Prof. S. Srinivasan in conversation with Prof. C.Vijayan and Ms Gayathri R.
We have with us today Professor S. Srinivasan,
Professor Subramanian Srinivasan,
who retired from the Physics Department a couple of years back.
I was a student here, at that time of the MSc programme
that was something like 35, 40 years back
and one thing which the students were very much interested is that,
there were several people by name Srinivasan
and we had other professors also by name Srinivasan
apart from staff members and others.
So, we used to call him S. Srinivasan, Professor S. Srinivasan.
Professor Srinivasan had a very successful career in our department,
Department of Physics, IIT Madras.
But... his personality is very interesting;
he has many other activities which are highly intellectual
which we will get into later.
So, we would like to start with
how... start with how Professor Srinivasan
came here and what was the situation at that time,
from there we will take over.
So, sir, I would like you to tell us
how you happened to come here.
Yes, yes, yes. And, how was -
what was the motivation and how you... Yes, I will tell you,
see I passed out of
Presidency College, Madras
in 1957 with a
B.Sc. honours degree,
that B.Sc. honours was a 3-year course after
... After school there used to be something called Intermediate in
Arts and Science.
Equivalent to the pre-degree. Equivalent to the pre-degree.
And that course is a 3-year course with only 1 attempt.
If you - either it is, it was binary, either you get the degree
or you get back to the ground level.
Something - it was - actually Indian education
was patterned on the London University.
We were all following that pattern
and in that, this particular course. And it became extinct
some 3 years after I
completed the course.
They switched over to the system of a school
and undergraduate degree and then postgraduate degree,
what is called our graduate degrees in US now;
that is - the - you get a Master’s degree.
So, I got a job and immediately joined it,
it was a job connected with Science of course,
but it was not a scientific job.
So, in the sense I was with the Government of India,
they...there was something called the
Ministry of Scientific Research and Cultural Affairs,
under which this IIT scheme came, that is what they were they saying.
I joined as a senior technical assistant there
and to the same post I came here with my own degree,
they ... first to the Physics Department Physics Department.
Department.
There the ladder would have been different,
within ... I was to become an assistant education officer, technical.
At that time I just decided; somebody said
the one person who was ... my senior,
that is, who was a very senior person
and he started this IIT actually.
He said there you will get some salary and all that,
here you will get
something of Lakshmi and also a lot of Saraswati that is what he said;
why don’t you join?
They are supposed to be mutually exclusive.
So, I joined here
and only when I had to register for Ph.D.,
they told me that my
degree is not sufficient,
you will have to
do 1 year, 1 more year I think.
So, they gave me what I - they felt was a concession - what
I felt was a burden,
in the sense I had to take all the examinations
that is the thing.
I took all the examinations. Of the -?
Yes, yes, here. MSc programme?
Yes, in IIT.
So, my MSc was technically from the IIT Madras
and in the first convocation
I got my MSc degree.
The senate passed a resolution saying that they are
kind enough to permit me to do this
and the kindness was from their side, but I did it.
Some of the things I had not - subjects
they had - even in that short span of a few years when
India was not advancing its science curriculum,
even then it was different.
So, here it was different,
the ... we never had a paper called Quantum Mechanics,
Classical Mechanics 1,
2, like this and all those things.
But it was not a burden because the
teaching load; there are practically no teaching
load only a teaching assistant load,
that’s the thing, they were doing.
We had to take tutorial classes,
only one person used to take the classes
when I joined, that is the ... Professor Koch, you may see.
He was the German professor
and his Physics was very good,
but we had difficulty in understanding his English.
But he felt the other way- that is, he had learnt
English from - by listening to BBC radio and so his accent,
everything, his expressions used to be correct,
have, ought to be correct;
of course, he was okay.
The one thing is when it comes to speaking,
he used to speak Germanized English - that is, in
German, you know, we must all have ...
you know, undergone this, some German language courses.
The verb comes always in this second place
and English is a flexible language,
it was not German - is not that flexible.
So, he used to correct our English
that is what I am telling.
All of us were subject to it including Professor
Ramasastry who was heading the department
he was fairly good at writing English,
but this is the thing.
So, we had to prepare tutorial questions.
For which class, sir?
That time what - which classes were you teaching, B.Tech. or - I guess
... everyone, there was only -
when I joined, M.Sc. was not there Right.
M.Sc. was started only later,
when you joined, M.Sc. came?
[Prof. C. S. Swamy, offscreen:]'62, '62. '62.
So, '62 was the first batch for ... M.Sc. And year - joining
year of joining - Eh? Year of joining the institute
Where? You were, you were
1960 end, sometime in the end I joined, ok.
I remember it was a Saturday,
Saturday was a working day.
So, you were doing tutorials for the B.Tech. students. B.Tech.
all people... everyone including the
Head of the Department was only doing tutorial classes.
Only, the German system was
one professor used to take the lecture.
There, system was like that
and all others including the people who
later became Nobel laureates in Germany,
they were called [inaudible] or something, they will-
even they had to attend the classes
and then help the students.
But...that was...implemented properly
that’s a very good system because we learnt a lot.
So, we - they didn’t - there was no -
he used to...he used to take only
4 hours per week, lectures, and - and
he used to demonstrate experiments.
Oh, he himself used to do that. Yes, yes.
and we got a very good set of demonstration experiments
which was designed and built by
his own Professor Robert Pohl,
P-O-H-L, Pohl.
He was a great teacher and when the...
one job which we had to do, all of us had to do...
some 3 or 4 of us were there,
Professor Ramasastry was the Head of the Department,
he was an assistant professor and Head of the Department.
Dr. Ramanamurthi and
Dr. Sivaramakrishnan- they were lecturers.
There was one [inaudible] Khadkikar
who stayed for some time and left.
He was also a lecturer,
he had an M.Tech. in...this one,
Technical Physics from Kharagpur IIT.
Then the other people who later rose to
great fame starting with
his professor, Professor Y. V. G. S. Murthi,
then Professor Bheema Shankara Shastry,
Professor B. S. V. Gopalam and I had joined,
that is, we were the 4.
We were the junior-most,
we were 20,
22, like that maximum ages
only Bheema Shankara Shastry was a little older because
he had served for some time in some college
for 2 or 3 years and then came here.
So, our job was to prepare a lot of numerical examples.
In the subjects that Professor Koch taught.
He would teach,
he would demonstrate the experiments,
the fundamentals should be strong.
The experiments should be - they are all classic,
really, it - it was a actually for - it was an
experience for us and even if we have to
pay for it, it was worth doing.
So, at that time all this...he brought some 2 or 3
other things came by this thing - ship.
So, our job was besides all those things
to open out all those things,
then take stock, assemble the apparatus,
do the experiments according to the instructions,
some of them would be only in German.
So...Professor Koch used to translate it for us,
but we also had...that is, we were kept...
engaged throughout. When we don’t have classes,
evening there used to be some German
classes were held by the one Dr. Klein,
he is - he's also there.
He was the Head of the Humanities Department
that is, the German counterpart of
Humanities Department.
He was...he had a Ph.D. in Sanskrit. Ok.
But he was teaching German,
he was [inaudible] in Sanskrit from Bonn University in his country.
And, for about 150-200 years
before we joined, that is, in 1800s,
the German Universities had Sanskrit Departments
and they were having Sanskrit research
at that time. Then he - he used to take
classes for elementary German,
that German for foreigners
deutsche sprachlehre für ausländer, that is, German language for foreigners.
So, we studied that and we also took examinations
with the Max Mueller Bhavan here
and got some diploma certificates.
So, we had some smattering of German.
So, those days - I mean, most of the
professors of IIT were Germans?
All. All. All the professors in the first batch
for the first batch, the lectures were taken by the Germans,
that was the...this is - this was called Technische
Hochschule that is Technical University in their terminology.
[Inaudible] ...system,
this was corresponding, it was a Technische Hochschule Madras;
it was this city was called Madras at that time
Madras...Indian like this.
There, the system - German system was followed.
So, some of the people who joined here
they were sent to training for [inaudible] to Germany,
they were, that was in the engineering departments.
One such one, metallurgy
professor - Professor Vasudevan and Parameshwaran,
some of those people they went to...straight away
recruited and then put by boat to Germany.
So, they came back later after
getting trained and they came back.
And, for the Science Departments they did not want
such a training and this gentleman was available,
they...that was the situation.
How many departments were there during
Yes, I will tell you all the departments I can list.
All the department which we have now-
Yes, yes the department is
this size one department would be there
that is all that is the space available for one department.
The staff would sit,
The Head would sit at one corner,
the other the - all the others, the
underlings would sit around
somewhere at a respectable distance,
a small curtain would separate.
Where was the main building, was it
This one?
Main building was at that time
you are - you know the Civil Engineering building. Yeah.
BSB BSB.
Building Sciences Block,
it was called. That BSB.
That was the only- Only
Only building, not- Building but
it has no 2 floors,
it had ground floor and 1st floor
that was all built.
So, the remaining was - And, and - and when
when it is raining of course,
it was under construction, also.
So, you will find
all those...iron rods bringing out
and people working there.
So, you have to go and wade your way and go like that.
So, the remaining campus was like
forest -? No, everything else - everything was only
actually they were all kept to lintel level
something would have come.
Some [inaudible] this thing
and there were 2 hostels.
One was completely ready
that was called the Cauvery hostel,
Then there was another one called Krishna hostel.
They - we were - we - the institute used to
start at 7:30 in the morning,
at 7 o’ clock there would be a - small jeep would
leave; 2 trips or 3 trips they would make. Ok.
And in that if you find your...definitely you
have to be present here at 7:30
and afterwards you can go and
have breakfast in the hostel.
So, they would deduct from our -this one- wages,
a monthly salary
I think ... food used to be very good.
Very healthy and all those things; then
lunch also we take there,
lunch also used to be good,
that went that went on for 2 to 3 years,
even you might have taken lunch here.
So, that was the life at that time.
So, you won’t starve and later there was a canteen
which was started in a - a sort of a temporary structure
on the - in between what is now the...what is it,
Materials Centre and the Civil Engineering
that is BSB. In between that place,
I think even now we can find the ruins
of that. That’s my feeling, ok,
that one. I - I can check.
Sir, how did people come to the campus from outside?
Come to the campus - they have to come to the gate.
Somehow gate.
In Adyar, after 6 o’ clock in the evening.
The nearest bus stand is the Adyar bus stand,
where near the grand snacks and those things, that one.
You have to walk to that.
And you can walk on the road without any... Safe.
No vehicle would come.
You can walk,
it was very - this one - silent nothing.
People would have use cycles or anything?
Cycles. Cycles.
Bicycles, the local those who live in Adyar,
they used to do it.
One...some people, that some people took
there is an apartments near what is now the cancer hospital;
at that place some very thoughtful person
by name Guntur Narasimha Rao.
Had built a small apartments
meant for 1 bedroom,
1 kitchen and - this thing - bath attached, everything,
probably anticipated IIT.
He might have anticipated only
cancer institute at that time.
So, he had built.
That was there at the time?
Cancer Institute? That was there.
So, some people used to...this one...rent that. And also,
the rent was not much in that area at that time.
I remember very well one ground floor
part of a bungalow, our floor - Professor Ramasastry
was living near there in [?],
he was paying only 110 rupees or so rent.
Of course,
the salary of an assistant professor was
700 rupees at that time,
that he would used to get some subsidy from
the institute as rent allowance.
So, 100 rupees, 110 like that,
only problem at that time was schooling of children
for them. That was the thing.
Those who were not married, problem was not there.
So, this is - life was like this.
And there were one or two
that is, people who had entered at the professor,
professor's level they had either a house in Chennai,
Madras at that time, by some chance
or they could put their children in schools,
their schools in Adyar;
they used to put their children in.
So, there were no college-going children
for a anyone at that time
to to my memory.
If it there there was no problem;
colleges were there and there was no problem.
So that was the personal life,
when one is in the campus when you get
some guests in order to
entertain them with a tea or something,
this canteen was serving the purpose.
It was okay;
it was monitored by
by the professor of English,
he was also the principal of...
he was retired as the principal of a college
Pachaiyappa's college principal Professor R. Krishnamurthy,
he was...he used to monitor the quality.
And...the advantage for the people who
open a restaurant here is they get free electricity.
Free, this thing, For encouraging
free water.
So, the rate could be would be less for this,
it was subsidized and the quality
used to be maintained for quite a long time.
There was no problem.
The photo which we are showing
maybe just taken along around-
-That time Yes. Actually,
activities as far as the activities were concerned,
the tennis court and other things came
only after the houses came.
Because unless the...there are people to People started living here.
stay here and...they came later.
Things were well planned of course.
Then the staff club, came along with the staff quarters
right. and announced...the main activity of
staff in the staff club used to be
this one, training for bridge and...others. Bridge
used to be very popular
[Inaudible] there were some people who were good at it;
in this photo itself, actually.
From the Chemistry Department
Dr. R. R. Madan was a good...
this one, chess player and also a...
this thing, bridge player.
He used to participate in the bridge
tournaments and all those things. So, Then-
those days it was only the B.Tech. tutorials.
Yes. B.Tech. Only the IITs which was going on in Academic [inaudible]
started with B.Tech. Yeah
And, till 1963 - '63, I think 63 only - 62 only they
started the M.Tech. programme.
And...the senior staff who joined the engineering
departments had...they were from Indian Institute of Science
or IIT Kharagpur, like that
some of them; Professor Varghese from Civil Engineering,
he came from Kharagpur.
Professor - I am talking about engineering departments -
Professor Narayan Murthy was the
professor of Mechanical Engineering,
he came from Indian Institute of Science.
And...some, like that some people came.
Chemical Engineering, Professor Venkateswarlu,
he came from Kharagpur IIT.
The next set, that is, the younger
people they needed lecturers and others also, isn't it?
Unfortunately there was no M.Tech. programme,
they were there only in the IIT - IIT Kharagpur.
And Kharagpur was the first IIT;
the other IITs were started almost simultaneously.
So, they had a problem of ...
Teachers. People with M.Tech. qualification. Ah, M.Tech. qualification.
So, most of the people who joined
at that time as lecturers
they did not have an M.Tech. degree,
they had teaching experience with their Bachelor’s degree.
So, they were all asked to join
this in the... M.Tech. classes. Oh Ok...but who -
Half time teaching and half time this thing.
All the people that is even the great figures
that you'll find in the...this thing - Civil Engineering,
Mechanical Engineering,
many people who are 75-plus and all that
they all did their...this thing.
There were some - there were, some other programme was there
that is, what was called the...this thing
after their BE for 3 years,
they will be provided with a stipend.
And..they would be...they, they have to
give out bond that they would become teachers,
they won’t go for any other job after this thing.
They were...that - that one...that programme
some people were there,
whereas all the M.Tech. classes
were full of only people
who were teaching in IIT;
almost everyone excepting a
few who are younger, that,
so, the gap would be that the
28-plus something would be 1, one half of the class.
So, they were sitting on both sides of the table actually. Both, both,
yes, they will - they learn here and teach somewhere
[inaudible] that was the situation at that time
because they wanted teachers.
These are the best method of...this thing,
it was planned well, actually.
In that one, ... I also
had the privilege of mounting the platform
as an assistant to one person who was Materials
Science teacher; he was Professor Ramasheshan.
So, they used to have,
that is, there used to be very busy professors at that time also,
they won’t - they won’t be able to come to the
classes - they would be out of station. something,
At that time they would send.
So, the person has to be prepared for that.
So, many...so, you have to take classes
but in one way it was a good experience in the sense
you would not - you would not learn
you would not read some books at all,
no...this thing.
And, when you have to tell somebody something
you should...be more, much more
sure than what you would do to when you tell to yourself.
So, we swallow some doubts and then go...that-
that you can’t do because you have to answer.
I think some of the tutorial problems which you
and your colleagues at that time prepared,
they are available even today
in the shopping centre and all that.
These people use them...old handwritten.
tutorials in Physics.
I don’t know this thing. So,
how we spent time in the Physics Department
some of us, is...is also there.
That is, we used to have our own seminars
that is, sometimes we used to prepare
question papers to assist our Professor Koch for some time.
And, afterwards that continued.
We used to prepare question papers then tutorial
sheets for the students and we should be prepared
to answer...that they - they used to -tutorial classes,
only 10 students would be there in the - in a class.
We have to take those 10 students,
teach in the sense, don’t go and lecture or anything.
You go there with...you give a problem sheet.
You have the solution manual, everything with you
and they can ask some questions.
They will be the [inaudible] Yes. They can ask questions
which are not there in this.
So, we should be prepared to answer.
And we were monitored
by none other than the then director of the institute,
Professor Sengupto.
And, you will be - he will be
we don’t know whether he would...he's there,
the...there used to be only one telephone for the entire
set of people, that is the landline,
this one receiver that used to be in a common place.
There would be a watchman and he will take the phone
and come and tell "there is a phone call for you"; you have to go there,
that - that was the...technology was
only that much at that time.
And it was very difficult to get many lines also.
So, he would be sitting in that
watchman’s chair and listening to the class which is going on.
So, such - some students used to ask, "See, in this - today’s lecture,
yesterday’s lecture, I didn’t follow this. Can you explain?"
So, we should be prepared for that.
That kind of teaching is nowadays called
the flipped class method,
where the lecture is given upfront
and the - in the class the teacher will only
help to work out the problems and all that, so...
We were working out problems.
I mean, teacher need not work out,
they can make them work out.
Make them work out. Oh, like that
So, we have to answer.
We have to answer patiently and they can ask
questions and they, they were told that
don’t spare the teacher you ask the questions.
Even then they were the best students.
Like that.
I don’t follow this and all, that used to watch,
he used to listen.
We don’t know when he is doing it,
how he is doing it and all that, he...this thing.
And it was good; we were on
tenterhooks - not out of fear,
but we learnt and we used to work out problems, one thing.
And then, some topic
Professor Ramasastry used to say you choose
you - you choose a topic and
you prepare, you give a seminar talk,
just to keep people engaged otherwise
they would gossip or read
this one, fiction and all those things. Like that...so.
But at that time people were not registered for Ph.D. also.
No, the programme was not that - they had
not framed any rules at that time
See, initial years it was only like that,
we did not know what is the future for us
excepting that every month we will get a
salary and even the promotion
was not based on your
qualifications or anything.
That is, they did not - that
formal this thing had not come,
it was an informal system.
So, we did not know because
actually what were we...we were
thinking is that we would get our wages,
we can live - this one - in a secure way.
And, outside we can’t get this much,
any job means
transfer at any... it is not like that;
we did not think about all those things.
I did not even look at any
advertisements from elsewhere and all those things,
it was like that...we were peaceful.
Within a few years people would have started
registering for Ph.D. Yes.
Doing these things. Those things, rules were framed
And, then things came
that in the first phase it was only a foundation.
...good teaching.
That is, the teacher should Know the subject because,
there actually the condition of the universities
teaching and learning,
it was not very good even at that time.
The students may be good,
but that was not very good
but - some individual students were good,
they were - they did not depend on the...this one - teaching;
whether it was Central College Bangalore,
where he was doing or Madras Christian College,
Presidency College or any of those things.
The students on their own they would study,
they did not depend on the...the teachers like that.
So, when you... decided to register for Ph.D.,
how was it - the support from your family
and...because the salary won’t be the same right?
No, But it is a part of
the... I think you were on the job
and then doing Ph.D., right?
Oh. Part of- With the salary
Yes, yes yes yes
you don’t have to... It's an [Inaudible] registration.
I'll tell you - see, there are
every - even today in many places,
I will tell you the situation before our time.
So, many, very few people would go for research.
The...the thing is when they have spare time,
they used to take - if it is a Mathematics teacher in a college,
he used to take private tuitions and
make much more money.
Getting a Ph.D. did not mean anything for them right.
But they would know... know the subject,
they would have interest, everything
it's something like
[inaudible] doubt...who own the interest they used to work
problems and all that...some people are publishing also.
That is, working in...portress Ramanujam published his papers.
He did not have any idea of - what to do with
his knowledge, everything that,
...it was like that, society was like that.
There may not be too many people with Ph.D. degrees. Yes.
That doctor would Doctor yes, yes, normally
when somebody gets a doctor they have to say
...he has got a ... doctor's degree in the Mathematics or something;
what use is it?
He can’t treat a patient.
That was the society at that time,
the science this thing came only later.
Actually, for that, one has to
thank Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru for inculcating that
this one, scientific temper and
science education and all those things.
In the highest level
and many others...very - people you
professor... you went to India Institute of Sciences,
isn’t it? IISC for your Ph.D., right?
So, because it happened to be in Bangalore -
in some other places people wouldn’t...
It - it was different in Northern India,
Allahabad some centres were there,
Calcutta. Calcutta Calcutta, everything it was there,
that - they were a bit, little bit
a few years in advance, ahead of the other places.
So, in our department Professor Ramasastry
used to be the guide for many of the people.
Yes, the thing is at that time...
but...the...there were not - Professor Ramana Murthy.
Actually, I was to...only
I was associated only with ... Ramana Murthy
that is thing, Ramana Murthy,
that is, Professor Ramasha - Professor Ramana Murthy
got his Ph.D. from Allahabad University with ...
one of Satyendra Nath Bose’s students that...
it is S. N. Bose’s students.
Then, actually I ... this one
I went over only to Professor Ramana Murthy.
And, that is how it became... it got into X-ray diffraction. Ok.
So, something we had to do.
Professor Ramasastri had some 3 or 4 people
including one person who was in the...
what was that - control systems. Oh.
Automatic controls.
Oh, he guided in that area also...?
Did he guide Ph.D. in that? No, no,
he actually registered for a Ph.D.
but the thing is how that was a totally different area.
So he went to Bangalore.
one I. S. N. Murthy - I. Surya Narayan Murthy,
he became a professor of Electrical Engineering there.
And he is no more now,
but he ... he came for selecting
IIT Electrical Engineering professors.
So, so, we had Professor Ramasastri and
Professor Ramana Murthy as guides. Ramana Murthy, Shivaramakrishnan
Oh Sivaramakrishnan, these three people were guides -that day. These three people were eligible
to guide and ... Ramana Murthy...
could not take - by that because
by that time, others had joined,
1962, onwards others had joined.
'62 there was a large recruitment
in the institute because
1959 was the first batch,
they passed out in '64,
1960 was the second batch.
When I joined it was a small thing
and suddenly then 1961 was the first
Joint Entrance Examination.
First Joint Entrance Examination,
the very first batch that entered through
the all-India entrance examination was from 1961.
At that time also we have some interesting experience,
we did not know what it was, we heard about it.
About what? About the entrance examination.
We have not heard about IIT Kharagpur
when we were students.
...so ... this joint entrance examination one
thing, with that only they were talking about it
and one day we were given some question paper,
JEE paper and asked to work out because,
it was for the school standard so.
Who set the paper?
Some, who... Set actually,
it was a joint Kharagpur IIT. IIT
And from the other IITs at that
time when Madras IIT -
Madras was the 3rd IIT -
Bombay IIT had come.
So, 3 IITs were there,
1961, Kanpur had come and also Delhi.
There were 5 IITs and 5 people were setting the paper
Professor Ramasastri should have gone.
But Professor Koch wanted to set the paper,
he [inaudible] this thing.
So, he went for a- He has [inaudible]
that paper which had come.
So, the English they might have
done; all of them joined together thing
and there were only about
7 - 600 or 700 scripts
that came from this southern region
for the entrance examination. 600
Or 700 for all these Southern states together.
That was all.
So, we were given the question paper,
we didn’t know that Joint Entrance Examination had taken place.
This paper we tried to - then when we found
this is the paper that people have answered,
school students have answered.
So, you work it out.
We didn’t know what purpose it was.
So, fortunately because we had
workload problems in the
from the - say, there you - books were in our days
when we were students
books were also very few.
And, only you can prepare some 5, 50,
60 problems and feel that you have learnt Physics.
So, this books from America had come,
US books had come,
there is one called Sears and Zemansky
that was a university Physics -
And, then this - they saw a very famous Resnick and
Halliday book that came,
they were all American publications
using foot-pound-second systems: fps systems.
So... that we worked the problems from that
and...in the - in the first edition of
Resnick and Halliday,
So, many answers were wrong
that is the thing...some thing.
So, we were feeling that we have committed a mistake,
those problems we used to check
and again and again and satisfy that we were right.
So, we thought they are all printing mistakes, like that.
So, we had some training.
So, all of us scored more than 80 percent.
the teachers are examined first.
So ... Ramasastri was very happy.
So, then he said this is the reason why I have asked you all to our problems.
It was correct because -
Yeah, yeah, I think that would have given you a
right kind of training because
you were involved in setting the JEE paper several times
during your career. So... but JEE papers also went through
so many modifications.
So, that - that paper was very
easy compared to...anyone taking the examination now
would score 100 percent in those paper I think.
So, we...but that was novel at that time.
So, then they said they wanted
4 people to value the papers,
then only the system of valuation also we came to know
they had prepared model answers.
They said you can work out,
by an alternate method you will have to do,
the - the - fee that we - we used to get per script is 1 rupee
at that time.
So, we used to handed over
1 bundle of 20 answer scripts,
we have to sit in a room, all in a room,
we won’t be - we won’t have to go out,
we will be served a coffee,
tea like all those things that would come out periodically.
So, and... to some 3 hours
we used...we have to work and
more than that you should not work,
mental fatigue would come.
So, 3, 4 days we finished this thing,
each person valued about 140,
150 scripts this thing and that was the first experience
of how an examination is set up and all that.
otherwise, the...in other places it will be...
whether it is a Physics paper or a
Mathematics exam paper, every thing,
it was all memory-based, you can...this one -
But when somebody hears this they will have a confusion because
today it is only machine valuation.
JEE is completely
what we call multiple choice kind of short questions and all that.
Yes. So, this kind of valuation is not being done now.
Yes, yes, that is true The JEE system's
But changed very much
Even...what about fast food?
It's a question of necessity, that is your - So,
there used to be problems and - Yes.
Yeah, when I joined the... Yes, we have to work
I was valuing the ... And the method of working the...
but we can practice it
here also during a course
you give an assignment
and call the person who has taken the assignment
to come and work it out for others,
that is what we were doing;
though we were a given a
glorious title as a teacher,
we were doing it, only that, that.
So, here when we joined as ...
what are called senior technical assistant only,
we were told we were senior to none.
But assistant to all. All.
That is department. That is the technicality of the [inaudible].
That is the - the technical is common.
So, you are this thing
you should be prepared to do any work.
So that the team moves on.
But the academic life would have
changed when you started Ph.D. right.
No, that...even You would have started your own experiments
That is, changes also, that is
many changes take place,
they come to know of them only
by after some time and when you look
back how things were there, that is the thing.
So the ... as it happens When you
because initially this - it looks like the career was
fully engaged for question-paper-making and
correction and things like that. Yes.
So, when you started your experiments
for research, that would have - No, no,
we have to...we have to do; that is the reason
Why it takes more time for - Ah, right, right, right. - when you do Ph.D.
And, another problem is that is
my personal view now is
now, when you do something do it full-time,
never half-half.
It is, that is half plus half doesn’t add to 1,
when you do it half-time, that is ...
the time may be linked with the space,
but not in the non-realistic world
that is - that is what happens right
So, it took time.
and yes - and another Yeah
thing is when you are working with one of your
senior colleagues as your supervisor,
there are some constraints;
depends on how things go.
Either you move very fast -
faster than you normally can
if ... it's all in phase.
If it is - if there is a
phase difference, it is a problem - some...
it happens, like in service anywhere.
Ultimately, every service is servitude
at any level everywhere, that thing, any country also.
So, we can’t is it...it takes time and this thing.
But the thing is what now
you are all full-time students, isn’t it?
Full time is the best actually,
you finish and go and
when you are doing as much as possible,
you should learn
because you never get an opportunity
anywhere else that is IITs or in a different situation
from other research laboratories;
if it - if you join the Tata Institute of
Fundamental Research or full-time this thing - that is,
practically no teaching for the staff there,
professors that they give lectures,
but only seminar type of lectures.
Bhabha Atomic Research Centre
in the training school, it is something military training.
So, many subjects they are thrust and you are ranked and
your career depends on
what rank you get in the school
but some people have been successful - because of that
there have been some failures like this and.
But here, when you are -
you are all half-time teaching assistants, isn’t it? Yes.
That is, there you take the teaching part also
as an opportunity to learn things which you will never
be able to do anywhere else.
Here you have very good stuff
to which you can deliver,
your customers or capable that is
they will be able to appreciate it
and all those things,
you will do it well.
And... it will also give you confidence.
Self-confidence in teaching is very important,
it should not be some sort of an overconfidence,
superciliousness such things should not be there,
but it should be well honed-up talent.
That you should get, that is. So
after getting your Ph.D. you might
started teaching in M.Sc.
M.Sc. we can teach even without a...
this thing, Ph.D. So what were
the topics you were teaching? Topics is...
yes, topics also came
it was like this - initially
whenever there was some the ...
I have taught different subjects
in - I have taught some for M.Sc. Chemistry,
there was some Physics.
I was teaching those courses,
there were some students in the
earlier batches,
for M.Sc. Mathematics also they had Physics.
At that - at one time;
those courses also I have taught.
Of course, they are at a slightly
different level from for that of M.Sc. Physics,
but good enough for
this thing and they had taken for B.Tech.,
some, we have to design some courses.
as per elective courses and then
take those courses and also teach them.
Among the courses that
I designed and ... also took, were
Quantum Mechanics for engineers
that course was -
for the Electrical That is still going on -
that course is still an elective for B.Tech.
Electrical - Electrical - for Electrical Engineering B.Tech. students
it was there and it was very successful
because the applications that - that we did
all happened to be in the semiconductor physics
and lasers and such things only,
which was also new in the - '60s and '70s.
1970s. Yeah, yeah.
Actually, I designed that course at that time.
So, the quantum mech - and
till then of the quantum mechanics that we used to learn
used to be only perturbation method
and such things only,
nothing of the applications into the, this one:
solid state and
Experimental side.
For example,
to know that when an - a - a charged particle
its behaviour depends on the environment in which it is in
a free electron is this, not free
in this - this sense when it is inside some other medium.
So, many things happen,
how it happens like that,
then courses... that one.
There is one course on X-rays...structure analysis - X-rays. No, that
was for our own
M.Sc. students, that is the thing and also for Ph.D. students
and Chemistry also taught.
There was another course
which we had to do at the request of the
Metallurgy and Mechanical Engineering
Departments: reactor physics.
That course was...I was asked to
take that paper of Professor Sobhanadri.
He said you design a course like
that. In the first year
there were only 2 students
who had opted for that course
because he - he said that you take it in your room.
What I did was I taught that,
and fortunately we have a reactor in Kalpakkam.
I took them to the research reactor
that is the one that is used
for research. There are two,
this one - units there;
one for power generation.
The other is for this one-
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam, off-screen]Sir, which year was this?
[Mr. Sathasivam] Which year was this?
It was in 1982 or so,
1982. [Mr. Sathasivam] Can I ask the question about the ?? '60s - joined
[Mr. Sathasivam] There were supposed to be classes being held in AC
Tech College because the campus -
Oh, that one - when I joined. [Mr. Sathasivam] Did you have that experience?
No, no. When I joined, the classes
were...had begun here. [Mr. Sathasivam] In '60 itself?
Here ... '60, when I joined - '60 itself, it was there,
only in '59 they had classes in the AC College. Yes.
And, they used the
workshop of the Guindy Engineering
College in the very first year
because the things had not arrived.
When I came, the first
thing they built - first this thing they built - was the workshop
worksho - this, all those...that was the - at
that time it was the first - the largest non-production workshop
non-production, the... Yeah
[Mr. Sathasivam] ... the Physics lab - Not in the technical sense
[Mr. Sathasivam] Was there a Physics lab in the early days or -
... No, no; we had a Physics lab - it is
For the B.Techs. It is easy to set up
because the Physics that we were having for the
B.Tech. students,
we were sufficient - that is, we could have
we could purchase equipment from the city, Madras city;
no problem at all. I see
We had new Michelson interferometer,
everything we purchased and we
yes, the Physics lab and many experiments we could -
this one - we built the apparatus itself from here.
Glass blowing section was there and so,
we had barometers, everything we did here.
All those things we did.
We were engaged in all those things.
and teaching was only part;
we were actually learning and working problems, that’s all.
And sitting in the, that process class did not
teach us any great Physics - in the sense,
that Physics we knew.
And we knew it also in the right way, all of us.
In fact, Professor Murthy,
S. B. s. Shastry and Gopalam they did a
course on applied physics in Andhra University
where they had to do so much of Engineering also.
So, they were well equipped actually.
So, suddenly after 19 - the B.Tech. teaching,
they had...the student, the...Professor Sengupto
insisted on all the 5 years they will have
Physics - B.Tech. students.
Core courses, directive cames only later.
In his period,
all these students have to take Physics for 5 years.
Mathematics for 5 years. Yes.
All those things.
So, the - the Mathematics
level of the B.Techs graduates
was quite high in those days
and some of them became mathematicians later.
Out of the interest.
That reminds me
the Dr. Sudarshan of Kottayam
Mahatma Gandhi University was your student... No, no,
he was a Srinivasan’s classmate actually
No, no, I am talking of a younger person
who worked in X-rays
His name is Sudarshan. Oh, oh, that is my - That - that's what I've been -
Professor Sudarshan Kumar. Ha Yeah yeah yeah
Yeah, yeah, Sudarshan Kumar. He did in '90s, actually.
He did Ph.D. with you, right? With me
I remember that. Yeah.
I met him several times. He is doing very well Yeah, he is doing very well.
I met him when he was a director of the... I went to his
house; I stayed for sometime. Department.
Oh I see, ok.
This is in Mahatma Gandhi University, Kottayam. University is the.
Kottayam; he's the Head of the Department.
Now knowing there is some gain and
something he would have got, He was a - they have
they have the school of science, he was Director of that.
He was the Director.
I have gone - visited there a couple of times.
He did a postdoctoral at Ohio State University
so... So, he was your - your own Ph.D. student.
Then he did post Ph.D. in IASC
in molecular biophysics and then went to
Ohio State University for ... Columbus
where my son studied actually.
So, he did - did well.
And then came back,
he - he has guided a number of students.
And he is a flourishing - my, one of my students.
Professor Sudarshan Kumar - see, Sudarshan Kumar,
he is the first university entrant from his family.
Oh. In his surroundings
First generation learner we call. First generation you can say and
his father doesn’t know any English,
only Malayalam he knows.
I went to his house also,
he was in - this thing
he was - some Kollam isn't it?
So, then Dr. Babu Varghese.
Yes
I don’t know whether you have heard of him,
have you - no, you've not heard - of course he's retired now.
He was my first He is in - he was in SAIF - working in SAIF.
Our X-ray.
He was a central XRD,
that one - he was in charge of it,
he was a scientist.
He is also very interesting personality.
You - you know he Actually
when he joined.
Of course, students also will tell,
students are also of different kinds; you learn to
manage them, human management also is necessary.
Otherwise, you are a failure,
the student is a failure, the system is a failure.
Nowadays it is called the management of human resources.
It was ... he was allotted to me
saying that he may be a problem if
he is allotted to somebody else,
there was a choice for another person.
So, there was a - what is the
something - something doesn’t commute or something what - with.
One scientist by name Gell-Mann.
He was - Quark
Quark - Quark -
He had a ...
He wanted to get admission in one university,
otherwise he may - did not want to live at all.
So, the choice was this,
then he said that - he got.
And, Harvard I think he got in Harvard or
something I don’t remember many this thing;
Feynman only went to MIT, but this thing.
So, he either suicide or this thing - he got.
So, I could not and choose
which one first I have to choose
was a problem for me.
And, then because these two things don’t commute
The decision in case one thing you make a mathematical operation.
One first, the other next - the result
should be the same if it commutes.
[inaudible] suicide you can’t do it.
Suicide you can do only last, not first.
Like that - like that - this.
[Mr. Sathasivam] but you're known for your personal skills.
[Mr. Sathasivam] For your - you said your student was selected for you.
Because student - student - [inaudible].
Suicide was not the problem,
he was eccentric enough.
Yeah. That was the thing.
But he had a very successful career- He is a very bright person;
his interests were wide.
First he told me sir I am solve - trying
to solve Fermat’s last theorem.
Right, for 1 year please don’t disturb me.
When it is a highly - though much of price is there
when given at the price,
I will share the proceeds - half with you, 50 percent I will get.
So, that was the thing.
So, I thought I didn’t know what to do
because somebody ... I was ...
at that time I had read some other joke,
two lunatics where they - they
escaped from a mental asylum,
they were sitting in a park opposite to that and were talking.
See, I want to buy that house,
they thought it is a house and all that thing -
they were mentally -
The other man said: you can’t, I am not going to sell it to you.
Something like that.
Yeah, this kind of research would have been of that order
... something. He was In that time.
He was a little bit and -
So, I let him and the result
he has been telling everybody that
he’s solving Fermat’s Theorem, last theorem.
So, in the hostel he was called Fermat.
So, then he had to take the courses,
but he did something,
but very good, extremely bright person,
high originality - this thing,
but even today he is a little bit crazy
like that. He is - [Mr. Sathasivam] So,
does it mean that that was both both experimental and
theoretical work like that... Yes
he had to do - he had to do. Actually
I can’t guide him in. Fermat Theoretical work.
He didn’t do that for Ph.D. My knowledge is zero
almost 0 in the sense the thing,
but he - he did this thing,
he solved a crystal structures, everything he did.
He would write programs
by looking at the book
one by one he used to see - it's something like
looking at a dictionary and writing an article
in a foreign language like that -
that originality he had [inaudible]. He was very
successful, his career as -
the manager XR - X-ray. X-ray,
Central X-ray facility in the institute. he became this thing.
And, he used to work in fits and starts,
you will have to admit it, what to say,
but he was good.
We got on very well,
he didn’t quarrel with me or do anything -
I didn’t - because I know he is good.
And he was...
So, people used to ask me how are you managing with him
and they thought that ... he was my first student,
both are, that’s all gone - like that.
Then one or two advised me
why did you take him, you should have
this thing - he was not - he is good, this thing.
So, the first paper came out in Acta Crystallographica
the other some 2 or 3, 4.
So, in the 4th year
he finished everything
then I said you can start writing your the-
What is there to write,
these are the structures,
you just say this is
the result, you give the tables that’s all.
What is there to write?
Then ... that is, he could talk like that,
he did not mean anything,
he could talk like that.
He used to talk very frankly.
Very frankly. Very frankly.
So, brutally frankly that you may get
embarrassed sometimes, something.
So, he was to get married also,
he married ... oh Loyola College professor’s daughter
a Mathematics professor’s daughter.
They ... he asked me that the professor asked me
will he get his degree,
he - he seems to be ... he - and he is talking
I don’t - that is - he is not talking now.
Properly - he is a very normal person.
He will get his degree, he has done very good work, this thing
but what I did was
I could gather - I would write,
but ... the ... that thing one material is
there even the papers only is -
Will be edited into - Not that he is -
good at English, everything.
He is a peculiar type of person that is the thing,
but the thesis came out well - both the reports
were very good, everything is in,
and the marriage took place.
He has a son and a daughter,
daughter is married and she is in US with her husband.
The son is doing Ph.D. in Tata
Institute of Fundamental Research. He was a
student of our M.Sc. one ... Yes, yes [inaudible]
This thing, he is good, Unni - that is his name ... I think.
This man is also very good
and here, his mind you - Professor Manoharan,
you know Professor P. T. Manoharan.
P. T. Manoharan was waiting
for him to submit his thesis,
when we were going for binding it
he - he got down from his car.
So, it is his thesis that is in.
Then, 1 week later,
he advertised for scientific offices.
So his job was ready.
Job was ready. When he -
He wanted a person
to look after the X-ray diffraction,
even ... it has a diffractometer,
right from the collection of data to solution
which are needed for Chemistry people
[inaudible] he was waiting for him.
So, the job was waiting.
How was setting up the XRD department?
Setting up the XRD.
No, yes they this is a single crystal diffractometer
which is there in the special instruments laboratory,
in the - when you go there opposite the
electron micro -- that experiment - that -when.
There is a single crystal diffractometer,
I think one lady from the
Chemistry Department is -
Is - Metallurgy Department.
Metallurgy Department - not Metallurgy I think,
she is from Chemistry, must be,
this Metallurgy this thing will be powder -
Oh, that’s a different X-ray.
Dr. Keshavan Nair was. Yes, Keshavan Nair was
in charge of it. in charge of it.
So, he stayed here,
unfortunately his - this one - ambition was
not fulfilled in the institute.
He was very good,
...he would have been a very good guide,
research guide - because he has lot of originality,
he would have solved some good problems for students.
He could not get a faculty position,
it - it was a - something sometimes in a prosperous institute
with very broad-minded people sometimes
things don’t work for some people.
It happened at - that was - in one
sense - I knew one Director - one of the,
I was the secretary of the faculty association.
The 1980s and '90s also,
I was the - I was the secretary of the faculty association
on pay commission on two pay commissions
came in that period.
So, we had to negotiate and all those things.
I used to be called by the -
for the- this thing - in that
sense I could know the two Directors,
one Professor Srinath
and other was Professor R. Natarajan,
he was a ... Mechanical Engineering man.
So, I met Natarajan.
[Inaudible] at that time, he is - one Professor
S. P. Venkateshan you know? Have you heard
Mechanical - Yes, Mechanical Engineering.
He was the Head of the special instruments laboratory.
So, in spite of all those things somehow
our department and Physics Department,
they are somehow not
willing to give him - that is the ... thing.
This interview with Professor Srinivasan
is very different from the other interviews which we had here,
in the sense I wanted to bring out some
other interesting aspects of your personality.
Oh, thank you. Like your -
now for Sanskrit and - I'll keep quiet, I'll keep quiet ... but it was
you know we heard that you have
translated a book on
General Theory of Relativity by Lifshitz and Landau,
No, Landau and Rumer. Landau and Rumer.
into Sanskrit language. Into Sanskrit.
Both are difficult - general theory of relativity is the
most difficult theorem if it is- No, no, it was a very
popular book; it was not a - I didn’t
do the Science part at all.
No, no, that’s okay,
but my point is that is the
most difficult thing in Science and
Sanskrit is supposed to be the most difficult language.
I also wrote a - So how did you manage to - I published
a book on - there is a
lyric which describes only
this thing, seasons and such thing that is a -
Muthusamy Meghadūtam,
Meghadūtam. Meghadūtam, that is a cloud -
somebody sends a cloud as a messenger.
He's talking about Kalidasa's ...
Kalidasa's Book
That I wrote in prose form,
treating it as a travelogue, that is,
it starts from this thing - a place in - presently in Maharashtra
Ramtek, where, say Rama is - is said to have
spent some time, - in during his exile.
And, from there yaksha goes and
then goes to the Himalayas like that,
in that process he traverses different places.
The importance of those places
and all those things of those days
that - I - it was published actually.
Then I took some after my retirement,
I took some interest in
Sanskrit and during this service here
for the IIT library,
I have translated scientific papers from German into English.
Those days in - many papers were
used to be in German and German
somebody needed to translate it to ... German into English
I used to...
Research scholars needed that kind of service. At that time.
At the request, the central library was doing that service;
I have done something.
Only thing is after, for last 20 years
I totally lost touch with that language
with the result I have to start at 0,
that is that - unless you are in touch with a language
you just forget about it, forget it.
But your talents range from
relativity and Sanskrit to teaching undergraduate
students about quantum physics
and that is your latest contribution. That is because of -
I happened to be in this place by an accident. Yeah.
That’s all. Nothing else.
But ... in a career if you
look at, when you get your position
and all those things, if you look back
and all those things,
you may feel that you have been
deprived of things at the right
time and all those thing -
that happens to everybody.
Actually ... as one of my professor - my colleague
late Gopalam used to say, see,
"I am," about himself "I am rotting as a lecturer;
when I go and tell the deputy director" -
the ... Professor Sampath there was a deputy director by (name of)
Professor Sampath of Electrical Engineering,
he also became - later, he became director
IIT Kanpur like that -
he told him, "See, I am also rotting."
He said "Sir, you are rotting as
Deputy Director, I am -"
There is a difference between rotting as deputy director and as a professor Like that.
But anyway, he felt he did not get his due.
So, he was [inaudible]
not feeling [inaudible] rotting, that is this thing;
So, but anyway life is like that. So
what is your vision about this book on quantum physics?
Whom it will benefit? Right now
thanks to the encouragement, I wrote - I used to
spend some 4 or 5 months every
2 years with my son’s family in US.
He is there since ... last 17 years or so,
he is there. After -
So, when he was in Virginia,
he was - till 3 years ago he was in Virginia,
now he is in Texas.
So, that those places you have -
the county libraries are very good.
We can, this thing - I didn’t know anything about
how to spend time I did not know,
you can’t go out and all that
in US unless you are very familiar
with things and all those.
So, I thought I might read something,
even that Meghadūtam I did
only when I was there.
Then, the, why not do something in Physics because
I found a number of Physics books
which I can’t get even in the IIT library,
general books like that.
So, I started writing something, that is
how quantum physics developed
like any river which starts as a pond,
the Planck’s theory also was a,
for a specific problem it was a solution.
Planck himself said it was curved fitting
that’s what he himself very hesitatingly
hesitantly he presented it and it remained like that.
The person who digged it up and
made it ... great was Einstein,
when he solved the photoelectricity problem.
So, you will have to - would have had to
read up lot of non-technical books to get this Yes.
historical perspectives Yes, yes but generally, I
used to read almost 1
fiction every week.
In - in the service when I was here
any new book which comes ... R. K. Narayan’s
The Guide came only when I was in
IIT in the - in the earlier years,
made it [inaudible],
then all - the all the books of R. K. Narayan
English teacher.
So and then, there his foreign
US experience, something he had written so
many things I read them and also
Somerset Maugham,
there was an author of the
20th century considered to be the greatest
living author when he lived,
his stories also;
all those things I used to read
right and left something are that
just - just like that.
But, when we read the available books and quantum
mechanics and all that you don’t get those [inaudible] these
No, actually, yes, yes, yes, episodes which you have mentioned in that.
The quantum mechanics ...
when I read I thought it is all quantum jumps, everything was,
suddenly somebody that is
what is it, our bond approximation,
scattering like that.
The books used to present things as topics,
how is it that they get into their problems
because it can’t be all on a -
The human angle. Yes
So, then Social
one - one - why did it develop only in certain places,
all those things.
When I ... went through
I found that there is a link.
See, only when an atmosphere or an
environment is important for you
to do research in a particular area,
that’s what I felt.
I had one experience - somebody said
that this thermoelectric cooling is there - thermo - some compounds Yeah.
are used for thermoelectric cooling,
bismuth telluride and intermetallic compound.
At that, when I saw that I tried it,
I grew a bismuth telluride sample,
heated it at one end and
thought that I would get ice at the other end
or at least very poorly...
But it was very hot.
So, nothing happened; it was a good conductor also,
almost a good conductor.
So, I - I didn’t believe the experimental
results and all those thing,
I dropped it.
So, I thought -
It's too hot you have to drop it.
I dropped it and dropped the topic also.
So, what is the present status of the book?
What is the present status of the book? Yes
Yes, it will come out. When will it come out?
because I am doing the correction of the draft.
Now, I - what I find is
if you want, first you have to understand
one important thing about the refrigerator,
it maintains a difference in temperature unless
you keep the hot side
at the constant room temperature
you won’t get the cold pot cooler
it's an elementary thing.
I did not know, we knew only
the thermal - what is thermodynamic cycle for the - this thing.
But we did not know the -
I - at least I did not know
this thing, that is why I had to burn my finger.
Literally. Burning finger on research.
Only a few days ago something when I was writing it,
I remembered that.
So, I added a sentence
you have to ... the hottest element should be
maintained at the ambient temperature.
That is a connection with the book,
I was wondering why you are talking about
when you are talking the book. you were...
Yes ...talking about that.
Ambient temperature - I have written it.
Because ... the other person -
there may be others who may burn their fingers.
No, but it is necessary
that is, certain things we learn only when we
this thing - and better, this thing - what you have felt,
you should have, should have learnt - this thing.
The person who suggested it to me also
did not know that there is something
immediately what he said was
you check up whether it is a pure sample, like that only,
you don’t think about it - this thing
[Mr. Sathasivam] Sir, can you tell us about the
about the experimental facilities that have
come up in the department? Department,
actually, it was almost nothing when I joined.
Excepting the teaching the demonstration experiments -
they could be converted into good experiments also -
but
that was nothing.
When once the question of research came,
that is formal research came
people took up ... what
what are the measuring instruments that we have to buy;
depends on what you are going to measure.
The first - one of the things that was first bought was
a spectrophotometer -
a Hewlett Packard spectrophotometer -
which was installed when we were in the
Civil Engineering building itself.
That - That was tested
by Professor Ramasastri,
he used to sit late in the night and all those
things and take readings and all because he
meant to use it for - by himself,
that is the best way of learning.
And a Hewlett Packard had if and -
when I went back recently when a - thing,
it was started in a car shed
at the time when they exported it to our country,
this thing; it was as usual for a commercial thing
they have to make a box, everything ready,
that is design of a ...
this one, experimental equipment for sale
is different from something
that you [unclear] for your experimental this thing.
So, it was this thing.
And at that time it was vacuum tube technology.
I think it was done
well, it was good.
Yeah, readings you have to do only manually,
take manually like that.
Afterwards, other things came,
then, the other important thing that we bought was
an X-ray generator.
And at that time the diffractometer that is
what is it - computer controlled accesses and all
those things were not there.
So, you have to use photographic methods,
it's photographic, then take the thing.
So one - solving one small crystal structure
molecular structure it would take one and a half years.
Now, it is done you put it and in
about half an hour your thing is given,
these are the bond distances,
this is the thing and all those things it comes.
So, technology has a - 19 -
the - the earlier - till 1970s,
we did not notice any advancement in
technology of accessing experimental results.
So, we have to do everything and then also learn
how to do the - supposing there will be a background
everything, nothing, that is is no experiment is perfect.
It is not a ... you will have to
account for some errors and all those inevitable things.
So the - the experiment the physics of the experimental method
involves a knowledge of the errors, that can arise.
And, how to account for them
to make the - your result credible
that is fitted with the theory
that is what you do is between the- this one - theory
and the theory and the expected result from the theory
and the experimental result that you get
stands in the way,
there some of the errors that are
very likely instrumental errors,
our own errors and all those things;
error this thing - knowledge of these things with necessary,
you unless you correct for that - the thing.
So, we should ... now those things are all programmed.
So, you don’t have to learn,
you can spend your time on other
things - that is the difference.
Till 1970,
'75 and all that, even '80;
only in 1980, only, the integrated circuits came
gates, logic gates everything they came only in 1980s,
prior to that the only integrated device
that was used was the operational amplifier,
it was an analogue device.
The digital electronics came in the 19s 80s,
In that time we had ...
we had to design a course
for the defense scientists.
They were sent from the DRDO,
they were doing part of their course in Electrical Engineering
department and part of the course in Physics,
I taught digital electronics for them.
That would have in a very new subject at that time.
Yes, at that time. Coming up -
So, I learnt it.
So, the digital ICs - by that time the breadboard had
come or a printed circuit board - do - learnt all those things.
So, every time we have to,
but advantage here is - advantage - an opportunity
and challenge are inter - interlinked
and I was asked to take that.
So, I - I took that course,
worked in the evenings and all those thing and then finally,
we designed the course.
The thing is they were all in their middle age 30 plus 35,
30 to 35 years old.
So - you can’t design a examination
they have to undergo examination.
So, we have to - this thing.
But you can’t expect them to write 4 pages,
5 pages for every question.
So what I did was, that is, I used to
prepare a working circuit
this thing, then this - a white eraser
that one was there: typewrite eraser,
white this thing, put it in some places
so that the circuit is different.
So, input this thing, it's some two or three different places
what would be the output?
They should know only the function of that particular
IC that goes there, this thing.
So, the question paper would be some 10 to 12 sheets.
All they have to do is at the bottom a testing, b testing;
they don’t have to write
that is the thing; that ... we had, that is the advantage in IIT is
you can design your questions in your own way,
there is no interference from the top people;
that is the thing,
they don’t interfere with you.
So that the course they felt it is good.
So, if - if you want to test a person
you should consider his ... plus and -
Yeah. minus points beyond his control
that is this thing. Yeah, teaching
JEE students who came through JEE and
teaching DRDO scientists with
age group of 30 is very very different. Yes, yes.
- age, they were all married they had
their own families everything;
so that I did - I - of course,
I took permission, due permission
Professor Sobhanadri was there,
he said it’s a good idea and you do it like this.
Then, suddenly one day
it happened Y. V. J. S. was the Head of the Department as guide,
he said he brought one book: Numerical Methods...
Numerical Methods and Science
in - in - one Scarborough,
it was 1926 - when computers were not there.
Yes, yes At that time one person had written a book
one Harvard professor by name Scarborough had written a book,
saying that this is numerical methods
and science interpolation formula,
then [unclear] and all those things.
So we had a numerical methods and -
programming was the course,
the computer programming had come,
the numerical methods were not there.
So, that course we offered
it was an elective further M.Sc.
It also must be very new.
Because computers were coming in at that time.
that also learn with new course At that time
it was his idea.
Professor Y. V. J. S.' idea we will combine this and then
put it - why don’t to take the course,
this is the book, you can do it well.
Then, at that time I was familiar only with
Fortran 2 programming,
very old one - and also when you get things done,
there is always lethargy not to learn.
I did not learn anything,
even today, I don’t know C language or anything.
So he said, don’t bother, it
it ... there was a response, some
some 6 students from our M.Sc.
they opted for the course.
But, from the other departments
something like 25 people -
person - including some people who are doing Ph.D.
So, they were all familiar with
other languages,
I cannot teach programming to that assembly.
So, what I did was - I will do the numerical part
and gave them questions.
So you solve these things using your program. Any language
numerical methods is different
from programming - beyond programme - language.
So, all the ...this thing questions I gave
I ask them can I give any
you answer as much, you submit assignment,
that was all the work that I - only assignments were there,
examination system;
that flexibility also was
there in - because of IIT - in any other place one cannot do,
you will be questioned. Computer facility was there
in IIT during those days?
Computer facility.
They all had, the better - see, the thing is by that time
the Hewlett Packard computers had come, desktop had come.
In the desktop for particular purposes there were
many systems dedicated to some - this thing it was there.
We still had only at that time
when I was teaching the course at the end
in the present - present computer centre,
1 Siemens computer was...
That was a big computer.
That was a big computer,
that was a centralized system was there.
You have to, all the
this one monitors you have to operate only within that building
and later only they gave some
this one LAN: Local Area Network, this thing they gave
in X-ray diffraction laboratory,
I got one for our use, for students' use.
But there this thing;
so the students they had the
facility in their own way,
some people had C programme,
say C and even C plus had come and all those things.
So many things had come
you do by your own method,
but give me the - the - I want
I wanted it in different steps,
whether they have been able to get it
and most of them were C programming this thing.
So so, please explain how you have done.
So I used to sit as a student in that class
they used to do.
And ... they all did well.
Thing is when the grading came,
there is - there use to be a class committee
I gave S grade to all the people.
S grade. S - superior grade,
they all did well.
Some 20 this thing.
So, for ... there were ... I had to attend 4 class committees.
But, same subject it -, it used to be headed by some.
Different departments.
headed by each department. People
from different departments came. It was not.
So, Physics it would, it would go through,
then, the students who took it
also happen to be good at the other subjects.
In one department the chief objected,
I think this man is not a very good student. That is correct.
Then I had to
well, he was - he was a good friend of mine,
he was a good person.
So, see one can be good at some subjects
may not be good at some other subjects.
So, probably in the subjects that
your department has handled,
you might have found him to be not the best.
He - he is good,
but not this good that’s what I was saying
We do in the class committees when there is a - I mean
when there is a difference of opinion whether S
should be given for some number like 80 percent or 85 percent,
then we look at the performance in other
courses and see whether there is a correlation.
One thing.
So, it has its own peculiarities.
But you should not hurt the... Right.
ego of the other person.
When you want to get things done,
one has to stoop to concur.
That's it ... Thank you.
Probably I have bored you a lot.
[Mr. Sathasivam] Not at all. Not at all.
Definitely not.
Before concluding, anything else you would like to...
Some message or anything you would like to... No, no.
[Inaudible] for the researchers. Nothing, actually,
they ... my this thing is today
at the end of - I am in the declining years,
in the sense, I have most of the ... I have no future,
it is only the present and the past.
But you are producing a book on quantum physics which is - No, no,
that is okay, that is different. What I am telling is
that is, I don’t expect anything ... there is
nothing that I expect to do further and
achieve and then get something,
if there is no particular aim;
having seen, times will change,
attitudes may change, everything may change.
But the thing is the
human relationship and the lasting friendship and affection.
That is, it gives much more satisfaction
than anything that you do,
that is, this often ... does ornateness go with greatness.
But, more often felicity with simplicity.
It’s a ...an old proverb that’s what, this thing,
anything ... that is supposing one feels like coming -
And supposing when you go back
to the department and you see people,
they should feel ... welcome you,
they should have some sweet memories
about you, that is important.
But those who are in position of command
they should elicit some -
but one has to be strict,
because the institution is more important than any
individual friendship or anything, laxity [inaudible],
but it should be good.
Because the - what I have found is
in many times the guide and the student,
they don’t get on well after the
thing is over anywhere.
That should not happen because I ...
I have not achieved much in science,
I have done only some routine work.
And the students whom I have taken, they have all got the degrees,
I had a student also who was mentally affected;
he knows - he knows about it.
He was a very bright fellow,
he got the degree, I - sort it,
I wrote the thesis and he did some -
so many things that -
He was good
but he had this problem because of that he could not Problem with the -
sit and write the thesis also. No.
That was the thing, very bright fellow.
Within 2 months, he published the first paper.
When you look at all those things,
God has been kind to - such thing.
Thank you, sir
Thank you sir, thank you. Thank you very much, sir.
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