Prof. R. Nagarajan (Computer Science) in conversation with Prof. Kamala Krithivasan
Welcome to the Oral Program by the Heritage Centre
and I am here with Professor Nagarajan, I am Kamala Krithivasan
and I am here with Professor Nagarajan.
Two of us were there in the department for a long time.
For the long time. 60, 70’s and so on.
So, it is nice to have a I welcome you Professor Nagarajan and
let us share our experience with the Heritage Centre.
At the outset, I wish to thank the members of the Heritage Centre
for having given me this great opportunity to be here on this occasion.
To have a very nice discussion with Dr. Kamala Krithivasan
who has been my colleague,
a very learned colleague in the computer science department.
I also thank that this for giving this opportunity
and I am very happy to be with my former colleague Professor Nagarajan;
who was one of the
leading person in establishing the computer centre here.
Let us. Well, if I want to recount my early days you know,
I was born and bred up in Chidambaram;
one of the best places you know,
in the mythological sense now Lord Nataraja is there you know,
acting as a cosmic dancer.
Then I was bred up, educated at Chidambaram.
My initial schooling was in Pachaiyappa’s High School.
I did up to SSLC; then I studied in Annamalai University.
In those days there was no concept of 11th and 12th.
The actual 11th and 12th was called ‘intermediate’
in those days in the university.
So, I did 2 years of intermediate, 2 years of B.Sc.
and 4 years of chemical engineering, B.E. chemical.
In those days it was a very interesting course,
because it was once called B.Sc. Tech.
At that time the head of the department was one person from Pilani.
So, what he did was, he wanted to revise the syllabus
to make the course at par with other disciplines.
B.E. mechanical or B.E. electrical or B.E. civil.
In a similar way he wanted to make this as B.E. chemical.
So, lot of mechanical engineering components were included in the subject,
like theory of machines, you know,
machine design and drawing then heat engines.
So, all those components were included.
Similarly electrical engineering components were included;
maybe civil engineering components were included like graphic statics,
theory of structures, tons of materials ok.
So, it is a very interesting composite course.
There was also a move that
they can extend for 1 year and offer B.E. mechanical,
but later on that concept was given up due to various reasons.
So, this is my initial educational background.
Then I moved to see after completing my B.E. chemical
I moved to A. C. College of Technology as a research associate.
So, I was there for nearly two and a half years.
You know quite surprisingly,
I was allocated to the engineering,
I mean, department of A. C. College of Technology.
I was teaching electrical engineering,
I was teaching mechanical engineering right,
then computers, not exactly computing,
some aspects of statistical analysis.
So, this is my initial career commencement.
So, after spending 2 and a half years under Dr. Laddha,
somehow he took a fancy for me.
So, in 1960 I moved over to IIT Madras, right.
So, it is September 1960,
you know 1 year after its inception.
So, I have grown along with this institute.
It is a great institute.
See when you talk about IIT,
IIT is not just an organization,
it is a magnificent concept. It is a phenomenon.
We try to see a lot of things you know happening between IIT
at that point in time is one of the greatest institute
especially in the South.
So, I started working in the department of chemical engineering.
Even though it was a chemical engineering I was
more interested in process control.
I was as I set up the process control laboratory,
then I also working for my
M.Tech. program as well as Ph.D. program as a student.
I was both a faculty and a student.
So, we had that kind of advantage in those times.
So, we were allowed to register for
M.Tech. as well as for Ph.D. program.
So, my Ph.D. program is more on drug reduction.
Surprisingly Professor Nigam was my main guide and Dr. Venkateswarlu,
the Head of the Department of chemical engineering was my co-guide.
Now this project was given to me by Professor Nigam,
professor of mathematics.
So, I had been actually interacting with the mathematics department also
from that time onwards.
So actually that was the first thesis from India,
especially on drug reduction.
Previously it was done in MIT,
Dr. Burke who was actually working in that particular area.
It was focused on viscoelasticity.
So, I did lot of programming, actually I did lot of analysis on that.
And we also came up with new theories on that drug reduction
and then we published lot of papers also on that.
So, it is a very very interesting area
and but this work also pertains to non Newtonian fluids.
Especially what is a Newtonian fluid?
There are other, I mean, fluids like pseudoplastic,
dilatant fluids, rheopectic, thixotropic.
There are so many such fluids.
So, when you want to have the control system of such kinds of fluids,
how do you do it?
So, these are all some of the aspects
which I concentrated on that Ph.D. program.
So, that is my Ph.D. level.
So, I actually published a number of papers on those areas
and I should say that Professor Nigam
played a very important role in making up the thesis.
In fact, the two, I mean,
the people who have actually valued my thesis,
one in West Germany, one in Japan;
they actually appreciated the thesis
and then they gave a very complimentary reports about that.
So, this is about my Ph.D. program.
You want to ask any questions?
When did you move to computer centre started?
I moved to computers and in fact, it was not a transfer,
It is. It was a selection.
I have got selected in computer science me in 1973.
So, at that time I was the first staff member to start
the computer science department.
Professor Sampath was the Director at that time.
So somehow, I do not know,
well 12 people were interviewed and I was selected,
because at that time when I was in chemical engineering
I used to interact with the Dr. Ramani in the management department.
He was the head of management department at that time.
We wrote a book also on computer programming
with industrial and engineering applications.
Now, the three authors Dr. Ramani, Dr. Koteswara Rao
and my humble myself, right.
So, we three wrote a book at that time
it was very very popular in those days.
I remember that it was a very popular book
and I think you mainly used FORTRAN in that.
FORTRAN main focus was on Fortran 77.
So, we did that particular topic in FORTRAN language.
We brought out all the nuances of that language,
how it should be used in the scientific computation.
At that time three languages were very popular;
one is the FORTRAN, the other one is COBOL
the other one language is PL 1.
PL 1 is the combination of FORTRAN and COBOL.
It has all the, I mean scientific computational elements of FORTRAN
and all the output aspects of COBOL.
It is a very nice, I mean, integration of FORTRAN and COBOL,
it was used on the IBM 370 system.
Now, to talk about this IBM 370,
it is a very very interesting and exciting experience
and exacting experience also.
Because we too spend lot of days in understanding the nuances
of the hardware as well as the software complications, you know.
It is a very huge operating system, we call it as MBS.
It has both the system management function,
recovery management function,
then the task management function, job management function.
You will find that operating system
is a very good management specialist ok,
because we are working on multi programming environment.
See that is one system which we got
had that particular facility of multi programming.
At a time 6 programs can run simultaneously.
So, it was operated on two modes;
one is multi programming fixed number of task,
multi programming with variable number of task.
So, how to improve the output?
So, many people you know used to work on IBM 370
and then that in fact, West German people were very skeptical,
whether they can make the full utilization of that IBM 370.
In fact, we justified that we are capable
and we used to have lot of projects implemented on IBM 370.
It is a very very interesting experience for us for all of us.
For the first time we are exposed to that kind of fourth generation computer.
It was given to us as a gift from the west from the Republic of Germany.
And it has actually catered to the needs
and the requirements of all the sections of people
from various departments.
Very interesting experience for us
and see once I will tell you the operational aspects also;
when the temperature rises in the ambience,
automatically the system will get shut down right.
I think most of you might not have seen that IBM 370 and then
how it was actually working.
A very very pleasant experience for all of us you know.
We feel proud that we have worked on IBM 370.
So, at that time you know I was the first staff member to start this
and later on Professor Mahabala joined
and he is one of the outstanding computer scientist who disseminated
the computer culture in the South right.
So, he played a very vital role and he brought up the department
to what it was at that point in time.
Now, he recruited all the people.
I would say that my own students
joined the computer science department:
Dr. C. R. Muthukrishnan, Dr. Kalyana Krishnan,
they were all my students actually
and they took over and they superseded me.
So, it is a great matter of pride
that your own student supersedes you right,
and I was working with them I was working under them also.
So, initially I may be
acting as head and then when Mahabala was not there,
I used to act as head,
but later on you know with the press of time
our own students, you know,
you have the privilege of working under them.
So, that was for some time.
So, this is initially about our Computer Centre
right and then the computer science department.
I should say that Professor Mahabala
had been a driving force to improve or to get
lot of things for the department of computer science.
See, I basically, I am a mathematician.
I did B.Sc. in mathematics and M.Sc. in mathematics
at Madras Christian College, Tambaram.
In both B.Sc. and M.Sc, I got the first rank in Madras University.
But before the M.Sc. results came out,
I was married and I was in Lucknow.
So, at that point of time I did not know
whether I will have a career life or not.
Then the results came out.
Then my Professor Rani Shiromani,
she had been working in the area of formal languages,
I do not know for what reason she took that area,
but it is an upcoming area
which has got application in compiler writing.
So formal languages was a computer related topic
and she submitted her thesis around that time.
When I finished my M.Sc.,
the results came out and then I got the first rank and
the chairman of the committee processing the marks was S. D. Nigam.
He asked this, the difference between the first rank and the second rank
was too large and he said that
why do not you ask this boy to join our IIT Madras to do Ph.D.
But then my professor said she is, it is not a boy, it is a girl
and she is married and she is in Lucknow now.
Then he left it.
After 6 months for some reason I came back,
and my husband was very cooperative in my career development.
And after I came back, I thought of taking up some job,
but it was in around March and then some colleges said
you come in June when the academic session starts.
But then at the time I realized that I was pregnant.
So, what happened is, my professor said you can take care of the child
and you continue doing Ph.D.,
we will apply for UGC fellowship and you do.
So ok, I joined for Ph.D. program for the UGC fellowship.
And I started working in the area of automata theory.
I did not know that it was very much related to computer at that time.
But once I started working in the area, I liked the area very much
and I was working on array grammars.
The automata theory is basically a part of the,
it is very useful in compiler writing.
The compiler has two parts; the analysis and the synthesis part.
The analysis part has the parser and the lexical analyzer
and the parser has lot of theory behind it.
So, similarly there is lexical analysis uses regular expression
and that also is basics in automata theory.
At that time even in US many universities
did not have computer science departments.
All the people who moved out to computer science department
are working in the computer science department
they are either from electrical engineering or from mathematics.
And there are many mathematics people who are working in that area
and they looked at it from the point of semi groups,
groups, operations or the groups and things like that.
So, actually I was looking at it though grammar
I worked on grammars it was more like, you know,
the theatrical point of view.
I knew FORTRAN little bit, but not worked with
any computer system at that time.
The computers centre was started in IIT at, in 1973
and there were 6 basic, only M.Tech. programs was there,
6 basic courses were taught at for M.Tech.,
out of which 2 were theoretical courses,
1 was called ICO; Introduction to Computer Organization
in most Boolean algebra and other things were taught there.
The other topic was automata and formal languages
that is also basics in computer science.
One Professor Laxmi Virahan was teaching those two courses,
he was also teaching an advance course
at that time for the M.Tech. program.
And he got a very good offer from U.S.
and he had to leave in 1975,
he around October or November he wanted to leave.
Then if he left there was no other person to teach us.
Of course, Professor Muthukrishnan could have taught it
and Mahabala of course could teach ICO,
but they had other courses to teach also.
So, this is the theoretical courses
there was nobody to teach the M.Tech. students
and they were frantically looking for a person who could teach
the theoretical courses and there was an advertisement
local for other researche associates and so on.
So, they sent to some colleges and it came to Christian College also,
then my professor said why do not you take, try to,
I had just finished a Ph.D. at that time.
So, why do not you try for this research associate position?
I said I do not know programming,
I knew a little bit about FORTRAN programming,
but I have not worked with any computer system.
So, how can I apply for that?
No, you just try.
So, I applied.
Professor Mahabala called me to his house and he interviewed me.
Then he said what is your background and all that,
I said I do not have very good knowledge of programming,
but my area is the electrical computer science
and I had some very good publications at that time.
So, he said there are two courses to be taught.
Now, you have to teach them
and you sit along with the M.Tech. students
and learn other some topics of computer science.
So, ok I said.
Then I joined in October 1st 1975 as a research associate.
Now before I joined Professor Mahabala had to go to U.S.
for some reason and then he said I will be out of country when you join,
join and teach the M.Tech. students
regular expressions and finite automata.
So, the first day I joined around 9 o’clock I gave the joining report.
10 o’clock I took the class on regular expressions and then
11 o’clock I went to the administrative building to finish the formalities.
So, I was sitting with the M.Tech.
students for some time to learn the other topics of computer science.
And these two courses basically theoretical, I used to teach the M.Tech.
both were core courses.
And what?
So, after some time I became familiar with other topics also and then,
but still I continued to work in theory till the end I worked on theory,
but with the application to other areas.
IBM 370 was the machine at that time.
For me it was a very good experience
and I found it very nice to see this machine and
have the opportunity of working with the machine.
I tried to do programming and learned programming.
And also there used to be the punch card reader and
punch card printing machines at that time there.
All the jobs used to be printed in punched cards
and then they will submit it to the input, some counter will be there,
they will submit to the counter and then after 1 day or maybe
you submit in the morning they will select the output which is a printout
for in the printer and evening.
So, people used to do that.
From other departments other,
even from other universities people used to come and then
do the punched card work and then they submit and then go.
At that time they appointed two people for doing that alone.
This is because that punch card printing it requires some knack like typing.
But then it requires some knack
and so somebody cannot spend too much time on that.
I mean people working in research areas
this spent half the time on using the punch card reader
they will not have enough time for other things you know.
So, punch printing punch cards alone they appointed
one, Laxmi Venkatesh as I remember then another person
two people they appointed at the time.
I used to learn to use the machine and all that on Saturday’s,
because 5 days I used to work in the department,
the 6th day Saturday I put my first daughter in Kendriya Vidyalaya here.
So, morning I used to drop her and come and
sit the whole day in the computer centre,
learn other topics and so, it went like that I think.
To my, actually from what prompted me to move to computer science,
at that time, you know Professor A. Ramachandran was the Director,
he was supporting interdisciplinary work and research.
In fact he used to make people work in other departments also.
That is why I started, I mean, interacting with management department with
chemistry department, biotechnology department.
So, my head finally, yeah a kind of a comprehensive
background I could develop.
So, that actually prompted me to go to
to move to computer science department.
And that with the book, with my background you know,
I could move very easily and it was a seamless transfer.
I mean I will not say I had a problem,
but usually you know when you move to some other domain
you always feel the entrance effect, you know.
There is always some sort of a turbulence initially.
So, I could stabilize on the turbulence and then try to move forward.
So, my actual focus when I was in computer science department,
my I used to teach simulation and OR and database systems.
So, because I have been
accustomed to simulation even when I was in chemical,
So, I used to teach simulation of chemical plants.
So, in the same mode I started teaching this simulation subject.
How to simulate one machine on the other machine like PDP 11.
How to I mean simulate PDP 11 onto 370?
What are the parameters to be taken into account?
So, this kind of a problem I used to do.
I used to do simulation also for management people.
I used to teach simulation for management people
according to their needs and requirements.
And I used to teach OR alSo,
basic OR as well as advanced OR.
And I always concentrated more on application areas
whereas, I am a little bit I mean
doubtful about my competence in the theory.
So, I always concentrated on the application areas.
So, even my all the thesis that I have produced in computer science
they were all related to some sort of commercial application.
Like management games right,
it was one of the thesis which was very much appreciated
because you know without gaming
how do you now try to understand the
the commercial environment or the firmament.
So, this is one of the things which I used to do.
Since I was also interacting with Dr. Ramani
I used to be associated with all his projects, you know.
even in his research work;
like service after sales is one of the most important area you know.
So, in that way I have been actually
interacting with most of the departments.
Then I was also involved in CRD,
I think the Centre for Rural Development you must have heard of it.
In those days Professor Indiresan used to be
very very conscious about this particular aspect.
Because he wanted to contribute to appropriate technology
because there was a lot of threat ? against IIT you know
that people are not concentrating on appropriate technology.
They have not taking out,
they seem to work only for academic excellence right.
So, he wanted to prove that IIT’s can also be capable of
implementing appropriate technology.
So, we started a habitat in Narayanapuram right.
It is a very beautiful habitat.
At that time Professor Radhakrishnan was actually
steering that activity with the son of Dr. Bhagavantam.
So, he was also associated with cascade.
So, I was also involved in the design,
the design of biogas, because they wanted to put up a biogas plant,
then wind mills, then solar energy system, then the agricultural systems.
So, it was a very nice habitat.
If you look at the whole system you know they were very nice.
They wanted to replicate this kind of model
across the entire Coromandel Coast, ok.
So, for 2 years it was doing very well,
I do not know how it was all given up due to.
What reasons you know nobody knows;
because it was a very good one and I was also involved
in the design a biogas plant.
And we developed a system, scrubbing system,
to convert this biogas to get enriched methane
because biogas contains methane and carbon dioxide essentially.
So, if we now remove carbon dioxide it will get enriched methane.
In fact, we used to I mean adopt it for building purposes,
we also showed those experiments.
So, CRD was doing very well for about 2 years
later on how it got that kind of,
I mean why it was stopped,
it is a million dollar question.
So, who is responsible, how it has been stopped,
so the… Can I ask you a couple of questions, to add to this?
You had mentioned that your analysis for your Ph.D. work was computational.
You have done lot of analysis for your Ph.D. work.
What computers did you use?
Can you talk about that and about the
other computers that were on campus before the 370?
So, before it came Yes.
PDP 11 as you mentioned. I was Using at the Anna University, 1620, IBM 1620.
See, previously in Anna University had that particular computing facility.
The 1620, then they have 1130 and then 360, IBM 360 and then IBM 370.
That was the kind of hierarchy.
So, I was also,
I mean they gave me some permission you know from the institute.
So, I used to I mean work on 1620, IBM 1620.
That is not a multi-programming system, it is a.
About the PDP 11 sir, can you tell us some details?
It was there on campus I think.
Yeah, it was there in the electrical engineering department.
Yeah. So, we used to work on PDP 11
and see how this PDP 11 can be simulated on IBM 370.
How the, how do you measure that kind of components you know
the kind of software components,
how do you make 370 look like PDP 11.
A very interesting experiment you know.
So, these are the, see in my simulation regime,
So, I could show a few of these things you know
and then even while teaching I used to bring in all those aspects.
When did we get the PDP 11 sir, in IIT Madras?
The PDP 11,
when did we get it?
Maybe around 1976 or so.
I do not exactly remember so.
So, this was after the IBM came in?
Yeah, after IBM 370 came in,
So, we had that particular system. But earlier there were analog computers
Yeah, analog computers were there. brought over from..
Lot of analog computers were there.
So, initially you know it is a very interesting when I was in AC College,
I was working with the Professor Ramachandran,
I think if you heard he is the cousin of Dr. Sir C. V. Raman.
So, he actually brought out yeah computer,
analog computer called Lilavati right.
It will work for 3 simultaneous equations.
So, that is 3 equations 3 unknowns, you know.
So, you put it up and then later on you know it is a very
sad state of affairs you know he wanted to get a Nobel laureate
for his work on Collagen Model, right.
So, FORTRAN model he actually brought out
in the whole structure was designed by him.
He wanted to do it,
but unfortunately from Sweden somebody else has
actually done it and he could snatch away that Nobel Laureate.
So, he did the first analog computing you know,
Lilavati computer, 3 unknowns 3 equations.
I was working on that in fact,
that was my initial exposure to share about the analog computing,
so.. Professor Kamala you had mentioned you had worked with the
Dr.Siromoney.
Yeah.
Did you also work with Gift Siromoney?
Yeah.
Did you, what was it like and Both of them.
Both of them.
Yes.
Actually. And can you confirm it’s in 75 that you joined IIT Madras?
Yeah. Yes ok.
I joined in 75. Yeah tell us about your work, yeah.
Yeah, it is my thesis work was on array grammars.
And at the time there was a open problem
post by Professor Rosenfeld of University of Maryland.
And it was whether it is two classes intersect or
whether one is included in the other or some such question,
I do not want to go to the technical details of it.
And in my thesis, I attempted that
and then we solved the open problem
saying that the two classes intersect.
Ok.
And at the time it was a breakthrough research or something like that. Yes.
So, the Finland one person Solomon,
he was the major person working in that area at that time.
He appreciated and then he called this sort of parallels,
I mean my guide and I worked on that term.
So, that was published with both our names
and he called this type of parallelism Indian parallelism.
So, from that time onwards that particular type of
parallelism was called Indian parallelism.
And afterwards one Professor Kudlak from Germany
worked on that area and he did lot of work on that.
So, that is a theoretical area.
Afterwards when I joined here, as I told you,
I was teaching mainly the two theoretical courses.
And in 1982 the department was started.
From centre it became a department and I think 79 or 80, maybe 80,
we got the Prime Machine the first time IBM,
shifting from IBM 370 took place. Yes, yeah.
And the Prime Machine was bought at that time.
And what else to say yeah.
So, people start to work in the. There was a PC lab in the computer,
in the Centre. PC lab you know that Came later.
That came later.
That came later. Fine.
1982 the B.Tech. program was started.
And the Centre became a department.
The first batch of students,
18 students were admitted in 1982.
82, right.
They came out in 86, 1986.
So, I actually the for the first batch I took 4 courses.
Because alot of courses were theoretical at that time,
in fact OR also I taught for them
So, 4 of I think 4 courses and maybe one elective I taught,
and they used to call me class teacher for that particular batch.
And the PC, idea of PC was started around 86 or something like that.
We did not have email or internet,
all those things were not there at that time.
In 1985, the first time I went to abroad Germany,
I saw, I visited one professor from
and he showed me his system and then one
professor from Canada were had sent a mail to him.
It was so surprising for me that people could talk
or send mail in using systems and I was thrilled,
but email facility came to our department in 89 only.
The idea of PC was there. Definitely.
but it were implemented
when Professor Yegnanarayana was head of the department.
After Professor Muthukrishnan, Kalyana Krishnan took over,
that is the time when the Prime Machine was there and it was used,
but it is not PC, lot of terminals were there
instead of punch card machine and other tube then use a keyboard
and you can do the typing and all that.
But even then know, there was no sort of a graphical thing.
In IBM 370 you have a very big plotter
and when you want to plot a graph you had the
pen will plot the graph and so on. Yeah, right.
It was like that,
but here I mean the you can have something,
but it was not very this thing.
When PCs Professor Yegnanarayana wanted to
bring in the PCs in 1988 or 89
only we got the PC’s and then email facility we got in 1989 only.
But before that what happened was,
there was one project CLASS project,
I do not know the C L A S S
Computer Literacy and The BBC micro.
No. Yeah Right BBC micro. BBC micro. Right.
And Professor Mahabala was involved in that
and some selected schools were started chosen and then
they were given two systems or three systems
for school and then that teachers were trained in that.
Mainly four programs were taught; one was Excel sheet like that,
the other one was drawing things and Word Processor and things like that.
So that was one thing and that he was like things were taking place
so fast you know that 84 it was a major product everybody was thrilled,
school teachers were all thrilled and all that.
But in 87, 86 school started getting PCs.
And they started a computer science section and so on.
So, it had had no value after say 87.
The project was there till 90
and towards the end last 2-3 years
I was looking after the project CLASS project.
So, still many schools did not have the computer facilities.
So, we used to call the teachers and then train them a little bit and all,
but by itself so much say development has taken place know.
When I joined the department it was PL 1;
PL 1 was the what should Say it is a. Programming language
Programming like it was the that of the rule. Something in my mic
Or sasthara or something like that I would say
for Vedam or for the computer at that time.
Then Pascal came, came and so on there is a changes were taking place.
There was, even email facility was started in 89,
but it was not very, sort of,
some days it will work some days it will not work and things like that.
But there used to be something called Talk
and you can chat over the computer
and then O-Talk and then you have to give the other machines
and address or something like that.
So, that sort of thing was there,
O-Talk means old talk that some machine had only Talk
and if you have O-talk in one machine
and you hadTalk in another they will not
Collaborate it was. right.
Something like that till 93 and all,
internet came only in 97 98 or something like that.
at that time we had that Air Net project. Air Net.
And the Air Net project was handled by Professor Raghavan.
So, I mean lot of things change, started changing, PC maybe 88,
89 we started having PC labs and so on.
Then this emails was brought in 92 90 around 90;
91 90 like that I think after 99 that I do not know. 89 may be. 89
89. Yes mam.
Yeah 89. Or 90
Correct 89. Yeah mam.
This CLASS project which she was referring.
Yes.
It is a very interesting study that from UK we got a lot of machines.
BBC. BBC right. Very nice machines
and then we used to take them to the respective schools.
They had colour screens I think. Yeah.
Yes, colour screens. That was very beautiful.
Yes. You see and we used to take them to the schools you know,
it is a mobile system.
You know, and lot of teachers you know,
got trained in the in their system
and they started publishing papers in computer science.
So, even in central school because,
I used to be associated with a central school here,
now most of the teachers you know
they used to do the lot of work on computing
So, with that the system infact see we have a
Computer Centre and computer science department
are two separate units,
but they were all under the control of
the head of the department of computer science.
I took over as I said in 1989 December.
So, up to 1992 December then she took over from me.
So, when I was doing that you know two major events we could do,
of course, because of Professor NVC Swamy was then the director.
then she gave us a lot of support and solicitude
to the department of computer science.
In fact, as we did the,
during my regime only that networking
the entire campus networking was actually finished,
it was in a record time about one and a half years.
Within one and a half years the whole system is true is up,
I think you would have seen 19,
all the I mean computers are connected in all the hostels.
So, we had the data transfer, image transfer,
voice transfer; all the three lines are being put,
a very nice networking system.
But in some places we used fiber optics
because coaxial system was there throughout,
but in some places where we want speech you know.
So, we used to have this fiber optics system.
Then in the one more event which I could do,
as I said to bring in work station complex
also light of some of the stations we got you know.
So, lot of funding was given to us by Professor Swamy.
I thought I should be very grateful to him
for developing the department
by allocating few more funds to us at that time.
So, these are the two major things that I could do as a head,
but all the cooperation I got from all the faculty members, right.
So, I should say it with lot of pride that I could enjoy the
the cooperation unstinted cooperation
from our director from my colleagues
from people from other departments right.
So, it is So, one of the things which I could do.
Sir, could you tell us more about
who your colleagues were right from the beginning sir?
In what year? The early stages the faculty members
in the computer science department.
The first. first is of course Professor Mahabala.
So, he was my first colleague know,
then second is Professor Muthukrishnan,
then Dr. Kalyan Krishnan, then if I remember
Dr. S. V. Raghavan, then Professor Dr. Parameshvaran;
who was actually looking after AI laboratory.
In fact, he developed a very good AI lab also Artificial Intelligence lab
then Dr. Pandurangan, then this is Kamala Krithivasan you know.
So, who used to always tell me what I should do
and all that she has been guiding me also so to say.
So, these are all some of the people,
but in the Computer Centre
one is Mr. Sesha Sai you must have you must have heard about him.
Then Ramanujam, he is no more now,
then other faculty member
other members of the Computer Centre. Systems Engineer Srinivasan.
Doctor, no at that time Professor Natesh Kumar was the
System Manager initially when the IBM 370 was got.
Then later Mr. Srinivasan took over as a System Manager.
There was one Mr. Dheenadayalu I think.
Dheenadayalu was there yeah,
he was very very close to me and then he did lot of work for me
and then he co-operated very nicely.
So, we I could bring up a few improvements you know
in the Computer Centre also;
this is my.
So, the kind of projects I handled you know,
major projects I handled in computer science,
one is on agriculture.
So, it was a very interesting study.
So, it lasted for about 3 years.
So, they wanted to get a behavioral equation
for predicting the yield It is a forecasting equation right.
So, how to assess the effect of the
artificial fertilizers on the nativity fertilizers.
So, we have soil nitrogen, soil potash, soil phosphorus.
Similarly, we have the in the actual artificial system you have the potash,
nitrogen as well as phosphorus right,
how do they interact? It is a multi collinear system.
So, I thought it is not I have I mean absolutely no idea
because I am not an agriculturist.
So, initially I started off and I found that the system is not working.
I am always getting a negative sign on potash.
So, what does it mean?
Potash is detrimental to the growth of the plant, right?
At the time M. S. Swaminathan was also involved in this kind of study
because at that time Dr. Dhanabalan was the Director of agriculture
the State Agriculture Department.
So, he actually you know gave us this particular work to us.
So, I was actually a sponsor,
I was actually the person who was been involved completely in this work.
So, I had to interact with those people.
So, lot of experiments have been done in the
it is you know there is a research station. Research station.
So, we used to do that.
So, it was a very interesting study and it took lot of time for us to understand
how we could get over that negative sign.
So, we somehow managed
and we gave produced a lot of very nice equations
you know bigger equations to predict the yield
for different types of crops because you know we have the waterlevel
the spacing between the plants, right.
The kind of seasonality we have to take into account all those aspects.
So, we used what is called the ridge regression,
not the regular regression,
ridge regression concept for taking care of the multi collinearity.
This one product we in which I mean I attained
some sort of efficiency you know
because it was a it is a new thing for us at that time, at that point in time.
The second project I did was nutrition ok,
it is an American foundation project, it lasted for 3 years to 4 years.
So, it was to predict how many number of people are below the poverty line.
Lots of data were collected.
So, there were many investigation teams you know.
First it in group A, group B, group C;
they used to visit the same places and try to collect the data,
you know what would see quite surprisingly
the first investigation report,
second investigation report, third investigation report,
they are all divergent.
Same people have been interviewed,
same location you find different sets of data.
How do you organize,
in that kind of flagrant divergence of data
how to get a consistence of data?
This has been a major issue.
So, human date of processing unless you get the data consistency
whatever you know produce is not is a no a way you know
it is absolutely futile.
So, we have to do a lot of understanding at that time.
So many people are involved Dr. Nitin Patel, have you heard of them?
They from IBM, from I am sorry IIM,
Dr. Nitin Patel, then Dr. Sheth Planning Commission,
then Dr. Sambrani who was in Anand thing you know in Gujarat.
So, there are lot of people and my humble self you know
from IIT they are all great stalwarts you know.
So, the entire work was done in IBM 370.
So, that is one of the most interesting experiments you know
in a real time data;
I mean you can do something I mean academically.
But when it comes to the question of handling such kinds of data you know
it is very very difficult,
it is very formidable to get at the correct type of equation,
the correct type of scenario right statistical scenario.
And how to implement it also,
it is not just getting an equation;
you must know how to implement it in the real time scale
that has been a real problem.
In any process you know growth process,
the cardinal issue is one of sustainability right.
This has been a major problem in most of the practical applications.
I have a question about hardware sir.
At some time there was lot of interest in parallel computing.
Yeah. And super computing and so on and we had our initiative in
Bangalore I think where this Param computers so.
So, what was the reaction in our department,
was there any effort made to develop similar computers or what went on
what was the thinking then sir?
In Computer Centre,
in computer? In our department yes.
In our department to the extent.
I know of, I mean I know
till I was there I do not think we have developed any
parallel systems you know,
but personally I was actually interacting with some other groups you know.
So, there we could see there the parallelism you know
that compute. Was there any obstacle to developing hardware here or
there been a focus on software and operating systems and so on, isn’t it?
See in terms of parallel computing,
it is a question of reorientation.
See you do not I mean specially design a hardware. Right, Yeah.
it is a question of how you orient
the whole system to develop that kind of parallel path, right.
Distributed computing is absolutely everybody is very common,
everybody knows about it, right.
In fact, my one of my research work is on distributed computing
so on distributed simulation using the concept of distributed controlling.
That we did.
Can I?
Some of our earlier students,have been doing very well.
The earlier students were Kris Gopalakrishnan and Krithi Ramamritham
and people like that they are all in top positions today.
They were all I think 79, 80’s.
Many of our students went abroad and are
in very good positions and still doing very well as well.
And we had two big projects.
MHRD funded a lot of money to two projects,
information sciences and information technology.
So, through that we could buy lot of hardware I mean
PCs and then work stations and so on.
So that was the very big support from the MHRD and of course,
Director also supported a lot.
So, as far as I am concerned,
I have been interacting with the mathematics department
lot on theoretical aspects.
And in the later part of my career,
that is after 19; 1994 the idea of DNA computing was a big idea.
So, how can you do all the computing with DNA that was the question.
So, it is still not a success,
but at least lots a lot of research is going in that area.
So, I switch, it is also a lot of theory involved and
through I was started working on the area of DNA computing,
membrane computing or rather I would call it as
unconventional models of computing and so on.
So, in that once we tried to do a small experiment
using DNA with Professor Chandra of chemistry department.
So, but it was very difficult because one has to know
have a knowledge of lot of chemistry and lot of computation.
That yeah. Computing. What is computation. And so on.
So, we had a student who would was working with us
and he B.Tech. student he,
so he used to set up I and Chandra used to sit together,
but then what Chandra used to tell I do not know
I would not understand fully.
When she will translate like a French to German something like that. I see.
And what I used to just, she will not understand.
So, she used to translate
and then put it in her language or something that like. Right.
Like that it went on we I did the
calculation or whatever you have to do that theoretical part of it
with my help that student was then later she fabricated one
apparatus and by that time the student left for the U.S .finish his B.Tech.
So, another student somehow we finished with experiment
it was a good successful,
but then we did not want to spend too much time on,
I mean its full time job we had other work to do,
other research other things so on.
Another thing which I was working on was a motion planning
ROBO motion planning and so on theoretical aspects of it.
We had a Indo-German project on that.
So, I was the principal coordinator
and Professor Pandurangan was the co-ordinator.
So, we had some interaction with them,
I mean how something could be moved in the process of
moving obstacles and movable obstacles and things like that where
we had some more kind we had some Indo-Israel project also
on black coats and so on.
So, for that also people visited here and we visited there and so on.
We had some DST projects on this thing and,
later on Professor Panduranga moved on to cryptography.
You know, I was continuing with computational geometry
or motion planning and then I also moved onto that,
unconventional models of computing.
I introduced some new courses on that and we were thinking.
One of the interesting if someone she did
disaster management as I was mentioning to you along with Dr. Ramani.
Yes.
We developed an animation model
simulation model by taking 60 to 70 years of assigned data
and then we developed a very nice model.
In fact, we convened a conference of all the
district collectors, Dr. Ramani and myself,
we were actually doing that.
They looked at our model and then said
it is a very very nice model a very didactic model
very nice pedagogic model,
but will it solve that problem? Sorry.
You know their anxiety is
everything has been taken care of technically,
but what about the human truancy.
Suppose I want to put it in the real time scale the collectors feel
that the paramedical stop may not be available on that day,
they may go on leave right.
And people cannot be shifted to the shelters because they areadamant,
they do not want to move the premises.
So, they have been coaxed to move to the shelters.
So, can your model predict how to do this kind of problem?
How to reflect a human truancy in the model in the behavioral model?
Your model is very good academically.
We saw all the trajectory of the cyclone how it goes you know
what kind of things people should take care,
what are the remedial measures to be taken all that is very good.
But when of course, suppose when collector is out of station,
who used to do the delegation?
who is responsible for the financial commitment?
Now, these are all some of the one of the Collectors, very intelligent person,
now he has questioning is in all aspects of the practical problems.
So, we have to revise our models to take care of the human truancy, ok.
So, this is one of the things.
And another thing I want to
mention about our feedback from the students you know
which is very very interesting.
I was teaching this computing you know
you were there in the
You were there in that. Yes.
In that course you know, one of the students
in a feedback you know
we used to get the feedback from the students
one of the students you know wrote.
One of the students wrote,
“your lectures are very scintillating,
the teacher is unbiased not a intellectual verbal performed area,
simplicity in their sense of good teaching”.
I was foolish that I called him and asked him you have written in this way,
“No sir your lectures are very good,
but the contents are completely masked by your embellished English”. ok.
I said after see when you are now teaching 120, 150 students
they become restive after 15 minutes or 20 minutes you know,
they are all young people, vibrant people.
So, when I want to capture their attention what should I do?
I have to unleash my word power on them, ok.
He said that it is all very good sir, but people were all
I mean focused on your English not on the contents.
So, that is what then.
So, what he was trying to I mean tell me
please do not advertise the contents
please teach at the communicate the contents
that is the summonsed substance of his feedback.
Another very interesting feedback I got you know
these are all lot of feedbacks,
but all the all those feedbacks have given me a lot of boost you know,
what I should do and what I should not do.
A are very young chap you know from 12th standard
he is now commenting on your lecture.
Another feedback, when I was
I need to have much time to prepare I used to
teach humiliation for the M.Tech. program,
then after the actual courses
I asked them, usually I used to hobnob with those people.
So, I asked them what is the feedback.
I was rewarded with counterfeit Greece you know
they were just laughing in their sleeves,
I asked him what is the matter.
They said sir out of 42 lectures
22 lectures were very good; they are all from Professor Nagarajan,
the other 20 lecture does not seem to be from Professor Nagarajan.
So, what does it mean?
They are not up to the mark,
but how nicely they have put that kind of feedback you know,
it is not in the affirmative,
but the kind of diplomacy and the sensibility they had
in expressing that I mean descent in such a fine way.
So, this is one of the feedback.
Another feedback when I was teaching thermodynamics, right,
I used to be very fond of thermodynamics.
So, I taught them, I taught them in a holistic way,
in which way in a very nice way.
I do not teach first law of thermodynamics,
second law, third law in that way.
I said the entire thermodynamics is based on PVT right.
So, unless the measurements are done properly
all your derived quantities are absolutely useless. Right.
Yes
So, I started in that way,
I brought in the Bridgman Table and then from there I derived
law I, law II, law III, isnt it?
So, in the textbook this kind of holistic approach is not given.
They will say first law of thermodynamics, second law, third law.
So, we felt what is this man doing?
So, you know about the kind of feedback I got the
I wanted to get the best feedback for my thermodynamics,
I got the worst feedback.
So, what is best for you is not best for the others you know.
A very interesting feedbacks I had.
Number of, say I can keep on talking about the feedbacks because
all those feedbacks are not meant to hurt you hurt your susceptibilities.
Yes.
They are meant to give you the kind of performance you have
shown in the classroom very interesting,
in that way I use to appreciate all the IIT students you know.
That they do not have any reservation,
at the same time they have do not hurt you also.
What you are in the class is being assessed in the right way
and in the right sense,
a one of the things which I used to enjoy,
I used to bask in the warmth of such feedbacks.
Ok.
Sir can you tell us about your experience in the campus as you saw it
Yeah. because you have seen it from 1960 or 61.
Yeah. It is a it is a very interesting life. It is a.
I moved into the campus in 1962 right,
I moved out in 1994,
32 years I have been by the of this
Sylvan surroundings you know pastoral surroundings.
But initially there were no paths they were all meandering path you know,
in the night you cannot go alone.
So, we used to move in the group.
And our companions are our snakes you know.
You will see lot of snakes moving around ok.
And they do not harm you.
So, long as you do not harm them,
they do not harm you.
So, they will be doing that.
So, no lights at that time no proper roads right.
So, we used to walk around while Dr. Venkateswarlu who was then the
Head of Department of chemical engineering we all walk together ok,
talking about the campus.
It is a very nice scenery and it has a pastoral look
and it is very conducive for your growth and development you know.
So, a very nice life in the campus,
social life is very good, there are lot of activities.
In fact, I was the Secretary and the Vice President of the Staff Club.
So, I brought in this open cricket you know the
Dr. Ramachandran’s Trophy.
So, when I was the Secretary and the Vice President
then I brought this kind of an activity from the Staff Club.
Then I also brought in the district tournament in chess.
So, these are the two activities I did you know
when I was in the staff club.
Social activities are excellent and people used to move with each other.
There is so much of amity, there is so much of fraternity
and there is so much of harmony.
So, the life was very very interesting in the campus.
If somebody has not utilized or taken advantage of this ambience,
I do not know what to say about that person.
Exactly. Yes, I did not live in inside the campus.
So, I do not have to say much about it,
but I want to say about the NPTEL programme.
So, that was late in after 2010 it was,
I mean other universities colleges
they really are benefited by this program.
We have recorded lot of things in all subjects in NPTEL
which is then the it has been uploaded.
Students and teachers they are regularly using that.
I had given about 40 lectures on
discrete mathematics and 42 on automata theory.
And this even till now you know whenever people see me
where sometimes in the airport you are sitting or this
suddenly somebody comes in,
are you Kamala Krithivasan
I have been benefited by your lectures
too much or something like that Ok.
because of that I also wrote two books
one on automata theory with Professor Rama of math’s department,
another one as adaptation work of Professor Rosen’s book,
these two books are still being used in lot of colleges and universities.
So, and other thing is one of the things
with the Indian culture about my work is about kolam patterns.
My Ph.D. thesis was on array grammars,
it had one chapter on how to generate kolams using array grammars.
Ok.
And later on I was I went to U.S.
under the Fulbright fellowship.
Then from there I went to Canada and there I worked with one professor
they call them Professor P University of;
I just went there for about a week or so.
So earlier we met in US in a conference and then he invited me to go there.
There he had written some program and he used to
how to draw kolam patterns.
Using some are repetitive type.
Some are, he can draw a bigger version of it just by giving the iteration.
So, something called L systems were used for that
grammar form called L systems
and if you write a grammar with 3 - 4 rules
and then it will generate beautiful patterns.
Also, it could generate some flowering patterns and things like that also,
but my work was mainly on kolam patterns
how to generate all the write the grammar.
I used to write the grammar and give it to him,
he has written the program and then some
spline approximation and all, later it used to do the curves and
And after came back from the trip
where some of the M.Tech. students did as project
and they developed more and more on that.
Do we have working I mean demonstration models of those programs?
I do not have the demonstration I have some photographs.
Of the columns themselves yes. Yeah.
Photographs I have.
Ok, yes.
My.
What happened to the IBM 370 sir after it was?
After its life was over the IBM 370,
did we retain it or what we did we?
No, it was being sold to CMC corporate that.
They took it.
Computer Maintenance Corporation. Yes.
So, we had some problems also because it came as a gift
in what way we should sell it to CMC.
So, there were many audit objections also.
I see.
They need to somehow manage to cover up you know.
Yes.
So at that time. I was the head you know Yeah.
so. Not for them, I do not think , So. Yes.
Then Siemens computer was brought in and then we have about
more than 32 terminals being connected to Siemens
which are all very interesting experience and experiment.
So. So, the Siemens was in turn sold off?
Was it disposed off the Siemens or the?
Which one? The Siemens system.
Where? The Siemen.
Siemen system. After it was.
Siemens I think it was still there. Also sold.
Then it was all I mean it is still there.
So long as I was there Siemens was still there.
But later on what happened because. It was replaced.
Yes. Don’t know what happened to that Siemens system.
Siemens also was there. Right. Later better systems were there.
That is right.
So, I moved out in 1994.
So, now it is around 23 years since I left the Right.
organization you know,
so many developments would have taken place. That is right.
Actually in 1992 Centre was separated from the department.
When I took over as head of the department,
I have handling only the department,
centre was separated at that time and systems were.
very nice that time when this was actually moved out
they wanted to separate
computer science department from Computer Centre. Centre
because. At the time N V C Swamy was there.
So, I was a little bit adamant you know.
I do not want the Computer Centre to be dissociated from the
computer science department. Right.
So, they receive a lot of exchange you know
between me and the Director,
but it was all solved in my favor.
Right.
So, very nice days you know.
Yes.
In IIT and then I learnt a lot of things from this group,
from students, from my colleagues ok.
And it was a very interesting veridiction.
When I retired it will not considered as only a departmental event,
you are considered as an institute event.
So, the in the she was the one who actually organized that valediction.
And in the central lecture theatre
So, all the departments had been invited
and they put up a conference also on the valediction day.
Ok.
And it was a very memorable day.
I am always nostalgic about that great event.
Do you have photographs from that event sir?
Photographs I do not have.
Do you have such photographs?
No.
Department Because it must be there somewhere you know,
I will try to get some of the photographs you know. Yes,
I would really like to see. Because I thought at this age I do not need such photographs.
Yes sir. So, that is what I felt you know.
You were so interdisciplinary,
so its quite understandable I think, Yeah yeah. Yes.
But very nice time. Very happy time right. Yeah.
There may be a few ripples you know
that always be there in a system
unless you have some friction there is no.
There is no enjoyment you know.
My hobby is literature,
I always have a natural flare for literature.
I used to read up lot in poetry especially.
Milton’s poetry, Wordsworth, Keats..
Do you have any anecdotes..Anecdotes either of you please.
Anecdotes I was telling you about my own students you know.
So, very interesting some sometimes you know you have to be
on the pros you know even kids now challenge you.
They have this iPads.
See when I was waiting for the Aadhaar Card,
So, one kid you know UG that is upper kinder
she was sitting and she was trying to do something on the iPad,
I asked her what are you doing that she said;
thatha, this one grandpa this is I am trying to do some games
do you like to see.
Then she showed me the games and she wanted me to play.
She was explaining,
I could not understand.
So, I could not do that.
She asked me what are you doing?
I am doing computing,
I am a professor in computer science you know.
What were you doing? You did not know even this?
I mean I was really.
I mean even the kids will challenge you now.
You have to be careful because they know better.
Especially.
Especially with this Smartphone and mobile. Yes.
Because of the Smartphone see they are able to. how to.
They search, download the picture they are able to visualize the picture.
And we also feel happy that you should be challenged
by those, tiny tots you know. Yes.
It was very nice interacting with such a intelligent students in ours.
We used to get, first 100 ranks no. You know what I said.
That is right computer science. Then I said.
Every minute of teaching I used to enjoy. See.
The minute you talk you know they will be thinking 5 steps ahead.
I asked her. And I said.
How did you get the data from,
where from you will get it on the iPad.
You do not know, it is from the digital sky.
have you anybody heard of the word digital sky?
For the first time I heard from that tiny tot.
She said no no grandpa,
everything is got from the digital sky.
So, very very interesting to be with them
to chat with them to know things from them;
so. Modern technology has so much you know improved that
I mean through Skype and all the people learn now everything from Skype.
Actually, for the last 2-3 years I have been helping my granddaughter
in mathematics geometry and things through Skype. I see ok.
My daughter is in US, my son-in-law also in US.
my granddaughter has written a book,
it is published in Amazon on Startup Companies.
How you should start up a company,
what are the things you should take care. Right.
A very very interesting book and now
I have given my own comments on those book.
Sure. So, because I am also attached to
some of the industries after my retirement.
So, now, the modern technology has changed no,
there is no question for they the kind of programming that we used to do.
Yes, yeah.
Everything is available in as open source, like BECA,
now we talk about BECA, we talk about Rapid Miner, we talk about R,
we talk about Splunk, Tabula, KNIME.
So, many softwares are available now,
floating around in the cyberspace.
So, people can make use of them
and then they get the federation of all those
open source software also.
Now, it is a now the technology has changed you know
considerably and people they need not have to spend time
or effort in programming. Right.
The subjective level had been taken to objectivity level now.
So, I thank once again the Heritage Centre
for the opportunity given to us to share our thoughts,
random thoughts with the group. Yes.
Thank you sir yes.
Again I also thank the Heritage Centre.
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