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Prof. M.A. Parameswaran in conversation with Mr. Amudachary

Good morning sir.

Good morning, my name is Amudachary.

Amudachary your pet student. [Inaudible]

You are our guru.

Thank you very much. Philosopher.

Guide and mentor.

[Speaking in Tamil]

I am your friend. Professor in my course.

I am your friend.

Yeah, of course.

An elderly friend.

We are friends, we are very thick friends actually.

Now, it is my turn to question you for a change. Yes sir.

I was on your other side always,

now you are on the

side where we have to question you. Yes.

In fact, I have been given some more question by

your good friend our good friend.

I hope you won’t give me marks for my answers.

I will not give you. Great.

Briefly we would like to know your

experience before you joined IIT Madras.

Before I joined IIT Madras

actually I got my Engineering degree from IIT Kharagpur.

I belong to the 1st batch of IIT Kharagpur

1951 to 55 B.Tech.

honors it was called

my degree still a B.Tech. honors degree.

So, 51 IIT Kharagpur started

and it so happened that I was in Calcutta

in those days after my intermediate.

And we just applied and I got through

because in those days if you get a good

first class in intermediate

you could join any college in India,

any profession more or less.

If that is if you got 65 percent

or nearly nearing 70 percent in intermediate

you could walk into any any university in all over India;

you could walk in almost without much difficulty.

It was very easy to get into

the university studies in those days.

Nowadays of course, it has become difficult to the-

you get 95.5, 95.2 and things like so it's difficult.

So, I joined IIT Kharagpur

and IIT Kharagpur is just being built up like

when you join the IIT Madras it was being built up.

So, similarly IIT Kharagpur was being built up,

but we were in the same in the in a jail

the political jail Hijli Jail it is called

where the British used to keep the political prisoners

in Kharagpur, Hijli Kharagpur.

So, we had our classes there

and there was a huge hangar there with the workshop

and the workshop was full of

the World War 2 repairations machines.

All the German machines,

index machines and things like that

all mechanically automated machines

basically not the computer controlled machines,

but mechanical control machines.

Tak tak tak tak all cam control, right.

So, we used to work on that

and then we used to make drawings

and we had hostels which had no flooring at that time

and there was no window to shut.

So, when the monsoon came rain would come in,

but then of course, within a few

months everything got through

and the 1st batch was we were 180 students.

So, that’s how the IIT system started.

Sir excuse me, what were you doing before that?

I was born in a small village in North Malabar

a place called Payyoli

where later after my birth a long after that

P. T. Usha was also born.

So, I have the distinction of

being born in the same place

where P. T. Usha was born.

So, I had my primary education in Payyoli

and then I had my high school in is a town

a little North of Payyoli where my mama was staying.

So, I didnt finished schooling there I

because by that time I my

parents got shifted to Calcutta.

So, I went to Calcutta joined

South Indian school and finished my school there.

Then after matriculation in Calcutta in 1948,

I joined the Saint Xaviers College

for my intermediate science

and then after the intermediate science I

I got admissions to a Shibpur

the Bengal Engineering College in Shibpur,

but then I was a little underweight.

So, they said they would not select me.

Shibpur Papers Mills is there famous.

Shibpur Paper Mills or something is there.

Shibpur Paper Mills not there. Sorry.

Shibpur is near the botanical gardens in

Calcutta on the Howrah side

and Bengal Engineering College one of the older

oldest Engineering College

something like the our Anna University here

and thing like that

Guindy College Bengal Engineering College

is also an old college.

I got admission there, but then

since I was under weight I was a very

puny fellow in those days

and not that I am very tall now, but

atleast I am normal.

So, they would not admit me.

So, I continued 1 year B.Sc.

and by that time the

IIT Kharagpur came up and then

my parents also suggested why dont I join there.

So, I got into IIT Kharagpur.

So, the after 4 55 I passed out and

in those days like the present days you know,

people like to go to after just a degree

you go to America for M.S.

In those days it was a fashion

at least in the Calcutta side area

to apply to some German Company

and they would take you as a trainee

it was very easy to get into a German

firm as a trainee.

They would give you some

300, 400 marks per month,

it was good in those days

and they would look after you

and then after 1 or 2 years

they would even give you an employment.

Germany which firm did you go to?

I went to a crane making company called [indiscernible]. [Indiscernible] in Dortmund

where- we mentioned about Dortmund.

So, I stayed there for over- This is in Ruhr gebiet am I right.

Pardon. Ruhr gebiet they call it.

Ruhr Ruhr gebiet

So, there I was in the drawing of is for

two various or so then after that I

shifted to another crane company a bigger one called

Krupps company in North

on the North Sea area Wilhelmshaven, [indiscernible]

they use also used to make cranes.

So, I was working there

and at that time our old Professor R. A. Kraus,

Robert Kraus from

IIT Kharagpur, he had become the

the the German official in charge

for IIT Madras Scheme

and they we had contact with him

some 4 or 5 of us from the IIT Kharagpur

and so he wrote to all of us.

Professor M. S. Thacker is coming to

bought for an IIT interview

you all come down better come down and

its a good chance for you to get a job in IIT Madras.

So, we all went to interview there and then the

we naturally we got easily selected.

Sir, excuse me.

Yes. When you are studying in Kharagpur

he was a teacher there

his famous name in mechanisms did he-

He used to teach mechanisms,

but of course, he didn’t teach mechanisms directly

for mechanisms and all that we had one

Professor Nanjundesh Nanjundayya or somebody.

So, he used to teach us,

but he used to Professor Kraus

we built up the institute basically

IIT Kharagpur apart from the government side.

Because he brought in other German professors

and things like that.

Professor Kraus he had a sort of a fatherly figure,

we used to call him Papa Kraus basically

because Professor Kraus the

unfortunate thing is that he lost his son in the war

and the Mrs. Kraus and

Mr. Professor Kraus they were in China

in a college sponsored by Germany.

And then after that they joined IIT IIT Kharagpur,

they were actually employees of

the the Indian Government,

it was not under the aid or something

because IIT Kharagpur had UNESCO aid

if I have not mistaken and even that some

some English some UK based scheme

and we got a lot of this old machines from

the the the Second World War reparation

and all this we had a big

used for our workshop training.

Thing came- When you selected Germany who are the other people

who were selected with you and came time?

With me we were selected-

basically in my batch it-

we were selected-

we had one Dr. T. Ramachandran if you remember,

he was not IIT Kharagpur or something

Mithalarji, you remember Ramachandran.

He called thu. Thu.

thu. So, he was already a doctoring there

and he was selected also in the 1st batch,

he was working in Clausthal University.

He taught us Physical Metullargy.

Ah yes, he is a very good man personally

and he is of course, 3-4 years in older to me.

Then another man was selected,

but then he left in between

then along with me my class- Who is that?

I forget his name, he is not from IIT also, Kharagpur.

He didnt join IIT also he did.

One sur was.

My from my batch 3 others joined, 2 other joined;

one was Somashankara Das Guptha

and one Sumodh Majumdar.

These 2 were my classmates

and one Saradindu Sur was the 2nd batch.

Basically Sur and myself we

were in machine design area,

Das Gupta was in physical Metallurgy and

things like that and

I think Majumdar went over to hydro turbo machines.

He taught us.

I met this gentle men in

Dusseldorf in the Expo.

I see. In 1973 and 74.

He was in the Indian Export Council something.

He was in the Indian Engineering Export Council

Majumdar. Yeah

So, we all come came back in 61,

I joined Sur and I came back

I think Das Gupta came a little later.

He taught us metallurgy same.

Metallurgy. Physical Metallurgy he used to teach

metal forming and things like that I think.

Then we were of course,

in the MSB we had an office there

and we used to teach the 1st batch

and 2nd batch also we would

Sur and I have taught to Machine Design

and at least my good student decided

we that we were popular.

I was using his room,

I was permanently using his room

of my drawing design I have some elective, so

he was my guide for the design.

So, yeah I used to use your room in fact,

at at times I call it is your room or my room,

I was spending lot of time in that room

using the drafting board.

We didnt have sit in like today,

but they were very nice that’s where

you your role of helping us as a real guide you are.

So, then then basically what I felt is the

of course, then we had some problems with the

the 1st batch that is the

the the young people like that

we had some problems with the administration also

because we were

a little anti administration there was a group

anti administration and pro administration and middle group

and things like that and

some of us were in the anti administration group

when we were not very happy with these things there.

And since our background was from the industry,

we would go back to industry anytime we wanted and

so in when my bond of three years was over

I left IIT Madras in 64.

Along with us we also left at that time.

Sur also sur left a little later

and others left a little later.

So, I left immediately after 3 years and then

joined a company in in in Hooghly district,

Rishra again a crane maker

they used to make something electric hoist.

So, I joined there

and in between I acquired a wife called Mallika Parameswaran and-

Where did you get married?

I got married in Coimbatore Raja Street. 1965.

See 1965 and then from all the way from Coimbatore

I took out Rishra which was a very small town far away from Kolkata,

then the she how got used to the Bengal

semi-urban life not fully urban life, but semi-urban life in Rishra

and we spent 6 months there and

somehow I was not happy with the with the [inaudible]

Which was a sort of a Marwadi managed company,

nothing against Marwadis, but they are good

because they contribute a lot for the

industrialization and business progress of India,

but they have their own peculiarities

if your a straight forward engineer is

very difficult to work for a Marvadi

that’s my my experience in those days.

Nowadays of course, many Marwadis companies are very good

Birla is one of them and things like that.

So, and so I.

It so, happened that in 65 I have got a

I tried with KCP Madras for a job

they said they wanted some design man.

So, I joined KCP Madras in 1965

after exposing my wife to 6 months of Kolkata life,

she got used to Kolkata also very easily those days.

And 65, from 65 onwards I was in KCP

and then I used to come to IIT once in a while doing some

interpret the the project examination and

think viva voce and things like that

and then it so happened the

Professor Narayana Murthy asked me one day

why do not you come back to-

I told Narayana Murthy once in a while

that I am trying to leave KCP because the my young.

Blood. Young blood I was not happy with the

way KCP was also doing and so I wanted to change.

So, Professor Narayan Murthy said

why dont you come back to IIT

we are looking for somebody who knows

cranes and things like that.

And we have now a full fledged lab for that

professor was there.

So, then they have admission they came and then

I applied and then that this I was selected

when I was selected I told them that I am

on paper I am only a B.Tech. honors,

but I would like to register for my Ph.D.

directly without of you people ask me to

do an M.Tech. only then I will join.

Then Professor Ramachandran was good enough to say that

yes yes you have been an IIT Madras trainee in Germany.

So, it can be connect because I was one year in a

during that time I was in the Technical University of Hanover. Hanover.

So, basically I had undergone classes there and

I was . Then when you taught in IIT Madras is it?

It is before you taught. No before I taught during my training.

Ok. That 2 years in Germany.

Yeah yes. Last 2 years in Germany was in the IIT Madras scheme.

Of that scheme 1 year I spent in

the Technical University of Hanover

with the laboratory of mechanical handling,

cranes, conveyors and all that they used to make.

And I used to be started Suran Sur was also there

we started the classes for all machine design,

mechanical handling and related subjects.

So, basically IIT Madras told yes yes

that can we considered as a post graduation

we will allow you to

because otherwise I knew that once I don’t have a Ph.D.

I will be again kicked off from a IIT Madras.

So, basically I registered for the Ph.D.

under Professor Narayana Murthy

and then slowly worked and worked and worked

and it took a long time to get my PhD

1955, I graduate got my B.Tech.

1975, I have got my Ph.D.

and with my Ph.D. I became a professor here

as one is you become a professor in IIT

in my opinion its a very very very

attractive job to be a professor in an IIT.

Because you have nobody to question you

except of course, the

people like Amudachary and students [laughs]

and and if you keep away from the

political part of the whole system,

then you are happy

because you can do your work

and if you get one or two projects here and

there you are happy to do your work,

the students are good student will.

So, basically it is good to work in the

and but I was honestly tell you

that when I was in IIT also

after my even after my professorship,

KCP called me to be consultant for them

I used to go every saturday,

actually it started in 68 itself

just after I left and a

few months time they asked me to

help them with some design work in

green pneumatic conveying and general machine design.

So, I started going every Saturday

once in a while to them.

So, I am one of the earliest

consultant from the IIT Madras

staff to the industry

before it, the whole thing was even regularized,

we had a system where

why I used to and do not given given a single

paisa to the institute at those days

although the it was official.

But then the ICSR came and then

we had to give some share of the

earnings to IIT Madras.

So, it went on it went on till from 68 to almost

78 almost 9, 10 years I used to go almost every

Saturday to there,

and it so, happened that Professor V. Rama Murthy

late V. Rama Murthy you must be knowing him. Yeah.

He was also in KCP when I was in KCP

and he had joined IIT Madras

before I joined IIT Madras.

So, after- Second stint not the first stint

first stint you joined much earlier. [FL].

Your first stint you are in IIT Madras.

Yeah is second second stint

he joined in between before I rejoined.

So, KCP he was also basically interested in design area

and vibrations and things like that.

So, KCP Ramamurthy and I

used to go almost every Saturday to

spend a day there in KCP and help them around.

So, that was a good experience

because I kept contact with the industry for a

time, for a long time.

So, then once in a while I would get a little and up

unhappy with the thing and I would say that

to tell my wife that let us try somewhere else

I did try once or two places.

And then offer was not, then once the offer comes

I will sit down and we will compare

what is happening

they said no no this is good life because

IIT Madras beautiful campus

children are happily studying in the Central School and

the madam is happy with the society

here I am happy with a thing I could

there is no tension.

And the once you make the

comparison between the

the advantage of the life

based advantages and the monitor advantages,

if they want advantages were not

thats at they all that attractive

because in those days even now basically

because I have continuous contact with industry

even now the designer in industry is not paid very well.

In the manager gets a high paid,

but that manager doesnt know

how to design a machine.

He knows how to manage the project

and get other people work

and if the other people make a technical mistake

my experience is that that

very few are able to correct that mistake.

Then we settled for IIT Madras

we happily settled there children grow up,

then they flew away.

Then 1994 I retired

and when I retired just when I was retiring I had a,

I was already helping a small company making

planetary gearboxes in Hosur,

and these people came to me and then

I started helping them to make the planetary gear boxes.

Planetary gear boxes because

I had an experience in making

there was a ISRO

a requirement for a 14 meter antenna.

A with antenna that rotating this with

azimuthal rotation and the elevation rotation

and ISRO came to IIT Madras for the design.

And the Structural Engineering lab

took the Structural Design of the lab,

then Professor Narasimhan of

Electrical Engineering he took the

dish design that is the

the waveform and the the dish form you know?

And they were looking for a there are 2

some 3 gearbox, 2 gearboxes

there which are we to make-

they are planetary gearboxes.

Nowadays they are being imported

can IIT Madras help us.

Then we said I can help you

then basically thats how I got into the gearbox designs

planetary the gearbox design.

So, we made the planetary gearboxes for that antenna

and antenna gearboxes are very special

because they have to have very low backlash,

they would have very good accuracy,

they would have very high rigidity

because they are server controlled.

So, basically we I designed that and then

ISRO came again for another antenna also we designed.

the antenna so, basically structural lab and our lab

we used to do the design for-

I think we are done for 2 or 3 antenna projects for the

Indian space research in those days.

So, basically I had got interested into

the gearbox design

although my design area of experience for gearbox was

peripheral in the- in the olden days.

I became more interested in design of gearboxes.

So, this company came and said

sir we want to help in making planetary gearboxes.

So, I and he said. For whom?

For a Magtorq Private Limited a small company

which had started in Hosur.

And when he came he I used to help him for 2 years,

and then he said now you are retiring

what is your project- your proposal after retirement.

He said we I am looking for

I will settle down somewhere and

maybe help the industry for do something,

then he said that we are making gearbox

you are helping us,

so why dont you come to

Hosur and Bangalore or Hosur and then

help us make gearboxes?

So, and in those days I had 3 options to settle-

settle down after the

both my wife and I had decided that

Madras is not a place for us

because after having lived in this beautiful campus Madras is not a place for us

because after having lived in this beautiful campus

and peaceful campus for a long time whenever we go out

we became a little nervous about the city,

because the city traffic was going on increasing and

city life is getting difficult.

So, we said we should go to place where

is a little more peaceful and we have some

people around us,

relatives. Children have flown away.

So, we had 2 or 3 options;

one option was Vishakapatnam where

my parents had been leaving for-

after my my father had retired and settled there

because my eldest sister were had settled there.

So, we had some connection from

my side of the family in Vishakapatnam,

then the next was Coimbatore

where my wife's family has some

connect- family connection relatives.

So, that we have relatives to support us in the old age

and Bangalore where also we had some relations

and my sister-in-law was there

her sister was elder sister was there.

So, and Bangalore is a good place to settle down

its a sort of neither Vishakapatnam and not [inaudible]

Where you in Bangalore or in Hosur? The the-

We started in Bangalore, I was staying in Bangalore,

we have bought a flat in Bangalore for-

and stayed there for 3 years and I

used to go to Hosur 5 days a week.

Travel was tough since the the.

That in those days it was tough

the traffic was not bad,

but the roads were ba.,

This is I am talking of 94, 94 to 97. This is-

The traffic will slowly got on increasing increasing like that,

so we said going up and down and my eyes were getting bad

because I developed a glaucoma in my eyes and then

I could not see well in the dark for a- to start with

now I dont see the light time also very well.

So, driving said my wife said

you are going up and down is not good,

we also decided.

And Bangalore was also getting more and more congested,

it is difficult to live in Bangalore actually

its a very very congested city

and I think that some ways Madras is better.

So, we shifted to Hosur and let out the flat

for some time then finally, we sold the flat

and we decide to get back to Coimbatore.

When was that?

That was in 2003 we got a house in Coimbatore and

we shifted to Coimbatore,

but the company said

no no you cannot go away from us like that.

So, you have to continue helping us.

So, I said ok we will

my eyes are getting bad and all that thing.

So, if you want I will help you once in a while they said fine.

So, I used to be used to spend 15 days in Bangalore, 15 days;

15 days in Hosur, 15 days in Coimbatore.

I still helped them with the all design things.

Because the company was growing up and

we had a tie up with not only ISRO

almost all the ISRO gearboxes now made by this company.

That's one thing I should tell you.

Because of you.

Because of me means because of me and the company

because the company makes the machine according to

what I told them no?

There are many companies who

do not make a thing as per you specify.

You write some tolerance, you write some material etcetera

the shortcut and then the management

sort of, they they overrule you know

the designer is over ruled by the management quite a lot.

So, that way the company is very faithful to the- design.

So, we had to made a name and Larsen and Toubro in Bombay,

they are into defence

and defence people also need gearboxes for

server control gear boxes for their

gun systems and things like that,

because, the server gear boxes need to be compact

rigid low backlash or zero backlash and things like that.

And we had a good connection with

we still have the good connection with a

Larsen and Toubro in Bombay,

and almost all their gare boxes are made by this company.

So, I used to spend 2 weeks in Hosur,

2 weeks in Coimbatore, we will go up and down.

Where do you live in Coimbatore now?

Coimbatore we live in Ramanathapuram.

Now, since about 4 or 6 months

we are not going to Coimbatore, Hosur also.

So, the company still says no no no you should,

so the they still phone me up,

they give me emails and things like that.

So, we still have connection with the company.

The man who started the company is also old now,

so he has gone back to his base in Palakkad area,

he is got a farm there.

So, he is become more of a farmer

although as a Managing Director he still continues the

he has got the controlling hand

his children are running the company.

I still help- them technically so.

When you were the join IIT in 1961-

Yeah. You used to have some German professors like-

Dr. Scheer, Dr. [inaudible] [inaudible]

What is your experience with them and

how do you feel those days

these German Professors vis a vis the Indian?

No in my experience with German professors

in those days was not very-

I didnt have much contact with them except that

Mr. Ebert of course-

workshop you used to.

Workshop because we had connections with the workshop.

So, Mr. Albert we used to interact a little

and there was one Hassenbein-

Hassenbein right. -he was also in the workshop

we used to have in contact with them,

but it was not very close

because nothing was design.

But Dr. [inaudible] used to take class in machine design.

Dr. Kurgan actually when we came

Kurgan stopped taking Machine Design class,

I think sur and I took the classes right?

Yes. If you remember.

Yeah, yeah. Sur and I took their classes.

So, Kurgan was still just managing and

I think Kurgan also left early .

Did they like the Indian experience, these Germans.

I dont know. So, many of them I think liked

I know Scheer used to like

and Kurgan we dont know. Kurgan he went away

and he was a happy man.

He was a pilot.

He was he was a war the fighter pilot.

So Kurgan's one experience I had tell you it was very nice,

he once went to some function in

in hotel or something some formal function.

And Dr. Kurgan wore a tie and he wore a chapple

and then he will ha he had a German car.

So, he will with the car he will drive with the

he will steer with the thing and he will put his hand here

and he will go on driving and he will go on hooping

and breaking and all that thing.

Then he will say it is very easy to drive in India you know

if you got a good break and a good horn

you can drive very easily in the India.

So, he was he had that

fighter pilot reflexes you know basically,

he was basically good man

even though our connection with him

was not very close in those days

and Dr. Scheer of course, we are not very close because

I told you know 3 years I were there have left the,

then when I came back Dr. [inaudible] and-

Was Professor Haug first first time he was there?

Professor Haug was not there I think Professor Haug came

also later. Haug was teaching us vibrations.

Actually. Haug was teaching vibration,

but our connections in with vibrations people extra was less

because if as you say we were in that MSB one room there

and we were more interested in teaching design and

setting up some things and.

One stall was also they doing their period.

Stahl was in the IC Engine lab. DC Engineers.

IC Engine lab

and Koch was there

Nicholas Klein was there.

Ok in fact, Klein was very big actually

Klein mean small German.

Whereas, he was very big person, am I right?

Used to call him small big Klein. No no [inaudible] was the biggest man.

Yeah. So, we used to call this small big Klein.

Klein means in German small. Yeah small.

He was very big actually yeah.

And Nikolaus Klein was I think more in the humanities know.

Yes Germany he use to.

He is teach German right

and Nikolaus Klein was much exposure to India even before

he knew a lot about India because

many Germans specially in the humanity area

they usually are fascinated by the

Indian philosophy and Indian.

Culture. Culture and things like that.

So, they have a good knowledge of these things

and Klein was one of them.

What’s your view about the students of your days

and later first first time and then later?

Student of my days I dont know I can

that way I know students of IIT from 1951 onwards, right.

I then also you are a student.

As a teacher. So, when we were students

then when we joined our salary

we could expect up to

250 rupees a month Assistant Engineer somewhere

as I was telling our friend Mamata

this K. C. Poojari, Krishna Chandra Poojari

he joined the Orissa Electricity Board I think

at 250 rupees Assistant Engineer.

So, it was good

Assistant Engineer in the government

simply was good in those days

and if you would otherwise you may get

anywhere up to 150, 200 rupees or something like that

and and some of my friends had also join the Hindu Motors

which is in the Kolkata . Culcutta Uttarpara.

Uttarpara and

they were and one of my classmates became the Master Mechanic,

one Bansal G. C. Grishchandra Bansal

and they were and the first

gold medalist of the first IIT

one Bheem Chandra Mandal,

he also joined he was Mechanical like our 1st batch.

Thangavelu. Gold Medalist Mechanical Tangavelu,

the 1st medalist Gold Medalist of IIT Kharagpur was also

a Mechanical. He was here two, 2 months back, he was in Madras.

So, Bheem Chandra Mandal joined this

this place Hindu Motors,

but then he left for he joined re-joined the Hindustan Steel

and he grows up well there

to become a super or something in the design

and I am told he is not all that well now that that’s the-

He is still living.

Many of my classmates are no more are passed away

he is the Bheem Chandra Mandal seems to be still living

as per the latest news I got, not very well.

Your relation to the IIT Institute of Madras

as a teacher and staff?

So, then the IIT we were we were all happy to get there

very few of us left for USA in those days

and even from the IIT Madras very few in the 1st batch

the first earlier batch is left for USA.

And I think the students the earlier students

who are more interested in the engineering content of the course,

than the later students

for the the the as the years went by

the students became more interested in getting a high grade

GP GBA and then applying to a university somewhere in the USA

getting an MS there and going off.

And in many cases I have found that

what they did in IIT Madras and

what this what they studied in M.S. are

not very close connections,

that I found out and even here many of these students who

passed out here they joined the management

MBA and IIM or something like that

they went on selling soap and things like that.

So, basically means I had the impression that

the interest of the Engineering student

in Engineering is was getting more and more

diluted and and I think that’s the condition

in India now that basically

the bright students look for a good job

rather than doing well in the profession

either Engineering or Physics or

Chemistry or Mathematics or whatever it is

my because I may be too old now to-

as a grandfather I am

getting the grandfather ideas. No no-

that’s way we are also old.

In fact, we believed drawing is important and

Yeah. We believed a structures all that today

and may be the concept is changing as well.

No that is that is a structures,

but if you still believe that

you have to make machines as an engineer

or you have to make a good building as an engineer

or you have to make a good electronic device

as an engineer whatever it is

or do a good good research good development in

Material Science or Chemical Engineering or something.

So, that that you find in very few people nowadays.

I remember very well that

we used to consult for this IIT Madras,

the new entries no

when after the JEE the boys will come here.

The children will come here for admission

and few of professors will sit in the big room and then

we will interview the boys,

the boy will be accompanied by their parents

sometimes by their mama sometimes something

and they will come and sit down and say

ask what is your grade? He say.

So, much grade what is your rank good rank?

then what is your interest?

And the boy will say my interest is Physics sir,

then I would tell him that

yes you can do the integrated Physics in

IIT Kanpur or IIT Delhi they are very good

and because at that time we didnt have

the IIT the integrated in here.

So, but then- He had

Applied Physics and Ppplied Maths.

In Applied Physics in Bombay was there.

So, we will tell him, but then the father will tell

the father or the mamma who is there or

the mother who is there he will say no, but he is good

he is he will do ECE

because they found out from the rank list

that he is eligible for ECE.

So, you should go for ECE you know.

So, they will say he goes to ECE,

there was only one or two people will say

sir, I want Electric Civil Engineering.

I said you got a good rank

why do you want Civil Engineering?

Because in those days Civil Engineering was

not very popular.

So, he said no sir I am interested in Civil Engineering

and I want to become a Civil Engineer.

So, we were happy that we have

one student who says that

he is developed interest in Engineering

one aspect of Engineering and he wants to develop that.

So, it is very rare to find people like that.

So, in IIT days we had good time here

that counseling was there,

then in IIT I used to-

I the administrative side I have done

basically I have been

a Review Committee Chairman for a say few years

that all the staff members in IIT you know

the the the the the.

So, called class 2 and down staff.

We had in the committee interviewed

and also the- there were many many many

temporary appointees who went on for a long time.

So, we had IIT was

forced to make them permanent at one time.

So, we used to interviewed all these people and then

give them proper promotion or things like that.

So, I was Review Committee Chairman for a-

I think quite a few years when

Professor Indiresan was the Director. You are.

Committee of the Review Committee.

Your relationship with other departments how was it?

Relation with the departments was ok.

It is basically I am I didnt have

too many relations basically that way,

we didnt have too much in- as a colleague yes.

but in those days research was not

a big thing right,

research is you know big where research means

you have to do a lot of interact.

Inter departmental. Inter departmental work

to the lab wise and things like that

otherwise it was not more friendly.

Hostels what very new

Hostel Warden or Assistant Warden.

I never was a Hostel Warden.

My friends were had become,

but I never was a Hostel Warden

there is a Review Committee Chairman, then I was a

the President of the Alumni Association for I think two-

two times basically I think I was.

And in the first time I think we

we sort of revived the 25 years, you know

silver jubilee actually it was started

when I was a president there

and Basu John was there

if you remember 2nd batch Basu John,

he was very active.

And we had the Silver Jubilee Reunion

Started I used to be there while you are the President-

I was a Vice President.

You he is been Vice President of the.

Before also and after. Before also and after me also so .

we had we had Varadarajan as in the membership

V. Varadarajan know.

Yeah he being with the 3rd batch. 3rd batch,

then we had Jacob.

Jacob Dominic was the 1st batch he in US now.

No not Jacob Dominic.

I- He was-

V. C. Jacob. of MRF. In fact- V. C. Jacob MRF.

he was my you were the President

I Vice President Jacob was the.

Secretory. Secretory.

MRF. MRF.

V. C. Jacob. V. C. Jacob.

So, and then there also one Narayanan.

Ghost. Ghost was there, ghost was there.

And I think we did well in the

our committee we revived the

the Alumni Association from a sort of a

sleeping dormant stage to a more active condition

and now it has become very very active- Very very-

now it is totally different.

Is it become? It used to be very difficult

one man show or something. Yeah

Yeah yeah . Nowadays.

In those days it was more or less one man show

the President was active and the committee was active

it will do well otherwise nothing will be get done.

It was difficult to get a good committee those days.

Because the all volunteers to come.

Yeah yeah yeah. And spend time and infrastructure inside IIT.

It all totally different now.

I mean it it is that way Alumni Association has grown

very big now.

Then I was in guidance and counselling

I was head for I think

one or two terms

the viewers we used to have a think

is I dont know if it is still continuing

Guidance and Counselling Unit? Mamata- See-

You mean by placements you mean-

No, Guidance and Counselling Unit because

the- as I told you know the the student attitude to-

Yes. studies changed right?

And the- the student basically

who comes to IIT in those days

many of them had difficulty in adjusting to the student-

the IIT system.

They would get upset,

because they came from a college school

where they have in the top 5 percent.

these are the government they have to be say

at least one of them has to be the number 1

and one has to be the last. And if the-

they they they get disappointed

that they are not able to score very high marks,

and worse than that what happen is that

at home there is pressure what is this you did

so, well in this school you were doing a

number you were getting rank

number 1 to number 2 like that

now you are somewhere in the middle.

So, the mother will scold that the father will scold

and all that thing they

they were under some sort of psychological pressure.

And the school system is different from IIT system

all said and done

because in school system I think they get more personal care

from the teacher and more instruction,

where as in the IIT basically in the 1st year

when they come they sit in a large class

and they are afraid to ask questions in the class

and they are afraid to go and meet the

professor or the lecturer after the class.

So, they get a little lost

and their marks are not very good.

So, it needs a little re-adjustment.

And also some people cant speak English very well

and of course, I should mentioned here also that

there is that there was said

we had some cases where the-

the the reservation list you know

people from the reserved category,

they had some difficulties again psychologically induced

either induced themselves or induced by the by the

the normal entries and things like that.

So, they used to feel a little bad

because as a guidance counselling

I have come across these cases

where people feel a little diffident and

they are not very happy with the system they get,

they get into moods and things like that

they keep away from their friends

they feel they are being targeted.

So, we had the Guidance and Counselling had some

small groups of student volunteers

and we had some staff volunteers

our faculty members

and we used to organize and we used to

the student members would pinpoint the

problem their colleagues who are

having some mental problems

or something they would

report it to diplomatically to the faculty member

and then slowly we will try to

call the student and help them around,

I would like to mention one case in this case

we had a a bright boy from the railway colony,

he was having some problems.

So, once we had called him home

and we used to talk with him,

then we asked him his parents were staying in

Nungambakkam in the railway colony

he is son of a railway officer.

So, we asked him and how often do you go home?

He said sir, I dont go home very much because,

if I go home my mother is

asking me why I am getting low marks

and things like that.

So, I am afraid to go home that he use to say.

A local boy you know Madras by staying in the hostel,

he is afraid to go to his own home in

you know Nungambakkam on the weekends

because his mother will say why have you got bad marks.

Even who are they I think usually they

come over it overcome that

and then they become normal after sometime,

but few of them are not able to.

We have come across people who cut their-

there was one fellow who cut his wrist- Great-

with the blade and the- Shaaji.

Report that one Shaaji from Trissur,

then we found out that

he was interested basically in Mathematics,

but because of his grade- his rank in the JEE

his parents forced him to do ECE.

So, we tried telling this boy that

ECE is also a lot of mathematics

you can do that and then you can branch over to

Mathematics after your degree.

He said no sir I want to do Mathematics

and and lot of problem with him.

Then finally, we have to call his parents from Trissur and

we told him you better take your boy back

put him into some maths course

and we found out later that he did

a maths BSc and all that thing

then he is doing a reasonably well

that’s what we found out.

So, we had extreme cases like that.

What’s your contacts the IIT now,

you still in touch with the IIT now?

My contact with the IIT is not very much now.

But with the yours colleagues in IIT.

Professors colleagues in IIT professor’s students.

Colleagues students of course,

Amudachary was- we had contact with him,

but then Amudachary he somehow we lost the contact.

After you went to Coimbatore yeah.

We lost the contact.

My contact with Professor Velusamy is very still

continuing because Velusamy is always nearby

Velusamy was settle down in

he became he joined the Perundurai College.

So, whenever we went to Hosur

we used to stay visit them

and have some lunch with him and things like that

then he shifted to Erode

now he has come back to Coimbatore

he has taken he settled in Coimbatore.

What are his children doing, any idea?

He has got one Velusamy has got one son who is in the USA.

So, that’s the problem with all IIT children

they all fly off and then

they leave the parents a little lonely.

Don’t you think it is a concerned

as a generation as a whole

all the elder people stay back and the

children go away do you feel its a problem?

Say problem for the elder people

if you look at his as a parent I look at it that way

and say as an Indian I would say that

there is something wrong with the whole system of

education in this country where

and also the the the psychological

attitude of the educated people in India,

that education you can do well only if you go to

a foreign university and get a degree.

And then the foreign university being in USA,

where it is easy to settle

because USA is still got lot of vacancies and things like that

they have a lot of money

and you get a very good salary

and they continue there,

and finally, they become-

Citizens. citizens there they become Americans

of course, the America needs new people.

So, they basically they become,

but its a little sad for

personally if as a parent its a sad for the parent

and as a country its also its a little sad for the country

because the country has at least on paper,

we have said that we expect a lot from the Engineering

from the highly; the higher education

people who get higher education here and all that

they dont do any- they dont stay back and do research

or they dont do any advance here

because they prefer to go out and do the advanced work.

Brains drain Indian.

If you can say brain drain but

it I wont I dont want to call it brain drain

because I think we all the people India

we have got still lot of brains in India

the brain is not being used properly by the Indian system.

You were with Professor Indiresan do you remember,

he made a famous statement he is famous for the statement:

Brain drain is better than braining the drain, he said.

Very brain drain. Yeah yeah.

Better than the brain because he said. Yeah yeah.

Brains are in the drain India if you are.

So, that way- yeah yeah it is a famous

quote of Professor Indiresan.

Indiresan. Do you remember Shanmugam ?

He used to he used to

make some quotes like that that is true.

Sir you are you came here for the Golden Jubilee.

I came for- 2009.

That- And so you are still in contact with IIT.

Nostalgia. Yeah Nostalgia.

No I am in still in contact with IIT saying that

once in a while I had been following up my friend

Shanmugam and saying: [in Tamil] Ayya nee epdi iruka ayya? And things like that.

And I have asked him some one or two technical questions

once in a while from Hosur.

Right. Yes.

Sir, how about professor your colleagues,

sir K. Laxmi Narayan?

Laxmi Narayan is no more.

Yeah, but- Unfortunately-

Your interaction with him-

Unfortunately people in the-

my interaction with the Laxmi Narayana was good.

Laxmi Narayana. Because he also from IIT Kharagpur.

He is a- He is.

He is I think 5 years younger to me.

He related to Suri am I right no.

He is I think he is related to Suri. He is related to Suri. Related to Suri, am I right? Suri

Suri was his was the- Suri is 2nd batch IIT Kharagpur.

So ok yes I think they are cousins Suri and Laxmi Narayana.

Laxmi Narayana of course, he is from IIT Kharagpur,

I think he is 19 I am 51 batch

he I think he joined in 55 or 56.

I think he must have joined in 56 or in 55,

he has I have not met him in there I met him only here.

When did he come to IIT Madras?

Who? Narayan.

Laxmi Narayana he had worked in Godrej after

and I his thing is that he has done

B.Tech. in IIT Kharagpur,

he did an M.Tech also with Professor Malgonkar

than he joined Godrej in Bombay

he did some design work there and then he came over here

to IIT Madras.

And do you remember one Nagabhushan C. J. Nagabhushan?

And he did a Ph.D. here

and Laxmi Narayana is a very academically orient-

very strict academically oriented man,

I dont know you dont know him because-

Yeah yeah we dont know.

he is after you he, but Shanmuga would know him. Yeah.

Yes I know. He was highly intelligent

very analytical very good in Mathematics,

but very exact thing with the students,

and also very exacting with other people.

And he had some-

a little short tempered no,

he and he was a little is little reticent you know,

he was not too very open.

He is very selective in his association.

Selective in his associations.

With with me he was very close.

Close the I also have that opportunity this

this thing that Laxmi Narayana is one of the very few

professors he tolerated,

I am one of the few people

at his level whom he tolerated well.

And he would listen to me

and he would say Parameswaran

this is what I think why don’t you propose it to the-

the department meeting?

He was which area he was staying there of-

Mechanics. Mechanisms. Mechanisms.

Nagabhushan was with you do you remember?

Nagabushan was there, he was in Machine Design,

but he was there for a short time

Laxmi Narayana continued here for a long time no,

unfortunately he passed away

when he was still- before retirement.

In IIT in the office is it.

Yeah yeah he is a very good academically very brilliant fellow.

Do you remember Professor Swamy?

C. S. Swamy he has questions for you.

Chemistry Chemistry. He won’t come here.

Chemistry. Chemistry.

But he is a good friend of us.

But he wanted to be here, but

I believe he cannot come.

C. S. Swamy I remember. Here of course he has

a then questions for you,

but I already I asked like your experience.

Yeah yeah. How many people joined along with you?

I must tell you that- About your-

some of my-

I asked you infact- he has specific questions for you

whether B.Tech. honors from IIT Madras?

His question-

Of course those days everything was

honors in IIT Kharagpur, am I right?

And those days these IIT.

B.Tech. honors was only- Yes Yes.

the whether he was selected by Dr. Kraus?

Ok which I asked you answered, yes.

Whether was selected by Professor Kraus to go to Germany

and whether he- Not to go to Germany.

Professor Kraus selected me in Germany. Germany.

He that’s what he is said and whether he joined IIT 59 and left

no he didnt join this I mean you yourself you didnt join in 59 joined.

No, 59 we didnt we were appointed as lecturer only in 61.

Then did- then he has said-

As we came back.

Dr. Gopichand has asked-

Gopichand was here.

He was the in fact he came earlier to you actually.

T. Gopichand.

He taught us chemistry, then later on in Chemical Engineering.

Gopichand was in 1959.

Venkateswarlu Gopichand where the.

Venkateswarlu was my old teacher.

Kharagpur he came from Kharagpur. He taught us fuels in IIT Kharagpur.

And Rama Sastry was also came from Kharagpur. Rama Sastry

thought us Mathematics, no Chemistry. Chemistry.

In fact professors there Rama Sastry and Srinivasan S. K. Srinivasan. Yeah.

Then Dr. Venkateswarlu.

And then M. V. C. Sastry taught us Chemistry,

then Professor Nigam taught us Mathemetics. Maths.

Nigam came slightly little later.

Yeah. S. K. Srinivasan was first maths professor

Dr. [inaudible] was there.

But S. K. Srinivasan is not IIT Kharagpur I think.

I dont think.

He was not there in those days.

But you was in the- infact.

IIT first interview Panel itself apart from the Germans,

Dr. Koch and Srinivasan was there,

Rama Sastry was there, Venkateswarlu was there.

We had a big panel, those days no JEE was there.

So, at that time all the 3 were there No.

S. K. Srinivasan.

The 1st batch. Ok. Selection of us was by.

Interview 3 Germans and 3 Indian were- Yeah yeah.

Professor Verghese also was in IIT Kharagpur.

Verghese came later actually

and Narayana Murthy was one of the persons to join early.

Yeah he was one of the- What was the relationship with Narayana Swamy

as a professor and a guide how was it?

And? Narayana Swamy the Narayan Murthy.

He came from I think.

He came from Institute of Science.

Means I think he was in pre-college I think.

[In Tamil] Abdiya?

His qualification there.

But he got from he came from Institute of Science I think.

And your relationship with him as the-

he was our professor then also the Director.

He was the Head of the Department,

Professor Narayana Swamy Narayana Narayana Murthy.

He said your are his guide also.

He was my he was guide for a many people

because in those days somebody has to be guide no?

So, he is been guide for many people and

he is a nominal guide.

Many of whom who have worked with him

basically at least in the earliest

people who got a Ph.D. from IIT Madras

they have done their work more or less by themselves

without too much professional guidance from the,

from the nominal guide.

And he says Swamy asked you again

do you know Professor Swamy?

Do you remember Swamy? He says.

Which Swamy?

C. S. Swamy he is asking question to you

do you remember him. C. S. Swamy I do remember him,

although we are not probably very close. And he said-

when did he take his Ph.D.? Who?

He he asks about you.

75. 75.

Who was his guide? You answered Narayana Murthy.

Narayana Murthy.

I asked this because I wanted to-

ask the questions. Ask decide by- Narayana Murthy.

Today he is not able to come because his

daughter or somebody is not so well.

Of course, we have got our Shanmugam

he is- about moment he knew that

you are here he has come.

Sir, you selected me for the position of STA in drawing.

Ah good. In 74.

Ok I remember

you are doing Ph.D. will you be able to take 20 hours of

role drawing role, I said yes.

Then some questions technical question

I was good in drawing and I also studied a Ph.D. tech .

So, I know industrial drawing.

So, my first entry, but I didn’t continue, I left for Bombay.

And came back in 80. Yes yes yes.

Where you has there is lot of difference in you

before going to Bombay after coming from Bombay. I hope-

But Narendran where did he study with you, Guindy?

Studied here you know Guindy.

You were you were not in Guindy.

I am a Guindy graduate.

Ph.D. you said.

After guindy I went to Ph.D. for Masters.

Narendran joined this place for Masters and continued.

He is classmate of Narendran.

Guindy. Guindy Narendran.

Ok sir. He was the- Guindy. [Inaudible]

Any anecdotes you want to tell us?

Your anecdotes experience. Anecdotes.

Then tell about Laxmi Narayana.

No no Laxmi Narayana I have told he is a-

I mean no about that incident that has happened- Yes something.

That is why I prompted you sir.

I brought him Laxmi Narayana knowing that

you have some information about him.

Some- No no what it-

No no Laxmi Narayana was a good friend of mine and

we had lot of interaction and,

Laxmi Narayana means have the distinction of being

one of the few persons with

with with whom he did not become

angry. Laxmi Narayanan was he is a mechanism persons.

Or irritated.

So, mechanism people they all talk about

precision and this things. Yeah yeah yeah yeah.

So, his basic you know nature is you know based.

Yeah yeah yes. Because of that

very strict he will not allow any-

Yeah yeah that is the thing.

That a that is a strictness with me.

Not very flexible.

But he is with not flexible. But very selective.

He knows some people infact he used to interact with me

on gears and other things also. Yeah, yeah.

But passed away in 97 or so, if I remember roughly.

Now, he passed away because- 97.

But Professor Ram Mohan Rao sir?

Ram Mohan Rao.

He was there in- He was there.

Yeah any interactions with him?

Ram Mohan Rao is a basically pleasant person basically.

He also studied in Germany.

Who? Ram Mohan Rao.

No he went to Germany under this DAAD scheme you know.

Rayadu also went to Germany under the daad scheme.

And you have guided few people. Who?

Like you are guided by Narayana Murthy.

You also guided Professor Rama Koteswara Rao

and Madhusudhan Rao if I am correct your student sir.

Yeah. You can recollect something about-

He was my first guide.

and design he was my guide. [FL].

Very simple with Professor Rama Koteswara Rao

two people were guides

and two poles apart

one is Professor Parameswaran other one K. Laxmi Narayana.

I always wonder how these two people

could really guide Ram Koteswara Rao.

No no because we Laxmi Narayanan and myself

we tolerated each other very well. Yes.

You tolerate each other. The kind of that is come out

of that interaction very high level one

and he is more practical Laxmi Narayanan.

More analytical.

And Ram Koteswara Rao did wonderful work.

You you may not recollect, but he is-

Now he also passed away

Hobbies. Hobby [FL] hobby?

Hobbies swimming.

Swimming I still do swimming in-

You like swimming.

When the when the-

Something about Laxmi Narayanan just

in in a lighter way nothing much more to you at this one.

He came to I will tell basically because the I was supposed to.

They are two friends they have high regards for each other.

One day morning he came to my house early in the morning

some 6:30 7 like that and my brother-in-law

was staying with us at that time.

My brother-in-law means my sister-in-law's husband

we are about the same age and we are good friends basically.

And I was not immediately at there

Laxmi Narayana came into- I was in the C 5,

C 1, C 1 C 1 5. Yeah C 5.

C 5 third loop road

Laxmi Narayana comes in the morning

and comes through the garage and to the open door

says Ananth, Ananth, he calls my son.

So, Ananth Ram comes there

and Ananth- Laxmi Narayana shouts at him

see you are playing with my son with Sudhakar

yesterday evening and the you

when you played the top that throw throw top was lost.

Pambaram was lost.

So, what he said you did not to find it

you go and search it for him.

Very roughly he is talking with my son,

then while I was not in the room

my brother-in-law was there.

My brother-in-law got upset because he likes my son also

and he said who is this man coming and shouting at my nephew.

So, then I came by that in that time

by the time my brother-in-law-

he is also a short tempered man

this my brother-in-law of mine.

Then by the time I came into the room

and I said Laxmi Narayana what has happened

then I told Ananth this is happened.

So, I we told the both my wife and I told

Ananth that you go and search for it

Sudhakar will come and they go and search it.

Then Laxmi Narayana went away,

then my brother-in-law asked,

who is this man who comes and

shouts at Ananth like that?

I was almost going to shout back at him

by that time the you came

and I found that you were very peaceful with him

and friendly with him.

So, I kept quiet otherwise

I would have shouted back at him for shouting with Ananth.

So, he was Laxmi Narayan was a little

strong character that way.

Did he complete his Ph.D. before you or after you sir?

Who? Laxmi Narayana KLM

I think he completed. Ph.D.

[In Tamil] Adhu theriyadhu ayya.

After I think-

Yes after you are. I think maybe after.

I think after me.

By that time when he was about to register,

he had 20 publications.

Yes, yes. International publications,

but he told me inspite of that I cannot could not use

any one of them for my research.

I have to start afresh.

See that he is very open in admitting certain things.

So, he had to start, I think Professor Narayana Murthy was his guide.

Narayana Murthy was guide for- For everybody.

Universal guide in those days

because there was no other specialist. I know that sir.

No professor in the professor guide no in those days.

He interestingly, R. G. asked me to join department

to do M.S. and do Doctorate here.

That’s what he told me in 64.

Of course, he advised me go to industry

that that was the philosophy we believed in

engineering working, drawing all that.

So, he said you go to industry get the experience

if necessary qualify later when you are in the job,

thats what he did, advised Masters

or then I went to Germany all that I did.

I took his advise this is this is a

advised as a real guide

that is where he made up he he was decent for my-

he said don't join here of course, this is an friend

as a friend he said more than a teacher. Yeah yeah.

I should not tell you but this is thing Yeah yeah.

best ways to go to industry get a very good experience.

No because in those days it was difficult to get

a good job in the industry you know

and. I was really lucky that way

all the company will select me.

So, but HAL selected

I went there at that time IIT

aeronautical they wanted to start there

that guy came from HAL.

So, they took me and Thangavelu, we both went there,

somehow we want to come to Madras

Ashok Leyland also took us,

Ashok Leyland was there.

Ferra company those days, Britishers were there

they were trying to make the

English designs to in India London.

So, I was in that group.

So, it was a infact that we learnt a lot-

that main advice was by him. Sir, Adimulam-

Adimulam was my classmate.

Classmate. Do you know he is no more?

I don’t know I didn’t know. Sorry to be said that-

Infact he said you go to industry get experience

you can always get qualification.

Adimulam also joined there Ashok Leyland.

He was my batch that’s what I am telling.

He was much senior to you because he is my batch 64 he passed out of Guindy [Tamil] How do you know him?

Sir, I have interactions with all people from your year. [Tamil] No no-

Leyland when I come to- [Tamil] Exactly Exactly. Leyland when it was introduced.

Leyland of Guindy because he is should Guindy,

the year he passed out from IIT they passed out in-

I think he passed out in 71 so, but

and no way- [Tamil] Then how would you know?

I mean did the this is advice

and at that time they we believed in drawing

we used to- No even now I say design office

I still believe in drawing because

since I am in connection with the the industry for since my retirement

more closely than before,

I felt that detailed design in India is neglected fully

and people talk of big things that

some people will come and say we know

design we know computer design sir.

So, what do you know? I know.

Cadia. I know Cadia, I know Pro E, I know Solidworks.

But that is design for them.

That is not design.

No we he had design class means the design

where to do calculations we have asking about that-

those days didnt have the computers.

So, a Mechanical-

When you say this I will tell you one experience in IIT itself,

I basically introduced a new course called design practice.

I dont know, you remember? Yes yes yes yes.

For the B.Tech. It was going on for long till Gopinath was there.

He was doing it.

And we started this as a elective for the-

3rd year. 3rd year.

3rd year level. 3rd year level.

Class of- For mechanicals

and to start no to

start with the made it was sort of compulsory,

it was sort of tutorial 3 hours continuously

the boys would be given separate batches of 3

and they would be given-

Sir this is apart from those more drawing courses.

It was not drawing at to all. No no.

This is apart from this. This is drawing. Yeah yeah.

These were the some exposure to design it there. Additional.

They they have we had we will

give them some mechanical object

to be designed which is not taught in the class.

Something like automobile clutch, a scissor lift,

a luggage trolley in the airport and thing

like that we would give

and we would give them some basic things

how to approach it.

And we will say that either you design your own thing

or you take some information from others

and take a design, take a

drawing which a layout which is available and then work on it.

And this went on for I think 1 or 2 courses

after which all mechanical students said we are not

learning anything like that we dont want this course.

Many of the students. I see.

So, we made it elective.

So, when we made it elective only about

may 20, 25 students would come out of the 80 students.

One fourth of the class,

but these students were interested because they knew that

they could they want to work with the- to make things you know.

So, this was more interesting and it went on

and Gopinath also he continued it

we used to give them basic material,

automobile clutch means we would

give them a cut out the section drawing of an automobile clutch

with the in description we would give them some information

about how to design a friction clutch

because they are not exposed to all these things.

We would design them about springs

and all these things we would use them then they would do.

Any special projects you have done which you can remember?

Projects we did one very good project

for Dense Phase Pneumatic Conveying,

it was a Department of Science and Technology Project

which we did and it went- it successful.

With I had one one M.S. student Abhijit Chattopadhyay.

Abhijit sir. Abhijit Chattopadhyay you know

he was working on that and he

brought into working stage and all that thing

and after that we did 1 or 2 M.Tech. projects also on that

we collected lot of information on

Dense Phase Pneumatic Conveying in which

the the powder is not dispersed in the air,

but it is more- goes as a block like thing you know.

So, we that was a good project

we had done as a DSD project

otherwise projects basically I told you the 2

or 3 antenna projects design projects

which we did for ISRO

and for which we went through a lot of

descent review with the ISRO people and all that thing.

Otherwise in those days projects were not very big thing. But in

a department of handling I think goes it should map

I dont know. Can can you say this-

the department itself Mechanical Handling

was more or less associated with MAP.

Am I right? No that was was there no-

[Inaudible] when he left then we had to continue it.

So, the M.Tech. we started the M.Tech. course and

basically my my my design

specialization is cranes and conveyors,

from the industry as well as

the German training and here.

So, basically, but that’s the subject which now losing

popularity in the industry also.

There are very few companies in India who make

good cranes and conveyors.

You made arranged a very big

seminar in materials handling

in one of those your your- Am I?

No actually I did organize also not materials handling

I did organize two design conferences,

I dont know Shanmugam you remember. NaComm.

NaComm, NaComm. No before NaComm.

We integrate with NaComm later.

Ok, before that I dont know.

But NaComm one I attend for say in 80s.

NaComm was as one of these.

One of these sponsors also. First was 1898. In IIT Bombay.

No no we did in IIT Madras.

We did two design conferences for which one,

for which once we had this this Professor Gargi you know from

HAL, he came to inaugurate

and we had lot of papers and practical design

from the industry also a lot of people

and the CII the- the CII people they-

Indian industries people they collaborated with us

and it went off well we had lot of people

from the industry who came and presented some papers.

It went for 2 years,

then the NaComm the Association for

Machines and Mechanisms they took over this thing and

they had been continuing a every

2 years I think some design.

Any what? Sessions from you for improving in the

systems here. System improving I dont know system-

basically its depends on the industry also.

Means an Engineering is Physics, Chemistry, Mathematics.

An Engineering Institution cannot develop by itself

it has to develop depending on the industry

the industry must demand from things from the

institution and the institution must demand from the industry.

That does not happen here

that is one big major problem.

First thing there is more- The industry industry does a lot of

foreign know how know

that is the main difficulty is that

we do not develop the hardware

and basically as a mechanical engineer I would say that

hardware mechanical engineering is hardware.

If you make a robot

you have to make the hardware of the robot

in addition to the control spot

in addition and the controls spot is again hardware

from the electrical side and the electronic side

and the software part.

The Indian robotic engineer tends to specialize on the

software part only

that’s how why we are not able to make robots

like the Japanese which play football and which

which would will bring a

drink for you from the fridge and things like that know

we have to make those things

otherwise there is no meaning in

just writing software there is no meaning.

The software must be applied to a hardware

and the hardware must be made by here,

then only people will be employed.

Especially the the worker has to be employed know

the mechanic has to be employed

the machines must be employed.

Now, industries in fact, they

changing from man to machines all robots now.

Yeah, but who makes the robot?

Robot you have to make here not import them

if you make the robot here no problem

that’s what Japan does no?

If you buy a robot and ask it to turn out

so many for say an hour

thats not Mechanical Engineering

that is production only simple production

production management

you get the machine from Japan you

Germany you get the robot from Japan

you and you write the software

and then you say I am big engineer

and now you are not engineer

you are a software man.

If the machine goes wrong robot goes wrong

you dont know what to do with it

you call the Japanese fellow or the German fellow. Right?

Sure sure.

You have to make it yourself

and if you make it yourself

the employment kept potentiality of

the country will improved vastly

[Tamil] What, Shanmugam? Right sir, you are 100 percent correct.

You are in fact, in fact yes sir

Maybe it is the thought of the old old people like us.

No no no. Even now it is valid.

No the idea- No it is-

How many- as he rightly says

how many boys today they want to do drawing?

They do want to go to workshops? We had-

No no Amudachary the thing is not to just

that you dont blame the boys only

blame the industry. Environment.

Blame the environment, blame the industry.

I told you know we interact with LNT a lot

over this l ast almost 20 years

or so I have been interact with the LNT.

LNT boys supposed to be

very good in Mechanical Engineering

they are good I do agree,

but they are not to good in detail design.

They will give you a solid model of a think which they

which they have made

and then they ask us to develop the-

Parts detail. design. So, from the small screw and washer onwards

to the to the linkages or the gearbox etcetera

we have to develop

that those people are not able to develop they will say

the gearbox box was be so much some 300 dia 400 long

output shaft so much input, shaft so much finished.

Give ratio, so much

they are not able to make the gear box

and I can tell you gears is the very most simple thing

to be to be designed as if probably Shanmugam will agree.

Its a most complicated.

From geometry to design to manufacturing.

And machine inspection. Yeah.

You normally we say if one knows how to read a design and

manufacturing the inspection he can do anything.

And coming to Ashok Leyland thing like that

India still does not make a good IC engine.

It’s imported.

A good IC Engine with low fuel consumption is imported

and if I Ashok Leyland and Mahindra etcetera

claim that our engine is

low consumption etcetera

it is because their imported design is

efficient not because their design is efficient.

Do you agree? Sometimes yes.

So, if you can develop an engine here,

nothing like that.

Make it yourself that nobody is thinking over it.

LCA they wanted to develop the engine

gas turbine research in this thing.

I with I have been interacted with

GTRE for some time

from Hosur because they wanted some

high speed gearbox and things like that.

So, the the GTRE they have been trying to develop

a gas turbine for the LCA

nothing they still get it from

Rolls Royce or whatever it is you know.

Arjun tank they wanted a 1500 HP diesel engine.

Institute of Science wanted to develop or something like that

it must have dropped in the in the middle.

With our background in Engineering

and we thought of background of

Science and Engineering Science

we should be able to develop a good IC Engine here.

And IC Engine is different from a gearbox Shanmugam. Yes.

Because gearbox I can still calculate and make

I can still measure it and cheek the accuracies,

but IC Engine to say so much

so much the fuel consumption so much

it requires feel.

A gearbox does not required that much feel

they say difference in that. Do you agree?

IC Engine requires feel for the engine.

You have to do do something like the auto mechanic know

its auto mechanic, we will say that

he will do just do something and tell tell you 100 rupees.

Say say why 100 rupees he will say that

10 rupees for this part and 90 rupees for my

my know how, because he did the proper tight ring there.

That patience the Indian industry lacks

patience and confidence self confidence you know

the Indian industry lacks fully.

I know people from the industry like him LNT

I know people-

I we interact with the TaTa Engineers.

They come with big things you develop this develop that,

but then they start behaving they behave they

talk to you as a machine supplier.

They will say if you design they will say

sir we will give you a thing like this,

but we dont guarantee what exactly.

No no if it doesn't perform the penalty class.

Now, first time you are making a new thing

a penalty class has no meaning [Tamil] isn't it?

So, that attitude of engineering must change in the industry.

Then they come slowly come the Institutions will follow

Ashok Leyland and Mahindra etcetera TaTa

they should come to

the colleges to universities to do basic research.

That's what people in Europe do, people in America does.

USA does not make machines in the universities

unlike the Europe;

Europe they get more into the machine details

America does not.

But America does lot of basic research in

which is necessary for developing the hardware,

lot of research they do,

and we only talked research research, but nothing happened.

We did one project for DST you know it will be long back

now I think things have changed there

for the better and the good old days the DST manager say

you are not submitted this report.

Sir we are still working on it sir

no no this time that is the time line is over

you submit something and submit.

So, that I can close the file, finished.

he he is more interested in closing the file

not in seeing in what we have done.

So, why should I get interested in the thing?

I will close my his file and put in my report,

annual report that I have done this DST project.

I have done that DST project

and the institute will be happy, right.

This is his usual, his original colour. How he talks.

We have to change our attitude to work.

I think our psychology has been changed by the-

I go go back to our nationalism you know,

the British have changed our Psychology

the British people have made the Indian

educated class feel a little lose their self confidence,

or they become fearful of doing a mistake.

Anyway you go to the famous Macaulay designed

the system of education in India. Macaulay spoiled the system.

To kill the Indian- That is the truth.

that is the truth.

That’s what they say.

That’s what you are telling know.

[Tamil] If you speak in English they won't understand, in Tamil they won't understand, in Hindi they won't understand

and nowadays students have

Engineering graduates come for an interview

from the colleges the other colleges you know.

They come- we ask them questions in

we are a small company.

So, we don’t call from IIT or NIT or

Anna University and things like that.

So, comes from local rural college they will come

we will start off in English,

sir that that fellow does not understand well

then the we will ask in Tamil

he cannot answer back in English

we will say [Tamil] can you speak in Tamil? Yeah. Yes sir.

So, Tamil let me ask questions in Tamil then

simple mechanical questions

most of them do not answer properly.

A few of them a very rarely

maybe 1 or 2 out of 10

have understood the subject,

they will answer to you good in Tamil,

what they have understood?

And they have understood the principles.

That is the type of people we should have.

Not people who talk in English and explain it,

but if they are able to explain it in their own tongue

it's good because what is matter is

you have to understand the thing rather than express it,

and over time you will start expressing.

I went- when I went to Germany I didnt know German,

but in 3 years time I picked up German speaking

I could read German books.

Now that system that they make you.

Learn in fact, they say on the system you go.

You know- Without knowing Germany cannot.

No no, I didnt go to a German school also there

unlike you when you went

you went to the school you know.

Yeah infact even we are trained in India

with the institute and then.

The language- I didn't I didn't have any language course

I just straight away went and joined the

the company there and when I joined no German,

then we started to making drawings there

I used to make drawings

for almost 6 month I used to make only in drawings.

The good old fashioned way on T board

with T scale and or drawing machine, then

slowly then they said

you fellow you know the English know.

So, now, you they put me into projects which were-

English projects. English, American based projects you know.

So, I would write out of all their

calculations in English and all that thing,

so I used to do that.

Then slowly I picked up the language

I used to read books in English in German

the I picked up I could speak in German

not 100 percent grammatically correct, but

the standard German nobody will question me

without looking at my color

they would not known whether I am a German or not.

[Speaks German] drawings? [Speaks German]

I think we should say how the video was taken.

How video shake?

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Prof. O. Prabhakar in conversation with Prof. B.S. Murty

Good morning friends.

Welcome to this interaction session with Professor O. Prabhakar,

with the Heritage Centre.

Professor Prabhakar, thank you, sir,

thanks for coming

and to spare your valuable time with us.

You had a very distinguished,

I would say, honour

of becoming a faculty in the same place

where you had your graduate studies and also PhD studies.

Shall we go to your undergraduate studies level

and to know what motivated you to join IIT Madras?

What was the perception of students those days,

school students about IITs;

can we start with that?

Thank you, Professor Murty,

senior professors, Professor Swamy,

Professor Reddy, I am very happy they are here.

Yes, I have the distinction in some way,

of being associated with IIT for a very long time.

I joined here in 1960,

and probably went out in 1998,

and in fact, one of the directors called me

a good example of inbreeding.

But anyway, there stands the matter.

Yes, we all...that time, IIT was not very popular.

In fact, the there was no examination.

It was recruitment by our marks in

Plus 2. final plus 2 and...

Was plus 2 there, sir, those days? We were fortunate.

It was called plus 2, what was it?

Pre-University it was called. Pre-University, okay, sir.

And, we had one oral examination,

Okay. where all Germans were sitting and evaluating us.

And, there was no written exam, it started much later.

But, the oral was technical, about science? Purely technical,

all creative. In fact, very very creative. Very, very. Very good

Very good. It used to be demonstrative,

not even talking.

And, I like that. Oral exam was very good.

To know your interest in science particularly,

possibly, that was very good.

And, I came because, I came number 1 or 2,

I don't know exactly, in Madura college.

So, the principal, Prof. Totadri Iyengar,

he called me to his room and

said, "there is a very good institute in IIT,

called IIT in Chennai, why don't you apply?"

We all thought of only Guindy Engineering College,

that was our ultimate. True, true, true.

Incidentally, I got admitted there also. Okay.

And, he said, "why don't you go there?"

and that's the first time I heard.

My father was not impressed.

For him, it is Guindy College,

go to Guindy College.

but then, So, a whole decision on your part.

I took the lead,

Yeah. I convinced him that when my principal says,

Okay. there must be something very good.

Okay. But, I don't regret the decision.

Wonderful. Thank you sir. It was

a fantastic journey after we joined.

And, it was the very very

beginning period in IIT, that time.

Yeah, yeah, I know you were the second batch. Second batch.

And... You also said, I think, if I remember right,

first batch in the hostels, you said. Yeah. Correct!

It was Krishna hostel.

We had only one floor,

ground floor constructed,

with all brick and mortar scale. That was the only one hostel those days, possibly.

Yes, yes.

And 100 yards from my room,

I was in the last room - F12,

there was a burning ghat,

people used to be burning dead bodies..

and just about. On the campus?

On the campus, just about 100 metres.. Okay.

And later, the director intervened, banned and all that. Okay.

And, students used to be afraid of sleeping in their room.

I can understand. He was a very, very fine, Professor Chaudhri,

was our warden.

There were some of the students,

who were scared of ghosts and pisaasu,

and, all that,

they used to go to his room and sleep. Okay, okay.

And, in fact, one of the students was even termed as Ghost.

He is still popularly known as Ghost.

Because, he was so afraid of ghosts. So, Okay.

This is the thing. Okay.

And, this one I will come later, I will show you some...

First when we entered,

there was no dining table in the room.

In the dining hall. Okay.

We all sat on the floor and ate food. floor.

Maybe, they all thought that it's good

for your health, you know.

Nowadays, it's very difficult to find people

Yes. who can sit down and eat, right.

A burning ghat was there.

Okay. Believe me,

through the night they used to bring dead bodies and burn,

and used to be a heavy

But, I heard this was a jungle, right, sir? smell.

How people will... Well, for Velachery doors are open,

that time. Oh, Velachery

side was open. It is their regular burial ground.,

Okay, okay. Later, IIT, I think, took action to stop it

and it became part of our grounds.

Krishna was only on the ground floor.

We were the first batch to officially enter IIT.

That is why Professor Sengupto

had a very soft corner for us.

Okay. Because, we withstood a lot of difficulties.

We used to be taken like cattle,

like cattle in a truck

to college, to classrooms in CLRI,

there were no classroom here. Okay.

Like cattle, I am not joking at all.

We used to stand and

used to be taken literally, like cattle,

we used to be taken.

People will be falling

because, there were no good road, right...

used to be falling and...

So, there were no IIT buses those days?

Nothing. Only N. T. Rama Rao

will come in his chariot

and there will be cinema shooting taking place, Oh

In the campus? Oh, Okay. Campus.

because of forest atmosphere. Okay, okay.

And, this is the Krishna where we stayed first, this is Cauvery.

Later, I went on to become warden also there.

And, Professor Chaudhri was a

very kind man; he was just like a fatherly figure.

He took care of us. wWater flooding used to take place,

water will come into the room

in the monsoon time. It happens even now, sir, once a while.

Holi, was for me, it is a novel experience,

we were all ducked in...

our north Indian friends used to be very exuberant. Yeah.

So, when I am bit shy or withdrawing,

they will definitely chase me. Yeah, yeah, they will.

So, they have a...they have a prey there, Prey.

right? If you by yourself go to a water,

they are not so much, right. True, true, true.

Ragging was very minimal,

though some students

were I remember dismissed...our juniors,

three of them, for doing extremes of ragging.

Some four or 5five students were dismissed,

that I know very well.

Yeah, now we don't even hear about that. Even at my time,

that was...there was more friendliness rather than ragging. Yeah,

true, true. That is good. And,

these are the hostel.

4.5 years we stayed in Cauvery,

0.5 we stayed in Krishna.

And, we have to walk, there was no tarred road.

It was a kachha road there, will be full of thorns,

and imagine, your cycle gets punctured

and you have a bag, night, water,

no light, we have to walk through.

In the dark. dark.

That is why, Professor Sengupto

was really kind to us, whatever we ask, he will give.

Because, we did not complain.

We put up with the trouble,

I won't say trouble,

some inconveniences Inconveniences.

in a very gamely way; nobody used to complain, Correct, correct.

people used to be happy. Correct.

And, NTR movies used to be filmed,

I am not joking.

The fellow will go on a chariot,

and singing song, because of the forest atmosphere, right.

And, this is about general,

Okay, okay. our undergraduate

Good, good, good. beginning.

Anything about your academics? Full of...it was swarming with Germans.

Where there any Indian faculty

those days, in the department? Yes, yes we

were very fortunate because,

senior faculty used to take our classes.

They didn't have research. Okay.

Very, very senior - Professor Ramasastry,

Aravavamudhan.

Professor S. K. Srinivasan, of mathematics. You should be

very, very fortunate to hear their lectures.

We were very fortunate because

senior people were coming, E. G. Ramachandran,

where they didn't have much to do,

so, they took our classes.

Okay. And, that way we were extremely benefited.

Many of our classes were taken by Germans. Okay.

For example, physics, Professor Koch took it.

Yeah, professor was eventually, Professor Reddy was... Maths, Professor Hahn, took math.

He used to give grade like d to the power of minus 6 tending to 0,

limit tending to 0, right.

Okay. It was very unique experience.

next, go ahead. You had this common courses

only for 1 year or extending into the 2nd and

3rd years? Up to two and half years.

Up to two and half We had a 5 year course.

Okay. So, up to two and half every student of every branch, Yes.

goes through the same curriculum. Same.

eEngineering background. So, two

and half years is what you would study

your departmental subjects, is it like that? Oh, yeah.

More or less. Even in the other two and half,

some parts we study, professors from

chemical engineering took our classes, Okay, okay.

electrical engineering took our classes. Classes.

and Good, good, good, good.

some common classes were there. Oh, okay, sir.

Much more of, I think, general engineering. We did physics,

Professor Ramasastry told me in person,

"I have taught whatever that could be

taught for an MSc Physics,

I do not know what else to teach you people."

Is exactly what he told.

He was also a very good teacher. Things have significantly

changed in all, sir. Things.

If you look at the current curriculum,

we recently, about 3 - 4 years back we changed,

where we see that, only 15 percent is basic sciences,

15 percent is basic engineering,

then about 45 percent is your departmental,

professional courses,

which includes your projects,

which includes electives and core everything,

and then, about 18 percent free electives now. Okay,

so, the students have a freedom to choose

anything from other departments;

that's more nowadays.

So, because they want to give the

freedom to students to see that. But,

I have a strong opinion

that, without good physics,

without good chemistry,

without good mathematics,

you cannot do good engineering. Correct.

True, you are right, you are right. You will be a messed up in

engineering. I completely agree with you, sir.

You want to do good engineering,

your Pphysics has to be sound,

your chemistry has to be good, Correct.

and, your maths, reasonably

at least, Fortran analysis, you should be able to handle.

True, true. If you can't do that,

Now there is no Fortran you will not be a good engineer.

anymore. Whatever you try.,

you can become a village blacksmith,

but, not a good engineer. True, true, true.

What about your Metallurgy department faculty? Yes,

this is the faculty. Over all faculty.

Professor E. G. Ramachandran is the senior most man.

Very early he got his PhD from Sheffield.

And, they all have... I

heard that he had a record of having

a PhD, when he was 22 years old. 22.

That's amazing. They could have gone to any

place in the world and settled down,

they all came here,

and worked here. And we are all fortunate.

Really, yeah. That's the wonderful thing.

He also worked with a Nobel laureate

Sir C. V. Raman, I think, for 2 years.

And, he is a very,

what the best unique thing about E. G. is that,

its not about engineering and all that,

he wired our brain for more good thinking,

lofty thinking, higher things, Skinner's.

All his classes used to be fantastic;

he took us to a different level, but with one zone;

not mundane, foundry, ramming the sand,

and all that. It is very important

that the students' brain is wired for lofty thinking.

And, that's what he achieved, not the details.

Yeah, I heard that when he teaches physics of materials, Details is not important.

Yes. I... It's amazing, people say.

I only feel that it is not been recorded. Every day,

end of it, it will be like a detective story.

In fact, the NPTEL lectures that we have now,

if they were there those days,

I mean, the students would really... I tried to record,

I called them, but such facilities

Correct. were not there.

Now, now. The day will end

like a detective story. He will say,

"tomorrow we will see how Skinner solve the problem."

You know, So, you will wait for the next day.

whole of Schrodinger's equation,

still is etched in my mind. Wow!

wow, wow. He got up only once.

To take the wave equation and

put down the potential function.

He just said, "this is Schrodinger."

Amazing. Still it is there in my mind. I am a foundry man,

I know. I have nothing to do with physics,

but it is etched in the mind, So, good.

you know, etched in the mind. Good teachers are like that.

So, other than Professor E. G. R., who were the others, sir? He

started industrial metallurgy, very unique thing,

because Chennai is having lot of auto industries,

and that time, auto parts.

So, he formulated industrial metallurgy,

putting, not going into too much theoretical metallurgy,

and all that, in NDT, heat treatment and all that,

it was a great success.

Just to ask there sir... Vasudevan.

you knowm now, recently our department

has started a new programme,

an MTech in industrial metallurgy through e-learning mode.

So, that anyone who is in industry,

who has some BTech or a MSc background

can sit in their industry,

and listen to lectures which

our faculty give in the evening hours,

Excellent idea. 4 to 7,

so that, they don't need to come out of their industry,

and get an MTech degree.

Excellent idea. So, they just come here only for the

convocation, nothing else. See,

So, all the 10 courses, You see,

they sit there and learn.

last 13 years, I have been doing consultancy. Yeah.

I take classes, half of the classes I teach in Tamil,

because the local students don't follow. Ok. Yeah, yeah. I understand, I understand.

But, I tell you, there is an enormous desire

for them to understand the metallurgy True, true.

of the processes they are doing,

they want to know that. Good.

And, IIT faculty and students are in a very unique

and I would say very very fortunate position,

you are all exposed to the very latest.

True sir.

You really don't understand how I know, I know.

fortunate you are; only when you go out,

True, true. I mean going there,

and they want to learn thing.

Particularly with the recent facilities, sir, Yes.

you will be amazed. Yes

Whenever somebody comes from overseas,

they say, "wow, what kind of facilities that you have."

For example, our Metallurgy department right now, has

a Titan, the highest end electronamicroscope with 1 angstrom,

in fact, its 0.6 angstrom resolution;

and, we have got another machine which

is an atom probe, local electrode atom probe,

with about 32 crores we bought it,

which is again first of its kind because,

I know, you are doing very good work, yeah. it can be remotely operated. So, the

whole world, I mean, it's very rare to see a

titan and a leap in the same building in the world,

very few institutions have this.

It's a very, very fortunate You don't even have it

in chemistry. position that people are here in.

Good sir, you were talking about Professor Vasudevan.

Professor Vasudevan, he was a very friendly person.

Within very few minutes, he will give you the feeling

that he, of his scholarship, of his gentlemanliness.

Very sound, his lecture. He got

first teacher award for more than

8 or 10 times in the... Wow, wow.

In IIT, it is tough. I got, maximum I got was 8th rank,

Hhe got first some 6 or 7 times, he got.

Okay. And, the best thing is,

But, you were also known to be an excellent teacher, sir;

many students tell me.

But they were giants.

Ahead of me, there were giants, literally giants. Okay.

Okay, okay. Right. When compared to them, I think, I dwarf myself.

Sreenivasa Raghavan, a man of very high integrity, a no nonsense man.

When I was the head of the department,

I will definitely, I will take his help,

whenever moral, ethical, integrity issues are involved,

I will send him, "sir, it is your field."

Whenever there is something wrong done,

he will make sure that things are done properly and correctly.

He set very high ethical standards,

out of the way, because, you know, outside it is,

the whole thing is rubbish.

But, here, he is setting about very high ethical standards.

Surrealistic. Absolutely surrealistic

and he will set impossible standards.

Anyway, that is K. S. R. for you.

But, very fine gentlemen.

They all added a touch of class to the department.

If they were not there, I would not have joined.

I would not have joined.

They all gave you a feeling

that this is the sophisticated department,

it is a high class department.

I am not going to do anything wrong in being here.

right that is. But, those days, I think,

typically after BTech, people must be joining

some industry and things like that,

what has made you come and do PhD? I went for

post graduation. So, you went for a post graduation outside?

Institute of Science. I did mechanical engineering. Institute of Science.

Okay. Mechanical in the foundry? Then, I went and worked a couple....

Wonderful place, sir, I mean.

I then, went and worked a couple of months

in Coimbatore in foundry.

Okay. And, that was an Alfresco toilet,

so, I just couldn't stay there.

So, came back, E. G. said, "join up."

I had admission in University of Michigan,

to go. In the meantime, Professor E. G. said,

"you may like to stay back."

Kind of indirectly. Didn't tell me...no, not that way,

indirectly encouraged, "you may like to stay here."

I continued, they sent me to DAAD scholarship

and all that, I continued.

So, you joined as a faculty and then did your PhD.

Yes, in those days, at, believe me,

After master's, I think. At 24, I became a lecturer.

Wow. 24. It's impossible now.

With an MTech.

With an M. Tech. Not even a PhD.

Because not many. Now, PhD is a must.

Not only a PhD, PhD with 3 years Postdoc is a must,

according to the new MHRD rules. The things were lenient, they were

lenient that time and continued.

Only, I was doing foundry. Foundry.

It is Professor E. G. who fixed up

one Professor Eberhard Mundry in Germany.

And, he said, "you go and get trained with him

in non destructive testing, it will be very useful for us," and I went.

That's how you have interacted with many... And, Eberhard Mundry was

extraordinarily sincere and good man.

I was fortunate to have good teachers.

Okay. And, he trained he took it upon

himself, as a personal responsibility, to train me up,

I don't regret it.

I make a decent money. Yeah, I heard,

everybody tells that you have started NDT

Yes, yes. in our department.

Not only that,

I have also started American Society of

NDT Examinations - level 1 and level 2 and level 3... Okay, okay.

to help those BScs and MScs,

ordinary BEs, who could not get a good career,

they could do this and even go abroad

this thing, and earn very good lot of money.

Certification done...American certification done in India,

I was one of the first person to start it.

And 100s of them are

now employed throughout Middle East,

Ok. Singapore, Malaysia and all that;

that is one good thing, I suppose, I participated in.

So, when was your date of joining, sir, do you remember?

1968, March.

Here as a faculty?

3rd March or so. And... 3rd March.

3rd March is a very important day, sir,

3rd March is when IISC started.

Okay! J. R. D. Tata's birthday,

here we celebrate. August they promoted me

as lecturer. Both of us have that connection,

I was also a student of IISC.

But those days, for faculty, were there

any advertisements like the current days?

It will come. So, they they were all selected through advertisements?

Professor can... They used to advertise for a specific areas

or not like that, generally? No, metallurgy, that's what I saw,

but I was admitted temporarily as an associate professor first.

And then, they have, thing was regularized

in the lecturer advertisement. So, what were the

hierarchy those days? Associate lecturer,

and then lecturer, Lecturer.

assistant professor, associate and...

So, there was associate professor also, those days?

Yeah. No. Except for some period, there was assistant professor

there. And there was one And, directly professor.

unique category of senior professors.

Only Professor E. G. Ramachandran occupied that post,

nobody else. Okay, now, they call it as a HAG possibly,

something of that nature, okay.

And then, there was Thambiran Ramachandran,

and he later became the principal of Surathkal.

Okay. Beautifully taught you the latest,

very latest that time, dislocations, ternary diagrams.

And, he is also a man of very high integrity.

Uncomfortably, very man of high integrity,.

He taught us things way ahead of other colleges.

Even way ahead of Germany.

I went there. Wow.

Even they didn't have dislocation courses. Wow.

And, he taught us. And, there was one Muthiah,

geology teacher. I specially mention him because,

very boring subject. Exceedingly boring subject, Yeah.

all minerals and... Correct.

But, he used to make it very interesting,

in a very jovial way. Correct.

He was in Civil Engineering department.

Very affectionate, uncomfortably affectionate one.

There was one Dasgupta.

He was a very young man, but bald;

for him the baldness suited very well.

He taught us mechanical metallurgy.

And, he had a unique way of teaching,

he will close his eyes during teaching. Oh.

Even if you want to get out, you can get out.

And, he was quite a, quite a person.

And we have of course,

as a colleague K. A. Padmanabhan came in.

He was...came in like a,

what shall I say, the...

I should have told,

he came in like I wouldn't say china and a bull shop,

but he brought in a lot of expertise.

He opened our eyes to what we can do,

as young teachers and researchers,

he really opened it out.

I think, his coming

showed many of us what can be achieved,

you know, sitting here. True.

And, he showed new horizons. He was very well known for research,

he was very well known for research, I think. Yeah.

Not only that, he literally, see, he

he demoed what is possible.

Wonderful. He was a good addition.

Though, some of his expressions

can be quite uncomfortable.

I said, Churchillian humour with roughage,

but if you ignore it,

he was a tremendous addition to the department. Till then, Yes sir.

That is the. it was slumbering, floundering.

Okay. And then, he just kicked everybody in the rear,

and said, "get going!"

Wonderful. He shook everybody, you know.

And then, just one or two more. Sure, sure, sir.

I out of thing, I appreciate Aravavamudhan,

he took my inorganic chemistry classes.

And, whenever we solve the problem...

supposing, I solve it in a different way,

some radiation, I don't remember,

and he will appreciate it,

he will say, you know, "look at the creativity of this fellow."

And, he will tell in the open class,

"see, you all have done this way, this guy have done this way."

Quiet man, exceedingly quiet man,

but he had that academic deepness.

Fair enough. I appreciated it.

Veluswami, he took our dynamics classes.

Very affectionate guy, person, I shouldn't say guy.

He was our warden also for some time,

he took dynamics classes

and he was also a very friendly person.

Professor Ramanujam, I cannot forget mentioning his name.

There are two Ramanujams,

I am talking about the ore dressing man,

senior man, who is no more now.

And, the best thing is, he showed how physics,

how equations, for example, Stokes law,

they can be very well combined with engineering.

It used to be absolute enlightenment,

how engineering can be done with good physics,

and good mathematics, good understanding.

I think, it's a good example for all.

Mot much relevance to my metallurgy, not much,

but, I used to enjoy his classes

because he used to tie up physics

so, beautifully...it will dance,

physics will dance in his class.

And, at the end of it, you will appreciate the engineering idea.

Wonderful, wonderful. Right, that should be the way.

Wonderful. I really admired him.

S. K. Srinivasan took our maths classes.

A very low tone voice,

but, if you listen carefully, you will be benefited.

I distinctly remember C. R. Muthukrishnan asking him,

"sir, Fourier analysis assumes,

it's only a periodic function from

minus infinity to plus infinity,

then how can you apply it to a impulse pulse?

The explanation, transformation he showed

in the integration is still, it is there in my mind.

A brilliant student with a brilliant teacher,

the effect is IIT.

S. K. Srinivasan, later he took some classes on number theory,

evening classes, I especially went and attended it.

This gentleman is the one who introduced

me to NDT, Professor Eberhard Mundry.

And, he came here for 6 weeks,

we conducted NDT classes and all that, it was full.

At the end of it, he commented,

"all the German professors are having it light,

visiting professors, but you made me work," he said.

He introduced NDT as an academic course,

academic programme in IIT

and you know, how it has taken off,

many of the CDs I have made are based on his...

Their English was not very difficult for you to follow, sir?

Or, you learnt German from him? I know German,

bit, enough for koffeeklatch, I can't boast much,

I attended his classes in Germany. But, they their classes

were all in English?

He is quite good in English,

and whenever he has problem in the class, he will ask me

for the thing. That time, you must realize, how Germany was

in 1971, '72, '73, it was a beaten country

and they were very friendly,

they wanted to be appreciated by the whole world. Okay, okay, okay.

And, they were taking the extraordinary step

to be nice to us, to teach us.

He took it really as his responsibility

Wonderful, wonderful. to put the thing together,

we made very good notes.

Right. Professor Koch was our German professor.

He came to the first class, I remember,

he said 'zat plane,' okay.

Germans, they are talking about jet plane,

we all wrote down 'jet planes.'

Then finally, we found 'that plane' he was pronouncing 'zat plane.'

He, no derivations, concepts.

He will make a wheel rotate and jump on it to show,

we all used to be afraid, the old man should not get injured.

The precision, gyration he used to explain,

he had lot of demo things brought from Germany.

He used whole focus used to be on concept.

Concept. E. G., they, they are the ones who wire the

brains of the students,

Not the boring teachers. I mean, how to say?

They are the ones who wire your brain for better things

True, true, true. in the career.

Scheer, I can't, but mention him.

He took over drawing classes

and later, he was a turbo machines man.

3 semesters he took drawing for us.

Even today, I can tell you,

I can read a drawing happily without problem due to his training.

He used to insist that my letterings,

number should be at 70 degrees.

Thorough Germanness; if you want to see German genius in action,

he was the one.

He he really taught what

what is the difference between Germans and others.

How beautifully they do things so carefully,

so punctiliously. No class is simple class for him,

no lab class is simple for him; full zeal,

Full energy he will put in, even for a simple

45 minute lecture on bolds, not coming, no.

great sir. Great They all really impressive.

great teachers those days they are. Scheer,

if that doesn't teach you about German thoroughness, nothing will.

Klein, he was a kind of a jolly good person,

he taught us German, he used to come well dressed,

gold rimmed glasses on those days,

quite a handsome guy.

But, he was great very popular with the students.

Ebert associated with the workshop,

he used to be a terror,

we lost some good students

because of the toughness in the thing,

quite a good, I remember, I don't want to name them.

They were very good, Andhra University first and all that,

but just because they have failed in workshop,

they were asked to leave, that was somewhat sad,

because, they would have made an electronics engineer,

everybody need not use hacksaw blade and

we all felt bad when that thing.

But, then, he was strict,

you got to do, you have to chip,

you have to machine, no question, he will walk around.

Professor Anantharaman, you have to mention him.

He took us industrial economics;

full of jokes, students loved him

and all the programmes, your

all culture, he used to be the main figure.

He was a great hit,

and he used to crack jokes in the class

bit on the other side,

but, people used to love it,

people used to love his class.

There was one Dr. D. V. Reddy, he left subsequently.

He took applied mechanics

and he was great hit with the students.

Students will shout, "joke sir, joke sir" and

he will crack a joke; he was good and he left.

There was one Gangadharan, a very diminutive figure.

I mentioned him because, he took applied mechanics.

Again, a brilliant teacher,

I still remember his Taylor series expansion,

McClaren series expansion, right;

uniquely excellent teacher.

Later, he went to Thailand

and I heard that he settled down there.

Dr. Swaminathan, he was my great friend.

Physics teacher he came with the bow

bow tie and black coat to the first class,

taught us diffraction, you know him well.

And, diffraction, interference and all that.

Later, subsequently, he became, he left all this thing.

He used to be very friendly to me,

and particularly to me,

and we have spent many evenings in Bangalore together.

He was a bachelor till he died.

And, a fantastic fellow to know, unlike any professor.

There was one Professor Varma in chemical engineering.

Very methodical person, I used to admire his very

beautiful way to present things, very systematic

and I also liked him, chemical engineering.

There was one Seshadri who left, he was in chemical.

Very flamboyant figure, he will come to our hostel

and demonstrate Colorado movie and all that.

There was one Professor K. I. Vasu in metallurgy.

He was also in IISC, no, sir? IISC later.

He became director of CECRI.

Affection incarnate right, he is such a friendly guy. Yeah,

he left by the time I joined.

Yes. He will, if I have a problem, So, I have not...

he will make sure that he can,

he will extend some help to the extent he can.

Very nice person.

Among the directors, I admire this man, A. Ramachandran. Why?

The reason is, he set the tone for research in IIT.

Before that, it was purely an undergraduate institute,

he set this direction for IIT to go towards the research.

And. I think, I think, all that beginning is what

now paying us, we got, last 2 years, a number 1 rank

which is majority basically for... He used to encourage

young people. He will walk around research.

and whenever a young person is working,

he will go near him and encourage him.

"Is there any problem for you

to get stores?" He will go and ask.

Very good, wonderful, wonderful. Right.

Very rare person. Because of his personality,

academic personality, many people have left their jobs

from abroad and joined here.

Sheer personality, force of personality, I mean.

I used to admire him, he doesn't know me much.

I know. When I mention these people, as a student, I admired.

True, true. Do they know me? I was a small fellow.

True, true. After all the BTech, you know,

what made you choose teaching as a profession?

Are there any people or some Well,

my experience in. that you want to share with us?

foundry was not a good one on the health front.

As I said, professionally, I was happy.

There was one Belgian expert,

he was designing the things and he didn't know mathematics,

he didn't know how to use slide rule,

and so, I was helping him.

So, it was a good interaction.

I was doing the gating design and all that;

every night we used to sit and calculate.

I was learning a lot,

but, as I said, it was in Karamadai. Okay.

And, it was Alfresco toilet, there was no decent toilet.

Oh. You know animals will be around.

So, I told them, "I need a decent toilet,"

they said, "we give only to foreigners, not to Indians." Oh.

Then, I said, "okay," and came back

and asked Professor E. G. R., E. G. R., E. G. R.

Okay. "can I join?" He said, "you're most welcome."

Professor M. R. Seshadri. It's a boon,

boon to our in in department, I think.

Indians Any a discomfort for you

in Coimbatore became a boon to IIT Madras. Professor

M. R. Seshadri of Indian Institute of Science,

whom again, I admire a lot. He taught me,

ferrous metallurgy, ferrous foundry. He called me,

and said, "if you are going to join as a teacher

why don't you come here?

We have a foundry section,

and I know, you can do a decent job of teaching.

Why don't you come and join us?"

But my family situation is around Chennai.

So, I told him, "I would rather be here."

And, that is how, one toilet changed my career.

You wanted to talk about your friends? But,

I liked my stay in the industry. Good.

It was steel industry.

And, you know, metallurgy is And, you are still

full of metallurgy. connected with the industry, yeah, I am aware of that.

Every day, I used to go home only at 11 o' clock in the night,

see the last pouring

You are a rare academician, see it is defect free and then go home.

who is always connected with the industry. I love this.

I love to do. Friends, C. R. M.

He was our deputy director here,

he was a star in our department, you know?

He was a teacher for all of us,

I am very shamelessly telling you.

Right, if I have any doubt,

we won't even go into his room,

there is a window, we will all sit there,

from inside he will say charge is there,

this calculate that...Very generous fellow,

We all admired him for his scholarship

and brilliant mind. I have seen,

when all of us are struggling to get pass mark,

he will come out with a distinction

or near 100 percent, right?

When you are beaten in a straight competition,

it is very easy to admire a man.

There is no second thoughts on his brilliance.

Kripanarayan, he was in civil engineering first,

he is in a big time fellow now.

He designs all seismic...his only complaint is,

that lot of IITians in US

are doing very well in other fields other than IT and teaching;

"why you are not giving Distinguished Alumnus Award,

even though they are applying?"

The one complaint he had when I met him last time in California,

and I am just telling, just a thought.

He feel there are some...only there you are looking

at IT or teaching profession,

you are not looking at any other.

He has developed earthquake free buildings,

and they are all, their software's are very popular.

He says, people are not looking at those contributions.

And, I said, "did you apply?"

He said, "yes, we do apply,

but we are simply pushed aside."

Mahesh, he is a close friend of mine,

he belongs to the TVS family.

His Go-Kart was very uniquely popular on the campus,

he designed a Go-Kart by himself.

And, we used to go, I used to go on his Go-Kart,

he is a close friend of mine.

We also made a semi

semi-working a blast furnace for the department, in those days.

And, it was there for a long time, till they threw it out.

He is an engineering genius.

Three process control - pressure diecasting,

brake lining, gravity diecasting he has introduced,

and all of them are working exceptionally well. Alright.

K. Narayanan, also known as Ghost.

He is the binding force for 1965 batch.

I can't think of 1965 batch without Ghost, alright.

And, he is keeping all, the whole flock together.

Even now, we get in...

"oh, Amitabha died," I get information immediately,

Patnaik died, I will get the information.

Is he the same person...chemical engineering?

Yeah, yeah, very good, okay.

He is a very nice fellow,

no caste feeling, no religious,

no, no silly things, he will hug everybody; a beautiful fellow.

He is my friend J. Vivekanandan.

A unique story, we both studied in Ambasamudram

together in school,

and when I joined IIT, he was standing there,

I said "what are you doing here?"

He said, "what are you doing here?"

So, he did his thing, he is right now

fabricating very good systems

for food processing and so on, and brilliant fellow.

Kapoor, I don't know this man personally,

he was my classmate in 1965 batch,

but, I really appreciated him because, he started the film club.

He will go all the way to Mount Road,

bring that 60 mm thing on his bicycle.

He used to sit in the veranda of Building Sciences,

civil engineering and he will yank it up,

it won't work. And, then, we were always seeing the movie,

that's all the entertainment we had,

that is how our movie club started

and... OAT was there those days?

No. It started only in '64. No OAT. Okay.

Okay. And, it used to be the only entertainment for us.

I know, I know. Games or wait for Saturday evening Kapoor's movie.

Okay. He will bring some movie.

Good. Yeah. We all used to look forward to it.

So, you so, that tradition is still continuing. What.

Even now, it is Saturday evening movie for us.

See, what an enterprise,

for a young man.

When we were all struggling for my cycle,

for my education thing,

this guy goes on a bike, brings the movie,

shows it to all of for nothing,

not even an applause,

right? That, I call it the spirit of doing things.

That's true. Right? That is about IIT.

You cannot, but admire him.

I don't know the man,

probably, he also doesn't know.

That is about the thing.

Good good sir. Sorry, I am talking too much.

No, no sir its. Lot of interesting things. These topics are too close to me.

What were the major facilities, those days,

you know, in the department?

Not much, not much. When you look at it,

not much. Not much.

And, the projects, do you have a lot of industry projects?

Industry used to put in money?

When I was a student, there was practically no facility.

But, when I came as a faculty, there was quite a few Okay.

facilities were available,

but, not research category.

Okay, you left in '98, you know, sir or?

'98 I left. Yeah.

July 29th, my birthday, I left. '98, 29th.

Okay, okay. 60 years.

60 years, okay. So, so, those days,

basically, the major facility, electron microscope...

these things were there, those days?

Were there. Were there.

SCM was not there. SCM...

Professor Gokulrathnam, we used to hear a lot about him.

And then we had facilities.

Okay. The problem with a Metallurgy Department is, it was

too much fragmented. Yeah, even now,

So. That didn't...that we are in five different buildings.

didn't help us to have a synergy.

Correct, correct. We are trying to move into a new building, sir. So...

that, you told me that. That would be of great help. Very soon, very soon.

That's true. The synergy, that you meet your colleague...

like, when I worked in Singapore,

some quantum mechanics guy will ask me,

"can you melt this alloy?"

That synergy was absent to work together.

Lot of sponsored projects used to be there, those days?

DST? Where, which were the sponsoring agencies those days?

DST used to give DST used to give.

a major portion. Major portion.

UGC used to give something like grants,

they never used to bother about our report. Now, UGC doesn't give

to IIT because, IIT is under MHRD

it is not under UGC, so.

And Germans used to have a collaborative agreement

for some sort... So, all of you used to

go to Germany often, faculty? No, I went twice.

My problem with Germany is...

See, all my friends who went to US,

have developed very good professional contacts,

excellent professional contacts.

US, you are able to put yourself in an equal position.

In Germany, you are always patronized.

Okay. And, it is very difficult to get, you are always a newcomer,

and, you don't build.

I told this even to some German officials.

I have been there 2 years, totally, together I spent,

but what is the professional contact I have? Nil.

Even now, I am treated as a foreigner.

Whereas, I worked 2 years in US,

I have much better professional contact there.

True, true. Sir.

See...yes? Hello. Mr. Muthuraman Tata,

was he your classmate? No, no,

he was junior. Junior.

I see. He was a good cricketer.

And, even I am...

I recommended his name for Distinguished Alumnus Award,

even before he became all that famous. Correct,

correct. And, he is, you know, the vice president of

TISCO and all that. Yeah, he was a gem.

He is now settled in Bangalore.

He retired from Tata Steel. sir.

Yeah. I recommended.

Correct. In fact,

even Dr. Krishna's Das Nair was the first batch, I think, sir? He is

senior to me. 1 year senior to you, first batch.

I heard. But, we were all in the same hostel.

Oh Yeah. Okay. Nair, me.

Santhanam, Natarajan, all were in the same hostel.

You also had other roles, some administrative roles?

You were a head of the department for some period right? So, I was head for 3, one.

Warden I was there. You were a warden.

I... '87 to '90, I think, you are head of the department?

Any of those days, do you remember,

any major changes? Well, I would...

tried to bring. Okay. brought in a lot, lot of money I brought in.

Okay. Because I had a very good stores officer Chari.

We used to get all the papers ready.

In February, there will be a rush

because, there will be lot of money,

no effective programme to spend it.

Okay. So, the director will be asking in the senate, "do you have any plan?"

We will go and give it and

get. What was the level of funding you used to get

for the department? Can you tell me some number? Very low, very low.

3 lakhs per year for 25 faculty members. 3 lakhs per year.

For 25. So, there were about 25 faculty. 3 lakhs. 25, 27...

3 lakhs. So, just to tell you now,

it's about close to 2 crores.

1.6 to 1.7 crores, is what we get per year.

Then. I mean, that includes what we call it as,

you know, recurring, non recurring put together.

So, that's about one point for our department.

So, significant improvement and we are about 31 faculty now.

Okay. We... So, number of faculty did not increased much.

Never. Many of us But, the amount of funding has significantly.

never used to depend on department money,

Yeah. we used to give it off

True, true. to the head to spend it.

True. And, that money you used We used to depend on.

to distribute to all the faculty? Those 3 lakhs? Yeah, each will get

some 15000 or something.

So, their spare parts and all they can buy. Now, each

faculty gets almost close to about 1.5 lakhs.

Oh, that's a decent money. 1.5, that's the department...

in addition, of course, people have their own projects,

many of them. But, the end of the audit year money,

I got close to 2 crores to the department. Okay.

In fact, Professor Srinath told me,

"you are walking in with papers and

going away with money, what's happening?"

We were perfect. I knew the system.

We were perfectly ready with the papers,

quotations, everything; Chari was an excellent stores officer.

Right. We got, put the paper, get the funding,

because, nobody was ready.

What...all good equipment, we got SCM like that.

Yeah, yeah good. Good, good. All good equipment we got.

We got, we got that instronic,

instron machine we got it under that.

I myself bought a computer system for myself,

DOS based, 2 and half lakhs at that time, I bought it.

Any important experiences as a faculty you want to share?

Important experience. It was a good run. During your period?

The students were simply brilliant.

I have taught in Singapore for nearly 8 years,

no comparison. How were the PhD students?

You used to have a lot of PhD students, those days?

Good students. I mean, they were given scholarships and....

I think, all of them are now in US. So, so they...

Chinnathambi is in US.

Madhusudhana is in US.

Venkataraman is working in air force base in Hampton.

All have done very well.

Krishna Kumar is the present head of CAD centre,

he was my PhD scholar.

All have done exceptionally well.

Prasanna Kumar became a professor here,

T. S. Prasanna Kumar. Then later, he went, Yeah, yeah, he retired recently.

he became the head of the department. Institute of Science, he was also my student.

He was also with Tata Steel for sometime, I think,

what are the. Yeah he, He was brilliant, no doubt about that.

I mean, see one German professor told me, is brilliant.

"there are brilliant people all around India;

we have no doubt about it,

but when we take an IIT student,

we are assured of the quality, nothing more."

"See, I get from all backgrounds, Yeah.

but, we have to select. Yeah true.

He is good, though I select."

"There are brilliant people everywhere, True.

but," he said, "when you take an IIT student,

the average is assured to me."

That's all he said,

"the average competence is assured."

What are the major changes do you see over the years?

You left the institute '98,

its close to about 20 years now.

So, when you come to the institute and department

do you see things are changing for good? Yes.

Yes, I feel that the orientation is going from

the conventional industrial metallurgy, that is the thing because,

all the young people want to be in the main flow of research

that is taking place in the world,

they want to be in nanomaterials, tuff ceramics and all that.

In addition, we are doing a lot of work on steel, sir, for example,

just for your information, recently ministry of steel gave

I saw that, I saw that. 35 crores to us,

Centre of Excellence in Steel tTechnology. That's a very good development.

Particularly, as you rightly said, because auto industry is here.

So, this is A very good development.

a very good development.

Very good development, excellent development. Okay.

Ultimately, our country needs very good

old fashioned metallurgists. I go around,

True, true. we don't get many.

Many, all kind of charlatans and fakes are there, right.

We don't have a good seasoned metallurgist, we don't find.

There are few, they are all my own students or friends,

they are all there, not many, less than 5.

Any other memories you want to share with us?

Let me see whether I have any, my memory is not good.

Right and...IT, AI and robotics, 00:51:4,140 --> 00:51:15,720 everywhere they are introducing.

A time was there, when we were going towards computer department.

Now, they are coming to us.

True. This is the change.

And, all the IT, they are looking for application fields,

they are coming towards us. Earlier we used to go

to Muthukrishnan and all, now they are coming to us.

I think, department may like to think of,

say, artificial intelligence, IT, automation robotics

in NDT, all coming in a big way.

I think, you may like to position yourself. Sure

sir, sure sir. So, that our students also feel

True, true. good,

not conventional metallurgy. Sir, just to tell you, sir,

for quite some time, till now, I would say, till the last year,

we have what is called dual degree programme.

For example, if somebody joins in metallurgy, he goes

out with a BTech in metallurgical materials

engineering and MTech in metallurgical materials engineering.

We are starting a number of interdisciplinary MTech programmes. Excellent,

excellent. Okay, where somebody joins in metallurgy, let's say,

goes out with robotics as MTech. Excellent.

It is needed. He has BTech metallurgy, MTech robotics.

So, similarly, automation, data mining, okay,

I mean, big data is one and AI.

So, these are all the areas where we are starting. Correct, true. See, they are coming to us.

Its good time for us to position ourselves. True,

true. See, earlier, I had to go then, FORTRON

/400, I have to give the card, I have to be like standing in queue,

now, all those guys are around us.

"Right, do you have any good project to do?" That's true, sir, that's...sure.

Let us do. That Sure, sure.

puts in some sophistication to our field.

Physically fragmented department, I told you.

I think by next That is the main issue.

June we will be in our place. This is, this has...

otherwise Metallurgy department would have gone much farther.

Surprise...this is, just I put.

Peer group, this is a best thing I had in IIT,

the discussions I had in the bathroom,

in front of the bathroom, in the corridor, with my friends

they were the best discussions.

I had one friend Amitav Pattnaik,

he used to explain to me martensitic transformations,

both used to be in our lungis and towel.

Right, and the way he explained it is

far whatever was taught in the class.

Wonderful. True, true. The peer group is what makes the difference in IIT.

What teaches the IIT student -

Aim high, compete internationally,

give way to superior talent;

somebody superior comes, give way,

don't go stop him,

that's one thing we learn.

There are people who are above us. Correct.

So, when a superior guy comes

give a way and applaud him,

that's what I have learnt in IIT.

Because, we are all good,

and, even among the good, there were some better, right? True, true, true.

So, we have to applaud him. True.

There are no other way. True, true.

Do your job well. True.

So, the next man who comes to my job,

should know, he has to exceed that. Okay.

True, we have to set... Comments I receive when I go to industry,

they have they they always tell,

the undergraduates have a problem to work with others.

I received this comment not less than half a dozen of time,

they have some issue. They are willing to work IT,

but you put as a group and ask them to develop a design,

they don't do well, they have

some air and all that.

There are lot of IIT students who are not very good,

they suffer a lot by comparison,

there were guys who do very well in

California, make millions of dollars.

Let's not forget they are equally good number who have not done well. Okay.

And, many of the students are

off late, they are not interested in metallurgy, some students,

they come here just to get a seal, IIT Madras.

True sir. And, we are wasting a lot of money.

True, sir. This is a poor country

and... I will just share one experience of mine.

I used to teach these first year, we used to have

an introduction to metallurgy and materials engineering.

So, one of my goals in that class was, at the end of the class

to ensure that not many change their branch

and then they start liking metallurgy

to an extent. That they don't feel like changing That's a good.

the branch. So, metallurgy is exciting, sir, really. It's a good thing.

Exciting, but... Only thing is, people always

compare them... I can give you lot of instances

where students have made caustic remarks.

They would not like to do anything to do with

metallurgy in their life,

they will just go to business administration, or computers That's true.

"I am just here to get your certificate," they will tell to me. Correct.

Correct. I will give them a seal,

"you are a great guy, IIT product, you know."

Another thing I find is, you have got all bright students, nerdy students,

it may be good to get a Nobel Prize,

but, if in engineering we must go forward,

we should be like Cambridge.

We should admit some high level politicians

from various countries, their children,

some industrialists' children, because the combination will do very good.

I myself can tell from experience.

Supposing, imagine, a very big industrialists' son

is a friend of one very bright student,

they get together for 4 years;

the combination, just like Cambridge, Cambridge does it beautifully.

There are certain admissions they do

for people who are technically or scientifically or politically...

because, only study...he is a nerd.

You put all together, they go out and to life,

he can get a Nobel prize.

But, engineering needs some wealth. Correct.

It's wealth creation is engineering.

So, IIT should think...it is, there is nothing wrong

f a big industrialists' son is admitted

so, that he is put in touch with good bright student,

they become friends and that can be

an explosive growth for India...because this guy has the brain,

this fellow has the influence and money.

We should try to...Cambridge does it.

Cambridge does it, right?

How our all big politicians children go to Cambridge. We have to check.

Combination is good. Yeah. Whereas, here, everything is through JEE.

Through merit, merit, merit. That fellow may not.

Good. You can get a Nobel Prize, That's where the problem.

But engineering is not about that. That

businessman's son may not come to JEE. Finally, we have to create wealth in the society, right?

I understand. This, I am very clear

about it, because personally, I was benefited It's a good idea sir yeah.

by some of my friends who are well up in industry

Later, they used to call me, "why don't you solve the problem?"

It puts you in a very good position,

because, he appreciates you, you are with him as a student,

he has got a very high opinion about you,

he says, "come and do my job."

IIT Madras, very good peer group, I have told you;

staff and students are very fortunate,

unless you go out you will not realize it;

and can we do a cricket in research? This is my question.

If I look at our bright cricketer jumping around,

can we do a similar thing in research?

What...look at Kohli,

Jadeja flying. In my days,

the cricketer cannot even bend to pick up the ball,

they used to be fat, right? I don't want to name.

Pakistan versus India, 1965 I went and saw,

the opening batsman could not bend to pick up the ball.

Now, you can...look at, look at the way they are flying. Yeah, yeah, it's good.

Can we do a similar cricket in research?

I think, reasonably things are happening well, sir.

Well. But the, you know... We are well known...

uniform comment I receive when I go abroad,

from Japanese and all that,

"we are not able to use your data fully,

we are not, it is unreliable data,"

the one comment they make very often.

I say, "we are producing so much of data, why you are not...?"

The comment Japanese professors make very sharply

to me, "we like your ideas,

but we are not able to use your data."

But, we have to take it seriously. Seriously, sir.

So, we have to assure data integrity

when we do it.

There is no question of saying I am good, he is bad, no.

We have to assure it, because, there is a general feeling

and we are spending a lot of manpower, energy.

And, all our equipment have to be third party inspected,

I am very very clear of that. True, true, true.

They have...we have to bring in thing, check our

machines for their calibration,

sensitivity. No, we shouldn't do that,

we should bring...so, for example, Instron

it should be calibrated by outside parties Yeah.

and then, like NASA, where I worked

for 2 years as a contractor.

Then, that data becomes valid

and, lot of value is attached to the data...

two minor things.

Professor Nigam once told me, when I was here,

he was also my maths teacher, he said

"your job is at the table,

don't go around the conferences and jump"

he said; very good advice, at a very young age,

and I was only hardly 24, 25.

Just we were walking,

then I said, "I joined sir," he said, "very good,

remember one thing, your job is at the table,

don't go about attending conference and getting award,

that is not your job," he said,

struck me very well, right.

But, one thing you should appreciate,

I received good advice and tried to follow.

Alumni, I was thing...we did a few things in alumni.

Present, I am now a consultant to few...

I make multimedia educational DVDs. Yeah.

This, you're very famous with. Yes,

I also introduced level 1, level 2, level 3 for NDT - it's a great success.

All animated, all phase diagrams,

I have animated, they are selling very well.

Many DVDs I sell. I also make an equipment

called acoustic analyzer for testing components.

This also sells well and that's about it.

Just sorry, I... Mamata, you want to ask some things?

You didn't mentioned anything about the

Indo-German project with Padmanabhan,

what was it about?

The project was essentially to modernize the laboratory,

and he had one Instron machine.

And, essentially, to upgrade, but they call it as

upgrade the metal forming laboratory facilities.

So, it was not...

then, later, they took up one specific project,

initially, it was upgrading, the upgradation of the laboratory.

Sir, not for, I am sorry, metal testing or anything like that?

It was a metal testing. crepe and all that, the what is it?

Not crepe, metal forming.

I see, mainly metal forming? Metal forming.

Fine, sir, fine. Metal forming they did superplastic materials

and all that, that is his specialty,

super plastic material, they were doing all that.

Professor O. P. There are some photographs of your time,

Yes. we wanted you to just recognize them,

and maybe, you make a few comments about them. Yeah.

That is metal forming unit for extrusion.

another one. And, this is second one,

is in the metal forming lab.

This was set up by Professor P. Venugopal.

Yeah. Famous. And, he is a very well known

expert in metal forming.

Can you recognize the man who is doing the testing sir?

Not much. Not much. Not much. By any chance, no? Okay, okay.

But, the units are all Professor Wagener,

not the vibrations' Wagener, there

was another Wagener. Okay.

He was also a very...he developed the laboratory very sincerely.

Professor Venugopal was closely associated with him. Okay.

They set up all these facility. He is fashion about...

really. Yeah, extrusion and all that facility.

And, this is a unit that is Till there

This is still there. yeah, this also metal forming.

And, these are all old type...

nowadays, people have changed the electronics everything, considerably.

And, this is again, German equipment

for high temperature testing and so on.

Metal forming, deep drawing and so on...

they have so many areas.

And, these two, this is a contact pyrometer

developed by Professor H. Mohammed Roshan.

He was my very esteemed colleague. He...

He is coming next month, here. Yeah,

he comes every year. We both decided on fine morning that we will leave IIT.

He went to US and I went to Singapore.

Yeah, okay. Right and hard worker,

Yeah he is also a... beyond imagination.

see. And, this is again, forging facility.

See, that cup and all they do.

This is also, I think, some Metal farming facility. Yeah.

So, foundry someone doing there. Pyrometer This is again, the yeah, this is again, the pyrometer.

this is rather the same. Go to. Pyrometer.

Sir, right side.

No, not that, this is done. No, not that, not that,

below, below, here, yeah.

No, no, third one. Someone pouring that's...

Professor Roshan developed a unique process

called fluid sand process,

where the sand doesn't need ramming and so on.

Okay. And he did it, oh god.

and, he did this thing, he patented it.

And, they, I think, they made,

I mean, they sold it to foundry also.

Good. They are all similar.

They are all similar. Similar equipment, go down. They are all similar equipment.

Maybe, that one. So, this is possibly, This

is in the Mechanical Metallurgy department, shank Okay.

Okay. These are, you know, we do fatigue testing,

in a unidirectional... Okay.

These are all machines for bidirectional fatigue testing.

You can test the, an industrial component.

Okay. They had one smaller shank and bigger shank.

For a long time, we had difficulty in putting it into operation,

but finally, Germans as usual,

took it upon themselves and set it right

and made it functional. Very good.

This is an ordinary tensiometer. Yeah, tensiometer.

Tensile testing of a small sample.

Come down, there is a microscope.

This is the Zeiss microscope. Old. Zeiss

microscope. In fact, my old friend, he asked me

if this microscope is for sale, he will take it

as a museum piece for his factory. Yeah.

We all used to use it, it had projection facilities,

but later, I am told, it was refurbished

and it is working well. And now, we have very good ones.

Some meeting there?

That, I don't know.

That is E. G. Ramachandran.

See, how was young he is. The one is, in the centre, sir?

Centre, I do not know.

This is Srinivas Raghavan. That is Vasudevan, all young,

Very young. unbelievably young.

I would like to have this photo.

Okay. E. G. would love to have it.

Okay. Of course, too late in life.

This is again, this is an induction melting unit. Okay.

We had it, we used to melt a lot.

Professor Srikanta Kumarswami used to be in charge.

All kinds of alloys he used to,

he was specially brought in

for his practical knowledge for melting. Correct.

Melting, melting. Yeah. Even though, he is theoretically, he was, he had not studied.

People talk a lot about. E. G. R. specially brought him,

Steel making. Melting. so that melting can be done

for various researches.

He was working in Bhadravathi steel plant earlier.

Yeah. So, Chemistry lab. And, this is our Chemical Testing Laboratory.

We used to have a call, we used to

have a lab called Metallurgical Analysis Lab.

Maybe ore dressing. And, this is a regular microscope, Microscope.

they are counting.

That is Professor E. G. Ramachandran.

That is, I think, a politician.

Narasimharaya? No, no, no.

R. Natarajan you can see there, who passed away recently.

Convocation day. These are all various samples,

metal forming samples.

You can go to that one, this is... This is the convocation.

Who is the chief guest?

Chief guest, can you guess?

Sampath, Koch is there, Varghese, Sethunathan.

Professor Ramasastry. Yeah, if you tell me the chief guest,

I can tell you. Mr. Koch also is there in the...

Koch is there. You mentioned about Scheer.

Yeah, Scheer. Believe me, the whole Ebert, all those people seem to be there, sir.

campus was flooded with Germans.

yeah yeah yeah. We were fortunate.

N. V. C. Swamy is there, Professor Sastry is there.

As I said, Professor Sampath is there. Professor Sampath is there.

Really giants, I mean.

Incidentally, Professor Sampath's brother

was my guide, Professor Ranganathan.

Yes. I know very well, I know very well, I too know him quite well.

And, you mentioned about Professor C. V. Raman

teaching Professor E. G. R.

So, that way, you know, Professor E. G. R.

taught Professor Anantharaman,

Anantharaman taught Professor Ranganathan,

and he taught me.

And professor. Professor So, I am like a 5th generation connected.

Anantharaman also, I know very well.

Yeah, can you just go back,

he wanted to see one of them.

Sir, this one, yeah which is not so much here, no over.

The last one. Roshan, Roshan had some

Equipment. equipments

That was. This one. This is actually something which I share.

Okay, okay. We both took a patent on that.

Excellent. Okay.

Professor E. G. Ramachandran, Roshan and myself. Excellent.

This is actually some instrument I was using.

Ok. I wanted to use it further,

then, Professor Ramachandran said, "why not we patent it?

Collaborate and patent this. So, that is one of our

patents. We have a process called shell moulding.

And, the shell temperature has to be kept at

260 to 280 degree centigrade.

Okay. Otherwise, the moulds will be charred,

otherwise, it will be under baked.

For that, they, that time, we didn't have

IR cameras and all that.

So, this is contact eye. So, we used to use contact eye.

Roshan took a number of patents

and he was industrially very active.

Right. Yeah, This is the genesis of...

because general... Thank you, Professor

Professor Prabhakar. Wonderful. Thank you, thank you.

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Prof. C. P. Vendhan in conversation with Prof. V. Anantha Subramanian

It's my pleasure today to have a few words

of exchanges with my dear old colleague Professor Vendhan.

So, we were not only colleagues,

I was also a student under him while I was doing my PhD

and we have come to know each other very well.

So, with this brief introduction

I would like to get this interview going,

I would like to have a conversation with Professor Vendhan.

Morning, Professor Vendhan.

Good morning. Good morning.

So, this heritage series is supposed to bring out something interesting

for the viewers with regard to your own work and background,

your interests, your experiences at IIT Madras.

So, I should start by asking, please tell us a little bit of your

background from the school days on to graduation

and how you reached IIT Madras.

Ok. Schooling there is nothing much, I come from a village school,

but then I had my Bachelor's and Master's in engineering

from the Anna University College of Engineering, Guindy,

where I finished my masters in 1970; I joined IIT Kanpur for my PhD.

And, then when I finished 1975,

I went away to United States as a postdoctoral

fellow - University of Massachusetts at Amherst, Massachusetts.

I would say looking back, my career at IIT Kanpur as a student

probably one of the best in sense, that

I've learnt a lot and the academic freedom that

I enjoyed there I still cherish that. In fact, I often repeat to my colleagues here,

former colleagues here about that environment, as it is.

So, that way I would say that in my student career that was probably

the best, the golden period.

Fortunately, I had the opportunity to visit the University of Massachusetts

as a postdoctoral fellow and all my education has been

in the field of structural mechanics you can say.

Even my postdoctoral work was in the field of structural mechanics.

Although I had some - I used to peep into other topics,

but this was primarily in the field of structural mechanics.

By the time I finished my postdoctoral work in 1979 October,

I did not want to settle down in the USA,

I wanted to make a career in India.

So, I convinced my wife who happens to be a doctor

and we already had a 2 year old daughter at that time,

I convinced my wife that we will go back to India

and then make a career.

So, we landed in Chennai towards the last week of October

wife and daughter and me unemployed and then

I was sure that I'll find some job.

So, we settled down here, fortunately

our father-in-law's house was there in the place

where I am living now, nearby.

So, they were taking care of us.

I went around; obviously, the first

visit was to IIT Madras.

I went to different departments looking for some faculty opportunity.

Then somebody suggested I should meet the director

Professor Indiresan. In fact, they gave very

nice account of him,

radical change from the previous directors.

And so, one day I dropped in there and he was kind

enough to see me without appointment.

And so, I went into his room, he made me comfortable and

it was a stroke of luck: Professor V. S. Raju was sitting there at that time.

So he told him of course, I briefed as to what I have been doing

and what I did in the United States,

then he told Professor Raju, here is an young man

why don't you try him out in your department?

Obviously, we cannot hold a contract position like now

where they can offer a faculty position,

instead they said we will consider you for a research associateship,

you put in an application.

So, I did that. Meanwhile, I also had an interview at BHEL

R and D in Hyderabad;

there was an advertisement and a friend of mine

who worked there suggested that I apply.

So, I've attended that interview.

All this happened sometime in November - both the IITM

application for resources associateship and the BHEL job -

and sometime late December 1979,

I got both the appointment orders. One from BHEL R and D

for a deputy manager with a basic pay of 1450,

rupees 1450 that was a permanent job of course.

And, IIT Madras offered me a 1400 per month consolidated

research associateship; of course, it's considered to be a temporary, uh, slot.

I didn't have much- Doubt. -hesitation in

deciding where to go

because my heart was on an academic career,

where I can do research and teaching.

So, I immediately told my wife I am joining IIT Madras;

of course, she probably would have felt happy

because she can stay on in Chennai.

Ok.

And, perhaps expand her medical practice.

So, that is how I came here and I joined IIT Madras

and fortunately there were a couple of faculty whom I knew

like Professor Ganapati. And

so, that way, I was not a total - was not a total stranger there,

Professor Raju put me on the wave- not wave energy

project - the ocean thermal energy project.

So, he said that we will form a group

and you will be coordinating it

and I also started doing something on the floating systems

for the ocean thermal energy.

So, that is how my career with the IIT Madras started

and eventually there was a faculty advertisement

and then in September 1980.

I was selected as an assistant professor and

I - I joined formally as a faculty member.

Right.

So, that is about my entry into IIT

Right.

Madras.

So, on a lighter note

possibly your wife did not mind missing that rupees 50 extra

you would have got at BHEL compared to the salary that I -

No, at that time we didn't. After all, we have come back from US.

Yeah. So, you have some greenbacks.

Money is the last thing in your mind, you know. You are right.

So, that way.

You are right.

But, my aim was

to settle down in an academic career and- Right. -so, I

didn't have second thoughts before taking up this job,

although it was only temporary;

because I was sure that I will somewhere get an appointment. So,

In the academic career.

I think on the more serious side,

I would say that you were simply driven by the passion

and - Yeah, I would say that, I mean in fact,

my postdoctoral work was in the field of structure mechanism,

where I did some work in the field of

elasticity and I also guided that 2 MS students.

Right.

And, closely associated with a PhD student.

So, that way I already had a research guidance experience so to say.

Right.

Informally there. So, that way I was

looking for a continuation of that career.

Right. So, that is how I ended up here.

As I just said I know it is the passion in you

that has made you to take on many works,

I will come to that later. So, just now I will just pick on one thing;

you said you enjoyed your days in IIT Kanpur the best

and I remember you telling

time and again during our interactions much year later,

how you used to take your assignments on term papers,

isn’t it? Yeah. that's right. That's - IIT Kanpur

at least in those days, I don't know about it now,

Yeah.

they had a good many of the

important courses like the finite element analysis, then

a non-linear vibrations course which I took.

Yeah.

And, also I did a course on stochastic

problems which was started by Professor N. C. Nigam.

Who retired as, uh, Delhi IIT Delhi director,

eventually. He also has a book on random vibrations

and he also taught Professor Narayanan, he was his PhD guide.

So, all these courses had term papers and I took it very seriously.

For example, I did a very good term paper

Professor Nigam liked it on stochastic problems,

then for the non-linear vibration problems

out of my own interest, I worked on a very serious problem.

On non-linear vibrations of plates

and that was eventually published in as a full paper

in the AIAA that is Aeronautical and Astronautical Institute of America.

Yeah.

It was published as a paper.

Even as I was a student

and I was supposed to be working in the field of

non-linear dynamics of shells,

that was supposed to be my topic right from the beginning. Right.

And, I had almost spent 2 years by the time I finished this job.

So, then it occurred to me that I will switch over to

this non-linear vibrations as my PhD topic and

from then on I took another 2, two and a half years to complete

Right.

my PhD. So, I continued my work in that field

and then I finished my... So, you also in a way

went on to work in fluid dynamics,

although structural mechanics was your

Yeah. In fact. first interest.

When I joined in IIT

IIT Madras in the ocean engineering centre at that time,

it is well known that ocean engineering was emerging

Yeah. as an interdisciplinary area and it is a combination

of structural engineering,

foundation engineering, fluid dynamics

or hydrodynamics than naval architecture.

It is not a merely a combination of

people having expertise in each of these fields,

actually every one of them should have

some basic knowledge of each of these Alright.

sub-disciplines.

So, quite early in my career there I realized that

I should learn enough of each of these disciplines.

Yeah.

And, although I was only a structural mechanics

man, that is how I started very seriously

and an interesting thing happened at the time.

One of our colleagues at that time

who was teaching hydrodynamics -

in fact, most of the colleagues were from the

SYL civil engineering department there.

Some are of course, from outside,

they were teaching for example, Professor Raju and Professor Ganapati

came from civil engineering.

One in foundation engineering, other in structures.

Structures yeah.

So, like that we had a colleague

who was teaching wave hydrodynamics at that time.

So, he resigned the job, went away to Kuwait

and for some reason Professor Raju called me and said,

you teach that course. yeah.

I said ok, I mean the traditional response

would be no, no, I am a structural mechanics man,

I cannot teach fluid dynamics.

Since, I realized that I should learn enough of fluid mechanics,

I said yes and then I started learning.

In fact, if one has good applied math background,

switching over is not a problem.

Absolutely. And moreover as civil engineers we did study hydraulics.

So, that was not out of my memory.

So, I took it very seriously and then I started learning.

Then I went through a lot of important references in that

and again another stroke of luck

just at that time that was in the early 80s I would say,

one gentleman dropped into my room from ISRO.

And, said that sir we want to do

you to do a project on slosh dynamics. Slosh in dynamics.

I said I am basically a structural mechanics man,

no sir, somebody said that there is a one

youngster who has come from United States.

You try because the people in the aeronautics

department said no we cannot do it,

we've not worked in that area, we will not do it.

And, they went to even Kanpur IIT and

there also people said no we've not worked in this area,

we cannot do it.

When he came and talked to me I said ok I will do it,

because just then I was learning fluid dynamics and I said I'll do it.

And, then they wanted to develop in a

finite element based slosh dynamics,

since I had background in finite element

I readily agreed and that is how I became deeply involved in

fluid dynamic problems and eventually it became a fluid structure interaction,

that has become my mainstay

almost the entire career;

I was pursuing that; with my earlier strength in structural

mechanics and the one which I acquired during my career

in ocean engineering department in fluid mechanics,

it became my career in a fluid structure interaction.

Great.

That is how it happened actually. So, can I also

correctly state that your development those days with

regard to this sloshing problem was adopted as a

code there successfully in-

That's right. space programme.

No, it-it-it was ironical; they came to me, they had

in-house code on two-dimensional analysis.

Right.

And, since the launch vehicles go in

In fact, they were developing the PSLV

launch vehicle at that time, you know.

So, they these vehicles will go at an-

angle yeah. - attitude, angle,

they said they should do a three-dimensional modelling.

That is how they came to me.

I did not know the implications of that.

But, I knew that I can develop a three-dimensional thing. So,

I developed this three-dimensional thing and in those days

data preparation etcetera was big pain

in the finite element. Yes.

But they did use my code...actually. Yes yes

And, then after an year of interaction,

I forgot about them and they also forgot about me.

But, then we still had a good interaction

because one of the major projects we handled for PSLV

was in the structural analysis part. Ok.

PSLV second stage,

first stage and, the fourth stage.

They had requirement for buckling, vibration

and stress analysis. Right.

And, I had an excellent partner in my colleague in

I should say former colleague in the applied mechanics department

composite centre Professor R. Palaninathan

So, I knew him before from my Kanpur days.

I know you used to go almost brothers around. In fact yeah

People from IIT Madras in those days used to visit PhD students-

Yeah. visit IIT Kanpur because we had IBM 7044,

considered to be the biggest in the southeast Asia Yeah.

for their computation. And at that time I of course,

came in contact with him and we are friends actually

that is how I came back and refreshed.

In fact, ironically I should also mention the man who introduced us

to PSLV projects is none other than Nambi Narayanan. Ok.

And, he met us in their guest house in the

Poes Garden, they had a

Ok. guest house

at that time. Ok yeah.

I don't know how he caught our names,

he invited us there, both I and

Professor Praninadhan met him there. He said so,

we have - we are now developing the PSLV technology

because, just then they finished successfully the ASLV project.

And, he said that we have a requirement for

this research analysis, buckling etcetera.

And, in those days there were no package

programmes of the kind that we have today,

they had their in-house program and

we also want somebody else to develop parallelly

so that it will reinforce the project

and some day when the rocket flies,

I want somebody in Chennai to point to that,

I have been a part of that.

No, the more important thing is

you have given a very intrinsic contribution

you know. And, we said yes and that is how it started.

Yeah. Unfortunately, I never had an opportunity to meet him again.

Yeah.

And there was a big turmoil.

Yes. And, now he has come out of that.

Correct.

Probably when I happened to be in Trivandrum

So I had tried to

Yeah.

meet him and then

probably recollect and recapitulate this early thing,

that was the only one single meeting. Yeah.

After that the other people met us and

eventually this slosh dynamic thing also it came in. Yeah.

And, to end that slosh dynamic story, year 2010

I retired formally at the age of 65.

2010 May. And then

I was fortunate to get a appointment as a Emeritus professor,

a 3-year contract first and then a 2-year contract eventually.

And, somebody from in fact,

I would say that almost everybody except from some

older people have retired from ISRO at that time.

Who were associating with me in that slosh

Right. project, you know they have retired.

Yeah. And, some youngsters came here

and then they met Professor Krishnankutty

who is a professor, who also, he is also my former student - Yeah.

PhD student. They met him and said that

we want somebody to develop two-dimensional finite element model,

an exclusive model for our slosh dynamics

with some additional analysis requirements.

Yeah.

And, then they said - he said that, oh

Professor Vendhan who did

Slosh. your

3D work in the mid 80s,

Yeah.

He is still around. So, they came to me.

So, I have been part of that project.

So, I completed that and in fact,

they are using it for their PSLV,

GSLV they were very happy with that.

And, I am still continuing

I mean, there are remnants of that project in an informal manner.

I am still continuing. Yes.

So, that is I will say one of the most satisfying interaction

Yeah, I know.

with ISRO where they were able to do that actually.

I know, Krishnankutty used to say

that he is officially the coordinator, but you were doing all the work.

Yeah. In his modesty Of course

it is usually like that you know, very often.

Yeah. For example, even the project

we jointly did for DST you know

Right yes. On the small water plane.

Yes, yes You were doing the work and I was officially the coordinator,

but then that gave an opportunity to learn I am - I am very happy

- happy to think of that Floating body dynamics and all that

Yes. So in fact, I have

Yes. I was not merely

a paper head. So to say, you know

I was learning floating body dynamics.

Yes. And, naval architecture.

So, that is an opportunity - No, but in all honesty

I must also say that when I picked my PhD problem

possibly barely consulting you,

I forayed into the strapdown accelerometers and

deriving the motions which of course,

led to so many equations to be solved to understand. Yeah.

And, I used to go around in this institute to other departments

because you were on sabbatical or on leave at that time in USA.

So, I used to- No, I - I went away to Canada

Yeah. on

So. earned leave.

You know I was very brave, but I was not

sure, if this doesn't work, what do I do. But,

there I have to say you gave me a beautiful analytical

insight into the basic problem of resolving that initial value problem

you know. Yeah, basically I all learnt it on the job.

Yes.

I never did that before actually. So,

what I would like to highlight here right now,

I know you will be too humble to state it,

but I would like to state that with your clarity of thinking

that analytical thinking, one thing we used to see

in the department faculty or students,

research scholars across all faculty

used to make a beeline to you to resolve their problems.

No, in fact - my early days as a research guide Yeah.

Yeah. in ocean engineering

Yeah. was not without any thoughts.

So, all my students need to work on numerical

modelling and theoretical problems. Yeah.

And traditionally in fact, I would say that

although I may say it at the end,

but I will say it now. IIT Madras

was an extremely orthodox setup academically and

socially also. And, over the years it has changed.

Yeah. For example, I would say that Professor Indiresan made a break.

Right.

And, a drastic improvement came about

during time of Professor Ananth.

Yeah. The liberal thing.

Yeah. He - he is the one who used to

think very liberally in an academic and

Yeah. social sense.

So, that way my early days when

this orthodoxy of academic thinking was there, Yeah.

people will say, no experiments at all in your PhD thesis?

I will say no experiments.

See my strength is in theoretical modelling.

Yeah. and numerical modelling, and that is what I will work on.

So, there is no need to have an experiment. So,

for quite some time I had this problem. Right.

Even very recently some of the younger colleagues

came and reported to me this is what they are asking sir,

I said you don't worry. You give the same reply.

Yeah. Yeah,

please go on.

In fact, as I was saying the point

to highlight was that you used to happily share your knowledge,

your insight, your discussions with almost

anybody, which we were seeing all the time

take any of our - In fact, that is, in fact

Yeah. I- I was into this culture

from my student days in IIT Kanpur-

say, IIT Kanpur had an excellent computing facility.

In fact, I used to criticise our computing facilities in those days,

it is no match to that in many respects

and when we go to the computer center as a -as a group,

Yeah yeah. we used to work on - in fact, we took a

course on numerical analysis.

It was a compulsory course for all PhD students

and, we did 14 computer - Courses.

Not courses, exercises. Exercises.

You have to develop a code and then solve an example and submit it. Yeah.

So, you can see the kind of strength

you will get if you take it seriously. Absolutely.

That is the one which really gave us an inherent strength.

Yeah. And, while doing that we will always discuss with our fellow students

what problem he is working, what

Yeah. errors he got in his thing...So,

that mutual exchange and

Absolutely. sharing of the experience

was ingrained in me even as a student. Right.

So, it came in handy - so

Right. wWhenever somebody

some PhD student has a problem or faculty has a problem,

they will come and discuss with me. I will

in fact, very often I say that I may not be in your field. Yeah.

But, then the very fact that you discuss it with somebody else.

Absolutely.

will probably tell you Probably some

of the thoughts. Where you have gone wrong.

Yeah. So, I

used to give a passion sharing. Yeah.

Sometimes I learned from their experience.

So, that has been one of the good experiences

Yes. I have been having in ocean engineering.

I- I would put it that you are a

beautiful example of how to share knowledge because,

when you share knowledge you are not just giving,

but you are also getting as

That is right, it's mutual. there is a saying.

And for me that has been an example in my mind all the

time which is what I have also tried to do in mind.

In fact, I have never been very protective of even the codes I have developed.

Absolutely, I know that, yes I have always allowed people to use it.

Yes.

Even without acknowledgment, people have used it.

In fact, I am happy that somebody is able to use it.

Yeah. And, I am able to see the strengths and weaknesses

of the code that I have developed. Yeah. And I can improve on that

basically, that is the kind of thing I have done. Yeah. That that requires

a great courage, you know, to be able to say

try working then let us see if there is any flaw and we grow better out of it.

Yeah, rather than thinking that this is my code I cannot share because,

why I say this is it often happens in the

academic intellectual community that many people

take a disproportionate sense of possession of

what they are. Yeah. Unfortunately, I used to

criticize them, Yeah.

our colleagues, Yeah.

that we are unnecessarily very possessive. Yes.

I mean at least in the field of knowledge you need not be. Yes.

But, that has been the, I mean

I don't know by training or by nature. Yeah.

Many people have exhibited that kind of

Yes. possession you know, it is not good actually.

Which to me is not the true sign of knowledge. Yeah.

Because, knowledge brings humility and you are a good

person - personification of that

Thank you. which I would like to put here, yeah.

Because coming to these projects, I probably would like to say a

few thing about the projects I have done.

In fact, I have done a very modest number of projects

only, unlike some of the colleagues who have been

very very active including you.

In doing projects, in the ocean department. Now, you are putting me in light.

I have done very modest number

of projects and fortunately this has been

only for ISRO and the DRDO.

Yeah.

These are two major agencies for which we have worked

and ISRO I have already mentioned about the PSLV thing.

Right. We worked for about 5-6 years.

Although they were meant to be consultancy

projects, they were actually research projects

because they were spread over 5 years.

So, that was one successful project

where we were happy to see that it's being used.

Right. and you see things flying. In fact,

I think about 4-5 years ago there was actually one PSLV flight

the trajectory was oriented towards Chennai.

And, as I was going home around 4:30 in the evening,

I actually saw the thing; I was reminded of

Nambi Narayanan at that time.

Until then I never had a chance to point to the skies.

So, that that was a good thing

and the the next one was in the early 90s.

I think when Professor Ravindran

was the head of the department,

I was abroad with my family in Canada,

Toronto, Canada. I was not here and Dr. Kalam

who was the director of DRDO and then RCI. Right, right.

He was the chief guest. Yeah.

And, he talked to Professor Ravindran, he said

is there anybody who was worked with underwater things and all that.

He mentioned my name because I did a project earlier too.

The in fact, I was working with the Prithvi missile project.

Short project with that. Right.

So, I had some association with DRDO.

So, he mentioned about my name and Professor Ravindran.

He said, why don't you visit - all of you visit me in RCI Imarat

which is adjacent to DRDO,

we have something very important in mind.

We went there, I think it was probably a Saturday, I remember that.

So, the officer looked very deserted.

So, he said that we are now embarking on an underwater missile project.

It is a classified secret project.

And, we want you to work with us and then

fill up - DRDO is doing and they are only air missile

group. Right.

And they know nothing about underwater.

So, we want you to help us,

we said yes and then immediately said that.

In fact, he immediately he typed out the offer letter to us.

And, he read it and he found there was a spelling error,

he went in, he himself had typed it, corrected and typed it.

And gave it to us. And, he instructed

the one Kukilia was there,

he is no more, who was the project

manager at that time of this particular project.

He immediately said that take them to the launch site in Balasore

now itself, and then let them stay overnight,

look at the facilities. So, we did that: we

flew to Nagpur and then from there by road we went there,

stayed overnight, looked at all the facilities there.

And, then came back, that is Professor Ravindran,

myself, and Professor Chandi.

And, then we were on it and in fact,

for over 2 decades we worked on that

problem, the various aspects of it: the hydrodynamics,

Yes. data analysis, the stability...all that, you know.

Yeah.

And, they were constantly posing as a

problem and we have been working on it.

I mean for administrative purpose

it was probably divided into many projects. But

it was a continuous one, we worked for almost for 20 years.

Yeah.

And that was an excellent experience for us and then in fact,

they were very happy and they gave to this team

team consisting of Professor Chandi. Chandi

myself, and professor. Yeah. Battacharya.

In the year 2011, they gave an award called the

I know, I know. Academy excellence award, that was probably

the second year that was instituted. Right.

And they were very happy with this collaboration and that I would say,

in fact, now, it was much later it was made public,

the government acknowledged that we have an underwater

missile project which will be launched from submarines

particularly the nuclear launch submarine,

but at that time it was just a having a code called K 15.

I see. And that is what we are working on and that

I mean, matured into a real this thing.

So, that was a, in fact, a very Yeah.

I mean satisfying experience,

I mean at least you can say. In fact, when I left USA

only the Indians, Indian friends

used to ask me, you are going back to India,

leaving this career here. I said yes. Yeah.

And now, once in a while I hear some people used

to say when when I tell him during discussion I came back

from USA after 4 years of stay,

why did you come back?

So, I used to tell them, you see the kind of projects I am now working on.

Yeah. The PSLV and the underwater missile.

So, it gives me great satisfaction so, Yeah. Maybe

if I had remained there, I probably would have published

many more papers. Right.

Definitely I would not have this kind of a

satisfying experience. Satisfaction. Yes, yes.

So, that way I would say that that is the another

long term project in which we made

A mark- and enduring contributions and-

it was recognized by- from the Yeah, recognized, it was recognized.

But, we probably would not have bothered about that

I mean if there was no recognition, we would not have bothered.

The fact that something is flowing Yeah.

I mean flying

Yeah. was recognition enough for

at least for me. I know.

I would say. I know that.

I mean what you said is correct. Yes

Because, around that time, that is probably in the early

2010 or something like that, you know, I used to see some

emails floating around among our younger colleagues.

Yeah.

That agency like DRDO is getting a lot of help

from us and never acknowledges us,

so, you better be careful and all that. Ok.

I always thought it was misplaced. Right.

The satisfaction you get is what you have developed. And, then Yeah.

you see it is being used basically, you know?

The next project, yeah No, I just wanted

to emphasize because it's so important because in India

as I have seen it, our level of self confidence is sometimes in question.

We need the other person from outside the country to be- Yeah.

-to tell you oh you have done good work.

So, the recognition never comes from within till

That is right, yeah. somebody else outside tells you.

And, now there is a new culture they have yeah. We should change that.

And, it's important and I think these two

works you have talked of the sloshing dynamics,

spacecraft related and the missile programme related;

see, it is a beautiful way of developing our own confidence.

That is right. So, I think this message should go through this interview

that we need to build up that self-belief and self-confidence Yeah.

while still being rooted with humility

Yeah. and being open to questions.

I say this because I feel I see all these qualities in you.

This is not to put a word

Thank you once again. but to say that

this is so important for the scientific temperament,

not to hide things and also to be able to be open to questions

and to have the willingness to exchange and help others.

Yeah.

Yes, wonderful.

The two more projects, I will just mention before we go on to other points.

Yeah.

The third project we handled, it's not chronologically ordered.

Yeah.

The so-called tow transmitter body for the NPOL.

Right.

They want to tow a body underneath, it's about a metre long.

The towed array.

That will have.

Array was not in our perview. Yeah.

It is the towed body. It will send out Yeah

sonar signals. Yeah.

It will bounce on a target and the array behind will pick it up.

Right.

So, they are developing that.

A detection. It was a unique project in the sense,

they just gave the size of the body.

Right.

And they said that you develop everything,

the hydrodynamics of it,

the structural analysis, design

and fabrication. In fact, we have...at the

end of the project we have to deliver them the body.

Right. So, in that sense it was a total project

and again we as a team: Professor Chandi,

myself and Professor Bhattacharya, we worked on it.

We did a lot of hydrodynamic model testing

and a structural analysis and then design,

we engaged an outsider to do the mechanical design.

And the team did the fabrication using

titanium, that is what they wanted.

And then it was delivered to them,

again it was stretched out to about 3-4 years

and it was successfully towed. Right. In fact

it was stored in a project called Nagan

and even now I look back whenever I visit NPOL

and then, in a big group

some higher-up or this thing when I am introduced,

they will say they are the ones who did that Nagan body.

Yeah.

So, that kind of a recognition was there. Definitely,

yes. I mean that was fully satisfying that you have

done something which is working.

Right. Of course, now they are onto a bigger body and then

they are trying to make it work. Yeah.

So, this is another thing and in the year 2010,

when I started my career as Emeritus faculty,

interestingly, the ISRO came back to us again,

they said we are working on the so-called

human space programme, at the time it was called like that;

because the government has not formally approved a project on that.

But, they were developing in-house technologies,

different components of technology - that is how they work.

Right. They first explore the different technologies

and in-house projects, they get approval and then do that and then finally,

an entire mission is put together.

It is only recently as you must have seen

the prime minister set a target that in 2020 you should Yes.

just fly - this thing and this was called. Nagan mission. Yeah.

What is that called - Gaganyan.

Gaganyan.

Gaganyan mission. Where they will put a human in the...

Space and- An important component of that is a capsule.

Capsule. Capsule in which two astronauts will

Yeah. fly and go into orbit.

Right.

And, ISRO wanted to test

the impact dynamics of that and the hydrostatics of that.

The reentry.

Reentry. Yes.

I mean it will come under. In fact, they were working

on the American concept.

This is a conical shell.

And, the American concept is that will

it will be parachuted and it will come and impact on the-

unlike the Russians where it will land Land on ah

on earth. dessert.

This will land on water.

Yeah. So, they want to study the impact dynamics on water.

We said ok, we will do that

and we did scale model of that, we did impact test in our.

basin.

Basin. Yeah.

And then I developed a,

in fact, at that time they also wanted to test

the hydrodynamics, when this is floating.

and, exposed to wave, they wanted to find out whether it will topple.

Yeah.

They want to put some buoyancy spheres, Spheres.

whether it will topple and go down or how long it will remain there

Yeah.

until a rescue team.

Comes and- goes and picks them up.

Yeah.

So, at the time I had two choices: one choice

is to buy an expensive software to do hydrostatic analysis.

At the time ocean engineering

field there were some softwares available.

Probably 7-8 lakhs, if we bought it or if they bought it,

it would have been much more expensive. Yeah.

But then I said that I will simply develop a code from first principles.

So, I developed a code for hydrostatic stability.

Alright.

And, then I attached this spherical modules.

And, then we were testing, we just a

plotted the entire - calculate the entire

writing moment versus inclination angle.

And, then pinpointed

the hydrostat- hydrostatic stability characters of that. Yeah.

So, these two things were done and then handed over to them.

So, they were happy at least, the hydrostatics part.

I don't know, now they may be buying a software and doing it. Yeah.

But we made a simple in-house software

and then we handed over to that.

So, that was probably the last project I handled.

In my career and then my

stint as the Emeritus professor ended in 2015.

Alright.

And, then I was formally retired so to say.

Yes, but of course. And, I still continue of course.

You would not retire

you must be still going on I still continue, there is one PhD student.

yes. working in acoustics and then. Yes, yes.

Wave-guided acoustics of course. Yeah, yeah.

And, then I also spent some time in the NIOT group.

Yeah. In fact, that is what I wanted to also In addition

to being in the review meetings, Yeah.

This is an actual hands-on work. Right.

In fact, I am a person who believes in working with my own hands,

whatever problem I take I would like to make a model and then implement it.

Yeah.

Unfortunately, now that the skill is lost

because people develop skills in developing

in using canned programmes.

I. I don't have any complaint on that,

but as long as you use it wisely and intelligently, that is fine

because you cannot develop codes like that now.

So, when codes are there should do that, but then

I am bred in that tradition because

when you are students, there are no codes available.

So, you have to develop a, learn a numerical technique,

develop a numerical model,

code it, debug it and then test it.

Yeah. So, I was bred in that tradition,

I am still doing that and then that is what I am doing even for NIOT.

I am making small codes so that they can do it, then I told them that

I will tell you how to use the canned programmes using this as an input.

Right.

So, that is basically what I am doing. So, I am

still continuing that I am happy about that, I am still able to

healthy enough to continue that work.

I think it's also very fundamentally

important because the moment we lean on somebody,

then we are going to pay a heavy price.

One is, our own development will stop.

That is right yeah. will depend on that, the second is

these black boxes will never tell you what are the limitations in them.

Yeah, that is right. So, unless they come out with the better version

when they will say this is better than the old version.

No, limitations can bebe appreciated if you gain the expertise.

Expertise.

But, to some extent. In fact, I always say this.

Yeah.

The package programs give you an excellent

opportunity to become an expert. In fact, that is how I learnt

a lot of finite element modelling.

You can experiment your thoughts and then numerical models

using a programme that is already available.

It also...the other flip side of it, that also makes you lazy.

Yeah. If you know how to prepare the data, you will get your results

and, then pull on in your life. Yeah.

So, these are two - Yes. Sides of that

and perhaps people should use the other side of it

Definitely. you know, then you become really expert

Definitely,

no doubt about that. You learn the basics and then

look at the code and then what it does just go into the-

In fact, I always tell them whenever you want to use a code,

read the theory manual first

and the references that are given in that

theory manual that is how you become an expert in that code. Right, yeah.

Not just by making data and then getting a result out of that.

Absolutely, I wanted to get down to some other things that is

yeah you are talking of your interactions with NIOT.

Yeah.

You have perhaps handled some projects for them also.

in the course of development. Basically, in the field acoustics

Because. Professor Bhattacharya was the major thing in that.

But, I have been mainly reviewing things for them actually. Ok.

I was also sharing their acoustics group and then reviewing projects.

Yeah. And now of course, in my I mean hands-on

capability I am helping their deporter I think as it is.

Ok. But, then my interaction with them has been very

heavy. In fact, some of the senior people there

I have been in their recruitment interviews.

Yeah. So, that way I have a longstanding this thing.

Correct.

And, in appreciation of that they've also given

an award in the year 2015.

Ok.

The Ministry of Earth Sciences they gave an Right.

award, that is the Outstanding Ocean Scientist of the Year award.

Great.

I think Professor Ravindran was the brain behind that.

Yeah.

So, they gave an award, uh, That is wonderful.

to recognize that as it is.

Yeah. Yes. So, I continued to interact with them. Because they are very receptive.

So, I am happy as long as you make me feel wanted,

I am willing to give my Yeah.

knowledge and expertise

irrespective of the, I mean, rewards and

I am doing that still actually.

I have, let us talk of some other things you have

done at IIT Madras besides the teaching and research and projects. Ok.

What they call as the corporate life you know. Corporate life

as you were drawn into it as- I mean because of the

formal procedure, I became the head in the year year 1997 I guess. Yes.

I would say candidly that that was very uneventful,

I mean there is nothing much for me to do.

Yeah. Except that we were focusing on maintaining our

test facilities, excellent test facility that we have had.

Yeah.

And, when it was over sometime in year 2000,

3 - 3 years stint you know and I don't know,

it was a very strange thing; Professor Natarajan was the director at the time.

He called me, I don't know who gave him that advice,

I mean I was known as an academic entity rather than

a corporate entity. And a little bit

candid in some meetings of course.

Yeah.

And, everywhere I stress the need for basic

research and then Yeah.

support for that and all that.

For some odd reason, I don't know who gave him the advice,

but he called me and said would you like to take up the

Chairmanship. Chairmanship of the

Exchange. Exchange works committee.

Yeah.

For something again, I didn't think twice. I said yes.

Good yeah. Although, I would have repented

that in a lighter way in you know, as I went along. That was a 2 year thing.

Yeah.

But, I would say that I enjoyed it,

in the sense that I am basically a civil engineering Yeah.

graduate. So, the civil engineer in me has

come out I think when I was sitting there.

Right.

I was able to appreciate what they are doing and then correct them,

Right.

as it is, and Professor Natarajan was very very supportive.

Right.

That was a period when we took up large

projects in terms of renovating the buildings. Right.

Both in the institute, rather in the institute,

the quarters, as well as the hostel side, you know.

Yeah.

So, I was a part of that, that was a hectic task, handling lot of contracts.

I also brought in computerization of the design office. There

Right. We brought in a - we bought design projects,

design software and Right.

then we also had

The transition for the manual. bought some computers

Yeah. So,

I initiated that. And, we also inducted Yeah.

quite a few people into that. Right.

There was a dearth of this thing

and Professor Natarajan was very insistent

that our campus requires a cleaning, it has never been done.

So, I took it very seriously and then there was a

French company called Onyx.

Right. We got the contract.

Yeah.

And then, they did cleaning of this one.

In fact, I used to say with pride that I walked in

almost every dirty corner of this campus,

along with the representative from Onyx

to point him what cleaning he should do,

because they always charged by the weight.

Yeah.

I mean he will collect the trash

and then they weigh it and then IIT has to pay per ton, Yeah.

a few thousand rupees you know. So,

I did that, I took it very seriously and

a lot of people probably knew about me, the campus people

mainly because they would have seen me in the

hostel sector everywhere. Yeah. In the shopping center,

I will go to the dirtiest part and say remove all this dirt and then clean it up,

I did that. I also took up this lack of

serious water supply infrastructure. Right.

And in fact, we suffered and lived through that.

In fact, during my stint as the chairman, we had one of the worst

water shortages. We went through really - in fact,

some of the people still remember the

kind of things we have done in those days.

Yeah.

And, also our sewage treatment you know. Right.

That was also very dismal. Talking of that I remember,

you took the steps of deepening the lake.

Yeah, at that time.

Because of water shortage. You created a

supplementary artificial lake?

No, we had an oxidation point for name's sake,

nobody ever bothered about that. Right.

There's an open channel that will lead

from the campus to the Buckingham canal

via the Tidel park.

It was an open channel which was not kept up and of course,

near the Tidel park it was underground

and its oxidation point was was terribly outsized

because our campus size,

Yeah.

population has increased quite a lot.

So, as a civil engineer I thought we have to focus on that.

So, I convinced professor Natarajan to give Natarajan

funding. So, we built two large sums-

one in the institute area, one in the That is what I am saying.

Then we convinced the Alumni to

fund one of the overhead tanks in, near Mandakini. Right.

Right.

And, more importantly we have simply

closed that oxidation pond, instead dug up two bigger ponds.

And, then we also put entirely underground

some 1 or 2- 2 metre dia - pipes.

One and half metre I think pipes,

all the way from the edge of our campus to the edge of the Tidel park Right.

to carry this effluent of that.

And after that I think people in the environmental

engineering, they have taken that and then they have

put a new treatment plants and all that. Yeah.

Yeah, more modern treatment plants and all that. In fact,

I look back even when I happened to meet any of the

engineers in the engineering unit,

I make it a point to ask them. Yeah, how is it doing yeah

How is it doing, what improvements you have made. Yeah.

And similarly in the water supply side apart from this

I used to ask them what kind of chlorination do you do?

They said we use chlorine gas.

And, then if you may recall that once there was an accident and then

Even Vana Vani school was closed because, it was close by

where they are doing something.

As it was a foolish thing that we have been doing.

Nobody ever bothered. Basically,

it is a foolish thing that we have been doing.

And, then there is what is called hypochlorite solution

which is about 5 percent or 7 Percent. Yeah.

and that is what is usually used. And, then

they have switched over to that and they have

installed a plant which will inject

this hypochlorite solution and I assume that they continue to do that.

See, some of the things which I took out of my own interest,

but then I convinced Professor Natarajan to fund that.

And, then he had again like cleaning the campus,

he had the initiative to start the survey of the campus.

In fact, many of you must have seen those nice colour

huge maps at the road. Created, yeah, yeah.

So, this survey was done during that period. Ok.

And, we engaged a company in Bangalore. Right.

They did a modern computerized survey and then

And, created those maps. this one and then they handed over that

data. And, now they have put that in that

map in the digital form and then that continues to be used as it is.

Alright. So, that also happened during that period.

Right.

So, that way, there is a wholesome you can say in addition to renovation

Absolutely. we also modernized many of these things.

Yeah.

I-I know. So, that is that being continued now

actually. Right, in fact I remember because I was the warden of Alak.

Ok. And you gave me unstinted support in doing many things there.

Yeah, that is right Those days, putting wonderful

flooring for the mess room etcetera. Yeah,

that is right yeah Was not done yet,

but you gave me solid support, we could execute.

So, that is this 2 years as a SA chairman. Yeah.

Was a total this thing on my - drag on my academic career.

I actually did nothing.

Because most of the time I used to spend there.

Ok. But, then at the end of it I said ok,

this 2 years is well spent.

Yeah. I can always now revive my academic careers.

You have. You have less left there No problem. But, then I did something

Yeah. That is worthwhile and I can look back.

Yes.

Even now you can see the imprints of that

as it is. People have. You have a lasting

imprint in the whole campus. Yeah and

then people have continued on that you know. Yeah.

So, in that sense I would say that that was a 2 year well spent.

Although, it was non-academic and then.

Nothing. In fact,

immediately after that career, fortunately

Professor Ananth did not think of extending that,

I don't know what I would have said. And

my wife said that at the end of that no more corporate

assignments. By that time I had

to move out of campus because my wife left her job here. Yeah yeah.

So, I was commuting every day towards the end of my chairmanship.

And, one day when I was driving

when I was near the Mount Road during a -

Professor Ananth called me in the midst of dean’s committee meeting.

And, said there is a proposal that we

offer you dean administration.

And you refused. And immediately I said no, no, no.

Because what my wife said was

fresh in my mind.

So, I was You were allowed to refuse, is it?

conscious enough what to

say no and then fortunately that was not Ok, yeah.

revived.

Right. So, to say as it is.

I just wanted to put it on record again because, if you remember

the club staff club when I was also the professor Yes,

you did a nice shed. You gave me wonderful support.

Yeah, I wish that they had continued and then Yeah.

that has been alive.

Yes. But other for some reason

I mean We made a nice little kiosk there and. Yeah.

In fact, during my time Yes.

there was also a strong proposal to

demolish that shopping center, old shed and

Correct. then do that.

Correct. At that time, I think the funding

position things like that. Yeah, it was

People deferred it. Yes, yes.

And, eventually it-

It was. I am glad to see that it has been done eventually.

Yes, that is true.

So that's wonderful and I just wanted to touch upon one last thing there.

Let us come to the - you have seen a generation next generation of faculty,

younger elements Yeah. In fact, I have I would say that to summarize

this the entire stint Yeah.

of year 1980 to 2015. Yeah.

Initially, it was started with core faculty drawn

from mostly civil ah. Civil. Background

and fortunately in 1982,

you were part of the Naval Architecture group. Yeah.

With civil engineering at that time.

We had a very lively time. Fortunately, in 1982

Yeah. it- it has been annexed or amalgamated

Amalgamated. with

The-I think that was a wise thing so. Yeah.

We became richer by that experience I would say.

Yeah.

The knowledge of- Combining.

Naval architecture you know, Yes.

came to ocean engineering and then

the next generation faculty started

Yeah. coming in because the faculty who have been

trained in ocean engineering itself, either PhD or

postdoctoral work. Right.

So, that has been a good break from the past.

So, that was a positive thing. Yeah.

And you know, in fact, I see them most of them doing very well, extremely well.

Alright.

And, that tradition is continuing and fortunately Professor

Anantha started a tradition, that he will do recruitment

frequently and that is being continued now.

Yeah.

So, that we are able to get a fresh young talent into

our thing and also they had this contract appointments. Appointments.

So, I would say that this, ah,recruitment process

has really renovated our faculty thing what started as core

old timers who will be trained in the ocean engineering.

For example, I would say that I am

trained in ocean engineering, I learnt in ocean engineering on the job.

Yeah.

In fact, I used to joke sometimes

IIT has been paying me the fair processed salary

Right. for someone who has been only learning on the job.

In fact, I would say that the best thing I enjoyed

in my career is learning.

Yeah. That has been a continuous process for me, even today I do that.

Yeah.

So, that way most of the people earlier

were learning on the job. But, then

maybe beyond 1990 we started

recruiting faculty who were actually trained in hardcore ocean engineering.

Yeah. And, then that has been the greatest strength I would say

Right.

that has happened to our Yeah.

department. But, talking of

a teacher learning I think it's a very honest statement if you say

that a good teacher has to be a good learner all the time. That is right,

it is very very important. Yes,

yeah. Otherwise you get outdated in no time.

Not only that if you start

believing that you know everything, then you stop learning.

That is right.

So, I would say the ability to say

'I don't know' is a very important thing.

Yes. This is what I tell my students, I - I do hope you agree with that

philosophy. Yes. In fact,

you - I might have to said I don't know in my early part of the career. Absolutely.

At least when I came back after the lecture,

I would recall yes I did not know this.

Yeah.

So, in the next class I will definitely-

go back and tell them that. Yeah. So you learn and get

Better. Better and yeah. We do that in fact.

Would you like to, I know you wouldn't want

to give a word of advice,

would you like to give a word of advice to young faculty

from all your experience? No, basically what

I used to tell any faculty. Yeah.

If you think that you have strength in a particular discipline,

Yeah.

you continue in that one because, do what you do best.

Yeah.

But then, do things that have a high degree of difficulty

that I will give you the maximum satisfaction. Satisfaction.

Do not worry about the - take criticism

strikely and then you continue, if you do very good work.

Yeah.

Of high degree of difficulty, Yeah.

it certainly will bring fruits.

So, don't worry about that. Absolutely.

And, of the new crop of people who are using all these canned softwares.

You cannot escape that.

Yeah.

Because, that brings in the wisdom and hard work of

huge number of expertise-

Right, right, right. - experts, basically.

So, use them because that is the best way to use them for refuel problems.

Yeah.

But then, become an expert

Yeah. in using them and not merely a user.

Yes. That is another advice that I would like to give

So, that your conviction grows to the youngsters as it is.

Yes. So, that way you can - when a new version comes in you can really appreciate

Yeah.

what is the difference and in what sense it is a better code than what

you already been using you know. Yeah.

These are probably true advices I used to always give the youngsters.

So, I would like to reinforce that I think that is very

important, I absolutely agree with that. idea, yes, yes, yeah.

There is one more thing which I wanted to touch upon which I left out earlier,

your stint with the naval research board

as chairman of the hydrodynamics. Yeah. In fact,

I remember in our work with DRDO,

Yeah.

I remember that in one of the review meetings in DRDO,

conducting DRDO, Dr. Kalam simply walked in.

And, then he said that he was a very informal man,

he said that we want to set up a center.

of excellence which will do hydrodynamic research.

Right. Because DRDO they - is going to develop

more and more, this underwater missiles and

we want to learn underwater Right.

technology and develop it.

And, after coming back Professor Bhattacharya and I

put together a small document

where we can set up a centre in the ocean center.

Centre of excellence and the funding requirement things like that.

And, it was probably lying with the government for some time.

And a couple of years later

maybe at the initiative of Dr. Kalam himself,

the government came with a proposal. To set up

this, I remember one Dr. Siddharth discussed that

in the - our IC and SR building

in the new NIOT that has

just started, it started here.

So, he spelt out the goals and then

Oh. the panels they are embarking on, and things like that.

And, Professor Ravindran has become the head of the so-called

hydrodynamics panel.

Right.

And, I was a panel member at that time Yeah.

as it is and then we

when he eventually relinquished that and became a chairman of the board,

I became the - Head of the - Panel head.

and then I had the opportunity for about 6 years or 7 years.

Yes.

I was managing that and then

reviewing the new projects and then reviewing a project progress.

So, that has been again a great learning experience, I would say. Yeah,

I would like to ask one question with reference to that

because you always had the philosophy, correct me if I am wrong,

that research should be open ended.

Yeah, in fact. It's not just my philosophy,

the - Dr. Siddharth when he spelt out this,

if you go back and read the

the naval board or research document objectives, it always says that.

Yeah. It should be open ended.

Right. It should be high end.

Yeah.

It should not have any immediate application,

it should have only long-term application. All these are

spelt out, although now there are forces which are That is what I am asking.

pulling it away. That is why I am asking.

But, this is what -ah- has been spelt out there.

So. And, we often - whenever I recommend a

project with - people sitting there try to cut it

short and then I recollect and then reinforce that

goal and then we always encourage Yeah.

this open ended, Right.

high degree of difficulty projects as it is. Yeah,

because as you said now, there is a slight

change in that thinking that they want it also to be application oriented.

So, my interpretation is the difference between science and technology.

That is right, yeah. Because, you need to have their technology

for which you need the science, to understand. Yeah.

So, I-I would then say that don't we need to guide

But, I think the-the-the members. In fact,

if you remember a new panel was started in the field of hydroacoustics.

Right. Hydro and vibro acoustics.

Yeah.

So in fact, I took that initiative

a few years ago, but the main support came from Dr. Bhujanga Rao.

Yeah, right.

He was the director of NSTL and Yeah.

then eventually became director general of naval systems.

So, he always sits in the board meetings.

And, in one of the board meetings I made this proposal,

that it is a very important area and very few people work.

And, if you have a panel we can now try to enlarge that

and then he readily supported that.

And, then I went through about 2 years of exercise

making presentations in different groups and then I finally submitted that

and it was approved. And, eventually

Professor Bhattacharya is now the panel head;

I am of course, I am also a Right.

member there, reviewing projects.

So, I tell him that whenever you attend the meeting

please look at this tendency of the people to

pull you back to purely application oriented projects. Right.

And, then tell about this this thing maybe

they have a point that we have been in existence for several years

Yes. so, there will be some application, that is fine.

Right. But the main goal of open ended, high-

Is to get the fundamental research. take a research, should never be diluted

Yes, yes. you constantly put forth this point and hopefully you will continue on

Yeah. at least some few more years with that goal

in our mind as it is. Right, I also

want to bring to the viewers one other another aspect in you,

you have a wonderful sense of humor

Thank you.

Which I have heard from so many, very

intelligent jokes that would come out.

Let me just share one which you will also remember,

you know there was a time when our road had

little, little potholes and what not and of course, the city roads

are far more beyond control.

So, there were as usual our IIT colleagues

mouthing loudly how to maintain the city roads.

So, you told me very nicely

we cannot manage our 10 kilometers of road and we are

telling them how to manage the 100s of kilometers outside

I-I like that down-to-earth way of- No, even

sitting in the engineering unit as a chairman, Yeah.

I always used to criticize those people.

Yeah.

We have a small campus and a big setup

With lots of money . we still find so many shortfalls:

leakage here, pothole there, that is just not possible. Yeah, yeah.

I mean we lack something somewhere. I used to tell that actually.

So, like this there were so many other jokes I remember

which was always fun you know, cutting across barriers. And,

the most important I would like to again record is your

absolute down to earth humility,

the openness, the willingness to interact with anybody

at any levels and absolute gentlemen.

Thank you, maybe I will close with an anecdote.

Oh, Please.

Perhaps it is for maybe two of them for for a record's sake.

You know early in my career as I said

my students work only on numerical modelling.

Right.

And, we had only the so-called IBM PCXT and AT.

Some of you may remember that.

The tabletop computers just came in. Yes, yes.

PCs came in and we were having only - XTs were a lower end and ATs were

Yeah.

And even if you have in fact, we had only 1 XT

in the entire department. I know.

It will work all the 24 hours.

And, my students would do

photon coding, large-scale photon coding. Yes.

And, they were discussing - M. Tech students of course.

Yeah.

They were discussing among themselves,

hey, does your guide know any coding at all?

He is asking you to do so many codings.

So, he was not sure and in one of our meetings

I mean, since I was open with the students,

they never had hesitation to tell this to me.

So, I said that I have done a

lot of coding right from my student days. So that

I do a lot of coding, although

I know that some of my students do better coding than me.

Yeah.

But, I have done a lot of coding. Yeah.

So, I told them that and the very first visit to IITM

campus, looking for a job after I came back from USA,

I went to the director’s office,

there was the director's secretary; I forget his name.

I told him that I would like to meet the director,

he said no, no unless you have an appointment you cannot

Meet him and you cannot get an appointment in the near future.

Then I went out and then took a slip

of paper and then I said that I am Dr. C. P. Vendhan,

postdoctoral fellow University of Massachusetts, Amherst.

USA, I wrote it and then I gave it to him.

He looked at it, immediately he took inside.

And, he said wait for some time,

he will meet you. You got your appointment.

I got my appointment.

Because, of all your - And, then I started my career.

right right.

I -I don't know whether whether it I would call it as a bluff or a

true thing. Definitely not a bluff

But, that is what has happened actually. Yeah,

that is wonderful yeah. So, it's been so, nice talking,

I-I think we can conclude at this stage.

Thank you so much.

Thank you. Sir, can I ask for some questions.

Sure.

The - you said that 83 some,

it was some funding was came to me, ocean engineering part

I remember 83 silver jubilee year,

the director signed agreement to Germany for about 6 major projects.

Yeah.

One of your project season was in my field. It has Ok, ok.

ocean engineering, material science, and about three others.

In fact, why I am asking is I think that was the time when the Germany

started funding the ocean engineering. Yeah,

they gave a large chunk of money too. And, do you remember how much

funding? I don't remember the amount

probably. Maybe 5 million Marks or something right.

Yeah

In fact, almost all the test facilities- Something of the order of 5

million Marks, is what I remember. And, who was the coordinator if I make any

It - it was I think, Professor V. S. Raju and Professor Ganapati

were the main people who are handling it.

We were all working for it of course.

But, whatever you see there by of waymakers

- waymakers and all that,

they all came from German funding, actually and-

Since you are working with the ocean,

you know long long ago over 60 years back

looking at the article which appeared in one of the journals,

I wrote an article: Chemical wealth in the Sea.

The idea was how do you recover magnessium and bromine

Ok ok, that is deep ocean mining, yeah.

Does your department have any interaction with the CSIR land.

No, actually, the NIOT you know, national ocean technology

has a department working on ocean mining.

If NIOT. NIOT they have done great strides,

they have recovered sample, they have a crawler.

And, some of the colleagues in ocean

engineering department work with them on different aspects of that.

They work for some chemicals. Yeah, in incidentally I am now

a consultant just for a short while, working with them

and, one of the problems I am looking at is pumping of the slurry,

all the way from the seabed to 5000 metres up the surface.

And, I am trying to advise them on who can do that

hydrodynamic problem and also this deep water cables, etcetera;

I am helping them with that, but they are the ones who are doing work.

I see. Ok of course, they have collaboration with NIO Goa who have recovered samples.

But, these are the people who actually put crawlers

on the seabed up to about a 1000 metres they have put it.

Now, they are trying to increase on that, they have done

pumping from about 500 metres already.

They want to now increase it to about 1000 metres,

they are doing it step by step.

They are the ones who are doing hardcore work in this field as it is.

And, Professor Indiresan saw me in your department after the retirement.

Yeah, he had this soft corner during his term here as a director.

He had an - Professor Raju had an excellent rapport with him.

I know. He had the soft corner for our department.

In fact, he used to visit us frequently and even after

his retirement he had a - a honorary professor rather

as an appointment as a Professor with our department.

I would say that it is his blessing

that really helped the ocean engineering department

or center at that time to get a large

chunk of German aid and then also give priority in

many other things. -department here.

In fact, people like him also had the opportunity to visit under that grant

and spend an year in different German universities.

Berlin, yeah.

And so, the German aid is

was an inseparable part of the ocean engineering department I would say.

In fact, I must be thankful to your department in the sense in 1988,

I was already the chairman of JEE

and then I had to hold conferential meetings

and I could not think of coming to this place and hold all the way

from that place. So, the ocean engineering department I think

who was the head of the department

and they gave the conference room. Room.

The entire conferential work, I - we got it done. Yeah.

In fact, I am reminded since you mentioned about JEE,

I am reminded of an anecdote. We go there for counselling

Yeah.

on behalf of our department and a couple of times I have been there.

Right.

And, generally I will be very honest.

I would not think I am coming from

Ocean engineering, they will come for NIOT,

I mean naval architecture councelling

and if somebody has a very good

admission in some other good institution like Anna University etcetera;

I will advise them honestly that,

I will tell them the pros and cons and I will advise them

that that is a better opportunity.

And, about I think in 27, 2007 or 6,

one dual degree student who worked with me for this project.

On the day he finished his viva voce exam on his project,

he told me, sir do you remember you adviced

me on the day of counselling.

I and my mother were there, I had a

triple E admission in Anna University,

you advised me seriously to join that,

but my mother said IIT.

I have to be in IIT, at the only branch I would get this ocean engineering,

I mean naval architecture and then I am here.

So, I was really

I mean surprised that I-I never remembered that.

But, I have been generally very honest,

I-I would not mislead him saying that I-I also tell him,

you want an IIT stamp, be here.

If you want a-a good branch etcetera,

if you are very particular about that take that, if it is in a good institute.

Can I say that the ocean engineering department,

it is a department of I can say applied work,

most of the thing is applied work. Yeah, it is an applied thing,

but even there we have what is called ocean science.

Research and development.

that is right yeah yeah. Is the main focus of Ocean engineering, you could say it like that.

You know for example, way back

in the United States after the World War, you know

when many experts, scientists moved to USA like

Tymoshenko; they called...they started a discipline called engineering science.

Yes.

So, people are wondering in those days you know

what is this engineering science, that is science we know

where you do basic research in engineering and technology.

So, now, you do what is called ocean engineering science.

So, where people do basic work.

And then of course, you take it once you're further and make into

ocean technology and apply it for example,

what NIOT does and what many of our colleague do,

they are all ocean technology. Some do basic science

perhaps, I was in the border

between the two: science and technology.

In fact there in the initial stages of a department,

the staff were recruited soil mechanics. That is right.

Yes. then -.

Yeah, soil, structures; but I mentioned that- the-it was started the core faculty

who were drawn from the civil engineering department.

And, then it became a full fledged ocean engineering

center and then later a department eventually.

Today, we have even petroleum engineering.

That is right eventually there is a Petroleum engineering

which is still further from yeah. Further from that of course,

I - it is tied down- moved down to ocean engineering,

they call, what is called the - Upstream.

Upstream. Of petroleum engineering.

I mean upstream is actually downwards

I think it was a long time ago there was a lecture in geology

in civil. Civil engineering yeah. Muttaya

And, after he left I think the geology shifted to ocean engineering only.

No, even before that Professor

S. P. Subramanyam with geology background

moved and then he started working on marine sediments and all that.

And, these people have been managing

I think without him and I don't know I mean

making lot of arrangements, I don't know Thank you.

how they have been managing that,

but we did have a person with the geology background,

but focusing on marine geology,

sediments and things like that. And also in fact,

either one was put together a report on ocean mining,

this nodules on the seabed. He has put together a report actually.

I see now why I mentioned about

magnesium was that one of the one of the compound,

that you can derive from this magnesium is - plate.

It's actually magnesium, aluminium and some carbonated all that. Ok.

And, this particular compound is used in Germany,

they suddenly, in the name of the mineral itself;

it is called hydro tile. It is anaeonic plate

and in fact, another thing is, using this the central salt and mineral can be-

have tried to produce biodiesel.

Ok.

Biodiesel they have to use quite a lot of catalyst.

Ok. This is one of catalysts that has been used.

No, but you must have heard recent years about the marine hydrates,

gas hydrates you know. Yeah. So,

NIOT has a small activity on that.

But, in the ocean engineering department we have n colleagues

who are doing lot of research in marine hydrates.

So, if you can probably meet them if you are interested actually.

Ok, sorry for interfering in between-

No, thank you.

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