Prof. T. Sundararajan in conversation with Prof. K. Srinivasan
Good morning, I am Professor K. Srinivasan
from the Department of Mechanical Engineering, IIT Madras
and today I have the honor of speaking with Professor T. Sundararajan.
Welcome Professor T. Sundararajan.
So, as the part of the IIT Madras Heritage Series.
So, Professor T. S. or Professor T. Su as he is very fondly
called was my teacher at IIT Kanpur
and we have been, I have been fortunate to
be in his constant association ever since.
And so, today I have the privilege of hearing him out from his own words
about his association and his experiences in IIT Madras.
So, before we go into the questions
I would like to briefly introduce Professor Sundararajan
Professor Tirumalachari Sundararajan was born in Madurai in 1957.
He completed his bachelor’s degree in IIT Madras in the year 1978.
So, later on he received his masters and doctoral degrees
from the University of Pennsylvania USA in ‘80 and ‘83.
He joined as an Assistant Professor at IIT Kanpur
before moving to IIT Madras in 1993.
So, Professor Sundararajan's full resume it takes about you know
maybe an hour to complete.
So, I will very briefly give his credentials.
He has published 207 journal articles
and equal number of conference papers.
He has guided a big massive amount of 53 PhD students,
really an unbelievable you know record
and 37 MS students to his credit.
He has conducted research in the areas of Fuel Combustion,
Nanofluid Heat Transfer, Jet Flow Acoustics,
Multiphase Flows, Propulsion,
Heat Transfer in Porous Media and High-Speed Launch Vehicle Systems.
He has carried lot of projects of national importance,
particularly the Fast Breeder Reactor subsystems for IGCAR
and several projects by ISRO, ARDB,
DRDO and DST as a principal coordinator.
He he has also served as principal coordinator of the National Centre for
Combustion Research and Development at IIT Madras
and also, he is he is currently coordinating the DST
project on Solar Thermal Power Generation.
Professor Sundararajan is a fellow of the National Academy of Engineering
and he is also an Institute Chair Professor.
Professor T. S. also received the Astronautical Society of India that is ASI
Award for Rockets and Associated Technology in the year 2006
for his contributions to space research.
So with this short introduction,
so, I will get the questions starting to Professor T.S.
Sir, can you briefly, you know explain how you joined IIT Madras
for the undergraduate program and
I mean what was the procedure for admission in those days?
See nowadays, the JE exam was not well-known
few people knew many did not know.
So happened that in my family, my elder brother
himself did Metallurgy in IIT Madras.
So, I was aware of IIT
and also, I knew that it is a very tough exam to clear and so on.
Those days there was no coaching institute etcetera,
but fortunately I did my Pre-University Class, PUC in Loyola College.
The professors there you know mathematics, chemistry, physics etcetera,
for about a month they helped us
in solving some of the problems etcetera
and that was helpful definitely.
And more than anything else I must say I was playing lucky that you know
I got it in IIT Madras.
So, I think it is a blessing.
Ok, so, was there any interview besides the entrance exam? Or it was
No, there was no interview, but a counseling.
Counseling was held in this NCC building actually
and so, counseling was mainly to select the which area
Department.
Which department you would select and so on.
In fact, my rank was somewhere in the range of some 520 or so,
for that except this, Electronics and Communication,
which was the highest rated branch,
everything else was available
and in fact, my relatives, my brothers
and everybody advised me to take Electrical Power.
I was so afraid of shocks.
So, and really speaking we also did not know
what is Mechanical Engineering and so on.
I mean that much of knowledge was not there,
but I think I made the right choice,
because I was particularly interested in physics.
And and the very you know joking part is that
you ended up right now in producing electrical power.
Yeah. Through the solar.
Yeah, yeah one of my friends told me that
what you get you know
get away from we will come back to you later in life.
So, I was afraid of electrical power because of shocks
and then I took Mechanical.
So, can you briefly recall your undergraduate days,
how it was like and?
Yeah, actually that was 5-year system actually
and being, you know, held by Germany.
So, there was a lot of emphasis on engineering fundamentals.
So, the first 2 years particularly for all branches
there were lot of work of practice and drawing and so on.
Even in the other years lot of emphasis on lab work
for almost every subject there was a lab
and usually afternoons will be lab and so on.
The first year, every alternate week was a workshop week.
So, throughout the week
starting from 8 o’clock in the morning on Monday,
to Saturday noon time it was 5 and half days actually.
So, it was workshop workshop workshop.
So, we have done one full semester of fitting and so on,
because in Germany, you know they would do
first something like a diploma
and then they will go to BE bachelors program.
So, to recapture that kind of experience here in the first 2 years,
there was a lot of workshop,
so, almost every for all branches it was there.
And also, 4 semesters we had drawing for all the branches
and Mechanical had more drawing,
because you know in subjects like Theory of Machines.
Machine drawing.
Or yeah or even design and so on.
So, almost 7 semesters of lot of drawing and so on.
You have to draw by hand, so, there was no CAD and all that.
So, they they really drove into us you know
the fundamentals of engineering engineering. Fundamentals;
I think that was unique in one sense
because other institutions like IIT Kanpur right from day one
they were more into science and theory.
So much of engineering fundamental work
because this this this being supported by Germany.
Germany.
That was a kind of emphasis we had.
So, that is an advantage in terms of the practical. It was an
it was an advantage at undergraduate level.
At undergraduate level yeah.
So, any any recollection about the faculty taught you those days
and any special teachers or the key takeaways that you took from them.
Yeah, there were many so, there were many.
In fact, the first 2 years you know it was common for all the branches.
So, it was mostly physics and chemistry and mathematics and so on.
So particularly physics department,
you know we had for everybody all alumni from Adam Ross from
olden days you know we will remember Professor Swaminathan,
he was brilliant, but a little eccentric person.
He used to sport a beard and so on.
And always in his class you know
if you do not listen him look outside or something then
“oh you saw some lady going there,
I am here with a beard, don’t you see me like that,”
you know you have to listen to
ear full of scolding. He is always taking care of the student’s attention.
Yeah. No, but really brilliant, in during lab classes you know if
he will come and ask you questions and if you answer correctly,
immediately he will give you full marks and you know
so that kind of. Physics, physics.
Very very committed and you know because, see it was
there was a general feeling that these students are cream of the country
and then of course, challenge them all the time.
And then if they stand up to the challenge then support them,
that was the kind of attitude throughout.
To bring out the best.
To bring out the best bring out the best. Among the yes.
And professors also tried their best.
Of course, teaching was a main this thing,
I think research was had not caught on still.
So, that was a kind of general scenario,
while you know we had this kind of little eccentric person,
but they are also very conventional people.
Well another physics professor by name Ramabhadran
and he used to have you know traditional sherwani and then
pancha kaccha this dhoti and then
turban and things like that, but very methodical.
So, like that we had
the conventional as well as unconventional people out there.
And in the department again
so, from 3rd year only mainly the departmental courses started.
So, many of the senior professors
because many of them retired now some are no more also.
And quite a few senior professors are doing their PhD.
Professor Srinivasa Murthy he was doing PhD,
Professor Vijay Raghavan was doing his PhD.
So, like that quite a few of course, senior professors
who have recently retired they were doing a PhD at that time.
So, it was I would say that from a teaching point of view
we really, I mean we had very committed teachers
in almost every subject
and they used to challenge us for everything so.
Did you have any like elite visitors like Nobel laureates or that
you know is still fresh in your memory or something? Invited by
No no I must really say that as undergraduates
see we were very tied up with see the number of courses
which were there every semester typically there will be 7 or 8 courses
and hardly any free time and most of the time there will be labs also.
So, the I would say that other than academics
maybe some music etcetera, some festivals were there,
but in terms of lectures and so on
I must say that started only after my masters and PhD.
Yeah.
In undergraduate level it was more of learning the basics.
Yeah, actually, I have I have it as a separate question little later.
Any difference or the… in the infrastructure in the teaching labs
and in the classrooms?
Very very good, I think the teaching labs were excellent
and in fact, now we do not hear it,
but that time if you come anywhere near MSB
you will get the cling clang of workshop going on all the time.
So, the because every lab was very busy
and the state-of-the-art equipment were there from Germany,
and of course, nowadays everything is all micro or nano sized things.
I think.
More electron, in those days real equipment
almost the power plant was there in the Heat Transfer Laboratory.
So, there there was a boiler, there was a condenser and so on.
Similarly in the Turbo Machines Laboratory real size turbines were there
real big wind tunnels were there.
So, all mega size equipment,
or if you go to you know this in Design Laboratory
one part of it was called you know
they they had big cranes and you know really.
Mechanical Handling.
Handling mechanical handly mechanical handling equipment.
So, even water turbines you know real big size turbines were there so
For example, in many institutions
they just study the Francis turbine Kaplan
See many of them are almost like toy like equipment
not you just buy it from the market in usually small size
these are real actual size.
Real huge things
you know we could see and Huge thing huge things huge things.
In fact, only after my joining the institute
So, in those days big is beautiful not small is beautiful.
So, that is how it was in almost every laboratory.
Only a few years earlier I think
most of these things have been dismantled and some
have been kept in front of Heritage Centre also as part of the memorabilia.
And the thing is that because of this the
experimental work was very much encouraged
and I think even people who were doing research,
doctoral work at that time mostly were experimental work.
And in fact, only I would say in the early 90s etcetera
computers and simulation became slowly came into this.
Sir, something about your classmates and batchmates,
how was your interaction with them and
whether you still keep in touch with some? Yeah, yeah, we are a very close-knit group actually.
So, how many classmates were there? Almost see whomever we could track alright,
see I I think in the batch there were little more than 200 alright
in the entire batch not Mechanical all put together.
Mechanical was one of the larger branches,
all put together little more than 200.
And almost all of them are in the group
and it is a very very close-knit group.
So, every 5 years or so You still have a WhatsApp group now?
Yeah yeah, we do.
Actually we used to have this Yahoo groups.
And then so, 1978 Yahoo group was a very powerful group and
Now, they were disbanded it.
Yeah, yeah because Yahoo did not want to.
So, we have switched to over to other thing.
Yeah. So, I think there will be a long list.
Right from our 25th year reunion no,
after that group has become even closer.
Your 25th batch you know they donated something to IIT.
So, can just few sentences about what was that?
I think it was about a crore that we
No not the money but…
No no, see it was the see the thing is that
at that time this new common mess facility etcetera was being built.
The Himalaya.
So, one wing of Himalaya was contributed. Was your batches batch’s contribution.
That is nice.
See earlier, in our time every hostel used to have its own mess
and so, it was all hostel was a self-contained unit,
whereas, I think the administration felt it is better
if you know you make everything common, so, a common mess.
Some batches contribution we are able to see while we walk
within the MSB or HSB the 1977 batch or something.
So, yours is Himalaya which
you know along with other batches they have made the 6 large mess.
Yeah, so, the institute was undergoing some kind of you know
radical change in terms of many more hostels and building and coming up so
You know the right time to support. Right time to yeah.
So, any one thing could be named
after our batch contribution etcetera so
Sir, how was the hostel life, how was the mess food?
In fact, even now our director Professor Ramamurthi
he is also around the same time, he passed out in 1980. Ok.
We are hostel mates also.
He keeps saying that
the hostel life is something that many people have cherished
because see at home you have one brother one sister maybe,
but here it is like almost like everybody is a brother.
So, it is a big brotherhood.
So, that and it is a very impressionable age also.
So, at that time the kind of friendships that you form they are lifelong.
So, hostel life was very very pleasant very pleasant and.
Mess food.
Yeah, it was ok, nothing to really comment about. Any any particular things for example,
I still will recall if somebody you know asks me,
I cannot forget the aloo paratha and jalebi of IIT Kanpur.
So, any such remembrance you have?
No no. In fact, it is little other way
that see any hostel menu is all routine know
you will says certain such day certain such thing will be there.
So, that used to be little, but of course,
Sunday morning breakfast used to be masala-dosa
that everybody really liked. Masaladosa.
Very crisp masala dosa is used to be there.
And Saturday evening they used to give very light dinner,
because people will go to OAT.
OAT.
And you will finish little earlier also where 8 o’clock the movie will start.
So, the Saturday night dinner was more like bread
and sandwich kind of a thing and something very light.
So, OAT were you were regular to the OAT movies?
Sometimes not always.
So, how was Chennai different as a city
as you see compared to what you see today?
Today that is maddening traffic everywhere
and you know that was not the case earlier and so…
This would just be a few buildings inside a jungle type of thing and.
No no, see it was Adyar was not so crowded at that time.
So many times in fact, we used to walk from hostel all the way to beach
and come back, just walk and go alright.
So, that was possible and,
but today I think I will not risk my life to walk around.
In fact, my father was manager in Thiruvanmiyur
Industrial Estate, Manager of the bank.
So, he works late and when he used to come back,
he says that every time I this Madhya Kailash region
all the way up to Anna University that stretch was real you know
because it was very lonely it looks like.
Olden days.
So, you are then yeah coming to your Kanpur experience.
So, can you recollect your experiences at Kanpur
your colleagues, the teaching experience?
Yeah, I must say one thing here as an interlude
that the bachelor’s program IIT Madras was
very intense in engineering knowledge,
but that in fact, to tell you the truth
by the time I finished my bachelor’s degree
I felt maybe I did not know anything,
I did not grasp anything that was the feeling some kind of vacuum I felt.
But after I went to US and did my master’s degree
and then continued to PhD
I realized that lot of you know engineering fundamentals had been absorbed
I just did not know about it.
That was very helpful in doing the research,
but my research was more theoretical.
So, in computer-based simulation and so on.
So, that was really the other side of the coin.
No, you already had a couple of JFMs
by the time you had finished your PhD. No that was all based on simulation computer simulation.
So, I picked up the theoretical modeling
that in fact, for quite some time it that was considered as my strength actually
and those fundamentals came from my masters, Phd
experience at the University of Pennsylvania and continued at IIT Kanpur.
So, IIT Kanpur when I returned,
IIT Kanpur was known for modeling theoretical modeling,
and in fact, computer science as a subject
you know was spearheaded by Professor Rajaraman. Rajaraman.
Alright, so, otherwise in those days
computer science was taught only at master’s level
not at bachelor’s level.
So, people will do engineering degree in any discipline and then go to
masters at PhD in computer science that was a general,
but bachelors level itself starting computer science
was something that Professor Rajaraman started.
So, IIT Kanpur was pretty strong in terms of theoretical modeling
the the science-based education is what they believe.
So that fitted very well with my research experience at US
and then I continued further and one more thing was that
ok I also must make this general comparison,
that in IIT Madras each discipline Mechanical Engineering
or even at Mechanical Engineering, Heat Transfer, Fluid Mechanics,
Turbo Machines everything was sort of a separate kind of entity and
but in Kanpur that was not the case.
It was across departments within department etcetera
lot of interaction was there and that helped me quite a bit also
to get a broader perspective of engineering.
So, what was your relationship with colleagues at IIT Kanpur?
Very good.
In fact, I must say that I was very young at the time,
see I straightaway I went after bachelor’s degree
did not do any job in the industry or anything.
I finished my B. Tech when I was about 21, 22.
And then I went to US about
4 and half years both masters and PhD were over.
So, at the age of around 26 you know already
the doctor PhD was in my hand.
So, and then little bit post doc work also.
So, around 28 I joined IIT Kanpur.
So, everybody this young guy has come and joined.
So, every, very patronizing they are all very senior people also
I got lot of encouragement.
No, even in your own age group?
Yeah, yeah yeah. Large group. For example, Professor Muralidhar calls you.
He joined 2 years later.
He he calls you…he calls himself as Ram ka Bharath.
Anyway. So, IIT Kanpur Mechanical Eengineering Department.
So, the senior people felt that these young people are.
Future of the institution. Future of the of the of the institute
and I received a lot of encouragement and then
of course, they said you have to start laboratory and so on.
And got involved in some lab development
and things like that I was very happy.
Yeah, your lab I mean as a student we have
undertaken your lab course in Kanpur.
So, that is one you know nice thing.
But I have also seen your room lighted up
even at say 10 pm or 11 pm with people like V. C. Rao
and like P. C. Das’s other students from mathematics also.
Say, just bee lining into your room
and you are said to be an expert in
debugging the printout of codes
FORTRAN Anyway for record I must say that
after coming to IIT Madras I stopped looking into codes.
No, no no can you just recall those experiences,
where you spend you burnt the,
I mean I mean the midnight oil and debugging the this
errors in the codes.
See more I should say that
in Kanpur I learned how to do research in India.
See many people say that in fact, the general feeling was that
you can’t do much research in India
that is the general feeling that people had,
but it proved to be wrong in my case.
So, I found that if you work with students alright
anywhere in the world good work can be done.
So, and then Kanpur also gave me the
opportunity to interact with colleagues from different departments.
So, collaborative work was possible
and those kind of things I I really think that
it was a very very fruitful experience for me,
in the career development it played a very important role.
So, sir when did you join IIT Madras
and what was the reasons for moving to IIT Madras?
It was primarily you know family reasons only,
my parents were here and they required help.
So, after about 8 and a half years of work in IIT Kanpur
I shifted to IIT Madras.
And I must say that IIT Madras also went through a transformation at that time,
maybe I should recall this a little bit
that one problem that IIT Madras had
maybe because of the German this thing,
we were very strong in experimental work.
In the German institutions what they do is
the professor there will be one senior professor,
he will be you know very very senior
and everybody look at him like God,
but below him there will be several postdocs,
several doctoral students
a group of maybe 50-60 people working with him.
The similar kind of thing also developed in IIT Madras,
but the problem was most of the PhDs are local PhDs,
people who are joined with the master’s degree
or something doing their PhD here.
I have nothing against it,
but the problem this is so called inbreeding as they say
that if you have your own students working as faculty.
After a while you know in everything
whether it even for there is a cross pollination is a good thing
that you get ideas from outside.
So, IIT Madras suffered from this inbreeding problem that
many many faculty have the earlier times did their PhD
and of course, many were very good people there also.
But still, what happens is when you are working if you do your PhD,
by the time you finish PhD you are already 45.
So, your energetic years are gone.
So, after that you do not expect much of
you know the original work to come through.
So, that was also part of the problem
and this was changing around the ‘90s.
And that is when when I applied from IIT Kanpur to IIT Madras
and I found that many of my mentors
Professor Natarajan, Professor Seetharamu etcetera,
many of them were welcoming you know this kind of a thing
that we must bring in new blood
we must bring in.
So, it happened around that time so that is all.
So, that was about ‘93.
‘93 in the ‘90s yeah.
So, it must about 10 years after you left the campus so
No, I left in ‘78.
More than a decade. 17, 15 years.
15 years.
So, any stark differences you saw the change within the campus.
See by the time I returned it was already a 4-year program
B. Tech was a 4-year program the emphasis,
which was there on engineering education that is,
workshop and drawing and
In fact, we have lots of laboratories you know many many,
one lab on electronics, one lab on electrical machines.
I I do not even remember how many were there…
almost every subject even if the subject was not
dealt with very deeply there was a laboratory.
So that is how it was
because of which you know dealing with machines dealing with
you know many practical things
you know that was really very very good at bachelors level alright so
So, that curriculum was I am I am still very proud of that.
So, the same curriculum was there when you joined back? No no it had changed.
It had changed.
It had changed that is why in fact,
I started saying for that reason only they had changed quite a bit
it has become a 4-year program.
So, something had to go.
So, what went was this emphasis on engineering.
So, drawing had been reduced,
we I mean for everybody there are 4 courses on drawing
it became 2 by the time I came here.
And finally, of course, it became only one and also
the emphasis on workshop etcetera reduced quite a bit.
We went through a system
where every alternate week was a workshop week
that was not there anymore.
I of course, number of students also increased quite a bit.
See when we were studying alright,
so, the every batch had about 200 students or so,
if you put 5 about 1000 undergraduate students
another 400-500 PG students that is it, about 1500 or so.
Today you know is almost 5 times 6 times larger size.
So, faculty size also has increased
and it has become more research oriented.
So, with all that change the those changes were starting already
by the time I returned to IIT Madras.
So, your early experiences with with your colleagues
after you joined IIT Madras.
It was like a homecoming for me alright, see in institute Because.
Where you have studied there is always a special relationship,
I mean whether you like it or not it is there
alright every hostel that you were in every laboratory
that you have been so and also the professors
with whom you have studied
I mean those who have taught you and so on.
So, it was like a homecoming for me.
And in fact, that is exactly how the senior professors treated me
that you know our own student has come back something like that.
So, but the unfortunate part was that some of the
people who taught me
positionally still had not got promotion and so on.
So, the all of that is because of this inbreeding problem,
which of course, over a period of time probably
my teacher Professor Natarajan became the director,
I do not know by the time his directorship was almost
this problem is completely eliminated. Solved.
Eliminated, solved.
It was indeed a problem.
See the trouble is that once a person is joined
now, he is your faculty you have to take care of
that person’s promotion and so on.
So, that was a problem.
So, coming to teaching, you are a crowd puller
for in terms of teaching and research at IIT Kanpur.
So, when did that magic start in IIT Madras?
I think you are being very kind to me,
anyway as I already mentioned earlier,
they I think as far as students are concerned,
you should be concerned with their progress
whether it is you know in coursework or in research,
you know if you show concern and then work with them,
and then that itself will that is a magic really, alright.
So, all the PhD student MS students have worked with me
have come only with that kind of a thing that
see that there is a general tendency in our Indian society
that the students look up to the teacher as almost like father
means you know Acharya Devo Bhava.
So, that is kind of thing is there in the culture.
So, if you really work with them very closely
and then be concerned about their progress,
I think that itself is good enough.
So.
You may even scold them for not doing something alright,
but still they take it in stride that is not a problem.
I really think that you have to be concerned you have to be,
about their progress and be with them that is important.
And. Especially for research students it is very important
that you closely work with them.
Even in teaching, you are well regarded as a
very passionate and excellent teacher.
So, what is the you know can you share the trade secret in the,
for the younger generation? See we are in teaching it is it is a profession that
I have liked and I have joined with interests.
So, somebody you know comes to you and ask you doubt etcetera,
you have to be patient and then explain to them. Be accommodative that is the.
And sometimes we may not know the answer also,
let us say ok you come later we will discuss it.
So, give time and then discuss.
I think that is good enough that is the magic.
Thank you.
So, you besides teaching and research
your other roles in IIT,
I will go to the profession little later,
but your like the corporate roles
that you handled in IIT Madras, can you…
Look, I can name a few say.
The office of alumni affairs was started,
I think it around 1995 or so, or ’96,
I do not remember exactly when
Professor Natarajan was the Director at that time, it
So, that was when the alumni contributions
started coming in a big way.
So, then it was it felt necessary to start an office.
So, he asked me to be the advisor for it
and I was the first advisor for the Alumni Affairs Office.
See there are two things there is alumni association
which is association of alumni alright,
of course, IIT has given place for the alumni
you know near the hostel zone
where they it will they will conduct their affairs.
So, IIT will not in any way interfere with that,
but for all getting all the official things done,
it was felt necessary to have a separate Alumni Affairs Office.
So, it was started.
In fact, Professor Nagarajan has played a great role in that one
so, but the office was first started and then I was the first.
So, you were the first core team in that.
I must mention here that Mr. Varadharajan who is also an alumnus.
Rajan.
Raj Varadharajan yeah,
he was one of the earliest batches of Mechanical Engineering student,
he did a great job that we were able to,
we used all kinds of innovative methods to trace alumni,
what was the last address available send
somebody to go and checkup and so on.
So, and we were able to track 50-60 percent of
all the alumni almost in one go,
then from one person you will get to know another person etcetera.
And that was also kind of left in a free manner
so that each group will you know within themselves
they will interact and get all the names so.
So, meanwhile all this Facebook and things also picked up
probably that helped a little bit.
Right, right. Right.
So, alumni affairs was one of the
earliest things that I had worked with then yeah.
GATE the experience.
GATE experience yeah that is right.
GATE also, see there was a feeling in me that
we cannot blame about students not being good at.
So, we had to be part of it to really select good students.
So, the GATE exam etcetera is really the tool to see to it
that you know good students are selected.
So, for 3 years I was GATE chairman, vice chairman etcetera I,
and that was also an experience where I could meet
a faculty from other institutions and so on.
So, the network among IITs,
so, that was something I should say there was a gain
from although it took lot of time,
but still the gain was that
we could meet people from other IITs as well.
So, then the last one was this GIAN,
where you know it is a global initiative for academic networking
that is another one for many
you know professors from abroad or.
So, you you were one of the founding
members in the team that initiated the GIAN program?
More or less and before we there was Professor Chandrashekar,
but that was just starting,
and so, most of this paid work had to be done.
So, almost 5-6 years I have been there, and that office is now
you know functioning very well.
Because you had to formalize everything.
See the thing is that, initially when it was started,
it was all on the basis of you know
through E-mail you communicate and.
So, now there is a website, so, every things are all sort of well
Set in place. Formulated yeah.
And another important thing is your HOD role
as Head of the Department for 3 years.
So those experiences. To tell you the truth, you know,
I was Professor Bhaskar asked me will you take up this position.
I was a little skeptical.
Because, generally you know the Institute know
different departments have different kind of image.
The image of Mechanical Engineering,
whether it is a kind of status quo department that
we will not accept any new change.
What is wrong with the things that is already existing.
Generally, that you see is a kind of response even in senate and so on.
So, I felt that you know,
there may be lot of resistance
in the department that was not the case.
In fact, the very good thing about IIT Madras is that people respect the chair.
So and if you are in the chair
and you sort of guide things and
enormous amount of cooperation is there, and I really
although it took a lot of time,
I did enjoy my you know,
stint as the Head of the Department
and I must really say here on record that you know
a lot of very very good cooperation was there from all colleagues,
slowly, slowly we were able to change few things.
One of the problems that people talked about
regarding IIT Madras was that all things were in silos.
So, Heat Transfer Laboratory means now that
faculty will not interact with another laboratory and so on,
so that we wanted to come out of that.
Although we initiated that, I think by now more or less,
you know, that sort of strictly within the laboratory kind of culture is gone.
So, some sort of opening up.
Opening up opening up.
Type of you know, activity that you promoted.
So that was one thing that was started.
And also slowly slowly modernizing the laboratories etcetera,
certain things were started.
So, like particularly in manufacturing.
So…ah through a fest grant,
we were able to get some good equipment.
And you also helped a lot of other agencies
during that time if I can recall,
the you know the HRNC Ministry of Tamil Nadu some you know I
No, see they wanted some help in mechanical equipment.
So the ropeway, etcetera.
So ok, the Head of the Department of Mechanical Engineering in IIT Madras
means there is something they think, you know
can be a member there so
So, the I mean the formal letters that are sent to HODs,
I think you took it very seriously and ended up solving their problem.
No no no it is coming from government.
Government. So, see whenever there is a request from government.
So I try to.
So, has that, you know exercise improved in the
you know the people, the transit of people across the hill or?
Yeah, see rope way is not it is a business which,
not too many players.
And within India, they are that
they are very economical, but technically were not so sound,
I mean lot of repair and all will come.
So, the Palani temple was interested in some
international collaboration and so on.
So we were in the committee and that was completed.
So it will it will be like a transformation as far as
these places of worship are concerned,
like Sholinghur and Palani and all.
So, those also I recollect that you know, you contributed as HOD.
Now you have made humongous contributions to
in projects pertaining to ISRO, DRDO, IGCAR, ARDB.
So, I I think a separate video may be required for those experiences,
but these are very important, some are very important. No no what I would say is that
my shift from Kanpur to Madras, one benefit was that see
unfortunately Kanpur, neighboring anywhere nearby,
you don’t find any major industry or research laboratory or any such thing,
whereas, Chennai fortunately is located in such a place
where such collaborations are possible.
So, we have you know the Satish Dhawan the very nearby, like that.
So, I think I had even before I came and joined here,
already collaborations were going on,
Professor Natarajan introduced me to some of these.
And I found that see, in any IIT,
you can say that students are the wealth of the institution
for an educational institution.
Undergraduate level ok you get the best in the country.
Similarly, masters and PhD the best
PG students you get in an IIT.
Faculty are also the wealth of the institution, right.
So beyond the students; undergraduate, PG students, etcetera,
what else can the faculty do is also another thing to look at.
And I I found that there are a lot of opportunities,
being in IIT Madras to interact with all these aerospace industries,
defense industries, so on and so forth.
So, it was out of my interest that I took part in them.
I must say I was fortunate that in one or two cases
we were able to make some contributions as well.
So, any important projects you want to share?
See for a cryogenic engine no.
So cryogenic engine one of the things that
needs to be done is to test it on ground.
ISRO has a practice of testing everything before they send it as
put it in space, they will test it.
So, testing the cryogenic engine
required a very very low vacuum environment,
and especially for a rocket engines giving out the plumes,
creating that vacuum environment is very difficult.
So it is possible to use the plume itself to to the evacuation.
So, such a system was designed and
so we did lot of simulations for that.
And side by side they were doing the experimental verification,
and it was successfully installed.
I would say that is one of the close collaborations that we have done.
Similarly, for IGCAR for the Fast Breeder Reactor
so we have done lot of simulations, and those simulations were
it was still, even now Fast Breeder has not been finally,
fully commissioned, but it is very very close to commissioning,
and a lot of subsystem analysis and design we have done for them.
That is also another important
You know all of those are possible because of being in Madras,
where we are close to IGCAR we are close to the space institutions.
So, it was it was an opportunity,
I must say that I was fortunate to participate in them and
So, you would have
More than anything else it was education for me, alright
enjoyed working on these projects. Learning and
Yeah. Contributing and learning.
Contributing is a matter of luck
sometimes you know what you do,
works out sometimes it does not work out so
No from people who we talked to, from these agencies they are
they seem to be very very you know
much benefited from your contributions.
So, other things like DRDO you were
besides this research projects,
I think you were instrumental in their entrance test.
Yeah, actually during when we were in the GATE team.
So, the they came to us,
in Delhi they have what is called RAC Recruitment and.
Assessment Centre.
So, somehow they became friends
and they wanted us to conduct their exam selection exam,
scientist selection exam.
So, two times we did.
They were very impressed with because,
in GATE you know, GATE is a well-oiled machine.
So, the office, they know how to handle big exams and you know.
So, we conducted again,
it is an all-India level examination we conducted for them.
So, you set up a paradigm shift for DRDO.
No no they were happy with our
see we GATE officers already you know
fully equipped to handle any major examination.
From a fully interview based they went on (Refer Time: 42:33)?
First conduct an exam, select shortlist from the examination,
and then conduct interview.
It was the first batch I think you sent me also.
Yeah, yeah.
As one of the
Correct.
What is called institute representatives.
Any way. So, that was
see they needed our help and we were in a position to do it,
so it is fine and our whole team was supportive, you know it is fine.
So, some some of these projects
or these technological outcomes that you still you know
can remember and you are very very satisfied, any?
Mean for outside
For outside agencies or anything that you know,
immediately you want to share?
Yeah. I think for ISRO we have done quite for Besides the hack facility.
I know I know.
Besides that, see the there is a area called you know hypersonic
Scramjet.
Scramjet, scramjet machine, where
they again needed our help for simulation,
and we did simulation for them.
Unfortunately that configuration, was not
you know it won’t be successful.
Based on that prediction they changed it,
and by that time they also learned how to do the simulation and so on.
So they were able to do local
they developed expertise for that.
And interestingly enough, you know their simulations,
which were done earlier, coincided exactly with actual tests.
So, there was
That was an LPSC?
I think LPSC, VSSC together.
Together.
And so, I was in the review committee and so on
as one of the members, and they presented that
as a success that they were able to predict the performance
and then actually measure it during then.
So, in-flight experiment.
So India is one of the few countries
which has achieved this supersonic combustion technology.
So, I am happy that we could also play a small role in that one.
Yeah, you were also part of allot of review committees.
Review committees.
For ISRO and DRDO, so Right correct so.
So the review committee, this one came for discussion
and we saw that it was possible.
I mean both for ongoing projects,
as well as for a failure analysis also. Yeah.
So, I remember your visits to these places.
So, now can you compare the present lab infrastructure and how
whether it has gone the way that you would have wanted to develop.
See what has happened is some of the changes that happen
are forced on us because of international changes, right.
So, whatever you take,
whether it is computer simulation or laboratory work,
if it is lab work you know, they have laser diagnostic tools,
which are very very expensive and so on.
And similarly, if it is computer work, people have
you know parallel computers or you know
which is thousands of you know nodes and things like that.
So, you are for sending a good paper,
you are depending on these kind of facilities.
So, in our Indian see it is possible only if we make a central facility
that is available for people and,
so, I think wherever possible we have created such central facilities,
and some of the less expensive ones,
where each laboratory can afford
and if you are going to use it you know for a longtime,
so, you want something even for a
small group you want some facility.
I think lot of, ah you know
very sophisticated instruments have been acquired
in different laboratories of IIT,
and they all come down in size.
Where where we used to have huge,
you know turbo machinery and huge boiler
and condenser are replaced by small electronic equipment. Tabletop.
Tabletop equipment and so on.
This is a change that is inevitable.
So, this Because it has happened internationally.
And if you have to compete with them
and if you have to publish good papers you also have to have.
Whether you have it individually in your laboratory or you know,
if there is a central facility which is containing this, it is
you have to have somehow.
So, I think both ways there are central facilities
which are created as part of some larger project
like this NCCRD etcetera or even solar hub and many places
even the individual laboratories also are having you know
better equipment now than what was there early
in most sophisticated equipment now.
So, because of and, side by side,
the number of students taken for PhD, MS of ours increased.
So, we are no more an undergraduate you know, institution.
But more so we are a postgraduate institution.
More number of Postgraduate students are there Research students.
Research students are there.
I think that transformation has taken place,
I would say right in front of my eyes.
You know when I joined here it was still you know
more in terms of the undergraduate teaching.
So, from that more and more PhD students
encouraging more PhD students
and developing the laboratory facilities etcetera have happened.
So, that is a change that I see since the time I joined IIT Madras to now
lot of a ground has been covered.
So, you founded the NCCRD
No no government gave money we are all instrumental.
Not that PI of the project, NCCRD project
Somebody gave money, we spent that’s it.
So, can you, you know trace the trace the developments behind?
See in 2001 there was ah I think in Bangalore
they conducted this ISABE
I think International Society for Air Breathing Engines. Air Breathing Engines.
For which many many scientists were invited,
and at that time there was a very
strong interest was expressed by the aerospace research community
that we don’t have good lab facilities,
we do not have you know,
for developing our own you know,
the engines and so on we need such facilities we do not have it.
So an equivalent of you know what you find in US and so on.
So, we must have some national laboratory.
So, this theme was reflected by many many people in many places.
And so, everybody said we must set up some national laboratory.
And I think it was taken up little more seriously I mean
for any idea to germinate and then grow it takes time.
In 2001 this idea was mooted,
and then it took almost 10 years or so, to take it
for it to take little more this thing, serious kind of a shape.
And then I think government conduct conducted some kind of survey,
of if we have to do combustion and related research
how many institutions have the
Willingness.
Not only willingness, the inherent strength.
Ok.
So, they found that IISc Bangalore and IIT Madras are two institutions
which have already existing strength.
So based on that the government decided to provide
something like 90 crore kind of support to get the
best laser diagnostic equipment and so on.
So, the (Refer Time: 49:48) laboratories,
NCCRD they set up at Bangalore and Chennai.
And solar hub can you briefly trace the development of that project.
Yeah, again you know you know see
I would say that even the last one decade or so,
there has been a general feeling that
hydrocarbon-based energy conversion is very polluting.
So, we should go more and more for renewable energy and so on.
So, and India is so, blessed with a lot of
you know solar energy availability throughout the year.
So, there was a proposal from DSC that the IIT should look at this.
So, there was something called Pan IIT solar group was formed
again about 7-8 years back.
And then, under that, solar thermal was one of the ideas,
and then IIT Madras was thought of as a place to do that.
And I must say that Professor Ananth
actually when we went for support for his NCCRD he said
No, no you also have to take up solar energy.
I said, Sir I do not even know the spelling of solar energy, he said
No, no no don’t tell me all that
I am handling two three institutions. Yeah. You told this story.
During your felicitation conference. Yeah. So, he said, You have to take it up,
if you want support for NCCRD you have to take up solar energy.
Ok fine, took it and then I am really enjoying that you know involvement.
Yeah, it is a major
And so, we have been able to set up plants.
What is the megawatt that?
No, the one that is being set up now is not only for power.
Power which is about 100 kilowatt.
Ok.
But we also want to do be the thermal can do other things as well.
So, you can produce good water,
you can produce cold storage etcetera.
So, we are also trying. It is an integrated
In a kind of rural environment, they are trying to do.
Yeah, we, We we visited as part of the Project is almost
MEA visit in 2000. From that now more development has taken place.
So maybe in another few more months that project will be completed.
So now, coming to this human relations,
what do you see about the human relations that is
among the faculty as well as the student-faculty relations.
See I think that there is scope for both
collaboration, and as well as competition.
I think life is generally like that even among animals
there is competition there is cooperation.
So, at the lower-level competition is ok, alright,
but as you mature more and more it should be a cooperation
that is what is good for everybody.
So, faculty you know what happens is that
I am more intelligent than you I am more accomplished than you
that kind of feeling, ego.
Certain things getting in the way. Is a problem, and that,
if it you know persists for quite some time it can create problem.
I think that you know early in your career you want to compete
and you want to do better than your neighbor, ok that is
I don’t think that is any problem as such
so long as it does not become very serious and
So, but are things improving?
Are they on the right track now?
By and large ok, see, where there are human beings
there will be conflicts, you cannot help it,
but I would say that it is the role of the
Head of the Department, role of the
You know, whoever is the head for the division should take care of it.
If it is done, many things can be done smoothly and there is no
And the faculty-student relations, how is that evolving?
See the one problem that we have is
I think the number of students has increased tremendously,
both for the teaching courses as well as for the research courses.
And I do not know whether we have the right sizing of
you know, faculty sizes see as well as you know
the facilities and hostels from every point of view.
I think many conflicts are coming from that,
mainly I think it has to be rightly sized alright.
And maybe if now every faculty member is guiding
among 10, 10 PhD students at the same time,
and that is putting a lot of pressure on them.
So maybe we should have some post doc or some such thing to help
the but how to come out with a system
which will work well is something that has to be seen.
But yeah, you were one of the busiest professors of the Institute,
how did you manage so many activities, trips
and other contributions in the middle of your teaching, research?
Not knowingly.
Student guidance.
Not knowingly it just happened. Really a miracle.
It just happened. I think I am lucky,
blessed I can’t say anything more than that, it was not
So maybe the credit goes to madam also Padmavathi Madam.
She definitely deserves lot of credit.
So yeah, any I mean any this thing about
No, no, okay. How she managed the, you know On serious note,
on serious note, I would like to say that this is where collaboration helps.
In any research work you are not at your best all the time.
There are times when you feel great and then you can really
you know overnight you can solve a problem.
But there are times or months together nothing happens,
at that time we had a collaborator maybe the
collaborator will have some phase difference
and that person can put in energy and move the problem forward.
So, that helps, I think to me I would say that
apart from individual work result,
you should also do collaborative work with other people,
with likeminded people, and that
in that way you can do a lot of multitasking otherwise, it is difficult.
And the role of Padmavathi madam I think you have not mentioned.
Yeah, yeah, that. That that is multi-dimensional. You know she deserves lot of credit.
So, yeah you require another two interviews
to cover that also. Cover that also
because yeah, she was able to handle all your
external and within the institute commitments.
She is herself is also busy,
she is also involved in She herself yeah being a principal, vice principal,
I think she handled that so well,
to keep you with your schedule.
So, thank you very much.
Thank you.
It was very nice. Yeah, yeah.
Speaking to you and getting all your inputs.
Thank you.
Thank you.
ok.
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