Prof. P.S. Rao in conversation with Mr. Najeeb Shariff
Hello everybody,
my name is Najeeb Shariff
and it's a great honour for me
to talk to Professor P.S. Rao
and many people know him,
he was retired faculty at IIT Madras,
he was the head of department of Civil Engineering,
he held a lot of administrative positions
in the institute and he was
instrumental in building the laboratories at IIT Madras;
the structural engineering laboratory was built by him
and he is the
founding members of the institute, if I can
put it that way.
He has served for almost 30 years in this institute
and held various
administrative positions.
So, today, we will have Professor P.S. Rao
talking about his journey,
about his life
and the whole story about it.
So, Professor P.S. Rao,
I would like to start
from your childhood days.
So, can you just tell us about
how it all began,
so, where did you do your schooling
and what went on,
how did you choose
civil engineering as your BTech degree?
Thank you Shariff for your
kind words of introduction.
I had my schooling in a very small town
called Tuni,
it is on the border between two districts
east Godavari and Vishakhapatnam
in Andhra Pradesh
and the type of education at that time was
slightly different from
what you have nowadays.
We had schooling for 11 years
and it ends with a
an examination called SSLC,
Secondary School Leaving Certificate.
And one is supposed to
complete that at the age of 16 or 17,
because one is supposed to start at
age of 5,
but I completed that
when I was thirteen and half years,
very very young age
in Tuni, standing first for the school.
Then, I went to the college
in a bigger town called Rajahmundry
in east Godavari district,
the Government Arts College
and at that time,
the state of Andhra Pradesh did not exist,
it was a composite Madras state
and for the entire Madras state,
there were only three or four government colleges,
one of them happened to be
Rajahmundry college,
the other one was at Kumbakonam
and it was quite difficult to get into that college also,
but because of the fact that I did well in the
SSLC examination,
I was the school first,
I could get into that college
or intermediate.
The pattern was
at that time: 11 years of schooling,
2 years of intermediate,
and then,
degree was for 2 years for BSc,
but for BE,
it was 4 years.
So, I went for a 2 year course,
intermediate course at
Government Arts College, Rajahmundry
which was the stepping stone
for further professional studies later.
Ok.
So, after Rajahmundry, then what happened?
Well, at that time also
just as it is these days,
everybody wanted to become either an engineer
or a doctor and I wanted to become an engineer
and unlike the situation
in the present day,
civil engineering was the most preferred batch
branch at that time.
Nowadays, suppose it's computer science,
but at that time,
civil engineering was the number one choice,
then mechanical engineering,
then electrical engineering
computer science didn't exist at all.
So, that was the most preferred batch by - a branch -
by all the students and
I decided to go for civil engineering
because I had also an aptitude
for construction activities.
My father, he was headmaster of a high school,
but he was very good at construction
out of interest.
So, maybe part of it rubbed down to me
and I took civil engineering.
Then, of course, comes the question
to which college should you go?
IIT Kharagpur was started in 1951,
I finished my intermediate in 1953
And many people did not know about IIT,
it was the only IIT at that time,
but then
the concept of IIT was not known to many of you.
There was Guindy Engineering college for example,
with about 78 years of history
by that time itself,
Roorkee, very well-known old institute,
Shibpur College of Engineering,
these are the three oldest engineering colleges in India.
IIT was very new.
But then,
people knew that it was an institute
started in collaboration with
international collaboration.
It was an institute
where professors from at least
8 or 9 countries
were participating through UNESCO.
So, I wanted to go to that particular institute,
and luckily got selected.
And when we, the first 3-4 batches,
when we got selected for IITs,
we didn't go through this JEE.
We were interviewed by
particular selection committee,
each state had its own interview board
and because of my good career,
intermediate, I stood university first
so, because of my good academic career,
I could just walk into IIT Kharagpur
in 1953, that is, 3rd batch.
So, civil engineering was an automatic choice for you
because that was the most preferred
Yeah. Engineering branch at that point of time.
Yeah, I mean exactly.
Coupled with the interest
my father created in me, although
he was not an engineer.
Ok.
But he used to take a lot of interest in engineering activities.
Ok
And you met Professor P. C. Varghese there?
Yes.
So, can you share something about that, your first- I will tell;
I will tell you a few words about my
stay at IIT Kharagpur.
As I already told, I belong to the 3rd batch,
first batch was selected in 1951
and it was a four-year course at that time.
Professor Varghese joined that institute
around 56-57, around 55-56.
But then,
he came already with a good record as a
very good practical engineer from Hirakud Dam;
prior to that he did his post-graduation studies
in Harvard University,
everybody knows about Harvard
and that too, under the father of
soil mechanics, Terzaghi. Terzaghi
He didn't teach us in the third year
or fourth year.
In the undergraduate courses,
I didn't have the benefit of his lectures,
but in between, he went to England,
took a postgraduate
degree from Imperial College, London
and by the time he return in 1957,
I entered my MTech
and I did my postgraduation under him.
Then - My post-graduate thesis under him.
So, after Kharagpur,
you went straight to Germany
or was, did you work
somewhere in between? Well, there was something that
happened in between also.
Immediately after I completed my BTech 1957,
I decided I would write the engineering
services examination
conducted in, by the UPSC
that selects people to IRSE,
Indian Railway Service of Engineers,
Central PWD,
then Military Union Service - there were about 4 or 5
central services together,
examination was conducted
so, I wanted to take a chance
and write that examination.
Then, 2 or 3 of my other classmates also joined me
and we formed a group,
the other person was Shankar Prasad,
he was also a ranking student in civil engineering,
then one Venkatramani.
The three of us decided to stay back in the hostels
after completing our BTech
and work
in a very concentrated fashion,
focused fashion for the examinations.
So, we prepared like that for three
three months together,
some sort of a combined study,
wrote the examination sometime in August,
the results came out the next year
and believe it or not,
the three of us were in the top 10,
I was the number 1,
my friend Shankar Prasad was number 3
and my friend Venkatramani was number 7.
So, that I would like to quote as an example
to the present generation
which is taking the coaching at various centres
and competitive examinations.
We didn't take any coaching
and it was the first attempt for all of us.
Many people here, they spread the myths
that you have to write 2 or 3 times before you succeed,
but we attended, attempted for the first time,
when got these ranks of 1st, 3rd, and 7th
without any coaching.
So, I would like to tell the present generation
depend on your own calibre
and build up your own method of studying
rather than believing in coaching.
Before - So, after that, there was a gap
because once they announce the results,
there will be some time
until you get the order.
Yeah.
So, I joined MTech
and then, did my MTech course,
finished my MTech,
then joined as a research scholar under
Professor Varghese in a CSAR scheme
which I got sanctioned at that time,
a sponsored project at that time.
Ok.
And then, after Kharagpur,
after you finished your Master's,
you then wanted to go to Germany
for doing your doctoral studies.
That's right. Although I stood first in that examination,
I didn't take up that career of -
I just wanted to test myself
and proved myself.
And then after having proved myself,
I followed my
my immediate passion of studying further
and I chose Germany because at that time
or even before that,
Germany is known for;
Germany is known for its high level of scientific
and technological development.
Particularly what they
produced before the Second World War,
during the Second World War,
after the Second World War,
so, I wanted to go to Germany.
So, I started learning German
even when I was in IIT Kharagpur
and when they called me for interview,
I could impress them with my German knowledge
even before I went to Germany.
Ok.
So, that was an additional point
in addition to my good academic record,
that was an additional point
which brought me the scholarship.
Ok.
It is a DAAD’s scholarship
German Academic Exchange Service.
I was there for 5 years in Germany.
And there you worked with Professor Rüsch.
Right.
And I mean I would like to bring to the attention of
all the audience that
the work done by Professor Rao
that time which was
on developing the constructive model for
concrete is being used by,
you know, several engineers across the world
and it has been incorporated by several codes,
talk us through that
and how do you feel when
you know it's been implemented in the codes
because that's the ultimate satisfaction for every researcher.
I will tell you how it started.
I went to Professor Rüsch after completing
my German language course
in a small German village,
but I should say couple of words about that
German language course also.
It's conducted in an institute called Goethe Institute
named after one of the
famous poets of Germany, Goethe
and deliberately, they are located in villages
where the population
doesn't speak any language except German.
And the German teachers in the institute also,
they know they are very good in English,
they are very good in French,
some foreign languages they are experts,
but they never utter even a single word of
English or French or anything,
they keep on telling you in German and German and German.
If you do not understand,
again he repeats the
instruction again in German only
with different words
such that you get that feeling
for the words.
Yes.
And when you go out
and buy something in the market or
something like that again you are forced to
Speak in German. speak German,
maybe initially, naturally broken German,
but then it gets better and better Yes
as you go by.
So, I had undergone a course,
a 2 months course at that time.
I went in October 1959
to Professor Rüsch,
told him that I would like to do a PhD,
he said forget about PhD,
I want to first of all know the candidate myself
before I decide whether he is fit for PhD or not.
So, join in a research group
which is conducting an ongoing research project,
show me your interest in capability,
then we will decide about it.
That's how I got into that group
which was already working
on the effect of sustained load
on concrete.
Ok.
So you, suddenly the concrete is tested
with a 2 minutes duration
in a laboratory either on a cube or a cylinder,
but suppose you keep that load constant
for a period of 5 minutes, 10 minutes,
1 hour or few hours,
1 or 2 days and so on
with time, the strength of the concrete decreases
and that has to be taken into account
in design of the structures
because all the structures are
permanently loaded.
Yes.
For a long period of time.
So, that was being investigated
in depth
and I joined that particular team
and it was a big team of about 4 or 5 engineers
working under him because
we had to take
so many parameters into account:
the strength of concrete,
the age at which the concrete is to be loaded,
the rate at which the concrete is to be loaded,
so many variation, variables
which are to be investigated.
So, there was a group
conducting experiments
and getting the results and there was a group
which is taking the results and evaluating the results
to develop a theory out of that,
and I belonged to the second group.
Ok.
So, the one group was conducting tests,
we took the results from them
and there was another senior colleague of mine
by name Grasser,
he also became a professor later.
And, myself and Professor Grasser
formed the team which evaluated
the results.
So, we found that
whereas the strength decreases with time,
but the deformations increase.
So, we had to combine
fall of strength
with the increase in deformation.
We tried so many stress-strain curves.
And finally arrived at
a particular stress-strain, stress block,
a parabola plus rectangle
which gave the minimum strength
taking all the parameters into account.
And that is how the German government has
German industry has adopted that as a standard,
then France has adopted that as a standard
and the entire Europe has adopted that as a standard,
England has adopted that as a standard
and we corporate from England
in one of our earlier course,
I think in 1978 code if I remember right.
And your PhD was
on developing the constructive model
or was it something different?
Well, I didn’t, I couldn’t submit my PhD on that
because it was a group
work of about 4 or 5 engineers
and that is the practice in
German Universities that yes,
somebody submits a thesis for PhD,
but they would like to encourage the group work,
at least 3 or 4 people work together
and maybe one of them takes one part of the experiment
and develops a thesis on that,
another person takes another part of the work
and develops a thesis on that.
So, I could not do that
because it was a big group already
and my Professor Rüsch
suggested to me after seeing the way
I interpreted the results of the other group,
he said why don’t you take up your own independent work
and my dissertation topic was
on the stiffness of
reinforced concrete members after cracking.
The tension stiffening effect.
Tension stiffening effect, yes
and that has again become a standard,
I am happy to know, to tell you also,
that it has become the standard method of calculating
the tension stiffening effect
according to the latest Euro norms;
Euro norms.
So, I feel very happy
to know that my work found
Place in several courses. use in, not only in Germany,
but in several countries
for practical design of structures.
Yes.
It formed the benchmark.
Then tell us about this story of the shells,
you were so fascinated about shells,
and you would design lot of shell structures,
roof structures in Germany,
so, how did all of that happen?
Yes, shells started,
reinforced concrete shells
started in Germany.
Professor Dischinger was the person
who built the initial shells
and Professor Rüsch under whom I worked
was a student of Professor Dischinger
and his thesis was on shells
when he graduated in 30s or 40s,
he worked in South America,
built large number of shells,
but gave up shells,
he became a researcher on basics of concrete
once he became a professor.
But shells for example,
were used in large measure
for factory of Volkswagen
in the northern part of Germany.
Yes.
Wolfsburg, I think is the name of the city
where Volkswagen had their factory.
Professor Rüsch built those shells, those north light shells.
Ok.
But then later on,
they lost in popularity
because as the time passed by
particularly after Second World War,
labour cost grew
much faster than the material cost.
Shells has advantage
that the material consumption is very very small,
but the labour involved
in making the necessary form work
is quite substantial
and with the change in the ratios of
cost of labour versus cost of material,
the shells have gone into background nowadays.
So, after spending five years in Germany,
you flew back to India and -
No, I didn’t fly back, I came by ship.
You came by ship, ok.
So, you sailed back to India.
There is- I would like to make this comment,
I went by air.
Yeah.
Came by ship.
I deliberately chose this ship
because I wanted to see Naples.
Ok.
There is a saying "see Naples and die".
Ok.
So, it is a very famous city in Italy.
Yeah.
In addition to that, I wanted to have the
experience of travelling by ship
which I didn’t have when I was going
so, I deliberately took ship to come back,
for 2 weeks it took from Naples to
India. to- to Mumbai, Mumbai.
So, after 5 years,
after spending 5 years in Germany,
you came back to India
and who was the first person you met?
I am sure you did not go to Rajahmundry;
you went somewhere else.
No, I did not go to Rajahmundry,
but before I tell you that experience,
let me tell you
what I did in addition to my
research work in Germany.
I told you already two important thing,
the stress concrete stress block one,
then the tension stiffening effect, second,
those were the main activities for me.
But in addition to being a researcher,
I had good exposure to industry.
The contact between the industry
and universities
in Germany is very very strong.
And they have a
system called Prüfingenieur
through which means in literally translated
checking engineer.
So, even if a God designs a structure,
another God should check the design
and that is how Professor Rüsch used to get
a lot of designs for checking.
And here because of my,
because of the confidence he had in me
along with Grasser of course,
he asked me also to help him in checking the designs
and I did lot of checking
work for Professor Rüsch
and through that,
came in contact with a number of firms
constructing buildings, bridges and so on
and very monumental structures were constructed,
one of them is a hanger for
Lufthansa.
Lufthansa
and also, for the NATO
military base at that time.
With a column free area imagine
150 metres by 60 metres,
150 metres, 60 metres
absolutely column free
so, that two Boeing jets can get into their hangar
simultaneously for repair.
And this was a steel structure.
That was a steel structure of course.
Yes, after that, when I went to, came to Mumbai,
the two people whom I met at the Mumbai
Mumbai port
because I came by ship,
were my brother,
who also graduated from IIT Kharagpur
2 years younger to me,
and my brother-in-law
who was in the railways at that time.
But they came only to see me
and take my luggage to Tuni
where my parents were.
I came straight to Madras.
After five years of stay in Germany
returning to India,
I first came to IIT Madras
from Bombay
to attend an interview
in civil engineering department.
I landed on the 4th of June
and the interview was on the 8th of June,
just made it in time,
the Professor Sengupto was the director,
Professor Varghese was the head of the department
and got selected as assistant professor
and joined in October in 1965
as an assistant professor.
So, when you joined here as a professor, assistant professor.
Yeah, assistant professor.
You, there was nothing,
I mean the there was no laboratory at that time.
Right.
You had to build it from the scratch because
the IIT itself was very new,
IIT Madras. Well, I don’t say I built it
but we built it Yes
along with our colleagues also.
So, how much of German
influence was there
in the sense, like your stay in Germany
and your association with the professors there
and how much of it came down here,
how much of it trickled down? Yes
there, there again I have to tell
a couple of stories.
The civil engineering department
was not included
in the Indo-German agreement
when they set up this institute of
IIT in the- IIT Madras.
But that reminds me
my connection with IIT Madras
started well before that
even when I was in IIT Kharagpur. Kharagpur
The German delegation
which came to India
to study the existing IITs
already by that time,
there was IIT Kharagpur, naturally,
then second IIT was Mumbai
the third was IIT Madras.
So, they wanted to study how IIT Kharagpur
and IIT Mumbai were working,
and that committee
came to IIT Kharagpur in 1950,
this institute was started in 59, 57.
Ok.
And I was a student at that time,
I was in my
Azad Hall of residence at IIT Kharagpur,
we invited the German team
for dinner on a Deepavali day
so, the German team which sanctioned this institute,
we entertained them in our hostel
at IIT Kharagpur
2 years prior to that
on a Deepavali day.
Yes, coming back to IIT Madras,
when civil engineering was not included,
Professor Varghese came down from IIT Kharagpur,
he knew how valuable the
foreign collaboration is
from his IIT Kharagpur days,
he somehow wanted to
get civil engineering also included
in the departments
which are to be supported by Germany
and it came very handy to him
that the leader of the German delegation
which was here in IIT Madras
looking after
the initial setting up of the institute
happened to be Professor Kraus,
who was a professor at IIT Kharagpur.
So, professor Varghese knew Professor Kraus
from his Kharagpur days
and then,
after he took over as the head of department in 62 or 63
around that time,
he approached Kraus,
convinced Professor Kraus
that civil engineering also should be included
and that is how he got
civil engineering included.
The reason why the Germans didn’t include
civil engineering in the initial list was
they felt that
India was good enough
in civil engineering even without foreign aid,
but then, that was correct,
we had wonderful irrigation structures
which were on par with
any structures anywhere in the world,
irrigation structures,
but urban infrastructure,
we were not on par with other countries.
So, I think Professor Varghese
must have made that point to Professor Kraus
and got civil engineering included.
And once we got civil engineering included
in 63, 64 around that time,
he started corresponding with me
in Germany
because he knew I worked with Professor Varghese,
went to Germany
so, he knew that I was in Germany,
and he said
why don’t you ask your Professor Rüsch
to help us
in setting up the laboratory.
Then, when I met Rüsch,
he was already 64 or 65,
he said, Rao I am quite old,
India is very far,
you know, go to Professor Kordina,
who was here in my laboratory
and who has now become a professor at Braunschweig,
and he will agree.
So, I and he I knew Professor Kordina
because he was originally in Munich,
he used to come very frequently,
then I wrote to Professor Kordina,
I talked to him and he readily agreed.
And then, as a junior of his Professor Eibl,
he was also earlier in Munich laboratory
so, those two formed a team,
Professor Kordina and Professor Eibl,
they came down here number of times,
helped us in
preparing the layout for the laboratory
obtaining equipments from the German companies,
all that was done by the German team.
In fact, the structural engineering laboratory
which we have today
is more or less a replica of the Munich laboratory
because I had training in Munich,
Professor Kordina was a student of Professor Rüsch
earlier, much earlier,
Professor Eibl also joined in Munich
and then, went to Professor Kordina.
so, all the three of us had that
Munich flavour with us
and we reproduced that here
with a few modifications to suit Indian conditions.
For example, the Munich laboratory
would be having three office blocks
on three sides of the laboratory
here, we have only on two sides. Two sides.
That is to permit ventilation
Yes.
which is not necessary in Germany.
Yes.
So, we made some alterations
to suit Indian conditions
and that's how the Germans came into picture.
First, Professor Varghese got the
department included in the list,
then I played my part
in identifying the experts.
Ok.
Who were the other faculty members
who helped you
in constructing this laboratory?
This, Professor Kordina and Professor Eibl
were primarily in Germany,
and they were coming only now and then and going back,
but we had two faculty from Germany
stationed at Madras
Professor Plähn from Hanover
and Dr. Cordes also from Hanover.
So, we had two Germans with us
for about
two and half years or three years
and they were the people who helped us
in constructing that
strong floor which is a unique feature of Yes
this laboratory
which makes it one of the best in the
country even today. Yes
The other Indian colleagues
some of them were already there
even before I joined,
most of them were there
even before I joined in 65.
Professor Victor and Professor T. P. Ganesan,
Professor R. Radhakrishnan,
Professor Rajagopalan,
Professor C. S. Krishnamurthy
all stalwarts in their own fields
of course, they became stalwarts later,
but at that time, they were a young faculty
and I had the benefit of their cooperation also.
So, while you were here,
what were the courses you had taught to our students?
I taught reinforced concrete
for two years;
3rd year and 4th year,
I taught prestressed concrete,
I taught design of shell structures.
Tomorrow in the
function, I will elaborate a little more
when I talk about my relationship with Professor Varghese,
I would like to share some material away from you.
So, I taught shell structures
and then,
I learnt from Professor Varghese also
the importance of conducting
courses for outside engineers
not only for students in the campus
that is how we come in contact with practice.
When you conduct a short course
say for about a week or 10 days or 15 days,
engineers from industry come to you
and they had to gain knowledge, no doubt,
but they also come to know that
yes, here is a man,
here is a person or a women
could be a lady also,
here is a person who knows
something more about
the subject to whom
I could go and consult
and that is how we built up our consultancy activity.
So, I conducted a large number of
courses, short courses
for practising engineers also.
That's how I came in contact with engineers from L and T
from Doordarshan
from so many other departments.
You mentioned about the consultancy activities
so, some of them are remarkable
and that we know.
So, for example, the TV tower,
the Doordarshan TV towers,
radio towers and the
tower at Rameshwaram which is
perhaps was, the tallest till for a long time
and there was one in Bhuj
which withstood the 2001 earthquake.
So, tell us about that story,
that journey about
how you got involved in Indian projects.
Before I talk about towers,
I would like to go in the chronological order
were the towers I started working in
end of 70s and beginning of 80s
but before that,
when the laboratory was inaugurated
in 1971,
it was the only laboratory in India
which had dynamic load testing facility
and the Indian Railways
wanted to switch over to
prestressed concrete railway sleepers
from wooden sleepers
because they have the advantage,
they are very heavy
so, when you go in curves
with the centrifugal force acting on it,
the heavy track permits you
to take the trains at higher speeds.
So, they decided to go for prestressed concrete sleepers,
but then, the design
again Germany was the leading country,
which was using prestressed concrete sleepers
in Europe
so, they wanted to
copy the design, German designs,
but the German companies were not
that much willing to
part with their designs unless
they are given the contract.
So, the Indian Railways started to
develop their own designs
and they, when they came to know that
our laboratory had the dynamic load -
in the railway track,
you keep getting their loads as dynamic loads.
Cyclic One after the other,
one wheel after the other.
They came to us
and said why don’t you collaborate with us
and that is how Professor Varghese
started the work and myself
and my other colleagues continued it later.
And it was a real big success,
the prestressed concrete sleepers
I don’t want to go into technical details
now because this is a general talk,
the design which we developed
and also the method of production
which we developed
has been adopted by
as many as 15-20 companies
in different parts of India
and now, the
sleepers are produced in millions
used in Indian Railways.
So, that was the very striking
consultancy work we did in early 70s.
Towards the end of 70s and early 80s, yes,
what you mentioned, the tall towers
was a focal point for my activity
where there were others who were doing
works on other for example,
Professor Victor was doing a lot of work on bridges.
Professor T. P. Ganesan
was an expert in experimental stress analysis,
Professor C. S. Krishnamurthy
was a top notch specialist in
finite elements
so and my group,
myself and Professor Rajagopalan,
Professor Aravindan, we were
concentrating on sleepers initially
and then, came to the design of tall towers.
And when the tall towers
were being built for the first time in India,
the tall tower we had
towers of the heights of 100 metres
or a 150 meters at the most as tall towers,
but when I finished my consultancy work,
we went up to 350 metre tall towers
which you mentioned in Bhuj
and Rameshwaram
and Barmer therefore, are the towers.
There was no Indian code,
there was not even an international code,
except beginnings were being made in America
and an organisation called
CICIND in Europe
is a consortium of countries
which came together to
draw standards
for design of tall chimneys,
but then, it was in beginning stage.
We had to build our own towers
with very scanty information.
So, we had to go through the
practises in different countries
and pick up the best
and we found that the Canadian code
amongst the existing codes at that time
was the best,
here a beautiful wind tunnel
it was Davenport in Canada
is the largest wind tunnel at that time.
Now, I do not know, in the world,
I went and visited that wind tunnel,
borrowed the ideas from Canadian code,
passed on that information
to practising engineers through short course
conducted by me
on design of tall tower structures.
And then, the people came to me
once I knew that they had some information,
they came to me for consultation
and the one big difference is
such tall towers
we have to consider structural dynamics
whereas, small buildings of 3 storeys, 4 storeys,
5 storeys of the order,
you don’t need to consider dynamics,
it is all static load,
but in a tall tower,
when wind blows on the tower,
then there is a very flexible tower,
it starts oscillating
and there is dynamic amplification
of the load coming under that.
And the Canadian code handled it very well
now, the present Indian code for example,
has taken good part of it
again from the Canadian code
but enriched by our own studies in work in our
laboratory also.
Professor Devadas Menon did his work on that,
some of his contributions are now incorporated in
the present chimney code.
And then, during your consultancy activities,
you also got in touch with
one of the greatest engineers
the country has ever produced, Dr. Ramakrishna,
who happens to be
just on the other side of the bank,
where you mentioned about Rajahmundry,
you were in Rajahmundry,
he was in Kovvur. Kovvur - kovvur
So, and it took so many years
for you to meet and then,
once the once you met there,
there was a great partnership,
you worked together with L and T
on various projects
and took the
Indian infrastructure to a different level.
Right. I was born in Rajahmundry
on the eastern bank of Godavari
and he was born in Kovvur
on the western bank of Godavari
and the two are connected by a bridge,
the old railway bridge,
but we met here only in - in -
in IIT Madras
and he joined L and T
already by that time; by that time
and I still remember when I joined here,
Ramakrishna was a fresh man in L and T,
Doctor C. N. Srinivasan and his own
design company, design organisation
C. R. and sons C. R. Narayan Rao and sons,
then and a few others also,
we decided that
the engineers of our age group
who were very very active
in obtaining knowledge
and also disseminating knowledge,
we should form a group of a
young engineer’s club
and we used to meet once in a month
in the residence of one of the members.
We were about ten or fifteen
engineers Ramakrishna was one, I was one,
Professor Purushottaman from
Engineering College, Guindy,
C. R. Narayan Rao sons, C. N. Srinivasan,
then 4 or 5 others
we were meeting,
discussing the codal formulations,
criticising the code
and thinking of possible alterations
we could suggest
for code making authorities at Indian Standards Institute,
it was a very lively group
for about 2 years,
but then, each one of us became
busier and busier,
then the meetings
became less frequent. Less frequent yeah. Not continued
So, we But we still remain good friends and, you know.
So, we spoke about your teaching activities here,
we spoke about your consultancy,
let us talk about the research
which you had done here and which
shape the codes in the country,
there was, you had several students,
you may number the number of
PhDs you had produced
and also the works which they had done.
Yes,
my first PhD student was Dr. B. V. Subrahmanyam,
a brilliant candidate,
he later on worked as a scientist in SERC.
Then, he became a consultant
consulting engineer by himself.
It was on the design of
statically indeterminate structures,
concrete structures using plastic hinge theory,
that was a contribution
which was adopted in some of the codes.
Then, the formulae for crack width calculations
was another point of investigation
which again
found application in some of the codes.
As I told you already the loadings
which are to be considered
for design of tall towers
based on a very rational
probabilistic consideration,
we determine the criteria for that
which again are finding
place in the chimney code.
So, like that there were many instances
where they had a direct impact on the industry.
The sleeper production
I had already explained to you
that the initial first sleepers were
cast in our laboratory
now, they are manufactured in millions
all over the country.
Now, we move to the other segment
which is the administrative
Oh yes. work which you had
done for this institute which
has helped institute the lot - in a big way.
There are several positions you had held,
if you can first tell about your
first position of responsibility you know
when it started, probably the head of the laboratory
or head of the department? Well, I was
the head of the laboratory,
Professor Plähn was,
Professor Varghese was a head of the laboratory,
but he left in
one year after inauguration
72 or 71 it was inaugurated.
Then, I was in Germany at that time,
I came back
and became the head of the laboratory.
For about 12 years, I was the head of the laboratory,
then we introduced the
system of rotation.
So, every professor became a head
once in 3; once in 3 years.
But after having been a head of the laboratory
from 72 onwards,
I became the head of the department in
77, end of 77,
then within one and half years of my becoming the
head of the department, Professor Indiresan
came over as the director
and he wanted to make me the dean
for consultancy
because I was already active in consultancy.
So, I was there only for one and half years
as the head of the department
and I became the dean for consultancy
for 2 years,
a job which I liked
because I liked consultancy
and I did a fairly good job
which was appreciated by my colleagues also.
But after 2 years,
Professor Indiresan had an idea
that he would like to retain some of the,
we were 5 deans,
3 deans he would like to retain,
the other 2 deans would retire,
then he would recruit fresh 2 deans
and again that sort of
partial replacement
would be followed
so that more number of people get
exposed to administration and then.
So, in that process after finished
my 2 years as a dean of consultancy,
he asked me to take over as a,
he asked me to continue,
one of the persons to continue
and he asked me to take over as the dean of
academic affairs
which deals with examinations,
succession of courses,
looking after dropouts,
re-examinations conducting,
grades, publishing grades, and things like that.
I told Professor Indiresan; sir,
that is not my cup of tea,
you gave me consultancy,
I liked that work,
and fortunately my colleagues also
appreciated it, I'm happy about it
but this I don’t think I will be able to do it
please leave me out.
Then, he ask me two questions
one after another,
what do you want to do
if you don’t want to become a dean?
Said, sir, I have got my consultancy,
I have got my research work,
I got my teaching, I like all of them
so, I will go back as a professor and
do all these works.
Then immediately shot a question at me,
do you mean to say, Professor Rao,
that I should select as deans
such people who do not have any work to do
and can you imagine
immediately there came the question,
can you imagine how much harm such people
can do to the system
if I select such people as deans?
I didn’t have answers
for those two questions.
So, I had to accept that dean of academic affairs
and that was
one of the bad - worst periods
for my stay as far as work is concerned,
I did fairly well,
but the amount of work
I had to undertake
was tremendous, those 2 years.
We had to close the - 4 year-
5 year programme - BTech program
and start the 4 year program.
And these students who were to pass out
simultaneously with fourth year -
4 year batch and with fifth year batch,
they came and told me sir,
we would like to go out after four and half years
so, I had to run a four and half year programme,
a four year programme,
a five year programme,
MTech was to be changed
from 2 years to one and half years.
We had to conduct the first GATE examination,
all came under my purview
as a dean of academic affairs
and then, introduced the credit system
in the college, in the institute,
until that time credit system was not known
it was brought by Professor Indiresan,
but I had to implement that.
So, there was so much of work to be done at that time,
but fortunately, I could withstand all that pressure
and convince
satisfy my other colleagues also
about the way things have to be done.
But you were also the
the warden for some of the hostels.
Oh, that was much earlier
that was before I became a
even a professor I think,
I was only assistant professor at that time,
it was 69 to 72,
at that time only I was the
faculty advisor to Campastimes
around that time 67, 68.
Dr. Ramachandran,
he wanted me to become the campus advisor,
the advisor faculty advisor for Campastimes.
I was warden of Narmada hostel
for 3 years, 69 to 72,
at the end of the time only I became a professor.
So,
after serving in this institute for 30 years
and then, finally, you had to say goodbye,
but before you had to say this farewell,
I want to ask you, how was the campus back then
and how do you think you know
because now, since you have come here,
what do you think has changed
and the department as well,
the campus and the department.
Well, the department has become
much much bigger,
I think we were only about
30 faculty members
or even less than that 25 to 30 faculty
now, I understand it is as much as 50 to 60,
the structural engineering laboratory,
the PhD scholar strength is
quite large now,
I think the department has
I got into Meher Prasad,
when I talked to him some time back,
had as many as 200 PhD students at a time
and all - the all sections put together,
was unimaginable and we were
on the faculty here.
I do not know about the
teacher-student contact nowadays,
but the teacher-student contact at that time
used to be very very close.
In fact, many of the MTech students,
we used to involve them in our
consultancy projects
I don’t know what they do right now,
maybe they are doing even now.
Then, the one big difference I find
from that time to this time is the
increase in the faculty strength
and the student strength.
I don’t know because of that,
the personal contacts have become less,
and it has become more mechanical
that is what I guess,
could be the difference now.
So, 20 years back you left this campus.
When when?
20 years back or 20 years back yes 20 years back yes
so, I'm right on that.
Exactly.
20 years back you left this campus
and after that what did you do?
Well to say so happened that
I retired officially in November 96
and an educational society
called Gayatri Vijayaparishat in Vishakhapatnam
wanted to start an engineering college
and they knew me,
they knew that I was retiring
and they started a college in December 96,
I retired here in November 96 was
continued for 2 months as
for extension here
to, for seeing the MTech student
through finishing their projects.
And when they came to know that I was retiring,
they invited me to
go to them as the principal
of the new college.
So, I became the principal of a new college,
I was the principal for 10 years
and I am glad to say that
it is ranked now as
one of the topmost engineering colleges in Andhra Pradesh,
you were a student of that college.
So, I met Professor P. S. Rao in 2005
for the first time when he gave a
talk for the Hindu Summit,
the technical summit and that was the first time
I heard him speak about civil engineering
and that was sufficient for me
to get into civil engineering.
Nice to hear that. I would also like to ask you this was
I mean I should have asked you this earlier,
but when you were a faculty here,
did you stay in the campus
and where did you stay,
which quarter did you stay
and how was the, how did you like the campus?
I this campus is one of the best in the world,
no doubt about it,
you can’t get any such campus
anywhere else in the world.
I stayed initially
for good part of the time,
I stayed in that area near the temple,
initially in those multi-storey blocks
C1 type I think,
they were being called C1 type,
I don’t know what they are called now
C1-16, I remember the number very well,
as an assistant professor I moved in there.
Then, when I became a warden,
I took, I stayed in the wardens quarters
for 3 years,
from there I came back to the
so called German quarters
that is the other side of the
C1 block was on the one side
and C block near the temple,
they were all being referred
at that time as German quarters
because the Germans participated
in the design of that building,
in the layout of the rooms
and they were meant for
at one time, there were as many as about
30 German faculty here
and all of them are staying there.
So, when once they left,
they naturally threw it
open for Indian faculty
and I stayed for 25 years in
one of those blocks, c blocks,
near temple third of road third of road yes.
There are some stories.
Professor Natarajan was my neighbour
was the next-door neighbour at that time.
There are some stories which
going to every IIT, I believe
that whenever the civil engineering students
see the water tank,
they say that there is no water in this tank
the reason being when it was designed,
they forgot to take the water load,
how much of it is true?
Go down I didn’t get it.
There are stories in almost every IIT.
That whenever. Every IIT.
Almost every IIT which I know
where they have these water tanks,
these huge water tanks and the
students claimed
there is no water in the tank
because it was not designed for that
they had when they designed,
they forgot to add the water load,
they designed it for the sulphate,
how much of it is true?
Oh, I don’t think it is true at all,
I don’t think it is true at all,
that must be a joke going around.
Why are you asking that question
that must be something.
No, this has been a joke since many years
and seniors pass it on to the juniors,
juniors pass it on to the next batch
and it goes on.
Well, it could have happened once or twice,
I wouldn’t be surprised,
it could have happened once or twice
in fact, that is what the job of this
Prüfingenieur is,
it is not that 2 into 3 is equal to 6,
did he get that 2 into 3 is a 6 or 5.9
that doesn’t matter much.
Whether all the loads have been taken into account
which are supposed to be coming on the structure,
you have to check the assumptions
due to basic assumptions,
the concepts,
whether the structural system has been
properly identified or not
that is more important
than checking 2 into 3 is equal to 6 not that.
So, that is the
For example, if somebody has
forgotten water load,
then the checking engineer would have noticed it
that the water load was not taken into account.
In fact, to my knowledge,
this concept of Prüfingenieur
I think so we are calling it as proof checking,
I personally believe
it came from the German word
prüfen means checking,
prüfeningenieur they are called checking engineers
and we will do proof checking for printing and all that,
that is not what is
meant by we don't do checking printing Proof printing
we do the correctness of the assumptions
and as I told you it was a
mandatory in Germany
that A has to check
even if B is a very great man, these calculations,
but it was not there in England,
it was not there in any other country,
it was not in India at least,
but once people like me,
Ramakrishna and a few others
who got trained in Germany,
Professor V. S. Raju
who came back,
introduced the system of checking,
it has become very common now.
A few anecdotes which you can recollect,
can you share something with us?
I want to narrate about another episode
which happened around the middle of 1987,
it also happened to be the middle of
the term of Professor L. S. Srinath
as the Director of IIT Madras.
Around that time,
Professor Srinath wanted to
appoint a deputy director
to help him,
for that purpose
he sent out a circular
to all the professors
requesting each one of them
to let him know
whether he would like to be considered
on the possibility of the director
and if not to recommend
the name of another suitable candidate
for the post.
I replied stating that I was not interested
but recommended the name of
a very respected
professor of electrical engineering
at that time,
other professors would have replied
in their own fashion.
After about 2 to 3 months
after this circular was issued,
I got a call from the director’s office
stating that the director wanted to see me.
When I met Professor Srinath,
he asked me: Professor Rao,
you replied that
you would not be interested
in the post of the deputy director,
but all your colleagues
want you to be the deputy director,
are you prepared to accept the offer
if it is made?
I replied to him stating that
I was very happy to know
that all my colleagues had
such a good opinion about me
and further added
that if the director feels
I could be of some help to him,
I will certainly will accept offer.
He smiled and said
he would consider that.
For another 2 to 3 months thereafter,
I heard nothing,
and, in the meantime,
I got an offer of fellowship from the
Alexander von Humboldt Foundation
for a second visit to Germany.
I left for the University of Karlsruhe
and after about 2 to 3 months
after I started working
in the University of Karlsruhe,
I got a letter from the director’s office
stating that somebody else
was selected for the post of the deputy director.
So, I may not have got the
post of the deputy director officially,
but I was very happy to note
that all my colleagues
had such good opinion of me
and recommended my name
to the deputy director.
I am repeat - I am narrating about this incident
because it's 30 years
since it happened
and at that time and until now,
nobody else except me,
my wife, and the then director knew about it.
The good impression my colleagues
must have had of me
must be due to the
experience they had with me
as dean for two terms under the
directorship of Professor Indiresan,
the predecessor of Professor L. S. Srinath.
There was something which
has a remarkable place in the history
in terms of engineering
which was you know
done by your colleagues or
your friends in Germany,
which is now not known to many people,
but you know the background.
No, I have some anecdotes
regarding my personal career here,
but they may not be of interest to anybody
as a historian,
they may not be of any interest to anybody.
Ok, thank you sir,
thank you for the time.
And I would like to conclude by saying
that you have been an inspiration
for several engineers,
you have taught thousands of students in IITs
and been an inspiration for several engineers
across the world,
thank you.
Thank you.
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