Prof. Arun Menon: Very good morning. Welcome to the next edition of the oral history series by the Heritage Centre of IIT Madras.

And today we are absolutely delighted and grateful to have with us Professor V. Kalyanaraman, whose association with IIT Madras began way back in 1963

as an undergraduate student who stepped into the portals of IIT Madras.

Professor Kalyanraman came back as a faculty member and joined the civil engineering department and retired from service in 2010 and his association continues with IIT Madras till today.

We are absolutely thrilled to have this conversation intended to record

this long journey and Professor Kalyanraman's association with IIT Madras.

Very good morning, Professor. Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: Thank you.

I'm very glad to be here. As I mentioned, 63 to 68, I was an undergraduate student at IIT Madras.

In 1980 to 2000, I was a faculty member at IIT Madras.

And it's been a long journey and I continue to cherish that journey.

I'm glad to be here to recall some of the events during this period.

Thank you. Prof. Arun Menon: Thank you, sir.

Let me take you back to 1963

when the journey began. What was the admission like then?

But before that, when did you know about it, Madras?

And when did you decide that you would want to take up education here?

What was the selection procedure like?

Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: Actually, my brother was already a student at IIT Madras two years earlier to me.

So I came to know IIT Madras through him, and he motivated me to join IIT Madras.

But then, the decision to apply for IIT Madras took place when I was doing my pre-university, which is just the year before joining IIT.

A few months before, some friends joined together and said, "Why don't you apply?"

So I applied. And there was no two years of preparation, I think, like that, in those days.

So we finished our PUC and came and write the JEE at that time.

And there were two weeks between the PUC exam and the JEE; that was the time we reviewed whatever we had learned in PUC.

We didn't learn more than what we had learned in PUC, right?

But today I think it's a different story.

So, the motivation was my brother.

Actually, in those days, you know, I also got into, got admission into Guindy Engineering College.

Right. And the difference between IITs and an engineering college, if it's not that much, I could have just easily joined IIT Guindy Engineering College.

And the reason was, it would have been less of a burden, a financial burden on my family if I joined an engineering college because I didn't have to stay in the hostel.

But my brother convinced my father to let me come to IIT because he said that the quality of education there was much superior, he felt.

So I joined IIT Madras and did not join Guindy Engineering College.

So it's like it's all a providence that gets you where you go.

Prof. Arun Menon: So the follow-up question.

Your brother was already here, and so that sort of motivated you in a way to join him here.

So what motivated your brother to choose IIT over the Guindy Engineering College?

Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: Actually, my brother did not come to BTech, regular BTech crowd.

In those days, he finished his BSc in Physics, and after finishing BSc, they had a four-year engineering program, you

know, a four-year engineering program, where they joined second Year, because they finished all the requirements, they joined second year.

And so, and that was not through exam, that was through interview or things like that.

So, he joins; he is not a regular BTech student, let's say.

Prof. Arun Menon: So, he didn't have to write the JEE He didn't write the JEE.

So in 1963, when you began, there wasn't infrastructure like we know, at least in the early 2000s and so on.

Which hostel was it? Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: I was in Tapti Hostel.

In those days, the Kavari, Krishna, and Narmada were over.

Tapti was a brand new hostel. We moved into Tapti.

All of us could not be accommodated in Tapti.

So we also had some students stay in Godavari.

So Godavari was also under construction. And some people stayed in the common room of Godavari.

And that's the first stay in Tapti. But we had a single room.

Prof. Arun Menon: That's interesting that people were staying in the common room.

That happens even today. Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: Oh yeah? Prof. Arun Menon: Because we're running short of space.

And we pack 10 students to a room.

A common room. Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: But then you also are doubling up rooms in the first year, right?

Prof. Arun Menon: Yes. That's been happening quite uh.. regularly. Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: And we had a single room.

Prof. Arun Menon: Yes. So it's impossible to give a single room in the first year.

And we're using common rooms and packing quite a few people into a common room.

So it's just a space crunch, just... Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: Continues to be used. Prof. Arun Menon: Continues to be used.

But the story has not changed. So... Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: And then the institutional building...

There was only the BSB.

HSB has just been opened up. So we had all the science subjects in HSB, engineering subjects in BSB, and the directors office, deputy directors office, registrars office in the BSB.

And the library was in BSB.

And our civil engineering class was in BSB.

Prof. Arun Menon: So it's 63, when you were joining, the director's office was still in the AC.

And the library, where was the library?

Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: Topmost floor, where the computer science was. Prof. Arun Menon: Computer science.

Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: That's where the library was. Prof. Arun Menon: So that's been a volatile floor.

It went to the library, then to computer science, and finally to engineering.

Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: Right. The near top floor, yes. Yes.

Prof. Arun Menon: What was a typical day, those days, between classes and hostel life?

Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: Pretty hectic, pretty hectic. You know, classes started at 8:00 in the morning and went on until 4:30 in the evening, and

we had one week of workshop and one week of classes.

So we had a whole one week of workshop.

And then workshop and drawings in one week.

And then math, physics, and chemistry in another week.

So we had a pretty heavy load of workshop. We went through, you know, shop and tree, fitting, smithy, and electrical workshop in the first year.

In the second year, we had some machine workshop.

And so we had a German pattern of a very heavy load of workshop.

And, you know, we had all kinds of experiments that were done on us.

We had exams declared on Sunday, Saturday, exams declared on Friday evening.

What subjects you will be tested on would be known to us by Friday evening.

We will have the midnight oil burning on Friday night.

I liked Saturday morning exams, and on Saturday evening we used to go to the swimming pool and swim at the YMCA.

So, we'll come back for the OAT movie on Saturday night.

Those were hectic days, but we thoroughly enjoyed them.

Prof. Arun Menon: And with the cycle as a mode of transport, even to the YMCA and all that.

Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: Not all of us had a cycle. Most of us walked, a few of us had a cycle, and of course we borrowed a friend's cycle to go to the YMCA.

Prof. Arun Menon: So you talked about this pattern where there was one week of workshop followed by a week of class.

And it should go on for the whole year.

Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: For the whole of first year like that.

Prof. Arun Menon: So these exercises were in the workshop where... Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: Yeah, very, very well.

And that gave me confidence that I could do anything, honestly.

You know, that's why at Instructors Lab, sometimes when the welder says that this cannot be welded, I will tell him that I will weld it, then you look small, so you better weld it.

So that type of confidence that we had, because we had a good workshop.

Prof. Arun Menon: So that training was so critical to...

Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: You know, even as a faculty, leave alone.

I think, you know, maybe today's, you know, types, you know, subjects have grown, all subjects have grown.

Today maybe it's maybe too high. But certainly some amount of workshop has been very, very helpful, especially in Indian conditions because most of us do not have that kind of exposure anywhere else.

You know, hands-on training is not there for most of us as Indians.

And workshop gave us the training. Prof. Arun Menon: The workshop is there; currently it is twice a year in the summer and the winter.

So, it is a very concentrated module.

Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: It is still good.. Prof. Arun Menon: The exposure is there and they get to do things, yes.

So, you said you were in Tapti,

And did the hostel have its own mess at that time in Tapti?

Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: Yes. Each hostel had a mess. Each hostel had a mess.

Both vegetarian mess and non-vegetarian mess.

Prof. Arun Menon: Both. Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: They were separate. Vegetarian mess on one side, non-vegetarian mess on one side.

As a vegetarian, to start with, I will be sitting at the end of the vegetarian mess.

Prof. Arun Menon: Right. Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: As the years went by, we went to the center where we made friends with non-vegetarians.

We used to sit together and enjoy meals.

I think that's the nice thing about IIT.

We all grew in very many ways.

The best part of it is... Unlike today, I think at IIT Madras had people from all over the country, 50% of them were North Indians, and 50% of them were South Indians, and probably even more.

And we were exposed to all kinds of cultures of the country.

And we learned to accept and appreciate the diversity of the country at that time.

Prof. Arun Menon: And at that age, I think... Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: Yeah, it's so important.

Prof. Arun Menon: It's so important to have that. Any reminiscence of the hostel food then?

Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: Hostel food was always good, you know, to start with.

And then after that, the food remained the same, but we got tired of the same food.

That's, I think, very good. Prof. Arun Menon: That's not changed. I think that's even today, true.

Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: But the quality of the food was good.

And in fact, some of us used to go late in the evening because we would get freshly made food, and they would run out and then they would make fresh curry.

So we would get freshly made curry later in the evening.

So we used to go late to the mess.

And some of us had ideas of muscle building.

And I had a friend of mine who had a whole good gym.

So I accompanied him to the gym thinking that I would also build muscles like him but never did.

But at least I got to try it out.

Prof. Arun Menon: You talked about your evenings, you would go to YMCA and then OAT on Saturday morning.

So that's it. Your weekend was... Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: Actually, we would go swimming and have some snacks outside.

We won't come for dinner. Call from the gate and late meal so that they'll keep for us late meal.

After finishing the OAT, we will go and have a meal.

But you should know, we were all in different hostels because in those days, they stayed and did not stay in the same hostel.

They mixed the hostels; they wanted the students to mix.

So they would change the hostel every year. And so we would go to one hostel and then raid the next hostel.

Prof. Arun Menon: Any fond memories in that period of the teachers that you had?

Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: See, actually, the campus was small then, you know, we had 255 students every year, 5,200 students, including postgraduates, about 1,500 students.

The campus was small, and so the student-faculty ratio was fairly good.

And NCC was a great thing in those days. NCC was compulsory.

Consequently, we all went on, and the officer in charge of NCC in Chennai had a great fascination for IIT.

So we IIT students were treated very nicely in the NCC national parade and things like that.

And so the NCC also, in the evenings, we occupy up two days a week; we had NCC together.

And like that, you know, we were kept tight.

Prof. Arun Menon: The numbers being small.. Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: We got to know the faculty well.

And I think if I chose to become a chosen academic career, it is the teachers that I had here.

Prof. Arun Menon: And with the numbers being small, your interactions with people like the director and the registrar, was it more

Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: At that time, registrar was an IAS officer called Natarajan.

And he was very popular among students.

And so he would come to the hostel, and we used to interact quite a bit with him.

And there was a deputy director by his name, Sampath. And he was very pro-student friendly.

So all our students, all our student gripes and things like that, we used to express them to him, through him to the director.

The director is usually not so easily approachable. Prof. Arun Menon: Right.

Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: But the deputy director and I and the directors were opposed.

Prof. Arun Menon: In '63, the director was ... Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: Sengupto.

Prof. Arun Menon: Sengupto was still the director. Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: Towards the end, I think, '68 is when, you know (incomprehensive speech) Prof. Arun Menon: He finished his term, he finished his term.

And who was the head of the Department of Civil Engineering at that time?

Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: P. C. Verghese. In those days, the headship did not rotate.

Prof. Arun Menon: Yes. Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: So, the head was appointed, you know, he would occupy the post for years to come.

So, he was the head of the department all through my five years of work, I think.

He did not teach any courses for us. He taught postgraduate courses.

But he has taught some lectures in undergraduate courses for me.

He's a good teacher. He used to do... Prof. Arun Menon: Any memories of... Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: He was also... He was also a Gymkhana president.

He was in charge of, to do Gymkhana.

So he was pretty tough on students.

He had to maintain that student discipline.

So he was known to be a tough faculty.

But very, you know, by say, with empathy, you know, he does with empathy.

Prof. Arun Menon: So, between the academic

gym that you were trying, the Saturday movie and YMCA, what else kept you occupied?

Litsoc or.. Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: See, we did not have a literary programme.

We usually have one once a year, during the inter-80 meet

we also used to have cultural programs.

Prof. Arun Menon: Right. Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: During the daytime, the meets would be there.

And the evening cultural programs would be there. In those days, we had a very good band called Beat-X that I read in my draft.

And an excellent band.

And in fact, they used to win most of the competitions in the city, they used to win.

Prof. Arun Menon: What did you say the name was? Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: Beat-X. Prof. Arun Menon: Beat-X

Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: They were called B-Tex. Prof. Arun Menon: So looking back, those five years just flew past.

Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: Flew past and were probably the best years of my life.

You know, in terms of individual development, in terms of academic development, I would say the best years were the PhD.

In terms of my personal development, those five years of IIT Madras were the most valuable ones.

And I would not trade it for anything else. Prof. Arun Menon: So, when you finished, the 1968 Convocation was a special Convocation.

Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: That was a special convocation. Prof. Arun Menon: And then you were able to attend the convocation, or were you already...? Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: I did attend the convocation.

In those days, the convocation took place well before we had to leave for your life.

And then I did not go to the US immediately.

I did one year of... one semester of MTech also here as well.

Because I did not get financial assistance.

So I joined MTech here.

I did one semester of MTech.

And in January, I got a free tuition waiver and I went for my MS to study (Incomprehensive).

But we all stayed here for Convocation. Most of us would attend Convocation simply because we had time to go to US also after attending Convocation.

It was a great gala and I went.

Prof. Arun Menon: So any any, you know, it was a rare event because it was a father-son combination, who had signed the degree.

Did you take note of that then, or is it something that you don't.. Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: We didn't even, we had very little interaction with the director.

Directors would come once in a while and address us, but you know, not that kind of interaction.

But Sampath, yes, you know, he would, you know.. Prof. Arun Menon: He was the deputy director.

Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: And in fact, he even wrote a commendation letter for me for admission to our, even though he had not taken any course for me.

Prof. Arun Menon: Right. So, in that type of relationship. So, the MTech that you had undertaken was MTech in.. Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: Structures. Prof. Arun Menon: Structural Engineering.

So, how did you identify structures as..

Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: I think structure was always a mathematically oriented subject.

Most of us were mathematically strong.

And consequently, structures was very attractive to us.

And probably job potential was also greater in structures than in other areas of civil engineering.

Prof. Arun Menon: Right. Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: And IIT Madras also had a very strong success group.

See, I like today, today, if we take civil engineering department, IIT Madras.

It's across the board and all the disciplines are very strong.

We have a strong faculty. But those days, IIT Madras structures had a very strong faculty.

All the other divisions had only one or two or three faculty members.

And that is probably another reason why this structures.. Prof. Arun Menon: Prominent.

It was really prominent in time. And so when you completed in 1968, the structures building was going to start... Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: It was started after the 1970s.

Yeah, after the... After I left, it started.

In fact, other friends in a classmate of mine, in MTech, who stayed back, they helped to build structures lab.

We helped to build this swimming pool.

As NCC cadet, one of the activities of NCC was to go and build the swimming pool.

So we had pour concrete. Prof. Arun Menon: So mixing and pour concrete?

Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: Yes. Yes, we had done that.

Prof. Arun Menon: So that's a facility that's still in use and wonderful.

So structural engineering as a specialization is one, owing to the teachers that you had and the prominence of the subject at that time.

So where was structural engineering hosted?

Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: In BSB.

We didn't, we had the, we had very small labs of concrete lab and things like that.

And some testing facility, minimal facility.

And the research was still not well established completely.

There were probably one or two research scholars in the department in the department.

Prof. Arun Menon: From the teachers of those times, was there something unique in terms of how they taught that that really stayed with you?

Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: See, I think they cared for us.

In fact, Professor Rao is one of the five teachers whom I had.

As a student, I have interacted with him.

After coming back and joining as a faculty, I interacted with him.

One other thing he used to say is that when you were a student, I knew

that when you graduate, you will all go and practice structural engineering.

So I have had great motivation to teach you.

But today when I go to class, I know most of my class students are not going to be doing structural engineering.

I start wondering why I'm teaching structural engineering.

So I think there is a change in the attitude of the faculty itself towards teaching between the time I was a student here and when I became a faculty member here.

But even when I joined,

There was still a large number of them who went into civil engineering and continued to be in civil engineering, either in postgraduate studies or work.

It is, I think, after the 90s, where it became even greater, that very few people continue to remain in the engineering program than there were then.

Prof. Arun Menon: So in your batch of 1968, the 63-68, how many of you continued in civil engineering?

Is that because we think the numbers are drastically different today, but is that real, is that?

Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: I would say that at least 50% of the merits is scaling.

Prof. Arun Menon: And that was a batch of civil engineering class of.. Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: 40 students.

Prof. Arun Menon: So today, probably 20 people stay back at civil engineering.

The numbers are almost the same.

So we were 125, and now we are at 110 or so.

Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: Yeah, so many people.

So it's kind of unfortunate that they get that great education, but the country is not able to use them.

I don't blame the students. Prof. Arun Menon: And the need is there. Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: Yeah, and the need is there.

But, you know, somehow the provision is not catching them, you know, both in terms of the interest that they can display and the salary package that they get at that they give.

Both of them are necessary, I think.

And then the country is losing because of that. Prof. Arun Menon: Yeah. It's a very tricky situation that we are in.

Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: In fact, before I retired, I was talking to my colleagues.

The country is spending nearly half its budget on infrastructure every year.

And major infrastructure is civil engineering.

And if we take a look at the type of people who manage the project,

they didn't have the background to be able to manage that project.

So we had infrastructure, we spent the money, but we didn't get the infrastructure for the money that we are spending because we were not having good engineers to engineer these projects.

And I was telling that we have got designed to the idea that IIT students are not going to go to civil engineering.

But at least we should think in terms of how we can get the other civil engineering students to be able to

meet the contained industry demand. And see, most of us learn probably 20, 30 courses in civil engineering.

But when you go to practice, you practice hardly two or three subjects that are relevant.

The rest of them depend on the specialization we do in the industry.

The rest of them may not be relevant. So as a way of school finishing, if they take one summer and train them in these higher levels of, you know, those two or three subjects, maybe the industry will be benefited.

So if something that we even contemplated joining with industry and having a cool finishing, and then we have the middle like NPTEL, not teach only in IIT, such cool finishing courses can be in all engineering colleges.

You know.. Prof. Arun Menon: As a wider reach. Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: So the industry will get good engineers.

Prof. Arun Menon: So currently we do have this option where students can spend a whole semester

out in the industry. We used to have summer training programmes which are limited to two months.

But a whole semester makes sense because you will really get very well trained.

So that's something that the 2024 curriculum has..

Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: Is it making a difference?

Prof. Arun Menon: The number of takers for it is only now we will start seeing because the 24 curriculum started implementing it.

So the first batch that's going into the third year is just now.

So we hope this has some sort of an impact.

So let me now move on to your, the second phase, the academic phase, which is you going away to the US,

working there for a while and in structural engineering.

What motivated you to go to the US for specialization in the first place?

Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: That's also strange. Some of my classmates were going in a bus to go to the US consulate office.

They saw me walking, they said, get into the bus, I got into the bus.

So I also went, got the application and started applying.

So it's all, you know, there are no planning. It just happened.

No, I never had an idea that I would go to the US. My classmates were doing it so I also did that.

Prof. Arun Menon: And so there was no resistance from home when you said, I have applied in him now?

Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: No, actually there was no resistance.

Although my mother had second thoughts about my going to the US.

Prof. Arun Menon: And your brother was... Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: Brother was here.

He was here. And he did not pursue postgraduate studies.

I was more academically oriented.

Well as he is a more industry oriented. Prof. Arun Menon: So how easy was it to go to the US in that period?

Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: In that period, very easy. The only thing is... We all had to show that we had enough money to meet our expenses.

So, my classmate had, a much more rich person.

He had put it in his bank account to show that he had money.

After that, he transferred that money to my bank account, and I showed that I had money.

Prof. Arun Menon: This is on record. Your VISA could be revoked.

Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: So I think, you know, I think, you know, how close we were, you know, we could do all those things, you know, trusted each other so much.

You know, and you know, you see, the thing is, the US at that time felt, we felt that they wanted us to come back.

But when you go back, you go there, you realize that that is not there.

It's not the point. Prof. Arun Menon: It's not the point. They were training you for their country.

Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: But I did not get financial assistance.

Prof. Arun Menon: You didn't get it, and that's why you deferred for one semester.

Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: Or at the end of the semester, I see it's got a tuition waiver.

So then I could take one semester's money and go.

After that, I took a summer job and started learning, and then there were expenses.

In fact, my classmates had already gone there and wrote me a letter saying, "Come here, you will find a way of taking care of yourself."

So I showed the letter to my father and convinced him that I would go.

Prof. Arun Menon: That's wonderful.

So, you did your MS and PhD. MS and PhD.

Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: MS in SUNY Buffalo. Prof. Arun Menon: Yes.

Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: And then went on to do PhD at Stanford.

Prof. Arun Menon: Yes. Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: After doing one semester at Stanford, I was of seven opinions as to whether I was becoming a professional student.

Prof. Arun Menon: Okay. Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: So I wanted, I was unsure that, you know, I'm pursuing a PhD because I want to pursue a PhD.

Or it's just that I'm doing that automatically. So I went to, after one semester of PhD at Stanford, and also the Stanford PhD program was in the library area.

And reliability was, no, I wasn't sure.

I always wanted to come back to India. Prof. Arun Menon: Right. Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: And I was not sure reliability would be an area which would be needed in India, you know, for research and things like that.

So that's another reason why I quit, worked in industry for one and a half years during that time.

Prof. Arun Menon: So you would keep your admission and take the break?

Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: Yeah. In those days, the US was not very strict in those days.

So for having completed my MS, I could get one and a half years of work permit and then work outside and worked outside.

And that one and a half years convinced me, I wanted to be in academia.

And so I went back to Cornell because Cornell was, I could get a PhD in steel structures, which I knew that is required in India.

So I went to Cornell, finished my PhD in Cornell, and then came by.

Prof. Arun Menon: So you gave up your admission to Stanford.

Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: Discontinued. In fact, I later got admission or a recommendation from the faculty of Stanford to join Cornell.

Prof. Arun Menon: That's very interesting.

So, what defined your PhD years?

How did it change you? Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: No, I think, you know, in my experience, I tell my research scholars, peace time is the best time that you have.

Because, you know, that is the time you can think of the problem, you can sleep on it, eat it, drink it, leave it, and, you know, it grows on you.

And then a PhD is one thing that, for example, in a PhD, the courses that I did, I would read papers in the courses that I did, not the syllabus.

And then we could write papers out of the course projects.

And that's the level at which we could operate in a PhD.

And not all of us did, but some of us did, depending upon your motivation.

That gave me the option to do that. And then, another thing is,

training at IIT makes you capable of meeting any demands and any academic matter.

I felt that any, you know, both my MS and PhD were cakewalks.

And they were not, you know, as demanding as IIT was.

But I'm not saying that they were not worth it because they're different, you know, they, you know,

they make you individually work.

So, you know, here teachers take the responsibility for you to learn.

Whereas, there you take the responsibility for you to learn.

That's the difference I found between my education in IIT Madras and my education in the US.

And, you know, the..

The other thing is the research scholars from all over the world.

So you get to meet a different set of people, their expectations, and their cultural differences.

You learn to appreciate that better. So it's also a personal growing experience.

But that academic experience, after finishing a PhD, you get in the academic, you have other responsibilities, teaching, research, administration, and things like that.

Whereas, during a PhD, you can concentrate your time.

So that's an experience that I would not give up.

Prof. Arun Menon: The luxury of focusing on one problem and forgetting about the rest of the world, I think one would never have that.

Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: Never in life.

Prof. Arun Menon: And so a stint in the industry before you started your PhD.

And did you go back to the industry? Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: After I finished my PhD, I went to academia immediately.

Prof. Arun Menon: Yes. Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: I started teaching at the University of Kentucky.

I taught there for four years, I think.

Four years... I taught there for three years.

And at the end of three years, I decided that I wanted to come back to India.

I started applying. Academic places. In those days were very difficult to get in academics in IITs.

You know, I wanted to be in IIT. It was very difficult to get into academics in IITs.

So, I also applied to industry.

Two or three industries said that, you know, come and come and we would like to talk to you.

I am here. I also got a job with an industry, you know, from on the basis of publication.

Prof. Arun Menon: Okay. Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: So, I had to decide what I wanted to do. So, I decided I would come and spend interviews with all the companies.

Prof. Arun Menon: Okay. Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: And see what to do.

When I came, they also had an interview at the IIT Madras.

So they asked, "What were you attending the interview for?" So I applied, but did not get a call.

But since I was here, they asked me to attend the interview.

I attended the interview. I also attended the interview in IISC Bangalore.

IISC Bangalore, faculty, Head of the Department said since you're applying at IIT Madras I am going to be on the committee for interviewing at IIT Madras so

I will see you there. So, you know, I interviewed in IIT Madras.

After that, after a month or so, I got to learn that I got a job at IIT Madras.

But by the time, I had already told the university,

that I am leaving because I wanted to give them sufficient time so they could, at the Kentucky, so that they can get a faculty in my place.

So I went back and resigned from Kentucky, and I had one year; I wanted to—I had a house and things like that—I had to wind up.

So I had-took one year to wind up.

And so, during that one year, I worked again in the industry, in the design office in Houston, Texas.

Prof. Arun Menon: So today, everything happens electronically.

You send your application; you upload your application.

You're talking of a time when you'd have to send the application and wait for the rest of (Incomprehensive speech).

Prof. Arun Menon: In fact, that statement used to be, you apply, you never got a reply.

See, because I don't blame, because the number of positions were limited.

And there were already faculty members who had done their, they have done joint as a,

MS and did their PhD here.

In fact, when I became an assistant professor, there were faculty members who were teaching me who also became assistant professors.

That is the level of stagnation for them to be able to entertain applicants from outside.

But I think we have changed a lot. And today we are proactively looking for people from all over the world.

Prof. Arun Menon: Yes. And I think faculty selection is a continuous process.

Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: And I think we are not reactive.

We are proactive. Prof. Arun Menon: We are proactive. We are proactive.

Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: I think that's important. Prof. Arun Menon: Yes.

So that brings me to one question.

You just mentioned that. So when you joined, that was 1980.

Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: 1980. Prof. Arun Menon: And did you have, did you have,

Of course, there were some colleagues who were your teachers earlier.

How was that? I think it was experience.

Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: No, one other thing that I was very careful about is, as it is, there will be a question of carrying a chip on the shoulder

because I was educated in the US because there were not very many people who had been educated outside the country and came back to join you.

And as a result, I was one of the very few people in the Institute itself, you know, who were coming back.

So, you could be misconstrued to be carrying a chip on your shoulder.

So, I was very careful in not appearing to be doing that, consciously doing that.

And, no, but the Civil Engineering Department has always been very open, very open.

So even though I was a young faculty, they treated me very well.

They never expected me, you know, when I wrote a paper, there was no question of my having to write the paper with another professor as the co-author.

That was the type of expectations were never there.

So, you know, you were able to work independently, you know, earn them.

Very nice. I was lucky.

I don't think it is also true of all the departments in the Institute.

Because it was one of the culture of the civil engineering department. They treated that young faculty nicely.

Prof. Arun Menon: And I think that's something that makes us different and we are really proud of it and it's important.

So some of your teachers would have become your colleagues.

And that was a nice experience? Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: And in fact, you see, I was also put on some of the committees in making department decisions as a faculty and faculty.

And very many people, very many other colleagues who joined IIT along with me used to say, how can you talk in such meetings and things.

But simply in the department, I always felt free to talk about my mind.

And what I talked inside the meeting never went outside to hurt me.

I think that's the type of culture that we had. We did not hold any grudge against each other.

We all worked for the well-being of the department.

And it worked very nicely. Prof. Arun Menon: I think we continue to hold dear those ethos even today.

And I think that's why we are quite a close-knit, though big, department.

60s to the 80s, when you came back in the 80s, how had IIT changed?

Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: Structures lab was there. Prof. Arun Menon: Structures lab was there.

Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: You know, it's very excellent. One of the best people in the world at that time.

You know, maybe, you know, one of the best.

I didn't know such a day. One of the best. You know, as a result,

Experimental work could be nicely done, you know, so there was no limitation.

There was no limitation. So, a teaching, undergraduate teaching institution in the sixties had become a postgraduate institution also.

I'm not saying only a postgraduate institution; it's undergraduate and postgraduate together, you know.

It is there. We had a sufficient number of MTech students to teach, and we had, you know, a reasonable strength of a research scholars to work with.

And one of the other thing that I found difficult was to get funded research.

So in those days, when I came and joined and talked to my colleagues about funded research, they said that it's very difficult to get funded research in civil engineering.

So my area was in buckling.

I moved on to do buckling-oriented research using aeronautical structures, aeronautical research, and developing both had funding.

So I would apply for funding in buckling studies in composites and things like that.

And that way I could get some funded research to be able to support additional students for my research purposes.

You know, that was not very common in the departments at IIT.

You know, to go and get funded research was not very common.

The training in the US helped me to be able to apply for funding and get funding.

There are a few faculty members who already had funding, but few.

Unlike today, you know, I see my colleagues who come after first is they get funding research.

You know, so we are again moved a long way from where it was.

And so it was a teaching, both teaching and research institution in the 80s.

And I think today it's become more a research institution than a teaching institution.

I don't think we pay as much importance to our other education today as we do for post-culture and research.

Prof. Arun Menon: Although while teaching still occupies a significant portion of our time and focus,

the research component is a really major component.

Driving. Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: And from what I talked to my, you know, talked to the faculty today, they're not as driven by undergraduate education as we were.

You know, as my teachers were and we were. I think undergraduate education was very important in those days.

But it doesn't take away as important a space in the faculty's time today.

Prof. Arun Menon: It's that question again. If I'm sure that the person that I'm teaching is going to be in the domain, that motivates you.

So it's a cycle. Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: That's the thing.

Prof. Arun Menon: So just coming to structural engineering.

So structural engineering as a postgraduate program was already here in your undergraduate days.

When you came back, there was a marked difference in terms of how the infrastructure for structural engineering was.

So you've seen structural engineering at IIT Madras in its inception, initial years, and growth.

How would you define the history of structural engineering at IT Madras?

Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: Structural engineering kept pace with changes.

I think that's probably the thing I should say.

See, first, for example, earlier structural engineering was brick and mortar structural engineering.

You know, we would hunt them. But then we did not

Confinement to bring a potter. Then we got numerical pivot specialists, and we grew like that.

Then we got people in reliability, and we grew like that.

Then we got you, we grew like that. So I think that's actually really defined itself fairly broadly to be able to take care of the

structural engineering spectrum of activities in the area of structural engineering.

I think that's one other thing. For example, we had a static testing list, then with a dynamic testing facility.

Like that, it has continued to grow because we were able to get faculty who were growth oriented.

So change and being able to keep pace with changes there.

And I think the lab allowed the youngsters to flourish, and they brought the facility, I think, you know.

Prof. Arun Menon: A very interesting perspective on the core of the core ethos of structural engineering is really captured that.

And probably that's what's making it unique and lasting.

Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: So today if you take any faculty of structural engineering, the diversity of their backgrounds is unbelievable.

And that is why that diversity brings strength to the department and the division.

Prof. Arun Menon: So, your academic career continues at IIT Madras, from the 80s to the new millennium, as a teacher in those years.

What was your guiding principle? Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: Change.

In the earlier stages, I used to be very, very demanding, honestly, very, extremely demanding.

I think the question paper that I set as soon as I joined, you know, which was to be given to students later in my thing, they would not have been able to answer, you know, very demanding.

But the students rose up to that. But then, see, my attitude also changed.

I felt that in the early stages, it was my responsibility for students to learn.

But later I changed; I said that it is the responsibility of students to learn.

I am a facilitator. I will facilitate the students' learning, but I will not take the responsibility that they learn.

They have to take responsibility because only then are they motivated.

If I take the responsibility, their motivation will be less.

See, for example, I'll just give you an example of why.

We had in the Shaastra, we had the spirit of the engineering programme, you know, one other thing.

The first Shaastra, the first spirit of the engineering program, the student built a paper bridge.

I don't know whether you have heard that. No, using only paper, newspaper, and rope, they built a bridge.

And they, the student group had civil engineering, computer science, and mechanical engineering students, and all the students worked together in building the bridge.

They will come and work in the success lab, testing their paper and things like that until two o'clock in the morning and things like that.

They took responsibility for their learning. They take responsibility for it.

And I think that's the way education ought to be. And so I think instead we should get the students excited and then they will learn.

And that is how I changed toward the later portion of my teaching.

I said that my responsibilities exceed the total number.

They have the responsibility to learn this.

Prof. Arun Menon: I have seen some of your question papers on mechanics of materials.

And I relate to what you're saying.

But I didn't know we used to run a course in the early 2000s, even up to 2017 or 2018, called..

It was ID 1100, which was an interdisciplinary concepts, it was a design course, but interdisciplinary.

And so we would have teams.

It was about 880 students across the department.

I mean across the department. So you see, I could relate to that Shaastra event that you are talking about.

The genesis of this course? Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: No, that's also even hard to place before this course.

Prof. Arun Menon: Before this course, that's right. Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: You know, we felt that the ID110 we started simply because we felt that the students come for engineering.

Prof. Arun Menon: Yes. Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: But the whole of first year they don't learn any engineering.

Prof. Arun Menon: Correct. Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: And this is more demotivating.

So, how to demotivate them? We, a group of faculty members from various departments, talked about it.

Then we said we would float an engineering design where there are no equations, but engineering principles will be used to propose a purpose of design.

And all the processes involved in design will be discussed in class.

Through, you know, we took faculty from various disciplines and taught engineering design purely as a design process, as a concept, not with the equations and things like that.

Prof. Arun Menon: And it was a beautiful course. Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: It was a beautiful course.

But again, one of those courses which was disappointing.

We went through that course for two years.

And then in the third year, we asked our freshers, you should have talked to the seniors, what did they have to say about this course?

They just told, apparently, seniors told them, it's a (Incomprehensive speech) course.

You just, you know, do a few things, you'll get a good grade, you know, max it and get out of it.

And the whole process of engineering design was lost in them.

This is one of the things I kept telling, I used to keep telling.

One of the reasons why undergraduate students are not as excited as they ought to be is that seniors spoil them.

So one of the ways of getting back into good engineering undergraduate education is, you flush out for four years, don't have undergraduate students.

Start after four years, fresh students, there are no seniors to advise students, how the education has.

I think the seniors are to be told they are doing a disservice to the juniors by advising them like this.

Prof. Arun Menon: I was associated with the ID 1100 course for almost five or six years.

I think as teachers, we were excited about the course, but we did have students who.

Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: There are a lot of students in (Incomprehensive speech)

There are a lot of students who will be, you know, but what we want is lots of percentages to be, you know.

Prof. Arun Menon: Critical mass, a critical mass.

So this is the change in principles in terms of how you viewed teaching.

It is very interesting, as you moved into... Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: I think we all do that.

We all change, right? Prof. Arun Menon: As people. Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: Because the times change.

And because students change, you know. In fact, this is one of the things students used to ask me: you are teaching the same subject year after year after year.

You are not getting bored. I tell them, yes, I am teaching the same teacher, but not the same student.

The students are different every year, so I have to change my teaching to the students who will respond.

But I think if the IIT is a good place to teach, you know, all said and done students want to learn, you know, most of all of them.

There are classes where I'll go and then they will not be able to answer the questions and what I had taught them the day before.

I will be very disappointed. I'll tell them, if you are not doing your homework, then I'm not going to teach.

So, you tell me when you are ready, I will come back to teach.

Otherwise, I am going to my room, I went to my room.

After a day or two, students will come back and talk to me.

And, sir, please come. We would like to have the class.

We will perform. So, that you can't do anywhere else.

In IITs you can do and get away with it. Prof. Arun Menon: Worse even today.

Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: No, in fact then one of the thing I tell my students, teaching is a good profession, because it is the only profession where

your customer being able to evaluate you, your evaluate your customer.

Students our customers will evaluate you rather than customers evaluate you.

Prof. Arun Menon: That's a very different perspective of what teachers do.

So as you were teaching at IIT Madras, as a faculty member, you were meant to wear so many hats.

And you were asked to do it.

Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: No, I agree. This is one of the things I used to say. When I was teaching at Kentucky, I would not have met a head of the department once a year.

I should have met the Dean once a year.

The Dean is the Dean of engineering once a year. He does the department once a semester.

That's about the frequency at which the administrative workloads are there.

You know, there was very little administrative work.

Whereas here I think our administrative load is very high.

And that is kind of unfortunate.

And in fact, this is one of the things I also found- faculty members who are good at teaching and research

they are normally drawn into administration also, because they will perform.

And as a result, they may have two things.

One, they may be poor administrators, because a good faculty member is not necessarily good at administration.

The second thing is that it is also affects the teaching and research.

But at the same token, I used to talk to the directors, that IOT should find a way of recognizing people, other than giving them a Dean's position.

There have to be some positions, like if you go to an academic institution these days, then people may not know the president's name.

But they will know the Nobel Laureates who are in the campus, their names, or the outstanding faculty, their names will be known because they are the recognition that's given to the outstanding faculty.

And I think it's necessary to find a way of

rewarding faculty for being good faculty rather than giving them a Dean's position as a way of rewarding the faculty.

You know, is it something that I used to tell me, tell me, you know, Dean and directors whom I know.

I think that is one way to get a good academic to be an academic and be happy about being an academic.

Prof. Arun Menon: So when you took on administrative roles, there was, of course, as a warden, and then Chairman of Continuing Education, Dean ICSR, Head of the Department of Civil Engineering.

Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: (Incomprehensive speech) Wardens were a necessity, because I came to India to be with my parents.

And I didn't have a place to stay properly.

I got only a one-bedroom flat. That also was moving from place to place.

For taking (Incomprehensive speech) gave me a two-bedroom flat.

So that was the motivation for me to become a warden.

And it was also staying because I was warden, and I was the first one of the girls' hostel.

Prof. Arun Menon: Oh really? Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: I was made a warden of the girls' hostel with understanding.

You know they didn't see they... They didn't have... There were not many very many female faculties to start with.

And to that faculty and female faculty members had home to run, this academic load and things like that.

In addition, being a warden was very, very difficult...

to handle. So, when Natarajan asked me whether I would be a warden of Sarayu hostel, I took it because I got a room, and Natarajan gave it to me because my wife would take care of the hostel, unofficially.

So that's why I became a warden. Prof. Arun Menon: Oh, interesting, synergistic, yeah.

Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: That's why I became a warden. But since then, you know, once you do one administrative position, well, then you are doomed with other administrative positions.

Prof. Arun Menon: But you are able to strike a balance between... Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: Yes and no, yes and no.

For example, as a dean of administration, I said sadly, I wanted to leave after three years.

Three years, one year. Two plus one or two plus one.

So, two years after two years, I wanted to leave. And because my research student was being affected, and Ananth convinced me to stay one more year, it's usually either you like me, don't like me or I don't like you, then it's two years, otherwise it's three years.

So, I went through three years, but I think my research scholars suffered because of that.

It's basically bandwidth, how much time you have in a day.

Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: And then, oh, there is one other reason why, in fact, at that time I searched, now it's implemented.

I just said, why don't you put a deputy dean?

So that, but Monday and things, signing and paper and things like that, which you don't really exercise your mind, you can have that done.

And then your dean has to concentrate only on the planning and things like that, you know, for the future.

Prof. Arun Menon: That would have taken up a lot of your time from head of CC2, the NICSR, the head of the department.

In fact, when I was doing my MTech, you were the head of the department, 2000, 2001.

And then, in your academics, you decided to call it a day in 2010.

What? Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: No, actually, actually,

Academically I had an excellent time.

I didn't quit because I was disappointed in academics.

Two or three things, one is just going back to that administrative post.

One of the things that motivated me to go into administration is to find that

I found people whom I did not expect to perform administratively perform excellently and making a difference, ahead of me.

So, I felt that in these positions, you can make a difference to this institute.

You know, one of the things is, in the US, I always felt like a second-class citizen, you know, even when I was teaching, I would not go out of my way to express my opinion and then, you know, make my vote

opinion known. But in IITs, this is my institution.

This is my institution. I want this institution to perform well.

And if I can contribute, I should. This is the attitude that made me to take the responsibility that I did.

And for example, the department helped me to accomplish anything that we wanted to do.

During the year that I was there, you may remember, we had a meeting with undergraduate students and post with MTech students to understand what is driving them, what is not driving them.

And then we had weekend retreats. We had retreats with the faculty where we discussed these issues.

Even today, faculty members feel that it made a difference to all of us as a department that we had such retreats and such proactive ones.

And the institute enabled us to do those types of things.

So it gives you the freedom to be able to, even when you take administrative positions, you have the freedom to be able to implement the thing that I wanted.

Prof. Arun Menon: I think there's that constant, you constantly strive for excellence and the system allows you to do that.

Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: I think that is important and IIT has been doing well.

Simply because they have been allowed to do that.

If you lose this one, in fact, you know, this is the thing that I tell my colleague, we have to police ourselves also.

If you find something wrong going, we have to stand up and correct it.

If we don't correct it, somebody else will from outside will correct it.

And then we will lose our freedom. The moment we do not correct ourselves, we will lose our freedom.

So, if we find something wrong happening, it is our responsibility to correct it as an institution.

And we can in order to continue to preserve our freedom.

And I think freedom is the one we say enabled IITs to perform as well as they have.

Prof. Arun Menon: So, that brings me to something that is linked to your journey as well.

The student as a student here and then higher education in the US and academic in the US and then came back to IIT Madras 30 years as an academic in IIT Madras.

In 2001, CEA, Civil Engineering Association had this annual event called the Big Fight.

And in 2001, the theme was world class education, IIT Madras, question.

And I was on the student team.

And Professor Kalyanraman was in the faculty team when I uh..

Big fight used to happen in the ICSR auditorium, and it was a big deal.

Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: This is another thing, you know, in the civil engineering association.

Prof. V. Kalyanaraman:n Students and faculty will debate each other, you know.

Prof. Arun Menon: It was a wonderful time.

A wonderful experience. Of course, the student team, I think there were four or five of us.

There was one dual degree student, a B-Tech dual degree student, four of us and then four faculty members.

Of course, we were on the side that said, no, this is not world-class education.

Today I am a faculty member here and I recognize why.

What are your thoughts on this? This is a world class education.

Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: I think my opinion on that is the fact that we are today.

The result is not important. I think the result is secondary.

The fact is that we can sit together and discuss and understand, say, or what we feel.

And then on the basis of it, come out better for this.

You know, both as faculty and the students. I think that's the important thing.

And these types of big fights enable us to do this type of... I previously, after we remembered the topic was that the students who leave the IITs and leave the country and go to the US

or what is a very strong word, or deserting them or something like that.

We discussed it. There are points on both sides.

And the fact that you talk about it and then from that you internalize what is important is the important thing.

Prof. Arun Menon: And you learn, I mean the messages that come out in such fora remain with you forever.

And I think that's beautiful. So that's IIT, I think that's something we deserve.

Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: More than IIT, that's civil engineering. But I think what I'm saying is, the civil engineering department had the culture.

I'm not saying that, you know, it's across all the departments.

There are other departments which have sent them somewhere else.

I'm not saying that. No, I'm not. The civil engineering department had this type of strength to be able to

to be able to welcome people, make them perform, help them to perform.

And then, you know, question ourselves all the time.

I think that's important. Prof. Arun Menon: As you were leaving the institute as a faculty member, you had this land to kitchen...

Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: You asked me the question. I'll come back to that. I saw it.

Prof. Arun Menon: Yes, please, please. Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: See, at the time I was 9, 2010, retirement age was 1962.

62 years. So I was planning what I was going to do after 62.

My contention was that I had done enough in the area of technology, and my contention is also that we in IITs are contributing mostly to the urban population.

Most of our efforts go to teaching the urban population.

Because most of our students are urban-biased, the urban population.

Most of the problems we solve are problems of the urban population.

And there is very little of what we do that is impacting their rural population.

So I said that after retire, I don't need money and I will go and work in rural areas.

So this is something that I had planned well before I was retirement.

As I was going to retire, they changed it to 65.

So I was in a dilemma whether I should continue with the down till 65 or leave at 62.

And so, I said that maybe at 65, I may not have the energy that I have at 62.

And so, 62 I have worked. And I was not unhappy with IIT to leave.

I was still, my wife was even surprised.

You are working all these years suddenly, one night, one night, you were coming and telling me that you are leaving IIT.

How did you decide that? It is not because, you know, I had finished with my research scholars, all the research scholars' work was over.

Nothing was pending. This is a good time to be able to switch the reason.

But you know, even to this day, anytime I have an opportunity to come and talk to my scholars, research scholars and faculty, I do that because I enjoy doing that.

Prof. Arun Menon: You cherish that. Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: Yes. Prof. Arun Menon: So, thank you for that perspective.

So, again, as you entered in 1963 versus when you left in 2010, how had this institution transformed?

Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: It had become a established excellent infrastructure.

I think over the years, at the same time ensured that the campus environment is present.

I think that's a good combination.

The institute had become more of a research institution.

The faculty members who were coming to join us had excellent backgrounds in research.

And even the other day I was mentioning that if I had to apply for an associate professor position

today, I would have had a difficult time qualifying for that because the expectations for the faculty have increased.

But then it should. I think if we want as an institution to grow, it has to grow.

And for example, in the 80s and 90s, my research scholars had to stand in line for an hour to get one hour of computer time in the computer center.

But today, that power is available for each computer center 24 hours of the day.

So, the infrastructure has to go to be able to facilitate faculty members to perform at a higher level.

And that's the important thing. That is a big, that is a big change.

I think the one thing that I'm not very happy about is the amount of pressure that the faculty has.

I think the pressure seems to be much too high.

The faculty members' responsibility is not only to teach and do research, but also

to create future citizens.

I think we don't realize that when we are faculty members, but subsequently when the students come and tell me, sir, you said that in class and that made a difference to me.

You feel shy and you feel shy, you know, you feel shocked.

And I know shocked because what you say in a passing phase, making so much of a difference to the

You know, life is the younger generation, you know.

So that is important. I think that you define certain values to your students when you spend time with them.

Today, with the type of load that you have, you may not be able to spend that kind of a time.

And that is important for the faculty to do, to be able to do that.

You know, to have to show, you know, that you care, you know, the students, you know, the students,

feel that they are a part of you, you feel that.

In fact, that is one of the things that has changed over a period of time, I think.

When I was a student, when I gave a student, we all had ownership of the institute.

We as students felt that we own the institute.

You know, then we as faculty members felt that we own the institute.

But today I do not know how much ownership the students have of the institute.

I think that's sad because that shows that we have become a little impersonal.

Prof. Arun Menon: That was wonderful discussing your journey.

What would your advice or words for a student of engineering, a student of civil engineering today, a faculty member of

civil engineering today, and to anyone who has had this great fortune to engage with an institution like IIT Madras be?

Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: I don't know whether we all say things which we feel, but maybe it may be right or wrong.

But to the students, see, the important thing is not money.

I mean, life, I think at some stage we realize money is not important, but how you get up in the morning and look forward to the rest of the day's life of yours is important.

And I think that, you know, some of my students who have gone on to become civil engineers and gone on to do IT companies.

And then I said that they came to the company and we started saying that we are doing very mundane things.

Prof. Arun Menon: Right. Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: Then I tell them, imagine you somebody did civil engineering for six months, learnt some civil engineering subjects for six months.

At what level do you think they can operate? Will they be able to operate at the level that you are able to operate?

Obviously they cannot. And similarly, when you go to the IT industry, you will not be able to operate at a level of a computer science graduate.

You have chosen to do that.

So you cannot complain that you're not, you know, you're not having an exciting time now.

But, you know, that is, that is important.

I think to say that this money is enough for me, I'm not saying that you should not attract more money, but the industry has to find a way to do that

to give the remuneration. But I think personally, you should be motivated by what kind of life you can lead as a student, you know, as you when, when you go out.

And I think, when you are a professional, the type of satisfaction that you get in being a professional worker, you cannot get anywhere else.

You know, the other day, one of the videos saw a young student has built a great bridge and she says that I built a bridge.

It's not that she built a bridge, but she has the kind of, you know, she has the ownership of having built a bridge.

You know, it's like that, you know, you know, the monument that you build will stand

beyond you, you know, and that is your contribution to this society.

And the code that you write may not even see another year.

And I think, I'm not, I'm not decrying computer science.

Computer science has a role to play.

But I think all of us becoming computer science, we are in the process of neglecting what we are trained for, what we are capable of doing.

So to my, to the students, I will say, I think you should pursue what you enjoy.

Not what, what gives you good money, okay?

And so, you look for, look to your life, you know, how you are living your life, you know, professionally.

And I think, enjoy an area, enjoy. If you go to computer, enjoy, enjoy a computer, that's fine.

But then, you shouldn't be complaining that you're working in a very mundane thing.

In fact, when these students, I talked to the head of the computer, told them that why are you not taking my students and then giving them this type of job.

He said, "Please ask him to come and talk to me. I will find something more interesting to do."

But by the time these boys had gone to the US and were doing miserable things in the US, they were happy.

That's a different issue. But anyway, that's one.

The second thing is, I think it's changed now, that, you know, US is a good place to live.

There's no question about it, you know, and I'm not.

But then, you know, this is something that I used in the debate also when we talked about going to US. See, in a family, a bright

boy is there, and the family takes all its resources and spends on the bright boy so that the bright boy can get ahead in life.

And at the end of it, the bright boy gets married to a very rich person's daughter and then moves away from the family. Is he being fair to the family?

It's similar. There is a similarity between that and the country.

It's a poor country, which is giving all of us this opportunity by spending money on us so that we perform to our potential.

With expectation, we will come back and contribute to this country.

If you don't do that, we are deserting our country.

I think that's something; that's one thing. The second thing is,

I, you know, tell this to the colleagues who come for interviews, you know, so they come and ask me, saying, this division is so weak, so how do you expect me to come and join?

I say that I'm employing you to make it strong.

You know, so its up to you to make it strong, you know.

You have an opportunity, you have an opportunity, and you have an expectation, you know.

And that is why we, you know, so to the faculty members, I think, you know, we all, all the time should be looking for.

What is that that we can do differently so that we are doing better as an institution, as a department institution, and as an individual?

I think it is easy to get caught in a groove and continue to do what we are doing and not see outside the box and think outside the box and see what we can do.

I think that and

See, problems are very big. And I don't think I, as an individual faculty member, can solve these problems.

But if we work together, we can solve such problems.

So, I think we need to learn as a faculty to work together in groups.

We work in, we all, we are very good at working individually, you know, but working together.

This is something that we learnt after the Burj earthquake.

After the Burj earthquake, we in the success group, all the faculty joined together and applied for DSC funding for working out a solution for retrofitting.

You know, and that, all of us thoroughly enjoyed it and then we made a great contribution to the country's technology in that area.

And we could not have done this as an individual.

So I think we need to learn to work together as a faculty.

And then there seems to be, we as faculty members have ego.

I think there is nothing wrong in having an ego, but it should not come in the way of working with others.

And I think ego clashes are something that we need to be able to learn to work with and learn to control, learn to control, you know.

In fact, I tell that we all, as you know, as faculty members, think very greatly of ourselves, when we go home, it's our home, they put us back in our place, take us off the pedestal and put them on the ground.

Like that, it's important that we learn that we are all human beings.

And the faculty retreat helped us to do that.

The faculty retreat made us all realize that we are human beings.

We have wives. We have children. And we have similar expectations.

And nothing more than that. And then as a result, we were able to appreciate each other better.

We came closer to each other as persons.

And I think it's important that we work together as a group as persons.

That is to the faculty, to the administration, to reduce the administrative load.

And I think, you know, unfortunately, possibly because I think we feel that faculty members will be able to

keep the academic interest in mind or put in the administrative roles.

I can understand that. But I think we need to be able to find administrators who will have academic interest in mind so that faculty members don't need to be able to focus on what I think.

I think we need to find a way of doing that. Prof. Arun Menon: I think that's where the IITs need to grow into possibly.

Sir, thank you so much for your time, your insights.

And this is so invaluable for us. Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: I hope so.

Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: I hope so. Prof. Arun Menon: Such a long association with this institution.

We wish you many more. Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: Thank you. Prof. Arun Menon: And in the week that just concluded, the week of Guru Purnima, my pranams to you.

Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: Thank you. Prof. Arun Menon: And thank you so much for the enlightening talk.

Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: Thank you for the time, and thank you for the opportunity.

And then, you know, I look forward to seeing greater and greater heights, the IITs, all the IITs.

In particular; In particular, IIT Madras in reaching. And civil engineering department, of course.

Prof. Arun Menon: Thank you. Prof. V. Kalyanaraman: Thank you. Prof. Arun Menon: Thank you.

Mr. Najeeb Shariff: Hello everybody,

my name is Najeeb Shariff

and it's a great honour for me

to talk to Professor P.S. Rao

and many people know him,

he was retired faculty at IIT Madras.

He was the head of department of Civil Engineering,

he held a lot of administrative positions

in the institute and he was

instrumental in building the laboratories at IIT Madras;

the structural engineering laboratory was built by him

and he is the

founding members of the institute, if I can

put it that way.

He has served for almost 30 years in this institute

and held various

administrative positions.

So, today, we will have Professor P.S. Rao

talking about his journey,

about his life

and the whole story about it.

So, Professor P.S. Rao,

I would like to start

from your childhood days.

So, can you just tell us about

how it all began,

so, where did you do your schooling

and what went on,

how did you choose

civil engineering as your BTech degree?

Prof. P.S. Rao: Thank you Shariff for your

kind words of introduction.

I had my schooling in a very small town

called Tuni,

it is on the border between two districts

east Godavari and Vishakhapatnam

in Andhra Pradesh

and the type of education at that time was

slightly different from

what you have nowadays.

We had schooling for 11 years

and it ends with a

an examination called SSLC,

Secondary School Leaving Certificate.

And one is supposed to

complete that at the age of 16 or 17,

because one is supposed to start at

age of 5,

but I completed that

when I was thirteen and half years,

very very young age

in Tuni, standing first for the school.

Then, I went to the college

in a bigger town called Rajahmundry

in east Godavari district,

the Government Arts College

and at that time,

the state of Andhra Pradesh did not exist,

it was a composite Madras state

and for the entire Madras state,

there were only three or four government colleges,

one of them happened to be

Rajahmundry college,

the other one was at Kumbakonam

and it was quite difficult to get into that college also,

but because of the fact that I did well in the

SSLC examination,

I was the school first,

I could get into that college

or intermediate.

The pattern was

at that time: 11 years of schooling,

2 years of intermediate,

and then,

degree was for 2 years for BSc,

but for BE,

it was 4 years.

So, I went for a 2 year course,

intermediate course at

Government Arts College, Rajahmundry

which was the stepping stone

for further professional studies later.

Mr. Najeeb Shariff: Ok.

So, after Rajahmundry, then what happened?

Prof. P.S. Rao: Well, at that time also

just as it is these days,

everybody wanted to become either an engineer

or a doctor and I wanted to become an engineer

and unlike the situation

in the present day,

civil engineering was the most preferred batch

branch at that time.

Nowadays, suppose it's computer science,

but at that time,

civil engineering was the number one choice,

then mechanical engineering,

then electrical engineering

computer science didn't exist at all.

So, that was the most preferred batch by - a branch -

by all the students and

I decided to go for civil engineering

because I had also an aptitude

for construction activities.

My father, he was headmaster of a high school,

but he was very good at construction

out of interest.

So, maybe part of it rubbed down to me

and I took civil engineering.

Then, of course, comes the question

to which college should you go?

IIT Kharagpur was started in 1951,

I finished my intermediate in 1953.

And many people did not know about IIT,

it was the only IIT at that time,

but then

the concept of IIT was not known to many of you.

There was Guindy Engineering college for example,

with about 78 years of history

by that time itself,

Roorkee, very well-known old institute,

Shibpur College of Engineering,

these are the three oldest engineering colleges in India.

IIT was very new.

But then,

people knew that it was an institute

started in collaboration with

international collaboration.

It was an institute

where professors from at least

8 or 9 countries

were participating through UNESCO.

So, I wanted to go to that particular institute,

and luckily got selected.

And when we, the first 3-4 batches,

when we got selected for IITs,

we didn't go through this JEE.

We were interviewed by

particular selection committee,

each state had its own interview board

and because of my good career,

intermediate, I stood university first

so, because of my good academic career,

I could just walk into IIT Kharagpur

in 1953, that is, 3rd batch.

Mr. Najeeb Shariff: So, civil engineering was an automatic choice for you

because that was the most preferred

Prof. P.S. Rao: Yeah. Mr. Najeeb Shariff: Engineering branch at that point of time.

Prof. P.S. Rao: Yeah, I mean exactly.

Coupled with the interest

my father created in me, although

he was not an engineer.

Mr. Najeeb Shariff: Ok.

Prof. P.S. Rao: But he used to take a lot of interest in engineering activities.

Mr. Najeeb Shariff: Ok

And you met Professor P. C. Varghese there?

Prof. P.S. Rao: Yes.

Mr. Najeeb Shariff: So, can you share something about that, your first- Prof. P.S. Rao: I will tell;

I will tell you a few words about my

stay at IIT Kharagpur.

As I already told, I belong to the 3rd batch,

first batch was selected in 1951

and it was a four-year course at that time.

Professor Varghese joined that institute

around 56-57, around 55-56.

But then,

he came already with a good record as a

very good practical engineer from Hirakud Dam;

prior to that he did his post-graduation studies

in Harvard University,

everybody knows about Harvard

and that too, under the father of

soil mechanics, Terzaghi. Terzaghi

He didn't teach us in the third year

or fourth year.

In the undergraduate courses,

I didn't have the benefit of his lectures,

but in between, he went to England,

took a postgraduate

degree from Imperial College, London

and by the time he returned in 1957,

I entered my MTech

and I did my postgraduation under him.

Mr. Najeeb Shariff: Then - Prof. P.S. Rao: My post-graduate thesis under him.

Mr. Najeeb Shariff: So, after Kharagpur,

you went straight to Germany

or was, did you work

somewhere in between? Prof. P.S. Rao: Well, there was something that

happened in between also.

Immediately after I completed my BTech 1957,

I decided I would write the engineering

services examination

conducted in, by the UPSC

that selects people to IRSE,

Indian Railway Service of Engineers,

Central PWD,

then Military Union Service - there were about 4 or 5

central services together,

examination was conducted.

So, I wanted to take a chance

and write that examination.

Then, 2 or 3 of my other classmates also joined me

and we formed a group,

the other person was Shankar Prasad,

he was also a ranking student in civil engineering,

then one Venkatramani.

The three of us decided to stay back in the hostels

after completing our BTech

and work

in a very concentrated fashion,

focused fashion for the examinations.

So, we prepared like that for three

three months together,

some sort of a combined study,

wrote the examination sometime in August,

the results came out the next year

and believe it or not,

the three of us were in the top 10,

I was the number 1,

my friend Shankar Prasad was number 3

and my friend Venkatramani was number 7.

So, that I would like to quote as an example

to the present generation

which is taking the coaching at various centres

and competitive examinations.

We didn't take any coaching

and it was the first attempt for all of us.

Many people here, they spread the myths

that you have to write 2 or 3 times before you succeed,

but we attended, attempted for the first time,

when got these ranks of 1st, 3rd, and 7th

without any coaching.

So, I would like to tell the present generation

depend on your own calibre

and build up your own method of studying

rather than believing in coaching.

Najeeb Shariff: Before - Prof. P.S. Rao: So, after that, there was a gap

because once they announce the results,

there will be some time

until you get the order.

Najeeb Shariff: Yeah.

Prof. P.S. Rao: So, I joined MTech

and then, did my MTech course,

finished my MTech,

then joined as a research scholar under

Professor Varghese in a CSAR scheme

which I got sanctioned at that time,

a sponsored project at that time.

Mr. Najeeb Shariff: Ok.

And then, after Kharagpur,

after you finished your Master's,

you then wanted to go to Germany

for doing your doctoral studies.

Prof. P.S. Rao: That's right. Although I stood first in that examination,

I didn't take up that career of -

I just wanted to test myself

and proved myself.

And then after having proved myself,

I followed my

my immediate passion of studying further

and I chose Germany because at that time

or even before that,

German is known for;

Germany is known for its high level of scientific

and technological development.

Particularly what they

produced before the Second World War,

during the Second World War,

after the Second World War,

so, I wanted to go to Germany.

So, I started learning German

even when I was in IIT Kharagpur

and when they called me for interview,

I could impress them with my German knowledge

even before I went to Germany.

Mr. Najeeb Shariff: Ok.

Prof. P.S. Rao: So, that was an additional point

in addition to my good academic record,

that was an additional point

which brought me the scholarship.

Mr. Najeeb Shariff: Ok.

Prof. P.S. Rao: It is a DAAD’s scholarship

German Academic Exchange Service.

I was there for 5 years in Germany.

Mr. Najeeb Shariff: And there you worked with Professor Rüsch.

Prof. P.S. Rao: Right.

Mr. Najeeb Shariff: And I mean I would like to bring to the attention of

all the audience that

the work done by Professor Rao

that time which was

on developing the constructive model for

concrete is being used by,

you know, several engineers across the world

and it has been incorporated by several codes,

talk us through that

and how do you feel when

you know it's been implemented in the codes

because that's the ultimate satisfaction for every researcher.

Prof. P.S. Rao: I will tell you how it started.

I went to Professor Rüsch after completing

my German language course

in a small German village,

but I should say couple of words about that

German language course also.

It's conducted in an institute called Goethe Institute

named after one of the

famous poets of Germany, Goethe

and deliberately, they are located in villages

where the population

doesn't speak any language except German.

And the German teachers in the institute also,

they know they are very good in English,

they are very good in French,

some foreign languages they are experts,

but they never utter even a single word of

English or French or anything,

they keep on telling you in German and German and German.

If you do not understand,

again he repeats the

instruction again in German only

with different words

so that you get that feeling

for the words.

Mr. Najeeb Shariff: Yes.

Prof. P.S. Rao: And when you go out

and buy something in the market or

something like that again you are forced to

Mr. Najeeb Shariff: Speak in German. Prof. P.S. Rao: speak German,

maybe initially, naturally broken German,

but then it gets better and better Yes

as you go by.

So, I had undergone a course,

a 2 months course at that time.

I went in October 1959

to Professor Rüsch,

told him that I would like to do a PhD,

he said forget about PhD,

I want to first of all know the candidate myself

before I decide whether he is fit for PhD or not.

So, join in a research group

which is conducting an ongoing research project,

show me your interest and capability,

then we will decide about it.

That's how I got into that group

which was already working

on the effect of sustained load

on concrete.

Mr. Najeeb Shariff: Ok.

Prof. P.S. Rao: So you, suddenly the concrete is tested

with a 2 minutes duration

in a laboratory either on a cube or a cylinder,

but suppose you keep that load constant

for a period of 5 minutes, 10 minutes,

1 hour or few hours,

1 or 2 days and so on

with time, the strength of the concrete decreases

and that has to be taken into account

in design of the structures

because all the structures are

permanently loaded.

Mr. Najeeb Shariff: Yes.

Prof. P.S. Rao: For a long period of time.

So, that was being investigated

in depth

and I joined that particular team

and it was a big team of about 4 or 5 engineers

working under him because

we had to take

so many parameters into account:

the strength of concrete,

the age at which the concrete is to be loaded,

the rate at which the concrete is to be loaded,

so many variations, variables

which are to be investigated.

So, there was a group

conducting experiments

and getting the results and there was a group

which is taking the results and evaluating the results

to develop a theory out of that,

and I belonged to the second group.

Mr. Najeeb Shariff: Ok.

Prof. P.S. Rao: So, the one group was conducting tests,

we took the results from them

and there was another senior colleague of mine

by name Grasser,

he also became a professor later.

And, myself and Professor Grasser

formed the team which evaluated

the results.

So, we found that

whereas the strength decreases with time,

but the deformations increase.

So, we had to combine

fall of strength

with the increase in deformation.

We tried so many stress-strain curves.

And finally arrived at

a particular stress-strain, stress block,

a parabola plus rectangle

which gave the minimum strength

taking all the parameters into account.

And that is how the German government has

German industry has adopted that as a standard,

then France has adopted that as a standard

and the entire Europe has adopted that as a standard,

England has adopted that as a standard

and we corporate from England

in one of our earlier course,

I think in 1978 code if I remember right.

Mr. Najeeb Shariff: And your PhD was

on developing the constructive model

or was it something different?

Prof. P.S. Rao: Well, I didn’t, I couldn’t submit my PhD on that

because it was a group

work of about 4 or 5 engineers

and that is the practice in

German Universities that yes,

somebody submits a thesis for PhD,

but they would like to encourage the group work,

at least 3 or 4 people work together

and maybe one of them takes one part of the experiment

and develops a thesis on that,

another person takes another part of the work

and develops a thesis on that.

So, I could not do that

because it was a big group already

and my Professor Rüsch

suggested to me after seeing the way

I interpreted the results of the other group,

he said why don’t you take up your own independent work

and my dissertation topic was

on the stiffness of

reinforced concrete members after cracking.

Mr. Najeeb Shariff: The tension stiffening effect.

Prof. P.S. Rao: Tension stiffening effect, yes

and that has again become a standard,

I am happy to know, to tell you also,

that it has become the standard method of calculating

the tension stiffening effect

according to the latest Euro norms;

Euro norms.

So, I feel very happy

to know that my work found

Mr. Najeeb Shariff: Place in several courses. Prof. P.S. Rao: use in, not only in Germany,

but in several countries

for practical design of structures.

Mr. Najeeb Shariff: Yes.

Prof. P.S. Rao: It formed the benchmark.

Mr. Najeeb Shariff: Then tell us about this story of the shells,

you were so fascinated about shells,

and you would design lot of shell structures,

roof structures in Germany,

so, how did all of that happen?

Prof. P.S. Rao: Yes, shells started,

reinforced concrete shells

started in Germany.

Professor Dischinger was the person

who built the initial shells

and Professor Rüsch under whom I worked

was a student of Professor Dischinger

and his thesis was on shells

when he graduated in 30s or 40s,

he worked in South America,

built large number of shells,

but gave up shells,

he became a researcher on basics of concrete

once he became a professor.

But shells for example,

were used in large measure

for factory of Volkswagen

in the northern part of Germany.

Mr. Najeeb Shariff: Yes.

Wolfsburg, I think is the name of the city

Prof. P.S. Rao: where Volkswagen had their factory.

Professor Rüsch built those shells, those north light shells.

Mr. Najeeb Shariff: Ok.

Prof. P.S. Rao: But then later on,

they lost in popularity

because as the time passed by

particularly after Second World War,

labour cost grew

much faster than the material cost.

Shells has advantage

that the material consumption is very very small,

but the labour involved

in making the necessary form work

is quite substantial

and with the change in the ratios of

cost of labour versus cost of material,

the shells have gone into background nowadays.

Mr. Najeeb Shariff: So, after spending five years in Germany,

you flew back to India and -

Prof. P.S. Rao: No, I didn’t fly back, I came by ship.

Mr. Najeeb Shariff: You came by ship, ok.

So, you sailed back to India.

There is- Prof. P.S. Rao: I would like to make this comment,

I went by air.

Mr. Najeeb Shariff: Yeah.

Prof. P.S. Rao: Came by ship.

I deliberately chose this ship

because I wanted to see Naples.

Mr. Najeeb Shariff: Ok.

Prof. P.S. Rao: There is a saying "see Naples and die".

Mr. Najeeb Shariff: Ok.

Prof. P.S. Rao: So, it is a very famous city in Italy.

Mr. Najeeb Shariff: Yeah.

Prof. P.S. Rao: In addition to that, I wanted to have the

experience of travelling by ship

which I didn’t have when I was going

so, I deliberately took ship to come back,

for 2 weeks it took from Naples to

India. to- to Mumbai, Mumbai.

Mr. Najeeb Shariff: So, after 5 years,

after spending 5 years in Germany,

you came back to India

and who was the first person you met?

I am sure you did not go to Rajahmundry;

you went somewhere else.

Prof. P.S. Rao: No, I did not go to Rajahmundry,

but before I tell you that experience,

let me tell you

what I did in addition to my

research work in Germany.

I told you already two important things,

the stress concrete stress block one,

then the tension stiffening effect, second,

those were the main activities for me.

But in addition to being a researcher,

I had good exposure to industry.

The contact between the industry

and universities

in Germany is very very strong.

And they have a

system called Prüfingenieur

through which means in literally translated

checking engineer.

So, even if a God designs a structure,

another God should check the design

and that is how Professor Rüsch used to get

a lot of designs for checking.

And here because of my,

because of the confidence he had in me

along with Grasser of course,

he asked me also to help him in checking the designs

and I did lot of checking

work for Professor Rüsch

and through that,

came in contact with a number of firms

constructing buildings, bridges and so on

and very monumental structures were constructed,

one of them is a hanger for

Lufthansa.

Lufthansa

and also, for the NATO

military base at that time.

With a column free area imagine

150 metres by 60 metres,

150 metres, 60 metres

absolutely column free

so, that two Boeing jets can get into their hangar

simultaneously for repair.

Mr. Najeeb Shariff: And this was a steel structure.

Prof. P.S. Rao: That was a steel structure of course.

Yes, after that, when I went to, came to Mumbai,

the two people whom I met at the Mumbai

Mumbai port

because I came by ship,

were my brother,

who also graduated from IIT Kharagpur

2 years younger to me,

and my brother-in-law

who was in the railways at that time.

But they came only to see me

and take my luggage to Tuni

where my parents were.

I came straight to Madras.

After five years of stay in Germany

returning to India,

I first came to IIT Madras

from Bombay

to attend an interview

in civil engineering department.

I landed on the 4th of June

and the interview was on the 8th of June,

just made it in time,

and Professor Sengupto was the director,

Professor Varghese was the head of the department

and got selected as assistant professor

and joined in October in 1965

as an assistant professor.

Mr. Najeeb Shariff: So, when you joined here as a professor, assistant professor.

Prof. P.S. Rao: Yeah, assistant professor.

Mr. Najeeb Shariff: You, there was nothing,

I mean the there was no laboratory at that time.

Prof. P.S. Rao: Right.

Mr. Najeeb Shariff: You had to build it from the scratch because

the IIT itself was very new,

IIT Madras. Prof. P.S. Rao: Well, I don’t say I built it

but we built it Mr. Najeeb Shariff: Yes

Prof. P.S. Rao: along with our colleagues also.

Mr. Najeeb Shariff: So, how much of German

influence was there

in the sense, like your stay in Germany

and your association with the professors there

and how much of it came down here,

how much of it trickled down? Prof. P.S. Rao: Yes

there, there again I have to tell

a couple of stories.

The civil engineering department

was not included

in the Indo-German agreement

when they set up this institute of

IIT in the- IIT Madras.

But that reminds me

my connection with IIT Madras

started well before that

even when I was in IIT Kharagpur. Mr. Najeeb Shariff: Kharagpur

Prof. P.S. Rao: The German delegation

which came to India

to study the existing IITs

already by that time,

there was IIT Kharagpur, naturally,

then second IIT was Mumbai

the third was IIT Madras.

So, they wanted to study how IIT Kharagpur

and IIT Mumbai were working,

and that committee

came to IIT Kharagpur in 1950,

this institute was started in 59, 57.

Mr. Najeeb Shariff: Ok.

Prof. P.S. Rao: And I was a student at that time,

I was in my

Azad Hall of residence at IIT Kharagpur,

we invited the German team

for dinner on a Deepavali day

so, the German team which sanctioned this institute,

we entertained them in our hostel

at IIT Kharagpur

2 years prior to that

on a Deepavali day.

Yes, coming back to IIT Madras,

when civil engineering was not included,

Professor Verghese came down from IIT Kharagpur,

he knew how valuable the

foreign collaboration is

from his IIT Kharagpur days,

he somehow wanted to

get civil engineering also included

in the departments

which are to be supported by Germany

and it came very handy to him

that the leader of the German delegation

which was here in IIT Madras

looking after

the initial setting up of the institute

happened to be Professor Kraus,

who was a professor at IIT Kharagpur.

So, professor Varghese knew Professor Kraus

from his Kharagpur days

and then,

after he took over as the head of department in 62 or 63

around that time,

he approached Kraus,

convinced Professor Kraus

that civil engineering also should be included

and that is how he got

civil engineering included.

The reason why the Germans didn’t include

civil engineering in the initial list was

they felt that

India was good enough

in civil engineering even without foreign aid,

but then, that was correct,

we had wonderful irrigation structures

which were on par with

any structures anywhere in the world,

irrigation structures,

but urban infrastructure,

we were not on par with other countries.

So, I think Professor Verghese

must have made that point to Professor Kraus

and got civil engineering included.

And once we got civil engineering included

in 63, 64 around that time,

he started corresponding with me

in Germany

because he knew I worked with Professor Verghese,

went to Germany

so, he knew that I was in Germany,

and he said

why don’t you ask your Professor Rüsch

to help us

in setting up the laboratory.

Then, when I met Rüsch,

he was already 64 or 65,

he said, Rao I am quite old,

India is very far,

you know, go to Professor Kordina,

who was here in my laboratory

and who has now become a professor at Braunschweig,

and he will agree.

So, I and he I knew Professor Kordina

because he was originally in Munich,

he used to come very frequently,

then I wrote to Professor Kordina,

I talked to him and he readily agreed.

And then, as a junior of his Professor Eibl,

he was also earlier in Munich laboratory

so, those two formed a team,

Professor Kordina and Professor Eibl,

they came down here number of times,

helped us in

preparing the layout for the laboratory

obtaining equipment from the German companies,

all that was done by the German team.

In fact, the structural engineering laboratory

which we have today

is more or less a replica of the Munich laboratory

because I had training in Munich,

Professor Kordina was a student of Professor Rüsch

earlier, much earlier,

Professor Eibl also joined in Munich

and then, went to Professor Kordina.

so, all the three of us had that

Munich flavour with us

and we reproduced that here

with a few modifications to suit Indian conditions.

For example, the Munich laboratory

would be having three office blocks

on three sides of the laboratory

here, we have only on two sides. Two sides.

That is to permit ventilation

Mr. Najeeb Shariff: Yes.

Prof. P.S. Rao: which is not necessary in Germany.

Mr. Najeeb Shariff: Yes.

Prof. P.S. Rao: So, we made some alterations

to suit Indian conditions

and that's how the Germans came into picture.

First, Professor Verghese got the

department included in the list,

then I played my part

in identifying the experts.

Mr. Najeeb Shariff: Ok.

Who were the other faculty members

who helped you

in constructing this laboratory?

Prof. P.S. Rao: This, Professor Kordina and Professor Eibl

were primarily in Germany,

and they were coming only now and then and going back,

but we had two faculty from Germany

stationed at Madras

Professor Plähn from Hanover

and Dr. Cordes also from Hanover.

So, we had two Germans with us

for about

two and half years or three years

and they were the people who helped us

in constructing that

strong floor which is a unique feature of Yes

this laboratory

which makes it one of the best in the

country even today. Mr. Najeeb Shariff: Yes

Prof. P.S. Rao: The other Indian colleagues

some of them were already there

even before I joined,

most of them were there

even before I joined in 65.

Professor Victor and Professor T. P. Ganesan,

Professor R. Radhakrishnan,

Professor Rajagopalan,

Professor C. S. Krishnamurthy

all stalwarts in their own fields

of course, they became stalwarts later,

but at that time, they were a young faculty

and I had the benefit of their cooperation also.

Mr. Najeeb Shariff: So, while you were here,

what were the courses you had taught to our students?

Prof. P.S. Rao: I taught reinforced concrete

for two years;

3rd year and 4th year,

I taught prestressed concrete,

I taught design of shell structures.

Tomorrow in the

function, I will elaborate a little more

when I talk about my relationship with Professor Verghese,

I would like to share some material away from you.

So, I taught shell structures

and then,

I learnt from Professor Verghese also

the importance of conducting

courses for outside engineers

not only for students in the campus

that is how we come in contact with practice.

When you conduct a short course

say for about a week or 10 days or 15 days,

engineers from industry come to you

and they had to gain knowledge, no doubt,

but they also come to know that

yes, here is a man,

here is a person or a women

could be a lady also,

here is a person who knows

something more about

the subject to whom

I could go and consult

and that is how we built up our consultancy activity.

So, I conducted a large number of

courses, short courses

for practising engineers also.

That's how I came in contact with engineers from L&T,

from Doordarshan,

from so many other departments.

Mr. Najeeb Shariff: You mentioned about the consultancy activities

so, some of them are remarkable

and that we know.

So, for example, the TV tower,

the Doordarshan TV towers,

radio towers and the

tower at Rameshwaram which is

perhaps was, the tallest till for a long time

and there was one in Bhuj

which withstood the 2001 earthquake.

So, tell us about that story,

that journey about

how you got involved in Indian projects.

Prof. P.S. Rao: Before I talk about towers,

I would like to go in the chronological order

were the towers I started working in

end of 70s and beginning of 80s

but before that,

when the laboratory was inaugurated

in 1971,

it was the only laboratory in India

which had dynamic load testing facility

and the Indian Railways

wanted to switch over to

prestressed concrete railway sleepers

from wooden sleepers

because they have the advantage,

they are very heavy

so, when you go in curves

with the centrifugal force acting on it,

the heavy track permits you

to take the trains at higher speeds.

So, they decided to go for prestressed concrete sleepers,

but then, the design

again Germany was the leading country,

which was using prestressed concrete sleepers

in Europe,

so, they wanted to

copy the design, German designs,

but the German companies were not

that much willing to

part with their designs unless

they are given the contract.

So, the Indian Railways started to

develop their own designs

and they, when they came to know that

our laboratory had the dynamic load -

in the railway track,

you keep getting their loads as dynamic loads.

Mr. Najeeb Shariff: Cyclic Prof. P.S. Rao: One wheel after the other,

one wheel after the other.

They came to us

and said why don’t you collaborate with us

and that is how Professor Verghese

started the work and myself

and my other colleagues continued it later.

And it was a real big success,

the prestressed concrete sleepers

I don’t want to go into technical details

now because this is a general talk,

the design which we developed

and also the method of production

which we developed

has been adopted by

as many as 15-20 companies

in different parts of India

and now, the

sleepers are produced in millions

used in Indian Railways.

So, that was the very striking

consultancy work we did in early 70s.

Towards the end of 70s and early 80s, yes,

what you mentioned, the tall towers

was a focal point for my activity

where there were others who were doing

works on other for example,

Professor Victor was doing a lot of work on bridges.

Professor T. P. Ganesan

was an expert in experimental stress analysis,

Professor C. S. Krishnamurthy

was a top notch specialist in

finite elements

so and my group,

myself and Professor Rajagopalan,

Professor Aravindan, we were

concentrating on sleepers initially

and then, came to the design of tall towers.

And when the tall towers

were being built for the first time in India,

the tall tower we had

towers of the heights of 100 metres

or a 150 meters at the most as tall towers,

but when I finished my consultancy work,

we went up to 350 metre tall towers

which you mentioned in Bhuj

and Rameshwaram

and Barmer therefore, are the towers.

There was no Indian code,

there was not even an international code,

except beginnings were being made in America

and an organisation called

CICIND in Europe

is a consortium of countries

which came together to

draw standards

for design of tall chimneys,

but then, it was in beginning stage.

We had to build our own towers

with very scanty information.

So, we had to go through the

practises in different countries

and pick up the best

and we found that the Canadian code

amongst the existing codes at that time

was the best,

here a beautiful wind tunnel

it was Davenport in Canada

is the largest wind tunnel at that time.

Now, I do not know, in the world,

I went and visited that wind tunnel,

borrowed the ideas from Canadian code,

passed on that information

to practising engineers through short course

conducted by me

on design of tall tower structures.

And then, the people came to me

once I knew that they had some information,

they came to me for consultation

and the one big difference is

such tall towers

we have to consider structural dynamics

whereas, small buildings of 3 storeys, 4 storeys,

5 storeys of the order,

you don’t need to consider dynamics,

it is all static load,

but in a tall tower,

when wind blows on the tower,

then there is a very flexible tower,

it starts oscillating

and there is dynamic amplification

of the load coming under that.

And the Canadian code handled it very well

now, the present Indian code for example,

has taken good part of it

again from the Canadian code

but enriched by our own studies in work in our

laboratory also.

Professor Devadas Menon did his work on that,

some of his contributions are now incorporated in

the present chimney code.

Mr. Najeeb Shariff: And then, during your consultancy activities,

you also got in touch with

one of the greatest engineers

the country has ever produced, Dr. Ramakrishna,

who happens to be

just on the other side of the bank,

where you mentioned about Rajahmundry,

you were in Rajahmundry,

he was in Kovvur. Prof. P.S. Rao: Kovvur - kovvur

Mr. Najeeb Shariff: So, and it took so many years

for you to meet and then,

once the once you met there,

there was a great partnership,

you worked together with L&T

on various projects

and took the

Indian infrastructure to a different level.

Prof. P.S. Rao: Right. I was born in Rajahmundry

on the eastern bank of Godavari

and he was born in Kovvur

on the western bank of Godavari

and the two are connected by a bridge,

the old railway bridge,

but we met here only in - in -

in IIT Madras

and he joined L&T

already by that time; by that time

and I still remember when I joined here,

Ramakrishna was a fresh man in L&T,

Doctor C. N. Srinivasan and his own

design company, design organisation

Mr. Najeeb Shariff: C. R. and sons Prof. P.S. Rao: C. R. Narayan Rao and sons,

then and a few others also.

We decided that

the engineers of our age group

who were very very active

in obtaining knowledge

and also disseminating knowledge,

we should form a group of a

young engineer’s club

and we used to meet once in a month

in the residence of one of the members.

We were about ten or fifteen

engineers Ramakrishna was one, I was one,

Professor Purushottaman from

Engineering College, Guindy,

C. R. Narayan Rao sons, C. N. Srinivasan,

then 4 or 5 others

we were meeting,

discussing the codal formulations,

criticising the code

and thinking of possible alterations

we could suggest

for code making authorities at Indian Standards Institute,

it was a very lively group

for about 2 years,

but then, each one of us became

busier and busier,

then the meetings

became less frequent. Less frequent yeah. Mr. Najeeb Shariff: Not continued

Prof. P.S. Rao: So, we But we still remain good friends and, you know.

Mr. Najeeb Shariff: So, we spoke about your teaching activities here,

we spoke about your consultancy,

let us talk about the research

which you had done here and which

shape the codes in the country,

there was, you had several students,

you may number the number of

PhDs you had produced

and also the works which they had done.

Prof. P.S. Rao: Yes,

my first PhD student was Dr. B. V. Subrahmanyam,

a brilliant candidate,

he later on worked as a scientist in SERC.

Then, he became a consultant

consulting engineer by himself.

It was on the design of

statically indeterminate structures,

concrete structures using plastic hinge theory,

that was a contribution

which was adopted in some of the codes.

Then, the formulae for crack width calculations

was another point of investigation

which again

found application in some of the codes.

As I told you already the loadings

which are to be considered

for design of tall towers

based on a very rational

probabilistic consideration,

we determine the criteria for that

which again are finding

place in the chimney code.

So, like that there were many instances

where they had a direct impact on the industry.

The sleeper production

I had already explained to you

that the initial first sleepers were

cast in our laboratory

now, they are manufactured in millions

all over the country.

Now, we move to the other segment

which is the administrative..

Prof. P.S. Rao: Oh yes. Mr. Najeeb Shariff: .. work which you had

done for this institute which

has helped institute the lot - in a big way.

There are several positions you had held,

if you can first tell about your

first position of responsibility you know

when it started, probably the head of the laboratory

or head of the department? Prof. P.S. Rao: Well, I was

the head of the laboratory,

Professor Plähn was,

Professor Verghese was a head of the laboratory,

but he left in

one year after inauguration

72 or 71 it was inaugurated.

Then, I was in Germany at that time,

I came back

and became the head of the laboratory.

For about 12 years, I was the head of the laboratory,

then we introduced the

system of rotation.

So, every professor became a head

once in 3; once in 3 years.

But after having been a head of the laboratory

from 72 onwards,

I became the head of the department in

77, end of 77,

then within one and half years of my becoming the

head of the department, Professor Indiresan

came over as the director

and he wanted to make me the dean

for consultancy

because I was already active in consultancy.

So, I was there only for one and half years

as the head of the department

and I became the dean for consultancy

for 2 years,

a job which I liked

because I liked consultancy

and I did a fairly good job

which was appreciated by my colleagues also.

But after 2 years,

Professor Indiresan had an idea

that he would like to retain some of the,

we were 5 deans,

3 deans he would like to retain,

the other 2 deans would retire,

then he would recruit fresh 2 deans

and again that sort of

partial replacement

would be followed

so that more number of people get

exposed to administration and then.

So, in that process after finished

my 2 years as a dean of consultancy,

he asked me to take over as a,

he asked me to continue,

one of the persons to continue

and he asked me to take over as the dean of

academic affairs

which deals with examinations,

succession of courses,

looking after dropouts,

re-examinations conducting,

grades, publishing grades, and things like that.

I told Professor Indiresan; sir,

that is not my cup of tea,

you gave me consultancy,

I liked that work,

and fortunately my colleagues also

appreciated it, I'm happy about it

but this I don’t think I will be able to do it

please leave me out.

Then, he asked me two questions

one after another,

what do you want to do

if you don’t want to become a dean?

Said, sir, I have got my consultancy,

I have got my research work,

I got my teaching, I like all of them

so, I will go back as a professor and

do all these works.

Then immediately shot a question at me,

do you mean to say, Professor Rao,

that I should select as deans

such people who do not have any work to do

and can you imagine

immediately there came the question,

can you imagine how much harm such people

can do to the system

if I select such people as deans?

I didn’t have answers

for those two questions.

So, I had to accept that dean of academic affairs

and that was

one of the bad - worst periods

for my stay as far as work is concerned,

I did fairly well,

but the amount of work

I had to undertake

was tremendous, those 2 years.

We had to close the - 4 year-

5 year programme - BTech program

and start the 4 year program.

And these students who were to pass out

simultaneously with fourth year -

4 year batch and with fifth year batch,

they came and told me sir,

we would like to go out after four and half years

so, I had to run a four and half year programme,

a four year programme,

a five year programme.

MTech was to be changed

from 2 years to one and half years.

We had to conduct the first GATE examination,

all came under my purview

as a dean of academic affairs

and then, introduced the credit system

in the college, in the institute,

until that time credit system was not known

it was brought by Professor Indiresan,

but I had to implement that.

So, there was so much of work to be done at that time,

but fortunately, I could withstand all that pressure

and convince

satisfy my other colleagues also

about the way things have to be done.

Mr. Najeeb Shariff: But you were also the

the warden for some of the hostels.

Prof. P.S. Rao: Oh, that was much earlier

that was before I became a

even a professor I think,

I was only assistant professor at that time,

it was 69 to 72,

at that time only I was the

faculty advisor to Campastimes

around that time 67, 68.

Dr. Ramachandran,

he wanted me to become the campus advisor,

the advisor faculty advisor for Campastimes.

I was warden of Narmada hostel

for 3 years, 69 to 72,

at the end of the time only I became a professor.

Mr. Najeeb Shariff: So,

after serving in this institute for 30 years

and then, finally, you had to say goodbye,

but before you had to say this farewell,

I want to ask you, how was the campus back then

and how do you think you know

because now, since you have come here,

what do you think has changed

and the department as well,

the campus and the department.

Prof. P.S. Rao: Well, the department has become

much much bigger,

I think we were only about

30 faculty members

or even less than that 25 to 30 faculty

now, I understand it is as much as 50 to 60,

the structural engineering laboratory,

the PhD scholar strength is

quite large now,

I think the department has

I got to meet Meher Prasad,

when I talked to him some time back,

had as many as 200 PhD students at a time

and all - the all sections put together,

was unimaginable and we were

on the faculty here.

I do not know about the

teacher-student contact nowadays,

but the teacher-student contact at that time

used to be very very close.

In fact, many of the MTech students,

we used to involve them in our

consultancy projects

I don’t know what they do right now,

maybe they are doing even now.

Then, the one big difference I find

from that time to this time is the

increase in the faculty strength

and the student strength.

I don’t know because of that,

the personal contacts have become less,

and it has become more mechanical

that is what I guess,

could be the difference now.

Mr. Najeeb Shariff: So, 20 years back you left this campus.

Prof. P.S. Rao: When when?

Mr. Najeeb Shariff: 20 years back or 20 years back yes Prof. P.S. Rao: 20 years back yes

Mr. Najeeb Shariff: so, I'm right on that.

Prof. P.S. Rao: Exactly.

Mr. Najeeb Shariff: 20 years back you left this campus

and after that what did you do?

Prof. P.S. Rao: Well it so happened that

I retired officially in November 96

and an educational society

called Gayatri Vijayaparishat in Vishakhapatnam

wanted to start an engineering college

and they knew me,

they knew that I was retiring

and they started a college in December 96,

I retired here in November 96 was

continued for 2 months as

for extension here

to, for seeing the MTech student

through finishing their projects.

And when they came to know that I was retiring,

they invited me to

go to them as the principal

of the new college.

So, I became the principal of a new college,

I was the principal for 10 years

and I am glad to say that

it is ranked now as

one of the topmost engineering colleges in Andhra Pradesh,

you were a student of that college.

Mr. Najeeb Shariff: So, I met Professor P. S. Rao in 2005

for the first time when he gave a

talk for the Hindu Summit,

the technical summit and that was the first time

I heard him speak about civil engineering

and that was sufficient for me

to get into civil engineering.

Prof. P.S. Rao: Nice to hear that. Mr. Najeeb Shariff: I would also like to ask you this was

I mean I should have asked you this earlier,

but when you were a faculty here,

did you stay in the campus

and where did you stay,

which quarter did you stay

and how was the, how did you like the campus?

Prof. P.S. Rao: I this campus is one of the best in the world,

no doubt about it,

you can’t get any such campus

anywhere else in the world.

I stayed initially

for good part of the time,

I stayed in that area near the temple,

initially in those multi-storey blocks

C1 type I think,

they were being called C1 type,

I don’t know what they are called now

C1-16, I remember the number very well,

as an assistant professor I moved in there.

Then, when I became a warden,

I took, I stayed in the wardens quarters

for 3 years,

from there I came back to the

so called German quarters

that is the other side of the

C1 block was on the one side

and C block near the temple,

they were all being referred

at that time as German quarters

because the Germans participated

in the design of that building,

in the layout of the rooms

and they were meant for

at one time, there were as many as about

30 German faculty here

and all of them are staying there.

So, when once they left,

they naturally threw it

open for Indian faculty

and I stayed for 25 years in

one of those blocks, c blocks,

near temple third loop road third loop road, yes.

Mr. Najeeb Shariff: There are some stories.

Prof. P.S. Rao: Professor Natarajan was my neighbour

was the next-door neighbour at that time.

Mr. Najeeb Shariff: There are some stories which

going to every IIT, I believe

that whenever the civil engineering students

see the water tank,

they say that there is no water in this tank

the reason being when it was designed,

they forgot to take the water load,

how much of it is true?

Prof. P.S. Rao: Slow down I didn’t get it.

Mr. Najeeb Shariff: There are stories in almost every IIT.

That whenever. Prof. P.S. Rao: Every IIT.

Mr. Najeeb Shariff: Almost every IIT which I know

where they have these water tanks,

these huge water tanks and the

students claimed

there is no water in the tank

because it was not designed for that

they had when they designed,

they forgot to add the water load,

they designed it for the sulphate,

how much of it is true?

Oh, I don’t think it is true at all,

Prof. P.S. Rao: I don’t think it is true at all,

that must be a joke going around.

Why are you asking that question?

There must be something.

Mr. Najeeb Shariff: No, this has been a joke since many years

and seniors pass it on to the juniors,

juniors pass it on to the next batch

and it goes on.

Prof. P.S. Rao: Well, it could have happened once or twice,

I wouldn’t be surprised,

it could have happened once or twice

in fact, that is what the job of this

Prüfingenieur (test engineer or checking engineer) is,

it is not that 2 into 3 is equal to 6,

did he get that 2 into 3 is a 6 or 5.9

that doesn’t matter much.

Whether all the loads have been taken into account

which are supposed to be coming on the structure,

you have to check the assumptions

due to basic assumptions,

the concepts,

whether the structural system has been

properly identified or not

that is more important

than checking 2 into 3 is equal to 6 not that.

So, that is the

For example, if somebody has

forgotten water load,

then the checking engineer would have noticed it

that the water load was not taken into account.

In fact, to my knowledge,

this concept of Prüfingenieur (test engineer or checking engineer)

I think so we are calling it as proof checking,

I personally believe

it came from the German word

'prüfen' means checking,

prüfeningenieur they are called checking engineers

and we will do proof checking for printing and all that,

that is not what is

meant by we don't do checking printing Mr. Najeeb Shariff: Proof printing

Prof. P.S. Rao: we do the correctness of the assumptions

and as I told you it was a

mandatory in Germany

that A has to check

even if B is a very great man, these calculations,

but it was not there in England,

it was not there in any other country,

it was not in India at least,

but once people like me,

Ramakrishna and a few others

who got trained in Germany,

Professor V. S. Raju

who came back,

introduced the system of checking,

it has become very common now.

Mr. Najeeb Shariff: A few anecdotes which you can recollect,

can you share something with us?

Prof. P.S. Rao: I want to narrate about another episode

which happened around the middle of 1987,

it also happened to be the middle of

the term of Professor L. S. Srinath

as the Director of IIT Madras.

Around that time,

Professor Srinath wanted to

appoint a deputy director

to help him,

for that purpose

he sent out a circular

to all the professors

requesting each one of them

to let him know

whether he would like to be considered

on the possibility of the director

and if not to recommend

the name of another suitable candidate

for the post.

I replied stating that I was not interested

but recommended the name of

a very respected

professor of electrical engineering

at that time.

Other professors would have replied

in their own fashion.

After about 2 to 3 months

after this circular was issued,

I got a call from the director’s office

stating that the director wanted to see me.

When I met Professor Srinath,

he asked me: Professor Rao,

you replied that

you would not be interested

in the post of the deputy director,

but all your colleagues

want you to be the deputy director,

are you prepared to accept the offer

if it is made?

I replied to him stating that

I was very happy to know

that all my colleagues had

such a good opinion about me

and further added

that if the director feels

I could be of some help to him,

I will certainly will accept offer.

He smiled and said

he would consider that.

For another 2 to 3 months thereafter,

I heard nothing,

and, in the meantime,

I got an offer of fellowship from the

Alexander von Humboldt Foundation

for a second visit to Germany.

I left for the University of Karlsruhe

and after about 2 to 3 months

after I started working

in the University of Karlsruhe,

I got a letter from the director’s office

stating that somebody else

was selected for the post of the deputy director.

So, I may not have got the

post of the deputy director officially,

but I was very happy to note

that all my colleagues

had such good opinion of me

and recommended my name

to the deputy director.

I am repeat - I am narrating about this incident

because it's 30 years

since it happened

and at that time and until now,

nobody else except me,

my wife, and the then director knew about it.

The good impression my colleagues

must have had of me

must be due to the

experience they had with me

as dean for two terms under the

directorship of Professor Indiresan,

the predecessor of Professor L. S. Srinath.

Mr. Najeeb Shariff: There was something which

has a remarkable place in the history

in terms of engineering

which was you know

done by your colleagues or

your friends in Germany,

which is now not known to many people,

but you know the background.

Prof. P.S. Rao: No, I have some anecdotes

regarding my personal career here,

but they may not be of interest to anybody

as a historian,

they may not be of any interest to anybody.

Mr. Najeeb Shariff: Ok, thank you sir,

thank you for the time.

And I would like to conclude by saying

that you have been an inspiration

for several engineers,

you have taught thousands of students in IITs

and been an inspiration for several engineers

across the world,

thank you.

Prof. P.S. Rao: Thank you.

Prof. S. Aniruddhan: Good afternoon Prof. Jagadeesh Kumar. I am very honoured and happy to have this interaction session with you.

Maybe I will start by requesting you to talk about how your interaction with IIT Madras started.

Prof. V. Jagadeesh Kumar: Okay, basically I am from a village which is about 80 kilometers from Chennai, and my ancestors were all farmers up to my grandfather.

My grandfather moved to Chennai, to North Madras, and he was still a farmer, but he started living in Chennai and looking after the farm also.

Prof. S. Aniruddhan: Okay.

Prof. V. Jagadeesh Kumar: My father studied at...

St. Joseph's School in Velachery, and after he completed schooling, he immediately got a job in Chennai Corporation, where he retired as a manager and

so, I spent all my younger years in North Chennai in a place called Perambur, and I studied in a government school in Tamil medium.

Prof. S. Aniruddhan: Okay.

Prof. V. Jagadeesh Kumar: And in those days, it was 11 plus 1 plus 5.

11 years of schooling called SSLC.

Then one year PUC, pre-university course, and 5 years of engineering.

Prof. S. Aniruddhan: Okay.

Prof. V. Jagadeesh Kumar: So, I...

I am not sure if I was third or fourth in the school when I finished SSLC.

Then I joined pre-university, which was very short, one year, and I had a really tough time adjusting because from Tamil medium the pre-university was in English.

So it was really a difficult task for me and..

I really wanted to do chemistry.

I was really fascinated by chemistry.

So, after schooling, I joined,

BSc Chemistry.

But one of my teachers, right from the beginning, I always had this habit of being the pet boy of the teacher, right.

In school also, I was a pet boy.

You know about Professor Shankar and Professor V. G. K. Murthy, Professor Babeswara, Professor Eshwaran.

Majhi, they all treated me like almost their son.

So, in school also I had, I mean, quite a few teachers whom I used to interact with outside of academics.

So, there was one, Mr. Kanthapillai, who was the English teacher for me, and he said, no, no, no, you have to study engineering.

Because when I was in school, I also got interested in electronics and basically anything in the house.

I overhauled our grandfather wall clock.

I repaired our wall tube radio without knowing anywhere.

So, I opened it up, went to a radio mechanic, asked him all sorts of questions, then bought the spare parts, fixed it, had my first electrical shock when I was about 14 years old, and repaired the radio.

It was a Murphy radio.

So, he said, 'You have to go into engineering,' and in fact, he went and bought the engineering application form.

So, I did not buy it; my father did not buy it.

He bought the application form, sat with me, filled it out, and submitted it.

And I went for the interview, and I was not really keen because by that time I had already started going for a

BSc Chemistry for one month.

Even today it happens: engineering admissions are always at the end, right?

It is always delayed.

So, my..

BSc Chemistry started sometime in the middle of June, and at the end of July came the engineering admission, and I got

admitted into the College of Engineering in Guindy.

In those days, admission is only given.

The branch you choose after two years.

The first two years are common for all branches.

And that was also a blessing in disguise because I learned a lot in other disciplines.

For example, we had two drawing classes: mechanical drawing and civil drawing separately.

And I had even done a survey.

I know how to use the theodolite and how to make maps.

So five years, so every semester five subjects and two or three laboratories.

So when I joined the College of Engineering Guindy, the first semester was really very tough for me.

Two reasons: I was really puny—I mean, today I look very bulky.

At that time, I weighed only 43 kilograms and was really very thin.

And I was a day scholar, so I used to wake up at 6:30 in the morning, catch the 7:30 train to Saidapet, and from Saidapet I used to walk to the college.

And as soon as the college was over, I would just go back and crash.

So it ...

So it happened that my performance in the first semester was not really that good.

So that was a real shock for me because I always thought getting marks in examinations was no big deal.

But that was tough.

For the first time, I started feeling that I had to study.

But second semester onwards, I sort of got adjusted to it.

You get acclimatised to the way you live.

Then I picked up.

By the time I came to the fourth semester, I had sort of a decent marks.

There's no CGPA.

It will be percentage marks.

So I got electronics and communication.

The ...

Then I had a lot of, what you call, enthusiasm and started learning electronics and communication.

And at the end of third year, I thought I had learned nothing.

Because the curriculum, you know, I mean curriculum and what you want to do.

My hobby in electronics, of course, continued.

I built a very small transistor area at the time when I was in third year.

I was not even taught what a transistor was, right?

That came only in my fourth year.

Prof. S. Aniruddhan: I see.

Prof. V. Jagadeesh Kumar: So, anyway, I was not very happy with the engineering education I had in my bachelor's.

Even after I completed it, I thought I learned.

I mean, I am not an electronics engineer, to that extent.

Then I applied for jobs as well as higher education.

I got placed in Blue Star Electronics.

Then I got an MTech, ME.

in Applied Electronics in PSG Tech,

Coimbatore.

and I also got IIT Madras MTech.

So, I chose to do MTech at IIT Madras.

In fact, the first time I entered IIT Madras was as a trespasser.

So, I had to go to Taramani village.

At that time, it was a Taramani village.

From College of Engineering, there was only one bus called 5T, right, which used to be one bus every hour or so and

Many times you will not get a bus for two hours.

So I enquired around and they said, no, you just walk across, go to the IIT gate, take the IIT bus and get down at the last stop, go through the back door and you get to Taramani.

So that is how I started coming to IIT and

I also went to our library at that time.

It was open.

It is not like you have to have access.

It was completely open at that time.

And College of Engineering, Guindy also had a very good library, a 250 year old college.

But there were very nice books at IIT and more importantly there were a lot of magazines, not the attribute journals I was not introduced to at that time.

So, before entering IIT Madras, I did not know IIT existed.

It was the first time.

I still remember it is November 14, 1977.

And so, I decided to write the entrance exam.

In fact, I wrote only two entrance exams, one for IIT Madras and IIT Kharagpur together.

There was no GATE at that time.

It was called CEPA.

Competitive Examination for Postgraduate Admissions.

Only a few IITs took part, and later it became GATE.

So, to cut short, I joined IIT Madras and I went to the chairman council of wardens, Professor Ganesan, and gave an application.

He said, "Oh, you are from Chennai; you won't get hostel."

That was a big shock for me because for five years I had been waking up at 6:30 in the morning, right, travelling 25 kilometers up and 25 kilometers down.

I thought at least in IIT, he said there is a crunch in the hostel sector, so Chennaites will not get a hostel.

So I followed the same routine.

The only thing is this time I brought a cycle which my father gave.

When I was in school, I kept it at the gate, and I used to come up to the gate, and from the gate I used to cycle.

By the way, at that time, Saidapet to IIT was 5 paise only. Prof. S. Aniruddhan: For the bus charge. Okay.

Prof. V. Jagadeesh Kumar: So, for two months it was really very difficult because,

IIT in those days used to start at 8.

I mean now also we start at 8.

This was the contrast to 9 o'clock to College of Engineering, so I had to really ...

And the thing is, I was missing Professor Radhakrishna's class, which I really loved.

I didn't want to miss, but you know, sometimes buses run late, trains run late.

So, I went and sat in front of Professor Ganeshan's office and said, 'This is very difficult for me.'

Even if you allow me to sleep on the veranda, I will sleep.

Give me hostel accommodation.

Then he said, 'I will put you in doubles.'

You will have to share your,

I said, 'No problem.'

So I was allotted Cauvery hostel, room number 201.

And my roommate was another College of Engineering person.

So we got along, and I started attending classes.

And at the end of the first semester, again I had a very big shock.

I did not fail in any subject, but the marks were really pretty low.

My CGPA was something like 6 plus, 6.1 or 6.2, because the system was different.

In College of Engineering, Guindy, what I got used to when I came to this thing is, you

look at 5 years of question papers, prepare the answers, you will get 80-90 percent.

Prof. S. Aniruddhan: Did they still have the final exam only for all the marks?

Prof. V. Jagadeesh Kumar: Yes.

Prof. S. Aniruddhan: And IIT had like a continuous assessment just like it is now?

Prof. V. Jagadeesh Kumar: Yes.

There will be surprise quizzes.

So, then I had to again change the way that I study.

I also understood that mugging up will not work because there are no descriptive questions, you know.

Prof. S. Aniruddhan: Yes.

Prof. V. Jagadeesh Kumar: So, it is always a problem I have to solve problems and if you want to get marks you know how to solve problems, right.

So, then I started, I mean, changing my way of learning and I actually learnt.

Prof. S. Aniruddhan: Ok.

Prof. V. Jagadeesh Kumar: So, when I started learning exactly how a transistor works

what are all the difficulties, how to design the transistors, which I did not get in my BTech.

It was similar with other subjects.

And as I said, I did electronics and communication.

So I sort of decided to go into communication.

But in the third semester, I took a course under Professor V. G. K. Murthy.

It was called precision electrical measurements.

And this was a very nice course.

And there was no textbook.

I had taught the course later also.

There were no textbooks.

It was all research, research and research, outcome of research.

And almost 50% of the research was done at Fundamentals and Measurements Laboratory.

Prof. S. Aniruddhan: Oh, I see.

Prof. V. Jagadeesh Kumar: Today we call it Measurements and Instrumentation Laboratory.

In those days, it used to be referred to as Fundamentals and Measurements Laboratory.

And when Professor Shankaran's PhD

work, Professor Bapeshwar Rao's PhD

work, Professor Kalyugavardhan's PhD

work, all those were part of the course.

And the way Professor V. G. K. Murthy taught it, I mean, for me it was really fascinating.

And I fell in love with measurements.

So, when I completed my MTech, I wanted to do a PhD.

in measurements.

Okay.

Because I have seen all these nuances, the nice things that people have developed.

And so, I went to Professor Shankaran.

I initially went to

Professor V. G. K. Murthy.

So, V. G. K. Murthy said,

That I am not taking students, so talk to Professor Shankaran.

And I went to professor and he said yes you attend the interview if you are successful, I will take you as my student. I attended the interview and the interview at that time I mean now students are complaining oh this is tough. There would be a panel, right, some 7, 8, 9, 10 people I don't know I don't remember I mean, it was a huge number of people.

And students will be ragged, literally.

I mean, I do understand that that was the way people were selected.

And the positions were at a premium.

For the entire Electrical Department, there were only three PhD positions.

Prof. S. Aniruddhan: I see, I see.

Okay.

Prof. V. Jagadeesh Kumar: So, after the interview, myself, Vishwas Ulpekar and Sukumar,

three people were selected.

Sukumar joined in communications, Ulpekar joined under Professor Raina in fiber optics and signal processing, and I joined under Professor Shankaran.

And so Professor Shankaran gave me a problem and said start working, and he also told me to go to the library

start taking transactions on instrumentation measurements.

Start from the most recent issue.

Go through the papers.

I am sure many will not be able to understand.

If you understand one paper completely, come back and tell me.

Till then you don't have to wait.

So I went to ...

library started producing transactional instrumentation measurement and this was in 1978.

So, I finished 78, 79, 77, I mean I just could not understand what is written there.

I mean understand is that I can read English, but subject what they actually have done I was not able to

get to know.

So, then I decided, okay, by this time, three months.

So, I was a little bit panicking, because I couldn't meet my guide, right.

I have something I cannot meet him, no.

So, then I thought I will take the help of Professor V. G. K. Murthy

He came.

So, I went to Professor V. G. K. Murthy room.

At that time, Professor V. G. K. Moorthy and Professor Bapesh Rao were talking inside and I was standing outside till they finish and Professor Bapesh Rao leave, I can get in.

And they were talking about a lot of other things and suddenly I heard this one sentence.

Professor V. G. K. Murthy was telling Professor Bapesh Rao, "of late transactions on circuits and systems

half the paper I am not able to understand."

Right?

That hit me.

And Professor Ritchie K. Murthy did not understand half the papers.

Okay, no big deal.

I will try.

So, I did not even meet Professor V. G. K. Murthy.

I went back to the library.

And in 1976, there was a paper by Professor M. Sharma.

That was my first actual research work.

I could understand exactly what he had done.

So, I rehearsed it two or three times.

In those days, there was no Xerox, right?

There was no photocopy, nothing.

So, I actually wrote the entire paper by hand and brought it to Professor Shankaran and gave it to him and said, "I know about this work, you can ask me."

Then, Professor Shankaran said, "No, no, no, you go to the laboratory and recreate what he has done."

Okay, I thought, what is this?

It is already done; why is he asking me to do this research?

I said, anyway, I will do it; it is not a big deal.

I went, and it was a one-step 1:1000 inductive voltage divider using hoppers.

Prof. S. Aniruddhan: Okay.

Prof. V. Jagadeesh Kumar: I completed all the preparation of the experiment and switched it on; it didn't work.

Prof. S. Aniruddhan: Okay.

Prof. V. Jagadeesh Kumar: I tried, tried, tried again 4-5 weeks.

Nothing worked.

I did not know what mistake I was making.

Then I thought I would ask for some Radhakrishna.

So I took the circuit and went to Professor Radhakrishnan's room.

It was on the mezzanine floor of the hospital.

And he listened to me completely.

And then he said, the op-amp that you are using will not work.

Because it has only a slew rate of 0.1 volt per microsecond.

For this to work, you need at least 2-3 volts per microsecond op-amp .

And he suggested, I think it is 3046 Motorola op-amp, which had 12 volts per microsecond.

That was the first time I learned that, apart from bandwidth, slew rate is also very, very important, right.

So, I came back; fortunately, our department at that time was very well stocked, thanks to the Germans.

Prof. S. Aniruddhan: Ok.

So, sourcing these components was not difficult.

Prof. V. Jagadeesh Kumar: Yeah.

Prof. S. Aniruddhan: Ok.

Prof. V. Jagadeesh Kumar: So, there was an organisation called GTZ, Gesellschaft für Technische Zusammenarbeit.

You send a request to them; they will buy and send it back to you.

So, I got the chip in maybe two weeks or so.

I completely made it work, and in fact, that was put in one of the open houses later.

It was really nice.

Then I also started working on transient analysis of current transformers.

I was going nowhere.

And in the meantime, because of my

interest in electronics, I also started doing a lot of other things.

I used to build a lot of electronic stuff for my friends.

And I also learned, because in 1977, I think Intel introduced the 8085, and we had one 8085 kit.

And Professor Majhi bought a 6500 kit from Bapal.

And Professor Bapeshwar had a 6800 kit gifted to him by somebody else.

So I had access to all this.

Prof. S. Aniruddhan: Okay.

Prof. V. Jagadeesh Kumar: And we had two computers in the department.

One was called the PDP government.

That was really nice.

The first set of boot sequence you would have to actually load

by using switches. There would be 16 switches, right? First instruction 1010101 login 10101, so you have to put the 16 bytes of boot instruction, then only it will start. Prof. S. Aniruddhan: Okay. Prof. V. Jagadeesh Kumar: Okay. And it has a nice teletype, and Professor V. C. V. Pratap Reddy was the custodian of that, by the way. Now we have

roughly about four or five streams in the department.

At that time, there were only four.

And the nice thing about those four was they were named after the power system phases.

Prof. S. Aniruddhan: Okay.

Prof. V. Jagadeesh Kumar: R, Y, B and neutral.

Prof. S. Aniruddhan: Oh, I see.

Prof. V. Jagadeesh Kumar: Neutral was electronics.

Prof. S. Aniruddhan: Okay.

Prof. V. Jagadeesh Kumar: RN.

Prof. S. Aniruddhan: Okay.

Prof. V. Jagadeesh Kumar: Even if you look at some old equipment or old catalogs, you will see Rn written there.

Right?

Rn was electronics.

and RR, R phase was measurement slab, measurements and control and RS was machines and RST was high voltage and pro-systems.

So, I started learning about microcontrollers and microprocessors on my own.

I also started building, there were a couple Ranjana Shukla and Mr. Shukla.

Who were actually developing microcontroller kits.

So, I also worked with them, worked under them.

They were developing a kit based on Zilog, Z80 processing.

With those things, I was trying to do my PhD.

By this time, two years were over.

And I had nothing to show, except that I had cracked M. Sherman's research and I could duplicate it.

I used to discuss with Professor Shankaran and I sort of, as I said, thought maybe research is not my cup of tea.

I started applying.

I got a job in ISRO.

And one fine morning I went to Professor Shankaran and said I got a job in ISRO.

I don't think I am doing, I am not getting any results.

So I don't want to waste any more time.

I am going to join ISRO.

And Professor said, no, no, no, no, you can't leave just like that.

We'll talk to Professor V. G. K. Murthy.

Then V. G. K. Murthy said, 'You give me a presentation.'