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Prof. M.A. Parameswaran in conversation with Mr. Amudachary

Good morning sir.

Good morning, my name is Amudachary.

Amudachary your pet student. [Inaudible]

You are our guru.

Thank you very much. Philosopher.

Guide and mentor.

[Speaking in Tamil]

I am your friend. Professor in my course.

I am your friend.

Yeah, of course.

An elderly friend.

We are friends, we are very thick friends actually.

Now, it is my turn to question you for a change. Yes sir.

I was on your other side always,

now you are on the

side where we have to question you. Yes.

In fact, I have been given some more question by

your good friend our good friend.

I hope you won’t give me marks for my answers.

I will not give you. Great.

Briefly we would like to know your

experience before you joined IIT Madras.

Before I joined IIT Madras

actually I got my Engineering degree from IIT Kharagpur.

I belong to the 1st batch of IIT Kharagpur

1951 to 55 B.Tech.

honors it was called

my degree still a B.Tech. honors degree.

So, 51 IIT Kharagpur started

and it so happened that I was in Calcutta

in those days after my intermediate.

And we just applied and I got through

because in those days if you get a good

first class in intermediate

you could join any college in India,

any profession more or less.

If that is if you got 65 percent

or nearly nearing 70 percent in intermediate

you could walk into any any university in all over India;

you could walk in almost without much difficulty.

It was very easy to get into

the university studies in those days.

Nowadays of course, it has become difficult to the-

you get 95.5, 95.2 and things like so it's difficult.

So, I joined IIT Kharagpur

and IIT Kharagpur is just being built up like

when you join the IIT Madras it was being built up.

So, similarly IIT Kharagpur was being built up,

but we were in the same in the in a jail

the political jail Hijli Jail it is called

where the British used to keep the political prisoners

in Kharagpur, Hijli Kharagpur.

So, we had our classes there

and there was a huge hangar there with the workshop

and the workshop was full of

the World War 2 repairations machines.

All the German machines,

index machines and things like that

all mechanically automated machines

basically not the computer controlled machines,

but mechanical control machines.

Tak tak tak tak all cam control, right.

So, we used to work on that

and then we used to make drawings

and we had hostels which had no flooring at that time

and there was no window to shut.

So, when the monsoon came rain would come in,

but then of course, within a few

months everything got through

and the 1st batch was we were 180 students.

So, that’s how the IIT system started.

Sir excuse me, what were you doing before that?

I was born in a small village in North Malabar

a place called Payyoli

where later after my birth a long after that

P. T. Usha was also born.

So, I have the distinction of

being born in the same place

where P. T. Usha was born.

So, I had my primary education in Payyoli

and then I had my high school in is a town

a little North of Payyoli where my mama was staying.

So, I didnt finished schooling there I

because by that time I my

parents got shifted to Calcutta.

So, I went to Calcutta joined

South Indian school and finished my school there.

Then after matriculation in Calcutta in 1948,

I joined the Saint Xaviers College

for my intermediate science

and then after the intermediate science I

I got admissions to a Shibpur

the Bengal Engineering College in Shibpur,

but then I was a little underweight.

So, they said they would not select me.

Shibpur Papers Mills is there famous.

Shibpur Paper Mills or something is there.

Shibpur Paper Mills not there. Sorry.

Shibpur is near the botanical gardens in

Calcutta on the Howrah side

and Bengal Engineering College one of the older

oldest Engineering College

something like the our Anna University here

and thing like that

Guindy College Bengal Engineering College

is also an old college.

I got admission there, but then

since I was under weight I was a very

puny fellow in those days

and not that I am very tall now, but

atleast I am normal.

So, they would not admit me.

So, I continued 1 year B.Sc.

and by that time the

IIT Kharagpur came up and then

my parents also suggested why dont I join there.

So, I got into IIT Kharagpur.

So, the after 4 55 I passed out and

in those days like the present days you know,

people like to go to after just a degree

you go to America for M.S.

In those days it was a fashion

at least in the Calcutta side area

to apply to some German Company

and they would take you as a trainee

it was very easy to get into a German

firm as a trainee.

They would give you some

300, 400 marks per month,

it was good in those days

and they would look after you

and then after 1 or 2 years

they would even give you an employment.

Germany which firm did you go to?

I went to a crane making company called [indiscernible]. [Indiscernible] in Dortmund

where- we mentioned about Dortmund.

So, I stayed there for over- This is in Ruhr gebiet am I right.

Pardon. Ruhr gebiet they call it.

Ruhr Ruhr gebiet

So, there I was in the drawing of is for

two various or so then after that I

shifted to another crane company a bigger one called

Krupps company in North

on the North Sea area Wilhelmshaven, [indiscernible]

they use also used to make cranes.

So, I was working there

and at that time our old Professor R. A. Kraus,

Robert Kraus from

IIT Kharagpur, he had become the

the the German official in charge

for IIT Madras Scheme

and they we had contact with him

some 4 or 5 of us from the IIT Kharagpur

and so he wrote to all of us.

Professor M. S. Thacker is coming to

bought for an IIT interview

you all come down better come down and

its a good chance for you to get a job in IIT Madras.

So, we all went to interview there and then the

we naturally we got easily selected.

Sir, excuse me.

Yes. When you are studying in Kharagpur

he was a teacher there

his famous name in mechanisms did he-

He used to teach mechanisms,

but of course, he didn’t teach mechanisms directly

for mechanisms and all that we had one

Professor Nanjundesh Nanjundayya or somebody.

So, he used to teach us,

but he used to Professor Kraus

we built up the institute basically

IIT Kharagpur apart from the government side.

Because he brought in other German professors

and things like that.

Professor Kraus he had a sort of a fatherly figure,

we used to call him Papa Kraus basically

because Professor Kraus the

unfortunate thing is that he lost his son in the war

and the Mrs. Kraus and

Mr. Professor Kraus they were in China

in a college sponsored by Germany.

And then after that they joined IIT IIT Kharagpur,

they were actually employees of

the the Indian Government,

it was not under the aid or something

because IIT Kharagpur had UNESCO aid

if I have not mistaken and even that some

some English some UK based scheme

and we got a lot of this old machines from

the the the Second World War reparation

and all this we had a big

used for our workshop training.

Thing came- When you selected Germany who are the other people

who were selected with you and came time?

With me we were selected-

basically in my batch it-

we were selected-

we had one Dr. T. Ramachandran if you remember,

he was not IIT Kharagpur or something

Mithalarji, you remember Ramachandran.

He called thu. Thu.

thu. So, he was already a doctoring there

and he was selected also in the 1st batch,

he was working in Clausthal University.

He taught us Physical Metullargy.

Ah yes, he is a very good man personally

and he is of course, 3-4 years in older to me.

Then another man was selected,

but then he left in between

then along with me my class- Who is that?

I forget his name, he is not from IIT also, Kharagpur.

He didnt join IIT also he did.

One sur was.

My from my batch 3 others joined, 2 other joined;

one was Somashankara Das Guptha

and one Sumodh Majumdar.

These 2 were my classmates

and one Saradindu Sur was the 2nd batch.

Basically Sur and myself we

were in machine design area,

Das Gupta was in physical Metallurgy and

things like that and

I think Majumdar went over to hydro turbo machines.

He taught us.

I met this gentle men in

Dusseldorf in the Expo.

I see. In 1973 and 74.

He was in the Indian Export Council something.

He was in the Indian Engineering Export Council

Majumdar. Yeah

So, we all come came back in 61,

I joined Sur and I came back

I think Das Gupta came a little later.

He taught us metallurgy same.

Metallurgy. Physical Metallurgy he used to teach

metal forming and things like that I think.

Then we were of course,

in the MSB we had an office there

and we used to teach the 1st batch

and 2nd batch also we would

Sur and I have taught to Machine Design

and at least my good student decided

we that we were popular.

I was using his room,

I was permanently using his room

of my drawing design I have some elective, so

he was my guide for the design.

So, yeah I used to use your room in fact,

at at times I call it is your room or my room,

I was spending lot of time in that room

using the drafting board.

We didnt have sit in like today,

but they were very nice that’s where

you your role of helping us as a real guide you are.

So, then then basically what I felt is the

of course, then we had some problems with the

the 1st batch that is the

the the young people like that

we had some problems with the administration also

because we were

a little anti administration there was a group

anti administration and pro administration and middle group

and things like that and

some of us were in the anti administration group

when we were not very happy with these things there.

And since our background was from the industry,

we would go back to industry anytime we wanted and

so in when my bond of three years was over

I left IIT Madras in 64.

Along with us we also left at that time.

Sur also sur left a little later

and others left a little later.

So, I left immediately after 3 years and then

joined a company in in in Hooghly district,

Rishra again a crane maker

they used to make something electric hoist.

So, I joined there

and in between I acquired a wife called Mallika Parameswaran and-

Where did you get married?

I got married in Coimbatore Raja Street. 1965.

See 1965 and then from all the way from Coimbatore

I took out Rishra which was a very small town far away from Kolkata,

then the she how got used to the Bengal

semi-urban life not fully urban life, but semi-urban life in Rishra

and we spent 6 months there and

somehow I was not happy with the with the [inaudible]

Which was a sort of a Marwadi managed company,

nothing against Marwadis, but they are good

because they contribute a lot for the

industrialization and business progress of India,

but they have their own peculiarities

if your a straight forward engineer is

very difficult to work for a Marvadi

that’s my my experience in those days.

Nowadays of course, many Marwadis companies are very good

Birla is one of them and things like that.

So, and so I.

It so, happened that in 65 I have got a

I tried with KCP Madras for a job

they said they wanted some design man.

So, I joined KCP Madras in 1965

after exposing my wife to 6 months of Kolkata life,

she got used to Kolkata also very easily those days.

And 65, from 65 onwards I was in KCP

and then I used to come to IIT once in a while doing some

interpret the the project examination and

think viva voce and things like that

and then it so happened the

Professor Narayana Murthy asked me one day

why do not you come back to-

I told Narayana Murthy once in a while

that I am trying to leave KCP because the my young.

Blood. Young blood I was not happy with the

way KCP was also doing and so I wanted to change.

So, Professor Narayan Murthy said

why dont you come back to IIT

we are looking for somebody who knows

cranes and things like that.

And we have now a full fledged lab for that

professor was there.

So, then they have admission they came and then

I applied and then that this I was selected

when I was selected I told them that I am

on paper I am only a B.Tech. honors,

but I would like to register for my Ph.D.

directly without of you people ask me to

do an M.Tech. only then I will join.

Then Professor Ramachandran was good enough to say that

yes yes you have been an IIT Madras trainee in Germany.

So, it can be connect because I was one year in a

during that time I was in the Technical University of Hanover. Hanover.

So, basically I had undergone classes there and

I was . Then when you taught in IIT Madras is it?

It is before you taught. No before I taught during my training.

Ok. That 2 years in Germany.

Yeah yes. Last 2 years in Germany was in the IIT Madras scheme.

Of that scheme 1 year I spent in

the Technical University of Hanover

with the laboratory of mechanical handling,

cranes, conveyors and all that they used to make.

And I used to be started Suran Sur was also there

we started the classes for all machine design,

mechanical handling and related subjects.

So, basically IIT Madras told yes yes

that can we considered as a post graduation

we will allow you to

because otherwise I knew that once I don’t have a Ph.D.

I will be again kicked off from a IIT Madras.

So, basically I registered for the Ph.D.

under Professor Narayana Murthy

and then slowly worked and worked and worked

and it took a long time to get my PhD

1955, I graduate got my B.Tech.

1975, I have got my Ph.D.

and with my Ph.D. I became a professor here

as one is you become a professor in IIT

in my opinion its a very very very

attractive job to be a professor in an IIT.

Because you have nobody to question you

except of course, the

people like Amudachary and students [laughs]

and and if you keep away from the

political part of the whole system,

then you are happy

because you can do your work

and if you get one or two projects here and

there you are happy to do your work,

the students are good student will.

So, basically it is good to work in the

and but I was honestly tell you

that when I was in IIT also

after my even after my professorship,

KCP called me to be consultant for them

I used to go every saturday,

actually it started in 68 itself

just after I left and a

few months time they asked me to

help them with some design work in

green pneumatic conveying and general machine design.

So, I started going every Saturday

once in a while to them.

So, I am one of the earliest

consultant from the IIT Madras

staff to the industry

before it, the whole thing was even regularized,

we had a system where

why I used to and do not given given a single

paisa to the institute at those days

although the it was official.

But then the ICSR came and then

we had to give some share of the

earnings to IIT Madras.

So, it went on it went on till from 68 to almost

78 almost 9, 10 years I used to go almost every

Saturday to there,

and it so, happened that Professor V. Rama Murthy

late V. Rama Murthy you must be knowing him. Yeah.

He was also in KCP when I was in KCP

and he had joined IIT Madras

before I joined IIT Madras.

So, after- Second stint not the first stint

first stint you joined much earlier. [FL].

Your first stint you are in IIT Madras.

Yeah is second second stint

he joined in between before I rejoined.

So, KCP he was also basically interested in design area

and vibrations and things like that.

So, KCP Ramamurthy and I

used to go almost every Saturday to

spend a day there in KCP and help them around.

So, that was a good experience

because I kept contact with the industry for a

time, for a long time.

So, then once in a while I would get a little and up

unhappy with the thing and I would say that

to tell my wife that let us try somewhere else

I did try once or two places.

And then offer was not, then once the offer comes

I will sit down and we will compare

what is happening

they said no no this is good life because

IIT Madras beautiful campus

children are happily studying in the Central School and

the madam is happy with the society

here I am happy with a thing I could

there is no tension.

And the once you make the

comparison between the

the advantage of the life

based advantages and the monitor advantages,

if they want advantages were not

thats at they all that attractive

because in those days even now basically

because I have continuous contact with industry

even now the designer in industry is not paid very well.

In the manager gets a high paid,

but that manager doesnt know

how to design a machine.

He knows how to manage the project

and get other people work

and if the other people make a technical mistake

my experience is that that

very few are able to correct that mistake.

Then we settled for IIT Madras

we happily settled there children grow up,

then they flew away.

Then 1994 I retired

and when I retired just when I was retiring I had a,

I was already helping a small company making

planetary gearboxes in Hosur,

and these people came to me and then

I started helping them to make the planetary gear boxes.

Planetary gear boxes because

I had an experience in making

there was a ISRO

a requirement for a 14 meter antenna.

A with antenna that rotating this with

azimuthal rotation and the elevation rotation

and ISRO came to IIT Madras for the design.

And the Structural Engineering lab

took the Structural Design of the lab,

then Professor Narasimhan of

Electrical Engineering he took the

dish design that is the

the waveform and the the dish form you know?

And they were looking for a there are 2

some 3 gearbox, 2 gearboxes

there which are we to make-

they are planetary gearboxes.

Nowadays they are being imported

can IIT Madras help us.

Then we said I can help you

then basically thats how I got into the gearbox designs

planetary the gearbox design.

So, we made the planetary gearboxes for that antenna

and antenna gearboxes are very special

because they have to have very low backlash,

they would have very good accuracy,

they would have very high rigidity

because they are server controlled.

So, basically we I designed that and then

ISRO came again for another antenna also we designed.

the antenna so, basically structural lab and our lab

we used to do the design for-

I think we are done for 2 or 3 antenna projects for the

Indian space research in those days.

So, basically I had got interested into

the gearbox design

although my design area of experience for gearbox was

peripheral in the- in the olden days.

I became more interested in design of gearboxes.

So, this company came and said

sir we want to help in making planetary gearboxes.

So, I and he said. For whom?

For a Magtorq Private Limited a small company

which had started in Hosur.

And when he came he I used to help him for 2 years,

and then he said now you are retiring

what is your project- your proposal after retirement.

He said we I am looking for

I will settle down somewhere and

maybe help the industry for do something,

then he said that we are making gearbox

you are helping us,

so why dont you come to

Hosur and Bangalore or Hosur and then

help us make gearboxes?

So, and in those days I had 3 options to settle-

settle down after the

both my wife and I had decided that

Madras is not a place for us

because after having lived in this beautiful campus Madras is not a place for us

because after having lived in this beautiful campus

and peaceful campus for a long time whenever we go out

we became a little nervous about the city,

because the city traffic was going on increasing and

city life is getting difficult.

So, we said we should go to place where

is a little more peaceful and we have some

people around us,

relatives. Children have flown away.

So, we had 2 or 3 options;

one option was Vishakapatnam where

my parents had been leaving for-

after my my father had retired and settled there

because my eldest sister were had settled there.

So, we had some connection from

my side of the family in Vishakapatnam,

then the next was Coimbatore

where my wife's family has some

connect- family connection relatives.

So, that we have relatives to support us in the old age

and Bangalore where also we had some relations

and my sister-in-law was there

her sister was elder sister was there.

So, and Bangalore is a good place to settle down

its a sort of neither Vishakapatnam and not [inaudible]

Where you in Bangalore or in Hosur? The the-

We started in Bangalore, I was staying in Bangalore,

we have bought a flat in Bangalore for-

and stayed there for 3 years and I

used to go to Hosur 5 days a week.

Travel was tough since the the.

That in those days it was tough

the traffic was not bad,

but the roads were ba.,

This is I am talking of 94, 94 to 97. This is-

The traffic will slowly got on increasing increasing like that,

so we said going up and down and my eyes were getting bad

because I developed a glaucoma in my eyes and then

I could not see well in the dark for a- to start with

now I dont see the light time also very well.

So, driving said my wife said

you are going up and down is not good,

we also decided.

And Bangalore was also getting more and more congested,

it is difficult to live in Bangalore actually

its a very very congested city

and I think that some ways Madras is better.

So, we shifted to Hosur and let out the flat

for some time then finally, we sold the flat

and we decide to get back to Coimbatore.

When was that?

That was in 2003 we got a house in Coimbatore and

we shifted to Coimbatore,

but the company said

no no you cannot go away from us like that.

So, you have to continue helping us.

So, I said ok we will

my eyes are getting bad and all that thing.

So, if you want I will help you once in a while they said fine.

So, I used to be used to spend 15 days in Bangalore, 15 days;

15 days in Hosur, 15 days in Coimbatore.

I still helped them with the all design things.

Because the company was growing up and

we had a tie up with not only ISRO

almost all the ISRO gearboxes now made by this company.

That's one thing I should tell you.

Because of you.

Because of me means because of me and the company

because the company makes the machine according to

what I told them no?

There are many companies who

do not make a thing as per you specify.

You write some tolerance, you write some material etcetera

the shortcut and then the management

sort of, they they overrule you know

the designer is over ruled by the management quite a lot.

So, that way the company is very faithful to the- design.

So, we had to made a name and Larsen and Toubro in Bombay,

they are into defence

and defence people also need gearboxes for

server control gear boxes for their

gun systems and things like that,

because, the server gear boxes need to be compact

rigid low backlash or zero backlash and things like that.

And we had a good connection with

we still have the good connection with a

Larsen and Toubro in Bombay,

and almost all their gare boxes are made by this company.

So, I used to spend 2 weeks in Hosur,

2 weeks in Coimbatore, we will go up and down.

Where do you live in Coimbatore now?

Coimbatore we live in Ramanathapuram.

Now, since about 4 or 6 months

we are not going to Coimbatore, Hosur also.

So, the company still says no no no you should,

so the they still phone me up,

they give me emails and things like that.

So, we still have connection with the company.

The man who started the company is also old now,

so he has gone back to his base in Palakkad area,

he is got a farm there.

So, he is become more of a farmer

although as a Managing Director he still continues the

he has got the controlling hand

his children are running the company.

I still help- them technically so.

When you were the join IIT in 1961-

Yeah. You used to have some German professors like-

Dr. Scheer, Dr. [inaudible] [inaudible]

What is your experience with them and

how do you feel those days

these German Professors vis a vis the Indian?

No in my experience with German professors

in those days was not very-

I didnt have much contact with them except that

Mr. Ebert of course-

workshop you used to.

Workshop because we had connections with the workshop.

So, Mr. Albert we used to interact a little

and there was one Hassenbein-

Hassenbein right. -he was also in the workshop

we used to have in contact with them,

but it was not very close

because nothing was design.

But Dr. [inaudible] used to take class in machine design.

Dr. Kurgan actually when we came

Kurgan stopped taking Machine Design class,

I think sur and I took the classes right?

Yes. If you remember.

Yeah, yeah. Sur and I took their classes.

So, Kurgan was still just managing and

I think Kurgan also left early .

Did they like the Indian experience, these Germans.

I dont know. So, many of them I think liked

I know Scheer used to like

and Kurgan we dont know. Kurgan he went away

and he was a happy man.

He was a pilot.

He was he was a war the fighter pilot.

So Kurgan's one experience I had tell you it was very nice,

he once went to some function in

in hotel or something some formal function.

And Dr. Kurgan wore a tie and he wore a chapple

and then he will ha he had a German car.

So, he will with the car he will drive with the

he will steer with the thing and he will put his hand here

and he will go on driving and he will go on hooping

and breaking and all that thing.

Then he will say it is very easy to drive in India you know

if you got a good break and a good horn

you can drive very easily in the India.

So, he was he had that

fighter pilot reflexes you know basically,

he was basically good man

even though our connection with him

was not very close in those days

and Dr. Scheer of course, we are not very close because

I told you know 3 years I were there have left the,

then when I came back Dr. [inaudible] and-

Was Professor Haug first first time he was there?

Professor Haug was not there I think Professor Haug came

also later. Haug was teaching us vibrations.

Actually. Haug was teaching vibration,

but our connections in with vibrations people extra was less

because if as you say we were in that MSB one room there

and we were more interested in teaching design and

setting up some things and.

One stall was also they doing their period.

Stahl was in the IC Engine lab. DC Engineers.

IC Engine lab

and Koch was there

Nicholas Klein was there.

Ok in fact, Klein was very big actually

Klein mean small German.

Whereas, he was very big person, am I right?

Used to call him small big Klein. No no [inaudible] was the biggest man.

Yeah. So, we used to call this small big Klein.

Klein means in German small. Yeah small.

He was very big actually yeah.

And Nikolaus Klein was I think more in the humanities know.

Yes Germany he use to.

He is teach German right

and Nikolaus Klein was much exposure to India even before

he knew a lot about India because

many Germans specially in the humanity area

they usually are fascinated by the

Indian philosophy and Indian.

Culture. Culture and things like that.

So, they have a good knowledge of these things

and Klein was one of them.

What’s your view about the students of your days

and later first first time and then later?

Student of my days I dont know I can

that way I know students of IIT from 1951 onwards, right.

I then also you are a student.

As a teacher. So, when we were students

then when we joined our salary

we could expect up to

250 rupees a month Assistant Engineer somewhere

as I was telling our friend Mamata

this K. C. Poojari, Krishna Chandra Poojari

he joined the Orissa Electricity Board I think

at 250 rupees Assistant Engineer.

So, it was good

Assistant Engineer in the government

simply was good in those days

and if you would otherwise you may get

anywhere up to 150, 200 rupees or something like that

and and some of my friends had also join the Hindu Motors

which is in the Kolkata . Culcutta Uttarpara.

Uttarpara and

they were and one of my classmates became the Master Mechanic,

one Bansal G. C. Grishchandra Bansal

and they were and the first

gold medalist of the first IIT

one Bheem Chandra Mandal,

he also joined he was Mechanical like our 1st batch.

Thangavelu. Gold Medalist Mechanical Tangavelu,

the 1st medalist Gold Medalist of IIT Kharagpur was also

a Mechanical. He was here two, 2 months back, he was in Madras.

So, Bheem Chandra Mandal joined this

this place Hindu Motors,

but then he left for he joined re-joined the Hindustan Steel

and he grows up well there

to become a super or something in the design

and I am told he is not all that well now that that’s the-

He is still living.

Many of my classmates are no more are passed away

he is the Bheem Chandra Mandal seems to be still living

as per the latest news I got, not very well.

Your relation to the IIT Institute of Madras

as a teacher and staff?

So, then the IIT we were we were all happy to get there

very few of us left for USA in those days

and even from the IIT Madras very few in the 1st batch

the first earlier batch is left for USA.

And I think the students the earlier students

who are more interested in the engineering content of the course,

than the later students

for the the the as the years went by

the students became more interested in getting a high grade

GP GBA and then applying to a university somewhere in the USA

getting an MS there and going off.

And in many cases I have found that

what they did in IIT Madras and

what this what they studied in M.S. are

not very close connections,

that I found out and even here many of these students who

passed out here they joined the management

MBA and IIM or something like that

they went on selling soap and things like that.

So, basically means I had the impression that

the interest of the Engineering student

in Engineering is was getting more and more

diluted and and I think that’s the condition

in India now that basically

the bright students look for a good job

rather than doing well in the profession

either Engineering or Physics or

Chemistry or Mathematics or whatever it is

my because I may be too old now to-

as a grandfather I am

getting the grandfather ideas. No no-

that’s way we are also old.

In fact, we believed drawing is important and

Yeah. We believed a structures all that today

and may be the concept is changing as well.

No that is that is a structures,

but if you still believe that

you have to make machines as an engineer

or you have to make a good building as an engineer

or you have to make a good electronic device

as an engineer whatever it is

or do a good good research good development in

Material Science or Chemical Engineering or something.

So, that that you find in very few people nowadays.

I remember very well that

we used to consult for this IIT Madras,

the new entries no

when after the JEE the boys will come here.

The children will come here for admission

and few of professors will sit in the big room and then

we will interview the boys,

the boy will be accompanied by their parents

sometimes by their mama sometimes something

and they will come and sit down and say

ask what is your grade? He say.

So, much grade what is your rank good rank?

then what is your interest?

And the boy will say my interest is Physics sir,

then I would tell him that

yes you can do the integrated Physics in

IIT Kanpur or IIT Delhi they are very good

and because at that time we didnt have

the IIT the integrated in here.

So, but then- He had

Applied Physics and Ppplied Maths.

In Applied Physics in Bombay was there.

So, we will tell him, but then the father will tell

the father or the mamma who is there or

the mother who is there he will say no, but he is good

he is he will do ECE

because they found out from the rank list

that he is eligible for ECE.

So, you should go for ECE you know.

So, they will say he goes to ECE,

there was only one or two people will say

sir, I want Electric Civil Engineering.

I said you got a good rank

why do you want Civil Engineering?

Because in those days Civil Engineering was

not very popular.

So, he said no sir I am interested in Civil Engineering

and I want to become a Civil Engineer.

So, we were happy that we have

one student who says that

he is developed interest in Engineering

one aspect of Engineering and he wants to develop that.

So, it is very rare to find people like that.

So, in IIT days we had good time here

that counseling was there,

then in IIT I used to-

I the administrative side I have done

basically I have been

a Review Committee Chairman for a say few years

that all the staff members in IIT you know

the the the the the.

So, called class 2 and down staff.

We had in the committee interviewed

and also the- there were many many many

temporary appointees who went on for a long time.

So, we had IIT was

forced to make them permanent at one time.

So, we used to interviewed all these people and then

give them proper promotion or things like that.

So, I was Review Committee Chairman for a-

I think quite a few years when

Professor Indiresan was the Director. You are.

Committee of the Review Committee.

Your relationship with other departments how was it?

Relation with the departments was ok.

It is basically I am I didnt have

too many relations basically that way,

we didnt have too much in- as a colleague yes.

but in those days research was not

a big thing right,

research is you know big where research means

you have to do a lot of interact.

Inter departmental. Inter departmental work

to the lab wise and things like that

otherwise it was not more friendly.

Hostels what very new

Hostel Warden or Assistant Warden.

I never was a Hostel Warden.

My friends were had become,

but I never was a Hostel Warden

there is a Review Committee Chairman, then I was a

the President of the Alumni Association for I think two-

two times basically I think I was.

And in the first time I think we

we sort of revived the 25 years, you know

silver jubilee actually it was started

when I was a president there

and Basu John was there

if you remember 2nd batch Basu John,

he was very active.

And we had the Silver Jubilee Reunion

Started I used to be there while you are the President-

I was a Vice President.

You he is been Vice President of the.

Before also and after. Before also and after me also so .

we had we had Varadarajan as in the membership

V. Varadarajan know.

Yeah he being with the 3rd batch. 3rd batch,

then we had Jacob.

Jacob Dominic was the 1st batch he in US now.

No not Jacob Dominic.

I- He was-

V. C. Jacob. of MRF. In fact- V. C. Jacob MRF.

he was my you were the President

I Vice President Jacob was the.

Secretory. Secretory.

MRF. MRF.

V. C. Jacob. V. C. Jacob.

So, and then there also one Narayanan.

Ghost. Ghost was there, ghost was there.

And I think we did well in the

our committee we revived the

the Alumni Association from a sort of a

sleeping dormant stage to a more active condition

and now it has become very very active- Very very-

now it is totally different.

Is it become? It used to be very difficult

one man show or something. Yeah

Yeah yeah . Nowadays.

In those days it was more or less one man show

the President was active and the committee was active

it will do well otherwise nothing will be get done.

It was difficult to get a good committee those days.

Because the all volunteers to come.

Yeah yeah yeah. And spend time and infrastructure inside IIT.

It all totally different now.

I mean it it is that way Alumni Association has grown

very big now.

Then I was in guidance and counselling

I was head for I think

one or two terms

the viewers we used to have a think

is I dont know if it is still continuing

Guidance and Counselling Unit? Mamata- See-

You mean by placements you mean-

No, Guidance and Counselling Unit because

the- as I told you know the the student attitude to-

Yes. studies changed right?

And the- the student basically

who comes to IIT in those days

many of them had difficulty in adjusting to the student-

the IIT system.

They would get upset,

because they came from a college school

where they have in the top 5 percent.

these are the government they have to be say

at least one of them has to be the number 1

and one has to be the last. And if the-

they they they get disappointed

that they are not able to score very high marks,

and worse than that what happen is that

at home there is pressure what is this you did

so, well in this school you were doing a

number you were getting rank

number 1 to number 2 like that

now you are somewhere in the middle.

So, the mother will scold that the father will scold

and all that thing they

they were under some sort of psychological pressure.

And the school system is different from IIT system

all said and done

because in school system I think they get more personal care

from the teacher and more instruction,

where as in the IIT basically in the 1st year

when they come they sit in a large class

and they are afraid to ask questions in the class

and they are afraid to go and meet the

professor or the lecturer after the class.

So, they get a little lost

and their marks are not very good.

So, it needs a little re-adjustment.

And also some people cant speak English very well

and of course, I should mentioned here also that

there is that there was said

we had some cases where the-

the the reservation list you know

people from the reserved category,

they had some difficulties again psychologically induced

either induced themselves or induced by the by the

the normal entries and things like that.

So, they used to feel a little bad

because as a guidance counselling

I have come across these cases

where people feel a little diffident and

they are not very happy with the system they get,

they get into moods and things like that

they keep away from their friends

they feel they are being targeted.

So, we had the Guidance and Counselling had some

small groups of student volunteers

and we had some staff volunteers

our faculty members

and we used to organize and we used to

the student members would pinpoint the

problem their colleagues who are

having some mental problems

or something they would

report it to diplomatically to the faculty member

and then slowly we will try to

call the student and help them around,

I would like to mention one case in this case

we had a a bright boy from the railway colony,

he was having some problems.

So, once we had called him home

and we used to talk with him,

then we asked him his parents were staying in

Nungambakkam in the railway colony

he is son of a railway officer.

So, we asked him and how often do you go home?

He said sir, I dont go home very much because,

if I go home my mother is

asking me why I am getting low marks

and things like that.

So, I am afraid to go home that he use to say.

A local boy you know Madras by staying in the hostel,

he is afraid to go to his own home in

you know Nungambakkam on the weekends

because his mother will say why have you got bad marks.

Even who are they I think usually they

come over it overcome that

and then they become normal after sometime,

but few of them are not able to.

We have come across people who cut their-

there was one fellow who cut his wrist- Great-

with the blade and the- Shaaji.

Report that one Shaaji from Trissur,

then we found out that

he was interested basically in Mathematics,

but because of his grade- his rank in the JEE

his parents forced him to do ECE.

So, we tried telling this boy that

ECE is also a lot of mathematics

you can do that and then you can branch over to

Mathematics after your degree.

He said no sir I want to do Mathematics

and and lot of problem with him.

Then finally, we have to call his parents from Trissur and

we told him you better take your boy back

put him into some maths course

and we found out later that he did

a maths BSc and all that thing

then he is doing a reasonably well

that’s what we found out.

So, we had extreme cases like that.

What’s your contacts the IIT now,

you still in touch with the IIT now?

My contact with the IIT is not very much now.

But with the yours colleagues in IIT.

Professors colleagues in IIT professor’s students.

Colleagues students of course,

Amudachary was- we had contact with him,

but then Amudachary he somehow we lost the contact.

After you went to Coimbatore yeah.

We lost the contact.

My contact with Professor Velusamy is very still

continuing because Velusamy is always nearby

Velusamy was settle down in

he became he joined the Perundurai College.

So, whenever we went to Hosur

we used to stay visit them

and have some lunch with him and things like that

then he shifted to Erode

now he has come back to Coimbatore

he has taken he settled in Coimbatore.

What are his children doing, any idea?

He has got one Velusamy has got one son who is in the USA.

So, that’s the problem with all IIT children

they all fly off and then

they leave the parents a little lonely.

Don’t you think it is a concerned

as a generation as a whole

all the elder people stay back and the

children go away do you feel its a problem?

Say problem for the elder people

if you look at his as a parent I look at it that way

and say as an Indian I would say that

there is something wrong with the whole system of

education in this country where

and also the the the psychological

attitude of the educated people in India,

that education you can do well only if you go to

a foreign university and get a degree.

And then the foreign university being in USA,

where it is easy to settle

because USA is still got lot of vacancies and things like that

they have a lot of money

and you get a very good salary

and they continue there,

and finally, they become-

Citizens. citizens there they become Americans

of course, the America needs new people.

So, they basically they become,

but its a little sad for

personally if as a parent its a sad for the parent

and as a country its also its a little sad for the country

because the country has at least on paper,

we have said that we expect a lot from the Engineering

from the highly; the higher education

people who get higher education here and all that

they dont do any- they dont stay back and do research

or they dont do any advance here

because they prefer to go out and do the advanced work.

Brains drain Indian.

If you can say brain drain but

it I wont I dont want to call it brain drain

because I think we all the people India

we have got still lot of brains in India

the brain is not being used properly by the Indian system.

You were with Professor Indiresan do you remember,

he made a famous statement he is famous for the statement:

Brain drain is better than braining the drain, he said.

Very brain drain. Yeah yeah.

Better than the brain because he said. Yeah yeah.

Brains are in the drain India if you are.

So, that way- yeah yeah it is a famous

quote of Professor Indiresan.

Indiresan. Do you remember Shanmugam ?

He used to he used to

make some quotes like that that is true.

Sir you are you came here for the Golden Jubilee.

I came for- 2009.

That- And so you are still in contact with IIT.

Nostalgia. Yeah Nostalgia.

No I am in still in contact with IIT saying that

once in a while I had been following up my friend

Shanmugam and saying: [in Tamil] Ayya nee epdi iruka ayya? And things like that.

And I have asked him some one or two technical questions

once in a while from Hosur.

Right. Yes.

Sir, how about professor your colleagues,

sir K. Laxmi Narayan?

Laxmi Narayan is no more.

Yeah, but- Unfortunately-

Your interaction with him-

Unfortunately people in the-

my interaction with the Laxmi Narayana was good.

Laxmi Narayana. Because he also from IIT Kharagpur.

He is a- He is.

He is I think 5 years younger to me.

He related to Suri am I right no.

He is I think he is related to Suri. He is related to Suri. Related to Suri, am I right? Suri

Suri was his was the- Suri is 2nd batch IIT Kharagpur.

So ok yes I think they are cousins Suri and Laxmi Narayana.

Laxmi Narayana of course, he is from IIT Kharagpur,

I think he is 19 I am 51 batch

he I think he joined in 55 or 56.

I think he must have joined in 56 or in 55,

he has I have not met him in there I met him only here.

When did he come to IIT Madras?

Who? Narayan.

Laxmi Narayana he had worked in Godrej after

and I his thing is that he has done

B.Tech. in IIT Kharagpur,

he did an M.Tech also with Professor Malgonkar

than he joined Godrej in Bombay

he did some design work there and then he came over here

to IIT Madras.

And do you remember one Nagabhushan C. J. Nagabhushan?

And he did a Ph.D. here

and Laxmi Narayana is a very academically orient-

very strict academically oriented man,

I dont know you dont know him because-

Yeah yeah we dont know.

he is after you he, but Shanmuga would know him. Yeah.

Yes I know. He was highly intelligent

very analytical very good in Mathematics,

but very exact thing with the students,

and also very exacting with other people.

And he had some-

a little short tempered no,

he and he was a little is little reticent you know,

he was not too very open.

He is very selective in his association.

Selective in his associations.

With with me he was very close.

Close the I also have that opportunity this

this thing that Laxmi Narayana is one of the very few

professors he tolerated,

I am one of the few people

at his level whom he tolerated well.

And he would listen to me

and he would say Parameswaran

this is what I think why don’t you propose it to the-

the department meeting?

He was which area he was staying there of-

Mechanics. Mechanisms. Mechanisms.

Nagabhushan was with you do you remember?

Nagabushan was there, he was in Machine Design,

but he was there for a short time

Laxmi Narayana continued here for a long time no,

unfortunately he passed away

when he was still- before retirement.

In IIT in the office is it.

Yeah yeah he is a very good academically very brilliant fellow.

Do you remember Professor Swamy?

C. S. Swamy he has questions for you.

Chemistry Chemistry. He won’t come here.

Chemistry. Chemistry.

But he is a good friend of us.

But he wanted to be here, but

I believe he cannot come.

C. S. Swamy I remember. Here of course he has

a then questions for you,

but I already I asked like your experience.

Yeah yeah. How many people joined along with you?

I must tell you that- About your-

some of my-

I asked you infact- he has specific questions for you

whether B.Tech. honors from IIT Madras?

His question-

Of course those days everything was

honors in IIT Kharagpur, am I right?

And those days these IIT.

B.Tech. honors was only- Yes Yes.

the whether he was selected by Dr. Kraus?

Ok which I asked you answered, yes.

Whether was selected by Professor Kraus to go to Germany

and whether he- Not to go to Germany.

Professor Kraus selected me in Germany. Germany.

He that’s what he is said and whether he joined IIT 59 and left

no he didnt join this I mean you yourself you didnt join in 59 joined.

No, 59 we didnt we were appointed as lecturer only in 61.

Then did- then he has said-

As we came back.

Dr. Gopichand has asked-

Gopichand was here.

He was the in fact he came earlier to you actually.

T. Gopichand.

He taught us chemistry, then later on in Chemical Engineering.

Gopichand was in 1959.

Venkateswarlu Gopichand where the.

Venkateswarlu was my old teacher.

Kharagpur he came from Kharagpur. He taught us fuels in IIT Kharagpur.

And Rama Sastry was also came from Kharagpur. Rama Sastry

thought us Mathematics, no Chemistry. Chemistry.

In fact professors there Rama Sastry and Srinivasan S. K. Srinivasan. Yeah.

Then Dr. Venkateswarlu.

And then M. V. C. Sastry taught us Chemistry,

then Professor Nigam taught us Mathemetics. Maths.

Nigam came slightly little later.

Yeah. S. K. Srinivasan was first maths professor

Dr. [inaudible] was there.

But S. K. Srinivasan is not IIT Kharagpur I think.

I dont think.

He was not there in those days.

But you was in the- infact.

IIT first interview Panel itself apart from the Germans,

Dr. Koch and Srinivasan was there,

Rama Sastry was there, Venkateswarlu was there.

We had a big panel, those days no JEE was there.

So, at that time all the 3 were there No.

S. K. Srinivasan.

The 1st batch. Ok. Selection of us was by.

Interview 3 Germans and 3 Indian were- Yeah yeah.

Professor Verghese also was in IIT Kharagpur.

Verghese came later actually

and Narayana Murthy was one of the persons to join early.

Yeah he was one of the- What was the relationship with Narayana Swamy

as a professor and a guide how was it?

And? Narayana Swamy the Narayan Murthy.

He came from I think.

He came from Institute of Science.

Means I think he was in pre-college I think.

[In Tamil] Abdiya?

His qualification there.

But he got from he came from Institute of Science I think.

And your relationship with him as the-

he was our professor then also the Director.

He was the Head of the Department,

Professor Narayana Swamy Narayana Narayana Murthy.

He said your are his guide also.

He was my he was guide for a many people

because in those days somebody has to be guide no?

So, he is been guide for many people and

he is a nominal guide.

Many of whom who have worked with him

basically at least in the earliest

people who got a Ph.D. from IIT Madras

they have done their work more or less by themselves

without too much professional guidance from the,

from the nominal guide.

And he says Swamy asked you again

do you know Professor Swamy?

Do you remember Swamy? He says.

Which Swamy?

C. S. Swamy he is asking question to you

do you remember him. C. S. Swamy I do remember him,

although we are not probably very close. And he said-

when did he take his Ph.D.? Who?

He he asks about you.

75. 75.

Who was his guide? You answered Narayana Murthy.

Narayana Murthy.

I asked this because I wanted to-

ask the questions. Ask decide by- Narayana Murthy.

Today he is not able to come because his

daughter or somebody is not so well.

Of course, we have got our Shanmugam

he is- about moment he knew that

you are here he has come.

Sir, you selected me for the position of STA in drawing.

Ah good. In 74.

Ok I remember

you are doing Ph.D. will you be able to take 20 hours of

role drawing role, I said yes.

Then some questions technical question

I was good in drawing and I also studied a Ph.D. tech .

So, I know industrial drawing.

So, my first entry, but I didn’t continue, I left for Bombay.

And came back in 80. Yes yes yes.

Where you has there is lot of difference in you

before going to Bombay after coming from Bombay. I hope-

But Narendran where did he study with you, Guindy?

Studied here you know Guindy.

You were you were not in Guindy.

I am a Guindy graduate.

Ph.D. you said.

After guindy I went to Ph.D. for Masters.

Narendran joined this place for Masters and continued.

He is classmate of Narendran.

Guindy. Guindy Narendran.

Ok sir. He was the- Guindy. [Inaudible]

Any anecdotes you want to tell us?

Your anecdotes experience. Anecdotes.

Then tell about Laxmi Narayana.

No no Laxmi Narayana I have told he is a-

I mean no about that incident that has happened- Yes something.

That is why I prompted you sir.

I brought him Laxmi Narayana knowing that

you have some information about him.

Some- No no what it-

No no Laxmi Narayana was a good friend of mine and

we had lot of interaction and,

Laxmi Narayana means have the distinction of being

one of the few persons with

with with whom he did not become

angry. Laxmi Narayanan was he is a mechanism persons.

Or irritated.

So, mechanism people they all talk about

precision and this things. Yeah yeah yeah yeah.

So, his basic you know nature is you know based.

Yeah yeah yes. Because of that

very strict he will not allow any-

Yeah yeah that is the thing.

That a that is a strictness with me.

Not very flexible.

But he is with not flexible. But very selective.

He knows some people infact he used to interact with me

on gears and other things also. Yeah, yeah.

But passed away in 97 or so, if I remember roughly.

Now, he passed away because- 97.

But Professor Ram Mohan Rao sir?

Ram Mohan Rao.

He was there in- He was there.

Yeah any interactions with him?

Ram Mohan Rao is a basically pleasant person basically.

He also studied in Germany.

Who? Ram Mohan Rao.

No he went to Germany under this DAAD scheme you know.

Rayadu also went to Germany under the daad scheme.

And you have guided few people. Who?

Like you are guided by Narayana Murthy.

You also guided Professor Rama Koteswara Rao

and Madhusudhan Rao if I am correct your student sir.

Yeah. You can recollect something about-

He was my first guide.

and design he was my guide. [FL].

Very simple with Professor Rama Koteswara Rao

two people were guides

and two poles apart

one is Professor Parameswaran other one K. Laxmi Narayana.

I always wonder how these two people

could really guide Ram Koteswara Rao.

No no because we Laxmi Narayanan and myself

we tolerated each other very well. Yes.

You tolerate each other. The kind of that is come out

of that interaction very high level one

and he is more practical Laxmi Narayanan.

More analytical.

And Ram Koteswara Rao did wonderful work.

You you may not recollect, but he is-

Now he also passed away

Hobbies. Hobby [FL] hobby?

Hobbies swimming.

Swimming I still do swimming in-

You like swimming.

When the when the-

Something about Laxmi Narayanan just

in in a lighter way nothing much more to you at this one.

He came to I will tell basically because the I was supposed to.

They are two friends they have high regards for each other.

One day morning he came to my house early in the morning

some 6:30 7 like that and my brother-in-law

was staying with us at that time.

My brother-in-law means my sister-in-law's husband

we are about the same age and we are good friends basically.

And I was not immediately at there

Laxmi Narayana came into- I was in the C 5,

C 1, C 1 C 1 5. Yeah C 5.

C 5 third loop road

Laxmi Narayana comes in the morning

and comes through the garage and to the open door

says Ananth, Ananth, he calls my son.

So, Ananth Ram comes there

and Ananth- Laxmi Narayana shouts at him

see you are playing with my son with Sudhakar

yesterday evening and the you

when you played the top that throw throw top was lost.

Pambaram was lost.

So, what he said you did not to find it

you go and search it for him.

Very roughly he is talking with my son,

then while I was not in the room

my brother-in-law was there.

My brother-in-law got upset because he likes my son also

and he said who is this man coming and shouting at my nephew.

So, then I came by that in that time

by the time my brother-in-law-

he is also a short tempered man

this my brother-in-law of mine.

Then by the time I came into the room

and I said Laxmi Narayana what has happened

then I told Ananth this is happened.

So, I we told the both my wife and I told

Ananth that you go and search for it

Sudhakar will come and they go and search it.

Then Laxmi Narayana went away,

then my brother-in-law asked,

who is this man who comes and

shouts at Ananth like that?

I was almost going to shout back at him

by that time the you came

and I found that you were very peaceful with him

and friendly with him.

So, I kept quiet otherwise

I would have shouted back at him for shouting with Ananth.

So, he was Laxmi Narayan was a little

strong character that way.

Did he complete his Ph.D. before you or after you sir?

Who? Laxmi Narayana KLM

I think he completed. Ph.D.

[In Tamil] Adhu theriyadhu ayya.

After I think-

Yes after you are. I think maybe after.

I think after me.

By that time when he was about to register,

he had 20 publications.

Yes, yes. International publications,

but he told me inspite of that I cannot could not use

any one of them for my research.

I have to start afresh.

See that he is very open in admitting certain things.

So, he had to start, I think Professor Narayana Murthy was his guide.

Narayana Murthy was guide for- For everybody.

Universal guide in those days

because there was no other specialist. I know that sir.

No professor in the professor guide no in those days.

He interestingly, R. G. asked me to join department

to do M.S. and do Doctorate here.

That’s what he told me in 64.

Of course, he advised me go to industry

that that was the philosophy we believed in

engineering working, drawing all that.

So, he said you go to industry get the experience

if necessary qualify later when you are in the job,

thats what he did, advised Masters

or then I went to Germany all that I did.

I took his advise this is this is a

advised as a real guide

that is where he made up he he was decent for my-

he said don't join here of course, this is an friend

as a friend he said more than a teacher. Yeah yeah.

I should not tell you but this is thing Yeah yeah.

best ways to go to industry get a very good experience.

No because in those days it was difficult to get

a good job in the industry you know

and. I was really lucky that way

all the company will select me.

So, but HAL selected

I went there at that time IIT

aeronautical they wanted to start there

that guy came from HAL.

So, they took me and Thangavelu, we both went there,

somehow we want to come to Madras

Ashok Leyland also took us,

Ashok Leyland was there.

Ferra company those days, Britishers were there

they were trying to make the

English designs to in India London.

So, I was in that group.

So, it was a infact that we learnt a lot-

that main advice was by him. Sir, Adimulam-

Adimulam was my classmate.

Classmate. Do you know he is no more?

I don’t know I didn’t know. Sorry to be said that-

Infact he said you go to industry get experience

you can always get qualification.

Adimulam also joined there Ashok Leyland.

He was my batch that’s what I am telling.

He was much senior to you because he is my batch 64 he passed out of Guindy [Tamil] How do you know him?

Sir, I have interactions with all people from your year. [Tamil] No no-

Leyland when I come to- [Tamil] Exactly Exactly. Leyland when it was introduced.

Leyland of Guindy because he is should Guindy,

the year he passed out from IIT they passed out in-

I think he passed out in 71 so, but

and no way- [Tamil] Then how would you know?

I mean did the this is advice

and at that time they we believed in drawing

we used to- No even now I say design office

I still believe in drawing because

since I am in connection with the the industry for since my retirement

more closely than before,

I felt that detailed design in India is neglected fully

and people talk of big things that

some people will come and say we know

design we know computer design sir.

So, what do you know? I know.

Cadia. I know Cadia, I know Pro E, I know Solidworks.

But that is design for them.

That is not design.

No we he had design class means the design

where to do calculations we have asking about that-

those days didnt have the computers.

So, a Mechanical-

When you say this I will tell you one experience in IIT itself,

I basically introduced a new course called design practice.

I dont know, you remember? Yes yes yes yes.

For the B.Tech. It was going on for long till Gopinath was there.

He was doing it.

And we started this as a elective for the-

3rd year. 3rd year.

3rd year level. 3rd year level.

Class of- For mechanicals

and to start no to

start with the made it was sort of compulsory,

it was sort of tutorial 3 hours continuously

the boys would be given separate batches of 3

and they would be given-

Sir this is apart from those more drawing courses.

It was not drawing at to all. No no.

This is apart from this. This is drawing. Yeah yeah.

These were the some exposure to design it there. Additional.

They they have we had we will

give them some mechanical object

to be designed which is not taught in the class.

Something like automobile clutch, a scissor lift,

a luggage trolley in the airport and thing

like that we would give

and we would give them some basic things

how to approach it.

And we will say that either you design your own thing

or you take some information from others

and take a design, take a

drawing which a layout which is available and then work on it.

And this went on for I think 1 or 2 courses

after which all mechanical students said we are not

learning anything like that we dont want this course.

Many of the students. I see.

So, we made it elective.

So, when we made it elective only about

may 20, 25 students would come out of the 80 students.

One fourth of the class,

but these students were interested because they knew that

they could they want to work with the- to make things you know.

So, this was more interesting and it went on

and Gopinath also he continued it

we used to give them basic material,

automobile clutch means we would

give them a cut out the section drawing of an automobile clutch

with the in description we would give them some information

about how to design a friction clutch

because they are not exposed to all these things.

We would design them about springs

and all these things we would use them then they would do.

Any special projects you have done which you can remember?

Projects we did one very good project

for Dense Phase Pneumatic Conveying,

it was a Department of Science and Technology Project

which we did and it went- it successful.

With I had one one M.S. student Abhijit Chattopadhyay.

Abhijit sir. Abhijit Chattopadhyay you know

he was working on that and he

brought into working stage and all that thing

and after that we did 1 or 2 M.Tech. projects also on that

we collected lot of information on

Dense Phase Pneumatic Conveying in which

the the powder is not dispersed in the air,

but it is more- goes as a block like thing you know.

So, we that was a good project

we had done as a DSD project

otherwise projects basically I told you the 2

or 3 antenna projects design projects

which we did for ISRO

and for which we went through a lot of

descent review with the ISRO people and all that thing.

Otherwise in those days projects were not very big thing. But in

a department of handling I think goes it should map

I dont know. Can can you say this-

the department itself Mechanical Handling

was more or less associated with MAP.

Am I right? No that was was there no-

[Inaudible] when he left then we had to continue it.

So, the M.Tech. we started the M.Tech. course and

basically my my my design

specialization is cranes and conveyors,

from the industry as well as

the German training and here.

So, basically, but that’s the subject which now losing

popularity in the industry also.

There are very few companies in India who make

good cranes and conveyors.

You made arranged a very big

seminar in materials handling

in one of those your your- Am I?

No actually I did organize also not materials handling

I did organize two design conferences,

I dont know Shanmugam you remember. NaComm.

NaComm, NaComm. No before NaComm.

We integrate with NaComm later.

Ok, before that I dont know.

But NaComm one I attend for say in 80s.

NaComm was as one of these.

One of these sponsors also. First was 1898. In IIT Bombay.

No no we did in IIT Madras.

We did two design conferences for which one,

for which once we had this this Professor Gargi you know from

HAL, he came to inaugurate

and we had lot of papers and practical design

from the industry also a lot of people

and the CII the- the CII people they-

Indian industries people they collaborated with us

and it went off well we had lot of people

from the industry who came and presented some papers.

It went for 2 years,

then the NaComm the Association for

Machines and Mechanisms they took over this thing and

they had been continuing a every

2 years I think some design.

Any what? Sessions from you for improving in the

systems here. System improving I dont know system-

basically its depends on the industry also.

Means an Engineering is Physics, Chemistry, Mathematics.

An Engineering Institution cannot develop by itself

it has to develop depending on the industry

the industry must demand from things from the

institution and the institution must demand from the industry.

That does not happen here

that is one big major problem.

First thing there is more- The industry industry does a lot of

foreign know how know

that is the main difficulty is that

we do not develop the hardware

and basically as a mechanical engineer I would say that

hardware mechanical engineering is hardware.

If you make a robot

you have to make the hardware of the robot

in addition to the control spot

in addition and the controls spot is again hardware

from the electrical side and the electronic side

and the software part.

The Indian robotic engineer tends to specialize on the

software part only

that’s how why we are not able to make robots

like the Japanese which play football and which

which would will bring a

drink for you from the fridge and things like that know

we have to make those things

otherwise there is no meaning in

just writing software there is no meaning.

The software must be applied to a hardware

and the hardware must be made by here,

then only people will be employed.

Especially the the worker has to be employed know

the mechanic has to be employed

the machines must be employed.

Now, industries in fact, they

changing from man to machines all robots now.

Yeah, but who makes the robot?

Robot you have to make here not import them

if you make the robot here no problem

that’s what Japan does no?

If you buy a robot and ask it to turn out

so many for say an hour

thats not Mechanical Engineering

that is production only simple production

production management

you get the machine from Japan you

Germany you get the robot from Japan

you and you write the software

and then you say I am big engineer

and now you are not engineer

you are a software man.

If the machine goes wrong robot goes wrong

you dont know what to do with it

you call the Japanese fellow or the German fellow. Right?

Sure sure.

You have to make it yourself

and if you make it yourself

the employment kept potentiality of

the country will improved vastly

[Tamil] What, Shanmugam? Right sir, you are 100 percent correct.

You are in fact, in fact yes sir

Maybe it is the thought of the old old people like us.

No no no. Even now it is valid.

No the idea- No it is-

How many- as he rightly says

how many boys today they want to do drawing?

They do want to go to workshops? We had-

No no Amudachary the thing is not to just

that you dont blame the boys only

blame the industry. Environment.

Blame the environment, blame the industry.

I told you know we interact with LNT a lot

over this l ast almost 20 years

or so I have been interact with the LNT.

LNT boys supposed to be

very good in Mechanical Engineering

they are good I do agree,

but they are not to good in detail design.

They will give you a solid model of a think which they

which they have made

and then they ask us to develop the-

Parts detail. design. So, from the small screw and washer onwards

to the to the linkages or the gearbox etcetera

we have to develop

that those people are not able to develop they will say

the gearbox box was be so much some 300 dia 400 long

output shaft so much input, shaft so much finished.

Give ratio, so much

they are not able to make the gear box

and I can tell you gears is the very most simple thing

to be to be designed as if probably Shanmugam will agree.

Its a most complicated.

From geometry to design to manufacturing.

And machine inspection. Yeah.

You normally we say if one knows how to read a design and

manufacturing the inspection he can do anything.

And coming to Ashok Leyland thing like that

India still does not make a good IC engine.

It’s imported.

A good IC Engine with low fuel consumption is imported

and if I Ashok Leyland and Mahindra etcetera

claim that our engine is

low consumption etcetera

it is because their imported design is

efficient not because their design is efficient.

Do you agree? Sometimes yes.

So, if you can develop an engine here,

nothing like that.

Make it yourself that nobody is thinking over it.

LCA they wanted to develop the engine

gas turbine research in this thing.

I with I have been interacted with

GTRE for some time

from Hosur because they wanted some

high speed gearbox and things like that.

So, the the GTRE they have been trying to develop

a gas turbine for the LCA

nothing they still get it from

Rolls Royce or whatever it is you know.

Arjun tank they wanted a 1500 HP diesel engine.

Institute of Science wanted to develop or something like that

it must have dropped in the in the middle.

With our background in Engineering

and we thought of background of

Science and Engineering Science

we should be able to develop a good IC Engine here.

And IC Engine is different from a gearbox Shanmugam. Yes.

Because gearbox I can still calculate and make

I can still measure it and cheek the accuracies,

but IC Engine to say so much

so much the fuel consumption so much

it requires feel.

A gearbox does not required that much feel

they say difference in that. Do you agree?

IC Engine requires feel for the engine.

You have to do do something like the auto mechanic know

its auto mechanic, we will say that

he will do just do something and tell tell you 100 rupees.

Say say why 100 rupees he will say that

10 rupees for this part and 90 rupees for my

my know how, because he did the proper tight ring there.

That patience the Indian industry lacks

patience and confidence self confidence you know

the Indian industry lacks fully.

I know people from the industry like him LNT

I know people-

I we interact with the TaTa Engineers.

They come with big things you develop this develop that,

but then they start behaving they behave they

talk to you as a machine supplier.

They will say if you design they will say

sir we will give you a thing like this,

but we dont guarantee what exactly.

No no if it doesn't perform the penalty class.

Now, first time you are making a new thing

a penalty class has no meaning [Tamil] isn't it?

So, that attitude of engineering must change in the industry.

Then they come slowly come the Institutions will follow

Ashok Leyland and Mahindra etcetera TaTa

they should come to

the colleges to universities to do basic research.

That's what people in Europe do, people in America does.

USA does not make machines in the universities

unlike the Europe;

Europe they get more into the machine details

America does not.

But America does lot of basic research in

which is necessary for developing the hardware,

lot of research they do,

and we only talked research research, but nothing happened.

We did one project for DST you know it will be long back

now I think things have changed there

for the better and the good old days the DST manager say

you are not submitted this report.

Sir we are still working on it sir

no no this time that is the time line is over

you submit something and submit.

So, that I can close the file, finished.

he he is more interested in closing the file

not in seeing in what we have done.

So, why should I get interested in the thing?

I will close my his file and put in my report,

annual report that I have done this DST project.

I have done that DST project

and the institute will be happy, right.

This is his usual, his original colour. How he talks.

We have to change our attitude to work.

I think our psychology has been changed by the-

I go go back to our nationalism you know,

the British have changed our Psychology

the British people have made the Indian

educated class feel a little lose their self confidence,

or they become fearful of doing a mistake.

Anyway you go to the famous Macaulay designed

the system of education in India. Macaulay spoiled the system.

To kill the Indian- That is the truth.

that is the truth.

That’s what they say.

That’s what you are telling know.

[Tamil] If you speak in English they won't understand, in Tamil they won't understand, in Hindi they won't understand

and nowadays students have

Engineering graduates come for an interview

from the colleges the other colleges you know.

They come- we ask them questions in

we are a small company.

So, we don’t call from IIT or NIT or

Anna University and things like that.

So, comes from local rural college they will come

we will start off in English,

sir that that fellow does not understand well

then the we will ask in Tamil

he cannot answer back in English

we will say [Tamil] can you speak in Tamil? Yeah. Yes sir.

So, Tamil let me ask questions in Tamil then

simple mechanical questions

most of them do not answer properly.

A few of them a very rarely

maybe 1 or 2 out of 10

have understood the subject,

they will answer to you good in Tamil,

what they have understood?

And they have understood the principles.

That is the type of people we should have.

Not people who talk in English and explain it,

but if they are able to explain it in their own tongue

it's good because what is matter is

you have to understand the thing rather than express it,

and over time you will start expressing.

I went- when I went to Germany I didnt know German,

but in 3 years time I picked up German speaking

I could read German books.

Now that system that they make you.

Learn in fact, they say on the system you go.

You know- Without knowing Germany cannot.

No no, I didnt go to a German school also there

unlike you when you went

you went to the school you know.

Yeah infact even we are trained in India

with the institute and then.

The language- I didn't I didn't have any language course

I just straight away went and joined the

the company there and when I joined no German,

then we started to making drawings there

I used to make drawings

for almost 6 month I used to make only in drawings.

The good old fashioned way on T board

with T scale and or drawing machine, then

slowly then they said

you fellow you know the English know.

So, now, you they put me into projects which were-

English projects. English, American based projects you know.

So, I would write out of all their

calculations in English and all that thing,

so I used to do that.

Then slowly I picked up the language

I used to read books in English in German

the I picked up I could speak in German

not 100 percent grammatically correct, but

the standard German nobody will question me

without looking at my color

they would not known whether I am a German or not.

[Speaks German] drawings? [Speaks German]

I think we should say how the video was taken.

How video shake?

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Prof. O. Prabhakar in conversation with Prof. B.S. Murty

Good morning friends.

Welcome to this interaction session with Professor O. Prabhakar,

with the Heritage Centre.

Professor Prabhakar, thank you, sir,

thanks for coming

and to spare your valuable time with us.

You had a very distinguished,

I would say, honour

of becoming a faculty in the same place

where you had your graduate studies and also PhD studies.

Shall we go to your undergraduate studies level

and to know what motivated you to join IIT Madras?

What was the perception of students those days,

school students about IITs;

can we start with that?

Thank you, Professor Murty,

senior professors, Professor Swamy,

Professor Reddy, I am very happy they are here.

Yes, I have the distinction in some way,

of being associated with IIT for a very long time.

I joined here in 1960,

and probably went out in 1998,

and in fact, one of the directors called me

a good example of inbreeding.

But anyway, there stands the matter.

Yes, we all...that time, IIT was not very popular.

In fact, the there was no examination.

It was recruitment by our marks in

Plus 2. final plus 2 and...

Was plus 2 there, sir, those days? We were fortunate.

It was called plus 2, what was it?

Pre-University it was called. Pre-University, okay, sir.

And, we had one oral examination,

Okay. where all Germans were sitting and evaluating us.

And, there was no written exam, it started much later.

But, the oral was technical, about science? Purely technical,

all creative. In fact, very very creative. Very, very. Very good

Very good. It used to be demonstrative,

not even talking.

And, I like that. Oral exam was very good.

To know your interest in science particularly,

possibly, that was very good.

And, I came because, I came number 1 or 2,

I don't know exactly, in Madura college.

So, the principal, Prof. Totadri Iyengar,

he called me to his room and

said, "there is a very good institute in IIT,

called IIT in Chennai, why don't you apply?"

We all thought of only Guindy Engineering College,

that was our ultimate. True, true, true.

Incidentally, I got admitted there also. Okay.

And, he said, "why don't you go there?"

and that's the first time I heard.

My father was not impressed.

For him, it is Guindy College,

go to Guindy College.

but then, So, a whole decision on your part.

I took the lead,

Yeah. I convinced him that when my principal says,

Okay. there must be something very good.

Okay. But, I don't regret the decision.

Wonderful. Thank you sir. It was

a fantastic journey after we joined.

And, it was the very very

beginning period in IIT, that time.

Yeah, yeah, I know you were the second batch. Second batch.

And... You also said, I think, if I remember right,

first batch in the hostels, you said. Yeah. Correct!

It was Krishna hostel.

We had only one floor,

ground floor constructed,

with all brick and mortar scale. That was the only one hostel those days, possibly.

Yes, yes.

And 100 yards from my room,

I was in the last room - F12,

there was a burning ghat,

people used to be burning dead bodies..

and just about. On the campus?

On the campus, just about 100 metres.. Okay.

And later, the director intervened, banned and all that. Okay.

And, students used to be afraid of sleeping in their room.

I can understand. He was a very, very fine, Professor Chaudhri,

was our warden.

There were some of the students,

who were scared of ghosts and pisaasu,

and, all that,

they used to go to his room and sleep. Okay, okay.

And, in fact, one of the students was even termed as Ghost.

He is still popularly known as Ghost.

Because, he was so afraid of ghosts. So, Okay.

This is the thing. Okay.

And, this one I will come later, I will show you some...

First when we entered,

there was no dining table in the room.

In the dining hall. Okay.

We all sat on the floor and ate food. floor.

Maybe, they all thought that it's good

for your health, you know.

Nowadays, it's very difficult to find people

Yes. who can sit down and eat, right.

A burning ghat was there.

Okay. Believe me,

through the night they used to bring dead bodies and burn,

and used to be a heavy

But, I heard this was a jungle, right, sir? smell.

How people will... Well, for Velachery doors are open,

that time. Oh, Velachery

side was open. It is their regular burial ground.,

Okay, okay. Later, IIT, I think, took action to stop it

and it became part of our grounds.

Krishna was only on the ground floor.

We were the first batch to officially enter IIT.

That is why Professor Sengupto

had a very soft corner for us.

Okay. Because, we withstood a lot of difficulties.

We used to be taken like cattle,

like cattle in a truck

to college, to classrooms in CLRI,

there were no classroom here. Okay.

Like cattle, I am not joking at all.

We used to stand and

used to be taken literally, like cattle,

we used to be taken.

People will be falling

because, there were no good road, right...

used to be falling and...

So, there were no IIT buses those days?

Nothing. Only N. T. Rama Rao

will come in his chariot

and there will be cinema shooting taking place, Oh

In the campus? Oh, Okay. Campus.

because of forest atmosphere. Okay, okay.

And, this is the Krishna where we stayed first, this is Cauvery.

Later, I went on to become warden also there.

And, Professor Chaudhri was a

very kind man; he was just like a fatherly figure.

He took care of us. wWater flooding used to take place,

water will come into the room

in the monsoon time. It happens even now, sir, once a while.

Holi, was for me, it is a novel experience,

we were all ducked in...

our north Indian friends used to be very exuberant. Yeah.

So, when I am bit shy or withdrawing,

they will definitely chase me. Yeah, yeah, they will.

So, they have a...they have a prey there, Prey.

right? If you by yourself go to a water,

they are not so much, right. True, true, true.

Ragging was very minimal,

though some students

were I remember dismissed...our juniors,

three of them, for doing extremes of ragging.

Some four or 5five students were dismissed,

that I know very well.

Yeah, now we don't even hear about that. Even at my time,

that was...there was more friendliness rather than ragging. Yeah,

true, true. That is good. And,

these are the hostel.

4.5 years we stayed in Cauvery,

0.5 we stayed in Krishna.

And, we have to walk, there was no tarred road.

It was a kachha road there, will be full of thorns,

and imagine, your cycle gets punctured

and you have a bag, night, water,

no light, we have to walk through.

In the dark. dark.

That is why, Professor Sengupto

was really kind to us, whatever we ask, he will give.

Because, we did not complain.

We put up with the trouble,

I won't say trouble,

some inconveniences Inconveniences.

in a very gamely way; nobody used to complain, Correct, correct.

people used to be happy. Correct.

And, NTR movies used to be filmed,

I am not joking.

The fellow will go on a chariot,

and singing song, because of the forest atmosphere, right.

And, this is about general,

Okay, okay. our undergraduate

Good, good, good. beginning.

Anything about your academics? Full of...it was swarming with Germans.

Where there any Indian faculty

those days, in the department? Yes, yes we

were very fortunate because,

senior faculty used to take our classes.

They didn't have research. Okay.

Very, very senior - Professor Ramasastry,

Aravavamudhan.

Professor S. K. Srinivasan, of mathematics. You should be

very, very fortunate to hear their lectures.

We were very fortunate because

senior people were coming, E. G. Ramachandran,

where they didn't have much to do,

so, they took our classes.

Okay. And, that way we were extremely benefited.

Many of our classes were taken by Germans. Okay.

For example, physics, Professor Koch took it.

Yeah, professor was eventually, Professor Reddy was... Maths, Professor Hahn, took math.

He used to give grade like d to the power of minus 6 tending to 0,

limit tending to 0, right.

Okay. It was very unique experience.

next, go ahead. You had this common courses

only for 1 year or extending into the 2nd and

3rd years? Up to two and half years.

Up to two and half We had a 5 year course.

Okay. So, up to two and half every student of every branch, Yes.

goes through the same curriculum. Same.

eEngineering background. So, two

and half years is what you would study

your departmental subjects, is it like that? Oh, yeah.

More or less. Even in the other two and half,

some parts we study, professors from

chemical engineering took our classes, Okay, okay.

electrical engineering took our classes. Classes.

and Good, good, good, good.

some common classes were there. Oh, okay, sir.

Much more of, I think, general engineering. We did physics,

Professor Ramasastry told me in person,

"I have taught whatever that could be

taught for an MSc Physics,

I do not know what else to teach you people."

Is exactly what he told.

He was also a very good teacher. Things have significantly

changed in all, sir. Things.

If you look at the current curriculum,

we recently, about 3 - 4 years back we changed,

where we see that, only 15 percent is basic sciences,

15 percent is basic engineering,

then about 45 percent is your departmental,

professional courses,

which includes your projects,

which includes electives and core everything,

and then, about 18 percent free electives now. Okay,

so, the students have a freedom to choose

anything from other departments;

that's more nowadays.

So, because they want to give the

freedom to students to see that. But,

I have a strong opinion

that, without good physics,

without good chemistry,

without good mathematics,

you cannot do good engineering. Correct.

True, you are right, you are right. You will be a messed up in

engineering. I completely agree with you, sir.

You want to do good engineering,

your Pphysics has to be sound,

your chemistry has to be good, Correct.

and, your maths, reasonably

at least, Fortran analysis, you should be able to handle.

True, true. If you can't do that,

Now there is no Fortran you will not be a good engineer.

anymore. Whatever you try.,

you can become a village blacksmith,

but, not a good engineer. True, true, true.

What about your Metallurgy department faculty? Yes,

this is the faculty. Over all faculty.

Professor E. G. Ramachandran is the senior most man.

Very early he got his PhD from Sheffield.

And, they all have... I

heard that he had a record of having

a PhD, when he was 22 years old. 22.

That's amazing. They could have gone to any

place in the world and settled down,

they all came here,

and worked here. And we are all fortunate.

Really, yeah. That's the wonderful thing.

He also worked with a Nobel laureate

Sir C. V. Raman, I think, for 2 years.

And, he is a very,

what the best unique thing about E. G. is that,

its not about engineering and all that,

he wired our brain for more good thinking,

lofty thinking, higher things, Skinner's.

All his classes used to be fantastic;

he took us to a different level, but with one zone;

not mundane, foundry, ramming the sand,

and all that. It is very important

that the students' brain is wired for lofty thinking.

And, that's what he achieved, not the details.

Yeah, I heard that when he teaches physics of materials, Details is not important.

Yes. I... It's amazing, people say.

I only feel that it is not been recorded. Every day,

end of it, it will be like a detective story.

In fact, the NPTEL lectures that we have now,

if they were there those days,

I mean, the students would really... I tried to record,

I called them, but such facilities

Correct. were not there.

Now, now. The day will end

like a detective story. He will say,

"tomorrow we will see how Skinner solve the problem."

You know, So, you will wait for the next day.

whole of Schrodinger's equation,

still is etched in my mind. Wow!

wow, wow. He got up only once.

To take the wave equation and

put down the potential function.

He just said, "this is Schrodinger."

Amazing. Still it is there in my mind. I am a foundry man,

I know. I have nothing to do with physics,

but it is etched in the mind, So, good.

you know, etched in the mind. Good teachers are like that.

So, other than Professor E. G. R., who were the others, sir? He

started industrial metallurgy, very unique thing,

because Chennai is having lot of auto industries,

and that time, auto parts.

So, he formulated industrial metallurgy,

putting, not going into too much theoretical metallurgy,

and all that, in NDT, heat treatment and all that,

it was a great success.

Just to ask there sir... Vasudevan.

you knowm now, recently our department

has started a new programme,

an MTech in industrial metallurgy through e-learning mode.

So, that anyone who is in industry,

who has some BTech or a MSc background

can sit in their industry,

and listen to lectures which

our faculty give in the evening hours,

Excellent idea. 4 to 7,

so that, they don't need to come out of their industry,

and get an MTech degree.

Excellent idea. So, they just come here only for the

convocation, nothing else. See,

So, all the 10 courses, You see,

they sit there and learn.

last 13 years, I have been doing consultancy. Yeah.

I take classes, half of the classes I teach in Tamil,

because the local students don't follow. Ok. Yeah, yeah. I understand, I understand.

But, I tell you, there is an enormous desire

for them to understand the metallurgy True, true.

of the processes they are doing,

they want to know that. Good.

And, IIT faculty and students are in a very unique

and I would say very very fortunate position,

you are all exposed to the very latest.

True sir.

You really don't understand how I know, I know.

fortunate you are; only when you go out,

True, true. I mean going there,

and they want to learn thing.

Particularly with the recent facilities, sir, Yes.

you will be amazed. Yes

Whenever somebody comes from overseas,

they say, "wow, what kind of facilities that you have."

For example, our Metallurgy department right now, has

a Titan, the highest end electronamicroscope with 1 angstrom,

in fact, its 0.6 angstrom resolution;

and, we have got another machine which

is an atom probe, local electrode atom probe,

with about 32 crores we bought it,

which is again first of its kind because,

I know, you are doing very good work, yeah. it can be remotely operated. So, the

whole world, I mean, it's very rare to see a

titan and a leap in the same building in the world,

very few institutions have this.

It's a very, very fortunate You don't even have it

in chemistry. position that people are here in.

Good sir, you were talking about Professor Vasudevan.

Professor Vasudevan, he was a very friendly person.

Within very few minutes, he will give you the feeling

that he, of his scholarship, of his gentlemanliness.

Very sound, his lecture. He got

first teacher award for more than

8 or 10 times in the... Wow, wow.

In IIT, it is tough. I got, maximum I got was 8th rank,

Hhe got first some 6 or 7 times, he got.

Okay. And, the best thing is,

But, you were also known to be an excellent teacher, sir;

many students tell me.

But they were giants.

Ahead of me, there were giants, literally giants. Okay.

Okay, okay. Right. When compared to them, I think, I dwarf myself.

Sreenivasa Raghavan, a man of very high integrity, a no nonsense man.

When I was the head of the department,

I will definitely, I will take his help,

whenever moral, ethical, integrity issues are involved,

I will send him, "sir, it is your field."

Whenever there is something wrong done,

he will make sure that things are done properly and correctly.

He set very high ethical standards,

out of the way, because, you know, outside it is,

the whole thing is rubbish.

But, here, he is setting about very high ethical standards.

Surrealistic. Absolutely surrealistic

and he will set impossible standards.

Anyway, that is K. S. R. for you.

But, very fine gentlemen.

They all added a touch of class to the department.

If they were not there, I would not have joined.

I would not have joined.

They all gave you a feeling

that this is the sophisticated department,

it is a high class department.

I am not going to do anything wrong in being here.

right that is. But, those days, I think,

typically after BTech, people must be joining

some industry and things like that,

what has made you come and do PhD? I went for

post graduation. So, you went for a post graduation outside?

Institute of Science. I did mechanical engineering. Institute of Science.

Okay. Mechanical in the foundry? Then, I went and worked a couple....

Wonderful place, sir, I mean.

I then, went and worked a couple of months

in Coimbatore in foundry.

Okay. And, that was an Alfresco toilet,

so, I just couldn't stay there.

So, came back, E. G. said, "join up."

I had admission in University of Michigan,

to go. In the meantime, Professor E. G. said,

"you may like to stay back."

Kind of indirectly. Didn't tell me...no, not that way,

indirectly encouraged, "you may like to stay here."

I continued, they sent me to DAAD scholarship

and all that, I continued.

So, you joined as a faculty and then did your PhD.

Yes, in those days, at, believe me,

After master's, I think. At 24, I became a lecturer.

Wow. 24. It's impossible now.

With an MTech.

With an M. Tech. Not even a PhD.

Because not many. Now, PhD is a must.

Not only a PhD, PhD with 3 years Postdoc is a must,

according to the new MHRD rules. The things were lenient, they were

lenient that time and continued.

Only, I was doing foundry. Foundry.

It is Professor E. G. who fixed up

one Professor Eberhard Mundry in Germany.

And, he said, "you go and get trained with him

in non destructive testing, it will be very useful for us," and I went.

That's how you have interacted with many... And, Eberhard Mundry was

extraordinarily sincere and good man.

I was fortunate to have good teachers.

Okay. And, he trained he took it upon

himself, as a personal responsibility, to train me up,

I don't regret it.

I make a decent money. Yeah, I heard,

everybody tells that you have started NDT

Yes, yes. in our department.

Not only that,

I have also started American Society of

NDT Examinations - level 1 and level 2 and level 3... Okay, okay.

to help those BScs and MScs,

ordinary BEs, who could not get a good career,

they could do this and even go abroad

this thing, and earn very good lot of money.

Certification done...American certification done in India,

I was one of the first person to start it.

And 100s of them are

now employed throughout Middle East,

Ok. Singapore, Malaysia and all that;

that is one good thing, I suppose, I participated in.

So, when was your date of joining, sir, do you remember?

1968, March.

Here as a faculty?

3rd March or so. And... 3rd March.

3rd March is a very important day, sir,

3rd March is when IISC started.

Okay! J. R. D. Tata's birthday,

here we celebrate. August they promoted me

as lecturer. Both of us have that connection,

I was also a student of IISC.

But those days, for faculty, were there

any advertisements like the current days?

It will come. So, they they were all selected through advertisements?

Professor can... They used to advertise for a specific areas

or not like that, generally? No, metallurgy, that's what I saw,

but I was admitted temporarily as an associate professor first.

And then, they have, thing was regularized

in the lecturer advertisement. So, what were the

hierarchy those days? Associate lecturer,

and then lecturer, Lecturer.

assistant professor, associate and...

So, there was associate professor also, those days?

Yeah. No. Except for some period, there was assistant professor

there. And there was one And, directly professor.

unique category of senior professors.

Only Professor E. G. Ramachandran occupied that post,

nobody else. Okay, now, they call it as a HAG possibly,

something of that nature, okay.

And then, there was Thambiran Ramachandran,

and he later became the principal of Surathkal.

Okay. Beautifully taught you the latest,

very latest that time, dislocations, ternary diagrams.

And, he is also a man of very high integrity.

Uncomfortably, very man of high integrity,.

He taught us things way ahead of other colleges.

Even way ahead of Germany.

I went there. Wow.

Even they didn't have dislocation courses. Wow.

And, he taught us. And, there was one Muthiah,

geology teacher. I specially mention him because,

very boring subject. Exceedingly boring subject, Yeah.

all minerals and... Correct.

But, he used to make it very interesting,

in a very jovial way. Correct.

He was in Civil Engineering department.

Very affectionate, uncomfortably affectionate one.

There was one Dasgupta.

He was a very young man, but bald;

for him the baldness suited very well.

He taught us mechanical metallurgy.

And, he had a unique way of teaching,

he will close his eyes during teaching. Oh.

Even if you want to get out, you can get out.

And, he was quite a, quite a person.

And we have of course,

as a colleague K. A. Padmanabhan came in.

He was...came in like a,

what shall I say, the...

I should have told,

he came in like I wouldn't say china and a bull shop,

but he brought in a lot of expertise.

He opened our eyes to what we can do,

as young teachers and researchers,

he really opened it out.

I think, his coming

showed many of us what can be achieved,

you know, sitting here. True.

And, he showed new horizons. He was very well known for research,

he was very well known for research, I think. Yeah.

Not only that, he literally, see, he

he demoed what is possible.

Wonderful. He was a good addition.

Though, some of his expressions

can be quite uncomfortable.

I said, Churchillian humour with roughage,

but if you ignore it,

he was a tremendous addition to the department. Till then, Yes sir.

That is the. it was slumbering, floundering.

Okay. And then, he just kicked everybody in the rear,

and said, "get going!"

Wonderful. He shook everybody, you know.

And then, just one or two more. Sure, sure, sir.

I out of thing, I appreciate Aravavamudhan,

he took my inorganic chemistry classes.

And, whenever we solve the problem...

supposing, I solve it in a different way,

some radiation, I don't remember,

and he will appreciate it,

he will say, you know, "look at the creativity of this fellow."

And, he will tell in the open class,

"see, you all have done this way, this guy have done this way."

Quiet man, exceedingly quiet man,

but he had that academic deepness.

Fair enough. I appreciated it.

Veluswami, he took our dynamics classes.

Very affectionate guy, person, I shouldn't say guy.

He was our warden also for some time,

he took dynamics classes

and he was also a very friendly person.

Professor Ramanujam, I cannot forget mentioning his name.

There are two Ramanujams,

I am talking about the ore dressing man,

senior man, who is no more now.

And, the best thing is, he showed how physics,

how equations, for example, Stokes law,

they can be very well combined with engineering.

It used to be absolute enlightenment,

how engineering can be done with good physics,

and good mathematics, good understanding.

I think, it's a good example for all.

Mot much relevance to my metallurgy, not much,

but, I used to enjoy his classes

because he used to tie up physics

so, beautifully...it will dance,

physics will dance in his class.

And, at the end of it, you will appreciate the engineering idea.

Wonderful, wonderful. Right, that should be the way.

Wonderful. I really admired him.

S. K. Srinivasan took our maths classes.

A very low tone voice,

but, if you listen carefully, you will be benefited.

I distinctly remember C. R. Muthukrishnan asking him,

"sir, Fourier analysis assumes,

it's only a periodic function from

minus infinity to plus infinity,

then how can you apply it to a impulse pulse?

The explanation, transformation he showed

in the integration is still, it is there in my mind.

A brilliant student with a brilliant teacher,

the effect is IIT.

S. K. Srinivasan, later he took some classes on number theory,

evening classes, I especially went and attended it.

This gentleman is the one who introduced

me to NDT, Professor Eberhard Mundry.

And, he came here for 6 weeks,

we conducted NDT classes and all that, it was full.

At the end of it, he commented,

"all the German professors are having it light,

visiting professors, but you made me work," he said.

He introduced NDT as an academic course,

academic programme in IIT

and you know, how it has taken off,

many of the CDs I have made are based on his...

Their English was not very difficult for you to follow, sir?

Or, you learnt German from him? I know German,

bit, enough for koffeeklatch, I can't boast much,

I attended his classes in Germany. But, they their classes

were all in English?

He is quite good in English,

and whenever he has problem in the class, he will ask me

for the thing. That time, you must realize, how Germany was

in 1971, '72, '73, it was a beaten country

and they were very friendly,

they wanted to be appreciated by the whole world. Okay, okay, okay.

And, they were taking the extraordinary step

to be nice to us, to teach us.

He took it really as his responsibility

Wonderful, wonderful. to put the thing together,

we made very good notes.

Right. Professor Koch was our German professor.

He came to the first class, I remember,

he said 'zat plane,' okay.

Germans, they are talking about jet plane,

we all wrote down 'jet planes.'

Then finally, we found 'that plane' he was pronouncing 'zat plane.'

He, no derivations, concepts.

He will make a wheel rotate and jump on it to show,

we all used to be afraid, the old man should not get injured.

The precision, gyration he used to explain,

he had lot of demo things brought from Germany.

He used whole focus used to be on concept.

Concept. E. G., they, they are the ones who wire the

brains of the students,

Not the boring teachers. I mean, how to say?

They are the ones who wire your brain for better things

True, true, true. in the career.

Scheer, I can't, but mention him.

He took over drawing classes

and later, he was a turbo machines man.

3 semesters he took drawing for us.

Even today, I can tell you,

I can read a drawing happily without problem due to his training.

He used to insist that my letterings,

number should be at 70 degrees.

Thorough Germanness; if you want to see German genius in action,

he was the one.

He he really taught what

what is the difference between Germans and others.

How beautifully they do things so carefully,

so punctiliously. No class is simple class for him,

no lab class is simple for him; full zeal,

Full energy he will put in, even for a simple

45 minute lecture on bolds, not coming, no.

great sir. Great They all really impressive.

great teachers those days they are. Scheer,

if that doesn't teach you about German thoroughness, nothing will.

Klein, he was a kind of a jolly good person,

he taught us German, he used to come well dressed,

gold rimmed glasses on those days,

quite a handsome guy.

But, he was great very popular with the students.

Ebert associated with the workshop,

he used to be a terror,

we lost some good students

because of the toughness in the thing,

quite a good, I remember, I don't want to name them.

They were very good, Andhra University first and all that,

but just because they have failed in workshop,

they were asked to leave, that was somewhat sad,

because, they would have made an electronics engineer,

everybody need not use hacksaw blade and

we all felt bad when that thing.

But, then, he was strict,

you got to do, you have to chip,

you have to machine, no question, he will walk around.

Professor Anantharaman, you have to mention him.

He took us industrial economics;

full of jokes, students loved him

and all the programmes, your

all culture, he used to be the main figure.

He was a great hit,

and he used to crack jokes in the class

bit on the other side,

but, people used to love it,

people used to love his class.

There was one Dr. D. V. Reddy, he left subsequently.

He took applied mechanics

and he was great hit with the students.

Students will shout, "joke sir, joke sir" and

he will crack a joke; he was good and he left.

There was one Gangadharan, a very diminutive figure.

I mentioned him because, he took applied mechanics.

Again, a brilliant teacher,

I still remember his Taylor series expansion,

McClaren series expansion, right;

uniquely excellent teacher.

Later, he went to Thailand

and I heard that he settled down there.

Dr. Swaminathan, he was my great friend.

Physics teacher he came with the bow

bow tie and black coat to the first class,

taught us diffraction, you know him well.

And, diffraction, interference and all that.

Later, subsequently, he became, he left all this thing.

He used to be very friendly to me,

and particularly to me,

and we have spent many evenings in Bangalore together.

He was a bachelor till he died.

And, a fantastic fellow to know, unlike any professor.

There was one Professor Varma in chemical engineering.

Very methodical person, I used to admire his very

beautiful way to present things, very systematic

and I also liked him, chemical engineering.

There was one Seshadri who left, he was in chemical.

Very flamboyant figure, he will come to our hostel

and demonstrate Colorado movie and all that.

There was one Professor K. I. Vasu in metallurgy.

He was also in IISC, no, sir? IISC later.

He became director of CECRI.

Affection incarnate right, he is such a friendly guy. Yeah,

he left by the time I joined.

Yes. He will, if I have a problem, So, I have not...

he will make sure that he can,

he will extend some help to the extent he can.

Very nice person.

Among the directors, I admire this man, A. Ramachandran. Why?

The reason is, he set the tone for research in IIT.

Before that, it was purely an undergraduate institute,

he set this direction for IIT to go towards the research.

And. I think, I think, all that beginning is what

now paying us, we got, last 2 years, a number 1 rank

which is majority basically for... He used to encourage

young people. He will walk around research.

and whenever a young person is working,

he will go near him and encourage him.

"Is there any problem for you

to get stores?" He will go and ask.

Very good, wonderful, wonderful. Right.

Very rare person. Because of his personality,

academic personality, many people have left their jobs

from abroad and joined here.

Sheer personality, force of personality, I mean.

I used to admire him, he doesn't know me much.

I know. When I mention these people, as a student, I admired.

True, true. Do they know me? I was a small fellow.

True, true. After all the BTech, you know,

what made you choose teaching as a profession?

Are there any people or some Well,

my experience in. that you want to share with us?

foundry was not a good one on the health front.

As I said, professionally, I was happy.

There was one Belgian expert,

he was designing the things and he didn't know mathematics,

he didn't know how to use slide rule,

and so, I was helping him.

So, it was a good interaction.

I was doing the gating design and all that;

every night we used to sit and calculate.

I was learning a lot,

but, as I said, it was in Karamadai. Okay.

And, it was Alfresco toilet, there was no decent toilet.

Oh. You know animals will be around.

So, I told them, "I need a decent toilet,"

they said, "we give only to foreigners, not to Indians." Oh.

Then, I said, "okay," and came back

and asked Professor E. G. R., E. G. R., E. G. R.

Okay. "can I join?" He said, "you're most welcome."

Professor M. R. Seshadri. It's a boon,

boon to our in in department, I think.

Indians Any a discomfort for you

in Coimbatore became a boon to IIT Madras. Professor

M. R. Seshadri of Indian Institute of Science,

whom again, I admire a lot. He taught me,

ferrous metallurgy, ferrous foundry. He called me,

and said, "if you are going to join as a teacher

why don't you come here?

We have a foundry section,

and I know, you can do a decent job of teaching.

Why don't you come and join us?"

But my family situation is around Chennai.

So, I told him, "I would rather be here."

And, that is how, one toilet changed my career.

You wanted to talk about your friends? But,

I liked my stay in the industry. Good.

It was steel industry.

And, you know, metallurgy is And, you are still

full of metallurgy. connected with the industry, yeah, I am aware of that.

Every day, I used to go home only at 11 o' clock in the night,

see the last pouring

You are a rare academician, see it is defect free and then go home.

who is always connected with the industry. I love this.

I love to do. Friends, C. R. M.

He was our deputy director here,

he was a star in our department, you know?

He was a teacher for all of us,

I am very shamelessly telling you.

Right, if I have any doubt,

we won't even go into his room,

there is a window, we will all sit there,

from inside he will say charge is there,

this calculate that...Very generous fellow,

We all admired him for his scholarship

and brilliant mind. I have seen,

when all of us are struggling to get pass mark,

he will come out with a distinction

or near 100 percent, right?

When you are beaten in a straight competition,

it is very easy to admire a man.

There is no second thoughts on his brilliance.

Kripanarayan, he was in civil engineering first,

he is in a big time fellow now.

He designs all seismic...his only complaint is,

that lot of IITians in US

are doing very well in other fields other than IT and teaching;

"why you are not giving Distinguished Alumnus Award,

even though they are applying?"

The one complaint he had when I met him last time in California,

and I am just telling, just a thought.

He feel there are some...only there you are looking

at IT or teaching profession,

you are not looking at any other.

He has developed earthquake free buildings,

and they are all, their software's are very popular.

He says, people are not looking at those contributions.

And, I said, "did you apply?"

He said, "yes, we do apply,

but we are simply pushed aside."

Mahesh, he is a close friend of mine,

he belongs to the TVS family.

His Go-Kart was very uniquely popular on the campus,

he designed a Go-Kart by himself.

And, we used to go, I used to go on his Go-Kart,

he is a close friend of mine.

We also made a semi

semi-working a blast furnace for the department, in those days.

And, it was there for a long time, till they threw it out.

He is an engineering genius.

Three process control - pressure diecasting,

brake lining, gravity diecasting he has introduced,

and all of them are working exceptionally well. Alright.

K. Narayanan, also known as Ghost.

He is the binding force for 1965 batch.

I can't think of 1965 batch without Ghost, alright.

And, he is keeping all, the whole flock together.

Even now, we get in...

"oh, Amitabha died," I get information immediately,

Patnaik died, I will get the information.

Is he the same person...chemical engineering?

Yeah, yeah, very good, okay.

He is a very nice fellow,

no caste feeling, no religious,

no, no silly things, he will hug everybody; a beautiful fellow.

He is my friend J. Vivekanandan.

A unique story, we both studied in Ambasamudram

together in school,

and when I joined IIT, he was standing there,

I said "what are you doing here?"

He said, "what are you doing here?"

So, he did his thing, he is right now

fabricating very good systems

for food processing and so on, and brilliant fellow.

Kapoor, I don't know this man personally,

he was my classmate in 1965 batch,

but, I really appreciated him because, he started the film club.

He will go all the way to Mount Road,

bring that 60 mm thing on his bicycle.

He used to sit in the veranda of Building Sciences,

civil engineering and he will yank it up,

it won't work. And, then, we were always seeing the movie,

that's all the entertainment we had,

that is how our movie club started

and... OAT was there those days?

No. It started only in '64. No OAT. Okay.

Okay. And, it used to be the only entertainment for us.

I know, I know. Games or wait for Saturday evening Kapoor's movie.

Okay. He will bring some movie.

Good. Yeah. We all used to look forward to it.

So, you so, that tradition is still continuing. What.

Even now, it is Saturday evening movie for us.

See, what an enterprise,

for a young man.

When we were all struggling for my cycle,

for my education thing,

this guy goes on a bike, brings the movie,

shows it to all of for nothing,

not even an applause,

right? That, I call it the spirit of doing things.

That's true. Right? That is about IIT.

You cannot, but admire him.

I don't know the man,

probably, he also doesn't know.

That is about the thing.

Good good sir. Sorry, I am talking too much.

No, no sir its. Lot of interesting things. These topics are too close to me.

What were the major facilities, those days,

you know, in the department?

Not much, not much. When you look at it,

not much. Not much.

And, the projects, do you have a lot of industry projects?

Industry used to put in money?

When I was a student, there was practically no facility.

But, when I came as a faculty, there was quite a few Okay.

facilities were available,

but, not research category.

Okay, you left in '98, you know, sir or?

'98 I left. Yeah.

July 29th, my birthday, I left. '98, 29th.

Okay, okay. 60 years.

60 years, okay. So, so, those days,

basically, the major facility, electron microscope...

these things were there, those days?

Were there. Were there.

SCM was not there. SCM...

Professor Gokulrathnam, we used to hear a lot about him.

And then we had facilities.

Okay. The problem with a Metallurgy Department is, it was

too much fragmented. Yeah, even now,

So. That didn't...that we are in five different buildings.

didn't help us to have a synergy.

Correct, correct. We are trying to move into a new building, sir. So...

that, you told me that. That would be of great help. Very soon, very soon.

That's true. The synergy, that you meet your colleague...

like, when I worked in Singapore,

some quantum mechanics guy will ask me,

"can you melt this alloy?"

That synergy was absent to work together.

Lot of sponsored projects used to be there, those days?

DST? Where, which were the sponsoring agencies those days?

DST used to give DST used to give.

a major portion. Major portion.

UGC used to give something like grants,

they never used to bother about our report. Now, UGC doesn't give

to IIT because, IIT is under MHRD

it is not under UGC, so.

And Germans used to have a collaborative agreement

for some sort... So, all of you used to

go to Germany often, faculty? No, I went twice.

My problem with Germany is...

See, all my friends who went to US,

have developed very good professional contacts,

excellent professional contacts.

US, you are able to put yourself in an equal position.

In Germany, you are always patronized.

Okay. And, it is very difficult to get, you are always a newcomer,

and, you don't build.

I told this even to some German officials.

I have been there 2 years, totally, together I spent,

but what is the professional contact I have? Nil.

Even now, I am treated as a foreigner.

Whereas, I worked 2 years in US,

I have much better professional contact there.

True, true. Sir.

See...yes? Hello. Mr. Muthuraman Tata,

was he your classmate? No, no,

he was junior. Junior.

I see. He was a good cricketer.

And, even I am...

I recommended his name for Distinguished Alumnus Award,

even before he became all that famous. Correct,

correct. And, he is, you know, the vice president of

TISCO and all that. Yeah, he was a gem.

He is now settled in Bangalore.

He retired from Tata Steel. sir.

Yeah. I recommended.

Correct. In fact,

even Dr. Krishna's Das Nair was the first batch, I think, sir? He is

senior to me. 1 year senior to you, first batch.

I heard. But, we were all in the same hostel.

Oh Yeah. Okay. Nair, me.

Santhanam, Natarajan, all were in the same hostel.

You also had other roles, some administrative roles?

You were a head of the department for some period right? So, I was head for 3, one.

Warden I was there. You were a warden.

I... '87 to '90, I think, you are head of the department?

Any of those days, do you remember,

any major changes? Well, I would...

tried to bring. Okay. brought in a lot, lot of money I brought in.

Okay. Because I had a very good stores officer Chari.

We used to get all the papers ready.

In February, there will be a rush

because, there will be lot of money,

no effective programme to spend it.

Okay. So, the director will be asking in the senate, "do you have any plan?"

We will go and give it and

get. What was the level of funding you used to get

for the department? Can you tell me some number? Very low, very low.

3 lakhs per year for 25 faculty members. 3 lakhs per year.

For 25. So, there were about 25 faculty. 3 lakhs. 25, 27...

3 lakhs. So, just to tell you now,

it's about close to 2 crores.

1.6 to 1.7 crores, is what we get per year.

Then. I mean, that includes what we call it as,

you know, recurring, non recurring put together.

So, that's about one point for our department.

So, significant improvement and we are about 31 faculty now.

Okay. We... So, number of faculty did not increased much.

Never. Many of us But, the amount of funding has significantly.

never used to depend on department money,

Yeah. we used to give it off

True, true. to the head to spend it.

True. And, that money you used We used to depend on.

to distribute to all the faculty? Those 3 lakhs? Yeah, each will get

some 15000 or something.

So, their spare parts and all they can buy. Now, each

faculty gets almost close to about 1.5 lakhs.

Oh, that's a decent money. 1.5, that's the department...

in addition, of course, people have their own projects,

many of them. But, the end of the audit year money,

I got close to 2 crores to the department. Okay.

In fact, Professor Srinath told me,

"you are walking in with papers and

going away with money, what's happening?"

We were perfect. I knew the system.

We were perfectly ready with the papers,

quotations, everything; Chari was an excellent stores officer.

Right. We got, put the paper, get the funding,

because, nobody was ready.

What...all good equipment, we got SCM like that.

Yeah, yeah good. Good, good. All good equipment we got.

We got, we got that instronic,

instron machine we got it under that.

I myself bought a computer system for myself,

DOS based, 2 and half lakhs at that time, I bought it.

Any important experiences as a faculty you want to share?

Important experience. It was a good run. During your period?

The students were simply brilliant.

I have taught in Singapore for nearly 8 years,

no comparison. How were the PhD students?

You used to have a lot of PhD students, those days?

Good students. I mean, they were given scholarships and....

I think, all of them are now in US. So, so they...

Chinnathambi is in US.

Madhusudhana is in US.

Venkataraman is working in air force base in Hampton.

All have done very well.

Krishna Kumar is the present head of CAD centre,

he was my PhD scholar.

All have done exceptionally well.

Prasanna Kumar became a professor here,

T. S. Prasanna Kumar. Then later, he went, Yeah, yeah, he retired recently.

he became the head of the department. Institute of Science, he was also my student.

He was also with Tata Steel for sometime, I think,

what are the. Yeah he, He was brilliant, no doubt about that.

I mean, see one German professor told me, is brilliant.

"there are brilliant people all around India;

we have no doubt about it,

but when we take an IIT student,

we are assured of the quality, nothing more."

"See, I get from all backgrounds, Yeah.

but, we have to select. Yeah true.

He is good, though I select."

"There are brilliant people everywhere, True.

but," he said, "when you take an IIT student,

the average is assured to me."

That's all he said,

"the average competence is assured."

What are the major changes do you see over the years?

You left the institute '98,

its close to about 20 years now.

So, when you come to the institute and department

do you see things are changing for good? Yes.

Yes, I feel that the orientation is going from

the conventional industrial metallurgy, that is the thing because,

all the young people want to be in the main flow of research

that is taking place in the world,

they want to be in nanomaterials, tuff ceramics and all that.

In addition, we are doing a lot of work on steel, sir, for example,

just for your information, recently ministry of steel gave

I saw that, I saw that. 35 crores to us,

Centre of Excellence in Steel tTechnology. That's a very good development.

Particularly, as you rightly said, because auto industry is here.

So, this is A very good development.

a very good development.

Very good development, excellent development. Okay.

Ultimately, our country needs very good

old fashioned metallurgists. I go around,

True, true. we don't get many.

Many, all kind of charlatans and fakes are there, right.

We don't have a good seasoned metallurgist, we don't find.

There are few, they are all my own students or friends,

they are all there, not many, less than 5.

Any other memories you want to share with us?

Let me see whether I have any, my memory is not good.

Right and...IT, AI and robotics, 00:51:4,140 --> 00:51:15,720 everywhere they are introducing.

A time was there, when we were going towards computer department.

Now, they are coming to us.

True. This is the change.

And, all the IT, they are looking for application fields,

they are coming towards us. Earlier we used to go

to Muthukrishnan and all, now they are coming to us.

I think, department may like to think of,

say, artificial intelligence, IT, automation robotics

in NDT, all coming in a big way.

I think, you may like to position yourself. Sure

sir, sure sir. So, that our students also feel

True, true. good,

not conventional metallurgy. Sir, just to tell you, sir,

for quite some time, till now, I would say, till the last year,

we have what is called dual degree programme.

For example, if somebody joins in metallurgy, he goes

out with a BTech in metallurgical materials

engineering and MTech in metallurgical materials engineering.

We are starting a number of interdisciplinary MTech programmes. Excellent,

excellent. Okay, where somebody joins in metallurgy, let's say,

goes out with robotics as MTech. Excellent.

It is needed. He has BTech metallurgy, MTech robotics.

So, similarly, automation, data mining, okay,

I mean, big data is one and AI.

So, these are all the areas where we are starting. Correct, true. See, they are coming to us.

Its good time for us to position ourselves. True,

true. See, earlier, I had to go then, FORTRON

/400, I have to give the card, I have to be like standing in queue,

now, all those guys are around us.

"Right, do you have any good project to do?" That's true, sir, that's...sure.

Let us do. That Sure, sure.

puts in some sophistication to our field.

Physically fragmented department, I told you.

I think by next That is the main issue.

June we will be in our place. This is, this has...

otherwise Metallurgy department would have gone much farther.

Surprise...this is, just I put.

Peer group, this is a best thing I had in IIT,

the discussions I had in the bathroom,

in front of the bathroom, in the corridor, with my friends

they were the best discussions.

I had one friend Amitav Pattnaik,

he used to explain to me martensitic transformations,

both used to be in our lungis and towel.

Right, and the way he explained it is

far whatever was taught in the class.

Wonderful. True, true. The peer group is what makes the difference in IIT.

What teaches the IIT student -

Aim high, compete internationally,

give way to superior talent;

somebody superior comes, give way,

don't go stop him,

that's one thing we learn.

There are people who are above us. Correct.

So, when a superior guy comes

give a way and applaud him,

that's what I have learnt in IIT.

Because, we are all good,

and, even among the good, there were some better, right? True, true, true.

So, we have to applaud him. True.

There are no other way. True, true.

Do your job well. True.

So, the next man who comes to my job,

should know, he has to exceed that. Okay.

True, we have to set... Comments I receive when I go to industry,

they have they they always tell,

the undergraduates have a problem to work with others.

I received this comment not less than half a dozen of time,

they have some issue. They are willing to work IT,

but you put as a group and ask them to develop a design,

they don't do well, they have

some air and all that.

There are lot of IIT students who are not very good,

they suffer a lot by comparison,

there were guys who do very well in

California, make millions of dollars.

Let's not forget they are equally good number who have not done well. Okay.

And, many of the students are

off late, they are not interested in metallurgy, some students,

they come here just to get a seal, IIT Madras.

True sir. And, we are wasting a lot of money.

True, sir. This is a poor country

and... I will just share one experience of mine.

I used to teach these first year, we used to have

an introduction to metallurgy and materials engineering.

So, one of my goals in that class was, at the end of the class

to ensure that not many change their branch

and then they start liking metallurgy

to an extent. That they don't feel like changing That's a good.

the branch. So, metallurgy is exciting, sir, really. It's a good thing.

Exciting, but... Only thing is, people always

compare them... I can give you lot of instances

where students have made caustic remarks.

They would not like to do anything to do with

metallurgy in their life,

they will just go to business administration, or computers That's true.

"I am just here to get your certificate," they will tell to me. Correct.

Correct. I will give them a seal,

"you are a great guy, IIT product, you know."

Another thing I find is, you have got all bright students, nerdy students,

it may be good to get a Nobel Prize,

but, if in engineering we must go forward,

we should be like Cambridge.

We should admit some high level politicians

from various countries, their children,

some industrialists' children, because the combination will do very good.

I myself can tell from experience.

Supposing, imagine, a very big industrialists' son

is a friend of one very bright student,

they get together for 4 years;

the combination, just like Cambridge, Cambridge does it beautifully.

There are certain admissions they do

for people who are technically or scientifically or politically...

because, only study...he is a nerd.

You put all together, they go out and to life,

he can get a Nobel prize.

But, engineering needs some wealth. Correct.

It's wealth creation is engineering.

So, IIT should think...it is, there is nothing wrong

f a big industrialists' son is admitted

so, that he is put in touch with good bright student,

they become friends and that can be

an explosive growth for India...because this guy has the brain,

this fellow has the influence and money.

We should try to...Cambridge does it.

Cambridge does it, right?

How our all big politicians children go to Cambridge. We have to check.

Combination is good. Yeah. Whereas, here, everything is through JEE.

Through merit, merit, merit. That fellow may not.

Good. You can get a Nobel Prize, That's where the problem.

But engineering is not about that. That

businessman's son may not come to JEE. Finally, we have to create wealth in the society, right?

I understand. This, I am very clear

about it, because personally, I was benefited It's a good idea sir yeah.

by some of my friends who are well up in industry

Later, they used to call me, "why don't you solve the problem?"

It puts you in a very good position,

because, he appreciates you, you are with him as a student,

he has got a very high opinion about you,

he says, "come and do my job."

IIT Madras, very good peer group, I have told you;

staff and students are very fortunate,

unless you go out you will not realize it;

and can we do a cricket in research? This is my question.

If I look at our bright cricketer jumping around,

can we do a similar thing in research?

What...look at Kohli,

Jadeja flying. In my days,

the cricketer cannot even bend to pick up the ball,

they used to be fat, right? I don't want to name.

Pakistan versus India, 1965 I went and saw,

the opening batsman could not bend to pick up the ball.

Now, you can...look at, look at the way they are flying. Yeah, yeah, it's good.

Can we do a similar cricket in research?

I think, reasonably things are happening well, sir.

Well. But the, you know... We are well known...

uniform comment I receive when I go abroad,

from Japanese and all that,

"we are not able to use your data fully,

we are not, it is unreliable data,"

the one comment they make very often.

I say, "we are producing so much of data, why you are not...?"

The comment Japanese professors make very sharply

to me, "we like your ideas,

but we are not able to use your data."

But, we have to take it seriously. Seriously, sir.

So, we have to assure data integrity

when we do it.

There is no question of saying I am good, he is bad, no.

We have to assure it, because, there is a general feeling

and we are spending a lot of manpower, energy.

And, all our equipment have to be third party inspected,

I am very very clear of that. True, true, true.

They have...we have to bring in thing, check our

machines for their calibration,

sensitivity. No, we shouldn't do that,

we should bring...so, for example, Instron

it should be calibrated by outside parties Yeah.

and then, like NASA, where I worked

for 2 years as a contractor.

Then, that data becomes valid

and, lot of value is attached to the data...

two minor things.

Professor Nigam once told me, when I was here,

he was also my maths teacher, he said

"your job is at the table,

don't go around the conferences and jump"

he said; very good advice, at a very young age,

and I was only hardly 24, 25.

Just we were walking,

then I said, "I joined sir," he said, "very good,

remember one thing, your job is at the table,

don't go about attending conference and getting award,

that is not your job," he said,

struck me very well, right.

But, one thing you should appreciate,

I received good advice and tried to follow.

Alumni, I was thing...we did a few things in alumni.

Present, I am now a consultant to few...

I make multimedia educational DVDs. Yeah.

This, you're very famous with. Yes,

I also introduced level 1, level 2, level 3 for NDT - it's a great success.

All animated, all phase diagrams,

I have animated, they are selling very well.

Many DVDs I sell. I also make an equipment

called acoustic analyzer for testing components.

This also sells well and that's about it.

Just sorry, I... Mamata, you want to ask some things?

You didn't mentioned anything about the

Indo-German project with Padmanabhan,

what was it about?

The project was essentially to modernize the laboratory,

and he had one Instron machine.

And, essentially, to upgrade, but they call it as

upgrade the metal forming laboratory facilities.

So, it was not...

then, later, they took up one specific project,

initially, it was upgrading, the upgradation of the laboratory.

Sir, not for, I am sorry, metal testing or anything like that?

It was a metal testing. crepe and all that, the what is it?

Not crepe, metal forming.

I see, mainly metal forming? Metal forming.

Fine, sir, fine. Metal forming they did superplastic materials

and all that, that is his specialty,

super plastic material, they were doing all that.

Professor O. P. There are some photographs of your time,

Yes. we wanted you to just recognize them,

and maybe, you make a few comments about them. Yeah.

That is metal forming unit for extrusion.

another one. And, this is second one,

is in the metal forming lab.

This was set up by Professor P. Venugopal.

Yeah. Famous. And, he is a very well known

expert in metal forming.

Can you recognize the man who is doing the testing sir?

Not much. Not much. Not much. By any chance, no? Okay, okay.

But, the units are all Professor Wagener,

not the vibrations' Wagener, there

was another Wagener. Okay.

He was also a very...he developed the laboratory very sincerely.

Professor Venugopal was closely associated with him. Okay.

They set up all these facility. He is fashion about...

really. Yeah, extrusion and all that facility.

And, this is a unit that is Till there

This is still there. yeah, this also metal forming.

And, these are all old type...

nowadays, people have changed the electronics everything, considerably.

And, this is again, German equipment

for high temperature testing and so on.

Metal forming, deep drawing and so on...

they have so many areas.

And, these two, this is a contact pyrometer

developed by Professor H. Mohammed Roshan.

He was my very esteemed colleague. He...

He is coming next month, here. Yeah,

he comes every year. We both decided on fine morning that we will leave IIT.

He went to US and I went to Singapore.

Yeah, okay. Right and hard worker,

Yeah he is also a... beyond imagination.

see. And, this is again, forging facility.

See, that cup and all they do.

This is also, I think, some Metal farming facility. Yeah.

So, foundry someone doing there. Pyrometer This is again, the yeah, this is again, the pyrometer.

this is rather the same. Go to. Pyrometer.

Sir, right side.

No, not that, this is done. No, not that, not that,

below, below, here, yeah.

No, no, third one. Someone pouring that's...

Professor Roshan developed a unique process

called fluid sand process,

where the sand doesn't need ramming and so on.

Okay. And he did it, oh god.

and, he did this thing, he patented it.

And, they, I think, they made,

I mean, they sold it to foundry also.

Good. They are all similar.

They are all similar. Similar equipment, go down. They are all similar equipment.

Maybe, that one. So, this is possibly, This

is in the Mechanical Metallurgy department, shank Okay.

Okay. These are, you know, we do fatigue testing,

in a unidirectional... Okay.

These are all machines for bidirectional fatigue testing.

You can test the, an industrial component.

Okay. They had one smaller shank and bigger shank.

For a long time, we had difficulty in putting it into operation,

but finally, Germans as usual,

took it upon themselves and set it right

and made it functional. Very good.

This is an ordinary tensiometer. Yeah, tensiometer.

Tensile testing of a small sample.

Come down, there is a microscope.

This is the Zeiss microscope. Old. Zeiss

microscope. In fact, my old friend, he asked me

if this microscope is for sale, he will take it

as a museum piece for his factory. Yeah.

We all used to use it, it had projection facilities,

but later, I am told, it was refurbished

and it is working well. And now, we have very good ones.

Some meeting there?

That, I don't know.

That is E. G. Ramachandran.

See, how was young he is. The one is, in the centre, sir?

Centre, I do not know.

This is Srinivas Raghavan. That is Vasudevan, all young,

Very young. unbelievably young.

I would like to have this photo.

Okay. E. G. would love to have it.

Okay. Of course, too late in life.

This is again, this is an induction melting unit. Okay.

We had it, we used to melt a lot.

Professor Srikanta Kumarswami used to be in charge.

All kinds of alloys he used to,

he was specially brought in

for his practical knowledge for melting. Correct.

Melting, melting. Yeah. Even though, he is theoretically, he was, he had not studied.

People talk a lot about. E. G. R. specially brought him,

Steel making. Melting. so that melting can be done

for various researches.

He was working in Bhadravathi steel plant earlier.

Yeah. So, Chemistry lab. And, this is our Chemical Testing Laboratory.

We used to have a call, we used to

have a lab called Metallurgical Analysis Lab.

Maybe ore dressing. And, this is a regular microscope, Microscope.

they are counting.

That is Professor E. G. Ramachandran.

That is, I think, a politician.

Narasimharaya? No, no, no.

R. Natarajan you can see there, who passed away recently.

Convocation day. These are all various samples,

metal forming samples.

You can go to that one, this is... This is the convocation.

Who is the chief guest?

Chief guest, can you guess?

Sampath, Koch is there, Varghese, Sethunathan.

Professor Ramasastry. Yeah, if you tell me the chief guest,

I can tell you. Mr. Koch also is there in the...

Koch is there. You mentioned about Scheer.

Yeah, Scheer. Believe me, the whole Ebert, all those people seem to be there, sir.

campus was flooded with Germans.

yeah yeah yeah. We were fortunate.

N. V. C. Swamy is there, Professor Sastry is there.

As I said, Professor Sampath is there. Professor Sampath is there.

Really giants, I mean.

Incidentally, Professor Sampath's brother

was my guide, Professor Ranganathan.

Yes. I know very well, I know very well, I too know him quite well.

And, you mentioned about Professor C. V. Raman

teaching Professor E. G. R.

So, that way, you know, Professor E. G. R.

taught Professor Anantharaman,

Anantharaman taught Professor Ranganathan,

and he taught me.

And professor. Professor So, I am like a 5th generation connected.

Anantharaman also, I know very well.

Yeah, can you just go back,

he wanted to see one of them.

Sir, this one, yeah which is not so much here, no over.

The last one. Roshan, Roshan had some

Equipment. equipments

That was. This one. This is actually something which I share.

Okay, okay. We both took a patent on that.

Excellent. Okay.

Professor E. G. Ramachandran, Roshan and myself. Excellent.

This is actually some instrument I was using.

Ok. I wanted to use it further,

then, Professor Ramachandran said, "why not we patent it?

Collaborate and patent this. So, that is one of our

patents. We have a process called shell moulding.

And, the shell temperature has to be kept at

260 to 280 degree centigrade.

Okay. Otherwise, the moulds will be charred,

otherwise, it will be under baked.

For that, they, that time, we didn't have

IR cameras and all that.

So, this is contact eye. So, we used to use contact eye.

Roshan took a number of patents

and he was industrially very active.

Right. Yeah, This is the genesis of...

because general... Thank you, Professor

Professor Prabhakar. Wonderful. Thank you, thank you.

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Prof. C. P. Vendhan in conversation with Prof. V. Anantha Subramanian

It's my pleasure today to have a few words

of exchanges with my dear old colleague Professor Vendhan.

So, we were not only colleagues,

I was also a student under him while I was doing my PhD

and we have come to know each other very well.

So, with this brief introduction

I would like to get this interview going,

I would like to have a conversation with Professor Vendhan.

Morning, Professor Vendhan.

Good morning. Good morning.

So, this heritage series is supposed to bring out something interesting

for the viewers with regard to your own work and background,

your interests, your experiences at IIT Madras.

So, I should start by asking, please tell us a little bit of your

background from the school days on to graduation

and how you reached IIT Madras.

Ok. Schooling there is nothing much, I come from a village school,

but then I had my Bachelor's and Master's in engineering

from the Anna University College of Engineering, Guindy,

where I finished my masters in 1970; I joined IIT Kanpur for my PhD.

And, then when I finished 1975,

I went away to United States as a postdoctoral

fellow - University of Massachusetts at Amherst, Massachusetts.

I would say looking back, my career at IIT Kanpur as a student

probably one of the best in sense, that

I've learnt a lot and the academic freedom that

I enjoyed there I still cherish that. In fact, I often repeat to my colleagues here,

former colleagues here about that environment, as it is.

So, that way I would say that in my student career that was probably

the best, the golden period.

Fortunately, I had the opportunity to visit the University of Massachusetts

as a postdoctoral fellow and all my education has been

in the field of structural mechanics you can say.

Even my postdoctoral work was in the field of structural mechanics.

Although I had some - I used to peep into other topics,

but this was primarily in the field of structural mechanics.

By the time I finished my postdoctoral work in 1979 October,

I did not want to settle down in the USA,

I wanted to make a career in India.

So, I convinced my wife who happens to be a doctor

and we already had a 2 year old daughter at that time,

I convinced my wife that we will go back to India

and then make a career.

So, we landed in Chennai towards the last week of October

wife and daughter and me unemployed and then

I was sure that I'll find some job.

So, we settled down here, fortunately

our father-in-law's house was there in the place

where I am living now, nearby.

So, they were taking care of us.

I went around; obviously, the first

visit was to IIT Madras.

I went to different departments looking for some faculty opportunity.

Then somebody suggested I should meet the director

Professor Indiresan. In fact, they gave very

nice account of him,

radical change from the previous directors.

And so, one day I dropped in there and he was kind

enough to see me without appointment.

And so, I went into his room, he made me comfortable and

it was a stroke of luck: Professor V. S. Raju was sitting there at that time.

So he told him of course, I briefed as to what I have been doing

and what I did in the United States,

then he told Professor Raju, here is an young man

why don't you try him out in your department?

Obviously, we cannot hold a contract position like now

where they can offer a faculty position,

instead they said we will consider you for a research associateship,

you put in an application.

So, I did that. Meanwhile, I also had an interview at BHEL

R and D in Hyderabad;

there was an advertisement and a friend of mine

who worked there suggested that I apply.

So, I've attended that interview.

All this happened sometime in November - both the IITM

application for resources associateship and the BHEL job -

and sometime late December 1979,

I got both the appointment orders. One from BHEL R and D

for a deputy manager with a basic pay of 1450,

rupees 1450 that was a permanent job of course.

And, IIT Madras offered me a 1400 per month consolidated

research associateship; of course, it's considered to be a temporary, uh, slot.

I didn't have much- Doubt. -hesitation in

deciding where to go

because my heart was on an academic career,

where I can do research and teaching.

So, I immediately told my wife I am joining IIT Madras;

of course, she probably would have felt happy

because she can stay on in Chennai.

Ok.

And, perhaps expand her medical practice.

So, that is how I came here and I joined IIT Madras

and fortunately there were a couple of faculty whom I knew

like Professor Ganapati. And

so, that way, I was not a total - was not a total stranger there,

Professor Raju put me on the wave- not wave energy

project - the ocean thermal energy project.

So, he said that we will form a group

and you will be coordinating it

and I also started doing something on the floating systems

for the ocean thermal energy.

So, that is how my career with the IIT Madras started

and eventually there was a faculty advertisement

and then in September 1980.

I was selected as an assistant professor and

I - I joined formally as a faculty member.

Right.

So, that is about my entry into IIT

Right.

Madras.

So, on a lighter note

possibly your wife did not mind missing that rupees 50 extra

you would have got at BHEL compared to the salary that I -

No, at that time we didn't. After all, we have come back from US.

Yeah. So, you have some greenbacks.

Money is the last thing in your mind, you know. You are right.

So, that way.

You are right.

But, my aim was

to settle down in an academic career and- Right. -so, I

didn't have second thoughts before taking up this job,

although it was only temporary;

because I was sure that I will somewhere get an appointment. So,

In the academic career.

I think on the more serious side,

I would say that you were simply driven by the passion

and - Yeah, I would say that, I mean in fact,

my postdoctoral work was in the field of structure mechanism,

where I did some work in the field of

elasticity and I also guided that 2 MS students.

Right.

And, closely associated with a PhD student.

So, that way I already had a research guidance experience so to say.

Right.

Informally there. So, that way I was

looking for a continuation of that career.

Right. So, that is how I ended up here.

As I just said I know it is the passion in you

that has made you to take on many works,

I will come to that later. So, just now I will just pick on one thing;

you said you enjoyed your days in IIT Kanpur the best

and I remember you telling

time and again during our interactions much year later,

how you used to take your assignments on term papers,

isn’t it? Yeah. that's right. That's - IIT Kanpur

at least in those days, I don't know about it now,

Yeah.

they had a good many of the

important courses like the finite element analysis, then

a non-linear vibrations course which I took.

Yeah.

And, also I did a course on stochastic

problems which was started by Professor N. C. Nigam.

Who retired as, uh, Delhi IIT Delhi director,

eventually. He also has a book on random vibrations

and he also taught Professor Narayanan, he was his PhD guide.

So, all these courses had term papers and I took it very seriously.

For example, I did a very good term paper

Professor Nigam liked it on stochastic problems,

then for the non-linear vibration problems

out of my own interest, I worked on a very serious problem.

On non-linear vibrations of plates

and that was eventually published in as a full paper

in the AIAA that is Aeronautical and Astronautical Institute of America.

Yeah.

It was published as a paper.

Even as I was a student

and I was supposed to be working in the field of

non-linear dynamics of shells,

that was supposed to be my topic right from the beginning. Right.

And, I had almost spent 2 years by the time I finished this job.

So, then it occurred to me that I will switch over to

this non-linear vibrations as my PhD topic and

from then on I took another 2, two and a half years to complete

Right.

my PhD. So, I continued my work in that field

and then I finished my... So, you also in a way

went on to work in fluid dynamics,

although structural mechanics was your

Yeah. In fact. first interest.

When I joined in IIT

IIT Madras in the ocean engineering centre at that time,

it is well known that ocean engineering was emerging

Yeah. as an interdisciplinary area and it is a combination

of structural engineering,

foundation engineering, fluid dynamics

or hydrodynamics than naval architecture.

It is not a merely a combination of

people having expertise in each of these fields,

actually every one of them should have

some basic knowledge of each of these Alright.

sub-disciplines.

So, quite early in my career there I realized that

I should learn enough of each of these disciplines.

Yeah.

And, although I was only a structural mechanics

man, that is how I started very seriously

and an interesting thing happened at the time.

One of our colleagues at that time

who was teaching hydrodynamics -

in fact, most of the colleagues were from the

SYL civil engineering department there.

Some are of course, from outside,

they were teaching for example, Professor Raju and Professor Ganapati

came from civil engineering.

One in foundation engineering, other in structures.

Structures yeah.

So, like that we had a colleague

who was teaching wave hydrodynamics at that time.

So, he resigned the job, went away to Kuwait

and for some reason Professor Raju called me and said,

you teach that course. yeah.

I said ok, I mean the traditional response

would be no, no, I am a structural mechanics man,

I cannot teach fluid dynamics.

Since, I realized that I should learn enough of fluid mechanics,

I said yes and then I started learning.

In fact, if one has good applied math background,

switching over is not a problem.

Absolutely. And moreover as civil engineers we did study hydraulics.

So, that was not out of my memory.

So, I took it very seriously and then I started learning.

Then I went through a lot of important references in that

and again another stroke of luck

just at that time that was in the early 80s I would say,

one gentleman dropped into my room from ISRO.

And, said that sir we want to do

you to do a project on slosh dynamics. Slosh in dynamics.

I said I am basically a structural mechanics man,

no sir, somebody said that there is a one

youngster who has come from United States.

You try because the people in the aeronautics

department said no we cannot do it,

we've not worked in that area, we will not do it.

And, they went to even Kanpur IIT and

there also people said no we've not worked in this area,

we cannot do it.

When he came and talked to me I said ok I will do it,

because just then I was learning fluid dynamics and I said I'll do it.

And, then they wanted to develop in a

finite element based slosh dynamics,

since I had background in finite element

I readily agreed and that is how I became deeply involved in

fluid dynamic problems and eventually it became a fluid structure interaction,

that has become my mainstay

almost the entire career;

I was pursuing that; with my earlier strength in structural

mechanics and the one which I acquired during my career

in ocean engineering department in fluid mechanics,

it became my career in a fluid structure interaction.

Great.

That is how it happened actually. So, can I also

correctly state that your development those days with

regard to this sloshing problem was adopted as a

code there successfully in-

That's right. space programme.

No, it-it-it was ironical; they came to me, they had

in-house code on two-dimensional analysis.

Right.

And, since the launch vehicles go in

In fact, they were developing the PSLV

launch vehicle at that time, you know.

So, they these vehicles will go at an-

angle yeah. - attitude, angle,

they said they should do a three-dimensional modelling.

That is how they came to me.

I did not know the implications of that.

But, I knew that I can develop a three-dimensional thing. So,

I developed this three-dimensional thing and in those days

data preparation etcetera was big pain

in the finite element. Yes.

But they did use my code...actually. Yes yes

And, then after an year of interaction,

I forgot about them and they also forgot about me.

But, then we still had a good interaction

because one of the major projects we handled for PSLV

was in the structural analysis part. Ok.

PSLV second stage,

first stage and, the fourth stage.

They had requirement for buckling, vibration

and stress analysis. Right.

And, I had an excellent partner in my colleague in

I should say former colleague in the applied mechanics department

composite centre Professor R. Palaninathan

So, I knew him before from my Kanpur days.

I know you used to go almost brothers around. In fact yeah

People from IIT Madras in those days used to visit PhD students-

Yeah. visit IIT Kanpur because we had IBM 7044,

considered to be the biggest in the southeast Asia Yeah.

for their computation. And at that time I of course,

came in contact with him and we are friends actually

that is how I came back and refreshed.

In fact, ironically I should also mention the man who introduced us

to PSLV projects is none other than Nambi Narayanan. Ok.

And, he met us in their guest house in the

Poes Garden, they had a

Ok. guest house

at that time. Ok yeah.

I don't know how he caught our names,

he invited us there, both I and

Professor Praninadhan met him there. He said so,

we have - we are now developing the PSLV technology

because, just then they finished successfully the ASLV project.

And, he said that we have a requirement for

this research analysis, buckling etcetera.

And, in those days there were no package

programmes of the kind that we have today,

they had their in-house program and

we also want somebody else to develop parallelly

so that it will reinforce the project

and some day when the rocket flies,

I want somebody in Chennai to point to that,

I have been a part of that.

No, the more important thing is

you have given a very intrinsic contribution

you know. And, we said yes and that is how it started.

Yeah. Unfortunately, I never had an opportunity to meet him again.

Yeah.

And there was a big turmoil.

Yes. And, now he has come out of that.

Correct.

Probably when I happened to be in Trivandrum

So I had tried to

Yeah.

meet him and then

probably recollect and recapitulate this early thing,

that was the only one single meeting. Yeah.

After that the other people met us and

eventually this slosh dynamic thing also it came in. Yeah.

And, to end that slosh dynamic story, year 2010

I retired formally at the age of 65.

2010 May. And then

I was fortunate to get a appointment as a Emeritus professor,

a 3-year contract first and then a 2-year contract eventually.

And, somebody from in fact,

I would say that almost everybody except from some

older people have retired from ISRO at that time.

Who were associating with me in that slosh

Right. project, you know they have retired.

Yeah. And, some youngsters came here

and then they met Professor Krishnankutty

who is a professor, who also, he is also my former student - Yeah.

PhD student. They met him and said that

we want somebody to develop two-dimensional finite element model,

an exclusive model for our slosh dynamics

with some additional analysis requirements.

Yeah.

And, then they said - he said that, oh

Professor Vendhan who did

Slosh. your

3D work in the mid 80s,

Yeah.

He is still around. So, they came to me.

So, I have been part of that project.

So, I completed that and in fact,

they are using it for their PSLV,

GSLV they were very happy with that.

And, I am still continuing

I mean, there are remnants of that project in an informal manner.

I am still continuing. Yes.

So, that is I will say one of the most satisfying interaction

Yeah, I know.

with ISRO where they were able to do that actually.

I know, Krishnankutty used to say

that he is officially the coordinator, but you were doing all the work.

Yeah. In his modesty Of course

it is usually like that you know, very often.

Yeah. For example, even the project

we jointly did for DST you know

Right yes. On the small water plane.

Yes, yes You were doing the work and I was officially the coordinator,

but then that gave an opportunity to learn I am - I am very happy

- happy to think of that Floating body dynamics and all that

Yes. So in fact, I have

Yes. I was not merely

a paper head. So to say, you know

I was learning floating body dynamics.

Yes. And, naval architecture.

So, that is an opportunity - No, but in all honesty

I must also say that when I picked my PhD problem

possibly barely consulting you,

I forayed into the strapdown accelerometers and

deriving the motions which of course,

led to so many equations to be solved to understand. Yeah.

And, I used to go around in this institute to other departments

because you were on sabbatical or on leave at that time in USA.

So, I used to- No, I - I went away to Canada

Yeah. on

So. earned leave.

You know I was very brave, but I was not

sure, if this doesn't work, what do I do. But,

there I have to say you gave me a beautiful analytical

insight into the basic problem of resolving that initial value problem

you know. Yeah, basically I all learnt it on the job.

Yes.

I never did that before actually. So,

what I would like to highlight here right now,

I know you will be too humble to state it,

but I would like to state that with your clarity of thinking

that analytical thinking, one thing we used to see

in the department faculty or students,

research scholars across all faculty

used to make a beeline to you to resolve their problems.

No, in fact - my early days as a research guide Yeah.

Yeah. in ocean engineering

Yeah. was not without any thoughts.

So, all my students need to work on numerical

modelling and theoretical problems. Yeah.

And traditionally in fact, I would say that

although I may say it at the end,

but I will say it now. IIT Madras

was an extremely orthodox setup academically and

socially also. And, over the years it has changed.

Yeah. For example, I would say that Professor Indiresan made a break.

Right.

And, a drastic improvement came about

during time of Professor Ananth.

Yeah. The liberal thing.

Yeah. He - he is the one who used to

think very liberally in an academic and

Yeah. social sense.

So, that way my early days when

this orthodoxy of academic thinking was there, Yeah.

people will say, no experiments at all in your PhD thesis?

I will say no experiments.

See my strength is in theoretical modelling.

Yeah. and numerical modelling, and that is what I will work on.

So, there is no need to have an experiment. So,

for quite some time I had this problem. Right.

Even very recently some of the younger colleagues

came and reported to me this is what they are asking sir,

I said you don't worry. You give the same reply.

Yeah. Yeah,

please go on.

In fact, as I was saying the point

to highlight was that you used to happily share your knowledge,

your insight, your discussions with almost

anybody, which we were seeing all the time

take any of our - In fact, that is, in fact

Yeah. I- I was into this culture

from my student days in IIT Kanpur-

say, IIT Kanpur had an excellent computing facility.

In fact, I used to criticise our computing facilities in those days,

it is no match to that in many respects

and when we go to the computer center as a -as a group,

Yeah yeah. we used to work on - in fact, we took a

course on numerical analysis.

It was a compulsory course for all PhD students

and, we did 14 computer - Courses.

Not courses, exercises. Exercises.

You have to develop a code and then solve an example and submit it. Yeah.

So, you can see the kind of strength

you will get if you take it seriously. Absolutely.

That is the one which really gave us an inherent strength.

Yeah. And, while doing that we will always discuss with our fellow students

what problem he is working, what

Yeah. errors he got in his thing...So,

that mutual exchange and

Absolutely. sharing of the experience

was ingrained in me even as a student. Right.

So, it came in handy - so

Right. wWhenever somebody

some PhD student has a problem or faculty has a problem,

they will come and discuss with me. I will

in fact, very often I say that I may not be in your field. Yeah.

But, then the very fact that you discuss it with somebody else.

Absolutely.

will probably tell you Probably some

of the thoughts. Where you have gone wrong.

Yeah. So, I

used to give a passion sharing. Yeah.

Sometimes I learned from their experience.

So, that has been one of the good experiences

Yes. I have been having in ocean engineering.

I- I would put it that you are a

beautiful example of how to share knowledge because,

when you share knowledge you are not just giving,

but you are also getting as

That is right, it's mutual. there is a saying.

And for me that has been an example in my mind all the

time which is what I have also tried to do in mind.

In fact, I have never been very protective of even the codes I have developed.

Absolutely, I know that, yes I have always allowed people to use it.

Yes.

Even without acknowledgment, people have used it.

In fact, I am happy that somebody is able to use it.

Yeah. And, I am able to see the strengths and weaknesses

of the code that I have developed. Yeah. And I can improve on that

basically, that is the kind of thing I have done. Yeah. That that requires

a great courage, you know, to be able to say

try working then let us see if there is any flaw and we grow better out of it.

Yeah, rather than thinking that this is my code I cannot share because,

why I say this is it often happens in the

academic intellectual community that many people

take a disproportionate sense of possession of

what they are. Yeah. Unfortunately, I used to

criticize them, Yeah.

our colleagues, Yeah.

that we are unnecessarily very possessive. Yes.

I mean at least in the field of knowledge you need not be. Yes.

But, that has been the, I mean

I don't know by training or by nature. Yeah.

Many people have exhibited that kind of

Yes. possession you know, it is not good actually.

Which to me is not the true sign of knowledge. Yeah.

Because, knowledge brings humility and you are a good

person - personification of that

Thank you. which I would like to put here, yeah.

Because coming to these projects, I probably would like to say a

few thing about the projects I have done.

In fact, I have done a very modest number of projects

only, unlike some of the colleagues who have been

very very active including you.

In doing projects, in the ocean department. Now, you are putting me in light.

I have done very modest number

of projects and fortunately this has been

only for ISRO and the DRDO.

Yeah.

These are two major agencies for which we have worked

and ISRO I have already mentioned about the PSLV thing.

Right. We worked for about 5-6 years.

Although they were meant to be consultancy

projects, they were actually research projects

because they were spread over 5 years.

So, that was one successful project

where we were happy to see that it's being used.

Right. and you see things flying. In fact,

I think about 4-5 years ago there was actually one PSLV flight

the trajectory was oriented towards Chennai.

And, as I was going home around 4:30 in the evening,

I actually saw the thing; I was reminded of

Nambi Narayanan at that time.

Until then I never had a chance to point to the skies.

So, that that was a good thing

and the the next one was in the early 90s.

I think when Professor Ravindran

was the head of the department,

I was abroad with my family in Canada,

Toronto, Canada. I was not here and Dr. Kalam

who was the director of DRDO and then RCI. Right, right.

He was the chief guest. Yeah.

And, he talked to Professor Ravindran, he said

is there anybody who was worked with underwater things and all that.

He mentioned my name because I did a project earlier too.

The in fact, I was working with the Prithvi missile project.

Short project with that. Right.

So, I had some association with DRDO.

So, he mentioned about my name and Professor Ravindran.

He said, why don't you visit - all of you visit me in RCI Imarat

which is adjacent to DRDO,

we have something very important in mind.

We went there, I think it was probably a Saturday, I remember that.

So, the officer looked very deserted.

So, he said that we are now embarking on an underwater missile project.

It is a classified secret project.

And, we want you to work with us and then

fill up - DRDO is doing and they are only air missile

group. Right.

And they know nothing about underwater.

So, we want you to help us,

we said yes and then immediately said that.

In fact, he immediately he typed out the offer letter to us.

And, he read it and he found there was a spelling error,

he went in, he himself had typed it, corrected and typed it.

And gave it to us. And, he instructed

the one Kukilia was there,

he is no more, who was the project

manager at that time of this particular project.

He immediately said that take them to the launch site in Balasore

now itself, and then let them stay overnight,

look at the facilities. So, we did that: we

flew to Nagpur and then from there by road we went there,

stayed overnight, looked at all the facilities there.

And, then came back, that is Professor Ravindran,

myself, and Professor Chandi.

And, then we were on it and in fact,

for over 2 decades we worked on that

problem, the various aspects of it: the hydrodynamics,

Yes. data analysis, the stability...all that, you know.

Yeah.

And, they were constantly posing as a

problem and we have been working on it.

I mean for administrative purpose

it was probably divided into many projects. But

it was a continuous one, we worked for almost for 20 years.

Yeah.

And that was an excellent experience for us and then in fact,

they were very happy and they gave to this team

team consisting of Professor Chandi. Chandi

myself, and professor. Yeah. Battacharya.

In the year 2011, they gave an award called the

I know, I know. Academy excellence award, that was probably

the second year that was instituted. Right.

And they were very happy with this collaboration and that I would say,

in fact, now, it was much later it was made public,

the government acknowledged that we have an underwater

missile project which will be launched from submarines

particularly the nuclear launch submarine,

but at that time it was just a having a code called K 15.

I see. And that is what we are working on and that

I mean, matured into a real this thing.

So, that was a, in fact, a very Yeah.

I mean satisfying experience,

I mean at least you can say. In fact, when I left USA

only the Indians, Indian friends

used to ask me, you are going back to India,

leaving this career here. I said yes. Yeah.

And now, once in a while I hear some people used

to say when when I tell him during discussion I came back

from USA after 4 years of stay,

why did you come back?

So, I used to tell them, you see the kind of projects I am now working on.

Yeah. The PSLV and the underwater missile.

So, it gives me great satisfaction so, Yeah. Maybe

if I had remained there, I probably would have published

many more papers. Right.

Definitely I would not have this kind of a

satisfying experience. Satisfaction. Yes, yes.

So, that way I would say that that is the another

long term project in which we made

A mark- and enduring contributions and-

it was recognized by- from the Yeah, recognized, it was recognized.

But, we probably would not have bothered about that

I mean if there was no recognition, we would not have bothered.

The fact that something is flowing Yeah.

I mean flying

Yeah. was recognition enough for

at least for me. I know.

I would say. I know that.

I mean what you said is correct. Yes

Because, around that time, that is probably in the early

2010 or something like that, you know, I used to see some

emails floating around among our younger colleagues.

Yeah.

That agency like DRDO is getting a lot of help

from us and never acknowledges us,

so, you better be careful and all that. Ok.

I always thought it was misplaced. Right.

The satisfaction you get is what you have developed. And, then Yeah.

you see it is being used basically, you know?

The next project, yeah No, I just wanted

to emphasize because it's so important because in India

as I have seen it, our level of self confidence is sometimes in question.

We need the other person from outside the country to be- Yeah.

-to tell you oh you have done good work.

So, the recognition never comes from within till

That is right, yeah. somebody else outside tells you.

And, now there is a new culture they have yeah. We should change that.

And, it's important and I think these two

works you have talked of the sloshing dynamics,

spacecraft related and the missile programme related;

see, it is a beautiful way of developing our own confidence.

That is right. So, I think this message should go through this interview

that we need to build up that self-belief and self-confidence Yeah.

while still being rooted with humility

Yeah. and being open to questions.

I say this because I feel I see all these qualities in you.

This is not to put a word

Thank you once again. but to say that

this is so important for the scientific temperament,

not to hide things and also to be able to be open to questions

and to have the willingness to exchange and help others.

Yeah.

Yes, wonderful.

The two more projects, I will just mention before we go on to other points.

Yeah.

The third project we handled, it's not chronologically ordered.

Yeah.

The so-called tow transmitter body for the NPOL.

Right.

They want to tow a body underneath, it's about a metre long.

The towed array.

That will have.

Array was not in our perview. Yeah.

It is the towed body. It will send out Yeah

sonar signals. Yeah.

It will bounce on a target and the array behind will pick it up.

Right.

So, they are developing that.

A detection. It was a unique project in the sense,

they just gave the size of the body.

Right.

And they said that you develop everything,

the hydrodynamics of it,

the structural analysis, design

and fabrication. In fact, we have...at the

end of the project we have to deliver them the body.

Right. So, in that sense it was a total project

and again we as a team: Professor Chandi,

myself and Professor Bhattacharya, we worked on it.

We did a lot of hydrodynamic model testing

and a structural analysis and then design,

we engaged an outsider to do the mechanical design.

And the team did the fabrication using

titanium, that is what they wanted.

And then it was delivered to them,

again it was stretched out to about 3-4 years

and it was successfully towed. Right. In fact

it was stored in a project called Nagan

and even now I look back whenever I visit NPOL

and then, in a big group

some higher-up or this thing when I am introduced,

they will say they are the ones who did that Nagan body.

Yeah.

So, that kind of a recognition was there. Definitely,

yes. I mean that was fully satisfying that you have

done something which is working.

Right. Of course, now they are onto a bigger body and then

they are trying to make it work. Yeah.

So, this is another thing and in the year 2010,

when I started my career as Emeritus faculty,

interestingly, the ISRO came back to us again,

they said we are working on the so-called

human space programme, at the time it was called like that;

because the government has not formally approved a project on that.

But, they were developing in-house technologies,

different components of technology - that is how they work.

Right. They first explore the different technologies

and in-house projects, they get approval and then do that and then finally,

an entire mission is put together.

It is only recently as you must have seen

the prime minister set a target that in 2020 you should Yes.

just fly - this thing and this was called. Nagan mission. Yeah.

What is that called - Gaganyan.

Gaganyan.

Gaganyan mission. Where they will put a human in the...

Space and- An important component of that is a capsule.

Capsule. Capsule in which two astronauts will

Yeah. fly and go into orbit.

Right.

And, ISRO wanted to test

the impact dynamics of that and the hydrostatics of that.

The reentry.

Reentry. Yes.

I mean it will come under. In fact, they were working

on the American concept.

This is a conical shell.

And, the American concept is that will

it will be parachuted and it will come and impact on the-

unlike the Russians where it will land Land on ah

on earth. dessert.

This will land on water.

Yeah. So, they want to study the impact dynamics on water.

We said ok, we will do that

and we did scale model of that, we did impact test in our.

basin.

Basin. Yeah.

And then I developed a,

in fact, at that time they also wanted to test

the hydrodynamics, when this is floating.

and, exposed to wave, they wanted to find out whether it will topple.

Yeah.

They want to put some buoyancy spheres, Spheres.

whether it will topple and go down or how long it will remain there

Yeah.

until a rescue team.

Comes and- goes and picks them up.

Yeah.

So, at the time I had two choices: one choice

is to buy an expensive software to do hydrostatic analysis.

At the time ocean engineering

field there were some softwares available.

Probably 7-8 lakhs, if we bought it or if they bought it,

it would have been much more expensive. Yeah.

But then I said that I will simply develop a code from first principles.

So, I developed a code for hydrostatic stability.

Alright.

And, then I attached this spherical modules.

And, then we were testing, we just a

plotted the entire - calculate the entire

writing moment versus inclination angle.

And, then pinpointed

the hydrostat- hydrostatic stability characters of that. Yeah.

So, these two things were done and then handed over to them.

So, they were happy at least, the hydrostatics part.

I don't know, now they may be buying a software and doing it. Yeah.

But we made a simple in-house software

and then we handed over to that.

So, that was probably the last project I handled.

In my career and then my

stint as the Emeritus professor ended in 2015.

Alright.

And, then I was formally retired so to say.

Yes, but of course. And, I still continue of course.

You would not retire

you must be still going on I still continue, there is one PhD student.

yes. working in acoustics and then. Yes, yes.

Wave-guided acoustics of course. Yeah, yeah.

And, then I also spent some time in the NIOT group.

Yeah. In fact, that is what I wanted to also In addition

to being in the review meetings, Yeah.

This is an actual hands-on work. Right.

In fact, I am a person who believes in working with my own hands,

whatever problem I take I would like to make a model and then implement it.

Yeah.

Unfortunately, now that the skill is lost

because people develop skills in developing

in using canned programmes.

I. I don't have any complaint on that,

but as long as you use it wisely and intelligently, that is fine

because you cannot develop codes like that now.

So, when codes are there should do that, but then

I am bred in that tradition because

when you are students, there are no codes available.

So, you have to develop a, learn a numerical technique,

develop a numerical model,

code it, debug it and then test it.

Yeah. So, I was bred in that tradition,

I am still doing that and then that is what I am doing even for NIOT.

I am making small codes so that they can do it, then I told them that

I will tell you how to use the canned programmes using this as an input.

Right.

So, that is basically what I am doing. So, I am

still continuing that I am happy about that, I am still able to

healthy enough to continue that work.

I think it's also very fundamentally

important because the moment we lean on somebody,

then we are going to pay a heavy price.

One is, our own development will stop.

That is right yeah. will depend on that, the second is

these black boxes will never tell you what are the limitations in them.

Yeah, that is right. So, unless they come out with the better version

when they will say this is better than the old version.

No, limitations can bebe appreciated if you gain the expertise.

Expertise.

But, to some extent. In fact, I always say this.

Yeah.

The package programs give you an excellent

opportunity to become an expert. In fact, that is how I learnt

a lot of finite element modelling.

You can experiment your thoughts and then numerical models

using a programme that is already available.

It also...the other flip side of it, that also makes you lazy.

Yeah. If you know how to prepare the data, you will get your results

and, then pull on in your life. Yeah.

So, these are two - Yes. Sides of that

and perhaps people should use the other side of it

Definitely. you know, then you become really expert

Definitely,

no doubt about that. You learn the basics and then

look at the code and then what it does just go into the-

In fact, I always tell them whenever you want to use a code,

read the theory manual first

and the references that are given in that

theory manual that is how you become an expert in that code. Right, yeah.

Not just by making data and then getting a result out of that.

Absolutely, I wanted to get down to some other things that is

yeah you are talking of your interactions with NIOT.

Yeah.

You have perhaps handled some projects for them also.

in the course of development. Basically, in the field acoustics

Because. Professor Bhattacharya was the major thing in that.

But, I have been mainly reviewing things for them actually. Ok.

I was also sharing their acoustics group and then reviewing projects.

Yeah. And now of course, in my I mean hands-on

capability I am helping their deporter I think as it is.

Ok. But, then my interaction with them has been very

heavy. In fact, some of the senior people there

I have been in their recruitment interviews.

Yeah. So, that way I have a longstanding this thing.

Correct.

And, in appreciation of that they've also given

an award in the year 2015.

Ok.

The Ministry of Earth Sciences they gave an Right.

award, that is the Outstanding Ocean Scientist of the Year award.

Great.

I think Professor Ravindran was the brain behind that.

Yeah.

So, they gave an award, uh, That is wonderful.

to recognize that as it is.

Yeah. Yes. So, I continued to interact with them. Because they are very receptive.

So, I am happy as long as you make me feel wanted,

I am willing to give my Yeah.

knowledge and expertise

irrespective of the, I mean, rewards and

I am doing that still actually.

I have, let us talk of some other things you have

done at IIT Madras besides the teaching and research and projects. Ok.

What they call as the corporate life you know. Corporate life

as you were drawn into it as- I mean because of the

formal procedure, I became the head in the year year 1997 I guess. Yes.

I would say candidly that that was very uneventful,

I mean there is nothing much for me to do.

Yeah. Except that we were focusing on maintaining our

test facilities, excellent test facility that we have had.

Yeah.

And, when it was over sometime in year 2000,

3 - 3 years stint you know and I don't know,

it was a very strange thing; Professor Natarajan was the director at the time.

He called me, I don't know who gave him that advice,

I mean I was known as an academic entity rather than

a corporate entity. And a little bit

candid in some meetings of course.

Yeah.

And, everywhere I stress the need for basic

research and then Yeah.

support for that and all that.

For some odd reason, I don't know who gave him the advice,

but he called me and said would you like to take up the

Chairmanship. Chairmanship of the

Exchange. Exchange works committee.

Yeah.

For something again, I didn't think twice. I said yes.

Good yeah. Although, I would have repented

that in a lighter way in you know, as I went along. That was a 2 year thing.

Yeah.

But, I would say that I enjoyed it,

in the sense that I am basically a civil engineering Yeah.

graduate. So, the civil engineer in me has

come out I think when I was sitting there.

Right.

I was able to appreciate what they are doing and then correct them,

Right.

as it is, and Professor Natarajan was very very supportive.

Right.

That was a period when we took up large

projects in terms of renovating the buildings. Right.

Both in the institute, rather in the institute,

the quarters, as well as the hostel side, you know.

Yeah.

So, I was a part of that, that was a hectic task, handling lot of contracts.

I also brought in computerization of the design office. There

Right. We brought in a - we bought design projects,

design software and Right.

then we also had

The transition for the manual. bought some computers

Yeah. So,

I initiated that. And, we also inducted Yeah.

quite a few people into that. Right.

There was a dearth of this thing

and Professor Natarajan was very insistent

that our campus requires a cleaning, it has never been done.

So, I took it very seriously and then there was a

French company called Onyx.

Right. We got the contract.

Yeah.

And then, they did cleaning of this one.

In fact, I used to say with pride that I walked in

almost every dirty corner of this campus,

along with the representative from Onyx

to point him what cleaning he should do,

because they always charged by the weight.

Yeah.

I mean he will collect the trash

and then they weigh it and then IIT has to pay per ton, Yeah.

a few thousand rupees you know. So,

I did that, I took it very seriously and

a lot of people probably knew about me, the campus people

mainly because they would have seen me in the

hostel sector everywhere. Yeah. In the shopping center,

I will go to the dirtiest part and say remove all this dirt and then clean it up,

I did that. I also took up this lack of

serious water supply infrastructure. Right.

And in fact, we suffered and lived through that.

In fact, during my stint as the chairman, we had one of the worst

water shortages. We went through really - in fact,

some of the people still remember the

kind of things we have done in those days.

Yeah.

And, also our sewage treatment you know. Right.

That was also very dismal. Talking of that I remember,

you took the steps of deepening the lake.

Yeah, at that time.

Because of water shortage. You created a

supplementary artificial lake?

No, we had an oxidation point for name's sake,

nobody ever bothered about that. Right.

There's an open channel that will lead

from the campus to the Buckingham canal

via the Tidel park.

It was an open channel which was not kept up and of course,

near the Tidel park it was underground

and its oxidation point was was terribly outsized

because our campus size,

Yeah.

population has increased quite a lot.

So, as a civil engineer I thought we have to focus on that.

So, I convinced professor Natarajan to give Natarajan

funding. So, we built two large sums-

one in the institute area, one in the That is what I am saying.

Then we convinced the Alumni to

fund one of the overhead tanks in, near Mandakini. Right.

Right.

And, more importantly we have simply

closed that oxidation pond, instead dug up two bigger ponds.

And, then we also put entirely underground

some 1 or 2- 2 metre dia - pipes.

One and half metre I think pipes,

all the way from the edge of our campus to the edge of the Tidel park Right.

to carry this effluent of that.

And after that I think people in the environmental

engineering, they have taken that and then they have

put a new treatment plants and all that. Yeah.

Yeah, more modern treatment plants and all that. In fact,

I look back even when I happened to meet any of the

engineers in the engineering unit,

I make it a point to ask them. Yeah, how is it doing yeah

How is it doing, what improvements you have made. Yeah.

And similarly in the water supply side apart from this

I used to ask them what kind of chlorination do you do?

They said we use chlorine gas.

And, then if you may recall that once there was an accident and then

Even Vana Vani school was closed because, it was close by

where they are doing something.

As it was a foolish thing that we have been doing.

Nobody ever bothered. Basically,

it is a foolish thing that we have been doing.

And, then there is what is called hypochlorite solution

which is about 5 percent or 7 Percent. Yeah.

and that is what is usually used. And, then

they have switched over to that and they have

installed a plant which will inject

this hypochlorite solution and I assume that they continue to do that.

See, some of the things which I took out of my own interest,

but then I convinced Professor Natarajan to fund that.

And, then he had again like cleaning the campus,

he had the initiative to start the survey of the campus.

In fact, many of you must have seen those nice colour

huge maps at the road. Created, yeah, yeah.

So, this survey was done during that period. Ok.

And, we engaged a company in Bangalore. Right.

They did a modern computerized survey and then

And, created those maps. this one and then they handed over that

data. And, now they have put that in that

map in the digital form and then that continues to be used as it is.

Alright. So, that also happened during that period.

Right.

So, that way, there is a wholesome you can say in addition to renovation

Absolutely. we also modernized many of these things.

Yeah.

I-I know. So, that is that being continued now

actually. Right, in fact I remember because I was the warden of Alak.

Ok. And you gave me unstinted support in doing many things there.

Yeah, that is right Those days, putting wonderful

flooring for the mess room etcetera. Yeah,

that is right yeah Was not done yet,

but you gave me solid support, we could execute.

So, that is this 2 years as a SA chairman. Yeah.

Was a total this thing on my - drag on my academic career.

I actually did nothing.

Because most of the time I used to spend there.

Ok. But, then at the end of it I said ok,

this 2 years is well spent.

Yeah. I can always now revive my academic careers.

You have. You have less left there No problem. But, then I did something

Yeah. That is worthwhile and I can look back.

Yes.

Even now you can see the imprints of that

as it is. People have. You have a lasting

imprint in the whole campus. Yeah and

then people have continued on that you know. Yeah.

So, in that sense I would say that that was a 2 year well spent.

Although, it was non-academic and then.

Nothing. In fact,

immediately after that career, fortunately

Professor Ananth did not think of extending that,

I don't know what I would have said. And

my wife said that at the end of that no more corporate

assignments. By that time I had

to move out of campus because my wife left her job here. Yeah yeah.

So, I was commuting every day towards the end of my chairmanship.

And, one day when I was driving

when I was near the Mount Road during a -

Professor Ananth called me in the midst of dean’s committee meeting.

And, said there is a proposal that we

offer you dean administration.

And you refused. And immediately I said no, no, no.

Because what my wife said was

fresh in my mind.

So, I was You were allowed to refuse, is it?

conscious enough what to

say no and then fortunately that was not Ok, yeah.

revived.

Right. So, to say as it is.

I just wanted to put it on record again because, if you remember

the club staff club when I was also the professor Yes,

you did a nice shed. You gave me wonderful support.

Yeah, I wish that they had continued and then Yeah.

that has been alive.

Yes. But other for some reason

I mean We made a nice little kiosk there and. Yeah.

In fact, during my time Yes.

there was also a strong proposal to

demolish that shopping center, old shed and

Correct. then do that.

Correct. At that time, I think the funding

position things like that. Yeah, it was

People deferred it. Yes, yes.

And, eventually it-

It was. I am glad to see that it has been done eventually.

Yes, that is true.

So that's wonderful and I just wanted to touch upon one last thing there.

Let us come to the - you have seen a generation next generation of faculty,

younger elements Yeah. In fact, I have I would say that to summarize

this the entire stint Yeah.

of year 1980 to 2015. Yeah.

Initially, it was started with core faculty drawn

from mostly civil ah. Civil. Background

and fortunately in 1982,

you were part of the Naval Architecture group. Yeah.

With civil engineering at that time.

We had a very lively time. Fortunately, in 1982

Yeah. it- it has been annexed or amalgamated

Amalgamated. with

The-I think that was a wise thing so. Yeah.

We became richer by that experience I would say.

Yeah.

The knowledge of- Combining.

Naval architecture you know, Yes.

came to ocean engineering and then

the next generation faculty started

Yeah. coming in because the faculty who have been

trained in ocean engineering itself, either PhD or

postdoctoral work. Right.

So, that has been a good break from the past.

So, that was a positive thing. Yeah.

And you know, in fact, I see them most of them doing very well, extremely well.

Alright.

And, that tradition is continuing and fortunately Professor

Anantha started a tradition, that he will do recruitment

frequently and that is being continued now.

Yeah.

So, that we are able to get a fresh young talent into

our thing and also they had this contract appointments. Appointments.

So, I would say that this, ah,recruitment process

has really renovated our faculty thing what started as core

old timers who will be trained in the ocean engineering.

For example, I would say that I am

trained in ocean engineering, I learnt in ocean engineering on the job.

Yeah.

In fact, I used to joke sometimes

IIT has been paying me the fair processed salary

Right. for someone who has been only learning on the job.

In fact, I would say that the best thing I enjoyed

in my career is learning.

Yeah. That has been a continuous process for me, even today I do that.

Yeah.

So, that way most of the people earlier

were learning on the job. But, then

maybe beyond 1990 we started

recruiting faculty who were actually trained in hardcore ocean engineering.

Yeah. And, then that has been the greatest strength I would say

Right.

that has happened to our Yeah.

department. But, talking of

a teacher learning I think it's a very honest statement if you say

that a good teacher has to be a good learner all the time. That is right,

it is very very important. Yes,

yeah. Otherwise you get outdated in no time.

Not only that if you start

believing that you know everything, then you stop learning.

That is right.

So, I would say the ability to say

'I don't know' is a very important thing.

Yes. This is what I tell my students, I - I do hope you agree with that

philosophy. Yes. In fact,

you - I might have to said I don't know in my early part of the career. Absolutely.

At least when I came back after the lecture,

I would recall yes I did not know this.

Yeah.

So, in the next class I will definitely-

go back and tell them that. Yeah. So you learn and get

Better. Better and yeah. We do that in fact.

Would you like to, I know you wouldn't want

to give a word of advice,

would you like to give a word of advice to young faculty

from all your experience? No, basically what

I used to tell any faculty. Yeah.

If you think that you have strength in a particular discipline,

Yeah.

you continue in that one because, do what you do best.

Yeah.

But then, do things that have a high degree of difficulty

that I will give you the maximum satisfaction. Satisfaction.

Do not worry about the - take criticism

strikely and then you continue, if you do very good work.

Yeah.

Of high degree of difficulty, Yeah.

it certainly will bring fruits.

So, don't worry about that. Absolutely.

And, of the new crop of people who are using all these canned softwares.

You cannot escape that.

Yeah.

Because, that brings in the wisdom and hard work of

huge number of expertise-

Right, right, right. - experts, basically.

So, use them because that is the best way to use them for refuel problems.

Yeah.

But then, become an expert

Yeah. in using them and not merely a user.

Yes. That is another advice that I would like to give

So, that your conviction grows to the youngsters as it is.

Yes. So, that way you can - when a new version comes in you can really appreciate

Yeah.

what is the difference and in what sense it is a better code than what

you already been using you know. Yeah.

These are probably true advices I used to always give the youngsters.

So, I would like to reinforce that I think that is very

important, I absolutely agree with that. idea, yes, yes, yeah.

There is one more thing which I wanted to touch upon which I left out earlier,

your stint with the naval research board

as chairman of the hydrodynamics. Yeah. In fact,

I remember in our work with DRDO,

Yeah.

I remember that in one of the review meetings in DRDO,

conducting DRDO, Dr. Kalam simply walked in.

And, then he said that he was a very informal man,

he said that we want to set up a center.

of excellence which will do hydrodynamic research.

Right. Because DRDO they - is going to develop

more and more, this underwater missiles and

we want to learn underwater Right.

technology and develop it.

And, after coming back Professor Bhattacharya and I

put together a small document

where we can set up a centre in the ocean center.

Centre of excellence and the funding requirement things like that.

And, it was probably lying with the government for some time.

And a couple of years later

maybe at the initiative of Dr. Kalam himself,

the government came with a proposal. To set up

this, I remember one Dr. Siddharth discussed that

in the - our IC and SR building

in the new NIOT that has

just started, it started here.

So, he spelt out the goals and then

Oh. the panels they are embarking on, and things like that.

And, Professor Ravindran has become the head of the so-called

hydrodynamics panel.

Right.

And, I was a panel member at that time Yeah.

as it is and then we

when he eventually relinquished that and became a chairman of the board,

I became the - Head of the - Panel head.

and then I had the opportunity for about 6 years or 7 years.

Yes.

I was managing that and then

reviewing the new projects and then reviewing a project progress.

So, that has been again a great learning experience, I would say. Yeah,

I would like to ask one question with reference to that

because you always had the philosophy, correct me if I am wrong,

that research should be open ended.

Yeah, in fact. It's not just my philosophy,

the - Dr. Siddharth when he spelt out this,

if you go back and read the

the naval board or research document objectives, it always says that.

Yeah. It should be open ended.

Right. It should be high end.

Yeah.

It should not have any immediate application,

it should have only long-term application. All these are

spelt out, although now there are forces which are That is what I am asking.

pulling it away. That is why I am asking.

But, this is what -ah- has been spelt out there.

So. And, we often - whenever I recommend a

project with - people sitting there try to cut it

short and then I recollect and then reinforce that

goal and then we always encourage Yeah.

this open ended, Right.

high degree of difficulty projects as it is. Yeah,

because as you said now, there is a slight

change in that thinking that they want it also to be application oriented.

So, my interpretation is the difference between science and technology.

That is right, yeah. Because, you need to have their technology

for which you need the science, to understand. Yeah.

So, I-I would then say that don't we need to guide

But, I think the-the-the members. In fact,

if you remember a new panel was started in the field of hydroacoustics.

Right. Hydro and vibro acoustics.

Yeah.

So in fact, I took that initiative

a few years ago, but the main support came from Dr. Bhujanga Rao.

Yeah, right.

He was the director of NSTL and Yeah.

then eventually became director general of naval systems.

So, he always sits in the board meetings.

And, in one of the board meetings I made this proposal,

that it is a very important area and very few people work.

And, if you have a panel we can now try to enlarge that

and then he readily supported that.

And, then I went through about 2 years of exercise

making presentations in different groups and then I finally submitted that

and it was approved. And, eventually

Professor Bhattacharya is now the panel head;

I am of course, I am also a Right.

member there, reviewing projects.

So, I tell him that whenever you attend the meeting

please look at this tendency of the people to

pull you back to purely application oriented projects. Right.

And, then tell about this this thing maybe

they have a point that we have been in existence for several years

Yes. so, there will be some application, that is fine.

Right. But the main goal of open ended, high-

Is to get the fundamental research. take a research, should never be diluted

Yes, yes. you constantly put forth this point and hopefully you will continue on

Yeah. at least some few more years with that goal

in our mind as it is. Right, I also

want to bring to the viewers one other another aspect in you,

you have a wonderful sense of humor

Thank you.

Which I have heard from so many, very

intelligent jokes that would come out.

Let me just share one which you will also remember,

you know there was a time when our road had

little, little potholes and what not and of course, the city roads

are far more beyond control.

So, there were as usual our IIT colleagues

mouthing loudly how to maintain the city roads.

So, you told me very nicely

we cannot manage our 10 kilometers of road and we are

telling them how to manage the 100s of kilometers outside

I-I like that down-to-earth way of- No, even

sitting in the engineering unit as a chairman, Yeah.

I always used to criticize those people.

Yeah.

We have a small campus and a big setup

With lots of money . we still find so many shortfalls:

leakage here, pothole there, that is just not possible. Yeah, yeah.

I mean we lack something somewhere. I used to tell that actually.

So, like this there were so many other jokes I remember

which was always fun you know, cutting across barriers. And,

the most important I would like to again record is your

absolute down to earth humility,

the openness, the willingness to interact with anybody

at any levels and absolute gentlemen.

Thank you, maybe I will close with an anecdote.

Oh, Please.

Perhaps it is for maybe two of them for for a record's sake.

You know early in my career as I said

my students work only on numerical modelling.

Right.

And, we had only the so-called IBM PCXT and AT.

Some of you may remember that.

The tabletop computers just came in. Yes, yes.

PCs came in and we were having only - XTs were a lower end and ATs were

Yeah.

And even if you have in fact, we had only 1 XT

in the entire department. I know.

It will work all the 24 hours.

And, my students would do

photon coding, large-scale photon coding. Yes.

And, they were discussing - M. Tech students of course.

Yeah.

They were discussing among themselves,

hey, does your guide know any coding at all?

He is asking you to do so many codings.

So, he was not sure and in one of our meetings

I mean, since I was open with the students,

they never had hesitation to tell this to me.

So, I said that I have done a

lot of coding right from my student days. So that

I do a lot of coding, although

I know that some of my students do better coding than me.

Yeah.

But, I have done a lot of coding. Yeah.

So, I told them that and the very first visit to IITM

campus, looking for a job after I came back from USA,

I went to the director’s office,

there was the director's secretary; I forget his name.

I told him that I would like to meet the director,

he said no, no unless you have an appointment you cannot

Meet him and you cannot get an appointment in the near future.

Then I went out and then took a slip

of paper and then I said that I am Dr. C. P. Vendhan,

postdoctoral fellow University of Massachusetts, Amherst.

USA, I wrote it and then I gave it to him.

He looked at it, immediately he took inside.

And, he said wait for some time,

he will meet you. You got your appointment.

I got my appointment.

Because, of all your - And, then I started my career.

right right.

I -I don't know whether whether it I would call it as a bluff or a

true thing. Definitely not a bluff

But, that is what has happened actually. Yeah,

that is wonderful yeah. So, it's been so, nice talking,

I-I think we can conclude at this stage.

Thank you so much.

Thank you. Sir, can I ask for some questions.

Sure.

The - you said that 83 some,

it was some funding was came to me, ocean engineering part

I remember 83 silver jubilee year,

the director signed agreement to Germany for about 6 major projects.

Yeah.

One of your project season was in my field. It has Ok, ok.

ocean engineering, material science, and about three others.

In fact, why I am asking is I think that was the time when the Germany

started funding the ocean engineering. Yeah,

they gave a large chunk of money too. And, do you remember how much

funding? I don't remember the amount

probably. Maybe 5 million Marks or something right.

Yeah

In fact, almost all the test facilities- Something of the order of 5

million Marks, is what I remember. And, who was the coordinator if I make any

It - it was I think, Professor V. S. Raju and Professor Ganapati

were the main people who are handling it.

We were all working for it of course.

But, whatever you see there by of waymakers

- waymakers and all that,

they all came from German funding, actually and-

Since you are working with the ocean,

you know long long ago over 60 years back

looking at the article which appeared in one of the journals,

I wrote an article: Chemical wealth in the Sea.

The idea was how do you recover magnessium and bromine

Ok ok, that is deep ocean mining, yeah.

Does your department have any interaction with the CSIR land.

No, actually, the NIOT you know, national ocean technology

has a department working on ocean mining.

If NIOT. NIOT they have done great strides,

they have recovered sample, they have a crawler.

And, some of the colleagues in ocean

engineering department work with them on different aspects of that.

They work for some chemicals. Yeah, in incidentally I am now

a consultant just for a short while, working with them

and, one of the problems I am looking at is pumping of the slurry,

all the way from the seabed to 5000 metres up the surface.

And, I am trying to advise them on who can do that

hydrodynamic problem and also this deep water cables, etcetera;

I am helping them with that, but they are the ones who are doing work.

I see. Ok of course, they have collaboration with NIO Goa who have recovered samples.

But, these are the people who actually put crawlers

on the seabed up to about a 1000 metres they have put it.

Now, they are trying to increase on that, they have done

pumping from about 500 metres already.

They want to now increase it to about 1000 metres,

they are doing it step by step.

They are the ones who are doing hardcore work in this field as it is.

And, Professor Indiresan saw me in your department after the retirement.

Yeah, he had this soft corner during his term here as a director.

He had an - Professor Raju had an excellent rapport with him.

I know. He had the soft corner for our department.

In fact, he used to visit us frequently and even after

his retirement he had a - a honorary professor rather

as an appointment as a Professor with our department.

I would say that it is his blessing

that really helped the ocean engineering department

or center at that time to get a large

chunk of German aid and then also give priority in

many other things. -department here.

In fact, people like him also had the opportunity to visit under that grant

and spend an year in different German universities.

Berlin, yeah.

And so, the German aid is

was an inseparable part of the ocean engineering department I would say.

In fact, I must be thankful to your department in the sense in 1988,

I was already the chairman of JEE

and then I had to hold conferential meetings

and I could not think of coming to this place and hold all the way

from that place. So, the ocean engineering department I think

who was the head of the department

and they gave the conference room. Room.

The entire conferential work, I - we got it done. Yeah.

In fact, I am reminded since you mentioned about JEE,

I am reminded of an anecdote. We go there for counselling

Yeah.

on behalf of our department and a couple of times I have been there.

Right.

And, generally I will be very honest.

I would not think I am coming from

Ocean engineering, they will come for NIOT,

I mean naval architecture councelling

and if somebody has a very good

admission in some other good institution like Anna University etcetera;

I will advise them honestly that,

I will tell them the pros and cons and I will advise them

that that is a better opportunity.

And, about I think in 27, 2007 or 6,

one dual degree student who worked with me for this project.

On the day he finished his viva voce exam on his project,

he told me, sir do you remember you adviced

me on the day of counselling.

I and my mother were there, I had a

triple E admission in Anna University,

you advised me seriously to join that,

but my mother said IIT.

I have to be in IIT, at the only branch I would get this ocean engineering,

I mean naval architecture and then I am here.

So, I was really

I mean surprised that I-I never remembered that.

But, I have been generally very honest,

I-I would not mislead him saying that I-I also tell him,

you want an IIT stamp, be here.

If you want a-a good branch etcetera,

if you are very particular about that take that, if it is in a good institute.

Can I say that the ocean engineering department,

it is a department of I can say applied work,

most of the thing is applied work. Yeah, it is an applied thing,

but even there we have what is called ocean science.

Research and development.

that is right yeah yeah. Is the main focus of Ocean engineering, you could say it like that.

You know for example, way back

in the United States after the World War, you know

when many experts, scientists moved to USA like

Tymoshenko; they called...they started a discipline called engineering science.

Yes.

So, people are wondering in those days you know

what is this engineering science, that is science we know

where you do basic research in engineering and technology.

So, now, you do what is called ocean engineering science.

So, where people do basic work.

And then of course, you take it once you're further and make into

ocean technology and apply it for example,

what NIOT does and what many of our colleague do,

they are all ocean technology. Some do basic science

perhaps, I was in the border

between the two: science and technology.

In fact there in the initial stages of a department,

the staff were recruited soil mechanics. That is right.

Yes. then -.

Yeah, soil, structures; but I mentioned that- the-it was started the core faculty

who were drawn from the civil engineering department.

And, then it became a full fledged ocean engineering

center and then later a department eventually.

Today, we have even petroleum engineering.

That is right eventually there is a Petroleum engineering

which is still further from yeah. Further from that of course,

I - it is tied down- moved down to ocean engineering,

they call, what is called the - Upstream.

Upstream. Of petroleum engineering.

I mean upstream is actually downwards

I think it was a long time ago there was a lecture in geology

in civil. Civil engineering yeah. Muttaya

And, after he left I think the geology shifted to ocean engineering only.

No, even before that Professor

S. P. Subramanyam with geology background

moved and then he started working on marine sediments and all that.

And, these people have been managing

I think without him and I don't know I mean

making lot of arrangements, I don't know Thank you.

how they have been managing that,

but we did have a person with the geology background,

but focusing on marine geology,

sediments and things like that. And also in fact,

either one was put together a report on ocean mining,

this nodules on the seabed. He has put together a report actually.

I see now why I mentioned about

magnesium was that one of the one of the compound,

that you can derive from this magnesium is - plate.

It's actually magnesium, aluminium and some carbonated all that. Ok.

And, this particular compound is used in Germany,

they suddenly, in the name of the mineral itself;

it is called hydro tile. It is anaeonic plate

and in fact, another thing is, using this the central salt and mineral can be-

have tried to produce biodiesel.

Ok.

Biodiesel they have to use quite a lot of catalyst.

Ok. This is one of catalysts that has been used.

No, but you must have heard recent years about the marine hydrates,

gas hydrates you know. Yeah. So,

NIOT has a small activity on that.

But, in the ocean engineering department we have n colleagues

who are doing lot of research in marine hydrates.

So, if you can probably meet them if you are interested actually.

Ok, sorry for interfering in between-

No, thank you.

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< Back

Mr. V. Koteeswaran in conversation with Prof. R. Nagarajan and Prof. C. S. Swamy

Good afternoon Mr. Koteeswaran.

Welcome back to your alma mater.

Good afternoon Professor Nagarajan.

Very glad to be here. Yeah. So, nice to have you.

But I do come here once in a while. Ok.

I have been here about 6 months ago. Right.

But before that a couple of years, before. Ok.

So, I got a special attachment to this place.

And you graduated with the first batch 64. Yes, it is true.

Civil Engineering. Yeah.

So. Long time ago.

Yeah. Just tell us about your life journey afterwards, just briefly.

Well, once I finished my studies here,

I went looking for a job in Mumbai.

And I did get a job with a consultant,

for salary of something like 400 rupees a month or something,

which I thought was too low.

Yes, I thought did, but too much about myself even then.

So, I I said I will think about it and I I did not fancy that anyway.

And in the meanwhile, I my father had contacted a friend of his

to see whether he can

get some contacts to offer me a job, and

I got an offer from London saying that

if I am willing they are prepared to take me on and try me.

So, so I have came back from Mumbai fairly quickly

to get all the visas and things were arranged and

I left India in August 64, about 6 months after I graduated.

Went to London, and joined

the company was then called CJ Belle and Partners.

They were consulting engineers, structural engineers.

And I joined them as a

the designation was an assistant engineer

and slowly from there I went up.

I was there for about couple of years before I

went and did a postgraduate at University of London

at Queen Mary College.

Did a Master’s Degree in Advanced Structural Analysis.

And came back and joined the firm again

because they wanted me back.

And slowly I went went up in the ladder,

5 years later I was an associate of the company.

10 years later I was Director of the company

and I stayed as a Director until I retired.

With the same company.

So, I did work with them for about 39 years and a few months.

So, it was, I enjoyed my work.

I think it is very important for people to

enjoy the work rather than

treating it as a chore and a necessity.

I enjoyed my work tremendously.

So, there are some some buildings

in London which are my hallmark.

And slowly and gradually

of course, as you know when you go up the ladder

you you forget the engineering part of it.

And you become more of an administrator

or a planner for the firm

and I tried to avoid that as much as possible.

So, I was, I had my hand in design Ok.

for very long time as a Director

which I think I was the only doing that. For very long time as a Director

which I think I was the only doing that.

Enjoy, I enjoyed designing especially conceptual design.

So, I did then more than 100 buildings conceptually.

Most of it in England a few in the far East.

I was sort of little bit involved with the

Stock Exchange Building in Mumbai.

And the Asia Stadium in Delhi.

Not much, but a little bit.

My speciality was tall buildings basically. Ok.

Especially, the lateral stability of tall buildings.

And I always, was one of my ambitions

to design a seismic resistant building.

But I did not get a chance because England is not a seismic area

and because of that I wanted to go to California

which is the place to be.

In 1970, I think it was

I did get a scholarship to go and do a PhD at Berkeley. Ok.

University of California.

And we were all set to go my wife and I,

and we had applied for a resident permit,

and not, in those days it was not that difficult

it took a bit of time, but we had

we had our green cards ready when we land there

But a last minute I changed my mind.

Did not go and stayed in England.

And I had a lot of incentives to stay as well,

which I used and at that time we were

looking for a house to stay

because once I decided that I am going to stay in England,

then there was not much point in renting a place.

So, so England is a place where people

would like to buy their houses

rather than rent, sure

which is prevalent in Europe.

So, we bought a house and stayed there and carried on. Ok.

So, how did, how do you think your education at IIT Madras

play a role in your, enjoying your career?

Yes, I think my education was primarily the

the reason for my jumping up from the ladder.

In in England because by far I was the most liked graduate

in the company because of the acute knowledge of

structures that was imparted to me

while I was here.

One thing that I did miss was

not knowing the codes of practice.

Which comes on by experience.

But I I would say if I were I give some advice to

any institution or anything like that,

I would say they are part of the curriculum must also

be the rationalization of the codes,

with what you are learning in theory.

Why is the code slightly different to, what you learn,

and why why is that in such a way

and what is the basis for it.

That would give a lot more

incentive for people to go into

private practice or things like that instead of a a public service.

I think that is very important and that is

one thing that I had to learn

but I think the basic education and the basic

structural knowledge that I had even at a Btech degree was Right.

quite something compared to the local boys. Sure.

So, I found that

even though it is only an undergraduate degree,

some of the things we teach are not taught

at least at that time in England

until you come to do a postgraduate.

Of course, different countries have different ways of Right.

imparting knowledge.

So, I am not saying it is wrong or right

It is just in my case it was used for sure.

Did you also go through the extended

engineering drawing and workshop classes and?

Either here? Yeah.

We we had workshop classes here Yeah.

and we had engineering drawing

Yeah. as a subject.

Both machine drawing as well as Civil Engineering drawing

But funnily enough,

once I joined work I I never did a drawing

because they wanted me to be the designer

rather than their draftsman,

which I did not appreciate that very much to start with

because sometimes it's

it's better to draw something

to know what you are designing

instead of just designing and leaving it is for

somebody else to interpret your design and draw it.

If you do it yourself you know what you want

But that was the way it was in England. Sure.

They have a draftsman as a separate set of people

and their design is- it's a separate set of people.

They work together, but one does not do the other.

So, one of the reasons for that was

possibly the draftsman are not engineers. Ok.

They are basically draftsmen.

They do a little bit of engineering,

so that they understand what the engineer says. Right.

But that's about all.

Maybe that was the reason for it.

And the the the in the UK the

the feeling was that a designer

should not waste his time drawing

which I thought was not the right

way to look at it, but that was how they were.

So, I could not change it Sure.

because that was their country’s practice

It is a it is different for an architect.

An architect designer also draws his own drawing,

but for an engineer it is they are completely bifurcated.

And it it goes on on different planes basically.

But, so do you think design should be a part of the curriculum? Sorry.

Should design be a part of the undergraduate curriculum?

Definitely I think so, I think so, because the first thing

that hits you when you go to a design office

is your theory is ok,

but unless you know how to design it after the

theoretical results you are not considered an engineer.

So, I would say it is not like doing a research project.

It's it's different when you do a consulting. Right

Practice, it is different.

And my experience it is all with consulting, not research.

So, the the practical aspects of it is more important.

And I think a short review of that Sure.

could be very useful for an undergraduate study.

So, what about your hostel life?

You were at Cauvery, right?

I loved my hostel life, I was in Cauvery.

I had some lovely neighbors there,

Krishnadas Nair who was the chairman of Hindustan

Aeronautics Firm was my next next room.

And we used to have a lovely time.

I remember the the problems we had with our food

for the first 6 months,

when we were in not in not in Cauvery Hostel,

but we were in a different hostel in Saidapet.

Little Teachers College Hostel.

And the South Indian guard was not very happy with the food

because most of the food was chapati and sabji.

And so, there was a bit of a hiccup to start with.

But afterwards the food became so good that I used to-

I used to go home on a Saturday morning

because I did not want to miss the breakfast which was very special,

on Saturday morning.

And I used to go home and then I

again I used to come back on Saturday night for two things,

one is for the biryani on Sunday night

and the other one is to see the the Open Air Theater film Right.

which was about 8 o’clock in the evening or something.

So, yes I enjoyed my life at Cauvery very much.

So, what are your best memories of the campus?

What is the thing that you remember the best and?

The best memories of my campus is

the interaction I had with with the faculty.

2-3 professors who I considered my mentors,

Dr. D. V. Reddy

who who did the applied mechanics for us,

then professor of Civil Engineering

who recently passed away.

Professor Verghese. Yeah,

him and Professor Sankaran

who took solid mechanics for me.

They were, they became very good friends afterwards.

But at the time they were real mentors for me.

So, so, so I remember the interaction with them very much.

Especially Dr. D.V. Reddy who helped me

I think it was a third year

when I have suddenly fell very ill during the final exam,

and I could not write the exam,

and he fought for me to have a re-exam

and we came back.

And because of that 2 or 3 other students also

had a chance to write re-write their parts.

And I cannot forget that

because I could have lost a year.

I I had met Dr. Reddy afterwards just while.

He was he was a professor in all sorts of universities in

in the United States,

the final one being in Florida.

And I met him once when he was

travelling through London to Chennai.

And we had lunch meeting and it was very nice.

I met my Civil Engineering professor 4 years back I think.

I went to his house and met him and

and I was very sad when he passed away.

Are you still in touch with your batch mates?

Some of them, some of them.

In fact, I am seeing 1 or 2 on on Saturday.

But it is the the exciting thing about is

it is not just my batch mates, my batch mates yes.

It is not my Civil Engineering batch mates.

I have lots of friends in all the other

different disciplines as well.

Chemical Engineering, Metallurgy, Mechanical,

Electronics and so on.

And one of my closest friend

did his electronics in the the same batch,

but he did electronics, he now lives in

Netherlands and he is he is coming here on Saturday.

And he and I are hosting a breakfast

for some of my friends.

Yes, it is very interesting.

I remember quite quite a few of them.

And when we met for the 50th year over here

that time I met a lot of them

who I hadn't seen after 1964

and that was a great time.

You still recognize them and they recognize you? Difficult.

Some of them were difficult, but

but funnily enough some of them I recognize by their voice

rather than their figure.

Especially, the one Srinivas Nageshwar who

who was my table tennis partner

for doubles. And I I recognized him only by his voice.

Because he had lost all his hair and I could

not I could not recognize him at all, but I recognized his voice.

So, you know the campus has obviously,

changed a lot since your days. It has, it has.

What do you think you think, are you happy

with the way the campus is developed? Our campus is fantastic.

It is really competes with any world campuses.

Anywhere else.

I have been to quite a few in in England and in in the States,

been to Stanford, to MIT and so on so forth.

I think it can easily compete with any of those. Yeah.

It is very quiet serene campus. Right.

Nice atmosphere to study.

So, I I also do want to thank you for

your giving back to the institute.

I know you have made a few gifts in the in the past. Yeah, yeah.

So, what motivates your giving back

and is it something you plan to continue?

Well, I suppose I

I have a basic tendency to help people.

Also, probably because I don't have a family

myself, I can say everybody my family.

It's, it's I find a lot of pleasure in helping people if I can.

So, in particular your contribution and your batches

contribution during the golden jubilee

was helped this centre, the Heritage Centre.

So, what is your opinion about our Heritage Centre?

Is it something we should say- I think it was when it was

intimated to me that this is going to come up,

I thought what a fantastic idea.

It's, it's a brilliant idea.

And I hope all the best for it, the best wishes for it.

I hope it gets bigger and bigger.

So, of course, this year we are celebrating our diamond jubilee. Yeah.

Our institute itself is turning

Yeah. 60

So, looking forward based on your experiences,

what do you think the institute should aspire to be?

I mean are we are we on the right track

or do you would you like to see a

course correction in some ways.

Now, I do not think, I I can say I can give any corrections.

Because I am I am not an educationist

so, so I do not know the ins and outs of

running an institution.

But I only wish, of course, every institute wants to be the best. Right.

In in their country and if necessary a world class.

And I am I am still waiting for the day when

IITs come in the top 10

in the world rather than the top 100.

And I am sure it will happen.

It is a question of time. Sure.

And because there are enough brains in this country to

get that going.

And more of them are staying back with because-

Yes, I think it, I think it is happening now.

At one time there was a dearth of

good inventive jobs

in this country. Right.

But I would say that is not the case anymore

But it can it can still be improved quite a lot.

But I think one of the one of the main things for

people to stay would be the the lifestyle here.

I find simple things are very difficult to achieve

without lot of sweat,

and that that should change

and if that changes I think

lot of people would stay.

And people get frustrated here

because you can't get things done.

The things do not move fast, fast enough.

When you, especially people who come from abroad

and they have experienced things which are happening

just by a phone call or an email or something,

and here you have to go and stand in a queue,.

That's very frustrating.

I think if, that needs to change.

And once that goes I think job front is has changed quite a lot.

So, that is a big incentive.

But once the lifestyle also changes then I think

of course, you cannot do anything about the weather, but.

So, what did you used to do during vacations

when you were a student,

particularly the summer vacations? Summer vacations.

I used to go and visit relatives

because we- that is one thing that these days are different

people try and do some sort of internship or Right,

Yeah. Something to get some practical experience

which I think is fantastic and I should have done it.

I didn't, because we did not think about it that way.

You know when you have a holiday, you have a holiday.

But I think the holidays could be used at least

part of it could be used to to learn your work. Sure.

True, I agree.

I know that you also provided some financial support to

some students who wanted to visit CERN.

Do you do you like this idea of students doing Yes.

Internships not only in India, but also going abroad? Yeah, now

I think I I did contribute a little bit. Yeah.

To couple of students

No, I think it is a great idea.

I think people should should go out and look at

how things are done in

in different places to get an overall view of the world

because it is very easy to get cocooned in a Right.

in your own atmosphere

and not know how people live elsewhere. Right.

So, I think that is a great idea.

So, do you have plans to spend more time in Chennai

and more time on campus?

I I have plans to spend about 4 or 5 months in Chennai

every year because of family commitments.

And there are still the time I will probably be in London,

but I also do visit the States

where several of my relatives are there.

So, I travel a lot.

I travel quite a bit.

Are you in touch with the Civil Engineering Department here?

Have you offered to come?

Have they contacted you about coming in? I have not.

I have about 5 or 6 years ago I did, but after that I have not.

But I should. Yeah. Yes, I agree.

Because we always talk about the 3

piece of giving time, talent and treasure. Yeah, true, true.

Since, you have already given the treasure you know.

It would be great if you can also.

Give your time and talent and.

Yeah, you know I do I am I am quite happy to help whenever I can. Ok.

So, it has been great talking to you and- Yeah, it was great coming here.

Maybe if Professor Swamy has more questions you can Yeah,

yes. go ahead as well so.

Sure, sure.

I need to leave for another meeting. Sure, yeah.

Hope to see you again in the. Hope, yeah, I am sure I will.

Yeah. Yeah, I am sure.

To be I wanted to know about your

teachers in Civil Engineering anybody who remember.

Sorry, come again?

The faculty who taught you Civil Engineering.

Yes. You are the Civil Engineering student.

Yes. Could you remember any of them?

Yes, I remember all of them.

All of them, ok. All of them

Have you met any of them recently? I met them

About 4 or 5 years ago Who?

4 or 5 years ago I met Radha Krishnan

Radha Krishnan, I see Rajagopalan

Professor Varghese Professor Varghese is no more.

Yeah, I know he is no more Yeah, yeah you came for that function?

I came for the 50th year function I see

For the first batch 50th year Yeah, yeah, yeah, Yeah.

Yeah, that time I went to his house met him Yeah, he was

Yeah. Passed only a

Yeah. few months ago Yeah.

And Professor Radha Krishnan is in Adyar at-

Yeah, I need to get their addresses,

so that I can go and see them.

He is in might be the the telephone number is here.

Yeah, yeah, yeah contact number would be fine, Yeah. telephone number

Yeah. But I I know that approximately he is in that

behind that Padmanabha Nagar, you know that

road which goes to Elliot’s beach.

Next to that that Alcott Memorial School.

Yeah, Yeah. That route there is a colony just behind Padmanabha Nagar.

So, there he stays I am not able to get the name

That is, ok Professor E G Ramachandran was also living there.

Yeah. Metallurgy professor

I did not know Professor Ramachandran so

Professor E G Ramachandran is no more he is Yeah, he is no more as well

In fact, there was a function arrays

to establish a chair in his name yeah, yeah.

Last year That is, right, Yeah.

In fact, it is very surprising that just 1 month before

he passed away, he was interviewed here

by the Head of Department of Metallurgy

And he was he came in a wheel chair in the ICSR building.

Yes And perfect memory.

Yeah. Unfortunately, that day I could not come.

I wanted to meet him but

but everything, he had identified, the photographs identified . Yeah.

Everything his memory was tremendous. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Yeah.

Professor Varghese was of course ailing, but quite some time.

Yes, that is right, Yeah. And he was really want to-

Yeah, he was reasonably ok when I met him at his home

In fact, we even wanted to have

an interview in his house, he did not

He wasn't. wanted. You know his son is a

Yeah. Yeah. Dean here, Dean of Administration.

So, but he also said yes, he doesn't like to.

Maybe he written something about his

experiences here something.

But I am told the function that was held later in a memory

was a very big success. Yeah.

By the time you left Dr. Srinivas Rao had already joined, is it not?

P Srinivas Rao, he is also success man,

he came from-

No, I do not remember that name. Should not-

I think he joined 60 Maybe it was a next year.

He came from originally if IIT, Kharagpur

and German PhD doctor, engineer.

And he was almost right hand to Professor Varghese

I see. He took over the structural engineering lab.

The professor. The the youngest faculty member I remember was

Rajagopalan. Ah Rajagopalan.

He he joined IIT, when I was doing my final year

He was joined an associate lecturer That is right, Yeah.

Then he he took his PhD actually from Germany That is right, Yeah.

Yeah. Correct.

He Yeah.

In fact, about a year and a half back,

we had Professor Radha Krishnan, Professor Rajagopalan

and one of juniors maybe about 7-8 years juniors,

one Kalyanaraman who had become a professor here.

He took- His brother was 1 year or 2 year junior to you.

Yes, I forget his name he was metallurgy,

metallurgy or mechanical engineering.

So, he has a shop in in a shopping center here. I see.

So, at he did all the three had a, we had a group discussion.

In fact, I retired in 96.

So, I lost my wife in 2002, somehow about 2 years back,

I thought I came here and

thought why not do something here.

So, what I have taken up is to prepare a list of faculty

who have served this institute right from the inception.

Yes. Of course, the getting information was not so easy.

Not, not that easy. So, we have almost completed the job.

Oh, very good. So, maybe we will release it before.

Yeah. See, diamond jubilee years closes by 31st July

So, in fact,

I was connected with The Archives

cell in Indian Institute of Science where I did my PhD

so, that I had given some idea in that direction.

So, initially I thought Heritage Centre will do some archival work

but that is going to start a separate thing now.

I our, a German professor is there

and he is a he has collected lot of information of German side

with respect to IIT, Madras.

Sure. So, he wants to collect all the

documents available, scattered all over.

And try to bring some order and bring out some

and I told him we can then do archival research.

So, take up a- Yeah, Yeah. Small thing and then

Yeah. Development of particularly field of specialization.

Yeah. In any branch of engineering

Yeah, yeah. Which happened in IIT

Yeah, yeah. I remember the German professors, Professor Hahn

Yeah. Professor Koch

And my hydraulics professor

Professor Rouve is it Rouve

Professor Rouve Gerhard Rouve

Oh, yeah, Yeah. Gerhard Rouve

I remember him very well.

And, yeah, you would certainly remember Ebert.

Yes, Ebert, Yeah. Who was in workshop.

Workshop, so yeah

and only other there was one

yeah, you would not have the applied mechanical Professor Haug.

Professor Haug, he joined in 62 or 63 before you left. Yeah, Yeah.

Now, never we we I remember another German professor

who did machine drawing. Ah that is Scheer.

Scheer, Professor Scheer,

Dr. Scheer Yeah.

see Professor Rouve is no more

His grandson was here about month back.

Rouve’s grandson.

Really It is very nice.

He came and said my grandfather

was mentioning about it. So, he came.

That is very nice.

He came to the. Now, we know the he Yeah.

there was a towing tank built during his after you left,

but that was been closed down.

Now that the Ocean Engineering is a very big

Yeah Yeah. Is a tank and all that so,

we have generator and all that and of course,

you I think must have been knowing Abdul Kadhar

Yes Yeah, he left for Singapore,

after his doctorate after he never came back.

And yeah there are T P Ganesan . No.

You do not remember that. He was around the same time

maybe he became later after retirement he joined SRM college

and then he was a pro-chancellor

and a huge auditorium built there is in his name

T P Ganesan auditorium, SRM college in SRM.

And in the hostel, you remember any of your batch mates,

mischievous batch mates.

There used to one V Raghavan, you remember? V raghavan, yes.

Lean person, Chemical Engineering Yeah, Yeah.

In fact, he could not complete along with you he.

Went to the next year and he completed.

So, he was a very character by himself. Yes,

Yeah. And in your juniors there was one Rajamani.

Remember he went for the Republic Day parade selected.

No, I do not know. Same fellow, he was there in a Chemical Engineering.

That is second batch next Could be yeah.

I do not know much about the second batch.

What about Muthukrishnan?

No, I don't know.

The only one I know is because I met him later on

they call him Ghost.

Who? He is he is his name is

Narayanan Narayanan, yes.

Narayanan Narayanan,

Yeah. Oh, Narayanan, yeah, Yeah.

His nickname is Ghost

I do not know why, but- Yeah, that is second, second batch.

He is in second batch Yeah.

He is the only one I know

from the second batch No, he used to be in the first floor somewhere so.

And I was Assistant Warden. Where were you in that?

I I was on the first floor

I see. of Cauvery hostel, one of the wings

I forget their room number now

Yeah, yeah, yeah, but.

Because I went to Cauvery hostel,

but I could not recognize my room.

So, you could not locate your room So, I did not know where it was.

You did visit in- I went all around

I could not recognize them.

Now, because on the mess side there was some 3-

There are some changes there Yeah.

in the mess side.

And the some of the batch mates who are

settled in Madras, you have met? Yes.

Srinivasan Srinivasan, Mahadevan,

Mahadevan Neelakantan

Yeah, Amudachari Amudachari

Yeah, because this- Prabakaran

Ramkumar Yeah, yeah, yeah that is that is correct.

Are you anyway associated with a Campastimes? No.

You were not contributing, but you were reading?

When I was a student here

I wrote an article in in the journal.

Campastimes Campastimes.

I think was was it called Campastimes at that time?

Campastimes is a monthly newspaper isn't it is called- Right

Monthly or weekly. I do not think, it was at that time.

Annual number at one time It was an annual number at one time.

I see, I see And I wrote in one of them I wrote an article

You remember which annual number it was?

So, was it a your second, third, fourth year somewhere between 1962, 63

Something like that annual number 62 or 63; you have gone, it is the one is it

62 Oh, you wrote an

I wrote an article which basically was trying whimsically to

to imagine what it would be if light waves

travelled the same way as sound waves

Oh, I see.

Oh, this is- Because sound you can hear

any- from anywhere even with an obstruction in between.

Yes But you cannot see.

And I I wrote a a funny article

basically what happens if you can see through everything. Right.

and Yeah, it is here, The Chemistry of the Engineer. It is right?

Is it the one?

Chemistry of the Engineer.

That is not my initial.

It's not yours?

I don't think so.

Ok Thank you very much. Yeah, sure.

Thank you very much. Thank you very much.

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Prof. P.S. Rao in conversation with Mr. Najeeb Shariff

Hello everybody,

my name is Najeeb Shariff

and it's a great honour for me

to talk to Professor P.S. Rao

and many people know him,

he was retired faculty at IIT Madras,

he was the head of department of Civil Engineering,

he held a lot of administrative positions

in the institute and he was

instrumental in building the laboratories at IIT Madras;

the structural engineering laboratory was built by him

and he is the

founding members of the institute, if I can

put it that way.

He has served for almost 30 years in this institute

and held various

administrative positions.

So, today, we will have Professor P.S. Rao

talking about his journey,

about his life

and the whole story about it.

So, Professor P.S. Rao,

I would like to start

from your childhood days.

So, can you just tell us about

how it all began,

so, where did you do your schooling

and what went on,

how did you choose

civil engineering as your BTech degree?

Thank you Shariff for your

kind words of introduction.

I had my schooling in a very small town

called Tuni,

it is on the border between two districts

east Godavari and Vishakhapatnam

in Andhra Pradesh

and the type of education at that time was

slightly different from

what you have nowadays.

We had schooling for 11 years

and it ends with a

an examination called SSLC,

Secondary School Leaving Certificate.

And one is supposed to

complete that at the age of 16 or 17,

because one is supposed to start at

age of 5,

but I completed that

when I was thirteen and half years,

very very young age

in Tuni, standing first for the school.

Then, I went to the college

in a bigger town called Rajahmundry

in east Godavari district,

the Government Arts College

and at that time,

the state of Andhra Pradesh did not exist,

it was a composite Madras state

and for the entire Madras state,

there were only three or four government colleges,

one of them happened to be

Rajahmundry college,

the other one was at Kumbakonam

and it was quite difficult to get into that college also,

but because of the fact that I did well in the

SSLC examination,

I was the school first,

I could get into that college

or intermediate.

The pattern was

at that time: 11 years of schooling,

2 years of intermediate,

and then,

degree was for 2 years for BSc,

but for BE,

it was 4 years.

So, I went for a 2 year course,

intermediate course at

Government Arts College, Rajahmundry

which was the stepping stone

for further professional studies later.

Ok.

So, after Rajahmundry, then what happened?

Well, at that time also

just as it is these days,

everybody wanted to become either an engineer

or a doctor and I wanted to become an engineer

and unlike the situation

in the present day,

civil engineering was the most preferred batch

branch at that time.

Nowadays, suppose it's computer science,

but at that time,

civil engineering was the number one choice,

then mechanical engineering,

then electrical engineering

computer science didn't exist at all.

So, that was the most preferred batch by - a branch -

by all the students and

I decided to go for civil engineering

because I had also an aptitude

for construction activities.

My father, he was headmaster of a high school,

but he was very good at construction

out of interest.

So, maybe part of it rubbed down to me

and I took civil engineering.

Then, of course, comes the question

to which college should you go?

IIT Kharagpur was started in 1951,

I finished my intermediate in 1953

And many people did not know about IIT,

it was the only IIT at that time,

but then

the concept of IIT was not known to many of you.

There was Guindy Engineering college for example,

with about 78 years of history

by that time itself,

Roorkee, very well-known old institute,

Shibpur College of Engineering,

these are the three oldest engineering colleges in India.

IIT was very new.

But then,

people knew that it was an institute

started in collaboration with

international collaboration.

It was an institute

where professors from at least

8 or 9 countries

were participating through UNESCO.

So, I wanted to go to that particular institute,

and luckily got selected.

And when we, the first 3-4 batches,

when we got selected for IITs,

we didn't go through this JEE.

We were interviewed by

particular selection committee,

each state had its own interview board

and because of my good career,

intermediate, I stood university first

so, because of my good academic career,

I could just walk into IIT Kharagpur

in 1953, that is, 3rd batch.

So, civil engineering was an automatic choice for you

because that was the most preferred

Yeah. Engineering branch at that point of time.

Yeah, I mean exactly.

Coupled with the interest

my father created in me, although

he was not an engineer.

Ok.

But he used to take a lot of interest in engineering activities.

And you met Professor P. C. Varghese there?

Yes.

So, can you share something about that, your first- I will tell;

I will tell you a few words about my

stay at IIT Kharagpur.

As I already told, I belong to the 3rd batch,

first batch was selected in 1951

and it was a four-year course at that time.

Professor Varghese joined that institute

around 56-57, around 55-56.

But then,

he came already with a good record as a

very good practical engineer from Hirakud Dam;

prior to that he did his post-graduation studies

in Harvard University,

everybody knows about Harvard

and that too, under the father of

soil mechanics, Terzaghi. Terzaghi

He didn't teach us in the third year

or fourth year.

In the undergraduate courses,

I didn't have the benefit of his lectures,

but in between, he went to England,

took a postgraduate

degree from Imperial College, London

and by the time he return in 1957,

I entered my MTech

and I did my postgraduation under him.

Then - My post-graduate thesis under him.

So, after Kharagpur,

you went straight to Germany

or was, did you work

somewhere in between? Well, there was something that

happened in between also.

Immediately after I completed my BTech 1957,

I decided I would write the engineering

services examination

conducted in, by the UPSC

that selects people to IRSE,

Indian Railway Service of Engineers,

Central PWD,

then Military Union Service - there were about 4 or 5

central services together,

examination was conducted

so, I wanted to take a chance

and write that examination.

Then, 2 or 3 of my other classmates also joined me

and we formed a group,

the other person was Shankar Prasad,

he was also a ranking student in civil engineering,

then one Venkatramani.

The three of us decided to stay back in the hostels

after completing our BTech

and work

in a very concentrated fashion,

focused fashion for the examinations.

So, we prepared like that for three

three months together,

some sort of a combined study,

wrote the examination sometime in August,

the results came out the next year

and believe it or not,

the three of us were in the top 10,

I was the number 1,

my friend Shankar Prasad was number 3

and my friend Venkatramani was number 7.

So, that I would like to quote as an example

to the present generation

which is taking the coaching at various centres

and competitive examinations.

We didn't take any coaching

and it was the first attempt for all of us.

Many people here, they spread the myths

that you have to write 2 or 3 times before you succeed,

but we attended, attempted for the first time,

when got these ranks of 1st, 3rd, and 7th

without any coaching.

So, I would like to tell the present generation

depend on your own calibre

and build up your own method of studying

rather than believing in coaching.

Before - So, after that, there was a gap

because once they announce the results,

there will be some time

until you get the order.

Yeah.

So, I joined MTech

and then, did my MTech course,

finished my MTech,

then joined as a research scholar under

Professor Varghese in a CSAR scheme

which I got sanctioned at that time,

a sponsored project at that time.

Ok.

And then, after Kharagpur,

after you finished your Master's,

you then wanted to go to Germany

for doing your doctoral studies.

That's right. Although I stood first in that examination,

I didn't take up that career of -

I just wanted to test myself

and proved myself.

And then after having proved myself,

I followed my

my immediate passion of studying further

and I chose Germany because at that time

or even before that,

Germany is known for;

Germany is known for its high level of scientific

and technological development.

Particularly what they

produced before the Second World War,

during the Second World War,

after the Second World War,

so, I wanted to go to Germany.

So, I started learning German

even when I was in IIT Kharagpur

and when they called me for interview,

I could impress them with my German knowledge

even before I went to Germany.

Ok.

So, that was an additional point

in addition to my good academic record,

that was an additional point

which brought me the scholarship.

Ok.

It is a DAAD’s scholarship

German Academic Exchange Service.

I was there for 5 years in Germany.

And there you worked with Professor Rüsch.

Right.

And I mean I would like to bring to the attention of

all the audience that

the work done by Professor Rao

that time which was

on developing the constructive model for

concrete is being used by,

you know, several engineers across the world

and it has been incorporated by several codes,

talk us through that

and how do you feel when

you know it's been implemented in the codes

because that's the ultimate satisfaction for every researcher.

I will tell you how it started.

I went to Professor Rüsch after completing

my German language course

in a small German village,

but I should say couple of words about that

German language course also.

It's conducted in an institute called Goethe Institute

named after one of the

famous poets of Germany, Goethe

and deliberately, they are located in villages

where the population

doesn't speak any language except German.

And the German teachers in the institute also,

they know they are very good in English,

they are very good in French,

some foreign languages they are experts,

but they never utter even a single word of

English or French or anything,

they keep on telling you in German and German and German.

If you do not understand,

again he repeats the

instruction again in German only

with different words

such that you get that feeling

for the words.

Yes.

And when you go out

and buy something in the market or

something like that again you are forced to

Speak in German. speak German,

maybe initially, naturally broken German,

but then it gets better and better Yes

as you go by.

So, I had undergone a course,

a 2 months course at that time.

I went in October 1959

to Professor Rüsch,

told him that I would like to do a PhD,

he said forget about PhD,

I want to first of all know the candidate myself

before I decide whether he is fit for PhD or not.

So, join in a research group

which is conducting an ongoing research project,

show me your interest in capability,

then we will decide about it.

That's how I got into that group

which was already working

on the effect of sustained load

on concrete.

Ok.

So you, suddenly the concrete is tested

with a 2 minutes duration

in a laboratory either on a cube or a cylinder,

but suppose you keep that load constant

for a period of 5 minutes, 10 minutes,

1 hour or few hours,

1 or 2 days and so on

with time, the strength of the concrete decreases

and that has to be taken into account

in design of the structures

because all the structures are

permanently loaded.

Yes.

For a long period of time.

So, that was being investigated

in depth

and I joined that particular team

and it was a big team of about 4 or 5 engineers

working under him because

we had to take

so many parameters into account:

the strength of concrete,

the age at which the concrete is to be loaded,

the rate at which the concrete is to be loaded,

so many variation, variables

which are to be investigated.

So, there was a group

conducting experiments

and getting the results and there was a group

which is taking the results and evaluating the results

to develop a theory out of that,

and I belonged to the second group.

Ok.

So, the one group was conducting tests,

we took the results from them

and there was another senior colleague of mine

by name Grasser,

he also became a professor later.

And, myself and Professor Grasser

formed the team which evaluated

the results.

So, we found that

whereas the strength decreases with time,

but the deformations increase.

So, we had to combine

fall of strength

with the increase in deformation.

We tried so many stress-strain curves.

And finally arrived at

a particular stress-strain, stress block,

a parabola plus rectangle

which gave the minimum strength

taking all the parameters into account.

And that is how the German government has

German industry has adopted that as a standard,

then France has adopted that as a standard

and the entire Europe has adopted that as a standard,

England has adopted that as a standard

and we corporate from England

in one of our earlier course,

I think in 1978 code if I remember right.

And your PhD was

on developing the constructive model

or was it something different?

Well, I didn’t, I couldn’t submit my PhD on that

because it was a group

work of about 4 or 5 engineers

and that is the practice in

German Universities that yes,

somebody submits a thesis for PhD,

but they would like to encourage the group work,

at least 3 or 4 people work together

and maybe one of them takes one part of the experiment

and develops a thesis on that,

another person takes another part of the work

and develops a thesis on that.

So, I could not do that

because it was a big group already

and my Professor Rüsch

suggested to me after seeing the way

I interpreted the results of the other group,

he said why don’t you take up your own independent work

and my dissertation topic was

on the stiffness of

reinforced concrete members after cracking.

The tension stiffening effect.

Tension stiffening effect, yes

and that has again become a standard,

I am happy to know, to tell you also,

that it has become the standard method of calculating

the tension stiffening effect

according to the latest Euro norms;

Euro norms.

So, I feel very happy

to know that my work found

Place in several courses. use in, not only in Germany,

but in several countries

for practical design of structures.

Yes.

It formed the benchmark.

Then tell us about this story of the shells,

you were so fascinated about shells,

and you would design lot of shell structures,

roof structures in Germany,

so, how did all of that happen?

Yes, shells started,

reinforced concrete shells

started in Germany.

Professor Dischinger was the person

who built the initial shells

and Professor Rüsch under whom I worked

was a student of Professor Dischinger

and his thesis was on shells

when he graduated in 30s or 40s,

he worked in South America,

built large number of shells,

but gave up shells,

he became a researcher on basics of concrete

once he became a professor.

But shells for example,

were used in large measure

for factory of Volkswagen

in the northern part of Germany.

Yes.

Wolfsburg, I think is the name of the city

where Volkswagen had their factory.

Professor Rüsch built those shells, those north light shells.

Ok.

But then later on,

they lost in popularity

because as the time passed by

particularly after Second World War,

labour cost grew

much faster than the material cost.

Shells has advantage

that the material consumption is very very small,

but the labour involved

in making the necessary form work

is quite substantial

and with the change in the ratios of

cost of labour versus cost of material,

the shells have gone into background nowadays.

So, after spending five years in Germany,

you flew back to India and -

No, I didn’t fly back, I came by ship.

You came by ship, ok.

So, you sailed back to India.

There is- I would like to make this comment,

I went by air.

Yeah.

Came by ship.

I deliberately chose this ship

because I wanted to see Naples.

Ok.

There is a saying "see Naples and die".

Ok.

So, it is a very famous city in Italy.

Yeah.

In addition to that, I wanted to have the

experience of travelling by ship

which I didn’t have when I was going

so, I deliberately took ship to come back,

for 2 weeks it took from Naples to

India. to- to Mumbai, Mumbai.

So, after 5 years,

after spending 5 years in Germany,

you came back to India

and who was the first person you met?

I am sure you did not go to Rajahmundry;

you went somewhere else.

No, I did not go to Rajahmundry,

but before I tell you that experience,

let me tell you

what I did in addition to my

research work in Germany.

I told you already two important thing,

the stress concrete stress block one,

then the tension stiffening effect, second,

those were the main activities for me.

But in addition to being a researcher,

I had good exposure to industry.

The contact between the industry

and universities

in Germany is very very strong.

And they have a

system called Prüfingenieur

through which means in literally translated

checking engineer.

So, even if a God designs a structure,

another God should check the design

and that is how Professor Rüsch used to get

a lot of designs for checking.

And here because of my,

because of the confidence he had in me

along with Grasser of course,

he asked me also to help him in checking the designs

and I did lot of checking

work for Professor Rüsch

and through that,

came in contact with a number of firms

constructing buildings, bridges and so on

and very monumental structures were constructed,

one of them is a hanger for

Lufthansa.

Lufthansa

and also, for the NATO

military base at that time.

With a column free area imagine

150 metres by 60 metres,

150 metres, 60 metres

absolutely column free

so, that two Boeing jets can get into their hangar

simultaneously for repair.

And this was a steel structure.

That was a steel structure of course.

Yes, after that, when I went to, came to Mumbai,

the two people whom I met at the Mumbai

Mumbai port

because I came by ship,

were my brother,

who also graduated from IIT Kharagpur

2 years younger to me,

and my brother-in-law

who was in the railways at that time.

But they came only to see me

and take my luggage to Tuni

where my parents were.

I came straight to Madras.

After five years of stay in Germany

returning to India,

I first came to IIT Madras

from Bombay

to attend an interview

in civil engineering department.

I landed on the 4th of June

and the interview was on the 8th of June,

just made it in time,

the Professor Sengupto was the director,

Professor Varghese was the head of the department

and got selected as assistant professor

and joined in October in 1965

as an assistant professor.

So, when you joined here as a professor, assistant professor.

Yeah, assistant professor.

You, there was nothing,

I mean the there was no laboratory at that time.

Right.

You had to build it from the scratch because

the IIT itself was very new,

IIT Madras. Well, I don’t say I built it

but we built it Yes

along with our colleagues also.

So, how much of German

influence was there

in the sense, like your stay in Germany

and your association with the professors there

and how much of it came down here,

how much of it trickled down? Yes

there, there again I have to tell

a couple of stories.

The civil engineering department

was not included

in the Indo-German agreement

when they set up this institute of

IIT in the- IIT Madras.

But that reminds me

my connection with IIT Madras

started well before that

even when I was in IIT Kharagpur. Kharagpur

The German delegation

which came to India

to study the existing IITs

already by that time,

there was IIT Kharagpur, naturally,

then second IIT was Mumbai

the third was IIT Madras.

So, they wanted to study how IIT Kharagpur

and IIT Mumbai were working,

and that committee

came to IIT Kharagpur in 1950,

this institute was started in 59, 57.

Ok.

And I was a student at that time,

I was in my

Azad Hall of residence at IIT Kharagpur,

we invited the German team

for dinner on a Deepavali day

so, the German team which sanctioned this institute,

we entertained them in our hostel

at IIT Kharagpur

2 years prior to that

on a Deepavali day.

Yes, coming back to IIT Madras,

when civil engineering was not included,

Professor Varghese came down from IIT Kharagpur,

he knew how valuable the

foreign collaboration is

from his IIT Kharagpur days,

he somehow wanted to

get civil engineering also included

in the departments

which are to be supported by Germany

and it came very handy to him

that the leader of the German delegation

which was here in IIT Madras

looking after

the initial setting up of the institute

happened to be Professor Kraus,

who was a professor at IIT Kharagpur.

So, professor Varghese knew Professor Kraus

from his Kharagpur days

and then,

after he took over as the head of department in 62 or 63

around that time,

he approached Kraus,

convinced Professor Kraus

that civil engineering also should be included

and that is how he got

civil engineering included.

The reason why the Germans didn’t include

civil engineering in the initial list was

they felt that

India was good enough

in civil engineering even without foreign aid,

but then, that was correct,

we had wonderful irrigation structures

which were on par with

any structures anywhere in the world,

irrigation structures,

but urban infrastructure,

we were not on par with other countries.

So, I think Professor Varghese

must have made that point to Professor Kraus

and got civil engineering included.

And once we got civil engineering included

in 63, 64 around that time,

he started corresponding with me

in Germany

because he knew I worked with Professor Varghese,

went to Germany

so, he knew that I was in Germany,

and he said

why don’t you ask your Professor Rüsch

to help us

in setting up the laboratory.

Then, when I met Rüsch,

he was already 64 or 65,

he said, Rao I am quite old,

India is very far,

you know, go to Professor Kordina,

who was here in my laboratory

and who has now become a professor at Braunschweig,

and he will agree.

So, I and he I knew Professor Kordina

because he was originally in Munich,

he used to come very frequently,

then I wrote to Professor Kordina,

I talked to him and he readily agreed.

And then, as a junior of his Professor Eibl,

he was also earlier in Munich laboratory

so, those two formed a team,

Professor Kordina and Professor Eibl,

they came down here number of times,

helped us in

preparing the layout for the laboratory

obtaining equipments from the German companies,

all that was done by the German team.

In fact, the structural engineering laboratory

which we have today

is more or less a replica of the Munich laboratory

because I had training in Munich,

Professor Kordina was a student of Professor Rüsch

earlier, much earlier,

Professor Eibl also joined in Munich

and then, went to Professor Kordina.

so, all the three of us had that

Munich flavour with us

and we reproduced that here

with a few modifications to suit Indian conditions.

For example, the Munich laboratory

would be having three office blocks

on three sides of the laboratory

here, we have only on two sides. Two sides.

That is to permit ventilation

Yes.

which is not necessary in Germany.

Yes.

So, we made some alterations

to suit Indian conditions

and that's how the Germans came into picture.

First, Professor Varghese got the

department included in the list,

then I played my part

in identifying the experts.

Ok.

Who were the other faculty members

who helped you

in constructing this laboratory?

This, Professor Kordina and Professor Eibl

were primarily in Germany,

and they were coming only now and then and going back,

but we had two faculty from Germany

stationed at Madras

Professor Plähn from Hanover

and Dr. Cordes also from Hanover.

So, we had two Germans with us

for about

two and half years or three years

and they were the people who helped us

in constructing that

strong floor which is a unique feature of Yes

this laboratory

which makes it one of the best in the

country even today. Yes

The other Indian colleagues

some of them were already there

even before I joined,

most of them were there

even before I joined in 65.

Professor Victor and Professor T. P. Ganesan,

Professor R. Radhakrishnan,

Professor Rajagopalan,

Professor C. S. Krishnamurthy

all stalwarts in their own fields

of course, they became stalwarts later,

but at that time, they were a young faculty

and I had the benefit of their cooperation also.

So, while you were here,

what were the courses you had taught to our students?

I taught reinforced concrete

for two years;

3rd year and 4th year,

I taught prestressed concrete,

I taught design of shell structures.

Tomorrow in the

function, I will elaborate a little more

when I talk about my relationship with Professor Varghese,

I would like to share some material away from you.

So, I taught shell structures

and then,

I learnt from Professor Varghese also

the importance of conducting

courses for outside engineers

not only for students in the campus

that is how we come in contact with practice.

When you conduct a short course

say for about a week or 10 days or 15 days,

engineers from industry come to you

and they had to gain knowledge, no doubt,

but they also come to know that

yes, here is a man,

here is a person or a women

could be a lady also,

here is a person who knows

something more about

the subject to whom

I could go and consult

and that is how we built up our consultancy activity.

So, I conducted a large number of

courses, short courses

for practising engineers also.

That's how I came in contact with engineers from L and T

from Doordarshan

from so many other departments.

You mentioned about the consultancy activities

so, some of them are remarkable

and that we know.

So, for example, the TV tower,

the Doordarshan TV towers,

radio towers and the

tower at Rameshwaram which is

perhaps was, the tallest till for a long time

and there was one in Bhuj

which withstood the 2001 earthquake.

So, tell us about that story,

that journey about

how you got involved in Indian projects.

Before I talk about towers,

I would like to go in the chronological order

were the towers I started working in

end of 70s and beginning of 80s

but before that,

when the laboratory was inaugurated

in 1971,

it was the only laboratory in India

which had dynamic load testing facility

and the Indian Railways

wanted to switch over to

prestressed concrete railway sleepers

from wooden sleepers

because they have the advantage,

they are very heavy

so, when you go in curves

with the centrifugal force acting on it,

the heavy track permits you

to take the trains at higher speeds.

So, they decided to go for prestressed concrete sleepers,

but then, the design

again Germany was the leading country,

which was using prestressed concrete sleepers

in Europe

so, they wanted to

copy the design, German designs,

but the German companies were not

that much willing to

part with their designs unless

they are given the contract.

So, the Indian Railways started to

develop their own designs

and they, when they came to know that

our laboratory had the dynamic load -

in the railway track,

you keep getting their loads as dynamic loads.

Cyclic One after the other,

one wheel after the other.

They came to us

and said why don’t you collaborate with us

and that is how Professor Varghese

started the work and myself

and my other colleagues continued it later.

And it was a real big success,

the prestressed concrete sleepers

I don’t want to go into technical details

now because this is a general talk,

the design which we developed

and also the method of production

which we developed

has been adopted by

as many as 15-20 companies

in different parts of India

and now, the

sleepers are produced in millions

used in Indian Railways.

So, that was the very striking

consultancy work we did in early 70s.

Towards the end of 70s and early 80s, yes,

what you mentioned, the tall towers

was a focal point for my activity

where there were others who were doing

works on other for example,

Professor Victor was doing a lot of work on bridges.

Professor T. P. Ganesan

was an expert in experimental stress analysis,

Professor C. S. Krishnamurthy

was a top notch specialist in

finite elements

so and my group,

myself and Professor Rajagopalan,

Professor Aravindan, we were

concentrating on sleepers initially

and then, came to the design of tall towers.

And when the tall towers

were being built for the first time in India,

the tall tower we had

towers of the heights of 100 metres

or a 150 meters at the most as tall towers,

but when I finished my consultancy work,

we went up to 350 metre tall towers

which you mentioned in Bhuj

and Rameshwaram

and Barmer therefore, are the towers.

There was no Indian code,

there was not even an international code,

except beginnings were being made in America

and an organisation called

CICIND in Europe

is a consortium of countries

which came together to

draw standards

for design of tall chimneys,

but then, it was in beginning stage.

We had to build our own towers

with very scanty information.

So, we had to go through the

practises in different countries

and pick up the best

and we found that the Canadian code

amongst the existing codes at that time

was the best,

here a beautiful wind tunnel

it was Davenport in Canada

is the largest wind tunnel at that time.

Now, I do not know, in the world,

I went and visited that wind tunnel,

borrowed the ideas from Canadian code,

passed on that information

to practising engineers through short course

conducted by me

on design of tall tower structures.

And then, the people came to me

once I knew that they had some information,

they came to me for consultation

and the one big difference is

such tall towers

we have to consider structural dynamics

whereas, small buildings of 3 storeys, 4 storeys,

5 storeys of the order,

you don’t need to consider dynamics,

it is all static load,

but in a tall tower,

when wind blows on the tower,

then there is a very flexible tower,

it starts oscillating

and there is dynamic amplification

of the load coming under that.

And the Canadian code handled it very well

now, the present Indian code for example,

has taken good part of it

again from the Canadian code

but enriched by our own studies in work in our

laboratory also.

Professor Devadas Menon did his work on that,

some of his contributions are now incorporated in

the present chimney code.

And then, during your consultancy activities,

you also got in touch with

one of the greatest engineers

the country has ever produced, Dr. Ramakrishna,

who happens to be

just on the other side of the bank,

where you mentioned about Rajahmundry,

you were in Rajahmundry,

he was in Kovvur. Kovvur - kovvur

So, and it took so many years

for you to meet and then,

once the once you met there,

there was a great partnership,

you worked together with L and T

on various projects

and took the

Indian infrastructure to a different level.

Right. I was born in Rajahmundry

on the eastern bank of Godavari

and he was born in Kovvur

on the western bank of Godavari

and the two are connected by a bridge,

the old railway bridge,

but we met here only in - in -

in IIT Madras

and he joined L and T

already by that time; by that time

and I still remember when I joined here,

Ramakrishna was a fresh man in L and T,

Doctor C. N. Srinivasan and his own

design company, design organisation

C. R. and sons C. R. Narayan Rao and sons,

then and a few others also,

we decided that

the engineers of our age group

who were very very active

in obtaining knowledge

and also disseminating knowledge,

we should form a group of a

young engineer’s club

and we used to meet once in a month

in the residence of one of the members.

We were about ten or fifteen

engineers Ramakrishna was one, I was one,

Professor Purushottaman from

Engineering College, Guindy,

C. R. Narayan Rao sons, C. N. Srinivasan,

then 4 or 5 others

we were meeting,

discussing the codal formulations,

criticising the code

and thinking of possible alterations

we could suggest

for code making authorities at Indian Standards Institute,

it was a very lively group

for about 2 years,

but then, each one of us became

busier and busier,

then the meetings

became less frequent. Less frequent yeah. Not continued

So, we But we still remain good friends and, you know.

So, we spoke about your teaching activities here,

we spoke about your consultancy,

let us talk about the research

which you had done here and which

shape the codes in the country,

there was, you had several students,

you may number the number of

PhDs you had produced

and also the works which they had done.

Yes,

my first PhD student was Dr. B. V. Subrahmanyam,

a brilliant candidate,

he later on worked as a scientist in SERC.

Then, he became a consultant

consulting engineer by himself.

It was on the design of

statically indeterminate structures,

concrete structures using plastic hinge theory,

that was a contribution

which was adopted in some of the codes.

Then, the formulae for crack width calculations

was another point of investigation

which again

found application in some of the codes.

As I told you already the loadings

which are to be considered

for design of tall towers

based on a very rational

probabilistic consideration,

we determine the criteria for that

which again are finding

place in the chimney code.

So, like that there were many instances

where they had a direct impact on the industry.

The sleeper production

I had already explained to you

that the initial first sleepers were

cast in our laboratory

now, they are manufactured in millions

all over the country.

Now, we move to the other segment

which is the administrative

Oh yes. work which you had

done for this institute which

has helped institute the lot - in a big way.

There are several positions you had held,

if you can first tell about your

first position of responsibility you know

when it started, probably the head of the laboratory

or head of the department? Well, I was

the head of the laboratory,

Professor Plähn was,

Professor Varghese was a head of the laboratory,

but he left in

one year after inauguration

72 or 71 it was inaugurated.

Then, I was in Germany at that time,

I came back

and became the head of the laboratory.

For about 12 years, I was the head of the laboratory,

then we introduced the

system of rotation.

So, every professor became a head

once in 3; once in 3 years.

But after having been a head of the laboratory

from 72 onwards,

I became the head of the department in

77, end of 77,

then within one and half years of my becoming the

head of the department, Professor Indiresan

came over as the director

and he wanted to make me the dean

for consultancy

because I was already active in consultancy.

So, I was there only for one and half years

as the head of the department

and I became the dean for consultancy

for 2 years,

a job which I liked

because I liked consultancy

and I did a fairly good job

which was appreciated by my colleagues also.

But after 2 years,

Professor Indiresan had an idea

that he would like to retain some of the,

we were 5 deans,

3 deans he would like to retain,

the other 2 deans would retire,

then he would recruit fresh 2 deans

and again that sort of

partial replacement

would be followed

so that more number of people get

exposed to administration and then.

So, in that process after finished

my 2 years as a dean of consultancy,

he asked me to take over as a,

he asked me to continue,

one of the persons to continue

and he asked me to take over as the dean of

academic affairs

which deals with examinations,

succession of courses,

looking after dropouts,

re-examinations conducting,

grades, publishing grades, and things like that.

I told Professor Indiresan; sir,

that is not my cup of tea,

you gave me consultancy,

I liked that work,

and fortunately my colleagues also

appreciated it, I'm happy about it

but this I don’t think I will be able to do it

please leave me out.

Then, he ask me two questions

one after another,

what do you want to do

if you don’t want to become a dean?

Said, sir, I have got my consultancy,

I have got my research work,

I got my teaching, I like all of them

so, I will go back as a professor and

do all these works.

Then immediately shot a question at me,

do you mean to say, Professor Rao,

that I should select as deans

such people who do not have any work to do

and can you imagine

immediately there came the question,

can you imagine how much harm such people

can do to the system

if I select such people as deans?

I didn’t have answers

for those two questions.

So, I had to accept that dean of academic affairs

and that was

one of the bad - worst periods

for my stay as far as work is concerned,

I did fairly well,

but the amount of work

I had to undertake

was tremendous, those 2 years.

We had to close the - 4 year-

5 year programme - BTech program

and start the 4 year program.

And these students who were to pass out

simultaneously with fourth year -

4 year batch and with fifth year batch,

they came and told me sir,

we would like to go out after four and half years

so, I had to run a four and half year programme,

a four year programme,

a five year programme,

MTech was to be changed

from 2 years to one and half years.

We had to conduct the first GATE examination,

all came under my purview

as a dean of academic affairs

and then, introduced the credit system

in the college, in the institute,

until that time credit system was not known

it was brought by Professor Indiresan,

but I had to implement that.

So, there was so much of work to be done at that time,

but fortunately, I could withstand all that pressure

and convince

satisfy my other colleagues also

about the way things have to be done.

But you were also the

the warden for some of the hostels.

Oh, that was much earlier

that was before I became a

even a professor I think,

I was only assistant professor at that time,

it was 69 to 72,

at that time only I was the

faculty advisor to Campastimes

around that time 67, 68.

Dr. Ramachandran,

he wanted me to become the campus advisor,

the advisor faculty advisor for Campastimes.

I was warden of Narmada hostel

for 3 years, 69 to 72,

at the end of the time only I became a professor.

So,

after serving in this institute for 30 years

and then, finally, you had to say goodbye,

but before you had to say this farewell,

I want to ask you, how was the campus back then

and how do you think you know

because now, since you have come here,

what do you think has changed

and the department as well,

the campus and the department.

Well, the department has become

much much bigger,

I think we were only about

30 faculty members

or even less than that 25 to 30 faculty

now, I understand it is as much as 50 to 60,

the structural engineering laboratory,

the PhD scholar strength is

quite large now,

I think the department has

I got into Meher Prasad,

when I talked to him some time back,

had as many as 200 PhD students at a time

and all - the all sections put together,

was unimaginable and we were

on the faculty here.

I do not know about the

teacher-student contact nowadays,

but the teacher-student contact at that time

used to be very very close.

In fact, many of the MTech students,

we used to involve them in our

consultancy projects

I don’t know what they do right now,

maybe they are doing even now.

Then, the one big difference I find

from that time to this time is the

increase in the faculty strength

and the student strength.

I don’t know because of that,

the personal contacts have become less,

and it has become more mechanical

that is what I guess,

could be the difference now.

So, 20 years back you left this campus.

When when?

20 years back or 20 years back yes 20 years back yes

so, I'm right on that.

Exactly.

20 years back you left this campus

and after that what did you do?

Well to say so happened that

I retired officially in November 96

and an educational society

called Gayatri Vijayaparishat in Vishakhapatnam

wanted to start an engineering college

and they knew me,

they knew that I was retiring

and they started a college in December 96,

I retired here in November 96 was

continued for 2 months as

for extension here

to, for seeing the MTech student

through finishing their projects.

And when they came to know that I was retiring,

they invited me to

go to them as the principal

of the new college.

So, I became the principal of a new college,

I was the principal for 10 years

and I am glad to say that

it is ranked now as

one of the topmost engineering colleges in Andhra Pradesh,

you were a student of that college.

So, I met Professor P. S. Rao in 2005

for the first time when he gave a

talk for the Hindu Summit,

the technical summit and that was the first time

I heard him speak about civil engineering

and that was sufficient for me

to get into civil engineering.

Nice to hear that. I would also like to ask you this was

I mean I should have asked you this earlier,

but when you were a faculty here,

did you stay in the campus

and where did you stay,

which quarter did you stay

and how was the, how did you like the campus?

I this campus is one of the best in the world,

no doubt about it,

you can’t get any such campus

anywhere else in the world.

I stayed initially

for good part of the time,

I stayed in that area near the temple,

initially in those multi-storey blocks

C1 type I think,

they were being called C1 type,

I don’t know what they are called now

C1-16, I remember the number very well,

as an assistant professor I moved in there.

Then, when I became a warden,

I took, I stayed in the wardens quarters

for 3 years,

from there I came back to the

so called German quarters

that is the other side of the

C1 block was on the one side

and C block near the temple,

they were all being referred

at that time as German quarters

because the Germans participated

in the design of that building,

in the layout of the rooms

and they were meant for

at one time, there were as many as about

30 German faculty here

and all of them are staying there.

So, when once they left,

they naturally threw it

open for Indian faculty

and I stayed for 25 years in

one of those blocks, c blocks,

near temple third of road third of road yes.

There are some stories.

Professor Natarajan was my neighbour

was the next-door neighbour at that time.

There are some stories which

going to every IIT, I believe

that whenever the civil engineering students

see the water tank,

they say that there is no water in this tank

the reason being when it was designed,

they forgot to take the water load,

how much of it is true?

Go down I didn’t get it.

There are stories in almost every IIT.

That whenever. Every IIT.

Almost every IIT which I know

where they have these water tanks,

these huge water tanks and the

students claimed

there is no water in the tank

because it was not designed for that

they had when they designed,

they forgot to add the water load,

they designed it for the sulphate,

how much of it is true?

Oh, I don’t think it is true at all,

I don’t think it is true at all,

that must be a joke going around.

Why are you asking that question

that must be something.

No, this has been a joke since many years

and seniors pass it on to the juniors,

juniors pass it on to the next batch

and it goes on.

Well, it could have happened once or twice,

I wouldn’t be surprised,

it could have happened once or twice

in fact, that is what the job of this

Prüfingenieur is,

it is not that 2 into 3 is equal to 6,

did he get that 2 into 3 is a 6 or 5.9

that doesn’t matter much.

Whether all the loads have been taken into account

which are supposed to be coming on the structure,

you have to check the assumptions

due to basic assumptions,

the concepts,

whether the structural system has been

properly identified or not

that is more important

than checking 2 into 3 is equal to 6 not that.

So, that is the

For example, if somebody has

forgotten water load,

then the checking engineer would have noticed it

that the water load was not taken into account.

In fact, to my knowledge,

this concept of Prüfingenieur

I think so we are calling it as proof checking,

I personally believe

it came from the German word

prüfen means checking,

prüfeningenieur they are called checking engineers

and we will do proof checking for printing and all that,

that is not what is

meant by we don't do checking printing Proof printing

we do the correctness of the assumptions

and as I told you it was a

mandatory in Germany

that A has to check

even if B is a very great man, these calculations,

but it was not there in England,

it was not there in any other country,

it was not in India at least,

but once people like me,

Ramakrishna and a few others

who got trained in Germany,

Professor V. S. Raju

who came back,

introduced the system of checking,

it has become very common now.

A few anecdotes which you can recollect,

can you share something with us?

I want to narrate about another episode

which happened around the middle of 1987,

it also happened to be the middle of

the term of Professor L. S. Srinath

as the Director of IIT Madras.

Around that time,

Professor Srinath wanted to

appoint a deputy director

to help him,

for that purpose

he sent out a circular

to all the professors

requesting each one of them

to let him know

whether he would like to be considered

on the possibility of the director

and if not to recommend

the name of another suitable candidate

for the post.

I replied stating that I was not interested

but recommended the name of

a very respected

professor of electrical engineering

at that time,

other professors would have replied

in their own fashion.

After about 2 to 3 months

after this circular was issued,

I got a call from the director’s office

stating that the director wanted to see me.

When I met Professor Srinath,

he asked me: Professor Rao,

you replied that

you would not be interested

in the post of the deputy director,

but all your colleagues

want you to be the deputy director,

are you prepared to accept the offer

if it is made?

I replied to him stating that

I was very happy to know

that all my colleagues had

such a good opinion about me

and further added

that if the director feels

I could be of some help to him,

I will certainly will accept offer.

He smiled and said

he would consider that.

For another 2 to 3 months thereafter,

I heard nothing,

and, in the meantime,

I got an offer of fellowship from the

Alexander von Humboldt Foundation

for a second visit to Germany.

I left for the University of Karlsruhe

and after about 2 to 3 months

after I started working

in the University of Karlsruhe,

I got a letter from the director’s office

stating that somebody else

was selected for the post of the deputy director.

So, I may not have got the

post of the deputy director officially,

but I was very happy to note

that all my colleagues

had such good opinion of me

and recommended my name

to the deputy director.

I am repeat - I am narrating about this incident

because it's 30 years

since it happened

and at that time and until now,

nobody else except me,

my wife, and the then director knew about it.

The good impression my colleagues

must have had of me

must be due to the

experience they had with me

as dean for two terms under the

directorship of Professor Indiresan,

the predecessor of Professor L. S. Srinath.

There was something which

has a remarkable place in the history

in terms of engineering

which was you know

done by your colleagues or

your friends in Germany,

which is now not known to many people,

but you know the background.

No, I have some anecdotes

regarding my personal career here,

but they may not be of interest to anybody

as a historian,

they may not be of any interest to anybody.

Ok, thank you sir,

thank you for the time.

And I would like to conclude by saying

that you have been an inspiration

for several engineers,

you have taught thousands of students in IITs

and been an inspiration for several engineers

across the world,

thank you.

Thank you.

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Second batch alumni (1965) in discussion

MR. K. NARAYANAN: A good evening to everybody.

MR. K. NARAYANAN: Today is a red letter day for the '65 batch.

MR. K. NARAYANAN: Though, we belong to the second batch,

MR. K. NARAYANAN: we were the first batch to inaugurate this campus and the hostel.

MR. K. NARAYANAN: At that time, the Krishna hostel was named as Taramani

MR. K. NARAYANAN: and that is the one which we occupied, two per room.

MR. K. NARAYANAN: I had the distinguished honour of being

MR. K. NARAYANAN: neighbours with Dr. C. R. Muthukrishnan

MR. K. NARAYANAN: the gold medalist of our batch. PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: A3.

MR. K. NARAYANAN: He was in A3, I was in A4. PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: A3

MR. K. NARAYANAN: And, A4 is the room where I was named Ghost.

MR. K. NARAYANAN: And, since then, nobody remembers my original name is Narayanan.

MR. K. NARAYANAN: And, Pradeep Mallick called me about 10 days back,

MR. K. NARAYANAN: said, he is coming to Madras.

MR. K. NARAYANAN: Then, I talked to Mamata and Mr. Kumaran

MR. K. NARAYANAN: and then organized, “why not we have a get together of ‘65 batch?”

MR. K. NARAYANAN: In fact, I would have called another four or five people from Madras,

MR. K. NARAYANAN: but I understand, there is always a space limitation.

MR. K. NARAYANAN: So, I thought, we will have the restriction to

MR. K. NARAYANAN: two distinguished alumni, Pradeep Mallick and K. V. Rangaswami -

MR. K. NARAYANAN: winners of Distinguished Alumnus Award

MR. K. NARAYANAN: and two distinguished professors of IIT Madras -

MR. K. NARAYANAN: Dr. C. R. Muthukrishnan and Dr. O. Prabhakar.

MR. K. NARAYANAN: So, in between, I am a nobody,

MR. K. NARAYANAN: so, I just start this and then end with this

MR. K. NARAYANAN: and then, hand over to Mr. Rangaswami.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: Good evening, as Ghost said, sorry, as Narayanan said,

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: we were the first batch to enter into the campus.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: And, I was fascinated in 1960,

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: I remember it was August 16th

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: when we walked into this campus,

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: the beauty, sheer beauty of this campus,

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: and I am and still fascinated

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: by the way they have kept this campus as it was,

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: as as it used to be those days, green, nice, beautiful.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: I remember, those were the days when

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: the hostels are started,

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: the construction was going on in Cauvery was,

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: what you say Cauvery now -

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: It had a different configuration at that point of time,

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: the wings and Krishna.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: And Dr. Chaudhri, Professor Chaudhri, was the

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: eivil engineering professor, he was the warden of the hostel.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: And, director was Sengupto and we had a wonderful registrar,

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: Dr. R. Natarajan, who recently passed away,

we had a condolence meeting also here, IAS.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: We were lucky to have that kind of people there, at that point of time.

Because the improvement and the genesis of this institute is,

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: you know, what people we had at that point of time.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: Mr. Sengupto, for example, he had a big hand in the,

you know, design of the various buildings.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: And, he wanted to preserve the greenery of this campus,

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: so he told the people, architects,

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: who were, sort of in a competition to build,

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: to design the buildings, he said,

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: “I will only select those designs

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: which have least cutting of the trees.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: So, he said that, “no tree should be cut, that is one of my conditions.”

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: That is why this avenue used to be called Banyan Avenue,

even now, it is called Banyan Avenue.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: And, it is so beautiful, no?

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: They could have easily designed it in a different way

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: and cut all the trees and all that, but it was his insistence

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: that, no tree should be cut while planning this campus.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: So, that was his will.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: And everyone, naturally, he was number one director,

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: and people who designed, had to follow his dictum.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: That is why this campus is so...that,

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: you know, initial you know, what pace

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: and direction which he gave, is still probably active

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: and the whole campus has, you know, has been,

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: kept nice, kept green, kept beautiful.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: So, and still, I am fascinated whenever I come here,

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: and that is a number of times,

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: I come here on various works, assignments.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: And whenever, I know, as I remember about,

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: that is, about 50 years back,

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: and that feeling, you know, that,

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: whenever I come here, it invigorates me.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: And I suppose, others also will have the same kind of an experience.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: Even when we sit here and look at this greenery,

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: you know, it gives you a lot of happiness and peace of mind.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: So, there are so many things that we can talk about,

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: during those initial days, how the hostels were

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: and how we were transported.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: In fact, the colleges, the academic classes

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: had not started functioning from this campus at that point of time.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: We had our classes in AC College

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: and another, Guindy Research Station.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: And we used to be transported by lorries like sheep. PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: trucks.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: I remember still, and after some time,

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: of course, many of the students picked up their own cycles 93

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: and we were, you know, cycling from here to AC College

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: and other Guindy Research Station, for our classes.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: And it used to be one week

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: you know, we had a nice curriculum arrangement.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: One week, only theory and the next week used to be workshop -

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: practicals; that was the nice arrangement.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: We had 4 groups - A, B, C, D.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: So, when two batches had the theory classes,

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: the other two batches will have practicals.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: And the carpentry shop was,

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: again, in the Guindy Research Station

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: and welding, the fitting shop was in is AC College or CLRI is it? OTHERS: yes, yes.

OTHERS: No, AC. MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: AC College and

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: I think, CLRI was our admin block. MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: Admin block.

CLRI was Central Leather, MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: so, we had a different locations.

MR. K. NARAYANAN: Carpentry was in highways department. MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Highways institute.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: But what happened was, the administrators saw to it that

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: all these things were shifted into the campus within 6 months.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: And we started having the regular building,

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: first was the civil engineering block. MR. K. NARAYANAN: 105

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: 105, where our classes used to start

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: and...I mean, very quickly the campus was setup, I must say that.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: So, we were in that scenario,

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: where one side construction used to be held

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: and on the other side lot of activities used to be

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: had; I mean, we had classes at different points of time

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: and in between, the deer was crossing the road,

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: and that kind of a scenario, I still believe, it was very nice.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: And now, let me hear from Pradeep,

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: what his initial reactions were

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: that maybe, we can take up from there and as a discussion.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Yeah, to touch upon a couple of things that you have mentioned.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: One is, the leadership of

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Professor Sengupto was really amazing. OTHERS: Okay.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: He had a quiet leadership;

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: I do not think I heard him or saw him yelling at anyone.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: There was a certain firmness about him and a good leader.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: And, I think, you very rightly point it out

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: that there were certain things that he wanted,

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: which was, for the good of the institute

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: good, for good of the nation.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: And, the entire planning of how these A, B, C, D sections were made,

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: because of utilization of space.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: We were called tenants in AC College

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: or in the Highways Institute;

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: we all had to be bundled.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: The few of first memories of this place was,

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: the first memories were one of amazing enlightenment,

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: in the sense that, having been brought up in Madras myself

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: and having had a close, say, group of Madras

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: friends or some north Indians,

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: but here, we were exposed to a diverse India

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: that came into your hostels.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: So, 120 of us, I think there was,

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: kind of, I am not saying unwritten,

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: it may have been a written rule that they wanted. MR. K. NARAYANAN: 120, right Pradeep?

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: There were 120. MR. K. NARAYANAN: 120.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: They were drawn from all states of the country a country.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: I think, there was like quota,

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: I think they had probably done a quota system PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: some numbers.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: and I was lucky to get in over here.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: So, it was the first exposure to see

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: the diversity of India represented here.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: And, to meet up with lots of new faces,

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: lots of new friends and that excitement

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: in fact, became a bit of a distraction in my studies. This is one.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Second observation I have for myself,

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: looking back nostalgically, is the fact that

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: we all came with our own set of say, baggage,

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: with our own unique identity.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Whether it is our Muthu or Rangaswami or Narayanan or O.P.,

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: everyone had his own identity.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: I was a gold medalist in math in PUC.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: I was a boxing kid when I was 10 and 12 years old,

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: which I later put on weight, I could, I passed my age, my weight class

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: so, I could not box into that class.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Well, I was captain on my school cricket team,

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: I had done parallel bars, I had done swimming,

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: I had played hockey and cricket

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: and all that prior to coming here.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: I had been in NCC, in Loyola College I was in NCC

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: under a very famous under officer...now famous,

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: and so, we had very rigorous training and all that.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: But suddenly, you come to a place,

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: where you have suddenly grown,

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: you come from a little well into a larger ocean,

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: who are the first of their institutes.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: So, I may have been very good in

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: what I did in my little space,

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: but here I was exposed to a number of people,

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: who were excellent in theirs.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: There was Olia, who was excellent in gymnastics,

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: roman rings or parallel bars and weights.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: There was Aleem, who was a great sprinter.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: There was our Shetty, who was a great cricketer.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: So, I join the cricket team, but I was not captain, I was not as good.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: I used to play badminton before,

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: but there was Jaggi Anand, who was

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: star badminton player from Punjab.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: So, like that there were many firsts

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: and you suddenly found that you are no longer that first

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: that you thought you were, right?

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: So, you get a little bit of, shall I say,

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: lesson in humility that you are not cat’s whiskers.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Now, you there are more cat’s whiskers than you,

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: more super cats than you.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: That was of very good learning initially.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: The second, as I said, was this diversity

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: that caused certain distractions in my studies.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: So, the gold medalist in PUC math

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: was struggling to get through the first-year maths over here,

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: which was very very tough, right?

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: In other words, so a second lesson that I learnt was that, the

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: moment you...and then, it was like a boot camp over here.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: I mean, these sessions of being driven in a truck,

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: transported from our hostels to AC College

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: or to the Highways Institute, I found interesting, fine.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: One of our, talking about those truck rides,

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: one guy called Zachariah got hit by one of the tree trunks

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: because he was not watching.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Remember, he got knocked down?

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Another guy, when we used to cycle,

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: the deer those days, today they are all timid, they have become tame.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Those days, they were running wild,

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: and we were in their territory, do not forget.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: So, if we had a road on which we were cycling,

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: that might have been that track,

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: where the deer used to cross.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: So, when they saw this cyclist coming down,

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: I think it was Zachariah got hit by deer;

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: he got hit by a deer’s hoof.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: So, you know, these sort of things are memories,

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: but the boot camp business was very hectic classes,

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: such an overdose of lectures,

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: difficulty for me in understanding some of the

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: German accents of Professor Koch and others.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Hahn, it was tough.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Although, they made it simpler, in a way,

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: by using lots of, what you call these, props?

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: I think Dr. Koch particularly would use props to explain,

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: say, physics and so on.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: But anyway, there was a lot of overdose of that stuff.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: The workshops and carpentry

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: and the fitting shop became a kind of

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: get away from the heavy dose of lectures

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: because it gave a little respite

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: into doing something else.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Until there again, one found

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: that it was not easy to file on those

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: steel bars that we were given.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: And to make a cube,

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: I do not know whether you had to do that. OTHERS: We did.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: To make a cube to stand on an end

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: and that was a relief OTHERS: We also.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: and that was such a relief, when it finally happened,

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: because when I would file,

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: to me it looked very nice, but when that gap,

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: we could see light through it, every time!

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: And we used to take a week to reduce the thickness of that. MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: I know.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: So, you had blisters on your hand and all that weeping.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: So, the respite of workshops from classes,

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: I do not know if it was true respite, how was it, it was

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: also murderous.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: So, the second lesson was then,

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: when I once told my father,

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: he had this just knack of asking questions and he would say,

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: “so, how is it going, would do you enjoy the most?”

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: I said, “I like my fitting class the most in the carpentry.”

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: He said that “you know, you should have

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: joined a mechanics school rather than an engineering college."

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: That was his way of cutting me down to size and telling me,

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: “focus on what you have joined there for."

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: So, the second lesson for me, first was in humility,

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: that I am not cat’s whiskers -

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: there are many who are much better than I in various fields.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: The second was to focus on, you know,

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: what you have come here for,

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: don’t take your eye off the ball.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: That lesson took a little while, it took two years.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: When I had to finally choose my branch,

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: and I think, my professor those days called me

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: the “reluctant electrical engineer”

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: because I opted for mechanical and I did not get it, right.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: So, third, fourth, fifth year.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: but then, I had very good electrical engineering batchmates

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: there was Muthu, there was Ananthu,

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: there was Mani Chandy.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: And here again, there was an exercise in sizing you,

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: because they were all brilliant,

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: all of them, all three of them, brilliant guys.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: And one could, sort of, learn from the sheer tenacity

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: that they had - in how they applied themselves,

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: the hours they would put in.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Muthu did not put in too many hours of work, to my knowledge,

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: because he was a natural.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: He knew it all, somehow, I do not know,

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: like, you know, because when I used to

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: go to his room to study, to get my doubt,

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: There are always lot of people

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: but he found time. MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: waiting for his notebook.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: But he found time for everybody.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: He made time for everyone.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: That means, when did he study?

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: That is why, I say that he did not have to put in hours,

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: his tuition was through tutoring others

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: and that was an amazing thing.

So, that is the lesson, that was him.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: You know, what my friend classmate

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: Sunandan Sen, he used to tell me.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: He says, “I will start my, you know,

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: study after 12 o’clock at night.” I said, “why?”

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: “That is when Muthu’s notebook will be available to me.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: ” I said, “how will you get it?” He said,

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: “after finishing he put it outside the

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: door. MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: You know, the windowsill.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Yeah. MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: “I used to pick it up at 12 o’clock

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: and come to my room and study for 2-3 hours.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: Because I did not take any notes in the class."

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: So, that my only saviour is Muthu’s notes. MR. PRADEEP MALLICK Yeah.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: He used to tell me.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: So, he was the most brilliant, the best student we had.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: Of course, it reflected finally in his getting the

PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: Let me put it this way. MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: President’s

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: gold medal. PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: The best teacher we had.

OTHERS: Yes MR. K. NARAYANAN: Who?

PROF. O. PRABHAKAR MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Muthu. He was fantastic,

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: really MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: Continuing from what Pradeep was telling,

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: it was a mini-India.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: In the sense, people from all state,

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: it was a state quota. It was not like what you have today,

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: the basis of selection is an entrance exam.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: Those days, it was a state quota.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: So, from every state, you have several people.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: And it is...you know, for us,

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: it was a, in a way, cultural shock.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: In the sense, MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Yeah.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: One of my friends; Mr. Chandrashekar. MR. K. NARAYANAN: Professor Chaudhri made it a point,

MR. K. NARAYANAN: that your roommate should be from some other state. MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: Some other state.

MR. K. NARAYANAN: You must not have the same person from. OTHERS: Same state.

MR. K. NARAYANAN: the same state as a roommate. MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: Even

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: though, we were initially little irritated by that,

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: then later on we understood that it had its own merits.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: And Chandru, you know, Chandhan Chandrashekar,

he used to tell me later on, last year when we met for the reunion,

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: he said, “only after coming to IIT

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: and moving with the people here,

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: I recognized that there could be other languages

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: in which people can converse.”

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: Yeah. So, he was always conversing with these people in,

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: the friends in Tamil. Yeah.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: So, it was only here he says, "I realized that

there could be other languages for conversations."

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: So, that was, you know, a natural national integration like thing... MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: That is right.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: that was injected in us at a very very young age.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: So, our we had a broad mind

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: that was developed here during our initial days.

We had people from Bengal.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: In fact, my all my survey mates were from Bengal.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: So, I picked up a little bit of that language,

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: but Pradeep and all were, you know, born in Madras

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: and so he had a mastery over several languages,

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: it was natural to him.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: For me, having been, you know,

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: having been brought up in a rural,

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: semi-urban place like Trichy - Srirangam.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: Therefore, it was difficult for me to get used to

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: this kind of a cosmopolitan setup

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: and that took at least 6 months for me to

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: get adjusted to that cosmopolitan setup.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: I chose Sunandan Sen as my roommate.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: And that guy would start his morning

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: and end his day with Rabindra sangeet.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: And I would tell him, I said that

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: “Sunandan, this is too much for me.”

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Then, he would try and say things in Bengali;

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: one of his famous sayings was

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: “Ma Ma Brahmamai, raja koro ma, raja koro.”

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: So, what does that mean?

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: He is praying to Ma Ma Brahmamai,

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: “make me good, make me good.”

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: So I learnt those.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Then he would say,I would say “teach me a few words.”

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: He said, “forget it, Pradeep forget it.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: You will not learn Bengali. You are no use.”

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: I was posted in Calcutta, during my working life for 14 years;

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: I love their language.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: I think it was a bit of this.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Then, I went to England for 2 years.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: There again, I had to share a room with a Bengali mate,

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: and he again had Rabindra sangeet.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: So, that was such a...started getting transfused into me,

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: imbibed into me like osmosis and it was very wonderful.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: So, later, Ghost was our provider of all information,

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: he is our encyclopedia, right?

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: And so, I asked him, I said,

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: “I want Sunandan Sen’s address and telephone number,

I may go to Calcutta sometime.” He gave it to me,

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: but, it was 3 years later that I went to Calcutta.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: My wife and I met Sunandan Sen

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: and his wife for the first time.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: And he was surprised to hear me speak Bengali.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: He said, “wow, I thought you would never learn Bengali, but you learnt it.”

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: And it’s good we met him that time because 3 months later,

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: we could see his health was not good,

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: 3 months later he died.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: And for me, that was really a vindication of my desire to meet him

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: and to go and sit with the roommate I had in 1960.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: So... MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: He was your roommate, is it? MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Yeah, yeah.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: I did not know that. MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Yeah.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: 6 months I shared the room. MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: He worked with me for few years in LNT.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Yeah, that was after that

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: So, I came to know him more closely at that point of time.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: Then, he used to narrate a lot of funny things,

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: during his childhood, or even when we were here.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: You know he was one of triplets. MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: Triplets yeah.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: He was one of triplets, two sisters. MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: And his brother was

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: here, working in Chennai. In some Eswaran

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: and Sons MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Hackbridge, yes

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Eswar, Hackbridge MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: company

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Hewittic transformers. PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: Do you remember Sunandan?

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: So, he was an interesting chap. PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: Do you remember Sunandan Sen?

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: Yeah, PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: all Yeah.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: Like that we had a lot of interesting characters. MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: And I knew, and I knew Eshu

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: before, but I knew everybody.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: I knew Eshu before we joined because we knew the family.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: So, he was one year senior to us, as you know. MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: yeah yeah, true.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Carry on. PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: Pradeep, do you remember that industry tour

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: we went, to Bangalore and Mysore, electrical? MR. K. NARAYANAN: Electrical groups.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Yeah, did we go? PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: Yeah, you do not remember that.

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: I think it was for 12 days or so. MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Do you think I went along?

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: I doubt it, I doubt if I came along with you.

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: You did not come along uh? MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Maybe not.

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: Ananthu came along.

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: Gopi. That is also an interesting experience.

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: I think we stayed in a big hall in some hotel.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Ok. PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: It is a, it is a...

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMIl But, only in the final yearwe were allowed to some tour. PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: The setting is more or like a prison.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: Otherwise, there was nothing, tour and all was not encouraged. MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Which are the, which are the

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: industries you visited, you remember?

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: I remember a few Indian Telephone Industries, PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: Kirloskar and all.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Kirloskar. PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: Mysore lamps, Kirloskar

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: was quite hectic. MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Which year was that?

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: I do not know, ’62 - ‘63.

MR. K. NARAYANAN: Must be after third year, after branch.

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: And we had one course, which was called, I think,

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: machine elements or something, which was

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: packed over 15 days from the workshop area.

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: And Narayanan from IIT, Kharagpur,

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: young, more or less our age, he was a teacher in that course.

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: And, he used to show us...opened out machines

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: and explained the principle of operation, make a drawing.

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: That was a very interesting course.

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: I do not remember how they assessed us in that course,

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: but I got a decent grade.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Yeah, we were learnt very quickly here, while we were here that ,

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: there is always somebody better than you,

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: faster than you, louder than you. PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: Smarter than you.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Smarter than you and you know.

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: Loudest was I think Siddhartha, right? MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Yeah, that is right,

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: that is why I said. PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: What happened?

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: So, Siddhartha was very good.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Pai was amazing in his brilliance. MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: Siddhartha was G1?

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Yeah. G1. MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: G1, G2 and all that

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: we used to name people at that point of time. MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: G2 was T. K.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: G1 is Genius 1, that was P. Siddhartha

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: and G2 of course, is our Ramakrishnan Ramakrishnan T. K.

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: G2, because he got the second room in the ground floor, I think.

PROF. O. PRABHAKARl Genius 2. MR. K. NARAYANAN: No, no, actually

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: Two interpretations. MR. K. NARAYANAN: No, after

PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: He declared himself a genius. I was his roommate. PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHAN: Yeah, he declared.

MR. K. NARAYANAN: No G2, after G2 was named as G2,

MR. K. NARAYANAN: when we shifted from Taramani hostel to Cauvery.

MR. K. NARAYANAN: We see in Taramani hostel, all ground floor rooms - 22 rooms. MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: It was only ground floor,

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: yeah. MR. K. NARAYANAN: Whereas in Cauvery, only two wings in front of the mess was ready.

MR. K. NARAYANAN: So, ground floor, first floor and second floor. MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Correct.

MR. K. NARAYANAN: So, G 1, G 2, G 3; F 1, F 2, F 3 like that.

MR. K. NARAYANAN: You got G 2. You and your roommate, Vijay Narayana. PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: Vijay Narayana.

MR. K. NARAYANAN: You got G2.

MR. K. NARAYANAN: So, immediately they were shouting, "G2, G2, G2," like that.

MR. K. NARAYANAN: You just got in front of the mess.

MR. K. NARAYANAN: G2 was your roommate?

PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: I thought Siddhartha was Genius 1.

PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: Ramakrishnan declared himself to be a genius,

PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: so, G2. He told me, he is a genius, G2.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: Do you remember who was G3? PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: Myself?

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: Bhuvana Pillai Venkateshan was G3.

MR. K. NARAYANAN: I see. PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: You remember Cidambi Krishna?

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Yeah, very well. PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: Yeah Yeah.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMIl He did not complete that? PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: He did not complete.

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: He did not complete. MR. K. NARAYANAN: who?

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: Krishna. MR. K. NARAYANAN: Krishna.

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: Very interesting fellow. MR. K. NARAYANAN: 32/60.

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: He went to IIM finally, after doing a BSc or something. MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Yes, IIM,

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Ahmedabad. MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: I met him once in the flight;

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: neither of us could recognize each other.

MR. K. NARAYANAN: No, I recognized him.

MR. K. NARAYANAN: In fact, by mistake, I asked him, I said Krishna,

MR. K. NARAYANAN: you are not a member of alumni association.

MR. K. NARAYANAN: Why do not you become a member?”

MR. K. NARAYANAN: He said, “I did not pass out from IIT."

MR. K. NARAYANAN: Then, I said, “sorry, so sorry, I did not mean it.”

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: See, his name is also on my list of people.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: For example, talking about games and excellence,

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: I remember Pappan - G. Padmanabhan,

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: and this fellow Krishna, that we were talking about.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: They were excellent in basketball.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Krishna was, he became very close to me right in the beginning.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: He was a good friend right from the start.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: And he used to tell me, he was forced by his father

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: who was an advocate in Vijayawada,

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: that "you must go to IIT and study."

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: The guy came here, he failed the first year,

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: again he was sent back, he did not want to be here.

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: There is a small correction. MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: See, and...

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: He did not fail; he chose to fail. MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Yeah, definitely.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: So, and he. PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: I always felt it that way.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: But not once. Yeah,

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: I know Very brainy chap. Twice.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Then... PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: Only then, his father would let him do what he wanted. MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: That is right. That is right.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Then, his father said...he went to Osmania University,

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: brilliant person. Got into IIM, Ahmedabad.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: That was much later in ‘68 or ’69, IIM, Ahmedabad,

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: joined Madura Coats, Kissan and so on.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: I met him 10 days ago, we were in Bangalore.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Met him and his wife, Aruna. Brilliant career.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: He is a fine chap.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: So, you know, the question is,

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: how do you choose your Swadharma?

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Do you know your Swadharma? Do you not?

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: So, here I was struggling on various things.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: So, in IIT when I finally, said, "okay,

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: I have to focus on what I am good at,

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: forget there are people better than me and everything else;

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: let them be where they are I am not going to get into their turf,

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: let me be what I want to be.” Be that,

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: and then finally, you get what you deserve,

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: you deserve what you get, so.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: You remember one Mr. Sundaram? MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Nati.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: We were MR. K. NARAYANAN: No. MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: No, not Nati,

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: Natarajan Sundaram. there is another Sundaram. MR. K. NARAYANAN: Sundaram, who came from the first batch to second batch.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: He was our classmate in the first year. MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Sundaram?

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: Sundaram. He had belonged to the ‘59 batch.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: He was saying, he could not get through.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: So, he repeated the first year along with us,

then at that year also he lost, he did not get through.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: See, he used to have excellent marks in the physics. He had a, he had a weakness

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: for draw...he was very weak in drawing,

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: if I remember, but then, what happened was,

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: he was very brilliant in all other subjects.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Saha was excellent in drawing.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Saha was brilliant. MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: That is Sundaram.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: We used to say, he is ideally an IAS candidate.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: Then later on, he became IAS,

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: and he is served the state.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: So, just trying to... MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: That’s what, dharma part.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: See, you get into the wrong place... MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: That is why,

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: yeah... MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: ...it does not suit you.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: You have to choose. Right. MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: You have to choose your...

MR. K. NARAYANAN: See that is why, Fazal Mohammed, he left IIT,

MR. K. NARAYANAN: he became a doctor. So, totally different profession. MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Yeah Yeah.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Yeah, I think there were others, Italia also

and... MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: Yeah, he also did not.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: and Bawa himself. MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: Bawa was there for three years.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: All this, his Campastimes, is his creation.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: Even now, you know, he sends. I do not know who has given this... Yeah,

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Yeah, he emails. MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: My mail id,

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: you have must have given. MR. K. NARAYANAN: No, I gave.

MR. K. NARAYANAN: I used to receive from him, then forward it to IIT ‘65.

MR. K. NARAYANAN: Then, he was made a member of IIT ‘65,

MR. K. NARAYANAN: with permission from the alumni association. MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: I see.

MR. K. NARAYANAN: So, then he is sending to everybody on his own.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: But, he could only have limited copies until the time he was here.

MR. K. NARAYANAN: No, that is only one and half years say. MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Yeah.

MR. K. NARAYANAN: He, first yearM and second year for 6 months. MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Does it still continue,

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: this Campastimes? MR. K. NARAYANAN: No.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: No? MR. K. NARAYANAN: No, Campastimes

MR. K. NARAYANAN: continues MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: I do not know

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: whether it is there, you must tell us. MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: It is still there?

OTHERS: Yeah Prof... PROF. MAHESH PANCHAGNULA: The version of it, I think, there is

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: It is not. PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: But, it’s called The Fifth Estate or something right?

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: Doctor Klein was an editor, am I right? MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: What is it called?

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: Fifth Estate. MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: I see.

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: I interviewed for them once

PROF. MAHESH PANCHAGNULA: It went through many different versions.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Okay. PROF. MAHESH PANCHAGNULA: Yeah. When I was a student, it used to be called Focus.

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: Focus, right. MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: So, the name Campastimes, it was changed, is it?

OTHERS: Yeah. PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: We have a similarly one,

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: Mardi Gras was changed to Saarang.

PROF. MAHESH PANCHAGNULA: See, whenever... PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: That happened when I was in the admin.

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: Students were very unhappy about it initially. MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Is not there something

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: that you would like to PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: Mardi Gras is a foreign

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: word. MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: retain as a

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: Saarang is Indian, yeah. MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: would not you like...

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK ...that is why I am get...

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: but would not you like retain something which will become a legacy?

PROF. MAHESH PANCHAGNULA: So. Every 5. MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Because Every 5 years, every 10 years,

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: we change the name it'S... PROF. MAHESH PANCHAGNULA: See every

PROF. MAHESH PANCHAGNULA: 5 years, we have a new group of students

PROF. MAHESH PANCHAGNULA: who try to define their own legacy. MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Correct.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: That is the issue. Yeah, that is right.

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: Sometimes, legacy is more in the content. Yes.

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: And not in the label so.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Yeah. PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: It is okay, you can change the label, rebrand it, maybe.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Yeah. MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: And those days, the Annual Day,

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: you know, for the institute used to be,

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: you know, looked forward to, because of two things,

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: there will be a great lecture by Professor, I mean,

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: Dr. Natarajan, who, when he talks,

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: very, you know, very humorously about

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: and cricket and all that.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: People used to love his lectures

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: Registrar, right? MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: Yeah That was one

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: one important... PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: You know later on, R. Natarajan who was director.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: Second, was we used to stage our drama?

MR. K. NARAYANAN: Yeah. MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: And he was involved in... PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: Third thing is, we can see some girls.

PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: There were no girls here, on the campus.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: No, we had in the final year; there were two girls.

PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: I know, physics. Physics.. MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: In MSc Chemistry and Physics.

MR. K. NARAYANAN: Both chemistry, physics. Vijayalakshmi

MR. K. NARAYANAN: and Annapurni. PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: We all lived a very celibate...

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: Right. PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: Abstaining life. PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: Insulated.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: But those years, I think, it is our campus,

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: which, you can say, is the only one that had rivers

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: which were stationary and mountains

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: which were moving right? PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: Correct. MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: Yes

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: Yeah yeah true. PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: Buses were named

PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: Buses were named after the MR. K. NARAYANAN: Buses with mountains' names.

PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: mountains. MR. K. NARAYANAN: Hostels were named after rivers. Buses, the mountains, were moving.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: But those buses are still playing? PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: Yeah, yeah yeah.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: From Adyar to... PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: Now there are...Now, electric bus is there.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Yeah, but you still have the names? PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: No.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Of Kanchenjunga and stuff like that?

PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: Those names have been it’s not there, MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: Kanchenjunga

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: and things like that, you know. PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: it’s just Electric Bus, you know?

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: Say something about our faculty at that time

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: that comes to your mind. MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: What is it?

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: Faculty who taught us.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: So, the first two years is it was common PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: Professor Shankaran in Civil.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: for all of us. PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: Professor Shankaran, he used to tell us about testing bricks.

PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: Yeah. PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: He literally brought a brick to the class,

PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: Yeah. PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: and dropped it from different heights.

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: At one height it broke. He said, “that is the test.”

PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: Professor Shankaran? This is sand and he will put sand.

PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: Quite a person, he is. PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: Very interesting guy he is.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: There we had, interesting faculty those days.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: We had a battery of German professors.

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: That’s right. MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: Dr. Hahn was

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: taught us mathematics. MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: But in civil engineering, we didn’t have.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: Dr. Koch taught us physics.

MR. K. NARAYANAN: Civil civil we didn’t have. PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: CiviL...Rouve.

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: Rouve was Civil. MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: Rouve was hydraulics,

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: I think, if I am not mistaken.

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: Not civil? MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: Or machine design, I do not know.

PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: Hydraulics. MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: Dr. Scheer PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: Anyway, I remember,

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: Mrs. Rouve was the most charming person. MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Yeah, true.

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: And all of us is to crowd around her.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: As we did to Mrs. Scheer.

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: Okay Scheer, yeah. MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: I thought it was Mr. Scheer.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: Dr. Scheer. MR. K. NARAYANAN: Turbomachinery.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: Dr. Scheer, used to be...for drawing,

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: machine drawing, and all that.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: When we talk about Scheer,

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: what comes immediately to my memory is,

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: he used to draw something.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: Then if it is not all right, he used to immediately rub it off

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: with his saliva. It was very, very funny for us, those days. saliva

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: But I recall watching Saha,

\MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: the drawing class, he was very good.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: It all came naturally to him.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: After those three years they had all left.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: For us, we had difficulty in following their pronunciation.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: So, that is where, you know, he was saying,

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: that Dr. Ramasastry and all that people

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: they used to be on the sidelines. MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Yeah, yeah.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: and clarify to us. When they pronounce

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: when we cannot follow their pronunciation.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: You know, “thought” no? He says, “sought”

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: it was something like that, you know, that kind of a...

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: Electrical engineering, we used to have an interesting

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: R.B.Y. - where they’re three phases in electrical supply called R, B, and Y.

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: You forget what R, B, Y stands for,

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: we used to interpret it as, R. Natarajan, B. Sengupto,

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: Y. Ramaswamy. MR. K. NARAYANAN: Y. Ramaswamy

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: Natarajan was the registrar,

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: Sengupto was the director,

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: Ramaswamy is the estate engineer. MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: Engineer, yeah.

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: Executive engineer or estate engineer.

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: So, R. B. Y. means, these three guys

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: who created the campus in that time, yeah.

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: Interesting days. MR. K. NARAYANAN: Our German professor Dr. Klein,

MR. K. NARAYANAN: he was very proficient in Sanskrit, PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: Yeah.

MR. K. NARAYANAN: Tamil, So, he used to say, “I like Tamil, PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: English.

MR. K. NARAYANAN: but do you know the difference,

MR. K. NARAYANAN: you cannot “when you write,” he would say, “Anandha Vikatan,

MR. K. NARAYANAN: the ‘ka’ and ‘da,’ how do you differentiate?

MR. K. NARAYANAN: Only people from Tamil Nadu know it.

MR. K. NARAYANAN: As a German, I had to learn it.

MR. K. NARAYANAN: Like that, he used to explain minute things.

PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: You came first in German language, right?

MR. K. NARAYANAN: I used get good marks.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: You know, talking about Dr. Klein,

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: one interesting thing I must tell you. One day,

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: after six-seven several months, what, you know,

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: in the second year only we were introduced to German.

So, 6 months had passed, he was taking classes.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: Then, one day, you know he,

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: asked somebody to stand up and said, “tell me the alphabets.”

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: That gentleman was telling A, B, C, D.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: So, he pulled out a revolver from his this thing and started...

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: He said, “after 6 months, you are telling A, B, C, D, I must shoot you.”

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: Norman Klein, uh?

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: He had an excellent communication skill;

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: he was very good in English and German.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: And, he had an excellent personality, more than anything. MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: That is right.

PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: I just had one...our batch was a little energetic and boisterous,

PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: and I joined here as a faculty in 1968 itself - March.

PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: And most of the faculty,

PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: they simply loved the second batch. They loved it.

PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: They loved, because they had something more,

PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: they had a little more extra energy,

PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: a little more mischievous, right?

PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: And I got the maximum affection from the faculty.

PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: I am a very poor representative

PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: because I was a very quiet person in this class,

PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: but they were all very kind to me.

PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: Professor Swaminathan used to yell at me in Open Air

PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: Theatre, telling, “inga vada!” (come here!) MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: Yaaru? (Who?)

MR. K. NARAYANAN: Professor Swaminathan, physics? PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: Swaminathan, physics.

MR. K. NARAYANAN: Physics. PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: Professor Aravamudhan, used to be extraordinarily kind.

PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: I was the recipient of all their affection

PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: because of all of you guys, which sometimes,

PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: I used to feel, I truly do not deserve

PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: it. Because, I am not, truly, a representative of the ‘65 batch. MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: Swaminathan, is he alive?

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: O. P. Swaminathan is alive? PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: Dead.

PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: Third day after he retired, he died.

PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: He went, and you know how he is, he went to a hotel,

PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: ate some stuff and I think, I think, got some gastroenteritis,

PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: and passed away. He was very close to me.

PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: We used to roam around in Bangalore and... PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: Swaminathan once came to the hostel

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: around 11 o’clock MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: He used to suddenly have beard.

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: and leaked the question paper.

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: You remember that, Pradeep?

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: Swaminathan came to Cauvery hostel about 11:00 in the night;

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: leaked the question paper for the next day exam.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: Leaked the? MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Leaked it.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: Leaked, is it? I see.

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: Some questions, not all.

PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: I think, one thing I enjoyed...

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: I remember when some of... PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: I certainly enjoyed I used to be treated very well

PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: by the faculty. They were all very nice to me.

PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: For some reason, they liked our batch more than even the first batch.

MR. K. NARAYANAN: No, that is because... PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: Everybody

PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: knew the second batch. MR. K. NARAYANAN: The first

MR. K. NARAYANAN: batch was split between Saidapet, Guindy and even

PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: Yeah. MR. K. NARAYANAN: classes, you know, they did not have the same... PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: That is not the reason.

PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: The reason was our batch was a little more. PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: Just enjoy it

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: and don’t over analyze it.

PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: This this batch had a little more fizz.

PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: So, they were all attracted by these facts.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: Do you remember Dr. Ceasar? PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: It was not pure merit

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: Dr. C. V. Seshadri. PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: like a written exam;

PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: they also had person interviews to be selected.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: Both sides, both hands, you know.

PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: Yeah. MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: Dr. Seshadri, C. V. Seshadri. MR. K. NARAYANAN: First day, he came to my class

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: He can write in both hands.

MR. K. NARAYANAN: with the right hand he wrote his name,

MR. K. NARAYANAN: He said, “this is my name, that is my subject, and that is my room.

MR. K. NARAYANAN: It is always open, anytime you can enter.”

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: He is the grandson of Dr. C. P. Ramaswami Iyer.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: And you know, he will stand in the blackboard

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: those days it was only blackboard

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: in the middle of the blackboard

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: and start writing from one side with a left hand

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: and come to the centre, he used to change the chalk

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: to the right hand and complete the sentence.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: It was amazing, I had never seen anybody doing that.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: But it makes so much sense, doesn’t it? OTHERS: Yeah

MR. K. NARAYANAN: Very good hockey player?

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Yeah, he drowned, is not it?

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: We had quite a few young teachers also. Gangadharan,

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: Gangadharan, applied mechanics. MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: Gangadharan, applied mechanics.

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: Yeah. MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: Applied mechanics.

PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: He was very good.

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: Veluswami. Veluswami wasn’t that young, but yeah...

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: Gangadharan’s… Theory of machines.

MR. K. NARAYANAN: Theory of machines.

PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: Gangadharan used to be a very compact teacher.

PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: I think, he was one of our best teachers. MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: He had a nice,

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: systematic way, he used to write on the board,

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: write in a beautiful handwriting PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: I still remember his

Maclaurin’s theorem, MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: and for you know, he was…

PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: Taylor’s expansion. So, beautifully taught.

PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: I learnt it better in his class. MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: You remembered Dr. Reddy?

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: Applied mechanics. MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: Who taught us applied mechanics?

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: I met him a few years back in Miami.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: So, I knew that he was in Miami.

So, I went to his house.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: So, of course, he gave me a dinner and all that.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: And, I remember how he used to teach

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: applied mechanics in room number 105,

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: and you people used to love his classes, those days.

PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: More for the jokes also.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: And he had wonderful English also, diction - was fantastic!

MR. K. NARAYANAN: Our first year chemistry,

MR. K. NARAYANAN: was taken by Professor Aravamudhan, inorganic chemistry;

MR. K. NARAYANAN: Professor Dr. Rajappa, organic chemistry;

MR. K. NARAYANAN: and Dr. Srinivasan, physical chemistry.

MR. K. NARAYANAN: I joined late; I did not get admission in the first attempt.

MR. K. NARAYANAN: So, I joined about September 13th,

MR. K. NARAYANAN: That is why I was ragged by my own classmates and then named Ghost.

MR. K. NARAYANAN: So, Professor Dr. Rajappa asked me,

MR. K. NARAYANAN: “are you familiar with the organic chemistry”

MR. K. NARAYANAN: I did not know, but mandatory, I said “yes.”

MR. K. NARAYANAN: Then, he wrote some formula on the board,

MR. K. NARAYANAN: one big carbohydrate formula.

MR. K. NARAYANAN: He said “read it...

MR. K. NARAYANAN: I started reading, “C minus C equal to, C is identically equal to.”

MR. K. NARAYANAN: Then he said, “I know how much organic chemistry you know.

MR. K. NARAYANAN: Please meet me at the end of the class.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: But we had excellent faculty also.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: Some of the people he mentioned,

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: they were all such great professors.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: Dr. Rajappa for example,

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: who took our organic chemistry he was… PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: He went to SEBA, I think.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: …authority of the subject. PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: He moved to industry also

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: after, SEBA research.

MR. K. NARAYANAN: Dr. Ramani, Professor Ramani, who used to take mechanical engineering,

MR. K. NARAYANAN: people will you give our grades.

MR. K. NARAYANAN: “Grades will be given in due time.”

MR. K. NARAYANAN: When if there is a…

MR. K. NARAYANAN: people will ask, “when are you going to give in due time?

MR. K. NARAYANAN: What do you mean by due time?” Not undue time,”

MR. K. NARAYANAN: that is how they used to answer. MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Our electrical

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: engineering Head of the Department that time was…

MR. K. NARAYANAN: Venkata Rao. PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: Venkata Rao.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: Yeah. He was passed in electrical engineering. MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: So, what happened to him? Did he continue

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: throughout, or he retired over here? PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: He continued for quite some time.

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: He had a DSc from Andhra University.

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: I think it is post PhD, I am not sure.

MR. K. NARAYANAN: Sampath? PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: He did not retire here.

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: Venkata Rao. MR. K. NARAYANAN: Venkata Rao.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: He did not retire here? He did not retire here?

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: He retired. His son-in-law was Dean of IC&SR.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Okay. PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: Professor of physics,

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: how can I forget the name? Who?

PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: Rama Rao. PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: Rama Rao, correct.

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: Rama Rao, who was later professor of physics and dean of ICSR,

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: he was son-in-law of Venkata Rao.

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: And I had an interesting experience, you know?

PROF. C. S. SWAMY: Natarajan’s…was your class right?

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: Yeah, Prabhakaran O. Prabhakaran. MR. K. NARAYANAN: R. Prabhakaran.

PROF. O. PRABHAKARl R. Prabhakaran. PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: R. Prabhakaran.

PROF. C. S. SWAMY: Where is he?

PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: Prabhakaran. PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: He is in the U.S.

MR. K. NARAYANAN: He is the owner of… PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: Some university. He was...

PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: 1.067 by 60. MR. K. NARAYANAN: 67

PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: He was physics lab partner.

MR. K. NARAYANAN: In that, O. P. - 66, Prabhakaran - 67,

MR. K. NARAYANAN: then our Gurunani, then Mallick is 69.

PROF. MAHESH PANCHAGNULA: Oh, I see. PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: He is now an emeritus professor

PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: at Old Dominion University near Norfolk. PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: Who?

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: R. Prabhakaran? PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: He...

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: Mechanical right?

PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: Machine design. I think, PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: He studied mechanical engineering.

PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: he does… MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Where is R. Natarajan though?

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: Bangalore.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Retired? PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: Settled down in Bangalore.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: See, everyone must have retired… OTHERS: Yes

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: If we are retired, then they… MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: We are old. We all must have retired.

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: No, retired from job, but otherwise active.

PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: He just wants to make sure that they have retired.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: No, because professors can go on. MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: No. you are right.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: In a way, those who are working in America

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: and all that, there is no retirement.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: I know. MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: Some of them could be working still.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Exactly. PROF. O. PRABHAKARl Particularly academics.

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: No, but some opt for retirement,

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: Mani Chandy has opted and retired. MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Yes.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: Last time I saw him. PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: I met him last year.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: Yeah. He was the It was his birthday

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: recipient of D.A.A. of last year. MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: It

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: It was his birthday yesterday.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: Mani Chandy? MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Yesterday was his birthday.

PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: When he was the deputy director,

PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: we had chosen his name. I wrote to him

PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: for Distinguished Alumnus, but he did not reply. PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: Yeah.

PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: So, we had to choose another name.

PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: But that time... MR. K. NARAYANAN: Who, Mani Chandy?

PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: Yes, yes.

PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: You; then he said you write,

PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: he was the… I was the president of the alumnus association.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: But he has not;

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: I did not see any change in him. MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Yeah.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: I could recognize him very easily.

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: Who Mani? He is fine last year.

MR. K. NARAYANAN: Mani Chandy, today is his birthday. PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: Mani Chandy. MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Yesterday.

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: But, you know, I notice some of our…

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: not only my classmates, but later my students also,

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: we’ve done exceedingly well in the US.

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: Academic, I mean, mainly academic I am referring to here.

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: They did hit the glass ceiling. PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: They didn’t?

MR. K. NARAYANAN: His father was… PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: Glass ceiling, you know.

PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: They did not hit, they hit? PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: So, there is always

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: some group dynamics and politics.

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: They should have been recognized much more,

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: I noticed that. Industry, they may not move them up

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: to a very powerful position, but they are compensated

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: otherwise quite well, which is not the case in academic.

PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: But Subra? PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: In fact, one of my students,

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: Jai Dev Mishra, he is a coworker of Chandy.

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: Some of his work deserves to be awarded a

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: very prestigious prize, but he got bypassed three times, four times.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Chandy did a very well. PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: Chandy also has done well.

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: But Chandy… MR. K. NARAYANAN: Mani Chandy’s father,

MR. K. NARAYANAN: he was a IIT Board of Governor’s Chairman. MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Yes.

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: Yeah, I know. MR. K. NARAYANAN: For three years. PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: His father,

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: K. T. Chand R. PRADEEP MALLICK:y. Director of Hindustan Unilever.

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: K. T. Chandy, yeah. R. PRADEEP MALLICK: He was the director of…

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: I later had a connection with K. T. Chandy.

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: Because he put me on the board of Federal Bank.

MR. K. NARAYANAN: Innum vera edhadhu topic pesunuma? (Is there anything else we need to talk about?)

PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: We just about covered everything, yeah.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: During our time we had one inter IIT meet

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: here in Chennai, remember that?

MR. K. NARAYANAN: That was ’64, when we were about to finish. Yeah.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: So, there were not enough hostel rooms

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: to accommodate all those people.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: So, we were asked to move to, you know,

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: we are all occupying a single room,

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: we were asked to move to some other room,

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: and we vacated those rooms for the other friends from other IITs.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: So, rather, that was a nice period of about 10 days, inter IIT meet.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: Pataudi, who was Indian cricket captain,

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: he inaugurated that inter IIT meet here,

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: that was a lovely period.

MR. K. NARAYANAN: Trouble is, that was a time when we had a final year final exam.

MR. K. NARAYANAN: So, we could neither spend the time there

MR. K. NARAYANAN: nor in studying. PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: You’ve seen the

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: Chemplast Cricket Ground in IIT? MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Yeah. MR. K. NARAYANAN: Yeah.

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: It’s a… MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: But initially, first few years, we never had all those facilities.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: We never had a tennis court till about, till third year.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: We never had any games facilities.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: That was, I would say, you know,

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: I would say, a negative point for such a period.

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: In fact, the first year. Our first year,

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: we used to come back in the evening

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: to the campus after the workshop or classes whatever,

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: we had practically nothing to do here, nothing to do. MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: But,

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: you know, in quick time and came and. MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: I remember Lionel Paul in…playing

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: that tennis, you know. MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: Even in a third-year or fourth-year,

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: so many things had come.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: So, I must, say, give credit to the director

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: and registrar who MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Absolutely.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: brought in so many things because it is a barren land of 600 acres.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: In 19.... MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: To get things organized was very difficult.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Was it was 1961, December? PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: To give you an idea, we were...

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: I went to Bombay for the inter-IIT. PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: our warden

PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: gave us instructions for first aid for snake bite.

PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: Professor Chaudhri demoed it to us,

PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: what to do in case there is a snake bite.

PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: That will give an idea of what kind of situation we were living in.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: I think, I represented the institute twice for inter-IIT.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: I chose not to go, because as I said no, I had to focus on my studies.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: So, I went to Bombay in ’61, December,

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: then I skipped Kharagpur,

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: I think, in the Madras one I participated.

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: I think you guys may not know,

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: we used to have movies shown in an electrical bay workshop.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Yeah yeah, correct.

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: With a 16 mm projector. O.A.T was not there.

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: I think it came… MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: Open Air Theater was not there.

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: Yeah, much later, just about the time we were to leave.

PROF. O. PRABHAKARl Building Sciences Block? PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: So, I remember movie, Norman Wisdom.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Yeah. PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: Stitch in Time,

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: or something like that. MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Yeah.

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: And every time that lamp used to fail, that carbon lamp.

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: I think they screened it some 6-7 times, you know, diehards.

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: And so, I do not remember who, Siddartha,

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: I do not remember who it is.

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: So, we changed the titles from 'Stitch in Time

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: Saves Nine' to 'Nine Times No Movie.'

MR. K. NARAYANAN: Yes, it was Kapur who took the stuff for film club. MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Yeah.

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: Pritam Lal uh? MR. K. NARAYANAN: Pritam Lal Kapur.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Yeah, we had lunch with Kapur last Sunday. PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: Fat guy.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: Pritam Kapur. MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: We had lunch with Kapur last Sunday.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: He is where, in Delhi?

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: He is in Delhi,

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: but he was visiting Bombay, his daughter lives there, so.

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: But the current,

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: I mean, I do not know really the current, but say, about

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: late 90s-early 2000s, the teaching

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: and so on is changed quite a bit in IIT.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: Methods. PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: Not the method, but the overall ambience and so on.

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: When we were students,

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: there used to be tutorial, very regularly tutorials.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: Tutorial yeah, right.

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: And every week there will be a home assignment.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: Yeah. PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: You remember Padiyar?

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Yeah. PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: Thermodynamics.

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: Every week, he will give those five problems and

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: you turn it over, and he used to correct it and bring it back.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Yes, that’s right.

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: All those gone now.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: I do not know what the system of examination is now,

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: but when we had; we had these periodicals,

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: as we call it. PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: Surprise periodical.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: Throughout the year. MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: You still

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: have it? Surprise.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: And of course, we had a

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: half year exam and the annual exam. MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: You still, is it still like that now?

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Is it still like that now?

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: Yeah. PROF. C. S. SWAMY: I am not teaching.

MR. K. NARAYANAN: He has retired.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: But the days are fixed. MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: No. The point was,

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Okay. MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: the…initially, the periodicals used to be,

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: you know, scheduled. PROF. MAHESH PANCHAGNULA: Yeah.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: So, we used to prepare and come.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: After some time,

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: they introduce this concept of surprise periodicals. PROF. MAHESH PANCHAGNULA: Yes, yes.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: So, any day. PROF. MAHESH PANCHAGNULA: When we joined, we used to have periodicals?

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: Any day it can come.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: So, we used to prepare, you know, today is, you know,

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: possibly, there could be this exam and all that.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: So, then they became wiser.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: So, they used to borrow their classes from some other lecturer

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: and started having that periodical for that.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: That will really surprise me.

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: See, actually it’s an oxymoron to call it surprise periodical,

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: it is “surprise, a periodical.”

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Yeah. PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: But we went through that. We had a year system.

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: You remember Valluri, S. R. Valluri? MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Yeah. MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: Yeah, yeah.

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: He came much later,

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: when we were in the third year or something. MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: No, third year he came.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: He was very good. PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: But when we finished,

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: a few of us, I think Ramchandra Pai

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: wrote something, Siddartha and others, and gave it to him.

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: And came out with a figure like,

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: we spent some 6000 hours of periodical,

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: maybe 600, I do not remember that figure

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: some huge figure. MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Yeah.

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: And we had a year system.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Yes. PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: Carried 13 subjects

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: and 3 exams; first term, second term, final examination.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: All these periodicals added up to that final?

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: Some average they used to make. MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Yeah, that is why. Yeah, that is why.

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: So, it was a rigorous system.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Had to do well in the periodical.

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: In introspect, the only thing he taught us is some discipline,

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: nothing more than that.

PROF. C. S. SWAMY: I think in your time we had three terms, is it?

PROF. C. S. SWAMY: You…when you joined.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: I think there were two terms. PROF. C. S. SWAMY: Why I am saying is,

PROF. C. S. SWAMY: I joined in October.

PROF. C. S. SWAMY: In fact, I joined only to start the

PROF. C. S. SWAMY: practical classes for metallurgy students.

PROF. C. S. SWAMY: The first batch, metallurgy students.

PROF. C. S. SWAMY: I had to start Physical Chemistry Lab.

PROF. C. S. SWAMY: In fact, Krishna Das Nair, was the first student

PROF. C. S. SWAMY: who met me when I came to the campus. So...

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: Krishna Nair was in the first year - first batch, right?

MR. K. NARAYANAN: Krishna Nair.

PROF. C. S. SWAMY: So, I think it was on two terms and possibly

PROF. C. S. SWAMY: it was divided in some way I do not know.

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: I think it was The Fifth Estate guys who asked me,

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: “what is the difference I felt being a student,

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: do you having been a student and later a faculty?”

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: And I thought for some time. Finally, they

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: captured it very beautifully.

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: He said, “as a student I was solving problems that were given to me.

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: As a teacher, I was creating problems.” MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Yeah.

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: Not, we are not creating problems in the negative sense.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Yeah. It can be taken that way.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: You are creating problems for the others to solve. PROF. C. S. SWAMY: Since,

PROF. C. S. SWAMY: you were all in the same batch,

PROF. C. S. SWAMY: you remember the institute day being held in…

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: Yeah. PROF. C. S. SWAMY: ‘62 near Building Sciences Block…

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: Right, yeah.

PROF. C. S. SWAMY: Because the O.A.T was not there at that time.

PROF. C. S. SWAMY: And there was drama available.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: No no, it was in the quadrangle. PROF. C. S. SWAMY: Site of...

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: some civil engineering block. PROF. C. S. SWAMY: Yeah.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: There was a quadrangle, you know?

PROF. C. S. SWAMY: Right. MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: Where there was a big the emblem

of the institute was there. PROF. C. S. SWAMY: Do you remember the…

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: We had our Institute Day there.

PROF. C. S. SWAMY: Do you remember the character played by N. V. C. Swamy?

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: Who? PROF. C. S. SWAMY: N. V. C. Swamy, Dr. N. V. C. Swamy.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: Yeah, he was very active in all this academic…

Yeah. MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: They staged the Kannada drama;

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: they staged the Kannada drama

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: at that point of time. PROF. C. S. SWAMY: No, Kannada drama,

PROF. C. S. SWAMY: but his character, he played as a cook

PROF. C. S. SWAMY: and his neighbours, he was called as Gondhu.

PROF. C. S. SWAMY: So, in fact, somebody,

PROF. C. S. SWAMY: in one of the Campastimes or something,

PROF. C. S. SWAMY: they have referred to that name.

PROF. C. S. SWAMY: He and Y. R. Nagarajan, there is very... MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: Yeah, yeah.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: Civil survey, civil survey. PROF. C. S. SWAMY: Survey.

PROF. C. S. SWAMY: They two were very active in this.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: In fact, there was a little skirmish.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: In the sense, which drama had to be staged first?

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: He was staging a drama

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: and were staging Kannada drama. PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: …students uh?

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: So. MR. K. NARAYANAN: He acted as my son.

OTHERS: I see. MR. K. NARAYANAN: I was his father.

OTHERS: I see. MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: So, we were fighting with each other, you know?

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: Our drama, in between, there was a Malayalam shadow play.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: So, there was a lot of you know…

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: as to which one will go first, which one will go second,

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: and what is the last program of the day.

PROF. C. S. SWAMY: As an assistant warden who was in-charge of the mess,

PROF. C. S. SWAMY: what I remember is that day,

PROF. C. S. SWAMY: Institute Day, in the vegetarian mess,

PROF. C. S. SWAMY: students, they came and told, “we would like to have a special dinner.”

PROF. C. S. SWAMY: The non-vegetarian section did not want a special dinner.

PROF. C. S. SWAMY: But then, there was some extra, you know…

PROF. C. S. SWAMY: So, they still requested…

PROF. C. S. SWAMY: and it became a very big thing for us.

PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: Please summarize.

MR. K. NARAYANAN: Mallick, would you like to conclude… MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: We had a thorough,

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: enjoyable campus life.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: I would say that in conclusion.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: But today also, we had an interesting discussion, you know,

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: our memories go back, we relived those days,

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: it was enjoyable. All said and done,

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: when you go into your professional life… 'Yeah, always.'

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: When you think back about your student days,

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: you believe that those were the best days. 'That is correct.'

MR. K. NARAYANAN: You just summarize.

MR. K. NARAYANAN: With thanks to the Heritage Centre.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Thanks to everyone.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: I think, my takeaway is, from all that is, at the end of the day,

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: it is all about people

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: and how we connect with people. PROF. O. PRABHAKAR: Yeah.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: And if that is one thing, I have learnt over here

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: from the diversity that we had

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: and for me being a north Indian having been

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: brought up in the south and lived in the east,

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: it is great to have this cultural connect.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: And even today in fact, I am happy to say, I am in

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: contact with quite a number of, you know, our friends

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: and it is not just telephonic contact,

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: sometimes its physical contact with meeting up with them.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: When we go to California, we meet

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: some of the people who are our seniors

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: or Kripa came and met us once too, especially from San Diego.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Stuff like that, you know, that life teaches you, because

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: in whatever walk of life you take up, whether you are a professor,

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: whether you are a doctor or an engineer or whatever

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: it is, you have to deal with people

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: and the people connection, people management,

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: people bonding, people integration is critical forever.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: And the other thing I have learned from here is, the sense of giving.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: And if we have that shiva power - wanting to give,

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: whether you gave like Muthu gave out of his knowledge,

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: whether you give out of your finances,

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: because, at the end of the day you not going to take it anywhere.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: How much can you give your children;

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: your children don't want it also.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: So, give to your institute, to your alma mater

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: give it to people who need it.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: There are so many philanthropic causes that you can do.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: So, this love for people and the art of giving this is the…

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Thank you all for… MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: Thank you,

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: thanks Pradeep. MR. K. NARAYANAN: First, we will thank him

MR. K. NARAYANAN: Professor Swamy for joining us. MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Thank you, Swamy.

MR. K. NARAYANAN: Professor Mahesh, who also joined with us.

PROF. MAHESH PANCHAGNULA: For some time. MR. K. NARAYANAN: And of course, Prabhakar and Muthukrishnan

MR. K. NARAYANAN: for coming all the way.

MR. K. NARAYANAN: And the Heritage Centre, Mrs. Mamata and Mr. Kumaran.

MR. K. NARAYANAN: It is all due to Mallick coming from Bombay,

MR. K. NARAYANAN: and Rangaswami extending his full cooperation.

MR. K. NARAYANAN: Thank you. MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Thanks to you,

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: for organizing. PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: Thanks to Mrs. Narayan and Mrs. Mallick.

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: I mean, they have graciously given their time.

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: I know Rangaswami. MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: …after that I would know.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: And for Narayanan to who have organize it.

PROF. C. R. MUTHUKRISHNAN: Sure. MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: You see his painstaking messages, he has been sending,

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: am I right Mr. Kumaran? How many messages he has sent?

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: Yeah, yeah. MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Connect with each one.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Thanks for that. MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: And you know something,

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: he thoughts this the computer,

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: previously, he used to tell me,

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: morning 4 o’clock something. MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Yes, that is right.

MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: And by 6 o’clock he finishes all his

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: 3:52 A.M. I get. MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: reading, replying all that.

3:52 A.M., I get messages from his mobile.

Great. MR. K. NARAYANAN: My day is over by 9 o’clock in the morning.

Good. MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Thank you very much.

MR. PRADEEP MALLICK: Thanks for everyone. MR. K. V. RANGASWAMI: Thanks a lot, thank you.

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Prof. C.S. Swamy (Retd. faculty, Dept. of Chemistry) in conversation with Dr. Shobha Sharma (Alumna of Dept. of Chemistry)

It’s...it’s good to talk to you Professor C. S. Swamy. Yeah.

And I would like to start

by asking you something about

your education,

work experience before you came to IIT.

Yeah. And then why you chose IIT?

See, I...let me start from my birth.

So, I was born in Bhadravathi.

It is in Mysore State,

present day Karnataka.

It’s almost border and near the forests in those days.

And...according to the Bharat Ratna Visvesvaraya

who used to say “industrialize or perish”.

So, he was the person who started

the steel factory and paper factory at Bhadravathi.

Now, I started my education

only in Bangalore when I was almost

6 to 7 years old

because I think I was

sickly child during my young days.

And straightway I entered the

4th class in primary school

and after completing it,

I went into the 5th class in middle school,

middle school is 4 years in those days.

That means I had already learnt

about alphabets

and little bit of reading

the local language Kannada

or Kanarese and a little bit of English.

So I straightaway entered

the middle school 1st year

and where my elder brother was also

studying, 3rd year

and then after about one and a half years or so

It so happened that the school

was divided into two parts.

So, some students who were

beyond a particular area...who were living,

they were transferred to another school.

So, the government said...

So one fine day

I was told after...in the morning

before the lunch

that is afternoon some...

principal of another school is going to come,

these students are going to

study in another school tomorrow.

I didn’t know what it meant,

so, when I came for lunch...

I used to rush for lunch during the interval.

I told my mother,

I am being sent to another school.

My brother thought it was a joke,

but afternoon, suddenly

the...another principal,

another...our principal and another teacher

came and said,

read out my names and some other names

were asked to stand outside, form a line.

They were told we are being...you are

being taken to the new school.

So we were taken to a new school,

we are introduced, we sang the national anthem,

or the state anthem

because we are still...not in independence

and then we were told, can you reach your house?

And I asked which cross is this?

And they said this is

13th cross Malleswaram, Bangalore.

Then I said my house is between 11th and 10th cross

and I asked the teacher,

“Sir, if I go in this direction,

will I reach a banyan tree?"

He said, "Exactly, there is a big banyan tree."

"Then from there I know my house, Sir."

So, others who didn’t know, he said,

“I will take you back to the old school,

from there you know how to reach yours."

But then it was a sudden thing,

but then nothing could be done because

the government had given the order.

So I studied there for about one and half years

and then...and the final, that means...

'47, I was to come to

the lower secondary, which means 8th standard.

We have a public examination.

So my father thought

that I must go back to that other school

which is much better,

so he took sent the application to the DEO

and I was transferred to that school.

So in my school education

it so happened that

from that time onwards,

I was looked...look...I mean,

considered as a very good student.

I was going to bring a State Rank and all that,

but it didn’t happen.

Then, I joined a government high school in 1948

and then, around the time,

we also shifted our residence,

my father bought a house very near the high school.

That building even now exists in Bangalore,

it is a stone building.

And with the clock tower on the top

and very near the Indian Institute of Science.

And I started studying there.

Now, it so happened,

that myself and a brother, elder brother

we were very much

I mean in admiration of Mahatma Gandhi.

So, one day we were walking on a street,

and we saw that somebody is going to teach us Hindi

and then we both of us entered there

and then we asked, "What are you going to teach?"

He said, "We are going to teach oral Hindi"

that means, to talk in Hindi

and then it just costs you 1 Rupee.

To to appear for the examination,

it is a one-month course

and then we both joined.

And then after one month or two months,

the examination was conducted,

we both passed in First Class

that means, "What’s your name?"

"What are you studying?" something like that,

"What is your parents?"

A very simple thing one.

Then the first Prathamic, Madhyamic like this,

but then I never heard that

time, what a public examination is.

This was when I was in middle school,

not even high school.

So I think what I did was,

it is very...it is an anecdote, I can say.

I filled up the marks,

which marks which is obtained,

in that column I filled up the full marks for the question.

Which has put in the question paper,

I put 100 on the total.

And then my parents had told me

"Don’t write your name,"

I didn’t write my name, but I came back.

Naturally my paper was rejected, I failed.

So I said, "Oh, Hindi is not for me," I left off.

And after two years once again started

started Hindi, and to tell you,

in the whole of high school, for three years,

the second language I took Hindi,

I had no tuition.

I didn’t have examination,

except in the final

Secondary School Leaving Certificate, what you call SSLC,

at 11th...11th class,

and then I took the examination on my own.

By then I already come to the fourth examination

in Dakshina Bharat Hindi Prachar Sabha,

what is called as Praveshika.

Then within one year or so, when I was about 16,

I got the first degree Rashtrabhasha Visharad.

So in the college also for about

2 years plus another 2 years, 4 years,

I did self study

and I used to only write the final examination Hindi,

there was no this one.

And then this is my...

so, when I was in intermediate,

naturally the tendency in those days was

to enter Engineering

because that was the one which was paying.

So, you could get jobs easily

and then you could get good salary,

naturally parents encourage.

So what was important was,

you should get very good marks in Mathematics,

Physics and Chemistry.

In fact, I had got very high marks

but then due to certain quota system,

I...in fact, even on the quota system I had

scored very high,

but it...I didn’t get a seat

because I had not met the member...

selection committee member,

who was in charge of

selecting students under that quota.

And, I joined BSc degree,

and I had applied for Chemistry Honours

in Central College that is Mysore University.

And in the second or third list, I was selected.

First I felt that there had been a mistake,

but then I remembered what I had

promised myself, when I was in school.

See, my elder brother

we used to have a grammar book,

I think Wren and Martin, or some authors.

And then the author was

M. A. Oxon D. Litt. London,

it means M. A. in Oxford and

Doctor Literature in London.

So my brother used to write

against his name, M. A. Oxon D. Litt. London.

So...and one of the Chemistry books we got,

and I found the author was

M. Sc. Ph. D. then I said I am going

to be M. Sc. Ph. D. in Chemistry.

Well, why was...I got interested in Chemistry?

Purely because, when my brother used to come and

tell me about, describe about

the experiment that his teacher had shown in the class,

I really got excited about the thing.

If I choose, I am going to choose this subject.

But then I forgot all this,

when I was studying in college because

the question of employment,

the question of my father had retired.

We were six children,

and all those economic conditions

made me think of Engineering.

Once, I didn’t get it and joined Chemistry...

well, my goal was settled.

So, sometime around...around that time,

one of the Professors in Indian Institute of Science,

he was not a Professor then, he was a faculty member,

was a family friend of ours

Vasudeva Murthy, R. Vasudeva Murthy.

And he got his D. Sc. degree.

And one of his nephews, who was my

classmate in school,

he came home to tell me that

my uncle has got his D. Sc. degree

Mysore University.

Then immediately, I just pricked one of my fingers

and then wrote in a diary,

with blood, that "I am going to get

a Ph. D. degree in Chemistry."

So...and it was when I was in Honours,

and then it so happened that once I finished Honours,

again, an opening came for

Engineering, in the sense, IISc Bangalore,

used to admit students who have passed

B. Sc. Honours and M. Sc.,

to Diploma in Metallurgy.

And in Metallurgy, was a very very paying field,

because India was opening up,

steel factories were coming up.

So, the rank students were being taken,

and I was the second rank holder

and therefore I was

advised by Professor Vasudeva Murthy,

I mean my family friend, to take up.

I applied for it,

but then after realizing that I could not pay the fees,

I gave it up and then joined M. Sc.

in Central College itself,

continued for one year,

took my M. Sc. degree, once again in First Class,

but even before I got my result,

I had gone to Indian Institute of Science

and joined research,

because my a senior,

had already...was already working for Ph. D. there.

So, I just went,

but when I went and joined,

I told the concerned professors,

“Well, Sir, I am joining this

hoping that I will get a scholarship,

but you say that there is only one scholarship

a 125 Rupees

for M. Sc. First Class students."

"But, if I get it, I would continue,

otherwise one year my brothers have

agreed to support me,

and then I will look for a job."

And then it so happened that I didn’t get that scholarship,

it was given to somebody else.

But I continued, I was

interviewed by State Bank of India,

interviewed by accountant office.

But then, I picked up

I got interested in experimental work,

I made friends with faculty members,

and then by 1958,

I had already started on research problem

with Professor K. R. Krishnaswamy

who was Head of the Department.

In fact, I was asked to work with somebody else,

but I went and requested

whoever was allotting these,

these students I said “Sir, I would like to work

in the Field of Adsorption and Catalysis”.

And then immediately he went and talked to

the Head of the Department Professor Swamy,

and I was asked to join

and he was my first research supervisor.

So happened that about 7-8 months later,

one day I was trying to do my experiments,

maybe I was...I had not eaten,

or something was wrong, I don’t know,

Professor Krishnaswamy walked into the lab,

and this...my seniors were not there,

and then he straight came to me and

said, "How is your work going on?"

And then I said, "Sir, I am doing..." and then

suddenly he looked at me and said,

patted my back and said,

"The IISc is going to become a University,

and you are going to get a scholarship in August."

So because he had also come to know

that I was going to leave...

so suddenly, you know this was such a shock to me,

I started crying, I didn’t know.

By then he left and the,

my seniors wanted...and said, "What happened?"

Then I said, "This is what happened."

So...he...I just felt when he said that you don’t,

in a way saying "Don’t leave,

your interest in research continue."

Then, the...the...the information spread

in the whole research community

and then somebody came and

suddenly asked me,

"Why don’t you apply for a CSIR scholarship?

I have the form with me."

Then, I took the form.

You know for the first time,

CSIR was giving

junior and senior research fellowships,

it was the first time, and

and the form was got.

Then, I went and met the Head of the Department

and told him, "Sir, can I apply for this?"

He said, "Go ahead,

but then I tell you,

you are anyway going to get the Institute’s Scholarship."

but then he recommended

my this one, and sent.

In June '58, I was called for interview to Delhi,

and then within 10 days, I got information

that I had got a scholarship, 200 Rupees.

Institute was supposed to give

scholarship from August,

that I got it from June

and...the Interview Committee consists of

this senior most professors in Chemistry

from Delhi University and all that.

And it so happened that only

two students of the entire Indian Institute of Science had applied for it,

I was one of those.

And then in within four months,

they increased the scholarship to 250 Rupees,

and there was a contingency grant.

So, although I was a junior most student,

research scholar I was paid the maximum amount.

So...and from next year onwards

people start applying for Junior Research Fellowship.

but I then, having got this scholarship,

now my aim is to finish my Ph. D. early.

So, that encouraged me

to start corresponding

with professors abroad,

doing the research in the proper way,

in the sense indexing,

preparing index cards,

doing extensive survey, research survey and all that.

And then by the time within two...

one and a half years to two years,

I felt I had done sufficient research work for my Ph. D.

So, I have...by then

Professor Krishnaswamy has retired,

Professor M. R. A. Rao had taken over Head of the Department,

and he was my supervisor.

He had agreed to be my supervisor.

Then, he was surprised when I told him that

two years, I have completed my work

and then we started reading,

the checking the data

and checking all the information.

And it was in 1960,

it so happened that I had to go to Kharagpur,

for some personal work, to IIT Kharagpur,

and two times I went

and I knew Professor...

I mean M. V. C. Sastri,

Dr. M. V. C. Sastri that time,

he was an Assistant Professor there.

I met him once in October 1960.

Well that time he invited me to his house,

and then we were talking

something about our work,

and then Professor C. N. R. Rao,

Bharat Ratna C. N. R. Rao,

he was actually his student

for a few months, and so he told me a few things

about him, and he was my...he was my

I mean he was a faculty member already in Indian Institute of Science.

So...I came back, and we exchanged,

and then again I went back

two months later, by then I had already started

discussing my research work

with my professor.

So, I had even taken

some samples to be worked in IIT Kharagpur.

It also happened that

Professor S. K Bhattacharya,

Who was the head of the Department of Chemistry there

had attended the Second International Congress in Catalysis

in Paris.

And he was the only Indian

who had attended the First International Congress also

which was held in USA.

And, it so happened,

that I was interested in going through the proceedings.

So, before meeting Professor S. K Bhattacharya,

I went to Dr. M. V. C. Sastri,

and I had by then decided

that I...since I was going to complete my Ph. D.,

I was thinking why not

I joined to a postdoctoral with a different group.

I had thought of NCL, Poona,

but then there was nobody working in catalysis then.

I wanted to go to Professor M. V. C. Sastri

So working on adsorption

and he has guided

a large number of students.

So I asked him about the possibility of a

Senior Fellowship.

Then he told me,

"There is an IIT coming up in

Madras", I said "I know about it, it is already there", I said.

"No, no they are going to advertise

for Chemistry faculty,

it’s going to come in a big way,

you go there."

I didn’t know that

he was already aiming to move to IIT Madras,

but anyway I came back,

and then, the few months passed away.

And it so happened, my senior

who was not interested in writing up his thesis

suddenly started writing his thesis in my absence,

and then the Professor was

busy with so many things, he said your senior is

started discussing.

So unless he...I finish his work,

I would not like to take back

your work, I would not take your thesis.

Then something which I cannot forget,

I mean in my life,

on my 21st birthday,

the day I completed 20 years,

my Honours result was announced

and I had passed in First Division.

On my 25th birthday,

on in 1961,

I just went to my Professor,

took my blessings in the usual way,

then told him,

"Sir, today I complete 25 years.

I had planned my own by today,

I would be a Ph. D. holder

and I would be settled in some job."

He was simply taken aback,

I said "I have not done it.

So what do you feel, Sir?"

He said, "Yes, you are right."

And then immediately he said,

he asked me, I said "You see there is commitment to my

parents, commitment to my family,

the others who have help me.

So I want to..." Then within

one week or so, the advertisement

came from Indian Institute of Science...

Indian Institute of Technology here, IIT Madras,

and I was called for interview for Associate Lecturer

with the starting salary of 375,

the Lecturer was 400 those days.

And then I came for interview

and then interview was held in CLRI

because the part of the office was there.

And...the reason, why I thought of IIT,

was not only because Professor Sastri told me,

my seniors Professor V. Srinivasan,

I mean now say Professor because

at that time was Dr. V. Srinivasan.

He joined IIT in the very first year, that is 1959,

and then another senior,

Professor Aravamudhan

joined this institute in 1961, as a Lecturer.

When he was offered a lectureship

in Indian Institute of Science,

he felt that this is an Institute which is coming up,

so possibility of building

a department, or building a

sort of a group is much better here,

so he had moved here.

So, I had the backing of these two

and I came, attended the interview

and Professor Sengupto was then its Director.

The Member of the Selection Committee was

Professor D. K. Banerjee,

who was a Professor of Organic Chemistry at IISc Bangalore,

who had possibly seen me in the corridors,

because I had a common corridor

and Professor Yeddanapalli of

Loyola College, he was the Principal at that time,

he was a person working in my field

and I had met him several times,

he used to come to IISc during summer vacation.

He used to come and visit.

And I was also on correspondence with his students,

just like I was in correspondence with the Professor M. V. C. Sastri

and a large number of foreigners also.

And then he knew my work,

possibly this helped me,

and anyway that night, I returned back.

I had already been recommended

for a job in Delhi College of Engineering

from my Professor,

that interview was one week later,

two of us had been recommended.

So, next morning,

as usual I went to this lab around 7:30.

And one of the person who used to

come very early to the department was

Dr. C. N. R. Rao.

And at 7:30, he walked into my room

and congratulated me.

I said "What?"

He said, "You have got the job."

Then I said, "Well."

Now there is no...it is no longer confidential,

so I am sharing this with you,

point is you know he came

and told me like that and I said, "How do you know?"

Then he said, "I learned from Professor Banerjee."

I knew that he was working with Professor D. K. Banerjee,

and he had a student from Organic Chemistry and asked him.

Then, he has gone and told this to my Professor

and then Professor called me to the room and said

"I know it is confidential,

but congratulations anyway.

So postpone the celebration

once you get the order."

Within one month, I got the order.

Let let me ask you.

Yeah, please. So this was

when you were coming into IIT,

right? Yes, yes.

So let me...I...am just framing this,

you got your education

pre and post-independence. Yeah, yeah.

And you came to IIT, when it was just starting.

I am very interested to know,

Yeah. How life was in IIT at that time

and how it compares with later?

Yeah, naturally, the...the...the

in the 50-60 years the whole thing has changed,

but one thing I want to tell you, 1959 to '61,

IIT...this...this campus was not existing.

So these classes were being conducted

in Guindy Engineering College

and part in AC College.

And the boys used to stay in hostels somewhere outside,

and the first hostel to be built

was the Krishna Hostel,

and the second hostel was Cauvery Hostel.

And then the Building Sciences Block,

that is, I don’t know whether it is still called as the Building Sciences Block.

It is late, it was originally called as

Administration Blocks, Civil Engineering Block.

Then, they named it Building Sciences Block.

That was the only block that came up.

Then the workshop came up.

So when I came for medical examination

in September 1961,

so my friend or colleague

Dr. V. Srinivasan who used to stay the Adyar at that time,

3rd Main Road,

he told me "You stay with me,

instead of staying in a hotel."

So I stayed with him,

and then he brought me one day to IIT,

the Building Sciences Block

and Chemistry was somewhere behind

and 3-4 labs were given,

and there were two rooms given.

And then...I came to know only then,

that till, for two years,

Chemistry was a part of Chemical Engineering.

And in the first

agreement that was signed between

Germany and India,

West Germany and India,

the Chemical Engineering was included,

all the equipment had been planned,

whatever was to be obtained,

and since Professor V. Srinivasan was there,

they took care of one or two things which he wanted.

See one advantages of Professor V. Srinivasan was

he had done a Diploma in the

Chemical Engineering at Indian Institute of Science.

So he had a Chemical Engineering background.

So he could teach Chemical Engineering courses also,

as well as Chemistry courses because he done his

Masters and Ph. D. in Chemistry,

Physical Chemistry that too Adsorption and Catalysis.

So, he had advantage in both ways,

and then he started the

Chemistry Laboratory in 1959.

The...there was only a special officer that time,

his name was L. S. Chandrakant,

and he was the brother of L. S. Srinath,

who later became a Director.

And L. S. Chandrakant it seems to have called one day

Dr. V. Srinivasan, one Dr. T. Gopichand

who was in Chemical Engineering,

gave them a lot of money, cash,

and told them engage a bus

engage a taxi, or you go by bus

and then buy whatever you want to

establish undergraduate laboratory,

whatever, glassware, chemicals

put in a taxi and bring it.

So they did like this for two days,

and they got whatever is required for

running a class of 60 students or so, or one,

I think 120 students, or 100 or something like that.

And then that is how they started the chemistry laboratory.

And in 1960 also,

when Aravamudhan joined,

the same thing happened.

Only thing is, 1960,

a few more faculty...staff members were appointed.

Professor Aravamudhan came

because to teach Inorganic Chemistry part of it.

And then Professor Rajappa,

there was a S. Rajappa,

he was selected to teach Organic Chemistry,

Dr. S. Rajappa.

And another two or one or two technical assistants are appointed.

And all these people

moved in '91...sorry '61

to the BSB Block.

And when I joined,

we had only one preparation lab

and part of the preparation lab other side was the balance room.

And two laboratories

and there was a store room

and below this store room,

there was a Petrol Gas Plant,

common to Chemical Engineering and Chemistry

because one side was Chemistry,

another side was Chemical Engineering. Ok.

All the...but Chemical Engineering

also had some facilities built up

because the first batch students all they come to third year.

So in fact, I wanted to join in December,

but then the...

I got a letter from the Registrar,

that the second semester...of the classes

are going to start from October

at some such thing was there.

And then they said you are going to you are appointed to

start the laboratory course

for Physical Chemistry.

So I had no option, so I

took leave from the Indian Institute of Science

and then without a degree,

without completing my work, I moved over to

this place on 13th October 1961.

So well according to

French people 13th maybe

a bad day, but for me it didn’t happen so.

But then I started. By then

I knew that Chemistry was going to be separated

from Chemical Engineering

and then Professor V. Srinivasan,

I mean he was the first

Head of the Section,

although he was a lecturer. Yes.

And then we were all sitting in the preparation lab

and in November, I joined in October, November end

Doc...Professor M. V. C. Sastri joined.

And then he had already...

from the time he got his

offer, till he came here

had already made a very big plan,

and he had sent enquiries and got quotations.

So he came with big this one

plan for the department.

So, from the day he joined,

he was very hardworking,

but only thing is as a human being,

he was a bit difficult to deal with.

He was a very

hard working person himself,

but then I something which goes with certain people

maybe for various reasons.

But I almost thought of leaving this

in December, because of

certain things for which I was accused, which I was not

ready to accept.

But anyway I continued,

and in January,

I was asked to take over the

Assistant Wardenship

of Cauvery Hostel.

So. Cauvery Hostel,

Yes. So this was from '61-'62 year

you were already so... Yeah, yeah yeah.

So, some of your...

so besides being a Professor here,

Yeah. and teaching, being Head of the

Physical Chemistry part with

Dr. M. V. C. Sastri here,

you were also getting involved in

other activities like Wardenship. Yeah.

Yes. Because you know I

tell you why, because at that time

getting accommodation in was quite difficult.

And since Professor...I mean Srinivasan was there

and Aravamudhan was there,

they had talked to

the warden at that time,

Cauvery Hostel,

Dr. V...Dr. Venkateswarlu...D. Venkateswarlu,

Chemical Engineering Department,

he was an Assistant Professor, he was a warden also.

So, he offered to give me

give me a room there

and the room that was given to me was

that of the Physical Training Instructor,

who had married and he had

taken a flat outside.

So, the room was much better

and this was next to an Assistant Warden’s room

and it was very convenient.

And then I started taking interest

in the sort of student’s activities and all that.

Within two months, it so happened that

another Assistant Warden M. A Veluswami,

he was an Applied Mechanic,

he had some problems who resigned.

So, I was asked to take over the wardenship.

I was actually in charge of the mess.

A person who had never who lived in the hostel

and never eaten the mess,

I had to become a Mess Assistant Warden.

I did it with my utmost this one for about six months,

and of course, coming to the personal matter,

say even before I came here,

I had already seen a girl

whom I was supposed to marry because it was all

arranged marriage.

So I had only given...

I put one condition,

that I will marry only after I submit my thesis.

So since I submitted my thesis in May '62

so my marriage took place in August '62

and therefore, I had told the Registrar at that time

I am not going to continue,

I would like to spend my bachelor days in Mylapore.

So, a Luz Corner, and the reason,

there was a reason for it,

because during the early days

when IIT came over here,

the transport buses used to run

both in the morning,

as well as in the evening,

from Saidapet, and as well from Mylapore Tank to IIT.

So the bus from Mylapore Tank used to pass through Adyar,

pick up all the faculty and staff.

Similarly, from Saidapet

it used to come, and the staff,

both faculty and others,

they all used to take the bus,

otherwise they used to make their own arrangements.

And I think by '62 only, the first

two buses of IIT came

and they started running one or two more trips in between.

So, both morning and evening

one has to make use of the transport buses.

So, Mylapore was a convenient place,

so that is why I went and there were many others who was

started staying.

I was staying in a lodge that time called as Murali’s Lodge.

So even after marriage I stayed for 2-3 months,

till the quarters got ready.

The first person to occupy

a sort of some place in the IIT

Was the security officer.

And that was already there

it was not a new building,

it was an old building which was very near the

warden’s quarters,

or very near Taramani House.

So it was a small building,

he had to stay in the campus.

So he was the first person who moved

and then the second person to move was

the Director himself.

So, it so happened that...the

the handing over of quarters got delayed

and then one of the faculty members of Physics Department,

had already given a notice to his

owner in Adyar, that he was going to leave by

October or November 1962.

And then he had to leave and so he came and told

the Director, "You see

I am supposed to leave tomorrow, what do I do?"

So, over night, one quarters was got ready

near Post Office,

opposite Post Office.

They have called D1 Block,

and then he was the first occupant other than the Director.

So this how the whole thing started.

Professor Swamy, so that was in the '60s. Yeah.

So, fast forward to the '70s

and you know your time, I...I...

and you were here till the 90s,

what changes have you

Seen in the department? Yeah I will come to that.

see the...since I told you that

1961, we became independent department.

So, as soon as Professor Sastri came,

we started drafting a syllabus,

if as a Chemistry, as an independent subject.

So, same thing happened in

so I can say that first revision of syllabus took place in 1961.

So, there is one more thing which we did.

So we were didn’t want to waste chemicals and all that.

So, we started semi microanalysis.

You see the Chemistry Undergraduates

First Year B.Tech.,

they used to do only

some quantitative analysis, estimation

and they used to do qualitative analysis.

And qualitative analysis was being

done in big tubes and all that.

So, we converted into semi micro.

So to make semi micro kits,

the drawings were given,

they were made by companies,

the glass tubes were made to that size

and we wrote our own manuals for it,

we tested all the things,

3-4 of us and we started the class.

So, I had already had experience,

of organizing the Physical Chemistry Lab,

for the Third Year Metallurgy students

in 1961. I joined for that only.

So in fact, the some of the experiments I

arranged was being done

was possibly done by

others in M. Sc. later,

experiments on phase rule,

conductivity and other things.

So because all they made a planned

along with the head of the department, we got it.

And...so, the first revision of syllabus took place

and then 1962, the first

recruitment drive also took place.

So we had Professor Kuriacose

as a Pool Officer from January '62

he became an Assistant Professor.

And one more gentleman joined who left within 3-4 months,

and Professor C. N. Pillai, Professor Kalidas,

They came over as lecturers,

and then we had already...

I was an Associate Lecturer,

there was another Dr. Sharma who was an Associate Lecturer.

We had several Technical Assistants

both Senior Technical Assistants...

Well, when we saw the Senior Technical Assistants the idea was,

they will specialize either in inorganic

or physical or organic...

that means, they would have worked in some

places where they have their experience.

The person from Indian Institute of Science

who had already published work in Analytical Chemistry,

of course, he had published along with the Professor,

V. R. Satyanarayana Rao who was selected, V. R. S. Rao.

For Physical Chemistry, one

Ramaswamy, R. Ramaswamy was selected from...Karaikudi.

He had some publication.

And for organic, we selected D. V. Ramana

from Delhi University

who had worked with Professor T. R. Seshadri and Microanalysis.

And Junior Technical Assistants were all

B. Sc...one or two year experiences.

So the department expanded.

The lectures were being taken only by the faculty,

and Professor Sastri

had his first health break down somewhere in '62,

that was the time when I got married.

So, he seems to have told

that I should not hold the...any

any sort of get together

till he returns back.

He returned back only after two months or so.

There is something which I want to share which I...

some reason I possibly forgot.

The Chemistry Department

in 1962 itself, not only do they think of a new syllabus,

we started what is known as a 'Chemistry Colloquium',

where we get somebody to speak, give a lecture.

And we wanted to inaugurate it

and so Dr. Rajappa

who was a student of Professor T. R. Govindachari,

the almost...the foremost chemist

or organic chemist in the city of Madras at time,

he was the Principal of the Presidency College.

We invited him to give the inaugural lecture

and this was held in the BSB.

And the Registrar

who was an IAS Officer,

Mr. Natarajan was so happy about that.

Because of the first

club or whatever association was being started.

And he took the initiative

to send invitations to all the press.

We got invitations printed,

he gave me a car

to use if you wanted, the office car was given

and then since the press were invited,

press covered it,

and almost all the institutions

dealing with Chemistry in

the city of Madras were invited.

Well, there was a comic thing

about that in this one which I would

possibly mention if necessary.

Now, the function was held

in a...fairly grand way,

and then the colloquium had taken root.

The second lecture was given by one

Dr. Muttanna who was the Director of Lac Research Institute,

later he became a Deputy Director

and Director of IIT Kanpur.

Originally from IIT Kharagpur.

So...then you know this became

a regular thing and

when there were no speakers from outside,

one by one we used to give seminars.

In fact, I gave a seminar

along with the party.

So I invited all the faculty, which were there,

Chemical Engineering and other...

we are a small group,

So we used to call everybody

and then it was...

So, we started this in '62,

so I moved into the quarters in '62 end or so.

So, '63, '62 I told you we

we recruited Technical Assistant. Right right right.

'63, we decided to start the M. Sc. course.

So...and the Head of the Department was very particular

that all the Technical Assistants,

they were only Bachelors degree holders,

they should also have a chance to do Masters.

So, he talked to the Director

and both in Physics and Chemistry,

they were permitted to join M. Sc. degree.

Only thing is, instead of two years M. Sc.,

they were supposed to complete in three years.

Because they had their own class work to do and all that

regular administrative work.

So the...all of them joined, and happy to say,

that all the three Senior Technical Assistants,

all of them retired as Professors,

all of them in separate fields of research,

and one of the Junior Research Assistants

who continued,

he retired as a Professor,

and he was a Member of the Board of Governors also.

So...and if necessary

I can mention the names, it is not necessary

now. Please do,

do you remember? Yeah

the Professor V. R. S. Rao.

He worked in Nuclear Chemistry.

Professor Ramaswamy,

he worked on Oscillatory Reactions and then,

what do you call is I...forget the name...

oh yeah, let me tell Oscillate Reactions, Electric Chemistry.

And then Professor Venkatachalam worked on

Electro Organic Chemistry.

And Professor D. V. Ramana worked on

Mass Spectrometry,

Organic Mass Spectrometry.

Each of them were trained abroad,

each of them did their work very well.

So, they got a number of students,

number of publication.

So it was good.

So that is how Professor M. V. C. Sastri

was appreciated by

the Madras University

that he made a very good selection.

So, whether he recruited Lecturers,

whether recruited Assistant Professors or recruited,

so recruited people who could

take the department in a particular direction.

Now, coming to the subjects of

specialization and all that,

now as I told you,

Professor Kuriakose had already worked

in catalysis along with Professor M. V. C. Sastri

for some time in Kharagpur,

and he had independent work in

Belgium and also USA.

So he started his work in Kinetics and Catalysis

and Professor Sastri is started on Catalysis.

Professor Aravamudhan who was actually

the only person in the whole of Asia,

possibly I don’t know about Japan,

who had worked in Phase Rule or Phase Equilibria

in Indian Institute of Science.

He thought that he may not be able to continue that

because he did build up an apparatus for it,

but then he started doing analytical work

and Professor C. N. Pillai

started doing work on Organic Chemistry.

So this is how the four divisions,

Catalysis, Kinetics and Catalysis, the Organic Chemistry

and Inorganic Chemistry came up.

And then this 1965, again '64,

Professor V. Ramakrishnan joined.

He started, he is a person who worked on

Theoretical Chemistry and Spectroscopy.

So he joined as a lecturer, and then in '65

Dr. Ramadas joined,

again he had worked in Organic Chemistry,

but in a different type of area

and steroids and all that with lot of molecular transformations.

He joined. '67

Dr. V. Mahadevan joined to work on

Organic Polymer Chemistry,

and then '68,

Dr. R. Narayan joined

who had worked in Karaikudi,

and abroad, he had worked on

Electrochemical Problems Corrosion.

So we had in a way,

so Electrochemistry,

Kinetics Catalysis, Heterogeneous Catalysis,

Organic Chemistry

and Organic Chemistry both

say...what Professor Pillai was doing,

and Professor Ramadas started.

So this was the situation

as of up to '68 or so.

but then let me tell you,

I said about development of the department.

The first five year programme

or the Indo-German programme,

it didn't include Chemistry.

The second programme also did include Chemistry,

the third programme,

they started somewhere in '66 or '67,

it included Chemistry.

And the group came and '66

there was one Professor Schmeiser

who was an Inorganic Chemist,

Preparatory Inorganic Chemistry,

he was the leader of the delegation.

He visited Indian Institute of Science and then he came here,

and then it so happened that here,

I had become a lecturer only in '65

and I was not very very happy with whatever was happening,

in the sense that I could not do independent research and all that.

So I was thinking of going out,

so I had told Professor Sastri

and '66, I applied for an International Fellowship

to Germany and then '67, I was selected.

But then the condition was,

that Institute should give me deputation,

that may they must pay my family the salary.

The Director had signed,

but then when I went to him with my letter

he said that there is no guarantee

that we should agree to that one.

I was a bit taken aback,

but then it so happened that Professor Schmeiser

who visited the lab,

and Professor Sastri told him that

this is so and so and he has been selected,

but then there is some problem is being relieved.

He said, "I will talk to the Director,

no, no any programme that is

that takes somebody to Germany, he must go."

The reason why this happened was

that along with the programme, Indo-German Programme,

some faculty will be sent

to Germany and D. A. A. D.

DAAD Programme, as you call it,

Deutscher Akademischer Austauschdienst.

So that is how other Engineering Department had gone,

Chemistry got the chance only then.

So they said if you are having that why should we put.

So in that you know, the Director

they have their own choice, they can choose whoever they want,

and anyway I got a chance to go and I went away in

'67, not knowing what are we going to specialize in,

but I went there to work in a Nuclear Research Laboratory.

And that too working on Composites,

which was a new word at that time

synergy, composites all that was new,

I worked on it for a few months 8 months or so,

I almost guided a person who was my Betreuer

what you call is somebody who takes

care of me...regular things,

and he was doing his Ph. D. in Mechanical Engineering,

I helped him with his work,

by building some apparatus and all that.

In fact, I built something

which was actually taken into stock,

something an electro deposition and all that.

Now this introduced me

to some new areas,

not only ceramics, composites,

techniques which are used in

welding, like electron beam welding,

in chemical vapor deposition which was all

words which were not heard of,

sol gel transformation.

So all this, with this knowledge, I came back.

and then the Head of the Department was expecting

that I will come with some knowledge of nuclear instrumentation.

It was not, it was not the

thing for which I was selected.

Because it was International

Workshop in Chemical Engineering and Physical Chemistry.

So they gave me training in

something related to that.

I was working actually in Institute of Material Science

in Nuclear Research Centre.

My Professor was an authority in

Powder Metallurgy and Ceramics.

So I learned something about a technique

which was used at that time only in Germany

and United States,

what is known as 'Isostatic Hot Pressing.'

Even in the place where I was working,

this unit had been set up just at the

time when I joined,

and we are doing the preliminary investigations.

So...I actually worked on the properties of the

samples that the properties I measured was

electrical conductivity and thermal conductivity.

I used to enter the

radiation labs.

In fact, I used to enter the maximum radiation

labs also, where I had to change my

coat, 3-4 times to enter those labs, but not to make

any such measurements,

but only to use some apparatus which was kept there.

So, I returned back

since there was no chance for me

to do work on that area.

So, when I was asked that one...one of the

circulars which I was sent,

what is it that I would like to do?

So, I naturally I wrote say not

knowing why the circular is issued.

If I had been given a chance to build up a laboratory,

I would have worked on these areas

and I would have had by now, a Ph. D. student,

or a Masters student.

This was mistaken

by the Head of the Department.

So, there was a small

what you call...a...what do you call disagreement

or whatever it is.

It led to some

thing which upset my health.

He sent word to me

and he simply said,

"Here is some work for you.

I received...some tenders

and also some details about

some equipment we are going to get from Germany.

These are all in German language

and you have studied German,

I...please translate and

please let me know what is being written here."

Specifications and equipment and all that.

Once again my work started,

so I had to start doing administrative work.

Let me tell you because this has nothing to do with,

she was asking me about...

you were asking me about...

the... Basically, I want to know

you know the fact...I think this is amazing,

you have covered a lot of my questions.

Ok. What I wanted to know is

when you came back, and after all this happened,

what area of specialization

did you work on in the '70s,

when I was there? Yeah.

Yeah, you see. Because all these

names are familiar to me. Sure sure sure, you see,

All the names. What I did was, see,

before I went itself,

for Dr. Vishwanathan’s research work,

I set up an apparatus for him.

I did the calibration and I taught him how to work on it.

Unfortunately, I could not work on it because you know,

he is a Ph. D. student, he had to work on it.

It took a lot of time

because he is involved doing a lot of glass blowing and all that.

So, in the meanwhile,

I started setting up facilities and differentials from analysis

and magneto balance.

So these were facilities which were not there,

I set it up. Set it up.

And then in the department,

the IIT Madras was the first

to get a Liquid Nitrogen Plant in 1964,

from Philips Liquid Nitrogen Plant.

And I was in hold in setting up the Liquid Nitrogen Plant

and running the plant

for a few months, till I trained up a mechanic,

and then he could take care.

And of course, the plant was,

I mean it had worked with

a lot of...least efficiency,

because we didn’t have cold water to cool.

It was 11 HP motor

which used...which were using it

and we didn’t have a cooling system.

So, the whole thing used to break down within one hour, two hours.

And we supplied

liquid nitrogen, even to Cancer Institute,

they used to bring their cell samples

and they used to do experiments here.

Then, I used to tell them ok, I will give you a Dewar flask

filled with liquid nitrogen, you take it with you

and and the...I...I want to tell you about

the research work as such which is started.

You know, even in the

BSB when we were in the

small two labs and a preparation lab,

Professor Aravamudhan started some work with a technical assistant

and he published a paper

in Analytical Chemistry.

And this is a record because research work done

in the Preparation Lab

and then Professor C. N. Pillai,

he set up an apparatus

on the window sill.

See, if you go and see the BSB,

you see usually when you have a window, you have

a block outside,

so that there is no rain coming in and all that.

For the sake of having more space inside the lab,

the first Director Professor Sengupto

pushed the window back.

So that, that space you know,

Is used for cupboards and all that,

but unfortunately it used to...rain water is to come in.

whatever it is on the window sill,

he set up a reactor,

and then a lady

who was the daughter of a Professor of Applied Mechanics

German professor.

A German lady started working on it.

Ms. Alan Hough and even published a note in

'Current Science', a research note on that work.

So this is the way we

said whatever happens, we must do our research works.

So I could not do anything till '69

'68...16...60...sorry

'69, I...one student Maruthamuthu,

Who later became Vice Chancellor of

Madurai University, Kamaraj University.

He were the first student who joined

for Master's project.

He worked in adsorption,

and then Miss. Sitalakshmi. Yes.

She joined, and by that time you know I had

passed through a lot of health problems in '69,

and I was asked to work on a gravimetric unit. Right

And so we did some work on the

measurement of weight changes during adsorption

and we did some thermodynamic calculations,

and then, we published a paper also.

And she continued for her Masters,

Ph. D. for one year.

By then she got married and

she had to leave,

because she had married a Air Force Officer

who was on transfer.

So, again there was a break

and that was the time

that the new block

that is Applied Chemistry Block came up.

And the foundation of the Applied Chemistry Block

was laid in '68 or '69,

I was not very much involved in the

construction or anything,

whereas, I was completely involved

when the BSB, sorry HSB was set up.

And in in the new building...

so only certain labs

were provided space,

but then Professor Kuriacose

and one or two others could not be accommodated

there, because the way it was planned.

So, they stayed back here

and the Director that time Professor A. Ramachandran

gave them some more space

and...well, let may not go into some other aspects,

regarding my own my own promotion and all that.

I decided to move to the

the new block, so I just went and occupied a room

and as they started working there, I asked the

Head of the Department

give me show me a space to build up.

So he came and showed me a place,

so I started building,

I had research students.

So we started doing the nitrous oxide decomposition.

So that was the first one

and then we took systems which are not investigated by others.

And it later took isopropyl

two propanol decomposition.

So, this was the first Ph. D. project

which was completed by...

C. S. Das, so he was the first student.

The nitrous oxide decomposition was done by the second student.

I am happy to say that both these students

even before they...

completed their thesis work,

were selected by the Hindustan Unilever Research Centre

for...as Technical Staff

because getting jobs was difficult,

but anyway they were selected,

but they both submitted and they got their degrees.

And then they...there was gap

and...I must tell you at this time, whether I...

what I did in Germany whether utilize or not.

I said, "I...I don’t want to talk about the promotion aspect of it,"

but then A. Ramachandran, who was the Director

was very much impressed

by the work that was done there.

And in an interview in 1971,

he tried to tell about, or highlight the work

that I had done in Germany,

how it is very important for defence work.

And he told me, that your your

your expertise is required for Defence Metallurgical Laboratory.

I didn’t know at the time,

that he was the...

he was the Chairman of the Research Council of DMRL, at Hyderabad.

And...because of something which happened

during the the selection.

It so happened I had to meet him,

and then certain things he revealed to me

was upsetting to me,

I had to answer back to him,

but he told me "Don't worry about all that,

I am going to set up a

committee of three professors,

and you will be the coordinator."

I was a lecturer he said, "You will be a coordinator.

You are going to start working on composites."

and I must tell you I must...with...with all...

this one...that it one requires certain Directors,

certain type of Directors.

He was the person who could

start the Metal Forming Lab,

Metal Joining Lab,

Metal Casting Lab, that is the three

because he said,

"Mechanical Engineering is not just workshop."

So, Mechanical Engineering is practical.

so he was the person who started it,

and he went and told the Metallurgy Department

all the professors had basic background on physics.

So they were all Physical Metallurgists.

Metallurgy is not just

Physical Metallurgy,

nobody is doing work in Ceramics,

nobody is doing work on Powder Metallurgy,

what sort of work is this?

And...funnily, I was appointed as the Convenor of the Committee

consisting of the Head of the Department Metallurgy,

Head of the Department of Chemical Engineering

and a Professor in Mechanical Engineering

and instead of my going to them,

he has asked them to meet me

and then with Head of the Department of Chemical Engineering,

I drafted a syllabus,

a B. Tech. in Ceramic Engineering.

This was all in '71 - '72

B. Tech. in Ceramic Engineering.

And I said that...we said

that this could be taken in the 5 year,

say at the 3rd year or...

sorry 4th year and 5th year

this specialization.

They could till then they work

Metallurgy or whatever specialization,

they could take it in

courses in Ceramic Engineering.

The reason was

only Banaras Hindu University

was giving a Bachelors Degree in Ceramic Engineering at that time...

it was not very good.

So Ramachandran wanted it

and similarly, Metallurgy,

he went and told them about me,

and then I got one day a phone call saying,

"You are going to take classes

in Guindy Engineering College,

on Advanced Powder Metallurgy

for BE students there."

So I conducted a one semester course

in Guindy Engineering College,

and I was later asked

by the Head of the Department of Metallurgy

to take students for Masters in Metallurgy

and Ph. D. in Metallurgy.

So one student

joined me in Ph. D. Metallurgy,

it was very unfortunate

that he didn’t submit

his Ph. D. thesis.

But the work he did

is something which nobody else has done

in the Che...Metallurgy Department.

I...I have no pictures of its.

It is there, but it was all in slides which I lost,

but then we built Isostatic Pressing Unit...

Hydrostatic Pressing,

this was built in Metal Forming Lab.

We could get probes or whatever the samples.

I could...I don’t think I have a samples now.

With...you see normally when you do with...

certain types of pressing techniques and all that,

you only have the length diameter.

See, when you make a pellet

there is a length which is nothing but the height diameter.

So, you can only have

the length will always be the shorter than the diameter.

When you do a stamping...

see...look at the tablets,

the medical tablets that we have got,

whereas, if you want

to have the length more than the diameter,

it is long ones,

then you have to do it on isostatic conditions.

There was no facility.

So...the principle of isostatic pressing is

very simple, but

to achieve it practically is very difficult.

So, I used a regular

press...hydraulic press which was available

in the Metal Forming Lab...500 tonne.

We thought for a while,

the auto clay was built in the Central Workshop.

The necessary whatever was required was all built,

the O-rings and all that,

the rubber bags

and we did the experiment

and then it was a success.

So it was publicized,

but I didn’t want to do a newspaper publication,

but it was known to

industries outside

and we did work for certain industry.

But then...we in fact, wanted to start

an industry, the student wanted to start an industry,

but then due to

certain problems...political problems,

that was dropped.

Because whoever was to finance this industry,

was...told us, that you will going to burn your fingers.

You know it was something to do with magnets.

But Professor Swamy, so I am very...

I think you had a very interesting career in IIT,

but I also want to know a little bit about your hobbies,

I know, I have a feeling

that you were interested in photography.

Can you tell us a few words about that?

No...the see, it is just like...

see, I purchased a camera in Germany.

during my visit.

So naturally I thought

if you want to do...

say, static photography,

and that too sceneries and all that,

you must have a tripod.

So I purchased a tripod

and then I used to take

sceneries and with tripods and then

even in IIT during that...

the annual festival.

Like, the...the Saarang or something. Institute Day?

I...institute, no no, somewhere when

all lights used to be put

on the entire...from Gajendra Circle,

to...to the...that is I think,

the...some Cultural Festival. Cultural festival.

In fact, I had taken, I don’t have now.

I had mounted the tripod at the

Gajendra Circle in several places and taken

the illumination.

In fact, I had taken even the Administrative block.

And I had gone on the top of the block.

I had taken photographs of the quarters,

hostels and all that.

So, it is only interest,

but then it is a very costly hobby.

It is a very costly hobby,

and initially I think I burnt

quite a lot of money because

I had bought a projector also.

So I used to take positive...

the...what you saw the positive slides,

it is...see negative means you have to

once again print it

and then I mean convert it and

also print it, it costs more money.

Here at least you just

develop it and then you can show picture.

But then, keeping a projector

and again, projector lamps we could not get here.

So all this became a big problem.

And now you know, we have

come to a age where you...everything is in the phone.

So...the...I can say I was interested,

but I couldn’t pursue that hobby,

but then as regards the photographs which I took,

it is not every one of them were not taken by me,

except that as I was just mentioning as a small thing.

You know when the foundation stone for the

Applied Chemistry Block was laid,

so...I don’t know what was the reason.

Professor Sastri simply said that

"There is a camera lying in the department,

and why don’t you buy a negative

and then take a few pictures."

But I was a bit hesitant,

we...this...no photographer came.

So I took some distance shots

of the programme.

So that is what, I think she must have just copied now.

And and I also held

a one...one hour programme

in the department,

where I showed all the slides I had taken,

and I requested some of my colleagues also.

In fact, like that we

spent an evening after a cup of coffee.

I don’t know whether you were there.

It was all before you joined. Ok.

In '68 or '69.

Now, let me tell

something about this chemistry colloquium.

The chemistry colloquium ran for some time

then it stopped.

Professor Dr. K. Narayanan was the person who

took over from me, he was running it,

and then Professor M. V. C. Sastri retired in '74.

By then, you know we had already been

compelled to run a Summer School,

1972 Professor Kuriacose

ran a Summer School, QIP Summer School

in which I also gave lectures and all that.

And based on that notes that we had prepared,

Professor Kuriacose wanted to bring out a book.

Well, there was not much cooperation coming.

As I had written my chapters and given,

but then I decided that we should not hold it up.

So, I told him you carry on.

So, he published along with Professor Rajaram.

And afterwards we had

winter schools and summer schools.

In fact, 1979, I organized the Summer School

along with Professor Kuriacose,

and it was a very bad year

because we had very big floods,

bridge fell down in Andhra Pradesh...cyclone.

So all the participants in North India could not come,

so both from the Eastern Side and this upper side.

So where we had expected 40 participants,

we got only 20 participants.

So, it was in '70...it was a one-month programme.

I had planned

lectures from the students, projects work.

So I was running a overhead transparency,

I used to give them roles to write,

then with all that we arrange.

These were divided nicely.

And one thing which we started during

Professor Kuriacose time was to have the annual symposium.

I don’t know whether you attended...

yeah, you must have attended. I have attended.

We started it because

the University of Madras started these

projects for M. Sc. students.

So they themselves came and requested,

"You are people who are

doing M. Sc. projects,

we don’t know how to do this.

So, we would like to have some combined."

So that is how for their sake we started holding.

But, they were supposed to collaborate

every time, but it so happened that we were

spending all the time arranging for it,

and they used to come only

to present a few papers and eat and go.

So, to arrange a symposium was not easy,

because we had to arranged for lunch and everything also.

So it happened for about 10...

10-12 years and I think it also...

and later we used to have some sort of the special

lectures by faculty.

So this sort of thing started in the late '80s.

We...we also did something in the '70s, where we

collaborated with Indian Institute of Science.

No, not Indian Institute of Science. Professors used to come.

We collaborated with Kalpakkam.

Kalpakkam, Kalpakkam. Kalpakkam. Correct.

So...and let me tell you that by '80s,

well '80s itself things started changing.

And Chemistry Department,

has not only the...sort of

reputation for starting

research work even a Preparation Laboratory,

and producing quite a number of doctorates in the initial years.

And by about 1975 onward,

we started having association

with industries.

You may ask me how. Yeah.

It was again in the field of catalysis.

In 1973, a meeting was held in Banaras Hindu University

where Professor S. K. Bhattacharya was the

visiting Professor as...

or Retired Emeritus Professor

and Professor Kuriacose had gone there.

I didn’t know about the meeting,

and then they desired to form

an Catalysis Society of India

with the headquarters

in Department of Chemistry, IIT Madras.

Because Professor Kuriacose was elected as the secretary.

Till today, that office is in the Department of Chemistry.

And...the first National Symposium of Catalysis

was held in 1974,

December, the year in which

Professor Kuriacose took charge as a Head of the Department.

And second symposium was held in IIT Kharagpur.

I don’t know

how many symposium have taken place today.

Then I can just tell

that somewhere in 1997,

the Indian Institute of Petroleum, Dehradun

said that they were arranging the

Silver Jubilee Symposium.

So the Silver Jubilee Meeting you can say.

So that is to honour

I think...I don’t know how many people

who had contributed to the area of heterogeneous catalysis.

And in this way,

this particular plate

was sent to me.

I didn’t attend this, I was invited.

This is for..."In Recognition

of Lifetime Contributions

to the Field of Catalysis,

Science and Technology."

So, we introduced,

I was a Treasurer of this

society for 10 years, 1980 to 1990.

During this period,

I was also a Member of the International Congress

Catalysis, a period of 4 years

with which time, the Congress was held in Berlin.

For some reason, I could not attend

because you know at 1984

I was sent to England.

I went to UK to...

we had purchased the

surface...Surface Electron Microscopy.

Photo Electron Microscopy.

Or XPS as you call it, XPS

X-Ray Photoelectron Spectrometer

from VG Industries.

And so as a part of the contract,

they were supposed to give training for two people.

And so I went on the faculty member.

I took an Operating Assistant also with me

And...and as a part of it,

I was allowed to go

visit any universities in UK or elsewhere.

So I visited Germany

because I had spent 3 months in Germany in 1981.

If not working at least,

following the work in

this Photo Electron Spectroscopy.

So, somehow I felt

that when I came back

after '84, I became an Adjunct Faculty of RSIC,

Regional Sophisticated Instrumentation Centre.

Now, I don’t want to talk...

go into origins of that,

maybe there is a different programme you might have seen.

RSIC was a offshoot

of the Third Indo-German Programme

where Chemistry was included.

All the instruments we got,

spectrometers all that,

we put it in a separate wing

and we called it a Special Instruments Laboratory.

But for reasons of his own,

Professor A. Ramachandran

called it as a different sort of a thing

and Spectroscopists were appointed.

Professor P. T. Manoharan became

the Head of the Centre.

And that was the nucleus

of the Regional Sophisticated Instrumentation Centre

which was started by A. Ramachandran,

when he was the First Secretary of DST,

Department of Science and Technology.

In fact, chemist...the South India

was the first one where it started,

that is in IIT Madras,

service organization.

Now, can I just... Please.

So then, 1983, we arranged a workshop

in...at a catalysis first time,

for fertilizer and petrochemical industries,

and united the Madras Petroleum.

They...what you call?

It was Madras Petroleum you know earlier

MRL, Madras Refineries Limited. Madras Refinery.

Madras Refineries Limited.

The Chairman Manager Director, one

Mr. Deenadayalu, he not only inaugurated the function,

and he also made a...mentioned that

they were prepared to

give a grant to 25 Lakhs

to the catalysis group,

Chemistry Department,

to work on developing a new catalyst

for what is known as Fluid Catalytic Cracking.

So, at that time this was very much necessary.

Already a group was working in Indian Institute of Petroleum

and National Chemical Laboratory

and all those groups,

but we did it independently.

I am glad to say,

although, we worked for 9...8 or 9 years,

Even after retirement of

Professor Kuriacose and Professor Srinivasan,

we completed

and we could show even at

the semi pilot plant scale,

that the catalyst, we had developed was...

could be used.

Only thing was the company which did these test

at Haldia or in Calcutta,

they wanted MRL

to write out a contract for 1 Crore, that is

whether they would work on it. Yeah.

Reason meaning, reason being,

that they wanted to invest money on

buying the chemicals.

It is amazing Sir, I think we have heard so much from you.

Thank you so much for this.

Yeah thank...yeah You gave us a very wonderful idea of

what’s going on in IIT.

Ok, thank you so much. Thank you so much.

Thanks, thanks.

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Prof. M.S. Ananth "The IIT Madras Research Park Journey- An IITACB Webinar"

Good morning, Professor Ananth,

it’s a pleasure to talk to you again.

I trust you are keeping in good health during these pandemic times.

Thank you.

So you may recall that we had a conversation

few months ago in Heritage Centre.

Yeah, yeah.

And it looks like many alumni have listened to it

and they want more of the same from you.

So this is a kind of a sequel to our first conversation

which was quite broad ranging and

so I thought that maybe this time I would like to ask you

what you would like to talk about in particular, you know

other topics that you would like to focus on,

and if so we will…we will start with those.

Yeah, the primary things are the strategic plan

and of…as a follow up to that,

the Research Park, NPTEL and recruitment of faculty.

Prof. Nagarajan: Okay.

Of that the Research Park, I have given a separate talk

with the IIT alumni in Bangalore,

and that’s…I think already linked to your Heritage Centre site.

Prof. Nagarajan: Yes, we have given a link from the Heritage Centre website.

No, I think I have said enough about the Research Park there.

Prof. Nagarajan: Okay. Prof. Ananth: So, I thought of confining myself a bit to NPTEL

and also really what the strategic plan did to us.

A little bit about historically what happened in IIT,

in the first two decades or so, there was really no money at all.

I joined in 1972.

Until about ’92, when I became Head of the Department

there was practically no money at all.

And even from ‘92 to ‘99 there was very little money.

But we had started connecting with alumni,

which is another important point that I want to make.

Prof. Nagarajan: Right. Prof. Ananth: I think it’s a good thing that we are connected to the alumni,

you know that even better than anybody else does.

And we had the Golden Jubilee celebrations

that made us pause and reflect.

Prof. Nagarajan: Yes. Prof. Ananth: What we have done right

and what we have not done and so on.

So I think that’s an important point there.

Prof. Nagarajan: Sure. Prof. Ananth: Like to say a few words about…

and then talk about the NPTEL itself

as part of our mission that we failed to do in my opinion,

the IITs as a whole, but they…the IITs…

I mean it’s not as if they didn’t want to do it,

but it just needed somebody take the initiative and organise it,

and then the participation from IITs has been excellent

and as you know, NPTEL does some very well.

So I think those are the major things,

I mean some of the academic changes that we were able to do

when I was Director.

Prof. Nagarajan: Sure. Prof. Ananth: Talk about MA in the Humanities and Sciences Department.

Prof. Nagarajan: Right. Prof. Ananth: What the task forces for curricular revisions and so on,

and Engineering Design as a discipline,

the new department that came up

thanks to Bosch and Ashok Leyland.

Yeah, okay, yeah. Those are the things

and possibly a bit about biotechnology because

the Mehta Foundation gave us that money for that.

Prof. Nagarajan: Right. Prof. Ananth: Biotechnology…that and then

as part of reflections,

I would like to state some things that are important for IIT.

That…it’s not so much advice, it’s simply a word of caution

that we have to be alert all the time. This is a part of our autonomy.

Prof. Ananth: Right. I think that’s it. Prof. Nagarajan: Okay.

So, let’s…let’s start with…maybe start with NPTEL,

but you probably want to frame that in the context of our vision

and the…and the mission and the vision and the strategic plan?

Yeah, I think so.

I think the big change in IITs came

when Professor Natarajan was Director,

when Madhavrao Scindia became

the Minister for Human Resource Development.

He was a very enlightened man

and he sent a letter to all the Boards of the IITs,

saying that they should develop a strategic plan.

So they should know where they are going.

I think that is important,

because we were so busy making ends meet,

and running the routine programs

that we didn’t have time to think about the future.

In fact even now, I mean right through my tenure,

and possibly now, I think we are not thinking enough about the future.

I think a fraction…

there must be a subcommittee of the senate

at least that keeps thinking about the future.

That unfortunately hasn’t happened,

but the strategic plan gave us an opportunity to do so.

And as part of the strategic plan several things were discussed.

I think also at the same time Natarajan brought in this ISO 9001

which was really a bookkeeping kind of exercise,

but it’s an exercise which involved all the staff,

and many of the staff were able to participate

in governance and give you suggestions

that you woudn’t have had otherwise without their participation.

So, that happened.

So the staff involvement was an important part of it,

then documentation of the strategic plan

gave us some clear ideas as to where we were going.

So it gave us ideas about the lacunae.

One of the things I noticed was

first of all they said the vision can be written by the Director

without consulting anybody,

whereas, the mission is what the Institute will do

and that doesn’t depend on the Director,

mission is independent of the Director,

but something that you continued to do.

And as part of the mission, it was clear that the mission was fourfold:

One was education, second was research,

the third was industrial consultancy and

connection with the industry.

The fourth was improving technical education in the country.

I felt that that fourth part of the mission, IITs hadn’t done enough.

We did some few things,

we always were consultants for the

regional engineering colleges and so on.

We went there from time to time,

we set up a lab here a lab there and so on,

but it wasn’t enough; it wasn’t something sufficiently participated.

So…and meanwhile, the knowledge economy came along, by ‘90s

the liberalisation was announced,

but by ’99, I think true liberalisation had set in.

And we were already participating in the global economy,

but not very well.

And one of the big reasons for that,

the UN Report came out I think in ‘97 or ’98,

which pointed out that the gen…

the enrolment ratio…the Gross Enrolment Ratio

which represents the ratio of people in higher education,

by the number of people who are eligible for higher education.

This number for us was 15 percent.

For a population of 1.2 billion,

with one third of the people in the right age group,

this was miserable.

At that time China which is our constant comparison point,

it was at 30 percent,

and the US and Europe were around 60 to 70 percent,

Japan was at 80 percent.

So I…I thought it was ridiculous that a nation of our size

should have such a low Gross Enrolment Ratio.

So we did some quick calculations to see

how many more colleges can be started.

Turns out our typical colleges have about

thousand strength of thousand.

So if you get the thousand people coming into your college,

you will have to start one college every week in order to catch up .

So the brick and mortar model was out of the question.

Actually simultaneously around the time,

I was thinking about this,

I was Dean Academic Courses at that time

I did not know what is going to be done.

But, MHRD had actually arranged

for a team of Directors of IITs and IIMs to visit the US

to study this problem of education using ICT,

taking advantage of ICT

and they visited Carnegie Mellon in particular.

I think Professor Natarajan led the delegations

and Carnegie Mellon had a very successful experiment in Mexico

in which they had started online…essentially online education,

but they created a large number of courses;

technical education courses

and we felt that we certainly could do better…

I mean in terms of manpower

we had really good manpower; large numbers and so on.

And there was a Professor Paul Goodman

who was Director of Strategic Studies in Carnegie Mellon

who had an interest…who had a big project

and he funded actually

a workshop on technology enhanced learning in Madras.

He came and spoke to us; Natarajan welcomed it and

he essentially put me in charge.

So Paul and I discussed it

and we called people from other IITs;

in particular we had A. K. Ray from Kharagpur.

A. K. Ray is one of the earliest people in Education Technology;

he had done a remarkable job in IIT Delhi

and was doing a remarkable job in IIT Kharagpur.

But we needed to scale the whole thing up to increase the numbers.

So we got together and made a proposal,

that was called the National Programme on

Technology Enhanced Learning,

and the idea was to both improve the quality, as well as the reach,

because while we wanted this GER to increase,

we wanted people to be eligible for it and be able to get in,

and we eventually wanted a Virtual University

which I thought really would be the solution to the whole thing.

But my own calculation, you know the thumb rule

was that we needed about 600 courses ready

before we start the open…start a university.

It’s not an Open University…it’s a Virtual University;

there were admission requirements.

I wanted actually a virtual IIT,

but the other Directors felt that the brand would be diluted.

I didn’t agree with that, I still don’t.

I think the brand is what you maintain.

I mean, it’s simply a matter you must tell yourself

once you call it an IIT, you will maintain the standard,

but in any case the program started;

the NPTEL proposal was submitted in ‘99,

it was 2003 before it was funded.

What we suggested was that we run these courses on the web.

Connectivity was becoming very good,

but Murli Manohar Joshi, the then Minister,

he said, “You have to do video courses.”

He was very participative kind of Minister. I mean

he didn’t spend that much time,

but when he came to the meeting in Delhi,

and he said, “You guys have to do video courses, because

the rural student in India can relate only to a teacher’s face,”

and I think he was absolutely right.

The video courses have been the ones that have been most popular,

and he told us that he will create a

channel…separate channel called Eklavya Channel.

He said Eklavya because

he was the first distance education student in mythology,

and he felt that this would be an appropriate name,

and he will make the channel available for us to play our courses.

Of course, in the beginning we had very few courses,

I don’t know if you remember;

Professor S. Srinivasan in Electrical, he used to give a course on VLSI.

And every afternoon I listened to this S. Srinivasan

and I went for lunch half an hour I heard a lecture from…

not that I understood much, but that is…

we had so few courses that we had to play the

lectures again and again and again.

But anyway, that was the beginning

and we got about 20 crores from the Minister,

and another 5 crores for equipment

because we all equipped our various labs

and Professor A. K. Ray was primarily responsible.

He was so thorough with all the equipment and

he was a great bargainer.

He got us a great deal from Sony

for all the old IITs.

We all have studios you know that are very good

because of A. K. Ray. Of course they will need renovation again.

I mean this…I am talking about 2010…

when we…I mean 2001, when we set up this lab,

but that’s what happened,

and then we had to discuss

how are we going to run this programme.

I felt one IIT can’t take up this role fully,

so we needed all the IITs to be participants.

So I was made the Chairman of the Project Implementation Committee,

and I quite gladly accepted it

and I felt that a Director of one of the Institutes

should always be the Chairman

because then you can make the others participate

by talking to your colleagues.

So we had a lot of discussions; many, many, many meetings

because all of us in…faculty in IIT have strong opinions;

not necessarily convergent opinions.

But after a long discussion, after several discussions,

every time we had a Director’s meeting in a different IIT,

I would request…I will go there the previous evening

and request a meeting with faculty who were interested.

And this happened in all the 7 IITs.

And…then finally we came to a consensus,

we decided on some broad principles.

First thing is we will offer it as a service,

not from…we will not take on an

attitude of being superior institutions helping.

I think we are just doing our duty,

and we will do it as service.

So there are no questions that were considered silly,

if anybody asks any question, you have to reply patiently.

So for example,

one of the arguments was that I can only teach at the IIT level.

Then my reply was, “You can teach only at…

you know you are helplessly yourself.

You can only teach at your level .”

So, there is no point in your saying “I can only teach at this level,

you teach at the level that you…is convenient for you.”

But people ask doubts,

then you have to give additional lectures

to clarify what you are saying. That they all agreed.

In fact, I think typically Kamala Krithivasan gave…

instead of 40 lectures she gave some 52 lectures.

But the 12 lectures were not to dilute the syllabus,

but to make up for background…

lack of background in the students.

It was very well appreciated,

the whole thing has been well appreciated, I must say.

So we created…we wanted to…we created about

325 faculty members were involved

and we created about 400 courses I think, in the first phase.

The second phase was funded much more liberally.

In the first phase I had to give a lot of arguments

because I wanted roughly funding of 2 lakhs per course.

See actually little more than that, actually,

I am sorry, I wanted 7 lakhs per course,

2 lakhs for the subject matter expert, for 40 lectures

equivalent material,

and the remaining 5 lakhs for setting up studios in the various IITs,

staffed with M.Sc. or B.Tech. graduates

who would do a lot of support service.

They would do animations, they would do…

and they were remarkable;

these…our NPTEL studio people were very good.

They stayed with us only for 2-3 years

because they got permanent jobs and left,

but in those 2-3 years they made a difference

to the whole programme,

and they saved the faculty a lot of time

because the faculty gave a sketch of

what they wanted by way of illustration, they would do it exactly.

So all that worked out very well

and Mangala Sunder of course, was the

prime mover in the whole thing.

He worked…I think he must have worked 16 hours a day,

and the Chemistry Department is very kind to relieve him

of some teaching duties…major...

they allowed him to do this,

and he really did a remarkable job.

So with all these were set up,

other faculty also participated;

Kushal Sen was there from IIT Delhi,

he was running the Eklavya programme,

then there was A. K. Ray from Kharagpur,

there was Ghosh from Kanpur

and so, and Shevgaonkar from IIT Bombay.

So this is how it happened,

and finally, they all came together,

we…I said…as I said the first principle was

that we should develop the courses in modular form,

because there were several universities

and universities have different syllabi from same course,

and we needed to consolidate all the syllabi together,

take into account inputs from our own faculty,

who said, in spite of all you putting all this together,

this chapter…this whole concept is missing, this must be taught.

So we included that as well.

We came up with 8 modules,

of which 6 modules satisfied the syllabus

of some 6 modules satisfied the syllabus of all the major universities.

The three universities in the South

Anna University, the Visvesvaraya Technical University

and JNTUA Hyderabad, plus AICTE common syllabus.

So we did this, we insisted that faculty should

do the lecture sequentially,

they…there was a big argument about MIT.

MIT lectures are phenomenally good,

whose open courses started around the same time.

I think in fact, Chuck West told me later that

he also had the idea in ‘99,

but he didn’t have to wait for money .

And secondly, his was different;

he was simply

asking faculty who would like to talk about subjects

to give lectures on various topics.

So they were topic-based, not syllabus-course based,

and that made a difference

because you were always very enthusiastic about

a particular topic in your course,

and they do a remarkable job of course,

but I told them, that was like icing on the cake,

but what we have…we don’t have the cake of education, and yeah,

so we first had to create the cake.

So then they all agreed, everybody agreed.

In fact, within a few months they were all on the same page,

you know, all the coordinators, the NPTEL coordinators, and then,

the faculty joined, I was amazed at the cooperation involved;

325 faculties were involved in first phase,

and they all developed courses.

We also made subject teams,

and these subject teams then

distributed the courses among the IITs,

because initially we didn’t want repetition.

So we chose the courses so that there was no repetition.

Afterwards, in second phase we allowed repetition,

because you also want pedagogy to be different,

different people teaching the course…

we will teach it differently and

some students will like one type of teaching over the other, and so on.

So all that we did,

we didn’t pay too much attention to pedagogy

because they were more worried about getting along

with…getting the courses on stream.

It was only at the second phase that

we started worrying about pedagogy about various things.

Meanwhile, what happened was

there was a change of Secretary, Deputy Joint Secretary and so on.

There was a new additional Secretary in N. K. Sinha in MHRD;

the original Joint Secretary who supported us was Pandey;

V. S. Pandey, and then it was N. K. Sinha.

N. K. Sinha had a bigger idea:

he created this National Mission on Education through ICT.

That was a huge mission: 4000 crore projects…

and they are in fact, I also helped in presenting;

he wanted me to come and present the thing and so on.

He was very ambitious.

Then NPTEL got subsumed under that,

but we said we have to retain the name

because by that time NPTEL was well known.

So it must be called the same…by the same name.

He agreed and he gave us the money,

he gave us the funding. In the second phase we got 96 crores

or something like that, and so that’s how it happened, the whole thing,

but we did make sure that several things were done;

In the second phase all the courses were in four quadrants,

there were the lectures, quadrants are not equal,

lectures with three fourths,

and the rest of it, we had questions;

typical questions that would come in university exams and so on,

and questions with answers…so sort of a question bank.

And then we had additional reading

for those who were interested.

So things like this, there were four quadrants in this…

in the…further reading if they wanted to do,

search the area and so on.

So these things we are all put in together,

and everybody participated very well.

So the whole thing came off well,

and then we started distributing these courses,

initially by hard disk,

and we actually gave it to individual colleges.

We gave, I think…for 2 lakhs or something we gave

5000 hours of lectures.

And covering several courses in

Civil, Mechanical, Electrical and Computer Science.

So this was the genesis of the whole thing,

and I must say when we distributed these,

it was done completely free of cost,

except for cost of the hardware alone,

and it…they had to bring their hard disk and so on.

Many colleges bought it, and they put it on their intranet.

The internet then developed and then,

it was…I think Guha; our alumnus

who is with Google. He was Vice President of something

I don’t remember, he came

and he was very impressed with what had been done,

and he suggested that we put it on YouTube.

Everything used to be a bit of a controversy,

when…he said YouTube, I said…I thought immediately it’s a good idea.

But many faculty objected saying

“There’s a lot of bad stuff on YouTube.”

I said, “That will remain,

so let’s put some good stuff there and see what happens.”

But also, Guha did a great thing;

he got us a YouTube channel without advertisement.

So that was separately a YouTube channel for us,

it turns out, actually at the end of 2 years,

we got the award for the most visited website under YouTube.

It was remarkable how people were absolutely…

you know, they were desperate for good courses,

things like that, and courses to a syllabus,

so that they could also write the exam again.

Also a lot of people who wrote GATE

for entrance to postgraduate, found this very, very useful.

That’s how it happened; it caught on

and a lot of people…Srivatsan,

he was a former IIT Kanpur guide

who was at that time in charge of

the IIIT in Bangalore.

Later on…I mean Trivandrum, sorry.

And he…he was right through the participant in all the meetings,

Paul Goodman was always there,

and he gave us a lot of good advice from his experience in…

in fact in Mexico, the Vice Chancellors

participated in the workshop that we conducted here.

They told us

that the best students used to go to some two universities in Mexico,

after this Virtual University was floated

the best students came to the Virtual University.

It took some time for it to be established,

but once the students realised that it was serious good stuff…

so that is the possibility.

I mean eventually people will want that flexibility,

and I think probably happen…but

the Virtual University was something that

MHRD chose not to give it to me for…at that time

and…they gave it to somebody else and then

switched back and said, “Will you do it?” I said “No,

I am not going to take it.”

You know once the thing has failed in somebody’s hands,

it creates a bad…this thing,

then you would spend all your time making up.

So I said “No, you have to go to somebody else to do this,

besides I was getting a little tired; I was 8 years into the system.

So I was going to quit,

but Mangala Sunder continued…now of course, we have a…

we have a very good NPTEL program,

but the interactions between the IITs

are not as strong as they used to be…in the context of NPTEL.

I mean, we still have a lot of interactions in other contexts,

but in the context of NPTEL, I think the interaction is not quite as strong.

But each IIT is doing very well.

Andrew, Prathap and Niketh are doing a very good job in IIT Madras,

they have this huge programme of B.Sc. Data Science,

and also overall MOOC’s have been running very well.

NPTEL office is a very busy office.

So I think it’s worked out quite well,

and it’s been very timely, when the COVID came, it was very, very handy.

I mean, not that we anticipated any of it,

but then in any case, and my main…like this thing was that

you have to take opportunities as they come and positively.

You can’t very well say that

YouTube is…has bad things in it, therefore I will not go with it

I mean that’s all bunkum here is n…nothing that’s completely saintly,

there is nothing that’s completely wicked.

So it’s a mix of everything,

and you play the game along with them.

And it’s amazing how many people…

in fact, 15 percent…the hits are over a

300 million or something now,

and 15 percent are from abroad.

In fact, we have had several emails from abroad saying

“Can you…can we pay for it?”

“We have benefited so much from it, can I pay for it?”

But we refused to take any money.

I told the Government of India, “The total expense is very small for you,

and by not taking money you keep the whole thing clean,

nobody can accuse any

coordinator of running away with any money and so on.”

And once they start looking at…

looking after the money, then they will forget about this.

So I think it’s been in that sense, the principles were right,

and it’s worked out very well, and it’s been a…in a sense it is a success,

but you know it’s like the Chinese proverb or something,

it says “It’s easy to open a shop, it’s hard to keep it open.”

I think it’s going to be very hard to keep it open,

in the sense that Andrew and Prathap and all these people

now spend so much of their time,

and it’s rewarding in itself, but we must think so.

If you don’t, and if you think your research is suffering and so on,

then it becomes very difficult.

And it’s very difficult to find committed people to do this without a regret.

Prof. Nagarajan: Okay.

Prof. Nagarajan: I think one thing that NPTEL has done is make our

Prof. Nagarajan: IIT faculty into global superstars;

Prof. Nagarajan: you know they get mobbed when they go to airports and

Prof. Nagarajan: all kinds of people run…come up to them and say,

Prof. Nagarajan: you know, “Thank you so much, I learnt so much from your course,”

Prof. Nagarajan: I think that’s been great.

That is very true, even at the counter,

people will tell you…at the ticket counter, they will tell you

“Sir, sir you are from IIT.”

Prof. Nagarajan: Yeah, yeah.

You are surprised at the kind of people who watch your course also.

Prof. Nagarajan: Of course, I am personally very happy that

Prof. Nagarajan: Usha, my wife was associated with NPTEL for 5 years.

Yes, it was good good yeah.

Prof. Nagarajan: And that’s were very exciting 5 years

Prof. Nagarajan: through phenomenal growth Prof. Ananth: Right…

Prof. Nagarajan: and so, on. Prof. Ananth: You know she was a very enthusiastic manager,

so she managed the whole show very nicely in the NPTEL studio.

I mean, I think…I think a lot of people…

now many wives are involved; Balaji’s wife is involved.

Prof. Nagarajan: Yes. And she is doing a great job, Bharati is doing a great job.

So I think all of these…there is lot of talent on campus,

and we also began to tap them.

Prof. Nagarajan: Yeah, of course, and that’s why video courses have now

Prof. Nagarajan: evolved into books and live courses,

Prof. Nagarajan: certification courses, diploma courses, degree courses…

Prof. Nagarajan: I don’t know…where do you see the future I mean…

I don’t know, originally, I was thinking of NPTEL as

the bank of courses for a Virtual University.

So I wanted a virtual labs,

I wanted two things:

virtual labs I wanted,

IIT Delhi gave a great proposal and they are doing it.

I don’t know if they are doing it now,

they were doing it when I was in the Director’s seat

and they did a good job. It’s very hard,

virtual labs are very hard.

And then, there was…so, these were going on…

I suggested that we should have

a 100 laboratories geographically distributed in the country,

and located in many private institutions.

The MHRD should spend 5 crores setting up

these undergraduate labs per institution.

And that’s not much money; 100 crores…500 crores

and that’s not much in those days.

And I said, “Set it up and give it to them for 9 months,

let them use it freely…3 months they must run it for NPTEL.”

So the fellows can go from the nearest place

they can go and do these…that never happened.

Partly because MHRD is always obsessed about

private institutions misusing money and so on.

I said, “A fraction will always happen,

but a large fraction of them will do a decent job;

you trust them they will also do a decent job.”

I think it hasn’t happened, as far as I know.

So that needs to happen, then the Virtual University can come.

The Virtual University can handle 20,000 people.

In fact, I was trying…in a sense,

I was looking ahead at the

Ministers talking about increasing the strength in IITs.

I didn’t want that.

Not because I want to be exclusive,

I just think it’s very hard for us to handle such numbers.

When I was Director, there were 5,000 students now there are 10,000.

In 10,000 students…you can keep them engaged in class,

but outside class, having 18 to 22 year olds on your hand,

not being able to entertain them adequately

can be a disaster. I in fact, suggested to the Minister

that IITs are aspirational institutions;

leave them alone and let them

reach levels of the highest in the world.

Meanwhile there will be models that can be copied,

then as we go along we can copy them,

but don’t increase the strength in anyone of them.

But Arjun Singh told us, “You are just being impractical;

politically that’s ridiculous because

you are essentially encouraging exclusiveness.”

But you know, this discussion came up earlier

when Indiresan was Director.

And Indiresan said, “We are not elitist enough.”

In fact, he told the Minister that.

“We want to be even more elitist.”

In a sense that is true, it’s not about snobbery,

it’s about seeing how far we can push ourselves…

and you can’t do that with a very large number,

so you know in a way it’s happened either way.

Prof. Nagarajan: Okay, do you think a programme like NPTEL can be designed for schools?

In fact, it can be and it ought to be, in my opinion,

but I do think face to face contact is important in schools.

The NPTEL material can be used as a supplement.

In fact, we did do that

during 2008-2009

when N. K. Sinha took over and wanted to subsume this NPTEL

in the…this thing. He couldn’t provide us with funding

which he had promised already,

because he was waiting for this to come through.

I told him “You can’t do that and I can’t check…

I can’t throw away all these trained people.

I can’t get them again.”

Then he said, “You use them for any education purpose.”

And in Tamil Nadu we used them for

corporation schools and all that…30 schools.

We developed material

with the teachers coming in and using our NPTEL Lab.

NPTEL studio and the lab,

and in fact Mangala Sunder again helped in that,

also Natarajan helped in that. Physics…and they did remarkably well.

They made 30 odd videos for courses 8, 9 and 10.

Beyond that people were too concerned about

how well their children will do and so on. So they didn’t want to do that.

And also, this also takes a lot of time.

The teachers were actually I was

amazed at the commitment of the teachers; school teachers who came.

Many of them would finish at 4 and take a bus and come.

So I insisted that they take a taxi or an auto,

and we will pay from NPTEL

and they did that finally.

I told them, “You are just tiring yourself, I want you to be consistent

and do this,” and they said, “How could how we will be pay for it?”

I said, “You don’t pay for it, I will pay for it.”

So they were really remarkable,

and they came, they participated they took a lot of interest…

worked out well and

our Mangala Sunder and Natarajan made

Physics and Chemistry labs available,

I mean the departments made it available.

So they could do experiments there

that were shown live to students in class.

I think it’s possible, but I think it should be in the form of supplementary

material, it can’t be the main…simply because I think

students need a teacher at their class.

They need some role models,

they need to see people being sincere about it and so on.

You know, I have always been saying that

the teachers should be paid much more; the school teachers

Prof. Ananth: and… Prof. Nagarajan: So we talked about Research Park,

your earlier webinar, and you talked about NPTEL.

I know that the third outcome that

you are particularly happy about during your tenure was

faculty recruitment.

Prof. Ananth: Absolutely. Prof. Nagarajan: But first, I want you to repeat that

anecdote that I always recall about when you realized that

we needed to hire some young faculty.

Yeah, I know…go ahead.

No, you start with that.

Yeah, you know, what happened in ’98, I think,

we gave the Professor who is…who was then the

President of the Alexander von Humboldt Foundation…

we gave him an honoris causa degree.

He couldn’t come to the convocation,

so we had a special convocation in September of that year,

and all of us were…met in the hall…like function…it was a formal function,

we didn’t have the same crowd as in the convocation,

because the students weren’t graduating in that function.

But we had that ICSR conference hall full,

and our photographers had taken a picture from the back,

and when I was sitting with Professor Natarajan,

he brought the photographic album to the room,

and we both looked at it together,

and all the heads were bald.

I think we almost found no head that was not bald

(laughs) in the auditorium.

So I told Natarajan, “Time to hire people…(laughs)

look at the age of the faculty.”

He laughed, but it was about his last year ‘99

it was his last year...[indistinct]

So I think he did some, but not much.

Then I decided that that was the most important task,

I still think so. I think if you hire good faculty,

then you don’t have to do anything else; they will run the show.

And I think hiring good faculty is very, very important,

we set up an elaborate procedure.

We came up with an ‘academic performance index’

and then ‘overall performance index.’

See, academic performance index was for teaching, research

and Ph.D. guidance and so on.

The overall performance index included money brought in

by projects for improving infrastructure in IIT.

The consultancy was not counted there,

because consultancy has its own rewards.

The faculty gets anyway from remuneration.

So while they can do that

to help themselves and to help their teaching,

that wasn’t counted in the overall index,

but the research projects were counted,

and the things like fist, money to improve labs and so on,

all these were counted.

So we had these indices worked out fully.

I told the Dean Research and Dean Administration…

were the two people who drew the weights

associated with these numbers.

It was Professor Raman in Computer Science

who made it logical.

I mean, he never figures in all these things,

but he was the one who told me,

“You should normalise the whole thing.”

These days somebody may do only research

and he may do it so well that you want keep them.

So you must say in research

how many points you will give for research, overall.

So we did that and so,

everything was expressed as a fraction,

for example, if you only publish papers,

and I am talking about 2001 when we first came up with it,

we said, “I would expect you to publish 125 papers in your career.”

So this is just a number,

and we knew it had to change with discipline

and change with [indistinct] and so on.

Some refinements we will introduce later,

but this gave you an idea…

so even if the…others were…columns were blank,

you had those significant contributions to show,

because of which you could retain the faculty member.

So, for promotions and for new faculty,

for everybody, this was the very nice thing

and the lot of exercise was done,

the best papers that the…applicants were asked to name the best papers,

and the best papers were read by faculty in the department

in the area; they make comments on it,

those comments came to the Director,

Head of the Department forwarded.

The Head of the Department also used it to screen the application,

so there was a very long…huge effort;

I mean, before every recruitment, the three of us:

the Director, the Dean Research and Dean Administration

would visit the department

and look at all the borderline cases.

I mean cases that were

rejected with only a very close score and so on.

And so, after discussion we

called all these people then they were selected.

So we had about 600 on an average, applications every year

after screening, out of that we picked 35.

That was the average score,

I think Bhaskar has about similar numbers may be a little more,

but he also finds that…he can be sure only of about 35 people,

because once you take them

and we don’t have a system by which we eliminate them afterwards.

So…and it’s also not fair to eliminate them

in an economy which doesn’t have parallel movement.

I mean in the US, if you leave the university

you can go to the industry, here you can’t, not yet, but in any case…

so we did all this…took a lot of effort,

and we didn’t give the weightages to the people,

but [indistinct] we have…we had international publications,

national publications and so on.

One thing I couldn’t get is the departments to tell me

which was the most important journals there.

I wanted to give…them to give me A B C,

so that I could weightage…weight the articles published,

but they said no.

So, what then happened was finally, we had this 35…

so we had a recruitment of about 350 people

when I was Director there, about 125 retired,

so we still ended up with about 500 faculty,

whereas, when I joined it was 320,

when I became Director it was at 320.

And the students’ strength was increasing.

So, we finally ended up with about 500.

I think now it’s 600-650 or something like that,

I mean numbers have being increasing.

And I remember that 3 years after the recruitment drive,

the Electrical Engineering Department faculty beat the students

in the cricket match fair and square.

Because lots of youngsters in the faculty

who were good players,

it so happened that they were reasonably good players.

So it was sort of line…very reviving thing.

You had a feeling that you had a lot of young people…

there was some future in the whole thing.

So basically the strategic plan did that;

it did also…our ISO 9000 also cut down a lot of rules.

There is always people complaining about bureaucracy…bureaucracy.

In itself, bureaucracy is not bad I think [indistinct]

[Indistinct] says it’s rule of the norm.

But I think we reduced it considerably because of ISO 9001.

And thanks to a lot of suggestions from intelligent staff,

who felt…who are not shirking work, who simply said,

“This is a unnecessary duplication, this should not be done,

this should be done,” and so on.

One of the recommendations…

it was a very peculiar, a very good recommendation,

they said, “Move the…

the academic section to the ground floor,

then your electricity consumption will decrease.”

Because students were coming to the fourth floor regularly using the lift,

and the number was so large,

that it would have been logical to shift

the academic section to the ground floor,

but for some reason a lot of Deputy Registrars and Assistant Registrars,

they had the reason, they said,

“It’s much safer in the 4th floor.”

I mean the possibility of theft possibility of…

you know, one fellow, one crook doing things wrong

with the academic section is very high.

So keep it in the 4th floor.

So I was just saying the level of participation in detail was remarkable.

It showed a lot of staff were actually very interested in IIT,

and in its functions…and Professor Gokhale ran the ISO 9001, first time.

He did eliminate a large number of rules that we had…

that were not necessary there.

So that’s the…

You know there is now…I mean push to also recruit international faculty.

Prof. Ananth: Yes. Prof. Nagarajan: What do you think about that?

Do you think that will help the IITs in the long run?

I think…I think it’s very, very important.

In fact, I wrote…article on…

we had a ‘Golden Jubilee Reflections’;

small booklet that I think Professor L. S. Ganesh had brought out.

Different people wrote articles in it, one of them was me, as that…

and I wrote saying

“the Golden Jubilee is a good time to reflect on what we have done

and what we want to do.”

And I said, “If you compare us with the best universities abroad,

mostly I am familiar with US universities but the good universities abroad…

we had done some things right;

first thing is that we realised that

hiring young faculty brings a fresh…

a breath of fresh air to the Institution,

and giving them autonomy, complete autonomy.

But I insisted every young faculty member

who joined come and see me.

The first thing I told him was, “You don’t have a boss,

and formally although I am the boss

I am telling you: you don’t have a boss.

The whole idea is for us to

benefit from your ideas,

and you have to cooperate with the Institutional schemes,

but otherwise you are the…you are completely [indistinct].”

Second was that

money comes to research based on proposals given to various agencies,

and that’s good because that competition sharpens you and so on.

Then we said, “We do need the…”

I mea… noted a few other things that we have done right,

but we also said that we haven’t done a few things right.

One of the things that happens when you get rated internationally is

the international character of the Institute.

And that depends on the number of international students you have

and the number of faculty you have.

And this thing, my opinion is always been important because

while the science is universal,

the scientist has a cultural background,

and therefore set of prejudices.

If you have a mix of cultures, then you have…

some prejudice is overcome easily because

some of the faculty now don’t have those prejudices.

So that is really the crux of it,

and I found that we were losing some 5 percent - 10 percent marks

in the rankings, and that is a huge amount of marks…

you can’t very well expect to get to the top without them.

Similarly, you needed graduate students who were from other cultures.

I wasn’t so…particular about undergraduates,

but at under…at the graduates level I wanted

students to be selected by us

for admission, I felt people would come.

And…I mean, that has happened and

I think it needs to happen more openly.

Faculty for example; we can hire

visiting faculty, we can give them professor appointments,

but for 5 years.

I think that does not encourage the feeling of belonging.

You need people permanently there, knowing that they can’t be fired

I mean except…unless they do extraordinary things.

So, I think that’s where the crux of it was; I think

it’s…more and more people are coming now,

but we still…I don’t know

if we have a provision for giving them permanent employment.

But I think that is important.

And…so, I think it’s a good idea, it’s a good idea to have

one third of your students,

at least one third of your students from abroad…

from other cultures, not Indians

from abroad, but from actually different cultures.

I think that’s important,

that’s the secret of the success of the graduate student with us

that mix of students of different cultures

and that seems to help them understand.

Since it works there, why can’t we copy it?

Prof. Nagarajan: So as a Director you are quite active in

Prof. Nagarajan: building international relations as well as alumni relations.

Prof. Nagarajan: How do you think IIT Madras benefited

Prof. Nagarajan: and continues to benefit from these efforts?

I think the funny thing was that the alumni

felt we were indifferent as an institute.

I think they were right to a large extent,

but to be fair to us,

I should also say that we were living hand to mouth

and the [indistinct] thing, but

Professor Natarajan realised the importance of it and he started the whole thing

See, in 1997, the Silver Reunion of the ‘72 batch of che…of our students,

who was the first one that was conducted in some scale.

I remember the students coming there,

I still remember this conversation with a bunch of students, I think I told you this before,

but they came and they wanted to give a donation…

contribution for scholarship or something, I don’t remember.

I was Dean Academic Courses, so Natarajan sent them to me.

Some of them were Chemical Engineers,

and I had given a lecture in one of their courses.

So, they came and said,

“We want to give you a donation,

how do we know you use the money properly?”

So I said, “How do I know you earned it properly?”

They were very upset.

I told them, “Look I don’t mean to upset you,

but I think you should realise that you have to give this money with humility

and I will receive it with humility,

both for a bigger cause for the IIT.”

And they were furious,

but they came back next morning and said they agreed with me.

And we are still very good friends…many of them are good friends.

But, I did feel that they had a lot of ideas

and they had no opportunity to express those ideas anywhere in IIT forum.

Secondly, I also found that they didn’t know anything about IIT after they left.

So their whole idea of IIT was of an undergraduate institution,

whereas, we had a large number of post graduate students,

we had really good theses Ph.D. theses and so on.

So finally I said, “We have to talk to about to them about our research,

what we want funded, what projects we think are good,” and so on.

And worked out very well;,you came with me,

you made a big difference in the Professor-Alumni affairs

because you introduced a lot of procedures and…

that were very useful for contacting them,

and I think prompt…

your promptness in replying to emails itself is a huge thing.

It was the change from anything that had happened before.

And the second thing was transparency;

I had been insisting on transparency in administration,

but you actually practised it fully; 100 percent in the alumni office.

I mean any time any contribution was made,

IIT Madras was known to be

the most transparent institution [indistinct].

Because they…you put up immediately how it was used,

where it went, where it is parked, what it’s used for.

I think overall we built up relations in the…

Bhaskar has taken it to greater heights

subsequently you became Dean.

Now, Mahesh is Dean,

I think overall, the alumni relations with IIT Madras are very, very good,

and they also participated quite

enthusiastically in the Research Park,

although they were getting a bit fed up because it took 8 years.

So every year I go to IIT…you have been with me several times,

every time we spoke about the Research Park,

there was a smile of scepticism on their faces,

but in 2009, things changed;

suddenly they saw the beginnings of it, and 2010,

a lot of them wrote to me saying,

“We didn’t quite believe you, but it’s actually become a reality.”

So I think it’s…it helped,

but I knew this would take time,

I wasn’t going to defend myself. I allowed it to take time.

So I think they’ve come up with a large number of ideas,

then the ’81…your batch of course, came up with that CFI idea…

Centre for Innovation of which you are also very proud.

It was actually a very good thing

because along with the Research Park you needed a centre here,

which was informally…which wasn’t worried about money.

But we should come up with ideas

that were potential good ideas for incubation and startup.

I think the CFI is being… we got rid of

one of the sheds in the workshop;

carpentry shed or something and converted it into CFI.

And as I said, I have always been

amazed at the interest the students directly

and now they were smiling all the time,

wheras they don’t smile in class much.

But I think it’s fine,

I mean, it’s just that they were interested in it very much,

they weren’t fazed.

They did a remarkable job of managing it all on their own.

We said give the key students both…

there was a faculty advisor,

who has always kept core struck with them,

but I think they managed the whole thing on their own.

So I think that whole innovation through

entrepreneurship pipeline is now so well laid out, you know.

Prof. Ananth: Exactly.

So anybody can make the journey,

so to speak.

Yeah, absolutely. And the incubation centres in the Research Park also

doing very well, I mean they know how to take care of these.

So, I think

starting new programmes, new departments, new schools is another

important thing for an institution to do to…to stay current

and I believe there were…there was a big School of Biosciences

and a Department of Engineering Design that were started

during your time. What are your recollections on…on how…

Prof. Ananth: Department of Management Studies became

independent only during my time;

it was part of the Humanities Department,

but we finally…we were able to push through an MHRD order.

Prof. Nagarajan: Sure.

The only problem has been, in my opinion,

I don’t know if Bhaskar sees it also as a problem.

Basically that the management departments in the IITs

don’t deal too well with finance,

and financial management is a very, very important component

for a management school to become famous.

So we haven’t…while we have publications,

we haven’t reached kind of a reputation that we could have,

like the IIMs, if we had a strong group in financial management,

and that hasn’t happened,

but in any case that was the first one

that took off from humanities and became a separate department.

We have built a new library,

so we gave the old library building to

Department of Management Studies.

And then we started M.A. in English.

I’d always felt that the

our students who came from different backgrounds,

they usually had good general knowledge in first year.

Of course, my memory is all of the first few batches,

all with your batches since one.

Up to about ’83-’84…

that was the transition from 5-year to 4-year,

and up to that point,

there were a lot of interesting conversation

you could have with students outside your topic,

and that I somehow thought was very important.

It sort of shows a breadth of exposure,

and the chances of your getting ideas from other fields.

And…and I somehow felt that was missing.

It was…used to be reflected even in the cultural programmes,

that time it was Mardi Gras and so on.

But, it was getting a bit…this thing,

and I wanted an…Masters Programme in Humanities.

We had one with about 60 students

in three disciplines:

Economics, Development Studies and English.

I think Economics would drop subsequently,

but the other two remain.

And the students who came to this programme,

wrote the competitive examination in all-India level.

They were as selective as the JEE.

In fact, there were a couple of people who

got through JEE, got an admission,

but took the M.A. programme.

So that increased the prestige of the programme.

Also those kids could hold their own against the B.Techs.

Because the postgraduates have always suffered in terms of confidence,

and so the B.Techs. have owned the place for a long time,

but I think the M.A. programme helped even it out a bit.

There were still the Bachelor’s students,

but they were students whom M.A. students and…

they were from a different…they had a different perspective,

and that happened,

we had several task courses that changed the curriculum

and provided more electives and more choice.

Then we had the Engineering Design programme,

I mean engineering design is becoming more and more important

I approached Seshasayee and Ashok Leyland,

and he had…Bosch and Ashok Leyland were close collaborators

they brought in Bosch,

I mean between Bosch and Ashok Leyland,

they gave us 8 crores to start a new department.

That is how the Engineering Design Department came.

And that has been a quite a good success…

lot of biomedical went in there

and there was lot of classical design.

It’s not as if other departments don’t do it,

because I think the emphasis here is on design; synthesis and design.

So that also worked out very well.

I think it’s on…more than that, in the strategic plan,

while discussing it, and during the reflections of the Golden Jubilee,

we felt there were two important points that we need to emphasize.

It’s not as if we don’t, but I think we don’t emphasize it enough.

One is autonomy; the kind of academic autonomy that we have had,

and I think that needs to be preserved, you can’t take it for granted.

If you don’t watch out, there will be interference from other sources,

because others have strong opinions,

but your senate should have discussed and

you must be the final arbiter.

And the second is what

Charles Lee came from MIT to visit us.

He gave a talk.

He talked about what is called ‘publicness.’

And publicness has to do with

essentially structures that preserve the

autonomy of an academic institution,

even if autonomy means…

preserve it from interference from the government,

even if it is funded by the government.

That, I think is an important characteristic

and we don’t have such structures,

we have to create them,

it doesn’t matter if we copy, we can always adapt it.

We don’t always copy for backup.

We sort of copy and adapt to our conditions and so on.

But I think that needs to be done.

The other point that came out of the strategic plan is…

the…Bhaskar is fully aware of this also,

that fundamentally our senate should have future plans for IIT.

I think it should discuss…there must be a

mechanism by which a separate subcommittee at the senate

discusses the future,

consults faculty and brings it back to the senate from time to time.

And then you will see where you are going.

I am not saying you will see all of the path,

but you would see part of the path.

I think that’s important.

Prof. Nagarajan: Yeah, by the way at…Institute level

Prof. Nagarajan: now there is the Advisory Committee

Prof. Nagarajan: which has people from you know, from alumni and industry,

which is a separate body from the Board of Governors,

so, hopefully that will be of some help in providing

strategic directions for the Institute in future as well.

Prof. Ananth: My feeling is you need a board like that,

but to that board, the agenda that comes to the board,

should be set by the senate subcommittee.

Prof. Nagarajan: Sure, sure, sure.

Because they are after all, busy people,

they are very good people, they are wise people,

but they have their own commitments.

Prof. Nagarajan: Sure. Prof. Ananth: They are not going to come up with ideas for you,

you should come up with ideas which you take to them

for refining and positioning properly.

So from an autonomy viewpoint,

do you think the designation of IIT Madras as

an Institution of Eminence is going to be of help?

Actually, I don’t know too much about this Institution of Eminence;

I was a bit disappointed with the wording.

Institution of Eminence

the ‘excellence’ I have heard, the Institution of Eminence

I didn’t understand, because we were already eminent, anyway.

The IITs are so few,

in the country with such large number of students

that, you know, but I don’t know if that is going to make a difference.

Those are only words.

I think unless we make a postulate,

we make a postulate saying,

“These are the ways in which we should guard against

autonomy being eroded,”

because nobody takes away your autonomy like that.

They erode your autonomy in small ways,

and you don’t notice it, and after a while it becomes a habit.

I found this in Anna University,

I was…used to be on their syndicate,

and I found that the Secretary Education of the State

never attends to syndicate meetings,

but then writes to the Vice Chancellor saying,

“The following decisions in the syndicate may be deleted.”

And if at all independently I had met him,

in my capacity as Director of IIT, he was a very decent guy,

and I couldn’t understand how he could even write that.

And I found that he got used to writing it for IIT…for Anna University

because Anna University had never protested.

It’s a matter of habits, more than anything else,

and some of these things of commission,

are best handled by preventing them from happening.

Once they happen, you have to actually fight the fellow

and the fellow deals with you on a daily basis with finance,

everything and then he can get…you know,

he can have a bad feeling about it and so on.

So I think you have to prevent them;

prevention is much better than cure.

So you have to prevent any…for example, in the M.A.

programme that we started,

Secretary Education at that time,

told me, “Take them…take the students from your JEE,

go down the list and take them.” I said, “I won’t.”

We discussed in the senate,

and they all agreed that we need a different perspective,

so we need students…you know different…with different interests,

and he was very unhappy, Kanpur said they will…

Kanpur said they will call the programme M.Sc. in Economics.

I said, “I won’t do that either, I call it M.A. in Economics,

and I will take it with...”

Then Secretary said, “Aren’t you being unnecessary fussy?” I said, “Yes,

I value my academic autonomy,

I have already discussed it in the senate and senate has approved it.”

Then he said, “I didn’t have the minutes to the senate with me.”

He said, “You go back and write the minutes to suit your…this thing.”

I said, “No, in two days you will get a...this thing.”

So, I circulated it

and you know all senate members signed it…

all of the senate.

It came back in two days,

in fact, the Secretary told me

“If you of have this kind of cooperation from your senate,

then I won’t question your…this thing…[indistinct].

So I think it’s important that you be watchful;

the Secretary was a very good gentleman,

I won’t…even if I named him it won’t be a this thing,

but I know he was a gentleman,

but he is harassed on many counts,

and he has been told from JEE,

“You’re rejecting a large number of good people,

so you should take them.”

So that was his agenda,

but that can’t be your agenda;

your agenda should be ,”Why should I teach this course?

If it’s interesting who should I take for those course?”

In that way, I discussed already.

So I think it’s important that from time to time, you have to assert.

It’s like the way we do the ritual of closing a gate,

to show them we own the property.

I think it’s similar,

there are some academic gates that you have to close from time to time,

showing people that you are the final authority.

Nobody can tell you what to do.

Yeah, I…I remember your saying that, you know,

“As long as you have good ideas,

they will leave you alone to execute them.”

So only if you don’t have ideas, they will impose their ideas on…

Yeah, the problem is, it’s not that we don’t have ideas; we don’t pursue them.

We don’t put them down in writing,

we don’t crash them out,

some will disappear others will remain,

and then you should carry them forward.

That is how both the Research Park and the NPTEL…

and I think by…because of Research Park and NPTEL,

we had the advantage there…

the Secretary was hesitant to call me,

because he said, “If I call you, you will ask about those files.”

So, Professor Ananth, I think we have come to the end of the 1 hour.

Thank you so much for spending the time this morning,

who knows we may have to do

one more of these to cover all the topics you want to talk about, but…

Yeah let me just stand one last thing that

actually Chuck West told me,

he told our Dean’s Committee in some meeting.

He pointed out that as far as the university is concerned,

the product is not the student; product is education.

He said, “If you brag too much about a student,

then you will have another student who is bad,

who people can throw at you.”

“The fact is that these students come with a certain background,

and you add some value to them.

So what you add by way of value, is education.”

And he said, “You should always remember that

the product is education not the student.”

I think that’s an important point.

He said, “The price of that education is tuition,

but it will never meet the whole cost.”

“It will meet only one third of the cost,

and the rest of the money should come by way of subsidy

from various sources maybe from the government

may be from the industries and so on.”

But, he says, “The guiding principle

is never cut down on expenses that can compromise product quality.

You can instead, constantly strive to find additional sources of funding.”

I think this is very, very important.

You have to keep that in mind all the time.

So you can’t say...if an idea for improving education is a very good one,

you must ensure that you get the money for it,

rather than saying, “I don’t have the money so I won’t do it.”

You can postpone it a bit,

because you don’t have the money,

but you must have a time, target and money.

I think these are somethings that western universities take for granted,

but they have been, you know, for hundreds of years.

But I think we should write it down

and make sure that we practice it.

Anyway, good…thank you very much Nagarajan, once again.

Thank you, Professor Ananth, that was a pleasure as always.

Thank you, thank you very much.

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