Prof. R. Natarajan in conversation with Prof. T. Sundararajan
A very good morning, sir.
You are my teacher, Head of the Department,
Director and research mentor also.
It’s my great pleasure to be interacting with you
and talk to you about the good old times at IIT Madras.
So, you had done your undergraduate education at
University College, Bangalore followed by
Prof. Natarajan: Yes. Prof. Sundararajan: Master's degree in IISc,
Prof. Natarajan: Yes. Prof. Sundararajan: and then another Master's and Ph.D.
from University of Waterloo in 1970.
So when did you join IIT Madras, sir?
September of 1970.
I had come here on a vacation,
Prof. Sundararajan: Yes. Prof. Natarajan: and then K. Ramachandran,
he was my teacher at the Indian Institute of Science.
So he asked me if I was interested in a
faculty position at IIT Madras,
because they were just…at that point of time
they were recruiting new faculty members.
So I said, “Yes” and I attended the interview,
and they selected me and then I had a little bit of
an issue whether to join…I could have…could have
you know pack up and
come back to India, or to go back to Canada
because I had a post-doctoral research fellowship
in Canada at that time.
So I deci…my…of course, obviously,
the influence of parents and so on,
and therefore, I joined IIT Madras,
and I am glad I did
because I’ve had a…1970 to 2000; about 30 years of
active academic service at IIT Madras
which is by all accounts,
one of the best institutions in the whole world.
Not only in India, but also in the whole world.
The…what you have said about
my education and early experience,
a couple of gaps there.
I worked in Tata Power Company for about 6 months,
and then in…in…in Canada again
as a post-doctoral research fellow for about 6 months.
Otherwise my career is complete, as you have mentioned.
Prof. Sundararajan: Yeah. Prof. Natarajan: You know I…I have to say something about you;
you were one of…you have been one of our best students,
and then of course, you went abroad for your Ph.D.,
and when you came back,
I think you fitted very naturally
into the academic system at IIT Madras,
and I know you have been there since…at the time you joined,
but you joined IIT Kanpur first, right?
Prof. Sundararajan: Yes sir, 1985.
Prof. Natarajan: So you joined IIT Kanpur and
and we…we pulled you…you away from Kanpur to…
Prof. Natarajan: and I…I hope that we have [indistinct] Prof. Sundararajan: And in ‘93 I shifted to IIT Madras, sir.
Shifted, okay, and I hoped you have had a satisfactory and…
Prof. Sundararajan: Fantastic time, sir, great time.
Prof. Sundararajan: Yes. Prof. Natarajan: And my complaint against you was
that you take on too much to do.
So, in many, many items we…we would be
afraid to take on all those responsibilities.
Prof. Sundararajan: Yes. Prof. Natarajan: From the beginning…
you know when I joined IIT Madras as I have said,
Dr. A. Ramachandran was the Director,
and we have a natural fit also,
because, he was also interested in curricular matters
in not only delivery of education,
but also in the creation of knowledge.
Therefore, we had a natural fit.
And that relationship also worked very well.
Prof. Sundararajan: Yes. Sir, before 1970
did you have an opportunity to visit IIT Madras, sir?
No, not really, I didn’t come here.
Prof. Sundararajan: But your brother studied here in IIT Madras.
Yes, but much earlier than that, probably the second batch.
So, ‘60 or…to ’63, he was in the 3-year programme,
Prof. Sundararajan: Yes. Prof. Natarajan: so I did visit IIT Madras.
Prof. Sundararajan: Okay. And…the reasons for my joining the Institute;
I had a preference for an academic career,
and as I mentioned earlier,
we had heard a lot about IIT Madras,
except that we were understaffed as usual,
and the facilities had not been established,
therefore, the people who came much earlier,
for example, the faculty members who are there now,
they owe a debt of gratitude to the
administration and the funding agencies,
before they joined.
They probably think that…that everything was
ready and operational by the time we joined. Not at all,
as…as you are talking about my brother,
they were staying in a hostel outside the Institute
when the campus was being built.
Prof. Sundararajan: Built. Prof. Natarajan: So I have a small grouse there.
If you look at the AICTE requirements,
because I have been a regulator,
regulations, a lot of things have to be in place,
both academic as well as extracurriculars,
stay arrangements and a whole lot of things.
And the…for the faculty families, the support infrastructure
before the students come in and start…starting their education.
However, even now,
Institutes have started, announcements are made,
and then the campus is getting prepared,
that is really not at all a good policy.
What you lose is about 3 years.
It…because it takes about 3 years to set up a campus.
A real case in example is the IIT in Hyderabad;
at the moment they have a very nice campus,
but when they started,
and I was the Chairman of a 3 member committee
to decide on the location of the IIT in Hyderabad.
There were three options and
we chose what we thought was the best option.
But the point is, when they joined,
it was a temporary campus,
whereas now, it is a very well designed…
probably one of the best campuses.
So you are…the…the students who join,
they are deprived of a whole lot of
necessary and desirable infrastructure.
Even…even today, you must…you must have seen
in the newspaper that the faculty shortage
in each of the IITs is about 30 percent or 35 percent.
So that is at…you…you are
deceiving the students, who have joined you
in the hope that…that…that they will get wholesome education.
Prof. Sundararajan: Yes. Prof. Natarajan: So that…that is part of the issue.
Prof. Natarajan: So… Prof. Sundararajan: Then IIT Madras also, the initial thing…
Prof. Sundararajan: the classes, were they held outside IIT, sir?
Prof. Sundararajan: In AC Tech or something?
Prof. Sundararajan: Initially in IIT Madras? Prof. Natarajan: Yes, yes,
at IIT Madras, quite right,
It took a long time for them to establish the departments.
But they had an advantage; that German
academic faculty…m…m…members from 5-6 universities,
they were called the Madras Committee,
they had a Madras Committee at that time
and they designed the syllabus,
they designed the important infrastructure,
and, at that time, because of the importance
that Germany gave for working by hand,
Prof. Sundararajan: Yeah. Prof. Natarajan: or the practical knowledge and experience.
In fact, they used to have I don’t...I don’t think
you know about it also, they had
Prof. Natarajan: an academic week and a technical infrastructure week Prof. Sundararajan: I went through that, sir.
Prof. Sundararajan: In fact, in… Prof. Natarajan: You went through that?
Prof. Sundararajan: Yeah. So we had one week of…academic week Prof. Natarajan: Oh, great!
and then next week was workshop week.
Whole week you know, five and half days;
Monday to Saturday, half a day, it was a workshop.
So we went through that system.
A lot of emphasis on practical work,
Prof. Sundararajan: laboratory work and so on, Prof. Natarajan: Yes.
and 5 years of programme.
So what is your impression about 5 years to 4 year, sir?
Has it diluted the programme or?
No, the 4 years was made essentially because of the fact
that in the higher secondary…
or the secondary or intermediate for example,
they learned a lot of maths and physics and chemistry,
which need not be repeated.
Even today as you know, there is quite a bit of repetition
in terms of physics, chemistry, mathematics,
although workshop and drawing were different.
I think it was a good idea to reduce the…
because we also wanted compatibility between
the US system and the…the…the Indian system,
whereas, the German system and the Indian system;
many, many differences because
the basic degree was a 5 -year diplom.
Prof. Sundararajan: Diplom. Prof. Natarajan: Yeah, but because of commercial and the other interests,
they also fell in line with the international practices.
So there, they have a 4-year undergraduate programme.
Sir, one more thing is
initially as it was an annual examination system, sir?
Prof. Natarajan: Right, right. Prof. Sundararajan: So, like this university,
and later on the semester system came.
Prof. Sundararajan: So did you feel that Prof. Natarajan: more than
going from annual to semester was an improvement or…
Prof. Sundararajan: what is your opinion about that? Prof. Natarajan: Internationally, as you know,
we have the semester system.
In…recently I was in an advisory committee,
to convert the conventional engineering programme from a
semester system to a trimester system.
This was an institution
which was famous for…it is in Bombay,
is famous for their management programme.
They felt that they could follow the same practice,
but then, I was one of the principal advisers
who suggested that it will not work in engineering.
The reason why the annual was changed
to semester was because,
continuous evaluation, and you could have the tests
and semester examinations
and also more subjects can be managed.
If it is an annual thing, it will be more difficult,
and the other consideration…
taking the students’ interests into consideration was
that students study only before the examinations,
they do not have a continuous study and evaluation.
I think the semester system is probably the ideal;
neither the annual system nor the trimester system.
Trimester systems used to be suitable for
the management programmes
where you have to study a large number of subjects.
Sir, when we were students, the emphasis was more
on the undergraduate programmes,
but slowly the emphasis seems to have shifted
towards PG programmes and research.
So what is your observation on this, sir?
Here I will tell you,
you see the number of undergraduates you can handle,
but the load…more important than the teaching load is the
marking of grading of both
term papers as well as the final exam papers.
Now, the alumni of IIT Madras
seem to have a very strong opinion about this,
I will tell you the reason also for this:
They felt that the undergraduate students is
too valuable a programme
to dilute or reduce in magnitude or
increase the emphasis on postgraduate programmes.
In fact, a group of…I was in Canada at that time,
a group of alumni met us
because we were from the same Institute, senior alumni,
they said, “For god's sake do not
remove or dilute the undergraduate programme.”
Prof. Sundararajan: Okay. Prof. Natarajan: The reason for that; the IITs are known
more for the undergraduate programmes
than for the postgraduate programmes
including the Ph.D. programmes.
I happened to meet a US faculty member,
fairly senior person in Dubai at a conference.
And, he said, “I know I have seen…”
he was…he was a…he was an American,
and he said, “Thank you for feeding
good undergraduate students to us
as course…as graduate students.
Without them we will not be able to do our research.”
So, he also suggested that our undergraduate programme…
and we also know that they are the star products
for many reasons. You…you get good quality students
and even though we provide them with good education and infrastructure,
they don’t actually value it.
While…and students don’t value it.
We have had the meetings of current and alumni discussions,
and if you ask this…the current students,
“Which do you think is the most important contributor,
significant contributor for your education?” and so on.
They never used to talk about the Institute infrastructure,
nor of the faculty member for whom
they have the least respect.
But, they said it is because of the
interaction among the current students.
What interaction do they have, I would like to find out.
Anyway, you know, that’s a rather tongue in cheek response,
but it is true that you put bright students
who…if…if they want to study very hard
of course, the facilities that are available.
But the interaction among them,
you know that’s why in many of the US universities
you will know that
when they choose the students, they choose a good mix of
students with different capabilities
and different interests and things like that.
So I…I…you know, in fact, every Head of Departments…
at the meeting of the Heads of Department, I used to ask the Heads,
“Which is our most important contribution as an institution?”
It is undergraduate institution.
So, the question was, “When do you make this institution
where the star products, or the postgraduate students,
the graduate students?”
And, there is also the
feeling that we have an inverted pyramid;
the best of school leavers they become graduates,
and the best of graduates of course, go to industry, go abroad.
And, what we get as postgraduate input
is not as good as that of the undergraduates,
and the Ph.D., it is those who couldn’t find job
even after the post-graduation.
They…you know, because of the fellowship, they felt that
this…this was a common perception.
Even now it is there, perception.
But things have changed to some extent, sir, quite a bit.
They…we find that
both at the Master’s level as well as the Ph.D. level,
there are some good students.
I would say 10-20 percent are fairly good,
and of course, Institute as such,
its ranking, and you know whatever
the world sees you know, about the Institute,
the view will be improved only
if we get good publications and
even the…our faculty
who are selected from best among the world,
whatever output is there,
that has to be seen out…in the outside world.
So, undergraduate education alone will not…you know,
of course, it’s a good product, we should not dilute it,
but at the same time I think
research plays a very important role also.
So, what do you feel about the PG students in general, sir?
You know, nationally, I can talk about it.
What is happening is the PG students
you know, you have the best of the undergraduates as I mentioned,
Prof. Sundararajan: Yeah. Prof. Natarajan: they get jobs, industrial jobs
and very few of them are interested in research or teaching.
Of course, they want to get the maximum education
before they start delivering that education to people.
However, at the moment there is a real issue;
employment and employability of the postgraduate students.
As you know when the companies come to the campus,
they are not interested in interviewing the postgraduate students.
First they would like to take a look at the undergraduate students.
This this is a serious issue, and that is why
people like S. Gopalakrishnan formerly of Infosys,
he has set up some incubation centres,
entrepreneurship training and things like that
in Kerala, that’s where he comes from.
And he has given a large amount of money
for these things to be set up.
Now, when I…I was in the IIT many years ago,
there used to be a ranking of the best Asian universities:
Japan, Korea…China was not yet a significant part,
and IIT Madras was almost always in the first three.
And we used to be very proud of that.
The interesting…this is the magazine Asia Week;
they became more and more sophisticated,
and they…when I…they stopped doing it
after the QS and the THE ranking;
the Times Higher Education rankings.
They became famous because that was global,
it was only Asia.
They used to have as one of the parameters,
internet connectivity for student.
So they had become quite…
you know, mature and sophisticated.
And, we always used to come within the first three
and we were very happy, and I had a committee
to look at the reasons why we were not number 1.
Prof. Sundararajan: Number 1. Prof. Natarajan: I believed in rankings
many people do rank and…and I have done some
work on ranking the academic rankings.
And, it is very important to
benchmark your institution with the others
Prof. Natarajan: and the rankings provide an opportunity for doing that. Prof. Sundararajan: Yeah.
Prof. Natarajan: Of course, there are some fraudulent activities. Prof. Sundararajan: Yeah.
You know you take advertisements in our journals and
Prof. Sundararajan: Yeah. Prof. Natarajan: attend our conferences, sponsoring them.
And they get slightly higher ranking.
But however, the methodology itself has become
Prof. Natarajan: very sophisticated. Prof. Sundararajan: Yes, yes.
Prof. Sundararajan: Sir… Prof. Natarajan: So when I became the…
Prof. Natarajan: yes? in…you have been in the Mechanical Department
from 1970 to about 2000 or so.
What changes did you observe
in the department, sir, during this period?
Actually to tell you the truth, not many.
It also means that we had had a certain level of maturity
which need not be changed.
So, a department consists of
Prof. Natarajan: faculty members of different specializations. Prof. Sundararajan: Specialization.
The undergrad, the labs and the
experiences for the undergraduates
and the research infrastructure
as well as the climate for the postgraduates.
More and more what I have seen is that the
younger faculty members, they are not interested in teaching,
they have…basically interested only in research and
activities which promote the publication of journals.
So teaching used to get a very low priority among the
Prof. Sundararajan: Okay Prof. Natarajan: faculty members.
It was very difficult to make them teach new courses,
even though the curriculum was changing…being changed,
keeping with the changing
industrial and research environment elsewhere.
But the faculty members stuck to
their…their own in…individual research,
and also publish or perish was the basis for faculty promotions.
And one of the other factors here is,
you could…you could not even get young faculty members
to take on administrative positions
wardens or members of committees and so on,
because it would detract from their mainstream activity.
I understand even now it is very true.
Is that true now?
No, no there are people
who are interested in administration,
there are people who are not interested,
who would like to concentrate on the research.
So we get all sorts of people, that was not a problem.
Alright, and of course, the…the…the
the kind of that…the…the mix of
topics on which the faculty members work,
they have also changed considerably.
Because, internationally…
and usually people do not want to take up
work that involves lot of experimentation
and labs. Almost everybody has gravitated towards computer.
No, no not really,
now the materials area has really expanded,
so people are looking at micro, nano scale things,
in every area, whether its mechanical or
chemical or metallurgy or whatever.
So those kind of current areas, a lot of people are working,
and then energy related research is also going on.
And you were aware of the combustion research also,
where you have helped us really.
Prof. Sundararajan: The combustion research NCCRD. Prof. Natarajan: You know for example,
Mmhmm, yes…there is a lot of potential,
we hope it will serve the country,
we can…we have very severe requirements in combustion.
And for…for example, you know Ajit Kumar
Kolar of Heat Transfer,
he almost transferred the
fluidized bed combustion facility from New York,
because he worked there and they did not have
much interest in that subsequently
to our IIT, but I understand that
the activities there are petering out.
People are interested in…
you know they…they like to do modelling of
Prof. Sundararajan: Modelling. Prof. Natarajan: FBC and so on, but not so much.
This is really something that is happening
all over the world, it’s not only for us.
Sir, experiments at the system level,
they don’t have much…
you know people don’t respect it very much.
You have to do work at the minute level at the point or may be
you know, extremely localized measurements done
all over you know, the system
and then get a lot of data and process the data,
also compare that with predictions.
So it has become more intense.
If you do experimental work at that level it is respected,
but system level measurements,
so…so you take an IC engine and
measure input output, that kind of research is not respected.
So it is difficult to publish that kind of work.
What has happened is
the students have become very sophisticated,
we require sophisticated instruments,
lot of money has been invested,
either you do research at that level,
or you know, experiments at system level
are not getting much respect,
that is the problem.
So it has become very expensive in the process.
Yes, you are right…
my…my faculty supervisor used to say
that nature and reality
are only in experimental work.
Prof. Sundararajan: Yes sir. Prof. Natarajan: What you do with computers and
theoretical analysis has to be validated
you know, by actual experiments,
but very difficult to…there are many…Murphy's laws are there
regarding experimental…if anything can go wrong, they definitely will.
I have one observation,
sir, when I came from Kanpur,
I found that in Mechanical Department,
all the labs were more or less isolated
and like water tight compartments,
Prof. Sundararajan: and people are doing work Prof. Natarajan: Yeah
you know, individually and not…
and most of the work is interdisciplinary.
Today in fact, you have to be doing interdisciplinary research
if you have to be counted.
So what is your observation on…you know, the earlier things
and how things evolved over a period of time?
See IIT Madras had a great advantage;
that the German system was adopted
because of the presence of the German professors
there and their assistance with being focused on
Indo-German kind of a cooperation and so on.
As a result of which, we invite several
very desirable practices from German system;
can you imagine, in a Mechanical Department,
Thermodynamics and Combustion is a separate lab,
Heat Transfer and Thermal Power a separate lab,
Hydro Power a separate lab,
Prof. Natarajan: you could not imagine in any other institute, therefore, Prof. Sundararajan: Yeah, yeah.
there was a certain culture
which was developed in each of these areas,
and I benefited from that because
Thermodynamics and Combustion are
naturally more closely related than,
let us say Heat Transfer and Combustion for example.
Therefore, there is quite a bit of basic studies
which happened in each of these individual…
they have…they are not different disciplines,
but different parts of Mechanical Engineering,
but grouped in a very…very wise manner.
So that was very good.
There are of course, some disadvantages of the German system;
are...[indistinct] you
when you are comparing IIT Kanpur,
all the faculty were put together in a faculty
in house, therefore the interaction was very intense,
whereas, in our Institute, except for the
few labs which were around the cafeteria,
so the faculty members…we used to go to the cafeteria together,
Aeronautical Department and so on.
Therefore, the interaction, even though
not much academic interaction takes place,
but still the fact that we were close to each other,
it helped in several ways.
For example, if you wanted to borrow some equipment,
and if somebody whom you knew
through your coffee interactions,
if you ask them, more often than not,
because at that time the pieces were just coming in,
and there were at much demand.
I have a few other things to talk about our Institute,
where I had some contributions to make.
Prof. Sundararajan: Yes, sir. Prof. Natarajan: And that is, I looked at the different systems
and I felt that, you see,
I brought ISO 9000 to IIT Madras,
the first IIT to have it.
Because, I had several interactions with professional people,
both though professional societies
as well as through my personal relations.
And then I found for example, in one of these companies,
it was ICI…which became subsequently the company.
They had ISO 9000
and you could feel the…the…the existence of ISO 9000,
the place was very clean,
the quality policy was exhibited all over the place,
and each person had a sense of responsibility
and belonging to that institution.
Therefore, when I discussed having it in IIT Madras,
the faculty member of cour…of course, felt that
it was not suitable for an academic institution.
But my argument, which ultimately prevailed over
that there are many activities in an academic institution
which are similar to what happens in industry.
For example, if…workshop if you take a look at it,
it is a shop where students are trained,
but also products can be made
and sophisticated equipment can be utilized.
Now library, administrative section,
they all have similar
you know, characteristics as the industry.
So…and for that you need a lot of
training of the technical and support staff
and not only that, you need a
certain amount of coordination among them.
So the two or three supplementary things we did,
which fell in line with what industry, it does.
For example, you have to define a quality policy,
you have to train the people in quality assurance.
So we had a lot of training programmes,
and you also printed the
quality policy because Toyota does this;
that is you print this at the
back of a calendar in a pocket calendar.
And the…that explanation for this was
that you keep it in your pocket, the gentlemen
and it is close to the heart.
It’s so, and I found subsequently at some meetings,
that our faculty members were very
proud of our institution having ISO 9000,
particularly the workshop people.
Because, when they move about with other mechanics
and the foremen and so on of other factories for example,
they were proudly mentioning that
IIT Madras has ISO 9000.
Obviously, it is not really applicable to academic activities,
where accreditation is the important means of assuring,
now there again I was very lucky,
that our…particularly our alumni in the US,
they kept asking, “How…
what is your quality assurance mechanism?”
Therefore, we had several committees
consisting of the best of
industry people and their faculty members
in different departments,
and they spent 3 days…
2 or 3 days, I forget which one,
looking at different departments,
and for me luckily, the Computer Science Department
and the Electrical Engineering Department volunteered
to be examined by a group of peers.
And we had a final mean…almost similar to the accreditation practices
which take place by…through MBA,
but this was not happening in the other institutions.
Subsequently, I understand
that the other IITs also did this.
So they had a very intense interaction
with the faculty members of the department.
And we were surprised in the administration that
Computer Science came forward,
because they were all very bright
and proud faculty members.
They took it very seriously
and every 6 months this happened
and at the end of the 6 months,
they had to report again back to the committee;
what changes they have made,
what improvements they have made.
Therefore, there were many good things that happened,
and the other thing that I was very much interested in…
in defining a strategic plan for the institution.
And, unlike many other institutions
where the all the Heads of Department sit together,
and over a period of a week,
they evolve a strategic plan.
Because I have contacted
several academic leaders in US,
and they all told me the involvement
and the participation of the faculty member
or the concerned stakeholder is very important.
Because yes, you can define the plan,
but if you want to implement it,
you need the cooperation and commitment of
the each of the faculty members.
So that is something that we did.
And I’m glad that the practice is being continued
under the present administration, also they have
come up with two other strategic plans,
but I am little disappointed that
they did not show as…as reference
for their thinking and activities,
the plan that Professor Ananth and I had
Prof. Natarajan: Come…come up with. Prof. Sundararajan: Yeah.
And, for the first time, I use external
faculty members and industry specialists
to advise the IIT.
Normally, IIT was considered to be a resource,
where their knowledge and the experience
is transferred to the other institutions,
but never you receive the valuable inputs
Prof. Natarajan: from the people around you, so. Prof. Sundararajan: Especially in industry.
Prof. Natarajan: From industry and other…other faculty members also. Prof. Sundarajan: Yes [indistinct]
Because, because one of the…
like an oxygen for you know institutions is benchmarking.
Prof. Sundararajan: Yes. Prof. Natarajan: Industry follows it so very extensively.
Prof. Sundararajan: Yes, sir. Prof. Natarajan: That is your…there are other people
who are doing similar things,
and some of them are doing it much
better than you are doing.
And, if you want to succeed and
move forward and upward,
then you need to see what others are doing,
there’s an excellent definition of benchmarking,
and that is to find out what others are doing,
and then replicating what they are doing,
emulating them and then going forward
from what they have done.
And I’ve had a discussion with Ramadurai about this,
and he said, “For each part of the activities
of the institution, you can have benchmark institutions.”
But now of course, MIT recently had a study,
they wanted to evaluate their undergraduate programme.
They chose about 8 or 10 institutions,
who are doing a very good job,
and the…in this context, you might also know that
Olin University, near Boston
is considered to be the best undergraduate institution.
There is a ranking for undergraduate institutions.
And there are faculty members
with Ph.D. who come there,
they sacrifice their research work
and…in the sense that
they do not engage in research work,
but then engage in
many different ways of transferring the knowledge
and experiences from the existing faculty members and the
industry around them for…to the students.
I understand those…they do not take a large number of students,
and they are in great demand by
Prof. Natarajan: industry in the government. Prof. Sundararajan: Yes, sir.
Sir, from the time I joined…
one small thing, sir.
The industrial and sponsored research problem…projects,
and they have really increased quite a bit
over the last 20-25 years.
So what is your view on this, sir, the observations?
I would say that it is because of the
leaders who led the Institute,
and the…nationally,
as you…as you know…the initially…they said their
Prof. Natarajan: focus was on research: published or perish. Prof. Sundararajan: Yes, sir.
Prof. Sundararajan: Yes. Prof. Natarajan: And subsequently consult and publish or perish.
Prof. Sundararajan: Yes. Prof. Natarajan: Consulting basically means the industry oriented work.
Therefore, because of the
pressures on these institutions
to do different things,
obviously the institutions also started promoting
these activities and creating opportunities.
In this context one of the best things that happened
was the technology development missions that we had,
We had 8 missions or 9 missions of the [indistinct].
Therefore, the inter-IIT collaboration was also…
because in different IITs, there are
people who is doing similar things.
Prof. Sundararajan: Yeah. Prof. Natarajan: But unfortunately, though it was not continued beyond
the first…first stage of about 5 years or 6 years,
you still do not know why.
So the planning commission which was coordinating it,
but now the NITI Aayog has come,
and they are putting some opportunities
in front of the different IITs.
the inter-IIT cooperation is very important.
Sir, some of the major projects that have been done
in the Mechanical Department…the Institute…
in fact you have also…yourself coordinated many of them;
the major projects that have been done from Mechanical.
Yes, apart from the technical projects,
we were given the opportunity
Prof .Natarajan: to do…engage in curriculum development. Prof. Sundararajan: Curriculum development.
So again because of Dr. Ramchandran,
he has interest in
academic, educational activities.
So our Curriculum Development Centre was a very active centre.
Essentially you had to provide some inputs
to the faculty members of the surrounding institutions,
because there are so many things that need to be done.
Because, the situation between IITs
and the other institutions is rather alarming,
because many of them, they…
they don’t have the facilities nor the faculty members,
but at the same time, they do not have the
will and the…the focus on engineering education.
Prof. Sundararajan: Yeah. Prof. Natarajan: Sop that has been one of our hallmarks.
Some of the good things that happened
after I left IIT Madras,
were two or three things: one was the NPTEL.
Prof. Sundararajan: NPTEL. Prof. Natarajan: It actually…I…I sowed the seeds for NPTEL
behind the help of the Carnegie Mellon University
and also Professor Raj Reddy of CMU.
Now it has ultimately become swayam,
Prof. Sundararajan: Yeah. Prof. Natarajan: And you know, involving several things.
Prof. Sundararajan: Yeah. Prof. Natarajan: And the other thing that actually flowered
the…was this focus on R and D and interaction with industry,
and under Professor Ananth's leadership,
you have those research stars,
for example, it seemed to be quite active and bringing the
the industry and the other R and D institutions,
you know DRDO has a…has a complete floor of activities.
And, our alumnus Ramanujachari is heading it.
So this was again something which was
actually Ananth's achievement.
We had the land, and it was a curious circumstance
where we realized we had the land
Prof. Natarajan: given to us outside the Prof. Sundararajan: Outside.
IIT and we did some survey and
things like that and we found out and so,
it was possible to set it up.
There were some competitive interests also
that they wanted that that particular land
because land is so eagerly grabbed by everybody,
but we had a formal agreement with the state government.
So that is something else
which has become extremely significant in IIT.
Sir, one more programme we have now is GIAN,
I do not know if you have heard of this or not.
Prof. Natarajan: Yes, yes. Prof. Sundararajan: It is a Global Initiative for Academic Networking.
So every year we get about 100 faculty
or so, from different countries.
They come here and spend a week or 2 weeks and give
specific courses on very specific topics.
So that is also it has picked up quite well and…
A very good initiative,
I have been involved in similar activity
through something called IUCEE;
Indo Universal Collaboration for Engineering Education.
And I was one of the founding directors.
It is doing extremely well.
It also provides opportunities in many other ways;
guidance for Ph.D. for young faculty members,
and many other things.
That is something that is happening.
One of the concerns of the central government also
has been our lack of presence in
the international rankings, global rankings.
I have done some work on that
and I have been assisting in a very small manner
Indian Institute of Science,
through what is called ICAR:
Indian Committee for Academic Rankings.
There are many procedural matters in addition to
the existing core of their rankings
which is really the research performance.
The manner in which you present the information,
the manner in which you ask all the faculty members
to publish papers until the same…you know kind of a heading.
For example, if you say Department of Chemical Engineering,
and things like that it gets a…it…the…the computer moves it
into a different…the different place.
IIT Madras should be available in every paper,
only then will it be counted
along with the other papers for that particular institute.
Because some similar…simple thing,
but the more important things are
publishing in Scopus indexed or…
journals which have impact factor.
The young people in order to increase the number; quantify,
they…they publish in several different journals.
You know this is something which will act
against the Indian journals,
because they are not counted.
Now, the question is, it’s not the number of papers,
as you know, it is the quality;
How is the quality defined?
Either through the Scopus indexing,
there may be the…some difficulty,
but that’s a different thing.
And then journals having impact factors.
Therefore, the young faculty members…because…
because I go to different institutions now,
they should publish only in journals
which have a certain minimum amount of quality,
only then, because they want to show
some publications for their promotions,
they published…and again the conference proceedings,
that is a different type of activity.
Prof. Sundararajan: Yes, sir. Prof. Natarajan: They are not actually identified,
even though at the moment there are some indexes
which also take into consideration good conferences.
For example, IEEE conferences,
ASME conferences and so on,
but they are in a different compartment altogether.
Yes, sir. In fact for our promotion, we count only the Scopus indexed journals,
we don’t consider other journals at all.
Then the question is, then
why do you want to publish in other journals?
Prof. Sundararajan: Yeah. Prof. Natarajan: Becau…once you have published it,
then you cannot publish the same thing or parts of it
in Scopus indexed journals,
therefore it is a…it is a very simple analysis.
The…the question here, interesting question was suggested
as things for discussion CRD Narayanapuram.
See, I have gone through the origin and the
demise of the CRD.
Many of us felt that it was not in our mainstream activity.
For example, if you look at a faculty member,
what does he gain out of involvement in CRD activities?
At the moment the industry is doing it through CSR.
Right, because it will be counted,
it can be shown as desirable worthwhile activity.
CRD there were couple of problems: one,
a loan was taken, at one point of time,
the…the…the loan plus the interest was so great
that there was no way that the IIT was able to…
would be able to repay.
And therefore, an exemption was sought
when P. Chidambaram was the Finance Minister.
Again, the Director who actually originated that idea,
Professor P. V. Indiresan, he talked to quite a few people
to make sure that the interest
did not accumulate over the years,
and also to write off that particular loan
which was not a great amount of money.
But the activities…to some of us felt…
to what extent they enhance the
value of their activities for the IITs. This was one.
Secondly, there were a lot of people employed,
because there were lot of semi-skilled activities
which have to be done.
And these employees of these society, for instance,
wanted to be absorbed as the IIT employees.
That is a very serious…
Prof. Sundararajan: Yeah, Prof. Natarajan: it has very serious political implication.
So these two things in particular, they…
so it’s…we have to learn from past experience,
particularly bad experiences,
and these two are not compatible with what IIT had to do.
Prof. Natarajan: [Indistinct] Prof. Sundararajan: Sir, one more interesting question.
Prof. Sundararajan: I have some…one interesting… Prof. Natarajan: Yeah.
over the last 3-4 decades the JEE exam
also has been undergoing some changes,
and coaching…effect of coaching also has been very strong.
So, do you feel these have really influenced the
quality of the students we are getting,
into IIT at the undergraduate level?
In the initial stages when I was there,
we…tried to find out, or people tried to find out
what is the reas…what are the reasons for the success of the IIT.
In other words, all the graduates that they produce,
they are prized products which go as input
to several places; both in India and abroad
for teaching, for research and…for industry.
And people talk about our IITs not having
many contributions for India,
that’s absolutely wrong.
If you look at the major industries
and public sector organizations in India,
many of them are from the IIT system.
Even research organizations, sir;
Prof. Sundararajan: many of the research organizations of IIT Prof. Natarajan: Not only.
as a postgraduate…PG students from IIT have gone there.
Prof. Natarajan: No, no, no, no. Prof. Sundararajan: In ISRO, NAL.
Yeah, but the ISRO people who are part of the ISR…ISRO success story,
they are graduates, postgraduates from IIT.
Prof. Sundararajan: In the IIT. Prof. Natarajan: Therefore, we have a lot of contributions. In fact, BHU,
that it felt very sorry that an…it is an iconic institution,
that they were being criticized
for not contributing to the
national development in different areas.
And they have published a booklet
indicating their major alumni
who have indeed contributed to the
Indian industry, R and D.
It’s a…it’s a huge number of people.
Therefore, all IITs have done that.
That was one, that’s was…
so JEE was considered to be the principal reason
that we were able to pick up the
best talent within the country.
And of course, you can also criticize it,
because the talent that it picks up,
Prof. Natarajan: they are not interested in staying in India. Prof. Sundararajan: Staying.
We…we…we are we are criticized for brain drain.
There are two types of brain drain;
I have done a little bit of work under brain drain.
One is the external brain drain, when our people,
they study in India and then go abroad
for postgraduate work and
even subsequently they settle down there.
The other one is the internal brain drain,
where you train our students for technology,
but then they take up non-technology occupations and
put it…that is the internal brain drain.
Prof. Sundararajan: Internal. Prof. Natarajan: There were reasons for both.
Now ultimately, it is all related to the national culture.
Now, when Gandhiji was leading the independence movement,
there was a fervor, there is a desire
and a very keen desire to serve the country.
At the moment, you look at the corruption,
you look at the political scenario,
and then you wonder
why the young people are not motivated to…
even then there are people who do rural work,
but the…that spirit of service, the spirit of doing work
for other people, they soon become cynical.
This is the…basically the problem.
So JEE therefore now, with 23 IITs.
The catchment area has also increased.
Prof. Sundararajan: Increased. Prof. Natarajan: And as I said, when the IITs start; the new IITs,
they don’t have the type of facilities nor the faculty members.
It is a shame that we have a
faculty shortage position of all IITs of about 30 percent.
Why, if all…students are keen to join IITs, then they expect
good faculty members to not only teach them,
but all to also to inspire them,
why is it that that the such a large number of faculty?
Of course, one of the reasons given is that we want the best
and therefore, we wait for the best to come. Yes, that may be,
but then, just like you want to enhance the
catchment area of students for coming to IIT,
similarly you have to provide for teacher training institutions;
institutions which create good teachers. We need to do that
and I don’t think it has been done enough.
Prof. Sundararajan: Yes, sir. Prof. Natarajan: Because, you have several alternative professions now,
where business and money
are more important than anything else.
So, I…I think the demand for IIT seats
will continue to increase.
So, it is our responsibility to
provide for that fulfilment of the demand.
Yes, yes. Sir, from the time you joined, to once you were retired,
so what major changes did you observe in the campus and
the good ones, the bad ones?
No, I mean the bad one we have talked about,
Prof. Natarajan: because it…it doesn’t seem to… Prof. Sundararajan: Yes, sir.
interest the young faculty members and the young students.
The level of discipline…of course, I also get the information from
our IIT and other IIT in terms of faculty interactions,
the level of discipline; discipline is the word
which is not compatible with
the current day young students and faculty.
But, you…you…you…you don’t have to have discipline like in the military,
but unless people are organized,
people have a common purpose,
it is difficult to achieve success.
And, it is said that you have to get the faculty interests
and the institutional in…interests aligned.
They must both be interested in similar things
which are desirable things to do
that is not happening, there is a lot of…
whether it is because of…you know, the diversity
that is…exists now or whatever,
that…that they do not seem to be interested in similar things.
And if somebody is not able to cope up with many subjects,
no point in him being there and…
and that is why our Professor Indiresan's…
he gave them a way out,
by giving them a BA in Technology Arts,
but that did not work,
because many people said,
“We came to IIT for a B.Tech. degree.”
not for the [indistinct] degree kind of a thing
Yeah, but everybody cannot do everything.
So at some point of time you should
recognize your strengths and weaknesses
and that is a very mature decision one has to make.
And the parents have to chip in
and help them to do this,
and one example…set of examples people can give is
all the great…the Steve Jobs and Bill Gates and so on,
they were all college dropouts.
Prof. Sundararajan: Dropouts Prof. Natarajan: I mean there is a reason for that.
Because they felt that they did not gain anything
Prof. Natarajan: through that…going through the academic studies, Prof. Sundararajan: Formal education.
but they had other innate abilities,
Prof. Sundararajan: I mean Prof. Natarajan: innovative capacities
which they could pursue to perfection
and then make a name in that particular area.
So these are things, it is a mature aspects…
you cannot expect an 18 year old
Prof. Natarajan: student to recognize these things. Prof. Sundararajan: Yes, sir.
Sir, you have any advice to the faculty and students
for sustaining the excellence in IIT Madras?
I don’t believe that we have reached the peak
Prof. Natarajan: and we need to sustain Prof. Sundararajan: Yeah, we still have to go a long way.
I bel…yeah…I believe you have to go higher and higher and higher,
because one of the things that I have been involved
because of my presence in AICTE
and also my interest in engineering education is
that all institutions cannot become world class institutions.
The world class institution is a…actually a best in class institution
that is a better definition of that.
In order to do that, it’s not only important to work hard,
but also as they say in industry, you have to work smart.
Prof. Sundararajan: Okay. Prof. Natarajan: We have to choose, there is a decision making process
that has to be adopted
to choose the activities, first prioritize.
Prof. Natarajan: First prioritize Prof. Sundararajan: Yes, sir.
what is important for yourself and
for the institution, and then focus all your energy
Prof. Sundararajan: Yes. Prof. Natarajan: In order to excel in those things and it’s not easy.
Prof. Sundararajan: Yes, sir. Prof. Natarajan: For example, take a look at teaching.
So much of learning resources are available
both online, as well as in the libraries and so on…
the…it’s a constant struggle for the faculty member
to be one up on the students.
And therefore, the present
model of teaching-learning doesn’t work anymore.
It is a collaborative learning
Prof. Natarajan: that one has to participate in. Prof. Sundararajan: Right.
The teacher does not know everything
and the student is…doesn’t start from level zero.
So it is a cooperative mutually beneficial activity.
Prof. Sundararajan: Yes. Prof. Natarajan: So, the…these processes have to change.
There is a disruption occurring in education
in particular, and technical education
because technical education has technological factors
which need to be taught
and which need to be imbibed.
Therefore, as I say, there are a lot of opportunities,
but also a lot of challenges.
Prof. Sundararajan: Yes, sir. Prof. Natarajan: In the…the…the…the trick is in balancing these two
and ultimately, as they say,
if you have a tendency to speak the truth,
you don’t have to have a good memory.
Prof. Sundararajan: Yes, sir. Prof. Natarajan: Because, you will never go wrong in your discussion.
That is something else that is…
as…I would like to mention this:
We had a matured student
who succeeded as an entrepreneur,
and we asked him, “What did you miss learning in the IIT?”
He said, “You never taught us how to be bad.”
In the sense say…say falsehoods
and look…look for cutting corners and things like that.
Within the IIT it is an ideal situation, idealistic situation,
because there are specific modes of behaviour
and you have to do the…almost always the right thing;
whereas, you come out of the campus,
and all this one has to forget
Prof. Natarajan: in order to learn new things, bad things. Prof. Sundararajan: Yes, sir.
But…so we are doing a service
and a disservice at the same time.
We are showing them what would the right way to do things,
Prof. Natarajan: but at the same time that doesn’t seem to help him in life…. Prof. Sundararajan: Yes, sir.
many of them, not…not all of them.
Therefore, the world has to change,
we don’t have to change.
Prof. Sundararajan: Yes, sir. Prof. Natarajan: The world has to change
and somewhere along the line, we have to get together
Prof. Natarajan: and change the world. Prof. Sundararajan: Yes, sir, yes.
So, as long as you are in the IIT,
remember that you are in a good system,
Prof. Sundararajan: Yeah. Prof. Natarajan: And, there’s no reason to be sorry
Prof. Sundararajan: Yes sir. Prof. Natarajan: That you are not being taught the bad things.
Prof. Sundararajan: Yes, sir. Prof. Natarajan: Okay.
Yes, sir, thank you, sir!
Thank you very much for asking good questions
and motivating me to answer.
Prof. Sundararajan: Yes sir, Mr. Kannan Krishnamurthy: I edited your video long back
when I joined in 2005 in IIT Madras, and
2007 and 8, when I was making a documentary for
alumni…actually alumni affairs.
I edited you with…when you were inaugurating Sharavathi Hostel;
Prof. Natarajan: Did I do that? Mr. Krishnamurthy: a small video clip.
Oh I see, okay. Thank you, thank you very much.
Mr. Krishnamurthy: Thank you, sir. Prof. Natarajan: Nice interacting with you.
Mr. Krishnamurthy: Thank you so much.
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