Prof. S.N. Venkatarangan in conversation with Prof. Usha R
Good afternoon, Professor Venkatarangan.
Thank you. Thank you very much Usha, thank you. So,
on behalf of the Heritage Centre, I wish to extend a very
warm and affectionate welcome to you.
Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you. And thank you
very much for accepting to join this
Oral Heritage History Interview
and conversation and I am a highly honoured.
And it's a pleasure for me to engage
with you in this conversation.
Thank you. And I am sure in the next 50 to 60 minutes,
we would have learnt a lot about those golden ages, golden age
of your career in this department and in the institute.
And- Yeah, yeah, thank you. Thank you very much.
So, I will first start with a brief introduction about myself- Ok.
And how I joined the institute. Yes.
I was a graduate B.A.
Mathematics from Government Arts College, Coimbatore.
And it was about 18 years
when I completed my graduation.
It was an exceptional thing because
those days, they were very strict
about age restrictions. Yes.
But there were some special cases.
Where they exempted people who were highly motivated and then,
they allowed them by the Director- Ok.
of the Director of Education,
school education and we were asked to complete
our SSLC and take our graduate course.
So, I did my B.A. Mathematics at Government Arts
College at Coimbatore, it was B.A.
at that time not B.Sc., B.A. Mathematics
and then, I got a first-class rank.
And then, I wanted to join B.E.
because at that time, there was a clamour for B.E. students
and therefore, I wanted also to join, but because of
financial circumstances, I could not join
and it anyway it was my ambition
to join some engineering college
and become a graduate in Engineering.
But my uncle advised me at that time because of financial reasons
to become a teacher B.T. was only a 9 months course, Bachelor of Teaching
so, he said you join
Ramakrishna Vidyalaya at Periyanaickenpalayam
and I joined there and then in 9 months I completed my B.T.
at Ramakrishna Vidyalaya Periyanaickenpalayam
in English and Mathematics.
Two subjects we had to take and English and Mathematics.
Then, I joined as a teacher
in Municipal High School, North Coimbatore
and I was there as a B.T. assistant for 5 years.
1957 to 62, but at that time, I had always been aspiring to be
a graduate in Engineering so,
there was no other option, but to go for AMIE,
that was another avenue which was available to me
and so, I was earning and learning also at that time.
So, I was doing my AMIE course
at a Institute at Coimbatore,
at a private institute at Coimbatore.
And I was the only one who passed
a section A of AMIE.
In the first attempt from that institute.
And then, I was interested in doing section B
and becoming an Engineer.
So, when I took leave for section B,
from the school, at that time, I was interested in doing LE also,
Licentiate in Electrical Engineering because AMIE I have passed
so, I thought let me do LE also simultaneously
so, I came to write the LE examination in Central Polytechnic here.
At that time, there was an advertisement in the paper about IIT Madras
and then that year, they said that
they will admit students for Mathematics.
This was which year? So, pardon.
Which year was that? That was 1962.
1962. 1962, 57 to 62 I was a BT assistant.
62 I came here to write the examination because
it happened to be the date of interview here at
IIT Madras also was happening to be the near 1 or 2 days near
so, I stayed here and then I came to the institute for the interview
and that time Professor Sengupto was the Director
and Lakshmanaswami Mudaliar was the Chairman at that time.
And then, I went for the interview and there was the big hall
and that was in the now housing Civil Engineering Department,
there the Director’s Office was there and there was a
long table and all that which I have never seen in my life
till that time because that was a very big table and then,
about 40 or 50 people will be sitting around and then,
we were called in for the interview
and luckily only five people were selected.
And they said, of course, we told them that it will not
be possible for me to do the
thing here because I had some problem
with finance, and they said we will give you scholarship
and so, all the five of us were given scholarship
and I think it was the same with the Physics and Chemistry also
that was the first batch at that time.
So, we joined here and at that time, we were not having a
separate department, we were housed in some three or four rooms
in the HSB. So, this interview is for
admission into Mathematics Department? Into Mathematics.
For graduate programme?
Ok no, for the Mathematics they gave M.Sc.
Entrance, for entrance there was a interview, oral interview and then,
they selected based on the. Ok.
Performance in the interview. Ok.
There was no examination at that time. Fine.
At that time, there was no examination.
And so, five of us were selected.
And then, we continued here completely and then in the year 64,
we got our M.Sc. degrees.
And then because I had taken leave from
the institute from a municipality at Coimbatore as a teacher
so, I went back and joined there and then, Professor Nigam had
joined in the department. He was the role model for me in teaching
as a matter fact possibly you must be knowing. yeah
That he was the role model for many people
who wanted to be good teachers
so, we became good teachers only because of him.
We used to enjoy his teaching and he used to have classes
even after the college hours at that time. Yes
In Hydrodynamics. Yes.
And then, we used to go and meet.
So, there was plenty of give and take between
the students and the faculty at that time
because that was about one;
one year since he joined, at that time,
Professor Srinivasan was the head,
S. K. Srinivasan was the head.
Then, after I joined there, the DOO who came to see me
he said better go and join for Ph.D.
and why did you come here unnecessarily
as a teacher wasting your M.Sc. degree.
Then, he I-I appreciated him,
and he said I will get you leave and so, you go and join.
When I came here, the date was over.
Date for applying for Ph.D. was over,
but then, Professor Nigam took me to Professor Sengupto and
said that he is our student, one of the best students here
and I would like to take him so, he has not applied, already one,
one week has passed, then he said it doesnt matter, let him apply
now and then, I was selected. Oh Nice.
That time and then, of course,
I told Professor Nigam about my family circumstances and all that.
And the next year, after I joined as a Ph.D. scholar,
he took me on the staff.
As a Senior Technical Assistant.
The lower most possibly in the department at that time.
Ok. But anyway, I was very happy because I could get some money.
Ok. And then, help my family that was how I joined the department.
And then slowly I had a good reputation of being a good teacher
because I used to follow Professor Nigam and
he used to give me a classes
and whenever teachers were about to go,
I was waiting for them to go.
And then, whatever classes they were taking, I will take from them
and then, go on teaching and so, like that;
though I was a Research Scholar for one year,
I could go on teaching even at that time itself. Ok.
With the permission of Professor Nigam,
I will go and teach the students
in the absence of the teachers and that is how I entered
into the department as a Senior Technical Assistant
and then, slowly I went up
the ladder and retired as a Professor in 1997.
Ok. 97 and 90 till 98, there was a extension for me 98
June I think, 98 June I retired. From the institute. Ok.
So, that is how I got into the institute.
And of course, my ambition of
becoming an Engineer was not satisfied,
but coming to an Engineering College
was satisfied. Satisfied.
And I used to get paper for correction from AMIE.
Ok. Where I had completed my course.
So, they just followed me and then,
I was getting paper correction from AMIE. Ok.
For for section A students in Mathematics. Ok.
So, I used to do that. Ok.
So, that was how I entered the institute,
and I had a very pleasant experience.
All through.
Ok. So, as a Ph.D. scholar with Professor S. D. Nigam.
So, what were your experiences, how how was
I mean what was his approach in-
No, he was. -moulding you.
Yeah, yeah, no, not only moulding me, moulding many people. Ok.
When he came from Kharagpur, he came from Kharagpur IIT.
At that time, we were all thinking about
only the previous staff member
S. K. Srinivasan and others, but when I joined under Professor Nigam-
Because Professor Srinivasan had already taken Research Scholar
so, he did not want to take me at that time, he said you please ask
Professor Nigam so, I asked him. And then, he took me.
As a Research Scholar.
There were three Research Scholars with him
at that time and there were many other
staff members who were interested
in doing research under him
though they have not registered at that time,
even Srivastava and other people.
So, when all of us we will meet in the evening,
every day we will meet in the evening
by 7:30 after our food in the hostel,
we will come here and
Professor Nigam also will come from his house
and then, from 7:30 to 9, each one will tell whatever he has read
and found interesting, he will present it. Ok.
In the seminar room of the department.
And so, the department will be active till 9 O’ clock.
At morning 7:30 or 8 O’ clock,
Professor Nigam will be there before we come from the hostels,
he will be there. Ok.
So, he was such a nice man and at that time
there was not much of journals which are available in the library
in the fields in which he was working- Hydrodynamics particularly
So, but he had a interest in collecting all the paper
and so, he used to have a bundle of papers collected from
some persons and he had to return them.
So, we used to copy those papers of other authors in Hydrodynamics.
And then, we will be at the time of copying, we will be
interested in knowing what they have written and all that.
Right.
So, that is how we started and then one day he will say
you take up this paper and present it here.
So, like that he used to ask the students.
He will never give the topic of research to the students.
The students have to find it for themselves.
So, he will say if you find this interesting, go ahead,
see these journals and then, read and present it here.
So, I used to work in liquid helium also.
Ok. I mean in the beginning.
Liquid helium and then, stationary principles, all those things, but then,
he left us completely free by that time I became
a staff member also so, it was part time for me.
But anyway, he will not leave if we present something
to him one evening, the next morning he will come and ask
what did you do about that?
Have you found out the answer for my questions?
He will come to my room and then ask.
Exactly. What so, that is how he started.
The creating enthusiasm in the students.
By his enthusiasm in the students.
Exactly. That is what he used to do.
That was how he motivated us.
And then, we will go and tell him sir, this is the field,
I feel that there are some interesting things
which are here then, he will say please proceed ahead.
And then in the seminars, we will present
and then, he will say take up this topic.
So, go on doing research.
So, that is how we started with that.
So, there was the topic of research that I had
was on the use of local potentials.
As in chemistry, there was a Prigogine,
Ilya Prigogine by name.
And he was a Nobel Laureate.
He had come to IIT Madras also. Professor Prigogine
had come here. He is a Chemistry Professor of Belgium
University and he had come here and I was interested in
doing work in his field and so, I had done some work already
and then, Professor Nigam said this is the best time.
Ok.
So, he is coming to Maths Science so, we will invite him.
You present to him whatever you have done
and then, we invited him here and then,
he used to come here in the evenings and discuss with us
and then, he found that two paper that we had done in his field,
were very interesting and he said if you permit me,
I will present it in the Belgium Academy of Sciences.
On your behalf, you need not come, I will present it.
So, the two papers that I had first were presented by
the Nobel laureate in Belgium Academy of Sciences.
Who is the Nobel laureate?
Prigogine, Ilya Prigogine, Thermodynamics man.
Oh, oh. Thermo.
See he was a student of De Donder and other people
and he said Thermodynamics actually the state of any system
can be defined in three or four ways so, one is
equilibrium state where everything will be a constant
at every place here, it will be a constant
irrespective of its position and time and all that.
That is equilibrium dynamics. That was the thing
which was being taught in the schools and
colleges at that time. And then, the system that is next
is what is called as the stationary state.
Or steady state.
In steady state, the temperature everything will be depending upon
position not on time, position not on time.
So, they will be coordinates of position
and then, the other non-stationary state is one
where you have position and time coming into play.
So, if you are going to study systems,
the systems will not be always in equilibrium,
every point in the world will not have the same temperature,
same pressure etcetera.
So, people thought thatTthermodynamics
which was being taught was dead
completely and it is useless.
And so, Prigogine took up,
Prigogine and his student Glansdorff of Belgium School,
they took it up and then, they said how it can be modified
to accommodate the steady state and the non-steady state.
These were the three states and of course,
the turbulent state was beyond that scope,
it was not in the local potential area,
but turbulent state was completely different and
that was discussed by Landau, Landau and Lifshitz of Russian School.
So, this was when I presented it to him,
and we had applied it to problems in tThermodynamics
in Heat Transfer, in Boundary Layer Theory
and instability of systems Chandrasekhar’s Field.
So, these four problems I had tackled using his method.
Ok. What is called as the local potential?
The main idea is which is the system may be
completely different at different places and different times,
but when you take delta t time like Newton’s method
so, there will be a local potential for that.
So, there will be an upper one and a lower one
and so that is how they built up what is called as
the concept of a local potential.
And then, when he presented that paper,
the two paper were accepted and then,
those were the two papers which I published
along with Professor Nigam in the first stage,
beginning stages and it was quite enthusiastic work for us.
Oh, Very nice.
So, that is how we started and continued with that.
Ok. And then later on, when I completed my Ph.D.-
So, how long did it take?
It was. For you to complete?
Because I became a staff member
and I want to tell you also another thing.
When I became a staff member at that time,
we had about 60 students in a class
and the B.Tech. students were divided into 4 or 5 groups.
And simultaneously, four teachers will be teaching.
And so, I used to take one section and then,
parallely there will be-
So, you mean to say- 4 others.
Class strength was 15.
For? You said 60 students would be divided into 4.
No, not 60, 60 into 5. 300, around 300 B.Tech. students. Ok.
B.Tech. students will be in 4 or 5 batches. Ok.
And then, one will be under my charge. Ok.
And that will be correspondingly my colleagues will be taking 5.
Yeah, I understand. 4 more sections or 5 more sections
and so, we used to meet together and then,
discuss about and what what happened was
that some of the students felt that
they could come to my class because that was divided
already by the academic section and so,
they said sir, we would like to attend his section and
it was not possible.
So, what was done was,
they went to the Head of the Department So, what was done was,
they went to the Head of the Department
Professor Nigam and said sir, we would like to attend
his classes so, please reorganize.
But all the other people were also asking and then,
they say they went to the Director also at that time
and then, they said that what should be done?
Ofcourse, not that they were against the other teacher,
but they said I we like the way the he teaches
that is what they said.
And then, he said if you are interested then, come after the
school college hours and then by 5 to 6:30
I will be teaching in the Central Lecture Theatre
and all the students of B.Tech.,
most of them who were interested
will be coming and joining.
So, like that I used to give.
Ok.
So, that was one of the things which prompted me
to become a very good teacher, if possible,
that is how I started.
Most of the things I learned by teaching the students.
Every year when I teach a teach the students,
I used to teach it in a different way.
Because I know the difficulties of the students who have
done the previous examinations, they would have come and
told me sir this is how I understood, but the next
time when I teach, I will see that that doubt
will not come to anybody in the class.
So, that is how I improved my teaching.
So, I was a teacher, but also, I was a
student at the same time. Yeah, yeah
So, that is how I enjoyed teaching in IIT
and more most of the things were very simple,
the students used to ask me why is 0 by 0 indeterminate form?
Why is infinity minus infinity indeterminate form?
Why is 1 to the power of infinity?
Because 1 to the power of infinity 1 into 1 into 1
any number of times is 1 only,
but 1 to the power of infinity is indeterminated
you can’t find the value why?
So, I used to give them practical examples
of infinity minus infinity, how it is 4, how it can be 5,
infinity minus infinity can be 6, how it can be 6
so, I used to construct and give them very simple examples
that is why the students are started liking me.
Ok.
They said sir because we did not know all these things,
my teacher also did not teach me all these things,
but this I learnt by thinking about the whole thing and then,
wanted to give them some examples.
Ok.
So, that is how I did that. Ok.
So, the teaching was in a way a learning for me. Ok.
To become a very good teacher. Ok fine.
So, that is how I used to spend my time
and after that of course, M.Sc. courses are also there
and there were some Engineering students who wanted to take
some courses under me
because Professor Banerjee was teaching
Electro- Electromagnetic Waves and there,
they had the operation of delta coming in, del operator
so, they were saying sir, divergence,
curl and gradient and all this we are not able to understand,
can you please? Then, I said first I should get
the permission of Professor Banerjee
because I do not know what he is teaching you and all that,
but I must concur with him so, then they said
you contact Banerjee, Banerjee told me these are the things
which the boys, I am using for the boys.
Then, Professor Nigam said you please take a special course
for Electrical Engineering students outside the class hours
and 5 O’ clock again Central Lecture Theatre,
the Electrical students will come and I used to tell them
what is meant by the operation del when it
operates on a scalar, on a vector as a dot product,
as a cross product, I used to tell all these things
and in the process I learnt many things. Yeah, yeah
Which because I had to explain to the students in a clear way
and so, I had to deeply think about that and then,
find the applications, the AMIE that I studied was very helpful.
Because at that time, Engineering applications were
there in AMIE Engineering, Electrical Engineering applications.
So, I used to teach the students when they came for knowing
the operations of del and all that, where do you get this?
In Electrical Engineering.
In Hydrodynamics, where do you get that? For Civil Engineering.
So, that is how I used to attract the students
by giving them some practical examples
in their own fields so that is how- That is interesting.
I became a a good teacher. Ok.
And when I joined the department.
I will tell you that there were no,
you the the only slide rule was made compulsory
for the students, the Engineering student must buy the
slide rule at that time. That was 1967, 68 and all that.
And there was a big model slide rule in our department
which was under my custody.
When I joined as an STA,
I they were they asked me to demonstrate
how to use the slide rule for multiplication and all that.
And then slowly, after 2 or 3 year the slide rule became
obsolete and then, you had the CAN calculators.
And when the CAN calculators time, we had Brunsviga.
From Germany, there were in the lab Brunsviga
calculators were there and Faceit, Faceit calculators
and I was appointed there as a person in charge.
And then, the boys used to like it very much because
it has to play with the- Yes.
machines you know?
So, they used to play and come and play and then, do
Mathematics, numerical methods at that time.
So, Professor Subba Rao was also there. Ok.
So, he will give some problems and he will say
Venkatarangan will be in charge, you please go
ahead and learn from you.
So, they used to come, and do numerical methods.
And calculate and all that.
Of course, nowadays, then of course, we had
the computers coming in and after that the Brenziger,
I dont know whether they are in the here or in the workshops,
it must be a somewhere laying idle.
And all that.
So, that is how the progress in the department was there.
Starting from the slide rule up to the laptops
and desktops all those things.
That is how the development took place
and then, the teaching methods also changed
because the numerical method which was being
taught earlier was very slow, but now,
after the advent of the calculator and all that,
it was very quick so, the students also
used to do a lot of problems and then, we could also
proceed to more interesting topics in numerical methods.
That is how the syllabus also got changed
because there is a flexibility of changing the syllabus
by the department after some time in consultation
with the teacher so, we used to change the syllabus
and then, improved some new methods and all that.
So, that was how the teaching pattern also was changing
every time and I used to enjoy teaching in IIT till I retired.
Till the date I retired.
Ok.
So, I have heard a many of your students saying
how passionate you were about teaching.
Yeah, yeah And how they really wish to be a teacher like you.
Yeah, No, I I- I have heard many of your students-
No, no I I think you you are you are also- -telling me.
-student of Professor Nigam. Yes, I am also.
And everything came from him.
Yes, yes.
The way he explained. Yes.
That see the whole concept will be very small.
But the foundations that he lays,
it will lead you wow, what is the next thing,
what is the next thing.
Yes, exactly So, like that it will go.
Yes. And then finally, what he says
will be very easily understood by you. Yes.
Without your knowing, you will understand, this is so simple.
Yes.
So, that is how the whole thing will
So, when some people come to me for Mathematics even now.
I tell them very simple things, example things,
for example, complex variable, the complex integration and all that,
why complex integration, why do you do that?
Laplace transform, why do you study?
First, I tell them the need for studying something.
So, everything has to be studied because
you want to make it simpler so that you can so,
the Laplace transform does only differential equation
becomes an ordinary simultaneous equation which is very easy,
you are very easily able to solve.
So, that is how I create interest. In the students. Ok.
So, how did Professor Nigam’s training to you
towards research help you in the later years?
Yeah of course, yeah because my students also
whenever I was not like Professor Nigam,
I want to tell you very honestly,
but he was such a wonderful man,
he could have four or five research scholars too,
but I used to take only one at a time, concentrate on him
because along with my teaching work,
Yes. it was very difficult for me to go with
the two or three research scholar at a time.
But one at a time, but whenever I used to take a research scholar,
I used to consult him.
And then, I will say sir,
this is the topic I want to give him, I will always consult him.
This is the topic, would you feel that it will be good?
Then he said yes, yes, it is very good, it is very interesting,
you proceed. That is how all the research scholars that I took
I will always take his permission and then say this is
the field in which I want to work and then- Ok.
He will understand that and do that. Ok.
And the last student whom I took was Rajalakshmi by name.
You might have known her; she was the M.Sc. student here.
Ok. And Rajalakshmi worked on Adomian’s principle.
Adomian’s principle of solving equations
and Adomian because I saw in a review
that Adomian had given an idea that
this method will be working in all the fields.
Not necessarily in the field in which he has found it out.
So, I took that and then, Rajalakshmi did work on that.
And then, there was another scholar also Sivakumar,
he also did work on on this.
So, Adomian’s principle.
So, in in a way, he was a motivating factor
and also, a guiding factor even after my Ph.D., he was
guiding me in many ways. Ok, ok.
So, that is. Ok.
Excuse me, when did you get your doctorate?
72.
72. And when did you got promoted
from STA to higher level?
I dont remember,
STA that was about 6 or 7 years later.
As a Lecturer and then, Lecturer to Assistant Professor
and then, Professor I don’t.
Assistant Professor?
Assistant I dont remember the dates, but Ok,
I just want to remind you about one thing.
When Professor Indiresan. Yeah, yeah correct.
Introduced the ferric system.
Yeah.
And I remember, he wanted to have 10 periodicals.
Yeah.
I wanted to tell you that, you were in that meeting. Yeah, yeah
I I want to tell you that also, see Indiresan was a very nice
teacher, there is no doubt about it, but when he came here,
then he had, he wanted to implement some things
which were done at IIT Delhi. Delhi.
and then, we I think you were also there in the meeting
and some students were also, student representatives
were also there and then, he said that from next time onwards,
every week there will be a test for the students in Mathematics,
in Physics, in Chemistry in all the subjects every week.
This week whatever they have learnt, next week
they will have a test in that topic etcetera
like that he was telling.
Then of course, everybody was
keeping quiet because he was a new Director
and he asked what is your opinion?
Then I said sir, if you ask me frankly, I will tell you
otherwise I will keep quiet.
Then, he said you tell me,
you are supposed to be a very good teacher please say
tell me with that, then I opened out and said
sir, there are some topics in Mathematics
which cannot be taught in one week.
It might be one month to finish that.
So, with all your experience, please tell me
what is the topic that is? I said continuity.
Simple topic like continuity, the concept of this left limit,
right limit and then, the students have to understand this
and then, they have to do problems on that
and then only when they have mastered that,
you can ask them questions on that otherwise,
first day left limit, right limit and what will
they know about it?
So, there is no possibility of
having a test in some topics like that every week,
but if it is a month or so it will be good,
and I said in Chemistry also, it is the same thing,
I took was the liberty. I asked Swamy.
Someone tell you I said that.
I said sir, as far as my Chemistry knowledge
is mostly 0, but I will tell you from what I know
the halogen group and all that, there is a halogen
what is that chlorine, bromine, iodine and fluorine
and in this, fluorine is the most active one and
so bromine and iodine it goes on
and you have to study the whole group
and then only have common properties,
differentiating properties and it will take I think
quite a lot of time not one week or so,
it will be more than that and then, the students
who are there, then they said sir,
what Venkatarangan says is right.
So, let us not have weekly tests.
Let us have monthly tests.
He was very angry.
He was very angry, he was terribly angry.
And meeting was adjourned.
And then, the students-
Yeah. -apologized to me. So, they said sir,
you try to raise that hand and then,
it happened like this.
So, they so, anyway, so anyway we didn’t have
that the time periodicals. Ok.
Just usual. So, usual usual otherwise, they every day,
see every week there is a periodical means
they all the days they will be students
will be having periodicals only.
This week on portions on last week,
next week portions of the previous week and then,
final examination and there are many topics
which cannot be covered in one week.
In 3 or 4 lectures, how can you continuity,
differentiability, how will you do do that?
It is very difficult.
Even for M.Sc. students, now
who have understood all those things,
it will be very difficult.
If you ask them to teach.
It will be find difficult, you have to construct
examples and give them.
So, that is what I said. Ok.
And it is nice that you reminded me that was Ok,
then what was your reaction when the system
changed to a semester system?
No, the semester. There was a change, isn’t it?
No, semester system was good,
semester system was never bad.
No, no, I am asking there was a change
from 1 year duration programme.
And to a semester system programme. System programme.
Yeah yeah So, what was the reaction at that time?
No, I I was very happy about that, I was very happy
instead of hanging on completely throughout whatever
for for 1 year.
So, you break it into
two halfs and then, study, there is nothing wrong. Ok.
So, it was welcomed by students also. Ok.
Students also welcomed, and I also welcomed that. Ok.
So, that is quite interesting and so. So, then,
did you stay in the campus sir or?
No, I was staying in the campus only. Ok.
So, what changes do you find in the campus now?
Now of course, it has become slightly crowded
that is what I find, there are lot of buildings
which were not there earlier.
So, at that time how was it?
No, the multi-storeyed buildings
which have come up on this side when I came now, today.
This side I saw some multi storeyed buildings.
They were not there.
And it was quite calm,
and we used to enjoy the open-air theatre picture.
Because at that time, TV’s were not there,
TV programmes were not there.
And if he remembered, we used to enjoy
all the programmes which were given in open-air theatre.
And the college, the hostel functions.
The hostel functions will always be conducted here.
And the hostels will come here and then,
they will give a general entertainment,
we used to go there and sit, mimicries will be there.
Very nice, interesting programmes by all students.
And the students were very much talented I
of course, now also they might be talented,
but still, we were able to appreciate the talents
of all those people at that time.
Because we never had TV or anything,
only this was a recreation which was very nice.
And many people from my relative’s houses,
they used to come here on Saturday
and then, come for the programmes here.
So, they used to enjoy very nicely all the programmes.
Ok.
That was very nice.
And then, another thing also happened
in the mean while we had
Pakistan war or China war I dont remember
and then, 3 year B.Tech. course was introduced,
you remember that 3 year B.Tech.?
Yeah. B.Tech. course, a special special.
For I think this was for 3 or 4 years,
it was continuing and then, we had good experience
with many people who were coming from Army, Air Force,
there used to be a number of people who used
to come there, I used to teach them also. Ok.
Mathematics and so, that was very interesting thing also,
along with the 5 year which became 4 year later.
And then in between, there were 3 year.
Ok.
3 years course, for about 3 or 4 years it was there.
Very nice programmes.
So, those those students must have completed
their undergraduate programme
and. Yeah and then and then comes here.
Yeah, and then come here.
So, graduate B.A., graduates they will be coming and so. yeah
Or science graduates.
Some people were deputed
by the Army, Navy and Air Force. Ok.
They were also here.
They and they had lot of interest also.
Because they have to go back and join the
parent department and all that.
That's why they used to take lot of interest doctor,
professor one was Kala by name,
you I remember most of their names.
So, there were some girl students also who came.
And we enjoyed teaching those
three that was a separate course for them.
So, the syllabus was different and very nice,
interesting courses we had.
So, apart from teaching
and research, have you been a warden of a hostel
or some sports? Oh, no, no I was not ah, but there was
some special programme
for the we can’t call it as
SC/ST, we should not call it now as a SC/ST
special course was there, you remember that?
Sir, scheduled caste.
In B.Tech. in- Preparatory course.
B.Tech. Preparatory course
No, those students who failed in the entrance examination.
And were Scheduled Caste and Scheduled Tribe candidates,
they will have special coaching by the IIT,
those who have not a were not able to get into IIT,
they were called, given scholarships and then, they were
trained here in our institute, institute teachers
used to teach them and then, they will appear for the
entrance exam the next year. Ok.
And then, they will get qualified and come in
so. That was only in Professor Indiresan's time.
That was Indiresan and in and in fact,
I heard that Indiresan was very much upset by that programme.
Yeah. And I you must have heard about it.
It was only in his time that
some where the students were given
that B- B.Sc., Tech or something B.Sc. arts. Yeah, yeah.
yeah, yeah something like that.
So, he was against it completely,
but anyway because of force of circumstances,
he is a very principled man, Professor Indiresan
though in spite of my quarrelling with him,
but still I appreciated him because I was deputed
to Germany Germany and I was here to Peradeniya University,
Peradeniya University for teaching for 6 months.
I was there in Peradeniya University.
And along with me some Professor Venkateshaiah
and Sri Ramalu, all those people there were there
and from Chemistry Department, who was there
I don’t remember, Chemistry nobody came.
Only for Mathematics, Electrical Engineering, and
Bhattacharya also along with the next batch,
he went to some 3 or 4 people were deputed
from our department for the teaching
So, first I was deputed, they said first you send
some good teacher and then, you can continue
for three more semester so, first semester I went there.
And I taught in the Peradeniya University.
Ok. For the students there that was.
So, you said you you were you graduated as
the first batch of M.Sc. students from this institute. Yeah, yeah correct.
So, who were all the faculty members
at that time apart from Professor S. D. Nigam
and Professor S. Srinivasan? D. S. Subramanyam was
one of the faculty, D. S. Subramanyam.
He-he was one of the best teachers.
He was one of the best teachers though many people
do not like him because he never will look upon
look towards the students and then,
he will go on to narrating whatever he wants to say,
teaching them, but only thing is those who are in the
first four or five seats, they will be able to hear him
and the others at the back they never used to hear him,
but he was one of the best teachers that I could do.
In pure Mathematic, he was the best in our department.
And then, S. K. Srinivasan was there.
S. K. Srinivasan at that time, we had an understanding
with people in Matscience.
Professor Alladi Ramakrishnan was the chief at that time
there and Vasudevan was there,
and S. K. Srinivasan is the student of Alladi.
And so, we used to go to Matscience for seminars
and they will come and give seminar in our HSB 237.
Every week there will be one seminar.
So, one Friday, we will have here, one Friday, we will have in-
Ok. So, there were many people who were there,
from our department, there were two people who had joined there
by name Sridhar, who was an M.Sc. student here,
he did his Ph.D. there. Ok.
And then, Sunder, by Sunder is another name
and there was a third student of ours
another Sunder by name
and he is also there, Sunder was there and there was
one more person, they were all top-ranking students here
in Mathematics and they were taken by-
Keshavan.
Keshavan also. Keshavan, Keshavan right, I forgot
Keshavan French yes. Yes.
He was in France for sometimes,
Keshavan. Yes.
Keshavan is the other student,
excellent students, very brilliant students.
Keshavan’s classmate is the other person. Yes.
Sunder.
Sunder I don't know whether he is continuing here or not.
But Keshavan, Sunder, they were all there.
They were so, we had a very good understanding,
we used to go and give that is how I got to Prigogine.
When he came there.
Then Professor Nigam brought him
here and then, he presented my paper. Ok.
So, it was very nice.
Associate and then, we had
associated with the AC College of Technology also.
So, the Mathematics G. N. Ramachandran was there.
G. N. Ramachandran was there and some of his students,
he they used to come and learn Mathematics from
our department so, I used to help them.
So, he G. N. Ramachandran will tell you can help
get the help from these people.
And there was some Electric Engineering
staff member there who were
very much interested in coming and learning something
from our Mathematics Department say they used to
come here and learn and at that time,
when I wanted to ah, when I complete my Ph.D.,
there was no computer here, big computer system here
so, I went to Guindy Engineering College and then,
they used to help me at that time and then, AC college,
both the colleges I used to go and get the time in their computer
and so, there was a quite lot of understanding
between all the three colleges and then, the institute.
Of Mathematical Sciences also at that time.
Professor Vasudevan was there.
You might have heard about him. Yes.
very well-known figure Vasudevan,
Alladi's student and a colleague of him. Yes.
and S. K. Srinivasan’s colleague.
And I worked on his paper.
It was a dissertation at that time, M.Sc.
we had a dissertation also so, I was asked to go to
Professor Vasudevan and then, because there was
Quantum Mechanics which was being taught
in our department by S. K. Srinivasan
so, he said you go, and I worked on Yukawa potential.
Which was Vasudevan’s topic and I in in fact, it was
and I think most of the things were taken from his book,
Vasudevan’s book on Yukawa potential
and he was the external examiner for me.
When for M.Sc. he. Ok.
was there. Ok.
At that time.
So, we used to and there was lot of
other activities also which were happening at that time.
Which I don’t think now it is happening;
Professor Valluri was there.
Professor Valluri was there and he
he was the fracture mechanics man,
fracture mechanics and he used to give talks
and all the staff members were invited for that.
And we used to go there, it was a series of
talks about 10 lectures were there.
And similarly, in Physics Department,
Ramaseshan, Professor Ramaseshan,
who is related to C. V. Raman,
he he used to give talk in the Civil Engineering Department,
and we also used to go and attend.
And Professor Vasudevan of- Metallurgy.
Metallurgy; Metallurgy Department and his brother,
his brother was in Physics Department.
R. Srinivasan. R- R. Srinivasan, R. Srinivasan gave
talks on helium atom, hydrogen and helium atom
and at that time, Professor S. K. was giving a
a lecture to us on Quantum Mechanics
so, all the staff members used to attend,
and we used to go and attend there
and so, we are all students of R. Srinivasan also
at that time, they used to invite all the people
and then, we will go there.
And and another surprising thing which now is not happening
is one of the things at that time;
modern Physics was a topic for
M.Sc. Mathematics students.
I don’t remember; I dont think you remember that
Professor Ramji Rao took the class,
Professor S. Srinivasan, he took classes for us
on Modern Physics on. Modern Physics.
completely Modern Physics they were teaching
and so, we had we used to come to the laboratory also.
So, we used to have laboratory classes also
and we used to perform experiments along with
B.Tech. students, there were some separate place for us
and so, they were all C. K. Narayanswamy was in charge
for us, Professor C. K. Narayanswamy,
he was in charge of us and we used to
like enjoy it very much.
Professor Ramabhadran was there,
Ramabhadran was also there.
So, we used to enjoy and and particularly,
Ramji Rao’s, Professor Ramji Rao’s classes,
Ramji Rao was from Physics,
he used to teach Physics for us
and so, we used to enjoy and then, Quantum Mechanics.
Quantum mechanics was
taught by Srinivasan there in Physics Department
and by S. K. Srinivasan in Mathematics Department.
So, we used to attend the S. K. Srinivasan’s class
and then, Physics students will say
sir, his classes are very good.
R. Srinivasan class, you come attend
so, we will attend his classes also.
So, we used to of course, with his permission,
we used to go there and sit, and learn from Srinivasan.
He was one of the best teacher, R. Srinivasan is
considered to be he was the Deputy Director also.
Yeah. For some time of our institute, one of the best
teachers next to Professor Nigam, they are all in the same line
At that time, there were time rates M. V. C. Sastri
was in your department and Nigam from our department
and Rama- Vijaya Ramachandran in Physics
No, no Physics, Physics Physics was Rama.
Ramseshan, Rama Sastry.
Rama Sastry, Rama Sastry was there,
all the three they used to be
very friendly and your M. V. C. Sastri used to say
in the same wing as we were in the beginning stages,
M. V. C. Sastri lab was, catalyst lab was
in the second floor of our department where our
HOD’s office is there. Ok.
Just on the other side,
Professor M. V. C. Sastri, we used to meet him every day,
every day we used to meet him.
And then, we enjoyed.
So, all the three.
So, we had connections,
inter connections and all that.
So, what about the faculty members who joined
later say in the years of 80. Later I don’t have much of
80’s to 90's. Idea about them.
before you retired in the Department of Mathematics.
Because now, I you know now 20 years have passed
since I retired. Yeah.
I think 20; 20 years I have completed.
97 I retired. 97.
97. So, when I joined,
you were there, Yeah, yeah, that time I retired.
I retired at that time. Ok.
So, I don't know the present I except
Kulkarni. I think Kulkarni is also retiring you know. Retiring yeah.
Kulkarni is shortly retiring, and the
P. V. Subramanium has retired already.
Most of them have retired.
And only one or two whom I know Kulkarni is retiring
and I don't know Thamban Nair?
He is there. He is there.
Yeah. He is there.
So, some two or three people,
but I don’t have much of contact with them.
Ok alright so.
When did you become Professor?
Professor I was in 90. 97?
97. No not 97,
94 or 90.
You retired in 97.
Yeah, yeah,
90; 97 September I retired.
Yeah. But there was a rule that you should,
you can go on till the next academic year.
That is alright that is. That is how 90.
That is not counted. So, 94 or so, 94 or 93,
I don't remember the date.
I was an Associate Professor also.
See we had Assistant Professor,
Associate Professor, Professor like that.
I see.
So, myself and Raghav Rao came through all the steps
not jumping and all that STA, Lecturer, Assistant Professor,
Associate Professor, Professor so, like that all the.
So, you have been engaging all the time in teaching,
what were your hobbies then?
Hobbies of course, I never had I used to enjoy teaching only.
Teaching.
Yeah, yeah even now, I enjoy teaching.
Ok.
Even now, some students come to me from schools
of course, I teach them I say whenever I am here,
you can come, and get my help.
So, those who are known to me and near my houses,
they come and learn for 11th standard or 12th standard
Mathematics and some Engineering College students also come
and asking some doubts about matrices, determinants all these.
So, you whenever I have a free time, I
call them and then, I help them whatever doubts they have.
Ok. I help them.
Ok ok. Where you involved in I mean
teaching students for JEE?
Yeah, yeah,
it was there I will tell you.
See in the beginning
when we were in the campus so, at that time,
people from the campus they had our Director’s sons,
many of our Director’s sons, they used to come to me
and to get a like that and then, there were some other
staff members who were interested and saying sir, we will.
So, at that time, myself, Narayanan and Ramabhadran,
we were asked to help the students,
but the at that time, we had to get the special permission
from the Director because outside we cannot go and teach
in fact, there was one Brilliant Tutorials
you might have heard about that.
Brilliant Tutorials person came Taanu came here,
when I was a teacher here and then, he said
why don’t you come and teach me,
I will give you four times the pay that they are giving you.
I said I don’t want four times your pay and all that,
I don’t want to come there and teach.
Then I-I said if you want any help
go and get the permission of the Director,
Director has to give the permission, then only I can come.
So, he he knew that when he comes to the Director,
Director will not permit so, he went away,
but then, there were some staff members in the institute
whose children and whose relatives children
they were interested in coming and learning
from me and Narayanan and Ramabhadran. Ramabhadran
because there was a of course, I did not want to
go into this earlier, there was a questionnaire by Pandalai
when he was the director and he had asked the students
without mentioning to other staff members,
who are the best teachers in the departments?
So, in each department, each one was selected by the students,
by the the students gave their names and
my name was in the Physics.
Maths Department. Means Mathematics Department,
Ramabhadran's name was in Physics Department
and Professor Narayan’s name was
in the Chemistry Department.
So, I-I know the students
who gave because they were all very good students of mine
in B.Tech. and so, when they gave that name,
then there were he said that by
getting the approval of the senate,
we will present them with some memento and all that
so, that was circulated.
And then, there was a furor because
people said without asking anybody,
how did you ask the students to give
and then only the evaluation of teachers came up
so, then he said if you dont like that
so, let it be on record that these are the
three best teachers, let it be there,
I will not give them any token or anything like that
or presentation memento.
Then, the the other
the questionnaire came and then, there you
we were asked to give to the students and
get their response and all that that is how
it went on and at that time also,
myself, Ramabhadran see we were we were
teaching not for the sake of anything;
it was only because of pleasure in teaching.
And so, the staff member all of them they said that
they should be permitted to take classes at least for us
and Professor Pandalai's son was my student also,
he was there and he used to come and study with me,
many of the students the Kuriacose daughter
and your Rajaram, Rajaram’s two sons who were in America,
they came to me and they were learning
from me for JEE, they were coming.
And other some some staff members
here who were Mechanics and all that their sons used to
come and so, I was teaching them free,
but then, when they said that you should not be stopped,
then they were we said go and ask the Director because
there people are saying that we should not take.
So, the Director said we give permission to the three
to teach, but only thing is they should not go for setting
of question paper or correction of JEE examinations.
That's what the Director gave a ruling.
So, of that time, we started helping again
so, people knew about that.
So, that was how it was stopped and started again.
It was there.
So, what about your children,
what are they doing? Yeah, my son is a student of
your husband Vivekananda College, he did his B.Sc.
and he joined IIT for Mathematics and he got
the Governor’s medal in the year 92,
he passed out of M.Sc. Mathematics; M.Sc. Mathematics
and he is now the Executive Director
of Morgan Stanley in United States of America in New York.
So, from 92, he has shifted there, and he got his Ph.D.
from New York University and he is working on
Financial Management now.
Ok.
Near the time square in New York,
he is there as the Executive Director.
Nice. And my daughter is a Mathematics graduate
from Queen Mary’s College.
And she is the university first in Mathematics.
In that in the University of Madras
and she got all five centums in the subjects
complete and that is the university, first rank all through.
Oh very nice.
All the five subjects in the final year, she got centum.
Ok. In the Mathematics and she is
now a freelancer in Mathematical training.
And she is working in Bombay,
going to different places in the world, she is there,
and she is married to you you must be know him
there was a STA in a ; there was a STA Senior
Technical Assistant in Electrical Engineering Department
and his son is Kothandaraman Ok.
I have forgotten his name; he is no more;
he is no more he was.
So, so all the students of my and my grandson,
he is now with Sunder Pichai in Google.
Ok.
Google.
He has got his doctorate in Mathematics.
In Cornell University Ithaca.
Ithaca Cornell University,
he is there and. Very nice.
my daughter in law is with
Facebook Company there.
So, that is why it is still continues.
Yeah, in spite of me.
Yeah, so very happily.
Yeah, yeah tree of Ok,
the love for Mathematics, passion for Mathematics. Mathematics.
It still continues. Venkat Sir, you have been working for
the past 4-5 years, I mean we have been there for
the last 4 years; my granddaughter was the student
M.Sc. Mathematics. Ok.
She passed out in I think 2016.
2016. She did her fourth semester in Denmark, Copenhagen.
Ok. Her name was Parvati Thilakkan.
Ok. And now, she is throwing her Ph.D. in doubling.
[FL] doubling. M.S. there. Financial Mathematics.
Financial Mathematics. Yeah, yeah
Ok nice. That is how Mathematics connection.
Yeah, yeah Similar did not study in IIT Madras. [FL].
Do you have any suggestions
and advice to younger generation?
You know I don’t have any,
the only thing that I tell everybody is.
That no student is bad in Mathematics,
every student is equally good, only thing is
in the 4th standard to the 7th or 8th standard,
if there are good teachers who teaches them.
That is the stage where they get the fear in Mathematics
and what they do is whenever you give a problem,
they try to solve and look at the answer
and if the answer is correct, they leave it.
And if the answer is not there, they
change the 7 in the numerator and
4 denominator and then, go on changing it and
and that is how they get the fear,
the fear in Mathematics can be completely removed
if the education from the 5th standard onwards
to the 8th standard is taught by very good
and enthusiastic Mathematics teacher.
If it is done, no student will think about
fear in Mathematics.
That is my sincere opinion.
You; you have not you are written any textbooks?
No, I have not written, I have not; I will tell you
the reason why I don’t want to write the textbook.
The reason why I don’t want to write the textbook is
you you can impress the student, make him understand
it nicely when you are in one to one contact with him,
one to one contact, not one to two and one to three.
One to one contact if you have, the students will definitely
understand whatever you say, but if it is one to many,
then it is not possible and it can always be done
and I have got number of examples of students
who have done extremely well,
I I will tell you about an example
There was one student at Bombay
where my daughter is staying,
I used to go there in the vacations from
in IIT quarterly vacation, half year vacation,
I would go there for 15 days and that
boy was not good in Mathematics so, his
mother who was a colleague of my daughter,
she brought the her son to me and then said sir,
5th standard, he is finding it difficult.
So, whenever I used to go there,
this fellow will come for 5 days or 15 days
or 10 days and you know, he has got the
Harvard’s best medal in Mathematics.
Very recently.
Harvard’s best medal in Mathematics,
Harvard Universities and you know what has happened is
that fellow is very weak in other subjects
in English particularly and so, they
failed him and they said that this fellow cannot be
given, then they said as a special rule,
English is not going to matter much in Mathematics
though of course, he has to understand,
but he has done very good work in Mathematics
and so, we should be he should be given.
So, that is how he got the this last year or so.
He got that and then, he thanked me from there.
So, that boy from the 5th standard onwards
right up to the 12th standard, after that
he has gone Abroad, to the 12th standard,
he has been continuously getting my help
and I will always teach him in such a way that
it is a topic which is quite logical,
there is no question of mugging up anything or anything,
it is just logical, from this you get this,
from this you get this that is all.
So, that boy he used to appreciate
and then now, he has got.
So, like that there were four or five examples
of mine where students have done extremely well.
Even when I went to America now,
my old students had come and they have
thanked me for teaching them in Mathematics
because they are teaching Mathematics
to the students there, see that is the
so, I-I used to enjoy that very much
because whatever you have, if you transfer it,
then automatically they will pick up.
It's a nice subject, I don’t say that only
Mathematics is, but Mathematics because I know it,
it is such a nice subject and I don’t remember anything
now, I tell them very honestly, I don’t remember anything,
but only thing is the way it is derived,
I remember that. That is how you can make them
rid of the fear of Mathematics.
Ok.
That is. Are you invited to give lectures of the NPTEL?
M?
NPTEL.
No, NPTEL, I am not associated,
I think P. V. Subramanyam is associated with that,
but I I was not because I-I was never here in station.
Yeah, yeah of course, that was started after your retirement.
After my retirement yes, yes yes. Recently.
P. V. Subramanyam; P. V. Subramanyam was giving. Was given.
I think that was. Many of our faculty members have given.
Yeah, yeah that is right, I was I retired; I retired much before that. Ok.
Much before that I retired and then, I was in States,
every year I used to go, 6 months I will be in States
and 6 months here and when I go to States,
students will come from the Hindu temple there,
there is a Hindu temple in New York
and you say that Venkatarangan,
Professor Venkatarangan has that come here
so, alumnus of IIT if they want to meet him, they can come.
So, I will put that and then, there will be some
students from Pakistan, from South Korea,
they will all come to me with Mathematics books.
Sir, please teach me this, you will be surprised,
in America in Queen’s when I my son was there
so, he will put an advertisement by saying that this is
my father who has come from IIT Madras,
he was a Mathematics teacher and then,
those alumni who had been associate with him,
they can come and meet him in this address.
And the alumni will come, along with them,
there will be some people who will be coming,
and I used to teach Pakistanis.
I used to teach Pakistanis and South Korean students.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Korean students are good in Mathematics.
Extremely good in Mathematics,
their standard is very fine, extremely good
and they used to come and enjoy
and there was a very good school in New York
and just one student came to me
and there was some wrong question in the question paper,
I pointed out and I said this must be the correct question
so, you go and tell the teacher you please correct this.
And then, when he said that then you know the next day,
some five students come to me from the same school
saying sir, you please help me along with this boy,
you can help me and when I went to Dubai,
there was some student who was very weak in Physics.
And Physics is nothing but Mathematics mostly
your dynamics, statics and all that so, I used to go
and teach there that particular student
and then, he was very much interested
and you know he got 100 marks in Physics
in the next examination.
So, what I want to say is that if you take interest
in teaching, automatically that interest will definitely
create some flutter in the students. Ok.
And they will definitely, remember you. Yeah, yeah
That is.
One doubt from both of you.
Yeah. Has the
Astrophysicist Professor Chandrasekhar. Yeah, yeah
Has he visited Mathematics Department
after getting the Nobel Prize?
He to the our department you mean?
Yeah. He came here. He came.
Chandrasekhar was he,
don’t you know? 82 he came.
Yeah, yeah. That time he had not got the Nobel Prize.
No, Nobel Prize was given to him,
but it was proposed and then, it was given to
him next year or year or later.
83. Yeah, yeah, it was
in Physics lecture theatre, he gave a talk, I was there.
No, no it seems he seems to come again in 89.
89. And Physics Department seems to have arranged the seminar.
And Professor Majhi was telling.
Photographs were taken by the department.
I was not able to confirm it.
No, but he was there, I-I attended that meeting also
because I I had studied the book of Chandrasekhar,
there is a book on Stability. Stability.
Stability theory, there is a.
Yes. Big book on Stability theory, such a wonderful book.
Yes. So, because I had to take some problems from that
so, I worked in that book,
I had took some examples from that book
and then, I solved some problems using what is called as the
local potential method developed by Prigogine in Mathematics.
See this is how it happened.
I see. So, Chandrshekar has worked in astronomy also.
Yes sir, yes. Astronomy, black hole theory and all that way.
Ok. Yes,
So. I don’t have any other-
So, do you would you like to share some more experiences.
No, no not specially because I have already, I think
taken a lot of time.
Thank you very much.
Thank you. It was wonderful talking to you and we really-
In the last 50 to 60 minutes.
We really had seen and known the golden days of your career.
Yeah, yeah In Mathematics Department and this institute,
Thank you very much. Thank you,
thank you. Thank you all very much. Thank you.
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