An interview with Shri R. Natarajan IAS, First Registrar of IIT Madras by Prof. Ajit Kumar Kolar, Former faculty and alumnus in presence of Shri Kumaran Sathasivam
We are here at the residence of Shri R. Natarajan
IAS, who was the first Registrar of IIT Madras
from 1959 to 1965.
He has graciously consented to a personal interview by me,
Ajit Kolar here and my friend Mr. Kumaran
to discuss about his experience with IIT Madras right
from the time it was instituted in 1959.
Thank you Shri Natarajan for having
accepted to have us here in you residence.
It is an honor for me.
Pleasure and honor for us too.
We have set up a Heritage Centre IIT Madras,
Professor R. Natarajan who was the Director then asked me to
start this work and later under Professor Ananth’s directorship
it was completed.
And when I started collecting information about IIT Madras,
I had some Annual Numbers of those times and albums.
And one person who was there in most of the photographs
of the early albums and who was referred to in many of these articles
was yourself Shri R. Natarajan, the first Registrar of IIT Madras.
That was the gracious Registrar of the IIT.
And I have always been thinking about
meeting personally with you and
getting information about IIT Madras in those days.
And today it has been possible and along with me
Mr. Kumaran who is now on the Advisory Committee
of the Heritage Centre we are here today.
As you know the seed for IIT Madras was sown in
Bonn in July 1956 when Prime Minister Nehru visited Bonn;
he had discussions with President Hayes
at that time and Chancellor Adenauer. Konrad Adenauer.
Yes, that was July 15th, 16th of 1956.
At the end of that visit, they basically agreed that
Germany will help us in setting up an in
Technical Teaching Institute in India.
They call it a Technische Hochschule in German Technische Hochschule in German. Yeah.
So, that was in the report at the end of the visit.
And then the Ruker Mission came in November 1956;
several interactions were there between Indian bureaucrats
educationists and the Germans.
The result of all that was IIT Madras,
the third one in the IIT family
was inaugurated by Professor Humayun Kabir on 31st July 1959
and then the history of IIT Madras really started.
I would like to know at what point in time you came into this picture,
when were you offered the position and how did? I was officer in Madurai,
when I heard it was it was a bolt from the blue.
I had I was organizing settlement
that is introducing ryotwari
in Trichy and Madura districts
and thoroughly enjoying my time there.
I was living in a colonial building,
huge with a garden and all that
and when suddenly my posting orders came
appointing me as the Registrar of the IIT;
I must be frank enough to tell you
that I was shocked more than surprised,
because the IIT is a very a technical affair
and for me to be posted an IAS officer
to at the IIT was a disappointment.
But then when I joined the IIT
and went to that cool cathedral greenery the I bought
above the IIT with all its deer and of course,
not to leave out the monkeys and mongooses. Yeah.
After 15 days I found that it was my
deliverance from routine revenue administration
to do something new, to sit on a campus,
enjoying nature and you could watch your the result of your work
from day to day.
not so in god, will dispose of files and god knows
when the result flows out.
But here in the IIT buildings, academics
and all our efforts in making the IIT
the glorious institution that it is
and Professor Sengupto was the first Director;
he was a very fine personality,
he was a King's Prizeman from Bombay. Ok.
He had won the Kings Medal for Mechanical Engineering
and it was a real pleasure to work with him.
He was a very encouraging type
and he knew the art of delegation to a team.
And once you get into his confidence,
he will leave the whole thing to you.
And we formed a very good trio: Professor Sengupto,
myself and our engineer Y. S. Ramaswamy. Yes.
He came from CPWB again on deputation,
but he came 2 years after I joined. I see.
And everything we were shining in borrowed feathers only,
because our my our office was in the
Central Leather Research Institute. Yes.
The classes were being held in the A. C. College of technology. Yes.
And students were staying in a hostel of the Teachers College,
students staying in a Teachers College hostel. Yeah.
Sir, I believe there were two hostels;
one the one you mentioned in Saidapet Teachers College. Yeah.
Another one in Guindy. Yeah.
Near Guindy Race Course. Right.
We have not been able to identify those places actually;
one was a vegetarian mess,
I am told another was a non-vegetarian mess at time. Non-vegetarian.
And Dr. D. Venkateswaralu was the first- Yeah.
warden of these hostels. Not only that, Dr. Dunduluri Venkateswarlu-
Yes. was the team man,
he was- we appointed him as the President of the Gymkhanas
because he had an excellent rapport with the students.
And I found Dr. Venkateswarlu to be very hard working,
very sweet and student orienting.
So, the students enjoyed Dr. Venkateswarlu's leaderships.
Sengupto and we were
highly impressed with Dr. Venkateswarlu social abilities.
Sir, actually you were basically you were a lawyer,
am I right? No.
Before IAS, you took a law degree at least.
Law degree also, I took my B.A. Honors in History- Sir yeah.
Ok. from Presidency College,
and then the law degree from the Law College.
So, what was, again I am slightly going back.
So, law degree holder,
IAS officer and suddenly coming into a
Institute of Technology to start; so
what kind of thought processes in terms of starting this,
in terms of you were training or information that you got
how to start the IIT? I got some information
fortunately for me, Mr. Chandrakant was there with me for 20 days.
Ok, L. S. Chandrakant. L. S. Chandrakant.
Deputy Educational Advisor from the Government of India. Government of India
and from our local Assistant Advisor
V. R. Reddy. V. R. Reddy. Based in Madras.
He was a IAS officer. No no,
he was a from the ministry. Oh, from the ministry in IIT Madras.
Under he was Deputy Director in Delhi and sent here. I see.
And V. R. Reddy was the state representative- I see.
of the ministry, which was headed then by Mr. G. K. Chandramani.
G. K. Chandramani, yes
his name comes up often.
He was a member of the Board of Governors. Board of Governors.
So, these two personalities also helped you in initial.
On the insuring and then a Professor Sengupto was-
gave me all the background information. Ok.
And so, I at almost a semi technocrat was born in me. Ok.
I caught up with all those things,
especially a history of honors student
coming into violent contact with technology. Yes.
But then started my journey, every day.
We would like to know that sir,
your meeting Professor Sengupto almost for the first time I would guess.
First time. And also Dr. A. L. Mudaliar as the
Vice Chancellor. A. L. Mudaliar it was who had got me to the IIT.
Oh, he was-
After going through the personal file and all that
and Dr. A. L. Mudaliar was already there he was the Chairman. Yes Chairman,
again I would like to mention President Hayes
Chancellor Adenauer and Jawaharlal Nehru,
I call them the First Trinity of IIT Madras- Yes.
for sowing the seeds. Yeah.
And then Dr. A. L. Mudaliar, Professor Sengupto and
yourself as the Second Trinity yeah
of IIT Madras who planned and implemented that idea. Yeah absolutely.
Which was extremely important.
So, what were the first? In fact,
the day I gave the names of Bonn avenue,
Delhi Avenue and Madras Avenue- Ok.
because I told them ours IIT madras
is a tale of three cities. Yes.
Charles Dickens wrote a tale of two cities. Yes.
Ours was a handiwork of three cities;
Bonn, Madras and Delhi. Absolutely.
So, that is why I got those the avenues that those names. ok
So, in connection with that actually I wanted to ask you that,
but you have volunteered to give me that information;
how did this Gajendra Circle and the two elephants come in? It was purely my idea.
Ok. To see I was always fond of Bangalore.
I see. There you see Narasimharaja Circle that circle,
even now you have a Kumble Circle. Yes.
After he took 10 wickets. Yes.
So, I was impressed and I told Professor Sengupto-
and our engineer that we should install two big elephants there. I see.
And call it Gajendra Circle, I coined it. Ok.
Gajendra Circle and it became caught fired immediately. Yes.
The students all were referring to Gajendra Circle.
How were you connected with Bangalore sir?
Nothing special. Ok.
Except that I represented
a Presidency College in the All India
Inter-College Oratorical Debate at Bangalore- I see.
which I visited in the 1946, Ok.
when Bangalore was indeed a pensioners paradise. Yes.
In fact, I had to reach out for a sweater at 5 PM. Ok.
There were no fans; Yeah.
here you have air conditioners also in Bangalore.
At that time Bangalore was called the air conditioned city of India.
Air conditioned city of India
and then I had one advantage;
I was sub-collector under training at Salem,
which was only a 100 miles from Bangalore.
And I could go within 23 kilometers of Bangalore
in our own territory at Hosur.
Hosur yes. At Hosur.
So, on a Saturday or Sunday we could always go on to Bangalore. Very very nice;
how about the names of the hostels,
why were they? As we say I told Professor Sengupto
we must not name them after politicians
because they come and go. Yes.
We must go after something which is perennial
and that is the rivers. Yes.
All civilizations have flourished
only on river banks,
Paris on River Seine. Yes.
Kabul, Kabul was once Kapisha;
Kapisha was the river and in Gandhara.
So, the the river was always the fountainhead of the civilization. Absolutely.
Like Saraswati being the foundation of the Indus Valley Civilization. Yes.
We said we will name the hostels after the rivers, perennial river. Ok
that is- And then the buses were named after the-
Buses were named as a for a sort of a comical interlude,
we named them Kanchenjunga- Kanchenjunga.
because phonetically it was very good, Yeah then Everest.
Yes yes. To remind us of the great Everest.
And Kailash was there. It was a great challenge,
Kailash they were all great challenges to humanity
and the IIT was facing a big challenge; Yeah.
so he wanted to be inspired by Everest
and hilltops Kanchanajunga. Yeah IIT therefore,
IIT Madras was referred to as the place with
static rivers and moving mountains. Yeah.
Actually that was and that was by Professor Eisenhower.
Yes. A grandson of President Eisenhower.
And he was the dean of the Columbia University.
He came to the institute and addressed the students and faculty.
I was there and at the OAT. Yes.
And he said, what whatever you have or
have not at the IIT in Madras,
you can be proud of one thing. Yes.
You are the only place,
where you have stationary rivers and moving mountain. Oh, I see came from him.
You can always be proud of that. Very nice.
Sir, what was the first big challenge you faced when you came in
and started the all the activities? You see
the the costs of construction it iself; Yeah.
this school this at at best it was a temporary arrangement. Yes.
We must convert the forest into an academic institution,
have build and and then there was a shortage of commodities,
for the first year it was cement. I see.
The second year it was steel;
fortunately the the gentleman in charge of steel allotments
was a friend of mine from the IAS.
So, I could always get that extra bit done
by running up to Delhi and meeting him. I see.
And there will be special allotments
of steel inputs steel for our project.
These were the things and the the students;
if one must say that the students were exemplary,
they wanted to be as part of the challenge.
In the first year 120 students were there taken. 120 students.
Taken and interviews were held by two selection committees
formed at that time.
In that connection sir, how was the faculty
recruited right in the beginning, what was the procedure?
The first for the first two years,
the Dr. A. L. Mudaliar was the Chairman of the committee. Yeah.
And we always chose professors for outward from other IIT.
So, that we could have a and a need not have an
insure approach towards selection;
for example, Professor Balgaonkar of the IIT Kharagpur, Yes.
we used to invite him for the interviews on Mechanical Engineering.
He was head of the Department of Mechanical Engineering later. Yeah,
Professor Balgaonkar has always be there;
he will be happy to know who that we held
some of our interviews in Bangalore. I see.
At Dooravani Nagar. Ok, what prompted that?
And that because number one, so many we found that
so many candidates were applying from the
Indian Institute of Science at those places. I see.
And after all Bangladesh, this Bangalore was the hub
in those days. Yes.
The Indian Institute of Science. Yes.
And that was the pride of Bangalore. Yeah.
And so, we felt that so many people came from
in and around Bangalore,
we could as well have it in Bangalore. I see.
And there you will have the pleasure of the climate also helping.
Absolutely. Ok. In those days.
And after that the IIT be- we framed rules of selection,
by which the Director
became the Chairman of the selection committee. I see.
We did not want to trouble Dr. A. L. Mudaliar. Yes.
So, Dr. Professor Sengupto used to preside. Ok.
And then there the Deputy Director will be there, I will be there. Ok.
And the outside- Outside experts.
from Indian Institute of Science or from Kharagpur. Yes.
In fact, the man who manned the birth of this IIT
was a professor from the IIT Kharagpur, Dr. Kraus.
I was about to ask you about him and
how well did you know him and what was his role
in the initial state? He was a representative of
Garvi in Germany and he was asked
to he was already there in the IIT Kharagpur. Kharagpur.
As Professor of Civil Engineering. Civil Engineering. Civil Engineering.
Then he came out to he was asked to coordinate,
well he used to go come to the institute,
the departments were planned
by mutual consultation with the German experts.
And so, we had the whole thing nicely laid out,
there was no problem at all.
Professor Kraus was also- Dr. Koch.
Koch was from Physics Department.
Professor Physics Department. Yeah.
Then there was Dr. Kengan
and then there was Dr. Werner Haugh for
Applied Mechanics. Professor Scheer.
Wolfgang Scheer was for Mechanical Engineering. Mechanical Engineering
and I do not know by that time whether Dr. Rouve had come.
Dr. Rouve, yes have come very much come
and he and Hilda Rouve were our particular friends. I see.
Personally. Ok.
In addition to Professor Nikolaus Klein. Klein,
Professor Klein, yes.
He was very well known to us,
Rouve and he was very well known to us,
he used to come home. I see
And Klein named his two children.
Pradeep his son and Sita his daughter. I see I see,
this is is very interesting.
Profesor Klein also started the Campastimes.
Not in the Campastimes, the students themselves you know- Yeah.
Dr. Venkateswarlu. Yes.
And then I told them that and the the nice way,
you must have a students campus
news to know what you have achieved. Yes.
And what has to be achieved later on. Yeah.
And then for giving them a a talking point in the OAT
or around the Gajendra Circle
to discuss the misused news of the day. Ok,
sir when you were there those five, six years. A six and a half year.
Yes, six and a half year.
Sir you actually you left IIT on 6th April 1965. Yeah.
So, it is all almost 50 years to the day today
today we are 9th, three days back it was 50 years,
I was just going through the books.
One- 6th April 1965,
just before that there was a farewell party for you at that time. Yeah,
it was a very touching party given to me by IIT. Yes.
Dr. Mudaliar was present. Yes.
Sengupto was present. Yes.
The faculty and the students,
it was a very touching moment moment for me;
in fact I quoted the great Black Singer Barbara,
who was given a farewell function
when she said and she was requested to sing one song
from her earlier days,
she said that would be very making me very emotional.
She said of course, like said like this;
I cannot sing the old songs
that I sang a long time ago,
for heart and voice would fill me
and foolish tears would flow.
Sir, what I have read about you
were your command over English language was highly
recognized and respected by everybody. Yeah.
And your articles in the Annual Numbers about cricket. yeah cricket.
And other aspects also.
In fact, my first article was by team to Mars. Mars
with Richie Benaud as the captain. Yeah and then
then I had written about our balmy days at Brisbane. Yes yes.
All it Yeah it carried a an article.
Were you were you playing cricket as a student,
therefore you got very much interested? I used.
Or were you a theoretician? No.
I used to play, I was not very great in cricket;
but I lead the staff team against the students team for 5 years.
Oh, I see ok. I was, I was made the captain.
And we used to beat them. You win.
Because there were three faculty members who were very good. I see.
There was Shobanadrachari a very fast bowler,
then there Kasturi who was related to- no
what was his name, that Physics
he was a relative of the Indian fast bowler
Kasturi Rangan. Kastudi Rangan from Bangalore.
So, he was an off spinner. I see.
We had him Shobanadrachari to open, Ok.
and one or two others who were were who had played college cricket.
So, for I was particularly interested in three
forming a band for the IIT a cricket team and tennis.
And? Tennis.
Tennis, ok.
For we had a wonderful tennis player Lionel Paul. Lionel Paul, yes.
Who was the son of a former Director of the
Madras Engineering College. yes.
His son Lionel Paul, Yes.
who later went to Holland,
he was our champion.
So, as soon as you mentioned the IIT,
in the tennis circles they will say oh
Lionel Paul is a student. Ok.
And who do you think was his main opponent?
I do not know. None other then N. Srinivasan,
the Chairman of the IIT the ICC. Oh I see.
Who was head of the BCCI. Yeah,
N. Srinivasan. A very good tennis player.
I see from from another college in the-
And every match was watched by all of our students,
engineering college students
and at most of the time
Lionel Paul used to beat Srinivasan, who was a very good player.
Sir you were also there. In cricket-
Yes, I am sorry. you were asking me how was I interested in cricket.
Yes. My own nephew was a test player
V. V. Kumar. Oh I see
Vaman Vaman Kumar. Slow leg spin bowler. Yes yes.
In fact, I went for the match between India and Pakistan
and Kumar took 5 wickets in the first innings
and 3 wickets in the second innings. Yes.
He and Desai fast bowler. Ramakant Desai from Bombay.
Yeah. Yeah yeah.
So, our interest is- Ok very nice,
sir during that time, there were no big computers.
No. It came in 1973.
But we read about two small computers.
One German and one from IBM I think. American. America.
What can you give us some information about?
These small setups at that time.
And continuous beyond my camp.
So, because in our computer history we start from there. Yeah.
And finally 1973 only we got the IBM 370. Exactly.
When Professor A. Ramachandran. Yeah.
Sir what kind of memories you have about the visit of
three Germans who came here, one and ex president, President Hayse,
he came in 60.
Then in-office President Professor Luebke came in 62. Yeah.
And a future President Walter Scheel came in 63
and you were here at that time.
Absolutely I received them,
attended of them and they left very happy. Ok.
Dr. Luebke second. Yes.
Then he when the when Hayse
came, and Dr. Hayse came as former president. yes.
Yes. Dr. Hayes and Dr. Walter Scheel
was Economics Minister earlier. yes.
And he came also as visited later on as President.
Yes. In fact, Dr. Walter Scheel when we had all gathered at the
at the guesthouse, Taramani Guesthouse,
and we had our TV staff,
who were who were participating in that shoot, TV shoot.
And we served- I told Professor Sengupto
there is no point in giving them Coca Cola and
and German that those drinks
and- Yes.
And so, then I said what do you think we should give?
We should serve them tender coconut water
in the Yes. make a hole and give that put a straw in. Yes.
And it so fired the imagination of the
of Dr. Walter Scheel and all that, he said
he called the German TV crew and he said
please take photographs as we are drinking Yes.
the tender coconut water.
We have a very nice photograph of that.
This is one of the most valued photographs in my collection. Yeah, yeah.
A very interesting and another photograph where
he is standing near that fork Bonn Avenue and
Delhi Avenue fork we have taken a picture.
So, actually I thought at that time he came to name those two roads,
that is what those two roads;
it was not so obviously, it was already named earlier, yeah. Not at all.
Nothing to do. Yeah that is a
how the photograph that is what I was actually. No,
it was purely a I mean I shouldn't be saying it myself
and that was my concoction. Yes,
sir, how about I heard Professor Rukke when he came,
that was the also almost the inauguration of the OAT. Yeah.
That was the first function. Yeah.
It seems there was a big rain at that time and they had to clean it up. Yes,
what we had to do was,
we had the substitute indoor arrangement also ready. I see.
If the rain came, we wouldn't be handicapped;
but the rain got. Ok.
We did not have the rain.
Oh, you did not have the rain. No and the
stop gap arrangement we did not have to resort. Ok.
also you were there when the
stadium was inaugurated almost the first IIT meted Yeah.
but now Nawab of Pataudi on whom you have written an article.
I. On the. I. He was there.
I invited the Nawab of Pataudi to precide over first inter IIT sports meet,
because he was a good friend of mine. Oh I see.
So, and Pataudi himself became quite a good friend of mine.
Nice. After 3 days stay in our guest house.
Ok. We visited a Hollywood film at his request.
I see. Said Mr. Natarajan let us have a
visit a film and so, we went.
And the a at the end of the three visit as he was winding up his,
he was very happy with the visit.
And I told him, I think you must stay for two more days,
you have a hectic schedule awaiting you and in this
cool cathedral of greenery
and this will be the place to spend.
He said I would have gladly agreed,
but for the fact that your institute guesthouse
butler Gopal will completely
spoil my cricket career if I stay for two more days,
because the food is so good.
Very interesting.
And we chose Gopal personally. Ok.
Professor Sengupto and his friend went through all those
information about them
and then we went through the history and
Gopal was indeed a fine cook. Ok,
sir how about Gerhard Fischer who was the council- Professor Gerhard.
What were your interactions with him? Very very close
with a result; Dr. Gerhard Fischer
who was the Consul General for Germany there- Yes.
used to visit my house for dinner. Ok.
When he was Ambassador to Ireland. Oh ok.
That was the closeness of our association. Very close. Ok.
And then he was a great person in the sense
somehow causes used to excite him;
he will form trusts in Germany and divert those resource,
especially for leprosy patients. Yes.
He did a lot of work,
in fact in a place near my wife's town,
there is Fischer Block. Oh I see.
Which he donated. I see.
It was started by a an engineer,
who who had a paraplegic in an accident. I see.
Then he said I must do something,
I am an engineer who cannot be an engineer. Ok.
So, he opened that and it was a popular institution.
Sir, actually when Heritage Centre was being planned,
I wrote to him requesting him to give me some information.
And he said all the information photographs have handed
them over to the German government,
it may be very difficult to get it.
And I think soon after that he passed away.
No, not soon after that.
Sir 2008 or something. Yes.
That is what when the IIT centre was being planned. Yes.
That was. 2009 around the way,
he used to tell me about his troops to,
he died in Norway. I see he went there.
Sir, can you tell us a little bit more about Professor Sengupto?
We do not have much information about him, he is-
Professor Sengupto was a very good Mechanical Engineer,
he was King's Prize winner in Mechanical Engineering
and he was the Principal of VTI
Victoria Technical Institute of Bombay's, Yes.
which benefit benefited greatly from his rich experience.
And so, the Government of India rightly thought
that Professor Sengupto should head the IIT Madras;
remembering that Sudi Ranjan Sengupto,
not a relation of his was already the
Director of the IIT. IISc Bangalore.
Kharagpur. Oh I am sorry Kharahpur, ok.
Kharagpur. Sudi Ranjan.
And Brigadier Bose was the third of the Bengals of Bombay. S. K. Bose. Yes
Professor Brigadier Bose was the Director of IIT Kharagpur,
when I went there as a postgraduate student in 1969. In Bombay.
No, he was an in IIT Kharagpur.
IIT Kharagpur. He is from there he came.
Sir how about Mrs. Shanthi the-
Mrs. Shanthi. the first lady of the campus.
Mrs. Shanthi was a gift to us,
because as the first lady of the campus, Yeah.
she was very social,
she did not have any airs about her
and she was a particularly good friend of my wife. Ok.
They used to get along famously Shanthi Sengupto;
in fact years after years retired from the IIT,
Shanthi Sengupto and Professor Sengupto
wanted to go to the Thirupati temple.
So, I said no problem at all, come over
and we took them- I see.
to Thirupati and then after prayers and all that,
I told them on one condition
we must, you must visit and stay in my wife's place,
because Kutralam is there. Kutralam.
Waterfalls and Shenkottai is only 3 miles from. Ok.
So, that balmy climate we have at Shenkottai
and of course it was very- he knew it after having
spent 5 and half years with me,
that he could not look forward to a fish meal,
because we were pure vegetarian. Ok.
And with this connection I want to
relate to you a very funny situation. Yes.
When I visited the IIT Kharagpur,
he asked me what will you have?
I said any vegetarian meal,
I can give you the best of fish, freshwater fish.
Then I told him I can't take fish,
but he said I am a Brahmin,
I take fish that is the custom there. Yes.
But we I can not take fish.
So, when he came to Madras,
I took him to Quality Restaurant- Ok.
which was the very good place and then I asked him
and I had not known that fine distinction,
because when I asked him you must have tandoori chicken
which is the best that you can have they say.
So, you must have tandoori chicken.
He said sir I am a Brahmin, I cannot take chicken. Ok.
Then I told him you were taking fish there.
So, I thought you take it no problem.
I think they are called Matsya Brahmanas. Yes.
They are entitled to- Matsya.
Because which-
They are allowed. Other.
And in fact, you will be surprised to know
that in Bihari thread ceremony,
they have to serve a meat. I see.
Bihari. Yeah local custom tradition.
I knew because,
he was my sister’s tenant. Ok.
So, he invited all for every thing was vegetarian, but this
he then he told me this is not for you. Ok.
But then it is a custom here for the Bihari.
Sir when you joined then,
where you staying; there were no buildings yet,
they started coming up later BSB first came up,
then the quarters? I had my own bunglow,
my 11 grounds bungalow built by my father 30 years earlier.
Where was it? On the Royapettah High Road.
I see. Where you now have 3,
3 level grounds I see, they have this
Murali Nursing Home, Ok.
Bank of Baroda and Mali Motors. Ok.
Nice green place.
So, all all during your entire tenure you were only living there,
you did not come into the campus at all?
I did not come in come to the campus, because there was no need. Ok,
how about Professor Sengupto and others?
And if I take a place, I will be depriving somebody of a place. Ok
and you were driving your black Fiat.
Originally blue Fiat and
then the black Fiat and then the Ambassador,
but I always had a driver. Ok
the very- I would not drive.
You. The IIT gave me a driver.
Oh I see. But in government, they gave both the driver and the car.
Ok as an IAS officer.
And and yeah at the IIT, I had my car with an IIT driver.
Sir in that connection can I ask you,
what do you think looking back and now what is happening?
IITs should they have or what are the advantages of having an IAS
trained person as a Registrar or head of the administration unit?
Are there any specific advantages?
Kindly repeat the question.
In IIT Madras and many other IITs, Registrars
as administrative heads are not necessarily IAS officers. No no.
But do you think you are the first IAS officer, first Registrar;
so there were certain advantages or?
I think it was many advantageous not only to the IIT,
but also to me. To you also.
It expanded my mental horizon. Ok.
And as far as administration was concerned,
recruiting the best personnel and all that.
And my previous administrative experience, I hope
was was a great advantage to the IIT.
After you Mr. C. V. Sethunathan came. Was there for one year.
As the Registrar. And then he was transferred to some other duties.
Oh I see he did not continue.
He did not continue as Registrar,
I think he was there for one and a half years. Oh I see.
And then he was shifted.
Sir there are several articles in our Annual Numbers,
you have been you were very popular with
almost everybody in the campus.
So, they said you are very popular especially with the students,
you had a great sense of humor
and felicity with your English language, the command over the language,
this is how you are described I mean, youthful appearance,
shock up hair, boyish smile,
a bridge between head of the institution
and the other working elements of the institute,
of course you also coined that sentence IITM is a tale of three cities.
So, how did this happen that,
what according to you what qualities characteristics of yours
made you so popular among all the sections of the institute?
You see all this is a compound result. Yeah.
You see they judge you by your intentions and actions.
Yes. I got I was only 30. Yes.
So, I got into this spirit of things
and I garnered a lot of experience in administration.
See so it was easy for me to glide into
and I am a basically a happy person. Ok.
So, it reflected its self in my relations with the teacher,
the faculty, with the students;
in fact I would when I wanted them to- if the students ask me,
how should we name our first band,
I suggested Rhythm Rascals.
Rhythm rascals. Rhythm rascals,
but finally, then we decided later on we would not have that. Ok,
actually sir here in one of the introductions to you it says,
Mr. Natarajan’s popularity can be gauged
from the fact that he is almost triumphantly carried
on the shoulders of the students,
who have nothing to gain from him from the point of view of
periodicals or leave,
whenever he comes into the institute, this is the kind of
admiration respect love that students- Love.
that students had. Because they knew that I was a
I was for them, I was for the faculty,
I was for the students and I had a great association with
Professor Sengupto and engineering staff;
because ultimately you have to be transparent. Yes.
You have to be transparent in your actions and
I wanted to do the best for all of them.
You see it is only anything can be achieved in life with kindness,
detachment and giving.
Absolutely. And take a positive approach. Yes,
you have done that in abundance, therefore you were remembered
Yeah. by those students and we always remember you
after going through- You see even now you will always come,
invite me and all that. Yes that,
in fact Mr. Kumaran wanted that thing,
even after retired you have had
continuous association with IIT Madras. Exactly that I came
from Shenkottai to preside over the hostel day. Ok.
At Cauvery I had arrived in the morning,
just for this and I was invited to preside over the
Cauvery Hostel day and then I told them,
what is the difference between Einstein
and another famous politician here. Ok.
What is the difference?
Then then I told them myself,
to Einstein everything was relative,
but for this politician for relatives were everything.
They had a hearty laugh. Very nice you have putting it.
Ok, go ahead.
Welcome to. Because I have some more.
I really like know what were your most
cherished memories of IITs,
because I know you enjoyed your tenure.
I completely enjoyed.
Anything specific you tell. There was some funny instances.
Yes. One example, in the at the dinner Dr. Koch
from the IIT had joined as the Professor of Physics about Yes.
8 months earlier,
there was a dinner at the IIT
and there was a Assistant Professor Ram Mohan Rao,
who was an Andhra gentleman,
who used to give me always every year
that royal rajahmundry avakai pickle. Ok.
Before which even a Napoleon will quail.
So, for not that dinner must be on a small thing that red thing.
Koch asked me what is it that you are going to have,
but you are not giving me,
said I am doing it wantedly,
because that will set you on fire. Yes.
It is too hot. Yes.
You can not manage it.
He said what an Indian can manage,
cannot a German manage too? Ok.
Then would you like to, seriously would you like to test it?
I gave it to him, he took it;
he is very fair person you know
and his eye had big eyes,
the whole him became a definition of redness.
He could not spit it out or send it in.
To be very embarrassed. Red and all that,
then I doused it you;
say take that gave him ice water
and then I hope I told him,
you have another 4 years to go,
never go near that.
He was the first.
Very funny moments with them. First time.
And a Dr. was Dr. Werner Haug that Applies Mechanics man,
he he was a always a grumpy individual,
unlike Nicholas Klein or Koch. Koch. Or Dr. Haan,
he he would everything no no this is not good,
that is not good you know in Germany;
this would be I had visited Germany thrice,
I knew what Germany was.
And I told him that is why you are here.
Why are you being sent to the India by
the German government? Government.
To help us in setting up a nice place.
And so, there are some differences here,
that is why we had invited you over.
One of it is this Haug met me
and told me,
your your sanction has not come from the Indian Government
as, so there is been extraordinary delay,
this will never happen in a place like Germany.
I told him I am not that sure, because governments are governments,
governments and- usually they take a longer time
and others in doing the same thing.
And to me I suppose I mean no offence when I tell you
that, your government also must be
having occasions when they have delayed.
No no no it will never happen in Germany.
Then after a month and half,
he came to me with proposals for that
Applied Mechanics Laboratory
and he said I want to discuss it with the Professor Sengupto.
So, when do we meet?
I asked him,
you have not been accredited to the IIT Madras.
I see. You see your term,
you have already extended your term of deputation by a month.
So, I will be talking only as Mr. Natarajan
to Dr. Werner Haug,
because your accreditation has not come.
And you said the German government
was the paragon of virtue and good grace,
this is with regard to your accreditation itself.
I can't deal with you.
Then he say yes I agree that all governments delay.
Sir overall how was this German professors who came with their families,
how did they integrate into?
They were very good, there was not too much of reaction,
but we had our funny moments,
for example, Ebert. Yeah yeah
Who set up the workshop? Who set up the workshop,
we had attended a party
given by the German Consul General.
Ebert was there, that was a very affable
person along with Ebert, Hassenbein.
Willi Hassenbein. Hassenbein. Yes.
Then Heinz Sohre.
And Ebert and I we have gone for and for the party.
Of course how can we expect the German party
without the whiskey flowing all the time. Yes.
And Ebert was with me,
then I used to take orange juice first,
then after some time,
because the dinner will be at 10:30 or later. Yes.
Because they were binging.
And I was killing my appetite,
because after half an hour with them I will be taking pineapple
juice and another half an hour later another a grape juice.
So, it was yeah it was really, I was I knew I was getting into trouble.
And Ebert was going on merrily,
all the people German professors and all.
And then I excused myself from the dinner,
because you have already tit bits cheese
things and all. Even now the same- Cutlets.
So, I told Fischer
I already had my dinner,
it was a wonderful party.
So, I must have your permission,
he said certainly and then the next day
a bleary eyed Ebert came into my room.
I said- asked Ebert straightaway
when did you return home?
Yeah that the question is not phrased properly sir,
you must ask me when was I returned home.
I did't return home,
I was returned home.
Such was the binge. Ok.
It was fun, Dr. Wolfgang Scheer. Scheer.
He they all thought he was queer.
Scheer was queer.
No, he was a very warm person.
Ok, we had occasion to interview him
when he came for the golden jubilee and also Mr. Ebert.
He married again, Ethiopian wife. I see.
[Inaudible]
Sir, how about Mr. C. Subramaniam?
We understand from what we have said probably,
when the question of starting the IIT came up,
first of all where north, south, east, west was one thing.
Kamaraj. Then it was south,
then Madras and then Kamaraj.
So, what we have read is that Mr. C. Subramaniam
and may be Professor Mr. R. Venkataraman
they kind of filled up with Mr. Kamaraj. No no no no.
And said it is a good idea, we should get into IIT Madras. C. Subramaniam
was more involved with it. Yeah.
And he used to be guide,
he was the Education Minister. Yes.
Venkataraman was industry.
He was not in the position. Subramanian,
Subramanian was a very dynamic minister,
he was always thinking of the country
and the state and what he can do,
even after retirement. Yes.
I knew him personally. Yes.
And C. Subramaniam worked actively
and Dr. Mudaliar. Mudaliar.
And Mudaliar had got good connections with government,
incidentally how was the IIT Kharagpur born?
Yes sir, please let us know what is your,
what is your information on that.
Because Dr. B. C. Roy the Chief Minister of West Bengal
was very close to Pandit Nehru. Yes.
And soon as the Sarkar Committee report and all that was accepted,
he met the met Prime Minister Nehru
and told him Kharagpur must having the first priority.
So, he said it shall be there, it was Kharagpur.
And IIT we took we were the quickest in reaction,
we set 640 acres are there. yes sir yes sir
We were quicker than the others who were all going about- Yes.
looking for land and all that,
but IIT say here is the place.
Was there some kind of opposition in Madras
either government circles or civil society about having IIT
in this beautiful wooded area,
was was there? There was no objection at all.
Because they were being disturbed, their flora and fauna
would be disturbed. No, it was a it was a detached from the Raj Bhavan.
It was not any public land of found reserve forest area,
it was part of forest attached to the Raj Bhavan.
Yeah. So, there was not that objection,
then the IIT was a big bonus to Madras. Yes.
Yes. But there was not any objection.
Because what we did is some other cities in South India were trying,
as you said Mr. Kamaraj was the first one to offer.
Now, as you know Karnataka is going to have an IIT this year,
now. Yeah.
So, 60 years back we were we understand that somehow in Bangalore
they did not want IIT, because IISc was there.
Indian yeah IISc was there.
Now, they are planning one for Karnataka. And then Delhi got it.
Yes Delhi got it.
Sir this is sir there there were this Annual Numbers,
every year this were and your articles appeared.
So, I just wanted to show you, do you.
This was the farewell. Yes.
So, I just thought I do not know
whether you have those photographs with you.
I do not have that,
but you have given me the Campaschimes. Yeah Campaschimes.
Yes, yes, yes.
In the next page also there are couple of photographs.
Yes. And think in fact your speech your speech also is there called
A Garland of Memories.
So, I just thought I would show it to you
and ask you how how do you feel about now when you are-
this almost 50 years back,
I think your farewell was on the last week of March I think. Yeah.
And there you said in the next few days
I do not know how I go back to my, you know-
I can not get it back into my office,
I will be a visitor here rather than occupying chair.
That was very very touching memory that actually.
Also here is
so, about you in these two consecutive Numbers,
there are references to you.
This is actually the the gift is handed over to my daughter Priya.
That is oh yeah- The Child.
And I had my first child born when I was in IIT. Ok,
very nice, one minute.
Sampath, Professor Krishna Murthy, engineer-
Yes sir there are many photographs with you;
see this is Nawab Nawab of Pataudi inaugurating.
Yes. And actually I would like to;
if you do not mind, I will take this. Yeah.
What happened to that?
Sir would you tell us about the first convocation,
you were there at that time, Professor Radhakrishnan.
That was the first batch of students who were graduating,
so how how was the atmosphere, how were the ambience
how were you involved?
The atmosphere was very serious since then.
There were sombre thing on the first convocation ever.
And so, there was a certain mystical element about it
and it went through very efficiently without a hitch,
because Professor Sengupto and I
had been in IIT Kharagpur
to watch a convocation. I see.
So, we came fully fortified.
With the purpose of finding how this is done. How it is done.
2 years earlier.
Yes sir. And we then interacted with the Russian professors there,
the actual mechanics of the convocation.
So, we were not daunted.
And here was a president, philosopher, statesman. Great.
Obviously, sir you are also at the time of inauguration when you here?
You joined in June of 1959. Of course,
I will right there. So, where was it actually held?
That was held in a shamiyana.
In CLRI. Not in the CLRI,
in the campus. In the campus itself.
Unfortunately we do not have photographs of that also.
But you have got that foundation stone. Foundation stone we have,
so you had already joined in June of 59?
I joined in July 59. July ok.
So, the hostels were inaugurated by L. S. Chandrakanth on 28th.
Classes started on 22nd July. Yeah.
In A.C. College of Technology. A.C. College.
But the offices were in CLRI. And also in the Highways Research.
Highways Research also. Also.
And then the inauguartion was actually on 31st July 19-
I was very much there.
And Professor Humayun Kabir. Humayun Kabir.
For reasons best known to him,
he would always stay at the Hotel Oceanic.
Oh Santhome High Road. Santhome. Ok,
Professor Humayun Kabir actually is
later later related to George Fernandez.
His daughter married George Fernandez. Yeah I think so.
I do not know. Like of man this.
We do not have much information of especially
photographs of the inauguration,
so I was just wondering how that was.
Yes, by in large we have tried to cover,
here the first convocation.
Second convocation you were there and
immediately after that you,
it was third April 1960, M. C. Chagla.
Yeah. And I think you left on 6th April.
So, you participated in. Second of convocation. Second convocation also.
Very nice sir.
Sir since retirement, so what have you been doing,
how are you otherwise engaged?
I have been, I have been member of several boards
of institutions and then I live like there is no
Rotary Club or Lions Club which I have not visited, ok.
They I used to go there
and the member of the Board of Directors for two institutions
and then my three of my grand children are here.
I see. My daughter was in the USA for 18 years,
I made her come down here. Oh I see.
They built a house, rise house there and
so, nothing great,
no stronger sense of happiness
than being with your grand children.
In fact, I told my daughter and son-in-law
they may be your children,
but the priority always goes to the grand parents.
Absolutely. So, you must shift from the USA and come here.
Sir now you look back, you have
you you made made the beginnings for IIT Madras for 6 years;
almost most of the infrastructure was developed at that time.
Sharawati sorry Sarayu had not come up,
it came up slightly- slightly later. Which?
The ladies hostel.
That Mandakini. 60s no sir, I think Mandakini-
Professor Mandakini was the hostel for the first year students.
Sarayu was the girl’s hostel.
And there were very few girl students in the beginning
so, yeah maybe they came from outside.
And later the Sarayu hostel started.
So, the post office was there,
the bank everything was done by almost by the time tenural. Bank everything we have introduced.
the faculty had moved in. Not only that,
I had requested Reverend Father Murphy.
And told him I want your help for starting the Vanavani School. Ok.
So, Father Murphy very kindly-
Excuse me who was Father Murphy at that time?
He was at Professor of Loyola of college. I see.
And later professor or principle of Loyola for instance.
He taught French.
He though French at Loyola.
No, you mean French language. Yes.
He taught French.
He no, he taught English.
English. Yeah.
He was an Irish. I see.
Who taught the English Father Murphy. Right.
And there were many french men too,
there was Father Sauliere,
there was Father [inaudible].
In the Loyola College. And in Loyola College
and that well known mathematician
he was there and I studied in Loyola College for the intern.
I see. I stayed at the Loyola hostel. Ok.
Done my intermediate examination.
So, I knew all this to Father Murphy and all that,
and I had this I must say,
I had stood first in our history
and so Father D'Souza and Murphy said
why should you leave Loyola,
you can take up economics honors.
Then I said no, because we by I have put our heads together
and said the balance of advantage for writing the IAS examination
is with the history honors.
Oh you have already decided you will go for IAS?
Then go for IAS,
but that was the Holy Grail in those days. I see.
And in fact, we have got some doctors in the IAS,
so many engineers in the IAS.
Sir now in the past few years, IITians are also going IAS. IITians are going into-
You think that is a good thing.
That is a I will call it a waste.
Waste of talent,
because you have denied some person a seat in the medical college
and then you joined the IAS,
you have deprived the person of a seat.
He would have at least been an engineer or a doctor.
Ok, I am sorry continue you are saying something.
So, like this I do not subscribe to.
Well, ok. Yeah.
Anything more about the Vana Vani you were mentioning?
Yeah and he was Dr. Father Murphy was very helpful;
he went around and then we had the Vana Vani School started
and he got the first headmistress too.
And she was very dedicated to the work
and the Vanavani is almost as famous as the IIT now.
By association. Yes right.
Sir, so now, you look back what do you think,
what is your perception
about IIT Madras in particular, the IIT system,
have they achieved their goal?
Certainly, otherwise you won't be having
institutes splitting up as if by magic.
See if if it was a bad concept,
it would have gone, disappeared.
But now there is a clamour for IITs for all over,
Narendra Modi our prime minister is very particular.
More IITs. And you remember our first Prime Minister Nehru said
that, we have had enough and more of tempos,
the new tempo should be higher education institutions. Education.
And science.
So, we want more and more of the IITs,
but the trouble, the point is we should concentrate
more on the application. Absolutely.
It is a Indians as such a very theoretical view. Yes.
Some of the best concepts;
when we have no computers and all that,
we found out,
we discovered zero. Zero.
And then the Arabs took credit for it,
because they came for trade here. Yes.
Learn the zero and passed on as if it was theirs. Yes.
So, ours says always been a little theoretical
and that way this IIT
has become a very good place
for the engineer, for our engineers.
And our engineers from the IITs have won their spot in USA.
I know one multi millionaire
there in New York was an IIT student,
he got a patent for something and
so, these innovation and invention
I don't know the same Indian students are going to the US,
it is this atmosphere. Atmosphere system and the-
System and Ph.D. thesis are plagiarized,
the there the Ph.D. degree is a set of holiness.
IITs of course are still at the most
looked up to institutions in the country. No doubt.
Where the it is very well accepted the
highest quality of education, technical in the country,
more and more IITs are coming up.
It is a way of life, it is major technical institution.
Some people have expressed,
very similar to what you said theoretical things.
So, they were called IITs technology, not science
because they expected them to develop technology possibly.
But as you said rightly
lot of theatrical work is going on and also some applied.
So, there was a suggestion one point in time
that they should be named as Indian Institute of
Engineering Sciences.
Not a very serious session just just-
That was a an interview with Shri Natarajan our first registrar.
He has given us glimpses of his experience
from those times right from the
day he came into IIT Madras as the Registrar here,
a young IAS officer at that time.
And he was there for 6 and a half years;
he left IIT Madras on 6th April 1965,
after a glorious service to the institute
along with the Chairman Board of Governors Professor A. L. Mudaliar,
first Director Professor Sengupto,
he planned the entire campus
and saw to it that majority of the work
was implemented by the time he left.
The- most of the hostels were built,
the departments were built, laboratories had started.
The teachers quarters had been built,
schools had started, roads were laid of course,
they were named as he said Bonn and
Delhi and Madras the tale of three cities as he talks about it,
the Gajendra Circle had come into existence,
the hostels had were there, the bank, the post office.
So, the entire infrastructure that was needed to
start this great institution was in place by the time he left.
And the students and the faculty and the staff of IIT Madras
would ever be grateful to him
for all that he has done to the institute.
It was not a very easy job to start a institute of
what everybody thought of is going to be
of great national and international importance,
which has come true today.
These were all the approach of this trio,
the second trinity as we like to call
and in which Shri Natarajan played a very significant role.
And myself Ajith Kolar and my colleague
Mr. Kumaran, we would like to place on record our
deep sense of appreciation and thanks to Shri Natarajan for this.
Thank you.
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Digital
Material
Prof. S. Srinivasan in conversation with Prof. C.Vijayan and Ms Gayathri R.
We have with us today Professor S. Srinivasan,
Professor Subramanian Srinivasan,
who retired from the Physics Department a couple of years back.
I was a student here, at that time of the MSc programme
that was something like 35, 40 years back
and one thing which the students were very much interested is that,
there were several people by name Srinivasan
and we had other professors also by name Srinivasan
apart from staff members and others.
So, we used to call him S. Srinivasan, Professor S. Srinivasan.
Professor Srinivasan had a very successful career in our department,
Department of Physics, IIT Madras.
But... his personality is very interesting;
he has many other activities which are highly intellectual
which we will get into later.
So, we would like to start with
how... start with how Professor Srinivasan
came here and what was the situation at that time,
from there we will take over.
So, sir, I would like you to tell us
how you happened to come here.
Yes, yes, yes. And, how was -
what was the motivation and how you... Yes, I will tell you,
see I passed out of
Presidency College, Madras
in 1957 with a
B.Sc. honours degree,
that B.Sc. honours was a 3-year course after
... After school there used to be something called Intermediate in
Arts and Science.
Equivalent to the pre-degree. Equivalent to the pre-degree.
And that course is a 3-year course with only 1 attempt.
If you - either it is, it was binary, either you get the degree
or you get back to the ground level.
Something - it was - actually Indian education
was patterned on the London University.
We were all following that pattern
and in that, this particular course. And it became extinct
some 3 years after I
completed the course.
They switched over to the system of a school
and undergraduate degree and then postgraduate degree,
what is called our graduate degrees in US now;
that is - the - you get a Master’s degree.
So, I got a job and immediately joined it,
it was a job connected with Science of course,
but it was not a scientific job.
So, in the sense I was with the Government of India,
they...there was something called the
Ministry of Scientific Research and Cultural Affairs,
under which this IIT scheme came, that is what they were they saying.
I joined as a senior technical assistant there
and to the same post I came here with my own degree,
they ... first to the Physics Department Physics Department.
Department.
There the ladder would have been different,
within ... I was to become an assistant education officer, technical.
At that time I just decided; somebody said
the one person who was ... my senior,
that is, who was a very senior person
and he started this IIT actually.
He said there you will get some salary and all that,
here you will get
something of Lakshmi and also a lot of Saraswati that is what he said;
why don’t you join?
They are supposed to be mutually exclusive.
So, I joined here
and only when I had to register for Ph.D.,
they told me that my
degree is not sufficient,
you will have to
do 1 year, 1 more year I think.
So, they gave me what I - they felt was a concession - what
I felt was a burden,
in the sense I had to take all the examinations
that is the thing.
I took all the examinations. Of the -?
Yes, yes, here. MSc programme?
Yes, in IIT.
So, my MSc was technically from the IIT Madras
and in the first convocation
I got my MSc degree.
The senate passed a resolution saying that they are
kind enough to permit me to do this
and the kindness was from their side, but I did it.
Some of the things I had not - subjects
they had - even in that short span of a few years when
India was not advancing its science curriculum,
even then it was different.
So, here it was different,
the ... we never had a paper called Quantum Mechanics,
Classical Mechanics 1,
2, like this and all those things.
But it was not a burden because the
teaching load; there are practically no teaching
load only a teaching assistant load,
that’s the thing, they were doing.
We had to take tutorial classes,
only one person used to take the classes
when I joined, that is the ... Professor Koch, you may see.
He was the German professor
and his Physics was very good,
but we had difficulty in understanding his English.
But he felt the other way- that is, he had learnt
English from - by listening to BBC radio and so his accent,
everything, his expressions used to be correct,
have, ought to be correct;
of course, he was okay.
The one thing is when it comes to speaking,
he used to speak Germanized English - that is, in
German, you know, we must all have ...
you know, undergone this, some German language courses.
The verb comes always in this second place
and English is a flexible language,
it was not German - is not that flexible.
So, he used to correct our English
that is what I am telling.
All of us were subject to it including Professor
Ramasastry who was heading the department
he was fairly good at writing English,
but this is the thing.
So, we had to prepare tutorial questions.
For which class, sir?
That time what - which classes were you teaching, B.Tech. or - I guess
... everyone, there was only -
when I joined, M.Sc. was not there Right.
M.Sc. was started only later,
when you joined, M.Sc. came?
[Prof. C. S. Swamy, offscreen:]'62, '62. '62.
So, '62 was the first batch for ... M.Sc. And year - joining
year of joining - Eh? Year of joining the institute
Where? You were, you were
1960 end, sometime in the end I joined, ok.
I remember it was a Saturday,
Saturday was a working day.
So, you were doing tutorials for the B.Tech. students. B.Tech.
all people... everyone including the
Head of the Department was only doing tutorial classes.
Only, the German system was
one professor used to take the lecture.
There, system was like that
and all others including the people who
later became Nobel laureates in Germany,
they were called [inaudible] or something, they will-
even they had to attend the classes
and then help the students.
But...that was...implemented properly
that’s a very good system because we learnt a lot.
So, we - they didn’t - there was no -
he used to...he used to take only
4 hours per week, lectures, and - and
he used to demonstrate experiments.
Oh, he himself used to do that. Yes, yes.
and we got a very good set of demonstration experiments
which was designed and built by
his own Professor Robert Pohl,
P-O-H-L, Pohl.
He was a great teacher and when the...
one job which we had to do, all of us had to do...
some 3 or 4 of us were there,
Professor Ramasastry was the Head of the Department,
he was an assistant professor and Head of the Department.
Dr. Ramanamurthi and
Dr. Sivaramakrishnan- they were lecturers.
There was one [inaudible] Khadkikar
who stayed for some time and left.
He was also a lecturer,
he had an M.Tech. in...this one,
Technical Physics from Kharagpur IIT.
Then the other people who later rose to
great fame starting with
his professor, Professor Y. V. G. S. Murthi,
then Professor Bheema Shankara Shastry,
Professor B. S. V. Gopalam and I had joined,
that is, we were the 4.
We were the junior-most,
we were 20,
22, like that maximum ages
only Bheema Shankara Shastry was a little older because
he had served for some time in some college
for 2 or 3 years and then came here.
So, our job was to prepare a lot of numerical examples.
In the subjects that Professor Koch taught.
He would teach,
he would demonstrate the experiments,
the fundamentals should be strong.
The experiments should be - they are all classic,
really, it - it was a actually for - it was an
experience for us and even if we have to
pay for it, it was worth doing.
So, at that time all this...he brought some 2 or 3
other things came by this thing - ship.
So, our job was besides all those things
to open out all those things,
then take stock, assemble the apparatus,
do the experiments according to the instructions,
some of them would be only in German.
So...Professor Koch used to translate it for us,
but we also had...that is, we were kept...
engaged throughout. When we don’t have classes,
evening there used to be some German
classes were held by the one Dr. Klein,
he is - he's also there.
He was the Head of the Humanities Department
that is, the German counterpart of
Humanities Department.
He was...he had a Ph.D. in Sanskrit. Ok.
But he was teaching German,
he was [inaudible] in Sanskrit from Bonn University in his country.
And, for about 150-200 years
before we joined, that is, in 1800s,
the German Universities had Sanskrit Departments
and they were having Sanskrit research
at that time. Then he - he used to take
classes for elementary German,
that German for foreigners
deutsche sprachlehre für ausländer, that is, German language for foreigners.
So, we studied that and we also took examinations
with the Max Mueller Bhavan here
and got some diploma certificates.
So, we had some smattering of German.
So, those days - I mean, most of the
professors of IIT were Germans?
All. All. All the professors in the first batch
for the first batch, the lectures were taken by the Germans,
that was the...this is - this was called Technische
Hochschule that is Technical University in their terminology.
[Inaudible] ...system,
this was corresponding, it was a Technische Hochschule Madras;
it was this city was called Madras at that time
Madras...Indian like this.
There, the system - German system was followed.
So, some of the people who joined here
they were sent to training for [inaudible] to Germany,
they were, that was in the engineering departments.
One such one, metallurgy
professor - Professor Vasudevan and Parameshwaran,
some of those people they went to...straight away
recruited and then put by boat to Germany.
So, they came back later after
getting trained and they came back.
And, for the Science Departments they did not want
such a training and this gentleman was available,
they...that was the situation.
How many departments were there during
Yes, I will tell you all the departments I can list.
All the department which we have now-
Yes, yes the department is
this size one department would be there
that is all that is the space available for one department.
The staff would sit,
The Head would sit at one corner,
the other the - all the others, the
underlings would sit around
somewhere at a respectable distance,
a small curtain would separate.
Where was the main building, was it
This one?
Main building was at that time
you are - you know the Civil Engineering building. Yeah.
BSB BSB.
Building Sciences Block,
it was called. That BSB.
That was the only- Only
Only building, not- Building but
it has no 2 floors,
it had ground floor and 1st floor
that was all built.
So, the remaining was - And, and - and when
when it is raining of course,
it was under construction, also.
So, you will find
all those...iron rods bringing out
and people working there.
So, you have to go and wade your way and go like that.
So, the remaining campus was like
forest -? No, everything else - everything was only
actually they were all kept to lintel level
something would have come.
Some [inaudible] this thing
and there were 2 hostels.
One was completely ready
that was called the Cauvery hostel,
Then there was another one called Krishna hostel.
They - we were - we - the institute used to
start at 7:30 in the morning,
at 7 o’ clock there would be a - small jeep would
leave; 2 trips or 3 trips they would make. Ok.
And in that if you find your...definitely you
have to be present here at 7:30
and afterwards you can go and
have breakfast in the hostel.
So, they would deduct from our -this one- wages,
a monthly salary
I think ... food used to be very good.
Very healthy and all those things; then
lunch also we take there,
lunch also used to be good,
that went that went on for 2 to 3 years,
even you might have taken lunch here.
So, that was the life at that time.
So, you won’t starve and later there was a canteen
which was started in a - a sort of a temporary structure
on the - in between what is now the...what is it,
Materials Centre and the Civil Engineering
that is BSB. In between that place,
I think even now we can find the ruins
of that. That’s my feeling, ok,
that one. I - I can check.
Sir, how did people come to the campus from outside?
Come to the campus - they have to come to the gate.
Somehow gate.
In Adyar, after 6 o’ clock in the evening.
The nearest bus stand is the Adyar bus stand,
where near the grand snacks and those things, that one.
You have to walk to that.
And you can walk on the road without any... Safe.
No vehicle would come.
You can walk,
it was very - this one - silent nothing.
People would have use cycles or anything?
Cycles. Cycles.
Bicycles, the local those who live in Adyar,
they used to do it.
One...some people, that some people took
there is an apartments near what is now the cancer hospital;
at that place some very thoughtful person
by name Guntur Narasimha Rao.
Had built a small apartments
meant for 1 bedroom,
1 kitchen and - this thing - bath attached, everything,
probably anticipated IIT.
He might have anticipated only
cancer institute at that time.
So, he had built.
That was there at the time?
Cancer Institute? That was there.
So, some people used to...this one...rent that. And also,
the rent was not much in that area at that time.
I remember very well one ground floor
part of a bungalow, our floor - Professor Ramasastry
was living near there in [?],
he was paying only 110 rupees or so rent.
Of course,
the salary of an assistant professor was
700 rupees at that time,
that he would used to get some subsidy from
the institute as rent allowance.
So, 100 rupees, 110 like that,
only problem at that time was schooling of children
for them. That was the thing.
Those who were not married, problem was not there.
So, this is - life was like this.
And there were one or two
that is, people who had entered at the professor,
professor's level they had either a house in Chennai,
Madras at that time, by some chance
or they could put their children in schools,
their schools in Adyar;
they used to put their children in.
So, there were no college-going children
for a anyone at that time
to to my memory.
If it there there was no problem;
colleges were there and there was no problem.
So that was the personal life,
when one is in the campus when you get
some guests in order to
entertain them with a tea or something,
this canteen was serving the purpose.
It was okay;
it was monitored by
by the professor of English,
he was also the principal of...
he was retired as the principal of a college
Pachaiyappa's college principal Professor R. Krishnamurthy,
he was...he used to monitor the quality.
And...the advantage for the people who
open a restaurant here is they get free electricity.
Free, this thing, For encouraging
free water.
So, the rate could be would be less for this,
it was subsidized and the quality
used to be maintained for quite a long time.
There was no problem.
The photo which we are showing
maybe just taken along around-
-That time Yes. Actually,
activities as far as the activities were concerned,
the tennis court and other things came
only after the houses came.
Because unless the...there are people to People started living here.
stay here and...they came later.
Things were well planned of course.
Then the staff club, came along with the staff quarters
right. and announced...the main activity of
staff in the staff club used to be
this one, training for bridge and...others. Bridge
used to be very popular
[Inaudible] there were some people who were good at it;
in this photo itself, actually.
From the Chemistry Department
Dr. R. R. Madan was a good...
this one, chess player and also a...
this thing, bridge player.
He used to participate in the bridge
tournaments and all those things. So, Then-
those days it was only the B.Tech. tutorials.
Yes. B.Tech. Only the IITs which was going on in Academic [inaudible]
started with B.Tech. Yeah
And, till 1963 - '63, I think 63 only - 62 only they
started the M.Tech. programme.
And...the senior staff who joined the engineering
departments had...they were from Indian Institute of Science
or IIT Kharagpur, like that
some of them; Professor Varghese from Civil Engineering,
he came from Kharagpur.
Professor - I am talking about engineering departments -
Professor Narayan Murthy was the
professor of Mechanical Engineering,
he came from Indian Institute of Science.
And...some, like that some people came.
Chemical Engineering, Professor Venkateswarlu,
he came from Kharagpur IIT.
The next set, that is, the younger
people they needed lecturers and others also, isn't it?
Unfortunately there was no M.Tech. programme,
they were there only in the IIT - IIT Kharagpur.
And Kharagpur was the first IIT;
the other IITs were started almost simultaneously.
So, they had a problem of ...
Teachers. People with M.Tech. qualification. Ah, M.Tech. qualification.
So, most of the people who joined
at that time as lecturers
they did not have an M.Tech. degree,
they had teaching experience with their Bachelor’s degree.
So, they were all asked to join
this in the... M.Tech. classes. Oh Ok...but who -
Half time teaching and half time this thing.
All the people that is even the great figures
that you'll find in the...this thing - Civil Engineering,
Mechanical Engineering,
many people who are 75-plus and all that
they all did their...this thing.
There were some - there were, some other programme was there
that is, what was called the...this thing
after their BE for 3 years,
they will be provided with a stipend.
And..they would be...they, they have to
give out bond that they would become teachers,
they won’t go for any other job after this thing.
They were...that - that one...that programme
some people were there,
whereas all the M.Tech. classes
were full of only people
who were teaching in IIT;
almost everyone excepting a
few who are younger, that,
so, the gap would be that the
28-plus something would be 1, one half of the class.
So, they were sitting on both sides of the table actually. Both, both,
yes, they will - they learn here and teach somewhere
[inaudible] that was the situation at that time
because they wanted teachers.
These are the best method of...this thing,
it was planned well, actually.
In that one, ... I also
had the privilege of mounting the platform
as an assistant to one person who was Materials
Science teacher; he was Professor Ramasheshan.
So, they used to have,
that is, there used to be very busy professors at that time also,
they won’t - they won’t be able to come to the
classes - they would be out of station. something,
At that time they would send.
So, the person has to be prepared for that.
So, many...so, you have to take classes
but in one way it was a good experience in the sense
you would not - you would not learn
you would not read some books at all,
no...this thing.
And, when you have to tell somebody something
you should...be more, much more
sure than what you would do to when you tell to yourself.
So, we swallow some doubts and then go...that-
that you can’t do because you have to answer.
I think some of the tutorial problems which you
and your colleagues at that time prepared,
they are available even today
in the shopping centre and all that.
These people use them...old handwritten.
tutorials in Physics.
I don’t know this thing. So,
how we spent time in the Physics Department
some of us, is...is also there.
That is, we used to have our own seminars
that is, sometimes we used to prepare
question papers to assist our Professor Koch for some time.
And, afterwards that continued.
We used to prepare question papers then tutorial
sheets for the students and we should be prepared
to answer...that they - they used to -tutorial classes,
only 10 students would be there in the - in a class.
We have to take those 10 students,
teach in the sense, don’t go and lecture or anything.
You go there with...you give a problem sheet.
You have the solution manual, everything with you
and they can ask some questions.
They will be the [inaudible] Yes. They can ask questions
which are not there in this.
So, we should be prepared to answer.
And we were monitored
by none other than the then director of the institute,
Professor Sengupto.
And, you will be - he will be
we don’t know whether he would...he's there,
the...there used to be only one telephone for the entire
set of people, that is the landline,
this one receiver that used to be in a common place.
There would be a watchman and he will take the phone
and come and tell "there is a phone call for you"; you have to go there,
that - that was the...technology was
only that much at that time.
And it was very difficult to get many lines also.
So, he would be sitting in that
watchman’s chair and listening to the class which is going on.
So, such - some students used to ask, "See, in this - today’s lecture,
yesterday’s lecture, I didn’t follow this. Can you explain?"
So, we should be prepared for that.
That kind of teaching is nowadays called
the flipped class method,
where the lecture is given upfront
and the - in the class the teacher will only
help to work out the problems and all that, so...
We were working out problems.
I mean, teacher need not work out,
they can make them work out.
Make them work out. Oh, like that
So, we have to answer.
We have to answer patiently and they can ask
questions and they, they were told that
don’t spare the teacher you ask the questions.
Even then they were the best students.
Like that.
I don’t follow this and all, that used to watch,
he used to listen.
We don’t know when he is doing it,
how he is doing it and all that, he...this thing.
And it was good; we were on
tenterhooks - not out of fear,
but we learnt and we used to work out problems, one thing.
And then, some topic
Professor Ramasastry used to say you choose
you - you choose a topic and
you prepare, you give a seminar talk,
just to keep people engaged otherwise
they would gossip or read
this one, fiction and all those things. Like that...so.
But at that time people were not registered for Ph.D. also.
No, the programme was not that - they had
not framed any rules at that time
See, initial years it was only like that,
we did not know what is the future for us
excepting that every month we will get a
salary and even the promotion
was not based on your
qualifications or anything.
That is, they did not - that
formal this thing had not come,
it was an informal system.
So, we did not know because
actually what were we...we were
thinking is that we would get our wages,
we can live - this one - in a secure way.
And, outside we can’t get this much,
any job means
transfer at any... it is not like that;
we did not think about all those things.
I did not even look at any
advertisements from elsewhere and all those things,
it was like that...we were peaceful.
Within a few years people would have started
registering for Ph.D. Yes.
Doing these things. Those things, rules were framed
And, then things came
that in the first phase it was only a foundation.
...good teaching.
That is, the teacher should Know the subject because,
there actually the condition of the universities
teaching and learning,
it was not very good even at that time.
The students may be good,
but that was not very good
but - some individual students were good,
they were - they did not depend on the...this one - teaching;
whether it was Central College Bangalore,
where he was doing or Madras Christian College,
Presidency College or any of those things.
The students on their own they would study,
they did not depend on the...the teachers like that.
So, when you... decided to register for Ph.D.,
how was it - the support from your family
and...because the salary won’t be the same right?
No, But it is a part of
the... I think you were on the job
and then doing Ph.D., right?
Oh. Part of- With the salary
Yes, yes yes yes
you don’t have to... It's an [Inaudible] registration.
I'll tell you - see, there are
every - even today in many places,
I will tell you the situation before our time.
So, many, very few people would go for research.
The...the thing is when they have spare time,
they used to take - if it is a Mathematics teacher in a college,
he used to take private tuitions and
make much more money.
Getting a Ph.D. did not mean anything for them right.
But they would know... know the subject,
they would have interest, everything
it's something like
[inaudible] doubt...who own the interest they used to work
problems and all that...some people are publishing also.
That is, working in...portress Ramanujam published his papers.
He did not have any idea of - what to do with
his knowledge, everything that,
...it was like that, society was like that.
There may not be too many people with Ph.D. degrees. Yes.
That doctor would Doctor yes, yes, normally
when somebody gets a doctor they have to say
...he has got a ... doctor's degree in the Mathematics or something;
what use is it?
He can’t treat a patient.
That was the society at that time,
the science this thing came only later.
Actually, for that, one has to
thank Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru for inculcating that
this one, scientific temper and
science education and all those things.
In the highest level
and many others...very - people you
professor... you went to India Institute of Sciences,
isn’t it? IISC for your Ph.D., right?
So, because it happened to be in Bangalore -
in some other places people wouldn’t...
It - it was different in Northern India,
Allahabad some centres were there,
Calcutta. Calcutta Calcutta, everything it was there,
that - they were a bit, little bit
a few years in advance, ahead of the other places.
So, in our department Professor Ramasastry
used to be the guide for many of the people.
Yes, the thing is at that time...
but...the...there were not - Professor Ramana Murthy.
Actually, I was to...only
I was associated only with ... Ramana Murthy
that is thing, Ramana Murthy,
that is, Professor Ramasha - Professor Ramana Murthy
got his Ph.D. from Allahabad University with ...
one of Satyendra Nath Bose’s students that...
it is S. N. Bose’s students.
Then, actually I ... this one
I went over only to Professor Ramana Murthy.
And, that is how it became... it got into X-ray diffraction. Ok.
So, something we had to do.
Professor Ramasastri had some 3 or 4 people
including one person who was in the...
what was that - control systems. Oh.
Automatic controls.
Oh, he guided in that area also...?
Did he guide Ph.D. in that? No, no,
he actually registered for a Ph.D.
but the thing is how that was a totally different area.
So he went to Bangalore.
one I. S. N. Murthy - I. Surya Narayan Murthy,
he became a professor of Electrical Engineering there.
And he is no more now,
but he ... he came for selecting
IIT Electrical Engineering professors.
So, so, we had Professor Ramasastri and
Professor Ramana Murthy as guides. Ramana Murthy, Shivaramakrishnan
Oh Sivaramakrishnan, these three people were guides -that day. These three people were eligible
to guide and ... Ramana Murthy...
could not take - by that because
by that time, others had joined,
1962, onwards others had joined.
'62 there was a large recruitment
in the institute because
1959 was the first batch,
they passed out in '64,
1960 was the second batch.
When I joined it was a small thing
and suddenly then 1961 was the first
Joint Entrance Examination.
First Joint Entrance Examination,
the very first batch that entered through
the all-India entrance examination was from 1961.
At that time also we have some interesting experience,
we did not know what it was, we heard about it.
About what? About the entrance examination.
We have not heard about IIT Kharagpur
when we were students.
...so ... this joint entrance examination one
thing, with that only they were talking about it
and one day we were given some question paper,
JEE paper and asked to work out because,
it was for the school standard so.
Who set the paper?
Some, who... Set actually,
it was a joint Kharagpur IIT. IIT
And from the other IITs at that
time when Madras IIT -
Madras was the 3rd IIT -
Bombay IIT had come.
So, 3 IITs were there,
1961, Kanpur had come and also Delhi.
There were 5 IITs and 5 people were setting the paper
Professor Ramasastri should have gone.
But Professor Koch wanted to set the paper,
he [inaudible] this thing.
So, he went for a- He has [inaudible]
that paper which had come.
So, the English they might have
done; all of them joined together thing
and there were only about
7 - 600 or 700 scripts
that came from this southern region
for the entrance examination. 600
Or 700 for all these Southern states together.
That was all.
So, we were given the question paper,
we didn’t know that Joint Entrance Examination had taken place.
This paper we tried to - then when we found
this is the paper that people have answered,
school students have answered.
So, you work it out.
We didn’t know what purpose it was.
So, fortunately because we had
workload problems in the
from the - say, there you - books were in our days
when we were students
books were also very few.
And, only you can prepare some 5, 50,
60 problems and feel that you have learnt Physics.
So, this books from America had come,
US books had come,
there is one called Sears and Zemansky
that was a university Physics -
And, then this - they saw a very famous Resnick and
Halliday book that came,
they were all American publications
using foot-pound-second systems: fps systems.
So... that we worked the problems from that
and...in the - in the first edition of
Resnick and Halliday,
So, many answers were wrong
that is the thing...some thing.
So, we were feeling that we have committed a mistake,
those problems we used to check
and again and again and satisfy that we were right.
So, we thought they are all printing mistakes, like that.
So, we had some training.
So, all of us scored more than 80 percent.
the teachers are examined first.
So ... Ramasastri was very happy.
So, then he said this is the reason why I have asked you all to our problems.
It was correct because -
Yeah, yeah, I think that would have given you a
right kind of training because
you were involved in setting the JEE paper several times
during your career. So... but JEE papers also went through
so many modifications.
So, that - that paper was very
easy compared to...anyone taking the examination now
would score 100 percent in those paper I think.
So, we...but that was novel at that time.
So, then they said they wanted
4 people to value the papers,
then only the system of valuation also we came to know
they had prepared model answers.
They said you can work out,
by an alternate method you will have to do,
the - the - fee that we - we used to get per script is 1 rupee
at that time.
So, we used to handed over
1 bundle of 20 answer scripts,
we have to sit in a room, all in a room,
we won’t be - we won’t have to go out,
we will be served a coffee,
tea like all those things that would come out periodically.
So, and... to some 3 hours
we used...we have to work and
more than that you should not work,
mental fatigue would come.
So, 3, 4 days we finished this thing,
each person valued about 140,
150 scripts this thing and that was the first experience
of how an examination is set up and all that.
otherwise, the...in other places it will be...
whether it is a Physics paper or a
Mathematics exam paper, every thing,
it was all memory-based, you can...this one -
But when somebody hears this they will have a confusion because
today it is only machine valuation.
JEE is completely
what we call multiple choice kind of short questions and all that.
Yes. So, this kind of valuation is not being done now.
Yes, yes, that is true The JEE system's
But changed very much
Even...what about fast food?
It's a question of necessity, that is your - So,
there used to be problems and - Yes.
Yeah, when I joined the... Yes, we have to work
I was valuing the ... And the method of working the...
but we can practice it
here also during a course
you give an assignment
and call the person who has taken the assignment
to come and work it out for others,
that is what we were doing;
though we were a given a
glorious title as a teacher,
we were doing it, only that, that.
So, here when we joined as ...
what are called senior technical assistant only,
we were told we were senior to none.
But assistant to all. All.
That is department. That is the technicality of the [inaudible].
That is the - the technical is common.
So, you are this thing
you should be prepared to do any work.
So that the team moves on.
But the academic life would have
changed when you started Ph.D. right.
No, that...even You would have started your own experiments
That is, changes also, that is
many changes take place,
they come to know of them only
by after some time and when you look
back how things were there, that is the thing.
So the ... as it happens When you
because initially this - it looks like the career was
fully engaged for question-paper-making and
correction and things like that. Yes.
So, when you started your experiments
for research, that would have - No, no,
we have to...we have to do; that is the reason
Why it takes more time for - Ah, right, right, right. - when you do Ph.D.
And, another problem is that is
my personal view now is
now, when you do something do it full-time,
never half-half.
It is, that is half plus half doesn’t add to 1,
when you do it half-time, that is ...
the time may be linked with the space,
but not in the non-realistic world
that is - that is what happens right
So, it took time.
and yes - and another Yeah
thing is when you are working with one of your
senior colleagues as your supervisor,
there are some constraints;
depends on how things go.
Either you move very fast -
faster than you normally can
if ... it's all in phase.
If it is - if there is a
phase difference, it is a problem - some...
it happens, like in service anywhere.
Ultimately, every service is servitude
at any level everywhere, that thing, any country also.
So, we can’t is it...it takes time and this thing.
But the thing is what now
you are all full-time students, isn’t it?
Full time is the best actually,
you finish and go and
when you are doing as much as possible,
you should learn
because you never get an opportunity
anywhere else that is IITs or in a different situation
from other research laboratories;
if it - if you join the Tata Institute of
Fundamental Research or full-time this thing - that is,
practically no teaching for the staff there,
professors that they give lectures,
but only seminar type of lectures.
Bhabha Atomic Research Centre
in the training school, it is something military training.
So, many subjects they are thrust and you are ranked and
your career depends on
what rank you get in the school
but some people have been successful - because of that
there have been some failures like this and.
But here, when you are -
you are all half-time teaching assistants, isn’t it? Yes.
That is, there you take the teaching part also
as an opportunity to learn things which you will never
be able to do anywhere else.
Here you have very good stuff
to which you can deliver,
your customers or capable that is
they will be able to appreciate it
and all those things,
you will do it well.
And... it will also give you confidence.
Self-confidence in teaching is very important,
it should not be some sort of an overconfidence,
superciliousness such things should not be there,
but it should be well honed-up talent.
That you should get, that is. So
after getting your Ph.D. you might
started teaching in M.Sc.
M.Sc. we can teach even without a...
this thing, Ph.D. So what were
the topics you were teaching? Topics is...
yes, topics also came
it was like this - initially
whenever there was some the ...
I have taught different subjects
in - I have taught some for M.Sc. Chemistry,
there was some Physics.
I was teaching those courses,
there were some students in the
earlier batches,
for M.Sc. Mathematics also they had Physics.
At that - at one time;
those courses also I have taught.
Of course, they are at a slightly
different level from for that of M.Sc. Physics,
but good enough for
this thing and they had taken for B.Tech.,
some, we have to design some courses.
as per elective courses and then
take those courses and also teach them.
Among the courses that
I designed and ... also took, were
Quantum Mechanics for engineers
that course was -
for the Electrical That is still going on -
that course is still an elective for B.Tech.
Electrical - Electrical - for Electrical Engineering B.Tech. students
it was there and it was very successful
because the applications that - that we did
all happened to be in the semiconductor physics
and lasers and such things only,
which was also new in the - '60s and '70s.
1970s. Yeah, yeah.
Actually, I designed that course at that time.
So, the quantum mech - and
till then of the quantum mechanics that we used to learn
used to be only perturbation method
and such things only,
nothing of the applications into the, this one:
solid state and
Experimental side.
For example,
to know that when an - a - a charged particle
its behaviour depends on the environment in which it is in
a free electron is this, not free
in this - this sense when it is inside some other medium.
So, many things happen,
how it happens like that,
then courses... that one.
There is one course on X-rays...structure analysis - X-rays. No, that
was for our own
M.Sc. students, that is the thing and also for Ph.D. students
and Chemistry also taught.
There was another course
which we had to do at the request of the
Metallurgy and Mechanical Engineering
Departments: reactor physics.
That course was...I was asked to
take that paper of Professor Sobhanadri.
He said you design a course like
that. In the first year
there were only 2 students
who had opted for that course
because he - he said that you take it in your room.
What I did was I taught that,
and fortunately we have a reactor in Kalpakkam.
I took them to the research reactor
that is the one that is used
for research. There are two,
this one - units there;
one for power generation.
The other is for this one-
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam, off-screen]Sir, which year was this?
[Mr. Sathasivam] Which year was this?
It was in 1982 or so,
1982. [Mr. Sathasivam] Can I ask the question about the ?? '60s - joined
[Mr. Sathasivam] There were supposed to be classes being held in AC
Tech College because the campus -
Oh, that one - when I joined. [Mr. Sathasivam] Did you have that experience?
No, no. When I joined, the classes
were...had begun here. [Mr. Sathasivam] In '60 itself?
Here ... '60, when I joined - '60 itself, it was there,
only in '59 they had classes in the AC College. Yes.
And, they used the
workshop of the Guindy Engineering
College in the very first year
because the things had not arrived.
When I came, the first
thing they built - first this thing they built - was the workshop
worksho - this, all those...that was the - at
that time it was the first - the largest non-production workshop
non-production, the... Yeah
[Mr. Sathasivam] ... the Physics lab - Not in the technical sense
[Mr. Sathasivam] Was there a Physics lab in the early days or -
... No, no; we had a Physics lab - it is
For the B.Techs. It is easy to set up
because the Physics that we were having for the
B.Tech. students,
we were sufficient - that is, we could have
we could purchase equipment from the city, Madras city;
no problem at all. I see
We had new Michelson interferometer,
everything we purchased and we
yes, the Physics lab and many experiments we could -
this one - we built the apparatus itself from here.
Glass blowing section was there and so,
we had barometers, everything we did here.
All those things we did.
We were engaged in all those things.
and teaching was only part;
we were actually learning and working problems, that’s all.
And sitting in the, that process class did not
teach us any great Physics - in the sense,
that Physics we knew.
And we knew it also in the right way, all of us.
In fact, Professor Murthy,
S. B. s. Shastry and Gopalam they did a
course on applied physics in Andhra University
where they had to do so much of Engineering also.
So, they were well equipped actually.
So, suddenly after 19 - the B.Tech. teaching,
they had...the student, the...Professor Sengupto
insisted on all the 5 years they will have
Physics - B.Tech. students.
Core courses, directive cames only later.
In his period,
all these students have to take Physics for 5 years.
Mathematics for 5 years. Yes.
All those things.
So, the - the Mathematics
level of the B.Techs graduates
was quite high in those days
and some of them became mathematicians later.
Out of the interest.
That reminds me
the Dr. Sudarshan of Kottayam
Mahatma Gandhi University was your student... No, no,
he was a Srinivasan’s classmate actually
No, no, I am talking of a younger person
who worked in X-rays
His name is Sudarshan. Oh, oh, that is my - That - that's what I've been -
Professor Sudarshan Kumar. Ha Yeah yeah yeah
Yeah, yeah, Sudarshan Kumar. He did in '90s, actually.
He did Ph.D. with you, right? With me
I remember that. Yeah.
I met him several times. He is doing very well Yeah, he is doing very well.
I met him when he was a director of the... I went to his
house; I stayed for sometime. Department.
Oh I see, ok.
This is in Mahatma Gandhi University, Kottayam. University is the.
Kottayam; he's the Head of the Department.
Now knowing there is some gain and
something he would have got, He was a - they have
they have the school of science, he was Director of that.
He was the Director.
I have gone - visited there a couple of times.
He did a postdoctoral at Ohio State University
so... So, he was your - your own Ph.D. student.
Then he did post Ph.D. in IASC
in molecular biophysics and then went to
Ohio State University for ... Columbus
where my son studied actually.
So, he did - did well.
And then came back,
he - he has guided a number of students.
And he is a flourishing - my, one of my students.
Professor Sudarshan Kumar - see, Sudarshan Kumar,
he is the first university entrant from his family.
Oh. In his surroundings
First generation learner we call. First generation you can say and
his father doesn’t know any English,
only Malayalam he knows.
I went to his house also,
he was in - this thing
he was - some Kollam isn't it?
So, then Dr. Babu Varghese.
Yes
I don’t know whether you have heard of him,
have you - no, you've not heard - of course he's retired now.
He was my first He is in - he was in SAIF - working in SAIF.
Our X-ray.
He was a central XRD,
that one - he was in charge of it,
he was a scientist.
He is also very interesting personality.
You - you know he Actually
when he joined.
Of course, students also will tell,
students are also of different kinds; you learn to
manage them, human management also is necessary.
Otherwise, you are a failure,
the student is a failure, the system is a failure.
Nowadays it is called the management of human resources.
It was ... he was allotted to me
saying that he may be a problem if
he is allotted to somebody else,
there was a choice for another person.
So, there was a - what is the
something - something doesn’t commute or something what - with.
One scientist by name Gell-Mann.
He was - Quark
Quark - Quark -
He had a ...
He wanted to get admission in one university,
otherwise he may - did not want to live at all.
So, the choice was this,
then he said that - he got.
And, Harvard I think he got in Harvard or
something I don’t remember many this thing;
Feynman only went to MIT, but this thing.
So, he either suicide or this thing - he got.
So, I could not and choose
which one first I have to choose
was a problem for me.
And, then because these two things don’t commute
The decision in case one thing you make a mathematical operation.
One first, the other next - the result
should be the same if it commutes.
[inaudible] suicide you can’t do it.
Suicide you can do only last, not first.
Like that - like that - this.
[Mr. Sathasivam] but you're known for your personal skills.
[Mr. Sathasivam] For your - you said your student was selected for you.
Because student - student - [inaudible].
Suicide was not the problem,
he was eccentric enough.
Yeah. That was the thing.
But he had a very successful career- He is a very bright person;
his interests were wide.
First he told me sir I am solve - trying
to solve Fermat’s last theorem.
Right, for 1 year please don’t disturb me.
When it is a highly - though much of price is there
when given at the price,
I will share the proceeds - half with you, 50 percent I will get.
So, that was the thing.
So, I thought I didn’t know what to do
because somebody ... I was ...
at that time I had read some other joke,
two lunatics where they - they
escaped from a mental asylum,
they were sitting in a park opposite to that and were talking.
See, I want to buy that house,
they thought it is a house and all that thing -
they were mentally -
The other man said: you can’t, I am not going to sell it to you.
Something like that.
Yeah, this kind of research would have been of that order
... something. He was In that time.
He was a little bit and -
So, I let him and the result
he has been telling everybody that
he’s solving Fermat’s Theorem, last theorem.
So, in the hostel he was called Fermat.
So, then he had to take the courses,
but he did something,
but very good, extremely bright person,
high originality - this thing,
but even today he is a little bit crazy
like that. He is - [Mr. Sathasivam] So,
does it mean that that was both both experimental and
theoretical work like that... Yes
he had to do - he had to do. Actually
I can’t guide him in. Fermat Theoretical work.
He didn’t do that for Ph.D. My knowledge is zero
almost 0 in the sense the thing,
but he - he did this thing,
he solved a crystal structures, everything he did.
He would write programs
by looking at the book
one by one he used to see - it's something like
looking at a dictionary and writing an article
in a foreign language like that -
that originality he had [inaudible]. He was very
successful, his career as -
the manager XR - X-ray. X-ray,
Central X-ray facility in the institute. he became this thing.
And, he used to work in fits and starts,
you will have to admit it, what to say,
but he was good.
We got on very well,
he didn’t quarrel with me or do anything -
I didn’t - because I know he is good.
And he was...
So, people used to ask me how are you managing with him
and they thought that ... he was my first student,
both are, that’s all gone - like that.
Then one or two advised me
why did you take him, you should have
this thing - he was not - he is good, this thing.
So, the first paper came out in Acta Crystallographica
the other some 2 or 3, 4.
So, in the 4th year
he finished everything
then I said you can start writing your the-
What is there to write,
these are the structures,
you just say this is
the result, you give the tables that’s all.
What is there to write?
Then ... that is, he could talk like that,
he did not mean anything,
he could talk like that.
He used to talk very frankly.
Very frankly. Very frankly.
So, brutally frankly that you may get
embarrassed sometimes, something.
So, he was to get married also,
he married ... oh Loyola College professor’s daughter
a Mathematics professor’s daughter.
They ... he asked me that the professor asked me
will he get his degree,
he - he seems to be ... he - and he is talking
I don’t - that is - he is not talking now.
Properly - he is a very normal person.
He will get his degree, he has done very good work, this thing
but what I did was
I could gather - I would write,
but ... the ... that thing one material is
there even the papers only is -
Will be edited into - Not that he is -
good at English, everything.
He is a peculiar type of person that is the thing,
but the thesis came out well - both the reports
were very good, everything is in,
and the marriage took place.
He has a son and a daughter,
daughter is married and she is in US with her husband.
The son is doing Ph.D. in Tata
Institute of Fundamental Research. He was a
student of our M.Sc. one ... Yes, yes [inaudible]
This thing, he is good, Unni - that is his name ... I think.
This man is also very good
and here, his mind you - Professor Manoharan,
you know Professor P. T. Manoharan.
P. T. Manoharan was waiting
for him to submit his thesis,
when we were going for binding it
he - he got down from his car.
So, it is his thesis that is in.
Then, 1 week later,
he advertised for scientific offices.
So his job was ready.
Job was ready. When he -
He wanted a person
to look after the X-ray diffraction,
even ... it has a diffractometer,
right from the collection of data to solution
which are needed for Chemistry people
[inaudible] he was waiting for him.
So, the job was waiting.
How was setting up the XRD department?
Setting up the XRD.
No, yes they this is a single crystal diffractometer
which is there in the special instruments laboratory,
in the - when you go there opposite the
electron micro -- that experiment - that -when.
There is a single crystal diffractometer,
I think one lady from the
Chemistry Department is -
Is - Metallurgy Department.
Metallurgy Department - not Metallurgy I think,
she is from Chemistry, must be,
this Metallurgy this thing will be powder -
Oh, that’s a different X-ray.
Dr. Keshavan Nair was. Yes, Keshavan Nair was
in charge of it. in charge of it.
So, he stayed here,
unfortunately his - this one - ambition was
not fulfilled in the institute.
He was very good,
...he would have been a very good guide,
research guide - because he has lot of originality,
he would have solved some good problems for students.
He could not get a faculty position,
it - it was a - something sometimes in a prosperous institute
with very broad-minded people sometimes
things don’t work for some people.
It happened at - that was - in one
sense - I knew one Director - one of the,
I was the secretary of the faculty association.
The 1980s and '90s also,
I was the - I was the secretary of the faculty association
on pay commission on two pay commissions
came in that period.
So, we had to negotiate and all those things.
I used to be called by the -
for the- this thing - in that
sense I could know the two Directors,
one Professor Srinath
and other was Professor R. Natarajan,
he was a ... Mechanical Engineering man.
So, I met Natarajan.
[Inaudible] at that time, he is - one Professor
S. P. Venkateshan you know? Have you heard
Mechanical - Yes, Mechanical Engineering.
He was the Head of the special instruments laboratory.
So, in spite of all those things somehow
our department and Physics Department,
they are somehow not
willing to give him - that is the ... thing.
This interview with Professor Srinivasan
is very different from the other interviews which we had here,
in the sense I wanted to bring out some
other interesting aspects of your personality.
Oh, thank you. Like your -
now for Sanskrit and - I'll keep quiet, I'll keep quiet ... but it was
you know we heard that you have
translated a book on
General Theory of Relativity by Lifshitz and Landau,
No, Landau and Rumer. Landau and Rumer.
into Sanskrit language. Into Sanskrit.
Both are difficult - general theory of relativity is the
most difficult theorem if it is- No, no, it was a very
popular book; it was not a - I didn’t
do the Science part at all.
No, no, that’s okay,
but my point is that is the
most difficult thing in Science and
Sanskrit is supposed to be the most difficult language.
I also wrote a - So how did you manage to - I published
a book on - there is a
lyric which describes only
this thing, seasons and such thing that is a -
Muthusamy Meghadūtam,
Meghadūtam. Meghadūtam, that is a cloud -
somebody sends a cloud as a messenger.
He's talking about Kalidasa's ...
Kalidasa's Book
That I wrote in prose form,
treating it as a travelogue, that is,
it starts from this thing - a place in - presently in Maharashtra
Ramtek, where, say Rama is - is said to have
spent some time, - in during his exile.
And, from there yaksha goes and
then goes to the Himalayas like that,
in that process he traverses different places.
The importance of those places
and all those things of those days
that - I - it was published actually.
Then I took some after my retirement,
I took some interest in
Sanskrit and during this service here
for the IIT library,
I have translated scientific papers from German into English.
Those days in - many papers were
used to be in German and German
somebody needed to translate it to ... German into English
I used to...
Research scholars needed that kind of service. At that time.
At the request, the central library was doing that service;
I have done something.
Only thing is after, for last 20 years
I totally lost touch with that language
with the result I have to start at 0,
that is that - unless you are in touch with a language
you just forget about it, forget it.
But your talents range from
relativity and Sanskrit to teaching undergraduate
students about quantum physics
and that is your latest contribution. That is because of -
I happened to be in this place by an accident. Yeah.
That’s all. Nothing else.
But ... in a career if you
look at, when you get your position
and all those things, if you look back
and all those things,
you may feel that you have been
deprived of things at the right
time and all those thing -
that happens to everybody.
Actually ... as one of my professor - my colleague
late Gopalam used to say, see,
"I am," about himself "I am rotting as a lecturer;
when I go and tell the deputy director" -
the ... Professor Sampath there was a deputy director by (name of)
Professor Sampath of Electrical Engineering,
he also became - later, he became director
IIT Kanpur like that -
he told him, "See, I am also rotting."
He said "Sir, you are rotting as
Deputy Director, I am -"
There is a difference between rotting as deputy director and as a professor Like that.
But anyway, he felt he did not get his due.
So, he was [inaudible]
not feeling [inaudible] rotting, that is this thing;
So, but anyway life is like that. So
what is your vision about this book on quantum physics?
Whom it will benefit? Right now
thanks to the encouragement, I wrote - I used to
spend some 4 or 5 months every
2 years with my son’s family in US.
He is there since ... last 17 years or so,
he is there. After -
So, when he was in Virginia,
he was - till 3 years ago he was in Virginia,
now he is in Texas.
So, that those places you have -
the county libraries are very good.
We can, this thing - I didn’t know anything about
how to spend time I did not know,
you can’t go out and all that
in US unless you are very familiar
with things and all those.
So, I thought I might read something,
even that Meghadūtam I did
only when I was there.
Then, the, why not do something in Physics because
I found a number of Physics books
which I can’t get even in the IIT library,
general books like that.
So, I started writing something, that is
how quantum physics developed
like any river which starts as a pond,
the Planck’s theory also was a,
for a specific problem it was a solution.
Planck himself said it was curved fitting
that’s what he himself very hesitatingly
hesitantly he presented it and it remained like that.
The person who digged it up and
made it ... great was Einstein,
when he solved the photoelectricity problem.
So, you will have to - would have had to
read up lot of non-technical books to get this Yes.
historical perspectives Yes, yes but generally, I
used to read almost 1
fiction every week.
In - in the service when I was here
any new book which comes ... R. K. Narayan’s
The Guide came only when I was in
IIT in the - in the earlier years,
made it [inaudible],
then all - the all the books of R. K. Narayan
English teacher.
So and then, there his foreign
US experience, something he had written so
many things I read them and also
Somerset Maugham,
there was an author of the
20th century considered to be the greatest
living author when he lived,
his stories also;
all those things I used to read
right and left something are that
just - just like that.
But, when we read the available books and quantum
mechanics and all that you don’t get those [inaudible] these
No, actually, yes, yes, yes, episodes which you have mentioned in that.
The quantum mechanics ...
when I read I thought it is all quantum jumps, everything was,
suddenly somebody that is
what is it, our bond approximation,
scattering like that.
The books used to present things as topics,
how is it that they get into their problems
because it can’t be all on a -
The human angle. Yes
So, then Social
one - one - why did it develop only in certain places,
all those things.
When I ... went through
I found that there is a link.
See, only when an atmosphere or an
environment is important for you
to do research in a particular area,
that’s what I felt.
I had one experience - somebody said
that this thermoelectric cooling is there - thermo - some compounds Yeah.
are used for thermoelectric cooling,
bismuth telluride and intermetallic compound.
At that, when I saw that I tried it,
I grew a bismuth telluride sample,
heated it at one end and
thought that I would get ice at the other end
or at least very poorly...
But it was very hot.
So, nothing happened; it was a good conductor also,
almost a good conductor.
So, I - I didn’t believe the experimental
results and all those thing,
I dropped it.
So, I thought -
It's too hot you have to drop it.
I dropped it and dropped the topic also.
So, what is the present status of the book?
What is the present status of the book? Yes
Yes, it will come out. When will it come out?
because I am doing the correction of the draft.
Now, I - what I find is
if you want, first you have to understand
one important thing about the refrigerator,
it maintains a difference in temperature unless
you keep the hot side
at the constant room temperature
you won’t get the cold pot cooler
it's an elementary thing.
I did not know, we knew only
the thermal - what is thermodynamic cycle for the - this thing.
But we did not know the -
I - at least I did not know
this thing, that is why I had to burn my finger.
Literally. Burning finger on research.
Only a few days ago something when I was writing it,
I remembered that.
So, I added a sentence
you have to ... the hottest element should be
maintained at the ambient temperature.
That is a connection with the book,
I was wondering why you are talking about
when you are talking the book. you were...
Yes ...talking about that.
Ambient temperature - I have written it.
Because ... the other person -
there may be others who may burn their fingers.
No, but it is necessary
that is, certain things we learn only when we
this thing - and better, this thing - what you have felt,
you should have, should have learnt - this thing.
The person who suggested it to me also
did not know that there is something
immediately what he said was
you check up whether it is a pure sample, like that only,
you don’t think about it - this thing
[Mr. Sathasivam] Sir, can you tell us about the
about the experimental facilities that have
come up in the department? Department,
actually, it was almost nothing when I joined.
Excepting the teaching the demonstration experiments -
they could be converted into good experiments also -
but
that was nothing.
When once the question of research came,
that is formal research came
people took up ... what
what are the measuring instruments that we have to buy;
depends on what you are going to measure.
The first - one of the things that was first bought was
a spectrophotometer -
a Hewlett Packard spectrophotometer -
which was installed when we were in the
Civil Engineering building itself.
That - That was tested
by Professor Ramasastri,
he used to sit late in the night and all those
things and take readings and all because he
meant to use it for - by himself,
that is the best way of learning.
And a Hewlett Packard had if and -
when I went back recently when a - thing,
it was started in a car shed
at the time when they exported it to our country,
this thing; it was as usual for a commercial thing
they have to make a box, everything ready,
that is design of a ...
this one, experimental equipment for sale
is different from something
that you [unclear] for your experimental this thing.
So, it was this thing.
And at that time it was vacuum tube technology.
I think it was done
well, it was good.
Yeah, readings you have to do only manually,
take manually like that.
Afterwards, other things came,
then, the other important thing that we bought was
an X-ray generator.
And at that time the diffractometer that is
what is it - computer controlled accesses and all
those things were not there.
So, you have to use photographic methods,
it's photographic, then take the thing.
So one - solving one small crystal structure
molecular structure it would take one and a half years.
Now, it is done you put it and in
about half an hour your thing is given,
these are the bond distances,
this is the thing and all those things it comes.
So, technology has a - 19 -
the - the earlier - till 1970s,
we did not notice any advancement in
technology of accessing experimental results.
So, we have to do everything and then also learn
how to do the - supposing there will be a background
everything, nothing, that is is no experiment is perfect.
It is not a ... you will have to
account for some errors and all those inevitable things.
So the - the experiment the physics of the experimental method
involves a knowledge of the errors, that can arise.
And, how to account for them
to make the - your result credible
that is fitted with the theory
that is what you do is between the- this one - theory
and the theory and the expected result from the theory
and the experimental result that you get
stands in the way,
there some of the errors that are
very likely instrumental errors,
our own errors and all those things;
error this thing - knowledge of these things with necessary,
you unless you correct for that - the thing.
So, we should ... now those things are all programmed.
So, you don’t have to learn,
you can spend your time on other
things - that is the difference.
Till 1970,
'75 and all that, even '80;
only in 1980, only, the integrated circuits came
gates, logic gates everything they came only in 1980s,
prior to that the only integrated device
that was used was the operational amplifier,
it was an analogue device.
The digital electronics came in the 19s 80s,
In that time we had ...
we had to design a course
for the defense scientists.
They were sent from the DRDO,
they were doing part of their course in Electrical Engineering
department and part of the course in Physics,
I taught digital electronics for them.
That would have in a very new subject at that time.
Yes, at that time. Coming up -
So, I learnt it.
So, the digital ICs - by that time the breadboard had
come or a printed circuit board - do - learnt all those things.
So, every time we have to,
but advantage here is - advantage - an opportunity
and challenge are inter - interlinked
and I was asked to take that.
So, I - I took that course,
worked in the evenings and all those thing and then finally,
we designed the course.
The thing is they were all in their middle age 30 plus 35,
30 to 35 years old.
So - you can’t design a examination
they have to undergo examination.
So, we have to - this thing.
But you can’t expect them to write 4 pages,
5 pages for every question.
So what I did was, that is, I used to
prepare a working circuit
this thing, then this - a white eraser
that one was there: typewrite eraser,
white this thing, put it in some places
so that the circuit is different.
So, input this thing, it's some two or three different places
what would be the output?
They should know only the function of that particular
IC that goes there, this thing.
So, the question paper would be some 10 to 12 sheets.
All they have to do is at the bottom a testing, b testing;
they don’t have to write
that is the thing; that ... we had, that is the advantage in IIT is
you can design your questions in your own way,
there is no interference from the top people;
that is the thing,
they don’t interfere with you.
So that the course they felt it is good.
So, if - if you want to test a person
you should consider his ... plus and -
Yeah. minus points beyond his control
that is this thing. Yeah, teaching
JEE students who came through JEE and
teaching DRDO scientists with
age group of 30 is very very different. Yes, yes.
- age, they were all married they had
their own families everything;
so that I did - I - of course,
I took permission, due permission
Professor Sobhanadri was there,
he said it’s a good idea and you do it like this.
Then, suddenly one day
it happened Y. V. J. S. was the Head of the Department as guide,
he said he brought one book: Numerical Methods...
Numerical Methods and Science
in - in - one Scarborough,
it was 1926 - when computers were not there.
Yes, yes At that time one person had written a book
one Harvard professor by name Scarborough had written a book,
saying that this is numerical methods
and science interpolation formula,
then [unclear] and all those things.
So we had a numerical methods and -
programming was the course,
the computer programming had come,
the numerical methods were not there.
So, that course we offered
it was an elective further M.Sc.
It also must be very new.
Because computers were coming in at that time.
that also learn with new course At that time
it was his idea.
Professor Y. V. J. S.' idea we will combine this and then
put it - why don’t to take the course,
this is the book, you can do it well.
Then, at that time I was familiar only with
Fortran 2 programming,
very old one - and also when you get things done,
there is always lethargy not to learn.
I did not learn anything,
even today, I don’t know C language or anything.
So he said, don’t bother, it
it ... there was a response, some
some 6 students from our M.Sc.
they opted for the course.
But, from the other departments
something like 25 people -
person - including some people who are doing Ph.D.
So, they were all familiar with
other languages,
I cannot teach programming to that assembly.
So, what I did was - I will do the numerical part
and gave them questions.
So you solve these things using your program. Any language
numerical methods is different
from programming - beyond programme - language.
So, all the ...this thing questions I gave
I ask them can I give any
you answer as much, you submit assignment,
that was all the work that I - only assignments were there,
examination system;
that flexibility also was
there in - because of IIT - in any other place one cannot do,
you will be questioned. Computer facility was there
in IIT during those days?
Computer facility.
They all had, the better - see, the thing is by that time
the Hewlett Packard computers had come, desktop had come.
In the desktop for particular purposes there were
many systems dedicated to some - this thing it was there.
We still had only at that time
when I was teaching the course at the end
in the present - present computer centre,
1 Siemens computer was...
That was a big computer.
That was a big computer,
that was a centralized system was there.
You have to, all the
this one monitors you have to operate only within that building
and later only they gave some
this one LAN: Local Area Network, this thing they gave
in X-ray diffraction laboratory,
I got one for our use, for students' use.
But there this thing;
so the students they had the
facility in their own way,
some people had C programme,
say C and even C plus had come and all those things.
So many things had come
you do by your own method,
but give me the - the - I want
I wanted it in different steps,
whether they have been able to get it
and most of them were C programming this thing.
So so, please explain how you have done.
So I used to sit as a student in that class
they used to do.
And ... they all did well.
Thing is when the grading came,
there is - there use to be a class committee
I gave S grade to all the people.
S grade. S - superior grade,
they all did well.
Some 20 this thing.
So, for ... there were ... I had to attend 4 class committees.
But, same subject it -, it used to be headed by some.
Different departments.
headed by each department. People
from different departments came. It was not.
So, Physics it would, it would go through,
then, the students who took it
also happen to be good at the other subjects.
In one department the chief objected,
I think this man is not a very good student. That is correct.
Then I had to
well, he was - he was a good friend of mine,
he was a good person.
So, see one can be good at some subjects
may not be good at some other subjects.
So, probably in the subjects that
your department has handled,
you might have found him to be not the best.
He - he is good,
but not this good that’s what I was saying
We do in the class committees when there is a - I mean
when there is a difference of opinion whether S
should be given for some number like 80 percent or 85 percent,
then we look at the performance in other
courses and see whether there is a correlation.
One thing.
So, it has its own peculiarities.
But you should not hurt the... Right.
ego of the other person.
When you want to get things done,
one has to stoop to concur.
That's it ... Thank you.
Probably I have bored you a lot.
[Mr. Sathasivam] Not at all. Not at all.
Definitely not.
Before concluding, anything else you would like to...
Some message or anything you would like to... No, no.
[Inaudible] for the researchers. Nothing, actually,
they ... my this thing is today
at the end of - I am in the declining years,
in the sense, I have most of the ... I have no future,
it is only the present and the past.
But you are producing a book on quantum physics which is - No, no,
that is okay, that is different. What I am telling is
that is, I don’t expect anything ... there is
nothing that I expect to do further and
achieve and then get something,
if there is no particular aim;
having seen, times will change,
attitudes may change, everything may change.
But the thing is the
human relationship and the lasting friendship and affection.
That is, it gives much more satisfaction
than anything that you do,
that is, this often ... does ornateness go with greatness.
But, more often felicity with simplicity.
It’s a ...an old proverb that’s what, this thing,
anything ... that is supposing one feels like coming -
And supposing when you go back
to the department and you see people,
they should feel ... welcome you,
they should have some sweet memories
about you, that is important.
But those who are in position of command
they should elicit some -
but one has to be strict,
because the institution is more important than any
individual friendship or anything, laxity [inaudible],
but it should be good.
Because the - what I have found is
in many times the guide and the student,
they don’t get on well after the
thing is over anywhere.
That should not happen because I ...
I have not achieved much in science,
I have done only some routine work.
And the students whom I have taken, they have all got the degrees,
I had a student also who was mentally affected;
he knows - he knows about it.
He was a very bright fellow,
he got the degree, I - sort it,
I wrote the thesis and he did some -
so many things that -
He was good
but he had this problem because of that he could not Problem with the -
sit and write the thesis also. No.
That was the thing, very bright fellow.
Within 2 months, he published the first paper.
When you look at all those things,
God has been kind to - such thing.
Thank you, sir
Thank you sir, thank you. Thank you very much, sir.
- Contribute
to the Centre -
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Support - Digital
Material
Prof. J. Sobhanadri in conversation with Prof. Vijayan and Ms M. Mayarani
Today, we have Professor J. Sobhanadri with us,
who has been a very active faculty member
in the Department of Physics, IIT Madras
for a long duration - 1962 to 1995.
During this time, he has taught several courses,
developed several laboratories; in particular,
the microwave laboratory,
and he has published several papers and guided
many students who have come…
who have later become academicians,
Professors and scientists all over the world.
Professor Sobhanadri was also the Head of the Department
for 4 years in our department.
So, we are very happy
that Professor Sobhanadri could visit us and talk to us…
he will…and he is willing to talk to us about
his experiences and the
important aspects of the history of the Department of Physics.
Sir, we are very happy to have you here,
we have…I am Professor Vijayan from the Department of Physics,
your old student.
Prof. Sobhanadri: Yeah. Prof. Vijayan: He was also my Ph.D….M.Sc.
project supervisor for the M.Sc. dissertation.
I had done M.Sc. and Ph.D. in our depart…in the Physics Department.
We also have Mayarani,
who is a student,
who did…who was an M.Sc. student here and later she continued
as a research scholar, she is continuing as a research scholar here,
probably because she liked the department very much
and she would like to know how the department has
become so likeable and what
is the contribution of Professor Sobhanadri in that.
So we will be having an informal conversation with Professor Sobhanadri.
Yeah, I am very happy to be here, being interviewed by old student.
And also, another M.Sc. student to the old students.
We have in the audience also some of my friends here.
I am glad that I have been associated with IIT for so many years.
In those days,
we didn’t have the mental set up to move to
another place after joining IIT
so with that thing I joined IIT,
I wanted to develop IIT
and I continued like that till I retired in 1995.
I am here to tell you anything
starting from my childhood, which I can share with you also.
We are curious how you came to know about IIT
and what was your educational background
before that, and how you came here.
Before knowing about IITs,
I had a school education that…at that point,
I didn’t know that there are IITs.
At that time, we were only thinking that
I should complete my schooling and college education,
and go to a university for higher studies
and Andhra University was my…in my mind.
After I completed Andhra University,
I also joined there as a lecturer.
And when I was working in Andhra University,
this advertisement about IITs has come.
Earlier some IITs were started, probably
Kharagpur, Kanpur were there,
but Madras IIT advertisement came at that time.
And we were happy to choose that.
Luckily, I got the selection in the first trial,
that is how I have come here.
Ms. Mayarani: Sir, you were…you were a faculty member here in 1962. Prof. Sobhanadri: ‘62.
Yeah, So that time,
when you look back and when you see the new infrastructure
and the new instruments that we have bought
to the department and things like that,
what is the…the change that you see actually,
I have been here for…now for five and half years
and in this five and half year time itself,
I can see lot of differences
that happened in terms of infrastructure
and so…and the number of faculties and so on.
So what is the difference that you see, and how happy
you are to see this differences in this campus?
During last 5 years, we have a lot of money in the country,
and so, we are buying a lot of instruments also
and some of the instruments we don’t even know how to operate also.
In the earlier days when I was a student,
there were not so much money,
so many instruments also there,
so we have to grow the instruments,
we have to make the instruments ourselves.
So that way, we have interest in assembling instruments,
knowing what they are, how they work, the background is different.
Ms. Mayarani: Yes, yes, yes. Prof. Sobhanadri: You are now in a
Prof. Sobhanadri: a affluent society. Ms. Mayarani: Yes,
Prof. Sobhanadri: You are a…thing is different Ms. Mayarani: Yeah.
We are curious to know what kind of
major equipment was there when you joined here?
When I joined here, maybe if you go to the beginning,
there was only one building;
the Civil Engineering Department that we have even now,
that was the building which was available when I joined.
The Director was sitting there,
all the faculty…few departments were working there,
Physics Department also worked there.
So when I joined there, that was the thing.
Next couple of years,
the other buildings were constructed, and after that,
instruments started coming.
In the Physics Department,
what were the major instruments at that time?
Prof. Vijayan: In ‘60s. Prof. Sobhanadri: All the instruments were unpacked only after I joined.
Instruments started coming because the German aid has come,
as part of the German aid,
they started sending the equipment,
and one by one faculty members
have to open it and make it function.
So, faculty were also recruited around that time.
’59 IIT Madras was started, 1962 I joined.
And along with me, several of other faculty members also joined.
Professor Sivaramakrishnan joined at that time,
Professor R. Srinivasan joined at that time,
only Professor Ramasastry was there…before at that time.
So we all joined in…around 1961-62 time; that is when
we started the construction of the department.
What is the...like, these days we know the working style is
different from earlier style…that like…we saw that
you have been able to publish lot of research papers
and conduct very good research work even that time,
when we didn’t have many instrumental facilities and all that.
So what was the working style back then?
Working style was, for example,
I think sometime later I will go to my Andhra University life also.
At that time, for example, when I joined,
I was interested in electron spin resonance.
We didn’t have any equipment here.
Kanpur IIT got an equipment,
they got it also from America.
But they opened it, we have not done it here.
So what I did was, Hariharan was our first student.
Hariharan was also an old M.Sc. student,
the first batch M.Sc. student who joined for Ph.D..
So, we used to go to IIT Kanpur, conduct the experiments,
couple of times I went, later on,
Hariharan stayed there for a couple of months.
After coming back,
we analysed the experimental result
and started publishing the papers and the thesis.
So to start with, the equipment was not there,
we started a research by going to IIT Kanpur in the ESR [indistinct]
that is the first experiment we have done.
And do you remember sir,
when was the first publication that happened?
First publication…M.Sc. students used to do some projects at at that time,
after I joined in ’62,
first batch came in ‘64 I think, ‘64 yes.
Then…the M.Sc. students used to do some project with me.
One…one lady by the name Meera, she has become a Distinguished Alumni of
our department also and I [indistinct] she is in Missouri,
the public…first publication was with her, along with Hariharan.
Prof. Sobhanadri: Hariharan, myself and Meera Ms. Mayarani: Okay.
published the first paper in Current Science, sometime in ‘66. I think.
You were mentioning about the publication in ’67,
with several colleagues,
is it this publication?
That is Professor Ramasastry when he joined the department,
he was interested in developing magnetic resonance;
Electron spin resonance particularly.
So around that time only,
some of my friends in Andhra University also joined here as faculty.
Not faculty, demonstrators in those days it is called.
Professor S. B. S. Sastry joined,
Professor Y. V. G. S. Murthi joined.
So, myself, Professor Sastry and Professor Murthi;
We three…we three of us
got some data, Professor Ramasastry collected somewhere,
And [indistinct] though we three together analysed the data
and published the paper. That was the first paper
published by all the four of us.
1966, I think.
And so also, the way faculty and students interact;
Do you think there are much changes in the interaction between
a faculty and student from the time when you were working and then
the time…like the present time…
Very much, very much, very very much.
See those days, we were all interacting as a one family,
the whole department was a family,
we were not thinking whose laboratory you belong to.
Also, my tuning is…when I go back to Andhra University,
I will tell you those stories also.
My tuning also was to see that it is as a whole, a family.
So Professor Ramasastry was a leader at that time.
Myself, Professor S. B. S. Sastry, Y. V. G. S. Murthi,
we were all working together.
All the three of us working as research scholars only,
trying to do what…at a whatever data we have used to analyse,
then, we also think about how to teach the students,
because we also started getting the classes;
Laboratory and other things.
So we were working as a team.
So there is no thing.
Apart from our people,
Professor B. V. Ramanamurthi was there, another senior member.
He was looking after the X-ray Laboratory.
So he was also interacting with us.
So…which was like a family only,
Prof. Sobhanadri: because it is a smaller number also. Ms. Mayarani: Yes.
Now, we have several laboratories which are doing very well,
do you remember the early laboratories
which were started in those days?
Yeah, those days there was only two laboratories:
one is organized by Professor Ramasastry,
that is, he wanted to do defect solid state.
The other one is X-ray Laboratory,
which Professor Ramanamurthi wanted
to initiate, though they are the two senior people,
and also some equipment was there in the X-ray Laboratory at that time.
But the initial stages the growth was very slow,
until it was 1962-63.
When did Professor Srinivasan, R. Srinivasan join?
Myself, Professor Srinivasan, we all joined about the same time: 1962.
Prof. Sobhanadri: He joined as Assistant Professor, I joined as a Lecturer. Prof. Vijayan: Okay.
So, he joined the…there and he started thinking of…
he was joining originally as a theoretical physicist,
because at the IISc, he was doing some theoretical work.
Then later on, of course, Low Temperature Lab came after several years.
Part of German aid.
Sir also, could you talk about your other role in the department,
other than teaching or a researcher,
you were also the Head of the Department for 4 years;
during 1980 to ‘84.
Before he answers,
Ms. Mayarani: Yes. Prof. Vijayan: I would like to say that
he was a very good active participant and supporter for all…all activities.
It so happened that there is an award given to him
which was signed by me,
because we were…we had a Research Scholars Association,
and even in that faculty members participated,
including senior people like
Professor Sobhanadri.
Sir, you can elaborate on…
Yeah, we used to have some quiz programmes,
and sometimes, lectures by students or research scholars also.
Even if it is half an hour,
they used to come and say
what they want to do and things like that.
So, one year, we had a competition,
in that competition,
even B.Tech. students from the other departments came and participated.
Professor R. Srinivasan was very active as a quizmaster.
Many of the research scholars including Vijayan,
was there at that time. It was interesting.
But it did not continue for several years you know.
As Head of the Department, I had some interest in such things,
so I allowed it, I encouraged it rather, not then,
Prof. Sobhanadri: everybody will allow, only thing is if you encourage, there may... Ms. Mayarani: Yes.
Prof. Sobhanadri: people like Vijayan who will come forward to do such things. Ms. Mayarani: Yes.
So it is sustained for only few years
I think. After that now,
they…you don’t have any vibrations or any such things.
Prof. Vijayan: Other activities and there…yeah, Ms. Mayarani: There were…
this is the one of those…that old certificate.
Prof. Vijayan: That is Prof. Sobhanadri: That was in ‘84.
Senior Professor in Head of the Department
Prof. Vijayan: getting a certificate from a research scholar…that is the situation. Prof. Sobhanadri: That is what I am [indistinct]
That shows how the senior faculty members also participated
Prof. Sobhanadri: Participated. Prof. Vijayan: in these activities, interesting activities,
extracurricular activities in the department, with the enthusiasm.
No, I…I think the…that trend continued until the ‘90s also.
Only after the ‘90s, some change has
started coming in…like competition and things like that,
and once the 2000 year has come, it even more difficult.
Before 2000, it was different, before ‘95 it was different,
before 1960, it was even different.
Also, could you please tell your other experiences in the campus,
like we have a very nice campus and
what are the…like, other than teaching and research,
Ms. Mayarani: can you tell some good memories Prof. Sobhanadri: Yeah,
or good experiences that you have had in the
Ms. Mayarani: department. Prof. Sobhanadri: See and…those interests vary
Prof. Sobhanadri: from person to person; Ms. Mayarani: Yes.
Prof. Sobhanadri: There were some people who are interested to be wardens, Ms. Mayarani: Yes.
Prof. Sobhanadri: some people who are interested in games and sports. Ms. Mayarani: Yes.
Like that it varies you know,
I was not associated with wardenship
or any of those activities.
I used to take interest in sports;
outdoor games or indoor games, like that.
Prof. Vijayan: You have stayed… Prof. Sobhanadri: We…we used to have a staff club also,
even now it is there.
Prof. Vijayan: You had stayed in the campus with family for a number of years. Prof. Sobhanadri: Yeah.
I think probably your children were born and brought up here?
Right, right, all the children were educated in IIT only.
We had two schools at that time: Vanvani School was there,
even now, Vanvani School there, Central School is there, CBSE
even now it is there.
So all my daughters got educated in campus only.
Then for colleges, they went to city.
We had good colleges also.
And then, two of them studied in IIT also.
All…all of them worked in IIT, two of them studied M.Sc..
Prof. Vijayan: Oh, I see. Prof. Sobhanadri: One M.Sc. Chemistry,
and one M.Sc. Mathematics.
My eldest daughter Nirmala studied M.Sc. Mathematics.
Prof. Vijayan: Oh, I see.
She did M…actually, she worked in the Computer Centre also.
The Computer Centre I think 19…
What time? ‘80s.
Around that time, they got…
Prof. Sobhanadri: they got the IBM mainframe system. Prof. Vijayan: Yes, yes.
She just completed her M.Sc. and joined the Computer Centre.
She worked with the IBM mainframe, at that time.
Prof. Sobhanadri: The eldest daughter. Prof. Vijayan: Nice.
So…nowadays you may not be using the mainframe,
Prof. Sobhanadri: you may not know Prof. Vijayan: Yeah yeah.
also, what a mainframe is also.
That was the time when mainframe was there in the Computer Centre.
How was social life at that time with your family and other members?
Social life was much better because,
number was much less,
so, we know each other personally,
Ms. Mayarani: Yes. Prof. Sobhanadri: Even families,
they used to meet quite often also.
So, life is not very fast at that time.
So we had time to spare in the evening, sometimes meeting.
In their house, or in clubhouse, like that.
The buses, campus buses used to take people up to Adyar those days.
Prof. Sobhanadri: Correct. Prof. Vijayan: Some people used to go for shopping.
That is true.
Actually, in the beginning, I didn’t get the quarters.
We used to…we have a house in Adyar,
We used to stay there.
And once the quarters got ready, then I moved there.
That was ‘70s I think, ‘70s.
The first quarters I stayed was…now
you call it as a ‘doctor’s quarters’ I think, opposite Central School.
Prof. Sobhanadri: They have some quarters. Prof. Vijayan: Yes, yes.
In that, I stayed C1-10-20 I think that’s the number.
Sir, could you remember different projects that you were involved
with during your career…like different research projects.
We have a…I…there is a
Prof. Vijayan: Yeah, there is a list. Prof. Sobhanadri: There is a project,
Professor Subramaniam gave a project projection.
Prof. Sobhanadri: The…the project. Prof. Vijayan: The general outline of
Prof. Vijayan: major work. Ms. Mayarani: Outline… Prof. Sobhanadri: Yeah, yeah, the major project.
The…the project culture was not there in the beginning in IIT,
because it was newly started.
But somehow, I got this idea of
applying for projects and getting it.
I was the first person for the entire IIT to get projects.
Prof. Vijayan: Oh, I see. Prof. Sobhanadri: To think of projects.
Then the Director was also thinking, what to do with this project?
Who will organize them? Who will manage them?
So, they…they identified a Deputy Director,
there was no ICSR at that time.
So Professor Sampath was the Deputy Director.
He took part in,
and he also interested in…both of us have some common interests
also; microwaves, electronics and things like that.
So he was in charge of the project.
The first project was a CSIR project,
to develop the nuclear quadrupole resonance:
NQR. And that was a big success.
Then, I got another defence project,
that was for microwave…development of the microwave range.
That started the Microwave Laboratory actually.
So these two projects
were the first projects which were organized by the
department, and they were good.
The people have done very well,
they are doing very well.
You had colleagues like Professor Murthi and Professor Rama Rao,
Prof. Vijayan: you might have interacted with them at that time... Prof. Sobhanadri: Yeah, yeah.
Professor Rama Rao has joined when
Prof. Sobhanadri: the department has grown sufficiently well. Prof. Vijayan: Oh okay.
So he joined as a Assistant Professor
and he got…with some experience in US also,
Before coming here.
And I was working NQR till then, but his field was NQR,
so I didn’t take any other students after that on NQR.
NQR was completely developed by
Professor Rama Rao.
You can say that in those days,
myself, Professor S. B. S. Sastry,
Professor Y. V. G. S. Murthi,
Rama Rao…K. V. S. Rama Rao;
they were the young and active people in the department,
trying to take it forward.
Prof. Vijayan: What were your main hobbies apart from… Prof. Sobhanadri: Main hobbies
Prof. Sobhanadri: is playing indoor games like carroms and chess, Prof. Vijayan: Oh, oh I see.
Outdoor games like badminton, cricket, mainly.
Ms. Mayarani: Could you share some
Prof. Vijayan: Anecdotes, Ms. Mayarani: Yeah.
Prof. Vijayan: incidents. Ms. Mayarani: Yes, yes, incidents.
Yeah, yeah, I…I want to start from my childhood,
Prof. Sobhanadri: probably that is better. Ms. Mayarani: Yes, yeah,
See I was born and brought up in a small place
called Vijayawada. Now it is a big place.
It was Bezawada on those days.
I was born and brought up in Vijayawada.
I studied in the school…in those days,
we don’t have elementary school.
I went to the school first time in…for the 5th class.
So 5th to 10th class, we were in the school.
Then, that was a municipal high school.
Not any convent like what you have these days.
Telugu medium…Telugu medium.
But then, afterwards, I went to a college.
Private college; intermediate that is called…plus 2 is intermediate those days.
SRR and CVR College in Vijayawada.
So, that was the first 15 years of my life
staying in Vijayawada only,
studying in the school and the college and after that 1952,
I moved to Andhra University.
Andhra University ‘52 to ’62: 10 years.
At that time, it was a leading university…even now,
Prof. Vijayan: it is a…it has its name. Prof. Sobhanadri: Yeah, yeah,
it is…even now it is university.
About the main problem over the years is
IITs have developed as a cosmopolitan institute.
There you don’t think whether you belong to
Prof. Sobhanadri: Andhra or whether you belong to Prof. Vijayan: Yes, yes.
Tamil Nadu or…like that.
Whereas in the university, that culture has not gone fully.
Then there was one more thing that I noticed in the university,
the…there is a competition between people,
which was somehow very strong in those days.
I didn’t like it,
and that is why I have grown differently
when I joined IIT, see,
I never encouraged that in IIT.
See, for example, in those days,
Professor C. V. Raman was a big scientist.
If there is a student of Professor C. V. Raman,
he will control the whole country.
Professor Bhagavantam was his student.
My teacher was Professor Rangadhama Rao.
I have a photo also here.
I think I have given it to you.
Professor K. Rangadhama Rao.
He is the…he was a Principal,
Head of the Physics Department,
he is a well-known spectroscopist,
And he…he worked there until 1972.
So, Professor Bhagavantam,
Professor…I want to tell you olden time politics,
so that you also try to avoid those things these days.
When I come to the present day, I want to ins…
I want to suggest at least, that competition…
we are competing with the world around.
Prof. Sobhanadri: Not between the Vijayan and Subramanian. Prof. Vijayan: Yeah.
So, we must have that type of a [indistinct] whereas, in those days,
he is Professor C. V. Raman’s student
so all the students were taken by him.
So then he doesn’t have students to
even work with him.
So slowly the trend started…stopped.
Then, when he became Professor,
the trend also continued,
but we joined about that time…research scholar.
Then, I noticed and we also heard about this,
So we all made a decision that we should not behave like this.
There was no talking between two research scholars.
If you are working with [indistinct] Vijayan
and he is working with me, you don’t talk at all.
So that used to be the culture in the earlier days,
Prof. Sobhanadri: and that should be avoided even now. Prof. Vijayan: Yes.
Prof. Sobhanadri: See if it is there, Prof. Vijayan: Yeah.
you must take care of that.
It is not a bad…good thing…it is not a good thing.
So that is how he has been a good Professor, we liked him.
He continued only in spectroscopy
and then he started the Microwave Laboratory himself
in Andhra University, Microwave Laboratory was first started
in the country in Andhra University.
About that time, there was a…in North India, M. N. Saha and others
were there…these age group only.
They also thought of doing…Krishnaji, there are other Professors
also, but Microwave Lab idea came in Andhra University,
as a development of the spectroscopy.
Sir, it might have been very difficult as you earlier pointed out,
that, if you had to do a simple measurement,
you had to take your sample and go to another place
and do the measurement and come back.
So, what was the driving force which kept you
going with all the difficulties; whenever these kind of difficulties came?
That was only in the first 2 years, okay.
Prof. Sobhanadri: That is not…not the rest of the 30 years. Ms. Mayarani: Yes.
Only first 2 years,
when we were developing in IIT Madras,
Prof. Sobhanadri: buildings were not ready, what to do? Ms. Mayarani: Yes.
See, as he was telling,
M.Sc. Physics was started in 1964. ‘64 only,
Because ’62, the buildings have started construction,
the HSB block came only around ’63 -‘64.
Then, Electro…M.Sc. was started,
that is how I get the credit for doing the M.Sc. Electronics part.
First 2-3 years, I didn’t learn myself M.Sc. Electronics, as a student.
But, when the first batch came,
Prof. Sobhanadri: I was ready to take M.Sc. Electronics course. Prof. Vijayan: Okay.
It was started like that,
then in the HSB block 2nd floor, I think even now,
you have the Electronics Lab there probably.
I don’t know with the changes now,
we have the M.Sc. Electronics…M.Sc. Physics
course started at that time.
And so we were all the faculty members: myself,
S. B. S, Y. V. G. S., Professor Ramasastry was there,
Professor Ramaseshan also joined,
he was also taking the courses.
So it went on well,
so, since the equipment was not ready,
I got some data collected earlier.
That we used with the M.Sc. students also.
And for Ph.D., Hariharan who belongs to the first batch has to go to Kanpur.
Subsequently we have done in Madras itself.
We have an ESR Lab even now, you know,
Prof. Sobhanadri: with the AEG instruments is there, in Physics Department. Prof Vijayan: Physics.
Before that, the Special Instrument Lab was started.
That is by…RSIC. Now it has a different name
Prof. Sobhanadri: I think, Sophisticated Instrumental Lab. Prof. Vijayan: Yes.
There we got [indistinct] equipment.
Prof. Sobhanadri: Lot of equipment has come. Prof. Vijayan: Yes.
And we were the first people
Prof. Sobhanadri: to use that also, because of my experience in ESR, Prof. Vijayan: Yeah.
Prof. Sobhanadri: I was the person who used that instrument. Prof. Vijayan: Yeah.
In RSIC, in the Chemistry Department.
And Suryanarayana, Kumaraswamy,
they were the people who did ESR work.
When I was a student, we used to have lot of conferences here,
this is…this photo is from one of those conferences.
Both at national level and international level.
Prof. Vijayan: You may be remembering the first few conferences Prof. Sobhanadri: Yeah.
which were held.
See. in the first, we wanted to do a solid state physics conference,
by inviting people in the southern region
who are interested in develop solid-state physics.
So that was a small conference,
Professor Ramasastry took lot of interest in that.
People from Andhra University area came,
IISc also some people came,
Madras University people also came.
It was a good success,
because the number was less,
the people are really interested to learn
Prof. Vijayan: Yes yes. Prof. Sobhanadri: something and develop their own departments.
So it was a success,
and that is how it…the activities slowly improved.
The research scholars also would be inspired by hearing
Prof. Sobhanadri: Yeah, yeah that is right. Prof. Vijayan: these presentations and all.
Even M.Sc. students; we were volunteers in those
Prof. Sobhanadri: Correct, correct, correct. Prof. Vijayan: conferences.
We also were benefited by
being exposed to lectures by many participants,
junior scientists and senior professors and all that.
That is true.
Many of the M.Sc. students who were interested in these projects,
they were willing to develop the equipment also
Prof. Vijayan: Yeah, yeah. Prof. Sobhanadri: in those days, and so some
electronic computer is another…
the computer programming
has also developed very fast in the department.
I can say in ‘70s itself it started.
When Kumaraswamy was one of the research scholars,
He…he did in ESR,
Peof. Sobhanadri: he did M.Sc. also here. Prof. Vijayan: Oh.
He is senior to you.
Then, he developed a good a control of the computer software,
when the IBM instrument was there at the time.
That was the time when people from other department used to come here
Prof. Vijayan: Oh. Prof. Sobhanadri: and ask him,
Prof. Vijayan: Oh. Prof. Sobhanadri: Not the faculty.
Research scholar Kumaraswamy.
He used to tell them lot of things about how to do that.
In fact, he only helped in our Microwave Laboratory,
to construct, to convert the instrumentation
automatically to electronics.
Earlier, we were taking readings and doing it,
he developed some instrument.
He didn’t work on the microwave bench as such,
Prof. Sobhanadri: but the computer part he has developed. Prof. Vijayan: Okay.
So that is why, in the other laboratories also, these things have developed,
and some chemistry people use to come and interact also.
Chemistry has become a bigger department now,
but those days, they were also interacting with [indistinct].
Talking of the incidents and anecdotes,
you may be remembering the open house was which was
conducted when I was a student.
Yeah, yeah.
Prof. Vijayan: We also had put up something in the lab. Prof. Sobhanadri: Yeah, correct.
Thomas Thundat, who is a
renowned scientist now, Thomas Thundat and myself,
we were your students, project students.
Prof. Vijayan: And we had set up some antenna system, Prof. Sobhanadri: Correct.
Prof. Vijayan: where we sent the… Prof. Sobhanadri: That is correct, yes.
Prof. Vijayan: use microwaves as a modulating wave. Prof. Sobhanadri: Yes, yeah, yeah.
Yes, the…I think that it was close to the silver jubilee year
I think. You were here
Prof. Vijayan: Yes, yes, yes. Prof. Sobhanadri: at the time of silver jubilee,
Prof. Sobhanadri: you know. Prof. Vijayan: Yeah yeah
Close to the silver jubilee year, we wanted to have an open house,
in which developments in the department
were shown there.
Prof. Sobhanadri: One of the things is the parabolic antenna. Prof. Vijayan: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Prof. Sobhanadri: See, now you see Prof. Vijayan: We were assistants
Prof. Sobhanadri: everywhere parabolas, but those days it was a new thing. Prof. Vijayan: Yeah, yeah.
So we somewhere got a parabolic
Prof. Sobhanadri: antenna, put a microwave in, Prof. Vijayan: Yeah, yeah.
somebody who is speaking here,
somebody who is able to hear elsewhere.
Prof. Sobhanadri: There is no connection in the air also. Prof. Vijayan: Yes, yes, yes, yes.
Prof. Sobhanadri: I mean the direct connection is not there. Prof. Vijayan: Yeah, yeah.
So that was an exciting experiment.
Prof. Vijayan: Microwave propagation through atmosphere. Prof. Sobhanadri: Propagation through atmosphere, yes.
Prof. Vijayan: And we used to block it and show
Prof. Sobhanadri: Yeah, yeah. Prof. Vijayan: that…we used to play a song and the music stops when we
Prof. Sobhanadri: right, right that is correct. Prof. Vijayan: stop the
Prof. Vijayan: that was…that attracted lot of people in the open house. Prof. Sobhanadri: Yes, yes, yes.
That was the time when this parabolic antenna
concept was introduced. Of course it was a…extended.
Prof. Vijayan: Some of the people in this photo are here. Prof. Sobhanadri: Yeah
that is Kumaraswamy on the left side there.
He is Kumaraswamy, next is Jeyaraj,
next is Khanna…
That is our Hariharan, the first student,
next is myself.
The others are participants.
This lady was very helpful in the technical development of the…
Oh, oh, oh.
Mrs. Bharthi, she must be somewhere here, she is retired now.
Yes, yes, she was there, she work in the department for several years.
Jayashree was there, our T. S. Natarajan is there, you can see there.
Oh, this…this last.
Next to him…T. S. Natarajan, yes.
Prof. Vijayan: He is now Registrar of IIT Tirupathi after retirement from here. Prof. Sobhanadri: Yeah, yeah, correct.
This is another photo.
Prof. Sobhanadri: You can recognise. Prof. Vijayan: Professor Subramanian I can see, Professor Subramanian.
Prof. Sobhanadri: Professor V. R. K. Murthy, Professor Subramanyam, Prof. Vijayan: Yeah.
Professor Murugavel, Sivasubramaniam.
Prof. Sobhanadri: K. M. Prof. Vijayan: There is Professor V. R. K. Murthy at the middle,
Prof. Sobhanadri: Yeah, next to him is James. Prof. Vijayan: next is Professor Sivasubramaniam.
James is a Professor in the Central University Hyderabad now.
And he is in the Hyderabad University right.
Hyderabad University.
He is in Hyderabad University.
The two ladies are in TCS,
Prof. Sobhanadri: Madhurima is also here, he is the daughter of our V. S. Murthy. Prof. Vijayan: V. S. Murthy.
V. S. Murthy.
And Madhurima is now an Assistant Professor
in the…the Central University of Tamil Nadu.
Central University of Tamil Nadu, yes.
Next to Professor Sobhanadri.
So that was a good photo.
Long, long back.
Yeah, yeah this has got many people.
Sir, what do you think about the vision for future?
What kind of courses we should have for M.Sc.s,
should we change the classical style of teaching physics…
M.Sc. physics course, or the some electives should be there,
how…what is your view?
Now, first thing is, basics must be there,
so M.Sc. physics course by itself should be there.
And second year only the project part can be started.
Now you have so many areas.
Even vacation time, students are willing to
Prof. Vijayan: Yeah that is, Prof. Sobhanadri: work and learn it,
so they must use an extra time to learn that.
Not at the expense of the coursework.
Yes of course.
Coursework…unless you have a solid base,
you cannot, it takes a lot of readings,
Prof. Sobhanadri: you don’t know what is the meaning of the readings. Ms. Mayarani: Yes
That is how things are going.
So it is important
to give basic stuff.
For example, the five-year integrated course:
B.Tech. Engineering in Physics, has come.
It is an important course.
The many students are taking interest in that.
There are many students who are coming up very well also
in that, because they are learning
the subject first one or two years,
then, going into the physics and applications side.
So…academics should be always there you know,
that is important.
Do you have any other remembrances,
anecdotes or incidents which you would like to share?
So, we…we use to have a departmental seminar where
Prof. Sobhanadri: research scholars in…for the laboratory used to come and talk. Prof. Vijayan: Oh, yes yes yes.
All the others also used to
hear those lectures. That way, you will have advantage
for improving and interacting.
Nowadays, it is…you have to
Prof. Sobhanadri: have a good expression of what you have done. Prof. Vijayan: Yes.
If you just do silently, it is not advantage,
you must also express it clearly to others,
so that they will appreciate what you are doing it.
So a seminar is a very important thing that
should be encouraged.
What are the things the new students or
the newcomer here and new students here,
new generation won’t under…
we won’t remember is that we had lot of
collaboration and support from Germany.
For example, we have a visitor from Germany,
Prof. Vijayan: I am sure during your time also Prof. Sobhanadri: Yes, yes.
Prof. Vijayan: here a lot of people would have visited from Germany. Prof. Sobhanadri: We also used to have a lot of visitors from Germany,
And the…that also,
see, I think if I go back into the old thing,
there are two types of visits.
Some people who used to join IIT,
they look for a trip to Germany.
Because those days,
Prof. Sobhanadri: they used to give a DAAD Fellowship, Ms. Mayarani: Yes.
Prof. Sobhanadri: and they send you, one 3 months trip they used to send, Prof. Vijayan: Still some students...
so that you can learn something and do it here.
People used to go there…
3 months are over.
Not many have spent
Prof. Sobhanadri: usefully here. Prof. Vijayan: Successfully, yeah.
I…I have a small theory, whether this is correct or not…
whatever investment you do,
the benefit you see is out of 20 percent.
The rest of it…we have lot of population in the country.
Are you getting the benefit of all the people in the country? No.
If 20 percent of the people are good,
we are happy.
We can improve.
So the same thing continues with this also;
with the faculty also.
I mean I…I am not saying I am a very good faculty member,
there are many people much better than me also,
but you must always have a motivation
to do something that you can do to
grow the department, rather than spend the time here,
morning 10 to 4, and then go back.
That type of attitude if this 20 percent
can be made at 30 percent,
Prof. Sobhanadri: we may be better at least in the Asian part. South Asia is a... Prof. Vijayan: Yeah.
We are now competing with
Prof. Vijayan: Now we are… Prof. Sobhanadri: China, Japan
Korea. Korea is what…smaller than even Tamil Nadu.
But still, we use Korean cars.
We don’t use our own cars.
So this has to come out.
I have written an article long long back. See,
I think I gave it. It was pub...
‘Education in Universities.’
1984 or ’85; 30 years have gone.
Is there any improvement?
We have to see whether that improvement is there or not. Otherwise,
we have not progressed, you see.
‘Education environment in the universities.’
Universities is the place where you have more number of students.
IITs 5 are there, now 15 or 20
maybe there, but many of these students come out
from the universities. unless you have a good base in the
universities. Your population will not be good enough.
We hear about…
elections are over, people fight,
that type of a thing should be there only for improving the
country as a whole, not for “I should get it,
you should get it.” It is not for a personal interest.
That type of a culture should grow in the mind.
Then only, the country as a whole can improve.
Maybe…you have experience, like you have been to outside India and then,
you have seen different work culture and
Ms. Mayarani: you have worked outside India also. Prof. Sobhanadri: Yeah.
So, sir, what kind of difference did you feel from
working in IIT like…a system like IIT and outside India and
Prof. Sobhanadri: No, all said and done, Ms. Mayarani:Yeah.
Madras IIT has a cultural background which is still maintained.
Ms. Mayarani: Yes. Prof. Sobhanadri: If you go to other places,
some of the negative things that I am pointing out,
you see more prominently there.
So, we must be able to see that those things will not infiltrate into our
cultural atmosphere.
So, I don’t say that there is another place which is
very, very good and ours is very very bad.
The people inside must have the strong feeling
to improve upon that. See, in the earlier days,
We used to have some visitors from Germany.
They used to come, spend 3 months or 4 months,
after that they go away. Subsequently,
development is to be done by ourselves only,
Prof. Sobhanadri: we have to do that. Ms. Mayarani: (softly) Yes, yes.
For example, if I go back to my old association,
when I was in the department,
I used to interact with Chemistry Department,
very much.
I used to interact with the Electrical Engineering Department very much.
Because, we need chemicals for doing
Prof. Sobhanadri: the experiments. Ms. Mayarani: Yes.
They are the better people than us.
Electrical Engineering, they have some equipment, better than…
for example, this microwave bench,
when I joined, it was already existing
in Electrical Engineering Department.
They didn’t know how to open it.
Professor Sampath asked me to come there
and initiate the work. That is how we both have become
good interactions. He is [indistinct]
and he used to encourage me a lot.
So the first microwave experiment
I have done in Electrical Engineering Department.
Similarly, a few years later,
they used to have a set up called molecular beam epitaxy.
That was obtained by Professor Kakati.
And for some reason, he would not manage it,
and he left.
He came to me and requested me to take care of that project.
It was all in the boxes only at that stage.
Professor Indiresan was the Director of that time.
He somehow had a good impression about me,
and we have not met before
that, but the way our department was going on
and people are also interacting with me without quarrels,
he thought I may be able to do that.
So he advised me to take up that project.
So I was associated with the molecular beam epitaxy;
which is growing a thin film,
single crystal.
Prof. Vijayan: Okay. Prof. Sobhanadri: Single crystal thin films.
MBA, you must be all familiar
Prof. Vijayan: Yeah, yeah yes. Prof. Sobhanadri: now, you are all experts in this area.
At those time, we didn’t know what is MBA also.
I…I took the credit…not that I know MBA,
I went there, I learnt it, I took the help of
research scholars like you, [Indistinct]
was there.
Then, Suresh Babu was there.
I…we took the help of the research scholars,
myself, and worked hard.
and made the system work.
That was the credit
because that was the first time MBA was growing in the country.
Country as a whole.
Then, the person who worked in that,
he is now working in SSPL: Srinivasan.
Yes, yes, yes.
So, many of your students later become a good scientist all over.
The NPL administration…
Are you in touch with them still, now?
Oh, yes.
I am in touch with everybody.
Yeah, they had a get together last time,
Prof. Vijayan: a few years back with you remember that? Prof. Sobhanadri: Correct correct.
Yeah…Professor Subramanian and…yes…
Prof. Vijayan: Sir, this is the same Prof. Sobhanadri: What we have seen there,
Prof. Sobhanadri: Subramanian setting up the laboratory there, Prof. Vijayan: Yeah, yeah.
I…and I didn’t tell me…tell you that I have been abroad also, you know.
I have not told you.
I…I Doctor A. Ramachandran,
who built this Heritage building…
who advised, not that he…
Prof. Sobhanadri: he was behind this idea, you know. Prof. Vijayan: I see, yeah
He was the Director of IIT.
He called me one day,
everybody is going to Germany, DAAD Fellowship
and like that, “Why are you not going?”
Then I told him
“I want to develop my base here first,
then I want to go as a Humboldt fellow,
rather than a DAAD fellow.”
Prof. Sobhanadri: Humboldt is a prestigious. Prof. Vijayan: Yeah, it is more prestigious.
And then, after this first 3 years the laboratory has developed,
I applied for the Humboldt Fellowship, I got it.
I was the first to get in the science departments.
Engineering departments,
again, I am always critical about the engineering department,
not many engineers
are here. They used to go to DAAD Fellowship,
make a friend with the local German fellow,
Then after 1 year or so,
also ask for the Humboldt Fellowship.
Go there, they come back,
then they think oh
there are some dean vacancies or
something…Head of the Department vacancies,
let us go there.
So, there was no development in the laboratory,
there are many people like that.
I used to tell them directly, not that I am telling here today.
I used to tell them, “You must develop this here
rather than going there and coming back.”
So, coming back,
when Doctor Ramachandran was the Director,
I told him that I will not go
unless…I will develop these two labs,
I will go by Humboldt Fellowship.
I went to Humboldt Fellowship to Germany.
That Professor is not shown here, Professor [indistinct]
is the name. I worked there in NQR,
because I just finished Ramamohan’s work here,
I went there, worked on NQR...that was bromine.
Here we did chlorine, there we did bromine, NQR.
So it was the next step.
Chlorine is a 30 megahertz; this is 100 - 150 megahertz.
Prof. Sobhanadri: Electronics is very difficult. Ms. Mayarani: Yes yes.
Prof. Sobhanadri: It is…in those days. Prof. Vijayan: Yes, yes.
So, I worked there and came back, but then,
by the time, Rama Rao, K. V. S. Rama Rao has joined here.
So I thought NQR let him do, and I concentrated on…this…
Prof. Vijayan: Magnetic resonance. Prof. Sobhanadri: Magnetic resonance and Microwave Laboratory,
mostly Microwave Laboratory.
Subsequently also, I went there.
That was when I developed this molecular dynamics
Prof. Sobhanadri: involving polymers. Prof. Vijayan: Yes.
In the subsequent visit to Germany, I went there
Prof. Sobhanadri: and molecular dynamics part was developed, Prof. Vijayan: Yeah.
both, there were some students who worked on that.
Many others in the department also got interested; K. Srinivasan,
he also got interested in that.
So it was developed in a very big way in the department.
Prof. Vijayan: It became a very important branch of study. Prof. Sobhanadri: Branches yeah.
Whatever we see there,
we should also keep…think of developing here,
Prof. Sobhanadri: and then, when our areas increase, Prof. Vijayan: Yes, yes.
now, today you can think of many people…nanoparticles you have come.
Prof. Vijayan: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Nanoparticles was not there at that time,
but slowly one molecule,
small particle, nanoparticle, we have gone in steps.
Like that we have gone.
Similarly, when I went to Germ…US,
Prof. Sobhanadri: that was after I completed my headship…‘85 I think. Prof. Vijayan: Yes.
I went…sabbatical was there in those times.
One year I can go, with salary being paid here.
I went to Notre Dame, University of Notre Dame.
That is where we developed this idea of semiconductors and microwaves
combining together.
That idea was there earlier even in India,
And DSA has given me a project for that.
Vaidynathan, was the person who started that work.
Then, when I got this opportunity, you go to Notre Dame,
I went there, you see an equipment there.
Prof. Sobhanadri: Subramanian was starting…standing there. Prof. Vijayan: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah. That was the equipment that we have developed.
I think I have given a photograph also
where I actually worked in USA.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Prof. Sobhanadri: This is the one. Prof. Vijayan: Yeah.
Prof. Sobhanadri: This is the one, Prof. Vijayan: Yeah
Prof. Vijayan: Yeah, yeah. Prof. Sobhanadri: this is not in India, that was in US.
Prof. Sobhanadri: Notre Dame Laboratory. Prof. Vijayan: Oh, oh.
That is where the microwave wing…they use to develop a cavity,
and the cavity…they are chemistry people.
They worked on organic liquids:
The excited state of the organic liquids.
Since I was already thinking of the semiconductor and exciting it,
Prof. Sobhanadri: we have developed the cavity technique also in… Prof. Vijayan: Yes.
Madras also. I say…I told them, “Let me try with semiconductors.”
Those people were thinking what semiconductors and this,
they don’t go together.
But somehow, they had some confidence in me,
and allowed me to work on that.
This same technique I used by semiconductors.
Zn3P2 zinc phosphide, that is what Suresh Babu developed here,
while working in CSD.
The molecular beam epitaxy and hot wall epitaxy,
two techniques were used for developing thin films.
Zn3P2 was developed here.
Some of the films I took there, and with that,
we did work and of course,
we check on silicon other things, it worked.
Then I wanted to do with the one we have developed here,
it worked very well.
And that was the thing which Subramanian developed in subsequent 5 years.
Oh oh.
There was only 5 years left
before I retire, and he developed that year.
The other thing is,
these liquid part also we have done here.
Before retirement,
I got an excimer laser to the department.
I don’t know whether it is there or not.
Prof. Vijayan: Ah, it’s there.
Excimer laser; that is meant for organic liquids, excited state.
Arathi Rani was working on that.
So we excited the chemical fluorenone was a liquid that we used.
Excited it, we studied both microwave part and also the optical part.
Optical part is also another area that we have developed
by that Notre Dame,
that is copied here also.
He was able to do it here also.
Optical absorption…
for…you…you must be also understanding it very well, say.
Optical absorption as you do from one end to the other end,
Prof. Sobhanadri: you also do the excitement. Prof. Vijayan: Okay.
Laser pulse, you use.
Prof. Sobhanadri: And then, you find out how the time decay is. Prof. Vijayan: Okay okay.
So that part we have done here also.
So that was another thing which is going anywhere,
now coming to what is going on
Prof. Sobhanadri: at the moment here is, this lasers has come very fast Prof. Vijayan: Yes.
In IIT, after my first use of that one.
Chemistry people have overtaken us today.
The reason is chemicals are in their hands.
Prof. Vijayan: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
All the new chemicals, they…they can make it,
do the experiment.
Earlier days, when I was a student,
chemistry people used to come to us.
For taking a spectrum, they don’t know how to take the spectrum,
they used to bring a molecule and do this one,
now, they know both.
If you take our Subramaniam or Manoharan,
Prof. Sobhanadri: They know chemistry as well as instrumentations, Prof. Vijayan: Yes, yes.
Prof. Sobhanadri: They don’t have to depend on the physics people. Prof. Vijayan: Right, right.
Whereas physics people don’t know the chemistry part much.
So as the years passed,
In IIT also, chemistry has become a better department
than physics as far as spectroscopy is concerned.
Spectroscopy, I will say.
Now, situation is changing slowly,
Prof. Vijayan: we have an ultra-fast spectroscopy setup now, Prof. Sobhanadri: Right.
Prof. Vijayan: with an ultra-fast femtosecond laser and all. Prof. Sobhanadri: Right.
Prof. Vijayan: So chemists are coming here to do their samples and all Prof. Sobhanadri: Chemists are coming to help.
Yeah, in other words,
it goes to the first thing that I am saying;
Prof. Sobhanadri: it has to be interdisciplinary only. Prof. Vijayan: Yeah
Prof. Vijayan: that is what I was coming to, yeah, yeah. Prof. Sobhanadri: You are strong in one point,
they are strong in another point, if you all combine together,
something great will come out.
Prof. Vijayan: You will be happy to hear that Prof. Sobhanadri: I will.
Prof. Vijayan: now, we have our interdisciplinary research there. Prof. Sobhanadri: Yes, yes.
The institute has introduced…
they…they take students to interdisciplinary research directly,
not through the department
Prof. Sobhanadri: Very good, very good. Prof. Vijayan: and then…anything like that.
Prof. Vijayan: So two guides from different departments can come together, offer a project Prof. Sobhanadri: Department yeah, yes yes.
Prof. Sobhanadri: Very good, very good, very good.. Prof. Vijayan: and the students is directly admitted to that.
So there is a strong interdisciplinary research component nowadays.
That’s very good, that’s very good.
Is there any other general advice you would like to give to researchers,
research scholars, teachers?
No…that is what I have been telling you every time
you know, that don’t quarrel among yourselves, that is the first thing.
Research scholars also by talking with other group of the research scholars,
they will learn what they are doing. The subject is a very broad,
you can’t read yourself and learn; time is short.
Nowadays, you are not having enough time to sleep also.
That is the next problem you see,
you must have good sleep also but
people are sleeping at 12 O’clock,
getting up at 6 O’clock. That type of thing is too much,
Prof. Sobhanadri: the…there must be a balanced way of doing it. Prof. Vijayan: Yes yes.
Prof. Vijayan: Balanced mind could be. Prof. Sobhanadri: Balance is very very important.
We…I…you are asking me whether I used to play games?
I used to think of going to the club and play after 5 or 6.
Nowadays, you don’t have time for that,
you say you want to be always before the computer,
you do something or other. So…
I will just make a note on the thing which you had
just mentioned, that you will be
very happy to know that now in our department,
we have a research scholars open seminar series
where only the research scholars
come together and every once in a month,
Ms. Mayarani: we discuss what to first do. Prof. Sobhanadri: Good good.
If it is going on, I am happy.
Ms. Mayarani: Yes, yes, yes, yeah, so it is like…yeah Prof. Sobhanadri: See I didn’t know that it is, should be active.
last…this semester we have started this.
Very good that is very good, very good.
Now, we…he…Professor Sobhanadri continues
his association with the department even now,
and the latest very happy incident is that he would like to give
an award to one of the students,
Prof. Vijayan: can you please tell us about the thought behind it and yes start. Prof. Sobhanadri: Yeah.
See at the…at the time of the golden jubilee,
that was when some money was collected,
Prof. Sobhanadri: they have instituted a prize. Prof. Vijayan: Yes.
Prof. Sobhanadri: That is for the integrated course you know, integrated course. Prof. Vijayan: Yeah, yeah.
Which is 5-year…
Prof. Vijayan: Yeah. Prof. Sobhanadri: they are JEE students; the 3 students have come out of it already,
I am in touch with those 3 students also.
They are all doing Ph.D.,
they are academically coming up very well.
All of them from IIT Madras,
they are doing…IISc one is there, one is in USA,
another is also in IIT Hyderabad, I think.
They are coming up very nicely.
Prof. Vijayan: That is the recent one.
The recent one is…you see…I…I…say well…
if I have come up like this,
it is only because of my parents.
When I was studying in…my father studied B.Sc. with B. Ed.
That means you are good to be a teacher.
Then, he joined a Municipal High School in Vijayawada.
He became a teacher.
While studying, he was a…Professor Bhagavantam
and himself, were doing together.
They studied B.Sc. and B. Ed. together, they worked in a to…school,
then he wanted to do MA also.
After marriage, they came to Madras,
Prof. Sobhanadri: Studied in Madras Christian College, finished MA, Prof. Vijayan: Oh.
Again came back to Vijayawada,
and continued as a teacher only.
Those days, the family wanted to be together, there were 4 brothers,
all the 4 brothers were in Vijayawada, they continued there.
But when it came to us,
he wanted that I should do beyond that.
So, when I finish my…intermediate,
he encouraged me to go to Andhra University,
complete up to doctorate.
I didn’t get the fellowship like what you people get in the…
I took some 6 months before I got my…they call it “demonstrator.”
I became a demonstrator after 6 months,
but until then, my father only supported me.
That’s how I could do my doctorate.
Later on I got government of…some scholarships I got and it continued.
So, initial stages, the parents’ support is very very important.
And that has motivated me to see that even other students,
there may be different types of people,
So we should try to encourage, support, motivate others also.
So I never had any quarrel with whoever is working with me.
If I…when I…when I was doing my doctorate,
I completed my work in first 2 years itself.
My friend has to still complete another 6 months.
But I was acting I…I was doing something else or other,
Prof. Sobhanadri: both of us completed and submitted together. Prof. Vijayan: I see.
So that is how I developed the interaction of a good relationship.
Human relationship, you see. He joined Defence Laboratories.
I joined IITs. He has become Deputy Director,
I have become equally good here, so…
Prof. Vijayan: Sir, this award is in…in remembrance of your father. Prof. Sobhanadri: This award is in remembrance of my father and mother
who encouraged me to study well,
and continue up to doctorate.
Then I…when I told my father I was working as a lecturer in Andhra University…
the basic was 210 at the time.
I got a UGC fellowship that was 500.
So, they relieved me from the lectureship,
and I joined as UGC fellow…500.
When I came to interview for IIT, IIT also is 210 only for Lecturer.
210 was the basic at that time.
Then I told them I am getting 500 already,
so they said…they didn’t argue anything at all,
they said we will pick your basic higher.
That is what they put the basic higher.
That is a different thing you see, you feel happy to say that.
So my father felt very happy that I got in IIT Madras
because, he also studied in Madras Oh.
Christian College. When we were in Madras, parents came here,
he took me to Christian College area,
and then…Triplicane; where they stayed there,
showed me the place, so that was something exciting is there.
It is old experiences.
Prof. Vijayan: [indistinct]…students. Prof. Sobhanadri: That is the reason why
Prof. Sobhanadri: I wanted to institute a prize. Prof. Vijayan: Yes.
See I…I will tell you one more thing; I am a pensioner,
many people even in Adyar asking me if I go to IIT they ask me,
“What sir are you getting still some pension?”
Because they…those people know that
I am getting some money…otherwise,
I do…how do I go in an auto or something like that?
That type of thing they used to…they…they…they realization now.
Maybe hereafter pensions may not be there,
by the time, rules may change.
So, because of…I am getting a lot of money from the pension,
I always feel like contributing. That is why I ask all of these
people, “What are you doing?” Not because I want to know it,
I feel that I…then I can say that, “Oh, I am doing something in IIT.”
I ask you, “What are you doing in your lab?” That is the idea of that.
So, with that idea, this fellowship was…
Prof. Vijayan: It is actually a very nice gesture,
I am sure it will encourage a lot of students.
Prof. Sobhanadri: I hope this year it will come…2018 competition… Prof. Vijayan: Yeah.
I hope it will come. I have written both the names of my parents.
Prof. Vijayan: Yes, yes, yes, yes.
Prof. Vijayan: There is a committee which looks after that,
Prof. Sobhanadri: Yeah. Prof. Vijayan: they will do the needful to do that.
Thank you all very much for listening to me, you see,
Prof. Vijayan: It is a [indistinct] Prof. Sobhanadri: you have given me some idea to go back to history.
I can talk like this for some more time probably,
but we have to say enough for now.
Prof. Vijayan: So overall you are happy to see the progress. Prof. Sobhanadri: [Indistinct]…also you are there to take care.
Yes, yes, yes.
Prof. Vijayan: So overall I…I hope that you are very happy to see the developments Prof. Sobhanadri: [coughs]
in your lab and the department
Prof. Vijayan: and institute also. Prof. Sobhanadri: In the department…department here.
Prof. Sobhanadri: If the department grows only IIT also grows, Prof. Vijayan: Yes.
this is not just one lab.
Right, right, right, right, okay.
Now, theoretical people also are there.
There is a big group,
Professor Balakrishnan joined when I was Head of the Department,
then, Professor Balakrishna took charge of the
development of the theoretical group.
Prof. Sobhanadri: There is a big theoretical group also. Prof. Vijayan: Yes, yes.
I only wish there is a good interaction between the
Prof. Sobhanadri: theoretical group and the experimental group also. Prof. Vijayan: It is there now, it is there now,
Prof. Sobhanadri: It should be there, I am happy about it. Prof. Vijayan: people are interacting together.
That was the thing, when Professor Balakrishnan joined,
it was continued there.
See this is an interesting thing,
the…I was telling you about my American visit, in ‘94-‘95.
I have…microwaves we have started several things:
dielectrics, polymers…
Prof. Vijayan: Yes, semiconductors. Prof. Sobhanadri: Only microwave spectroscopy would not succeed.
So, one of the Indo-American projects is on microwave spectroscopy.
I did…I went there, did some experiments, collected data.
But I told the person there that I am retiring so, keep the data with you.
He kept all the data with him,
and published a paper recently, where is that?
Prof. Vijayan: Oh. Prof. Sobhanadri: First page:
that is the work that I have done in ‘95
Prof. Vijayan: Microwave rotational spectroscopy. Prof. Sobhanadri: before retirement, published in 2011.
Prof. Vijayan: Lovas and Sobhanadri, hmm.
That is…see, some people will say you have gone,
I will publish myself, he didn’t do that.
Prof. Vijayan: Yeah, he has given you credit for your work. Ms. Mayarani: Given yeah.
He…he asked for Subramaniam, I think.
Where is this gentleman who retired from your IIT?
Then he got my ID,
he took it, then we were corresponding for 1 year.
Prof. Vijayan: Oh, this is 2015. Prof. Sobhanadri: ‘15.
Prof. Vijayan: Oh, you have published a paper in 2015, Prof. Sobhanadri: ‘15, yes.
oh, that is nice to see that.
Of the work done before retirement.
And in this context,
you maybe be remembering my small project with you
Prof. Vijayan: on microwave spectroscopy. Prof. Sobhanadri: Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
Prof. Vijayan: Tried to build a microwave spectrometer. Prof. Sobhanadri: That is right. It was published…
it was there in…I have seen it in…
Prof. Vijayan: Yeah, it is here, inside the journal:
Prof. Vijayan: Journal of Molecular Spectroscopy, 2015.
Yeah, yeah.
Prof. Vijayan: F. J. Lovas and J. Sobhanadri.
Right, right.
What you require is also…I also gave you something
Prof. Sobhanadri: about vibrations in the…in that I have noted down. Prof. Vijayan: Yes, yes, yes…yeah, yeah, yeah, okay okay.
Prof. Sobhanadri: Your…your thing. Prof. Vijayan: Yeah.
Okay. thank you,
many old memories are coming now.
If you keep talking like this, some more memories also will come.
One of the students, he is now the Chief Secretary of Tamil Nadu,
Prof. Vijayan: Yes, yes M.Sc. student…no. Prof. Sobhanadri: Girija, Girija, she did M.Sc. here.
Prof. Vijayan: Chief Secretary…chief secretary. Prof. Sobhanadri: She did M.Sc. here.
When I was the Head of the Department,
I used to have every year interaction with the M.Sc. students,
at the end of the year, at the time of the convocation.
3…3-4 years.
So there all the students also remember me.
I…I used to have this weakness even the earlier days,
even if they don’t belong to my laboratory,
like Vijayan was telling, I used to interact with them.
So those…they have gone…
IAS…she has selected to IAS,
Prof. Sobhanadri: then, she is the Chief Secretary of Tamil Nadu. Prof. Vijayan: Yes,
Prof. Vijayan: now she is. Prof. Sobhanadri: She could not come of course, this…there.
Okay, so there are many people who went to police also.
One of the Police Secretary…retired as Secretary of Andhra Pradesh.
He did M.Sc. here, M.Sc. Physics.
Anyway, it has been a very encouraging session for all of us.
So as a student and researcher,
Prof. Vijayan: I hope you have been inspired by this session. Ms. Mayarani: Yeah, yeah, yes, yes.
But do you have anything more to add?
So, no I…in fact, I was much inspired by the fact that
he was very much keen on interacting with other people in the department,
Yeah, yeah.
and, in fact, yeah, like I pointed out, we are still following it sir, like
Prof. Sobhanadri: Yeah. Ms. Mayarani: We still have interaction groups
Ms. Mayarani: where research scholars interact. Prof. Sobhanadri: Yes yes,
that is easiest way of learning also.
Ms. Mayarani: Yes, yes. Prof. Vijayan: Yeah, yeah.
And that was like…that actually
give us insight into the fact that it is not just your work or your
Ms. Mayarani: research, it is…it’s about all… Prof. Sobhanadri: Right right.
Ms. Mayarani: everybody’s work and research and growing as a team, Prof. Sobhanadri: All yes, yes, yes, yes.
Ms. Mayarani: or as a department, or as an institute Prof. Sobhanadri: Right.
Ms. Mayarani: is the take home message which…yeah. Prof. Sobhanadri: Very important thing. Yeah.
Yeah, that is self…that is actually a very good
take home message from Professor Sobhanadri’s interaction with us.
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Prof. M.A. Veluswamy in conversation with Prof. M.S. Shunmugam
On behalf of Heritage Centre
let me welcome Professor Veluswami
for this programme Oral History
and welcome professor.
Thank you Professor Shunmugam.
You you joined this-
since you are one of the senior most
professor’s of this institute.
When you joined this institute
where was this institute located?
Was it in this present campus
or it was in a different campus?
The campus on record belong to the institution
but it was not possible at that time to do any
office or classes anything, so,
it started in the CLRI building adjacent.
our Director’s Office, Register’s office.
the entire administrative offices
were all in CLRI auditorium.
And the stage was given to the faculty.
There is a faculty room
that is how it was started.
The inauguration if I remember,
I understand that the inauguration stone was 31st July of 1959
but I was in the campus on where the inauguration took place
on 17th August 1959 maybe
that was again a formal inauguration, I do not know.
That was done by Professor L. S. Chandrakant
who was the special officer to Government of India
very specifically for IIT Madras
who happened to be the elder brother
of L. S. Srinath who happened to be the Director later.
Right sir you are do you remember the
interview in which you were selected
because you you are working elsewhere-
Yeah. before coming here. Right.
If I memory goes right.
Right. You are in the state government.
Yeah. At that time. Ok. I will.
Can you tell how you now came up. Came ok. Yeah.
Immediately after my B.E.
in those days before even you get the degree the
offer of appointment was available.
But B.E. you did in PSG College of Technology.
PSG College of Technology. Right sir.
Because in those days.
I belonged to Salem district old Salem district.
Right. I was put in Kakinada.
My parents were not willing to send me to Kakinada.
So,I joined
PSG College of Technology that was the first college in the country
as a private college. Right.
Almost it started in 59.
It started in 51.
51 ok right. It is actually
first batch entered in 51.
they graduated in the year 1955.
Right sir.
I belong to the second batch.
Entered into 52 then graduated in the year 1956.
Earlier I was a student in Loyola College in intermediate.
Intermediate. Loyola College of-
Loyola College. of Nungambakkam Chennai. Chennai.
ok right right. Nungambakkam.
There it was only intermediate in those day.
there wasn’t anything like PUC or plus 2 or any such thing.
That was the system continued
ever since the British started that way.
Somehow still I feel that system is far better
it is that my opinion
because if you. Right want me to
to give opinion. Things, things change right anyway yeah.
After that I joined PSG College of Technology.
graduated in the year 1956.
Then when we were writing the final exam
the offer of appointment when the government PWD came
because I was a mechanical engineering.
I mean I I just did the
work in mechanical engineering discipline
So, there wasn’t any Department
for Mechanical Engineering in those days.
Civil engineering and electrical engineering
had their own departments for work.
There were only 3 branches available at that time:
civil, mechanical, electrical engineering.
So, mechanical engineers
didn’t have any department from the government
for them to have the employment
So, PWD or electrical department
depending upon their necessities,
they absorbed them.
So, I was given a job in
civil engineering background in PWD.
I was posted in public health area.
I was posted in Sivakasi in Ramnad district
where the flood came
like what we found in Kanyakumari now.
It was a very very bad flood
which made a lot of damages.
Even the actor and actresses like
Gemini Ganesan and Savitri were
not known whether they were alive or not even
in Rameshwaram.
There was a bad condition. Is it Ariyalur-
something to do with Ariyalur. Right. Train accident. Right.
Around that time. Right. right
So, 55. 55
So, 56 is my graduation so, I was posted.
Earlier, there were some
people the Revenue Department
who took care of that sort of thing.
So, there was no technical person
was available I was the first technical person
employed in public health engineering.
Our main work was in the rural villages.
the scheme was it is
called a Rural Water Supply and Sanitation Scheme.
There the protected water supply
should be given to the village people
instead of making their own vessels to go into the-
directly to the well and then take it
and make the water to be infected,
the water the well should be covered.
Water should be pumped to the overhead tank
and from the overhead tank.
Through the distributed pipes.
the water should be taken in the taps
that is how the scheme was.
I did about 450 such works.
In the district of Ramanathapuram,
at that time Ramanathapuram
that got split into many districts now.
But. So, that was the period
from 1959 sorry 56 to 59.
59, 3 years almost
3 years 3 years. You worked in. 3 years.
And then the- Then,
I I I enjoyed the work
simply because of the fact
a lot of learning was there.
Being a mechanical engineer,
I had the opportunity to select
the machineries for pumping chlorinator.
How to give tender
and then how to choose the machine,
such opportunities were available
so, I enjoyed that.
You must have been very thorough with the-
Yeah. procedures.
Right. More than anything-
Right.
and besides. How- how it occurred that you came to IIT?
I will tell you. Yeah.
Cogently if I tell you. Right sir. It would be. Right. Understand.
So, how to design the foundation,
how to even choose the soil
for getting the foundation
for the overhead tank pump house and all that was my job.
So, you prepare the estimate,
get it sanctioned
execute it yourself.
It is the enjoyment was your own estimate.
you finally, see that
it is working that was a joy.
So, that made me to continue
without even worrying about going elsewhere.
So, in during that period.
I had some difficulties in the sense
there was an interference from the revenue department.
They were technically interfering.
One example I will try to give if-
if you think it is necessary. Yeah, please please sir.
There was a village where in
we had to put about 2 HP motor
for pumping water to the overhead tank from the well
and the Panchayath Board President who was
a very qualified person he asked me
would this be alright sir? I said yes.
Then, he said, can we do that?
I told him there is a 3 HP motor available, English make
which has already been bought by my predecessors
so, the government regulation is to install that first
before buying elsewhere because
government contributed to that cost
and besides that was a higher horse power.
The power is more,
it was cheaper
because the money has to be divided.
25 percent by the villagers,
25 percent by the state government
and 50 percent by the government.
So, the 2HP motor was
costlier than the existing 3HP motor.
So, we erected
and everybody was happy.
Then later on
some villagers induced the
Panchayat Board President and he said
it was wrongly installed
because the consumption of electricity will be more
because it is 3 HP motor.
I explained to him it is not.
Then, this was challenged
and then, there was a Sub-Collector
who said I am a Physics honors man, don’t tell me.
I was very much angry.
I was very young
and somebody challenged when all these things are there.
I was interested in learning.
So, I said if Physics honors can manage.
My job is unnecessarily given here.
Then, immediately I wrote to the chief engineer saying that
this is what has happened
so, I would like to
make me go you kindly make me go elsewhere.
I like to learn,
because I was just about 23 years 24 years old.
Then, this was known to the Collector.
He he knew what exactly was the difficulty.
C. V. R. Panikar
and then, he interfered and pacified me.
But that started me
to think of leaving the department.
There was also another incidence.
There was a certificate holder engineer,
a work was very well be
doing it for 2 years.
After the completion of the work
it was beautiful, there was
any problem at all.
He inspected
and then said that it is a colossal waste
which pricked me a lot.
Then please ask the villagers was any problem?
Villagers were very happy
that was a diesel engine run pump
because there wasn't any electricity there at that time.
So, I asked him why is that colossal waste.
Then he said I am an executive engineer
say do what I say.
With the certificate asserted holder- Holder yeah.
He he was- became executive engineer. By promotion came. Ok.
So, these were such a some other things
which made me to feel that I cannot grow there.
So, I felt that earliest opportunity is better to go.
So, I had already applied for Bhilai Steel Plant.
At that time
he steel plants were very popular.
I was asked to come for an interview at Delhi
for making me to go to Russia.
Then, when I went there
the department did not give me the permission
to leave the department.
But orally they said if you want to attend the interview,
please attend.
So, I attended.
Everybody was even filling up the
forms for passport and all that.
I was a alone fellow,
was very much disappointed because
I was not even interviewed
simply because they didn’t carry the letter from the
department permission. No objection. No normally they expect
no objection certificate. Right.
So, I came all the way
from Delhi to Chennai
with a very big disappointment.
Straight went to the PWD office,
told them this is what is my future
going to be barred
could you not help me?
He said if that is the case
we will give you the permission.
You can again appear
next time whenever an interview takes place.
So, the permission letter was given
but no such interview immediately was taking place.
So, while they were preparing that letter of permission
I came to Engineering College Guindy
just because I had time.
I met that in the morning met the officer in the morning
and they said that you collect it in the evening.
So, during that time
being a bachelor didn’t have any other work
and Chennai was not this big at that time
So, I just came to College of Engineering in Guindy.
There there was an advertisement
we are going to start post-graduate course
in Internal Combustion Engineering.
So, that attracted me because
when I was working there in the Rural Water Supply Scheme
there were lot of internal combustion engineering
problems I faced
Particularly vibrations and
the life of engine and all that.
So, that was also challenged by
some other people who were above me.
So, that attracted me.
I immediately was willing to join the course
and I forgot about the Bhilai Steel Plant.
I decided
not to go to Bhilai Steel Plant even if
there is an interview that is going to come later.
So, fortunately I was given admission
Professor A. P. Jambulingam was the
professor in charge of the Internal Combustion Engineering
and that was very much well monitored by
our Professor Ramachandran
who happened to be in
Indian Institute of Science at that time.
So, that was a very happy thing.
We did not know
later that he himself would become a Director to us.
So, it was a very well monitored course.
I attended, I was the first batch student.
There is a gentleman called-
there was a gentleman called Professor Ramani
who happened to be my classmate.
Later on he became also a colleague of mine.
We both attended interview
at that time in Vice Chancellor’s office.
The interview normally used to
take place only in the Vice Chancellor’s office where
Professor Lakshmanaswami Mudaliar was the Vice Chancellor.
He happened to be the Chairman of this institute also,
That is how Professor Sengupto was a member.
Professor Lakshmanaswami Mudaliar was the Chairman.
So, we got the interview.
first interview was for the Department of Applied Mechanics.
There wasn’t any
faculty at all. So, after completing the
IC engine programme to-
No first there there were series of interviews.
A few interviews taken place of each department. But you are still pursuing
your post-graduate programme in IC engines.
No. I was by that time-
ok before even
I had a career, I forgot to mention that.
Immediately after the PWD, I joined the
Internal Internal Engineering Department,
Internal engineering. Combustion internal- Internal engineering
PG. But then, I was a student.
Full time since by that time
I resigned the PWD. It used to be a 2-year programme?
2-year programme. 2-year programme.
During the time.
while I was about to write the dissertation
I was recruited
in Regional Engineering College, Warangal.
Oh. As a lecturer.
So, Professor Jambulingam felt happy
that you please accept it.
Then he got the permission
that I could join the college later
after I finished my dissertation.
The college also accepted after all
when a person gets a degree it is good to the college.
So, after finishing the course,
I joined
Warangal Regional Engineering College
in the Department of Mechanical Engineering as a lecturer,
then I was very happy there.
People cooperated,
excellent institution.
Then, about 6 months later,
during the period of 6 months,
I was feeling a little uneasy simply because
what is the further development for me.
That was a newly started college,
there wasn’t any programme further.
So, I wasn’t sure
whether it is good for me to continue there.
So, I met the principal.
The principal felt sorry that I I should not leave the
institution immediately because
you just joined only 6 months back.
then I met Professor C. V. R. Murty
who happened to be the Director of Technical Education.
I told him whose son only
died in a aeroplane crash.
Who was at at Adyar.
You might have probably recollected.
A very nice gentleman and he said
well, if you don't mind
you would like to resign
because we can’t forward your application
to apply elsewhere if you want to go.
I I resigned.
Then I was jobless for about a month till
an the interview was given for we arrange for IIT Madras.
So, I stayed in Chennai.
The interview was at Vice Chancellor’s office Chennai.
Professor Ramani who happened to my classmate
and I we both applied
and Professor Ramani applied to the
Department of Mechanical Engineering
whereas, I applied to both applied mechanics
and mechanical engineering on the fear
I was jobless
because Professor Ramani had a job already in MIT.
So, he didn’t mind
only restricting himself to mechanical engineering.
So, I didnt want to take a risk
So, I applied to both the departments.
The first trip- interview was
for the Applied Mechanics Department
on on one particular day.
Then, the interview was over.
I didn’t know the results and all that.
Professor Natarajan was the Registrar at that time.
R. Natarajan who passed away recently.
Then, I came out
there wasn’t any news about the selection or so.
Next day was the
interview for the Department of Mechanical Engineering lecturer.
Both Ramani and myself applied.
I mean went off for the interview.
We were only praying that both of us should be taken
because we both were very dear colleagues.
We didn’t want to miss each other.
So, both attended the interview,
for a long time we did not know the results.
Then, I went home to the village.
One fine morning, I
got the letter saying that you are selected
the applied mechanics.
The second day when I went for the
interview for the mechanical engineering,
Ramani was interviewed.
When I went inside
there were some sort of talk within the members.
Then there wasn't any question asked at all for me
during the mechanical engineering interview.
I was sent out.
So, I decided that I was not qualified.
I was not selected.
So, with a disappointment instead of
remaining at Chennai,
I went to my village.
I was thinking of
making some sort of entrepreneurship
or something like that of that kind.
So, I didn’t want to idle
because being young
I was interested to know what should I do.
So, when that was the thought
all of a sudden there was a turning point.
The appointment order straight away came.
Then later on I asked Professor Natarajan,
why is that that
I was not interviewed on the next day in mechanical engineering?
He smiled and told
we had selected you already in the
applied- Department of Applied Mechanics in the previous day. Yeah.
We did not want to have the confusion.
we did not want you to have the choice.
We wanted to have the choice ourselves.
So, that is what he- Was Professor- told me.
Ramani selected for mechanical?
Professor Ramani was selected.
I was also happy because
both of us being classmates we came to the institution.
The same grade.
And he went to the internal combustion engineering because
we both studied industrial combustion engineering
in the same college. PG.
So, I joined Department of Applied Mechanics.
he joined the Mechanical Engineering Department
in the industrial-
in Internal Combustion Engineering Laboratory. Yes.
It is very interesting sir because
I graduated from College of Engineering, Guindy.
And did my Master’s in PSG College of Technology. I see reverse-
Exactly reverse of- Ok.
what you have gone through. Right.
Right. It is very interesting. Right right.
Then, when when you joined applied mechanics- Yeah.
I was I became a faculty member and- Was the building-
was the building here in this campus. Nothing.
Oh. There wasn’t training at all.
And Professor Kraus called me.
Can we have a look at Professor Kraus.
Can you have the photograph of Kraus
and- Yeah sure. Probably you can identify him. Sure. sure.
Because not many people will be able to identify him, Yeah.
He looked more like De Gaulle of France. Right.
Professor. No. he is not here. No.
Yeah. That is Professor Kraus the tallest person.
Ok on the left.
Left most. On to my left, left most left most
and can you at the rightmost is professor?
I think this is Mr. Venkataraman.
I am not sure about that. Right sir.
He is minister; Minister of Industrialization industrial.
This is Professor Sengupto
and professor and Professor Kraus.
Sengupto was our former Director;
he was the first Director. First Director; first Director.
And he, L. S. was the-
was not called the Director but was called as Special Officer.
Special Officer.
He took care of all the works of the Director,
Registrar. Do you remembers where from Professor Sengupto came?
Sengupto was VJTI of Bombay Bombay IIT.
Nice sir you are able to recollect and all. Right right.
So, anything you want to say about you know-
Professor Kraus. Nothing.
I think probably they must be having some discussion there.
No. no.
He was the Chairman of the institution, Professor Lakshmanaswami Mudaliar
and it is his effort
which made us to come to this campus. Right.
Originally,
he was very much interested in
trying to make this campus go to Bangalore.
But it is not only his efforts
it is the effort of Mr. C. Subramaniam
who happened to be the Minister of Education at that time.
If I- And if I am, if I am correct. The the-
Kamaraj was the Chief Minister. Kamaraj was the Chief Minister
and C. Subramaniam was the Education Minister.
Kakkan no sir. It is the effort of Kakkan also was there.
But he was in a different portfolio.
So, these two people were very particular
to choose Madras should be the place.
At the time there wasn’t any Chennai.
It was only Madras. Madras.
Madras should be the place for starting the institution,
IIT Madras.
because they were arguing
in South, there wasn’t any institution.
Bangalore already
Indian Institute of Science is there.
Science is there. Why do you want to take it again there.
So, the pressure
with both Mr. Kamaraj and C. Subramaniam
was very heavy and
they immediately said
there wasn’t any problem for the land because
the Raj Bhavan. Yeah, the Governor’s palace
has quite a lot of land unused.
So, that could be the place where it could be started
and moreover
this should be developed as an education centre
because Guindy Engineering College was already there.
So, if this is also going to be here
it would be a very good gesture because
education centre would be at this particular place like they
argued, and nobody could deny that.
So, it started.
That is how it was on 30th;
31st July 1959,
it foundation stone was officially made.
But formally
it was on 17th August 1959
at CLRI complex
which I happened to attend
if I remember that will correctly the date.
Sir, when you joined- I was a student at that time.
in Guindy Engineering College.
I was fascinated the way in which
we- the there was going to be a
thought of starting at a higher institution.
So, I came to attend the
the foundation ceremony.
So, I was a student at that time.
I never imagined that I would be a faculty later,
2 years later.
So, after I completed
the internal combustion engineering course I
went to Warangal I told you.
Then, after Warangal simply because
of the general,
I mean generous attitude of Professor C. V. R. Murty,
I was a relieved.
Then I was appointed here.
then on my appointment.
First person whom I met was a Registrar
Professor R. Natarajan who handed over the appointment
officially even though it came in post.
Then immediately, he requested me
to meet Professor Kraus.
Professor Kraus.
He was the architect of the entire institution.
He only planned everything was planned
and in applied mechanics
he was very much concentrating on
Fluid Mechanics Laboratory because he had already
developed what sort of laboratory it should be and all that.
Whether any other person in applied mechanics
when you- when you joined sir?
You are the first person? I was the first member.
And then, all other?
Later on. Ok. Professor B. V. Rao and then, No.
after me joined Professor D. V. Reddy.
D. V. Reddy. Yes. He is- he is from which specialization?
D. V. Reddy was
he took his Ph.D. in Liverpool
and he directly joined here.
As I mean which lab? As assistant professor.
in which? At that time.
Ph.D.’s were very rare. Right sir.
but- So, he was a Ph.D. from abroad
and people felt that
he should be at least given an assistant professor’s post.
Yeah. So, he was an assistant professor.
I was a lecturer.
Right. So, we both were the
people who originally there-
there used to be. He belongs to fluid mechanics or- No.
He is a structural man.
Structural. Mechanics mechanics. Ok. He is a civil engineer.
Structural engineering background.
He did his Ph.D. in structural engineering. Very good.
Then, there used to be a joke everybody used to say
he had a car
and we both used to sit in the car, go for lunch and all that.
So, people used to make. The entire department is in the car.
So, Ok.
you two were there. There.
Very nice.
And Then, there was also a joke
which I don’t know whether it is connected here.
He took me to his house
and he secretly told me
saying my father is no more, my mother only is there.
So, I will pretend as if I am junior to you.
So, I would tell my mother.
So, keep quiet, don’t say anything.
Then, we went there.
Immediately he told his mother
that I was his boss.
Then, his mother began
making a very big show
saying my is a very nice person.
be careful.
don’t punish him all that.
Ok. Very innocent lady. So, the story was different.
Innocent lady.
So, that Professor D. V. Reddy was to enjoying.
So, after that he told clearly that I just made a fun.
So, It was like very enjoyable company
and then, later on one Mr. A. C. Gangadharan joined.
he was also a civil engineer.
He belonged to the same discipline as Professor D. V. Reddy.
Then, there wasn’t any mechanical engineering for quite some time.
Then, after Professor A. C. Gangadharan joined.
Professor Narasimha Muthy joined
and Professor Narasimha Murthy was interested in
fluid mechanic side.
Right. So, that's how he was recruited.
So, there was structural engineering side.
Fluid mechanics. Fluid mechanic side.
There wasn’t anything on the
mechanical engineering side accepting me.
Because the courses like theory of machines.
kinematics and dynamics of machinery vibrations.
Everything belonged at that time to applied mechanics.
So, there was a necessity for
certain mechanical engineering people to be there.
So, I happened to be the first fellow.
I was offering the courses like
theory machines, vibrations and all that.
During the time.
Professor Haug joined. H A U G.
He was recruited by Professor Kraus from Germany.
All the professors from Germany
were through Professor Kraus only.
On his recommendation only.
the Government of Germany would send.
So, he was sent here
to develop the laboratory
of Applied Mechanics Department.
He being a vibrations man,
so, he took some classes and all that
and we both were there originally that's all.
Then after some time
when the students move to the upper classes
more faculty were necessary.
Then B. V. A. Rao was recruited.
Along with me, Professor Chandrashekar Swamy also was recruited
which I forgot to tell you.
He joined much later.
I I joined
D. V. Reddy joined later.
A. C. Gangadharan third as a third person.
Narasimha Murthy was he joined as the fourth person.
Fifth person was Professor N. V. C. Swamy.
He- He was also director of our IIT for some. Later on;
later on. Later on. right sir. Right.
he he was doing his Ph.D.;
he was in the middle of the work.
So, the institution gave permission to him.
you were selected.
but join after you complete it.
Conditional offer. Conditional offer.
He was;
he was Professor Gundu Rao of IISC was the
guide for him.
He joined
and he was the first senior person in fluid mechanics because
assistant professor was the senior most position at that time.
Narasimha Murthy was a lecturer.
So, two people in the fluid mechanics
and two people already there in the
Structure- Structural side.
I was the only fellow in mechanical side.
So, later on
Professor B. V. A. Rao
who was working in Indian Institute of Technology Bombay.
He was recruited
in mechanical engineering.
So, in mechanical side were two,
in fluid mechanics side two
and structural engineering side two.
So, six people were there
and there were three department three laboratories.
We ourselves made that sort of division
for convenience even though
Can you name- there was no. Can you name; Big demarcation.
Can you name those laboratories?
Yeah the
fluid mechanic laboratory was already established
in concept in paper by Professor Kraus.
So, area was marked everything was there
and he had already been
making plans for
tunnel, wind tunnel and things like that for Germany.
So, that remained as it is.
Then, P. S. Srinivasan joined later I will tell you about that.
Then, the
Vibrations Laboratory or Machine Dynamics Laboratory
or Elasticity Laboratory, Structural Laboratory,
how to name was a confusion.
So, that was left for ourselves.
So, Professor D. V. Reddy
named the structural part
as Elasticity Section.
So, Elasticity Laboratory
Fluid Mechanics Laboratory.
Then, for the mechanical engineering side
we were not knowing how to do it.
So, originally, we named that as Vibration Laboratory.
Then, later on
the subjects like theory of machines, the dynamics of
machinery, kinematics all these also came.
Then the name vibrations may not be proper.
So, that that was changed to
Machine Dynamics Laboratory subsequently.
Yeah. So, that continued.
Right. Machine Dynamics Laboratory.
Elasticity Section they called instead of laboratory.
Elasticity Section, Machine Dynamics Section
and then, a Fluid Mechanics Section.
Then, after some time.
that section name
was taken off and then, put as laboratory. Laboratory.
And by that time
there was a gentleman called Professor P. S. Srinivasan
who was recruited as the first faculty
in mechanical engineering in our institution
before even we joined.
He was much senior to me in joining.
Even though we were classmates.
We belonged to the same batch
and we were in classmates
for some time in PSG College of Technology.
Later on he moved to
Government College of Technology at Coimbatore.
So, it was a pleasure again
to see Professor P. S. Srinivasan another classmate like
Professor Ramani.
He joined fluid mechanics,
why he joined later was
he was recruited along with one Mr. Padmanabhan.
These two were that together
to offer course for the engineering drawing.
At that time it was called a geometric drawing.
So, very specifically these were
trained to teach drawing.
So, they were sent to Germany
for making efforts,
for getting them trained in drawing
And while they were in Germany
Professor Kraus felt
that specializing in drawing alone is not going to be of any use
so, he diverted them
when they were staying there
that Professor Srinivasan should be
more trained towards fluid mechanics
because we are going to start the fluid mechanics laboratory here.
It was his architecture.
Very beautiful architecture
that is why I say that
Professor Kraus should be very much highlighted
in every place.
In fact, Professor Sengupto himself used to take the advice
of Professor Kraus for every; every now and then.
Then, Professor P. A. Srinivasan after his training in Germany.
Oh. there wasn’t any degree, it was only a training.
So, after the training
he was posted to department of applied mechanics
in the fluid mechanics side.
Then, Professor Padmanaban
basically electrical engineering person.
He was even though
both were offering drawing courses;
Professor Padmanabhan was posted to mechanical engineering
on the precision engineering side.
Actually, it was known as Fine Techniques Lab. Fine.
Later on it became
Fine Techniques Laboratory at that time
it was precision engineering to start with.
Sir. Later only it became- Right maybe.
I I forgot. At that time. it was fine techniques. Fine techniques fine techniques.
I I remember. You are right you are right. Fine techniques. Yes sir.
So, he he was the first fellow
in Fine Techniques Laboratory. Very good. Like
P. A. Srinivasan even though he was only second
but he was more a dominating person
because he trained in Germany
and for everything P. A. Srinivsan was
asked to reply
and fluid mechanic side, Professor Kraus directly used to call him.
And similarly,
Professor Padmanaban used to be directly called by Professor Kraus
and he he was a centre of a any decision.
That's how the applied mechanics got started.
we were more getting divided
So, I belonged to the mechanical engineering side
with Professor B. V. A. Rao,
myself. Sir. Later on some more faculty joined
and the department became became little bigger.
Just at that time only, Professor Wagner joined.
Hans Wagner,
when after B. V. A. Rao joined. Can you remember
the time he joined or may be
68 or so. I I am unable to recollect
any- doesn’t matter. Late 60’s I think.
Professor B. V. A. Rao was already a doctorate degree holder?
Yeah. he was East German. He after joining. East German doctorate.
So, when he joined he was a doctorate
already. Yeah, East German doctorate.
it was not recognized by the Government of Chennai.
But his designation was-
Yeah, yeah there was a fight actually.
Professor Lakshmanaswami Mudaliar fought
saying that this is German collaborated institution.
How how can we refuse,
you know same Lakshmanaswami Mudaliar
refused to accept it in in University of Madras.
I see. That is a controversy. Oh.
So, he was recruited
and he felt comfortable because
it is a recognized place for his degree he joined here. Ok.
So, subsequently,
some more faculty junior members and all that joined
and each each laboratory recruited
its own people qualified for them. Same
specializations. Right and much later only
the fourth section called biomechanics started
with Professor Radhakrishnan
and Professor Patel. S. Radhakrishnan.
S. Rakrishnan. Patel. Patel.
Patel happened to be my student-
Oh I see. in our own institution IIT Madras. Very good.
And then one gentleman who passed away,
Patel’s senior I forget his name.
it used to be in the letter G started.
Gisa. Yeah. Professor Gisa. He yeah right.
Ok. He- he.
Because about Professor Gisa I have heard about him. Right.
right. And- He joined.
he- Because in Senate he was asked to explain. Right.
Right. What is biomechanics?
Right. And he jumped into the bowl.
I don't know how far it is sure. Yeah true true.
He was the advisor for Professor Patel.
Right sir. So, when Patel was recruited he also was recruited.
Both of them joined the biomechanic section
Right. of the fourth section of- Now.
Department of Applied Mechanics. Now sir,
now people with the doctorate joining,
you would have also been tempted to acquire-
Yeah yeah, highest degree naturally. So
what was your effort in- Ok ok.
trying to get that. So, when I joined there Ph.D.-
Joined there. Did you register for,
Sure yes yes yes yes- Ph.D. here itself? Or elsewhere?
registered I will tell you that. Right sir.
And after having, after having that joined there- Yeah.
I was interested in trying to register for a Ph.D. Sir,
he is Professor Wagner. Professor Wagner right.
Wagner or. Wagner Wagner. Wagner.
Because a in German language is 'aa'
Not 'A'. Right. E is 'A'.
And German no Russia na American say Wag.
No even our our car
Waganer it should not be Weganor. Ok. ok.
It is Waganer but people you say Weganor. Right right.
Anyway. So, please say about your program. Ok
then I I had the ambition after having joined because
I was more interested in my growth.
That is how I remind
I mean resigned PWD and all that anyway.
So, when that was the case.
I asked Professor B. V. A. Rao.
whether it would be possible for him to guide me
and register me.
He said yes.
But there were some technical problems
and then, Professor D. V. Reddy advised me
it would be better that you registered with somebody else in
mechanical engineering,
you being basically mechanical engineering.
So, at that time
there wasn’t much of doctorate people available
excepting Professor V. C. Venkatesh
who was in manufacturing side.
Then I didn’t have any choice,
so, I registered with the Professor V. C. Venkatesh
to have the wear in gears.
We started building up
testing and all that
initially, some drawings were made and things like that.
not much of progress could go
because I belong to two departments there.
There was a conflict.
I I also happened to be taking the responsibility of an
assistant wardenship.
There was a very big
difficulty to coordinate
because the hostels were- Can you-
do you remember the hostel name sir,
where you were? It is Cauvery.
Cauvery. Cauvery was the first hostel. Ok.
Later on was the next one was- Krishna?
What was the next one next next to? Krishna-
Krishna. Just one.
Krishna hostel. Krishna hostel right no.
Memory goes off.
No don’t worry sir I can- Krishna. Yeah Yes.
Cauvery was fully developed.
Right. Krishna was half done.
Used to be yeah. Right. I am, I am losing memory.
Yeah. If you. No no I am here to help you out.
Right thank you. Yeah.
Thank you. No. I I am able to find out I should accept it
that my age
makes me forget. No. no many things. But you have,
you have wealth of information.
That is more than anything. That is ok.
So, joined.
the very first day itself I joined as an assistant warden
in Cauvery hostel. Oh
right from. Right very
Cauvery Hostel was existing.
and the hostel was elsewhere functioning.
The building Cauvery Hostel after it was built here,
I happened to be the first assistant warden. Ok right.
That is all. right.
but the hostels were existing even earlier
at Saidapet and all that. Right.
Right. The building was ready only here. Right.
Then, being an assistant warden.
being in the department of applied mechanics.
Doing Ph.D. Doing Ph.D. there.
In mechanical engineering. At that time was difficult because
a lot of administrative works were there.
In fact to be frank.
if I don't go to the hostel in time
some tins of oil will go off.
And I may had to periodically visit to
see that everything is alright because
it is student’s money
and Professor Swamy was
our friend we we both lived in the same hostel
by that time of course, he joined us a little bit better developed
than what it was earlier.
So, very frequently silently used to go.
I used to make the Director know that
Professor Sengupto know, knew
and he used to periodically visit.
He was also liking the way which in which we did.
It was also an interesting point in the hostel.
If you think that is necessary. I will tell you here. Please please sir.
In the hostel.
there were two
different section vegetarian non-vegetarian.
Everything was separate.
Excepting the dining hall was not partitioned.
So, I asked Professor
Sengupto- I think we had two kitchens also,
non-vegetarian. Two kitchens. Yeah. Two; two
places where you can display things,
take things everything is separate.
Even cooks were the separate.
Everything separate vessels were separate
excepting for the partition in the dining hall.
So, being an assistant warden
I was just interested in trying to know
why it was not done.
Professor Sengupto periodically used to visit
very much interested in developing the hostel.
So, he came there and I asked him
why is that there wasn’t any partition?
He smiled.
Then for some time, he didn’t reply.
In in those days.
we had the liberty to ask very freely Professor Sengupto.
he won’t mistake.
He was the Director also. He was the one the Director.
he didn’t have any I mean we didn’t have any fear
that he is the Director how can we talk to him and things like that,
very frank.
Then, I asked him if you are silent
how do I know what the answer is.
So, for which again he smile.
Smile is not the answer. That is what was.
Then, he he said
I will ask a, I will ask a question to you he has said.
Our students are going to be very bright
and they are going to study in abroad
and a lot of development is expected from them
by their own studies to our country.
When they go in a flight,
they are seated
by the side there was a non-vegetarian, our boy is a vegetarian.
Will he jump off the flight
just because he could not tolerate a non-vegetarian is by the side.
If so, is it not our duty
to train our own students to tolerate anything?
Whether he is a vegetarian non-vegetarian
to see that a vegetarian should tolerate
a non-vegetarian sitting by their side and eating.
Very nice idea. Right.
That was the lesson I understood.
Then, never asked the question.
Have I answered? He asked me.
Very much I said.
Then, no hostel here we had any partition.
Right sir.
As he imagined later on,
friends vegetarian non-vegetarian.
they used to mix with each other,
eat side by side.
There wasn’t any necessity for us to even think
of putting a partition.
So, that was a very interesting thing
which I learnt from Professor Sengupto.
Then, because of the difficulty of
time factor for me,
even though I I could register-
Sir. Were you married at that time or so? No I was not married.
Ok. If I would have been married there nobody-
would have given me the assistant warden’s position. Right.
I see. Right that was in the year 61 to-
I was there only for a very short period.
Later on I moved outside,
living with the cook
because my parents had threatened me
that anytime I might get married.
So, if that is the case,
then if I am the hostel at those days
very difficult to get a house if I get married
to make my family live.
So, I I
out of necessity, I moved out
not because I did not like the hostel life.
Which place you stay? Adyar.
Adyar. I took an independent small house
fortunately, there was a cook
who happened to know me right from my childhood
and he came there to help me.
So, he was a cook. I was enjoying his cook
I mean enjoying the stay.
I was living there for some time.
But he is a cook, he didn’t know anything about
counting money and numbers and nothing.
If you give him some 2 rupees to buy something
he doesn’t know
what is the balance and how much
he paid and all that
I mean 2 rupees a very big money at the time.
So, for some time he was working there and
he was a very good cook.
He couldn’t remain there idle.
So, silently one day he left and when I went there,
he wasn’t there.
So, I felt what to do?
My marriage also was getting postponed.
Joined back the hostel.
Joined back the hostel again in Cauvery.
I was wanted actually
to join the hostel.
Professor Venkata Rao
first professor
chemical chemical engineering professor yeah, chemical engineering.
Venkateswaralu. Venkateswaralu. Venkateswaralu was my warden. Chemical engineering.
Professor Venkata Rao became the warden second time.
I was there for some some time.
Then again there was a temptation,
then I might get married.
Then, on the fear that I may not even get a house,
I went back.
Now is there remaining, then
I took a a decision not to come to the hostel at all
because this dilly dallying is not at all possible.
Then, the marriage somehow got delayed
and then Professor Sankaran became the warden
of Tapti hostel.
P. Sankaran of electrical engineer? No.
K. S. Sankaran of civil engineering. K. S civil engineering.
Right he became the warden. But there were
two Sankaran’s. Right K. S. Sankaran.
Some how he was very fond of me.
He said I want you to be the assistant warden otherwise,
I would not be a warden.
What do you say he said.
It was a very embarrassing situation for me.
I said fine.
Then, fortunately for me to relieve,
get myself relieved from the assistant wardenship,
got married.
The lady joined me.
The very day of marriage
we moved in here
and it was fortunate. You had a on on
campus you got an accommodation? Yes, I was
fortunate to get the campus allotment
Yeah, D-flat; D-type flat was a allotted.
Earlier to that in the campus.
Now the campus in is very much in a
sort of a rush to move.
First movement of the campus was funny.
Professor Physics professor
I don’t know I forget every time their name. F. B. I. Sastry.
F. B. I. Sastry.
Professor Sastry right.
he was the person first moving.
Professor Sengupto put an order
because nobody was willing to move
and quarters were built what to do?
So, those who don’t move into the quarters.
I am going to cut the house rent allowance
and there will be a lot of punishment
and they would not get the priority when the allotment comes
once you refuse.
So, that order threatened everybody.
Then, Professor Sastry willingly joined and he was very happy
and Professor Sengupto congratulated him.
There after of course, the
campus became very popular
and it was very nice.
A word about Professor Sengupto.
Professor Sengupto was living in Adyar
and used to come by an Ambassador car, red in colour.
When he enter into the gate normally
the campus was not occupied by anybody
excepting snakes.
So, there are lot of people waiting to move into the campus.
At that time the vehicle comfortable and all that was not there.
So, he never behaved like a Director
he dumped as many people as possible in his car
even though, Ambassador car can
accommodate maximum 4.
6, 7 are all very common
and used to drive through.
That was the generosity with which
the first Director was here in this campus.
Another interesting thing about Professor Sengupto which I
would like to share here if I am permitted,
he took care aerially to view the campus,
To find out how to make the roads
that was also the advice of Professor Kraus.
Then, he found
the path in such a way
the minimum number of plantations should be cut
that is how our roads are curvy
and he was also happy
the roads are curvy
because it is a natural
way of what you call the- [Speaking Tamil]
Yeah. you know finding a path. Yeah,
naturally
there wasn’t necessary for us to build in an artificial thing.
Right. It was natural.
In fact Professor V. C. Kulandaiswamy
who happened to be the
Vice-Chancellor later
he was a Director of Technical Education.
Any Director of Technical Education ex officio is a member;
member in the board.
He asked a question in the board
saying that we did a mistake of roads should be curvy,
we should have been straight it would have been beautiful
for which Professor Sengupto answered beautifully
this is the reason
and then he couldn’t say any word.
And Professor Kraus also appreciated that.
That is how the campus became
with the very good
plantations remaining as they are right now.
And that credit goes to Professor Sengupto.
Sir, you you know we were
dwelling upon your Ph.D. programme- Right.
then you know- I I deviated I am sorry. Yeah.
doesn’t matter but- Taken you too much time. No. no. no.
What happened to you? Then, then after sometime.
Professor Venkatesan and I were
guide and students like.
Things didn't go very well.
Then there was an offer to go to Germany.
I was the only person
recommended by the Department of Applied Mechanics
by Professor Reddy was very happy
that I I was proposed
and there wasn’t any competition.
Like that
many people also were proposed in their respective departments.
When everything went on,
we were instructed
to see that you vacate the quarters
and dump whatever that is
available in your own home and after you
you return back, you bring all that.
The quarters would be re-allotted to you.
So, I did everything.
But there was a big shock,
four of us,
four did not get any information later
while others got.
It was a surprise.
Sunderesan of metallurgy,
Oh. myself, Bhimshankar Sastry of Physics
and A. K. Narayanan of electrical.
These four were not there
that is because of some political reason.
Let me not explain that here- No. Yeah.
because it was not good also.
So, later on I was upset.
I had the liberty of saying Professor Sengupto
to see Professor Sengupto.
I directly went into Professor Sengupto’s house,
asked him what is the matter?
He somehow
didn’t answer properly, then he said
well, Germany is not the only country.
You have other countries why do you bother about it.
So, later on, it was very embarrassing for me to ask.
So, little disappointed
just at that time only out of challenge
I began applying abroad.
I didn’t want to remain here
because I felt as if I was insulted.
Yeah. Then, I I Professor Sengupto knew.
I used to talk to him very frankly. But,
you know if I am correct you went to the
most famous prestigious. Yeah right right. Institution in USA.
Right. MIT.
Right. In fact one way guide was a very excellent man. Yeah.
And he was a very well-known man
and because of that work
I was given an honor,
a very good award was presented to me
in New York October 74
and the work was
very much respected in Japan
in UK and also, USA for railroad constructions.
they were interested using this work to calculate the wear
and then, trying to design
that the work was concentrating on that.
Professor Enrich Hertz
was making certain spring constant on contacts.
Contact mechanics.
My work was more on contact mechanics vibrations.
I had the possibility of finding out that damping coefficient
instead of spring.
So, that contribution they felt as if
is very good.
So, that that later on made me- You
return back in 73 if I. 73.
Right. 70 to 73 I was a student,
returned back in 73.
Did you go back to- I joined back the Department of
Applied Mechanics. Applied mechanics. Right.
73 then
when I I was given the elevation
as an assistant professor simply because I had the
Ph.D. degree.
It took some time anyway
immediately not joining
but after some time
I I was asked whether
I would be comfortable here.
I said I am comfortable anywhere doesn’t matter
because vibration laboratory is also then.
Then, there was a necessity
for a
a person to be recruited for the Engineering Design Centre.
Professor Ramchandran by that time had started
Engineering Design Centre.
Professor Channabasavan was the first man
recruited the Engineering Design Centre as a man in charge.
Then, I was interviewed.
I was selected.
Then won’t you be interested in going to
Engineering Design Centre?
I accepted that
then within about few months
there was an offer from US
for a post doctoral work.
The same place
where professor was very much in interested
so, it was a very embarrassing situation to ask leave.
Professor Narayana Murthy was the Director.
He felt it is not advisable for you to go
So, be here.
74. That was 70; 70. 74. 77;
77. 77 much later. 77. Yeah. Right.
No I was there after 73 for 4 years. Sir
how did you move into ME and MH in-
after the Engineering Design Centre
the Professor Naryana Murthy himself said.
It is better that you go to ME much.
Because he was
incharge of mechanical engineering professor.
So, I went there.
Again there was my own classmate sitting there.
Professor Raidu.
Like Ramani Raidu and many other people classmates were.
So,I joined my MEMH.
After some time only this offer came
and the Engineering Design Centre also was born
then it was difficult for me
to convince Professor Narayana Murthy to
to- Yeah. Time up? No this a no this is the ME and MH. Already
ok. In fact now the name has been changed sir.
Yeah, If you see that,
it is a machine elements. Yeah and mechanical handling.
Yeah. Laboratory now, it is called Machine Design.
Right I I knew that. Right sir. I knew that
because mechanically machine this is the mechanical
what is that the the the other side mechanical handling,
there was there isn’t anybody.
Mechanical handling is closed. Nobody is there? No.
closed. All the three are. And
for your information
That machine dynamics group in applied mechanics,
joined our department. Yeah I know that.
So, they have the thrust now. Professor
Ramamurti was so, Very much insisting on that. If you had
continued in mechanics.
Yeah. That machine dynamics.
I would have moved out automatically. You would have moved out automatically. It is ok Yeah,
Can you recognize somehow these people?
Professor Ramachandran
and Professor Sampath Desai.
And. I think half. That gentleman is
I I know him I forget his name.
his name would start with the letter B.
I forget that That gentleman with the-
Yeah, I I forget his name.
the man with spectator is a German.
Right. A nice gentleman I forget-
Professor Narayana Murthy at the back of
Professor Ramachandran.
right right. Just behind him of course.
These are workers
and he is the person who was inaugurated.
Kerckhoff.
Ok. So, all these people I know.
I am able to recollect. Very very.
And there was a
this person also I know I forget that
the the a person between
Professor- yeah, that is Sampath right.
Yeah. Sampath.
So, and and he he I knew very well, but
he is a bit handicapped person.
Do you remember?
No. He used to walk a little-
Herbert. No no Herbert is.
Workshop; workshop. Yeah yeah. Ebert; Ebert sorry. Yeah. Ebert.
I I forget his name.
I forget that now.
anyway it doesn’t matter. So, very interesting sir,
you moved into
mechanical ME and MH in 77.
Yeah. From Engineering Design Centre.
I joined MEMH in 74.
Ok. As a
technical senior Right right. Technical assistant Right. right.
Only to teach drawing.
Ok. Ok. Ok. I was also doing Ph.D. at that time.
So, just for you know. Fine. Remembrance. Very good.
So, then sir what happen you know in MEMH
you know can you. Even Ramaiyan. Yeah.
yeah. Ramaiyan and others also joined at that time.
Right right. They were all faculty in Anna University.
Then, you were developing a set up
in ME and MH. Yeah.
ME and MH the first Ph.D. student was Professor Balaveera Reddy.
And he was a very dynamic person,
this was set up. Do you remember yes. This was set up
and very much respect I must give to this
because he worked night and day
leaving his family at the other coast
and he built in is already
a man with four daughters and a son
and they were all in this set
and he came there
very much concentrating on Ph.D. work.
He did this equipment.
Can you say anything special
about this equipment because- Sure the special
feature is there is a slot there
where when the
slot is not there because of the metal,
when a conductor go goes
just in between a magnet
there will be a generation of current.
So, there is an Eddy current.
The moment the slot comes
the Eddy current will disappear.
So, a current.
slot, a current, a slot.
that will give an electric break.
So, this break was utilized
on a gear shaft
to see the two gears when they mesh,
one gear will be running,
the other gear will be preventing Yeah,
Just because of intermit breaking.
So, when there is a hit,
since I did already on contact mechanics,
I was interested in making this
contact mechanics applied on gears.
That was the work.
the for that only this was built.
Later on, by changing parameters.
many other works could also be done.
This Sir- if I am correct
it is also a non-conduct sensing arrangement. Yeah right.
Whereas, you know there is no conduct sensor here. Yeah right.
So, you can
remotely, Right right yeah. Collect the signal.
That is right. That is another advantage of this.
Damping. Subsequently
many people worked on this if I am correct.
Yeah yeah. Not only Balaveera Reddy.
if I am correct Venkataraman. 7; 7 people did. 7 people. Did work on that
Yeah, So, one set up.
7 people I think. People did that work
yeah and this was also wanted in some of the
this self-financing engineering colleges.
Right. To build up to take it because IIT did not
after some time wanted.
but later on
there were a hesitating move and all that.
But there wasn’t anybody
to use it properly
that is how it got diminished.
I don't know what happened for subsequently.
I didn't go to the laboratory further.
But that that the set up is continuing there or I don't know.
Now, lot of revamping has been done. Yeah Ok
So, new equipments have come in. No. it is too old.
Probably, some more
better concepts should have come now and
too old Yeah, So,
I am sorry; I have taken a lot of time. No. no. no. no.
it was very interesting to- Ok. talk to you.
So, you retired. Then, after you just asked me the career.
Then, I moved Engineering Design Centre.
then I was given an offer
you be in the Mechanical Engineering Department as a faculty.
at the time,
at the same time, do be in the Engineering Design Centre.
So, faculty in mechanical engineering
and chief design engineer in
Engineering Design Centre.
This sort of thing again
disturbed me very much.
Then, after some time Professor
L. S. Srinath felt
the Engineering Design Centre was
the concept was made by Professor Ramachandran.
Professor L. S. Srinath felt-
Sir. before that,
do you remember one work done by us jointly
in the feed mixing unit yes yeah.
in Nandanam. I I remember. I remember that; I remember that.
Yeah it is a point we should be.
So, very very much highlighted.
I am happy that you you mentioned. Because you are-
you are doing many projects.
Right. In one project.
you know we joined together. Yeah right.
And that is a Nandanam
feed mixing unit. I understand.
I understand. Where we had to. Sure sure. Do.
Sure. we we had that work
and Engineering Design Centre
did go to very many places for consultancy
on the design particularly.
One example I will try to give
the people
for taking the feather off from the chicken
they were finding it difficult.
They were asking me whether it would be possible for a machine,
machine to be designed.
So, it will be very quick and all that.
We tried, but
by the time Engineering Design Centre itself did not exist.
Yeah. So, it it couldn’t continue.
There were lots of projects we were interested
but the only thing is
manpower was not there
and there wasn’t automation;
there wasn’t any automation.
By that time there wasn’t any software development
which we could be using it for design.
Such developments were not there.
So, but that itself is a different field.
Development of a software design is a different field.
So, these were all put forth to
Professor Srinath and he felt
that it is wise that we dissolve that
and he made me to perfectly permanently join
in MEMH laboratory.
That is how I- One more person
you have forgotten Engineering Design Centre,
Professor. Professor Kalander Saheb.
Kalander Saheb also, yeah, Kalandar Saheb also Yeah,
He also joined in the manufacturing side.
I went to the MEMH. After that
you know Channabasavan. And Professor Channabasavan
went to precision engineering.
After the centre was closed.
Yeah. People were distributed. We were distributed right.
Kalandar Saheb came to our lab. Then, there was Sharma.
Sharma also was there in the
engineer design centre he also went to the precision engineering.
D. K. Sharma.
And Kotial.
Kotial also was there.
Right. Shirohi also was there.
all we were all there in the Engineering Design Centre.
they were transferred to precision engineering
while I was transferred to MEMH.
Kalandar Saheb went to manufacturing.
Channabasavan also went to precision engineering. Right sir.
Malhotra
my? Malhotra was in the FRP. FRP Centre.
He was already there in the FRP. Right sir.
He didn’t come to the Engineering Design Centre. Right.
right sir. So, how was your you know
your work in ME and MH because
I left MEMH you know in 77.
Ok. I went to IIT Bombay.
Yeah. I know. When I came back.
I came back to manufacturing engineering. Engineering section.
Yeah. And not did not come.
Right. To MEMH. You went to Bombay I went to USA.
That is how it is. It is right.
So, anything that you can recollect
in your- No. MEMH was a very
lovable place to work with because
all our colleagues were excellent,
it was a beautiful place and
big workshop and all that.
Professor M. A. Parameshwaran. M. A. Parame that is
MEMH Machine Elements Mechanical Handling.
That is how it was named as MEMH
and machine elements.
We were rotating ourselves who is the head and all that.
For a longer time
there was a professor called Raidu
who happened to be my classmate.
He was there as a head for a long time
and then, Professor Parameshwaran permanently
head for mechanically handling.
There were only three people
Professor Parameshwaram, Professor Ram. Ramakoteswara Rao.
Ramakoteswara Rao
and Then, Madhusudan Rao Madhusudan Rao
who unfortunately passed away.
Excepting Parameshwaram the other two don’t exist now.
So, when these things were going on
there was a lot of exchange between
mechanical handling and machine elements.
There wasn't any big demarcation.
Even though separate laboratories exist.
They were in the in the same building.
So, we never had any difficulty
in exchanging mechanics or
manpower and all that even materials.
So, went on for a long time.
I think before that was dissolved
I left the institution.
So, later on I do not know
what happened. Did not get dissolved sir.
Actually after Parameshwaran,
we couldn’t continue the program.
Ok. Madhusudan Rao also went to. Could not.
Malaysia
So, we were finding it difficult to offer that.
Understand Programme.
we had PG programme.
Yeah yeah. In machine elements alone.
Yeah yeah And a mechanical handling. Right and
later on Balasubramaniam joined I think. So, mechanical handling had
to be closed. Yeah yeah natural.
So, that is how it happened. Yeah.
yeah. Still its a very hot field sir.
you know if some. True.
Somewhere because no other institution in India has it.
no that was a. Does it.
except Kharagpur. Crane and all that were very well-developed.
Well-developed.
And I I think the credit again goes to Professor Kraus.
He was the architect for all the laboratories.
the departments were all laboratory oriented.
That concept was brought by
Kraus because in Germany it was the case.
Sir did you come for our Golden Jubilee Celebration
were you- I don’t think I came.
Ok 2000. I don’t-
9 if I am correct.
No I don’t think so, I didnt come.
Invitation was sent. 2009 I
I already had move to Perundurai.
Perundurai. So, I couldn’t make the trip.
Ok. Because was an employee there
I didn’t take leave and come.
Because I know that is the time, I was also a HOD.
I see. So, then,
many of the professors retired professor came
including German professors. No I could have come
had I been free so,
but I was employed
somewhere. Probably some other time we can you know
talk about. I will I show you the- Sure sure.
photographs also. With pleasure with pleasure.
Then, anything you can recollect which is
something at the top of your mind
about you are stay in IIT. Ok
as far as the department is concerned,
irrespective which department do you belong,
excellent friendship
and people were very much
helping each other even though
some minor personal animosities
might be there out of competition or something like that.
Professional competition is there everywhere.
So, excepting that
I atleast feel
that there was a beautiful coordination.
To make that coordination better
we used to have the Saturday movies where
people again
used to mix with families and things like that.
it was a wonderful life
and for making that sort of movies
very good Open Air Theatre was there.
There is also a credit
regarding the Open Air Theatre
probably, many people may not know.
If time permits I might say that also, Please Yeah,
There was a very big pit there.
The present place where there is Open Air Theatre
a very big pit.
Superintending Engineer Ramaswamy was
the engineer there at that time.
Professor Sengupto was
trying to do things for the institution.
They both inspected the site very big pit.
Sengupto was asking Ramaswamy what to do.
Then, he said with the
idea of building some building there,
he said no problem sir,
without any difficulty, we could dump earth and then,
make it better.
Then, he again smiled, it is usual style of smiling.
When he smiles,
there is something which others have to watch
that that this is the meaning.
He is smiling. He is basically a civil engineer.
He is a mechanical engineer.
excellent handwriting. Professor Sengupto.
Beautiful. Professor Sengupto? Yeah.
Excellent teacher.
Somebody said civil engineer.
No. no. no. He is he took classes for applied mechanics. Oh.
I attended also. I see I see.
He was fond of taking classes
but there wasn’t any time as a Director
and there were some funds I mean lot of
in fact for the whole day I can tell,
but there is not much of time.
Beautiful things one can enjoy
but that there is no time. Anyway that pit he smiled
then Mr. Ramaswamy I didn’t ask you
whether we are going to make the building
or any other thing.
I was just trying to think what can we do that.
Then, Ramaswamy was keeping quiet.
Then he said why don’t we make this as an Open Air Theatre.
That is how the Open Air Theatre came.
Without much of expenditure
the the existing pit itself
was made in such a way,
it is a beautiful gallery, we enjoy today.
then Open Air Theatre
and in Open Air Theatre
there was a difficulty by the time of course, Sengupto left
when our-
Professor Ramachandran. Ramachandran came.
Whenever we used to have function
we had to wait for the sun
to go down because
suns rays were harming we were not in a position to
listen to it.
So, this sort of
situation in a big institution is not good
they thought that only made a
a very big auditorium to to be developed now
which is now called a Student Activity;
Activity Centre.
Now, the original concept again was
to make the stage common
and this is the Open Air Theatre
the other end will be closed theater.
So, the stage can be rotated
without any difficulty of additional expenditure.
But subsequent directors changed that.
So, so the student activity centre became an independent one.
Independent one. This became an independent one.
That is how it was.
I said thank you very much sir. Oh it’s a pleasure sir.
On behalf of center. Sorry if I have unnecessary taken. No. no.
Unnecessary information. Yeah.
So, maybe I didn’t know where to cut where to enter.
So, professor- I want to ask one question. Sure.
One Professor Haug was there in applied mechanics.
Yes. what is the year?
In 60’s. Yes.
Professor Haug I told you.
he was there.
Which; which.
He took a vibrations. vibration class.
Vibration class. Ok.
Because his daughter used to work as a- Yeah yeah.
Assistant. His daughter in Chemistry Department. In Chemistry Department.
Yeah I know that. And Then, how.
Yeah Right. Yeah he
her name used to start with the E I forget the full name anyway.
Ok. ok. Yeah.
and he remained there only a for few years.
He very old, he couldn’t.
in his place only Wagner came.
Originally-
Right. Originally. he was the person recruited for a vibrations.
Professor Wagner replaced him.
Ok So,
Thank you sir.
- Contribute
to the Centre -
Monetary
Support - Digital
Material
Prof. T. T. Narendran in conversation with Prof. V.R. Muraleedharan
Well my name is Muraleedharan,
I teach at IIT Madras in the Department
of Humanities and Social Sciences.
I have been teaching since 1988 here,
but my entry into this campus was on...
if I recollect 12th August 1983,
when I joined here as a Ph. D. student in
the same Department of Humanities and Social Sciences.
So, right from then I have been living inside
the campus except for a period of 4 months.
So today I am here to listen to Professor T. T. Narendran,
who has lived here even much longer period
from 1971 as a Research Scholar and later on as a faculty.
And, he was with the Department of Humanities
and Social Sciences initially as part of the
Industrial Management and Industrial Engineering division.
Later on he became a professor
and he was with the Department of Management.
So, this particular conversation or...conversation with
him, is part of a larger project of the Heritage Centre
called the Oral History of the Institute
as seen through the lives of many people
who have lived here as a student,
as a faculty in the campus or otherwise.
So, today we are going to listen to Professor T. T. Narendran.
I am delighted to be part of this
Heritage Project on the Oral History of IIT.
We would like to listen to you...your journey in IIT,
your story shall we say of your life over
the last 40 years. Could you tell us something about
what led you to enter into IIT life and how it progressed?
Perhaps begin with a brief background about myself.
I reluctantly went for Engineering at
the College of Engineering Guindy which was
then affiliated to Madras University.
And, those were days when we had 5 years of Engineering,
where the branch was decided after the first 2 years.
Ok.
Based on our academic performance.
I got into Mechanical Engineering as I wanted,
but most of the time my heart was really not in it.
Surprisingly, my final year I
chose an elective Industrial Engineering.
And that appealed to me a lot more.
So I got interested in Industrial Engineering
and started looking for opportunities to
study further, and that is when
I found the Industrial Engineering Programme,
I was a little late I think.
So I didn’t even apply for M. Tech.,
I got into M .S. As it turned out I was the first ever
M. S. student in the Department of Humanities.
Nice, in Industrial Engineering.
And the subject was Industrial Engineering.
The industry management came later?
No both of them existed. Ok.
They were parallel...because the history is that
somewhere in the mid-'60s there was a diploma IIT
in Industrial Engineering, later it
became two full fledged programmes,
M. Tech. in Industrial Management
and M. Tech. in Industrial Engineering.
That continued for about 10 years or more.
And...this somewhere after 1979
or so that it became one programme.
One programme.
Yeah. So...what...
Which year was it when you joined? '71.
'71. To be precise August 1971, I think 18th August
if I remember the date, was when I checked in to IIT.
The...I was asked to go to Cauvery Hostel
where the the central office of the chairman council
of wardens office or whatever.
And, they gave me Cauvery hostel itself,
room number 52 ground floor, that also I remember,
and it was only a few months after which I got
a second floor room and I stayed there for
the rest of my tenure as a student in IIT,
through M. S. and part of my Ph. D.
And, one of the accessories that came
with me to my room was the veena. Ok.
And, there used to be this inter-hostel cultural
event of course, it was a very different format
where each hostel would be given a 45 minute slot,
the event would be spread over 3 days,
the same set of judges would come and sit.
Every hostel would put together
a package of whatever talent it has.
It is a annual feature.
Yes. Hostel day or something.
So, whoever is the student secretary, came in search
of me seeing that I play the veena. You have a...
And it began...it was also interesting that in those days, '70s,
before the advent of TV and all that
these events would attract a full OAT crowd. Oh.
And, it possibly helped me, let’s say develop contacts
with the student population, be recognized et cetera.
So, that was, on that side, academically of course,
I must say that those were the early days
when including my guide in the department,
people were not very sure as to
what an M. S. student is supposed to do.
So, there was a little bit of let’s say.
Experimenting with you. In the way.
The other interesting part was...
there was no central computing facility
and...what existed then is
bullock cart age is what you can say.
But, I think they had this 360 even then.
Nothing. Oh. Nothing was there. In '71...
So, all that we had was some kind of understanding
with the College of Engineering Guindy campus,
where there was an IBM 1620 machine
32 K memory ok...and that was the only.
That’s also because of the way in
which the computer industry itself. Through through my guide’s contacts
and all of that I was be able to use that, believe it
or not you can run the programme
and get an output once in a week,
I would have to cycle to all the way there.
But, if you had to use the computer then.
Yeah.
Ok.
Then...the turning point was by about 1973 October
I think, the IIT computer got installed IBM 370 bar 155
I think...512 K memory, which was
a grade higher than what existed
in IISc Bangalore, that had 256 K memory.
So after that things improved, my research.
speeded up a little more. Yeah.
I mean you didn't have to move across the campus. Yes.
And that facility existed through my Ph. D. days
also that’s what I worked with.
The PC in all the the next generation fast computing
came much much later,
so I had to also content with that.
So today I am not surprised that my M. S. took 3 years.
At that time because...
Well, even now it takes roughly about 3 years.
So you are ahead of time.
To be fair, the amount of work that
you can do is much more in the same 3 years.
Right.
At that time I...we could not have been
so productive given the conditions then. Fine that was...so...
What about your... The interesting part is,
between my undergrad and
my M. S. for a couple of months I had gone
to Wheels India Factory as an intern.
I wasn’t too comfortable with the factory environment,
but I put that behind me I started doing my M. S.
Towards the...as I neared completion of my M. S.,
I had fallen in love with this place
I guess, I didn’t want to leave.
So, I told my guide that I want to do a Ph. D.
and I also want to be a faculty member here.
In those days inbreeding was not an issue
because there are hardly any institutions within
the country which could award a Ph. D. degree. Right.
And...so that was made known to the other professors also.
I...I still remember Professor R. K. Gupta advising me
"Why don’t you take a break, work in the industry
and come, that exposure is important."
Who was your master’s supervisor?
Ramani, Professor Ramani was my supervisor
both for M. S. and for Ph. D.
So, the Ph. D. interview was mere formality and...
That time how many were recruited
for Ph. D. along with you? Along with me there was
Just 2 3. Ramji Sampath.
Who also joined with me. Even during my M. S.,
there was one more lady who joined, Mira Sivaram.
So...yeah...so my...let’s say decision to join Ph. D.
was more because I wanted to stay
here permanently and by then I made up
my mind that I want to be in the academic line.
And then, what happened was...in those
days Master’s degree was the minimum qualification
for becoming a faculty, and the post was lecturer.
So, 2 years into my Ph. D. my guide said
"There is an advertisement, why don’t you apply?"
Ok.
He also said, "Who knows...when you finish
your Ph. D. whether there will be a vacancy or not."
Right.
So I applied, I got in.
So I started teaching from let’s say November '76
or...in fact in between for 2 months I was even
a Research Associate with the project of my guide.
The result was, once I got into teaching,
preparation took a long time.
Right.
And, my Ph. D. also look...took a long time,
and there were quite a few in my age group
in various departments, all of us have
this record of notoriously delayed
Have a...
Ph. Ds. We have all taken 10 years in that range. 10 years.
Yeah, '74 to '84, because we weren’t
doing research all the time.
Luckily there is no deadline for like
we have now, 7 years or 8 years.
Today things are far more streamlined.
So...see we have also... And I think you require that flexibility. Yeah.
We have grown with time,
we have learnt, we have evolved
we have become far more professional.
But...this was the situation prevailing at that time.
But fine, the...the other interesting thing was
it was almost like yesterday I was a student
and today I was a teacher suddenly
Just a curiosity about your thesis evaluation,
Was it the same as we had now synopsis and its...
Yes yes. Sent out to three.
The same formalities. Examiners to. The
During my M. S. seminar talk was not a formality,
but I...I had given a seminar talk, not here.
At the OR conference at IIT Kharagpur.
So, I did make one visit there.
Any...any thoughts on the reports
you have received on your dissertation,
what was it...can you...
Don’t remember.
Ok, it was on OR.
But, yeah today going back, we would all
be embarrassed to show our thesis.
Ok. Because the knowledge level is... That's always the case
With anyone.
Gone up so much that, how did somebody might ask today,
"How did you award a degree for this?"
Absolutely. That’s how it...that is how knowledge evolves,
Yes, yes. that's how knowledge grows.
Yes, yes. Fine yeah, so.
Early experience in teaching. The early years of teaching.
Yes. Yeah,
No...as soon as I became a lecturer I went out
of campus, and then within my very first semester,
the students in my class...to use their language,
They started putting line, "Sir there is an Assistant Warden
vacancy in our hostel, why don’t you come?"
Ok.
So, some of the students who are keen on that,
they spoke to the authorities concerned,
and made sure that I became their Assistant Warden,
Tapti Hostel was where I went in.
So for 2 years...
You were there.
I was Assistant Warden in Tapti Hostel, and it was fun,
lot of interactions with students. You would eat there?
You would eat in Tapti?
Yes yes. Ok.
I have eaten in Cauvery Hostel also.
In fact, food was much...this was another...
Given your food preferences...
All those were never a problem...
Then.
And, this is also must be said, the first mess bill
I paid in Cauvery Hostel was 110 rupees.
Today possibly the daily rate would
be of that order or more
Yes, but I think its 90 rupees or something.
So, cost service...and a Master's student
got a stipend of 250 rupees, a Doctoral student
would get a stipend of 400 rupees. 400 rupees.
So, and for a 110 rupees mess bill, 250 stipend was...
Absolutely. More than fine, times have changed.
And, then also there was water scarcity...I mean off
and on, I remember one year when monsoon
failed totally, you had all those... What about the department then, composition
of department, how big was it?
This mix of Industrial Management
along with the Humanities.
When I... Sort of the culture.
Joined it is possibly, about two-thirds in the Humanities
and Social Sciences and one-third of the...
Out of 15...15...
Maybe about 20-24 somewhere in that range. 20 faculty.
Around 20.
And, the north wing was mostly Humanities,
the south wing part was where primarily
Industrial Engineering faculty were located.
There were few who were in the Industrial Management
side who also sat with the...sat with the
Humanities people. For the Industrial Engineering part,
did you have any lab or workshop?
There was a lab, there was an Industrial Engineering lab. That was also on the southern side.
Yeah, that was the last room. Ok.
It is probably now gone to Physics.
Physics ok. Yes.
So, those were there.
So, how many M. Tech. intakes used be there?
It used to be 20 and 20 Industrial Engineering
and Industrial Management. Ok.
And when they merge with, they said 40
and over the next 20 years it went on,
but gradually we realized that
we weren’t getting the best talent, and...
Which year it got wound up...the M. Tech.?
When we decided to start the MBA,
that was as late as 2001.
Oh, it was running till then.
Yeah. Oh.
In fact, the first batch of MBA, when they were
being interviewed, some of the outgoing M. Tech. students
Fine. Were around to help us conduct the interviews.
Ok ok. That also happened.
So about your teaching in particular,
you have I have personally struggled a lot,
how about your experience,
was it that natural to you...or you had to...
It is... Work...
It is actually a mix.
It varied with each subject.
They asked me to teach a subject
called 'Principles of Management.'
Not a subject that I was comfortable with,
but I would prepare with the books,
take notes and then go to the class,
but I seem to manage quite...
Managed I managed well.
The management. That...that went well.
I wanted to teach Operations Research,
but the senior faculty were...already taken that. Already in that.
So it didn’t come to me the first year.
Was it the course for the M. Tech. or the B. Tech.?
For the B. Techs. For the B. Techs.
Then...also I remember, there was nothing
like a plan in those days.
So unlike now, there was no announcement that
these are the courses, these are the slots,
there was no slot system,
timetable would be after reopening.
Right. Teachers would be assigned after reopening.
So, you can be taken by surprise.
So, I was suddenly asked to take
a subject called Computer Simulation.
And, at short notice I was absolutely unprepared,
and my first class was a disaster.
And this student sitting... You had a you had a formal
introduction to that course in your...
I had...
You know. I have done the subject.
But not as a teaching...yeah.
Yeah, and the students sitting in front
of me were my friends earlier.
Ok.
ok, I have been with them in the
same hostel, they were my juniors.
So they also felt very sorry for me.
But, by the end of the semester they said.
Managed.
You have.
Ok.
In fact, only the first class I had difficulty,
after that I think I came through.
But this is not all. Couple of years down
the...in those days we had only one Economics teacher,
but Economics was compulsory for
all the undergrads in the second year.
So we used to get a guest faculty member,
and suddenly one of the Directors said,
"No guest faculty member,
ask your internal people to teach."
And this course was forced on me.
Was was it the same 420?
HS 420, the number was different.
Number was different.
Ok.
Was there a number at that time, I am not
even sure I don’t remember now,
but all that I remember is this.
I picked up this book 'Microeconomics'
by Henderson and Quandt.
Oh that’s a tough one.
But, maths was the background I had, so I tried
to learn Economics through Mathematics.
That’s a good book.
So what happened was, I took notes,
I took the class, my students did not discover
my ignorance of Economics.
And it went like that for a couple of years by
which time I think we got more faculty
and I mercifully got out of it.
Meanwhile I got into Operations Research,
Industrial Engineering or Production Management
was the name of the subject, but fine I was
comfortably settled in the subject area,
that I knew and thereafter it was quite comfortable.
But, the early years, all these turmoils was there,
and you must remember that as a result of
which, I had no time to think of research and my Ph. D.
Yeah, with all these things... was completely in the backburner.
Definitely.
So, thankfully there is no pressure
from the supervisor also on that...on that front.
Now and then there was...it's not
that...the questions were asked,
but fine, thankfully I got out of all of that.
What was the evaluation pattern, teaching what a...was it...
Those were the days when So much in your...lot in your
hands. Every subject would have three periodical tests.
They used to be three cycles of periodicals,
the best two of them would be taken, absolute marking
and then there will be a final semester examination.
So periodical I mean in class, you give some problems
and they solve individually.
Yeah, I mean its not very different
from the quizzes that you have now. The same which is same ok,
just a ok a longer its longer period.
and it always was...Monday, Wednesday,
Friday like that. 8...8 to 8:50.
Those slots were reserved for conducting
the periodical tests. And when I was Assistant Warden,
this also used to happen.
I was teaching my wards in class, and if there
was a periodical test in my subject the next day,
I would hardly get to sleep.
Students would come in 1s and 2s
and keep asking doubts, some of them only ask doubts,
some of them also tried to see
if I...they could get any clues on what will come
in the question paper the next day.
So I had to be extra smart, not to let any of that happen.
At the end of the semester one of the students confessed,
"Sir, we found that by not asking you anything about
that test we will have a better idea as to what is coming,
if we ask you you completely mislead us."
But anyhow, being approachable
and being able to help the students was good experience.
When you joined, who were the faculty members,
you said about 20 people were there,
but some of the prominent ones both
in Humanities and Social Sciences. Yeah yeah.
And the related question later on, the Department
of Management was created I think around 2006. Yeah.
4...5 or 6. A brief history into what led to its formation,
could you throw some light on that?
Ok, when I joined, Professor R. K. Gupta
was the Head of the Department
and then if I remember right,
he was the only professor, then
Dr. Anantharaman, V. Anantharaman, was
the Associate Professor, he is no more,
there was one more Professor, N. K. Dutta
was the other Professor.
He was a Professor of Industrial Engineering.
Unfortunately within 6 months of
my joining, he passed away; Professor N. K. Dutta
died of heart attack on...in January,
I had joined in August.
In fact, he had started teaching a subject
for us in January that semester,
unfortunately died prematurely.
So.
Ramani.
Professor Gupta and Dutta were
the professors at that time. Professor V. Anathraman
was the associate professor, Ramani
was Assistant Professor, and then we had
I think Arumugam was there in Industrial Engineering.
Jayashankar.
No no, they...all of them came later.
And the Professor L. V. L. N. Sarma was there,
there used to be a gentleman called Asthana
Psychology Behavioral Sciences.
He also died young, at the age of 33, he died of
a heart attack. And then...V. S. Kumar
Yes. Was there, Professor Krishna Rao was there.
Ok.
Hamsa Leelavathi was the Economics faculty member
at that time, Elizabeth Kurian
was already there. Yeah, Durga Prasad Rao.
Durga Prasad Rao. Durga Prasad Rao...
And then C. Ramachandran.
C. Ramachandran was there of course, History.
So, that’s...
Yeah.
I think all of whom were there
by certainly mid '80s when I was...
Yeah.
Except Ramani...
Some light on formation of the Management Department.
Yeah, somewhere towards the late '90s,
the discussion had started. It was more
about whether we should start an MBA programme.
And in a very different thinking from today’s,
what I had heard was that the MHRD had said
there is a large demand for MBAs in the country,
but it is terribly expensive for us to start
so many IIMs, IITs have the infrastructure.
So why don’t IITs get you...get into MBA education.
And by then a few IITs had started. Kanpur
and Madras IIT were the late entrants into MBA programme.
So by about 2001, we had decided...they decided
that we would close down the M. Tech.
Industrial Management Programme
and launch the MBA programme.
I think August 2001 or so in fact, that year also we had a water scarcity
and late reopening, the inaugural of the programme
happened in the ICSR auditorium.
2004.
2001...1 was when the MBA programme is launched.
Right.
And then, then we made the case for formation of
a department which was unanimously I think
supported by the Senate, but then, a department
has to be created by an act of the parliament,
it required parliamentary clearance.
So all that happened around 2004,
I think Management Studies and Biotechnology happened
approximately around the same time,
these two departments were created.
So any special role played by any individual, could
be Director or others who enabled this formation to happen, would you...
The...the commence its a. Attribute any...
The starting of the MBA
programme had the full support of the
then Director Professor Natarajan. Natarajan.
And, the creation of the department
and all of that had the support of Professor Ananth and...
and initially, we still continued to exist
in the HSB only, same building.
After that by then the new library building was coming up,
the old library was being abandoned.
So there was also the proposal to convert
the old library building to a Department of Management Sciences Block
So one thought since we have talked about
the management department creation, now in building
the department, particularly from adding faculty,
how difficult was it to get good faculty
who would have otherwise gone to better institutions.
This should have really you know worried you,
or..or whoever at the helm of affairs.
See I think all through, the pull factor
was the brand name of IIT.
Then additional pull factor could...it was some of
the colleagues could have been the city of Chennai,
or Madras whichever, that need not
have motivated everybody to come here,
but IIT had some attraction.
Joining a Department of Humanities and Social Sciences,
there would have been a reluctance, starting of
an MBA programme would have
given a little more motivation, okay
I will have a meaningful role to play,
people were willing to join.
Once a department was created, I think...
These were...
Yeah. Less of a problem. Yeah.
The other problem was, there was a time
when let us say every department faculty
strength was strictly legislated upon.
And so whether it is taking research scholars
or taking faculty members, it was also about, will
everybody get an equal share of the cake?
Right.
So we also had to worry about balancing
the requirements of the Humanities sections,
the Social Sciences section, the Management section.
Right.
Some of which was not always
pleasant, and you know about this. Right right right
but now things are...that sharing problem,
is not so much a problem, because
as long as you feel someone can be taken. Yeah.
So, anyway.
The constraints have largely gone off. Gone off.
A lot of the financial constraints have moved out,
infrastructural constraints have gone off.
I think the overall health of
the institute is is much better today.
If anything, interaction amongst people might
have come down over the years and the reasons
are obvious, it's happen...it's a worldwide phenomenon.
So, you don’t have to particularly blame IIT for that.
Two things come to my mind,
one is which largely persists even today,
but the kind of interaction you may have had
with faculty in other departments.
Was there...opportunities for that, nowadays we go for JEE
No, JEE. At least it gives an opportunity to interact with others.
JEE existed even then, there was some other system
which caused this interaction.
Centralized invigilation, entire seating
and invigilation of the semester exams in particular. Right so you meet more often.
Centralized.
So, I would end up in a department,
in a branch and with another colleague
whom I have not met at all. And then
we get to talk and...that is how it was.
But what about sitting in doctoral committee
of other departments, or vice versa?
It was there. So it was there so there. The system was there.
So there is...that was there to give that opportunity. Yes yes.
Right from the beginning, it was...as far as
I know, it was 6 members in the doctoral committee,
which had Head of the Department, Guide,
2 from the... 2 from the department, and 2 from outside the department.
That composition I think remained the same.
Very good.
So, the other thing that we all know about
you, is your closeness with students.
It doesn’t happen with everybody,
you know even with good teachers, popular teachers, but...
I think. Your relationship with the student...
It probably had to do with the fact that,
when I was a PG student, I already had
a lot of undergraduate friends,
I was moving with them freely.
So when I went to class, suddenly I could not
change my role and start acting different.
So I was just my natural self.
So, the friend continued to remain the friend that’s
all, I couldn’t be any different.
So that way almost throughout my service,
I have not felt uncomfortable interacting with students.
Subsequently, that’s what I was Assistant Warden,
so I interacted with the students a lot.
Then somewhere in the mid '80s, I was head of
the guidance and counselling, and '80s was when the GCU
Got formed.
Yes, was formed. A lot of discussions again,
and that also I have went through,
let us say iterations, trial and
errors, some costly also.
You have had, you have had very large number of Masters
and Ph. D. students you have had,
As a supervisor.
So, can you tell something about the composition...
anything...how, just the numbers part of it,
how many you have guided so far,
and you want to say something about
your...your experience with...as a guide,
any outstanding thing you want to mention? I had
about yeah exactly 20 Ph. D. students,
and the 20 happened after I retired,
3 or 4 of them finished after...
Ok. my retirement.
About 17. I...I had to come and finish.
Before you finished. Yeah.
That’s a big number. And
Yeah. M. S. was probably around 15
or so, because in later years what happened,
a student would join for M. S.
and then convert to Ph. D.,
that also happened a couple of cases.
I have had the pleasure of having
one student along with you Ganesh. Yeah.
Correct.
You have had co-supervision with others?
Yeah, yeah I had co-supervision other... Other departments.
Mechanical Engineering with Professor Shanmugam. Shanmugam, Shanmugam ok.
Doctoral student, yes.
So. And all your students are in mostly in universities
or industry because they could go either way
I think more on the academic side.
Some are...would be something like 60-40,
60 percent academics and 40 percent corporate. And
Mostly on the same production,
or you have had any diversity?
There has been diversity.
Because we have worked on drugs.
See my research was on a subject called inventory control,
I didn’t have much faith in the subject itself
and its relevance as I moved into...
Faculty and started guiding.
If I almost have no student who worked on
the same subject that I did my Ph. D. in.
Early years it was largely on manufacturing systems,
cellular manufacturing system flexible. Right, right I remember.
Manufacturing system and all that
and after the '90s that also changed,
there was a period in between where...yeah '95
or so, I got to become Professor,
I thought I must help my younger colleagues.
We were in the Humanities Department
and a very few students who were
coming in for doctoral programme.
So, for the next 4-5 years I did not take any. Take any.
Doctoral students, I took masters students,
but not for Ph. D. Then it revived in about 2001
or so, thereafter I had a regular flow
of doctoral students again.
And, by then, again I shifted to vehicle routing problems.
Right.
And the last 15 years or so, it was largely
in the area of logistics, vehicle routing then...
Supply chain. Freight train
Scheduling, convoy movement problem,
supply chain management broadly is...
The only common thing to most of these topics would
have been, they were combinatorial optimization problems,
a few went out of that also.
There was one the very classical industrial
Engineering Ergonomics kind of area also,
One or two went in that direction.
And then there was one where I had a marketing
co-guide Professor Vijaya Raghavan.
Yes.
This is one student right in fact,
two students under our joint guidance.
But I think the other topics you mentioned are also the
topics on which larger number of people are working in. Yes.
Correct.
So, that’s a good...
Yeah. Group kind of thing mostly. Yeah.
So, I would like to now ship the direction
of the conversation into something that
on which you would...you you can talk
a lot, that’s about the music.
So, can you tell us about the story of the Music Club
here, of which you were the founder and integral part? No, I was not the founder.
Ok. So, you tell the...tell the story, yeah.
See, I came in...in August 1971. What I got to know was
the Music Club started in October 1970
or so, and the early members who were actively associated
with the Music Club, were Professor M. Venugopal,
Professor Sampath, Professor Narayan Rao,
and then there was Professor V. S. Raju.
Yes. Professor Raju was the first treasurer of the Music Club,
Professor Narayan Rao was the Secretary.
I see.
And, it's also important to record that
Professor Narayan Rao had a Technical Assistant,
an STA by name Balasubramanium, R. Balasubramanium.
He was the person who did most of the contacting
of musicians and fixing up of concerts and all that.
For some time, CLT was under renovation
or it was taken over for air conditioning,
it was not available to us.
And, they gave us a venue on the first floor of BSB,
where subsequently the IBM 370
mainframe computer was located. I see, I see.
So, I have attended a couple of concerts there also.
And even before I got...yeah associated with the Music Club,
I think I got an invitation to perform in the Music Club
and that was at CLT, I remember that.
And then gradually got into the committee,
and became a volunteer, and my association
with Music Club has been from grassroots level.
So I have gone around distributing circulars,
spreading carpets on the floor,
all kinds of odd jobs that I have done.
Subsequently, went on to become
Joint Secretary, Secretary later on
President. So, this would be like a seasonal.
Yeah. Like we have even now.
Not so regular every month or something.
No...at all times what we use to do is this,
we keep track of the academic calendar.
So at the end of a. Space.
Periodical cycle,
When there is a break, we try to have concerts.
So, that students will be able to attend,
and the student membership was much higher in those days.
I see.
A concert by M. D. Ramanathan would
have at least half the CLT full.
Has M. D. Ramanathan come here?
I see.
Amongst the stalwarts who have come into this
I think the very first concert was Ramnath Krishnan.
The second was Lalgudi Jayaram, these happened
before I came in, and then we have brought
in Chembai Vaidyanatha Bhagavathar,
I remembered twice I got Alathur Srinivasa Iyer.
With Palghat Mani Iyer on the mridangam.
And then Semmangudi has sung here once with.
K. V. N. T. N. Krishnan and Palghat Raghu.
K. V. N. many times.
Many times I see. Yeah.
M. S.?
M. S. we couldn’t get, D. K. Pattammal has sung
quite a few times, so has M. L. V.
So M. S. Subbulakshmi was the only person.
These are all '70s. Yeah.
Balamuralikrishna we have brought in,
Chitti Babu, Balachander we got him once. So all the. Yeah.
Mandolin Srinivas.
Ok.
I still...still remember somewhere in 1988,
when Mandolin Srinivas played.
Mandolin I remember, I was...'88,
I was very much here.
The CLT was so packed.
Yes.
That except the place where the artists sat,
there were people everywhere on the field, jam packed.
So you are of course, you are...even otherwise had
a network of you know relationship with many musicians.
Yeah, actually I would say that working for
that Music Club also helped me network with musicians. Yeah
So that was what...I am going to ask. Yeah.
So that helped me build contacts, rapport with
the musicians, and that came handy during How did you.
Difficult times
For example, when I went off campus, see...'79 to '88
I was not on campus, I was coming from outside.
So at that time I was not so actively associated
with music because, there were others
who were living on campus who could run it.
When I came back in '88, then...there was this talk,
and Music Club they said was not in
good shape, it was struggling and so on.
Financially or?
Yeah, financially also. I was...I was just going to ask
all these big personalities you
brought, then sanmanam for them.
Yeah.
What’s the kind of scale... See the renumeration,
I...again if you look at
value of money, in the '70s, the membership
was the order of 2 rupees per head,
3 rupees per head, something like that.
And I could finish a senior concert in 300 rupees.
Of all...
All to...
All together except the transport.
Yeah, I mean if I pay 300 to the main artist,
he would distribute it amongst the accompanying artists
and that was all that was required because,
as I said the value of money. That's a...that's a 3...3 hour concert.
3 hour concerts, those were not problems then.
And yes we have lived through the inflation and
Fine. Then
periodically raising the subscription rates, raising the remunerations
Its gives an idea of.
Yeah.
Kind of budget you have to manage...
There were times when we had to plead with
the musicians saying, "We can’t afford so much,
so please accept what we have to offer" and so on.
And, I still remember '88 when I took over,
and by then remunerations had gone up, I phoned up
the famous flautist
Sri Ramani.
And, said "Sir, Sharanagathi."
He understood.
My club is..."I can pay you only this much,
but please don’t say no", and he accepted.
I still remember, T. Rukmini was the violin accompaniment.
And after that we gradually...within about 6 months
I was able to get Mandolin Srinivas.
So when you say... The significant change was, after that, the role
of student volunteers increased significantly.
From that point of time, and I gave them a free hand,
we...the discussion was only whom to invite, so up
to that point, I would be there, part of the discussion.
I gradually encouraged them to contact
musicians, fix up dates, coordinate et cetera.
What happened as a result was, see, the students
were a floating population, year after year,
the office bearers would change.
So get them in the second year.
Depending on the student capability, attitude et cetera,
the performance of the Music Club also would fluctuate.
Year to year.
But most of the years I think I had a good bunch of students.
So, and...
Any...any unusual thing happened? Like,
with musician not turning up, but turn...or CLT power going off.
We...we have had for example...we fixed the concert,
and had to call it off because of a heavy downpour,
that’s happened more than once.
One concert I remember was Vedavalli
I think we ourself would not come in
so in...in the light of it, you might
Yeah. You would call them and say not...
They pleaded, "Let’s not have the concert"
Fine. "Its raining too heavily."
So, those kind of things have happened.
Are you recording everything, even with then? No.
When did the recording idea start?
Recording. I think we can have good archives
of that, even for the last 10 years.
It was only late Professor Swaminathan of
Physics Department who took
an active interest in recording.
So...at...during his period, concerts were recorded,
but unfortunately since he died a bachelor,
we don’t know where those recordings are What about from late
'80s onwards, when you were...
We had not recorded because...
Since, the last 10 years? Even then, oh!
See, recording was not a practice
because artists could object to it.
I...I know some unauthorized recordings have happened,
but we did generally did not encourage recording.
I see.
In fact, there was an another interesting...
we also did not encourage the sudden request in,
slips coming and accepted the fag end of the concert. Right, right.
And some of them were irrelevant, untimely
and embarrassing also.
For example, somebody towards the end
of the concert will say, "Can you sing Entharomahaanubhaavulu, or Vatapi Ganapathim."
Ok.
So...I...these were the kind of requests which...
if the slips come to me, I would sit in the first row...just squeeze
the paper, not pass it on at all. Right, right.
It happens, I mean I...I don’t blame a member of the
audience for being ignorant, but I also request...
You somebody has to take control of the...
That member understand that all requests. Yes.
cannot be forwarded indiscriminately.
What about your sports interests,
have you played been part of any team of...
Yeah yeah. Cricket or.
The only time I think within the hostel
some intra-hostel a little bit of cricket.
6 side or something?
Little bit of cricket within the hostel, just once.
Otherwise largely inactive in sports.
Other...as a result of being part of this campus,
is...you are...any specific music
you would have anyway pursued.
But, as a result of being in this campus, other
than music, any special interest that grew
out of being in the campus?
I would say there has been a lot of learning about...
its a...political systems, economics and the left view
and the right view and all of those
and within the hostel we would have these arguments.
Views.
And, I still remember what I...a friend and my confessed.
As a result of all these endless arguments,
I had, he was not as hard a leftist
as he was in the beginning
and I was not as hard a rightist
As you were.
All of us kind of opened up. And by the time
I left the place I have come to the conclusion
that there is nothing like right or wrong.
And, value judgment itself has become
a big question mark, it...we...each of us have our
own baggage, with that we try to judge.
What about your experience as a resident of this campus?
I mean you have lived there in the campus for nearly. Yeah.
25 years.
Yeah.
Both the hostel sector and
Yes.
Later outside.
No, I am...I am talking as a faculty
Yeah.
And, the residential section.
No, the one point which I must mention here,
at all times I have noticed that if
there were maintenance issues in the hostel,
the Engineering Unit did not respond well,
I am sorry to say this, for leaking taps
or let’s say lighting not working, whatever.
The repairs or the replacements did not happen
quick enough and I think this...quite a few wardens of
later years also would testify to. That was always...
This was in the '80s, '90s? Yeah.
And things...
Yeah, see it is...it is like this, attitudinally
we have this problem, and couple of times
I have told the staff also, not just
Engineering Unit staff that, you all think
students are a burden, students are a nuisance,
but remember we won’t exist here
if the students did not come. Right, right.
Right.
So, why don’t you...
I think this is the point you made in the...
My farewell speech.
Farewell speech as well.
Now, coming to the resident side. I spent about
8 years on Adyar Avenue, D-30, it was a new block.
I was your neighbor. Yeah
and then we move to Lake View Road
and there were some interesting wildlife scenes also,
its a...and the...its a more crowded Adyar Avenue itself.
There was a bird which I have never seen,
but the early morning it would sing
and it would sing to tune, and that was far more musical
than the much more...let’s say the popular cuckoo.
This was the early morning 4 o’ clock you know. Yes.
Right.
I...I even remember sometimes, the bird would go out
of tune, correct itself and then sing again.
I see.
But, I still don’t know what the bird looks like
and I don’t know the bird still goes around.
Another bird which I have seen which in those days
and subsequently I never got to see was a white bird
with a long tail it shaped like a 'W.'
And, the tail would, let’s say
Huge.
Move beautifully when the bird flew,
and that bird again I could never see.
A third interesting wildlife experience,
there were cockroaches in my house.
I pushed them out of the balcony
and as the cockroach was falling, it was still alive,
a kingfisher swooped down
and caught the cockroach mid air and ate it.
Ok. So, that’s what they are good at.
Scenes which we could not film then.
So, quite a few interesting experiences.
After moving into Lake View Road, the interesting
thing is, quite a few instances of snakes
coming into the house, once when I had gone out
there was a snake sitting inside my veena.
Oh. And my wife noticed it, she called the security,
and by then we had become so friendly with snakes,
that her fervent plea was "Please do not kill the snake."
Just enable them to
Yeah. get out.
I...I remember another day, early morning,
I got up, opened the front door
and there was a snake, it saw me and quickly
Went away.
Crossed the road and went to the other side.
I think you had the you had the lake...
Yeah.
nearby though you suffered I think, one...a few times
The flooding has happened quite a few times. I think the
lakes presence near your home. Yeah,
it was great. Something unique.
And sometimes we used to go stand near the lake
and there would be a gentle breeze blowing,
pleasant viewing, and there were interesting
birds which come to the lake also.
The black cormorant, I have seen a painted stork.
More interesting than the lake is the swamp in front of my house,
which would be filled with water during the rainy season.
Yeah. Some of the birds
Will come there. Would nest during that season, by that time
the water dries up, the chicks would have flown off.
So they were safe. And another instance
I remember was, we saw a snake, which had caught a
kingfisher, the...this kingfisher was still in its mouth,
and my neighbor Dr. Maha Seshsayee says, "Can’t
we do something to save the poor bird?" Nothing...
You have witnessed
Yeah. it happen.
So, these are all part of living with the wild.
In fact...my early years I have seen this also,
monkey plucking some fruit and throwing
it down for the deer to eat. The deer
looked up, the monkey responded,
they had also lived in harmony.
I don’t know how often we get to see that,
but consequently I could see that the black buck
population was much higher in the early years,
and I have seen them hop around,
fantastic sight, that did not happen.
Somewhere in between that there was an obsession
for fencing all the departments that caused... Most of it was removed now.
Yeah, subsequently the fences have gone,
but, there is still, let us say, a nostalgic recall of
a campus which had fewer buildings, fewer people,
fewer cars, hardly 5 cars on the campus
Yes.
In the '70s when I came in, and there were more
bird species. Many of the birds, I mean I did not know
the name, I can’t identify them.
Right. But, a lot of those birds have vanish...vanished,
and of course, one of the wildlife expert...see it
was less wooded then, so what Mr.
Ranjit Daniel apparently has said is, that "As
the true...tree grew up and formed a canopy,
the monkeys could dart across over the trees,
and they did a lot of damage to the birds' nests.
The birds lost their comfort zone. So isolated trees
are better than the canopy formation is what seems
to be the lesson. Of course, it is too late.
So, one question I want to pose, sort of counterfactual
now, we still follow broadly 8 to...classes begin by 8 o’ clock.
Yeah. And, finish for the students, and I personally even
now prefer early the class the better.
Of course, the...from the students'
point of view its all the changing.
Yeah. They would like to see even at least 10 o’ clock.
Not 9 o’ clock, 8 o’ clock or later, what would
be your reaction today, you know seeing
the class 8 o’ clock half of whom not had a bath,
not had breakfast, not had slept,
would you have enough enthusiasm? I think...
This is a
See morning bath was a casualty even in those days. Right.
The moment you get the freedom of
a hostel life, bath is your option, ok.
Yeah.
So, or how often you wash your clothes et cetera.
That’s ok.
Right. Second is about...
Personal hygiene.
Skipping the breakfast and not having had sleep.
So, its really a...you need enormous
motivation yourself, to front, to motivate.
How would you respond to the situation? See
what I would say is this, the...the
the student attitudes have also changed,
there possibly more students were a little more serious
about Engineering, than there are now.
Today it is simply a social pressure which puts
a lot...pushes a lot of reluctant students into the IIT system.
So as a teacher how would you handle an 8 o’ clock
class in this kind of ambience?
See. To that’s the...
I...I would go by. So as a...as a lesson for others.
I would go by what our former Director Professor Ananth
used to say, "There are a few front benchers
who are motivated and who listen to you,
you lecture to them and come out
don’t worry about the rest."
And I have seen a clear three way classification:
front benchers who are interested, motivated,
will listen to you, will not sleep,
and then there was a middle row, which is ok.
And then there is a last one third,
they won’t come with notebooks,
they will just come there and...there is a...put their heads down
and sleep, they are there only for
the attendance, nothing else, they're not bothered.
And, in a class of 80,
it doesn’t make sense for me to bother.
Only if they bother others.
See...it...yeah that’s...one thing is, I have never had
this problem of indiscipline in
the form of student shouting or chatting or
That rarely. Disrupting my class.
Yes. That doesn’t happen in IIT.
Yes, yes.
I have heard that that also used to happen in the '60s.
So student indiscipline of that kind has not been
there, student indifference, plenty.
That’s true. Right.
So, indifference you have to put up with
because, India, we still don’t have a society
which allows every kid to choose
what he/she wants to do, right?
It is still pushed by society, status, prestige and so on.
So, anything else you would like to talk about as part
of your journey, that that would otherwise not reach others?
Yeah, on the culture side, '70 was a time
when student competitions at an inter-hostel level
would bring full crowds to OAT or CLT,
wherever that was. '74 was when...yeah before '74
it was the inter-collegiate stuff was...
there was no Mardi Gras.
Local colleges would be invited to participate, there would
be about 10 or 12 colleges, and in the same format
as inter-hostel, you were given 45 minutes,
you do whatever you want, with your talent.
And, this is...this incident I have narrated before,
Madras Medical College was on stage,
and their MC announced that somebody is going
to play western classical music on the violin.
The moment they said classical a lot of
the students started walking out.
This person came and started playing, the people
who walked out came back, you know
who the violin player was? L. Subramaniam Oh!
They didn’t know who was L. Subramaniam. No.
They just heard and. Yes.
That’s it.
L. Subramaniam was not known.
Right.
But after he played...
He had not become such a big then,
they were playing as a trio, Carnatic concerts,
he and his brothers but...
But, the power of his music. Yeah.
Fantastic.
So, that was an interesting incident,
then after Mardi Gras started and we classified
You. The events into, let’s say there was a
separate competitions for classical music, light music, western
music, debate everything...
So, you were actively involved in that part of the Mardi Gras.
Mardi Gras couple of years as coordinator and all that.
No, but you would actively engage
Yes.
Being you know. That’s what.
Part of Mardi Gras.
Classical music shows at least have been coordinated,
even light music one year I think I was the coordinator.
And, interesting thing was, through the '70s
the audience turnout was good.
Later years I found that even in a small classroom,
you don’t get anybody other than the participants and
people who come with them.
The interests have completely changed, of course,
TV came somewhere in the late '70s, it was black
and white TV and then it was color TV
and afterwards that time nobody stop
let’s say watches TV also now.
TV has come in and gone out,
TVs exists in common rooms possibly, except
for some interesting cricket matches or
so, I go doubt if people watch
the TV in the common room.
So, lot of things have changed.
Ok. So, several of your students particularly
the B. Techs who are now abroad,
are you...I am sure you are in touch with many people,
but would you say you...you are still in
in contact with a large number of them?
No, no, its only a small number,
social media has helped, Facebook
Through the social. Through Facebook.
How many of them are in academics?
I think amongst those who went to US, a fairly good number.
30-40 of would be in academics. Yeah yeah.
And they had passed through the either the
Management Department or IIM department?
No, no. Or not necessarily.
Mostly undergrads. Undergrads.
Whom I taught.
Yes ok. Yeah,
And couple of them have gone on record saying,
I was inspired to pursue operations research
because of Professor so and so. Yeah.
So, thank you very much for sharing with us your Thank you
long journey, I am sure those who have
an opportunity to listen and watch the video later
on, will have much insights into the campus life
of...through you, the campus and the institution.
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Prof. P.V. Subrahmanyam in conversation with Prof. Vetrivel
It’s my pleasure to invite Professor P. V. Subrahmanyam. He is a
retired…from IIT…Department of Mathematics, IIT Madras
to this Oral History Interview, on behalf of Heritage Centre IIT Madras.
And I…Professor P. V. Subrahmanyam
been here for more than 3 decades here in IIT Madras,
and I am…I am so happy to interview him on behalf of the Heritage Centre.
Sir, welcome, sir,
Thank you.
to the Heritage Centre, and
I know…I don’t know whether you remember,
I have been associated with you for more than 30 years.
In fact How can I forget that you were a student here initially,
Yes sir, yes sir, yes sir. And then you were my colleague.
Yes, yes sir, as a student Even a fortnight back you conducted a symposium
for which I was an invited speaker.
Yes, sir. So, how can I forget?
Yes, yes, yes, sir.
Still I…I remember those days, when I came here for…as a Ph.D. student,
you were in the interview committee,
and, afterwards, you were…in…for my core course,
you were the teacher for my course on functional analysis.
Ok. Still I can remember, whatever I know in function analysis, is mainly
what you have taught during that period for our batch.
Especially, I still remember the…what you taught about
reflexive spaces and their properties,
still I remember what you taught from G. F. Simmons topology.
Well, I don’t know all the details…and
thank you for your kind words about my course.
That is what I can tell at this moment.
I cannot recall whatever details you are conveying.
Of course, functional analysis has become one of the
most important branches of mathematics,
both from a theory point of view, as well as applications.
Yeah, and sir, I just want to know I…I know when I
joined here, you were Associate Professor or something
and afterwards I…I…I don’t know much about your previous…I
I know that you have done Ph.D. here, IIT Madras
under Professor P. V. Subbarao.
And then before…I…I just want to know about your
education background before you joined IIT Madras.
Well, I did my…I was born and brought up in Chennai only.
My father lived for a couple of years in the CLRI quarters,
he was a scientist from Central Leather Research Institute.
And I studied in a school in Adyar
called at that time called Rani Meyyammai High School,
later on it had become into Kumara Raja Muthiah Chetti School or something.
Prof. Vetrivel: Yes sir, yes sir.
Muthiah Chettiar was the patron of the school.
When we studied, it was a co-educational school and
though the infrastructure was not very impressive, we had fine teachers.
Mention must be made of one Ms. L. K. Ganga Bai,
who taught us English as well as geography.
She used to live just opposite to the school, and
took great interest in educating us.
She used to bring issues of National Geographic,
encyclopaedia and teach us various subjects.
She was herself a women’s champion in chess
Prof. Subrahmanyam: in the city for several years. Prof. Vetrivel: Okay.
And all that gave a good academic background for many of us.
Prof. Vetrivel: I see.
Later on, I joined the Vivekananda College in Mylapore,
which had a an excellent tradition in mathematics.
Prof. Vetrivel: Yes.
I did my Pre-University, and then moved on to do B.Sc.,
Prof. Subrahmanyam: although many of my uncles on the paternal side were chemists. Prof. Vetrivel: Okay.
And on my maternal side, they were into humanities.
Prof. Vetrivel: Okay.
So I was the first deviant opting for mathematics.
Prof. Vetrivel: Okay.
I thought, if you learn mathematics,
Prof. Subrahmanyam: you will know…most of the sciences you can understand. Prof. Vetrivel: Okay.
That's how I ventured into mathematics.
Prof. Vetrivel: Okay.
I must confess, mathematics is not my cup of tea how…
however, over the years, I cultivated a special liking for mathematics,
despite my…my handicaps.
Prof. Vetrivel: Okay.
And, in Vivekananda College we had excellent teachers,
and after finishing my B.Sc. there,
I didn’t join the engineering courses, etc.
My father also encouraged me to pursue my own,
I mean my line of thinking.
After finishing my B.Sc., I could have joined the MIT,
Madras Institute of Technology.
Yes, there used to be a programme.
At that time, they had a 3 year programme in engineering. Yes.
I also join…I mean could have joined the M.Sc. programme
in Vivekananda College in Mathematics Department.
But then, one of our family friends from my maternal side,
one Professor K. N. Venkataraman, who was later
the Head of the Department of Statistics in Madras University.
He said, “IIT Madras Mathematics Department is rated
the best in South India, why don’t you join there?”
And then I joined, after I took the entrance exam,
they conducted an entrance exam, it was
Okay.
locally done at that time, unlike the JAM and other exam.
Which year it was sir?
I think it was in the year 1969.
’69, okay.
’69. I did M.Sc. here during ’69-‘71.
’71, okay.
Prof. Subrahmanyam: So, at that time Professor Nigam was the Head of the Department. Prof. Vetrivel: Okay.
Professor S. K. Srinivasan was another Professor, the…
but there were no more Professors in the department,
we had a…a young Assistant Professor by the name Dr. K. M. Das,
Prof. Vetrivel: Das, yes sir.
who was a student of Zeev Nehari from the Carnegie Institute of Technology,
and then we had other Assistant Professors like Dr. K. R. Parthasarathy,
well known graph theoretician,
Dr. R Subramaniam who was into operations research.
Prof. Vetrivel: Yes sir.
Then Dr. K. N….U. N. Srivastava who was at that time, an Associate Lecturer
or Lecturer or something, and they had at that time,
when I joined, revised the syllabi.
Prof. Subrahmanyam: So, every semester we used to have 4 subjects. Prof. Vetrivel: Okay.
The lectures were from 8 to 12 in the morning,
Prof. Subrahmanyam: and after 12, after our lunch in the hostel, Prof. Vetrivel: Okay.
We are…we were let free to spend the rest of the day in the library.
Prof. Vetrivel: Library, okay.
Working out problems, looking up books and so on.
Prof. Vetrivel: Okay, okay.
So, at that time the syllabi were equipoise between
pure mathematics and applied mathematics.
So in the first semester we had real analysis, complex analysis,
Prof. Subrahmanyam: then tensor analysis and then linear algebra. Prof. Vetrivel: Okay.
In the second semester, one Dr. Jyoti Chaudhuri at that time,
Prof. Vetrivel: Okay, we don’t know.
subsequently she was…she became Jyoti Das.
Prof. Subrahmanyam: She was a student of Titchmarsh? Prof. Vetrivel: Okay.
And then she worked in differential equation,
but then later on she moved to University of Calcutta.
I also met her couple of years back.
She was teaching…she taught us differential equation,
ordinary differential equations.
Prof. Vetrivel: Okay.
So in the second semester we had ordinary differential equations,
then measure theory, algebraic structures and
Prof. Subrahmanyam: then Hamiltonian mechanics. Prof. Vetrivel: Okay.
Prof. Subrahmanyam: So we had the book by Goldstein, Prof. Vetrivel: Yeah.
which used to be rated very highly by physicists
and others, and in the third semester we had topology,
Prof. Subrahmanyam: then continuum mechanics. Prof. Vetrivel: Yeah okay.
And then…continuum mechanics,
Prof. Subrahmanyam: partial differential equations, Prof. Vetrivel: Okay.
Prof. Subrahmanyam: and numerical analysis. Prof. Vetrivel: Okay.
And in the fourth semester, fluid mechanics,
Prof. Subrahmanyam: then one elective we…I was again guided by Professor… Prof. Vetrivel: Professor Das.
Professor Venkataraman of Madras University, he said, “Take stochastic processes.”
And then I took stochastic processes and then electromagnetic theory.
Prof. Subrahmanyam: And then functional analysis. Prof. Vetrivel: Okay.
So, at that time, the teachers; most of them were
not specialists in pure mathematics
like the topics in topology, functional analysis, algebra et cetera.
Most of them were Applied Mathematicians.
Like fluid mechanics, operations research and so on.
But they read on their own and then delivered the goods
so and the process was a little difficult
for both the teacher and the student, nevertheless,
they rose up to the occasion,
we also hopefully did justice by satisfying their tough questions
Prof. Subrahmanyam: In the exams and so on. Prof. Vetri: Examination.
About the stochastic process,
Professor Srinivasan who was deemed an authority on applied
Prof. Vetrivel: Stochastic. Prof. Subrahmanyam: stochastic processes and probability theory,
originally did not want to give that course.
Prof. Subrahmanyam: Although, many research scholars were eager to take that course. Prof. Vetrivel: Okay.
And then, I went and represented to him, because there are only 3 students
Prof. Subrahmanyam: who would opt for stochastic. Prof. Vetri: Stochastic processes.
Prof. Subrahmanyam: So he agreed and they gave that course. Prof. Vetrivel: Okay okay.
See at that time, the department approach was different.
So, they used to set up…set a question paper
Prof. Subrahmanyam: and it was all absolute grading, you have to get 50 marks Prof. Vetrivel: Oh.
Prof. Subrahmanyam: to pass the course. Prof. Vetrivel: Ok.
Otherwise, you will be finished,
Prof. Subrahmanyam: you will have to repeat the course. Prof. Vetrivel: Okay.
I mean, you have to rewrite the course,
if you fail in that you will have to repeat the course.
Repeat.
It was so tough. And then, there were a number of elective subjects
offered in the fourth semester, including graph theory,
topological dynamics, a specialization of Professor Das, and so on.
Here, I must mention about the method of teaching
or lecturing in the department at that time.
See, there was no…what should I say…we don’t…
we didn’t expect the kind of teaching we were exposed to in the colleges.
There, the approach was different.
They used to describe a theorem and go on working out riders and problems,
a number of problems to illustrate the point.
Here, we were all bombarded with concepts and so many theorems.
You imagine, the whole of Bartle, real analysis
Prof. Subrahmanyam: was covered in one semester. Prof. Vetrivel: Okay.
Plus, Fourier series from Rudin’s Principles
Prof. Subrahmanyam: of Mathematical Analysis. Prof. Vetrivel: Mathematical Analysis.
It was really tough, and we do not know how we could
understand the intricacies of various proofs.
Because, they were all classical theorems
proved by eminent mathematicians like Heine, Borel , Cantor and so on.
Anyway, we have managed to survive,
that is what I would put it, and the teachers,
they used to refer to several books.
So, for…for instance, let Professor K. R. Parthasarathy,
when he taught measure theory,
Prof. Subrahmanyam: he initially started with Berberian, then from Halmos. Prof. Vetrivel: Halmos.
Then from Taylor, then from Kingman and so on,
it was really very difficult for us to cope with the development of the subject
because their notations, their approaches were all different anyway,
that's how probably that is the reason why we were asked
to spend the rest of the day in the library.
In the library okay, okay. And I…I am sure, I mean you have a great memories and…
So it was an…I mean unforgettable programme in my life.
Okay, okay, okay.
Because I…I…as I told you, I am not really a mathematically oriented person.
Okay, okay.
And in order to understand the abstract ideas of topology and all that,
Prof. Subrahmanyam: I had to work throughout the day after my lunch. Prof. Vetrivel: Okay.
In my own way, and I avoided going to various…
yeah, I mean I didn’t go…go for entertainments,
say, films and all that, of course,
Prof. Vetrivel: So it was a drastic difference from the B.Sc. time to. Prof. Subrahmanyam: Yeah, B.Sc. to
Prof. Vetrivel: M.Sc. Prof. Subrahmanyam: M.Sc. was. Prof. Vetrivel: Okay, okay.
Total…I mean it’s a kind of cataclysmic change, I should say.
I see, okay, okay. How about now nowadays for our
M.Sc. programme, we have a project at the fourth year…
at the second year, fourth semester.
No, at that time what happened was,
every semester, we had to appear for a viva voce.
Viva voce, oh okay.
And, they used to ask questions from all the topics we had studied.
It was really nightmarish, so…so to say.
Okay, okay.
But fortunately, the teachers were also considerate,
they understood our limitations,
and didn’t inflict the pain which was more…
Prof. Subrahmanyam: more unbearable than we could take. Prof. Vetrivel: Okay.
So, after your M.Sc., in 1971 you…
Yeah, what I did was, I thought this type of mathematics
which I got exposed to, was
too much for me, and I thought of going for other places to do Ph.D. and so on.
I was selected for an M.Phil. programme in Madurai University.
I didn’t want to go for M.Phil.,
at that time, Matscience which…which was a
a neighbouring institute, they were entertaining Ph.D. students.
So, nearly 12 of us, not all from IIT,
from various places joined.
Unfortunately, the Matscience was funded on a
quarterly basis by the state government
and the Department of Atomic Energy.
So, they didn’t expect the…
they were expecting a huge chunk of funds,
which unfortunately didn’t materialize.
So, most of us except one girl in pure mathematics,
Prof. Vetrivel: They got in.
they were all…I mean turned down.
We had to go…and unfortunately,
that was the end of August, and in no other place you would be…
they would be calling for application and so on.
For Ph.D. position and so…
anyway, I was studying at home for some time.
And then, in the meanwhile, I used to…
I cultivated some people in the Ramanujan Institute
which was the University of Madras, Mathematics Department
and I used to discuss with some people
and, even while at Matscience,
I had got some ideas about fixed point theorems I developed,
and in the December of ‘71,
I…’72 I should say,
I presented a paper in the Indian Mathematical Society Conference at Bhopal.
Prof. Vetrivel: Bhopal, okay.
And then, I…there I came into contact with
the well-known probabilist Professor K. R. Parthasarathy,
who was at that time in University of Bombay.
Prof. Vetrivel: Oh okay.
So he asked me to come to Bombay and join him,
but then, it was the time of Telangana agitation and so on.
I had narrowly escaped being stranded in the
Bhopal station while travelling to
To Chennai.
Chennai…and then somehow came back,
and meanwhile, after encouraging me to apply
to University of Bombay and all that,
Professor K. R. Parthasarathy had moved to IIT Delhi.
IIT Delhi.
So I looked at all these things,
I thought my alma mater should be the better place and I applied here.
Prof. Vetrivel: Your IIT Madras. Prof. Subrahmanyam: And I was entertained here.
At that time also,
it was not cakewalk…there were many
Prof. Vetrivel: Many candidates. Prof. Subrahmanyam: Competitors, there we had to be interviewed, and I was selected.
Okay.
Though I was not placed in the top rank,
I got the 4th rank or 5th rank, something like that.
Kesavan was also selected at that time.
Oh, okay.
He was 2 years junior to me in…
Okay.
IIT Madras.
Okay, okay and…
And then, I…I was assigned Professor U. Subb…V. Subbarao,
who wanted me to work in numerical analysis
Prof. Vetrivel: Yeah.
and so on. But he gave me a book to present lectures from,
that was a nice book by Ortega and Rheinboldt
on non-linear equations and iterative methods or something like that.
Other members in the group were one
Dr. Jain who then left for IIT Delhi, numerical analysis man,
Dr. R. P. Agarwal who was a post-doc at that time,
He later on moved to Italy,
from there he moved to…
Prof. Vetrivel: UK.
US.
Prof. Vetrivel: Yeah.
He is active still.
So, we started discussing on these topics,
every alternate day, I used to present from that book.
It was going on for a couple of weeks,
then, the great strike took place here.
Prof. Vetrivel: I see. Prof. Subrahmanyam: The hostel staff and the
Prof. Vetrivel: Okay. Prof. Subrahmanyam: administrative staff had lot of grievances,
and every day they were shouting slogans,
and, one day it happened that they even broke the
water mains and water was stopped in the hostel until a crisis
blew over and we had to stop the classes, lectures.
Finally, it all…it was all sorted out.
So, in the meanwhile, I was discuss…considering
some more aspects of my own problem
and Subbarao was a nice gentleman.
He encouraged me to pursue my own line of
Prof. Vetrivel: Okay.
thinking and research, but all the time,
he was insisting on…look for applications.
I was also happy that I could get a paper
published in the Journal of Approximation Theory and so on.
At that time, the concept of Ph.D. courses was different.
Prof. Vetrivel: Okay. Prof. Subrahmanyam: We had one or two courses from the department.
One was done by Professor Nigam,
it was from Stakgold’s book on Boundary Value Problems.
That was the…a monograph which discussed weak solutions,
Prof. Vetrivel: Okay. distributional solutions of differential equations.
Prof. Vetrivel: Okay.
And then another course; it was a specialized course
for M.Sc., which some teacher used to give.
Then we were also asked to do one course from a sister department.
Prof. Vetrivel: Okay.
So, they were even at that time thinking of interdisciplinarity.
So I took a course on singular perturbations from Aeronautics Department.
Prof. Vetrivel: Okay. Prof. Subrahmanyam: One Professor Rajappa gave that course,
they were talking about Poincaré series and all that.
Somehow I also scraped through that course and
submitted my…my thesis in November ‘76
and then got the degree in ‘77.
’77, okay.
So…so with a couple of paper publications.
Prof. Vetrivel: Okay.
And then, at that time, the…the…the concept was either to go for
Prof. Vetrivel: Post-doctoral. Prof. Subrahmanyam: post-doctoral fellow or to seek a job.
I didn’t want to go for a post-doctoral fellow
because I feared that it might be a kind of a…a
postponing your career, and so on.
I…at that time, I also had an offer of a research associateship
or something like that from TIFR,
but I thought taking a lectureship was far better,
because you gain teaching experience,
everywhere they are asking for teaching experience.
At that time, in the Madras University and other places,
senior teachers in the colleges were encouraged to do Ph.D.,
so under that scheme, some lecturers were sent to IIT,
some to the Ramanujan Institute.
So there…there were leave vacancies as they were called.
So, I applied for that and then joined the Loyola College of
Prof. Vetrivel: Okay.
at Nungambakkam.
It was a very interesting experience,
I taught the undergraduate students, large classes,
I also taught the M.Sc. students functional analysis
Prof. Vetrivel: Okay.
from Sobolev and Lusternik.
Prof. Vetrivel: Okay. Prof. Subrahmanyam: That was a different textbook. Prof. Vetrivel: Lusternik.
Different from…the Simmons, and
then, meanwhile, I had applied to various places,
I got selected in the Madras University postgraduate centre at Tiruchi.
Probably, I was the first person to have been
appointed to a Madras University Maths Department,
because, Madras University Maths Department
was considered a citadel of pure mathematics.
Prof. Vetrivel: Okay.
And then from there, I moved over to Hyderabad Central University,
which was expected to become…like become
a great centre for sciences, humanities and so on.
And you know, that university was created to appease the Telangana
agitationists and so on,
somehow it also didn’t…it…it had lot of problems in the beginning.
Prof. Subrahmanyam: So again I felt, my alma mater is the best place. Prof. Vetrivel: Correct, correct.
And so, so I applied and got back here.
Okay, which…which year you joined here?
I remember the date 21 5 1981.
Prof. Vetrivel: Okay, fine, fine, fine.
So I joined and then I taught B.Tech., M.Sc.
And, just want to ask you, when you joined…
so the dominating subjects were like…as you said,
fluid dynamics and stochastic process.
And of course, Professor B. V. Subbarao in numerical analysis…
how you found yourself in that community, like?
Prof. Subrahmanyam: You see. Prof. Vetrivel: If you are totally a pure mathematics person.
Although the research of the department was focused on two streams,
Prof. Vetrivel: Yes sir. Prof. Subrahmanyam: Mainly
Fluid.
Fluid mechanics and stochastic process,
Prof. Subrahmanyam: already Bhattacharya had joined the department. Prof. Vetrivel: Okay.
Prof. Subrahmanyam: He was a complex analyst, and already Professor Das was there. Prof. Vetrivel: Das okay, Das was there.
Though he was a concerned with differential equations,
he was handling the bulk of the pure subjects like
Prof. Vetrivel: Okay. Prof. Subrahmanyam: Topology, functional analysis and so on.
So, they had need for people to do
teaching at the M.Sc. level and so on,
so, I won’t say it was…yeah it was not a very,
what should I say, it was not a very nice situation.
You…you see in the department,
the…you were all left to…I mean people were left to themselves.
Prof. Vetrivel: Yeah independence, independence. Prof. Subrahmanyam: You evolve on your own
Prof. Vetrivel: Yeah, that independence. Prof. Subrahmanyam: and they don’t interfere and they gave you lot of freedom.
I…I could I in fact,
I mean formulated two courses which were accepted.
Okay.
And, it was an elective on fixed point theory, probably
Prof. Subrahmanyam: that was the first course on fixed point theory which must have been Prof. Vetrivel: Yes sir, still continuing.
Prof. Vetrivel: Still continuing. Prof. Subrahmanyam: formulated in the M.Sc. syllabus anywhere in India.
Correct.
So we had formulated and when I joined, already
graph theory was being taught,
already probability theory was being taught as a core course.
Prof. Vetrivel: Okay, so many subjects were there. Prof. Subrahmanyam: So, some such
developments have taken place and I was, I mean
nobody stood in the way of my proposing other courses
in non-linear analysis and so on.
Already, Professor Subbarao has given a course on approximation theory.
So the concept at that time was, you do pure mathematics
so that the develo…it could help the development
in applied mathematics, fluid mechanics,
Prof. Vetrivel: Correct. Prof. Subrahmanyam: stochastics and so on.
In fact, I remember, Professor S. K. Srinivasan had invited Professor Athreya
an expert in probability and stochastic process for…as a visiting professor;
so that they could interact, and so on.
So, it I mean it was not as if the department
was only pursuing applied mathematics in an exclusive way,
they were open to suggestions and you know, developments.
But, there the initial period, the developments
were in fluid mechanics and
Prof. Vetrivel: Okay. Prof. Subrahmanyam: stochastic process.
How was the selection procedure, sir, those times?
Now we…you know that
since you were head of the department in the recent times,
our selection procedure is like one interview,
one presentation, then oral interview…all that.
So that…
Prof. Subrahmanyam: For the faculty or the student? Prof. Vetrivel: For a faculty…faculty.
No no it had by then, become stabilized, I should say.
Prof. Vetrivel: Okay, okay.
Because when I joined,
Prof. Subrahmanyam: I was asked to give a presentation for Prof. Vetrivel: Presentation.
10 or 15 minutes on my research topic.
Prof. Vetrivel: Okay. And then, I was interviewed in the Director’s Office.
The same…same procedure.
So, same procedure.
Prof. Vetrivel: Okay. Prof. Subrahmanyam: And, probably later on
they have added the faculty giving marks this and that,
maybe at that time also it was there,
but I didn’t know, because I was not a faculty member at that time.
Prof. Vetrivel: Okay.
I was giving the presentation and all the…all were sitting in that presentation.
Prof. Vetrivel: Okay. Prof. Subrahmanyam: All the faculty members, and maybe even other participants
other interview…persons who had
been invited for the interview.
Okay, okay. And regarding…I have heard of your…
after you joined here, I have heard of your
your conference, what you organized in the department,
which is a mega conference, I would say…
Prof. Vetrivel: on non-linear analysis, on analysis…non-linear analysis. Prof. Subrahmanyam: Yeah.
So, you see, my thinking was that,
already there was interview…the…there was interaction with
Matscience, especially Professor Vasudevan,
Professor Ranganathan and others
were interacting with Professor Srinivasan and so on.
There was also a cosmologist
at that time, by name Prasanna and so on.
So on the applied mathematics side, there was interaction.
So, analysis side, I thought I would initiate some symposium
Prof. Subrahmanyam: and Professor Unni at that time, a professor in the Matscience. Prof. Vetrivel: K. R. Unni, K. R. Unni.
He…I invited him, gave a talk and the venue was in one of the
Prof. Subrahmanyam: seminar halls of the Chemistry Lecture Theatre. Prof. Vetrivel: Okay, okay.
Prof. Subrahmanyam: I think it was in ‘83 or ‘84 Prof. Vetrivel: 4…’84.
And the proceedings were published in our journal,
at that time the department was running a journal:
Prof. Vetrivel: Journal of Mathematical Physical Sciences, yes sir. Prof. Subrahmanyam: The Journal of Mathematical and Physical Sciences.
It had a very illustrious editorial board.
Prof. Vetrivel: Okay.
Professor Lakshmikantham, Kichenassamy…many others.
Somehow, it has faded over the years.
Okay. And…I just want to know about your Ph.D. guidance, sir.
Like, your students.
One paper…you…you one of your students Dr. Chitra,
when you have done something on
a non-linear complementarity problem,
but I don’t see many papers on this direction,
though linear complementarity problem has
been well studied in the last 4-5 decades.
But this something…still people are referring whoever works on this.
I have seen this…and also your recent work with your…
your later students…like on functional equations.
See, I was specializing in fixed point theorems;
fixed point theory, you cannot say is a branch…
I mean, it is an independent branch of mathematics,
Prof. Subrahmanyam: in…in the sense that it has…it borrows techniques and tools from Prof. Vetrivel: Tools, yes.
several areas of mathematics.
So, since its applications are vast,
I naturally took interest in functional equations and optimization.
One part of optimization theory heavily
relies on fixed point theorems of the Kakutani type,
Brouwer’s fixed point theory theorem and so on.
So in that sense I entered
a non-linear complementarity problem.
In fact, what I feel is, the department should offer a…a course,
core course on optimization which is an important
Prof. Vetrivel: Yes sir, yes sir.
subject.
Now it is being considered,
Prof. Vetrivel: now we have even proposed that. Prof. Subrahmanyam: I think this is a must.
Prof. Vetrivel: Yes. Prof. Subrahmanyam: And you have to also look at the current trends
and accordingly reorient the syllabi.
In fact, Professor Subbarao conducted a seminar,
involving all the other departments, asking them to present
their views on mathematics and application,
if you have such a seminar, then.
Prof. Vetrivel: Okay. Prof. Subrahmanyam: There will be brainstorming
and new ideas may emerge,
and also you should look at the trends in top universities of the world,
for example: Oxford, Cambridge,
they are thinking of mathematical engineering…
Stanford for example, is thinking of mathematical
engineering course and so on.
So, there are also courses on mathematics education.
See, IIT is a premier institute and mathematics education programme
helps people learn how to teach mathematics
even at the school level and so on.
Now our country is facing a dearth of good teachers,
even at the school level.
So, if we can think of such a programme, it will help
our basic education in the country,
Prof. Vetrivel: Okay. Prof. Subrahmanyam: in the long run.
Prof. Subrahmanyam: So, your collegium of Professors should think along these lines Prof. Vetrivel: Sure, sure.
and come up with such novel ideas.
Of course, we have a nice programme on
Prof. Subrahmanyam: industrial mathematics. Prof. Vetrivel: Mathematics sciences, yeah.
But then the syllabi have to be revised
and see the…get the feedback of the students and reorient and so on.
Prof. Vetrivel: Okay.
If I…whole thing depends on the initiative of the faculty members and so on.
See, I would also like to add that
I had conducted a number of conferences,
when I joined in ’81, Professor Das himself organized
a big international conference on non-linear analysis,
Prof. Subrahmanyam: for which eminent mathematicians like [indistinct], Ambrosetti had come. Prof. Vetrivel: Ambrosetti, yes.
And then I organized a national symposium on analysis.
Subsequently in 2007 or so, I organized…2005
I think, I don’t remember, I organized a conference on
Prof. Vetrivel: Optimization [indistinct]
FIA…FIM IIT conference.
Prof. Vetrivel: Yes sir. Prof. Subrahmanyam: Then I tried to have a collaborative conference
with University of Madras on fuzzy sets.
So I tried to involve other departments, other institutions also.
In fact, when some Professors like Avudainayagam
others were heading the department,
I told them that I would like to have a one day workshop
on calculus for our school teachers.
And it was readily agreed, and
when I was the Executive Chairman of Association
of Mathematics Teachers in India, I conducted it here.
Prof. Vetrivel: Okay, okay.
So, such programmes you have to do and
already IIT has given you great
opportunity to organize teacher training programmes.
I organized 3 teacher training programmes:
one on non non-linear analysis, another on fuzzy sets
and another on Fourier analysis.
Prof. Subrahmanyam: I think you were also associated with Fourier analysis. Prof. Vetrivel: Yes sir, yes sir, yes sir, yes.
So these are all important
Prof. Vetrivel: Yes sir.
aspects. And see, mathematics being a very tough subject,
often repulsive for the student,
you should encourage all kinds of students to take to mathematics,
and you should not have very harshly evaluate students
Prof. Subrahmanyam: and allow them to grow Prof. Vetrivel: Okay.
in their own way,
so that their interest and enthusiasm for mathematics is not stifled.
See, what is more important now is
that people should have a liking for mathematics,
they should not abhor mathematics.
So, that being the approach, you should be able to attract
many students at several levels.
Several…I understand, sir.
Sir, and one…one I just ask you one difficult question, sir,
like, you have served in IIT Madras for more than 35-36 years,
and in that if you divide the whole service period into three parts,
which you are…how do you compare your…the growth of the department
and your experience, for example, 12 years, 12 years, the next 12 years.
How do you compare?
See, when I joined as a research scholar,
at that…at that time we had a a big conference,
national conference, they called it ISTAM, Indian Society for
Prof. Subrahmanyam: Theoretical and Applied Mechanics it was huge conference. Prof. Vetrivel: Theoretical and Applied Mechanics,
Yes, sir.
Prof. Subrahmanyam: A kind of Kumbha Mela type conference. Prof. Vetrivel: Yes, yes, yes.
So, we were all asked to bring the…we were all asked to
volunteer; get the delegates from the railway station, airport and so on.
Prof. Vetrivel: Okay. Prof. Subrahmanyam: So we are trained that way.
Prof. Vetrivel: Okay.
So, that kind of thing, whether it is being done,
and we enjoyed it actually, we didn’t resent such responsibilities,
and at that time, the Head of the Department was powerful.
And, I mean over the years, the…due to the
the trickling of democratization process,
people have become more demanding at the lower level,
and you have to take everybody together,
Prof. Subrahmanyam: otherwise growth will not be possible. Prof. Vetrivel: Correct, correct.
So, you cannot do it in a very a brusque way and put down opposition.
If it is a good suggestion, you have to take it. And a
lot of…I mean…afterwards, what…what should I say,
I mean the first 12 years, the
domination of the Head of the Department,
Professors was more, and then the power was
trickling down and so on, but at the…at no stage,
I mean, you were blocked to
Prof. Vetrivel: For anything. Yeah, so Prof. Subrahmanyam: pursue your research.
That independence is something.
Prof. Subrahmanyam: Yes, yes. See, you were not, Prof. Vetrivel: Yeah.
Prof. Subrahmanyam: I mean troubled to do this type of research or that type. Prof. Vetrivel: Correct, correct.
There were suggestions, because
IIT being an institute of technology,
it is natural to expect that what you do
has some relevance for engineering and technology; nothing wrong in that,
but they never imposed such views, only… I mean implicit…
I mean…only made indirect suggestions.
Prof. Vetrivel: Fine.
Which will act, in due course, in your subconscious.
Actually, I…Professor Subbarao
was asking me to concentrate on numerical method.
Now, I mean my…one of the…my latest students Vijaya,
she was working on Newton methods.
Prof. Vetrivel: Okay. Prof. Subrahmanyam: It was a very…
it was in the heart of numerical method, so to say.
So, that suggestion was in my subconscious
for quite some time, and it bloomed.
Okay, fine.
So, it’s a good suggestion, I should say.
Sir, and myself and my other colleagues,
we really enjoyed your headship time, that period…
what is your experience about
Well…
that period especially? I should say it was not a…
What are the new things you brought…something?
Okay, at that time, I also had to head the IIT Hyderabad…
As a mentor.
Prof. Subrahmanyam: Mathematics Department. Prof. Vetrivel: Yes, yes.
I was not living in the campus,
Prof. Vetrivel: Okay. Prof. Subrahmanyam: which would have been convenient,
but due to personal problems, I had to stay outside the campus.
So I had to avoid going outside Chennai too many times.
So what I did was, thanks to our studio,
I arranged lot of seminars for those students.
Prof. Vetrivel: Okay.
In fact, when Pro…Dr. Sivakumar from Texas
A&M University gave a course here,
Prof. Subrahmanyam: I had it telecast over there. Prof. Vetrivel: Yeah, yeah, telecasted there yes, yes.
They attended those courses and they also
Prof. Vetrivel: Okay.
I mean, took the exam.
Prof. Vetrivel: Okay, okay exam was… Prof. Subrahmanyam: When the exam was going on here simultaneously
it was conducted there, and they enjoyed it,
lot of mathematicians who were in the city
were invited to give lectures; not only here, and the lecture
Prof. Subrahmanyam: was immediately telecast there. Prof. Vetrivel: Telecasted there.
So all these things were the…done and
see, we have to take uh suggestions from all the colleagues,
whether he is a junior colleague or a senior colleague.
See that the mathematics is promoted
in the best possible way. And regarding students,
You see, you cannot experiment with the undergraduate students.
That is my thinking. You see, if somebody is
teaching a particular topic, let us say probability
and statistics in the best possible way,
do not unnecessarily disturb that arrangement and
put a raw hand to do that course
Prof. Subrahmanyam: and make a miserable situation of a nice…nicely going programme. Prof. Vetrivel: Correct.
Of course, people also have to be trained.
So, how to do that?
So, what I did was, I associated with each teacher,
a senior teacher who has taught the
subject several times, a young faculty
Prof. Vetrivel: Faculty. Prof. Subrahmanyam: who has not taught it.
So that he gains confidence, and there is interaction,
so that subsequently he can take over.
But, I am not sure whether that worked out all that…
because it was becoming like this; you split the course into two halves,
Prof. Vetrivel: Okay.
the easier half was given to the raw faculty,
Prof. Subrahmanyam: while the tougher one was. Prof. Vetrivel: Tougher one.
taken care of by the more experienced faculty.
But unfortunately, people thought half plus half plus half is more than 2,
and this kind of problem led naturally to the
collapse of the programme.
So that experiment didn’t succeed.
Okay. Sir, and one more thing
I just wanted to ask you…you…you
you were the last person who used to consider something like
the classical analysis like summability theory
and all the…used to refer the books of Blumenthal and all that,
now nobody is using or talking about those topics.
See, like every subject, mathematics also has its fashions and so on.
Prof. Vetrivel: Fine, fine.
So, if people are interested in such topics,
Prof. Vetrivel: Welcome.
there must be journals to publish,
if there are no journals, what to do?
In my time, it all clicked,
now I cannot say that you study distance geometry or some other topic.
Prof. Vetrivel: Correct. Prof. Subrahmanyam: Of course, you can pursue it as a…a passion and so on,
but we cannot inflict it on others.
Prof. Vetrivel: Okay.
who are especially
Prof. Vetrivel: Correct. Prof. Subrahmanyam: growing up in a career and all that.
Prof. Vetrivel: Okay.
So, it all changes.
See, nowadays, even departments like…I mean institutes like Oxford,
they are thinking of industrial mathematics, mathematical engineering
Prof. Vetrivel: Correct. Prof. Subrahmanyam: and things like that,
they are thinking of a programme in which actuarial mathematics,
a bit of statistics; all these things are clubbed together…data analytics,
all those things.
So, you have to be alive to the changes
in the academic world and also, I mean
train our students accordingly.
After all, globalization cannot be wished away now.
So, you have to train the students not only for the local consumption,
but also for the global requirement.
So, it’s a tough problem,
I don’t think the problems have become easy now,
it…they have become more complex.
Thank God that I have come out of it.
Prof. Vetrivel: Okay.
And you are facing all these complicated things.
Prof. C. S. Swamy: I have one question to both of you,
Prof. Swamy: you mentioned about the journal
Prof. Swamy: which was started by the Mathematics Department,
Prof. Swamy: is it continuing now?
It is with Aerospace Department,
Prof. Vetrivel: it went to Aerospace Department. Prof. Swamy: Pardon.
It is…went to Aerospace Department.
Prof. Swamy: Oh that journal is there
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Prof. Swamy: I see.
Now, there is a committee which is managing that…
Prof. Vetrivel: not regular…like what used to be. Prof. Swamy: I know that Professor Subramaniam
Prof. Swamy: of Aeronautics. Prof. Vetrivel: Yes, yes and Swaminathan was
Prof. Subrahmanyam: Yeah that… Prof. Swamy: I see. Now Subramaniam
Prof. Subrahmanyam: Yes, yes, yeah…that was Prof. Vetrivel: Oh DS.
Prof. Subrahmanyam: 20 years back or something like that. Prof. Swamy: Yeah, yeah.
Yes, yes.
Prof. Swamy: Now the…is the journal still coming?
It’s not…yeah it is still there,
Prof. Vetrivel: but not on the regular issues. Prof. Subrahmanyam: Sir
Prof. Swamy: Mathematics [indistinct]. Prof. Subrahmanyam: No no, we do…I do not know because
I am no longer associated.
Prof. Swamy: I know, you know, I am asking
Yes, yes sir, it is…the journal is still there.
But not the regular issues, like in
the number of issues per year is reduced.
Prof. Swamy: I see.
Prof. Vetrivel: And, it is managed by the Engineering Departments. yes. Prof. Swamy: Committee, committee.
There is a committee managing that.
Prof. Swamy: Another thing is, since you have joined very early,
Prof. Swamy: you know, in the initial stages
Prof. Swamy: when those who were working in differential equation all that,
Prof. Swamy: they used to say they had to manage all the calculations.
Facet machines.
Prof. Swamy: Facet calculator,
Prof. Swamy: do you have any facet calculators in your department?
No, we don’t have, you know…
Prof. Swamy: Can you find out? Because,
Prof. Vetrivel: Yes, yes. Prof. Swamy: We wanted this as…its being a Heritage Centre.
Prof. Vetrivel: Heritage Centre okay, okay, okay. Prof. Swamy: We want to have
Prof. Swamy: one model of facet calculator. Prof. Vetrivel: Okay.
Prof. Swamy: We have asked various departments.
I…I don’t think
Prof. Swamy: Engineering Department also we have to use this. Pof. Vetrivel: even in your period also there was no such.
Prof. Swamy: before the computers came in, you know.
In fact, for our numerical analysis course,
Prof. Swamy: Yeah.
We were use…we were taught how to use a slide rule
Prof. Swamy: Okay, okay Prof. Subrahmanyam: and, also a facet
Prof. Subrahmanyam: calculator yes. Prof. Swamy: Facet calculator.
Prof. Swamy: Slide rule, maybe somebody might be having,
Prof. Swamy: but facet calculator is what we were interested in.
I am told that the facet calculator company itself
Prof. Subrahmanyam: modified it into a typewriter. Prof. Swamy: I know, I know. That is the reason
Prof. Swamy: why we are looking for Prof. Vetrivel: That one, okay.
Prof. Swamy: looking for any model
Prof. Swamy: somewhere in. Prof. Vetrivel: Oh, that okay, for Heritage Centre.
Even in my tenure here,
maybe even by early ‘90s,
the machine was completely…
Prof. Swamy: Yeah, I know. Prof. Subrahmanyam: I mean it was not there in the department,
they must have condemned it;
Prof. Subrahmanyam: you have a condemnation committee in the department. Prof. Swamy: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So it is all gone.
Prof. Swamy: Another thing you said that,
Prof. Swamy: you worked or you applied for the Institute of
Prof. Swamy: Advanced Mathematics, Madras University.
Ramanujan Institute, no no, I used to interact.
Prof. Swamy: Who was the Director then?
At that time,
Prof. Swamy: Bhanumurthy?
Prof. Subrahmanyam: Yeah, Bhanumurthy was the Director. Prof. Swamy: Okay, now, Bhanumurthy’s brother is working
Prof. Subrahmanyam: Yeah, he was in Shankara, Dr. Shankara. Prof. Swamy: Shankara.
Prof. Swamy: Okay, how many years did he serve here?
I think he was…I should say, when I joined, he was there
when I was a research scholar.
Prof. Swamy: I see.
So…
Prof. Swamy: What was…what was his field?
He was doing relativity.
Prof. Swamy: I see…I see. And of course, later he took science and all that Prof. Subrahmanyam: Yeah, right.
Prof. Swamy: Yeah I know about that one.
Prof. Swamy: So…and, another thing I wanted to ask.
In 5 minutes.
Prof. Swamy: You wrote
Prof. Swamy: an article or something about Subbarao in… Prof. Vetrivel: 5 minutes
Prof. Swamy: that actor is demised.
Yeah, yeah I mailed.
Prof. Swamy: Yeah, the…I saw it in our retirees…[indistinct]
Mail.
Prof. Swamy: So, you please… Prof. Subrahmanyam: Yeah.
No, if you want, I can show…
I had collected some photographs.
Prof. Swamy: Yeah, it looked very interesting.
So, I conducted…see, the on the…I mean
I am not trying to advertise myself.
Prof. Swamy: No, no, no. Prof. Subrahmanyam: I wanted to give some aspects of our activity.
So…as I told, I was interested in organizing many
conferences, workshops and so on.
Prof. Swamy: Definitely.
So, I organized an analysis worksh…I mean…con…
symposium on the teaching of analysis, because
it should be interesting not only for students,
but also for teachers who may not be
analysts themselves, but may be teaching.
So I invited people from Ramanujan Institute,
Matscience and they all gave the
Prof. Swamy: Professor.
talks, and I even brought out the proceedings,
and I had got some snaps.
Prof. Subrahmanyam: So these are the…some snaps.
Prof. Swamy: Oh wonderful.
Some our…our…we have…
I organized a symposium,
Prof. Vetrivel: Yeah. Prof. Subrahmanyam: on teaching of analysis.
I had even brought out the
Off screen voice: Dates on…[indistinct]
I think it was the time when Avudainayagam
was the Head of the Department.
I think…it should have been around 2006,
7 or 8 or something like that.
So you also have a photograph of Professor Nigam,
Parthasarthy and others.
Prof. Swamy: Yeah, yeah that also [indistinct].
So that's how I…maybe you can keep them.
Prof. Swamy: Oh oh, thank you.
And, these are the books.
See…for the QAP short term,
(softly) I don’t know it’s some…
This was in the year,
I think it was in 1997.
Prof. Swamy: Yeah.
So, we conducted a short term course.
Prof. Vetrivel: (reads) Non-linear.
Prof. Swamy: [Indistinct]
This is the collaborative conference.
Prof. Subrahmanyam: Inter-departmental, I collaborated with
Prof. Subrahmanyam: Dr. Mohan of Civil Engineering on fuzzy sets.
Prof. Subrahmanyam: Along with Madras University.
Prof. Vetrivel: Okay.
Ande this is the first mathematical symposium
which was brought out by…our…that journal.
Prof. Vetrivel: [Indistinct]
Yeah, 1984.
Prof. Vetrivel: Yeah, this is what you were talking about.
Prof. Subrahmanyam: And then this was about 2008 something.
Prof. Subrahmanyam: I organized the Ramanujan Mathematical Society,
Prof. Subrahmanyam: I mean Ramanujan Day celebrations were already going on.
Prof. Subrahmanyam: So, we brought out the lectures
as a booklet after referring and so on.
Prof. Swamy: I want to ask one more
This is an international conference
Prof. Swamy: Yeah.
held in IIT Madras with the forum
Prof. Subrahmanyam: for inter-disciplinary mathematics Prof. Vetrivel: Yeah.
at Stella Maris College.
Prof. Vetrivel: Okay. Sir, I wanted to… Prof. Swamy: I wanted to know whether the Nobel laureate
Prof. Swamy: Professor Chandrasekhar; astrophysicist have visited your department?
Yes yes.
Prof. Swamy: Here visited.
Prof. Swamy: When was it?
‘87.
Prof. Swamy: Do you have photographs of that?
We have to ask Professor Majhi.
Prof. Swamy: Oh Majhi, is it?
Yeah, yeah, Majhi must be having…
Prof. Swamy: Oh, we will find out.
He was the organizer.
No, no we had the centenary celebrations
Prof. Subrahmanyam: of Srinivasa Ramanujan. Prof. Vetrivel: Srinivasa Ramanujan.
Prof. Vetrivel: So, he visited at that time. Prof. Swamy: Yeah. Prof. Subrahmanyam: So at that time he had come.
Prof. Swamy: Professor Chandrasekhar.
Prof. Vetrivel: Yes, yes. Prof. Subrahmanyam: Chandrasekhar had come and given a talk in the
Prof. Vetrivel: In the CLT.
auditorium of Madras University,
I do not know whether he had come here.
Prof. Vetrivel: He had come here. Prof. Subrahmanyam: Many eminent mathematicians had come.
Prof. Swamy: I was told he came only to Mathematics Department.
Prof. Vetrivel: Yes yes. Prof. Swamy: He
Prof. Swamy: didn’t gave any lecture in CLT.
Yeah.
Prof. Swamy: And, much…very much like before
Prof. Swamy: became, got a Nobel Prize, I had heard in AC College, that was in ‘60s. Prof. Vetrivel: Okay, correct.
Prof. Swamy: So, he never visited.
Prof. Swamy: So, I came to know that he used to visit Mathematics Department,
Prof. Swamy: that's why I asked you.
Prof. Swamy: And, another thing I want to know was
Prof. Swamy: number of monographs were produced from
Prof. Swamy: your department, say published by
Different.
famous…the German publishers [indistinct]
Springer.
Yes sir.
Prof. Swamy: Do you have copies of that?
Yes sir, every faculty they have copies
Prof. Swamy: So, if anything,
Yes sir.
Prof. Swamy: before it is lost,
Yes, yes.
Prof. Swamy: So we very much wish that you send it to the Heritage Centre
Prof. Vetrivel: Sure, sure, sure, sure, I will. Prof. Swamy: We would like to preserve it.
Okay, yeah.
Prof. Swamy: Okay?
Sure sure.
Prof. Swamy: Thank you very much. Prof. Vetrivel: Yeah.
Prof. Swamy: [Indistinct] So, you can carry on.
I just…finally, I end this with a couple of questions that I wanted to ask.
What is your interaction with this forum
that is interdisciplinary Forum for…you are active still I think
you are still active, you are
Prof. Vetrivel: you were a President of that society? Prof. Subrahmanyam: Yeah, I was president for two terms.
Okay.
See, Forum for Interdisciplinary Mathematics is a…
an organization which is registered at Delhi,
it was started by a couple of Delhi University Professors.
And, many eminent mathematicians
had been associated with it,
including the great statistician Professor C. R. Rao.
In fact, some IIT Directors had also been Presidents,
especially in Electrical Engineering, I don’t remember.
We have recently started a series;
Springer FIM Series for promoting publications
approved by Forum for Interdisciplinary Mathematics and so on.
So, 3 volumes have come.
In fact, one volume just arrived today at my home address,
because I am the chief editor.
Prof. Vetrivel: Okay. Prof. Subrahmanyam: They are sending copies to me.
Prof. Swamy: Okay.
So I just received a copy on game theory proceedings
conducted by one Dr. Lalita and somebody.
So, we have brought out about 4 monographs,
and 2 or 3 more are in the pipeline.
And, this forum is doing…promoting interdisciplinary mathematics;
it is concentrating on operations research,
graph theory, combinatorics, decision sciences and so on.
The only problem is mathematics has developed so vast,
any…any beginning student will be…I mean, will be puzzled
how to get into research level mathematics
in the least time, this is a big problem.
Because, methods are…so many methods have developed,
which method he has to concentrate on
so that the problem can be tackled and so on.
So, forming the right syllabi and
taking him to the research level in the shortest possible time,
these are all challenging problems.
I am told that in the US, it just takes 3 or 4 years
for a student to gain his Ph.D., but whether we can do it here,
so that that this Ph.D. student…thesis is of a decent level, these are all questions.
Of course, basic mathematical education
must be strengthened, otherwise you will not be able to attract people
for this subject which has become invasively persuasive.
Sir, and finally I just ask you one question:
You said you have lived very short period in the campus.
Yes.
What is your experience about IIT campus?
We, as faculty, we are enjoying the present B-type quarters all that.
Well, campus life was excellent, no doubt about it.
Prof. Vetrivel: Okay.
But I had built a house in the outskirts of the
city, and the tenants will not pay me the rent,
and there became a situation when I would lose the house itself.
So I had to frantically get out and stay there.
Another problem is, the campus…you have…the people here are prone
to…more prone to bronchial infections,
because of the pollen in the air and so on.
One of the Chief Medical Officers has told me that
the bronchial infection rate here is 100 percent more than in the city.
I think a couple of years or months back,
I saw some research from a Biotechnology Department
Professor saying that certain type of fungi
are present in the atmosphere due to trees or something like that,
I don’t…don’t remember the details.
So, my daughter developed wheezing problems and so on.
So, I thought that was another reason for me
to get out from the campus, and
so on. Campus life is excellent, no doubt about it because,
any time you can go to the department and work, and so on.
But of course, with the availability of laptop and so on,
it…it should not be a problem for…for a mathematician
to live outside and pursue his research.
So with this, I say I will…once again
I thank you for your visit here, sir.
And…I thank the organizer of Heritage Centre
for giving me this opportunity to interview Professor P. V. Subrahmanyam.
Thank you very much, sir.
Prof. Subrahmanyam: You’re welcome, and it’s my pleasure to have participated here. Prof. Vetrivel: Okay.
Thank you, sir.
- Contribute
to the Centre -
Monetary
Support - Digital
Material
Mr. Ramachandra R. Iyer (First batch alumnus) in conversation with Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam
Good afternoon, Mr. Ramachandra,
welcome to the Heritage Centre
[Mr. Ramachandra] Thank you. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] and to this
Oral History programme.
[Mr. Ramachandra] Thank you.
Thank you for joining us.
My pleasure.
So, it’s very exciting that
a student from the first batch of B.Tech. students
at IIT Madras can participate in this.
So, can you tell us
how you came to know about IIT
when you were joining here?
Yeah, sure sure.
Well, actually what happened there was
small advertisement in Times Of India,
it seems, "it seems" I said because
I - I don’t remember having seen it,
but my brother had seen it -
my elder brother who is 2 years and a few months older
Yes.
and he was in Ahmedabad -
I grew up in Ahmedabad -
he was going to an engineering college in Ahmedabad.
Yes.
And he said
well, why don’t you apply to IIT Madras?
I said: okay,
I mean I - I told him at that time
most probably
I won’t get admitted anyway,
because you know
in those days there were
IIT Kharagpur and Bombay.
Yes.
And there was a perception
that, I mean,
it's very difficult to get into it,
though I was,
you know, fairly a good student
and I used to get good marks in
pre-university and all those places,
but one doesn’t know actually.
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] What is required
[Mr. Ramachandra] to get into IIT. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] That’s right, that’s right.
So, I was just - made a joke
at him, ok,
I will - I'll send my papers,
application,
but don’t expect much out of it -
I told him that.
So, that’s how it happened,
he told me and …
and - and the truth is actually
I had already been admitted
to another engineering college
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yeah. [Mr. Ramachandra] in a place called Anand.
Yes.
That’s where Amul Dairy is.
That’s right.
That’s not very far from Ahmedabad.
But there was some
problem there.
So, because of that problem
I - I mean that that’s a -
a story by itself.
And the students went on -
it's something was wrong
in the mess, in the food.
So, the - the students there
went on strike
and we didn’t know,
suddenly we came to know
there was strike,
we came home.
We had already
joined the college,
'we' means
another person was -
a cousin of mine and myself -
and then it turned out that
this college was closed,
campus
everybody was asked to go home.
So, we came home.
And, when we came home
after a couple - couple of days,
I got this invitation
Yes.
to come to IIT Madras.
And you know,
appear for an interview.
Yes.
Because, before that we had
I had already sent the mark sheet
of PUC, you know, Pre-University and
high school and all of that.
Yes.
So, that’s how it happened
and then after the interview,
the interview went very well,
they were very happy
with my interview
and I got the admission, yeah.
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Alright. [Mr. Ramachandra] Yeah.
So, you actually visited Chennai
to participate in the interview?
Right, right, yeah, yeah,
from Ahmedabad,
[Mr. Ramachandra] yeah, yeah. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yeah.
That’s correct, yeah,
though I have visited
Chennai many times
because, I have relatives here.
Right.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So, what was the
interview process like?
Who was there on the interview panel?
Can you recall - recollect anyone
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] was there? [Mr. Ramachandra] I can’t remember the names
of - of the people
but there were certainly
3 people minimum
that much I remember.
And the content of the interview
that I remember
because there again
what happened is
they were asking me
why do you - I mean,
what is your fa - In those days
I don’t know how it is today,
it was very common to ask
what is your father doing?
You know
because very often the children
followed the profession of the father.
Yes.
That was
or at least they want to find out
it's just doctor’s family
or lawyer’s family whatever.
Yes.
So, now, my - I told them
my father is in the textiles mills
because
he was an executive in a textile mills
Yes.
in Ahmedabad.
Ahmedabad was full of textile mills
in those days.
So,
then they immediately
asked me: do you know how
to - how a cloth is made?
You know,
if you start from cotton,
how a cloth is made.
Yes.
Now it so happens that
I had - I have visited
my father’s textile mills.
You know, he was working
in a group of textile mills,
very big ones
where they had 7 textile mills.
And my dad was responsible
for the what is known as
spinning department.
You must be familiar with the
different departments in -
So, he was responsible for the spinning department
for 2 textile mills and
whenever we had guests
in our house from any place,
he would take them to this
textile mills to - just to show them
Yes.
what a textile mills looks like.
That’s right.
So, there was somebody
who had come to our family,
my - actually my uncle,
my mother’s younger brother
from Chennai.
So, he - he was taken -
asked - he - he wanted to see
the textile mills.
So, I went along with him.
So, my dad explained everything
and I was listening.
So, carefully we listened to everything
I understood everything because
it was
I mean, he - he explained very well,
clearly.
So, when I came for the interview,
they asked this question:
"How do you go from raw cotton
o cloth
and then the final product
which is sold in the - in a shop?"
So, I explained to them
all the steps,
they were actually very amazed
that I went into such level of detail
and I think that had to do with
the fact that I had visited
the textile mills
just about a month earlier or so
and maybe it is destiny
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] that helped.
Yes yes.
Yeah,
they were very impressed actually
that somebody like 16 year old
Yes.
could tell
that - that level of detail:
how you go from cotton,
raw cotton
you know, which you get from the fields
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] That’s right. [Mr. Ramachandra] and then you
have to clean it
and then you have to spin it
and you name it, you know,
until you get the cloth,
you bleach it and then you dye it.
Right.
… So,
I mean - I think that
that actually did the trick.
Because my marks were anyway
good you know,
I was I was a top ranker
in - in the college
along with the my cousin;
both of us were first and second
all the time, you know, so …
And the university
marks were also good,
I mean - apart from the fact in the
college marks we had good marks.
So, the - the marks were
not an issue because,
they I suppose in - in - in that
year they took from each university
students who were kind of top
students
because there was no other
common exam.
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] So, whether it is
Tamil Nadu or Calcutta
or wherever,
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] they had to get
students from the
good universities and
those who had the top marks
and
certainly I was one of them.
And then, that helped
plus the interview, yeah, so.
That’s how it happened.
Right,
and you
once you joined here,
Yeah.
it was before the inauguration
of the institute is what I understand
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] from the records [Mr. Ramachandra] Yeah,
[Mr. Ramachandra] yeah. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] because
the official inauguration
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] was on 31st July. [Mr. Ramachandra] Happened later -
[Mr. Ramachandra] happened. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] but you joined here for earlier
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] to … [Mr. Ramachandra] Yeah.
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] enter the hostel and classes.
Yeah, we went to Saidapet Hostel,
of course.
Yes, you were - were - you were in Saidapet Hostel.
Because
the first two years as you said,
Yes.
of the first batch, we were there.
Yes.
Yeah.
Do you have any recollections
of that hostel and that
days you spent there?
Well, me - most
the important recollections
I have is that we had to walk
a long distance to come here …
and then of course, that
it was a - it was a canteen
where we could make easily friends.
Yeah.
And people always try to interact
and find out who you are,
where are you coming from.
So, it was a very
cosy hostel.
So that rooms were close to each other
and people tended to
you know, after they come -
we had classes
we - excuse me -
we came home
or we came back to the hostel,
we had snacks
usually there were some snacks
and then, you know, you don’t
start studying immediately.
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] That’s right. [Mr. Ramachandra] Usually you take a
shower also,
but about 10, 15 minutes
or half an hour we chitchat with
[Mr. Ramachandra] with people on that corridor. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.
And the whole str -
layout of the hostel
that facilitated
this interaction.
I see.
Yeah and then of course,
there was also a table tennis …
table and - and - and - and
I don’t know,
maybe there was also carrom.
So, there were some places
where you could make friends.
So, it - it was actually a nice hostel
except of course,
there were 2 persons in each room.
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] Yeah,
which is not a bad thing
but we were …
later when we came to Cauvery hostel,
each one was given a separate room.
Separate room.
Yeah, yeah.
So, and -
yeah, I had a nice roommate,
he was from Madurai also
your town.
Oh, I see.
Yeah, yeah
[Mr. Ramachandra] yeah. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Not Mr. Amudachari.
Not Amudachari, but another person
called Venkata Pattabhi Raman.
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] I see. [Mr. Ramachandra] He was in metallurgy.
I see.
L. Venkata Pattabhi Raman.
Metallurgy student.
And he and - he knew Amudachari
before coming here.
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] They knew each other.
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] I see. [Mr. Ramachandra] Yeah,
yeah yeah.
So, Amudachari is also top student
from Madurai
when he came, yeah.
Right,
you mentioned that
you actually walked from Saidapet to
IIT.
Yeah.
Well, classes would have been in
the A.C. Tech College,
weren't they in the beginning?
Yeah, yeah.
So, that was
quite some time that you walked.
Yeah, yeah.
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] in the sun and the - [Mr. Ramachandra] Probably. I can’t even remember, it might have been
25-30 minutes.
Yes.
Yeah, yeah
and I think we had to cross
the Adyar river
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] somewhere - it’s a
small bridge - walking bridge
is also there.
Yeah, I haven’t been there recently,
incidentally,
but that’s what I think
there is one.
Is it true
that you also walked back for lunch
and then returned for classes -
is that how it worked?
I can’t remember
that part, I can’t remember.
Right.
But - I - what I do know is
there was more than 1 hour
of lunch break;
I think about 1 and half hours.
Yes.
If I don’t remember,
if I - if I am recollect correct,
certainly after coming to
Cauvery hostel,
Yes.
it was - the classes were from
7:30 to 11:30 or
11:45, and afterwards
it would start at 1:15
or 1:30
to 4:30.
Yes.
Therefore, there was more than
1 hour gap
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] for the lunch
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] and maybe we did go
because otherwise
we would not have had lunch.
Eh, your -
[Mr. Ramachandra] I mean we did not. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.
Oh, yeah it must have
happened that way
now that you are -
because we were not given any
lunch boxes or anything.
Yes.
So, we had to go back
you know, yeah.
Because there was no lunch boxes
packed or anything like that.
Right.
Who were your instructors then
and what classes did you have
in the first year and - and
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] the second year? [Mr. Ramachandra] First year we had maths.
Yes.
I think we had physics,
there was a Workshop
you know fitting.
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes, yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] And, I didn’t
like it at all, incidentally.
Most people didn’t,
if you're not a mechanic,
if you didn’t want to take
mechanical engineering.
Yes.
I always already, then
I thought it was a waste of my time
Yes, yes.
because I used to also get blisters.
That’s right.
See, my hand is very soft even today
and at that time, even softer.
So, whenever you do that.
Yes.
I was a very
lean person.
You know, I
I didn’t have the strength
to do those things.
Yes.
And there is no allowance made
for a weak student or a
good - strong student.
Right.
You have to do it
Everyone does it.
Everybody has to.
That’s right
And I was not - actually
I was unfit for that
kind of a thing,
to be very honest,
yeah. So, there was this
fitting workshop
and then there was - I think
I think -
there was a drafting class.
I don’t know if it is in the first year
or second year
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] but certainly
it was in one of the 2 years.
Drafting, fitting,
I think English also was there,
if I'm not mistaken.
Yes.
Maths was there,
physics was there.
Yes.
I think chemistry also.
There were no
engineering courses;
it had not yet started.
Right.
Yeah, that started from the
second year - to -
to the best of my
recollection,
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Right. [Mr. Ramachandra] memory,
I - I think no engineering courses
were offered at that time,
yet.
Did - did you have practical sessions
in laboratories
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] in chemistry and physics? [Mr. Ramachandra] I think in physics and -
physics and chemistry we did.
Yes.
Yeah, yeah.
Those were labs also in
A.C. College of technology.
Yeah,
I remember that yeah,
they were - I am sure they were.
That's because - because
we had physics and chemistry,
I am kind of inferring
[Mr. Ramachandra] I'm - [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.
But - and I also know that
I was - I now remember
where - which lab
I was standing and all that.
But, I - I'm not 100 percent sure
whether it was first year or second year,
but I think it was in the first year.
And your classmates
you … who were they and
who were your closest friends?
Well, even now it is
the same friends,
which I had now
were also my closest friends then.
Yes.
So, Koteeswaran
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] is one of them,
then Mahadevan,
Srinivasan,
Amudacharya, I knew a little bit,
but at that time he was not
one of my closest friends.
There is another person called
P. K. Prabhakaran.
Have you done an interview with him?
[Mr. Ramachandra] No? [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] No.
He is a - he is also in Civil engineering.
He was a Civil engineer
but he was later in Cauvery hostel
on - on my same corridor,
some 3 rooms further away.
So, he became a
good friend of mine.
Yes.
But the closest were
Koteeswaran,
Mahadevan,
Srinivasan, another person called
Mohan.
I think he's now in France.
There was another person
no, at that - not in the first year -
in the first year, I was not
very close to another person called
Eswaran.
He - he - he is also an
Electrical engineering student
but in the first year
I didn’t know him so well.
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] Because
when we joined
Electrical engineering together
in the third year,
since then - from that time
onwards he was also a close friend.
First year like
I'm just trying to think
who was, who else was there,
these were very close:
Mohan, Koteeswaran,
Srinivasan, Mahadevan
yeah, of course,
Pattabhiraman,
who was my roommate.
Your roommate.
Roommate.
I can’t remember now, this.
Another point is
I was
I was a little bit of an introvert,
I was a shy person.
I was not like you know
some people are, you know,
bursting with, you know, energy
and they will start talking
and interacting,
that I do now, today.
Today I interact with
A child of 5 - 200.
But, in those days I was
I was an introvert.
So, I didn’t have that many friends
in the first year.
Yes.
There might have been another
couple of - or 2 or 3,
but now
I can’t remember the names.
But these were definitely closest
what I mentioned here.
Yes,
and so, this went on for 2 years
this system of classes
[Mr. Ramachandra] Yeah. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] in A.C. Tech
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Workshop, nearby. [Mr. Ramachandra] Yeah,
yeah.
Now, do you have
recollections of
Professor Sengupto
from those days?
Yeah.
The Director.
We didn’t have too many interactions
that was my regret, actually.
He did not have too many interactions
with the students like
every 3 months or any such thing,
what we do now is …
he - he came with a reputation
that he is a very systematic person
and he is a good administrator.
Yes.
And … he is also very strict
coming from the, you know,
services, army, I think,
I don’t know
whether there was an army or air force,
but he is from the services.
Actually, we have very little information about his -
Is that so?
Yes.
[Mr. Ramachandra] Ok. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] His career before he
But, he is -
joined the VJTI at Bombay.
But he was from the services,
he has worked in the services.
He - he made speeches which were
to the point, you know,
but … I - if I may be honest,
the speeches which inspired all of us
was that of Natarajan.
Natarajan, the registrar.
I mean, he was just too good.
So, this - their speeches
which always stayed with us
Yes.
were those of R. Natarajan.
And Mr. Sengupto
he was all to the point,
business-like, whatever
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] needed to be said,
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] he would say it
whereas
Natarajan would digress a little bit,
make a story.
Yes.
And it'll be a humorous one.
Yeah.
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] So, it was always great
to listen to him.
Right.
Yeah, and his command of the English language
I have -
I have met few people like him
in my life
who can speak so well.
Yeah, yeah
Mr. - Mr. Natarajan was the registrar.
Yeah.
So, which is really an administrative
post.
Yeah.
But still he knew number of students
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] and [Mr. Ramachandra] Yeah.
met with them.
So, what did he
how did this happen, how -
did he come out to your hostel
to talk with you or -
Actually, it didn’t happen
too much with me.
Yes.
I don’t know with - with
how many students he talked -maybe
the ones who were, you know,
I was in the kind of third or
in my - in the first two years,
I was not one of the better students
let’s say,
I was a average to above slightly;
from third, I started doing very well because,
I final - I - I finished with the first class.
So, from third year onwards
I started doing much better because,
there is a more focus
on my own field of studies.
I don’t know whether he spoke
with many students -
maybe he might have
or maybe also that,
he did it at a time when
I - I was gone
either I was playing
somewhere.
So, I have seen him maybe
1 or 2 times in the hostel,
but he never had a chat with me -
let’s put it that way.
So …
maybe he has had a chat
with people like Koteeswaran or
Srinivasan,
it might have been.
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes, yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] Yeah, yeah.
You - you had a - a - a warden
for your hostel.
Yes, yes.
Do you know …
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] what? [Mr. Ramachandra] think
for Cauvery it was.
Yeah.
At least the first year,
Yes.
the Head of the Department of
Chemical - Chemical Engineering.
Venkateswarlu.
Yes.
D. Venkateswarlu.
Professor Venkateswarlu,
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] Professor Venkateswarlu.
Yes.
Am I correct?
Yes,
because, in my yes
he was a warden for the first year
of the Cauvery hostel.
Whether he was for all the years
that I studied, I can’t remember,
but certainly first year
maybe even - maybe in 2 years.
Because we finished 2 years in
in Saidapet.
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Saidapet, yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] And, then we
came here.
Yes.
So, in the - in my third year of study,
he was the warden.
Yeah.
And whether he was also
in the fourth year of study,
I don’t remember.
What was
the academic pressure like -
what - how many exams
did you have to write and … ?
I think there were about -
we didn’t have a semester system,
I think you must be knowing that.
Yes, for
for you it was the
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] annual year system. [Mr. Ramachandra] Full year
[Mr. Ramachandra] annual year. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.
And from beginning.
So, like, say from like July till
the next May or June
when the year ended,
probably, we had 2 or 3 in between
and then a final exam
and …
There - there was a
system of surprise periodicals
at some point.
Yeah, yeah sometimes
but there were not
too many of those.
There were some
and not in all subjects;
in some subjects.
What I remember about exams is
because there were 2 or 3 tests
in between,
so, the material was not for
the whole year,
[Mr. Ramachandra] but it was lesson, you know, [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yeah.
just like in the semester system also
yeah,
you have only half the material
Yes.
if you take a full course
for 2 semester.
So, I - I didn’t find the material
as a - as such too much or anythingm
but you find sometimes a topic
which you don’t understand so well.
So, I can’t remember
specifically
that there was a excessive pressure
because of the material,
but sometimes a
a certain topic in a subject
was difficult
and that required
additional study or consultation
with either another
peer
another student or
you have to go to the
professor
or lecture and then,
you know, have a separate
discussion on that.
Yes.
But I -
I don’t particularly remember
that I had a problem with
the amount - volume of study
that had to be done.
Anyway,
I used to wake up very early,
I should wake up at 4 o’ clock or
so 4, 4:30
Yes.
to study for
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] I see. [Mr. Ramachandra] exams yeah.
I see.
And then 1 week or 2 weeks
in advance,
I would start
waking up early
so that - it - some extra hours
were made available,
yeah, yeah.
But I was - compared to
some other students
in one of my -
one of the students
in my corridor made a
joke actually,
when I came -
when we came
for the golden jubilee celebration.
Yes.
I didn’t know
tha - that I was doing it
but he noticed it
that I was one of those
who slept very early
by 10, 10:30
my - there were no lights
in my room.
But he also knew that
I was an early riser by 4, 4:30
whereas the other students
woke up a bit late
and studied till midnight.
Yes.
And,
yeah it's a question of
choice what you do,
I was trained at home
you know
in - by my parents to wake up early.
Yes.
Because that’s when the
brain is fresh
after some rest, so.
Yes.
But, there are others
who were night -
they like to study
more at night,
they - it's - it's very
person-dependent.
That’s right.
And that man who made a joke
that student -
"Oh, Ramachandran
you are the great guy
who slept at 10 o’ clock.
I said what is so great about -
I should wake up early,
Yes.
I compensated.
That’s right.
Yeah,
when I was in the golden jubilee
[Mr. Ramachandra] I was - [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yeah.
He was - he was always a
humorous person.
[inaudible] 2, 3 rooms away
[Mr. Ramachandra] yeah. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes,
going on a different tack,
[Mr. Ramachandra] Yeah. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] what was the
kind of fees
that students had to pay
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] in those days? [Mr. Ramachandra] 300
300 for -
Per year.
Very -
Yes.
Peanuts
for the kind of study
we get - it -
That’s it. Yeah.
300 in all.
That’s it, yeah.
Right.
Yeah.
Did you have to
have hostel fees to be paid
or
do you know
how much that was
above this?
Tuition was 300 rupees.
Yes.
Whether the 300 became more
in the fifth year,
I can’t remember.
Yes.
It might have slightly increased,
but nothing dramatic.
It was really very very economical.
That’s right.
And …
hostel
what I remember is
my dad is to send
the first 1 or 2 years
50 rupees a month.
Yes.
And, later
I was getting 75 rupees per month
and I can’t remember that
I paid anything for the hostel.
Those were - that
money was meant for
you know mess,
canteen
and little bit of pocket money
to go to movie or going out
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] and
take eat in a restaurant or something.
Yeah.
But I can’t remember that
there was any hostel fees.
Maybe, maybe
you know, also.
Well, it subsequently
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] be - in my - in my period in the '80s, [Mr. Ramachandra] Yeah.
we did have a separate
[Mr. Ramachandra] Yeah. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] hostel bill.
Ok.
and that was based on a
a daily rate.
Ok.
For per day would be …
I - I -
5 rupees or so.
In my time by the '80s,
it was 12 rupees or so.
Sorry,
you know, you're right
it was about 8 rupees.
But I - I - I begin to
I don’t believe
I paid any hostel fees.
You know.
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] And, it's [Mr. Ramachandra] But maybe
some of my classmates will
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] confirm
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] whether
I am right or wrong.
Yes,
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] yeah. [Mr. Ramachandra] In so far as I remember,
I have not paid any hostel fees.
I see.
Ok.
You know, at - the - the whole thing
was very very economical, studies
yeah.
I think it's all
Government Of India money.
That’s true,
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] Taxpayers' money.
Yes.
Yeah, yeah.
So,
do you have recollections of the
the inaugural - inauguration
of the institute
the 31st July,
when it was formally
started?
Regretfully, no.
I can’t remember, no,
I don't have, you know, the slightest idea
what happened at that time.
[Mr. Ramachandra] It’s more than 55 years ago. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.
That’s right.
You know, you know, some people might have remembered
but I didn’t.
I don’t even remember who did it actually,
Lal Bahadur Shastri had come?
Humayun Kabir.
I'm sorry?
Humayun Kabir.
Humayun Kabir okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, Humayun Kabir.
Yes, yeah.
Yesterday, I had seen it in the photos.
Yes.
Now, maybe I remember Humayun Kabir,
but I can’t remember anything of that event.
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Apparently, a foundation stone was laid. [Mr. Ramachandra] Yeah.
We have that stone now at the Heritage Centre.
[Mr. Ramachandra] Ok. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] On - on display here.
Now, once you mentioned Humayun Kabir,
I - I - I kind of remember that something like that
I have attended
but what I can’t remember is what exactly happened.
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] You know the the rest of the proceedings
I don’t remember.
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] So, then in 1961, according to our records,
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] the first buildings on campus were opened [Mr. Ramachandra] Right.
for - you know, for teaching or for staying in.
[Mr. Ramachandra] Yeah. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] So, you went to Cauvery Hostel.
Cauvery hostel.
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] Yeah.
And that of course,
made moving to classes
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] and back much easier. [Mr. Ramachandra] Very easy - much easier.
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] Very comfortable.
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] Yeah, yeah.
So, according to what we know, the first classes
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] were all held in the Building Sciences Block. [Mr. Ramachandra] Yes,
[Mr. Ramachandra] correct. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] What is today the
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] BSB. [Mr. Ramachandra] Civil engineering.
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes, the [Mr. Ramachandra] Yeah.
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Civil Engineering Department. [Mr. Ramachandra] Yeah, yeah, yeah,
that’s true.
But very soon thereafter
electrical engineering department was also ready
whether it is 3 months, 6 months or 1 year I don’t know.
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] But I don’t believe it's more than a year.
[Mr. Ramachandra] Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] Within a year or so, electrical engineering department -
that’s where my classes were -
that came up, yeah.
Were there any signs of plenty of construction going on
because everything was trying to be built
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] in a short period. [Mr. Ramachandra] Yeah … Yeah, yeah.
D'you have - do you remember that?
The - the impression I carried then and even now
is it could have been faster,
let’s put it that way.
I - I had that impression
and I don’t know what the - what the constraints were,
what the limitations were,
but the - the impression I did
get is that it could have been faster.
But I am sure there were reasons
you know, there were some constraints and
I am not familiar with them.
I - I recollect seeing there was a
shortage of cement possibly or
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] is it steel?. [Mr. Ramachandra] Could have been. Yeah, yeah. In those days, that is.
At some point yes.
[Mr. Ramachandra] In those days, oh yeah, [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.
now that you mention, everything was in shortage.
And, cement was allocated literally
[Mr. Ramachandra] you know, [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] I see.
yeah, by the government you know
and that might have been a reason.
Yeah and I might have remembered
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] I might have known that at that time [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.
but now I have forgotten.
But … I still felt how long is it going to take, you know.
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] Yeah, like that yeah.
But as I said, you know, the reason it
tooks some more time
there must have been good reasons for it.
We just as students didn’t know them, all of them
Yes, that’s right.
Well, we have … we see what it was to be
a student from writings that your colleagues have,
your batch mates have written in the Annual Number
which you see in front of you and
[Mr. Ramachandra] Yeah. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Campastimes and so on.
So, we understand that there was a
strong emphasis on extracurricular activities …
Yeah, I mean.
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] from day 1. [Mr. Ramachandra] There were facilities provided.
From day 1. Yeah
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yeah. [Mr. Ramachandra] There were good facilities provided.
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] I mean like you know table tennis
[Mr. Ramachandra] and then tennikoit. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.
Tennikoit is something very unique to
Tamil Nadu actually.
[Mr. Ramachandra] I never played it, I came from Gujarat. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.
And, then ball badminton,
ball badminton is also very unique to Tamil Nadu.
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] I see. [Mr. Ramachandra] I have never played it before
and even here I didn’t play after coming
because that ball is coming at such a high speed;
you have to have a - you know, you should play it for
a long time before you get the hang of it
but I was playing shuttle.
Shuttlecock I could play,
I could play table tennis, I even played cricket.
I played carrom.
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] I think chess if I am not mistaken,
what are … now I - we were actually quite busy with games.
So, after we came, it -
there was more opportunities for relaxation.
So, I mean if you don’t like
[Mr. Ramachandra] let’s say badminton but you like tennikoit. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes
There they were called courts for tennikoit
and I - I - I think there were later even courts for tennis,
but when they came, I don’t remember.
I was never, I never played tennis,
but cricket ground was there
and we played cricket, Koti used to play
[Mr. Ramachandra] everywhere. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Were these located around the Cauvery hostel?
Not too far away; no, not Cauvery hostel
but not too far away from where we are staying,
[Mr. Ramachandra] exactly where I forgot now. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.
In fact, I - very many evenings
[Mr. Ramachandra] I played tennikoit with Srinivasan, [Mr. Ramachandra] Yes.
with Mahadevan, that’s also way of making friends.
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] That’s right. [Mr. Ramachandra] Oh, there is another person called B. Gopalakrishnan.
He is from Civil Engineering,
he was a very close friend of mine.
Yeah.
Even he might have become friend even in the first year.
Very nice person, very decent gentleman
even in those days also.
One of the most decent persons I met, yeah.
There - there was more competitive sports as well
in the sense that there were inter IIT sports
coming up. [Mr. Ramachandra] Right, right.
So, did you represent the institute?
I was not good in any any of them to be able to do that,
[Mr. Ramachandra] you know, like table tennis I played for fun. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.
But the real good ones were others
[Mr. Ramachandra] like Srinivas Nageswar. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.
And - and also S. Gopalakrishnan.
[Mr. Ramachandra] They were good in table tennis. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] yes.
In cricket I was
I have played a match: inter-class match.
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] I think my class against another class.
[Mr. Ramachandra] Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] But, nothing against an another IIT.
Because, you know, for to play against another IIT
you have to choose everybody who is already
[Mr. Ramachandra] available in the all the classes of IIT. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.
[Mr. Ramachandra] Not just my class [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.
[Mr. Ramachandra] but all the years. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] That’s right.
And then you get maybe about 5 - 600 students
or more
and they are much better players you know.
Then there was a sportsman by name Dominic.
[Mr. Ramachandra] Yeah, he was very good. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Jacob Dominic.
[Mr. Ramachandra] He was very good at hockey. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes, right.
I think he was good in hockey and also in
ball badminton, he was an amazing player.
Ball badminton.
[Mr. Ramachandra] He is right now in the US, yeah. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Ok.
Also, again a very nice person, you know.
We - we understand he was a
an all rounder as sportsman.
[Mr. Ramachandra] Yeah, yeah he - [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] I think.
[Mr. Ramachandra] ball badminton, what else he played,
[Mr. Ramachandra] maybe the normal badminton also. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.
But I can’t remember if he played cricket,
[Mr. Ramachandra] that I don’t know hockey, yes he played. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Hockey.
[Mr. Ramachandra] I think so, yeah. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes, right.
There was a hockey team.
There was another person called Chandy, Chandy.
[Mr. Ramachandra] But, he is a one class, one batch lower. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.
He was very good in hockey.
Yeah, hockey.
And IIT Madras of course, was
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] started with German assistance. [Mr. Ramachandra] Yeah.
So, we know that there were
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] German technicians and professors. [Mr. Ramachandra] Professors yeah.
here … on campus.
So, do you have recollections of their
classes or interacting with them?
Well of course, nobody forgets Dr. Koch.
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] K-o-c-h.
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] Koch.
Now, I have to be - if I will be very frank and honest about it,
I had difficulty in following every German professor.
And the reason was
it may sound as if I'm blaming somebody else
but they they were not be - able to express
that - their thoughts -
in English in a proper way.
And … because I had - I did very well in nearly
all courses taught by Indian professors.
but I had difficulty in following the German professors.
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Right. [Mr. Ramachandra] I was - I had difficulty also to take notes.
And they did not have a - a specific textbook
which they say ok,
this is what you will find in that textbook
go and take it.
So, they would sometimes give a handout
you know, and even those handouts should be also crisp
and sort of paraphrasing or summarizing,
not explaining in detail.
So, I was one of those - maybe there were more students like me
but I certainly had problem with any subject
where I cannot have a proper textbook.
and where you have to learn only from the professor
and if he himself doesn’t explain very well,
and you cannot take very good notes -
I was not able to take good notes also.
So, in that - in that area, Srinivasan, Mahadevan - they helped me.
You know, for - I would go to them and
[Mr. Ramachandra] and take the notes from them - [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.
they helped me.
Without those - that help, I would have had great difficulty.
But the - the difficulty I had was also that
there were no textbooks which were say, ok,
now you go and read this material in that particular textbook.
So, I had … I was kind of and I - I - I think in
one of those courses offered by them, I got an A or
… I'm not sure if I got an S,
I might have got an A,
but in the others, I got a B, I think mainly
and from third year onwards,
I got almost all subjects A and S.
[Mr. Ramachandra] But these were these professors were mainly. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] The S being the top grade.
[Mr. Ramachandra] S being the top grade yeah. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.
S was super or
something like that
and … now I don’t know what it is
the system is different, is it, today?
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] System is changed. [Mr. Ramachandra] Yeah.
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes, little, yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] A there was.
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] A, B there was A, S, A, B, C.
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yeah. [Mr. Ramachandra] S was the highest,
but from third year onwards, I think
I got almost no Bs or very few.
But, in the first two years I had a couple
and that were also in - in the courses
offered by the German professors,
certainly in those I think, maybe
in one I got - might have got anybody,
I am not - I don’t remember; so, a long time.
So, another thing is there is another aspect to it.
We were all children actually,
I mean we are - 17 year old is not really an adult.
When I joined, I was 16 years or 6 months or something.
So, what happens is boys or girls of that
age some of them are already mature
[Mr. Ramachandra] to the point where they can they come here to study. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.
They know their duty as a student
and the - and the promise they made to their parents,
that they will do their best and they are able to keep it
and they were able to focus no matter
how a professor presents the material.
There are others who are little bit more childlike.
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] Do you understand what I mean?
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] Little bit more like children.
You mean they need guidance,
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] more guidance? [Mr. Ramachandra] No, they their mind starts wandering.
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Ah, yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] Because.
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] The material is at the - at not being explained
in the manner that they can appreciate
and then the mind starts wandering
and they are not able to control it,
they're not able to focus on what’s going on -
I was one of them.
Because, my mind would start wandering
if the material presented was not clear
and not in a manner that I would have liked.
It did not hold your attention.
[Mr. Ramachandra] It did not hold my attention. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.
So, that was my problem.
So, it could have been …
and the combination of both -
the way the material was -
I was not mature maybe, at that age.
Because, if I look at my career later
you know, I think if I look back,
I might have understood it better
if I'd focused on it more, if I'd concentrated,
but I was unable to do it, yeah.
So, but I am nothing
I mean I - I got through those - that period,
but those were the subjects which
[Mr. Ramachandra] presented the maximum challenges for me. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.
Not those taught by Indian professors,
they were all for me straightforward.
Were you involved in the NCC activities
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] in - on campus? [Mr. Ramachandra] No, no, I was not.
And, the campus itself was of course,
a different kind of campus because
[Mr. Ramachandra] It was still big. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] so much of it was forest and
[Mr. Ramachandra] Yeah. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] it had not been built upon.
[Mr. Ramachandra] Yeah. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] So, what do you recollect of that campus?
Exactly what you said: lot of forest,
[Mr. Ramachandra] hardly any buildings. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] And we had to walk a long distance to the main gate [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.
to catch a bus or a or a taxi or whatever.
So, but all those things it never bothered us
you know, at that age
[Mr. Ramachandra] we sort of took it all in our stride. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.
That we said: :Okay,
we've to walk for 40 minutes or 30 minutes,
what is there?" like that. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Right.
And, most of the thing is - of course,
we saw lot of deer even those days,
you know, spotted deer and all of that
and sometimes of course, we would feel: oh
if the tranfortation was bit better,
like you know, more buses came or things like that.
[Mr. Ramachandra] Buses started coming actually. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yeah.
But … because for the weekend
we would always stay inside,
the (campus); I never went out of the campus
in - except on weekends
[Mr. Ramachandra] and also not all weekends [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.
[Mr. Ramachandra] because I have a lot of relatives in Chennai. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.
So, I used to go maybe once in 2 weekends
[Mr. Ramachandra] or so, to stay with them. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.
On Friday night or so, I would go,
but some people went every weekend
[Mr. Ramachandra] because like Koteeswaran, his family is here. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.
You know he is from Chennai.
So, his parents are also here.
So, he went every weekend
whereas, in my case uncle, aunt, like that.
So, I didn’t go every weekend.
So, you know the main thing about the campus was
it was very nice in terms of greenery,
very quiet,
the roads were kind of still kutcha roads,
not all roads were still, you know, paved the way they are.
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] They are - they are now fantastic here.
Everything is kept very well now, so.
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] Quality of maintenance is tip-top
right now, yeah.
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Were there actually just tracks there, mud tracks, [Mr. Ramachandra] Yeah.
[Mr. Ramachandra] in those days? [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] I mean, mud tracks;
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] basically, majority … at least
half of them were mud tracks
[Mr. Ramachandra] and so, when there was rain, [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yeah.
it was slushy, it was kind of, yeah.
Your trousers would get dirty
[Mr. Ramachandra] and things like that. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes, that’s right.
Yeah, but at - in that age
[Mr. Ramachandra] we don’t bother about those things. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] That’s right.
Sometimes you will get annoyed but mostly not.
And, during the monsoons, it can rain quite heavily.
[Mr. Ramachandra] Yeah, yeah, yeah. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes, yes.
[Mr. Ramachandra] Sure yeah. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] That’s right.
But yeah, I mean, we - we still loved to be here
let’s put it that way,
[Mr. Ramachandra] we enjoyed being here. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] That’s right, yes.
Was the city also remote in that sense
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] in those days, because it has grown a lot now. [Mr. Ramachandra] Yeah.
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] So, to reach - [Mr. Ramachandra] It was a -
go from here to where your relatives were,
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Well,- [Mr. Ramachandra] did it take time?
I would - I would - I had - until the - I know the buses came
when I was staying in the hostel -
whether it was the fourth or fifth year I can’t remember -
but at least for 1 or 2 - 1 year minimum, maybe one and half,
2 years I should walk to the gate
and from there, I would take either an auto or a … or a taxi;
[Mr. Ramachandra] those days Madras taxis were also there, I mean, [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.
I'm not talking about Uber or Ola,
but the normal taxis,
[Mr. Ramachandra] like in Bombay there are there yellow-top taxis. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.
So, here also we had those kind of taxis,
but they were mostly Ambassadors here.
And while coming back also I had come home,
I had come right up to the hostel by taking a taxi.
So, I mean, the - the accessibility was bit of a problem,
but you have to plan it that’s all, I mean, that means
if you want to reach somewhere, you've to plan minimum 1 hour
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] or 1 hour, 20 minutes.
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] That’s right. [Mr. Ramachandra] That’s - I mean -
so, apart from that I mean it’s just a 30 minutes walk,
[Mr. Ramachandra] I mean, in that age, you know, walk - [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.
[Mr. Ramachandra] nobody bothers about [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.
30 minutes walk, yeah.
And of course, telephones were -
[Mr. Ramachandra] Not there. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] far fewer, practically not there.
No, no, not there.
They were not there.
There was actually in the - in the warden’s -
[Mr. Ramachandra] there was a warden’s office [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.
in the ground floor of Cauvery.
There was a telephone there,
[Mr. Ramachandra] so … I hardly meet made use of it. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yeah.
Some people, maybe you know, made use of it to call their parents
or if they were not going to come or they were delayed -
I never made use of it
[Mr. Ramachandra] but I know there was a telephone there. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Right.
[Mr. Ramachandra] Assistant warden’s office, I think that was. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.
There were also person who was there kind of 24 hours,
a caretaker or whatever; of course, Venkateswarlu -
Dr. Venkateswarlu was not there all the time,
but there was somebody else.
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yeah. [Mr. Ramachandra] Yes … in 1962,
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] apparently the Open Air Theatre was inaugurated. [Mr. Ramachandra] Yes, yes.
And, the first use it was made of was to receive the
the German president, President Lübke.
Yeah, yeah.
And was that an - an incident that you remember?
Very vaguely, very vaguely.
I can’t give too many details of that,
but what you say, yeah, that part I remember,
[Mr. Ramachandra] but not much more, [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.
[Mr. Ramachandra] no, no. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yeah.
What I do remember about the Open Air
[Mr. Ramachandra] Theatre is we used to go there for movies. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes, yes.
[Mr. Ramachandra] They were screened [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.
I think, once a week or something like that.
So, we used to go there for that.
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Right. [Mr. Ramachandra] But since I was not a very good sportsman,
[Mr. Ramachandra] so, I haven’t played there inside the stadium or anything - [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.
any game or something like that.
And once you came to your departmental courses,
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] was it in the Electrical Sciences Building that you had [Mr. Ramachandra] Yeah.
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] your classes, all your classes? [Mr. Ramachandra] Yeah,
all of them in the Electrical, yeah,
[Mr. Ramachandra] I mean, the electrical engineering courses were there [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.
but even then, at that time we had some maths course I think
and then we had to go to some other building
but all the electrical engineering courses
were in that building only.
[Mr. Ramachandra] Yes. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] So, were the German test equipment and so on
[Mr. Ramachandra] Those were all fine. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] installed right
there in the beginning? Yeah.
I mean, they came in, you know, in - in - in a certain speed.
Whether they were all available
when we needed them, I can’t remember
but they were coming at - at regular intervals,
the equipment.
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] I remember, there is a … High Voltage Lab [Mr. Ramachandra] Yes.
in which there you could have a electrical discharge by
[Mr. Ramachandra] Yes, yes. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] just raising the voltage.
[Mr. Ramachandra] Yeah, yeah. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Was that an early piece of equipment,
was it there in your time?
I think it was,
because there was a course on that
I mean, related to high voltage,
but 100 percent I am not sure.
[Mr. Ramachandra] Yeah, most probably it was but [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Right.
I can’t remember.
Who - who were your teachers from your department,
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] can you name some of them? [Mr. Ramachandra] Professor Sampath.
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] He - as a matter of fact, I took
I was in Heavy Current
where, you know, these transformers, high voltage
[Mr. Ramachandra] and then this electric distribution - transmission - [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yeah.
distribution transformers, motors, electrical generation
all of that was taught,
I will - unfortunately I made the wrong choice;
I should have taken electronics
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] that is what - it used to be called LC - [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] LC.
but Professor Sampath taught a course
in third year on electronics
and that inspired me to move, get out of my
whatever field I was in
[Mr. Ramachandra] to the field that I wanted to go [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.
[Mr. Ramachandra] because his presentation was superb. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.
And the same of V. G. K. Murti,
[Mr. Ramachandra] Professor V. G. K. Murti. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.
P. Venkat Rao, very - I mean
P. Venkat Rao tended to be very fast.
You have to be you can’t even -
you can’t let your eye even blink.
I see.
The speed at which he was talking
was amazing
but still it was presented in a manner that, no problem,
I mean it was enjoyable to
[Mr. Ramachandra] learn from him. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.
V. G. K. Murti was top class,
Sampath also.
And, then Professor Sampath and then, of course,
there was Mr. Ramaswamy.
[Mr. Ramachandra] He was also - [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] B. Ramaswamy.
[Mr. Ramachandra] B. Ramaswamy. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.
He was a good lec - he was - at that time was a lecturer
and then he became assistant professor,
I - I believe he even became a head of the department
at some point
but his presentation of the material was very good
but it was not like - he was not an inspiring teacher -
but he was good, he would give the technical details nicely,
whereas, Sampath - Mr. Sampath - Professor Sampath
and V. G. K. Murti and P. Venkata Rao,
they are inspiring speakers.
[Mr. Ramachandra] I think they had that skill [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.
which not everybody has.
[Mr. Ramachandra] They were gifted. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Right.
Yeah, yeah, and therefore, everybody enjoyed then,
there is not a single person who will have a different opinion
you know, on these
on these professors, across the board, you know.
Yes, yes.
I didn’t have of course, courses of Professor Achuthan
because that was in LC -
electronics -so, I can’t say anything about it
but these three I loved them actually, yeah, yeah.
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] So ... [Mr. Ramachandra] It’s a pity I didn’t keep in
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yeah. [Mr. Ramachandra] touch with them, yeah.
So, you ... did you receive your degree here - to -
[Mr. Ramachandra] Yeah, yeah. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] did you come here to collect
[Mr. Ramachandra] I came. I came to - [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] to collect your degree?
Yeah, yeah, I came - came -
because when, you know, it was said that
[Mr. Ramachandra] Dr. Radhakrishnan is going to come [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.
So, I said that is a lifetime - once-in-a-lifetime opportunity.
So, I did come, yeah -
only I came, my parents didn’t come.
[Mr. Ramachandra] I think in some cases some - the parents also came. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.
[Mr. Ramachandra] But in my case, only [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Right.
I came, yeah, yeah.
So, what happened after IIT, what did you do ? What -
Well, actually I had no plans to go abroad or anything.
I just took a job in with Siemens in - actually there
there was a job, a very short job I took before
I joined Siemens in a company
which makes transformers in Bombay
but it - it was having a factory in the place
where there's a lot of flooding at the time of rains.
I worked in that company for 2 weeks
[Mr. Ramachandra] and then I got an interview call from Siemens [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.
and I was selected by Siemens,
so, I quit after 2 weeks.
So, my first job is actually of 2 weeks
and the next one at Siemens a bit more than 1 year,
the idea was - I was - I was [inaudible] between
marketing people and the factory.
So, I had to deal with customers:
their questions related to the factory.
So, I had worked for 1 year in that Siemens company,
[Mr. Ramachandra] you know that is a German company, [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.
you know, but I was not happy
because that - it did not require any of my
technical knowledge to be applied.
I did talk to my boss after 3 months or 6 months
that I would like to go into - into another department,
where they do some design work
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] where there's more engineering -
my engineering knowledge can be applied
and - he said yeah we will do it.
But you know, somewhere at that around that time
my brother and I - my brother was very keen to go abroad
so, he also stimulated me to the U.S. - to go to U.S.
and study there.
So, I started applying for the - for going to the U.S.
and so, see I - I started working maybe
in the beginning of '64 March, April, May -
I can’t remember anymore -
but then, by the end of - by October, November '64,
I was already busy applying for - you know, to go abroad
to - only to the U.S.,
[Mr. Ramachandra] I did not apply to any other country [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] like UK or so. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.
And ... and that, the reason was also because
most of my professors in Electrical Engineering Department
they were all from the U.S.,
[Mr. Ramachandra] Professor Sampath had studied in Stanford. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.
V. G. K. Murti in University of Illinois,
so ... and ... I felt - I also felt that
that might suit my, you know, character,
[Mr. Ramachandra] the - that type of courses offered there. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.
UK ... also, UK takes longer to get a masters,
U.S. is - you know, you can do it in 1 year
or 1 year and 3, 4 months like that,
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] UK usually 2 years.
So, so I applied in the - at the end of 2000 -
beginning of '65 or maybe around by April,
May, I had applied to several universities,
3 of them and I got admission in 2.
one of them I think they didn’t give me because
there was the - at that time
they were asking us to take a GRE test.
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] G - and also English language test.
And somehow, I was - I may be the
only student who did that,
I - I wrote to them that I feel that I - I'm
from a very good institution, premier institution,
IIT Madras and I explained to them
[Mr. Ramachandra] because Americans might not know [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.
[Mr. Ramachandra] what IIT is. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.
And, in those days '65,
I explained to them how, you know, this is a Government Of India
initiative with the German government blah blah blah.
So, my explanation of the IIT was probably 1 full page
and then I also said: look I have a -
these are the my grades and I feel that
there is no reason for me to be tested again with the GRE.
So, I think the University of Illinois,
they didn’t accept my argument
but Berkeley accepted it.
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yeah, yes. Alright. [Mr. Ramachandra] University of California, Berkeley.
So, I didn’t do any GRE
and similarly the English language test
that was compulsory.
Now, there also what I did is I got-
see I have studied everything in English
even from my KG in - in Christian school
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] in Ahmedabad.
And then a 1 year of college pre-university
in - in Ahmedabad that was also, everything in English,
then IIT was in English.
So, what I did is I wrote to my
principal of the school and the principal of the Saint Xavier's
College where I did my PUC
asking them for a testimonial,
a certificate saying that I can understand English,
I can speak English and I am very - I'm fluent in English
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] and that I can follow a course in the U.S.
without any difficulty.
I - I send a request also to
the head of the Department of Humanities here, IIT.
[Mr. Ramachandra] There was a Krishnamurthy I think, one Mr. Krishnamurthy. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.
[Mr. Ramachandra] Am I correct? [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.
Krishnamurthy, he was also very good in English,
I think it was Professor Mr. Krishnamurthy in my time.
I - I remember the name but -
[Mr. Ramachandra] You know, head of the department. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. Yes. I do not know if it was ...
I - I requested him saying, I even
actually, told him what he has to write.
I said: please mention these things
in the testimonial that I have
studied everything in IIT in English
and my fluency is good enough
to take - to follow any course in any
in any American university.
He gave me a nice testimonial
and from Ahmedabad I got out of two places
that I requested, I got one
the other one I don’t know they didn’t reply, respond.
I - I sent those two to Berkeley
to all the three universities which I applied,
Berkeley accepted it.
So, I didn’t take any an English language
[Mr. Ramachandra] test which everybody else did. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.
[Mr. Ramachandra] I didn’t. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yeah. Take the GRE also.
So, that was a very - it - it was a kind of a
what I thought is in case they insist on it,
I will still take i but let me try it
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] yeah, and if they insist, I can always take it.
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Right. [Mr. Ramachandra] So, then I went abroad to the U.S., studied,
I worked for one ... I did my M.S. in Electrical Engineering
[Mr. Ramachandra] and then I ... started working the chips industry. [Mr. Ramachandra] Yes.
[Mr. Ramachandra] You're familiar with the chips industry, I'm sure. [Mr. Ramachandra] Yes.
It so happened that one of the courses that I was taking
in Berkeley was taught by a visiting lecturer
from the East Coast
[Mr. Ramachandra] from Maryland. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.
[Mr. Ramachandra] and Berkeley is in the - in California, West Coast. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.
So, that gentleman a - a - a Chinese actually.,
he - when he finished the course,
he asked all of us if - those who want to
come and work in that company on the East Coast
please come and see me. So, I went there and - and
two other Indians also went
and he gave us an application form and he signed it
saying, so that he can recognize
[Mr. Ramachandra] when the application form comes there. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.
That it has been given to his student by him.
So, I fill it and send it and then
I got - he asked me to come for an interview and I took a job,
when I had a job in California also
and most of my Berkeley friends, Indian friends,
they chose not to get out of California.
They felt California is the - the best place to live
[Mr. Ramachandra] and in Maryland the winters can be severe. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.
So, he said- they even asked me: why are you going there?
I was the only person who left,
I said no, because I like this man,
the gentleman is a very experienced person
so, I I think I can learn more from him,
whereas, in California my
when I - I got a job with - in - in one company
and my - the person who might have been my boss
or who would have been boss
was probably 3, 4 years older than me.
So, he certainly was more knowledgeable in that field,
but the one in the other company where I went to
[Mr. Ramachandra] he was at least 20 years more older than me [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.
and he is extremely experienced,
[inaudible] later I found out - I didn’t know it;
when I took the job I didn’t know,
that he had already published 25 newspaper - papers
in - in different journals on chips.
He had 25 patents also, U.S. patents.
[Mr. Ramachandra] So, you know, I was lucky to go and work for somebody [Mr. Ramachandra] Yes.
[Mr. Ramachandra] who is so knowledgeable. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.
So, for me, it - it was not important to stay in California
but it was more important to go to somebody
[Mr. Ramachandra] from whom I can learn. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes, yes.
So, while I was working there then I went to
Johns Hopkins University,
there is a university called Johns Hopkins
in - and there I took ... I did evening course
and took a second master's in management science
because from a very young age
I wanted to go get into management
not into - into research.
I wanted to start in research,
do some development work,
but my aim was to go into senior executive position
because my dad was a senior executive
in textile mills and I - I was sort of
[Mr. Ramachandra] wanted to emulate him. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] You wanted to follow him. [Mr. Ramachandra] Follow his
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] footsteps. Yeah.
So, I said a management degree would help,
an MBA might also have helped
but this was slightly different
but it was still a management degree.
So, and that helped me also
later when I worked for Philips.
So, so, I went - I worked in the U.S. for about 3 and half years,
then I came back to India
[Mr. Ramachandra] with the intention to settle down [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.
but it didn’t- I got married at that time ...
I didn’t - after a few months in Ahmedabad
because that’s where my parents were living -
I got a job in Pune.
A very short - I mean
a job in a very small company,
but they were assembling chips
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] in transistors. Not chips mostly transistors
and they said they will start making chips
sometime in the future
but they didn’t know what they were talking about
because to make chips you need a lot of investment
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] which that company was not capable of doing
but I took the job and because I had nothing else to do
and I didn’t want to sit at home.
And I said: okay, as a first job I'll take it
and then I will see further;
I was also offered an opportunity by
one gentleman to start a company in Ahmedabad.
In fact, he was the managing director
of the company where my father was working.
So, and he said that I would like you to start a company,
I'll do all the negotiations with the Gujarat government
or central government for the licenses and everything else,
so, you don’t - you won’t be bothered about
all those bureaucratic matters,
you just develop a product and then, you know.
But somehow I was not very comfortable
being an entrepreneur, I don’t think I'm an
I didn’t feel I was an entrepreneur.
I was more like a person who worked for a big company.
So, I didn’t take that opportunity.
And then, actually, when I was working
in that small company in Pune,
I read ... article in a - in a trade magazine
that Philips is going to start manufacturing chips
in India. In India.
And so, I sent my application to that
managing director of Philips India.
So, he is the biggest boss in Philips India
and then he called me for interview.
And after the interview, I was - I was told that well,
you seem to have the qualifications
and you could - you will be the first employee,
but ... you need to go to Holland for an interview
because we cannot judge,
they are not - they had no exposure to chips
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] technology. Yes.
So, I went to Holland for 1 week
for interview and they selected me
and they said that - actually they told me
the management of Philips India is saying that
they want you to be here for 4 years
and then they want you back,
but we want you to be here in Holland forever
because we - your background is very suited
for the work which we are doing here.
So, we would like you to be in Holland
but if you choose to go back after 4 years
that’s your decision.
So, so, I - what I did is I - I did
decide to come back to India,
because my - my goal was to settle in India.
So, after three and a half years
I decided, in - in Holland, I decided
I was working in the chips industry there with Philips
I want to go back to India. So, I told them to give me
a job and then Philips India -
I wrote to the management of Philips India -
they offered me a job in Pune
as a development manager,
but in a different environment, not in the chips industry
but in an electronics equipment industry
[Mr. Ramachandra] where, you know, you must be knowing oscilloscopes right? [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.
[Mr. Ramachandra] And digital multimeters. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.
So, if you want to measure voltage or current
instead of analog, with those needle,
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] there are digital multimeter.
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] And then audio systems
if you want to have a - a big conference hall,
and there you have to install a big audio system,
professional type of thing - all those things
were being done in Pune
and they wanted an R and D manager.
So, Philips in India they said we are offering you that job,
we cannot offer you anything in chips
because the chips industry
[Mr. Ramachandra] the license did not come. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.
The Government Of India was putting
so many conditions on Philips,
that Philips said: We will not start up for chips factory,
your conditions are not acceptable -
but I wanted to come back to India.
So, I decided that even if I don’t want
if I don’t get a job in chips in India,
I want to be in India.
So, I came back and so,
I came after four and half years or
[Mr. Ramachandra] 4 years and some months in Holland. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Holland.
I came back to India in Pune
and I worked for 5 years
and then then the story changes a bit.
After 3 years I got, got very disappointed with India.
At that time there was ... emergency, there's all
kinds of unrest in India.
It was not a pleasant time of ... in India
from '75 to '80.
and - and you know, I was also not very happy in the job
[Mr. Ramachandra] because chips was my passion. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.
[Mr. Ramachandra] And, you have to work in a field [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.
where you have a passion, and that equipment was okay,
but you know it is just a job, you know.
You don’t work only for a salary,
you work for something more than a salary.
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] And I could not ...
my father was also very highly technically professional.
So, he saw that I was not doing the right thing.
So, he said: No, you go back to Holland or to the U.S.,
[Mr. Ramachandra] you also worked in the US, but don’t stay here. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.
And I had a technical director in Philips,
also a Tamilian, very nice person.
He knew me because he had -
during my stay in Holland,
he was also there, before he became a director
on the board of Philips India
his - his name is Venkatraman, S. Venkatraman.
He lives in Chennai, he is - he must be 87 now.
Venkatraman said, Mr. Venkatraman said:
Ram you have done work in chips,
even though I was under him;
of course, there was one manager between me and him
he said you don’t stay here,
you go - go to - go back to Holland.
He even said that and when my father
said and he also said,
I went back for my parents actually
you know, because they were getting old.
Then my father said: No, no, don’t stay for us,
you know, because you have to think about
yourself and your children.
So, it was not an easy decision
to leave the country at that time because I'm
first, I was there for 1 year between
U.S. and Holland, I was in India for 1 year
and then after going to Holland
[Mr. Ramachandra] I came back to India for 5 years. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.
with very clear intent to stay in India
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Ok. [Mr. Ramachandra] but it didn’t work out
and maybe I could - if I had still
[Mr. Ramachandra] put up with all the inconveniences, [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.
I might have continued, but I felt that
it was not worth it.
In my perception, it was not worth it.
So, because I didn’t know
[Mr. Ramachandra] when things would get better. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.
At that time it was looking so bleak,
it ... maybe it'd have been better in 3 years' time.
Maybe, you know, in 10 years' time - you don’t know
and the actual fact after I left
you know what happened,
Indira Gandhi was assassinated, you know,
many things happened which were not very nice in India,
unfortunate things happened.
And ... but anyway it is also destiny, you know, somewhere I felt
my mind - my thought process said that
if I have to worry about my future, the - my children’s future
and if things are so uncertain -
today, things are much better
you know, young and many IIT students don’t even go abroad.
They don’t go to the U.S. for studies.
But in - in 1975 to '80 when I was living in Pune,
[Mr. Ramachandra] things were not like that. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.
Pretty bleak, actually.
Yes, there was a lot of migration to the U.S.
during my student days.
[Mr. Ramachandra] Yeah, yeah. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Practically everyone.
[Mr. Ramachandra] Yeah. In my time not much. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] went to study or work in the U.S.
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] I - I mean because, it was very early
[Mr. Ramachandra] going to the US. But, yes [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.
you are right in your time almost 90 percent
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] went to - or 80 percent left. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.
So, then in 1978, '79, I started looking
for a job in Holland or in the U.S.
and the management of Philips, you know,
they were kind enough because,
they'd seen my work in the previous
three and half - four years.
So, "You come back," they said. So, I got a job.
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Right. [Mr. Ramachandra] So, that was.
So, you have been in Holland ever since.
[Mr. Ramachandra] Since 1980 uninterruptedly we have been in Holland. [Mr. Ramachandra] I see.
And we like that country,
[Mr. Ramachandra] it’s a small country. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.
It’s a well managed -
it’s - it’s a kind of a democratic socialism.
And the - the ... what I like about democratic socialist countries is
that the income inequality is less
and the - there is income support for people
who cannot find good jobs.
So, if somebody, because of whatever reason
you know, if there are 100 people,
there might be 20 people in society - in any society -
who are unable to get proper jobs.
Now, we cannot leave them
with such a state of poverty
because that is - in a in a developed
country with a high level of per
capita income like in Holland,
they don’t tolerate poverty.
So, they say: well we had to do something.
So, the whole tax structure - structure -
everything else is such that
on the one hand there is capitalism,
there is a market economy with proper regulations,
at the same time there is income support for people who are not
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. Yeah. [Mr. Ramachandra] doing well.
And then there is a skill training, reskillling.
of the people so that they get some job eventually
and that reskilling can take 6 months,
[Mr. Ramachandra] 1 year, even 3 years. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yeah, oh.
So, the - the purpose is that
there is no poverty. Of course, I don’t say
that that goal has been achieved,
there is maybe still about 3, 4 percent of the people who are poor
but relative to other countries
including the U.S., especially the US,
we have much less poverty.
We have better health care system
and ... there are many things
about it which - you cannot make plenty of money in Holland.
You can make decent money
but you can’t make as much money as in the US.
So, if you have somebody who's very talented
and the main thing was to do is
become a millionaire, multi-millionaire,
make a lot of money, then
Holland is not the place
but you can earn enough to have a good life.
Have you been in touch with IIT since going to Holland?
Unfortunately, not enough
now I regret it, but I did come in there
[Mr. Ramachandra] for the golden jubilee. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.
And that was a very good experience, I - I loved it.
Those 2 days were well-organized
you know all, I mean, how I should say
all kudos or you know, applause to
everybody who who did that.
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes, sure. [Mr. Ramachandra] It’s a fantastic job.
Plus, in addition, I have
the opportunity to meet all my friends
[Mr. Ramachandra] who came back. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.
And some of them I met only after ...
[Mr. Ramachandra] I mean, that was the only time I met after we left the IIT. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.
[Mr. Ramachandra] So, it was a great day, [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] That is 50 years, yes.
great fun, yeah, yeah.
So - and I should have come on that - for that 25th anniversary
because I was informed about it.
Mahadevan or Srinivasan one of them had informed
and for some reason I didn’t come, I can’t remember
but if I'd come I would have - I would have felt better,
yeah, yeah, sometimes you make mistakes
and then you regret it. Yeah, so, yeah.
But it would have been fun if I had come, really, yeah. So,
[Mr. Ramachandra] so am I - have I taken too much time? [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yeah,
[Mr. Ramachandra] that is just fine. Thank you very much, sir, [Mr. Ramachandra] Yeah, yeah.
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] for having participated. [Mr. Ramachandra] Sure, sure sure.
No, I loved it and maybe I
talked a little bit too much.
No, it was just fine.
[Mr. Ramachandra] Thank you again. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Again, sure thank you.
I would like to first thank Mrs. Mamata Dash
and Mr. Kumaran, head of the
Heritage Centre for making it possible
for me to add a few things
to the interview which was taken of me
at the Heritage Centre, a few months back.
The reason I am doing this is because
I forgot to say a few things
and I would like to complete the interview by
saying these few things.
As far as my career in Holland is concerned,
starting from 1980,
I started as a manager of a small group of 6 engineers
and then moved up
as the general manager of a large
chip-manufacturing facility.
In fact, the 2nd largest
within Philips worldwide in Holland.
And, then I was further promoted as a
vice president of industrial strategy
and operations within the
semiconductor division of Philips.
At the time I had gone to Holland in 1980,
there were not too many Indians
and so, I did - did need to break the glass ceiling.
Since, the Dutch management of Philips
were - were not familiar with ... Indians
to that extent as they are now.
In the meantime, there are many Indians
who have come to Holland,
they are all highly qualified professionals
in different disciplines as engineers,
IT professionals, finance and accounting professionals,
programme managers and you name it.
And, you now have
no glass ceiling up to a very high level.
In fact, the chief financial officer
of Philips electronics at this moment
is of Indian origin
and his background is Chartered Accountancy.
Also the Chartered Accountancy degree, a qualification
which was not very much recognized
when I first went to Holland
is now very much appreciated
as one of the best accounting qualifications in the world.
And there are many many Chartered Accountants
in Holland, besides of course,
many engineers and IT professionals.
There are also all - all the universities in - in Holland
offer Master’s degree
and Ph.D. programmes in the English language
so, much so, that
some of the top universities have
500 to 800 Indian students
doing Master’s degrees and Ph.D. degrees
in engineering, in maths, physics,
and in different other disciplines.
There are also many universities which offer
high quality business programmes like
MBA and doctor of business management.
In all these universities, the programmes are
are all in English and in some universities
and quite a few of them
there are also bachelor’s degree programmes in engineering
and in business administration.
The tuition fees in Holland are a lot lot less
than in the U.S., though the quality of education within
every university in Holland is comparable to the
top 20 universities in the U.S.
As a consequence, I - I do notice that there are many
students who are now coming to Holland
for their further studies
and I hope that this will continue
in so, so far as social life is concerned
there are Indians of - coming from all the states
and that has made it also very interesting to live in Holland.
Finally, the work-life
balance in Holland is much better than in most countries,
the health insurance is of
the world-class quality
and the overall quality of life
is one of the best in the world.
The happiness index measured by the United Nations
in - for people living in different countries
has resulted in the conclusion
that the Scandinavian countries and some other countries plus
Netherlands, Netherlands are the best countries as far as
the happiness level with which people are living there.
These were the things which I wanted to say to -
because, it is not always known to
many Indians who are living in different parts of the world, especially in India.
The opportunities for top-quality professionals who have
already worked in India are very good there,
the company sponsors the these people who
who have good qualifications under
special visa considerations
and these visas are such that
within 5 years after arriving in Holland,
if they perform well as
top professional, can get permanent residence in Holland
and if he chooses to get the - the citizenship of Holland,
he can also get the citizenship
after 5 years of stay in Holland.
The only requirement is
before he gets the citizenship, he has to pass - he or she -
has to pass a simple Dutch language test.
Majority of the - the young people in Holland speak English,
in my time, the people of my generation
understood English but not all of them could speak it fluently.
Today, everybody is learning English
in high school and majority of them
are watching English language programmes
and all the younger people who are people
let’s say below 50, can speak and
understand English very very fluently.
These are the things which make life in Holland very interesting.
I thought I would add this
for the benefit of those who may not know these things.
Thank you very much.
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Material
A talk by Mr. Mallik Putcha, first batch alumnus (1964)
And then, my roll number is 1.04/59
and then the way that we have
come to know of IIT Madras was I think
my elder brothers they were in the academic field.
And so, because of that we knew the importance of the IITs
compared to the other state colleges like
Guindy or other PSG College of Technology
or Kakinada and all of that.
So, if I remember right, the advertisements
came in Hindu and Indian Express
and other local papers, sometime in
May-ish kind of a time frame.
So, I applied for the for the admission and I think
we had the interview call sometime around maybe
1st week in June or maybe end of May, end of May or so.
And so, we had the interviews and then the selection process
was based upon our marks in the pre-university and then
we had an extended interview by about 6 to 8 IIT professors
as well as the German professors.
And I think they had two selection committee
interviews were going on simultaneously.
So, I think they have done it in a matter of a day or 2 at best.
And so, I think after the interviews were over,
we were we we got the selection notice saying that
you have been selected.
And our first batch was about 120 people.
The one thing that I wanted to mention about it was
because they are designated as the
Indian Institutes of Technology
based upon Prime Minister Nehru’s desires,
we had representation all the way from Kashmir to Kerala,
Assam to now at that time Bombay.
So, we are 120 of us and then there the students represented
the entire cross section of India
and we had our first day of classes on June 22nd 1959.
At that time they they call they our classes were conducted
at the AC College of Technology in various rooms
as well as in the Chemistry labs and then Physics lab.
And then the workshop used to be in the back back area
and then the Administration Buildings used to be
at CLRI that’s where the registrars and then the
administration buildings used to be.
One thing that I wanted to mention is
when we came to our first day of classes on June 22nd 1950. July.
July. No, no. June, June, it was June 22nd in 1959,
the entire faculty of IIT Madras approximately
about 25; 20 to 25 people including the German professors
were there on the steps of
AC College of Technology to welcome us.
And I don’t think any anyone, any one of the colleges
at that time would have that kind of an honor
by the by the faculty members of the of any institute
and that’s why it was a really a great privilege to have that.
And then we used to have our classes
Monday through Friday and then Saturday used to be a half day.
And then so, we have 4 sections: A, B, C, D
And then we as we call it, we had a of the sandwich sessions,
A and B used to be in the academic and C and D
used to be in in the workshop.
So, that means, for 40 hours a week
we used to be in the work, I mean the
academic area depending upon the designation.
And then the other people used to be in the workshop,
then they reverse it the following week.
So, the one the the emphasis that Germans
did as as all know, the West German Government
is the one that provided the support,
technical support to IIT Madras.
So, their notion was that you are going to be an engineer.
So, what they wanted to make sure is
when you will be provided with an engineering drawing
and if you are provided with an engineering drawing
you should be in a position to manufacture it.
And then you should be able to read the drawing
and then get the the item manufactured.
You have some small pieces of our workshop products.
We had carpentry, we had smithy and then
we had the lathe work, sometime in 61-62ish,
kind of a time frame when the workshops
were built around not too far from this building.
And I think later on I believe they were
demolished and then all of that.
And so the first one was used to be from,
our classes used to be from 7:30 to 11:30 and then 1 to 4.
And the hostels were at Saidapet Hostels and that
used to be at behind the the Teachers College Campus
and it was actually previously, before we occupied
it was previously a girls hostel with Madras University.
And then so, we were about 80 of us in the Saidapet Hostel
for the vegetarian people and then for the non-vegetarian
people about 40, it used to be at Guindy Hostel.
So, from those that hostel we used to come around
I think leave the hostel after the breakfast
and all of that and come over to the classes around
7:30, with a bicycle; most of us used to come by bicycles.
And of course, you know we used to have some
buses used to be there, but I think
because of the vagaries of the Madras bus transportation
we prefer to come by bus.
And then sometimes I think some people used to come,
you can come across from the little Adyar river over there,
from the back side of the our Saidapet Hostel,
you could come across, but that was only in the
evening kind of a time frame, but morning time frame
generally we used to come by bus.
So, it was not too bad, around the traffic
was not too bad compared to what it is right now.
And so, the classes used to be held
in the AC College of Technology and then the
first class used to be in English, Professor Krishnan
used to be teaching us and he used to teach
teach Hamlet at that time.
So, I think he used to be the Principal at the A.M.
Jain College at Meenambakkam at that time,
and so since he he was teaching us the Hamlet.
So, he used to come with a nice [FL] paan and all of that,
so with the red lips and all of that.
So, when he used to enter the thing in the auditorium
the lecture hall kind of an auditorium
we used to say “enter ghost”.
And so and then when he leaves we used to say,
around classes used to be about 1 hour duration.
And when he leaves around 8:30,
we used to call him “exeunt ghost”,
just to get a little bit of kick out of our classes and all of that.
And then of course, we had Mathematics, Physics, Chemistry.
And Maths professor was used to be the Professor Hahn
and so, when Professor Hahn and then they in the
Mathematics and then Professor Koch Koch in Physics,
the entire faculty of the department
used to be in the back row.
And one comment that I wanted to make a mention
if that as you know after 60 years plus,
generally the German Professor used to teach
in the early stages of our instructions.
And then Sir Professor Hahn used to teach us Mathematics
and then he used to teach the Algebra at that time.
And then Schaum series were very form
for I think they just came into vogue at that time.
So, he used to teach the Schaum series and then in the
the the the algebra from the Schaum series.
So, once in a while Professor S. K. Srinivasan the, at that time
he was the Assistant Professor at
in the Maths Department.
And then so, when he had we made a mistake
or something was incorrect, Professor Hahn used to
have a little habit of putting his finger like this.
And then the moment he puts that finger like this
then Srinivasan used to get very nervous
saying that he made a mistake and then
he used to be little bit jumping
little bit on the platform over there.
So, when he used to do that we knew that Professor Hahn
was putting his finger like this.
So, anyway that was a little bit of a
fun fun factor of the various teachers.
And then the of course, the we had the tutorial classes.
And so, when we had tutorial classes
I think particularly on Saturdays I think,
they used to have various tutorial classes to help us out
with the understanding of the concept to make sure
that we understood the principles behind what they were
talking about in Math, Physics, Chemistry and all of that.
And then we had the Chemistry labs as well as
the Physics labs in the AC College of Technology.
Initially Dr. Venkateswarlu he was actually the professor
in the Chemical Engineering, but he used to be the one
and I think his one of the other names that
I remember was Ram Sharma and then I forget the names,
but there are not that many people in each department
we had about less than 4 to 5 people.
And then Rama Sastry used to be in the Physics Department.
And then I think BHV,
I am not getting I am not getting the name
that few of the people were there.
So, we had a wonderful lab experience and
we used to do the the U-tube principles thing.
And one thing that I wanted to mention,
when we were doing the U-tube
experiment in the Physics lab
that is where the we will have to determine the the
the purpose of the experiment was to determine
the frequency of the tuning fork.
If I remember right there is a standard used to be
around 600 or 650 cycles or whatever.
So, you have the U-tube and then so what you do is
you need to get a resonance when you and then strike the thing
with a rubber mallet and then put it on the top of the thing
and then you get the minimum or the maximum and
all of that based upon the the column of water
you could determine the the tuning fork frequency.
And one of the comments that Professor Rama Sastry
used to make is you need to have a musical ear
to figure out when is the maximum volume and
then when is the minimum volume depending upon the
column of water, but anyway we used to have
lot of fun with the experience.
One thing that I also wanted to mention is most of these
faculty members were around 25 to 35 ish kind of a range
compared to the Director who were maybe 40 plus and all of that.
So, for them in the first few years when we were there,
because we were all around 16 plus 17 in the beginning
and then so were essentially by the time we graduated in 64,
we were about 21, 22 ish kind of a thing.
So, they really the affections that they had for us
in the first batch on their subsequently in the second batches
and third batches were, we were they treated us
more like their younger brothers.
And so we were only 120 you know I think in the
first batch and then similarly in the second
batch also only 120 plus.
So, we had such a close knit kind of a relationship
on a one on one kind of a thing.
So, they know all of our names by first name
and even sometimes our pet names
that our all of us had in some fashion or other.
And then of course, my name was where they my nickname
was PMV my initials and all of that.
Similarly, the other people had some different names
and then so, we had that kind of a close relationship
compared to what it is right now because obviously,
now I was told I think today is the first day of class
I think first I think there are about 850 or 900 people
in the first day or the first I mean first year batch.
There is no way you could have the personal relationship
with the each of the individual ones.
The first two years we were in Saidapet Hostel and
then the the third year beginning of third year
that is June of 1961, we came onto the campus.
We we lived in Krishna and Cauvery
are the first hostel that were built.
Actually Krishna was the first one.
So, the second batch of people actually
came onto the campus first time
they occupied the hostels in 1960.
At that time it was called the Taramani Taramani Hostel
then later on they changed into the
Krishna and Cauvery and all of that.
So, the so basically my room number was
Room 107 Cauvery Hostel
and now I think it is now Room 207.
And we had wonderful time at
because all of us used to be in the hostels.
And one thing that Sengupto
our first Director insisted was that
everybody in the in the in the IIT
has to be resident in a hostel.
There are few of few of our classmates
they had their houses
their parents houses in Saidapet and Adyar and
all of that and they wanted to take a get an exemption,
but he said no, he will not allow that.
So, basically he said ok, if you want to do that that’s fine,
you have to pay your room rent irrespective
whether you stay or not, but finally, anyway
they have to stay and all of that.
So, I think the the thing that I really like in that
one is by staying in the hostels
we developed our soft skills.
And so, because as I was mentioning in the first batch
we had representation across the whole
cross section of the country,
we know the idiosyncrasies of the various people
from the various states their cultural
and then food habits and the idiosyncrasies.
And so by the time that we got to final year in 64,
all our idiosyncrasies and then
sharp corners have been rounded off.
So, that really helped us to whenever we go
and get a job in some other locations across
the country or even for that matter across the world,
we know how to conduct ourselves in the various
social situations as well as in professional situations
with people that are different either Indian or the foreigners or
something of that American and Britishers or something.
So, that helped us to have the different soft skills
and that really helped us out.
And then after the our first day classes
in on campus used to be in 1960, the first building
we had was in the Building Sciences Building and
then the classes used to be held in Room 105
and that’s where most of our classes used to be held.
And then of course, then later on we had the
Mechanical Engineering, Electrical and then I am from Electrical.
And then they had they used to have the
light current designation for the Electronics,
and then the heavy current for the
heavy heavy currents for the Power people.
And so we had our classes in Electrical Engineering Building
I think sometime in 1961.
And then of course, we had the Humanities Building
and then the other workshops and all of that.
And then so I think that’s that was the setup.
And then we had we graduated on on July 11th, 1964.
And then the previous day one fun fact was
the faculty gave the graduand class of 92 plus
and then from B.Tech, and then 15 from the M.Tech people
and a dinner with Hema Malini providing the dance number.
At that time Hema Malini was about 15, 16 years old or something.
And so her family requested our first Registrar R. Natarajan.
And then so through through her,
so she had the dance performance and
so that that was a very memorial memorable kind of a event.
And then of course, our first convocation was on July 11th, 1964
and President Radhakrishnan was our guest speaker.
And then of course, the the thing was held
in the Open Air Theater and so I think that was the thing.
And then also the other thing is
I did my M.Tech also over here in 64 to 66.
And so I was here on campus almost for about 7 years
that’s the on the the actual actual campus was 5
because considering the 2 years we were at Saidapet Hostel.
So, the way that I feel is because of the the love of learning
and then the critical thinking skills that our professors
have inculcated in us that stood us in a very strong fashion,
when we are in a professional career anywhere in the world.
So, soon after my my graduation from in from IIT Madras,
I started working at Bharat Electronics in the Special Projects Team
and then I was there for about 5 and half years
and then I went to US to do my Masters.
And then after the Masters and the MBA
and all of that I started working at NASA
Johnson Space Center in the Space Shuttle Program
and then the Space Station Program Constellation
and then the Mission Control Center.
And then I retired in 2012 from the service.
And so I lived I still live in Houston and then
it is really a great honor for us that
we had the honored Director and the other people
have done last night at the at the event
in the Science Activities Building.
One thing that I wanted to make a little appeal
for all the people is number 1 is right now
there are about 48000 of us who graduated from IIT Madras.
First batch they we were 92 B.Tech and then 15 M.Tech.
So, first graduating class on July 11th 1964 was 107 people.
Now we are total of about 48000, from the figures that
I heard from our the Dean of International Alumni and
International and Alumni Relations Mahesh Panchagnula
approximately about 10 percent about 5000 people
have given and I wanted to give give back
to the IIT Madras in some fashion.
Some people have given enormously like Kris and Deshpande
and others, but whereas, others I think
quite a few of the people have not really
contributed to the IIT Madras.
I would really urge all of you to just to consider
a fact of life how IIT Madras contributions
stack up against the world class institutions like
MIT, Stanford not more than other.
Our numbers are around 10 percent less than 10 percent.
The numbers for MIT it is about I now sure MIT
was about 150 years plus they cut the the alumni of MIT,
30 percent of the people give back to MIT.
Dartmouth, the numbers when I checked last
was about 36 percent.
So, right now if you really compare
if you want to be the world class institution
competing against the Stanwood, Stanfords,
MITs and Hogwarts, we really need to increase our
contributions to give back to the institution for the various purpose.
And I think they have multiple purposes that
the office has created in in order to give back to the institution.
So, please contribute whatever you could, 1 dollar or 1 rupee.
Sure you may have various reasons
why you cannot do it because of the
family considerations and other consideration.
But every one of us can give a 1 dollar or 1 rupee,
you are what can do do remember you are
what you are in your life thanks to the
education you got from IIT Madras.
Think about it, contemplate on it.
Please contribute in whatever way you could
over a period of time or whatever you could do or one time or
work with the so the International Alumni Relations
and then as well as with MAA and then
so give something back to the to the institution because
it is for us the 48,000 of us to improve
the world standing of IIT Madras.
Along those lines I wanted to make an appeal
for the Founding Professors Endowment Chairs.
Professor Sampath, he was our first Director,
Deputy Director and then later on he was also
our first our Professor of Electronics and then
because he made a profound impact on me
and so basically the thought came to us sometime in 2011.
And finally, in 2016 we were able to establish
Professor Sampath’s Endowment Chair in December of 2016.
Based upon the success of it, even though
we had some little difficulty to raise the money
and all of that, we made it happen.
What I wanted to emphasize in this appeal is
we wanted to establish the endowment chairs
for all of the founding professors over there from the
beginning of times from 59 through approximately
64 or 65ish kind of a time frame.
It is for us these 64 to 69 graduates
approximately 1200 of us to contribute towards these
48 professors, 36 Indians and 12 Germans.
And we, I got a thing on the website and then
I will be sending out a note out shortly that the
thing was announced yesterday for the Professor Sengupto’s
Chair and then Professor Natarajan’s endowment lecture series
was also announced yesterday.
So, what I would urge you is to the extent that
you could these 1200 of of us the alumni both from
B.Tech, M.Tech and then 3 year, 3 by 3 or a 5 by 5
or a M.Sc or M.Tech or Ph.D,
please do contribute whatever we could to get these
48 professors money raised.
And I am going to be asking the apart
from the alumni, I will be I will be seeking
the help from the our professors family
and their their children non-profit organizations
as well as the corporations plus some of the philanthropists
that are there across like Azim Premji
or with TATAs and all of that.
And yesterday at the meeting I was able to meet
with our Director the previous Director Natarajan,
yeah Natarajan as well as the Kris Gopalakrishnan
and other people and I said ok, hey,
I will come and meet you. So, I am meeting some of them
on 16th to help us out to raise the money.
Total money is what I need is about 500 dollars.
I mean 5 5 million dollars not 500 sorry 5 million dollar
and I think just to get a little kick out of it
you know the people in our generation knew
about the Chalti Ka Naam Gaadi that
was released in about 57, 58 kind of a time frame
and then I think Kishore Kumar and Madhubala
were the the hero and heroines at that time
and so, Kishore Kumar song was
Paanch Rupaiya Baara Aana and all of that.
So, what I need is about 5 million dollars folks.
Let us try to contribute in whatever way
we could to fund all of the 48 Endowment Chairs.
Yesterday I was also talking with the
German Consulate General for the Madras
and then she said she would like to help.
So, what I would really urge you
the purpose of this message is
give back to the to the institutions in whatever
way you could; 1 rupee, 1 dollar.
Please honor your commitment to the institute
Indian Institute of Technology, Madras [FL] Siddhirbhavati Karmaja.
Thank you.
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