BE Honours was the degree

for me because after certain about 66.56 percent

you are getting a degree called BE Honours of

the then Madras University College of Engineering Guindy,

as one of the rank holders and therefore,

I was called in for interview.

The interview was at CLRI

because there is nothing here, interview was CLRI.

The Director Sengupto was the Chairman,

A. L. Mudaliar could not come on that day

and it was even for the Associate Lecturer's

position the Chairman of the Interview Committee

was the Chairman of the Board of Governors.

And, the expert member I do remember

happens to be my own professor at

College of Engineering, Guindy.

It was Professor V. Kalyanaraman

and I was pleasantly surprised to see

a known figure on that panel.

And I was the first Associate Lecturer to be selected

at college at IIT Madras

and afterwards, within 6 months from that day,

the rank of Associate Lecturer was made temporary.

Therefore, we had only 3 Associate Lecturers

in the institute as permanent Associate Lecturers.

And I was the one amongst them

and the first amongst them,

I joined the department there were only 8, 7 faculties;

I joined as 8th and I was the youngest

of the faculty members of there.

And, afterwards the department developed

and my motivation I have already told you

because of that meeting,

that made me come to this place.

So, you have said you attended the

inaugural programme of the institute

in you know where was this held? At CLRI campus.

So. It is between A. C. College and CLRI,

no in CLRI and A. C. College. A. C.

Yes, it's a big area open,

even now there is an auditorium there.

At that place a big pandal was erected

and Pandit Nehru was there to inaugurate.

As a student member

I was invited for that and I went there.

Do you remember anything that

professor you know Nehru said on that day of inauguration

anything that I was too so young for that to understand

that what he is talking about. Ok.

But, he was talking about

see originally he made one mention -

College of Engineering, Guindy, was

to be upgraded to IIT,

that was the first intention.

When the IIT system was thought of

when it is a, as it was announced that meeting, Kamaraj wanted

two good institutes in Madras itself,

that is at that time Madras, Chennai

that’s Tamil Nadu, Chennai and all were not there.

Two good institute he said that

we would have one more institute

and that will be institute of technology that’s how

we got IIT Chennai separately,

otherwise it would have been

College of Engineering upgraded to - I mean IIT Madras.

But, it was decided to have that

and that's - that was mentioned in the meeting,

when, it was I think it is the Education Minister

it is C. Subramaniam I suppose.

I don’t remember the name of that time,

but the main aim is to have one more institute.

And, I think as you said Kamaraj was

one main force behind IIT Madras coming.

Coming to Chennai. Chennai.

Not only that actually the this thing

the reason is not that correct

in the government wanted to have the administration control.

Central government. Yes, no the state government.

Administration control they wanted to have it

which the Central government refused. Central government.

So, IIT was started, otherwise I would have gone to

Guindy Engineering College. Ok.

That is the main reason. Ok.

Now, the both of you did not have a PhD

Yes, yes. when you joined IIT Madras.

Thing things have changed a lot

since then, now things are very different. Yes.

Can you go through your joining this department,

how you had to qualify yourself

to be in a PhD, both of you got

PhD. Actually, it is really interesting

I got only BE degree - BE Honours degree -

when I joined, then I found that

all of theirs faculty members are MSc

and I wanted to qualify myself for MSc

and ask for leave just after 1 year.

And, that time they said we are going to start M.Tech

and you, you can do part time M.Tech,

that was the assurance given by the

then Director and Registrar Natarajan,

I met him personally

and both the Director and Registrar, they said

why don’t you do it here?

Because, to get an admission at Anna University,

that is then College of Engineering, Guindy,

for a postgraduate programme

the admission is based on so many reservations,

it's very difficult.

I was fortunate to get one;

therefore, I was pleading that I should get that,

the second is at that time it is 18 months

programme for a postgraduate at

College of Engineering, Guindy.

Whereas, an IIT started the programme

started straight away with 2 years;

that means, I will be studying for 6 more months

they said for part time, it will take 3 years for you,

for was one and a half years

I was going to be delayed, if the degree is that.

I pleaded and they said, no, we cannot send

a faculty member of IIT

to College of Engineering, Guindy. Right.

If at all, you have to resign.

I didn’t feel like resigning and therefore,

I stayed back for I was the first

part-time M.Tech student of IIT Chennai

and IIT Madras.

In Madras IIT Madras.

Even today it is IIT Madras Chennai only.

IIT Madras Civil Engineering

Department or IIT Madras itself Civil Engineering.

IIT Madras Civil Engineering Department. Ok.

It was the ... then the Head of the Department

was also one C. G. Swaminathan

was the Head of the Department,

when I was interviewed.

By the time I joined in December

He left. C. G. Swaminathan has left

and Professor K. A. Shankaran was the

man in charge of the department,

he was an Assistant Professor.

And it was in 62 Professor Varghese joined

Professor - May, June of - Varghese.

For the Structural Engineering,

whether to start a Postgraduate in

Structural Engineering was in question.

Because, Professor Rouvé was the professor in hydraulics

and therefore, they were sure to have

a Postgraduate in Hydraulics

and Water Resource, there was only Hydraulic Engineering,

but when Varghese joined the as

Head of the Department they started structures also.

It was a - it was a tough time for me

whether to join Hydraulics as well as or structures.

Since I was in Irrigation Research Station Pundi earlier,

Rouvé wanted me to join Hydraulics

whereas, I wanted to stay in Structural Engineering.

So, after lot of discussions I came to

Structural Engineering, that was a

part-time program for an M.Tech.

At that time PhD programs were not there

at all in the institute

because there are not enough research

Degree holders in the institute as faculty members.

If I remember correct, total faculty

strength was less than 100,

all accommodated in Building Sciences

Block - only less than 100.

I would say that Civil Engineering had 8,

Mechanical Engineering may have about 11 to 12

and that’s all the department.

And, all ... not many

I don’t say even 1 or 2 had PhD in that;

only in Science Departments

Professor M.V.C. Sastry, Professor Rama Sastry

and Mathematics professor at that time S. K. Srinivisan

and earlier team is. Adiga.

Das, Das in this case. They were the persons

who were having PhD degrees.

Hence, there was no question of research

being started at that age.

This should be guided by - Guided

There is no research guidance facility,

though the ideas were there.

If I can talk a little more on that,

it was that the period was stated

to be by Professor Sengupto,

let us stabilize education,

B.Tech degree education goes

and development of the institute;

that was his intentions of having

the first few years' activities in IIT Madras.

Yeah. Hence, the research was such

was started little later

when A. Ramchandran took over as the Director.

We will come to the research also.

So, you went on finish your M Tech.

yeah and then went on to - when did you do your PhD?

After M.Tech, I stayed for 3 years as lecturer here,

then I was...there is a Institute Scholarship

for DAAD: Scholarship for faculty members

and it is for 1 year, extendable for one more year,

2 years. In fact, very many faculty member at that time

Yeah went on to do

Went on to do PhD in this thing.

Not PhD, they were...the contract

or the agreement signed between

the German government and Indian government

is that they will finish that PhD only in India

and they will get the degree only

in Indian Institute of Technology

and they can have their training in Germany.

Accordingly, all the members

who went there were going there for 1 year

a little more than that,

but I was keen in doing a PhD there.

Therefore, I didn’t go through this institute route.

Secondly, amongst the Civil Engineering staff,

I was the junior most.

Hence, the chances of getting into that

group is also, was very difficult.

For I went through the Government of India’s

scholarship scheme, wherein there were

at least 10 candidates were selected per year

to sent, to be sent to Germany.

I was one selected in that group

and therefore, I went to Germany in 1970, 69 and 70.

And, I decided to do PhD.

There was also some difficulty because,

the department has given me leave for 1 year

as usual for then, 6 months extra

then I said I would prefer to go on - leave on -

Loss of pay. - loss of pay,

but the institute said no, as a policy

we should go leave with pay for 18 months.

I went there and then I used the influence

of the professor at Germany

to get it extended for next 6 months they gave me,

the institute also paid me for the second year.

When I applied for the third year institute,

then Registrar C. V. Sethunathan

sent a very very strong reply,

very strong for me as an youngster.

Said that you better return to the India immediately

or get out to this institute immediately,

you choose between these two;

such was the wordings of that letter.

I showed him to my then professor at Germany

he...see, he with all this experience

for me it was not a - rather than a threat,

for him it was enjoyable joke.

And, he said don’t bother we will make you -

He talked to the German consulate

and also the German Ministry

and he said that I have decided to

offer him a PhD here, Dr-Ing here;

please tell me the procedure

by which we can get it done.

They said the procedure is, as far as

we are concerned, we have no problem.

But, we have problem from the Indian government.

The Indian government again refused to say

that you cannot get a degree from Germany,

you should get a degree only from India.

And therefore, they said extended

the scholarship for 6 more months,

2 years and 6 months, please advise him

to go back to India for

doing to completing his research.

And I was keen in getting a German degree,

I told my German professor

if that is the case I would resign from IIT Chennai.

Then also a letter came saying that

if you were to resign, you have to pay back the

salaries paid to you for two and half years.

It's a very huge sum for me

and therefore, as in a dilemma

once again the professor,

German professor came into discussions.

He wrote to the Indian government that ... the ...

if the main aim of IIT is to,

for development of academic activities,

I should see that this letter is withdrawn.

And, it was the Director then A. Ramachandran

who said yes the letter is withdrawn

and I was asked to do that.

But, Government of India

refused to give me scholarship,

because they said that as per the

agreement between two ministries,

we are not supposed to give

for more than two and half years.

For the - I was supported by the Department of

Civil Engineering or Structural Engineering

in Stuttgart University.

And they gave me assistantship for 6 months

and I completed in 3 years

and one of the shortest period, completed in 3 years.

And also last 2 months because the

viva voce or what we call it as viva voce

there they say, that’s called a mündliche Prüfung mündliche

Prüfung and that was delayed

and they said for the 2 months

professor himself gave his support for me,

personal support from his consultancy assignment

for completed and then he came back to me.

He was also offering me a job in India

in his company which was

having a work at Calcutta, cable-stayed bridge;

he can say that you can go and join there.

I said no, the institute has done me so much,

I would not like to leave the institute

and came back and joined institute.

And at that time there was a small back home

the Director Ramachandran left the institute

and Professor Sampath was holding incharge

and the director's position was not defend,

interviews were held, number of selections were made.

And afterwards the final, of course,

I was not interviewed,

but selected in the - based on my application.

I joined here - the - the date of joining

the rank of Assistant Professor declared,

but I was not allowed to join as Assistant Professor

because I left the institute as lecturer.

I was join - asked to this - join as lecturer

then I got the Assistant Professor

and then the actual research for activity

as that is the PhD research then the,

my own research is only from that onwards.

Sir how about you sir, you also joined with an MS

and then you got a PhD.

That was in engineering, Structural Engineering

College of Engineering, Guindy.

So, after that, here as so the registration was there.

Of course, we have few people

after - Dr. Professor Varghese joined the department.

So, one PhD must be there - they guided

and we registered for PhD.

So, first batch of students,

staff members sent to Germany.

I was one among them,

but it was only for 1 year.

See, I have, we have to get trained, do the work

and then complete it,

come here and complete that's the condition.

So, of course, I was having a family

So, I didn’t want to continue there forever.

So, 1 year it was extend for another 3 months,

I was in Brunswick.

After 4 months language course in small village

where the population was about 1000,

400 people and 600 cows.

Then I went back to ... Brunswick,

where my, it was Brunswick institute was

connected with this Structural Engineering Department:

Professor Eibl, Professor Kordina, all those things were there.

So, I was there doing my research work there.

I completed almost except the major part of it

the small or the other one I have finished.

And I came back with all my things in 19-

I think I went in - even forgot - 67 I went,

69 April I came back,

but it took some time for me

to complete because that model

I have to make a real model

and then very small this one

and then it is a big shell

actually it is a mathematical cum

this one Experimental life.

Experimental. Both very difficult

Actually I forgot ... you didn’t mention the name of the

institute where you do PhD.

I did my PhD in the University of Stuttgart. Stuttgart.

Institute (unclear) University of Stuttgart

So, I was from Brunswick I came there.

It took quite some time for me to complete the work.

Of course, after that

the ... those days two Germans must be from abroad,

not in IIT one Indian one foreign now.

At that time both exams was abroad

and then the viva will be conducted in India by two examiners.

So, one examiner was very quick

in sending his report then 2, 3 months

I got my the other examiner took just 2 years.

2 years again Yes.

ok. That is only a luck,

there can’t, before that everybody

who went after me to Germany got their doctorates

and got their promotions, everything else - I was -

Ok. The - the - flavor of the department

or the constitute of the department

that you joined when you mentioned that

there were only 7 faculties.

7 - 8 - 8 faculty along including And - and - from you are including.

And in the early stages you know

how was the department?

You know today the department is probably about 50 you know. Yes.

Yeah. So, how was the department in those days?

See, there's only a Civil Engineering Department as a whole,

now, we have Structural Engineering Wing,

Water Resources Wing etcetera,

there are only Civil Engineering Department.

Those 8 consisted of 2 - 1 person from Hydraulics,

1 Assistant Engineer who was working as

Assistant Engineer in this institute

was also teaching here leading to

I mean Estimation and such subjects, he is doing that.

There is no recognized person in Environmental Engineering,

actually 1 Hydraulics man was there - Panduranga Rao,

in Survey 1 man was there, Nagaraja was there. Nagaraja.

Structures, friend Radhakrishnan was there

and Dr. D he was again not Dr. Victor,

he was Mr. Victor Johnson, he was there

and so, from Soil Mechanics

and Highways put together

was under the control of Professor Shankaran Shankaran.

that was. This was the earliest of the faculty

members in the department Yeah.

as we know it. Actually I was - I joined

the department 63, 68. Yes.

And, I think you were a faculty

at that time and even I was a faculty at that time,

I do remember that I have

taught you one course on Structural Analysis. Yes.

Myself, I mean I taught

and I could remember your face

as well as M. S. Venugopal.

Yes. Who happened to do his PhD along with me

and you two were the quote unquote Yeah.

"Bright students of the class"

which I was, very well remembering that.

Now, there was good, very good this one,

I had very good innings in

Civil Engineering Department no doubt about it.

To give a small example,

last year I was going - I was in Bangalore,

my son is in Bangalore.

I was in Bangalore, I was going in Namma rail,

Namma Metro I was just travelling

with first batch Sujith Chandra,

who was a board member

and railway board member. Railway board member.

He came to me and said he was very much

attached to me, I don't know the reason,

he said we will go sir

he was in charge of structural of

you know. No, I would very easily

say. Namma Metro.

So, we were going.

So, we were going the train

myself, Sujith Chandra, and V. R. Nagaraja;

the man who I helped him in survey in those days,

because he has some language problem,

he is a Karnataka man;

suddenly one student came,

sir do you remember me?

So, suddenly if you ask me how do I remember.

Sir, I was your student in IIT Civil Engineering,

my name is so and so, thank you very much.

So, he was so happy and then at the end

you know what he did,

sir I should like to take a selfie with you.

Good, thank you very much.

I think many many faculties from the institute,

they do; this just happen you know

people suddenly happen. Train.

Suddenly at train. See actually there are only 16 students

in the first batch,

for everybody there are only 8 faculties and 16 students.

So, staff ratio is 1 is to 2

and you are so, closely associated

and my advantage is

my age group was very near to them.

Therefore, I was to be fact

one of the students who finished his

BA Honours in Mathematics,

when I was intermediate

he was my classmate intermediate.

He finished his BA Honours

and come and joined BE B.Tech here,

by then I joined as a faculty.

Therefore that was the intimacy of the student faculty,

it is very interesting for us.

In fact, even the campus was very small I remember.

Very small. Very very small

I remember that you know the

that the hostel that came into existence.

Cauvery and Krishna. Cauvery and Krishna.

Tapti hostel. No.

And Tapti came later.

Yeah, when I joined.

Professor Shankaran was the warden of the hostel.

Oh. You know when I joined

Professor Shankaran was the warden of the hostel.

No, it was - The ... actually, in those days

how was the department academic structure

different from later? For example,

as you were mentioning that - that -

the Director was concentrating on building an institute,

so, very many of you were involved in

building the departments of the institute,

can you share your experiences in that ...

No, I was 61 I joined

67 I was sent to present abroad.

In the meantime, the 6 years, the department was

very well coming up, only in teaching.

There was no absolutely research is fully

Yes but teaching labs were coming up

Yeah. So, you were involved in

that kind of - Yes exactly already I was doing that

So (unclear) I have been to actually

Materials, Metallurgy. Applied Mechanics

So, concrete lab was there

and the other small laboratories (unclear)

because, there's no space.

The Building that was Science Department

only bottom was there

so one more information, Kalyan

that is, at that time

Civil Engineering was not assured of the aid

from the German government.

That’s why other departments had the laboratories developed

by the German assistants,

where Civil Engineering only

Hydraulic section had the German aid.

We didn’t have it.

For the development of the

concrete laboratory as well as -

it was not Structures Laboratory -

Concrete Laboratory with facilities

to test success was developed by indigenous things

and all for it was really slow in its development.

I remember even when I was a student,

we did not have a Structures Lab. It came up subsequently.

73 only we gained Structures Laboratory,

at that time it is in 1970 the German aid for the

Structural Engineering was assured. Yeah.

And that time only Professor

Plähn was the person. Ok.

And, Karl Kordina from the Brunswick,

where Professor Radhakrishnan was there,

was the coordinator from that place

and Plähn did the development of the laboratory here.

Can you just for example,

from, let us go a long distance

from the time you joined to the time

the department you left,

can you just - still - what were the major changes

that you yourself experienced in the process?

That is I - 61 I joined 93 I left,

32 years. I was only in the Civil Engineering Department.

So, the department in 1961 was not even there. Yes.

And when you went in 1992

you had the Structures Lab?

Structures And probably even

had the Dynamics Lab, is also already Yes

So, there is a change -

so. I had my students in Dynamics only.

For PhD. 2 students they did.

Actually one military man was there

I think, Ambodkare Right

I met him even last time, Mysore,

he is there, still. Both father and son

took degree on same day: he took his PhD,

his son took his B.Tech another day. Bachelor.

So, this development was very good

very fast at that time we can say

because, the early stage always we go very fast,

beginning. So, I can say I was very lucky also

you can say, you can say fortunate also,

but one thing was, I couldn't digest

still is the delay of my PhD, terrific it was.

I had the worst part of it that time,

it took nearly 4 years.

Submission to get the degree, nearly-

There is - there are students today

who take 6 years to finish PhD. No

No, no no 4 years from the date of submission

to award the degrees. Award, understand.

That is the period.

No, but total - total time was how much?

Total time I joined the middle 61, I joined.

PhD programme, you joined the PhD programme,

but Germany - from that time

to From that time, 67 to 72, 5 years only.

Because 72, I got my degree. 5 years.

So 5 years No, no, many people took it in

two, two and half years.

I understand but at those days -

Yes. But there is a - The thing is no the reason is I tell you, very frank,

there is nothing wrong in the -

it depends upon whom the thesis -

When thesis goes to. Yes.

That is the main thing.

So, one man sends it within few months,

other man sends in few years

So that- that helps a lot

Your experience in terms of

how you changed the department See,

changed - the department, see...

Can I go? As I joined, I was also

put in charge of the Concrete Laboratory.

The Concrete Laboratory was the

smallest material testing laboratory.

Therefore, we... whatever equipment

available in India, we were able to procure.

Money was not a problem for (unclear)

Only thing is, getting it abroad for major equipments

Sorry. we had difficulties.

In 70s whereas, in Hydraulics and Water Resources,

the German aid was there.

And, hence the ... a full fledged Hydraulics

Engineering Laboratory was built up,

as the one is the workshop based like that,

wave flumes came up

and lot of experimental facilities

with German equipment coming in was developed.

Whereas, the other laboratories

it took time. There was one senior faculty

who came from Madras University,

there College of Engineering Coimbatore,

Professor Dr. Mr. Muttayya who was very much active

in getting models or the specimens for Geology. Yeah.

And with his personal influence

he could develop the Geology Laboratory.

That is a - We used that. I remember still

the Geology course where we have - Geology Laboratory

with his personal influence

and he was more motivated as a teacher -

he had also written a book on that -

and he developed the Geology Laboratory.

It may may not be bad to talk about Dr. Muttayya

because I remember him as a student,

he is one who took lot of interest in Geology area.

But, he was also active on the campus

you know, in those days

there used to be a canteen.

He was in charge of the student

canteen. No, he started a cooperative society.

Cooperative store. Cooperative society.

So in fact, we as students used to

be able to buy books and things like that

from the cooperative store,

we used to get that book. No no,

Muttayya, he has at least - he has

at least about 20 years of experience

before he joined here,

at teaching at Coimbatore Institute.

And, in engineering institute

of recently good repute,

I mean a reasonably good repute.

Therefore, he knows the necessities of the students.

And he was well poised with the students

and he started a cooperative society for books,

and stationeries and all,

which the students found it very comfortable.

And, he was monitoring it

and he used to sit late in the evening

in the cooperative canteen

no, cooperative stores Stores.

and it was so economical for the students

to get the things from there,

one cheap and available in our campus itself.

In fact, those notebooks used to Thus.

have the IIT Madras printed on top of it.

Among the students in the city

it was a prestige to carry those notebooks.

So, I remember some of my friends from the other colleges

they had to come and buy the notebooks

from the cooperative store and take it out

and flaunt their institute,

I remember that. It was in - that was also in Building Sciences Block.

No, no, the -

Is laid outside - ...is in that. That was very interesting.

The Structural Engineering section -

I was talking about Hydraulics

and Geology Laboratory developed.

So also, Soil Mechanics which was

partly Highways and Soil Mechanics.

Since, the staff member or the person

who was in charge of Soil Mechanics

came from Central Road Research Institute;

therefore, the development started

in the Highways section first,

because Road Research Institute -

he was Professor Shankaran was

so much involved in the Road Research.

Therefore, the bitumen Highways Laboratory started

and it developed more than Soil Mechanics Laboratory.

Therefore, the next laboratory which came in

in a bigger way was Highways Laboratory.

Of course, Concrete Laboratory was developed

reasonably well because the equipments

available more in Chennai itself.

Therefore, we could purchase that.

That was the development of survey.

In 70, when the grant came

from the German government

for the Civil Engineering Laboratory,

Professor Plähn was nominated

or was sent to this place by Professor Karl Kordina

to take - to be in charge in the laboratory.

And, reasonably good coordination

with Professor Plähn, Professor Varghese.

Professor Varghese did not interfere in that

and he was just allowing Plähn to develop the laboratory.

Then Professor P. S. Rao who joined in 1967,

who was put in charge of that laboratory

from the Indian side. He had already got experience.

He had already got the experience from the Munich laboratory

where he did his PhD and he knows all the facilities

which is Munich laboratory.

Therefore, he wanted to have a replica of the

Munich University Laboratory, University of Munich Laboratory

under Professor Rüsch, that was one.

And, Professor Leonhardt came to India

on a - for a specific conference in Coimbatore,

he visited Madras and stayed about 5 days here.

And therefore, his input and also gave the facilities of

the development of laboratory as -

give - as done in Autograph Institute in Stuttgart,

for this particular laboratory was having the input from Karl

Kordina’s laboratory at Brunswick,

Professor Rüsch's ideas from Munich

and Professor Leonhardt’s ideas from Stuttgart.

But the model, the physical layout of the laboratory

is from that of Brunswick and it was done that way.

There was also an idea

whether to have a strong floor which is a -

which is a self straining system, but that was dropped out

and then we had a strong floor on the top

and supported by walls in the basement.

So, the basement could be used

for storing or some other purpose.

That’s the first laboratory.

Meanwhile, we had developed indigenously

structural testing systems in the

Concrete Laboratory itself which were then moved

to the Structural Engineering Laboratory.

And the advantage we had was

Professor T. P. Ganeshan and Dr. T. P. Ganeshan who was also

only Mr. T. P. Ganeshan didn’t do his doctorate,

he came from Highways Research Station at Chennai at Guindy.

And Highways Research Station in Tamil Nadu

was one of the - not in Tamil Nadu - in India,

it was the best Highways Research Station is in Tamil Nadu.

They had a big workshop also

and a workshop which can be thread

diameter say about 40 mm.

Diameter rod can be threaded easily.

We got it threaded at that place

and brought it here for making a self-straining frame

which would have not been possible,

if had not been T. P. Ganeshan there

and HRS available for us now.

These are all certain advantages with recruiting faculty who are

already in service somewhere.

Professor Ganeshan, Dr. Ganeshan moved

from HRS, therefore, we had the facilities of HRS also available

not with great difficulty, but easily we could get that now.

For things moved positively

in way in Structural Engineering Department with that laboratory

came into existence in 1973 March I suppose.

May I just interfere? I remember, some of the colleagues

subsequently when I joined the department,

I remember some of the colleagues

of my age had physically worked in

the laboratory setting up and it is just you know.

There That I was telling you.

Professor Aravindan. There are three associate lectures.

Aravindan, B. V. Subramanyam And Achyutha.

Achyutha - they were all - they worked up to midnight,

not even early morning hours for pouring concrete,

checking the concrete because the thickness of the floor,

the accuracy with which the holes

where the rods have to be threaded in

and it is - it should carry a 10 tons force.

Therefore, the accuracy was very important

and it was not given to the mechanics of the floor.

It was given to the faculty members

and therefore, faculty members were

working along with the mechanics.

Yeah, remember. I was given time morning 4 to 8,

I ask Varghese why you are using

I know you get up very early in the morning.

So, you come at 3 o’clock and be here.

So, faculty members physically present Present

ensured that the labs came you know.

That’s so, its a heavy duty floor.

So, today it's not - it's not - imaginable because we have sufficient

infrastructure outside to make sure

construction goes on, faculty members

give the specification. They are not involved,

but things were different at that time. yeah

They are physically involved.

See then only it will come up, no doubt about it.

You mentioned that the department was

initially education based. Yes.

Undergraduate education-based. Yes.

Obviously, today the institute is very different.

In fact, we have a larger number of

you know, postgraduate students

in the institute than the undergraduate students.

So, the flavor of the institute has changed.

Can you just, you know, kind of see how

or mention how you saw the changes

from a Undergraduate Teaching Laboratory

to the Postgraduate Research Institution

over these years in your experience? Because basically it's a -

we start only teaching first

Anything - First of all, I remember when I graduated,

I did not even consider doing

postgraduate study here. Yeah.

I went abroad and that was because

that was just not a research culture in 1968 at that time.

And, as you are mentioning

there were not very many faculty members also

with the PhD and over the years

things have changed. Yes.

So, I just want you to carry on. But

the moment we joined the institute

first, actually Professor Sengupto

had asked, in one of the many of the interviews asked me.

What were you doing other than teaching, first question.

I said, I am teaching, this course is going on

Other than teaching what are you doing?

We have to keep our mouth shut

because there is - no facility was there here.

Even we were not registered for PhD at that time.

Then I told Professor Varghese, somewhere

next time I go and tell my registered for PhD

So, with the great difficulty we registered for PhD.

Now, we can say we registered, I registered long back

because wherever 10 years we can say.

After that only I got my degree.

So, that was - starting always trouble will be there.

So, at least at that time there was - if nothing else -

there was at least an intent Yes.

that the faculty should get Should get into a -

Research Programme in greater size. Yes.

No no. So, the research was the background of the

institute director has given at instance. I will interfere here

When A. Ramachandran took over as the Director,

he said that mandate for anybody

for getting a promotion is a PhD qualification.

That’s what I was talking - And that was the starting point.

Every - every faculty was interested in registering for PhD.

Of course, we did really have good PhDs

in Science and this departments.

In Engineering Department, specifically in Civil Engineering,

not many PhDs there in 60s and 70s.

If I make a name in 60 when I come out of the college

I know only one doctorate in Civil Engineering

was Professor S. R. Srinivasan

of College of Engineering in Guindy. Correct.

And that was the only doctorate the name is known to me,

other than nothing. Professor Varghese did PhD

and all was around that time only.

What I mean to say is the total PhD

in engineering itself was small.

At IIT the motivation was by A. Ramachandran was that,

if you finish PhD you get your promotion immediately. Yes,

that’s not a joke. That was the first thing.

And therefore,

the faculty research - actually there were not students - the faculty

themselves were participanting or doing their research

in the laboratory till late in the night to see that their PhDs are there.

And the research guidance were - guides were very few,

therefore, number of faculty registered under one senior faculty

had to do a lot of work, research work to see that PhDs here.

So, from 68 to 73, the - that culture was a necessity

for the PhD staff members to do PhD in addition to teaching.

To mention there was a time

when I was doing my M.Tech, not PhD -

out of 40 hours of the workload

that we have, we used to have 36 hours of

either doing research or doing teaching

or doing by ourselves studies,

that was the timetable that we used to have.

And even research scholars they used to work

one I think it is, first research scholar. Do you remember

who is the first research scholar?

First research scholar is B. V. Subramanyam?

No, no. From IIT Madras.

Keshav- Fully from IIT Madras.

Fully from IIT Madras Civil Engineering Department

is one Keshavan Nair - Sukeshan Nair.

Sukeshan Nair. Sukeshan Nair.

Who - he did - nearly 93 specimens tested in Concrete Laboratory.

Unimaginable because the money involved in

pouring concrete and 93 specimens, he did.

And In which one, what is his area of research?

Concrete frame corners. Frame corners.

Frame corners. Frame corners.

And he - we had - actually I used to tell them,

he had 2 big volumes of his thesis. The theses were 2 volumes.

2 volumes to send abroad number for him.

Number 2, next was Professor Ganeshan, 1 volume,

next was myself - 70 pages.

Actually, the Professor - Sukeshan Nair's

thesis was evaluated by Structural Engineering Research Centre

Director G. S. Ramaswamy. G. S. Ramaswamy.

He was one of the examiners. He said

so much of work, so much of volume of work for one PhD?

he asked him in the viva voce

because, what is the requirement of doing PhD

over one PhD was not well defined.

For, everybody is afraid saying that

we should get it without any difficulty, do as much as possible.

And, Sukeshan Nair was - I think his patience

I should appreciate, because I was in charge

of the Concrete Laboratory and any minute

I will see that Sukeshan Nair will be demanding for manpower;

whereas, I should allot manpower for others also.

And, since is the first PhD students the research

came into picture after Ramachandran said

that it is a must for you to have a PhD for going to a promotion.

Therefore, if you see from the records the faculty doing PhD

and completing it was the maximum in 63 to 73, in 66 to 73.

And actually, subsequently,

Then PhD is joined. people were ... yeah.

People were taking only with the PhD they were -

So, there was a transition. No, there was a joke also

from class 3, class 4 post, class 3

if you want to come instead of PhD, IIT Madras it was there

So then actually I remember, what I am saying is Class 4 to class 3.

very many other institutions have

gone through a similar transition Quite possible.

in India. For example, when the RECs became NITs. Yeah.

They went through similar transition. Prior to that

there was not an insistence on research in this institution.

So, very many faculty did not and then when it became NITs,

people were started asking what is your research output

and the faculty had difficult time you know to be able to show.

So, all these national institutions

have gone through this type of phase-

the - what are the differences in the administrative

structure of the institute from the time it was established,

as you went through the department

to it in, can you kind of touch upon that?

Before that - You were actually also a

Dean Administration. Yeah

Dean Administration. So, probably - you should I don't have -

you should say What I would say is

I would put it in a different way, that is, the structure of the institute

was academically oriented, research oriented,

with administrative staff with minimum till around 68, around that.

Then afterwards this administrative building came up now.

Then we had one floor reserved for account section

plus trash, one floor for administration,

one floor for the Director’s office at the top

most floor along with senates room and all,

one floor for engineering unit

and one floor for counselling to say. Academic.

Academic. These are all this thing.

Then since the research degrees came, were to be awarded,

there's a research wing, there is a - Course wing.

Course wing. Then we had two wings;

one course wing and research wing.

Earlier, there was only one administration

which took care of administration and academic activities.

One superintendent will be there for academic,

one superintendent will be there from administration

then they were made Assistant Registrar.

That was the time when it was in 64, 65 and all.

Then afterwards academic separately done

and because the examination pattern

etcetera etcetera were also changed,

question papers were set internally

and that has to be monitored.

And, we had equally - equal - I mean, weekly examinations

that has to be monitored, then the periodical system.

All those things were slowly developed

from 63 up to say, let's say, 70s no no.

That brought in very high academic responsibilities

load on the institute. Therefore, academic section grew.

Simultaneously, the workshop

and other areas we had the class 3, class 4

staff numbers increasing because

the Research Departments wanted workshop for itself.

Every department wanted an workshop.

Therefore, there are mechanics, instrument mechanics therefore.

The administration of all those things

the so-called class 3, class 4 sector

was in the high and it was around 500

and odd at that time, about 70, sometimes 70-75 like that.

When it came to - when it is around 90,

not 90 - it was in 78, 79 when Professor Indiresan joined,

he said there will be Deans

who will take into the- take the responsibilities;

for one is Dean, Academic Affairs,

in one Dean, Academic Research Affairs,

another Dean one Industrial Consultancy,

one Dean for Students and then one Dean for- Administration.

Dean Administration. Dean Administration,

These are - that's not Dean Administration

This was a Dean Administrators, not called Dean Administration,

it was - yes it was Dean Administration. Earlier to it, it was called

Professor in Charge of Faculty In charge of -

and that was considered Dean Administration

because for a few- As far I remember,

Indiresan is the one who introduced the

Deans at that time. Dean system at the institute

yeah And for each dean

there will be one unit

where will be representation from each departments -

student member, board of students, board of academic courses,

board of academic research, like that.

For, each department has to spend

send one faculty for Board of Research,

one faculty for Dean of Academic, Board of Academic Courses,

one faculty for Dean of Students,

one faculty for Dean of Industrial Consultancy.

For, each department represented

in those deans and then deans

who will look into the overall development

of that particular area

and that was how the development

started in administration. Would you say; would you say, that this is

if you say, that he started as an institution

which was a top-driven to an institution

which became little more democratic

in terms of its representation, administration,

I think would you say that this is the transition?

Where, for example, I remember when I was a student

Heads of the Department was always there,

he has a permanent position and he was pretty powerful

and by the time I came back as a faculty,

Head of the Department post was no more permanent.

It was a - Rotate.

- 3 year duration. i Rotate so.

And, also this type of representation

of faculty input into the administrative -

That came - as well as the -

That came in - it started in 73, 74

with professors-in-charge. Right.

It they were not Deans, the professors in charge of various wings now,

we had a separate curriculum development cell Right.

for various department that was not amongst the deans

and there was - You were also in charge.

No, no, no. Curriculum development cell

Curriculum development cell was not there.

By the time I came joined the institute,

the dean's positions had come, you know.

So No, no there was one professor -

curriculum development cell was there I remember.

Then there was cell for what is that - you are doing this

editing and all those things is for - Matthews was there, what is that?

Photography, something connected to that,

I don’t get the name for that.

Professor Swamy do you know that, there is a department - one -

No sir. One, one establishment was there.

It is around 73 the industrial consultancy

after the 68, 73 period when research was given the weightage.

In 73 it was said that

you should also participate in the industrial consultancy;

so, that your input must be available for the industry,

for industrial consultancy was started at that time only,

and the deans came into picture only in 78, 79.

There was also industrial consultancy. From 73 to 79,

the mode of operation in the institute was:

percentage of your work will be in academic teaching

and research, percentage of work is

development of research activities,

percentage of time is allotted for

10 minutes consultancy - that was the allotment of time.

Each department has its own method of

allotting the time for the faculty

depending on their interest and ability,

wherever they can put more efforts,

but the output for the department shall be maximum.

And there was a student evaluation

for the students - that was for the teaching

staff. That was introduced late 80s.

No no that is in 70s. late late 70s,

Late 70s. Late 79 or 80.

Indiresan period, Indiresan period. Indiresan period.

Therefore, therefore, what happened is, this demarcation of

various areas was available only after 75, 78 -around 78

which means if you say a democratic way of running the

institute - When I say democratic, I meant

Atmosphere. you know input came

from the users of the service. Yes.

You know earlier the input was not there from users of the service,

earlier, somebody at the top, you know, knew what was - and then that was

Oh, that was in 70, when it came to afterwards

when I was also having certain other responsibility later

there was a necessity of- Have a break professors.

Sir, have a break. I think we are sitting more than -

Yeah yeah can we just - he wants to - just wants to have a break for some time

Yeah, I will complete this Ok.

There was a necessity of difference,

see the institute has grown big, the class 3, class 4 staff

were large numbers and they need lot of money.

They needed lot of money, therefore,

they went on borrowing from outside

and borrowing at an interest rate of 25 percent, 30 percent.

The staff member; you mean the class 3, class 4 staff members.

Staff members. Right.

Then, I think it was Professor Kuriakose

of the Chemistry Department,

who said that this should not be allowed.

Because the person who collects the money

right on the first of this month,

he will be right in the beginning of

administration block at the - at the - start of administration block. The loan sharks.

And - and -sharks; therefore, we started a thrift society

to whatever it is worth it. Thrift society.

I remember, I remember.

Therefore I, I was in charge of thrift society also. You were you were in charge of thrift society.

And when the times when the deans were appointed,

there was also Professor in charge of Engineering Unit.

Because, originally Engineering Unit was headed by

one superintending engineer, afterwards

superintending engineer cannot be, I mean,

deputed from the central government.

They had to have their own engineers,

therefore, we had one professor

in charge of Engineering Unit with executive engineer down below.

For, there were areas which are headed by separate people like -

There were different centres were there.

Different centres were also there.

Photographic Centre was there,

there was a Curriculum Development Centre was there.

I don’t know 2 or 3 centres are also there.

That is the way in which administration developed.

Centre for Continuing Education.

Continuing Education. Continuing Education.

We have been talking about academic activities

associated with the institute, but you all have lived

in this campus for 30 plus years. Yes.

And, you had other hobbies other than

the academic activity, and also campus life.

Can we touch upon that?

You know for example, you have stayed in the

campus for longer time also. Yes.

Can you touch upon

what you think is the value - for example,

most of the faculty I know

consider as a perk in working in IIT Madras

is the living on campus. You know that thing -

living on campus is a perk which nothing else can bring to us.

So, what’s your - what’s your - take on that?

My thing is, the, my life in campus for 32 years,

it's very very wonderful, no doubt about it.

In that, after 1970 I had come back from Germany,

I had contact with Professor Kumaraswamy

who was in the Madras - Yeah, I was going to come to that

you know Kumaraswamy as a faculty has done

lot of Metallurgy Department.

spirituality Yeah, spirituality

right. That's what.

So, that life was evening, institute life,

but even I was, that was really wonderful,

where nobody can get it anywhere

even in Madras. I remember number of

you learned Veda from him. Yes correct.

Not only that not only that one,

now I am present as IIT only now,

I don’t - nobody knows me as Radhakrishnan

in my - in my family or other community,

IIT is coming they will say as personal fact I am like that.

But, he made us expert in all - many questions

you ask. either in this one also, he will answer

unfortunately he is no more, I know you know that.

Professor Karaswamy he was a faculty in Metallurgy

Department. In Metallurgy Department he became Assistant Professor,

he took his MSc here also

and then he didn’t complete his PhD,

he didn’t want it perhaps.

But, outside the office hours after 4,

he was very helpful in framing our

general questions, many things. About life.

About life, many things no doubt it,

we had regular classes

in nobody many people didn’t come

of course, you can say there are 600 families in IIT

how people made use of - that is different,

that is purely personal.

But, what whole people use

they made very excellent it was.

Actually there was one Raman;

I don’t know whether you know him

in Mechanical Department - professor. I know.

He was the man who I remember

who didn’t go to any teaching profession

or research profession after his retirement,

he followed only this one.

He gives lectures in Tamil in Madurai

and I was in touch with him

that was brought by him only,

that type of life also was very useful

no doubt about it.

You were also part of that. The life

in IIT Chennai, I mean campus

has been wonderful. See, everything

everything is available inside the campus.

The shopping centre, though small,

took care of the immediate necessities

in the campus and

if at all we can go to Adyar and do it now.

Therefore, our, the faculties' members life

was enjoyable. As far as the ladies club

ladies are concerned there are ladies club.

They were also mixing up with other ladies

and they are having a really good time

and a level at which they are able to move around

and talk around and all. They brought them

to a higher level of culture itself.

And not looking at local politics

and all those things, they are able to discuss

things better - as a free citizens of the country

to that level the entire campus has been - So, did the children.

So, did the children. So, also the children.

Children had education in the K. V. School, Kendriya Vidyalaya here

and which is a cosmopolitan group of people there,

other school Vana Vani School

which is an excellent campus life -

that we have had all these things

added to it. Made it difficult to go out of the

campus after. Very very difficult that’s why

you see even people who are retired

they would like to stay as much as

possible inside the campus.

And those who got into a position called emeritus,

they would like somehow get into the place

and - that was the attraction of the campus

and still it is there.

And we, as Professor Radhakrishnan said,

we had additional advantage of

a leading us into the spiritual

life of doing it and understanding that.

See there are so many things

which are being done in the society as a ritual,

but what Kumaraswamy made us understand is

is it's not a ritual, please understand what you are doing.

Please question yourself whether things are right or wrong,

if you find it wrong unless you are feeling it right

need not have to do it, please look into that.

To that extent he has brought us to that level.

Along with it, the ritualistic part also,

citing Vedas and attending functions

for the festival research, that has been excellent.

Even today, the people in the temple

will definitely feel that the

culture in the temple has been

brought up to this level.

In those days when Kumaraswamy was the

Head of the- faculty here, he was also Head of the

I mean President of the temple samajam

for some time and the temple's

growth and its activities today

is comparable to any one of the

bigger temples in the society

and they have been doing well.

I think nothing to criticise or nothing to

comment about the campus life

and the negative side,

if at all you should say yes

here is the campus which has to be humiliated

anywhere else that is how we should say.

In fact I remember, most of the faculty member

coming from other IITs also appreciated

the greenness of this campus.

Yes. This is one of the thing that’s outstanding

about the campus - the campus has

maintained its greenness over these years

in spite of the growth, and it has been,

in fact, I was told when I became a student here

Professor Sengupto decided that the

roads will go where it kills the least amount of trees.

You know, in those days people

would not even know about ecology or environment.

But, he had the vision to say that the

campus will be built such that

it will have the greatest least amount of

disturbance to the existing flora and fauna that’s one.

You know we have some problem of the temple also -

it's not that easy -

when Professor Dr. Ramachandra was Director,

one day there was - he called me

He said Director wants you, Director wants you.

I said I won’t meet Director, I don’t know

I am not in the - I told him frankly -

I am not in the inner circle of the Director,

why does he want me, I don’t know, he wants you to. Talk louder, sir.

So, next day - there was no telephone those days,

house whose connection as much there

somebody came and said Director wants.

So, next day I said I will come 10 o'clock,

he wants to meet you.

Then I said the question was nothing is there,

who built this temple?

There is a question in the Parliament,

I want the answer in 3 days Radhakrishnan,

he said you are the Secretary of the Temple Samajam.

So, I want to answer the question

the following 4 questions that was

approved in the parliament also

because, there was no other thing else.

So, it came up on this one

and it was constructed by

actually the architect was only that Y. S. Ramaswamy, the

The then superintendent engineer. then superintendent engineer.

But the temple, there was a

there was a village temple that exist. Yes, yes there was a temple,

There is a temple. Just lingam was there. a lingam was there. There is - only a lingam was there.

So, what he used to do is I tell you

I was there from 61 before I was there.

What he was doing is the people who

finished all the contractor workload

the balance material I used to put in the temple,

just to put it - like that it was constructed.

No, he didn’t collect anything money

from anywhere outside the

those balance things don’t throw it outside,

put it inside and go away.

It was constructed like that

and went developed all these big

things Shankaracharya Swami came and blessed this one, that's all.

It came up - now, it has got a very good name

outside, remember I want to tell you because,

I am also; even yesterday I was here the temple,

I did some puja yesterday morning. The question came because of

so-called secularism in the parliament.

And afterwards it was it was Part of it. So, I answered the question.

it was also answer to that effect saying that Yes.

secularism does not mean no religion between that is the thing.

If - if somebody has asked for certain other facilities

who could not have been denied.

There was an Ayyappa Samajam

inside the temple itself. It was there.

Therefore, it's there, therefore,

there has not been any differentiation in the temple

that was the answer given

and it was accepted by parliament.

You know I have been here as a student

and then I had also joined back as the faculty

and I was used to be called as a 'baccha'

of the department because,

I was the youngest faculty at that time.

And, I have seen both the student side

and the faculty side of the campus

and I think one of the thing that

kind of makes a difference in this institute is that

student faculty relationship, you know,

it's never been an adversarial relationship,

it has always been a friendly relationship.

Faculty look at the students as something that

they are trying to facilitate their learning

and the students see the faculty as people.

There may be exceptions to this,

but as a general rule, there has been a very

congenial relationship between faculty. Definitely

students in this campus no doubt about it

and that is something I think

that needs to be spoken about you know.

And, it's a - it’s one of the reason why

the education takes place in the way

in the environment that it is taking place.

The other thing is - I remember

as soon as they came back to join faculty,

Indiresan was particularly interested

in the student faculty interaction.

And, part of the type of interaction is also

in Civil Engineering Department, the Civil Engineering Association;

Can you - the Civil Engineering Association

been very active you know in the department

and in - in fact, every year students

the students and faculty used to choose a topic

and debate that topic in the Civil Engineering Association.

Can you just reminiscence any of those things

that you have been involved in,

can you remember that you remember that?

But I was the man who is inaugurated

the Civil Engineering Association,

Professor Varghese asked me already

you had experience in Guindy Engineering College

why don’t you inaugurate? Alright we started,

but afterwards as you said

every year we used to have some meeting,

get together all those thing

as it was very good you can say. No in fact,

I remember one debate was

whether students who are

leaving the country to study abroad or staying

are they - are they - forsaking the country.

You know this is a student on faculty,

students spoke for and against,

faculties spoke for, against;

we had a nice discussion.

I think these are the type of -

We had student interactions with faculty very well,

because not only in Civil Engineering Association,

so many activities we had. Yes.

Hostel day celebration - there will be regular visits

for the hostels from the faculty members

meeting there, lot of discussions.

Non-academic discussions also will take place,

students will say what shall we do after doing it,

they will take suggestions from the faculty,

an open ended suggestion.

It does not mean that they've got to do it and all,

such a atmosphere as there and unless

we see something negative we will not be able to say

this is the beauty of this now

and we have been looking at always this positive side.

You have gone outside and have come.

Therefore, if you say that this is a

this has been positive here,

then I think we should accept. In fact, I remember the

other way also

the, there used to be a time where we

used to have a students come and visit our family

and spend some time together used to have together Right. That's what I said.

and I remember even today some of the students will come

and say you used to have us for Diwali.

You know those are the type of you know

interaction that we had

and that’s - that’s - one of the nice feature. That is

one of the things that even those days

when the institute was planned,

hostel wardens were located the hostel zone itself.

There were only 6, 7 hostels at that time

therefore, there were 6 warden. Certainly.

Afterwards it has grown big and therefore,

the wardens are somewhere here.

Otherwise the interaction with them was

students going to the warden and warden going to the students

yeah every time, it's very comfortable.

For example, Holi is one of the festival which is

very permanently you know yes

and it's one of the nice programme where student faculty interacting.

So, there are nice facilities for it.

As such we have seen only

positive side of it and therefore,

we are not able to appreciate so much

as a person who has seen a negative side

and then able to see this.

Both of you held some administrative posts,

I think you were Head of the Department

for some time, Head of the Laboratory for some time.

Both, both and - and then you were also Dean for some time.

Can you just share some anecdotes,

just an incident which kind of brings out

the intricacies of the position,

that you had, just one incident if it comes to your mind.

Otherwise, you can specifically talk about -

See, one of the thing that when I joined

the institute is, I found that

the amount of time faculty members spend

in other than academics,

in administrative work, in the institutes, I always felt was high.

You know it was higher than most institution

that I have been used to.

And in fact, I remember that when I was a faculty in the US,

I probably would have never met the President of the Institute

and the Dean, I would probably middle of engineering

I would probably meet once in 3 months

when we have a faculty meeting

and Head of the Department probably once a month.

But, I found that things were very different here,

we spent lot more time in the administrative set up, you know.

So, the, each of you in your position as administrators

how do you, do you feel that that was

so or what was it necessary

or could there be a change in terms of the

amount of administrative load on the institute?

Two things I would like to mention.

One is about administrative load

which you asked for I will come later.

As a Dean Administration we were - I was in charge of

arranging for the faculty recruitment and the selection process

and who should be called for interview and all.

We developed norms because, there should be uniformity

amongst the various departments.

In that process itself we found it difficult,

department to department there were difference.

Then for each department we developed around,

but the basic concept was that

the activities are to be taken as teaching

along with student evaluation,

research along with paper output,

publication output, and consultancy

along with turnover and also money

the money institute got. Funded Research.

Then, Funded Research,

then the projects that we got from Central Government,

these are all the areas in which -

Each department can say that

we will allot this various areas for the faculty,

but the faculties were also allowed to make their own decision.

The spectrum is open,

how much of time that you will allot for this

activity, this activity, this activity, this activity;

you can decide at the beginning of the year.

And, at the end of the year

or when you come for your evaluation,

what is your original decision

and how I would come up to that,

that was the item which we are referring to

for calling them for interview.

Because, the one person may be very good

at teaching, he must have got good records..

One person may be very good at consultancy,

some person may be very good at,

we need every area to be

same. But nevertheless, I think it's true

that -- the process of

actually there is no promotion,

it's everything you know every faculty come for. Everything is selection.

Selection, there is a process of selection

teaching and research take predominance

in the - yeah. That’s true

what we said is the allotment was

30, 30, 30 that is teaching and research put together is 60.

That is the minimum; you can have more,

you cannot have less than that.

Then consultancy, 20, and sponsored research 20,

this that you can change.

You can make all the 40 as sponsored

research and all the 40 as consultancy,

but the teaching and research has to

make 60 percent - that you have got to accommodate,

you cannot make teaching 20

and then remaining other things that was not allowed.

This was also notified to the departments

and Head of the Department was requested

to tell in the - Head of the - meetings of the faculty members

that they should present it.

When we evaluated the persons for calling

for interview because, you must have short listing.

The short listing by that time when I became a Dean

was little difficult in the sense

that there were already court cases in the institute

saying that you have not listed certain person for selection,

short listing should not be done by the administration,

it should be done by the Selection Committee itself.

And that was taken note of

by Professor Indiresan's time itself indirectly

in which he said 1 member of the Selection Committee

will be in the seminar which is being presented.

That was - that was - taken into consideration when I was a Dean

and, saying that there is short listing process

is also taken, that also was not inadequate.

It was not adequate because one case

came up afterwards, that at the time

when the seminar was conducted,

short listing has been already done.

So, what we had to do at that point of time is

shortlist it, send it to the Chairman Board of Governors,

get his initials first and afterwards

when the Selection Committee meets,

it is again told to all the members

this is the short listing norm, is there any other person

who is having a difference of opinion?

Then we give the entire set of applications

and look into it, that was done;

that was the administration procedure

standardized at that point of time.

So, that shortlisting there are no case arriving at it.

So, then. I am - I am - that’s kind of getting into the details.

I am just thinking in terms of the, you know, the

one of the, for example, you were saying dean administration's

responsibility was faculty selection.

I remember, Professor Indiresan, when he was there

when we are recruiting faculty

don’t think we are recruiting an Assistant Professor,

we are recruiting somebody

who is going to become a professor.

So, you look at him even at the time of recruitment

whether this is called a capability to become a professor

you know this is one No no that was the interview committee's

you are right. responsibility to say

whether this material is Is.

Worth for. Worth in this institute

to take any faculty position at any point of time

in future to the head of the departments Right, right, right.

and that is, it is not only connected

with his academic research

his overall development as a personality

we has to be looked into. That was the- But

I think more important was

whether he can become a professor,

you know because, not everybody

was expected to become a HOD.

No, no, not professor is very important person. So.

Dean, I mean Professor Indiresan used to say,

I am not important as the Director of the Institute,

the President of MIT is not very important,

but the faculty members who make

the department known outside is very important.

Therefore, do not look at the Director as the person,

you look at somebody else and say that this is the person

who would I like, he will be. In fact, I think

that's one of the thing that we find in India.

For example, just you were mentioning

the Director of - President of MIT may not be known,

but if Nobel Laureates are there, MIT MIT.

will be known outside the corner

and we have still not developed that kind of a culture No

as these institutions. that I will tell you,

That is correct. We are taken from the

we have we have come from the British culture.

Therefore, it is not so easy

to...because it will not be unparliamentary

if I say, but still I would like to be very guarded

in my statement and should not be misquoted.

The ethics in the society is the one

which makes all these things.

Because, if a person is true to himselves

and he would like to look at problems

from other's shoes, if they are able to do that

then he will be able to come a long way off, that is wanting.

And therefore, we need to have

to have some kind of a structured system.

Sir, that is true sir,

but on the other hand if there is often a statement

what should I do to become a professor?

It's a question that’s being

asked by all faculty members. Right.

And, I think answer has been, time

and again, that it cannot be in terms of numbers,

you have to show your ability to occupy

position of a professor in this institute by Why.

your performance, teaching research

at a level which is internationally recognized.

Correct. I would like to put that,

I had a question or I had a petition from one of the faculty

who was - who were looking for a professor's position,

he has appeared 4 or 5 times.

He sent a petition to the Director

which was forwarded to me, he said

what wrong have I committed,

I have done all these things.

You have asked that

you have how many papers etcetera etcetera.

Last year I did this much

and now this year I have made this much,

every year I show progress

and what is the effect of these things?

In the next interview, I have not been selected.

And, he also quotes somebody else

all these records and all those things,

it's very very difficult to satisfy requirements. From end actually

it is the Selection Committee,

finally, it is the Selection Committee. Selection Committee.

Process I say for, but there must be a faith in that. Yeah.

There must be a faith in that

and people should say the people sitting there

are doing their best in their positions.

And, similarly when a person is not being selected,

he should feel, yes something is wrong we should set it right.

And, there should not be a feeling of saying that

I have been dishonoured, something like that, this is the one thing

which is the plague in - which is the system

development, we cannot do it any way

further, it is very difficult. Yeah.

I don’t know if you have any other suggestion. No, no sir.

I say, with all these

questions, it will evolve. Evolution.

I was just going to ask

you have been Head of the Department. Often,

it is thought that Head of the Department

post is not very important or visible.

But, I have found that

time and again Head of the Department

make a lot of difference to the department,

can you, can you just corroborate

and then you know see what your No, I was only a Head of the Department.

opinion on that is. Quite short

very short my Head of the Department was

and so, I have not I can say

I have not done anything very big at that time.

Because, when Professor Krishnamurthy was away abroad,

I was made Interim Head of the Department.

So, all them want to came about

it to get about 3 months I was the Department officially.

You are Head of the Laboratory for some time.

I was Head of the Laboratory for years. Of course, so always

yeah, yeah, no problem. Can you say; can you say

do - do these heads you know Heads of the Department.

Heads of the Laboratory. Yes.

Do they make a difference to the department laboratory?

I don’t think there is any difference it makes.

I think it makes, sir.

Sir, it makes a difference.

I in my opinion. Now, what I am saying is.

For example, I think dynamic Head of the Laboratory

could make the laboratory function

differently from what it is because Function functioning.

see, one of the thing that IIT system has

is the ability to make decisions for yourself.

Correct. You know, it is not somebody

from outside who imposes their will.

For example, faculty of the department decide

individual faculty of the department decide

what kind of research they want to do

and the department as a whole decides

what is that they want to progress in.

So, there is a considerable amount of autonomy at each level.

So, given that Head of the Department I think

or Head of the Laboratory can make a difference

and I have seen that to be so, in time and again. So.

In my opinion, participation

in the Head of the Department in every activity

in the department which will be a strain

on his system because he has to attend

so many 3 or 4 section, is very important.

He should show interest in every department

with the best to the possible way

that he can, he should show.

Any research activity he should spend time

to understand that, it is not in my area

therefore, let somebody talk of it, it's not that.

It is the necessity of the Head of the Department

to have an overall view of all the sections.

So, in effect what you are saying is

Head of the Department can play a very

facilitating role. Can, can play

And, but then you know all play daily and all.

set and then individual faculty member drive their research,

but Head of the Departments

Yes, known to be. Head of the Laboratories can play a facilitating role.

But, sometime suppose we say the

Head of the Department is not able to

come into the field what he was doing. What to do?

For example, my case I was doing completely in dynamics.

So, the Head of the Department

was not able to do anything in Dynamics.

So, he has to get the help of from other departments,

that he can do it only by his influence.

No, no actually sir what I am saying is

when you are Head of the Department

you are really not evaluating the specific technical contribution,

but you are evaluating the person’s ability to do research,

that is what you are doing you know. Yes yes yes.

So, as it stands from, after all we sit in a seminar

when you know when faculty members are selected

and give you a feedback,

we may not be specialists in that area.

Nevertheless, we understand that

the - the thoroughness of the research

that the person is presenting

and things like that are the ones you judge.

In fact, one of the I think one of the strength of the IIT system is

at every level it places a responsibility

at that level to exercise the responsibility you know.

And, as a result I think we have been able to - as long as

we exercise the responsibility that we are assigned to,

the institute tends to be in good hands.

As long you know whereas, a person who is outside who is not

knowledgeable about what is happening,

so, but as you are saying that

such responsibility should be exercised

with fairness and with you know

with the interests of the department

or the institute in mind.

I think this system has progressed well

simply because the institute has had that type of facility.

The other thing is the culture of the students over the years

in both in undergraduate level and postgraduate level,

do you see any difference? Yes.

What would be the changes that you think are positive?

What are the changes you think are negative?

Maybe, I come to you first, sir,

we have stayed long here; what are your- No.

What are the changes that you say see in the

undergraduate students, talk about undergraduate student first.

Undergraduate students they are actually

it is difficult to manage because they are too young,

I can say when they come to the this thing

is about hardly 18 years or so.

But, they used to be young even They come; no.

when I - Right, right, wait wait.

Although where it's easy for us also to

to bring them to the line, this is not difficult.

Whereas, postgraduate students or PhD students is

little bit tough to manage.

So, I find the undergraduate students are

quite good in this one.

But do you see a change?

You know what I am saying compared to

when you joined the institute the undergraduate students

I find. and the change in today, undergraduate students.

I find, say, What is.

I find now I don’t know where

I have. No, at the time you retired.

At the time you. Retired.

It was - there was a - I find good change, it was there.

It was there What are the positive changes,

what are the negative changes?

Positive changes is you can say

first thing is they come, they came on their own to institute.

So, that thing always is there with them.

The students who join IIT Madras,

they came on their own,

no recommendation, nothing is there.

So, that thing always there.

That is all along That has existed all along.

That is there. It is there.

But the 50 percent of the students

who come after joining the institute, they come quite alright

and they do behave very well all those thing else,

I like them very much, no doubt about it.

I find improvement also after this

because, they become more matured

within 3 or 2 years, 4 years course.

At the end of 2 years they come alright

and then I find them very good in during the end.

I find them lot of - no doubt about it.

What is your opinion particularly with regard to postgraduate

students over these years?

The activities in which they are engaged

is beyond the activities of the department

and beyond the activities in which they should be engaged

You mean to say in you mean to say in terms of

programmes like Shaastra and Saarang?

All those I don’t want to name anything.

The activities that they are supposed to be engaged or

the activities they are engaged in is academic and other things.

Beyond this, their activities are there which is uncontrolled.

And, this is the one thing which is caused by the society

and no person whether it be the Director

or the Dean or ... would like to interfere in that.

So, that they say that they are left to themselves,

but they are left to themselves not as free citizens of India,

they are left to themselves as students of IIT.

Therefore, still the institute administrations

has the responsibility and since they are owning them

as students of that institute they should be guided properly.

Actually, sir, if you take a look at in

you know I remember the student governance

since one of the thing if you take a look at it,

IIT Madras also has got the year election

year after year on selecting

the student government and it goes on nicely;

you know you don’t see the type of- No, no, election

I am giving that as an example

and similarly, if you take a look at Shaastra and Saarang,

it builds their ability to organize quite extensively

and I, you know. for example,

in - in - in the other sections of this institute

where they want to get the student activity

they are trying to emulate Shaastra and Saarang

because they have set up a procedure

by which they organize events.

So, you know these - these are

successful programmes that they are able to run,

you, you want to say something as a concluding remark

if you have anything to say that

you think has not been discussed? Actually,

out of my 30, 32 plus 5; 37 years of service

teaching, so 32 years I have spent in IIT Madras,

out of 36, so, I had a wonderful

stay I can say and my stay was very fruitful

and my children are all well set up

no doubt about it because, we are IIT was

having all those advantages no doubt about it;

wherever we go somebody ask whether are you in IIT,

so many years. So, yes I was in IIT so many years.

And that’s why now people don’t believe

that I have spent I have left IIT 25 years before

1992 October I retired, 2017 October is coming.

So, 25 years since I left the.

But you still - IIT is fresh and new. Yes.

No doubt about it. Yesterday I was Say.

there in the I mean I would

See, my experience total experience

in the IIT campus is 41 years,

the longest that one could have it at that time.

Now, it is research the age of faculty is gone up,

now earlier it is 62, I had 40 years in this in this institute,

really enjoyable and very pleasant.

My daughter even now says the best life I have had

that she is now about 48,

she says IIT life has been enjoyable

And she tells everywhere wherever she goes,

she goes around the world, this is the best life in India,

if you want to have just go to IIT for some time.

The final word I would say given an opportunity

the Director permits us to come and join in IIT campus,

I will be free to join.

If the God allows you to become 20 years old again.

So, that you can go through this whole thing again. I - I

I will go through that. That is, that's next one,

but even to date if a facility is there

for if not a facility if the permission is there

that we should be we can have a

some kind of a small residence

in a single room apartment in this

you would prefer this IIT than But

anywhere else. but, we will lose the forest

if we do that we will lose the forest. No that’s what he say.

The actually the, you know, as I said

I have been a student here and the faculty here

and I have also seen how the

academic rigour has gone up over the years.

I remember that what was expected of me

in terms of publications and things like that.

To become an associate professor or professor

has considerably gone up today.

Today, the expectation of faculty

in terms of what they are suppose to be

publishing is much higher than-

Yes. So, the academic rigour expectations

from faculty has gone up over the years.

I think that's something that's

for a growing institution which wants to become an international

that's the direction we should move. Yeah, yeah, that's-

that’s only reasonable for the reason that. Yes.

Days when facilities were less, we were asked to do certain things.

Now facilities are available. Available.

Everything is got digital But, I

and think sir, on the other hand,

on the other hand, it is requirement and that everywhere

you should look a little higher than

what you are originally having a status,

then only you will be finding improvement

and it is. In fact I remember

Funded Research when I joined this institute

one of the thing because i was used to the American system,

I was looking for a Funded Research.

When I talk to my colleague they used to say

funding in Civil Engineering is - is unheard of,

you know, there is no funding in Civil Engineering.

But, today every faculty within an year of joining the department

has one Funded Research project with them...

So, that shows how things have changed

Changed, yes, definitely yes. over the years in terms

of the research culture in this institution you know.

And, the change in teaching in education,

I remember Professor P. S. Rao

one of the senior faculty

saying that when you were all students

and I - when I taught a subject,

I knew that you would go

and use the subject in your profession;

that is he was teaching Reinforced Concrete.

I- if I become a, you know, whether you become an engineer

or whether you will practice Reinforced Concrete.

But at the time of his retirement

when I go and teach the class today

I am not so sure because the students

half the students in this class will not be Civil Engineers.

And, most of the other departments also

say half the students in my class will not be

Mechanical Engineers, Electrical Engineers, Computer Scientists.

And, that in a way also reflects

how the country has changed over the

when in the long 40 years ago

even the opportunities in the area

of your engineering was low.

Today people have beyond engineering profession,

opportunities in other areas

and that also shows the way the country has- I would like to

add one point there.

I was with connected with industry after leaving this office

IIT for 15 years in the industry.

During that period the later part of that period,

I found an IIT graduate - he is not bothered about

Civil Engineering, Mechanical Engineering, he is the IIT graduate

can fit in any profession. Not necessarily Engineering,

Finance, Administration, any profession.

The training in this institute is good enough

for making a man near perfect

in any profession he takes it up with sincerity.

I have found that Correct.

as an industry and also in the professional world outside.

I think that’s also an indication of

broad base of education there. Yes.

Student to get exposure to. To that

Other than academics also. Other than

academic that is very important.

Ok sir. Ok.

Thank you very much for your time

and I think we had a good discussion.

Very good discussion.

Your experiences and thanks for sharing it with us.

So, we are really pleased

and it's a great pleasure for me to

tell you that our experience to talk about it To.

and being nostalgic about it.

We are elated to be with you today

and we thank you for giving you an opportunity. The best opportunity I had

I had both the things with my students.

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