| IITM Heritage Centre

< Back

Prof. C.S. Swamy in conversation with Prof. B. Viswanathan

I would like to know, where you are born?

When you are born and about your schooling?

Ok, I was born in 1941

in a small village called Kuthanoor,

where the only...the Goddess Saraswathi's

temple is there in India.

This is in in the in the erstwhile Tanjore district.

But my father was living in a village

called Nachiyar Kovil, this is very near to Kumbakonam.

I studied all my school education in Nachiyar Kovil.

And then, from that I...went to Saint Joseph’s College, Trichy,

I did the M. Sc. up to that M. Sc.

I did in Saint Joseph’s College, Trichy. And then.

Then the Ph. D. in IIT. Yeah, yeah

See, the Saint Joseph’s College,

were you staying in a hostel or in? Yeah,

that is the...in those days, there were two hostels,

Clive’s Hostel and New Hostel.

Yes, yes. Clive’s Hostel is famous, and I was living in a room

called 93 because, 93 is traditionally

all my family members have lived there. I see.

My...my uncle is a Professor in Saint Joseph’s College,

he also studied in Saint Joseph’s College. Nice.

So, that is...the how, we came...and my brother also studied. Yeah.

In Saint Joseph’s in...he stayed in the same room,

I also stayed in the same room. Yeah,

now I...I want to share with you something,

since he told about Saint Joseph’s College.

Now, he joined the IIT Madras as a research scholar

in 1964, and since then,

I have almost treated him as an younger brother,

and I have never called him by his name,

as just now Kumaran mentioned,

he was known as B. V., than B. Viswanathan,

even for students and colleagues and others,

and he mentioned about Saint Joseph’s College.

And then in '65, this is an anecdote,

I was going on...I was on my way to Palani

along with my wife and small daughter 2 years

and then on this...day before I had to leave Trichy,

I was staying very near Saint Joseph’s College,

I entered Saint Joseph’s College's compound

and it was Christmas time. I was just walking

and there was reflection of sunlight

on the second floor or so, some labs,

but then I thought it was some light burning

in some place, and I just showed

and then commented to my wife,

"I think that must be the Chemistry library or

Chemistry Department."

And then I didnt see that in front of me,

two fathers were coming,

a one of them happened to be the Principal,

Father Casimir, and another was an American guest,

another father, who had come for the Christmas,

and immediately, Professor Casimir suddenly said,

"You were pointing out there,

are you somebody connected with this college?

Then, I told him, "No,

but one of our very good students who works in my...

our laboratory Viswanathan has studied here,

and so I was just telling my wife...it may be."

Then, you know it was surprising

he said, "Please wait for two minutes,"

he just walked up to the fathers lodge,

left that Am...guest there,

asked somebody to provide him the keys

for the Chemistry Department.

He walked with me family,

opened all the labs,

opened the library, and said,

"This is a place where B. Viswanathan used to

spend his time reading, reading,

till I come and tell him go home and sleep,

go to the room and sleep." He used to

study for a long time and all.

I can never forget two things:

one, about the impression he had

created at Saint Joseph’s College.

Next, a head of an institution,

just for the sake of a guest

who was walking in the compound,

opening the department. I mean he felt so

proud of his department, so proud of his

college, somebody was talking about it.

And if I remember right, Father Casimir was a

classmate of Professor Kuriacose,

one of my colleagues in Loyola College

here in Nungambakkam,

and later I think he became the Archbishop of Mylapore.

So, I don’t know whether he still there,

he was a Chemistry. Yeah,

then he was an Archbishop and he used

to come to IIT for walking in the morning.

And he will definitely drop in in my house. Right,

You were a campus resident? Yes, at that time

at that time I have become a faculty member. Yeah.

So, therefore, I was in campus resident.

You were in wardens quarters? No, no I was in...D

now...old Canara Bank, D-2 Oh, I see...I see, oh you were in that Adyar Avenue

Adyar Avenue, yeah, you were

most of the time, you were in the hostel.

So, you first of course, as a student

stayed in the Cauvery Hostel

and then I think as a warden,

you must have stayed in several hostels. Yeah, yeah nearly 30 years

I was spending in hostels. Yeah,

that’s why you have been a Chairman Council of Wardens. Yes,

all...all the post.

Ok, now I just want to go back to the remembrance.

So when you joined in 1964,

you were along with three other research scholars,

do you remember? Yeah yeah, Swaminathan and Kannan.

No, no

I think now I will try to correct you.

Swaminathan and Jain.

Jain is one year senior to me. Oh, I see oh.

Kannan...Kannan is my classmate, I mean. Oh.

Joined in the same year. I see.

See, Jain is senior to me. When did he join then?

He joined in few months . '63, '63 December,

I joined in '64, July. Yeah yeah yeah yeah, I see oh, then Udupa?

Udupa also...he is senior to me. I see.

By few months. Oh Kannan, Swaminathan.

Yes. And and I think the...

those who did M. Sc., that is Santhanam and then

Venkappayya became research scholars. All of them are juniors to me.

They they joined after some time. Now,

Professor Viswanathan, when he started his research work,

I think 3 or 4 of us, including Professor Sastry,

Head of the Department, V. Srinivasan, myself

we had only one lab, because we didn't have much space,

And then I assisted him in building up the Adsorption Laboratory.

I was not...I had not built a...a unit, adsorption unit

when I did my Ph. D.

So, that too on a slotted angle frame

it was a lot of difficulty,

and then myself and Professor V. Srinivasan,

use our experience of working with

a glass blowing torch.

So, in fact, we had to make position joints and all that,

and the whole frame when we made,

we don’t have even a photograph of that now,

and we had to put wooden pieces behind,

that too deal wood, that’s all we could get,

not even teak wood.

So, on that we had to mount the burettes and all the

bulbs and everything we used to do it.

That was the first unit.

And then when the department moved

to the new building, Applied Chemistry Building,

that unit was also shifted.

Of course, it does not exist anymore,

we shifted, and if we used for several years later also.

Now, B. V., you have done work in lots of areas.

Now first and foremost, I would like you to remember,

you said about the research scholars Kannan,

Jain and others all of them.

Do you remember that,

you must have joined after that gas plant explosion took place? Yes.

You are not aware of that one ok,

but you were there when the liquid nitrogen plant came? Yeah, yeah.

So you are very much there when the liquid nitrogen plant came. Because I...because I was the first operator of that unit.

Yeah yeah yeah yeah I mean we used it

in fact. In fact I remember, we...the cancer hospital,

it was...in way back in 1964-65,

they wanted to do some experiments

with the cells, cancer cells,

and so they didn't want to

first take the liquid nitrogen there,

they have brought that thing and then

we provided a liquid nitrogen,

and they did the experiments right in our lab.

And then next time onwards,

we told them I will spare you

a Dewar flask, and they used to...

they started experiments. That is that,

doctor is no more, I think

that Muthulakshmi’s son or somebody Yes. Like that.

He was the first medical officer in the Cancer Institute

which is in the...the...Adyar.

Not in the present place.

Now, you said about the Ph. D. programme,

so you were registered with Professor Sastry and

V. Srinivasan. V. Srinivasan

and you remember I think after

the adsorption laboratory was set up,

you must have done one pore size,

a pore volume measurement, that means,

going from very low pressure to the

atmospheric pressure. How many hours

would you have taken to complete the experiment?

Initially, it was taking 2 or 3 days.

2 or 3 days to complete an exp... So continuously, because the...

it is...the temperature has to be maintained

by pouring liquid nitrogen, there is no

temperature control and all that.

So, therefore, we...three or four days

maybe sometimes even a week.

Because a... One week completely, you have

to keep...keep awake.

See the resins had to be taken once in two hours,

three hours, till the...once the equilibrium is obtained.

Fortunately, we had a liquid nitrogen plant,

there was no problem,

but then you know we had to work day and night

taking readings, when it becomes

constraint you would take.

And those readings had to be,

sort of filled up in an equation and finally,

the pores are volume distribution had

pore size distribution,

pore...calculation had be done.

And, let me tell you that

he developed a mathematical method,

for the calculation of pore size distribution

and it was published in Journal of Catalysis, am I right? Yes.

So, so experimental one is something.

So, he felt that its good also to do some theoretical work,

and he started his, this one at that same time,

to...a...do that calculation also.

I think you must have had a very good background in Mathematics.

Yeah, I did not do I...I had a background in mathematics,

actually I wanted to do Mathematics,

but in my family, my both brothers are Mathematicians,

therefore, they forced me to take Chemistry.

Oh, I see. That is how I came to Chemistry,

but I had some flair for Mathematics.

Oh that is how you continued your this...

Ok now, so, what I see, the...the thing you have provided,

now I just want to ask you, about various aspects of

studies you have done in the last 50 years, I would say 50 years

because you already completed more than 50 years.

Now, very...very first thing was on adsorption,

and, even when you were working as a research scholar,

we had one more person who joined as a research scholar,

Mister...a person from CECRI, I forget his name, Rajagopalan.

S. R. Rajagopalan. S. R. Rajagopalan.

Yeah, yes I am sorry...this I told you.

Now, there was one Mr. S. R. Rajagopalan

who joined as a research scholar.

If I remember right, it is a unique case

at least in IIT Madras, that Mr. Rajagopalan

was only a Bachelor’s Degree and that too not only that,

he was a Bachelors Degree in Natural Science.

Botany, Zoology or something like that.

But then he was directly registered for a Ph. D.,

and then he secured his Ph. D. in IIT Madras.

Not only that, later, he was a joint guide

from students in IIT Madras for Ph. D.,

along with I think, T. V. Ramakrishna and,

he was taken from Karaikudi CSIR laboratory,

all the way to the National Aeronautical Laboratory

and he retired from there. Yes.

And his wife was also a scientist there. Yes, Sir.

Now, can you tell me where Mr. Rajagopalan is? He is...he is now in Bangalore,

settled down in Bangalore, his wife is Indira Rajagopalan. I know.

The both of them live there,

but they don’t have any issues.

So he, but his sister in law has a son,

so he is living with his son...sister in law's son.

I see. In Bangalore,

I met him a few...few months back.

He must be nearing 90. He is 90...not 90,

he is 83...85 or 86. Yeah, he is elder to me, I know 85-86.

He is 90...1960, so now, 27 years, so, 87.

87 oh yes. Now, he was a...I mean,

I had also some collaboration with him,

but unfortunately we did not publish any work,

I had met him several times in National Aeronautical Laboratory.

In fact, we wanted to bring him as a Director

with the SPIC Science Foundation to the electrochemistry vision

that Parthasarathy wanted to replace,

but then he was not interested to come at that time.

Now, please tell me your work on adsorption as such,

so, can you please... Ok adsorption I...

I have done various aspects of adsorption,

as you know very well. But, on metals,

on on the pore size distribution, many...many others

even...even vapors adsorption also I have done,

isopropyl alcohol or some organic matter,

we will not go into the details.

So, therefore vapor adsorption at the time was

not known in this country. Yeah, yeah.

It was...the permanent gas adsorptions are known. Yeah.

Vapor adsorption was not known,

so, vapor adsorption, and why I did vapor adsorption is,

I afterwards I converted into catalytic reactions. Yeah.

So, therefore, catalytic reactions adsorption is important.

so, the...in that way, I went to the adsorption of the vapors. Yeah.

Then we we built up some microbalance and all those things. Yeah.

And you know very well, one of the microbalances

which was originally done in this place ok.

We...we...we didn't have a com balance,

commercial balance, only quartz spring balance were there. Yeah.

So, therefore, quartz spring balance only we were

using first...first, then we purchased com balance,

then we purchased more...more than one com balance.

So, from the...in the...from the adsorption, I deviated

to, at that point of time, to do a catalysis. I see that catalytic reactions.

Yeah, but still now, even...you see...you said about the

the framework and all that, we have still the frameworks

they...they are slotted angle frame

and the adsorption units still there ok. I see, I see.

It is not used now, because people are not having that type...

because you know very well, even to take one adsorption

isotherm it is only a few points, but it will take one full day. One full day.

So, therefore, now people are...want

everything in the computer

and the results must be within few hours or few minutes, that is a Yeah.

So, therefore nobody has the patience

to use those apparatus. But it is still there. I see,

Now, in in this connection,

I wanted to mention

very...it...I can say it was interesting observation,

but you know once we were trying to

do that pore volume measurement, pore...up to the

saturation pressure, with nitrogen, on the com balance.

So, I don’t know how much time it took

maybe one day, and then something happened

very funnily. So the quartz bulb was

containing the sample, and then just as it is a

liquid hydrogen temperature, and I was

thinking that we are going to make a measurement,

and I was very much there and

suddenly, there was a disturbance,

and then the entire powder in the thing

got tilted out. And then I said, "What is this?"

"Why is it happening?" You know,

I was surprised, that the liquid nitrogen, possibly

was a nitrogen gas...was possibly contaminated

a little bit of oxygen, and this oxygen had condensed

in the form of a thin hair and these had connected

to the sides of the bulb.

And so that disturbed,

because the balance was no longer free,

and the entire thing got disturbed

and the whole powder fell down,

and I said this is very funny.

So next time I did not go through the

entire pore volume, just went through the saturation pressure,

very near...and again repeated, again it happened.

So I knew the nitrogen gas

were filled up, was possibly impure,

it was set at...

I never reported this in any...this one, but it is

an experience which I always remember.

And, you mentioned about the other balance.

We did obtain the Stanton thermobalance

unfortunately, because when the whole thing

was shifted from one building to another,

and then I don’t blame,

I don’t know whether...

I cannot blame Professor Sastry or anybody,

but then 20 years later, 20 years later,

parts of that, which were lost

were found in one of the cupboards, in the laboratory.

And it was too late

by then you know com balance, we had just

condemned it somewhere, and then I felt

so sorry about it. And I...I told this to

Professor Srinivasan just before retiring,

it was lying somewhere there,

I don’t know whether I must have told you all that.

Because this is not the only thing that we lost in this,

another was parts of the microcalorimeter,

and I think the...parts of the porosimeter,

because porosimeter we could never set it up,

the mercury...sorry porosimeter we set up at the

other one we could not set up the. Calorimeter.

Calorimeter. And you know this was something which

happened because of things when...happened

shifting and all that, and microcalorimeter

was a bit damaged also.

Have you made use of that...first mass spectrometer

which came...CIS? Yeah, yeah

I didn’t use the first mass spectrometer,

which was in the HSB, it was installed. Yeah, yeah installed mass...

I...I was responsible for installing it I...Yeah...yeah that's correct,

Then that Ramana...Then, then Ramana took over as a...

because he was working on mass spectrometer of the fragments,

but I have use...installed it and used it.

I see...of course, that was only meant for setting. Organic vapors is morely...

mostly in...in one day...and that time

we were using permanent gases and other things.

Yes. Therefore, we...we didn’t use it extensively,

but I have used it. I see, ok.

Now, somewhere you...when you became a Lecturer in 1960...

Associate Lecturer in 1968 or '67...

'69. '69 you became is it? I see.

So, I think by the time the Institute

celebrates Golden Jubilee...sorry Diamond Jubilee,

you will be celebrating your Silver Jubilee...

sorry Golden Jubilee as a faculty member.

So, Mister Kumaran, so I think we must remember,

he is going to celebrate his Golden Jubilee,

as a faculty member. Yes, yes.

As...by about...say two years' time now.

Now, let me then ask about the catalytic reactions,

you have carried out a number of catalytic reactions.

And, any reaction which you think

you could have possibly...we could have commercialized,

you could have commercialized

and possibly for some reasons, it didn’t go to that stage.

Ok, many...many things we could have commercialized.

For example, recently we did Narimanam

you might have heard about it.

Narimanam is a village in in Tanjore district,

or very near to Karaikal. The...there, they found oil.

But the oil cannot be directly used,

because the the sulphur content is 720 PPM. Oh, I see.

So it has to be refined and brought to...

for example, even today in the cities...ok, in the metropolis,

it should be 50 PPM. And in the...in the rural areas,

it can be 100 to 150 PPM. Ok that is that refined petrol.

Petrol or diesel or fuel, let us not worry about it.

So but the...what they were doing is, they were

shipping the...from Narimanam to Chennai,

refined it and then brought it back to the villages.

So, we developed a process by simply pumping the oil

through a column. We can bring down the sulphur content

from 720 to less than 150.

And then it can be sold in the rural areas there itself. I see.

Because the amount of crude oil that was

available at that time is...is not some metric...

a million metric tons, it is only few tons ok,

so therefore, the bringing it here

and refining it. Yeah, its.

And bringing it back there, it will be

unnecessarily adding the cost.

So this process...like this, this is one of them ok,

there are many processes that we have developed.

So this...this process we developed for CPCL.

Today’s CPCL, at that time MRL. Madras Refineries.

But you know very well, in this country, any...

any development that you do,

it should be also in...in...include some perks,

we cannot give any perks to them.

yeah yeah. So therefore it was not implemented,

but I...I had very good connections with the CMD of MRL,

the from the first Deenadayalu and then

subsequently all of them. Yeah, I know I know I know.

All of them were personally known to me.

So, that is one of the reasons why we did for them.

This project started in '80’s, you may be knowing

with the Sitharaman as the. Yeah.

Head of R and D. And then, we...we...even...even in

twen...2004, 2005, we were working for the Narimanam project.

I see, because I was not there. So, this is one of them.

The...the same way we have done...developed

an alumina catalyst which is having pore size.

At that time alumina, and the silica, as you know very well

as carbon is one of the coconut shell carbon is

one of the Indian famous. But it is no longer good,

because, now the Chinese are bringing

carbon 3000 square meters per gram.

Whereas, coconut, charcoal and other things

will have only 200 to 300. At that time,

I...the Indian Oil Corporation, also is...

was interested in the alumina. So we developed

an alumina which is porous alumina which

will have surface areas greater than 300 square meters.

I see. Because normally alumina will have only 150 to 200.

What, what alumina was it? It is a gamma alumina.

I see gamma alumina. Because it is a support for many of

the refining process. Yeah, yeah right right.

So, therefore, this...this was

about to be commercialized by one of the companies,

we will not name them.

So, the, but...but

somehow or other I...I P C, I mean IOCL

did not pursue it further.

But we went and manufactured this.

The same way as you know when...when we

did the work for CPCL,

the main catalyst in the refining is FCC:

Fluid Catalytic Cracking.

Now, if you take...in India itself,

we are importing FCC catalysts may...even if you

put an optimist estimate, 10000 tons per year,

10000 tons of the catalyst are being imported.

So, what we did was, we...we developed a catalyst

for FCC in our laboratory, and then I went

to a...a manufacturing company, at that time,

the manufacturing company was in. Haldia.

West Bengal...West Bengal. Haldia, I remember, I remember.

I went there, we...we developed the catalyst,

then we...we...the representative from MRL,

Mister...Doctor Meenakshi Sundaram Yeah.

and myself were returning, when we arrived here by train,

at the time they purchased that company.

The Western Company, purchased the manufacturing unit,

and destroyed it within two days.

Because they know fully well that the FCC catalyst

will be manufactured in India and they did not want, because...

This is news to me, I have. Yes, but we cannot tell this out,

how can we tell this out? Who purchased it, who...?

This is...the...the company belonged to Hindustan Lever. Oh, I see yeah.

The...the manufacturing company was

belonging to Hindustan Lever

and you know very well these are all multinationals. Yeah, yeah yeah yeah.

They will be able to manipulate everything.

Everything happened within three days.

We...we had to come from Haldia to Howrah,

Howrah to Chennai by train, by the time we arrived here

already everything is... This is news to me

I only know that the MRL was not interested. No, no no

MRL was very much... No no no MRL see the company said...

you had to order for one crore worth of catalyst. Yeah, yeah that is a.

And these people were hesitant to do it, and then that is

why I said that you should at least file patents, and

they agreed and we joined the file. Yeah, yeah we...we have

we...we...we still have the patent, three patents are there with that. Yeah yeah that’s correct, that’s correct

so. Because why they asked is the MRL, at that time

not now, at that time the capacity for FCC catalyst was 300 tonnes.

And each tonne at that time itself one lakh.

Now, we are not talking about the cost of today.

So therefore, per year, they have to buy 300...300 lakh of rupees.

So therefore, they thought, because at that time there were only

about 9 or 10 refineries, now we have 17 refineries in India.

So...and also the biggest refinery in the world itself is there in India.

The Reliance. Reliance yeah.

Ok, because they are...they are consuming about

maybe about 1500 Tons of FCC catalyst.

Anyway the above 1000. You mean, the FCC catalyst

they still use all hydro cracking and other things. No no no, this a

FCC is a...is a part of that ok. Yeah, is a part.

Yeah, once you do the FCC, then you can do hydro cracking and all those things. Yeah, right that was the...

Yes. Higher fractions

Yes. And all that higher fraction ok.

So, we have a covered about the...I am say catalytic

reactions to something which is a lot of industrial interest.

One more project which we started,

and you were very much involved in, that was the hydrogen energy.

And naturally, there was a hydrogen energy materials

science laboratory and Professor Shastry tried to

put forward, what India is capable of in doing hydrogen energy

in the world level and all that. But then,

what is the present state of this hydrogen energy

thing in India and in the world, as such? Ok

in. And our cont... First first. Your contribution.

In the...my contribution, I will come to it later,

the...the present status of hydrogen energy in

India is very...very meager ok.

I mean, when compared to other countries.

This is because, the production is become...

from the decomposition of water ok.

The decomposition of water at the moment

in the commercial scale, not laboratory scale,

in the commercial scale if you have to take,

the efficiency is less than 10 percent,

single digit percent. If the...if...if any chemical

process you are to carry out, it should be having

at least carnot efficiency, 33 percent,

then only it will...even if you take solar cell,

the silicon solar cells is only 26 percent,

that is why they are looking for alternatives for solar cells.

So, therefore, the...the...the problem here is, the materials.

Yes. The...H2O getting decomposed...it requires 1.23 Volts,

but it will not decompose if you apply 1.23 Volts,

you have to put some more over voltage. Yeah.

So, therefore, if you put all those things,

the efficiency will come down. Yeah.

Ok...it, that is the problem. Even today,

western world is trying ok, I myself

have addressed the American Chemical Society,

number of times I was specifically invited for this,

ok. In...in...in addition, that is the...even the hydrogen storage.

Yeah. You may be knowing, in 1999,

very...you may be knowing the scientist also,

I don’t want to name him.

He is a very famous scientist from Northwestern University.

He reported a value of 67 weight percent.

And 2001, I was asked to address the American Chemical Society,

what is the status of the hydrogen

storage in...in solid state materials?

So, the...the first line I said is,

"This result is nonsense." The whole of the audience

of Americans stood up, "What is all this..."

Then, I said, "You see, in the nature,

carbon and hydrogen ratio is...if you

take the highest hydrogen containing

carbon material, is CH4."

So, 12 plus 4, 16, 16 grams can contain 4 grams.

Therefore, if I have 100 grams, it can contain only

25 for its weight percent. 67 weight

percent storage is impossible. Oh.

So, this is the...there are other evidences also,

we can say, we will not go into all of them.

The oxidation potential, reduction potential

we can use, all those things we can show.

Many ways I proved, within 5 minutes, I proved,

everybody sat down. I mean it is not to...

so now, that is one of the...that is also...today also is a problem.

Now, I will...I will tell you, because, if you take metals,

ok, we...metals is the one of the ways where hydrogen

can be stored, even in IIT in Mechanical Engineering,

in Chemistry, in Physics, all the places have metals

or inter metallics are used for hydrogen storage.

But the in the case of the metals,

If you have one metal atom,

one hydrogen alone can be stored.

Ok, it is not a stoichiometry,

it is the...the vacant space that is available.

Yeah, yeah yeah. So therefore, if I have iron, 55 grams,

we will store only one gram.

So 100 grams of iron will

store two grams only.

So, even if you take a...a

very...unless always the atomic weight

of the metal is going to be 10,

then you can, 10-1-1 therefore, 110 percent.

So, that is why magnesium is storing...

Yeah, that’s why. More storing more.

So, you should not immediately say

all metals will store more.

Whereas, carbon will store up to 25 weight percent,

but we can make only one residual valency.

Yeah. The other two-three...three has to be connected to other three carbons,

only the surface carbon alone, one have a one residual valency,

that will store 25 by 4, 36.25,

that is the original DOE standards,

they expected only six percent storage.

In carbon? Carbon.

Whatever may the type of carbon?

Any...any type of carbon, you can...you

technically and scientifically, you can achieve six percent

I see. Storage, but we have not yet achieved that.

Naturally, naturally. That is a different situation.

So, therefore, it...even with hydrogen...hydrogen production,

and hydrogen storage is a fertile field of research even today.

I see. And if...not only fertile field of research it\,

is as a very...very many things can be done in that.

No no, you don’t talk about the metals and alloys,

inter metallics in it, but just a porous material like

a zeolite or a very, can that at least be used Yeah, yeah there...that’s the that MOF,

you might have heard about it, Metal Organic Framework. Yeah,

metal organic. which which is having very high porosity,

see where hydrogen storage can be done

to whatever extent you want,

but the material must be recyclable at least

10 to 20000 cycles. Right.

Then only it will...is economical.

For example, you have a petrol tank,

tank is there therefore, you can go on filling it up.

In the same way if I have a...it is...it is a tank.

It takes the hydrogen and gives at the tank.

So it should be capable of taking any number of cycles.

At least for an automobile applications, or

for mobile applications, the cycling must be at least

thousand times, if possibly it must be 10...tens of thousands.

Now, these materials will not stand with that,

it will be one or two times only.

Then, how is it they are talking of running automobiles on hydrogen energy or Yeah,

that is what...the...the hydrogen

hydrogen can be stored in cylinder, various ways. Yeah.

So, therefore, that...but that is a weight penalty.

Weight penalty. Yes.

So, So, you have to...if you are using a cylinder,

even now today you can use. Yeah, yeah

Point is, whatever they are claiming that

they are using hydrogen energy,

that is all just not by hydride

basis or anything like that, it is only by cylinder No no no no directly they are not

directly they are not using hydrogen, because

you carry, you carry in a automobile, a cylinder,

it is equivalent to carrying a bomb, bomb in a vehicle. bomb

So, they might be carrying the hydride

hydride storage vessels. Yes

So, we should be, I mean is there any limit

to the size of the hydride? Yeah, yes it is all...it...

it the...the...the whole of the automobile

configuration itself has to be changed. I see.

We...we also did another thing, ok, I don’t want to tell this here,

we...we tried to generate hydrogen in situ in a car. I see.

The same method ok, decomposing water,

but not by electrolysis, because in the...in a car,

I cannot do electrolysis. Yeah.

So, it is a chemical reaction,

we will not go into the details of the chemical reaction.

We...we tried this and we try...drove the car,

I myself drove the car to Tirupati,

from Chennai ok, but only thing is in a route and in a time

when there will be no traffic. Because it is...if it explodes it...

it will be very dangerous. Then I wanted to

demonstrate this car in IIT.

At that time Ananth was the Director

and he knew about this development.

So he wanted me to bring the car and do it.

So, we brought it and put it very near to the CLT

and then started preparing it, it exploded.

It exploded. Yes.

I see. I will tell you what is that happened ok.

So, therefore, the the whole Maruthi car became nothing ok,

anyway we will not talk about it. I see, but it was a run for...

No no no it was preparing to run. No no I am telling you said you ran it

No no after that...after that, after this explosion,

we found out why...why it has happened and all those things,

then I drove the car from a Chennai to Hyderabad. I see.

These are all done for a company which is

associated with the...the previous Chief Minister of Andhra Pradesh.

So, we will not name him and all those things,

Jagan Mohan Reddy’s father.

No but what is the present situation there?

That chemical method is possible still, but it is dangerous. Ok.

So now, the...the...was the Institute,

IIT, was it anyway financially compensating for the No no no this was done by

the uncle of the...Jagan Mohan Reddy’s father.

I see no no, but they paid for all this? Yeah, yeah they paid for all of this,

even the car was paid by by them. But you were paid for it?

No no no. For doing the research.

I was...I was...I was only, I was only helping them. I see I see ok

and something...something which is very interesting,

now you have also worked on hydrate batteries,

what is difference between hydrate batteries

and hydrogen storage, what is the difference?

Now, hydrate batteries is a...is a

because you know very well, the combustion value of

hydrogen is very high, compared to any other thing. So, yeah, so that.

So, therefore, hydrate batteries is better, but

today, hydrate batteries are not so famous,

lithium ion batteries alone is...for example,

in this year’s Nobel Prize and last year’s Nobel Prize

should have gone to Goodenough, because he was the man

who invented the lithium ion battery, ok.

Who? But, unfortunately for some reason,

we will not go into all of the reason,

He published a paper in March...end of March...March 27th

on a lithium ion battery, it it made a stir in the whole world.

I see. Ok, but unfortunately what happened is, that paper,

it is not yet published, so, I don’t want to discuss that,

but still...I...we can discuss that science,

there is a flaw in that paper.

So that was pointed out by a by a scientist in...from MIT,

there...it is still...it is not out because,

Nobel Prize was being considered,

therefore, this...this objection

comes, the...Goodenough's name will go.

So, therefore, even now, even now

it is not yet published. I see, I see.

Now let me just digress

for a minute from the research.

Now, you have guided a large number of students,

now, with how many are you still in contact,

can you name some of them? Nearly 90 percent.

Oh. I have...I have guided...guided, I will not say,

I have been associated ok. Ok.

About more than 120 students.

Not only in Chemistry, but in other Departments also. Yeah,

the whole Institute, and also some other Institute,

because you know very well...that yeah, so,

not only in Chennai ok, where...wherever the

even...even up to Tezpur in one corner,

they are...in the in the western corner, up to Gujarat. Ok.

So. Now, any of your students,

research students, or those with whom you are associated,

have received the Distinguished

Alumnus Award of the Institute?

I don’t remember, I don’t keep track of it,

but the... Who is it that has now...heading the laboratory of

Goodenough? Oh...Mandiram oh ok ok.

Has Mandiram received it? Yes, yes.

Mandiram received it ok, I think we will check

in the Distinguished Alumnus Award. Yeah, yeah he received it.

He received it. you have worked with Palanisamy?

Yes. Is Palanisamy also in some way...no, Mandiram only

Mandiram only, yes what about that DuPont fellow

M...M. A. Subramanian. M. A. Subramanian did not

get the alumni... No, I think he did not get it,

he is a Ph. D. from our college, ok.

Now, let me just...this is about the students,

and you say you remember most of the students.

Now, you did some work for some company in USA,

Columbia. Columbian Chemicals.

Yeah, was it industry... Ok. collaborations project?

I will, I will just tell you the story of the Columbian Chemicals.

I went to United States up to that year I did not

even step into the any of the western countries,

I only stayed in India, ok.

I stepped into the United States only after 2000,

after my retirement. No, but you had been to Germany and.

That is later, I mean the United States. United States ok.

So, when I went to you know Columbian Chemicals,

at that time one of my student was in Columbian Chemicals,

Srinivas. Yeah, Srinivas yeah.

So he invited me to, at that time meeting only, the

the...the hydrogen storage address was there.

So he invited me, so I went there,

I don’t want to name the Vice President.

He said they were...they were in the business

of making carbon ok, the carbon is low ion carbon,

for tyre manufacture and other things.

At that time, the...the carbon can be made

very very value at the addition, carbon electrodes

and other things ok, we will not talk about it.

So, he threw me a challenge because

they have invested in two best institutes in the

United States and United Kingdom.

You...now itself you can imagine what

will be the names of the the institutions,

Cambridge and MIT, to make this

carbon material into value addition.

Value addition means, it should not be useful to

the low ion use, it should be

a gram of carbon must cost you

1000 dollars like that. So, he gave this project,

he came to IIT, he gave me this project in March

one year, then he said every six months

I will visit you, you...you tell me the progress.

So, by September he came, I gave them the process. I see.

At that time, that two other...two other institutions,

we will not worry about that, they could not even progress anything.

Now, was it...was IIT Madras compensated for this? No, I will tell you,

then he said, "I should give you some some reward for this."

So, he said, "I will give you 20000 dollars free."

Without any commitment, then I said, "I don’t take any money

for any...on any of these things."

So, give this 20000 dollars to our Institute. Yeah.

So, they gave the money to...to 20000 dollars to the Institute,

we...with the condition that it should be used for

research purposes of our laboratory. Same thing ok,

you...you can call it research based. So like that he was

even willing to give more, but at that time, the...

there was some restrictions. I see, I see.

These type of donations, we cannot get...certain amount only. I see,

oh it was not called the research based industrial consultancy No no no it was a gift.

Oh because what I did was, I...

that is a...that is a...

that is a different thing. Yeah, I made it...I see, ok.

Oh that’s...now that is at Columbian...because I see

quite a few things mentioned in your patents,

that it is being...the it has been patented by the company. Yes, yes.

Oh, they have patented it.

They have patented it They have made money on that one.

Now, as of now has that two Western Universities contributed? No,

but Columbian Chemicals itself has been sold to some Ok.

Taiwanese and other things. Ok.

So, it it did not get through. Ok,

Now I will go back to something else.

Now, you know that we were...

our Department was associated,

the Chemistry Department to the catalysis group

was known in most of the Western countries

I don’t say about USA, Europe and all that,

as a...as a centre for catalysis research.

Now, you know that Russians used to come, Russian groups

used to come and attend even our...

and some others, some Germany other countries also.

Oh, do you remember the visit to some of the

Germans who came to IIT Madras, Chemistry Department. Yes, I know.

During '70s, can you name, and you went

to one of them to do your Post Doctoral. Professor Block is one of them.

Yes. Professor Knozinger is one of them

and then Helmut is another...another Professor. Professor?

Helmut, from the Fritz Haber Institute

the...who is worked on the... Oh Karge...Helmut Karge.

Now, what about the...the person Janicke and Ernst.

Ernst...Ernst and... Yeah.

Now, then there are...wait a minute. Now, Professor Block,

you went to Professor Block, to spend a Post Doctoral with him,

I mean I...I think von Humboldt Fellowship.

And again I think, you worked for some time

with Max Planck fellow also.

Now, have you...you must have definitely

visited their workshops.

So the excellent workshop extending over,

so you must have possibly built also...

used the workshop for your research work and all that.

Now, you have published with Professor Block some paper? Yeah, yeah lot of papers.

But you have not I think you have mentioned only one paper or two papers. Because...

It is. But anyway for more more than five or six papers with him.

I see, but during the time when you were with Professor Block,

was the Nobel laureate. Ernst...Ernst.

Yeah. Was he also there? Ertl; Ertl.

The Nobel. Ertl...Ertl.

Correct, was he also there? He was not there at the time.

Ok. But, I know him.

Ok, now I, if I were to say that if Professor Block were to be alive,

then Professor Ertl got the Nobel Prize,

it would have been awarded to both of them together,

would you agree that? No no, not that way,

Block would have got it individually, because, Block has developed...

For example, I will tell you one thing,

just now we have an instrument, which is

costing about, we will not worry about the cost,

B. S. Murty has installed.

This technique itself was developed first,

we...we developed ok, myself and Block and others

ok, we will not name the all of them.

So, the...we were developed, but we did not succeed at the time,

that is. what was that.

The photo, Photo Induced Ionization.

Photo Induced Ionization Spectroscopy. Yes.

The same technique only now they...it is the commercially available

and B. S. Murty has invested about maybe 50-60 crores.

What for is this? It is studying the fragmentations

that are taking place inside the thing with a...with the...voltage,

high voltage. Now, how is B. S. Murty...in Metallurgical.

Yeah yeah yeah, but he is interested in in the metallic clusters

and other things so. I see I see I see so...

That is not a thing...ok because it is a laser beam,

so it is an instantaneous heat. I see.

So, therefore, you can evaporate any metal.

But then your interest was on what? On Field Ionization.

Field Ionization. That is, field ionization requires very...very high field

10 to the power of 8 volts per angstrom.

So that means, I should apply 30000 volts or 40000 volts,

40000 volts in a room if you are applying,

what a danger. So therefore, we wanted to

bring down that application of the voltage on the...

on the metal tip, this is called tip,

filament we will say...take a filament. So, therefore,

we wanted to bring down that voltage.

So we wanted to do voltage plus photons

so that it will ionize easily. I see.

The concept itself is a new thing there, at that time ok.

This was in '70. It was in '78.

'78 I see.

No, what I felt was because Ertl came...

because Ertl came later, and then Ertl and

so many joined, who were working parallelly

and they were in contact, but I felt that when Ertl got it,

he would have...Block also would have possibly... Block was, if...

if Block was...were...were to be alive, he would have got

a Nobel Prize even earlier than Ertl. I see I see,

because now...now that we talked about Nobel Prize,

have you visited in Fritz Haber Institute,

the room where the Nobel Prize... Yeah, yeah it will be a room...

Almost about this size. slightly About this size and the on the wall,

there will be photographs of that... All the Noble laureates.

Yes, there will be 20-25, in the Fritz Haber Institute itself...

itself will be a...Nobel Prize will be 20-25, and many others

who...who were very near to the Nobel Prize.

For example, you take Gerischer in this year’s ok, Block’s year,

there were...there was a talk that Gerischer and Block

both will get the Nobel Prize.

Yeah. But Gerischer was the Director and

Block was the previous Director.

I see. That rotating system existing long ago,

then Ertl became the Director, when Block died,

then Ertl became the Director. No, you have visited because he had

taken me to that room and No, I have I attended many seminars in that room.

Yeah, I see. I myself have given a seminar there.

I see I see. So, ok, going back to that, you have

spent some time in Japan also, what was your work in Japan?

In Japan, I was working...ok development

of silicons at that time ok, this is in '83, '84 ok.

Gating Technique. I see.

So, reducing the time of Gating Technique. I see, I see.

So, silicons...silicon based systems we were doing, we were measuring.

So, it is, I mean, in which this one does it come?

Does it come under materials or does it come under? It is...it is...it can be considered as materials,

at that time only the silicon single...single crystals ok,

I was using single crystals only, single crystal and technology, ok.

Single crystal is known for the centuries together,

but the technology, especially in the electrical...electronics industry,

silicon single chips were there.

now. For example, you said, they are same...same thing,

it was done...the work was done for a company and our instrument,

some...some fault was there, ok and I had only eight months time.

So, therefore, the, but the instrument

has to come from United Kingdom.

I see, I see. So, when I phoned up the company, they said

"How many hours is the flight from United Kingdom to Japan?"

We were in...in Japan in Tokyo...in Hokkaido

Hokkaido is very much away from Tokyo

ok, four or five hours flight for a thing,

but anyway we will not worry.

Then, they said, "24 hours you wait,

24 hours you spend your time

24 hours, it will be deposited to you."

So, within 24 hours, it was there on my table.

The instrument. That part.

I see part, I see.

So, let me now come to a later part,

now you were associated with the...the catalysis division,

almost somewhere the inception,

you know Professor Kuriacose

who became the Head of the Catalysis Division in 1984.

And he got...sorry, he got...he got associated with

the MRL project of '84 onwards, and he got the building,

the Kinetic Catalysis Lab, and the Catalysis Division almost

simultaneously, around '85 or '86, because the...

it was a Silver Jubilee cooperation agreement.

Now, you were involved initially, because you know when,

Professor Weitkamp, the coordinator came

and then you were involved in all that SWOT analysis

and all that finally, you know that we were not

very much consulted on the type of equipment.

What make, and what this one had to be...we wanted,

they decided everything under.

Even when we...in the

first agreement or the third IIT agreement,

when we got equipment Professor Sastry’s time.

You remember the planner on the German side have,

you met him Professor Kerber?

I didn’t meet him. Technical University...

See Professor Kerber, I don’t think made any

much visits to this place.

He had visited once,

and we have a photograph of his, and that...some organization meeting,

but then he...the Professor who have sent

was one Professor Butenuth who must have known him. Butenuth I know very well.

Yeah, but Butenuth, what was his specialization we could not make out,

he was mostly... He was Mineral Chemistry.

Mineral Chemistry, and so he could not do anything and

did not possibly...it was a misfit in Chemistry.

So, he spent his time, I felt, he felt very miserable

during that one year and he went away,

but wanted to keep in touch with two people who went

to Germany afterward, Professor Ramana and

Professor V. R. S. Rao...sorry Professor Udupa

and took them round and all that. Anyway, that

was not a very good...

Now, let’s come to the catalysis division time,

you know after Weitkamp started supplying the equipment,

one of the equipment that was supplied, I felt was a waste,

that was a hydrogen plant. And you know that room

was set up and then it was all there, what happened to that

one after he retired? It was all demolished.

Because we could not use it because it was in

semi-industrial level.

And that had to be connected

by lines to the hydrogen, into the main lab, to be used for

chromatographic purposes Yeah, but see

this was done 30 years back or 40 years before,

or in '70s around. '80...'80s '80s,

80’s so, that’s hydrogen is a safety measure, ok.

Yeah. It is a very dangerous to do such hydrogen

production inside the building, in inside an institution. Yeah.

And it is put in the...in the midst of Physics, Chemistry,

and other other things, and it was put in a very small room.

So, it is operationally...it was not...cannot be a successful thing. I know,

that’s what I am telling you, that see the supply,

I mean they decided to supply certain things which were not

of use to us which we could not put to use ok. Same...

same thing happened in the case of the first

set of equipment and all that.

Now, on behalf of the Heritage Centre,

I would like to ask you something. You know you had used,

I had use...we used to use a mechanical calculator. Facit; facit.

Facit Facit calculator. Do you have any one of them in the Chemistry still?

We don’t have a Facit calculator, but we had number of them

ok. Oh, do you know where we can get one?

We want to put it in the Heritage Museum.

So, we are asking where...who...asking people who have used it,

all the Departments have used it, I remember.

I have used it extensively. Yeah,

now for this...for the purpose of the Heritage Centre,

I want to tell, that then we were the

two who were...doing all the donkeys work,

as far as the seminars in the Chemistry Department are concerned.

Right from 1967, I think when we arranged the

Solid State Chemistry Symposium.

So we had to take care of the projector,

we had to take care of all the arrangements

and then I think it was done even when all the

resonance meetings were...I mean intercollegiate

meetings were held. I think we were the last to go out

in the evening, taking all the projectors along

with some research students and all that.

I mean I can never forget,

so, in the not... Not only...not only in the city of Madras,

when we organized Catalysis Symposium in Dhanbad

I see, there also I do not know, whether you remember

No, no. You traveled with us, we took the projector.

I see. Not a slide projector alone,

even the overhead projector from here. Oh, that was for the workshop?

Workshop for Catalysis workshop ok. Yeah because I came only for the Sindri this one,

PDIL. Ok, but...but it is in the ISM, Dhanbad.

Yeah, yeah that. Recently, I was...I was in Dhanbad, I was remembering that.

I see, I see because I went only for the, what

Sindri Organization and that was. Yeah, Sindri is different,

Sindri is. But that was....I mean the

the guest house was all horrible, in sense

lot of mosquitoes and all that, that is where we

gave the Eminent Scientist Award for the first time. Yeah, yeah.

So, Professor M. V. C. Sastri gave an address and he received the award.

Now, Professor Viswanathan is a...has also received

the Eminent Scientist Award of Catalysis Society,

in addition to several other awards which we have listed here.

So, I just want to once again take you back

to some of the joint projects that

we might have done together.

So, for example, one is the...

this thing about uh...MRL project,

another is about the work on X-ray photoelectron.

I mean is...installing, and then doing some work on the

XP...XPS things. What is the present situation about...

I think that instrument is condemned. No no no, that...that instrument is condemned,

but now we have a new instrument.

Is it now working? Is...what is? Yes yes, it is working.

I see. And we are...we are the only institution, or only centre

which were giving service free of charge to anybody

in the whole of this country, and even in the whole of the world.

I wanted to...what are the facilities available?

I have never come...visited that's the reason... For catalysis, you have everything there.

I see. In a modern...modern...all spectroscopies

and all...even we have a TEM, very...very, two angstroms you can resolve.

I see I see I see. The the best instrument is one angstrom,

but our instrument can resolve 2 angstroms.

Because we are...we going to use a catalyst and

other things which is a dirty material.

So, one angstrom instrument will be spoiled very easily,

that is why we...we...we went in for a two angstrom,

this costs you...us around 10 crores,

all put together ok, the instrument and the room and other things.

You mean, now what? It is working.

I see, I see. And it is giving service for

the whole of this country, even for IIT,

even though in IIT we have at least five microscopes,

10 microscopes. I see.

But the...ours is the most extensively used instrument.

Oh, I see, you mean electron microscopy. Electron microscopy.

Electron microscopy. Now, you know we received one

thing for gas analysis.

I am not talking about...

the what happened to the GCMS, I don’t know.

That was condemned is it, GCMS? Yeah, yeah that was condemned.

That was condemned.

Now, we used to have another you know, gas analysis.

We couldn’t use the...there was no

software available for getting the detailed data and all that.

And then, Professor Karge, the Karge sent us the

reaction unit to be used along with the

infrared spectrometer. That was also not set up with it

I think by then the...IR...IR instrument failed and... But now we have,

nowadays commercially there are various instruments,

at that time we had to get it custom made by Karge.

Yeah. But, now it is all available, it is...it is possible even now,

in our instrument. I see,

you...you have facilities for all that? Yeah yeah.

I see. It is...it is all now commercially available.

I see, now I just want to ask you about...

its...you know Professor Block, since I visited

his Institute in 1989, just a few months before

the unification. And...of course, I will not tell about

this small incident which happened when you

took us for a walk after lunch.

But then I made a comment to him the day I was leaving,

so they had said that it is a waste, that this...the East Germany

and West Germany separated.

And then I was sitting,

much later, when I went in '89, I went along with

Professor Pillai as a visiting...

And we were sitting at the front,

that gate and then I said "What a waste,

I think this wall has to come down."

We did not have a camera, we want to

take a photograph, and four months later it came down.

So in fact I have been mentioning that turn

since we would like to do a historical survey of IIT Madras,

So history has been written,

it will be a Diamond Jubilee history, which we are going to write.

The first 30 years, ends in '89,

So, our collaboration was with FRG.

So, '89 onwards it is with Germany,

the unified Germany.

And you remember in '90,

you and I were invited by Professor Knozinger

and his wife, we were guests in a

galas thing somewhere, I think I...

German Consulate had invited us for a party

in the evening, we were both guests of Professor Knozinger

do you remember that? So, Yeah.

yeah. So, Professor Block of course, had come

a few months earlier.

Now, Professor Block

because I mentioned about this wall,

he brought a piece of that wall and presented to us.

Do you have it in the...I passed it on

to you or I passed it on to the Head of the Department,

I don’t remember. No no I recently saw that...that

Where is it? I don’t know now,

but recen...I can locate it. If it is in.

In the...in the if the something with which you can keep. With...with

some...some plastic container or No no it...covered with polythene

can you please...we would like to keep it in Heritage Centre with

Professor Block’s name, if possible, a photograph of Professor Block.

Ok. So, saying that... That, I will locate.

Yeah please, because I was thinking it was in the

Head of the Department.

It was in the Head of the Department

office only, even now it may be in the Head of the Department

because since I was also Head of the...

That is what I am saying. So, therefore, I know I remember to have seen it,

recently also I saw that therefore You check, whether you have in your room,

if not. It is not in my room,

but anyway I will locate it...I will locate it. Please locate and please let us know about that one.

Now, is there something which you would like to

say about the IIT of those days,

when you joined in 1964, and IIT of today?

So, campus wise, the...see the...by way of

the contribution that IIT has made,

because you have spent 50 years

I can tell only up to...when I retired.

Now, as I can tell you, I give a hint also,

one Professor...Professor Ananth, nobody...he said,

that then...since 2000,

the amount of money IIT has been getting, is

enormous, because there is absolutely no problem

about funding. So, many organizations are funding.

So, that is why the research output has also increased,

you can do newer type of research and all that.

So, I mean, I myself telling you,

this is one of the observations that we have made,

do you have any observations you made?

But, this is not anyway I...I don’t want to come. No no personal,

no...no your personal thing you can tell.

Ananth is a well...very knowledgeable person,

but recently I have been asked by a Chinese writer

ok. Recently, recently means two or three days back,

she is trying to compare the performance of...

there is a feeling ok, there is a feeling

that the Indian Science and Technology

has come down in the last two or three years ok,

from...as to be precise, from 2014 onwards.

Has come down? Come down.

Ok. As compared to 2014, 2013...like that.

I see. And she asked, she is going to write it in nature,

this. She is...you know enlisted to write in nature.

So, she asked me...she wanted to...she wanted to get

opinion from people, she is not taking opinion only from me,

some 20 or 30 people from India.

Even Balaraman is one of them. The previous Director of...

but Balaraman declined, I even talked to him,

but he declined. He declined, I see I see.

maybe for some reason, we will not go into all the reason. Yeah.

So, the the conclusion that they...we came,

ok, it is not yet published, so I cannot say this is the conclusion,

but mostly what we are feeling here is,

the Science and Technology that is being practiced today

in India, for example, the new faculty,

let us take only IIT. Ok.

Very small segment.

The research,

I am not denying the research has to be done,

that is not a question.

But what they are doing is,

what they have done in their post-doc, or

whatever they have done in the Western World,

that is what is being practiced here. I see.

So, that is...we...that is why this science was

growing in this country, because we were

practicing what is feasible in this country.

Not only that, new things...new things New things and feasible.

Because the...the people who are directing

the research were from this soil. Yeah.

Now, the people who are directing the research is

displaced people from other places. Yeah yeah.

So, therefore, that...that...the...the, I am not denying these

are all very modern thing. For...for example,

I will tell you an example, the material that

we are now looking for, one of the material is

the oxygen reduction electrode,

it...it is a very exotic electrode ok.

If I know how oxygen is getting reduced,

I know about the life, I can tell you how long I will live,

on what day I will die. What is that? Again.

Oxygen reduction...because...that oxygen

only because we are only consuming oxygen. Yeah.

And the oxygen is combusting our food. Right.

Carbohydrate. Right.

So, therefore, oxygen has to get reduced to O2 minus

O2 Yeah, yeah.

has to get reduced to O2 minus.

This reduction reaction has to be understood.

If this reduction reaction has been understood by our scientist...saints,

that is why they were able to predict when you will

die and all those things. Right.

Now, we are not able to do that. I see I see I see.

So, therefore, the...this is an...it is a very electrochemical

reaction, that is all. Here, two electron transfer,

two...an oxygen atom. It is a four electron transfer,

but we will not go into the details.

So, therefore, this is the...the it has to...it...

is it now available electrode is platinum,

but in our body, there is no platinum.

So therefore, there is some some bio

biomolecule that is doing this.

And we should repeat...repeat that

biomolecule in a...in a material. Yeah.

So, the the material is FeN4,

it is a iron phenanthroline complex. I see.

The phenanthroline is nitrogen containing compound.

So now, four...four ligands of phenanthroline.

Therefore, with the structure of the final compound will be FeN4.

For chemists, it will be a very wonderful material,

because there is no valency, nothing is satisfied here.

So, this FeN4 is a very important material in the United States today.

Anybody who is working on FeN4,

they will be given the grant from NSF.

But we cannot afford to use that,

we...we...we, I even published a paper in 2002 or 2003.

On FeN4. I see.

Showing that it will be a very good oxidation...

oxygen reduction electrode.

This, you will ask me immediately,

even if some few students were asking when they read it,

why you did not continue?

At that time, the facilities were there,

only I can do...only theoretical calculations,

I could not do an experiment at that time. The...

so the...and even today,

we cannot afford to do those those research here,

you can publish. Yeah.

And get some name and all those things,

that is all very different,

but what is there...they...outcome for this country.

Ok, now...again I will...and...it is...see the,

I told you that we had Russian visitors and all that.

You know we were one of those who...

who got at least a catalysis laboratory.

You know, one of the Russians came and spent more than a month or two,

remember the name of that person? Ermakov.

Not Ermakov.

There was a junior scientist,

who came and worked in our lab for 1 month.

I don’t remember.

1979, you were very much there. Yeah, yeah.

I am not able to get his name.

And we...in fact, I introduced him, to nitrous oxide.

I told him...see he was interested in Catalytic Reaction

and all that and I said ok

you...we had...we had purchased all that

the various parts required for building a chromatogram.

So, I told him, you can set up a chromatogram,

and you can show the student.

Then I told him, see,

three or four students are working on nitrous oxide decomposition,

you just get used to that and he worked with them.

He was very...he was very friendly with all the students,

even went with them to part of South India and all that.

I am not able to get his name, but I will tell you,

he was the person who later patented

the oxidation of benzene to phenol, using nitrous oxide.

Now, you remember the name?

But, I know this reaction, benzene to. Yeah, yeah the...he...

the nitrous oxide was the...

he was introduced the nitrous oxide by us

in my...in our laboratory because I told him,

he asked me, "Why are you interested?"

I said one reason we are interested, is a very simple reaction.

So we can do a large number of compounds,

we can investigate and we...it tells us about the

Redox behaviour and so many other things.

Anyway, that was different, you were doing carbon monoxide oxidation,

these were the two things you were developing.

But just remember, the type of catalyst we tried,

or the type of oxides we tried,

they later received importance in materials chemistry.

For example, the cation A4 structures,

and remember you were working on the manganites,

do you remember what we lost in the manganites finally?

That was the... This.

This Nobel Prize has given in 1980s and '90s, manganites. Yeah, yeah.

What was those? Again, I forget.

That is a Perovskite Structure. Perovskite Structure,

you see the...substituted.

Yes. Same thing, cation F4.

I was doing the B-side substitution, whereas,

A side substitution, it was done

and they got the CO3 plus.

CO3 plus, I had also observed it,

but I had no way of checking it,

because I did not have X-Ray photoelectron spectrometer.

Remember, we tried to do that for the first thing with

that student Madhavan? Yes.

So, who is no more. We...we

XPS with that. Yeah, XPS of that.

We actually, even now that is a fertile field,

we looked at the satellite peaks,

not the main peak. Yeah, yeah satellite position that one

that’s what I said, you see there is...see,

do you at any time,

not that one should get a Nobel Prize or anything like that.

If one of the thing which is being

pointed out again and again is,

India has...it says it has done this thing, that thing,

it has not produced Nobel Prize.

And do you believe,

at least because you have worked on various thing,

that then we might have reached a stage,

reached a stage where it was

going to fetch a Nobel Prize, but we did not pursue it.

Ok ok in the in the next few years, we will be...I mean.

No, no it at least even earlier, we had worked on areas,

Yeah, but. Later, we let...we left it out.

Nobel Prize is a very different question Sir,

we will not discuss that one ok. No no not

like that, for not...Nobel

that we got it or not,

because at that level of research,

we have been doing, Yes yes.

That’s exactly what I am asking. Definitely, definitely.

The exactly what I am...just like you said that

somebody in US said that, 67 percent of storage

and you proved that it is nonsense.

Same way, when somebody said a nickel compound

was showing superconductivity,

just like the copper compound, and then,

only two people in the whole world has reported it.

And then I asked one of the co-workers and one of the students,

one of the Professors who reported,

do you agree with that one?

He said, "Whether I agree or not,

my Professor and another Professor,

they claim they have observed it...superconductivity."

I don’t want to name,

it was a nickel compound, corresponding,

not the copper compound, nickel compound

and the...one of the scientist of course, an Indian

another was an American scientist.

So, what I am telling is...that such things do happen.

And I know of times when you were very depressed,

say when you were about to publish something,

or about...and somebody else has done something,

or, you are not able to do something,

because of lack of facilities and all that.

And I think over time you must have got over all those feelings.

So, what is your programme, for the next next

two or three years?

Ok, next to two or three years,

because you may be knowing, that at the moment,

my worry is about the Indian Science, that’s all ok.

That is why we are conducting a course called the Orientation Programme.

Orientation Programme is meant for research scholars,

even the DST has many times ridiculed me,

what you can teach to a Ph. D. student?

Teach. Ok, Ph. D. students will... Students current...

the course were conducting now? Yeah yeah

it is the seventh...18th year.

Continuously 18 years, I have conducted.

Which department?

It is the Catalysis Division, a Catalysis Centre.

Oh, I see, oh I see this catalysis...no.

That is. I not...you are now a guest faculty while coming, so, I thought you were

only doing that. No no no it is a...it is Catalysis Centre,

it was done...done on behalf of the Chemistry Department

from 1999 onwards.

I see. This is the 18th year.

We will, at the at the time I used...because the fund is required,

because the research scholars have to be brought from various places,

Some 30-40 research scholars will be brought here,

kept here for 3 weeks or 4 weeks,

and they will be given an orientation to research in catalysis.

I see. And we have trained about 600 to 700 people

in this 17 courses,

out of which, 300 people are top class research scholars

in the world today, and they are all with...with the

in communication with me,

day to day not a...a stray communication.

I mean... They come on...online and discuss with me,

"I...we...I...I we are doing this research, whether it is...

can you give me some suggestion about that", and all that.

This is spread internationally. Yes

and that is one thing, in...in...it it is not

international because it DST Funding,

because we...we cannot sponsor the candidates from abroad.

No no not candidates the...

The students. The candidates who are trained are abroad now. Yeah

That...the...the students have gone abroad,

because they, Yeah, yeah. They did Ph. D. and all that.

Now, even...even foreign students have attended this course.

When they applied for this course,

I used to tell the, "We will take care of your local expenses."

That is. "But we can we cannot give you the travel allowance,

you manage."

So, they spent from their pocket and attended this course.

Is...from Germany, from USA, from...from Australia.

I see. Is it publicized in any of this?

I do not know, the, but it is even now

it...in the next course is 18th course, its starting on December...

the November 27th.

I see I see I see.

DST has...very well recognized this now.

As a matter of fact, wherever DST exhibits something,

they will talk about this course only,

first...the first to projection will be on this course only.

Oh, I see, I did not know that, I see, anyway I am not.

Anyway the...leave it alone.

So, therefore, this is one thing.

Second thing is, we have...we have now launched

at least about...this year itself, that is be...2017,

we are...we are in the 4th online course.

Nothing is required,

all that you required is a computer that is all.

I see, online.

This is for educating people.

This is the second thing, we are doing.

Third thing that...I...we are doing is,

since I have some facilities to write,

I...I write a many books, even now there is a book,

if I tell you, you will be surprised

that title itself, 'Carbon Dioxide to Chemicals and Fuels'

Right. Because carbon dioxide is a waste, that is what people think.

But, if I were to take the carbon dioxide

and can convert it to...to chemicals and fuels,

I am closing that cycle.

But it is going to be a technology,

30 years from now, or 20 years from now,

but I have written a book now, on that.

And one of the leading publishers of the world,

look...looking at the title, they approved it, nothing else.

Not...they did not even ask me to give a...

usually they ask two or three chapters.

Yeah. They...the...the top manager told,

"No no, we don’t want any chapter from you."

Oh. "We are agreeing to publish it,

so, you complete the book and send it to us."

I see ok, now, I know that right from the inception,

up to now, you are connected with the

Catalysis Society of India,

in various capacities, and it...it’s continuing.

Now, what will be the future, of course,

you are leaving it in good hands and going.

You must have conducted a lot of QIP programmes,

and FIP programmes and all that.

So as you say, we are now doing this Orientation Programme

which is...now you also were involved

some time...about the Library Science, in the sense

before all this...the present thing of talking about the...

what is that...citation index and what is the number?

Impact number. Impact factor. Yeah, I know

all that even before that...that American who was

bringing out that Current Contents, what is his name?

The person who started all this

along with Arunachalam. Yeah, yeah Arunachalam.

One person, I forget the name of that,

he visited IIT once. Yeah, yeah.

So, he visited and you had arranged a lecture.

He just now passed away.

I see I see. two...one...one year back.

Great man, some starting with G or something like that.

Yeah. I am forgetting the name, and you had written some

ways of classification and all that,

you have written some books also, I mean...articles on that.

Now what is your...that number?

Citation...Impact Factor.

Impact Factor, what is your impact factor?

Not impact factor, that number,

the number of times the paper is quoted,

so, what. That is what is the...for the journal, it is Impact Factor,

for the individual, it is Citation Index.

Now? Now, it is also there Google...Google is doing that.

No no no not I am not talking of this

impact factor, the citation index,

but then from that you derive another thing.

There are many other term terms that can. No, no

that is you; I saw. Immediacy index is one of them.

How, how immediacy is your research is there.

So, in then...for example, if I publish a paper today,

the next two years, whether it is seen...seen or not.

I see, I see that also is there. That is...yeah yeah yeah,

this is called immediacy index,

there are many index indices. No no, but you have

you...other day I was asking you you told me something your

number. There are many many many.

No no more than 70, what is that one?

What is the number, number of papers have been quoted

so many times. Yeah, yeah.

What is that number known as?

What is that you...

That is. You are talking of the impact, I am not talking of the impact factor.

Impact factor is for the journals.

Journal. So, it is not citation index,

based on the citation index,

you evaluate a number,

that is yours its coming to 70 or something like, that

you are telling scholastic.

I don’t remember now.

We got Professor C. N. R. Rao’s 300.

Yeah, yeah I remember that.

What is that number? What is that number known as?

How is it your also forget the number...

that’s a number which everybody quotes,

Because for Bhatnagar Award, you should have at least 25.

Yeah, yeah. So, I remember that one,

that’s why I am asking here.

And if you are more...you were

fellow of more than two Indian academies, the,

I think the Government will give some 50000, 15000 rupees or so,

I think, possibly DST give, I don’t remember.

So, that is something many people would like to...

are trying to get.

Mister Kumaran, I wanted to ask some questions to...

Kumaran Sathasivam: Yes, Sir. Sir, can I ask you about

Kumaran: what IIT’s reputation was in '64 when you joined it,

Kumaran: as an M. Sc. graduate, how did you...

Kumaran: what was your perception of IIT at that point because

Kumaran: in that student circle,

Kumaran: was it well known as an excellent institute as...? Oh, no no.

Kumaran: And how did you apply and what happened? Yes,

Kumaran: I just wanted to know about that, Sir. I applied because

I knew one of the Professors in Madras University at that time,

he recommended me to join IIT,

because he came and taught me in M. Sc. in Saint Joseph’s.

So, B. S Thyagarajan, he only introduced me to IIT.

So, when I...when I came, I...

I have seen all the convocations in this Institute. Yes.

From '64 onwards.

Oh very good, very good. Ok

so, the...anyway that is a different thing.

Yes. So, at that time, IIT,

especially IIT Madras ok,

I will talk about IIT Madras because IIT Madras is one of the top IITs,

there is no doubt about that ok.

So, at that time, IIT Madras was not very well known.

So, therefore, those of us who are the first few batches,

we have to make an advertisement for IIT Madras.

I have made some...that attempt also.

For example, in the rural areas at that time,

the JEE was not even known.

Kumaran: Yes. The, the village from which I am coming,

it is a very...very knowledgeable village,

but the...they did not know the JEE.

In the...in the...the first batch or second batch,

the M. Sc. is the...B. Tech. students,

at least five or six of them are because I told them to write the JEE.

Kumaran: Ok. That is how the IIT glo...glory comes,

I am not see claiming that I did the whole thing ok,

that is how the IIT glory of...IIT Madras glory came up.

The...the because at that time, we were coming from villages,

and...villagers were not even knowing that there is an IIT.

And they even if they know IIT,

they did not know how to apply for JEE

and...write the JEE

because JEE system, even today,

because even now I am...is somewhere connected with the JEE

ok. JEE is not with IIT now,

the main paper, it is with the Government

Secondary Education Board,

but anyway we will not talk about all those things.

So, therefore, JEE is a different...

different cup of tea for all...all the Indians,

that must be very...very clearly known to us.

So, therefore, the people from the villages,

they did not know about JEE at that time.

Now it is known...that...that is because now it is 50 years.

Kumaran: Yes. So, at that time the JEE was not even known.

In spite of the fact, my village is one of the well...well...

well exposed to other...other areas.

Kumaran: And...and you chose to join a relatively new institution in

Kumaran: in favour of a larger organization. When, I...

when I...when I joined, Kumaran: Yes.

There was no room, only cement bags were there.

Kumaran: I see. I see.

I...I...I do not know whether you remember,

I sat in a room, where in a...in a...in a...one side of the room

only cement bags will be there.

Kumaran: I see. With the cement.

Kumaran: This...this was BSB Sir?

No no...HS...HSB.

You. No he...by the time we joined, we had moved to HSB. HSB right.

He have had moved to HSB. Right.

Now, they...the...the things were getting added,

there was no German equipment I think,

one by one we started getting by other fundings.

But our laboratory was

better equipped than mess...most of the laboratories

and I...I hope you will not mistake me,

if I raise one of his hands for your sake.

See this finger,

his interest in the laboratory,

one day he started a motor,

and then the motor was not starting.

And he didn't see that the switch is on

and he started rotating,

his...his finger got...under got cut.

And then it was collected...it was thrown,

it was collected put in liquid nitrogen,

he was rushed to the railway hospital.

But, unfortunately, by that time I think it was

it had decom...I mean the...it has started deteriorating.

So, they could not...

I mean I always remember you know,

a part of that finger is gone,

it happened in the HSB laboratory. So...so

Kumaran: So, what was the. Thank you.

Kumaran: Can, I can I just add a few more questions, Sir? Please ask.

Kumaran: What was the procedure for selection to a Ph. D.

Kumaran: you joined the Ph. D. programme when you came to IIT first

Kumaran: and who are the staff members who,

Kumaran: I mean the faculty members who interviewed you and.

At that time. Kumaran: I mean Director.

At that time, the three stalwarts in the Chemistry...or four stalwarts

M. V. C. Sastri, J. C. Kuriacose,

V. Srinivasan and C. N. Pillai, Aravamudan

these are the five people who grilled us.

Really grilled us. And also we have this examination,

at that time also the same type of examination,

and the examination is...used to be very very tough.

Actually, even now I remember Kuriacose to...

Did you have viva voce or?

Viva...not viva voce, written examination only.

Oh, you had a written exam I see...I see.

Five papers we have to write. Alright.

So to. No no for joining the IIT thing

you need not... No, no.

Joining was only interview. Joining only...joining was interview only.

Yeah. Not written exam.

Yeah. Right.

But after joining, the qualification

for...for example, Kuriacose paper,

none of us pay...passed, only I passed.

Ok. All the three of us, three of us we were there in the...in that batch,

only I passed, that too because I took a challenge with him.

Kumaran: And about your wardenship, you said you had a

Kumaran: term as warden,

Kumaran: how many years and which hostels you were in?

So, ok I...I spent first as a Assistant Warden,

Cauvery, Krishna, then as warden in Ganga Hostel,

then as Chairman Counsil of Wardens.

So, therefore, nearly 30 years I was associated with... Kumaran: Ok. The hostels.

You were also connected with Gymkhana.

Yeah, yeah Gymkhana Cultural Advisor,

Weaker Section Advisor,

many...many roles. No, you were,

I think in this sports day this one,

his photograph has been put in the...

on the...in our...the portico.

I...because. You can. I was Dean Students also.

Dean Students...I Dean Students I think he was.

Kumaran: Right. Be in that so.

I occupied all positions in this Institute. Right, right.

Is there that person there? So...

Kumaran: Yes, yeah.

Is there anything you want to ask him you are.

And B. V., Some of your...some of the books

that you have written, and if you have a spare copy,

at least general books, not exactly on subject

things that we would very much like to have it in the Heritage Centre

and we don’t mind buying it also,

he is prepared to buy it,

but then if you can give it Yes. As a...this one

because we are collecting, you are an alumnus,

so, as an alumni, we would like to collect all those books.

Spoken to you and then elicited lot of information

and I think, if there was another chance,

I would have spent a few more hours with you talking about this.

Thank you very much.

Sir, thank you. Thank you, thank you very much for giving me this opportunity.

Contribute
to the Centre
Monetary
Support
Digital
Material

< Back

Prof. N. Rajagopalan and Prof. R. Radhakrishnan in conversation with Prof. Kalyana Raman (Retd. faculty, Dept. of Civil Engineering)

We are here today

to record the Oral History Programme

with the Heritage Centre

with Professor R. Radhakrishnan

and Professor N. Rajagopalan

from the Civil Engineering Department.

I am Kalyanaraman from also from Civil Engineering Department,

very thankful to you for joining us this afternoon sir.

Professor Radhakrishnan you are one of the

earliest faculty to join the institute way back.

So, will you please give a brief outline

of how you joined the institute,

what your background was prior to joining the institute.

At the time of your joining

there was an interview. Yes.

Can you, can you briefly play out

what was - how you were interviewed

in those days for a faculty? To be very frank

first time I was interviewed in Vice Chancellor's chamber, it's called, A. L. Mudaliar was the Vice Chancellor

he was the Chairman of the Board of Governors.

so the meeting was held in the interview was held in

Madras University, Vice Chancellor's chamber they call it.

I think first time I was not selected,

second round second time only I was selected;

I don’t know the reason for that one.

Second time also I applied

the main reason for that one was

at that time Madras University had 70 percent and above was

First Class, no I got 74.5. I was put in Second Class.

So, I remember quite remember asked me

I got this one class called First Class, do you know?

Yes, sir I don’t know what happened,

then we reshuffled our degrees,

they made it 60 percent First Class

and we were given First Class degree.

So, second time when I came for an interview,

I was First Class MSc,

this 1st rank, of course, that is always there

they don’t bother about 1st rank,

they want First Class at that time.

So, I was not selected first time,

second time I was selected. So, who were all the

who were all there in the committee selection committee? Committee at the time

A. L. Mudaliar was Chairman here. Professor -

Doesn’t matter if you don’t remember.

I remember But

were they Chief Engineer Madras ...

Chief - everybody was there I remember.

Where it says tested at that time more for your

teaching abilities or research abilities when they interviewed? No, only teaching.

Only teaching ability. Research abilities.

It was a time when as I just interviewed

Abraham was the Chief Engineer of Tamil Nadu

and A. L. Mudaliar was the Chairman.

See as far I am concerned

I joined institute in 61, December.

At this at that time Civil Engineering faculty

strength was 7. I was the 8th faculty to join.

And, earlier I was in Irrigation Research Station

Pundi as a PWD staff member.

Back in 59 when the institute was inaugurated

at CLRI campus, I was a

student leader of College of Engineering, Guindy.

So, I was invited for it ... as a student

when we see such a big function, was elated

and saying that I should become a member of IIT,

that was my motivation.

And, I didn’t know about how teaching is

going to be or how research is going to be

or industry going to be.

But with all that that A. L. Mudaliar was there,

Nehru was there to inaugurate - Jawaharlal Nehru

was there - Pandit Nehru, for I was motivated to come.

From Pundi I applied here

and I was only B.Tech degree holder

that is a BE degree holder,

BE Honours was the degree

for me because after certain about 66.56 percent

you are getting a degree called BE Honours of

the then Madras University College of Engineering Guindy,

as one of the rank holders and therefore,

I was called in for interview.

The interview was at CLRI

because there is nothing here, interview was CLRI.

The Director Sengupto was the Chairman,

A. L. Mudaliar could not come on that day

and it was even for the Associate Lecturer's

position the Chairman of the Interview Committee

was the Chairman of the Board of Governors.

And, the expert member I do remember

happens to be my own professor at

College of Engineering, Guindy.

It was Professor V. Kalyanaraman

and I was pleasantly surprised to see

a known figure on that panel.

And I was the first Associate Lecturer to be selected

at college at IIT Madras

and afterwards, within 6 months from that day,

the rank of Associate Lecturer was made temporary.

Therefore, we had only 3 Associate Lecturers

in the institute as permanent Associate Lecturers.

And I was the one amongst them

and the first amongst them,

I joined the department there were only 8, 7 faculties;

I joined as 8th and I was the youngest

of the faculty members of there.

And, afterwards the department developed

and my motivation I have already told you

because of that meeting,

that made me come to this place.

So, you have said you attended the

inaugural programme of the institute

in you know where was this held? At CLRI campus.

So. It is between A. C. College and CLRI,

no in CLRI and A. C. College. A. C.

Yes, it's a big area open,

even now there is an auditorium there.

At that place a big pandal was erected

and Pandit Nehru was there to inaugurate.

As a student member

I was invited for that and I went there.

Do you remember anything that

professor you know Nehru said on that day of inauguration

anything that I was too so young for that to understand

that what he is talking about. Ok.

But, he was talking about

see originally he made one mention -

College of Engineering, Guindy, was

to be upgraded to IIT,

that was the first intention.

When the IIT system was thought of

when it is a, as it was announced that meeting, Kamaraj wanted

two good institutes in Madras itself,

that is at that time Madras, Chennai

that’s Tamil Nadu, Chennai and all were not there.

Two good institute he said that

we would have one more institute

and that will be institute of technology that’s how

we got IIT Chennai separately,

otherwise it would have been

College of Engineering upgraded to - I mean IIT Madras.

But, it was decided to have that

and that's - that was mentioned in the meeting,

when, it was I think it is the Education Minister

it is C. Subramaniam I suppose.

I don’t remember the name of that time,

but the main aim is to have one more institute.

And, I think as you said Kamaraj was

one main force behind IIT Madras coming.

Coming to Chennai. Chennai.

Not only that actually the this thing

the reason is not that correct

in the government wanted to have the administration control.

Central government. Yes, no the state government.

Administration control they wanted to have it

which the Central government refused. Central government.

So, IIT was started, otherwise I would have gone to

Guindy Engineering College. Ok.

That is the main reason. Ok.

Now, the both of you did not have a PhD

Yes, yes. when you joined IIT Madras.

Thing things have changed a lot

since then, now things are very different. Yes.

Can you go through your joining this department,

how you had to qualify yourself

to be in a PhD, both of you got

PhD. Actually, it is really interesting

I got only BE degree - BE Honours degree -

when I joined, then I found that

all of theirs faculty members are MSc

and I wanted to qualify myself for MSc

and ask for leave just after 1 year.

And, that time they said we are going to start M.Tech

and you, you can do part time M.Tech,

that was the assurance given by the

then Director and Registrar Natarajan,

I met him personally

and both the Director and Registrar, they said

why don’t you do it here?

Because, to get an admission at Anna University,

that is then College of Engineering, Guindy,

for a postgraduate programme

the admission is based on so many reservations,

it's very difficult.

I was fortunate to get one;

therefore, I was pleading that I should get that,

the second is at that time it is 18 months

programme for a postgraduate at

College of Engineering, Guindy.

Whereas, an IIT started the programme

started straight away with 2 years;

that means, I will be studying for 6 more months

they said for part time, it will take 3 years for you,

for was one and a half years

I was going to be delayed, if the degree is that.

I pleaded and they said, no, we cannot send

a faculty member of IIT

to College of Engineering, Guindy. Right.

If at all, you have to resign.

I didn’t feel like resigning and therefore,

I stayed back for I was the first

part-time M.Tech student of IIT Chennai

and IIT Madras.

In Madras IIT Madras.

Even today it is IIT Madras Chennai only.

IIT Madras Civil Engineering

Department or IIT Madras itself Civil Engineering.

IIT Madras Civil Engineering Department. Ok.

It was the ... then the Head of the Department

was also one C. G. Swaminathan

was the Head of the Department,

when I was interviewed.

By the time I joined in December

He left. C. G. Swaminathan has left

and Professor K. A. Shankaran was the

man in charge of the department,

he was an Assistant Professor.

And it was in 62 Professor Varghese joined

Professor - May, June of - Varghese.

For the Structural Engineering,

whether to start a Postgraduate in

Structural Engineering was in question.

Because, Professor Rouvé was the professor in hydraulics

and therefore, they were sure to have

a Postgraduate in Hydraulics

and Water Resource, there was only Hydraulic Engineering,

but when Varghese joined the as

Head of the Department they started structures also.

It was a - it was a tough time for me

whether to join Hydraulics as well as or structures.

Since I was in Irrigation Research Station Pundi earlier,

Rouvé wanted me to join Hydraulics

whereas, I wanted to stay in Structural Engineering.

So, after lot of discussions I came to

Structural Engineering, that was a

part-time program for an M.Tech.

At that time PhD programs were not there

at all in the institute

because there are not enough research

Degree holders in the institute as faculty members.

If I remember correct, total faculty

strength was less than 100,

all accommodated in Building Sciences

Block - only less than 100.

I would say that Civil Engineering had 8,

Mechanical Engineering may have about 11 to 12

and that’s all the department.

And, all ... not many

I don’t say even 1 or 2 had PhD in that;

only in Science Departments

Professor M.V.C. Sastry, Professor Rama Sastry

and Mathematics professor at that time S. K. Srinivisan

and earlier team is. Adiga.

Das, Das in this case. They were the persons

who were having PhD degrees.

Hence, there was no question of research

being started at that age.

This should be guided by - Guided

There is no research guidance facility,

though the ideas were there.

If I can talk a little more on that,

it was that the period was stated

to be by Professor Sengupto,

let us stabilize education,

B.Tech degree education goes

and development of the institute;

that was his intentions of having

the first few years' activities in IIT Madras.

Yeah. Hence, the research was such

was started little later

when A. Ramchandran took over as the Director.

We will come to the research also.

So, you went on finish your M Tech.

yeah and then went on to - when did you do your PhD?

After M.Tech, I stayed for 3 years as lecturer here,

then I was...there is a Institute Scholarship

for DAAD: Scholarship for faculty members

and it is for 1 year, extendable for one more year,

2 years. In fact, very many faculty member at that time

Yeah went on to do

Went on to do PhD in this thing.

Not PhD, they were...the contract

or the agreement signed between

the German government and Indian government

is that they will finish that PhD only in India

and they will get the degree only

in Indian Institute of Technology

and they can have their training in Germany.

Accordingly, all the members

who went there were going there for 1 year

a little more than that,

but I was keen in doing a PhD there.

Therefore, I didn’t go through this institute route.

Secondly, amongst the Civil Engineering staff,

I was the junior most.

Hence, the chances of getting into that

group is also, was very difficult.

For I went through the Government of India’s

scholarship scheme, wherein there were

at least 10 candidates were selected per year

to sent, to be sent to Germany.

I was one selected in that group

and therefore, I went to Germany in 1970, 69 and 70.

And, I decided to do PhD.

There was also some difficulty because,

the department has given me leave for 1 year

as usual for then, 6 months extra

then I said I would prefer to go on - leave on -

Loss of pay. - loss of pay,

but the institute said no, as a policy

we should go leave with pay for 18 months.

I went there and then I used the influence

of the professor at Germany

to get it extended for next 6 months they gave me,

the institute also paid me for the second year.

When I applied for the third year institute,

then Registrar C. V. Sethunathan

sent a very very strong reply,

very strong for me as an youngster.

Said that you better return to the India immediately

or get out to this institute immediately,

you choose between these two;

such was the wordings of that letter.

I showed him to my then professor at Germany

he...see, he with all this experience

for me it was not a - rather than a threat,

for him it was enjoyable joke.

And, he said don’t bother we will make you -

He talked to the German consulate

and also the German Ministry

and he said that I have decided to

offer him a PhD here, Dr-Ing here;

please tell me the procedure

by which we can get it done.

They said the procedure is, as far as

we are concerned, we have no problem.

But, we have problem from the Indian government.

The Indian government again refused to say

that you cannot get a degree from Germany,

you should get a degree only from India.

And therefore, they said extended

the scholarship for 6 more months,

2 years and 6 months, please advise him

to go back to India for

doing to completing his research.

And I was keen in getting a German degree,

I told my German professor

if that is the case I would resign from IIT Chennai.

Then also a letter came saying that

if you were to resign, you have to pay back the

salaries paid to you for two and half years.

It's a very huge sum for me

and therefore, as in a dilemma

once again the professor,

German professor came into discussions.

He wrote to the Indian government that ... the ...

if the main aim of IIT is to,

for development of academic activities,

I should see that this letter is withdrawn.

And, it was the Director then A. Ramachandran

who said yes the letter is withdrawn

and I was asked to do that.

But, Government of India

refused to give me scholarship,

because they said that as per the

agreement between two ministries,

we are not supposed to give

for more than two and half years.

For the - I was supported by the Department of

Civil Engineering or Structural Engineering

in Stuttgart University.

And they gave me assistantship for 6 months

and I completed in 3 years

and one of the shortest period, completed in 3 years.

And also last 2 months because the

viva voce or what we call it as viva voce

there they say, that’s called a mündliche Prüfung mündliche

Prüfung and that was delayed

and they said for the 2 months

professor himself gave his support for me,

personal support from his consultancy assignment

for completed and then he came back to me.

He was also offering me a job in India

in his company which was

having a work at Calcutta, cable-stayed bridge;

he can say that you can go and join there.

I said no, the institute has done me so much,

I would not like to leave the institute

and came back and joined institute.

And at that time there was a small back home

the Director Ramachandran left the institute

and Professor Sampath was holding incharge

and the director's position was not defend,

interviews were held, number of selections were made.

And afterwards the final, of course,

I was not interviewed,

but selected in the - based on my application.

I joined here - the - the date of joining

the rank of Assistant Professor declared,

but I was not allowed to join as Assistant Professor

because I left the institute as lecturer.

I was join - asked to this - join as lecturer

then I got the Assistant Professor

and then the actual research for activity

as that is the PhD research then the,

my own research is only from that onwards.

Sir how about you sir, you also joined with an MS

and then you got a PhD.

That was in engineering, Structural Engineering

College of Engineering, Guindy.

So, after that, here as so the registration was there.

Of course, we have few people

after - Dr. Professor Varghese joined the department.

So, one PhD must be there - they guided

and we registered for PhD.

So, first batch of students,

staff members sent to Germany.

I was one among them,

but it was only for 1 year.

See, I have, we have to get trained, do the work

and then complete it,

come here and complete that's the condition.

So, of course, I was having a family

So, I didn’t want to continue there forever.

So, 1 year it was extend for another 3 months,

I was in Brunswick.

After 4 months language course in small village

where the population was about 1000,

400 people and 600 cows.

Then I went back to ... Brunswick,

where my, it was Brunswick institute was

connected with this Structural Engineering Department:

Professor Eibl, Professor Kordina, all those things were there.

So, I was there doing my research work there.

I completed almost except the major part of it

the small or the other one I have finished.

And I came back with all my things in 19-

I think I went in - even forgot - 67 I went,

69 April I came back,

but it took some time for me

to complete because that model

I have to make a real model

and then very small this one

and then it is a big shell

actually it is a mathematical cum

this one Experimental life.

Experimental. Both very difficult

Actually I forgot ... you didn’t mention the name of the

institute where you do PhD.

I did my PhD in the University of Stuttgart. Stuttgart.

Institute (unclear) University of Stuttgart

So, I was from Brunswick I came there.

It took quite some time for me to complete the work.

Of course, after that

the ... those days two Germans must be from abroad,

not in IIT one Indian one foreign now.

At that time both exams was abroad

and then the viva will be conducted in India by two examiners.

So, one examiner was very quick

in sending his report then 2, 3 months

I got my the other examiner took just 2 years.

2 years again Yes.

ok. That is only a luck,

there can’t, before that everybody

who went after me to Germany got their doctorates

and got their promotions, everything else - I was -

Ok. The - the - flavor of the department

or the constitute of the department

that you joined when you mentioned that

there were only 7 faculties.

7 - 8 - 8 faculty along including And - and - from you are including.

And in the early stages you know

how was the department?

You know today the department is probably about 50 you know. Yes.

Yeah. So, how was the department in those days?

See, there's only a Civil Engineering Department as a whole,

now, we have Structural Engineering Wing,

Water Resources Wing etcetera,

there are only Civil Engineering Department.

Those 8 consisted of 2 - 1 person from Hydraulics,

1 Assistant Engineer who was working as

Assistant Engineer in this institute

was also teaching here leading to

I mean Estimation and such subjects, he is doing that.

There is no recognized person in Environmental Engineering,

actually 1 Hydraulics man was there - Panduranga Rao,

in Survey 1 man was there, Nagaraja was there. Nagaraja.

Structures, friend Radhakrishnan was there

and Dr. D he was again not Dr. Victor,

he was Mr. Victor Johnson, he was there

and so, from Soil Mechanics

and Highways put together

was under the control of Professor Shankaran Shankaran.

that was. This was the earliest of the faculty

members in the department Yeah.

as we know it. Actually I was - I joined

the department 63, 68. Yes.

And, I think you were a faculty

at that time and even I was a faculty at that time,

I do remember that I have

taught you one course on Structural Analysis. Yes.

Myself, I mean I taught

and I could remember your face

as well as M. S. Venugopal.

Yes. Who happened to do his PhD along with me

and you two were the quote unquote Yeah.

"Bright students of the class"

which I was, very well remembering that.

Now, there was good, very good this one,

I had very good innings in

Civil Engineering Department no doubt about it.

To give a small example,

last year I was going - I was in Bangalore,

my son is in Bangalore.

I was in Bangalore, I was going in Namma rail,

Namma Metro I was just travelling

with first batch Sujith Chandra,

who was a board member

and railway board member. Railway board member.

He came to me and said he was very much

attached to me, I don't know the reason,

he said we will go sir

he was in charge of structural of

you know. No, I would very easily

say. Namma Metro.

So, we were going.

So, we were going the train

myself, Sujith Chandra, and V. R. Nagaraja;

the man who I helped him in survey in those days,

because he has some language problem,

he is a Karnataka man;

suddenly one student came,

sir do you remember me?

So, suddenly if you ask me how do I remember.

Sir, I was your student in IIT Civil Engineering,

my name is so and so, thank you very much.

So, he was so happy and then at the end

you know what he did,

sir I should like to take a selfie with you.

Good, thank you very much.

I think many many faculties from the institute,

they do; this just happen you know

people suddenly happen. Train.

Suddenly at train. See actually there are only 16 students

in the first batch,

for everybody there are only 8 faculties and 16 students.

So, staff ratio is 1 is to 2

and you are so, closely associated

and my advantage is

my age group was very near to them.

Therefore, I was to be fact

one of the students who finished his

BA Honours in Mathematics,

when I was intermediate

he was my classmate intermediate.

He finished his BA Honours

and come and joined BE B.Tech here,

by then I joined as a faculty.

Therefore that was the intimacy of the student faculty,

it is very interesting for us.

In fact, even the campus was very small I remember.

Very small. Very very small

I remember that you know the

that the hostel that came into existence.

Cauvery and Krishna. Cauvery and Krishna.

Tapti hostel. No.

And Tapti came later.

Yeah, when I joined.

Professor Shankaran was the warden of the hostel.

Oh. You know when I joined

Professor Shankaran was the warden of the hostel.

No, it was - The ... actually, in those days

how was the department academic structure

different from later? For example,

as you were mentioning that - that -

the Director was concentrating on building an institute,

so, very many of you were involved in

building the departments of the institute,

can you share your experiences in that ...

No, I was 61 I joined

67 I was sent to present abroad.

In the meantime, the 6 years, the department was

very well coming up, only in teaching.

There was no absolutely research is fully

Yes but teaching labs were coming up

Yeah. So, you were involved in

that kind of - Yes exactly already I was doing that

So (unclear) I have been to actually

Materials, Metallurgy. Applied Mechanics

So, concrete lab was there

and the other small laboratories (unclear)

because, there's no space.

The Building that was Science Department

only bottom was there

so one more information, Kalyan

that is, at that time

Civil Engineering was not assured of the aid

from the German government.

That’s why other departments had the laboratories developed

by the German assistants,

where Civil Engineering only

Hydraulic section had the German aid.

We didn’t have it.

For the development of the

concrete laboratory as well as -

it was not Structures Laboratory -

Concrete Laboratory with facilities

to test success was developed by indigenous things

and all for it was really slow in its development.

I remember even when I was a student,

we did not have a Structures Lab. It came up subsequently.

73 only we gained Structures Laboratory,

at that time it is in 1970 the German aid for the

Structural Engineering was assured. Yeah.

And that time only Professor

Plähn was the person. Ok.

And, Karl Kordina from the Brunswick,

where Professor Radhakrishnan was there,

was the coordinator from that place

and Plähn did the development of the laboratory here.

Can you just for example,

from, let us go a long distance

from the time you joined to the time

the department you left,

can you just - still - what were the major changes

that you yourself experienced in the process?

That is I - 61 I joined 93 I left,

32 years. I was only in the Civil Engineering Department.

So, the department in 1961 was not even there. Yes.

And when you went in 1992

you had the Structures Lab?

Structures And probably even

had the Dynamics Lab, is also already Yes

So, there is a change -

so. I had my students in Dynamics only.

For PhD. 2 students they did.

Actually one military man was there

I think, Ambodkare Right

I met him even last time, Mysore,

he is there, still. Both father and son

took degree on same day: he took his PhD,

his son took his B.Tech another day. Bachelor.

So, this development was very good

very fast at that time we can say

because, the early stage always we go very fast,

beginning. So, I can say I was very lucky also

you can say, you can say fortunate also,

but one thing was, I couldn't digest

still is the delay of my PhD, terrific it was.

I had the worst part of it that time,

it took nearly 4 years.

Submission to get the degree, nearly-

There is - there are students today

who take 6 years to finish PhD. No

No, no no 4 years from the date of submission

to award the degrees. Award, understand.

That is the period.

No, but total - total time was how much?

Total time I joined the middle 61, I joined.

PhD programme, you joined the PhD programme,

but Germany - from that time

to From that time, 67 to 72, 5 years only.

Because 72, I got my degree. 5 years.

So 5 years No, no, many people took it in

two, two and half years.

I understand but at those days -

Yes. But there is a - The thing is no the reason is I tell you, very frank,

there is nothing wrong in the -

it depends upon whom the thesis -

When thesis goes to. Yes.

That is the main thing.

So, one man sends it within few months,

other man sends in few years

So that- that helps a lot

Your experience in terms of

how you changed the department See,

changed - the department, see...

Can I go? As I joined, I was also

put in charge of the Concrete Laboratory.

The Concrete Laboratory was the

smallest material testing laboratory.

Therefore, we... whatever equipment

available in India, we were able to procure.

Money was not a problem for (unclear)

Only thing is, getting it abroad for major equipments

Sorry. we had difficulties.

In 70s whereas, in Hydraulics and Water Resources,

the German aid was there.

And, hence the ... a full fledged Hydraulics

Engineering Laboratory was built up,

as the one is the workshop based like that,

wave flumes came up

and lot of experimental facilities

with German equipment coming in was developed.

Whereas, the other laboratories

it took time. There was one senior faculty

who came from Madras University,

there College of Engineering Coimbatore,

Professor Dr. Mr. Muttayya who was very much active

in getting models or the specimens for Geology. Yeah.

And with his personal influence

he could develop the Geology Laboratory.

That is a - We used that. I remember still

the Geology course where we have - Geology Laboratory

with his personal influence

and he was more motivated as a teacher -

he had also written a book on that -

and he developed the Geology Laboratory.

It may may not be bad to talk about Dr. Muttayya

because I remember him as a student,

he is one who took lot of interest in Geology area.

But, he was also active on the campus

you know, in those days

there used to be a canteen.

He was in charge of the student

canteen. No, he started a cooperative society.

Cooperative store. Cooperative society.

So in fact, we as students used to

be able to buy books and things like that

from the cooperative store,

we used to get that book. No no,

Muttayya, he has at least - he has

at least about 20 years of experience

before he joined here,

at teaching at Coimbatore Institute.

And, in engineering institute

of recently good repute,

I mean a reasonably good repute.

Therefore, he knows the necessities of the students.

And he was well poised with the students

and he started a cooperative society for books,

and stationeries and all,

which the students found it very comfortable.

And, he was monitoring it

and he used to sit late in the evening

in the cooperative canteen

no, cooperative stores Stores.

and it was so economical for the students

to get the things from there,

one cheap and available in our campus itself.

In fact, those notebooks used to Thus.

have the IIT Madras printed on top of it.

Among the students in the city

it was a prestige to carry those notebooks.

So, I remember some of my friends from the other colleges

they had to come and buy the notebooks

from the cooperative store and take it out

and flaunt their institute,

I remember that. It was in - that was also in Building Sciences Block.

No, no, the -

Is laid outside - ...is in that. That was very interesting.

The Structural Engineering section -

I was talking about Hydraulics

and Geology Laboratory developed.

So also, Soil Mechanics which was

partly Highways and Soil Mechanics.

Since, the staff member or the person

who was in charge of Soil Mechanics

came from Central Road Research Institute;

therefore, the development started

in the Highways section first,

because Road Research Institute -

he was Professor Shankaran was

so much involved in the Road Research.

Therefore, the bitumen Highways Laboratory started

and it developed more than Soil Mechanics Laboratory.

Therefore, the next laboratory which came in

in a bigger way was Highways Laboratory.

Of course, Concrete Laboratory was developed

reasonably well because the equipments

available more in Chennai itself.

Therefore, we could purchase that.

That was the development of survey.

In 70, when the grant came

from the German government

for the Civil Engineering Laboratory,

Professor Plähn was nominated

or was sent to this place by Professor Karl Kordina

to take - to be in charge in the laboratory.

And, reasonably good coordination

with Professor Plähn, Professor Varghese.

Professor Varghese did not interfere in that

and he was just allowing Plähn to develop the laboratory.

Then Professor P. S. Rao who joined in 1967,

who was put in charge of that laboratory

from the Indian side. He had already got experience.

He had already got the experience from the Munich laboratory

where he did his PhD and he knows all the facilities

which is Munich laboratory.

Therefore, he wanted to have a replica of the

Munich University Laboratory, University of Munich Laboratory

under Professor Rüsch, that was one.

And, Professor Leonhardt came to India

on a - for a specific conference in Coimbatore,

he visited Madras and stayed about 5 days here.

And therefore, his input and also gave the facilities of

the development of laboratory as -

give - as done in Autograph Institute in Stuttgart,

for this particular laboratory was having the input from Karl

Kordina’s laboratory at Brunswick,

Professor Rüsch's ideas from Munich

and Professor Leonhardt’s ideas from Stuttgart.

But the model, the physical layout of the laboratory

is from that of Brunswick and it was done that way.

There was also an idea

whether to have a strong floor which is a -

which is a self straining system, but that was dropped out

and then we had a strong floor on the top

and supported by walls in the basement.

So, the basement could be used

for storing or some other purpose.

That’s the first laboratory.

Meanwhile, we had developed indigenously

structural testing systems in the

Concrete Laboratory itself which were then moved

to the Structural Engineering Laboratory.

And the advantage we had was

Professor T. P. Ganeshan and Dr. T. P. Ganeshan who was also

only Mr. T. P. Ganeshan didn’t do his doctorate,

he came from Highways Research Station at Chennai at Guindy.

And Highways Research Station in Tamil Nadu

was one of the - not in Tamil Nadu - in India,

it was the best Highways Research Station is in Tamil Nadu.

They had a big workshop also

and a workshop which can be thread

diameter say about 40 mm.

Diameter rod can be threaded easily.

We got it threaded at that place

and brought it here for making a self-straining frame

which would have not been possible,

if had not been T. P. Ganeshan there

and HRS available for us now.

These are all certain advantages with recruiting faculty who are

already in service somewhere.

Professor Ganeshan, Dr. Ganeshan moved

from HRS, therefore, we had the facilities of HRS also available

not with great difficulty, but easily we could get that now.

For things moved positively

in way in Structural Engineering Department with that laboratory

came into existence in 1973 March I suppose.

May I just interfere? I remember, some of the colleagues

subsequently when I joined the department,

I remember some of the colleagues

of my age had physically worked in

the laboratory setting up and it is just you know.

There That I was telling you.

Professor Aravindan. There are three associate lectures.

Aravindan, B. V. Subramanyam And Achyutha.

Achyutha - they were all - they worked up to midnight,

not even early morning hours for pouring concrete,

checking the concrete because the thickness of the floor,

the accuracy with which the holes

where the rods have to be threaded in

and it is - it should carry a 10 tons force.

Therefore, the accuracy was very important

and it was not given to the mechanics of the floor.

It was given to the faculty members

and therefore, faculty members were

working along with the mechanics.

Yeah, remember. I was given time morning 4 to 8,

I ask Varghese why you are using

I know you get up very early in the morning.

So, you come at 3 o’clock and be here.

So, faculty members physically present Present

ensured that the labs came you know.

That’s so, its a heavy duty floor.

So, today it's not - it's not - imaginable because we have sufficient

infrastructure outside to make sure

construction goes on, faculty members

give the specification. They are not involved,

but things were different at that time. yeah

They are physically involved.

See then only it will come up, no doubt about it.

You mentioned that the department was

initially education based. Yes.

Undergraduate education-based. Yes.

Obviously, today the institute is very different.

In fact, we have a larger number of

you know, postgraduate students

in the institute than the undergraduate students.

So, the flavor of the institute has changed.

Can you just, you know, kind of see how

or mention how you saw the changes

from a Undergraduate Teaching Laboratory

to the Postgraduate Research Institution

over these years in your experience? Because basically it's a -

we start only teaching first

Anything - First of all, I remember when I graduated,

I did not even consider doing

postgraduate study here. Yeah.

I went abroad and that was because

that was just not a research culture in 1968 at that time.

And, as you are mentioning

there were not very many faculty members also

with the PhD and over the years

things have changed. Yes.

So, I just want you to carry on. But

the moment we joined the institute

first, actually Professor Sengupto

had asked, in one of the many of the interviews asked me.

What were you doing other than teaching, first question.

I said, I am teaching, this course is going on

Other than teaching what are you doing?

We have to keep our mouth shut

because there is - no facility was there here.

Even we were not registered for PhD at that time.

Then I told Professor Varghese, somewhere

next time I go and tell my registered for PhD

So, with the great difficulty we registered for PhD.

Now, we can say we registered, I registered long back

because wherever 10 years we can say.

After that only I got my degree.

So, that was - starting always trouble will be there.

So, at least at that time there was - if nothing else -

there was at least an intent Yes.

that the faculty should get Should get into a -

Research Programme in greater size. Yes.

No no. So, the research was the background of the

institute director has given at instance. I will interfere here

When A. Ramachandran took over as the Director,

he said that mandate for anybody

for getting a promotion is a PhD qualification.

That’s what I was talking - And that was the starting point.

Every - every faculty was interested in registering for PhD.

Of course, we did really have good PhDs

in Science and this departments.

In Engineering Department, specifically in Civil Engineering,

not many PhDs there in 60s and 70s.

If I make a name in 60 when I come out of the college

I know only one doctorate in Civil Engineering

was Professor S. R. Srinivasan

of College of Engineering in Guindy. Correct.

And that was the only doctorate the name is known to me,

other than nothing. Professor Varghese did PhD

and all was around that time only.

What I mean to say is the total PhD

in engineering itself was small.

At IIT the motivation was by A. Ramachandran was that,

if you finish PhD you get your promotion immediately. Yes,

that’s not a joke. That was the first thing.

And therefore,

the faculty research - actually there were not students - the faculty

themselves were participanting or doing their research

in the laboratory till late in the night to see that their PhDs are there.

And the research guidance were - guides were very few,

therefore, number of faculty registered under one senior faculty

had to do a lot of work, research work to see that PhDs here.

So, from 68 to 73, the - that culture was a necessity

for the PhD staff members to do PhD in addition to teaching.

To mention there was a time

when I was doing my M.Tech, not PhD -

out of 40 hours of the workload

that we have, we used to have 36 hours of

either doing research or doing teaching

or doing by ourselves studies,

that was the timetable that we used to have.

And even research scholars they used to work

one I think it is, first research scholar. Do you remember

who is the first research scholar?

First research scholar is B. V. Subramanyam?

No, no. From IIT Madras.

Keshav- Fully from IIT Madras.

Fully from IIT Madras Civil Engineering Department

is one Keshavan Nair - Sukeshan Nair.

Sukeshan Nair. Sukeshan Nair.

Who - he did - nearly 93 specimens tested in Concrete Laboratory.

Unimaginable because the money involved in

pouring concrete and 93 specimens, he did.

And In which one, what is his area of research?

Concrete frame corners. Frame corners.

Frame corners. Frame corners.

And he - we had - actually I used to tell them,

he had 2 big volumes of his thesis. The theses were 2 volumes.

2 volumes to send abroad number for him.

Number 2, next was Professor Ganeshan, 1 volume,

next was myself - 70 pages.

Actually, the Professor - Sukeshan Nair's

thesis was evaluated by Structural Engineering Research Centre

Director G. S. Ramaswamy. G. S. Ramaswamy.

He was one of the examiners. He said

so much of work, so much of volume of work for one PhD?

he asked him in the viva voce

because, what is the requirement of doing PhD

over one PhD was not well defined.

For, everybody is afraid saying that

we should get it without any difficulty, do as much as possible.

And, Sukeshan Nair was - I think his patience

I should appreciate, because I was in charge

of the Concrete Laboratory and any minute

I will see that Sukeshan Nair will be demanding for manpower;

whereas, I should allot manpower for others also.

And, since is the first PhD students the research

came into picture after Ramachandran said

that it is a must for you to have a PhD for going to a promotion.

Therefore, if you see from the records the faculty doing PhD

and completing it was the maximum in 63 to 73, in 66 to 73.

And actually, subsequently,

Then PhD is joined. people were ... yeah.

People were taking only with the PhD they were -

So, there was a transition. No, there was a joke also

from class 3, class 4 post, class 3

if you want to come instead of PhD, IIT Madras it was there

So then actually I remember, what I am saying is Class 4 to class 3.

very many other institutions have

gone through a similar transition Quite possible.

in India. For example, when the RECs became NITs. Yeah.

They went through similar transition. Prior to that

there was not an insistence on research in this institution.

So, very many faculty did not and then when it became NITs,

people were started asking what is your research output

and the faculty had difficult time you know to be able to show.

So, all these national institutions

have gone through this type of phase-

the - what are the differences in the administrative

structure of the institute from the time it was established,

as you went through the department

to it in, can you kind of touch upon that?

Before that - You were actually also a

Dean Administration. Yeah

Dean Administration. So, probably - you should I don't have -

you should say What I would say is

I would put it in a different way, that is, the structure of the institute

was academically oriented, research oriented,

with administrative staff with minimum till around 68, around that.

Then afterwards this administrative building came up now.

Then we had one floor reserved for account section

plus trash, one floor for administration,

one floor for the Director’s office at the top

most floor along with senates room and all,

one floor for engineering unit

and one floor for counselling to say. Academic.

Academic. These are all this thing.

Then since the research degrees came, were to be awarded,

there's a research wing, there is a - Course wing.

Course wing. Then we had two wings;

one course wing and research wing.

Earlier, there was only one administration

which took care of administration and academic activities.

One superintendent will be there for academic,

one superintendent will be there from administration

then they were made Assistant Registrar.

That was the time when it was in 64, 65 and all.

Then afterwards academic separately done

and because the examination pattern

etcetera etcetera were also changed,

question papers were set internally

and that has to be monitored.

And, we had equally - equal - I mean, weekly examinations

that has to be monitored, then the periodical system.

All those things were slowly developed

from 63 up to say, let's say, 70s no no.

That brought in very high academic responsibilities

load on the institute. Therefore, academic section grew.

Simultaneously, the workshop

and other areas we had the class 3, class 4

staff numbers increasing because

the Research Departments wanted workshop for itself.

Every department wanted an workshop.

Therefore, there are mechanics, instrument mechanics therefore.

The administration of all those things

the so-called class 3, class 4 sector

was in the high and it was around 500

and odd at that time, about 70, sometimes 70-75 like that.

When it came to - when it is around 90,

not 90 - it was in 78, 79 when Professor Indiresan joined,

he said there will be Deans

who will take into the- take the responsibilities;

for one is Dean, Academic Affairs,

in one Dean, Academic Research Affairs,

another Dean one Industrial Consultancy,

one Dean for Students and then one Dean for- Administration.

Dean Administration. Dean Administration,

These are - that's not Dean Administration

This was a Dean Administrators, not called Dean Administration,

it was - yes it was Dean Administration. Earlier to it, it was called

Professor in Charge of Faculty In charge of -

and that was considered Dean Administration

because for a few- As far I remember,

Indiresan is the one who introduced the

Deans at that time. Dean system at the institute

yeah And for each dean

there will be one unit

where will be representation from each departments -

student member, board of students, board of academic courses,

board of academic research, like that.

For, each department has to spend

send one faculty for Board of Research,

one faculty for Dean of Academic, Board of Academic Courses,

one faculty for Dean of Students,

one faculty for Dean of Industrial Consultancy.

For, each department represented

in those deans and then deans

who will look into the overall development

of that particular area

and that was how the development

started in administration. Would you say; would you say, that this is

if you say, that he started as an institution

which was a top-driven to an institution

which became little more democratic

in terms of its representation, administration,

I think would you say that this is the transition?

Where, for example, I remember when I was a student

Heads of the Department was always there,

he has a permanent position and he was pretty powerful

and by the time I came back as a faculty,

Head of the Department post was no more permanent.

It was a - Rotate.

- 3 year duration. i Rotate so.

And, also this type of representation

of faculty input into the administrative -

That came - as well as the -

That came in - it started in 73, 74

with professors-in-charge. Right.

It they were not Deans, the professors in charge of various wings now,

we had a separate curriculum development cell Right.

for various department that was not amongst the deans

and there was - You were also in charge.

No, no, no. Curriculum development cell

Curriculum development cell was not there.

By the time I came joined the institute,

the dean's positions had come, you know.

So No, no there was one professor -

curriculum development cell was there I remember.

Then there was cell for what is that - you are doing this

editing and all those things is for - Matthews was there, what is that?

Photography, something connected to that,

I don’t get the name for that.

Professor Swamy do you know that, there is a department - one -

No sir. One, one establishment was there.

It is around 73 the industrial consultancy

after the 68, 73 period when research was given the weightage.

In 73 it was said that

you should also participate in the industrial consultancy;

so, that your input must be available for the industry,

for industrial consultancy was started at that time only,

and the deans came into picture only in 78, 79.

There was also industrial consultancy. From 73 to 79,

the mode of operation in the institute was:

percentage of your work will be in academic teaching

and research, percentage of work is

development of research activities,

percentage of time is allotted for

10 minutes consultancy - that was the allotment of time.

Each department has its own method of

allotting the time for the faculty

depending on their interest and ability,

wherever they can put more efforts,

but the output for the department shall be maximum.

And there was a student evaluation

for the students - that was for the teaching

staff. That was introduced late 80s.

No no that is in 70s. late late 70s,

Late 70s. Late 79 or 80.

Indiresan period, Indiresan period. Indiresan period.

Therefore, therefore, what happened is, this demarcation of

various areas was available only after 75, 78 -around 78

which means if you say a democratic way of running the

institute - When I say democratic, I meant

Atmosphere. you know input came

from the users of the service. Yes.

You know earlier the input was not there from users of the service,

earlier, somebody at the top, you know, knew what was - and then that was

Oh, that was in 70, when it came to afterwards

when I was also having certain other responsibility later

there was a necessity of- Have a break professors.

Sir, have a break. I think we are sitting more than -

Yeah yeah can we just - he wants to - just wants to have a break for some time

Yeah, I will complete this Ok.

There was a necessity of difference,

see the institute has grown big, the class 3, class 4 staff

were large numbers and they need lot of money.

They needed lot of money, therefore,

they went on borrowing from outside

and borrowing at an interest rate of 25 percent, 30 percent.

The staff member; you mean the class 3, class 4 staff members.

Staff members. Right.

Then, I think it was Professor Kuriakose

of the Chemistry Department,

who said that this should not be allowed.

Because the person who collects the money

right on the first of this month,

he will be right in the beginning of

administration block at the - at the - start of administration block. The loan sharks.

And - and -sharks; therefore, we started a thrift society

to whatever it is worth it. Thrift society.

I remember, I remember.

Therefore I, I was in charge of thrift society also. You were you were in charge of thrift society.

And when the times when the deans were appointed,

there was also Professor in charge of Engineering Unit.

Because, originally Engineering Unit was headed by

one superintending engineer, afterwards

superintending engineer cannot be, I mean,

deputed from the central government.

They had to have their own engineers,

therefore, we had one professor

in charge of Engineering Unit with executive engineer down below.

For, there were areas which are headed by separate people like -

There were different centres were there.

Different centres were also there.

Photographic Centre was there,

there was a Curriculum Development Centre was there.

I don’t know 2 or 3 centres are also there.

That is the way in which administration developed.

Centre for Continuing Education.

Continuing Education. Continuing Education.

We have been talking about academic activities

associated with the institute, but you all have lived

in this campus for 30 plus years. Yes.

And, you had other hobbies other than

the academic activity, and also campus life.

Can we touch upon that?

You know for example, you have stayed in the

campus for longer time also. Yes.

Can you touch upon

what you think is the value - for example,

most of the faculty I know

consider as a perk in working in IIT Madras

is the living on campus. You know that thing -

living on campus is a perk which nothing else can bring to us.

So, what’s your - what’s your - take on that?

My thing is, the, my life in campus for 32 years,

it's very very wonderful, no doubt about it.

In that, after 1970 I had come back from Germany,

I had contact with Professor Kumaraswamy

who was in the Madras - Yeah, I was going to come to that

you know Kumaraswamy as a faculty has done

lot of Metallurgy Department.

spirituality Yeah, spirituality

right. That's what.

So, that life was evening, institute life,

but even I was, that was really wonderful,

where nobody can get it anywhere

even in Madras. I remember number of

you learned Veda from him. Yes correct.

Not only that not only that one,

now I am present as IIT only now,

I don’t - nobody knows me as Radhakrishnan

in my - in my family or other community,

IIT is coming they will say as personal fact I am like that.

But, he made us expert in all - many questions

you ask. either in this one also, he will answer

unfortunately he is no more, I know you know that.

Professor Karaswamy he was a faculty in Metallurgy

Department. In Metallurgy Department he became Assistant Professor,

he took his MSc here also

and then he didn’t complete his PhD,

he didn’t want it perhaps.

But, outside the office hours after 4,

he was very helpful in framing our

general questions, many things. About life.

About life, many things no doubt it,

we had regular classes

in nobody many people didn’t come

of course, you can say there are 600 families in IIT

how people made use of - that is different,

that is purely personal.

But, what whole people use

they made very excellent it was.

Actually there was one Raman;

I don’t know whether you know him

in Mechanical Department - professor. I know.

He was the man who I remember

who didn’t go to any teaching profession

or research profession after his retirement,

he followed only this one.

He gives lectures in Tamil in Madurai

and I was in touch with him

that was brought by him only,

that type of life also was very useful

no doubt about it.

You were also part of that. The life

in IIT Chennai, I mean campus

has been wonderful. See, everything

everything is available inside the campus.

The shopping centre, though small,

took care of the immediate necessities

in the campus and

if at all we can go to Adyar and do it now.

Therefore, our, the faculties' members life

was enjoyable. As far as the ladies club

ladies are concerned there are ladies club.

They were also mixing up with other ladies

and they are having a really good time

and a level at which they are able to move around

and talk around and all. They brought them

to a higher level of culture itself.

And not looking at local politics

and all those things, they are able to discuss

things better - as a free citizens of the country

to that level the entire campus has been - So, did the children.

So, did the children. So, also the children.

Children had education in the K. V. School, Kendriya Vidyalaya here

and which is a cosmopolitan group of people there,

other school Vana Vani School

which is an excellent campus life -

that we have had all these things

added to it. Made it difficult to go out of the

campus after. Very very difficult that’s why

you see even people who are retired

they would like to stay as much as

possible inside the campus.

And those who got into a position called emeritus,

they would like somehow get into the place

and - that was the attraction of the campus

and still it is there.

And we, as Professor Radhakrishnan said,

we had additional advantage of

a leading us into the spiritual

life of doing it and understanding that.

See there are so many things

which are being done in the society as a ritual,

but what Kumaraswamy made us understand is

is it's not a ritual, please understand what you are doing.

Please question yourself whether things are right or wrong,

if you find it wrong unless you are feeling it right

need not have to do it, please look into that.

To that extent he has brought us to that level.

Along with it, the ritualistic part also,

citing Vedas and attending functions

for the festival research, that has been excellent.

Even today, the people in the temple

will definitely feel that the

culture in the temple has been

brought up to this level.

In those days when Kumaraswamy was the

Head of the- faculty here, he was also Head of the

I mean President of the temple samajam

for some time and the temple's

growth and its activities today

is comparable to any one of the

bigger temples in the society

and they have been doing well.

I think nothing to criticise or nothing to

comment about the campus life

and the negative side,

if at all you should say yes

here is the campus which has to be humiliated

anywhere else that is how we should say.

In fact I remember, most of the faculty member

coming from other IITs also appreciated

the greenness of this campus.

Yes. This is one of the thing that’s outstanding

about the campus - the campus has

maintained its greenness over these years

in spite of the growth, and it has been,

in fact, I was told when I became a student here

Professor Sengupto decided that the

roads will go where it kills the least amount of trees.

You know, in those days people

would not even know about ecology or environment.

But, he had the vision to say that the

campus will be built such that

it will have the greatest least amount of

disturbance to the existing flora and fauna that’s one.

You know we have some problem of the temple also -

it's not that easy -

when Professor Dr. Ramachandra was Director,

one day there was - he called me

He said Director wants you, Director wants you.

I said I won’t meet Director, I don’t know

I am not in the - I told him frankly -

I am not in the inner circle of the Director,

why does he want me, I don’t know, he wants you to. Talk louder, sir.

So, next day - there was no telephone those days,

house whose connection as much there

somebody came and said Director wants.

So, next day I said I will come 10 o'clock,

he wants to meet you.

Then I said the question was nothing is there,

who built this temple?

There is a question in the Parliament,

I want the answer in 3 days Radhakrishnan,

he said you are the Secretary of the Temple Samajam.

So, I want to answer the question

the following 4 questions that was

approved in the parliament also

because, there was no other thing else.

So, it came up on this one

and it was constructed by

actually the architect was only that Y. S. Ramaswamy, the

The then superintendent engineer. then superintendent engineer.

But the temple, there was a

there was a village temple that exist. Yes, yes there was a temple,

There is a temple. Just lingam was there. a lingam was there. There is - only a lingam was there.

So, what he used to do is I tell you

I was there from 61 before I was there.

What he was doing is the people who

finished all the contractor workload

the balance material I used to put in the temple,

just to put it - like that it was constructed.

No, he didn’t collect anything money

from anywhere outside the

those balance things don’t throw it outside,

put it inside and go away.

It was constructed like that

and went developed all these big

things Shankaracharya Swami came and blessed this one, that's all.

It came up - now, it has got a very good name

outside, remember I want to tell you because,

I am also; even yesterday I was here the temple,

I did some puja yesterday morning. The question came because of

so-called secularism in the parliament.

And afterwards it was it was Part of it. So, I answered the question.

it was also answer to that effect saying that Yes.

secularism does not mean no religion between that is the thing.

If - if somebody has asked for certain other facilities

who could not have been denied.

There was an Ayyappa Samajam

inside the temple itself. It was there.

Therefore, it's there, therefore,

there has not been any differentiation in the temple

that was the answer given

and it was accepted by parliament.

You know I have been here as a student

and then I had also joined back as the faculty

and I was used to be called as a 'baccha'

of the department because,

I was the youngest faculty at that time.

And, I have seen both the student side

and the faculty side of the campus

and I think one of the thing that

kind of makes a difference in this institute is that

student faculty relationship, you know,

it's never been an adversarial relationship,

it has always been a friendly relationship.

Faculty look at the students as something that

they are trying to facilitate their learning

and the students see the faculty as people.

There may be exceptions to this,

but as a general rule, there has been a very

congenial relationship between faculty. Definitely

students in this campus no doubt about it

and that is something I think

that needs to be spoken about you know.

And, it's a - it’s one of the reason why

the education takes place in the way

in the environment that it is taking place.

The other thing is - I remember

as soon as they came back to join faculty,

Indiresan was particularly interested

in the student faculty interaction.

And, part of the type of interaction is also

in Civil Engineering Department, the Civil Engineering Association;

Can you - the Civil Engineering Association

been very active you know in the department

and in - in fact, every year students

the students and faculty used to choose a topic

and debate that topic in the Civil Engineering Association.

Can you just reminiscence any of those things

that you have been involved in,

can you remember that you remember that?

But I was the man who is inaugurated

the Civil Engineering Association,

Professor Varghese asked me already

you had experience in Guindy Engineering College

why don’t you inaugurate? Alright we started,

but afterwards as you said

every year we used to have some meeting,

get together all those thing

as it was very good you can say. No in fact,

I remember one debate was

whether students who are

leaving the country to study abroad or staying

are they - are they - forsaking the country.

You know this is a student on faculty,

students spoke for and against,

faculties spoke for, against;

we had a nice discussion.

I think these are the type of -

We had student interactions with faculty very well,

because not only in Civil Engineering Association,

so many activities we had. Yes.

Hostel day celebration - there will be regular visits

for the hostels from the faculty members

meeting there, lot of discussions.

Non-academic discussions also will take place,

students will say what shall we do after doing it,

they will take suggestions from the faculty,

an open ended suggestion.

It does not mean that they've got to do it and all,

such a atmosphere as there and unless

we see something negative we will not be able to say

this is the beauty of this now

and we have been looking at always this positive side.

You have gone outside and have come.

Therefore, if you say that this is a

this has been positive here,

then I think we should accept. In fact, I remember the

other way also

the, there used to be a time where we

used to have a students come and visit our family

and spend some time together used to have together Right. That's what I said.

and I remember even today some of the students will come

and say you used to have us for Diwali.

You know those are the type of you know

interaction that we had

and that’s - that’s - one of the nice feature. That is

one of the things that even those days

when the institute was planned,

hostel wardens were located the hostel zone itself.

There were only 6, 7 hostels at that time

therefore, there were 6 warden. Certainly.

Afterwards it has grown big and therefore,

the wardens are somewhere here.

Otherwise the interaction with them was

students going to the warden and warden going to the students

yeah every time, it's very comfortable.

For example, Holi is one of the festival which is

very permanently you know yes

and it's one of the nice programme where student faculty interacting.

So, there are nice facilities for it.

As such we have seen only

positive side of it and therefore,

we are not able to appreciate so much

as a person who has seen a negative side

and then able to see this.

Both of you held some administrative posts,

I think you were Head of the Department

for some time, Head of the Laboratory for some time.

Both, both and - and then you were also Dean for some time.

Can you just share some anecdotes,

just an incident which kind of brings out

the intricacies of the position,

that you had, just one incident if it comes to your mind.

Otherwise, you can specifically talk about -

See, one of the thing that when I joined

the institute is, I found that

the amount of time faculty members spend

in other than academics,

in administrative work, in the institutes, I always felt was high.

You know it was higher than most institution

that I have been used to.

And in fact, I remember that when I was a faculty in the US,

I probably would have never met the President of the Institute

and the Dean, I would probably middle of engineering

I would probably meet once in 3 months

when we have a faculty meeting

and Head of the Department probably once a month.

But, I found that things were very different here,

we spent lot more time in the administrative set up, you know.

So, the, each of you in your position as administrators

how do you, do you feel that that was

so or what was it necessary

or could there be a change in terms of the

amount of administrative load on the institute?

Two things I would like to mention.

One is about administrative load

which you asked for I will come later.

As a Dean Administration we were - I was in charge of

arranging for the faculty recruitment and the selection process

and who should be called for interview and all.

We developed norms because, there should be uniformity

amongst the various departments.

In that process itself we found it difficult,

department to department there were difference.

Then for each department we developed around,

but the basic concept was that

the activities are to be taken as teaching

along with student evaluation,

research along with paper output,

publication output, and consultancy

along with turnover and also money

the money institute got. Funded Research.

Then, Funded Research,

then the projects that we got from Central Government,

these are all the areas in which -

Each department can say that

we will allot this various areas for the faculty,

but the faculties were also allowed to make their own decision.

The spectrum is open,

how much of time that you will allot for this

activity, this activity, this activity, this activity;

you can decide at the beginning of the year.

And, at the end of the year

or when you come for your evaluation,

what is your original decision

and how I would come up to that,

that was the item which we are referring to

for calling them for interview.

Because, the one person may be very good

at teaching, he must have got good records..

One person may be very good at consultancy,

some person may be very good at,

we need every area to be

same. But nevertheless, I think it's true

that -- the process of

actually there is no promotion,

it's everything you know every faculty come for. Everything is selection.

Selection, there is a process of selection

teaching and research take predominance

in the - yeah. That’s true

what we said is the allotment was

30, 30, 30 that is teaching and research put together is 60.

That is the minimum; you can have more,

you cannot have less than that.

Then consultancy, 20, and sponsored research 20,

this that you can change.

You can make all the 40 as sponsored

research and all the 40 as consultancy,

but the teaching and research has to

make 60 percent - that you have got to accommodate,

you cannot make teaching 20

and then remaining other things that was not allowed.

This was also notified to the departments

and Head of the Department was requested

to tell in the - Head of the - meetings of the faculty members

that they should present it.

When we evaluated the persons for calling

for interview because, you must have short listing.

The short listing by that time when I became a Dean

was little difficult in the sense

that there were already court cases in the institute

saying that you have not listed certain person for selection,

short listing should not be done by the administration,

it should be done by the Selection Committee itself.

And that was taken note of

by Professor Indiresan's time itself indirectly

in which he said 1 member of the Selection Committee

will be in the seminar which is being presented.

That was - that was - taken into consideration when I was a Dean

and, saying that there is short listing process

is also taken, that also was not inadequate.

It was not adequate because one case

came up afterwards, that at the time

when the seminar was conducted,

short listing has been already done.

So, what we had to do at that point of time is

shortlist it, send it to the Chairman Board of Governors,

get his initials first and afterwards

when the Selection Committee meets,

it is again told to all the members

this is the short listing norm, is there any other person

who is having a difference of opinion?

Then we give the entire set of applications

and look into it, that was done;

that was the administration procedure

standardized at that point of time.

So, that shortlisting there are no case arriving at it.

So, then. I am - I am - that’s kind of getting into the details.

I am just thinking in terms of the, you know, the

one of the, for example, you were saying dean administration's

responsibility was faculty selection.

I remember, Professor Indiresan, when he was there

when we are recruiting faculty

don’t think we are recruiting an Assistant Professor,

we are recruiting somebody

who is going to become a professor.

So, you look at him even at the time of recruitment

whether this is called a capability to become a professor

you know this is one No no that was the interview committee's

you are right. responsibility to say

whether this material is Is.

Worth for. Worth in this institute

to take any faculty position at any point of time

in future to the head of the departments Right, right, right.

and that is, it is not only connected

with his academic research

his overall development as a personality

we has to be looked into. That was the- But

I think more important was

whether he can become a professor,

you know because, not everybody

was expected to become a HOD.

No, no, not professor is very important person. So.

Dean, I mean Professor Indiresan used to say,

I am not important as the Director of the Institute,

the President of MIT is not very important,

but the faculty members who make

the department known outside is very important.

Therefore, do not look at the Director as the person,

you look at somebody else and say that this is the person

who would I like, he will be. In fact, I think

that's one of the thing that we find in India.

For example, just you were mentioning

the Director of - President of MIT may not be known,

but if Nobel Laureates are there, MIT MIT.

will be known outside the corner

and we have still not developed that kind of a culture No

as these institutions. that I will tell you,

That is correct. We are taken from the

we have we have come from the British culture.

Therefore, it is not so easy

to...because it will not be unparliamentary

if I say, but still I would like to be very guarded

in my statement and should not be misquoted.

The ethics in the society is the one

which makes all these things.

Because, if a person is true to himselves

and he would like to look at problems

from other's shoes, if they are able to do that

then he will be able to come a long way off, that is wanting.

And therefore, we need to have

to have some kind of a structured system.

Sir, that is true sir,

but on the other hand if there is often a statement

what should I do to become a professor?

It's a question that’s being

asked by all faculty members. Right.

And, I think answer has been, time

and again, that it cannot be in terms of numbers,

you have to show your ability to occupy

position of a professor in this institute by Why.

your performance, teaching research

at a level which is internationally recognized.

Correct. I would like to put that,

I had a question or I had a petition from one of the faculty

who was - who were looking for a professor's position,

he has appeared 4 or 5 times.

He sent a petition to the Director

which was forwarded to me, he said

what wrong have I committed,

I have done all these things.

You have asked that

you have how many papers etcetera etcetera.

Last year I did this much

and now this year I have made this much,

every year I show progress

and what is the effect of these things?

In the next interview, I have not been selected.

And, he also quotes somebody else

all these records and all those things,

it's very very difficult to satisfy requirements. From end actually

it is the Selection Committee,

finally, it is the Selection Committee. Selection Committee.

Process I say for, but there must be a faith in that. Yeah.

There must be a faith in that

and people should say the people sitting there

are doing their best in their positions.

And, similarly when a person is not being selected,

he should feel, yes something is wrong we should set it right.

And, there should not be a feeling of saying that

I have been dishonoured, something like that, this is the one thing

which is the plague in - which is the system

development, we cannot do it any way

further, it is very difficult. Yeah.

I don’t know if you have any other suggestion. No, no sir.

I say, with all these

questions, it will evolve. Evolution.

I was just going to ask

you have been Head of the Department. Often,

it is thought that Head of the Department

post is not very important or visible.

But, I have found that

time and again Head of the Department

make a lot of difference to the department,

can you, can you just corroborate

and then you know see what your No, I was only a Head of the Department.

opinion on that is. Quite short

very short my Head of the Department was

and so, I have not I can say

I have not done anything very big at that time.

Because, when Professor Krishnamurthy was away abroad,

I was made Interim Head of the Department.

So, all them want to came about

it to get about 3 months I was the Department officially.

You are Head of the Laboratory for some time.

I was Head of the Laboratory for years. Of course, so always

yeah, yeah, no problem. Can you say; can you say

do - do these heads you know Heads of the Department.

Heads of the Laboratory. Yes.

Do they make a difference to the department laboratory?

I don’t think there is any difference it makes.

I think it makes, sir.

Sir, it makes a difference.

I in my opinion. Now, what I am saying is.

For example, I think dynamic Head of the Laboratory

could make the laboratory function

differently from what it is because Function functioning.

see, one of the thing that IIT system has

is the ability to make decisions for yourself.

Correct. You know, it is not somebody

from outside who imposes their will.

For example, faculty of the department decide

individual faculty of the department decide

what kind of research they want to do

and the department as a whole decides

what is that they want to progress in.

So, there is a considerable amount of autonomy at each level.

So, given that Head of the Department I think

or Head of the Laboratory can make a difference

and I have seen that to be so, in time and again. So.

In my opinion, participation

in the Head of the Department in every activity

in the department which will be a strain

on his system because he has to attend

so many 3 or 4 section, is very important.

He should show interest in every department

with the best to the possible way

that he can, he should show.

Any research activity he should spend time

to understand that, it is not in my area

therefore, let somebody talk of it, it's not that.

It is the necessity of the Head of the Department

to have an overall view of all the sections.

So, in effect what you are saying is

Head of the Department can play a very

facilitating role. Can, can play

And, but then you know all play daily and all.

set and then individual faculty member drive their research,

but Head of the Departments

Yes, known to be. Head of the Laboratories can play a facilitating role.

But, sometime suppose we say the

Head of the Department is not able to

come into the field what he was doing. What to do?

For example, my case I was doing completely in dynamics.

So, the Head of the Department

was not able to do anything in Dynamics.

So, he has to get the help of from other departments,

that he can do it only by his influence.

No, no actually sir what I am saying is

when you are Head of the Department

you are really not evaluating the specific technical contribution,

but you are evaluating the person’s ability to do research,

that is what you are doing you know. Yes yes yes.

So, as it stands from, after all we sit in a seminar

when you know when faculty members are selected

and give you a feedback,

we may not be specialists in that area.

Nevertheless, we understand that

the - the thoroughness of the research

that the person is presenting

and things like that are the ones you judge.

In fact, one of the I think one of the strength of the IIT system is

at every level it places a responsibility

at that level to exercise the responsibility you know.

And, as a result I think we have been able to - as long as

we exercise the responsibility that we are assigned to,

the institute tends to be in good hands.

As long you know whereas, a person who is outside who is not

knowledgeable about what is happening,

so, but as you are saying that

such responsibility should be exercised

with fairness and with you know

with the interests of the department

or the institute in mind.

I think this system has progressed well

simply because the institute has had that type of facility.

The other thing is the culture of the students over the years

in both in undergraduate level and postgraduate level,

do you see any difference? Yes.

What would be the changes that you think are positive?

What are the changes you think are negative?

Maybe, I come to you first, sir,

we have stayed long here; what are your- No.

What are the changes that you say see in the

undergraduate students, talk about undergraduate student first.

Undergraduate students they are actually

it is difficult to manage because they are too young,

I can say when they come to the this thing

is about hardly 18 years or so.

But, they used to be young even They come; no.

when I - Right, right, wait wait.

Although where it's easy for us also to

to bring them to the line, this is not difficult.

Whereas, postgraduate students or PhD students is

little bit tough to manage.

So, I find the undergraduate students are

quite good in this one.

But do you see a change?

You know what I am saying compared to

when you joined the institute the undergraduate students

I find. and the change in today, undergraduate students.

I find, say, What is.

I find now I don’t know where

I have. No, at the time you retired.

At the time you. Retired.

It was - there was a - I find good change, it was there.

It was there What are the positive changes,

what are the negative changes?

Positive changes is you can say

first thing is they come, they came on their own to institute.

So, that thing always is there with them.

The students who join IIT Madras,

they came on their own,

no recommendation, nothing is there.

So, that thing always there.

That is all along That has existed all along.

That is there. It is there.

But the 50 percent of the students

who come after joining the institute, they come quite alright

and they do behave very well all those thing else,

I like them very much, no doubt about it.

I find improvement also after this

because, they become more matured

within 3 or 2 years, 4 years course.

At the end of 2 years they come alright

and then I find them very good in during the end.

I find them lot of - no doubt about it.

What is your opinion particularly with regard to postgraduate

students over these years?

The activities in which they are engaged

is beyond the activities of the department

and beyond the activities in which they should be engaged

You mean to say in you mean to say in terms of

programmes like Shaastra and Saarang?

All those I don’t want to name anything.

The activities that they are supposed to be engaged or

the activities they are engaged in is academic and other things.

Beyond this, their activities are there which is uncontrolled.

And, this is the one thing which is caused by the society

and no person whether it be the Director

or the Dean or ... would like to interfere in that.

So, that they say that they are left to themselves,

but they are left to themselves not as free citizens of India,

they are left to themselves as students of IIT.

Therefore, still the institute administrations

has the responsibility and since they are owning them

as students of that institute they should be guided properly.

Actually, sir, if you take a look at in

you know I remember the student governance

since one of the thing if you take a look at it,

IIT Madras also has got the year election

year after year on selecting

the student government and it goes on nicely;

you know you don’t see the type of- No, no, election

I am giving that as an example

and similarly, if you take a look at Shaastra and Saarang,

it builds their ability to organize quite extensively

and I, you know. for example,

in - in - in the other sections of this institute

where they want to get the student activity

they are trying to emulate Shaastra and Saarang

because they have set up a procedure

by which they organize events.

So, you know these - these are

successful programmes that they are able to run,

you, you want to say something as a concluding remark

if you have anything to say that

you think has not been discussed? Actually,

out of my 30, 32 plus 5; 37 years of service

teaching, so 32 years I have spent in IIT Madras,

out of 36, so, I had a wonderful

stay I can say and my stay was very fruitful

and my children are all well set up

no doubt about it because, we are IIT was

having all those advantages no doubt about it;

wherever we go somebody ask whether are you in IIT,

so many years. So, yes I was in IIT so many years.

And that’s why now people don’t believe

that I have spent I have left IIT 25 years before

1992 October I retired, 2017 October is coming.

So, 25 years since I left the.

But you still - IIT is fresh and new. Yes.

No doubt about it. Yesterday I was Say.

there in the I mean I would

See, my experience total experience

in the IIT campus is 41 years,

the longest that one could have it at that time.

Now, it is research the age of faculty is gone up,

now earlier it is 62, I had 40 years in this in this institute,

really enjoyable and very pleasant.

My daughter even now says the best life I have had

that she is now about 48,

she says IIT life has been enjoyable

And she tells everywhere wherever she goes,

she goes around the world, this is the best life in India,

if you want to have just go to IIT for some time.

The final word I would say given an opportunity

the Director permits us to come and join in IIT campus,

I will be free to join.

If the God allows you to become 20 years old again.

So, that you can go through this whole thing again. I - I

I will go through that. That is, that's next one,

but even to date if a facility is there

for if not a facility if the permission is there

that we should be we can have a

some kind of a small residence

in a single room apartment in this

you would prefer this IIT than But

anywhere else. but, we will lose the forest

if we do that we will lose the forest. No that’s what he say.

The actually the, you know, as I said

I have been a student here and the faculty here

and I have also seen how the

academic rigour has gone up over the years.

I remember that what was expected of me

in terms of publications and things like that.

To become an associate professor or professor

has considerably gone up today.

Today, the expectation of faculty

in terms of what they are suppose to be

publishing is much higher than-

Yes. So, the academic rigour expectations

from faculty has gone up over the years.

I think that's something that's

for a growing institution which wants to become an international

that's the direction we should move. Yeah, yeah, that's-

that’s only reasonable for the reason that. Yes.

Days when facilities were less, we were asked to do certain things.

Now facilities are available. Available.

Everything is got digital But, I

and think sir, on the other hand,

on the other hand, it is requirement and that everywhere

you should look a little higher than

what you are originally having a status,

then only you will be finding improvement

and it is. In fact I remember

Funded Research when I joined this institute

one of the thing because i was used to the American system,

I was looking for a Funded Research.

When I talk to my colleague they used to say

funding in Civil Engineering is - is unheard of,

you know, there is no funding in Civil Engineering.

But, today every faculty within an year of joining the department

has one Funded Research project with them...

So, that shows how things have changed

Changed, yes, definitely yes. over the years in terms

of the research culture in this institution you know.

And, the change in teaching in education,

I remember Professor P. S. Rao

one of the senior faculty

saying that when you were all students

and I - when I taught a subject,

I knew that you would go

and use the subject in your profession;

that is he was teaching Reinforced Concrete.

I- if I become a, you know, whether you become an engineer

or whether you will practice Reinforced Concrete.

But at the time of his retirement

when I go and teach the class today

I am not so sure because the students

half the students in this class will not be Civil Engineers.

And, most of the other departments also

say half the students in my class will not be

Mechanical Engineers, Electrical Engineers, Computer Scientists.

And, that in a way also reflects

how the country has changed over the

when in the long 40 years ago

even the opportunities in the area

of your engineering was low.

Today people have beyond engineering profession,

opportunities in other areas

and that also shows the way the country has- I would like to

add one point there.

I was with connected with industry after leaving this office

IIT for 15 years in the industry.

During that period the later part of that period,

I found an IIT graduate - he is not bothered about

Civil Engineering, Mechanical Engineering, he is the IIT graduate

can fit in any profession. Not necessarily Engineering,

Finance, Administration, any profession.

The training in this institute is good enough

for making a man near perfect

in any profession he takes it up with sincerity.

I have found that Correct.

as an industry and also in the professional world outside.

I think that’s also an indication of

broad base of education there. Yes.

Student to get exposure to. To that

Other than academics also. Other than

academic that is very important.

Ok sir. Ok.

Thank you very much for your time

and I think we had a good discussion.

Very good discussion.

Your experiences and thanks for sharing it with us.

So, we are really pleased

and it's a great pleasure for me to

tell you that our experience to talk about it To.

and being nostalgic about it.

We are elated to be with you today

and we thank you for giving you an opportunity. The best opportunity I had

I had both the things with my students.

Contribute
to the Centre
Monetary
Support
Digital
Material

< Back

Prof. V.M.K. Sastry in conversation with Prof. Ajit Kolar and Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam

Prof. Ajit Kumar Kolar: Greetings from IIT Madras Heritage Centre.

Today at the Centre we are in conversation

with Professor Vedantam Murali Krishna Sastry

known as Professor V. M. K. Sastry

who was here in IIT Madras

as a faculty member from 1970 to 1998.

I will give you a brief introduction, and then

we will have a conversation about the

history of IIT Madras as Professor

Sastry looks at it during his tenure in this institute.

Professor V. M. K. Sastry graduated from the first

IIT which is at Kharagpur,

then he did his Master's in Indian Institute of Science

Bangalore, then his Ph.D. from

University of Illinois at Chicago Circle Campus, Chicago

in the area of Heat Transfer

he worked with Professor James Hartnett:

highly reputed Heat Transfer researchers of those times.

He worked in IIT Kanpur for some time,

he joined IIT Madras in 1970

in the Department of Mechanical Engineering.

Particularly, he was associated with the Heat

Transfer and Thermal Power Laboratory.

He went on to become the Head of the Department

of Mechanical Engineering from 1986 to 1990.

Later, he was the Dean of Academic Research

and he was the member of Board of Governors

when he retired in 1998.

He also is the Founder Professor

of ETC that is a Educational Technology Centre

which is now a very big part of the IIT Madras outreach,

especially through the NPTEL Programme.

He was Chairman of the Vanavani Committee,

and also he was Warden of Cauvery Hostel.

So, Professor Sastry has tremendous...

A long and vast experience in the IIT system,

first as a student, undergraduate student in IIT Kharagpur,

and then ending up as the member of

the Board of Governors at IIT Madras.

So he has seen the IITM...IIT system grow

from its initial...almost the beginning of the 1950s

up to '98, but then even now, although he is

officially outside the IIT system for the last 20 years,

he has been a very keen observer,

external observer of the growth of the IIT system,

IIT Madras. So, it is our pleasure to have Professor Sastry today,

to get his perspective of the IIT Madras

and IIT system in general. Welcome, Professor Sastry.

Thank You. We are very happy that you are here...

Prof. V. M. K. Sastry: Thank you, Professor Kolar. Prof. Kolar: today.

I would like to start by

asking you what were the circumstances under which you

came to IIT Madras from United States,

especially you joined the

Heat Transfer and Thermal Power Lab,

the academic and research environment,

especially also with respect to Heat Transfer subject,

kindly say few words about it.

Prof. Sastry: First of all, after graduating from IISc Bangalore

that is my Master's,

I was quite...deeply influenced by Dr. Ramachandran,

because though I was doing my

Master's Degree in Foundry Engineering,

he was actually handling the subject of Heat Transfer to us.

So I did his project work under him

and then I worked in an industry for a year,

but then I wanted to shift it to teaching line.

So I thought teaching line if I want to

really contribute, I must have a Ph.D.

So I was in search of a guide for Ph.D.,

and in that process I went first of all to

IIT Kharagpur as a lecturer.

So I was not very successful in finding a Ph.D. guide.

So I shifted to IIT Kanpur.

So there, one Professor Richard Zimmerman from Ohio...

Ohio State University, he actually accepted me to work under him.

But because of some policy issues involving

both Indian side as well as American side,

you know unlike Germany,

the assistance from United States was basically a private

affair; not from the government,

it is what is called an IIT...the...the...the University Consortium

of about 9 universities joining together,

and because of that, there was policy differences,

and the American side objected

that until the entire B.Tech. programme is in place,

you cannot have even faculty members working part-time for Ph.D.

Prof. Kolar: This was in the early 1960s. Prof. Sastry: This was in 1962.

So after a year, the American Professor said,

"Sastry, if you want to really get a Ph.D.,

go abroad." That is how I ended up in the United States.

So after my Ph.D., I joined the faculty of the University of Illinois also,

and when I was there working, 1969,

I got a letter from Professor Ramachandran

who was already by that time, the Director of IIT Madras.

So he said, "Why don't you come and join the

Mechanical Engineering Department?" So I said "Yes, I can do,

but I am now working on a NASA project,

so one more year I need,

so can I have a joining time of one year?"

With his, you know, very broad minded outlook.

He said, "Why not?"

So that is how I...

Basically, in those days you know, the people who went abroad,

they were not willing to settle down there,

they just wanted to increa...improve their qualifications and then get back.

That means basically Bharat Mata calling back.

So that is how the situation was, and I returned.

So I...was supposed to come

and join this '70 academic session, July,

but then my professor and guide,

Dr. Hartnett, he said that

"Now you are going to India,

and we don't really see..."

He was actually the...the very prominent...

International Journal of Heat and Mass Transfer, that is

the international journal, he was the editor.

So he said, "We are not really receiving many

articles...research articles in the

area of Heat Transfer from India.

So, for you to really work in this area,

it may be a good idea, if you meet several of the

international experts in Heat Transfer."

So they said...that's why in

August of 1970, the...there was the Paris

Fourth International Heat Transfer Conference.

So he said, "I will introduce you to a lot of

people there, why don't you come and..."

Because our paper also was there.

So, present it and then go.

So I requested Dr. Ramachandran,

"Is it ok if I join instead of the

beginning of the academic year,

in the middle of the year if I join, is it ok?"

He jumped at the opportunity and he really,

you know that shows actually the vision of Dr. Ramachandran.

Prof. Kolar: And he himself was a Heat Transfer person, basically. Prof. Sastry: He was himself a Heat Transfer person.

So he said, “That's a very good idea,

you come and join, after attending those things.”

So I came here, and because it was in the middle of the

academic session, I had not much teaching work to do.

So, in fact, it was a tremendous experience

for me to interact with him because,

on the first day when I met him in his office,

he said, “Sastry, this lab used to be called a Steam Lab.”

So after I came here, I changed the name

to ‘Heat Transfer and Thermal Power.’

This is very important from the history of the Heat

Transfer research in the country and in IIT Madras,

it was called a ‘Steam Power Lab,’

Prof. Sastry: Steam Power Lab. Prof. Kolar: Under Professor Narjes

But Professor Ramachandran, because

he was a Heat Transfer person,

he said, “We should have a Heat Transfer specialization.”

So he changed the name,

Professor Narjes was the head

and then ’70, Professor Sastry came in.

Prof. Sastry: So, I… Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam: But when had the lab been set up, sir?

Mr. Sathasivam: How many years had it been running? Prof. Sastry: It was set up in the beginning itself.

In fact, there was one

Professor from University of Stuttgart, Professor [indistinct].

He was also a member of the

German Committee which established IIT.

So, he actually was working in…the…in…in

Stuttgart, it was basically a Steam Lab, you know.

Mr. Sathasivam: It was a replica of… Prof. Sastry: Replica of that one

Mr. Sathasivam: The Stuttgart lab. Yes.

So, I…I came and then Dr. Ramachandran said,

“Though I changed the name,

whatever facilities you want, we will try to provide.

Can you, at least after 4 or 5 years,

make this Heat Transfer Lab

a real good Heat Transfer Lab

which is really doing reasonably good work in…in the area.”

Sir, excuse me, was Heat Transfer

being taught as a subject in any IIT or

other institutions in the country at that time?

To my knowledge there was…Heat

Transfer was not being taught at all

in any institution. Maybe,

I may be wrong, maybe Professor Sukhatme in IIT Bombay,

might have started, but I doubt it because as

undergraduate curriculum, it was not part of that.

So in fact, that is the one of the reasons why

Dr. Ramachandran particularly said,

“First of all let us develop a

Master's degree programme in Heat Transfer.”

So, now, that you don't have any teaching load,

why don't you design a 2 year

programme…M.Tech. programme,

in the area…in the subject of Heat Transfer.”

So, I worked on it for a couple of months.

So I made a detailed programme,

the curriculum was completely finalized,

then Dr. Ramachandran looked at it,

he approved, and he said that…until that time,

the Master’s Degree programme in Mechanical Engineering,

was…was only involving I think two or three areas:

One is Advanced Thermal Power,

Machine Design and probably Manufacturing.

I am not very sure.

So he said, “Let us have a regular programme.”

And then when he was quite certain that

there should be a 2 year programme

Master’s degree programme in several areas,

he asked the Department of Mechanical Engineering staff

there are almost about 10 labs

in the Mechanical Engineering.

So he said, “Each lab, each special area,

you should have a similar programme.”

So that's why by 1971, Prof. Kolar: Yes.

You know all the labs of Mechanical Engineering Department,

each department for example,

the M.Tech. programme in Combustion

M.Tech. programme in Refrigeration and Air-Conditioning…like that

all these 10 programmes actually were developed

and that's how it started in 1971.

But more importantly, what

Dr. Ramachandran suggested is that Heat…

Heat Transfer is an engineering science,

it was neither engineering nor science.

That…it used to be taught in Mechanic…Chemical Engineering also

as a more of…as a practical thing rather than

providing theoretical basis for it.

So, Dr. Ramachandran suggested

that we should also see that institutions like

Guindy Engineering College and other

engineering colleges in the country,

they also adopt this particular thing.

So he…I called actually, I arranged a

summer programme for 4 weeks

for teachers in the particular Thermal area.

So, 50 institutions actually participated for this 4…

So for that, what we did was, we actually

had this 4-week summer programme for these teachers,

along with that, we also tried to help them

by developing a lab manual.

For example, ‘How many experiments you can

conduct in Heat Transfer Lab.’

And that was quite a success because,

for the next 4-5 years, because in most of these

colleges you know, they have to go through a…

long drawn out procedure

to have any syllabus changes occurring,

because there should be a university level and all that.

So that is the reason why it took some time,

but eventually, a large number of institutions in the country

started teaching Heat Transfer as a

subject in the undergraduate programme.

I remember this very well sir because I

joined in ‘71 with you

and I was part of that first M.Tech. course specialization.

So, the point here is that

the…Heat Transfer for teaching undergraduate students

and bringing that into the Master’s programme,

actually was done by IIT Madras,

with the encouragement of Professor Ramachandran, and

Professor Sastry was there and Professor M. V. Krishnamurthy Prof. Sastry: Yes.

Prof. Kolar: was in the Refrigeration Lab. Prof. Sastry: Refrigeration Lab.

That's how Heat Transfer took routes

probably Professor Sukhatme who was a

Prof. Kolar: student of Professor [indistinct]. Prof. Sastry: [Indistinct] of.

And then…he is a Heat Transfer man, he had…

also was…sir, how about Professor A. K. Mohanty,

did he participate in this…from IIT Kharagpur?

Prof. Sastry: At that time he did not, but Prof. Kolar: Okay

basically what Mohanty was doing was,

he was in the…of course, Mechanical Engineering Department

in IIT Kharagpur, but when we…to actually

go ahead with this…1971 when we had this,

Dr. Ramachandran…you know, he is a…

in fact, I greatly respect him because he had Prof. Kolar: Yeah.

tremendous vision of so many things. Prof. Kolar: Yes.

One thing is this ‘Introduction of Heat Transfer’ as a

basic core course in the undergraduate programme

all across the country that is number 1.

Number 2, he said, that…“How about research?”

And I am really quite

surprised that he called me and he said,

“Now we will take admission for Ph.D. students,

so, take some.” Then

Dr. Kolar was one of the first ones.

So there are 3 students.

In 1972, again there was a batch of students and I took

3 students already…under me

and I was thinking that. you know, it is

too much for me because,

he said…he comes and says, “Take two more.

Take two more.” He said, “That is because…”

You know, my problem was, I worked actually

for my Ph.D. programme in a Space Research, Space Heat Transfer.

In India we were very much on…on the ground. Mr. Sathasivam: Yeah.

Prof. Sastry: Nowhere near space. Mr. Sathasivam: That’s right.

So therefore, what happened was that,

I myself was not really experienced in

several areas of applications of the Theory of Heat Transfer.

So he said, “Take two more.”

His idea was, if I take five students

in five different aspects of Heat Transfer,

some initiation of research can take place.

That…later on I found out the wisdom in that

because I think we have tried to develop

a Heat Transfer Lab very nicely because of his guidance.

Mr. Sathasivam: Sir, did Professor Ramachandran also initiate

these outreach programmes that you mentioned,

the Teacher Training Programmes that you conducted in summer,

in other branches in other labs and so on?

Actually this summer programme that I conducted

was not initiated by him

it was the so called Ministry of…you know

HRD the…the other… Prof. Kolar: Ministry of Education.

Prof. Sastry: So called Quality Improvement Programme. Prof. Kolar: Quality.

Quality Improvement Programme. They wanted to

actually have this for the…because this is for the teachers,

for the quality improvement.

So that is how it actually started.

But then, his vision was,

how to make this particular subject

very important and prominent one in the country,

because it actually…Heat Transfer is the subject

that cuts across several disciplines.

Aerospace it is there, in Chemical Engineering it is there, in…

of course, Mechanical Engineering obviously.

so because of that he wanted…

but…that it should develop actually quite well

all across, and so, he wanted to…say,

“Why don't we have a…

because you have now international contacts,”

Prof. Kolar: Yeah. Prof. Sastry: “Why don't you invite these

people from abroad, and then

we will have an international conference?”

But then finally, we decided, first of all let us

find out what is the extent of research that is

being done in the country,

before we take this international step.

So we wanted to have the First

National Heat Transfer Conference Prof. Kolar: Yes.

in 1972. And he wanted us to organize this one and

Dr. Krishnamurthy and myself, we were the organizing secretaries. Prof. Kolar: Yes sir.

Prof. Sastry: And we start a Mr. Sathasivam: Dr. M. V. Krishnamurthy.

Prof. Kolar: M. V. Krishnamurthy Mr. Sathasivam: Right.

Prof. Kolar: So it was in…during the Bangladesh War.

Prof. Kolar: 1971 December 1st to 3rd in CLT. Mr. Sathasivam: Ah, yes.

And big names, Professor Hartnett

Prof. Kolar: Professor [indistinct]. Prof. Sastry: Spalding

Professor Spalding from U.K.,

Professor Kadambi from IIT Kanpur,

Prof. Kolar: [Indistinct] from Uni…Russia. Prof. Sastry: Russia.

For us…we had just then joined for research, it was a

big thing that…we had not heard of Heat Transfer as a topic.

I am dwelling a little bit on this because

we started Heat Transfer research,

not only teaching, but research. This conference brought together

all the research community.

Sir and I am very happy to tell you, it is running

very successfully, the next one is being held

in the December of…every 2 years it changes.

So, Professor Ramachandran's vision. Prof. Sastry: Vision.

And the hard work that you and others…Professor

M. V. Krishnamurthy and others put in, has…really [Inaudible]

In fact, 1972 when we had…’71 we had this conference,

and ’73, we had the second conference in IIT Kanpur. Prof. Kolar: Kanpur.

Kanpur. And then, Dr. Ramachandran said,

“Now look…it looks like

we have a reasonably good work that is being done

both in the research laboratories,

education institutions and as well as industry to some extent.

So, why don't we have a society?” Prof. Kolar: Yes.

So, he said that, “We will have a…

we will…we will form an Indian Heat Transfer Society.”

So he gave me the task of

memorandum of association… Prof. Kolar: Following the constitution for the…

Constitution, and all that.

So we worked on it, and then 1974 we

established the Indian Society for Heat and Mass Transfer. Prof. Kolar: Yes.

Prof. Sastry: Heat and Mass Transfer. Prof. Kolar: With our Heat Transfer Lab as the headquarters.

Prof. Sastry: As the headquarters. Prof. Kolar: Even…even today it is so, sir.

Yeah, actually, 1974 onwards, until 1991, I had the

responsibility of being the secretary.

So for 17 years…

because there is nobody else that is willing to take.

Prof. Kolar: Yeah. Mr. Sathasivam: You would have been the Founder Secretary.

Prof. Sastry: Founder Secretary that's right. Prof. Kolar: Yeah yeah.

So, how about that Regional Centre?

This also connected with Heat Transfer and Energy, actually. Prof. Sastry: Yes.

See by that time, Dr. Ramachandran left actually in

1973, to take over as

Secretary, Department of Science and Technology.

In fact, that's what

I…another thing that I…aspect of Dr. Ramachandran:

he is a an institution builder.

He went and established the DST:

Department of Science and Technology. Prof. Kolar: Yes.

And afterwards of course, he…from

there he shifted to United Nations, and he

established the United Nations Centre for Human Settlements.

Prof. Kolar: In…in Nairobi. Mr. Sathasivam: Yes, yes.

Prof. Sastry: In Nairobi. Mr. Sathasivam: Yes.

So, in that sense he is actually a creator of institutions,

because of his visionary outlook.

So, after he went to DST,

there was actually an International Centre for

Heat and Mass Transfer in Yugoslavia

that was established with the assistance of UNESCO.

So, several of my international colleagues in the area,

they were associated with that Centre,

they said, “Now that…” because these people

have attended the conferences in 1971, ‘73 and

‘75 in IIT Bombay, they saw

the kind of work that is being done.

So what they said is, “Why don't we have…

not only India, but in the entire Asian Region, we will do it.”

So the…UNESCO actually sent a delegation

to tour various countries, of which actually Dr. Ramachandran was

a part of…that delegation.

And then the Yugoslavian Centre's Secretary

General was another member,

and of course, my former advisor

in Chicago, he was also another member.

They toured these countries and then they said,

“Yeah, it is time for us to have actually a

Centre for Asian countries, Asia and Pacific countries.

Prof. Kolar: Yeah Pacific. Prof. Sastry: Again, Dr. Ramachandran had the responsibility,

and by that time he was already in the DST, very busy and all that.

So he asked me to create that Centre.

So, I again drafted the constitution, and also

had several representatives from

Bangladesh and Indonesia and other places.

So we formed the Executive Committee and the

Board of Directors from Japan, for example.

So we created that Centre,

and then Dr. Ramachandran said, “Why don't we

start actually publishing a journal, Prof. Kolar: Journal.

taking into consideration the articles from these things.”

So, I also became the first editor of the

journal, he is the editor, and of course, the Prof. Kolar: Yeah.

Scientific Secretary of that (clears throat) that Centre.

He said, “Once we start this one, we have to do it

immediately.” He is…he is quite

impatient about getting things done.

So, first journal, should come out by December of 1978.

So we started this Regional Centre

in 1977, [indistinct] approved.

So the first journal should come actually in ’79…‘78 December.

We got it, but in those days as you know very well,

the printing and all that is…the words should be arranged in the

Mr. Sathasivam: Manual typesetting. Prof. Kolar: Yeah yeah yeah.

Mr. Sathasivam: That’s right. Prof. Kolar: Oh

Prof. Kolar: The First Heat Transfer Conference, we were all research scholars,

every day used to go to the printing press for proofreading,

we looked at the equations and said, “What

are all these equations? We don't understand whatever.”

All the research scholars, we had a fantastic

experience of those times. Prof. Sastry: And the printing

press was actually in the old Shopping Centre. Prof. Kolar: Shopping Centre.

Mr. Sathasivam: Yes. Prof. Sastry: In our

Mr. Sathasivam: Yeah. Prof. Sastry: Campus

Prof. Kolar: So this is very nice to hear

from you directly the… Prof. C. S. Swamy: I have one…

Prof. Kolar: Yeah please go ahead, go ahead, yeah.

Prof. Swamy: Now you said that Professor Ramachandran

Prof. Swamy: was interested in starting Heat Transfer,

Prof. Swamy: [Inaudible] to do with his being

Chairman of the Research Council of Defence Laboratory

You know he was Chairman of the Research Council DMR.

In fact, again I want to ask you, ‘72 I think

the Director of [indistinct] Narayanan

came with the delegation, and they wanted the IIT to

sub…submit projects. Prof. Sastry: Yes.

In fact, most of the projects submitted [Inaudible]

Maybe, I had also submitted a project.

Now why I am telling this, there was something about

he was thinking of rocket cones,

and then it was getting…could not be used again, because oblation.

So he said that we can [Inaudible]

So I had proposed something.

So about a coating of ceramic,

and a ceramic metal and a metal.

I said, “The most important thing is, you have to make the [Inaudible]

and we shall have a plasma torch to do this.”

In fact, my project was submitted,

but was not funded, but I

came to know much later that the plasma

torch was purchased by the Council. Prof. Sastry: Okay.

Prof. Swamy: But what I am telling you is, did Ramachandran get

interested in Heat Transfer because of its application in…

Prof. Sastry: First of all, Dr. Ramachandran himself

was actually…he had his Ph.D. from Purdue University. Prof. Swamy: I know.

Prof. Sastry: So in the…in the subject of Heat Transfer. Prof. Kolar: Heat Transfer.

Prof. Sastry: That is number 1. And of course, he was,

you know, Head of the Department in IISc Bangalore,

but more importantly, he wanted,

in fact, now that you mentioned about the

Sponsored Research and Industrial

Collaboration. In 1972-73…

Again Dr. Ramachandran said, “Somehow you know, when we do

something, we should also interact with the industry.” Prof. Kolar: Industry.

Prof. Sastry: “Industry-Institute interaction must be there.”

There used to be what is called RDOEI. Prof. Kolar: Yes.

Research and Development Organisation for Electrical Industry

In the Ministry of Heavy Industry in Centre, at the Centre.

So, he…the…a request came from there,

saying that, “You know, our…our motors and all these

things are becoming actually very large in size,

electrically we can do all these things, but because of the

cooling problem we are not able to

reduce this size for the same capacity.

So, can you please do something.” Because

because they know that Dr. Ramachandran was…say

expert in heat transfer, and he was Director here.

So they contacted him. Then he asked me and

Dr. Krishnamurthy, V. Krishnamurthy to look into this.

So Dr. Krishnamurthy by that time he changed his interests into. Prof. Kolar: Refrigeration.

Prof. Sastry: Refrigeration and air conditioning. So, we went to Bhopal, and as usual

you know the…the they were all buying the

drawings and equipment and everything

from associate electrical industries

which was supplying the equipment to them, and

they were not really interested in collaborating,

but luckily because of Dr. Ramachandran's

personal connection, Dr. V. Krishnamurthy, at that time. Prof. Kolar: Oh yes.

Prof. Sastry: Yeah. Prof. Kolar: BHEL

Prof. Kolar: top man. Prof. Sastry: BHEL…this thing, top man.

He said, “Let them go…come and look at it.”

But even though the faculty, the staff there were not very

cooperative, there was one Mr. Walker,

a 75-year-old man coming from AEI,

he himself said it’s a good idea if the…

because we don't understand what is happening there,

so theory must be also

matching with the…our experimental work.

So, let them do this. And because of Dr. Krishnamurthy’s

help, they supplied to us

all the drawings and other things like that, then we started.

In fact, that RDOEI industry project in 1972,

that they gave us about one and half lakhs or so.

Prof. Kolar: That is large amount at that time.

Prof. Sastry: That was the probably the first major

sponsored research project that came to us.

To IIT. Prof. Swamy: I see.

Earlier, there might be…you know some…

as far as my knowledge goes, that is the first major…this thing.

That is because of the fact that

there were administrative difficulties later on,

regarding…you know, how to distribute the

money and all that kind of thing, and that is the reason why

they said, we have to make some

policy and there are certain rules.

That is the reason why I am assuming, that that is the first

sponsored research project that came from outside.

So, for 3 years that I was associated with

Dr. Ramachandran 1970 to ‘73,

he started with several different friends,

for example, he also started some interdisciplinary Prof. Kolar: Yes.

programmes, but because he was…

he is way ahead of his times,

they didn't really take off.

Prof. Kolar: It took 45 years for them to materialize.

Yeah, interdisciplinary the reason why he was saying

was, because of his intense interest…should be promoted.

Departments should not be…you know,

the walls should not be built around the departments.

There should be constant interaction and exchange of ideas

and collaborative work among the

departments. That's what his intention was.

But it started and he was actually…along with

me, you know Dr. Natarajan and T. K. Bose and Prof. Kolar: Yes.

Some others of…the people, he

actually invited them from abroad.

Prof. Kolar: Sir, Professor Natarajan also joined just a year or two after you?

Prof. Sastry: No, in fact, around the same time. Prof. Kolar: Same.

Prof. Kolar: And Professor Bose also. Prof. Sastry: Few months.

Mr. Sathasivam: Actually, who were your colleagues?

Mr. Sathasivam: So, you mentioned Professor Krishnamurthy

Mr. Sathasivam: and Professor Ramachandran himself. Prof. Sastry: Heat Transfer,

Mr. Sathasivam: Yes. Prof. Sastry: Professor…Heat Transfer actually

these are the people, and of course, in

Chemical Engineering, then Professor Gopichand,

Prof. Kolar: Professor T. Gopichand. Prof. Sastry: Gopichand was working,

Yeah, Professor Gopichand was working.

Prof. Kolar: Professor K. Subbaraj. Prof. Sastry: K. Subbaraju.

Prof. Kolar: Of Prof. Sastry: Subbaraju, Subbaraju was working

Prof. Kolar: Dr. Sathyanarayana’s father. Prof. Swamy: Yeah, yeah.

He was the Heat Transfer professor.

So…so there was basically a good group of

people working here, in various departments. Prof. Kolar: Yes.

But the question is that the interaction

he wanted to develop, and that is the reason why he was

trying his best and he did a very good job as far as I am concerned.

Prof. Kolar: Sir, now that we are in this topic of research,

Heat Transfer of course, now we have information.

When we were research scholars, we saw the…a

Solar Thermal Power Plant in BSB;

this was in the mid ‘70s.

Professor Ramachandran went to

start the department of non…no no, DST as Secretary.

I think he started the Department of Non-conventional Energy Sources. Prof. Sastry: Yeah, right.

Prof. Kolar: So, what was his role in initiating the solar energy research, here?

Prof. Sastry: He actually…as I said, Prof. Kolar: Yeah.

Prof. Sastry: even the DST when he was Secretary,

with regard to this Regional Centre for Asia and Pacific,

regarding that matter, I visited Delhi, and

I met him in his office. He was so much interested in solar energy. Prof. Kolar: Yes.

In fact, he said casually, “Sastry, do you think

that, like Atomic Energy Commission,

in this country, should we have a Solar Energy Commission?”

Mr. Sathasivam: Right. Prof. Kolar: These were in ’73

Mr. Sathasivam: Right. Prof. Kolar: ‘74.

Prof. Sastry: This was in 1974-75 time frame. Mr. Sathasivam: Yes.

He was thinking, then…I just casually of course,

because I had this freedom with him to… Prof. Kolar: Yes.

Prof. Sastry: have talk, I just…I said, “Unfortunately we should

not…we should first of all develop

a total overall plan for the energy in the entire country.”

For example, energy comes from you know, solar and of course,

from fossil fuels and hydro

and all…what are our resources available in each

one of these areas, and what is our projected

growth rate and what is the amount of

our needs, so far as energy is concerned.

I said, “Already right now, we have…”, actually

at that time, Ministry of Power, Ministry of Water is different.

Prof. Kolar: Ministry of Coal. Prof. Sastry: Coal is different, coal is different.

So, each person actually is…atomic energy of

course, anyway is different.

So, each person actually is having…

and each area is having its own empire, so to speak.

So to say solar energy, wind energy

will become another…Wind Energy Commission.

So, can we avoid that?

He said, “No no, I was just intellectually I was discussing.”

So, what I am trying to say is, Prof. Kolar: He had.

Prof. Sastry: He had that. Prof. Kolar: Absolutely.

You know he was looking into the future, and in that

context only, we also had actually solar

Prof. Kolar: Yes 10 kilo watt thermal power plant. Prof. Sastry: 10 kilo watt station

actually developed here, probably that is the first one

Prof. Kolar: I think so, it is the first one. Prof. Sastry: First one.

Prof. Kolar: Solar energy research, again, to the best of

my knowledge, started in IIT Madras.

Mr. Sathasivam: The first in the country, sir? Prof. Kolar: Yes.

Prof. Sastry: Yeah, first in the country. Mr. Sathasivam: Right.

Prof. Kolar: Definitely in the IIT system and the educational institutions,

and there was no…he started the Non-Conventional Energy Centre

which now is MNES. Professor Ramachadran started. Prof. Sastry: Yeah, he started that one.

Mr. Sathasivam: Right. Prof. Sastry: Actually, earlier, there was some…

in the area…in the…in the department under the National

Physical Laboratories and physics area,

some work was supposedly…we have done in the solar.

Mostly there were actually solar cookers, solar

water heaters and that kind of thing.

But not in terms of producing energy. Prof. Kolar: Power

Prof. Sastry: Power. Prof. Kolar: Yeah, Professor Ramachandran was a man of vision,

he initiated so many programmes for the country.

There was slightly shift focus, because you also…

for the Founder Professor of the Educational Technology Cell.

Today, this is a very big thing again

and through that cell we have the NPTEL

Programme which is extremely popular in the country and

now it’s simply expanding, but you are the originator

of that, can you say a few words about it?

Yeah, actually what happened was that…this happened

actually in 1985 or ‘86 Prof. Kolar: Professor Srin…no…

Prof. Kolar: Professor Indiresan? Prof. Sastry: That was in ‘86 and ‘87

because I took over as Head of the Department in 1986. Prof. Kolar: Yeah.

So one day, in 1987 or something,

one…suddenly just before the financial year comes to an end,

in January or so, we received suddenly a

fax message…the Director received a fax message

saying that they have got additional funds. Prof. Swamy: As usual.

Prof. Kolar: What do you will do with this?

So, we are now giving actually 2 crores

to each of the 5 IITs…to develop an Educational Technology Cell. I see.

So, it came, first meeting actually took place

in Delhi, and I think Professor Raina

from Electrical Engineering Department, he went.

They thought nothing will come out, but then a

few days later, suddenly another fax comes and says,

“Send your representative with complete plan as a fraction.”

So then, Professor Srinath, who was the Director at that time,

he asked Raina, he said, “I am not interested, nothing is

going to happen, nothing.” Unfortunately

or fortunately, I happened to be in Director’s

Office at that time, because I was trying to go

to Delhi for…in connection with my UNESCO Centre.

So, he said, “You go.” Professor Raina said, “You go.”

I said, “What do I do with it, I don’t know?”

He said, “You study, these are the materials, you just

do this. This is what they want.”

So, I worked on it for 2-3 days: tried to at least

bring up some questions, you know what

exactly is going to happen and all.

So we…I attended the meeting.

Then it appeared to be, that they are in a hurry to give funds,

and they did not have much idea,

we also did not have much idea.

So, anyway they are giving the funds,

so, let us create the infrastructure.

And other people later on you know will take it up and...

So, that is how it started.

So, as soon as I came…luckily for me

because I was heading the department,

there was space constraint you know, nobody is willing to

give any…for studio and all that.

So, because of the Mechanical Sciences Block, you know

I was the Head of the Department…under our control,

there was one 356. Prof. Kolar: MSB.

Prof. Sastry: MSB 356 room number. Prof. Kolar: Yes, yes.

Prof. Kolar: It was there for a long time since we shifted to this place. Prof. Sastry: Yeah, it was actually a drawing…this thing,

because by the time, 5 year programme

became 4 year programme, a lot of drawing

instruction was cut from the B.Tech. programme.

So, several of these drawing halls became actually… Prof. Swamy: Yeah, yeah.

vacant, and luckily for us, you know I was able to put it

in the department, and the department very

generously agreed; they did not contest, they said, “Okay,

you take that one”, and then we prepared that studio.

I remember a lot…how much time you spent on getting

the equipment from Japan, the Sony equipment.

You also had the first recruits from that.

Prof. Kolar: Our Ravindranath Mr. Sathasivam: Yes.

Prof. Kolar: was one of the first recruits at that time. Prof. Sastry: It had to go to the

board because basically what they

said is, “Okay, you are creating certain…you know, cameraman, producer

these are not names not normally not available in the IIT system.” Mr. Sathasivam: That’s right.

Prof. Sastry: IIT system. So, what is their career growth?

Supposing you take somebody else, how is he going to grow?

I said, “I don't know.” Prof. Kolar: At that time…

But that time…but with luckily because of

the you know, the generosity of the board as well as the

Director and all the people concerned,

they said…they said, “We will give you just three people:

one cameraman, producer and some other…”

Mr. Sathasivam: So, they were…were you producing videotapes of courses or? Prof. Kolar: Yes.

Prof. Sastry: Yes, courses basically. Prof. Sathasivam: Because it was pre-internet and so on.

Prof. Sastry: Yeah, basically, the idea was to Mr. Sathasivam: Yes.

Prof. Sastry: get for example, lecturers and professors from

various departments, make tapes

on the subject matter, that is basically…

take a subject, you know like a Physics.

In that you would…for example,

undergraduate programme, there is a first year or second year Physics,

the person…the professor actually gives some series of lectures.

So you, for…for a semester, let us say total

about 30-40 lectures you give.

So you make them into about 20 or so, lectures. Prof. Kolar: Yes.

So that the concepts can be explained

by the experts, and send them to various other engineering colleges

if they want to…practically for free.

Mr. Sathasivam: So, these copies were disseminated to colleges. Prof. Kolar: Colleges, yeah.

Prof. Kolar: So this was much before NPTEL came in. Prof. Sastry: That is the

before NPTEL, that is the idea. Mr. Sathasivam: I see.

Prof. Kolar: Yeah, yeah [Inaudible] Prof. Sastry: So, that is

That is how the first…I think the

Professor V. G. K. Murti, Professor Roshan and

Prof. Kolar: Lots of people. Prof. Sastry: few others started…

Prof. Swamy: …50 rupees books.

Prof. Sastry and Prof. Kolar: No no, tapes.

Prof. Sastry: Video tapes.

Prof. Kolar: This was in the…there is a studio that was there in the MSB.

Mr. Sathasivam: The legacy is still there I think.

Prof. Sastry: In fact. Mr. Sathasivam: I think there is still a studio there.

Prof. Sastry: Studio there and it also…we soundproofed it.

We have to…we had to bring experts to soundproof it. Prof. Kolar: Yes, yes sir.

Sir, now we are on this topic of Centre,

you are also aware that the Industrial

Consultancy Centre, which is now the ICSR

was started, and also there was Engineering Design Centre.

Prof. Sastry: Yes. Prof. Kolar: Today we have a Department of Engineering Design.

So, these two are ahead, I mean. Prof. Sastry: Yes.

Prof. Kolar: You started this, can you…your experience with this?

Prof. Sastry: Actually, when I was heading the Department,

the Engineering Design Centre in the…

there was an Engineering Design Centre in the

Department of Mechanical Engineering.

And I don't know the starting time,

probably, it was there for a long time,

because basically 1970…’70

when I joined it was still…it was there at that time.

It was there. What that Engineering Design Centre had was

people from Physics background

and Mechanical Engineering background

and the people from the Physics Department

are also basically in the area of optics.

Optics. So, when…1987 or so,

Professor Srinath said, “What is this,

what is this Centre doing here?”

So, let the physicist go to the Physics Department

and the other people go to Mechanical Engineering Department. Prof. Kolar: Mechanical.

There was obviously, you know, there is a

Prof. Kolar: Different opinions at that time. Prof. Sastry: Different opinion

kind of thing with the Physics Department…our department, [Inaudible]

but we…we have to put through the

Departmental Consultative Committee, we did it

and finally, with the understanding that

the each departmental staff strength

will not be affected. These people were allowed to Prof. Kolar: Yeah.

Prof. Sastry: shift two departments. Prof. Swamy: Because that is Professor Sirohi

Prof. Sastry: Professor Sirohi. Prof. Kolar: Professor R. S. Sirohi,

Prof. Kolar: then Dr. Chennabasavayya from Mechanical Department. Prof. Swamy: I know, I know, I know.

Prof. Sastry: Chennabasavayya came…Kalam Prof. Kolar: Kalam…Kalam was there.

So, these people came to Mechanical Engineering Department.

So, they joined the Machine Design group and so forth.

So, that is how the…but Engineering Design Centre

used to work for some time,

but their collaboration with the industry

in most departments, was basically very very

Prof. Kolar: Yes. Prof. Sastry: small at that time because

the culture still did not develop to that extent right,

like for example, today. Prof. Kolar: Today.

Absolutely. How about the inter…ICC

Professor Wagner was the first person. Prof. Sastry: Yeah.

Professor Wagner was the first person,

I think the second person who…to take over

from him was the…Professor Narayanamurthi.

Prof. Kolar: Narayanamurthi. So this was when Professor Ramachandran was there

Prof. Kolar: or after that? Pandalai. Prof. Sastry: Professor Pandalai. Professor Pandalai was there.

Because Pandalai took over in 1973, I think.

Prof. Kolar: Yes. December 10th. Prof. Sastry: November or December. December, December.

So, he…during his tenure only,

the Heads of Departments, you know the deanships

were created and all. They were not called ‘Dean’ at that time,

it was called ‘Professor-in-charge.’ Prof. Swamy: Yeah.

Professor-in-charge of Industrial Consultancy Centre.

Professor-in-charge of academic courses, like that. Prof. Kolar: Yes.

So, then later on it…it formally became

Prof. Kolar: Dean. Prof. Sastry: Dean. So, the

senior most Heads of Departments actually

were requested to occupy these

new Professor-in-charge positions.

And Professor Narayanamurthi became the

Prof. Kolar: He became. Prof. Sastry: Professor-in-charge at that time.

So, I think this took place around ‘75 or ‘75. Prof. Kolar: ‘5.

Prof. Kolar: Professor Pandalai was the Director at that time. Prof. Sastry: Pandalai was the Director at that time.

Now as you know it has grown into a very big Centre.

So, lots of the…the seeds for today's Prof. Sastry: Yeah.

activities of IIT Madras,

obviously, in ‘70s and ‘80s because of some

very visionary people and their efforts.

So, slightly shifting focus,

you were also Chairman of the Vanavani Committee.

Prof. Sastry: Yes. Prof. Kolar: What, what was the situation?

What were your contributions there? Prof. Sastry: Yeah, Professor Indiresan

actually…one day called me and he said,

“Will you take over the Vanavani School?” Prof. Swamy: Okay.

So, I said, “It so happened my children also were going to

Vanavani and Vanavani actually had a very good reputation

in the city at that time…was one of the best schools

because…primarily because Mrs. Peter was the principal.

The…excellent principal. So,

she brought up the reputation like anything.

So I thought, okay, but unfortunately,

the funds availability was not very high, number 1,

second thing is the employees…

there was a rule in Vanavani School

that 50 percent of the children must be from…from the IIT,

and every child must be every child

requesting admission to Vanavani from within IIT,

he or she…she should be provided.

So you cannot deny the admission.

So that was the condition.

So, usually we used to have approximately

about 1800 to 2000 children.

So about 1000 or so, used to be from

within IIT, and 1000 from outside.

So, what happened was, there was a

large demand from the Employees Association

that earlier there used to be ISC system

the Union School Certificate… Mr. Sathasivam: Yes.

Secondary Certificate System. But they wanted to

make it into a State Board.

So…so…so there was a big problem because

the State Board means, the…they said they had

alternatives: either to run it as a private school

with State Board this thing,

or hand it over to the state government,

in which case the teachers employed…

all these people will be employed.

Control will be completely only by them,

the transfer the…this thing, and second…thirdly,

more importantly, the medium of instruction should be Tamil.

And because of the nature of our

institution, lot of people were not willing to have the

Tamil-medium instruction in the school. Prof. Kolar: I see.

So therefore, what to do?

So we have to have it, and the

funds availability was not very high.

So, prior to taking over as Chairman,

I was on the Management Committee for 2 years.

So I knew the problems. So therefore,

what we tried to do is, I introduced the thing which is…

initially there was some resistance;

basically what I said was,

“For providing all this infrastructure, you know,

free electricity, free water, free furniture,

free buildings and everything from the IIT

is a perquisites that is being given for the staff of the IIT.

But why should the outsiders

enjoy these things at the same tuition fees?”

So I said, “Tuition fees we cannot

differentiate: outsider or insider.”

So what I said is, “The establishment fees

we charge the outsiders. 150 rupees per year

per year.” Prof. Swamy: I see.

So if 1000 people were there, 1.5 lakhs was coming.

So I said okay, we now… Prof. Kolar: That was a…that is a large

Prof. Kolar: amount of money at that time. Prof. Sastry: That is a large amount in those days.

So that, we can increase the infrastructure. Mr. Sathasivam: When you say

those days it is the 1980s or

What period was your association with? Prof. Sastry: It is ‘80 to ‘84.

That was when the question of the mode arose

as well. the ‘81 or so, the period when…

Prof. Sastry: Which one? The… Prof. Kolar: Mode…that problem with the

Mr. Sathasivam: The ISC or the State Board...

Prof. Sastry: Yeah, in fact, which I changed…the system only from Mr. Sathasivam: That was the time.

Prof. Sastry: this previous one to State Board. Mr. Sathasivam: Yes, yes, yes, yes.

Prof. Sastry: State Board, that means ‘plus 2’ so called plus 2. Prof. Swamy: Yeah yeah yeah

Prof. Swamy: Of course. Prof. Sastry: Plus 2. And also around the same time,

the IIT also from a 5 year programme,

It changed to 4 year programme. Mr. Sathasivam: That’s right.

So, because of that, there was some surplus

lab facilities and here I must really

thank actually Dr. R. Srinivasan who was Physics…

he was Deputy Director at that time.

Deputy Director. He was very very cooperative, very nice.

He said, “Some of these experiments and all these things…

now that there is a plus 2,

let the school kids, you know, have the

advantage of these experiments.”

So he shifted actually some of this

equipment and all that…that

for Chemistry, Physics experiments.

He allowed us to use…the…

So that way, we were able to develop the

science labs in Vanavani.

In fact, which became a…which caused tremendous envy to

a large number of external examiners

Prof. Kolar: Yes. Prof. Sastry: Who were coming to examine our…our students.

Mr. Sathasivam: Yes. Prof. Sastry: Because each student was given actually one particular lab,

I mean, table, experiment, 48 students were there

in each section and each person actually had a…

under the table there is a shelf and everything,

they can put their stuff there.

We created that one.

So the establishment charges are 150,

what we tried to do was to…

how to…how to I wanted to

separate the primary school, secondary school,

and higher secondary school, in three units.

So for that primary, we wanted to shift from the

same place to another building which was there.

So, we wanted to have a top floor to construct that one.

Luckily for me, our managing committee

had Mr. Malayalam…was the Prof. Kolar: He was the

Prof. Sastry: Executive Engineer. Prof. Kolar: Executive Engineer.

So, I requested him, “Can we borrow some

bricks and cement and sand…things like that,”

Then there used to be Centre for Rural Development.

Prof. Kolar: Yes. So, Centre for Rural Development Head,

Dr. Radhakrishna I asked him…

they were doing some research about the Fibre-reinforced

concrete: FRC. Fibre-reinforced concrete,

which is a cheap material,

relatively speaking, compared to Portland cement.

So they were actually…

So they said, “Okay, why don't you use it?”

In that, the chicken mesh

you know, is the reinforcement, not the steel.

So, using that, we constructed. I think

today, still it is standing.

So, that we constructed, made rooms,

and the primary section was shifted there.

Mr. Sathasivam: Now this is within Vanavani, sir? Prof. Sastry: Within Vanavani.

Mr. Sathasivam: Right. Prof. Sastry: So basically, we borrowed the material from IIT,

Mr. Sathasivam: Yes. Prof. Sastry: Money, so far as these establishment charges

from the outsiders. With that, we were able to

bring the financial health of the school

Mr. Sathasivam: Yes. Prof. Sastry: to a reasonably good level.

Mr. Sathasivam: Yeah. Prof. Kolar: Sir, it’s interesting you mentioned CRD

because we were also there at that time.

Professor Indiresan started. Prof. Sastry: Yes.

You mentioned Dr. Radhakrishnan. He…you were…you were

talking about this son of Professor Bhagavantham Prof. Sastry: Son of

Professor Bhagavantham, yes. Prof. Kolar: who was in charge of the CR…

Prof. Sastry: He was Physics professor here.

Prof. Swamy: Hostel. Prof. Kolar: Yes. So, can you say something about the Centre?

The idea was… Prof. Sastry: The idea…

Prof. Kolar: From from Professor Indiresan at that time. Prof. Sastry: Yeah.

Prof. Sastry: Basically, the reason is that, you know

the…the national political situation

was such that you know, people wanted to have

always something connected to rural, rural, rural, rural area.

So, Professor Indiresan wanted to have a Centre

for Rural Development in the…in the there,

how to use for example,

whether for cooking purposes, or for

house building purposes, or whatever.

What kind of experts in our technology…

technological institutions? How they can actually

help the rural people

using the local substances and materials?

How we can improve their living conditions?

So as a part of that, they were taking several projects.

In fact, the energy also they were doing

something…wind energy also later on came because of that. Prof. Kolar: Yes.

And then they were trying to

have this for cheap construction.

They were developing this particular

Fibre-reinforced concrete. They were doing some experiments.

And Dr. Radhakrishna said, “You know, it…it…it

stands and there is…we have already experimented, it is okay,

so you can certainly use this.

and… Mr. Sathasivam: It was also known as ferrocement...I und…I remember, yes, yes.

Prof. Kolar: So we will come to academics and research.

I see that you were associated with 7 Directors

starting from Professor Ramachandran

up to Professor Natarajan, Prof. Sastry: Natarajan.

Prof. Kolar: during your stay here.

And quite a few changes happened in academics and research.

As you recall, in your experience, what would you say

in the…from the academics point of view?

Some important developments took place?

The…the academic side, basically as I was telling the

the…the creation of the deanships.

For example, the…the academic courses and research. Prof. Kolar: Yes.

So, there is a Board of Academic Research,

and Board of Academic Courses.

So therefore, there is a…every department actually

is represented in each of these boards.

And they determine what will be the kind of…

the curriculum or the research material

that you can have; research atmosphere.

For example, when I became Dean of Research,

Prof. Kolar: That was 1990. Prof. Sastry: 1990. ‘90 to ’93.

During that period, the…

for one of the first things that I tried to do,

because at that time, the students were taking

a long time to complete the Ph.D. and the

reason for this long time was primarily because,

from the time of submitting the synopsis and Ph.D.,

by the time they get the reports and all that,

that used to take a long time.

So therefore, of course, because of the difficulties

of equipment and funds and all that kind of

thing, anyway some delay was taking place.

But more than that, even the processing of the work Prof. Kolar: Thesis.

Prof. Sastry: Thesis, was getting delayed.

So I tried to first of all, collect over the previous

several years, what was the time that is being

taken by each department in terms of…

because we thought, I thought the…after all the person

completes his Ph.D.

he should enter the profession as early as possible.

It’s a…it's not fair for us to keep the student for too long.

Prof. Kolar: After submitting the Ph.D. thesis. Prof. Sastry: After submitting the Ph.D. also.

So, when I did that, I found certain

lacunae in the processing.

So we tried to first of all improve that one,

and I think fairly…we were able to

do this number 1. Number 2 is the quality of the Ph.D.,

because a large number of Ph.D.s coming out at that time.

In fact, at that time the number of Ph.D.s coming out

was itself very small. Prof. Kolar: Yeah.

For example, in mechanic…in…in the entire engineering areas,

it was only 29 or 30 per year.

Whereas, much more…much larger number in the…

from the Science and the Mathematics Departments. Prof. Kolar: Science, yeah sciences.

So, the question is, what about the quality?

So the quality is…one way of determining the

quality is the…out of the thesis,

how many papers are being published, Prof. Swamy: Yeah.

in refereed journals. So I found that

that number was not very great.

So we tried to propose Prof. Kolar: Sir, in fact, some Ph.D. thesis went…

passed without any publications also. Prof. Sastry: Without any…

Prof. Sastry: there are several, in fact. Prof. Kolar: No it is very important because today there are

many…big guidelines for theses pub…even submission.

So, it…it started at that time. Prof. Sastry: At that time.

Because basically what I proposed was,

I discussed it extensively in the Board of Academic Research

and then we tried to find out, okay,

when you submit the thesis, the synopsis,

by that time, you should have published:

two journal papers, whether international or national

doesn’t matter, should publish.

In the Board of Academic Research,

they said, “It’s too tough.”

So we said, “Okay, one journal publication

and one conference paper.” Prof. Swamy: Yeah.

So finally, the Board of Academic Research agreed,

So we put it before the…and I…

we…I went to the…Professor N. V. C. Swamy who was Director. Prof. Kolar: Yeah.

He said, “It’s a good thing, we should…

but it…when it came to the Senate, Prof. Kolar: Yes.

It ran into opposition and they said, “No, no”

because a large number of cases in engineering particularly

the…the data collection itself will take a long time

to prepare the unit itself,

the experimental unit itself in the

fabrication and all that, it takes a long time.

So it's not possible to do this, but anyway,

finally, what was decided was,

at least one paper in a journal or a conference,

internat…refereed conference, Prof. Kolar: Yeah.

it should be published.

So that is how it started.

So the quality improvement of the thesis,

we tried to at least introduce,

but I think nowadays, I think it is very common…

lot of…nowadays and moreover the

availability of resources also is much more now,

compared to…at that time.

Prof. Kolar: Also, earlier times, if you send a paper,

it would be take two weeks to reach. Prof. Sastry: Yeah.

And they would take months for…you know

peer review, and then we have to again go back

to them. It could take even year or even more than that.

Why, for example, in our subject, the Heat Transfer,

the International Journal of Heat Transfer

used to cost 125 dollars per year.

But the…just imagine, in those days,

if you submit in an United States, for example,

if you submit a paper, by the time it is reviewed

and all this kind of a thing and it see…it comes in

the print, it used to take about 9 months to 1 year.

Prof. Kolar: Oh even there, in those days. Prof. Sastry: Even there, in those days.

Now, that particular journal comes by sea mail.

Mr. Sathasivam: Yes. So it used to take 4 months or 5 months sometimes.

And first of all, this is one journal; international journal.

They are not enough funds here, because I was

Dean of Research, I was also in charge of the library. Prof. Kolar: Oh I see.

Mr. Sathasivam: The library committee was trying to

Mr. Sathasivam: you know economize some of the. Prof. Sastry: Economize.

Mr. Sathasivam: Yes, I remember that Prof. Sastry: In fact, I was

Prof. Sastry: I was the Mr. Sathasivam: Yes, that’s right.

Prof. Sastry: Chairman of that committee: Library Committee.

Departments were asked to prioritize

the journals, if I remember right. Prof. Sastry: Prioritize

Prof. Sastry: prioritize for example, Mr. Sathasivam: Yes, that’s right.

even the…the…what is that…chemical index or something.

Prof. Kolar: Yes, yes, engineering index. Engineering…engineering index.

Prof. Kolar: We are…all the journals. Some of those things

you know, they said, you know,

“Why don't you have this one?”

Consequently, what I am trying to say is,

the funds availability was low,

in addition to that, even if for example,

I submit in…in…in…in Heat Transfer

let us say there half a dozen,

I can submit only…I can only subscribe

only to one journal; this one.

This also comes after one and a half years.

In other words, the…the subject

if I am looking at, in the journal,

is actually one and a half years old. Prof. Kolar: Old. Mr. Sathasivam: Yes, yes.

So, these are the practical difficulties

in research, and we were trying to somehow, you know…

but the idea was there that

we recognize these problems,

and we were trying to find some solutions.

And in that sense I think

there was a lot of cooperation.

Occasionally there will be some

difference of opinions. Prof. Kolar: Yes, yes.

But generally speaking, we had very good cooperation

in terms of…for example, the…the library.

The alumni said, at that time,

“We will construct a diff...library.

We will give you for construction.”

I tried to argue with the Professor…

Director at that time, Professor Swamy.

Library is not the building, it is the books inside.

Now as Library Committee Chairman,

I am cutting down the…

what is the point in having a big building?

Prof. Kolar: And there is no money to buy the books. When there is no money.

So is it possible, please consider

whether you can have a fund

that the alumni gives,

out of which you know, you can

spend for the journals.

But of course, for the…it could not materialize,

but what I am trying to say is that,

that used to be the difficulties Prof. Kolar: Yes.

in…in…in Prof. Kolar: Absolutely.

in conducting research or…

these are the difficulties.

So…but anyway, it was basically,

it has come a long way now.

So in terms of academics,

I remember during those times

the credit system was introduced,

‘Best Teachers’ awards were being given,

and you were…you received that,

and also student feedback. Prof. Sastry: Yes.

So could you say something about this? Prof. Sastry: Actually

the…it was not very…in an organized way,

but I think Professor Pandalai was the

first person to…to think of

some kind of a teacher evaluation.

He was the first person.

So he apparently…I don’t know

how he did it, but he collected

a lot of information from

some of the very good students

in each department. In each…at…at…at every level.

And after getting that information,

he identified some people from

each department as ‘Best Teachers.’

And he put up these names

before the board, and the board

said, “Yes, it is a good idea,

and… Prof. Kolar: Because there is no committee,

Prof. Kolar: there is no other parameters. Prof. Sastry: So, there is no committee and all that.

Prof. Sastry: No no. Prof. Kolar: We don't know about that.

But Pandalai sent individual letters

to…”Glad that you know you are…you are…you are deemed to be a…”

Prof. Kolar: It was called the ‘Best Teacher Award.’ ‘Best Teacher Award.’

‘Best Teacher Award.’ ‘Best Teacher…’

Prof. Swamy: Excuse me, this was not known to everybody.

Prof. Kolar: Everybody. That's what I am saying,

that's what I am saying.

So, I don't know. Prof. Kolar: It was an almost individual thing

Prof. Kolar: that he did Prof. Swamy: I came to know of it

Prof. Swamy: because I started reading the board minutes.

Prof. Kolar: Okay. Prof. Swamy: Otherwise, I would not have known.

See that is the…that is…

that is why I said, Prof. Kolar: That’s all

it has come actually as a…we don’t know.

So in that process for example,

people like you know, V. G. K. Murti

and…I also got one letter and all that,

but I really didn't…

but ulti…formally it was started by

Professor Indiresan. Prof. Swamy: Yeah.

Professor Indiresan used to

issue a weekly newsletter. Prof. Kolar: Yes.

It come…used to come on Friday,

and in that newsletter,

giving all the other news about the IIT,

what is happening and all that,

at the end of the semester,

at the back of that newsletter,

They used to be a list of the Prof. Swamy: Correct.

best teachers in the order of ranking,

or…but each…not ranking as such,

but these are the best teachers,

and he created a criteria;

he asked for the feedback from the students. Prof. Kolar: Oh, okay

And some 7.5 or so

out of 10, whoever gets,

only they will be recognized as good teachers.

So that kind of system he developed

and he…it ran for quite some time,

I think several years it was…

but it is…at least open and it is a feedback.

That is…it was organized,

better organized. Prof. Sastry: Organized way in a

Prof. Sastry: systematic fashion Prof. Kolar: Today also

we have, some ‘Young Teacher and Scientists Awards’,

there is endowments from…not endowments,

some alumni have contributed

to recognize the best teacher. Prof. Sastry: Yeah,

Prof. Sastry: best teacher Prof. Kolar: Couple of them.

Prof. Sastry: In fact, on Teachers’ Day,

…in fact, I was there

as a Teachers’ Day Prof. Kolar: Oh…oh…oh you are

Prof. Sastry: chief guest you know in 2012,

Prof. Sastry: so I gave…gave the awards to

Prof. Swamy: Yeah he…he came as chief guest. Prof. Kolar: Oh, okay.

Prof. Swamy: He gave the awards to… Prof. Kolar: Sir,

how about the credit system?

It was a very major change. Prof. Sastry: Credit system

also was introduced by Professor Indiresan. Prof. Kolar: Okay.

Professor Indiresan. In fact, the

so called…the time table smart slot system. Prof. Kolar: Okay.

You know, ABC slots

and the credit system was introduced by…

Professor Indiresan is you know, is a man of

you know…is a very…constantly coming up

with ideas and it's very…

that way, he is also very dynamic.

CRD also was his idea.

CRD…[Inaudible]…CRD although which did not.

Prof. Sastry: Yeah, yeah. Prof. Kolar: For a long time it didn't work,

Prof. Sastry: Yes. Prof. Kolar: but the idea was…

Because I remember, as I had just then joined only,

I think. Indiresan was leaving. Prof. Sastry: Yes.

We thought CRD was…as…resource…

I mean, young faculty members, it’s a good idea,

IIT should be developing technology for India. Prof. Sastry: Yeah.

And if the rural people require

you know I remember they were talking about

developing a cart with tyres or something like that,

so that it’s easy for the farmer to use these things.

We thought, as very new faculty,

it's a very nice Centre,

but for a period of time for several reasons,

Prof. Kolar: it was Prof. Sastry: But yeah,

Prof. Sastry: he was very conscious of the Prof. Kolar:…stopped.

you know, how to interact with the society

and rural areas, and how to transfer

this technology to the needy…

this thing…particularly using the

local resources and local materials. Prof. Swamy: Yeah

Sir, you saw the documentary

in the beginning; we talk a lot about

Indo-German cooperation,

and we take pride in saying,

“Ours is the only institute

which still continues to have good

collaborative programmes with Germany.”

What was your experience,

and…either on your own

or as a witness to some of these things?

In a way this…this…out of all this

international cooperation in the establishment of IITs,

the German experiment is the best.

Not only because that…see for example, in IIT Kanpur;

they had only a 10 year programme,

and after 10 years, they stopped. Prof. Swamy: Yeah.

Prof. Kolar: I see. Prof. Sastry: Stop…there is nothing

no further…see at a mutual level

there may be exchange of

Prof. Kolar: Based on personal contacts. Prof. Sastry: Personal contact,

but as institutionally there is none.

Whereas, as you know very well, that

after the programme of first 10 years…

then they continued for another 3 years,

but most importantly, after some time

I think it’s about…see that

next three 3 years is extended,

and one more I think…2 years or so

they extended on the basis of

Joint Research Programmes.

Prof. Swamy: So we had even in 1987…

Indo-German projects…Indo-German projects. [Inaudible]

But the thing…in that, the

basic thing is that they explicitly recognize

that a Professor from Germany,

and a Professor from IIT,

they are basically equal people,

in other words…in that sense, that is the…

Prof. Kolar: I see. Prof. Sastry: very important aspect

in other words they said, “Okay,

now IIT Madras has developed to such a level

that we can consider them as actually…” Mr. Sathasivam: Partners.

Prof. Sastry: a part. So that is a very good thing,

so in that sense it was continuing,

of course, at the individual level

there is always there…that cooperation,

but it was formalized

and continued for a long time

and that experiment only was in

in…Germany experiment. Prof. Kolar: IIT Madras

Prof. Kolar: Indo-German cooperation. Prof. Sastry: For example, as I said

earlier you know in IIT Kanpur,

the IIT Kanpur Director at

that time, Dr. Kelkar when I was there,

he was all for young faculty joining

you know, to continue their Ph.D.,

but the American side said no.

So the kind of…you know, cut and dried kind of thing

was not here, because they said

they understood what exactly needed,

and how it can be gradually transformed,

taken to a higher level,

and during all this time

they continue the cooperation.

So in that sense I think it’s a…

the most successful experiment.

Because…because of my association with

both IIT Kharagpur and Prof. Kolar: Yeah.

Prof. Sastry: Kanpur. Prof. Kolar: IIT Kanpur.

In fact, one more IIT you missed;

I also taught for some time at IIT Chicago.

[Laughter] Oh, oh I missed out on that!

Then immediately after Ph.D., you were there for

Prof. Sastry: No no, when I was a faculty member

Prof. Sastry: at the University of Illinois, Chicago,

Prof. Kolar: Oh you taught… Prof. Sastry: I was teaching evening

classes at IIT Chicago.

Prof. Kolar: So you have had experience with IIT Kharagpur,

Kanpur, IISc Bangalore, IIT Madras,

and before UICC you were in

Prof. Kolar: some other university which had been shifted Prof. Sastry: Actually I

Prof. Sastry: joined this thing only Prof. Kolar: from

Prof. Sastry: University of Delaware, so my Prof. Kolar: Yes exactly.

Ph.D. formally actually is only

from University of Delaware.

But my Ph.D., because

that is another st…that has got nothing to do with this,

because my guide Professor Dr. Hartnett,

extremely competent person, very famous person,

Prof. Kolar: Yeah. Prof. Sastry: But highly short-tempered person.

And because of a difference of opinion with him,

as Head of the Department,

and the President of the University, Prof. Kolar: Yes.

Suddenly he said, “Oh you invited me

to come to this place…

now if you are ask…you are inviting

me to go out I will go out.”

So he resigned and went.

so. And he started the energy centre in Chicago.

Prof. Sastry: Energy…no, Energy Engineering Department. Prof. Kolar: Engineering Department.

Prof. Sastry: That is another story, of course about Prof. Kolar: Yes, yes.

Prof. Sastry: the University of Illinois…this thing, Prof. Kolar: Yes.

but that is a…there were not conventional

engineering departments, there were

actually 4 departments in engineering college

at that time, that was started in 1965:

Energy Engineering, Information Engineering,

Systems Engineering and Materials Engineering.

These four were the departments.

They were all supposed to be

interdisciplinary kind of thing.

Prof. Sastry: So Energy is a…department was there. Prof. Kolar: Yes.

After some time you know, because,

like everywhere, when you have this degree

from Energy Engineering, their employability;

the graduates employability will be a problem.

So they…after a few years

Prof. Sastry: they reverted back to conventional names: Prof. Kolar: [softly] Streams.

Mechanical, Civil and Electrical and so forth.

Sir, so, I want to have an overall picture.

You started as a student in IIT Kharagpur,

and ended in IIT Madras,

but in the last 20 years also

you have kept…you are observing

how…what is happening.

So what is your overall picture of

especially research in IITs? At that time,

how they developed and what it is today?

Obviously, there is a tremendous growth

that has taken place in IIT Madras,

both in terms of quantity as well as quality.

So far as the quality is concerned,

earlier it was generally of a lower quality

mainly because of lack of resources.

Was it a…really a problem, sir?

Prof. Sastry: As I said. Prof. Kolar: Because we always complain…lack of funds.

As I said earlier, for example,

the journal that we were talking about:

it takes about one and half years to get here.

Prof. Sastry: Now, what is happening in Prof. Kolar: Yes.

Prof. Swamy: Information Prof. Sastry: anywhere else in the world

is a matter of a few minutes.

The click of a button,

you can just get the information.

Prof. Swamy: Information was not available Prof. Sastry: So information availability

So therefore, in those days, you pick up a problem primarily from

Prof. Sastry: what is happening elsewhere. Prof. Swamy: Yeah.

Prof. Sastry: And that too, that is old information. Prof. Kolar: Old information.

And that naturally affects the quality.

Whereas now, instantaneously

you can get what is happening,

you are on top of this thing, plus,

now I see that a large number of

people are returning also from abroad.

In those days when I came back from India,

In fact, when I went actually after 4 or 5 years

to America for 3 months, to spend summer,

all my friends at that time were asking me…

they wanted me to say

that I was a stupid going back.

“How could you do that kind of a thing?”

So in other words, the…that was the feeling.

But…so in other words, coming here

Prof. Sastry: was actually very rare kind of thing, Prof. Kolar: Yeah.

in fact, even large number of faculty here

and also some of the students, final year students

who are applying for universities abroad,

they used to come and say,

Prof. Sastry: “Sir what…why did you come?” Prof. Kolar: “Why did you come?”

So now, but that has

become actually much more…people are now…

less number of people are going,

and more people are also returning,

which is a very good

Prof. Kolar: So, you must be very happy that today… Prof. Sastry: So,

that also increases the quality of the work

that is being done now, compared to that.

Today IIT Madras is number 1 in the country

for the la…in our scheme of things.

So in that sense it obviously,

you know, with time things will improve,

but they are improving actually quite nicely.

at a very good rate also,

because of the changes that are occurring

in the technology itself.

Mr. Sathasivam: Now what are the factors you see

Mr. Sathasivam: driving the directions of research now,

Mr. Sathasivam: so now that everything is level as it were.

Earlier the…you mentioned that

Mr. Sathasivam: there were restrictions Prof. Sastry: Yeah.

because of the availability of

Mr. Sathasivam: information and so forth. Prof. Sastry: Yes.

So now, the things are changed…

The things have changed. For example,

right now, the…the way I understand,

because I don’t know much about

exact individual cases, but generally speaking,

there is no lack of resources.

Even at that time, there was no lack of resources.

For example, when Dr. Ramachandran took over

as Department Science and Technology Secretary…

he is a Director, Dr. Gururaja

Prof. Sastry: who was also my classmate in IISc Bangalore. Prof. Kolar: Gururaja was there.

He came one day to…he said,

“Dr. Ramachandran is asking you know,

why there was no proposal from you?

I have got 7 crores with me,

so why don’t you take some projects?”

I particularly avoided writing any proposal

mainly because, you know, people will simply say

that you know, “It’s…he’s is a very close

student of Dr. Ramachandran,

so that is how he got the…”

so I was avoiding that.

So what I am trying to say is, that

basically the resources for IITs

in those days also was not a problem.

Resources…financial resources I am talking about,

but in terms of other resources are require to do research,

whether in terms of…

for example, getting something…some…some…some

piece of equipment done.

In those days restriction was, you have to first of all

go to the Central Workshops.

Prof. Sastry: You have to get it done. Prof. Kolar: Yeah.

Nowadays for example,

you can just go out and get it any time you want.

Yes sir. That is what we did as research scholars.

Prof. Kolar: We got everything done here. Prof. Sastry: Yeah everything done here.

See, in that connection, for sake of record again,

can you say something about the Gavi scheme?

The Gavi scheme I…

Prof. Kolar: This is a Indo-German Prof. Sastry: Yeah yeah.

Prof. Kolar: scheme for buying equipment from

Prof. Kolar: Germany for Indian research scholars…IIT Madras. Prof. Sastry: For Indian research scholars.

Yeah, I don’t know much about it,

I don’t know much about it, but only thing is

that sometimes it you know, led to some unnecessary

Prof. Swamy: Yeah. Prof. Kolar: Okay, yeah.

Prof. Sastry: complications and Prof. Kolar: Yeah.

I was…I asked…I said that

because as a great benefit, me and others,

we got our Hot Wire Anemometers

through that, I got the hot wires themselves,

Prof. Kolar: lot of equipment and all those Porous Plates. Prof. Sastry: Yeah.

As a single research scholar,

I was…greatly benefited. It…

I didn’t have to go to another place for funding.

Through our lab, we applied with his signature

and it took time, but we got them.

Lot of research scholars were benefited

through that scheme. Later of course, it was…

Actually, as I was telling you earlier,

this RDOEI project that we got,

and that actually became very significant

because, not only being the first you know

major sponsored research project,

but in 1974, the BHEL Corporate R and D was established…

Prof. Kolar: In Hyderabad. Prof. Sastry: in Chennai…in Hyderabad

Prof. Sastry: Hyderabad…in Hyderabad Prof. Kolar: In Hyderabad.

And the first General Manager was T. V. Balakrishnan.

So…he actually, you know, they all

came from the manufacturing side and practical side.

So when R and D was established,

now he had lot of problems:

How to…first of all start the work and how to staff the

people who are competent researchers.

So he is found somewhere…that this RDOEI project

we made something in Heat Transfer Lab here.

So he came to me and he said,

“What is this? Can you help us?”

So, we actually made for the cooling purposes

Prof. Sastry: and all that…what is called RC network analyser, Prof. Kolar: Yes, yes.

huge thing. And he said, “Please, you know, help us in this thing.”

So we were associated with this,

Prof. Sastry: and I think 3 of our Ph.D. scholars were actually Prof. Kolar: Yes, yes.

Prof. Sastry: taken by him. Prof. Kolar: Yes.

Prof. Sastry: And… Prof. Kolar: K. V. C. Rao was the first one, maybe.

Prof. Sastry: Yeah. Prof. Kolar: He was the faculty

Prof. Kolar: He did his Ph.D. on that Prof. Sastry: Ph.D. here.

So basically, that particular thing actually continued,

that first project…sponsored research project

continued for several years even afterwards.

With BHEL Corporate R and D in…this thing.

So, those are at least some good experiences

for us in terms of interacting with the institutions outside

the educational institution and…

Sir, very nice, any…any other?

We can go on talking to Professor Sastry for a long time but

Prof. Kolar: we have covered quite a few areas. Mr. Sathasivam: Yes.

Prof. Swamy: No, no, no, I just want…we have not told why Professor Sastry always cuts jokes. [Laughter]

Well I…yeah,

Prof. Swamy: Give a chance to… Prof. Kolar: I have been greatly benefited by my association

with him for last 47 years;

I was one of his first research scholars.

I just want to add to this, sir;

when I came from IIT Kharagpur after M.Tech.

So Heat Transfer was a new area,

and we were only 2 Ph.D. scholars

that day for interview: Professor Srinivasa Murthy and myself,

and you and Professor MBK were in this MSB.

I just…I walked towards you, and Srinivasa Murthy

walked towards MBK and that was it.

It was over evening we were…we had said, “We were selected.”

And all that…but when I joined,

I was so excited about the work that was going on

in the lab. I came from Kharagpur

where it would be a lot of experimental work,

but the research environment was great.

And I was doubly blessed that

Professor Ramachandran was the Chairman of the

first Registration Committee.

All the facu…Professor Subbaraju, Professor Gopichand,

Professor T. K. Bose. It was for me, you know,

for a new…I was hardly 21.

It was a very exciting thing that

I am in the midst of these, you know, great people.

And Ramachandran, in fact, he…he suggested

an answer to me when somebody asked a question,

I was not able to answer, he said,

“Why don’t you say this”, you know, and he remembered it

after several years, he said, you know,

“How are you doing? Your free conviction Ph.D. is over.”

I was greatly…I was a great admirer of him.

I talked about him in the one of the earlier…

and you were associated with him

and with 7 Directors. You held different positions.

So, you have so much, of course, to share with us.

The small…this thing:

Dr. Ramachandran used to have a room in our laboratory,

Prof. Sastry: and that room was occupied by Kolar. Prof. Swamy: Yeah, yeah.

Prof. Kolar: I…I…yes…yeah [Laughter]

Prof. Kolar: I said that. Prof. Swamy: He has told about it.

We would…just to add to that sir,

we knew when Professor Ramachandran is visiting the lab,

there is so much of activity,

Professor Sastry running around,

Professor Natarajan will come from there

T. K. Bose will come from there,

MVK, he won't stand,

he would just walk all over the laboratory

and talk to technic…everybody, “What…what are you doing?”, you know.

Prof. Kolar: He was such a great force. Prof. Sastry: But…but

you might have got the impression, that

Dr. Ramachandran was interested only

in the Heat Transfer Lab and department,

Prof. Sastry: but actually, what he was doing was… Prof. Kolar: Yeah.

9 o’clock is the Director’s…

normally he goes to the office.

8 o’clock he starts in his own car,

Prof. Sastry: you don’t know which department he will go to. Prof. Kolar: I see Prof. Swamy: he had come to our…

Prof. Sastry: Yeah, which department? Prof. Kolar: Unannounced

Prof. Kolar: he would come Prof. Sastry: Unannounced.

So there is no question of…any show or anything.

So he comes there, and talks to people,

many of them were actually faculty members

working for their Ph.Ds.

So basically you know, lecturers and so forth.

And he under…tries to learn from them

what topic they are working and all.

Probably to go to that lab, he may get a

chance only after several months.

But then when he goes there,

Prof. Sastry: “Last time you were doing this”, you know, Prof. Kolar: Yes

He remembers. His memory was phenomenal.

Prof. Kolar: Absolutely. Prof. Swamy: He used to meet students also.

Prof. Kolar: Yes sir. Prof. Sastry: Because I had the opportunity,

lucky opportunity of working with him

Prof. Sastry: even in the United Nations. Prof. Kolar: Yeah

Prof. Kolar: We didn't cover that actually. Prof. Sastry: Yeah

…in the United Nations.

And the…the respect that he commanded

you know, with the entire staff…in the…that is unbelievable.

Even Centre for Human Settlements in Nairobi.

Prof. Sastry: So basically, he is a different kind of person. Mr. Sathasivam: Right.

Professor Sastry, sir, thank you very much

for taking your time. You are very close by,

Prof. Kolar: so whenever we want, again we will come and talk to you. Prof. Sastry: Okay.

You have shared with us, lots of important things,

which are significant aspects of the IIT Madras history,

and that has come to us with your personal experience

and your own perspective. On behalf of the Heritage Centre

here, thank you very much.

We will try to keep in touch with you,

and…you have not yet visited the Heritage…this is the first time,

so maybe we…go around. Thank you very much.

Thank you for the opportunity

and I was not really a great important player

in the…in this thing, but at the same time,

you know, whatever my experiences and personal

Prof. Sastry: feelings and perceptions, I have tried to share with you,

Prof. Sastry: and thank you very much for the opportunity.

Prof. Kolar: Thank you. Mr. Sathasivam: Thank you, Professor Sastry.

Contribute
to the Centre
Monetary
Support
Digital
Material

< Back

Prof. C. R. Muthukrishnan in conversation with Prof. C. Pandu Rangan

Contribute
to the Centre
Monetary
Support
Digital
Material

< Back

Prof. H. Md. Roshan in conversation with Prof. B.S.Murty.

Welcome Professor Roshan.

Thanks for coming and being with us in this campus,

your own campus, I know.

And, you have been a stalwart here,

in the area of foundry.

Spent a large number of years.

I heard that, '67 you came here.

And, I would like to know, first of all, about your...

What brought you to IIT Madras? Okay,

Professor Murty, I wish to thank you very much.

I wish to thank you,

I wish to thank Mamata,

and Kumaran and Rajaraman,

for giving an opportunity to speak to you today.

I am really very happy to talk to you,

and whatever questions which you have got. Thank you.

Thank you. You asked me about

what brought me here.

I will tell you briefly about my background and how I Yes, sir

came over here. We would like to know about your

background education before coming to IIT Madras,

and then what really motivated you to come here.

and then, you did wonderful work, I know that,

we will come to that a little later. Yes, Professor.

When I completed my high school,

it was called SSLC,

now it is not, no longer there.

So, I completed my SSLC in 1957. Where was that professor?

Where, where was that, which place? In Markapur.

There is one town in Kurnool district, Markapur.

And then, my mother and my dad, they sent me

to Loyola College, Vijayawada

it is called. Andhra Loyola College. Vijayawada Loyola College.

I know.

So, I went there. Incidentally,

I studied in a college which was just adjacent to that.

There is a government polytechnic

next to Andhra Loyola College,

and I did my diploma in that polytechnic, just...

I, yeah. just for your information, that is it.

I know that, it is in Gurazala. yeah.

I know about the polytechnic also. Wonderful, I mean very

well known place, Loyola College,

everybody talks about it.

So, '57, at that time,

there was no...the plus 2 was not there.

So, it was PUC.

PUC, correct. So, that was my, the last batch of the PUC.

PUC. I did my PUC, I got.

Then, I applied for engineering colleges.

I was underaged.

So, they could, I could not get into engineering college.

So, I had to do one year of BA over there. BA, okay.

So, and then, and then, '58 I completed. Okay.

And then, I applied for engineering college.

At that time, in Tirupati,

University College of Engineering, they started. So.

S.V. University, University College. Yes.

First batch, I belonged to the first batch of

Sri Venkateswara University College of Engineering. Was that the first

engineering college in Andhra, sir? No.

Anantapur, Anantapur is another engineering college. Anantapur, okay.

It is a government engineering college. What about Vizag,

Andhra University was not there those days?

That is Andhra University, that is separate.

So, so you, you belong to Vijayawada, that area?

Correct. So, okay.

Correct. So, so, I got a seat there.

So, 1959 to 1963.

Okay, that was 4 years.

No, it was actually 5 years,

it is a 5 year programme. Okay.

And... I heard, those days it used to always

to be, always 5 years. 5 years.

What happened was, at that time

the Indo-China War was there,

so accelerated course.

We graduated, instead of in, normally in June,

we graduated in December 1963 itself. Okay.

So, we graduated in December

and then, the master’s degree, they will not open

until the next June.

Okay. Then, we went and there was a our

principal, the special officer called

sir Ram Krishnan, he said

"okay, now you have completed this one,

would you be interested in teaching?"

So, I joined immediately Wow.

as an associate lecturer in mechanical engineering

in SVU College of Engineering. Okay.

I did for about 6 months.

Then, at that time, Indian Institute of Science,

Foundry Engineering was a very, very

sought after course for the students.

Under Mechanical Engineering department. Under Mechanical Engineering department.

they have... There, people were there

you know, Professor Seshadri,

I mean, who, with

whom you were there, Professor? 100,

So, I was with Professor M. N. Srinivasan.

M. N. Srinivasan. But how I went to

Bangalore is, in those days

the admissions of master’s degree,

there was no entrance exam Gate.

no gate. No gate. Nothing was there.

The only criterion is, you should be

first rank holder in the university. Wow.

Every first rank holder

if he applies, he will get it.

Elite group of the country

sitting there, wonderful!

You are one of those.

Only 10, only 10 students.

Only 10. All 10 were toppers of some university.

All. I belong to S. V. University, then, Okay.

There was the Madras University,

two people, Osmania University, one person

Banaras...like that, we were 10 people. Wonderful, wonderful.

Wow. So, that is how I went to

Indian Institute of Science, Bangalore.

The head of the, there

the foundry science was

in Mechanical Engineering department. Mechanical.

Head of the Department is

Professor A. Ramachandran.

A. Ramachandran. So, in the first day, when you go

you go and meet the head of the department.

That is the normal protocol practice.

When you enter the room, he will say,

"come in Mr. Roshan," he will say.

We will wonder, "how does he know my name,

for the, he, he did not see me

for the first time he is, he is asking."

Before we come, he reads

everybody’s etcetera etcetera.

And then, that is how I joined the foundry.

Then, Professor Seshadri

was my... Professor Seshadri, he taught me.

So, Professor Seshadri and Professor

Malur Srinivasan from

Mandyam Srinivasan. Mandyam Srinivasan.

So, I did my the masters' work

with sir Mandyam Srinivasan.

So, 2 years were over.

After... There was also one

aluminium foundry professor, K. S. S.?

Srinivasa Murthy. Murthy.

Professor, professor he was also... Srinivasa Murthy.

He also taught us.

Professor Seshan, Professor Mandyam Srinivasan, Correct, correct, correct.

Professor Seshadri. So, Professor Seshadri was...

Yes. Although, I did not do my master's,

but still he is a,

he is a wonderful teacher so, Wonderful teacher.

I was always associated. That was a

2 year programme, Professor?

2 year programme. Okay, those days it was

now, possibly, you are aware that now

master's became one and half year.

When I did my master's, it was one and half,

then again, now it came back to 2 years.

No, no, no, it was not

one and half years, it was 2 years.

So, it was 1964 and 1966.

Then, when we take the advice of the

Head of the Department, Professor A. Ramchandran,

he says, "you are a foundry engineer,

you should work in an industry."

No, no academics?

No academics etcetera.

So, then where are the jobs?

there are no jobs in...

anywhere. So, they say,

"go to Bombay, there are jobs."

We took a ticket, just took it, sat in the train,

went to Bombay, at that time

to search for a job.

So, then what happened was, then you...

No campus interviews, nothing, those days?

No campus interviews, nothing. Okay.

So, then? Now, things are all different.

Then, you should see in the newspaper

daily, in the daily in the morning,

and then, try to find out its advertisement.

Then, first I went to die casting foundry.

So, even at Indian Institute of Science,

I passed with distinction. Distinction. '

Again, I got the first rank. First rank?

In the MTech, ME. ME.

And then, I got, one person in

die casting foundry, he offered me a job.

But, it was a small shop.

Then, there is another company called

New Standard Engineering Company in Bombay.

It is a iron foundry,

with a Polish collaboration.

and then, about 400 tonnes of gray iron

and maximum weight of the casting is 20 tonnes.

So, they also make the induction furnaces.

Tagliaferi induction furnaces

and I went there and took the interview.

And they said, "okay, we will give you a job."

So, I got the job.

So, you spent just, looks like only 1 year

was it very hard job; that is what made you

come to academics immediately?

'67 you came to IIT Madras, I know. Yeah.

So, '66 to '67 just 1 year in,

That was a... in foundry?

That was due to my personal reasons.

In the sense, when I was doing my master's,

my dad passed away.

Okay, so. Sorry to hear that.

Then, what happened was, then my mother was in.

So, she was... So, you need to take care of her.

I was to, I had to take her, so she was ill.

So, 1967 my mother passed away.

So, I had to Okay.

shift my place from Bombay.

So, you came back to, closer to Andhra.

Then, what happened was,

I came down to my Kurnool

where my mother was there.

When she passed within,

I resigned my job in, in Bombay.

But, I need a job.

That is true.

So, there are, 2 openings were there.

Indian Institute of Science, Bangalore -

a lecturers' post. Okay.

And then, Indian Institute of Technology,

was a associate lecturers' post.

I applied for both of them.

And then, what happened was,

I got an interview in

Indian Institute of Science, Bangalore.

So, I was about to go over there,

but my mother was sick.

So, I said, "I will not go."

So, I... So, you missed the interview?

I missed the interview. Okay.

But. That was the... It was, it was good for me.

That was a blessing for IIT Madras.

I mean, we got you,

and it is amazing, amazing

to hear that. It was a, it was good

for me too. And then, what happened was,

I came over here,

and I attended the interview. Okay.

And then, during the interview,

Professor E. G. Ramachandran, they were there.

So, associate lecturer, Some 500 rupees

job etcetera, then they offered.

Then, they asked me, "okay, you are qualified."

Lecturer is only master’s degree,

there is no PhD requirement in those days. Requirement in those days?

So, they said, "why did you...

we had interviews recently for

the lecturers' post, Lecturers' post.

why did you not apply?" "I did not know.

So, why don't you offer me a lecturers' post?"

"No, no, no, we cannot offer, We cannot offer you...

because we advertised only for..." Well,

IIT Madras goes by advertisement.

"No, no, no, but

when the next advertisement comes, Next

advertisement. "you apply and take your chance, okay."

So, I got in 1967 September,

I got my associate lecturers' job.

I came over here,

that was the best thing that has happened to me.

And then, Professor E. G. Ramachandran

was head of the department,

he was very nice to me.

And then, one Professor Zeurn was there.

So, at that time, Germans were there, in the...all the...

I heard that, I heard that.

So, coordinate, although he is,

Professor Zeurn belongs to welding,

but still, he was in Metallurgy department.

Okay. So, he was coordinating the

Foundry activity. foundry activities, etcetera.

So, that is how I came to IIT.

So, that is how I answer your question about

how I came to IIT. That is wonderful, wonderful.

Yeah, wonderful. Was there anybody else

along with you, in the foundry area, those days?

Professor O. Prabhakar, for example,

he joined after you or much later?

No, he joined in later,

because '70...in the '67, I joined.

Then, '68 there was again,

as I told you, there was another

advertisement for lecturers.

Okay, this wass in 6 months.

I became a lecturer in '68.

Professor Prabhakar, he joined immediately, later. Okay.

By one year, one year later. So, the foundry division or

foundry research activity, or teaching

cum research activity started with you, here.

At that time, when I joined in '67,

there was no master's programme in foundry at all.

There was nothing, no,

it was all about the physical,

very strong in physical metallurgy. Very strong.

Professor Vasudevan, Professor Vasudevan... With particularly Vasudevan.

Vasudevan, Professor

E. G. R. himself. Sreenivasa Raghavan.

Professor E. G. R. himself.

They are all physical metallurgists. Correct, correct, correct.

So, but, Professor E. G. Ramachandran, he had a vision

that industrial metallurgy is... Sure, sure, sure.

I was the only person

who had a master’s degree in foundry. Sure, sure.

So, I knew the programme of

how to write the syllabus.

It is not a simple thing,

to write the syllabus for all the...

So, we started Industrial Metallurgy.

Industrial Metallurgy? MTech in Industrial Metallurgy. With the, with the 3 different.

M.Tech. ME in... ME.

In those days, master's, ME in. Okay,

No, still they used to call it as ME here. ME.

No, here, MTech. Sorry it is MTech MTech.

So, you started MTech in... MTech.

Industrial Metallurgy. Industrial metal...metal casting,

metal joining and Metal joining.

and metal forming. So, 3 divisions.

So, I was there for... You are, you are

kind of leading the. Yeah. Yeah.

metal casting... With of course, Professor E. G. Ramachandran

was the Head of the Department also.

That is how master’s degree, MTech programme

in Industrial Metallurgy was started.

But, at the BTech level also, were you

teaching casting, those days?

Of course, there was one course

called Foundry Engineering, in BTech Okay.

and, I used to take,

as soon as I came in '67,

first job that was given to me was

to teach that course.

And also, there was...industrial design also was there.

Okay, okay. So, I used to give the projects and...

But usually, in IISc you see that the

foundry area is under mechanical.

Why did that not happen here,

in IIT Madras, any...you have some ideas?

That I do not know.

Because, material science it can be, see,

So, somehow. It is a Metallurgy for some...

Metallurgy for some reason or other in

BHU or everywhere.

Even, even in Indian Institute of Science,

there is a Metallurgy department.

But, that was more academic oriented. Yeah.

Possibly, Yeah.

They thought that foundry is a

typically an industrial kind of a thing.

So. That could possibly.

Yeah mostly. Whereas,

Yeah, but is. Here it is

mostly, you know, there was a

lot of emphasis on industry

from the beginning, I heard here,

particularly, as you said,

industrial metallurgy as an MTech starting,

that itself would be

something which I...I do not think in IISC,

you can hear something of that nature.

It is all about the vision of the

heads of the department.

Because Professor A. Ramchandran

he was a heat transfer person. Ok.

So, in those days;

in those days to visualize,

so, he was always about industry.

Yes. He was always telling, "okay,

if you have a master’s degree, it's better to

serve the industry, to get... Industry.

to get the experience. Correct.

So, when I came over here,

So, '66 to '67 there was a faculty can register

as a PhD programme. PhD student.

So, I registered with Professor E. G. Ramachandran.

So, Professor A. Ramachandran was the director,

but still he used to help me.

Because, he is a heat transfer person.

My problem was, for the PhD,

thermal properties of mould materials

using the Shell moulding process. Thermal property, Shell moulding.

you will appreciate, even today,

determination of thermal properties is

extremely useful for solidification of

simulation softwares. Definitely, definitely.

So, in those days, he could visualize it.

And, Professor Seshadri,

Professor E. G. Ramachandran was my guide.

Yeah. So, he gave me a

lot of The whole microstructure

evolution depends on the

thermal properties, right. Thermal properties.

How, how fast it is cooling.

Yeah, Professor...Professor E. G. Ramachandran

really helped me with all my

PhD work etcetera. Good, good.

So, that I submitted my thesis in '71,

and then, all the... Were you, were you kind of first

PhD from the department?

Yes. I heard this.

I am the first PhD from the Metallurgy,

Metallurgy department. Wow.

You have so many distinctions.

And then, then what happened was, in '71. Wonderful.

So, there is an opportunity to...all the

faculty will be sent to Germany. Germany, okay.

So, in Germany, Geyser Institute, Aachen,

Aachen. is the premier institute in.

Correct. in Europe.

Before the second World War,

there were only two institutions,

Geyser Institute, Aachen in Germany

and Geyser Institute, Krakow in Poland.

Okay. These are the,

the best foundry research institutes.

So, It is easy from... You went there.

because it is a German collaboration,

So, I got an...it was called DAAD. DAAD.

So, German academic exchange service. DAAD correct, correct.

So, I got a this one, so.

How long was that about year or? 2 years.

2 years. It is, it is a 2 year...

Were you married by then, Professor?

I will tell you about that one also.

What happened was, '71 I went there.

Because, I submitted the thesis and left immediately.

So, my viva voce was not there.

So, you had to come back.

What happened was, in '72 my reports came,

I have to take the viva

and the same... No skype those days.

No, no skype, not only that one...

There was an advertisement for an

assistant professors' post.

Okay. You cannot apply for assistance professor post

unless you have a PhD.

Submission of a thesis

is not equivalent of a PhD. So, you have to Is not equivalent.

complete your viva, okay. I have to complete my viva.

Then only I will be considered. You can apply for a PhD.

I can be considered, it can be absentia.

You do not have to be. You can be absentia. Yeah, it can be in absentia.

So, what I did was, I flew.

from Germany. Yeah.

Just to take the viva voce

examination. Just for a week. Just for a week or so.

At that time I met my wife. Good.

So, we had our engagement at that time. Wonderful. Wonderful.

Then, '72. It was '72

Then, I went back again. Went back again.

There was a, there was a...

the interview for the assistant professors',

I was promoted to be

assistant professor. So, no, not even a telephonic interview?

No. It was just in absentia?

they just looked at your CV.

Yeah. And then, based on the CV.

Yeah, because I was already there

so there is, so, I became an assistant professor. So. Okay.

I became an associate professor in a similar fashion.

Yeah. At IIT Kharagpur.

Ok. So, in absentia, I was in Japan

doing something there.

Ok, nice to hear, Professor.

And then, then '73, I came back. '73

you came back. We got married in

in '73. '73.

And the next day, was my convocation.

My marriage was there on 9th,

10th was the convocation here. Okay.

So, we flew.

So, you both flew, okay.

And then. Then, I got the... Okay.

At that time, Professor Pandalai was the

Ok, so you got your PhD degree.

Director and then, Wonderful.

She was also there. Wonderful.

So, '73 I got my PhD. Then, I was busy because

I learnt quite a lot.

My experience in Aachen. In Aachen.

Very good. Was so...sand, there...

there I worked with the sand. Sand?

So, Professor Zeurn helped me.

Professor E. G. Ramachandran and Professor Zeurn, they helped

to set up a laboratory, so. Okay.

My laboratories in sand testing were the best

People always talk about you. Yeah so

in those days. When somebody talks about

Professor Roshan, it is sand.

Sand, so I was a consultant, so. You were seem to be a

stalwart in sand. Yeah.

Sand, because I learnt quite a lot

about sand. Yeah.

So, I was knowing

very much about sand. Sand is a...

sand also is a basic raw material for making the castings. Okay.

So, sand has to be extremely

pure in order to make those things.

So, I started my PhD students.

Okat, that is my start of PhD students, because

Okay. you cannot guide a student unless

you have a PhD. You have a PhD.

So, '73 obviously, I have PhD. Okay.

Then I had some...later on about 20 people

got their PhDs and did their... Did they Professor O.P. also

do PHD with you? No.

No, no, both of us did with

Professor E. G. Ramachandran, okay. Professor E. G. R. Okay, good.

So, then the '73, '73 to

'77, I was very busy working.

My wife looked after my house.

So, I was with my students.

So, my students were extremely good.

Day and night we were working etcetera.

So, quite a number of papers were

getting published and the students got them.

'77, there were again

interviews for the professors', professors' post.

Professors' post. Must be very young by that time, 35?

34, I was the youngest. 34, youngest professor.

I was the youngest.

Yes. One of the youngest professors.

Wonderful wonderful. Maybe the youngest professor.

Now, it is tough.

34 is not easy to become a professor here,

usually it happens between 40 and 45, or so.

I was 39 when I became a professor,

that itself was considered, in Kharagpur, very early.

Yeah. Good to hear that. So, 34.

And then, what happened was I applied for

the Alexander von Humboldt Fellowship.

Wonderful. So, I got a junior.

very, very prestigious fellowship.

fellowship I got and I had to go.

And then, my interviews are there.

So, I got my letter of professorship

In June. That you are selected for the ?

And next week I left for Germany.

And because of, I was, I am a professor,

so, they gave me senior fellowship; they upgraded.

Upgraded. My fellowship from

this one... Junior to senior.

Senior fellow, alexander.

Where were you, you are again in Aachen? University of Karlsruhe, here.

Karlsruhe, yeah. No I went to University of

Karlsruhe. Karlsruhe with Professor Makarav.

So, '77 to '78, I was there.

One and half years, although, 2 years, I came back.

So, '78 we came back.

As soon as I came back, Professor Narayanmurthi

was the director. Headship is waiting for you, I heard.

So, he called me one day, "you want to

take the headship?" "Of course."

Then, Professor Srinivas Raghavan was the

Head of the Department. Previous Head of the Department?

So, I became in '78.

And, '78 to '82, it was a pleasure.

It was a pleasure. Wonderful.

Not that is it was a...

wonderful experience for me

Correct. to lead the department.

and Head of the Departments'

job is very interesting.

You have got...you can do quite a lot of

Correct, correct. contribution.

So, that is the period. Can you can you just

recall a few major contributions that came

from you as the Head of the Department,

in the department?

We organized several seminars.

One of the seminars was an international seminar

Very good. with Professor Krishna Shastri on solidification

heat transfer, so.

Very good. We invited from all over the world.

Good.

There was a

metal processing seminar,

that is one of the contributions.

And I also, I feel very glad, one of my contribution is

Metallurgy seminar hall.

I just heard of that. Metallurgy seminar hall was

I believe, was my...

I did, I took a good decision to convert.

Yeah. Because, the ground floor

we had to, there was no seminar hall, we used to

True, true, true. organize any meetings

etcetera. Any meeting, any lectures for

visitors. So, Head of the Department,

Major contribution, very important

contribution. Head of the Department has the resources.

And then, he had the power, so True.

one lecture hall was converted.

It is a good decision, I believe.

So, that Yeah, we are all really enjoying that.

Yeah. Of course, you may be possibly aware

that, soon in about four, five months from now,

most probably March - April,

we will be moving

from the Mechanical Sciences block

to a new academic complex,

where we have been provided with

two floors. It is a five storey building,

where two floors are dedicated to Metallurgy.

So, all the, most of the facilities

from MSB, we will be moving there

including all the faculty members.

We have about thirty faculty rooms there,

four visiting faculty rooms,

things like that and

seminar hall, we may have to part with.

So, just...s,o next year if you

come, you would come to another seminar hall,

not to MSB 104 anymore.

That would belong to Applied Mechanics now.

So, Applied Mechanics do not have

enough space and they are also

growing in a big way.

So, the institute decided that MSB, that

part they will give it to Applied Mechanics

and then, we move to a new building.

Another contribution is,

ability to attract good faculty

to the department - Professor Padmanabhan.

He joined during your time? Yeah.

When I was the... Wonderful.

Who are the other faculty during your time?

Who joined as faculty?

S. K. Seshadri

Okay. Another Stalwart.

Yeah, yeah. Corrosion.

Yeah, yeah. Everybody knows.

Yeah he was, he was there.

Very good. So,

so, we had... it was a good this one -

attracting the good faculty and

then provide and also,

the building...the

infrastructure inside the True, true.

Department. You used to also work with a lot of

foundry industries here?

Another contribution, I believe is,

we had a system of external registration from industry.

Okay. So, I had

one Dr. Seshadri, M. S. Seshadri

From India Pistons. India pistons.

So, he is the chief metallurgist, so, Correct, correct.

he did his PhD with me.

And then, when I was

doing my master's, my engineering...

How I went to Indian Institute of Science is,

my metallurgy...the the person who taught me

metallurgy, Professor Rangaswami,

he did his master's in

Indian Institute of Science. Indian Institute of Science.

He only told us. Correct.

It is very difficult to get into this.

So, our interest was...that is how

I went to Indian Institute of Science. True, true, true.

And, Professor Rangaswami. That was my dream, when I was

doing my undergrad also.

And, Professor Rangaswami, he was a;

he was a professor, but he

wanted to become a head of the...the PhD.

So, he did his PhD with me.

My teacher, Okay.

became my student. Your

teacher became your student, very strange. So,

that was... Yeah, very unique

opportunity you had.

That was very nice. And later on, That is great, that is great.

another two of my classmates from

Your BTech Engineering. University College of Engineering,

they also got their PhD with me. With you.

And then, from Ennore Foundries.

Ennore Foundries. Now, I think, it is called Hinduja Foundry.

Correct. Ennore Foundries, so

there... one of my student, is now working there. Yeah.

Two people, Dr. Venkoba Rao,

so, he did his PhD with me.

Very good, very good .And, Dr. Janagan,

so, he did his PhD. Totally about 20 people

did their PhD with me. Wonderful, wonderful.

So, that was a good industrial

That's true, that's true. relationship.

Yeah. I heard, So.

for quite some time, people used to say

that you brought a very good industrial

phase to the department.

Yeah. Particularly in the foundry area.

Yeah. That is amazing.

Another major contribution is...

it is very difficult to deal with magnesium.

So. So, my student from...we had a

very good relationship with the DRDL,

Defence Research and Development. Correct.

So, one of my student, Dr. Sundarajan,

who was the who did his master's here.

He did his project work with me.

He became a scientist in DRDL. DRDL.

So, he wanted to do his PhD, PhD.

on a magnesium alloys. Very good.

At that time, Dr. Abdul Kalam

was the director of Okay.

DRDL. DRDL.

Later on, of course, a Air Vice

Marshal. Narayanan, also Ok

was there. They were all interested in

magnesium, because Wonderful, wonderful.

it is very difficult to import

Very good. magnesium

alloys. Plus, Very good. True.

at that time, they were developing Prithvi.

Prithvi, they wanted

Prithvi. a lighter one.

It is a magnesium...

Correct. case is a magnesium casting.

So, I was a consultant to DRDL.

So, they took me to...

Incidentally, Sunderajan, later

became director of NIT Trichy. I know, I know.

I am in touch, I am in touch.

Now, recently actually, Dr. C. G. K. Nayar,

who was also a student from here,

who was the chairman of HAL, he is talking of

starting a big, you know,

initiative on magnesium,

because magnesium, somehow,

slowly died down in India.

So, the particularly, not just the

casting of magnesium,

but the extractive metallurgy of magnesium,

and then taking it in a big way because,

both aerospace and also automotive industry are

thinking in a big way

to bring magnesium into their, you know, components.

So, so, I think, your initial contributions

are going to be useful now. Yeah.

So, I was very happy.

Good, good . One day,

I stayed in Hyderabad

for 10 days. At DRDL,

in the in their campus until Very good.

the casting is poured and

everything, so. Very good, very good.

That, I believe is

my, I was very happy to be associated Wonderful, wonderful.

with that project for the Prithvi.

So, that was the... Okay,

but at some stage you moved to US, I heard?

Yeah. Okay.

So, when was this, Professor?

What happened was,

I knew for the industry to be, this one,

ISO 9000 is very important.

So, I had

an Industrial Consultants Centre.

So, at that time, Professor Raju was the

Dean of the Okay.

Industrial Consultancy also.

So, to get a auditor certification,

So, you have to

pay about 20000 rupees in those days, okay. Okay.

So, I requested whether I can use my

industrial consultancy money...my own this...

So, he said, "you can go to Delhi."

So, I went there, to Delhi

to get certified

Certified. as an ISO 9000 auditor.

Auditor. Okay, I am, I am a lead auditor.

So, you are a lead auditor. Lead auditor course.

So, that is this one.

Okay. Plus, I also had,

at that time, solidification simulation,

I had my small packages etcetera.

So, I used to go to US

to present my papers etcetera. Yeah, in conferences.

So, one of my friends,

when he came over here,

just gave me a resume,

just to see whether there is an opportunity.

Before that, actually, I

applied to one University in Canada.

Okay. I had an offer, okay, to go,

but, meanwhile, Maynard Steel Casting Company,

they were looking for a person

Okay. Who is familiar with solidification

simulation software. Simulation

Plus, they have also wanted

an ISO 9000 auditor skills.

I had both of them. Okay.

So, just I, so I took 2 years of sabbatical,

Okay. in those days. So, I took the sabbatical

and... Which year was that?

1993. So, '93, okay.

1993, we went there

and then, So, 26 years after you joined here.

Yeah. Okay.

And then, after I went there,

so, my children were there...

so, they wanted to stay over there. Stay, yeah.

So, then. So, I retired So.

so, in 1995. Okay.

I retired. And then, so, After 2 years of sabbatical.

stay...stay put over there in the...

I was a director of quality.

Now, I have been the chief metallurgist

for the last 5 years. Yeah.

My wife also works with me.

Okay. So, and so, she develops

all the documentation for

So now, it is about 25 years ISO 9000.

Yeah, yeah . you have been there?

So, what was the major difference

that you found when compared to the industry

here and the industry there? Yeah,

what I notice is,

the industries remain the same, but

from the academic if you want to see,

especially in steel...

Here, metal casting and metal joining. Steel

metal joining is a part of casting.

Yes. There is nothing like metal joining

separate and metal casting.

So, and heat treatment. Heat treatment.

So, as a chief metallurgist, my job is...

one third is to specifications.

Specification, specification, specifications, that is it.

The second one is, metal joining.

Metal joining. Even, how to get a

qualified procedure.

That itself is a... Correct.

we do not teach in academic. Today, True, true.

if I were to be a professor,

I believe, it will be slightly...I will design a

programme in such a way,

ideally suited for the industry.

So, metal casting programme. Metal casting.

So, incorporate metal joining

Metal joining. and teach specifications.

Specifications, ASTM specifications. Sure.

They didn't specifications...it is all about specifications.

And then, heat treatment.

Heat treatment here is a as a separate, as a

Metal casting. Heat treatment is a separate,

it is all about heat treatments. Steel is nothing but

Obviously, obviously. heat treatment.

So, that is the. And of course, now

now with the industry in

US, the only thing is,

we have to make money, thats it. Yeah.

They do not care

who you are, what, as long as you generate

wealth. Correct, correct.

You generate wealth only if you can

help the company to make money. Make money.

So, you should have the skills of Of

how to help the company... Making quality product.

good quality products. And then, less defects.

Less defects. More productivity, yeah,

and more like that.

You raised this...

that is one of the things -

productivity is the key.

Key, productivity and... Obviously.

You may not know, many people, many industries,

do not even have the metrics of

how to define the productivity, okay.

Many people just - man hours per tonne.

So, that itself, there is a

quite a lot of scope. You may not believe,

that on average,

US industry or any industry lose

about 5 to 10 percent of their revenue

in quality cost. Quality cost, yeah.

It is a enormous amount.

In a 30 billion dollar industry, it is about Correct.

three billion per year. Three billion per year.

that is amazing. So, I made a

presentations and publications etcetera,

how to improve the productivity?

So, I am also, I used to teach

Six Sigma... You are also associated with

some academic institutions there in US?

I am an adjunct professor in

University of Wisconsin, Milwaukee. Okay.

Okay, I work one day in a week. I work

4 days in this one, 4 days in the industry.

So. And, 1 day in...

So, so what happened was,

the MagmaSoft, I have been using

for the last 25 years.

So, the president of MagmaSoft said,

"I will give 5 licences, each."

Licence cost 80000 dollars.

So, he gave 5 licences to UWM,

and said, "Roshan, teach us

the solidification." Okay.

So, that is how I went there.

So, I teach solidification simulation

for the graduate students

and undergraduate students and also,

the software, I maintain. Simulation software.

and then, I also assist the students for...

advisor for PhD students.

So, I have a student working on

fracture toughness of low alloy steels

using in mining industry.

Wonderful. There is another project also,

I help is, surface alloying.

Laser surface alloying,

particularly? No, it is not a laser surface.

See, the valve bodies

are generally WCV castings, plain carbon steel.

But, when a water flows,

corrosion is a major issue.

Stainless steel is very expensive. Very expensive.

So, is it possible to surface alloy?

Surface alloy. So, we are

working with...almost we are successful,

using casting process. Oh, okay.

In the sense, we take a course

and then apply,

taking a regular wash

and put nickel powder, chromium powder

and those things etcetera, Alloys.

and then cast it.

Cast. So, it will absorb only on the surface.

It is only on the surface, very good.

So hydro, how to change the

hydrophobicity of this one?

Very good. So Botany, so I asked,

because, how to create a hydrophobic surface. Surface.

So, I asked my wife one day this one etcetera.

So, you know the leaves? Yeah, yeah

Lotus leaves etcetera? Now, it is a big,

Nanotechnology that is a big thing. Yeah.

People talk of self cleaning.

For example, on these glasses

people do what is called, we work

to some extent, Nano Titania coatings

for bringing super hydrophobicity

on surfaces. This is the another new area.

Yeah. Good.

So, another contribution which I

made to US foundry industry is,

when I went there,

my daughter is a

Lotus nNotes specialist.

So, before going itself,

I was working on expert systems over here.

Okay. I had my students working on expert systems.

So, then I went to American foundry society,

I used my expert system using Lotus Notes.

And then, they were very much impressed.

So, in 2001, they gave me

award of scientific merit

based upon my work on

Very good. expert systems. This one.

Expert systems. And, later on,

I was working, my son...

so, he is an IT.

So, he developed a

learning management system

for American Foundry Society.

Online courses, I started

using his... Ok. very good very good.

So, then, they were impressed.

So, they gave me

the go AFS gold medal, the highest

award of AFS, in 2006. Foundry Society.

Very good. As a gold medal...

And also, CMI Director’s award,

in the same year.

So, two awards I got from...so.

So, you also contributed a lot to

teaching through online courses.

Online courses. So. Very good.

They are very popular I heard. They are, so.

Good. Those are the my contributions to the

US foundry industry.

But, I believe, my

major contribution to the...

my profession, is my invention of my steel foam. Yeah.

So, I got. You were talking about

it in the morning? Yeah, I got my patent in April, 2017.

Last year, last year . Yeah.

and it has got enormous amount of applications in

both in the defence, the naval, army

True. and structures.

Having worked in aluminium foams, I know.

Everybody was waiting,

someone to make a steel foam. Yeah.

And, that is going to

really remarkably change

Yeah. the whole field. Yeah.

So now, my intent is how to see...

now, that I have got the materials,

now, how to have the components

made use of.

Correct, correct. Because, I

I would like to see this

material is extensively used in

industry for the benefit of... Ok.

it will save the millions of Particularly, defense.

lives. It is a, it's a lifesaving material. Correct, correct.

So, the only thing is, they have to use it.

So, so my students also are working.

On. Armour plates

all those things, you know. Yeah, armour plates to

Correct. using

simulation. We did some work recently,

and using a Nano, you know steel we call it as...

where you refine the microstructure

through heat treatment.

Of course, thermo mechanical processing,

bring a Nano Bainitic kind of structure,

and improve the fracture definite to such an extent,

that it becomes like,

a much better bullet proof material

in terms of shock absorption, energy absorption.

So, so, you are trying to do it with

foam, that is amazing. Yeah.

Very good. So, they there is no limitation to the

steel material. I can make in any material, Correct.

starting from the hardness of

140 BHN up to 500 BHN. Wonderful.

Wonderful. We can have up to even

50 percent of the

lighter weights. It is not only has,

people have been aiming at lightweight steel

Obviously, obviously. for the energy, but it has got

both lightweight but also energy absorption.

True. Not only energy absorption, but also the

sound, sound absorption. Yeah, yeah. And also, automotive industry is also, also...

is amazingly going to use it. Very good. Yeah.

So. And, I heard that you can also make it graded?

It is a gradient.

You can in the industry. Density also. On one side, solid.

Very good. And, in the other side, the foam.

So, we are also now trying to roll it.

Uses a lot of structural stability also. Yeah.

Yeah. That will be very good.

Anything which requires a bending strength,

because this has got a higher stiffness in bending,

so, this is a

very useful material for the

benefit of the... Now, that you have been associated for

almost 5 decades with foundry industry,

how did foundry industry change

in India and in US? How do you,

from your own eyes,

do you see a major change

the way people used to do foundry, for example?

One thing is the development of simulation

software has become,

the so called e-foundry,

now people talk about, right?

Not... Lot of softwares?

Software, but the only thing is, again,

I did my thermal properties in 1970.

Even today, that is one of the limitations.

Okay. All the softwares, there are many software companies.

You need to give inputs

to the softwares. Now, how do you know

the thermal properties? What they have?

Which they have used? So,

there, there is always a scope for improvement. Yeah.

So, there is where now. You need somebody to measure

these thermal properties, so that

you can give them as input parameters.

Input parameters. Correct.

See, even liquidous and solidous temperatures, Yeah

that is an important. New alloys, that you are developing. How do you know that they acquiring? Yeah.

How do you know the density? Correct.

In order to, just measuring the density.

So, that will be a

wonderful research programmes.

True, true, true, true. Evening, I will be telling you about

what all research can be. Energies.

Research can be...

Even surface energies. Even, all, so many things.

Surface energy is another major issue. Yeah.

Yeah So that is... But, one thing is, still, I believe,

industries still have not figured it out - how to

reduce the defects?

Defects, yeah. Because, the process variables..

Are too many. Too many possibilities. So, we have to...

Need to control measurement. Measurement.

So, the other thing is, which

I always, somehow, I work

in the in the UWM, I am a

IBM industrial advisory member.

Very good. So,

there is an academic initiative member.

My daughter is IBM business partner.

So, so introduce me to IBM SBSS Modeller.

Now, all, it depends upon data.

Big data, people talk. Correct.

So, in foundry industry,

one of the weaknesses is,

we are not a data centric industry, still.

True, true, true. To the extent what is needed.

So, what we require is,

how to collect the, how to collect the data.

And then, use the data. Now, people are Use the data.

talking of artificial intelligence, neural networks.

So, that also can play a significant role in foundry also.

Exactly. How

can you predict the

properties of a material? Property correct.

Neural networks. Correct.

And the Sometime back,

decision trees. long back, one of my student worked on

grain size prediction using neural networks,

based on a lot of data that we generate.

So, when you do inoculation

for a given amount of, inoculation for a

known alloy that you are putting in,

what is the grain size? Can we predict it

without doing an experiment?

Yeah. So, that.

So, I am developing a course on

Predictive Analytics in

Manufacturing using IBM SBSS Model.

Actually, on December 23rd,

I am giving a webinar for AFS

Okay. on Predictive Analytics in

Metal Casting Industry.

Fantastic! Wonderful, wonderful. So,

that is, I believe, it's going to be the future.

In US also, this foundry industry has

changed significantly, do you think?

There is a major change?

Yeah, there is a major change

and since, they have got reduced...

If you compare the foundry is...

I will tell you my own...the

US, it is all about caster production

and selling price. Correct.

So, it is all about global economy. So,

if you find that,

somewhere else it is easier to cast

or make the component, make it cheaper, Make it cheaper.

so, you go there. If the same component,

anywhere in the world,

you can get it cheaper and same quality...

Same quality. Same quality, obviously. Same quality.

then they will go.

So, but. For example, in Chennai

you would possibly know that, we have Hyundai

plant, we have, we have Ford.

My ford car is made in Chennai.

So, like that, you have

so many of these industries coming to India

also, for one of these reasons, possibly, caster production. So,

So, in US labour costs are high.

That is okay. I heard that.

So, you cannot compete with...

so, the only thing is, you have to be

on the forefront of the technology. Technology.

So, only the.

Value addition, somehow. Value addition

especially, that is why we say, you

be good in data collection

and reduce the

reduce the quality costs, Reduce the .

then only you can make money, but. True, true.

In our company, we make

large...for the mining machinery,

large cast gears and quality etcetera.

I do not think other people

will be able to have the same amount of a skills.

Whatever said and done,

certain things cannot be learnt

only by books. It is by... True.

True, true, true, true. So, with a 100 year old company,

myself 20 - 25 years

working in steel,

we have so much amount of

personal knowledge about the materials,

so that is very difficult to have... True.

So, you may have money to buy the equipment, True.

but, you do not have the people

who have the skills or the knowledge Skills, yes.

to make the cast. Even,

if you see all the specifications,

specifications are drawn by

mechanical engineers.

Those are the people who

put the specifications.

Our job as the foundry engineer is

to make a component with defect free,

with the properties as the designer has intended.

Now, the question is,

how does the designer

put those specifications? Fracture toughness

was not a specification would bw

Earlier. put on the drawing earlier,

but now it is slowly coming up.

There is a... Now, let us comeback to IIT Madras.

You have been visiting IIT Madras,

at least once in a year, once in 2 years.

Do you see a significant change

from your time to now,

in terms of, let us say...

The only this... what I could see is,

Teaching or research...any,

any one of these fronts,

do you see a significant change?

Like, people like you, who have been

working on nano material,

I do not think, at that time

we had... Yeah, this area was not known.

we had people. So, you have at least

you have, started a new area. True, true. New areas.

For some reason, other than in India,

the foundry courses are not... Yes.

We do not know, same thing in US also.

For example, in Madison,

earlier it was one of the best, but

it is not there.

True, true, true. It depends upon the people.

So, new areas come up, old areas...

it all depends upon demand and... Demand.

Yeah. Whereas, somehow, foundry industry

has not been recruiting many people,

so, slowly, you know, it's

a little come down, that is true.

And more people are now going

more into, as I was telling you, e-foundry.

So now, we have courses where

you demonstrate or you

do through simulation do a

casting experiment rather than doing a

real casting experiment.

So, our classes also,

we introduce that to some extent.

So, that students are also excited to see.

But then, But, eventually...

what industry requires is, still, I believe,

there is enormous amount of a The skilled people?

skill is required. Skill.

How to make a good casting

with good properties? There is always a scope,

and there not many people,

there are not many people who are knowledgeable

Definitely . in steel metal cast, steel metallurgy.

True, true, true. Yeah.

Where are your students? Now, I mean,

do any of them who have become some

stalwarts anywhere like the way you are?

For example, Sundarajan is a good example. Yeah, yeah.

A wonderful example. So, he was the... Correct

And then, Dr. Venkoba Rao was there.

So, and then, Dr. Seshadri

he was and this one etcetera. Seshadri also, possibly,

He is retired now.

He was retired. Yeah, I think.

Dr. Venkoba Rao sir Dr. There is one more

gentlemen in India Pistons by name Gopal,

who keeps on talking about you and all. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I know him very well, yeah.

He is also a very senior member Yeah, yeah, yeah.

but, he remembers you so well Yeah, yeah.

There is another Gopal was there, who was in TVS.

TVS, yeah. TVS, yes.

He also got his PhD with me, you know. Correct, correct, correct.

Even there is one

gentleman by name Mahadevan,

who also talks a lot about you. Yeah, yeah, Mahadevan also.

So, we gave them...because, when I was here,

we developed a squeeze casting...

this one, so they took the... Correct, correct, correct.

So, do you also remember your campus life here?

How was it? I was telling my wife...

We thoroughly enjoyed our campus life.

OATs on Saturdays we used to go. OAT Saturday movies, yeah.

It was very nice, yeah . Nobody can forget.

It was a very nice this... Wonderful, wonderful.

And, your children grew here or?

Mostly. I have 2, I have 2 children. My

daughter completed her...in Vanavani.

Vanavani. And,

also, I was the Chairman of the

Vanavani School School.

between '82 and '84,

after I became my.

After Headship. Head of the Department.

'82 to '84. '84.

I was the Chairman of the Vanavani School.

That is a wonderful experience. Good.

Yeah. That is an excellent school.

Good, good, good. Any message that you have

to the younger people? About foundry

or in general about academics?

Yeah, the only thing which I tell all my

students is, corporations

do not hire you for what you know,

we hire you for what we need.

Yes, definitely. So, your degree is only a necessary condition

for employment, but not a sufficient condition. Sufficient condition.

So, what you need to know is,

you need to figure it out

what we require in foundry.

In foundry. What do you...We require

just the metallurgical background, Correct.

good metallurgical background.

And, the next one is, you require the

heat treatment background

and then, you require

the industrial engineering background.

Correct. And then, even cast accounting.

Cast accounting is extremely important.

So, all the skills you need to have.

Somehow, you have to develop these.

Yeah. They may not be taught in the actual classroom,

Yeah. so, but, one has to develop

to really become successful.

In order to...so those are the skills...

So, it just not the. And then, Yeah.

why mechanical engineering better Metallurgy?

Mechanical engineers generally they will

know little more about

how to read the drawings, okay.

The drawings. Yes, that is true.

Although, now they all the CAD packages have

come. But still, Yeah.

in foundry, you should be able to read the drawing. Correct, correct.

So, those skills.

So, foundry is actually a blend of

both mechanical and metallurgical engineering.

So, it is not only either metallurgical . Yeah, yeah. Definitely, definitely.

or mechanical. Definitely, definitely.

Heat treatment is a part of this. Very good, very good.

You will be surprised, to get one

welding... it'ss extremely important,

but you cannot underestimate... Yeah, definitely, definitely.

To get one procedure qualified,

it may cost about 3000 to 5000 dollars.

Just procedure qualification.

Wonderful. And, I cannot touch my casting with a weld rod

unless, I have got a qualified procedure

Procedure for the welding. Correct. for the welding.

Thank you Professor,

it was wonderful meeting you.

And very nice that you have been able to share

your experience in, not only in IIT Madras, but also

your 25 years of experience, overseas.

And, this is amazing to talk to you,

a stalwart like you.

Thank you, Professor.

You are welcome.

I wish to thank you, Professor Murty.

No, we should thank you. I wish to thank Mamata,

and Mr.Kumaran, The whole Heritage group.

Mr. Rajaraman for giving me this opportunity

to be with you today,

thank you very much. Thank you sir.

Contribute
to the Centre
Monetary
Support
Digital
Material

< Back

Prof. V.S. Raju in conversation with Prof. V.G. Idichandy (Video Conference)

I was born in rural Andhra Pradesh in a very small village

and where we had only a primary school

and went to high school in the neighbouring village.

And those days you know

even to have a pair of chappals are the luxury.

Correct.

So, I tell my grandchildren that

I got my first chappals at the age of 8

and probably that was the most happiest

time, one of the most happy times of my life.

I used to a very proud with walking with those chappals.

Then, I did intermediate in the neighbouring town,

about 5 kilometers or so from our village.

So, first year intermediate I used to cycle there and

second year stayed in a rented room.

And after intermediate,

I was not qualified immediately to join engineering

because of the minimum age criteria they had.

In those days, you should have a minimum age to join

and then I was I think when I finished my

intermediate, I was only a 14, so very young.

So, then fortunately, what happen is that

Andhra University College of Engineering,

that we are only the relaxed age.

So, it was informed to me by one of my seniors

that there is an age relaxation and

I immediately applied and got admission

into College of Engineering Andhra University.

This is in Vizag?

College of Engineering Andhra University.

This is in Vizag or where is it?

It is in Vizag, it is in Vizag, it is in Vizag. Alright,

Ok, sir.

Then, my father who was a farmer,

who got educated only up to class 5,

his dream was that his son should pass high school.

So, that was his dream he could not think higher than that.

So, he put in lot of effort

in motivating me to study well in school.

For example, he used to wake me up at 4 in the morning

and with a kerosene lamp

you know it's all dark around and you are afraid,

so he used to sit next to me

and so that I can study without fear.

Ok.

So, that training

helped me to focus on studies and then it became very easy.

So, I was privileged to top my school in high,

for high school and then

then go for intermediate and then get admission to

College of Engineering Andhra University.

And then after his bachelor, my father being a farmer,

for them a irrigation supervisor, our overseer, is a big man.

Ok.

So, he was very keen that I should join the Irrigation Department.

Government. The government.

And I got an offer also

to join the Irrigation Department.

But I met one Colonel, Military Engineering Services,

who is introduced, who was introduced to me through somebody,

then when he saw my academic record

he said joining MBA or

government department is not for you.

Your academic background is very good, so you should go for a master's.

So, my father was not in agreement with that

because he and he also said he cannot support me,

with Master’s degree that would be difficult.

But then I said there are some scholarships available.

Ok.

So, anyway finally, I convinced him and

went to Indian Institute of Science, Bangalore

Yeah.

for my master's.

Then you know that time there were 3 different programmes

in structural engineering, in hydraulics and in

geotechnical or not, those days we used to call it soil mechanics.

The soil mechanics programme was to 9 months plus

6 months of practical training.

Ok.

Whereas, the other programs were 1 and a half

years plus 6 months of practical training.

So, because this is a shorter program,

Ok. So I chose soil mechanics.

Ok. And then,

but unfortunately the criterion they adopted

for scholarships was also the mean.

So, in the interview when one of the faculty

member asked me what did your father does,

If I told him in agriculture and then we own 10 acres of land I told him.

So, then he said 10 acres is a lot of land.

So, that means, you are a rich farmer.

Your father is a rich farmer.

Ok.

So, that he did'nt give me the scholarship,

so that was very hard.

Then afterwards I met the head of the department and explained to him.

Then he was very kind and then he found some

40 rupees per month scholarship

instead of 150 rupees that was a.

Ok. Anyway somehow I managed

and a friend of mine

who was on leave from Banaras Hindu University

to study the master's attaining a degrees of science,

he told me that there is a faculty position vacant,

lecturer’s position vacant in Banaras Collage.

So, I applied and then got an interview

and then afterwards got selected as lecturer.

Ok.

So, that is how I started my teaching career

at Banaras Hindu University.

And then because I finished school early by jumping classes

then I was only 19 plus when I started as a lecturer.

Yeah.

So, that was a scary experience

because I was asked to teach final year classes.

Ok.

And among the students were older than me.

So, in the class.

And then, they used to make fun of me

when I turn to the board to write,

then we had a very well-known picture

starred by Raj Kapoor in those days

and there is a very famous song, Raju mera naam.

Ok. So, they sing that song.

So, that is how I started my academic career.

Maybe I will stop here, maybe you have some

something to ask about what I have said.

Ok sir.

Sir, ok

BHU was your first teaching assignment.

Yes.

Then, you went for doctorate programme to Germany.

Yes.

As you did it in Karlsruhe the University, University of Karlsruhe you know.

Yeah, that's correct.

Ok.

Why why did you choose Germany?

Because.

Yes.

Probably that was the time U.S.

education must you know many people

you know went to U.S. ,

I think probably in your contemporary age, but why why Germany?

Yes, yes. So, is there your some

special motivation for selecting?

See, while at Banaras I saw an advertisement

in the papers about the German Government Scholarships.

Ok.

So, I said why not I apply?

I didn't know much about Germany in those days.

Ok.

But anyway I thought that

the fact that they are offering scholarships for Indian students,

so it must be interesting.

And then you know what is another interesting fact is that

I just thought that what will they ask me in the interview?

I felt that because this scholarships were open

I thought that what will they ask me,

then I felt that they will definitely ask me why I want to go to Germany.

Just like you asked why I went to Germany.

Then I was looking for an explanation for this question

and then I was looking for literature to to identify a professor

in Germany with whom I want to go on.

Then, those days Germans were not publishing in English journals,

but with great difficulty I found

the one article by a professor by name Schrute,

he is from University of Aachen.

Ok.

So, when I went for the interview

promptly they asked me why do you want to go to Germany?

So, then I said I want to work with Professor

Schrute in University of Aachen.

I could see in the face of the people especially in the German

person who was sitting there he was so happy

because he didn't expect me to know

the name of the professor and the place I want to go.

Ok.

Then, I already knew that I am

going to be selected because

from the response because they cant ask technical questions,

because there are 25 scholarships for all branches,

including science, arts, engineering, medicine, everything like that.

Ok.

So, that was an experience.

So, I got selected.

So, then I just went.

And we are all taken by a ship in those days you know.

Yes. We went from Bombay to Marseille and then from Marseille in France.

Ok.

We were driven by bus that to your place,

the way be attended as German language course.

Ok.

4 months.

That was very interesting.

So, then, so you learn German

and its a very intensive training.

So, the nobody these teachers won't speak to you in English at all,

even though they know English.

So, they make you.

So, after 4 months even though I wanted to,

I suggested, I said I want to go to Aachen, University of Aachen.

Because another person from CSR was already selected for Aachen.

Ok.

They sent me to Karlsruhe.

Ok.

Which started out because Karlsruhe Institute was bigger,

more activity and the professor was very well known

Professor Loy (Incoherent).

Later he became the German Minister for Science and Technology.

Ok.

Very famous man.

And of course, he was also the

a director or the president of the university

and he was also president of the directors conference and

president of the scientific and advisory committee to the German 216

government and so on and so forth.

He was a member of the CDU or SPD?

No, not at all.

He was very difficult to see him at the first place.

So, I went to the institute and then

the number two person, Professor Glinde,

who was literally running the institute,

he received me and then they showed me a place, a room, my room

and showed me the library and the lab and here you are.

Ok.

So, they won't tell you anything what do you do

or anything like that, you have to signify out.

So, that was a new experience for me because

in India we everybody here guided you know.

Correct that's correct.

Then everybody is busy, nobody is talking to you

and then nobody told me what are the timings.

So, then I figured out myself coming very early

to find out that the first person used to come at 6 in the morning.

Wow.

To the institute, and the last person was

probably leaving the institute by 9 in the evening.

So, those days Germany was in the process of building up

and they were really working very hard.

Actually, the week was 6 and half days a week.

So, including the Sunday mornings

we used to go out.

So, that was very good for me because there was

alot of work being done.

And then quickly to conclude always then

very important thing has happened that

in month or so, I was

allowed to see the professor.

Then, I told him in my broken German that is

saying sir I want to do Ph.D.,

then he said Mr. Raju Ph.D. it will take 6 years here.

And before you can do Ph.D., you must learn the practice of

geotechnical engineering or foundational engineering.

Then, I told him, sir, I am already on leave and have a job

and they will not give me 6 years leave that won't be possible.

Then, he took pity on me and said I will make an exception.

You find a topic for research

and convince me that the topic is worth

doing research for a Ph.D.

So, the entire responsibility was on me.

So, after 4 months, I informed the Indian that I am now

have a topic for research

and then I have written something together, first

in English and then took somebody’s help to translate it to German.

Then, they said professor is too busy to read that.

So you have to give an seminar.

Ok.

So, the seminar was arranged

and I was and that seminar was to be given in German.

So, it was very tough

and I was also not very clear about the topic.

And then I was reading instead of speaking.

Ok.

And the whole thing took one and half hours.

So, at the end of one and half hours the professor stood up and said

Mr. Raju, a seminar is given for 30 minutes

and then he walked out from the room.

So, I knew that that my seminar was a disaster.

So, I went to my room and then

literally cried because you are in a

strange country, no friends and what to do?

Then, I continued my efforts

and then looking at and the work done earlier in the institute,

the publications and all that, then I said I am

probably now ready that was about 10 months after I have been there.

Meanwhile the scholarship giver,

German Academic Exchange Service,

they said that your scholarship will be extended only

if your professor says that you can work for Ph.D.,

otherwise you have to go back.

Then, then they said even

for our own German students we cannot say that,

so how can we say that you can work for your Ph.D.

Ok. So, so give another seminar.

So, this time of course, I was well prepared.

I was clear about my topic,

and I practiced and recorded on tape recorder.

Those days we used to have these tape recorders Ok.

Several times I practiced

and then I gave a mock seminar to my

other German students who are doing Ph.D.

and then when the final seminar came,

I took 29 minutes 30 seconds

and professor discussed one and half hours on my topic.

And then they said yes.

Now, you can you can do Ph.D.

I think that was one of the most important

things that happened in my life

because now, then in the process of this 1 year, I learnt

how to be independent and how to be self-motivating

and then how to work and how to present things,

prepare slides, and so many other things I learnt.

Then there is a first you have to also learn practice

because we cant give Ph.D. without practiced well.

So, then they immediately associated me with the

consultancy projects of the professor.

So, I used to go to project sites.

And then write, the professor was also doing international projects.

So the reports have to be written in English

and hardly anybody knew English.

So, it was good that I was writing part of

those reports and giving it to the professor.

Ok.

But then to help my thesis work

there is a system of

part time students helping research scholars.

So, I had a research project funding.

Ok.

And with that funding, I used to get part time research,

part time students to help.

Sometimes I had even as many as 6 students.

is being with the experiments, preparing the samples,

running the experiment and then doing the computer analysis

and all that they used to do.

So, to cut the long story short,

I learnt lot of practical aspects

plus I was able to complete my Ph.D. in 3 years 2 months.

So, that is why that was a record for that institute

because everybody before took

as professor said 5 to 6 years.

So, probably I was the 26th or 26 Ph.D. from that institute.

So, that is how it was.

Ok. And then I returned back to Banaras.

Yeah. After my Ph.D.

During this time Germany must have been totally different

from this Germany that we see now

because you know immediately I mean almost

20 years after the war

ended and then there are lot of you know

the division of a, I mean a Germany two two halfs.

Ok. And Berlin blockade and what not.

I think they were particularly you know

the economic situations were very

bad at that time, but how do you compare

the the which is I mean the the Germany

of that time which what you see at present?

Yes.

You know what happened is that

by the time I went it was 64,

I mean 63 December I went and then

so 64 may I was in the institute.

Then, still lots of things were being rebuild,

lot of Germany was destroyed.

Ok.

For example, when we were attending the

German classes in Goethe Institute,

we were put in private houses.

And most private houses did not didn't have even a bath.

They had only a toilet.

Ok.

But bathing you have to go out to a place and then

pay money for it and then take a bath.

It was like that.

But still I think people were happy

because they were quickly forgetting the trauma of the war.

Yeah, of course.

And then there was a lot of progress,

lot of action, people had work

and they were seeing better days,

month by month, year by year, things were getting better.

So, you see human nature is that is all relative

which you are already very prosperous

then you want more prosperity, but if you are having less

than even a little more will make a greater.

So, that way I did not notice that.

Yeah. But

what I also noticed is that once

they are become they become friendly they are very friendly.

Initially, there was a distance,

but later when you are humble and then when you

go and talk to them and interact with them and then

then they will they they were very very good.

So, there were any other Indian students

during that time when you were there?

In the in the in the entire university

if I am not mistaken,

people who were doing Ph.D. there were 2 more students Indians.

I see. So, 3 of us used to meet

and there were couple of undergraduate students,

but we did not have much contact with them.

So, it was a very very that; actually

very interesting, Karlsruhe the population of 250,000.

Ok.

And when my wife joined me in 1965

and she used to move with her saree.

She was the only lady

in the whole of Karlsruhe, an Indian lady

moving around you know in a saree and then

people used to stare at her, even this tram drivers would

you know look at stop and look at it something like that.

The local newspaper wrote an article about her and because

then she started helping in a in

nursery or kindergarten that was the situation.

Ok.

But slowly slowly many people have come

and of course, now everywhere full of people.

So, then you back in BHU how long did you

work before coming into IIT Madras?

I I extent BHU in in 2006, 67

June, and then I was given an

indication that I will be made a reader

immediate after my Ph.D. because probably in those days

I was one of the very few people with the Ph.D. in the.

Ok.

Department of Engineering in BHU.

But for some reason, some getting delay

and I was selected as a reader in

Regional Engineering College Allahabad,

but then the director of the institute would say

no, no, no, you don't go to Allahabad,

we will make you reader here itself,

and all that used to say, but sill things were not happening.

Then, someone told me

that there is an advertisement from IIT Madras.

Ok.

For faculty position.

So, then I said why not I apply.

But actually that advertisement was only for the professor,

but anyway still I applied and then

Dr. A. Ramachandran was the director.

Ok.

So, then the interview also went off very well.

And then I was leaving the room,

Dr. Ramachandran called me back

and he said Dr. Raju how is it that you are still a lecturer, he asked me.

So, I didn't know what to say.

So, I didn't say anything I think I.

So, anyway then I got appointment letter.

Ok. And then I joined IIT Madras.

Ok.

That is how.

Ok.

Probably that was a time when you know there were

large number of German professors.

Yes, yes. Then also the laboratory,

you have all those I mean our lab majority employees.

So, the senior technicians of a Germany very long.

Yes.

because you know almost you know

the conditions in the German city has been

recreated in IIT Madras perhaps because of large number of countries.

Well actually.

Yeah, actually it was a a great change from

Banaras Hindu University to IIT Madras.

Banaras Hindu University also has got a beautiful campus

some 1100 or 1400 acre campus very green,

but Madras was more focused

and then the department also was small.

And then there were not many professors

and and also most of the people were working for their Ph.D.

Ok. Is still working.

But they were doing all the work of

you know building classrooms and establishing laboratories

and you know they did lot of work.

Ok.

So, I was received with some sort of a skepticism because

many were there before me who were

aspiring to become a assistant professor,

but they could not become because they don't have a Ph.D.

and then Ph.D. was getting delayed.

So, they, so they did not say so, so much openly,

but I could see that there was a certain amount of

you know reluctance to welcome me there.

But anyway then I was

fortunate to be able to interact with them

and then also help them with their Ph.D. work to some extent.

And then there was an opportunity do do consulting projects.

Professor Verghese was the head of the department.

So you, okay.

Yeah, I when I came.

Then there was no aid to

solid mechanics in those days, it was only for structures and hydraulics.

2 German staff were there in there

and then this project called fertilizer plant at Tuticorin

and there was a very there was a naughty issue to be sorted off.

So, professor Varghese asked me to handle that

and we successfully did that.

So, that gave more rapo with head of the

department and Indian department.

Ok.

And of course, I maintain contact with the German faculty because

I really liked Germany.

So, Germany it is like a second home for me even today.

So, we had very very good time, excellent friends

and learnt a lot, and

lot of changes had happened

in Germany on the positive side.

Ok.

So, at the among the whole I think it was really

very good and then along with the

activities in the department our consultancy was picking up very well.

Ok.

There was a major initiative with L&T,

L&T did not have a geotechnical engineer in that office

in those days, foundational engineer,

so, I used to go and sit half a day

in their office, but in a week.

So, like that things were getting multiplied in an appropriate.

Sir, institute are with so many German

professors here, do you see a lot of comparison between a

Technical University in Germany and IIT Madras?

Because I think there is some sort of a

you know similarity between the two, a TU and IIT Madras. Ok.

My my understanding is that

mostly the German faculty, the professors,

even though we gave them call them professors senior people,

they were more focused on developing the facilities,

building the laboratories and less of teaching.

Ok. Where as most of the teaching was done by the Indian faculty.

I am not sure whether German faculty took any regular lectures

you got an structure and then maybe there was a

one such. Professor Prem.

Alright. Professor Prem used to take classes.

That's how. That will ok.

But they were not already professors in here.

They became professors subsequently.

Professor Rouvé was in hydraulics,

later he became a professor in Aachen.

Ok.

As a full professor, chair professor.

So, that way it was very good.

And then it was also wonderful experience with Dr. A. Ramachandran.

A very outstanding director.

In 1973, I was the secretary JEE,

all India and at that time you were the

whatever it is called coordinating institute or the

Ok. main institute conducting this.

So, I used to go to him.

I would smilingly and very promptly

simply write on every paper which you take to him SAR.

You would give sir.

So, so so prompt.

It was such a pleasure.

It was really very good timing and it.

Ok.

But I think starting in Civil Engineering Department

I think within a very short time

you had a good name as a good teacher.

Yeah.

And very good consultant

and also a research, a good researcher,

help, trying to help those who are doing their Ph.D. at that time.

So, after establishing yourself as a very

senior consultant and also a good senior faculty.

Yes.

Shift to Ocean Engineering must have been a little,

I don't know how did, how did you change their decision to move on?

No, actually what was happening is that

is Civil Engineering of course, the consulting is also a team work,

everything is a everything is a team work.

We used to work in teams.

And then what happened is that

there was an opening or an interview for a

professor in the Ocean Engineering Centre.

So, the Ocean Engineering Centre was

established at one of the advanced centres.

Yes.

And each IIT got one centre and so IIT Madras got ocean engineering.

And they were not getting people with expertise an ocean engineering

because the ocean engineering was not

globally also not a well-developed subject.

It was just picking up.

So, when the interview was there then I went for the interview there

and then they offered me the professorship there.

Ok.

Then, they also said that this

is a challenge you have to build a new institution

and Professor Mithra from IIT.

Kharagpur.

Kharagpur was there in charge of the Ocean Engineering Centre.

So, but he was already retired.

Ok.

So, then I was joining as next person to him.

So, I I thought that this is a good opportunity to

extend into a new area because

foundational engineering, geotechnical engineering

also you have to deal with coastal and offshore foundations.

Correct, yeah. So, I

I took a decision to take that offer

because I didn't have the offer for the

professorship in civil engineering yet.

Ok.

Probably, it would have come after a year or 2, but anyway.

So, I went there

and then by then Professor Indiresan has come as a director.

Oh yes yes.

So, that is how an ocean engineering he supported that very well.

Then, he visited the Ocean Engineering Centre,

we had some faculty, not many.

Ok.

And, but after the meeting was over,

after he interacted with that

for some reason he looked at me I was not the head.

He told me Professor Raju you please send

me a minutes of this meeting.

I was surprised because you did not ask the

head of the department, he is asking me.

Then, I consulted the head of the department

and then I told him he said, yes, yes please prepare and I

prepared the minutes and showed to him,

and then sent it to Professor Indiresan.

And Professor Mithra retired.

Ok.

Then Professor professor Indiresan asked me

to take over at the head of the Ocean Engineering he said.

Then, we want looking looking some more people

and realize that we should take people

who are already very good in their respective fields

and ask them to reorient themselves to ocean engineering.

That how we did you know, you are a part of that.

One of the probably legendary projects was because

immediately after you came in and also with intension

taking lot of interest in those people who have,

I think you could invent the DST to support a huge project on wave energy.

Yes, yes.

I think it has logical conclusion

of establishing or installing a wave energy caisson off Trivandrum.

Right, right.

Can you can you elaborate on that I think

audience will be very very happy to listen to it because its a it is

you are one of the very successful projects had been.

Yeah.

See, what happened is

we were doing simultaneously building up the Ocean Engineering Centre,

doing the wave basin and covering the wave basin.

And then you know for example, this I want to mention before

going to wave energy project

this is very interesting, then then you know

the normal way of covering a basin of that size in those days was

to put a steel truss with AC sheeting.

Correct.

And then I felt that as a technological institute

we should do something different.

Then our good friend A. Ramakrishna

who was at the time in L&T, ECC.

I talked to him.

He said we should put a

folded plate roof concrete roof

that is it is made to span,

cost on the ground, lifted, and placed in position.

And, but that was not done in the country before.

Ok.

So, we are going to do it for the first time.

Then, I went to Professor Indiresan and said

this is the situation this has not been done before,

but he said are you confident of doing it.

I said yes.

Then, he said immediately please go ahead.

So, then we did that and I think it has come out quite well.

So, that was one instant.

Professor Indiresan also said we are also trying,

so you have to focus on some areas you cannot do everything.

Then, I then I said those days ocean energy was the fashion.

Yeah.

So, people were talking of OTEC,

then that is the ocean thermal energy,

wave energy and tidal energy. Tidal energy,

yeah.

Tidal energy was already quite advanced,

that there were already a plant in France, tidal energy plant.

Then, actually Professor Indiresan used to participate in

Saturday meetings where we had invited different

people from different departments

and we talk used to talk about OTEC and the wave energy.

At the same time the department of ocean development

was started in Government of India.

Yes.

There was also a Department of Non-Conventional Energy

in the ministry already that was before the Ocean Energy Department.

And they sponsored a project for,

but discussion then things like that.

And later ocean development came.

And then we said that we should do something substantial.

Then I was also on the sort of a Ocean Commission,

I was also a member of the Ocean Commission

and also there was a National Institute of Oceanography,

I was also member there on the governing,

I think research council they used to call it.

Ok.

Then we made a proposal for this wave energy

project, then we certainly do a pilot plants.

The best way of conditions,

relatively best way of conditions were available

of the course of Trivandrum, Kovalam.

So we proposed that.

And then they sanctioned that.

So, that is how that project started and then

many people joined, then Ravindran joined as

PSO, Principal Scientific Officer.

I don't remember when he actually joined, but he also.

So, that is how the project started.

And that was also a great experience.

He wanted to build a huge caisson and how to build this and

nobody has done it before,

not only in India anywhere in the world.

There again Mr. Ramakrishna

from L&T, he came forward.

And then our accounts people

they said how can you give the job without without

quotations and there is only single person. Yeah.

Then, I said ok, let us go to site.

So, I took the our accounts people to

Vizhinjam or Kovalam.

Yeah.

And showed him the place and said here we have to

build a something like

how many storage structure, I not exactly remember now,

but huge scale you have to pay you tell me how we can get.

Nobody is prepared to do it.

Even one person we had to persuade.

Ok.

And so they appreciated that.

In fact, they immediately said yes sir.

This is the way we should do it

and then and all of you work very hard.

So, then the project will.

Sir, Professor, Professor Indiresan and

we had a very sort of very close relation.

Yes.

That has definitely resulted in many,

not only projects, but also

for example this building itself.

Yeah, yes. Building that we are sitting

is again you know.

Yeah, actually actually this this

being this ICSR building came much later,

not during Professor Indiresan’s time.

Ok oh I see.

Yeah ok.

And then in Professor Indiresan time

many things happened.

It was very interesting how I think

he was so proactive, so supportive

and probably I think in some way we were the same on the same page.

For example, he made me chairman incident works.

Yes.

So, I wanted to see the entire campus

of course, that anyway we were doing walking.

But I wanted to walk all along the boundary of the

campus to see the boundary all, what is the condition, and then some

people were making holes in the boundary wall and then

trespassing and all that.

So, on Sunday along with

my wife I told her let us walk along the boundary

and suddenly I find Professor Indiresan

and Mrs. Indiresan doing the same thing.

So, we really met at that time.

Ok.

So, that is one thing.

And then the second instance is the SAC building,

the student activity centre.

Ok.

That was being during his time.

That was a silver jubilee occasion and the government gave

extra grants for the student activity centre.

So, next day was the inauguration,

president of India was inaugurating to him.

So, sometime around 9 O’clock

or 9:30 in the evening,

earlier we have seen all the arrangements.

So, I felt that I should see

whether everything is ok now or what is really happening

I reached there at 9:30.

Promptly I find Professor Indiresan and Mrs. Indiresan there.

So, they he was also trying to instruct them.

That every way he was very supportive.

Ok.

And that any paper I take for approval

he would immediately sign

without even reading anything looking at it.

Ok.

So, I asked him sir one day

how are you just approving it even without

reading what I have written.

Sir, there is no need because I know that

you will not ask anything unreasonable.

So, what you are asking.

So, that is. That is a confidence,

that is a confidence he had in you.

He was extremely supportive

and that's how I learned that you have to be very supportive,

later your colleagues,

you have to trust them and you have to empower them.

That is correct.

I think it helped me a lot after subsequent years.

Then, student activity centre was actually planned

subsequently and I think it was

Professor L. N. Ramamurthy’s time when he was the dean,

some planning was done.

Ok.

But then I think Professor Radhakrishna

of Mechanical Engineering also was there I think,

then then I took over as dean.

Ok.

And this was still under construction.

So, we used to visit and then made some changes

and then some developments and all that.

Professor professor Aravindan checked all the designs for that the building.

So, there was a great tradition in IIT Madras,

all of faculty would used to get involved

with a campus development and checking designs and all that.

So, that way it was very good, very.

Then the then I moved in into the

first time into the ICSR building.

Coming back to ocean engineering, I think

we had two phases of German assistance.

I think this has also been you know

during your time you know both these

assistance programmes were planned.

Yeah.

And of course, Professor Indiresan was very very supportive.

I think many in the campus perhaps

were not very happy that ocean engineering is

you know getting a lot of disability and also

a development of funds, whether it is

you know Government of India funds

or the the the assistance from Germany.

How were you able to manage the German assistance.

Actually. In fact, of all the problems.

Actually what happened was that

you know whenever these

Germans used to come

and especially from the German agency for development,

they used to visit different places

and I think they also visited ocean engineering

and I used to interact with them.

Yeah.

So, I told them that this is a new area

and Germany is also developing in this area

and we should get assistance from Germany,

but then they said that the programme of assistance is closed.

At that time they were only doing exchange of faculty.

So, some some faculty members were selected

you know to go to Germany and then

for 2 months, 3 months like that.

But then finally, they I have I convinced them

there is is you know just because

you have some time limitations you know that

Ocean Engineering Centre should not be denied

getting assistance because without that it would be very difficult.

So, because you know random wave

and wave generators for the basin and

all that it would have been very difficult for us.

And then they agreed and then they sent

a German professor from Berlin to visit us.

He came and the he gave a report he supported it

and then then finally, they agreed to fund this project hereby.

So, I think that was a very useful inputs that we got from there

and I think as far as

I know probably subsequently NSTL must have built some of

these random wave facilities and all that,

but at that time probably we were the only institute.

So, these are the.

In fact, even in Germany they were

not having a similar facility.

No. So, that was the magnanimity

of the German assistance.

That was the way we were successful.

And I think Professor Indiresan also strongly supported that.

During his period only we got the assistance.

Sir, during your time as dean, ICSR you know

I think the PIs,

coordinators were actually liberated from lot of gangly (incoherent) holes.

Yes.

The in front of the work.

Yes, yes.

I think lot of changes where have been brought in

and as you used to say that the manager should be

that should not be a power centre.

Should be a service centre.

I think that type of a culture you should

probably instill in some of the offices here.

Yes.

That was a great change.

How do you bring about, one was that

visited Trivandrum is one thing that has changed their attitude,

but you know new things which from here itself you could change.

See, when I joined IIT Madras

and that was in 1970,

then ICSR was not yet started at that time.

I think it came later, couple of years later 73 or so.

Then you know if you get a project sponsor project,

if if you want to take a scientific officer or a someone into the project,

the registrar told me that it will take an year,

the process, because we have to advertise

in the papers and then you know whatever.

It's a very long.

You know I was shocked. How can you

wait for an year to start a project.

So, anyway, then ICSR started and then they were

slowly improving the processes and then,

but still there was

it was taking some time, couple of months to recruit.

And I said what is there in recruiting a project officer.

Finally, it should be the choice of the principal investigate, PI.

So, I made a proposal these an ICSR committee, I made a proposal

that we will have a standing committee

for recruitment of the project officer,

so which will meet every Friday and Saturday.

And when in this standing committee then of course,

the PI will be also a member

and the consult head of the department may be

somebody could be a member.

So, we will give the and then

this is sort of like a walk in interview sort of a thing.

Even without advertisement people can apply or whatever they.

Ok. And then

every week we will have this standing committee meeting.

So, therefore, if somebody finds a person on a Monday,

by Saturday the appointment letter would be given

or even Friday,

Saturday appointment letter would be given

because it is only the matter of just.

Only only condition is that was he should not

be related to you and you should be qualified.

You should have minimum qualifications.

That was acceptant.

I think I should say also Professor N. V. C. Swamy

who was the director at that time

he also supported us to have this processes.

And then people were

happy and they said we will trust people,

some people may misuse, but that trust, but doesn't matter.

So, but that is better to trust.

But I must say that that time when I took over

our consulting value was about a crore

in those days, now it must be 100 crores or whatever it is.

In 5 years in it it increased by 5 times.

So, 1 crore became 5 crores in 5 years

that is a phenomenal growth.

Then, sponsor research also grew maybe

3 times or something like that.

I don't remember the figure.

And also that was a very nice experience. We had good people.

And I think it worked well.

It worked well. It worked well.

You had a very you know enormous influence

of lot of youngsters ofcourse

I am also one of them.

Many many people you know you

mentored up later on you know they are

grown in in in various areas and

how did you inculcate this culture or

supporting and trusting people like

you have a goal and you know you mentor people,

so that you know we can reach

the goal.

That that is set for yourself.

You know what I learnt from my

team my superiors or

people who mentored me was that most

important thing is trust.

And trust in empowerment,

you have to trust then you have to empower people

and that's what we did and it worked very well.

So, so therefore, I what I learnt

from my mentors, I just passed it down.

And so I already gave you the examples of Dr. A Ramachandran

and Professor Indiresan and

you know what they taught us how to go about it.

So, therefore, it was quite easy and then

then they grew afterwards by their own merit of course

and by the ofcourse, team work.

Team work are also very important.

You know you remember when we did all these

in both consulting projects and then

sponsored projects we were such big teams.

Ok. I remember that

when we were doing consulting then

doing the instrumentation part you did the instrumented,

one jetty in Paradip

I remember that very path breaking studies.

Yes. And Aravindan and

Meher Prasad and you know Velu, Gandhi.

So, this is why it was such a wonderful thing and also

number of project officers, I remember I think

maximum number we had only about 12 or so in those days.

Ok. It's all

it I think it's all teamwork and the

merit of the people by themselves.

Most people are really good.

Even today I am seeing it. Youngsters

you put them in the right place and then tell them how to go about

and then encourage them, they will learn very fast.

So, we have lot of talent in this country.

But yesterday night I was

thinking about this Paradip Port project that we have done.

Yes.

Even today I can't believe a load cell which has been put

in the soil for several months.

Yes.

Worked very well after you know we dug up everything and then

again did the measurements.

Oh really.

I did the, in fact, the load cell were designed by us,

everything was done by us.

Yes of course.

And it it it I think we went there after the

dredging was over and then about 6 months,

it took almost 6 months,

Velu and myself went and. Yes.

Our heart was beating very fast to find out

you know whether it is going to work or not because otherwise

6 months effort has already lost.

Sure, sure.

those working so well.

You should get, yeah

it has it could get exactly the type of

predicted load that was coming onto the drivers;

is it is it is a wonderful experience.

And these are all you know

many people are not even attempted to do such

such work anywhere in the world perhaps

that is why it has become an ISD publication.

Right.

See, it is a first of all

recognizing that there is a need to;

first of all recognizing that that particular system will

work in a particular way

that was the one part.

Then afterwards you have some

youngsters I think do do is

structural analysis or whatever analysis

appropriate analysis to prove it through analysis.

But finally, to prove it through measurements,

so several roads.

So, initial identification maybe I I could see is the the concept.

Then analysis was I think done by Sundaravalli Velu, this

structural analysis and then you pioneer at the

instrumentation part and did that that is

and that is how it should be.

It's always team work.

Sir, a few words about NIOT because that is again

you had a major role in bringing NIOT to

Chennai to IIT Madras and it has so it has brought

much more perhaps that.

Budget of NIOT is at least 2 to 3

times not that that was all. Right.

What was your?

Yeah.

See, it was like this that I was on the Ocean

Commission as a member

and Professor P. Rama Rao became secretary DST

as well as the secretary of DOD ocean development.

And we used to discuss

in various meetings and all that,

and then during the discussions it came on saying that

ocean development, Department of Ocean Development

needs an institution of of its own funded by them.

Much beyond the Ocean Engineering Centre.

Ocean Engineering Centre was of course,

doing this wave energy project and all that.

Correct, correct.

So, then then academic was decided to start NIOT

and I told Professor Rama Rao they desperate to start

NIOT is to locate it on campus

and I was I was also a dean ICSR.

So, we said we will put one extra floor.

Ok.

On the ICSR building

and you please pay for that that that floor

and then he immediately accepted it

and Professor Swamy also accepted the proposal.

And that is how NIOT started in our campus.

And then, then naturally they grew

to a particular size that this space was no more adequate.

Ok.

Then they moved out and they found land and

then of course, Ravindran has taken it

forward as a director of NIOT.

So, that is how.

So, that that was a good move.

Then such experiences like would replicate

later more effectively in Delhi.

Ok.

That of co-locating the facilities with an institution.

In fact, that is my next question.

From IIT Madras after you know

you went as director of IIT Delhi.

Yes.

And you had a full term there.

Of course, definitely when somebody goes

from one institute to another institute,

best practices of the previous institute will be

I will try to replicate in in the new institute because through this.

Yes.

An established institute of the. How did the faculty of IIT Delhi.

Yeah.

Receive the the changes that you try to bring about

or the best practices that you have you know

from Madras, IIT Madras you you try to

implement it with an IIT Delhi.

What was the type of reaction from

you tackled the students as well as the staffs?

You know first I would say that

I would I would never thought that I would

go to actually Delhi I mean to lecture.

This is not in my thinking or whatever it was.

At that, by the time I was

selected at IIT Delhi I I was dean ICSR

and STS as dean I used to appreciate when.

Yeah.

director was out of station.

So, then I think when I was invited,

those days you cannot apply for a directorship.

Today I think people can apply.

Then anyways, nominations were there, I think

I don't know who all nominated, but definitely Professor Indiresan

through his channels he he

he nominated me and then

then invited for an interview and of course,

there it went very well, the interview went very well.

Then, I received this invitation to at IIT Delhi.

Then, after going there obviously,

you have all the experiences at IIT Madras of

working in the Civil Engineering Department,

Ocean Engineering Centre,

chairman, Estate and Works, which I did and then dean ICSR.

So, all these things were practically you know. Then

first thing I started was to visit all the departments

and then and centres and meet all of them.

Systematically, first meet the faculty, then meet

the staff, and meet the research students

and go around the labs and see what is.

Then go around the hostels because

that was my hobby to walk,

so I used to, I have seen every nook and corner of the campus.

Then quickly realized that

there is a backlog of faculty selections.

And so simple things, then then we immediately

went through the process of faculty selections.

You know generally nowadays maybe

things have changed, but in those days

you call all the faculty, interviews will run from morning to evening,

say 9 O’clock to evening 5 O’clock or 6 O’clock, they won't tell

when your turn will come.

So, people are just waiting from 9 to 6, some of them.

As I I I just thought about it and then said

why not we give them a time slot.

So, everybody was given a time slot of 15-20 minutes.

So, they exactly know when they are

required to be there, otherwise.

Such small things made a huge impact

going to the department and talking

with the faculty in detail and asking

in the with youngsters and hearing patiently what they have to say.

You know every semester I registered every department and centre

and centre facilities,

because you know that what

and how to get rid of obsolete equipment

because at least when I went there

and we may be true with most institutions even today

and everywhere we find lot of obsolete

equipment occupying space.

So, then I said why is it lying here

and then this administration will say that

you cant write off easily, there is a big

procedures for that and all that.

Then, I said I want a very quick coalition and finally,

I told the engineering unit

they used to have cement godowns,

I said why is this godown here such a huge godown.

No sir, we supply cement because

they may not bring quality cement.

I said forget about it.

Now, there is enough quality cement available in the market.

Maybe in olden days it was different.

So, I emptied the cement godown

and said shift everything which is

not functional into the godown.

Ok, ok.

So, 30 percent of the space

which was occupied by obsolete equipment were became free.

So, suddenly imagine that you we have so much

space which is unutilized becomes useful.

So, all those things made people happy

and they cooperated very well.

There are so many issues that will crop up,

we have to think out of the box.

Ok. So, for example, the campus was not green enough

compared to Madras campus.

So, then I told them my board in first meeting

we will plant a 1000 trees every year

on the Delhi campus.

Earlier were doing maybe 100 trees a year.

And then main the board members plant trees,

started with them with the chairman of the board.

And a small committee and

told them I want your help,

we need to plant 1000 trees.

So, they planted 2200 trees in the first year.

So, then it became the norm, 2200 is the norm.

So, 5 years I think they planted about

11000 trees or something like that.

Same thing you know with bathrooms, hostels,

if you go to the kitchen you will find

that tube lights are not working,

fan is not working, exhaust fan is not there, it's all

you know, then with a vengeance you get all those

things renovated and things like that.

So, that will win a lot of friends

because people who are working in the kitchen they are happy

then then once they are happy,

they treat the students well, they cook better.

So, like that and then construction because we said

we had 2400 students

when I went in 1995 and 2200 employees

20 acres of land,

so un utilization.

So, I told them that we should

aim to double the student strength

in my period of 5 years.

So, then you need more hostel rooms.

So, I asked the engineering unit how are you building.

So, they said that building 50 rooms,

so of course, for the government hostel

for the last 2 and half years.

I said that is too slow.

We need something different.

Then, we have planned bigger hostels and then

got the bigger builders and finally,

with our friends help got L&T to do hostels.

And they build very fast.

We were building them you know.

Sometimes one has to look at the minor things,

using my experience you know

in addition to this planting saplings and trees

I used to find the cattle on campus.

Late nights, not during the day.

See, what the neighboring villages were doing,

they will connive with the security

and though we have cattle traps

in the night they will put a plank on that

and drive the cattle.

And take them away in the morning.

So, I used to come sometimes

from the late flights to the campus and see the cattle there.

So, then I told the security officer, this is very

serious and I don't want to see any cattle on campus.

Then that made a huge difference because

without cattle all the plants started growing themselves.

Ok.

That was one important thing.

The same thing also was with the toilets,

that they were not in a proper condition and then.

So, I I literally took

the institute engineer with me and then I said if

they are not fixed within the next 2 weeks,

so I will start cleaning them and then

you may not have any option to join me in doing so.

So, that worked and then they improved.

But again they go back.

So, in there were in many ways academically

also recruiting faculty in you know,

and some of the innovations we did was that

new faculty were informed immediately

after the selection, after the interview itself.

Ok.

See earlier people will be waiting

and sitting in the admissions office to find out

have I got selected, am I promoted and all that.

I told the heads of the departments

at the end of the day itself you just

call them and tell them that they are already selected

and that made a difference

because then they are not,

then they are happy and they are join you and similarly with

people who are promoted also

without waiting for the registrar to send formal letters,

I used to send letters to them,

congratulation letters saying that

I am happy to inform you and that you are being elevated.

So, and so and then the formal letter will found.

So, all those small small things I think

motivated people well.

Sir, this is my last question.

Yeah. Looking back,

what do you think is your most unique

contribution to IIT Madras?

I know it will be very difficult because

large number of contributions

that you gave to research ofcourse,

what do you think is the most unique,

a single contribution to IIT?

You mean to say that the most

most important thing in my view?

In your view, yes.

What I what what I feel is that

I mean on the whole being open minded

and yeah they said already

mutual trust and common good and such things,

they were helped.

Certainly, I think Ocean Engineering Centre

is certainly a very good

you know example of creating a great facility.

Probably, one of the best of its kind in this part of the world,

that is one one one contribution.

And I think also

the number of colleagues who have really

done well and reach in

to higher levels and then to higher contributions.

So, I would say human resource I will put first;

you know what we have been able to create.

Then, establishing the facilities,

than building you know that create you know,

even I feel that what we have achieved together

and the consultancy friends and

sponsor research fund also is quite substantial.

Nothing when the wave project,

wave energy project was given

probably at that time that was the biggest projects.

Sir, in conclusion would you like to

because this will be viewed by many people.

Yes.

This is a part of an audio book

on IIT Madras that was published by Heritage Centre.

Yeah.

Do you have any concluding remarks to make?

I think I have already said that thing in the previous,

last point I think what I said and I think.

what I I have I have experienced is

that human tendencies to think

that what we got is taken for granted

and what we did not get looks very big.

Ok.

You know and then we always expect things to

happen faster than what they happen.

But I think the wisdom lies in

accepting things as they are and then

trying to improve and

focus on teamwork and then mutual mutual benefits,

and and the common good as I said already.

And also finally, at the good of the nation,

I mean that should be uppermost in our mind.

Sir, one one thing which I did not

ask you it's about a about your 3 children.

Yes.

I think you should tell something about them.

Ok. Yeah.

Actually, it made a great difference for

them to grow up in the campus.

Really, I think

you know, one of the important

things for us as seniors is to get faculty.

So, I used to tell the people

if you join as the faculty you have

all the freedom, number one.

And your children will get good education

and carrier and which are both

you know very important.

Ok.

So, that way we were fortunate that

we have 3 children, son and 2 daughters.

Son and elder daughter both did undergraduate

IIT Madras which is quite thing

and this the younger one did masters in Mathematics at IIT

and all of them are doing well.

So, I think definitely the campus education in the

campus living has made a

significant contribution for their for their growth.

And also, the impact the value systems

that we follow in the campus.

And I think it has been a great experience.

So, I can't think of a better place for children to grow.

Yeah, yes, yes

A campus like IIT Madras.

Thank you very much sir.

I think.

Thank you thank you Chandy.

Time we give together.

Yeah, it's it is so so nice that after a long time

we are sitting and then talking.

Yeah, we will continue to keep in touch.

Yeah, sure.

Thank you and all the best to you and your family.

Thank you. Thank you and bye.

Contribute
to the Centre
Monetary
Support
Digital
Material

< Back

Mr Venkatesh Mannar in Conversation With Mr Kumaran Sathasivam

Contribute
to the Centre
Monetary
Support
Digital
Material

< Back

Dr. Siegfried Seinecke in conversation with Prof. V. Jagadeesh Kumar

We have with us Professor Sienecke who was one of the

founding professors of IIT Madras. Welcome sir.

Thank you. So, when was your first visit to IIT Madras?

It was around the 1st July of the year 1963.

Oh, You are you you really came very early in the .

We we we came we came by boat from Genova to

Bombay. Ok.

Then, we were received by

some government persons. We were taken,

we were taken into the railway over the night,

and we have reached; we have reached here

in the morning. On the early in the morning and

all the guests, all the colleagues of, they came to the airport.

Now, they came to the railway station. Railway station.

And we had a series of cars you know.

Going from the railway station here.

So, we have been the first family, wife and two children

and myself to go into a ready-made house, 2nd crossroad.

Ok. Even the beds were prepared.

Ok. And all the colleagues, they had to live in town for some years.

Ok. You know.

So, we were the

first family you know starting here,

fresh it was very surprising, and the worst was there were some,

some animals you know climbing up like this you know.

I thought they were snakes you know. Lizards.

Geckos ye snakes, small snakes geckos you know. Geckos yes.

Geckos were surprising. And next morning around 9 o'clock

Professor Venkatarao came to our house. Ok.

With this cars, and I was called to sit in his car.

So, he was you know he was

taking me over to his department. Department.

No, no breakfast, I had to come. Ok.

To his department and till the end, he was my father here.

Ok yes. You know he was very old, very old,

he was my father here like my father

because in the second year,

I had some success and you know the main aim was

to introduce German methods. Ok.

That means the education should be more practical. Yes.

So, I started to develop experiments for the students.

40 experiments within 2 years

Oh. And each of them had to go through the experiments you know.

This was my main topic.

But the assistant professor didn't liked it.

Ok. Because I try to engage

them you know to supervise, they didn't like

so, they didn't like

because they only kept to make paperwork.

Ok. They had textbooks and put the results into the,

Board And so on.

They did not like me.

They told they put a rour in the in the in the town.

Ok. Saying we have got a young boy from Germany and

he calls himself professor. Ok.

Venkatarao. Come on boy, come on boy. Yeah ok.

Take your take your hair and do not mention, go on.

Ok. You are good like a father you know.

Yes. so, in fact Professor Venkatarao was the He was great.

Head of the Department for a very long-time .

He was great. He went to Africa then. Yes.

So, who were all the other German professors

who worked with you at the time?

Professor Lutz. Lutz.

He came shortly after me so.

Steam machines. Ok.

He was from Damstra.

Then Heitland. He came from Caltech.

And, Scheer he was here

long time earlier. Mechanical engineering

A tall fellow, he was he leaving

IIT later and went to Ethiopia.

And he got married there also.

So, I met him a few years ago,

he was spending the the largest portion

of his life in Ethiopia.

Ok. So, a very experienced you know worker.

Then, Doctor Koch in physics.

you know running the workshop,

Dr. Klein, he was in charge of languages, I guess.

I mean it was a a group of very different persons.

Ok. Very different you know.

We were the only young family.

I was only 30. Ok.

But it worked,

it worked no problem and from the beginning,

I had friends in in Germany. Trainees

who came to my institute in Germany to be trained,

even to do do their doctorate work. It was. Yes yes

Dr. Garud you know, he did his doctorate work

in my department and I also helped him.

Dr. Banerjee also Yes.

was here. So, when I came here

the first Sunday, I went to Adyar,

and I found the family of Padmanabhan.

Ok. Padmanabhan, I found his family on the first weekend

imagine, and from that time,

I visited this family nearly every week once.

Ok. Even now, I saw his sister Vasantha.

Ok. He returned to Germany; he worked for IBM.

Yes. Precision mechanic was his subject.

So, this was you know. Amazingly

I came in contact with those trainees,

and they took me over,

invited my wife and then,

they told me why don't you come with us?

So, I was I had my doctorate work ready so, I was open

to leave the Institute in Brunswick

and so, I decided to go. Ok.

So, I went to Bonn, I recontract, and waited and then,

Professor Klaus came, he came to see the trainees. Ok.

And they introduced me to Professor Klaus.

He was a project leader. Ok.

And they told him, my dear professor,

this is the chap who will go with us to Madras.

Then, he replied, which fool has influenced you to go over there?

Which fool? It was a joke you know. Yeah.

But this was this kind of joking.

So, you know I was shifted and prepared to go here.

Ok. By those friends.

Good. When I, when I came back to

Germany 2 years later, some of them were still there.

So, I was received again, and

I was honored saying 'foreign return'.

Ok. That means, he comes back,

he has a new car, he is rich now you know.

Foreign return. Foreign return.

You know that word?

Professor Mayer’s also came from Brunswick?

He came. Much later.

Yeah, yeah he came after me. Ok.

Shortly after, yeah yeah, he was from Brunswick

and he was here for a long time.

So, you have been coming here regularly,

how do you feel that IIT has progressed?

Now, you know I came here in; I came here in 18

1989, 91, 93, 2009, 2013, I guess in 2017 now.

You know you can judge about

development only after having a distance.

A distance of looking at it and knowing so, this time

I had a distance of 4 years. Ok.

And I found it has developed well.

It has been it has become larger and more students

and more whatever complex devices. I am really

happy about this development,

and I think you know after the first two years here,

it was declared that there had been four IIT’s.

Yes. This was number 1.

Number 1. And I hope this is still number 1.

It is number 1 in 2016. Yeah, Yeah.

Among all the 20 IIT’s.

Yeah, it is number 1 among the 23 IIT’s,

among all the colleges in the country

and the we hope to keep that number one in 2017.

It it was declared number 1 in 2016

and we hope to get it in 2017 also.

Ok. You know I am I am in a position to support India you know

because this is part part of my home,

it is in your home country

so, I like it as it is now,

but nobody will believe this is is this is

institution in India because

in the opinion of the majority of European,

India is a lousy country, you know.

Full of trouble and poverty and so on,

misusing girls you know in the newspaper. Newspaper, yes sir.

So, they won't believe,

but I I am convinced it is a country

where you have proper developments like this

and I will defend it, I will defend it

and say this is my truth about the country.

So, how were the classes held? What was the starting time?

Starting time? Yeah, for the classes?

I started to begin the to install equipment. Ok.

You know you had the buildings, empty rooms, the equipment

from Germany was in the store,

nobody had opened the boxes. Nobody.

So, I put them out, started to have early experiments,

then I had a large room to be installed with tables

and switching boards and whatever.

So, I had to go to the Director.

And ask him how should we do it, this way, this way,

he would always say no, no. This was his answer: no.

So, I left him and did it in my way. That means,

I had a long long room. Ok.

And I had two chambers, two chambers here, here

two of them and had the switching board above,

had the tables in the wall

and those tables were made of Bangkok Teak.

Oh. You cannot afford now.

Yes, we cannot afford. You have to buy Bangkok Teak.

Ok. Is Bangkok is in the next country?

Yeah Thailand, it is in Thailand.

Thailand no. Yeah.

No Thailand, Bangkok is in Thailand.

Marvelous, it they were built in the workshop here.

So, the workshop was run by an

an elderly people also, he also

like he was like my father. So, once I went to him

to have something and it was delayed.

He tried to help me and explained

you know boy like that you know.

You my boy, I must apology you

for not you know getting ready,

I did not know what is the word apology.

ok. Apologize .

Yeah. Apologize those you know old people,

there were like my father, it was so nice you know,

I was the youngest here, I was active and then,

this laboratory was ready, let us say 10 tables you know

2, 4, 6 and 10

ready-made and we we covered the the cables with with

thick face plywood. All were expensive.

So, then I called the Director, what happened?

All my mechanic would come. They would come,

they would they would hide themselves

behind the pillar you know. Waiting, waiting, waiting,

the Director came in looking at this this

room he never came back. He never came back. Came back.

So, we had to accept it, the it was against his own plans. Ok good.

He never came back.

So, do you recollect any of the Indian professors

at that time who joined along with you?

Remember you mean?

Other other Indian professors

who joined the electrical department?

Venkata, G. V. K. Murthy.

Oh, V. G. K. Murthy yes. Was in a nice, he was in

measurement technology. Yes.

He was very polite and very good staff .

Achyuthan was bad. Achyuthan.

Achyuthan was arrogant. Ok.

Really, he did not like me at all. Yeah.

So, the many of them. Banerjee was there?

Banerjee was there. And Narayan Rao?

Narayan rao. He did his PhD in high voltage

from Erlangen, I think.

V.G.K. Murthy was a very polite person I must say.

Ok. In your first visit, how long you were here?

I only stayed here for 2 years. 2 years ok.

But you know the appreciation of I got later during the visits.

Ok. Imagine, I came here in the year 89,

I brought my daughter with me.

My daughter was a linguist, a language

Specialist. Expert

in English and French.

she worked for the European Union in Luxembourg

in the German department.

And I took her to India for three weeks each.

We have been in Delhi and Bombay, in Nagpur and here and so on

and she she put lectures on

the aim on the purpose of the European Union.

In the age of 30 you know. Ok.

Young girl playing world policy

because Doctor Rao told me

why do not you take your daughter she would be an expert.

So, I she did , she had she posed lectures about

the European union in many places and without an official order.

It was a private talk you know with Yes.

over headphones and everybody clapped you know.

They liked it; they liked the way

how she did it, it was really great.

My daughter was number 1, I was number 2.

Ok. She was so open minded and she in all the places,

she was attracted by the by the girls you know. Ok.

She was you know among the girls

and they they took her into the girls hostel.

Oh Ok. I could; I could never enter you know.

Ok. But she she would see everything you know,

all the mess inside you know.

It was so nice to have her with me. So, when she came back,

She remembered old old times when she was here when you are young?

Did she remember? Yeah yeah.

All; all time here. She she came here in she was 4 years old.

Ok. 59, 63 yeah 4 years.

Ok. And she was so clever. Imagine

in the year 65, she was as 5 years old you know

and once, we went to Vasantha’s house in Urur, Adyar. Ok.

ok. We came there in the afternoon after the lunch

so, we came into the court behind the house and

there were some leftovers from the, from the lunch

so, what she declared: aunty Laxmi, you your house is dirty.

You must wash the crockery. Ok .

In the year of 5 you know imagine. Yes.

So, proud and safe and yes aunty Laxmi, she is right you know,

she is right yes, she is about my style somehow.

So, when you came in 1963, was there this much amount of trees

or the institute was so many trees were there or not so many?

Imagine it was still, it was unique in in in India of course,

I saw I I see for talk somebody has invited me there,

but you know this a combination of

living areas and institute and wildlife,

it is unique you know

even according to to European measures,

this is the paradise. My opinion you know. Yes.

It is a paradise in India all together,

living area, hostels, institutes nobody will believe this

in Germany. Nobody believe.

So, how many students were there in the class at the time?

There was a convocation in 64.

The first group of, batch of engineering you know.

I mean leaving the school 50 or 100 like that you know. Ok

No, when you are teaching the students,

how many students in your class?

It was a the section for on high frequency communication. Ok.

So, my lessons were for 20 people. 20 people.

Like this and I had four diploma works conducting the work. yeah.

And so, four experts decided to be with me, and

this was something new for the remaining teachers

and I had because I came from a television in Brunswick,

I had talks in in other schools in in in Madras

about the basic theory of colors you know.

The color television you you mix three elementary colors

red, blue, yellow whatever

and you then create any kind of shade

so, I explain this people here, the theory of mixing colors.

If you you know in the 65 this was new, there was no

there was no, no color television at all.

No color television in in Europe,

it was after 70 only,

it was something new even for other schools also.

So, the institute had a television laboratory at that time?

Here? Yeah,

No, no. No.

Not there. Not even no receiver here.

Ok. In Germany, we had a close relation to RCA.

Ok. In America and the RCA, they have built the first color tubes

you know huge devices like this you know, like this,

the first receivers were the tube

was flowing up and there was a mirror.

So, you should look at the mirror and down. Ok.

Very complex device.

So, this was in the year 65, this was new.

The installation of this was only later.

And I, I learnt the technology of color television

in in in in my doctorates work. So, like just to have talks,

it was nice to have, it was nice

to have something special you know

which was new, but the real,

my real basic education was in Siemens then.

Siemens. You know I joined Siemens in the year 50, 60 65

I had a good start and the the the best

education here was the language.

You know I even now, after 10 days, I start thinking

and and and sleeping and dreaming in English. English.

But how how difficult it was it was when you came from

Germany to teach in English? It was not difficult.

No, Yeah.

I was open enough. Ok.

So, the language now you know I came to Siemens,

it was the beginning of computer science.

So, all my colleagues there were educated for

you know ordinary electrical material, but not for. Computer Sciences.

To build large computers you have to speed up. Yes.

So, it is a question of the transmitting pulses, transmitting

electromagnetic waves along printed lines.

So, this was new for everybody.

But I I came from communication you know. Communication so you

I was prepared you know to to have a multilayer

boards and have really transmission of pulses

and not only 1’s and 0’s, there was a difference.

So, this I learnt in in the University of and then, my language.

I was very good in English, and this helped me a lot because

I had to go to America very often to meet other companies.

When I came there, Motorola, other companies my boss was with me

my boss was at my side so, he would talk.

When I came alone, I would talk,

and they like they liked me you know to be the guest.

Once I had to step down in Zurich

to change the plane and a chap from Motorola came from London

and he asked me where are you going?

Yes, I am going to we are going to

Phoenix, Arizona, he got pale,

and declared you are known as a tough negotiator.

Be careful he is coming again. He knows it.

This fellow he knows it not only 1’s and 0’s.

It was such a close relation

when I came the big shots came to talk to me

because I knew the details you know,

I was from communication and

once I asked him can't you

show me your equipment to test these devices you know,

can't you show me your automated testers.

So, they would look around like this and like this, you can go.

So, I was allowed to go to the lab and see it. See.

And then, I I built my own testers at home. Oh Excellent.

After learning how to do it and my own testers

were much better than those you know?

This is the way to be trusted. Ok.

So. When companies who work together,

you have to be open. Yes, I understand.

In both directions otherwise,

it is it not true. This I learnt

because it is through the language you know,

I was prepared to declare everything precisely.

So, after you went back to Brunswick, you rejoined the University of

Brunswick? No, no. No. I went to Siemens.

Oh you didn't join the.. Directly

No, it was over. It was over. It was over. Ok.

So, apart from you, who else came from Brunswick?

Meyer. Meyer, only two of you?

I I I knew Meyer from many years. Yes,

I I also know Professor Meyer . You know.

In fact, when I went to Brunswick, I stayed in his house for 1 day. Oh really?

Yes. Oh oh.

So. Now, he lived close to Hanover.

Yes. He was working in another school there

I know. he he was working in Hanover.

Yeah. As a Emeritus Professor.

So, how how was life in the evenings? Here?

Even after. you could you you have shadowed trees

from the beginning, you could you could walk.

The children they played in the in the court behind the house.

It was there, there was a tree with shadows.

They played in the sand, no infection, nothing.

You know at home, what about your how can you.

When we left Germany in the 60s,

many friends came to the railway station.

How can you be so cruel and take your small kids to India.

Oh, how can you, nothing happened. Nothing happened.

Nothing happened. There was no danger. Ok.

No, what I wanted to ask was

whether the German professors were together, you were

having some kind of an activity together at the time?

You know Rouvé was there. His wife was intelligent somehow.

And he also came I think he came from near East to Madras.

So, he was, he had worked in other countries you know before,

he was an experience you know worker for outside countries.

Rouvé was there and, but you know we we we stick to friends

outside of the IIT. Ok.

Vasanta for example, I have met her some days ago.

And we were invited to to my co-workers, there is Chester in Velachery. Yes.

He was my assistant, my foreman was Rangachari.

Ok. And he was relative of Sampath.

So, the problem was Rangachari liked me,

Sampath didn't like me. Ok.

But Rangachari was supporting me.

You got huh? Yes, I understood.

He was supporting me.

He came to Germany for training for some some months

and he came to my house also. So, these two years

they have opened my mind. Ok.

You know I have been travelling

to other countries. I have been travelling to Syria and Iran.

I came here also to see schools

to see schools in Delhi and Bombay

and Nagpur especially in Rajkot.

So, because I knew Kathiawar is a remote province

so, how to go to Rajkot, so, the message was this.

I would call in Nagpur, dear Garu (incoherent) Yes.

can't you help me, have you got a friend in Rajkot

who could was invite me. Let me think.

After two days calling back,

I talk to Balakrishna, you should come. Ok.

That's all. That's all.

This was the invitation on many places like this so, I came.

I had to go by plane from Bombay, but on that day, no flight was going.

So, what to do? I went out of the airport, domestic airport

and asked the taxi drivers how to go.

They put me to another airport in Bombay,

I used to drop the ticket,

bought a new ticket and flew over the ocean

in two hours to Rajkot. Ok.

Sitting between the propellers like this. Ok.

We landed, nobody to receive us

so, we rushed into the institute,

rushed up into the main hall,

seven professors were waiting there,

pale face telling me you should not be here.

There has been no plane today. Ok.

And then you are an experienced traveler to find another plane.

So, this was this I learnt this you know, I have been in in Pakistan also. Oh.

To see schools and to study culture. I have been in Islamabad.

And in Taxila and in Lahore of course also.

Placing electra, living in a guest house and being guided for culture

and in Islamabad, it was like that.

You cannot imagine I was in Islamabad and Tehran and

Avas in the south of Iran. So, did you visit your house again

in second cross road when you this time? Yeah, with my daughter I visited you know.

Let me explain this. A professor was taking me from the airport

and then, he drop me, within half an hour I will pick you up,

we will have dinner together. So, then, in the car, driving

what would you like to eat this and this and this,

shall we go to the hotel?

No, we will go home, we will go to my home.

So, a a door of this side was kept open,

if the car was shifted in the door was closed from the street,

lady was waiting, they had been in England for many years

so, I was taken in. There was table like white table.

And said if you now we should have the tappas first on the table here,

I told him we shall have the tappas on the ground as you take it usually.

So. So, I had to put on the ground.

Ok. Having tappas.

Then, I managed to stand up again like this. Ok.

And they came where should have the main dish at the table

in the next room, I told we should have the main dish again

on the ground. Ground ok.

So, from day one, you are the Tamilian, you you had to.

You know one has; one has to observe certain rules but.

Yes. This was the the first experience. You know

to eat like a Muslim people in. People here in Tamil Nadu.

The first experience. Yes.

It was so good. Ok.

In the morning, they they they took me from the guest house

say at 8 o'clock 8:30, they declared

and now, we shall have first,

we should have some coffee and tea,

I told we shall go to the to the lecture hall immediately

because we should not keep the

young people waiting. Student waiting.

So, it was deviating from the normal vote

you know, but they also accepted it

because it was; it was good. Yes.

These young people were my guests you know.

If you come in to those countries,

you are a unique surprise you know for people. Yes.

If the only one who ever comes to Avas in the South far South,

you have the famous David, a Saint who was supporting the rulers,

he was giving good advices, David in the lions bit.

Once another nobleman, he would declare David is a bad man

so, he was put into the lion’s pit, but the lions would

continue sleeping and go on. They would not eat him.

Ok. Because he was a good man. And that is this for I was put in lion pit.

Immediately, it was destroyed. David the advisor. Yes.

Very far south and this was before the war you know Syria was

in peace and Iran also, it was in the 90’s.

So, it was no not dangerous as it is now. When you were in here during 63 to 65?

60. Yeah.

Did you go anywhere in within India? We spent 4 weeks in Munnar.

Oh Munnar. That is close to Cochin.

Yes. This was, it was the old colonial time.

Because there were still a in Munnar, there were

still 30 British farmers.

And only 1 Indian farmer. Indian farmer.

So, it was still the old way, and we were

we were visitors and they liked to you know spoil us and and

a large guest house and so on, we had to food with them.

And especially, there was

there was on Thursday, there was a lady’s day.

So, all the ladies from farms

with their children came in with them maidens also

a lady’s day; so, we were taken to the ladies

and they told old stories from centuries ago,

they told old stories, we had to look and to listen

and there was one story there was one one lady called Mary

and she was they didn’t like Mary,

but they told us you know this Mary

once the British queen came to India

and this ugly Mary, she was;

she was she was able to be in the first row.

Ok. We were in the last row,

isn’t it a shame that Mary was in the first row close to the queen.

They told the story 4 times. Four times Each Thursday.

And the gents, Saturday being brought with their driver

in the main hall come on board so, I had to take a round,

sit there, drink beer. At my side, you would pile up in full bottles

and at their side, they would pile up empty bottles you know.

Will old time and then, bar and then, the dinner between 8 and 10

and then, at 10 o'clock closed and the drivers would take the

the boss into the car, and they would drive out hours,

many hours to far remote you know

forms every Saturday it worked.

It was the old you know the old British atmosphere

and once I I we visited the farms also with my family. Because

it was new for them you know, young family coming as friends.

So, once I went up into the Kundadri estate, it was very high,

it was the best quality of tea

and there was a golf place playing golf

and only for the manager of the institution and his friends.

So, I was put there, and they received me immediately

and took me in and the manager then had a large room and

I was placed here and used to there, there main order.

And I had to eat there and then, it was 10 o'clock

and then, we are what about your wife?

Is she is she informed about you being here, give her a ring.

So, I ring up my wife, it was far out. I my my dear wife,

they keep me here. I cannot leave immediately. Ok.

It will take some hours my wife, stay where you are.

And those steps, they declared. In my in my case,

I would do this at 10 o'clock, I would say I will come at 11,

at 12 o'clock every day, I come at 1 and so on. Good advice no.

Good advice. It was a nice time those four weeks,

a different time, but it was very nice.

So, we went through Bangalore.

We we had the priest here, Lutheran priest

and my younger daughter was

baptized there in Kilpauk. Oh ok.

But at the end, I broke my leg. Oh,

when you were here? Kuppuswami a mechanic.

Yes. He took me to his village.

Ok. In Pudukkottai so, so we were received by the Major and

taking around and then, the Major invited me

come for Pongal in January 65.

So, we went there for Pongal, we enjoyed the procession,

I came there along with aunty Laxmi from Urur and Kuppuswami.

So, I enjoyed the procession is this the bridge,

I was standing here with camera.

I had a tape recorder and the camera.

Ok. And I was following the procession and I didn't know that

there was no no more bridge. No more bridge.

I had to jump down 3 meter.

Oh. There was no water, I want to had to run down to the rocks.

Ok. So.

Was it; was it a major fracture or? Procession was over.

Ok. They came down and put me up.

Ok. 4 years ago, I was in the village.

Oh, you came went again to the village. Again.

An old farmer came

from his house and told me I have. Lift lift.

Taken you up. I tried to go to that village last week. Ok.

But we could not find the address.

Oh. Ok. So, I was taken to hospital. It was this parts, this piece here.

Yeah yeah. Broken off so, they had to fix it.

Ok. Operational of

Operation. showed me. Then, I was at home and doctor,

my wife was upset of course, you can image. Yes sir.

I came I came back, they had to take, I could not drive.

A bus driver from the next village, they came and they took me up

and we reached hospital and at 12 o'clock with the night,

I was examined full body you know next morning, examined again

and my wife was you know very sorry, but it was; this was

a very important time because I was in the general ward,

there was no private room available. There were 20 gents

on this side and 20 here. 20 here.

So, nobody could speak English except one merchant.

Ok. So, where do you come from?

Germany, Germany, Germany, Germany, Germany, Germany, Germany, Germany.

Yes. Then, how many children have you got?

Children, children, children, Children, Children. It was nice. Ok .

Behind my neck, there was a wall this side. And behind this wall,

there was a general ward for the ladies. Oh.

So, one lady had fallen from the bed. Oh.

And couldn't be cured.

So, day and night. Ok.

Soon after 4 days, my wife told the doctor,

please get my husband home. Home ok.

So, the She was staying with you there?

She was staying with you there? No, no she brought; she brought the food.

Oh. Ok. There was no kitchen.

Ok. So, I was taken home and.

So, he came every afternoon this week, had some whiskey

with my wife, then came up to checkup. So, this was again

a very impressive time you know. Yeah.

It it works nice because

when I came to Brunswick, it was done well

they used they used a sort of nail to put it back you know

it is called Kuntscher name so, it was Kuntscher nail.

Ok. It was invented by a German doctor.

Doctor. Surgeon, German surgeon and still also, I have connections

to this this family by like. Oh. Ok.

He he was living in Santhome.

But I I could not find their house.

Yeah, city has changed a lot. He had; he had a daughter and 3 3 boys,

but in the his name is Bashir Ahmad,

there are about two thousand Bashir Ahmads here in the. Yes.

So, this is the additional impression you know from India,

bad and good, interesting and whatever risky. It is the faith.

How can you know that there is no railing, I didn't know.

And I was following the procession and turning around. Procession.

I have carried you up after 50 years. That's really nice.

You know the the real basic culture is in the villages.

Even last week I went to the village of the cook here.

And they are so in their, they are so close to our villages

you know, not spoilt and in in in one generation rising from

a farmer’s boy to school teacher and next generation

rising from the school teacher to an engineer in England

or an America. So, within two steps you know from the ground,

it's fantastic. Fantastic. Ok, thank you.

It's very wonderful talking to you, right.

Contribute
to the Centre
Monetary
Support
Digital
Material

< Back

Prof. G. Subramanian (Retd. faculty, Aerospace Engineering) in conversation with Hari Ramachandran (student)

Good morning Professor Subramanian.

Yes.

Now, let us begin.

You joined IIT Madras in 1966

as a lecturer in the Department of Aeronautics and Applied Mechanics.

What made you join this department

that was so young and so small and just upcoming?

Yeah, I was young myself.

Yes, sir.

And, the young department where I could enter,

there was an opportunity available,

and I had just finished my master's programme

in Aerospace Engineering from IISC, Bangalore.

When the advertisement came,

it looked a good opportunity for me to join the programme. Yeah.

Another reason also is there,

I always liked to do research

and then, I found research and teaching had to go together.

So, I had to look for a teaching position in order to do research,

and this turned out to be a nice opportunity.

I was able to convince my interviewers that I was good

and so, I got it,

that is the way it was.

Yes.

So, you had completed your PhD under Dr. K. A. V. Pandalai.

Yes. So, could you could you describe him

as a teacher and as a person and some of your memorable learning experiences with him?

Yeah, Professor Pandalai was an extremely nice person,

and he was a great mentor for me,

but originally, I was not planning to do PhD with him,

because in 1966, when I joined the department,

the department was called Aeronautical Engineering and Applied Mechanics.

In fact, the German aid was not available

for the Applied Mechanics department-for the Aerospace department,

but, for the Applied Mechanics department it was available therefore,

the aerospace-that is the Aeronautical Engineering programme was

brought under the Applied Mechanics department

for the BTech Programme.

Even the BTech students started joining this programme at their 3rd year

because Mr. Shantha Kumar,

Professor Shantha Kumar, who was interviewed a few..some time back.

He was in the Civil Engineering programme and then, in his 3rd year,

he moved over to the Aerospace department-Aerospace programme.

So, likewise, a few students who liked the aerospace idea,

Aeronautical Engineering idea in that day, in those days,

they moved over to-

they moved over to the

Aerospace programme or Aeronautical Engineering programme

as it was...because, I want to make a difference between-distinction between

aerospace and aeronautical engineering.

It was started as an Aeronautical Engineering programme

later on, called as a Aerospace Engineering

with the aerospace content introduced in it.

So, in the first...about 2 or 3 years,

the Head of the Department of Applied Mechanics was Professor D. V. Reddy.

My plan was to work with him

because he was the head of the department, he was the

only available PhD scholar at that time for doing PhD.

So, I moved in with him,

and I started working in the area which was closed to him,

difference equation methods in structural mechanics.

But then, what happened was,

he for some reasons he

left the institute and then went to Canada,

and what he said was that,

he had spoken to Professor Pandalai who had joined in,

and that he could take me as a

PhD scholar.

So, that is how it happened. The transition took place

and Professor Pandalai also was an Aeronautical Engineer

from VPI - Virginia polytechnic,

and so, it all just came about that way.

So, I began working with him,

you asked me about his characteristics.

Right.

Extremely brilliant teacher.

Many things I learnt from him,

with just one course he taught on applied essentials.

And, in fact, teaching itself I started honing

when I looked at him, the way he presented.

So, that way he was good.

He also, was taking over the job of editing

aeronautical..that journal of aeronautical engineering,

we used to produce some publications for it,

I went and submitted a paper, of course, him and me as the authors.

And he said, "why are you working in exact solutions all the time?"

But, that was my favourite.

I said, "I like it." No, but in practic,e exact solutions are usually not enough,

you have to go in for even approximate solutions," that is what he said.

So, that triggered me.

Another time, what he did was

we were working with him and initially,

I was planning to work in the area of shells,

and what happened was,

some time in between, he was planning to leave and go to US for a year.

He called me and said,

"why you want to work in the area of shells?

you already have publications in your own area

which you started with Professor Reddy,

go ahead and do it, that is also structural mechanics," he said.

And so, he completely handed over the freedom to do research in this area,

I appreciate it because,

he found that I was able to do something in that area,

and that was his brilliance -

he could identify who could do what,

and that gave me so much freedom and also convenience that

before he returned,

I really came up with lot of material for PhD.

And he said, I gave it to him,

he looked at it and he is a mathematics person basically,

who became an engineer later

when he went to be VPI.

"These are all mathematics,

put in some applications-

engineering applications," he said. I took another year to do the applications.

It also happened that,

those days, computers were not available.

Some computers were available in Guindy Engineering College,

and also AC-Tech.

And whenever we wanted to do some computation,

we had to prepare decks of cards

send it through a messenger who was available in the library,

it will go there and get examined,

the output will come,

we will look at it make corrections and the next day we send.

So, this is the way.

In fact, it took me a nearly year before I completed my work,

and presented it for a PhD.

But then, he was a great person.

He also understood what I was capable of, I did not know myself.

He made me the joint secretary of the Joint Entrance Examination programme.

In fact, I became a joint secretary then, became a secretary

then completed my exercise

with the joint. In those days, the programme was,

there will be a chairman and secretary.

The chairman, at that time, when I was involved

in IIT Madras, was Professor Chandrashekhar Swami,

who became the director later.

So, we were the team,

and in 1975, I was involved with the joint entrance examination work.

He could see

that, I was able to do it, most of the time I did not see many things myself,

others started seeing many things in me.

Is it also true that

Dr. A. P. J. Abdul Kalam is a student under him at some point of time?

Yes, he...Dr. Abdul Kalam,

he did his BTech Programme at MIT -

Madras Institute of Technology.

He was doing his aerospace engineering, at that time,

Kalam was one of the students.

So, many of your early publications were based on Moire’s method.

Please tell us

how this came to be and how extensively was this method used?

I was not confining myself to only experimental work,

as it seems to look, the way you are asking me.

I did both experimental and theoretical work.

Theoretical work was, I had shifted to..

like Professor Pandalai said, I had shifted to approximate methods,

finite element method is an approximate method,

but, it has potential to give very good results,

and that was the one which was computer oriented

and I had begun working in that area.

Whereas, Moire method is the experimental one.

We had to develop the laboratory and Professor Pandalai said,

to every one of the faculty members,

"all of you must come up with

two or three experiments in the laboratory

and put up an experimental facility.

And, every one of us began planning some experiments

and so, the workshop was at our disposal,

we went in and then, started designing and putting up an experimental setup.

So, that way, I would design three,

another colleague of mine would design three,

like that about 30 experimental things were brought up, built up

and later on, when I took over as the

in charge of the laboratory-structure laboratory,

we weeded out some of the experiments which could not be really sustained

and then, selected about 8 to 10 experiments which were okay

and then, that became the basis for

the laboratory experiments for the students subsequently.

That means that, I got involved in the laboratory development.

And, there was always a talk saying that, if we purchase a photo elastic

bench or something, they say, because funds were limited in those days,

they say, it is there in the Physics lab

it is also there in the Civil Engineering department

why do you want to duplicate like that.

So, what I thought was, let us do something where

it will be different.

So, I thought up about that,

and Moire became my kind of a starting point.

So, I liked it and I also gave couple of lectures for Professor Sirohi.

Professor Sirohi is the person

who became the director of IIT Delhi subsequently.

He was in charge of the Engineering Design Centre

which was having a lot of equipment

brought in by German interaction.

And they make lenses, they have..a lot of optical work they could do,

the fine work, fine techniques, that is what it was.

He used to invite me to give lectures in the area of Moire

for his summer programmes.

So, that way I started interacting with him.

I thought, why not I develop Moire laboratory?

And, that became the basis for that.

Then, I engaged some of the BTech students and MTech students to

interact with me and also develop some things,

in the process, we started also publishing a few basic things,

that is how it began.

But, the important thing that came about in Moire method was,

one with Krishna Kumar,

MS student,

who went on later to Australia and he is a professor somewhere,

and we came up with a nondestructive testing idea

using the Moire method, which is still an unusual method

which really shows the

defects in the products

easily by an optical procedure -

reflective Moire, that is what it is called

so, that is what came up.

During the early and developing stages of the department

what difficulties did you face in your research while

the structural labs had to come up,

and where was most of the experimental work conducted

in the early few years considering that funds were low?

You see, it is true,

but, my experimental work I did in the department,

we built up the facilities,

basic facilities which were needed were not so much,

ordinary lenses

and some things like that we started working.

And, this fine techniques laboratory,

they used to supplement us with some equipment,

I mean, the small ones I needed. Really, Professor Sirohi and Kothiyal,

they were very helpful.

But the structures laboratory was coming up,

and in the initial stages,

the Department of Metallurgy and the Department of Applied Mechanics,

Civil Engineering, in those places where giving..

facility offering or

making available the facilities of their laboratories

for our students to go and do work.

So, that is the way it happen.

So, these people, when they had this laboratory work to be done,

some of the basic work

was being done in the metallurgy laboratory

for structures and things like.

So, Applied Mechanics and Metallurgy department

and Civil Engineering department,

they were able to offer facilities for the students in the initial stages

and then, we were developing our own laboratories and then bringing it up.

So, tell us about the number of projects

that came to your department during your career,

and among the projects that you were associated with

which were the more interesting and the challenging ones?

Yeah,

not many projects came about,

I mean, involving me directly.

But, there were many colleagues who were having plenty of employees.

But, during the period,

you know, the German aid was not available to the department,

but then, a French aid was available which Professor Pandalai saw through.

In fact, he was instrumental in getting the French aid

as well as certain award from the government

with which he began a setting up the FRP centre.

It is his brain child, it is his own thing,

I was not involved in that.

But, you were asking me about the

I just missed the point.

Interesting and challenging projects.

Yeah, project, challenging projects.

See, the AIRDB was starting to allot projects, allot funds for projects,

when we made a request for project funds.

It was just coming up,

even these ideas were only coming up at that time,

you know, the institute used to get some funds from the government,

institute apportion funds to the various departments,

and depending on the departments ability to grab funds,

things were coming into the to the various departments at that point.

The question of projects and things like that,

those ideas started culminating into projects,

for funds, funds for projects only later.

So,

you cannot say many projects came about during that period,

but then, later on, the trend became

rampant and then projects came about.

So, that is the way it was.

So, with, with whatever we had we started working with it,

with whatever funds we could get.

So, our experiments were done in such a manner that they required

minimum, minimum expenditure and also maximum benefit

as it were. Therefore, the fundamental work was being done

where we needed much less input in the form of funds.

So, that is a way we managed the whole issue.

So, so the FRP centre, you said it to was Professor Pandalai's brainchild.

Yes. But, who..like, how did it come about?

Was it was it purely his idea and not the other faculties associated with it,

how did it come about?

No, it was he wanted a composite centre and therefore,

he, he thought about it and then got funds for it.

The French group could give some support

and the he, what happened was,

the Department of Aerospace Engineering had its own workshop

and the facilities of the workshop were also made available to the FRP centre

because it was his centre,

and that is the way it started growing.

Then, it became somewhat independent centre subsequently.

Professor N. G. Nair was involved in that,

Dr. N. G. Nair - N. Gopalakrishnan Nair.

So, he was made in charge.

Professor Pandalai was controlling from the other side

so, that particular centre began growing up.

I didn't have much to do with that.

So, were there any special projects

that you that you worked with with other departments?

Are there any faculty members from other departments

that you remember working with?

No,

I did not have any other department faculty working directly with me,

but we had interactions, alright.

For example, Professor Sirohi and Professor Kothiyal

they were the ones who were

giving me a lot of support

when I was building up the Optics Laboratory in the department,

that is Moire Laboratory in the department.

I had a separate dark room and all those things

and then, we were working in a time

when the digital approach, digital methods were not available.

But then, slowly the Moire methods..

I started moving it into the computer applications

and now, I would say I moved over to digital image correlation techniques

from Moire methods, because they all are optical methods.

So, that is the way it started growing.

I will not say, I was directly involved

with any other faculty member in any other department seriously,

I mean you will find that.

So, that is.

Ok.

Sir, so, this is the question we ask most of the people who we interviewed,

throughout your journey here at IIT

do you have any memory

that is very close to your heart,

maybe inside the department or even outside,

that you would like to share with us?

I, really do not have such a very serious thing

that happened during my...because, I have been just going moving forward,

I was not planning anything very big,

but I was-it was happening,

most of the time it was happening,

that is the way I always felt. See, something was happening and therefore,

I was joining the stream and I was providing support.

I was provided support and that is the way I grew.

Nothing fantastic happened that I could really share with you.

All the students in Research College

that you have taught or have been acquainted with,

can you name a few who are inarguably exceptional

and what qualities did they have

that you want current or new researchers to imbibe?

Yeah, I can say the following,

Professor Shriram who is your dean administration was my student,

at the BTech level, he did his BTech project with me on Moire.

Well, he has scaled greater heights.

He is one person whom I think has got

a motivation and wants to do really very well, you know him right?

Yes, sir. P. Sriram. Professor P. Sriram, Dean Administration.

Administration. Yes, sir, we heard about him. Yeah, he was he was my student.

Then, another student who I remember very well,

I mean, only about one or two students only I want to mention,

is Krishna Kumar Shankar, who was completely involved in the Moire methods

in the initial stages when I was building up the laboratory,

and he was doing his masters by research,

and then, later on moved over to Australia

to do further research and PhD and then get into the academic line.

Day and night he used to live in the laboratory and I also used to join,

that is the way we built the whole thing, ideas were developed,

enjoyed the whole thing.

We had within the laboratory I think a dark room also.

So that, then and there we could watch the films,

see the results, print the films, everything we could do it,

because those days, it was.. that is the way it was.

Another person who I remember very well is at the PhD level,

one Mr. V. V. S. Ravindra - Varanasi V. S. Ravindra is his name,

he did his MS as well as PhD with me continuously,

and he has joined the TATA Consulting Centre

he is in one of the top positions in that place

and he is growing very fast.

Compared to others who join with him

he has grown much faster,

he is a very dedicated person.

He did many things, very serious person and unassuming person,

something like that, that is something which I like most.

So, these are the people who come to my mind immediately when I talk

about these students who worked with me.

There are many others, many, many others,

but, I think these three, I think, in particular I can mention.

So sir, how did your research work

directly or indirectly foster solutions

for the problems that were faced by the industry?

I dont know.

It's, you know,

industry grows from inputs from several directions,

any particular one research does not contribute to the growth of the industry.

So, we tried to do some research,

we try to do in a way, fortunately for us, in those days,

we could do research in an area of our own interest.

So, we could choose a topic we could work with it,

but then, that slowly changed, towards the end

when I was leaving,

the projects were dictated by the consumer,

and one had to dance to the tunes of the dictator.

So, that is the way it was.

So, that way we were working in the areas

which we liked most, where we thought we could contribute something.

So, it is in the area of fundamental work, fundamental research

where I had contributed a lot.

In fact, in mathematics, mathematical areas,

I had the difference equations I had spent a lot of time in those days,

for my PhD, it was difference equation methods,

but then, I completely left it behind.

I consider PhD is a kind of a stamp

which you get in order to say

that you are now independent, you can do independent research.

Because up till now

you are having a guide,

you are having people who are monitoring your work, saying

it's good or not good and so on,

but from that shackles you remove, you get away completely

and then, move to doing something independently.

That is a time when I started working in both Moire and finite element methods,

the numerical methods as well as the experimental methods.

I could start

dealing with

a few PhD students in this area,

a set of PhD students in the other area and things like that,

but then, we are contributing something to this research as such.

So, it manifests in the form of publications,

which in turn fosters further research,

that is the way I look at it.

Sir, according to you, what defines a a true researcher

or a true academician, give us your thoughts on that?

See, first of all one must have some motivation to do research,

I mean, you must think that there is something to do,

and you must also be willing to look at what has been already done.

He must painstakingly go through

everything that is already available in the area,

research is not something you

discover

already, and then try to say,

you are proving it.

When we try to pursue something,

you dont necessarily have to get the answer

which you are thinking is the answer,

that is not research.

See Wernher von Braun was saying this,

"basic research is what I am doing,

when I dont know what I am doing."

So, that is the way it is.

Research is something where you do not have

a final product in mind completely

for which you know everything and then, you say that you are doing research.

So, that kind of an ability must be there

and also,

failure in doing research is a stepping stone for something good,

because, when you have failed to do,

when you, when you are doing something and the result is not good,

you should find out why the result is not good. Many times,

it opens up fresh areas of research,

because it tells you

where you did not look at, therefore, it is also opening up another door.

So, it's very likely that,

you started working in one direction

and then, it tells you something else which is much more

fruitful, functional, very exhilarating, this is exciting, this is possible.

So, that is what I would like student to keep in mind.

You should be prepared to take failure

and look at the failure itself as a stepping stone for success.

So sir, as someone who shaped the department in its early years,

do you think there were things that you unable

to do at the brink of your retirement,

and you think that should be done in the future with the department?

Not really.

I was quite happy with whatever I did,

I was willing to retire too.

So, there is nothing wrong about that,

whatever was possible I tried to always do.

So, that way,

I am not thinking that it should have been done,

that should have been...I have I have no such feeling,

but, I am still willing to do many things.

In fact, I am trying to do it.

I am trying to do it in another place, another place

where I am visiting,

I have a couple of research scholars, with them I am doing it,

I am trying to do further.

If it is possible, I do it,

if I do not, if it is not possible, I do not want to feel bad about it.

Sir, what your thoughts on the flora and fauna in the campus during

your early years,

and how has that changed throughout this part of your career?

August 1, 1966,

when I was getting into the institute for joining the institute,

it was raining heavily.

In fact, I told them that one day before,

I told them that I wanted to join the department on August 1st,

I had written a letter, those days only letters

and what happened was, the previous day

was a convocation day

and the next day had been declared a holiday

and I had no place to go.

So, fortunately I had a

classmate of mine at the undergraduate years, who was an assistant warden in the hostels,

at that time he had joined Civil Engineering department and he was there.

So, I just dumped myself on him

and then, stayed with him for a couple of days

and then, on August 3rd I joined the institute

and then, immediately asked for accommodation

and they gave me accommodation in Taramani house.

Those days Taramani house

was a temporary accommodation, we joined there,

that is how it started.

Plenty of days, plenty of them,

many of them used to cross the roads regularly at nights

and the students also used to cross the roads at night very fast

and it used to be a nightmare.

So, that is used to be the...

So, how it is now I dont know, it should still be happening,

I mean, blind driving here is a very dangerous thing,

but, they dont know what they are doing, they try to escape.

The only difference is, the animals try to go only in one direction whereas,

a human being tries to go forward

and then, again go backward, this is the only thing, therefore,

you can take a good decision and then avoid the animals too.

Many things are here,

this is a forest, continues to be a forest,

and herbs and everything is there, everything is..you have to look for it.

Many things were here which you have to look for it,

you have to go and look for it, banyan trees were plenty.

In fact, I would say, Professor Sengupto was

very kind to make sure that banyan trees were not cut

when he joined as a first director

and then, made the roads turn this way and that way

so, that the banyans are really kept.

But, some my vague feeling is, apart from the banyan trees,

the entire place was just a lot of these thorny trees only.

I dont think we had such a huge beautiful campus like

what we have here with shrubs and things like that,

we have grown them subsequently, many of them we have planned.

Actually, we tried to live here better,

we also allowed the trees and other things also to grow better,

that is the way we have done; we are really doing a good job here,

that is the feeling I get.

Sir, so, as you said, the department when it started, it

did not receive German support unlike the rest of the institute,

so, what was the main source of funding the department

received and support?

The Indian government was supporting the institute anyway,

the Indian government

had planned to put up a Aerospace Aeronautical Engineering department.

So, there was always funding for the department and also,

the department was carved out of the Applied Mechanics department.

So, it was originally associated with the Applied Mechanics department;

the Applied Mechanics department was the mother department

which fostered the growth of the Aerospace department.

So, that way it grew.

But then, that was because

initially, the Aeronautics department could not exist under the

bilateral agreement between the government of Germany and India,

because it was a political reason

therefore, the German government could not afford to

consider developing an aeronautics department at that time.

But then, many things

that we needed for the Aeronautical Engineering department like

the wind tunnels and other things are already available

in the Applied Mechanics department.

Many of the students even today from the Aeronautics department

go to the Applied Mechanics department to do wind tunnel work.

Though, of course, subsonic wind tunnels and a few wind tunnel are available

which are developed by the faculty members

who joined the department subsequently.

And, the main the standard wind tunnel,

the original, one meter open floor wind tunnel was actually the German aid.

Sir, what can you tell us about

Professor Sengupto, the first director of IIT Madras?

Well, I had a very minimal, I mean, time,

when he was a director here.

I mean, he was a director for only a short time when I was there,

because I think, he became..he left the institute later

and then, the next director took over.

I only have this much impression,

he was a nice gentleman

who made sure that the

the infrastructure was built up and the Indo-German sponsorship

and the contract was established beautifully.

At that time, when I came in, there were something like

60 or 70 German professors in the department in the institute

and it was swarming with those people at that time.

So, that was the time

when Professor Sengupto was there,

and not much I can say about,

I mean, I dont have so much, so many memories about

Professor Sengupto, because I was a very young faculty member

and mostly I was concentrating on the local situation.

Sir, so, this is a, this is a question that I had.

So, when you, when you joined the institute,

how would you describe the way

the student-teacher relationship changed over the years in your career,

did you observe changes like how it all started and when you left?

Well, I started teaching Mechanical Engineering students.

First for Applied Mechanics,

there used to be about 60 students

because the Department of Mechanical Engineering had the maximum input;

even today it is. Even today, yes.

And I was asked to teach the first class to those fellows.

Well, I did not find any difficulty, I was going through it very well

and then, later on, I also was the

assistant warden in one of the hostels where they were staying,

they came to me and said,

"did you teach anywhere before?" That was the question.

I did not teach anywhere before,

I said, "no." "But, you looked like that you are teaching somewhere before,

you seemed to handle the class very well."

That probably was because their previous teachers were not that great.

So, I just turned out to be good, that is how I think about it.

Students were good, they were intelligent.

And, one of the five Srinivasans; there is J. Srinivasan, who is the

professor in mechanic engineering at IISC,

and he was the topper,

he was known as the S Grade fellow,

only S, every subject, every time, he used to be only S Grade.

So, that is the kind of person.

What I found was, in those days the students were

from various places in India.

The method of attracting students

through JEE platform was peculiar.

The only thing is that it had a slight legal setback,

but then, they were doing it in that fashion.

So, they were able to attract students from Delhi, Bombay, anywhere.

So, it was a cosmopolitan atmosphere that was there at that point.

Subsequently, I spoiled everything.

What I did was, I said,

"we have to have a programme where the nth rank student

should get the opportunity to choose what he wants

before the nth+1 rank student exercises in option.

So, that was the one which I insisted,

I think, when I started doing that the things came around,

and they said they would have a counseling and other thing...all those things

were my proposal,

and my chairman, Professor N. V. C. Swamy took it to the directors

and the chairman of the audit.

And then, subsequently in another two years the whole thing changed,

and they started asking the students to fill up the forms

and then tell what they wanted

and then, in two days they will

put together everything,

go to all the institutes, everything, pool together every information,

and then start

giving the students what they want, depending on their choice

as well as on the availability.

So, these are the things which happened.

Somebody was mentioning,

if you do like this,

people from the South will like to go to IITs in the South

and North..maybe that was happening.

So, that is the difference that started settling in here,

but I think, that is changing now.

But as far as the students are concerned,

they are good students,

but then, when the number increased,

I find that the

the brilliance of the students which I found in the previous sets,

the same kind of rewarding experience

I was not getting from the students in the later years.

It's unfair to them,

but it is what I felt about it,

but that is an honest opinion about me;

but that is a compulsion, political as well as reality,

that is due to that it is happening.

So, these things we have to live with,

we change our tactics,

we change our strategies and start meeting the situation,

and do better.

So, there is nothing wrong.

But basically, the students are students,

and IIT students are always a cut above the rest,

that is definitely issue.

Before you introduced the counseling procedure

of giving a choice, how was it before that then?

I do not want to describe it,

it's not good,

I did not think it was good. Okay.

So, where does IIT Madras stand

in terms of teaching and research in Aerospace Engineering

and why is this a good field for young researchers to get into?

Well, I'll split it into two parts.

Is the department good? Is the aeronautical engineering subject good?

Well, the Aerospace Engineering subjects are very good because

they consider leading edge research in every area,

because if an airplane has to fly, it has to meet a lot of conditions

that means, we have to be as precise as we can,

as far as the design is concerned.

Whereas, a like..a certain amount of leeway

we can give, when we come to other structures.

We can take care of,

I mean, we can increase and factor safety considerably,

and we can work with it,

because a little extra weight extra load it doesn't matter

in the others.

Whereas, in the case of aerospace structure or for example,

the aircraft itself, it has to be as light as possible and yet strong,

which means, we have to really use high end technologies,

understanding, philosophies in order to

design these things and make them work better.

So, the area of aeronautic engineering should interest

people who want to do research,

and it is not necessary that you have to only design airplanes,

you can design ships too,

you can design anything.

These aeronautical engineers are a selling product,

they can do anywhere, they can go anywhere, they can do anything they want

almost like that; because they have to learn

high end differential equations, solve Navier-Stokes equations,

and things like that,

which are pretty difficult.

The Department of Aeronautical Engineering, the faculty are good

because for the same reason,

they have to be good.

They, they just have to survive like that and therefore,

they have to learn this, they have to live with it and they will be good,

there is no question about that,

it is simply required of them and therefore,

they are dumped with that particular task, they will be good.

So, what was the last question?

Sir, where does IIT Madras stand in terms of teaching and

research in aerospace engineering?

Very good. I would say just very good.

Sir, last, last question.

Yeah, so sir we like to end the interview on the...

if, if you..if you would like to convey some words of wisdom

to the current students of IIT Madras

and the researchers here, what would you say to them?

Rote learning they should avoid, they should diversify,

they should engage in learning from others also,

they themselves wont be able to learn everything,

they should have an open mind.

So, these are the things which are essential.

So, once they do that,

intrinsically they are good, that is how IITs draw them

and therefore, they can make use of it.

I always say to students, "use your head."

So, that is my rule of thumb.

"Use your head."

Thank you.

Thank you so much sir.

Contribute
to the Centre
Monetary
Support
Digital
Material

< Back

Prof. V. Balakrishnan in conversation with Prof. Suresh Govindarajan

On behalf of the Heritage Centre, Professor Balakrishnan,

I would like to welcome you to this informal chat.

[Prof. Balakrishnan] Thank you. [Prof. S. Govindarajan] And, the idea is that we go over the history,

your history and your association with IIT Madras.

And so, we'll start with your life before IIT Madras.

So, maybe you can tell us something about

where you lived, where you studied and worked.

Well, I went to school at, primarily in Bombay and Pune.

After matriculation, I had a year of pre-university science

at the University of Pune

and then my father got transferred to Delhi.

So, I joined Delhi university in the Physics Honours Programme

in 1960 and '63, I finished my Physics Honours.

And, in '65 M.Sc. programme and then went abroad

to Brandeis University for a Ph.D.,

returned to India in late 1970

and then spent 3 years at Tata Institute in Bombay

and then joined the then new Reactor Research Centre at Kalpakkam

in the Materials Science division,

I mean what was then the Materials Science lab.

And, after 6 years there, I moved to IIT

and joined in 1980, and then of course,

[Prof. S. Govindarajan] So, RRC is now called IGCAR right?

[Prof. Balakrishnan] RRC is now called IGCAR;

after Indira Gandhi passed away, the name was changed

and it's the second research arm of

the atomic energy department after BARC.

Since you actually had a permanent job

at IGCAR or RRC as it was called,

how did you end up at IIT Madras?

Well, a combination of circumstances,

some intentional, some accidental,

happy accidents in some sense for me.

I always wanted to teach and in fact, in 1976

Professor R. Srinivasan

who was the Head of the Physics Department

invited me to come over here from Kalpakkam 3 days a week

and give a new course on the quantum theory of solids,

which I did during the January to April semester.

And the next year he repeated the experiment.

So, I realized that I really liked teaching.

So, when the opportunity arose I thought.

I would apply and I did and then I came here.

So ... it's true that I did spend

the first decade in a pure research institution,

but I felt always that something was missing, a crucial ingredient.

And then after coming here I realized

it was the presence of young students -

that's generally missing in research institutes

except for a few research scholars or very young scientists.

But being in an institution with

undergraduates and postgraduate students

and a large number of them is a different feeling altogether.

[Prof. S. Govindarajan] So, in 1982 which is probably a year or two after you joined IIT Madras,

I joined IIT Madras as an undergraduate

and by then you were already a legendary teacher.

And I mean it was my great regret that you were not teaching my class

because you were teaching alternate batches.

So, the odd years had you and your team teaching,

but how did you be ... I mean, have such a huge impact

in, I think a year or two?

I don't know if it was an impact,

but you have to remember that in 1980,

'81, the first 4-year batch - B.Tech batch - started,

till then it was a 5-year stream.

So, after I came over, there was this effort to rewrite the Physics curriculum

to compress all Physics so, to speak in 3 semesters.

Professor Indiresan was the Director

who recruited me and I remember even asking him

saying, because, I had been told by people in the Physics Department

that prior to that in the 5-year

stream they actually had Physics for 10 semesters.

So, I even asked him:

how do you expect all of Physics to be compressed in 3 semesters?

And his reply was: that's the mandate, you have to do it;

now everything else depends on how you do it

and surely you can communicate the essentials of a subject

to potential engineers in 3 semesters,

if you can't, it means something is wrong.

So, he was categorical about it, he said you should be able to do it.

So, a team of us: Professor R. Srinivasan who was taking the lead

and then Dr. Swaminathan, Ramabadran and myself,

we handled the first few batches of the new 4-year stream.

And, we wrote out the syllabus,

a curriculum which was used for many years

and we - our philosophy was roughly to say,

we avoid details and focus on principles

and we talk about single particle

or small number of degrees of freedom systems

in the first semester along with ... vector calculus.

So, essentially you are doing mechanics in vectorial form.

In the second semester, we went on to fields

electromagnetism specifically, with a little bit of optics

and in the third semester we looked at

a very large number of degrees of freedom.

So, after a brief introduction to Hamiltonian, Lagrangian mechanics

we did elementary statistical mechanics and ended up with

the fundamentals of quantum physics.

So, that was a very neat package

indeed, in 3 semesters

which kind of summarized what Physics was all about.

And, I must say that the students,

a much smaller number in those days,

I believe that in the early '80s the number was only about 240 or 260.

[Prof. Balakrishnan] Even less - 220 to 230, I think. [Prof. Balakrishnan] Yes.

And then it, of course, has grown since then

but they were split into 4 batches and the 4 of us handled these batches

more or less in synchrony.

And in - in fact, I would say in strong synchrony

because we discussed things beforehand.

And the students were deeply interested, many of them;

as you know very well, including yourself, many people went on

to form in - to careers in science and mathematics.

So, it did make some difference.

Even though I did not have you as a lecturer,

[Prof. S. Govindarajan] I got access to you know cyclostyle notes. [Prof. Balakrishnan] Yeah.

Your legendary cyclostyle notes

and can you tell us something about that?

Well, I - when I joined here, I had a room, an office room

which clearly was a temporary room because

it had a cyclostyling machine at one end of it which was not used

and it had apparently been junked or whatever

and it was still in working condition as far as I know

and there was a technician who would occasionally run things off on it.

And after a while I got this idea that

we could do this stencilling and type and cyclostyling ourselves.

And question papers in those days were cyclostyle,

220 copies made for the quizzes,

for the final exam and so on, and stapled.

So, we set up a kind of assembly line to do this

and I had an old typewriter with me.

So, we'd type on those old stencils, fill out all the equations

using those stencils and then run off;

I even learnt how to use that cyclostyling machine, how to run it off.

And then once that happened, it became easy to

you know distribute handouts, notes, and so on;

because things are much easier,

now we do it by just forming an email group and then

sending out PDF files or whatever.

But...those early days I think it did help

that students had access to notes

because we didn't, in this curriculum it was so mixed

that we didn't really use a single textbook

[Prof. Balakrishnan] and that caused - [Prof. S. Govindarajan] Actually, there isn’t one till today.

And, that caused a lot of difficulty because a lot of complaints

that there wasn't a single textbook from which we were teaching;

unlike the other IITs, I - I guess.

And we insisted that this course was so broad-based

that a single textbook couldn't do justice to it,

it was certainly at a much higher level than

Resnick and Halliday for instance or Bizer or anything like that.

And ... years later, I had opportunity to

compare this syllabus that we had laid out with

corresponding syllabus at Caltech and Cornell and so on

and to a great surprise it was -

there was a very very high degree of overlap.

So in that sense, we had actually modernized the physics curriculum

well before many other places did.

[Prof. S. Govindarajan] One of the funny things is

that with regard to laboratory duty it’s sort of

in - in the Physics Department - as you know most people are assigned

1 session or 2 sessions of lab.

And ... I mean you were assigned a few times,

but then it was decided that it was better not to give you lab duty.

[Prof. S. Govindarajan] Can you tell us what happened? [Prof. Balakrishnan] Might be

you know, realistic assessment of my talents as an

experimentalist which is less than negligible.

But I think for many years through the '80s,

I actually handled 2 theory courses every semester.

And one memorable semester in 1984,

I had 3 and with a little bit of - for a few lectures

I also handled a few lectures of, you know, 4th course

in the same semester.

I wouldn't want to repeat that experience again.

[Prof. Balakrishnan] Because it was a very heavy load. [Prof. S. Govindarajan] Yes.

But 2 was fairly routine and so on

[Prof. Balakrishnan] and then - [Prof. S. Govindarajan] Which is definitely more than most people

because it's usually 1 lab.

[Prof. Balakrishnan] Yeah, 2 and [Prof. S. Govindarajan] And 1 course.

one of them a 4 credit course - it takes takes away some time,

but towards the end in the late '90s,

I did get assigned lab courses, etcetera.

But... I think they found me more useful,

they found it more useful if I gave lectures on error analysis

and statistics and how to analyse data than to

actually go there and supervise experiments,

which I could do, you know, no differently from anyone else.

And one of the big surprises for me at least

is that you know a lot of stuff about materials science

and it is not something you work on day to day,

but I know that you know so much.

Oh. When I - my - my thesis is on elementary particle physics,

theoretical high energy physics of those days

S-matrix theory and field theory, trying to bring them together.

So, that is as abstract as you could have got in those days,

but then when I moved to TIFR, I slowly shifted

to many body theory and did work on the Heisenberg ferromagnet

and statistical physics and so on.

And then when I got this job at Kalpakkam,

it was specifically in the materials science lab.

So, the mandate was to try to understand

from a physical point of view,

fundamental properties of materials, specifically metals.

So I had to learn a little bit of metallurgy

and materials science to be able to work there

and contribute to the research programme.

So, that - my - initially I felt, I mean

this is a subject which would be totally uninteresting to me.

But as I got into it, I realized that it is

a fascinating subject and that sort of ... interest,

cultural interest has stayed with me, you know.

And among the many things you already mentioned that

you were very actively involved in setting up the

physics curriculum for the new 4-year programme in the '80 -'81,

but - but you kept introducing new courses.

So, can you tell us something about the course

called Classical Mechanics II which became Classical Field Theory?

Oh. That was again a bit of an accident,

the very first course that I taught here was in the January -

apart from the '76, '77 brief interlude.

This was a course on Classical Mechanics II

as it was in the M.Sc. syllabus then

and it was from January to J - April or May of 1981.

The class was small and what I didn't realize then was that

it had some exceptionally good students

including some B.Tech. students who were sitting in on the course.

And in all my innocence I went and asked them

what textbook they'd used for Classical Mechanics I

and they said Goldstein.

And I said how much of Goldstein?

And they said all of it

and I was surprised by this

that they had actually covered this entire course,

I found out later that that was a little bit of a hyperbole.

But...I decided that if they had done all of Goldstein,

then the next thing to do was to do - start practically at the last

chapter of Goldstein which is continuum mechanics

and then I looked at it

and said: continuum mechanics is kind of boring;

so, let us make it relativistic.

And then I gave this course on classical field theory.

One of the great advantages of academic freedom is that you could kind of

distort the syllabus in this fashion as you pleased,

the students seemed to like it.

So, I introduced special relativity and tensor calculus

and then did classical field theory.

It went down well, I even wrote a set of notes on it

and distributed it and then in the next few years

occasionally one would come back and give this.

I think it got formalized as classical field theory only much much

later after all of you came in and then

introduced a lot of general relativity and

really made it a proper course on classical field theory.

But I was happy to be able to do things

like spontaneous symmetry breaking

and the Higgs mechanism and so on,

way back then in the context of basic classical field theory.

And ... one course at least for me it’s memorable by its name

and it gave, I - I did not know what that was about;

it was called synergetics.

Can you tell us?

Oh. In the '80s,

when people were beginning to look at complex systems,

what today known as complex systems,

specifically Hermann Haken in Germany, he coined,

I think he coined the name 'synergetics' for this course;

where you have a large number of

effects coming together to produce -

causes coming together to produce an effect,

something like what we would call emergent phenomena

or complex dynamics and so on, today.

And there was a whole series of monographs published on

synergetics with collections of articles in by Springer.

And, I found that one of the lacunae in our M.Sc. syllabus

curriculum was that there was no room for critical phenomena

or phase transitions, the modern period of critical phenomena

nor was there any nonequilibrium statistical mechanics.

And...there was nothing on dynamical systems per se,

although chaos and non-linear dynamics had become quite

popular and they were very very actively

being pursued in the late '70s and '80s

and I thought why not put these together and offer an elective for it?

Strictly speaking it should have been 3 electives,

but the hassle of going through the Board of Academic Courses,

getting permission for all the courses would have been too much

and 3 would have been too much to float at one - one shot.

So, I put the 3 together into 1 syllabus in a little bit of

sleight of hand and called it synergetics.

And, it was approved by the departmental committee and the Board

of Academic Courses and then the course was floated as an M.Sc. elective.

So, for several years to successive batches of M.Sc. students as well as

senior B.Tech. students who'd opted for this course,

I ran this course by focusing on one of these three main topics.

So, it was three kind of different courses but under one umbrella.

Then of course, today we have separate courses on all these subjects.

So, I mean, actually, you have been involved in

creation of dynamical systems.

[Prof. S. Govindarajan] Now, that's two courses, there is advance. [Prof. Balakrishnan] Yeah, there is an advance.

And, then more recently you added two more courses, you know,

which in some sense, seems to have its origins in synergetics;

[Prof. S. Govindarajan] one is Physical Applications of Stochastic Processes... [Prof. Balakrishnan] Yes. Yes.

And Nonequilibrium Stat Mech.

[Prof. S. Govindarajan] And - and in fact, you have actually given NPTEL courses on this. [Prof. Balakrishnan] Right. Right.

So, can you tell us how your NPTEL courses came about,

especially the first two which I think are

wildly popular, I mean to say the least.

For entirely accidental reasons, as usual,

this was around the time that I was actually retiring from the department

formally, a little later in fact, when I was already on ...

[Prof. S. Govindarajan] But your classical physics and quantum physics was given to a real class.

[Prof. Balakrishnan] Yes. [Prof. S. Govindarajan] You were still. They were all.

Yes, they were given as courses

as you know we had a minor stream

which Professor Ananth had proposed early

and the minor stream started off by saying

the physics minor stream, the proposal was 4 courses;

all 4 generally M.Sc. electives.

So, for a few years it was a little chaotic

because different people who would take

different courses or float different courses among the electives,

depending on the interest of whoever taught the course.

And the course wasn't receiving its

due attention from the undergraduates,

it wasn't being opted for as a leading preference.

So, the department decided to do something about it

and then they revamped it,

there were only 3 courses, I think, now...

[Prof. S. Govindarajan] Now, it is 3 but it started off as 4 [Prof. Balakrishnan] Right.

[Prof. S. Govindarajan] with 2 core. [Prof. Balakrishnan] Right.

So, my suggestion at that stage was

to formulate two new courses altogether for the minor stream

and then have the remaining course of two courses

taken from the list of M.Sc. electives.

And the two basic courses would be an overview of classical physics

and an overview of quantum physics, that was agreed to.

And, then I wrote - helped write the curriculum,

the syllabus for these courses

and then it was suggested that they could perhaps be recorded,

that I could give the courses for the - when they were given the first time

and they could be recorded and that was done.

And that was intended entirely as a recording for the local area network,

for internal circulation alone.

They got recorded and I get these series every day and then I decided

just give it to the student representative

which was done and I forgot about it.

And, then when NPTEL came along a few years later,

I was asked whether these courses could be put under part of NPTEL

and I readily agreed because, I didn't see why they shouldn't be.

The only thing is I didn't edit them in any way because, I realized

that to edit an hour of lectures takes 4 hours of work

and that was too much.

So, I said warts and all, let it be there and then, of course,

if there are mistakes in it, it will be detected by the students

and kind of self-corrected and that is how it's remained.

I did do one or two more courses of that kind and then

the last few were recorded, even them -

all the courses I have given there have been

[Prof. Balakrishnan] courses to actual classes. [Prof. S. Govindarajan] Yes.

They happened to have been NPTEL courses which were recorded,

[Prof. Balakrishnan] but they... [Prof. S. Govindarajan] Except for the series you have for high school students

[Prof. S. Govindarajan] Yes. [Prof. Balakrishnan] which is different in character.

[Prof. Balakrishnan] Can you tell us something about it? [Prof. S. Govindarajan] [inaudible] together.

The mandate there was to do half-hour modules on 11th standard physics

and on 12th standard physics in two different courses

and they were supposed to be half-hour modules.

Hm...I was able to do the 11th standard,

but I still haven't been able to do the 12th, yeah.

And ... you started writing articles for this

nice journal of education called Resonance

which is started by the Indian Academy of Sciences

and I really like this series called What Can The Answer

Be and I think of it as vintage Balakrishnan.

In some sense can you tell us a little bit about What Can The Answer Be?

Well, Resonance started in 1996

and they were looking for articles at that time

and one of the thoughts I had was supposed to be pedagogical articles,

supposed to interest students in science and mathematics.

And ... I was on the editorial board at that time

and one of the thoughts I had was why not

put down some of the useful tricks

that one uses in teaching these courses,

kind of heuristic arguments which could be made rigorous subsequently

after you guess the answer into a systematic set of articles on this.

So, I started by writing 1 and then it grew to 2 and 3 and then 4

and then went on for a few more and I titled it What Can The Answer Be?

The idea being - the philosophy being that you

[Prof. Balakrishnan] use very general arguments such as linearity, superposition, [Prof. S. Govindarajan] Isotropy.

scaling, isotropy, homogeneity, dimensional analysis,

order of magnitude estimates and so on;

all the tricks of the trade of a professional scientist

trying to guess the answers to questions.

And then show that it is indeed the the rigorous answer or whatever.

You can move this up to a point, but I found to my great surprise that

you could illustrate fairly sophisticated concepts like

the reciprocal basis for crystallography

not just in 2 and 3, but in n dimensions.

You could then go on to infinite dimensional

Hilbert spaces, vector spaces,

you could talk about basis sets and change of basis

and the idea of completeness and over-completeness, etcetera.

So, fairly sophisticated concepts could be brought in

from very elementary considerations and that's how this series grew.

I must say I regret not having contributed

Collections

Tour the Centre

Oral History Project

Letters from the
Heritage Centre

Chairmen & Directors

Events & Activities

About the Centre

Distinguished
Alumnus Awards

Useful Links

Oral History Project

Oral History Project

Oral History Project

Oral History Project

Oral History Project

Oral History Project

Oral History Project

Oral History Project

Oral History Project

Oral History Project