Prof. T. T. Narendran in conversation with Prof. V.R. Muraleedharan
Well my name is Muraleedharan,
I teach at IIT Madras in the Department
of Humanities and Social Sciences.
I have been teaching since 1988 here,
but my entry into this campus was on...
if I recollect 12th August 1983,
when I joined here as a Ph. D. student in
the same Department of Humanities and Social Sciences.
So, right from then I have been living inside
the campus except for a period of 4 months.
So today I am here to listen to Professor T. T. Narendran,
who has lived here even much longer period
from 1971 as a Research Scholar and later on as a faculty.
And, he was with the Department of Humanities
and Social Sciences initially as part of the
Industrial Management and Industrial Engineering division.
Later on he became a professor
and he was with the Department of Management.
So, this particular conversation or...conversation with
him, is part of a larger project of the Heritage Centre
called the Oral History of the Institute
as seen through the lives of many people
who have lived here as a student,
as a faculty in the campus or otherwise.
So, today we are going to listen to Professor T. T. Narendran.
I am delighted to be part of this
Heritage Project on the Oral History of IIT.
We would like to listen to you...your journey in IIT,
your story shall we say of your life over
the last 40 years. Could you tell us something about
what led you to enter into IIT life and how it progressed?
Perhaps begin with a brief background about myself.
I reluctantly went for Engineering at
the College of Engineering Guindy which was
then affiliated to Madras University.
And, those were days when we had 5 years of Engineering,
where the branch was decided after the first 2 years.
Ok.
Based on our academic performance.
I got into Mechanical Engineering as I wanted,
but most of the time my heart was really not in it.
Surprisingly, my final year I
chose an elective Industrial Engineering.
And that appealed to me a lot more.
So I got interested in Industrial Engineering
and started looking for opportunities to
study further, and that is when
I found the Industrial Engineering Programme,
I was a little late I think.
So I didn’t even apply for M. Tech.,
I got into M .S. As it turned out I was the first ever
M. S. student in the Department of Humanities.
Nice, in Industrial Engineering.
And the subject was Industrial Engineering.
The industry management came later?
No both of them existed. Ok.
They were parallel...because the history is that
somewhere in the mid-'60s there was a diploma IIT
in Industrial Engineering, later it
became two full fledged programmes,
M. Tech. in Industrial Management
and M. Tech. in Industrial Engineering.
That continued for about 10 years or more.
And...this somewhere after 1979
or so that it became one programme.
One programme.
Yeah. So...what...
Which year was it when you joined? '71.
'71. To be precise August 1971, I think 18th August
if I remember the date, was when I checked in to IIT.
The...I was asked to go to Cauvery Hostel
where the the central office of the chairman council
of wardens office or whatever.
And, they gave me Cauvery hostel itself,
room number 52 ground floor, that also I remember,
and it was only a few months after which I got
a second floor room and I stayed there for
the rest of my tenure as a student in IIT,
through M. S. and part of my Ph. D.
And, one of the accessories that came
with me to my room was the veena. Ok.
And, there used to be this inter-hostel cultural
event of course, it was a very different format
where each hostel would be given a 45 minute slot,
the event would be spread over 3 days,
the same set of judges would come and sit.
Every hostel would put together
a package of whatever talent it has.
It is a annual feature.
Yes. Hostel day or something.
So, whoever is the student secretary, came in search
of me seeing that I play the veena. You have a...
And it began...it was also interesting that in those days, '70s,
before the advent of TV and all that
these events would attract a full OAT crowd. Oh.
And, it possibly helped me, let’s say develop contacts
with the student population, be recognized et cetera.
So, that was, on that side, academically of course,
I must say that those were the early days
when including my guide in the department,
people were not very sure as to
what an M. S. student is supposed to do.
So, there was a little bit of let’s say.
Experimenting with you. In the way.
The other interesting part was...
there was no central computing facility
and...what existed then is
bullock cart age is what you can say.
But, I think they had this 360 even then.
Nothing. Oh. Nothing was there. In '71...
So, all that we had was some kind of understanding
with the College of Engineering Guindy campus,
where there was an IBM 1620 machine
32 K memory ok...and that was the only.
That’s also because of the way in
which the computer industry itself. Through through my guide’s contacts
and all of that I was be able to use that, believe it
or not you can run the programme
and get an output once in a week,
I would have to cycle to all the way there.
But, if you had to use the computer then.
Yeah.
Ok.
Then...the turning point was by about 1973 October
I think, the IIT computer got installed IBM 370 bar 155
I think...512 K memory, which was
a grade higher than what existed
in IISc Bangalore, that had 256 K memory.
So after that things improved, my research.
speeded up a little more. Yeah.
I mean you didn't have to move across the campus. Yes.
And that facility existed through my Ph. D. days
also that’s what I worked with.
The PC in all the the next generation fast computing
came much much later,
so I had to also content with that.
So today I am not surprised that my M. S. took 3 years.
At that time because...
Well, even now it takes roughly about 3 years.
So you are ahead of time.
To be fair, the amount of work that
you can do is much more in the same 3 years.
Right.
At that time I...we could not have been
so productive given the conditions then. Fine that was...so...
What about your... The interesting part is,
between my undergrad and
my M. S. for a couple of months I had gone
to Wheels India Factory as an intern.
I wasn’t too comfortable with the factory environment,
but I put that behind me I started doing my M. S.
Towards the...as I neared completion of my M. S.,
I had fallen in love with this place
I guess, I didn’t want to leave.
So, I told my guide that I want to do a Ph. D.
and I also want to be a faculty member here.
In those days inbreeding was not an issue
because there are hardly any institutions within
the country which could award a Ph. D. degree. Right.
And...so that was made known to the other professors also.
I...I still remember Professor R. K. Gupta advising me
"Why don’t you take a break, work in the industry
and come, that exposure is important."
Who was your master’s supervisor?
Ramani, Professor Ramani was my supervisor
both for M. S. and for Ph. D.
So, the Ph. D. interview was mere formality and...
That time how many were recruited
for Ph. D. along with you? Along with me there was
Just 2 3. Ramji Sampath.
Who also joined with me. Even during my M. S.,
there was one more lady who joined, Mira Sivaram.
So...yeah...so my...let’s say decision to join Ph. D.
was more because I wanted to stay
here permanently and by then I made up
my mind that I want to be in the academic line.
And then, what happened was...in those
days Master’s degree was the minimum qualification
for becoming a faculty, and the post was lecturer.
So, 2 years into my Ph. D. my guide said
"There is an advertisement, why don’t you apply?"
Ok.
He also said, "Who knows...when you finish
your Ph. D. whether there will be a vacancy or not."
Right.
So I applied, I got in.
So I started teaching from let’s say November '76
or...in fact in between for 2 months I was even
a Research Associate with the project of my guide.
The result was, once I got into teaching,
preparation took a long time.
Right.
And, my Ph. D. also look...took a long time,
and there were quite a few in my age group
in various departments, all of us have
this record of notoriously delayed
Have a...
Ph. Ds. We have all taken 10 years in that range. 10 years.
Yeah, '74 to '84, because we weren’t
doing research all the time.
Luckily there is no deadline for like
we have now, 7 years or 8 years.
Today things are far more streamlined.
So...see we have also... And I think you require that flexibility. Yeah.
We have grown with time,
we have learnt, we have evolved
we have become far more professional.
But...this was the situation prevailing at that time.
But fine, the...the other interesting thing was
it was almost like yesterday I was a student
and today I was a teacher suddenly
Just a curiosity about your thesis evaluation,
Was it the same as we had now synopsis and its...
Yes yes. Sent out to three.
The same formalities. Examiners to. The
During my M. S. seminar talk was not a formality,
but I...I had given a seminar talk, not here.
At the OR conference at IIT Kharagpur.
So, I did make one visit there.
Any...any thoughts on the reports
you have received on your dissertation,
what was it...can you...
Don’t remember.
Ok, it was on OR.
But, yeah today going back, we would all
be embarrassed to show our thesis.
Ok. Because the knowledge level is... That's always the case
With anyone.
Gone up so much that, how did somebody might ask today,
"How did you award a degree for this?"
Absolutely. That’s how it...that is how knowledge evolves,
Yes, yes. that's how knowledge grows.
Yes, yes. Fine yeah, so.
Early experience in teaching. The early years of teaching.
Yes. Yeah,
No...as soon as I became a lecturer I went out
of campus, and then within my very first semester,
the students in my class...to use their language,
They started putting line, "Sir there is an Assistant Warden
vacancy in our hostel, why don’t you come?"
Ok.
So, some of the students who are keen on that,
they spoke to the authorities concerned,
and made sure that I became their Assistant Warden,
Tapti Hostel was where I went in.
So for 2 years...
You were there.
I was Assistant Warden in Tapti Hostel, and it was fun,
lot of interactions with students. You would eat there?
You would eat in Tapti?
Yes yes. Ok.
I have eaten in Cauvery Hostel also.
In fact, food was much...this was another...
Given your food preferences...
All those were never a problem...
Then.
And, this is also must be said, the first mess bill
I paid in Cauvery Hostel was 110 rupees.
Today possibly the daily rate would
be of that order or more
Yes, but I think its 90 rupees or something.
So, cost service...and a Master's student
got a stipend of 250 rupees, a Doctoral student
would get a stipend of 400 rupees. 400 rupees.
So, and for a 110 rupees mess bill, 250 stipend was...
Absolutely. More than fine, times have changed.
And, then also there was water scarcity...I mean off
and on, I remember one year when monsoon
failed totally, you had all those... What about the department then, composition
of department, how big was it?
This mix of Industrial Management
along with the Humanities.
When I... Sort of the culture.
Joined it is possibly, about two-thirds in the Humanities
and Social Sciences and one-third of the...
Out of 15...15...
Maybe about 20-24 somewhere in that range. 20 faculty.
Around 20.
And, the north wing was mostly Humanities,
the south wing part was where primarily
Industrial Engineering faculty were located.
There were few who were in the Industrial Management
side who also sat with the...sat with the
Humanities people. For the Industrial Engineering part,
did you have any lab or workshop?
There was a lab, there was an Industrial Engineering lab. That was also on the southern side.
Yeah, that was the last room. Ok.
It is probably now gone to Physics.
Physics ok. Yes.
So, those were there.
So, how many M. Tech. intakes used be there?
It used to be 20 and 20 Industrial Engineering
and Industrial Management. Ok.
And when they merge with, they said 40
and over the next 20 years it went on,
but gradually we realized that
we weren’t getting the best talent, and...
Which year it got wound up...the M. Tech.?
When we decided to start the MBA,
that was as late as 2001.
Oh, it was running till then.
Yeah. Oh.
In fact, the first batch of MBA, when they were
being interviewed, some of the outgoing M. Tech. students
Fine. Were around to help us conduct the interviews.
Ok ok. That also happened.
So about your teaching in particular,
you have I have personally struggled a lot,
how about your experience,
was it that natural to you...or you had to...
It is... Work...
It is actually a mix.
It varied with each subject.
They asked me to teach a subject
called 'Principles of Management.'
Not a subject that I was comfortable with,
but I would prepare with the books,
take notes and then go to the class,
but I seem to manage quite...
Managed I managed well.
The management. That...that went well.
I wanted to teach Operations Research,
but the senior faculty were...already taken that. Already in that.
So it didn’t come to me the first year.
Was it the course for the M. Tech. or the B. Tech.?
For the B. Techs. For the B. Techs.
Then...also I remember, there was nothing
like a plan in those days.
So unlike now, there was no announcement that
these are the courses, these are the slots,
there was no slot system,
timetable would be after reopening.
Right. Teachers would be assigned after reopening.
So, you can be taken by surprise.
So, I was suddenly asked to take
a subject called Computer Simulation.
And, at short notice I was absolutely unprepared,
and my first class was a disaster.
And this student sitting... You had a you had a formal
introduction to that course in your...
I had...
You know. I have done the subject.
But not as a teaching...yeah.
Yeah, and the students sitting in front
of me were my friends earlier.
Ok.
ok, I have been with them in the
same hostel, they were my juniors.
So they also felt very sorry for me.
But, by the end of the semester they said.
Managed.
You have.
Ok.
In fact, only the first class I had difficulty,
after that I think I came through.
But this is not all. Couple of years down
the...in those days we had only one Economics teacher,
but Economics was compulsory for
all the undergrads in the second year.
So we used to get a guest faculty member,
and suddenly one of the Directors said,
"No guest faculty member,
ask your internal people to teach."
And this course was forced on me.
Was was it the same 420?
HS 420, the number was different.
Number was different.
Ok.
Was there a number at that time, I am not
even sure I don’t remember now,
but all that I remember is this.
I picked up this book 'Microeconomics'
by Henderson and Quandt.
Oh that’s a tough one.
But, maths was the background I had, so I tried
to learn Economics through Mathematics.
That’s a good book.
So what happened was, I took notes,
I took the class, my students did not discover
my ignorance of Economics.
And it went like that for a couple of years by
which time I think we got more faculty
and I mercifully got out of it.
Meanwhile I got into Operations Research,
Industrial Engineering or Production Management
was the name of the subject, but fine I was
comfortably settled in the subject area,
that I knew and thereafter it was quite comfortable.
But, the early years, all these turmoils was there,
and you must remember that as a result of
which, I had no time to think of research and my Ph. D.
Yeah, with all these things... was completely in the backburner.
Definitely.
So, thankfully there is no pressure
from the supervisor also on that...on that front.
Now and then there was...it's not
that...the questions were asked,
but fine, thankfully I got out of all of that.
What was the evaluation pattern, teaching what a...was it...
Those were the days when So much in your...lot in your
hands. Every subject would have three periodical tests.
They used to be three cycles of periodicals,
the best two of them would be taken, absolute marking
and then there will be a final semester examination.
So periodical I mean in class, you give some problems
and they solve individually.
Yeah, I mean its not very different
from the quizzes that you have now. The same which is same ok,
just a ok a longer its longer period.
and it always was...Monday, Wednesday,
Friday like that. 8...8 to 8:50.
Those slots were reserved for conducting
the periodical tests. And when I was Assistant Warden,
this also used to happen.
I was teaching my wards in class, and if there
was a periodical test in my subject the next day,
I would hardly get to sleep.
Students would come in 1s and 2s
and keep asking doubts, some of them only ask doubts,
some of them also tried to see
if I...they could get any clues on what will come
in the question paper the next day.
So I had to be extra smart, not to let any of that happen.
At the end of the semester one of the students confessed,
"Sir, we found that by not asking you anything about
that test we will have a better idea as to what is coming,
if we ask you you completely mislead us."
But anyhow, being approachable
and being able to help the students was good experience.
When you joined, who were the faculty members,
you said about 20 people were there,
but some of the prominent ones both
in Humanities and Social Sciences. Yeah yeah.
And the related question later on, the Department
of Management was created I think around 2006. Yeah.
4...5 or 6. A brief history into what led to its formation,
could you throw some light on that?
Ok, when I joined, Professor R. K. Gupta
was the Head of the Department
and then if I remember right,
he was the only professor, then
Dr. Anantharaman, V. Anantharaman, was
the Associate Professor, he is no more,
there was one more Professor, N. K. Dutta
was the other Professor.
He was a Professor of Industrial Engineering.
Unfortunately within 6 months of
my joining, he passed away; Professor N. K. Dutta
died of heart attack on...in January,
I had joined in August.
In fact, he had started teaching a subject
for us in January that semester,
unfortunately died prematurely.
So.
Ramani.
Professor Gupta and Dutta were
the professors at that time. Professor V. Anathraman
was the associate professor, Ramani
was Assistant Professor, and then we had
I think Arumugam was there in Industrial Engineering.
Jayashankar.
No no, they...all of them came later.
And the Professor L. V. L. N. Sarma was there,
there used to be a gentleman called Asthana
Psychology Behavioral Sciences.
He also died young, at the age of 33, he died of
a heart attack. And then...V. S. Kumar
Yes. Was there, Professor Krishna Rao was there.
Ok.
Hamsa Leelavathi was the Economics faculty member
at that time, Elizabeth Kurian
was already there. Yeah, Durga Prasad Rao.
Durga Prasad Rao. Durga Prasad Rao...
And then C. Ramachandran.
C. Ramachandran was there of course, History.
So, that’s...
Yeah.
I think all of whom were there
by certainly mid '80s when I was...
Yeah.
Except Ramani...
Some light on formation of the Management Department.
Yeah, somewhere towards the late '90s,
the discussion had started. It was more
about whether we should start an MBA programme.
And in a very different thinking from today’s,
what I had heard was that the MHRD had said
there is a large demand for MBAs in the country,
but it is terribly expensive for us to start
so many IIMs, IITs have the infrastructure.
So why don’t IITs get you...get into MBA education.
And by then a few IITs had started. Kanpur
and Madras IIT were the late entrants into MBA programme.
So by about 2001, we had decided...they decided
that we would close down the M. Tech.
Industrial Management Programme
and launch the MBA programme.
I think August 2001 or so in fact, that year also we had a water scarcity
and late reopening, the inaugural of the programme
happened in the ICSR auditorium.
2004.
2001...1 was when the MBA programme is launched.
Right.
And then, then we made the case for formation of
a department which was unanimously I think
supported by the Senate, but then, a department
has to be created by an act of the parliament,
it required parliamentary clearance.
So all that happened around 2004,
I think Management Studies and Biotechnology happened
approximately around the same time,
these two departments were created.
So any special role played by any individual, could
be Director or others who enabled this formation to happen, would you...
The...the commence its a. Attribute any...
The starting of the MBA
programme had the full support of the
then Director Professor Natarajan. Natarajan.
And, the creation of the department
and all of that had the support of Professor Ananth and...
and initially, we still continued to exist
in the HSB only, same building.
After that by then the new library building was coming up,
the old library was being abandoned.
So there was also the proposal to convert
the old library building to a Department of Management Sciences Block
So one thought since we have talked about
the management department creation, now in building
the department, particularly from adding faculty,
how difficult was it to get good faculty
who would have otherwise gone to better institutions.
This should have really you know worried you,
or..or whoever at the helm of affairs.
See I think all through, the pull factor
was the brand name of IIT.
Then additional pull factor could...it was some of
the colleagues could have been the city of Chennai,
or Madras whichever, that need not
have motivated everybody to come here,
but IIT had some attraction.
Joining a Department of Humanities and Social Sciences,
there would have been a reluctance, starting of
an MBA programme would have
given a little more motivation, okay
I will have a meaningful role to play,
people were willing to join.
Once a department was created, I think...
These were...
Yeah. Less of a problem. Yeah.
The other problem was, there was a time
when let us say every department faculty
strength was strictly legislated upon.
And so whether it is taking research scholars
or taking faculty members, it was also about, will
everybody get an equal share of the cake?
Right.
So we also had to worry about balancing
the requirements of the Humanities sections,
the Social Sciences section, the Management section.
Right.
Some of which was not always
pleasant, and you know about this. Right right right
but now things are...that sharing problem,
is not so much a problem, because
as long as you feel someone can be taken. Yeah.
So, anyway.
The constraints have largely gone off. Gone off.
A lot of the financial constraints have moved out,
infrastructural constraints have gone off.
I think the overall health of
the institute is is much better today.
If anything, interaction amongst people might
have come down over the years and the reasons
are obvious, it's happen...it's a worldwide phenomenon.
So, you don’t have to particularly blame IIT for that.
Two things come to my mind,
one is which largely persists even today,
but the kind of interaction you may have had
with faculty in other departments.
Was there...opportunities for that, nowadays we go for JEE
No, JEE. At least it gives an opportunity to interact with others.
JEE existed even then, there was some other system
which caused this interaction.
Centralized invigilation, entire seating
and invigilation of the semester exams in particular. Right so you meet more often.
Centralized.
So, I would end up in a department,
in a branch and with another colleague
whom I have not met at all. And then
we get to talk and...that is how it was.
But what about sitting in doctoral committee
of other departments, or vice versa?
It was there. So it was there so there. The system was there.
So there is...that was there to give that opportunity. Yes yes.
Right from the beginning, it was...as far as
I know, it was 6 members in the doctoral committee,
which had Head of the Department, Guide,
2 from the... 2 from the department, and 2 from outside the department.
That composition I think remained the same.
Very good.
So, the other thing that we all know about
you, is your closeness with students.
It doesn’t happen with everybody,
you know even with good teachers, popular teachers, but...
I think. Your relationship with the student...
It probably had to do with the fact that,
when I was a PG student, I already had
a lot of undergraduate friends,
I was moving with them freely.
So when I went to class, suddenly I could not
change my role and start acting different.
So I was just my natural self.
So, the friend continued to remain the friend that’s
all, I couldn’t be any different.
So that way almost throughout my service,
I have not felt uncomfortable interacting with students.
Subsequently, that’s what I was Assistant Warden,
so I interacted with the students a lot.
Then somewhere in the mid '80s, I was head of
the guidance and counselling, and '80s was when the GCU
Got formed.
Yes, was formed. A lot of discussions again,
and that also I have went through,
let us say iterations, trial and
errors, some costly also.
You have had, you have had very large number of Masters
and Ph. D. students you have had,
As a supervisor.
So, can you tell something about the composition...
anything...how, just the numbers part of it,
how many you have guided so far,
and you want to say something about
your...your experience with...as a guide,
any outstanding thing you want to mention? I had
about yeah exactly 20 Ph. D. students,
and the 20 happened after I retired,
3 or 4 of them finished after...
Ok. my retirement.
About 17. I...I had to come and finish.
Before you finished. Yeah.
That’s a big number. And
Yeah. M. S. was probably around 15
or so, because in later years what happened,
a student would join for M. S.
and then convert to Ph. D.,
that also happened a couple of cases.
I have had the pleasure of having
one student along with you Ganesh. Yeah.
Correct.
You have had co-supervision with others?
Yeah, yeah I had co-supervision other... Other departments.
Mechanical Engineering with Professor Shanmugam. Shanmugam, Shanmugam ok.
Doctoral student, yes.
So. And all your students are in mostly in universities
or industry because they could go either way
I think more on the academic side.
Some are...would be something like 60-40,
60 percent academics and 40 percent corporate. And
Mostly on the same production,
or you have had any diversity?
There has been diversity.
Because we have worked on drugs.
See my research was on a subject called inventory control,
I didn’t have much faith in the subject itself
and its relevance as I moved into...
Faculty and started guiding.
If I almost have no student who worked on
the same subject that I did my Ph. D. in.
Early years it was largely on manufacturing systems,
cellular manufacturing system flexible. Right, right I remember.
Manufacturing system and all that
and after the '90s that also changed,
there was a period in between where...yeah '95
or so, I got to become Professor,
I thought I must help my younger colleagues.
We were in the Humanities Department
and a very few students who were
coming in for doctoral programme.
So, for the next 4-5 years I did not take any. Take any.
Doctoral students, I took masters students,
but not for Ph. D. Then it revived in about 2001
or so, thereafter I had a regular flow
of doctoral students again.
And, by then, again I shifted to vehicle routing problems.
Right.
And the last 15 years or so, it was largely
in the area of logistics, vehicle routing then...
Supply chain. Freight train
Scheduling, convoy movement problem,
supply chain management broadly is...
The only common thing to most of these topics would
have been, they were combinatorial optimization problems,
a few went out of that also.
There was one the very classical industrial
Engineering Ergonomics kind of area also,
One or two went in that direction.
And then there was one where I had a marketing
co-guide Professor Vijaya Raghavan.
Yes.
This is one student right in fact,
two students under our joint guidance.
But I think the other topics you mentioned are also the
topics on which larger number of people are working in. Yes.
Correct.
So, that’s a good...
Yeah. Group kind of thing mostly. Yeah.
So, I would like to now ship the direction
of the conversation into something that
on which you would...you you can talk
a lot, that’s about the music.
So, can you tell us about the story of the Music Club
here, of which you were the founder and integral part? No, I was not the founder.
Ok. So, you tell the...tell the story, yeah.
See, I came in...in August 1971. What I got to know was
the Music Club started in October 1970
or so, and the early members who were actively associated
with the Music Club, were Professor M. Venugopal,
Professor Sampath, Professor Narayan Rao,
and then there was Professor V. S. Raju.
Yes. Professor Raju was the first treasurer of the Music Club,
Professor Narayan Rao was the Secretary.
I see.
And, it's also important to record that
Professor Narayan Rao had a Technical Assistant,
an STA by name Balasubramanium, R. Balasubramanium.
He was the person who did most of the contacting
of musicians and fixing up of concerts and all that.
For some time, CLT was under renovation
or it was taken over for air conditioning,
it was not available to us.
And, they gave us a venue on the first floor of BSB,
where subsequently the IBM 370
mainframe computer was located. I see, I see.
So, I have attended a couple of concerts there also.
And even before I got...yeah associated with the Music Club,
I think I got an invitation to perform in the Music Club
and that was at CLT, I remember that.
And then gradually got into the committee,
and became a volunteer, and my association
with Music Club has been from grassroots level.
So I have gone around distributing circulars,
spreading carpets on the floor,
all kinds of odd jobs that I have done.
Subsequently, went on to become
Joint Secretary, Secretary later on
President. So, this would be like a seasonal.
Yeah. Like we have even now.
Not so regular every month or something.
No...at all times what we use to do is this,
we keep track of the academic calendar.
So at the end of a. Space.
Periodical cycle,
When there is a break, we try to have concerts.
So, that students will be able to attend,
and the student membership was much higher in those days.
I see.
A concert by M. D. Ramanathan would
have at least half the CLT full.
Has M. D. Ramanathan come here?
I see.
Amongst the stalwarts who have come into this
I think the very first concert was Ramnath Krishnan.
The second was Lalgudi Jayaram, these happened
before I came in, and then we have brought
in Chembai Vaidyanatha Bhagavathar,
I remembered twice I got Alathur Srinivasa Iyer.
With Palghat Mani Iyer on the mridangam.
And then Semmangudi has sung here once with.
K. V. N. T. N. Krishnan and Palghat Raghu.
K. V. N. many times.
Many times I see. Yeah.
M. S.?
M. S. we couldn’t get, D. K. Pattammal has sung
quite a few times, so has M. L. V.
So M. S. Subbulakshmi was the only person.
These are all '70s. Yeah.
Balamuralikrishna we have brought in,
Chitti Babu, Balachander we got him once. So all the. Yeah.
Mandolin Srinivas.
Ok.
I still...still remember somewhere in 1988,
when Mandolin Srinivas played.
Mandolin I remember, I was...'88,
I was very much here.
The CLT was so packed.
Yes.
That except the place where the artists sat,
there were people everywhere on the field, jam packed.
So you are of course, you are...even otherwise had
a network of you know relationship with many musicians.
Yeah, actually I would say that working for
that Music Club also helped me network with musicians. Yeah
So that was what...I am going to ask. Yeah.
So that helped me build contacts, rapport with
the musicians, and that came handy during How did you.
Difficult times
For example, when I went off campus, see...'79 to '88
I was not on campus, I was coming from outside.
So at that time I was not so actively associated
with music because, there were others
who were living on campus who could run it.
When I came back in '88, then...there was this talk,
and Music Club they said was not in
good shape, it was struggling and so on.
Financially or?
Yeah, financially also. I was...I was just going to ask
all these big personalities you
brought, then sanmanam for them.
Yeah.
What’s the kind of scale... See the renumeration,
I...again if you look at
value of money, in the '70s, the membership
was the order of 2 rupees per head,
3 rupees per head, something like that.
And I could finish a senior concert in 300 rupees.
Of all...
All to...
All together except the transport.
Yeah, I mean if I pay 300 to the main artist,
he would distribute it amongst the accompanying artists
and that was all that was required because,
as I said the value of money. That's a...that's a 3...3 hour concert.
3 hour concerts, those were not problems then.
And yes we have lived through the inflation and
Fine. Then
periodically raising the subscription rates, raising the remunerations
Its gives an idea of.
Yeah.
Kind of budget you have to manage...
There were times when we had to plead with
the musicians saying, "We can’t afford so much,
so please accept what we have to offer" and so on.
And, I still remember '88 when I took over,
and by then remunerations had gone up, I phoned up
the famous flautist
Sri Ramani.
And, said "Sir, Sharanagathi."
He understood.
My club is..."I can pay you only this much,
but please don’t say no", and he accepted.
I still remember, T. Rukmini was the violin accompaniment.
And after that we gradually...within about 6 months
I was able to get Mandolin Srinivas.
So when you say... The significant change was, after that, the role
of student volunteers increased significantly.
From that point of time, and I gave them a free hand,
we...the discussion was only whom to invite, so up
to that point, I would be there, part of the discussion.
I gradually encouraged them to contact
musicians, fix up dates, coordinate et cetera.
What happened as a result was, see, the students
were a floating population, year after year,
the office bearers would change.
So get them in the second year.
Depending on the student capability, attitude et cetera,
the performance of the Music Club also would fluctuate.
Year to year.
But most of the years I think I had a good bunch of students.
So, and...
Any...any unusual thing happened? Like,
with musician not turning up, but turn...or CLT power going off.
We...we have had for example...we fixed the concert,
and had to call it off because of a heavy downpour,
that’s happened more than once.
One concert I remember was Vedavalli
I think we ourself would not come in
so in...in the light of it, you might
Yeah. You would call them and say not...
They pleaded, "Let’s not have the concert"
Fine. "Its raining too heavily."
So, those kind of things have happened.
Are you recording everything, even with then? No.
When did the recording idea start?
Recording. I think we can have good archives
of that, even for the last 10 years.
It was only late Professor Swaminathan of
Physics Department who took
an active interest in recording.
So...at...during his period, concerts were recorded,
but unfortunately since he died a bachelor,
we don’t know where those recordings are What about from late
'80s onwards, when you were...
We had not recorded because...
Since, the last 10 years? Even then, oh!
See, recording was not a practice
because artists could object to it.
I...I know some unauthorized recordings have happened,
but we did generally did not encourage recording.
I see.
In fact, there was an another interesting...
we also did not encourage the sudden request in,
slips coming and accepted the fag end of the concert. Right, right.
And some of them were irrelevant, untimely
and embarrassing also.
For example, somebody towards the end
of the concert will say, "Can you sing Entharomahaanubhaavulu, or Vatapi Ganapathim."
Ok.
So...I...these were the kind of requests which...
if the slips come to me, I would sit in the first row...just squeeze
the paper, not pass it on at all. Right, right.
It happens, I mean I...I don’t blame a member of the
audience for being ignorant, but I also request...
You somebody has to take control of the...
That member understand that all requests. Yes.
cannot be forwarded indiscriminately.
What about your sports interests,
have you played been part of any team of...
Yeah yeah. Cricket or.
The only time I think within the hostel
some intra-hostel a little bit of cricket.
6 side or something?
Little bit of cricket within the hostel, just once.
Otherwise largely inactive in sports.
Other...as a result of being part of this campus,
is...you are...any specific music
you would have anyway pursued.
But, as a result of being in this campus, other
than music, any special interest that grew
out of being in the campus?
I would say there has been a lot of learning about...
its a...political systems, economics and the left view
and the right view and all of those
and within the hostel we would have these arguments.
Views.
And, I still remember what I...a friend and my confessed.
As a result of all these endless arguments,
I had, he was not as hard a leftist
as he was in the beginning
and I was not as hard a rightist
As you were.
All of us kind of opened up. And by the time
I left the place I have come to the conclusion
that there is nothing like right or wrong.
And, value judgment itself has become
a big question mark, it...we...each of us have our
own baggage, with that we try to judge.
What about your experience as a resident of this campus?
I mean you have lived there in the campus for nearly. Yeah.
25 years.
Yeah.
Both the hostel sector and
Yes.
Later outside.
No, I am...I am talking as a faculty
Yeah.
And, the residential section.
No, the one point which I must mention here,
at all times I have noticed that if
there were maintenance issues in the hostel,
the Engineering Unit did not respond well,
I am sorry to say this, for leaking taps
or let’s say lighting not working, whatever.
The repairs or the replacements did not happen
quick enough and I think this...quite a few wardens of
later years also would testify to. That was always...
This was in the '80s, '90s? Yeah.
And things...
Yeah, see it is...it is like this, attitudinally
we have this problem, and couple of times
I have told the staff also, not just
Engineering Unit staff that, you all think
students are a burden, students are a nuisance,
but remember we won’t exist here
if the students did not come. Right, right.
Right.
So, why don’t you...
I think this is the point you made in the...
My farewell speech.
Farewell speech as well.
Now, coming to the resident side. I spent about
8 years on Adyar Avenue, D-30, it was a new block.
I was your neighbor. Yeah
and then we move to Lake View Road
and there were some interesting wildlife scenes also,
its a...and the...its a more crowded Adyar Avenue itself.
There was a bird which I have never seen,
but the early morning it would sing
and it would sing to tune, and that was far more musical
than the much more...let’s say the popular cuckoo.
This was the early morning 4 o’ clock you know. Yes.
Right.
I...I even remember sometimes, the bird would go out
of tune, correct itself and then sing again.
I see.
But, I still don’t know what the bird looks like
and I don’t know the bird still goes around.
Another bird which I have seen which in those days
and subsequently I never got to see was a white bird
with a long tail it shaped like a 'W.'
And, the tail would, let’s say
Huge.
Move beautifully when the bird flew,
and that bird again I could never see.
A third interesting wildlife experience,
there were cockroaches in my house.
I pushed them out of the balcony
and as the cockroach was falling, it was still alive,
a kingfisher swooped down
and caught the cockroach mid air and ate it.
Ok. So, that’s what they are good at.
Scenes which we could not film then.
So, quite a few interesting experiences.
After moving into Lake View Road, the interesting
thing is, quite a few instances of snakes
coming into the house, once when I had gone out
there was a snake sitting inside my veena.
Oh. And my wife noticed it, she called the security,
and by then we had become so friendly with snakes,
that her fervent plea was "Please do not kill the snake."
Just enable them to
Yeah. get out.
I...I remember another day, early morning,
I got up, opened the front door
and there was a snake, it saw me and quickly
Went away.
Crossed the road and went to the other side.
I think you had the you had the lake...
Yeah.
nearby though you suffered I think, one...a few times
The flooding has happened quite a few times. I think the
lakes presence near your home. Yeah,
it was great. Something unique.
And sometimes we used to go stand near the lake
and there would be a gentle breeze blowing,
pleasant viewing, and there were interesting
birds which come to the lake also.
The black cormorant, I have seen a painted stork.
More interesting than the lake is the swamp in front of my house,
which would be filled with water during the rainy season.
Yeah. Some of the birds
Will come there. Would nest during that season, by that time
the water dries up, the chicks would have flown off.
So they were safe. And another instance
I remember was, we saw a snake, which had caught a
kingfisher, the...this kingfisher was still in its mouth,
and my neighbor Dr. Maha Seshsayee says, "Can’t
we do something to save the poor bird?" Nothing...
You have witnessed
Yeah. it happen.
So, these are all part of living with the wild.
In fact...my early years I have seen this also,
monkey plucking some fruit and throwing
it down for the deer to eat. The deer
looked up, the monkey responded,
they had also lived in harmony.
I don’t know how often we get to see that,
but consequently I could see that the black buck
population was much higher in the early years,
and I have seen them hop around,
fantastic sight, that did not happen.
Somewhere in between that there was an obsession
for fencing all the departments that caused... Most of it was removed now.
Yeah, subsequently the fences have gone,
but, there is still, let us say, a nostalgic recall of
a campus which had fewer buildings, fewer people,
fewer cars, hardly 5 cars on the campus
Yes.
In the '70s when I came in, and there were more
bird species. Many of the birds, I mean I did not know
the name, I can’t identify them.
Right. But, a lot of those birds have vanish...vanished,
and of course, one of the wildlife expert...see it
was less wooded then, so what Mr.
Ranjit Daniel apparently has said is, that "As
the true...tree grew up and formed a canopy,
the monkeys could dart across over the trees,
and they did a lot of damage to the birds' nests.
The birds lost their comfort zone. So isolated trees
are better than the canopy formation is what seems
to be the lesson. Of course, it is too late.
So, one question I want to pose, sort of counterfactual
now, we still follow broadly 8 to...classes begin by 8 o’ clock.
Yeah. And, finish for the students, and I personally even
now prefer early the class the better.
Of course, the...from the students'
point of view its all the changing.
Yeah. They would like to see even at least 10 o’ clock.
Not 9 o’ clock, 8 o’ clock or later, what would
be your reaction today, you know seeing
the class 8 o’ clock half of whom not had a bath,
not had breakfast, not had slept,
would you have enough enthusiasm? I think...
This is a
See morning bath was a casualty even in those days. Right.
The moment you get the freedom of
a hostel life, bath is your option, ok.
Yeah.
So, or how often you wash your clothes et cetera.
That’s ok.
Right. Second is about...
Personal hygiene.
Skipping the breakfast and not having had sleep.
So, its really a...you need enormous
motivation yourself, to front, to motivate.
How would you respond to the situation? See
what I would say is this, the...the
the student attitudes have also changed,
there possibly more students were a little more serious
about Engineering, than there are now.
Today it is simply a social pressure which puts
a lot...pushes a lot of reluctant students into the IIT system.
So as a teacher how would you handle an 8 o’ clock
class in this kind of ambience?
See. To that’s the...
I...I would go by. So as a...as a lesson for others.
I would go by what our former Director Professor Ananth
used to say, "There are a few front benchers
who are motivated and who listen to you,
you lecture to them and come out
don’t worry about the rest."
And I have seen a clear three way classification:
front benchers who are interested, motivated,
will listen to you, will not sleep,
and then there was a middle row, which is ok.
And then there is a last one third,
they won’t come with notebooks,
they will just come there and...there is a...put their heads down
and sleep, they are there only for
the attendance, nothing else, they're not bothered.
And, in a class of 80,
it doesn’t make sense for me to bother.
Only if they bother others.
See...it...yeah that’s...one thing is, I have never had
this problem of indiscipline in
the form of student shouting or chatting or
That rarely. Disrupting my class.
Yes. That doesn’t happen in IIT.
Yes, yes.
I have heard that that also used to happen in the '60s.
So student indiscipline of that kind has not been
there, student indifference, plenty.
That’s true. Right.
So, indifference you have to put up with
because, India, we still don’t have a society
which allows every kid to choose
what he/she wants to do, right?
It is still pushed by society, status, prestige and so on.
So, anything else you would like to talk about as part
of your journey, that that would otherwise not reach others?
Yeah, on the culture side, '70 was a time
when student competitions at an inter-hostel level
would bring full crowds to OAT or CLT,
wherever that was. '74 was when...yeah before '74
it was the inter-collegiate stuff was...
there was no Mardi Gras.
Local colleges would be invited to participate, there would
be about 10 or 12 colleges, and in the same format
as inter-hostel, you were given 45 minutes,
you do whatever you want, with your talent.
And, this is...this incident I have narrated before,
Madras Medical College was on stage,
and their MC announced that somebody is going
to play western classical music on the violin.
The moment they said classical a lot of
the students started walking out.
This person came and started playing, the people
who walked out came back, you know
who the violin player was? L. Subramaniam Oh!
They didn’t know who was L. Subramaniam. No.
They just heard and. Yes.
That’s it.
L. Subramaniam was not known.
Right.
But after he played...
He had not become such a big then,
they were playing as a trio, Carnatic concerts,
he and his brothers but...
But, the power of his music. Yeah.
Fantastic.
So, that was an interesting incident,
then after Mardi Gras started and we classified
You. The events into, let’s say there was a
separate competitions for classical music, light music, western
music, debate everything...
So, you were actively involved in that part of the Mardi Gras.
Mardi Gras couple of years as coordinator and all that.
No, but you would actively engage
Yes.
Being you know. That’s what.
Part of Mardi Gras.
Classical music shows at least have been coordinated,
even light music one year I think I was the coordinator.
And, interesting thing was, through the '70s
the audience turnout was good.
Later years I found that even in a small classroom,
you don’t get anybody other than the participants and
people who come with them.
The interests have completely changed, of course,
TV came somewhere in the late '70s, it was black
and white TV and then it was color TV
and afterwards that time nobody stop
let’s say watches TV also now.
TV has come in and gone out,
TVs exists in common rooms possibly, except
for some interesting cricket matches or
so, I go doubt if people watch
the TV in the common room.
So, lot of things have changed.
Ok. So, several of your students particularly
the B. Techs who are now abroad,
are you...I am sure you are in touch with many people,
but would you say you...you are still in
in contact with a large number of them?
No, no, its only a small number,
social media has helped, Facebook
Through the social. Through Facebook.
How many of them are in academics?
I think amongst those who went to US, a fairly good number.
30-40 of would be in academics. Yeah yeah.
And they had passed through the either the
Management Department or IIM department?
No, no. Or not necessarily.
Mostly undergrads. Undergrads.
Whom I taught.
Yes ok. Yeah,
And couple of them have gone on record saying,
I was inspired to pursue operations research
because of Professor so and so. Yeah.
So, thank you very much for sharing with us your Thank you
long journey, I am sure those who have
an opportunity to listen and watch the video later
on, will have much insights into the campus life
of...through you, the campus and the institution.
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