On behalf of a Heritage Centre,

let me welcome Professor Radhakrishnan

for this Oral History programme.

And Professor Radhakrishnan. Yeah.

Thank you for coming here.

Thanks.

Let us now start from the day one.

You landed here on this campus,

was it this campus or a campus in the neighborhood?

Do you recall sir?

I came and joined this place on 8th August 1964

and I came to this campus only because by that time,

many of the departments have already started functioning here and

quarters have started coming up

and the department was there in the IC engines laboratory

which is presently the one which has this lab.

So, I came first to the department,

introduced myself saying that

I have got an appointment here

and I am joining the department

and Professor R. G. Narayanamurthy

was the head of the department at that time.

So, from that point, I went to the administration

which was in the civil engineering block.

And I joined or rather gave all the papers and then,

formal joining report was also given,

that was the starting point.

At that time, there was no accommodation per se for me

because you know things were coming up.

So, I stayed with Professor Vaidyanathan at that time

for about 5 days. In the guest house?

No, in his own flat.

Ok. Because he was alone at that time so,

his wife was away at that point of time.

After that one, after 7 days you know,

I had to move out because it doesn’t look nice to

stay with a person having a family for a long time

so, I requested that I may have an accommodation

somewhere in the campus because

I was not keen to stay outside

because hardly anything was there away outside.

So, I went and met the registrar who was Natarajan,

R. Natarajan at that time

and requested whether I can be have any accommodation here.

Then, he thought for a while and said yes

we can give you a hostel room

and I was allotted one at Ganga hostel at that time. Ganga.

That just it has been built up hardly anything was there

except that the building and I mean

the bricks and other things were lying around it.

So, I moved to that place with lot of mosquitoes

there and it was just coming up and that was a horrible

experience to stay in a just a newly built up hostel.

There I continued I think about one and a half months or something like that.

By that time, the Taramani House was ready and

fortunately, for many of the young bachelor faculty members,

it was decided that they can be allotted a room there

and the name of Taramani House was not there at that point of time

and it was called Officer’s Hostel.

The Taramani House name came because thus registrar

suggested that you know we have the Taramani village

from where this institute

came or rather that part of the institute came from that one

so, it will be appropriate to name it as Taramani House.

That’s how Taramani house came into existence.

So, we stayed there, that was my first. Was there any messing facility

or you had to cook on your own?

The earlier times there was no messing facility,

we used to go to the Narmada or Tapti and then, have it. Oh, ok hostel mess.

Hostel mess and the that was there,

but then, we insisted saying that there should be about

I think about 15 people were there, faculty members were there

and the rest of the rooms were used as guest rooms.

So, we had a one wing or something like allotted for us

and we requested that there should be some

boarding and lodging arrangement should be there in that place.

So, it was accepted and a cook was also

allotted and with one or two servers

and that kitchen was serving only for about 15 people

at that point of time.

So, that was the initial stages of that.

Do you remember the director who was

there at that time when you joined was it? Yeah.

Professor Sengupta or Professor Rao. Yeah, it was Sengupta

who was there at that time because

in fact, you know I think I at that time,

you know it was easy to meet the

director because hardly there were not

many people around the campus who were in the academic side.

So, I also met him earlier and then, because

I came without an interview here

because I was a technical teacher trainee at Kharagpur IIT.

So, he said of course, I got the

appointment order from the IIT Madras,

signed by the registrar and requesting that you know

you can come and join and that is why I came here.

But then, I was given a temporary appointment at that time

because it was not a regular appointment through an interview.

So, they said that you will have to face the interview

within about 4 months time.

So, the I was interviewed in December. At that time the

Board of Governor chairman of the Board of Governor was the

HAL chairman.

So, the interviews were conducted in the HAL Bangalore, Bangalore. HAL complex.

So, I remember one evening there was the only the

Madras Bangalore Mail was there so, you

take that one in the early morning you reach there

and then, you had to freshen up, you know there was no

hotel require I mean there was nothing you know for the

salary, we got you know you wouldn’t have been able to afford

to any good place. Stay in any hotel

so. So, we went to a I went to a small place

where you know I had to have a bath and then,

took a bus to the HAL complex

and the interview was conducted.

Registrar was there if I remember correctly

of course, director the director was there. R. G. Narayana Murthy.

R. G. Narayana Murthy was there,

A. Ramachandran was there, I don’t know where. A. HAL.

A. Ramachandran. A. Ramachandran as an expert.

Oh, I see. And the chairman was there;

I think these were the 5 yeah.

Then, of course, other than that one,

the questions were simple because

one question I remember, I remember all the questions

because I could answer it easily. First interview.

Easily. So, thereby the first question was you know

if I take a sheet metal and draw,

what will be the deformation coming at the bottom?

So, can you tell me? That was the done,

I mean that question was asked by the chairman

because he is in the HAL and. HAL.

So, I said nothing is going to happen,

you can put a grid and draw it and

see that the grid remains there

so, that was through.

Then, A. Ramachandran asked me can you tell me

how a pneumatic gauge works?

It was easy for me because I have been teaching metrology

right from the start of my joining here,

next day was after two days I started teaching that.

So, that also was easy for me.

So, thereby after that one, there was no other questions

I remember and then, when I came back here,

Narayana Murthy congratulated me

and said that you did a very good job.

So, that was the happy moment in my life.

So, was the metrology lab established at that time or. No, at that time there was no metrology lab,

it was done in the IC engines lab.

But you had. No, the history of my getting into the metrology is a

very interesting anecdote because

no one wanted to take metrology

as a subject because it was there,

it was a mistake in the curriculum because in German universities

they have got a subject called MES technique,

what they meant was overall measurements you know.

Pressure measurement everything all the things, All kind of things.

but unfortunately that terminology was

translated as metrology of course, mean no harm in done, but

it was confined to metrological part of it

namely the length measurement and associated one

and this was handled by Professor S. Ramani,

who was in the IC engines lab.

And because he was connected with the MIT earlier,

they had a instrumentation area there so,

he was allotted the metrology and the metrology. Is the same Professor Ramani

who became NANO? Yeah, NIT

no, NIIT.

NITIE Bombay. NITIE Bombay. Ok.

So, he was looking for somebody who can be handed over this stuff.

So, I when I joined and knew that you know I am in the area of

I mean at that time it is called production engineering,

he said why don’t you take it up.

So, I mean I mean youngster who was coming and a

new recruit here,

didn’t have much of a choice rather than saying that ok,

I will do it and I started getting into the lab.

Then naturally, once you get into the lab

you had to take the classes so,

classes were also allotted to me.

So, I started right from 64 maybe in the second semester

no, 64 little bit of classes were taken,

but in the next semester, I took tool design and other things.

It was interesting, and the students were very very

Can you remember how many students are there

in your class at that time?

It was about 45 or something like that, 45.

it was a very compact class,

and they were very very brilliant you know Sidhu,

Gurcharan Singh Sidhu was the

gold medalist was a student there

and. Now, our class strength are 180.

Yeah, I know it is I know I grew with that numbers.

So, effectively they had a very good rapport with the

faculty and I enjoyed teaching.

Although, you know I was not quite comfortable in the very beginning,

I should frankly say that you know I had to read

a little bit of stuff before coming to the class

and there were not many

good textbooks or anything like that of course,

the metrology itself was primitive at that time.

So, it was very difficult to convince somebody

that this is a very important part of engineering because

the technology was such a low-level,

but it went on and I just built up my

career out of that one so, there was no difficulty.

So, now, looking back you think that is a very very good

step taken to start with the metrology. Yeah, I mean.

Looking before looking back you know you should say that you know

when I took up this area,

I mean it was a I mean a number of incident took place you know

how I got stuck into that area.

I took a class, that is one thing,

but I was not very clear about

whether I will continue in that area forever.

So, at that point of time, there was a requirement

that you should also do your Ph.D. work here.

Because there was no other option

other than doing the Ph.D. here itself.

So, I had to register and then, I thought

I will register at that point of time, but there was

in the very beginning, there was no one there.

I joined, after Professor Vaidyanathan was there,

I mean he was the first one joined the department of

the present area of manufacturing.

So, he was there, the second one was me.

And Professor Venkatesh who was there for a period of time,

he joined after me, only after about 4 or 5 or 8

I don’t remember you know in any case it was after me.

So, after he joined, he was the only person with a doctoral degree.

So, he asked whether you are interested in I mean

we had a conversation and then, I said I will

take up a topic for my doctoral work under you.

And there were not many people who are doing Ph.D. in fact,

actually I was a second one to register for Ph.D. here,

second or third and the registration took place

in the office of the director

and there was no coursework requirement

because there were not many courses

at that time the PG was not there.

So, it was not that strict

saying that you have to have these many. So, director himself will chair

those meetings those days Yeah,

he was chairing and then two. Now, we have deans.

Yeah, deans and then, gradually everything

came down to department level or so. Yeah.

So, that was the and then, I registered for the Ph.D.,

but that wasn’t metal cutting area.

Then, when I went to Germany in 1967,

there were other issues which came up so.

And I exchange programme no was this so.

First that is another interesting one because you know

after joining here, I was there for about two and a

half years I mean not doing much in research

also just I started working on it,

then moulding some tools and other things.

To get a mould, you know it was not easy

so, there was some geology,

I remember his name is Muttiah or somebody,

who was in Civil Engineering

and he had a moulding machine

with polymers and I mean the plastic ones

because they used to mould stones

and then, polish it out that was the only thing which were very.

So, if I want to study the cutting tool you know. Microstructure.

Microstructure or even the tool

where and other things you had to mould it and see with the microscope

so, I went there and then started

moulding certain small things and other,

these were going on.

Meantime, the second Indo-German

Agreement was signed by the department I mean

the institute as well as the German authorities

and all of a sudden I think by that time,

you know we had one German professor with us

Professor Lohr he joined. Professor Lohr,

if I am correct machine tool expert. Machine tool.

He joined some time in 66 I think,

he came in 66 June or somewhere and then, he was there.

So, those who were connected with the German professors,

the labs, they were asked to send the names of people

who can be considered for selection to Germany to do

research or further studies.

So, from our department, myself and

Vaidyanathan were selected

and other departments I don’t remember

and one Saturday or Sunday

morning, we were asked to come suddenly, I mean it was all

of a sudden it came up and

we were asked to come for a interview and it was conducted in the

humanities and sciences block

and all the German professor who were there at that time

maybe about 8 or 9 people were around addressing

and the I mean the director and

the registrar were there.

At that time the registrar was Sethunathan.

Oh. By that time. By that time Natarajan retired.

Natarajan retired and Sethunathan had joined

just he joined I think at that time.

So, there you know the questions asked you know why are you

going and have you started registered for this you know

and all these things were there

so, I was comfortable with that one

because I had already registered and even

Vaidyanathan had also registered so,

there is no question of I mean denying anyone.

And I used to play tennis at that time also so,

there was a Professor Stahl

yeah, Stahl in IC engines,

he used to come and then play also with me I mean with others.

Then, he asked you know do can you tell me the name of a German

a tennis player who is doing very well?

I couldn’t remember that one at that point of time.

So, he clarified that one, that is the one which I remember now.

Then, the interview was over and then,

after the interview what happened I think

that day was Tamil New Year’s Day or Vishu or something like that.

So, Vaidyanathan told me why don’t you come home and have lunch.

So, we went there and had lunch and then,

I came back to the Taramani House and stayed on.

The next day morning immediately, there was a

call from the registrar’s office

saying that you know you have to give your all the details for

further processing of your application and a note was

saying stated gave I don’t I think it still

it is lying in my file somewhere

saying that you have been selected for German

Exchange program. Exchange program.

And tomorrow, you have to give all the details

so that the passport and all things can be arranged.

Unfortunately, Vaidyanathan was not selected,

I was selected and it was a

dilemma for me you know how it happened I don’t know,

but I was selected so,

I put it up that was about April end or something like this.

Then, things moved and then, I gave all the things

and it started like this and then, I went.

In 65 or 66? 7.

67. 67 August.

Actually, this was in 67 April

that is and then, I the

procedure was over by about April end or May.

By the time, the metrology lab was established in the

place where it is right now, or it was. Yes,

that is a again interesting you know when I joined here that was the

a lab of course, both the labs were there namely the

machine tool lab and the metrology lab were

buildings were there, both were totally empty,

nothing absolutely nothing and in the machine tool lab,

there were big cases of

machines just not opened out.

They were all just lying at different places.

That must have come in the first phase of German aid.

No, this one that is that it has nothing to do with the phase,

but you know the original starting point itself, it was there. Starting point.

Exchange program was a second phase.

So, the in the first phase a lot of equipment came.

In fact, metrology also had all of equipment,

but they were stored in a air conditioned single room

because air conditioner was very

very rare at that point of time and then,

there was one single room which was air conditioned

in which all the metrology equipment’s were also kept. End up.

But dumped and metrology lab just a plain structure.

So, one good thing I could do was that

I learned how to erect machine tools.

Opened out everything so, there were

lot of things you know which was going on how to

put the foundation bolts, keep them there and then, cure them,

all those things that level the machines.

So, these things were something which you wouldn’t have

learned out of your academic work.

So, that was a learning experience which I enjoyed

and which did definitely gave me an advantage

in the sense you know I could explain things

in more clear terms because I have experienced it.

As far as metrology was concerned, it was an empty this thing

and no one was responsible at that time because of

the fact that I was taking metrology, I was being asked to

start the work by taking some of the

equipment which were lying there and initiate the lab.

There were no table so, first thing is to

order for tables and the tables were only made

in our own workshop.

So, it took some time, but you got a few tables

and stools were given and

once those tables came,

we opened out that place and get got all those few equipment

and their booklets connected with all these things

so, started reading because we never saw these equipments

in reality anywhere else at that point of time.

One thing I should say that the Germans supplied the best

available stuff there which was again

seen in their own institutions.

There was nothing called a low-level technology

being transferred, it was all

Whatever they had they. on par with them

and thereby, what we got is, what is was there

when I went there I could see the same thing

there and there was no difference.

So, I started on I mean opening these packets,

learning what are the things to be done

and adjusting and then, putting it.

Even now, I remember there was one person called

Chandramouli at that time,

who was an STA senior technical assistant.

Me and Chandramouli used to be connected with the metrology lab.

Professor Vaidyanathan and Venkatesh were

in the other place. Machine tool lab. Machine tool lab.

So, both of us used to come in the on Saturday,

Sundays and other thing because that was

only time when we can erect this machine.

I remember the profile projector getting

into this and fixing up the mirror and things underneath

and then, adjusting all the lenses and other things

so, it was a good experience.

So, by the time, Professor Prithviraj

and other people have joined the department? Prithviraj was there much earlier, Prithviraj.

So, do you have a group photo of this you know?

Yeah, that you know when it

so happened that you know in 1965,

I joined in 64

that batch was there 64 and 65 they passed out

so, in I think April or somewhere I am not very sure the month,

though I didn’t teach that group because it they were seniors,

I was invited as a member and we had a group photo which

perhaps. Let us have a look at it,

probably you can, recollect much more. Yeah.

This is a group photo of the mechanical engineering department

with the students in 1965.

You can see that there are number of

German professor s sitting there each one heading a particular lab.

I can easily remember.

It is a entire Mechanical Engineering Department.

It is a entire Mechanical Engineering Department. But not all the students

are here 45. A few of them are not there.

Because the 45 was the later ones. Ok.

This is the senior, whom I taught is about 45,

but these were initial. Much ahead of them. Yeah,

I think this is the second batch or something like that. Right.

So, thereby you know the numbers were

very much little. Can you tell the central figures are with the tie?

Tie is the I mean he is the I mean he was the.

Director. Director at that time. Professor Sengupta?

Sengupta and Natarajan on his left side. Ok.

And Professor R. G. Narayanamurthy on his right side.

And if I take from the other end,

his name is was Goetz who was in the foundry

and Professor Venkatesh, then Ebert who was in the

In the workshop. workshop,

then Professor Heitland combust engine lab,

Professor Scheer turbo machines.

Of course. Then, coming to this side, Professor Stahl IC engines,

Professor Lutz thermal heat transfer,

Professor M. C. Gupta. Who was in the combustion lab. Combustion.

Then, Sohre I think is in the electrical shop

and last one is Hassenbein who was in the machine tool lab.

He was a very very nice guy who used to,

I remember when we went to Germany,

he came all the way, he was in the Germany at that point of time

in the vacation time

so, he came all the way from his hometown

to the place where we were having language class

and bought some cakes and other things.

So, it was very very.

So, you picked up German language after going there?

No. do you have any. Because of the association with the German

universities earlier itself, there was a tendency in us

to learn German though we didn’t plan it out

like that because we never thought that we are going to

Germany or anything, but you know because Germany

was connected with then some of the literature available

were in German so, there was a tendency for us to do it and

Goethe Institute was there,

Max Mueller Bhavan at that time and it was

in the mount road just opposite TVS .

So, I registered for the course Grundstufe that is the basic one.

First level course. First level,

but I was not a good student in German language,

I passed the first one, the second one you know,

I wrote the examination, passed, but in the

viva or rather oral examination I failed, So.

So, they normally play a tape and ask you to write it no. No,

they ask questions, and you have to answer it in.

Oh, in Germany ok. Yeah, German and I couldn’t answer it

very well with the correct grammar.

So, I can say that one and a half classes,

the first one I completed, the second one partially only I completed. Partially.

And this was a background with which I went for the interview.

So, they were happy that at least you know I could understand

little bit of German and that was an advantage one.

So, that was the thing and at the back side,

the second row, you got all the faculty members

and a few students at the end.

The third one from the right is Professor Lakshminarayan.

Then, I think this is Krishna Murthy,

I don’t know I forgot, then Rayudu is there,

Prithviraj, Padmanabhan who was.

In precision engineering. Padmanabhan, Precision engineering yeah and he joined.

This person I don’t remember,

that the next one is me, then Vaidyanathan,

then Thyagarajan. K. V. T,

K. V. Thyagarajan. K. V. T, Padiyar.

Professor Ramani, this is applied mechanics Subrahmanyam.

And he is, Mallan?

Malan, Govind Mallan. Govind Mallan.

And others are students.

Ok nice, nice to see them.

Yeah. After long time.

So, coming back to this you know I you degree

you got in German, Germany itself or you were?

The idea was to do the research work in Germany

and submit whatever you do for your doctoral programme,

but then, when I went to Germany,

I couldn’t continue with the topic though it was informed to the

professor concerned that I am likely to be working

in this area because he has initiated some work here.

Metal cutting area. Metal cutting and.

Associated. Associated, cut toolware or whatever might be this thing.

So, when I went to the German University for

from which was allotted to me the immediate technology

a Technical University at Braunschweig,

I met that professor who is a very good expert in grinding

of course he is not in metal cutting but grinding.

So, he asked me to come when I was doing my

language programme which was for 3 months,

in between I went and met him.

There was a I mean the distance was about 300 kilometres only

so, I morning I went and then came back in the evening.

So, he I went there and then met him of course,

naturally he talks only in German

so, I could just manage German,

by that time I picked up little bit.

So, with little confidence I could manage

and I could understand him very well,

but expressed my desire

that you know I have done this one, I would like to

continue if possible because it will be easier for me

to complete it within one,

at that time I got it only for one year.

Then, he said you know I don’t have any facilities for these things

you know electron microscope is no not available,

certain things which were required was not available

so, it will be difficult for me to provide you these things.

However, you can work in other areas and

we will discuss with you, you be there,

when you come back, we will discuss.

So, I went back to the language school and then,

came back and after one and a half months

and went back to the institute and discussed with him.

He said you go there and observe the facilities there,

we will discuss because the professor is quite busy there

normally, you know you won’t be able to

meet him as and when you want.

You have to inform, the secretary much earlier maybe one

at least about 3 to 4 days before that.

So, I was told that you know you can

I can spend some time looking at the facilities available

and the facilities available were mostly on

a grinding and woodworking.

Machine metal cutting was not there

except sawing was there.

Then, I was not very sure as to what I can think of,

then I saw that there is a new area which has

come up there, laser machining.

They had a very good set up, ruby laser they got newly one

and they started investigating

and if I remember correctly,

the new year greetings with each lab producers

to be sent to all the people,

they made a photograph of the laser cutting through

a ruby crystal with all the flashes coming red,

one a colour photograph was put

and that was the new year greeting from that the lab.

So that fascinated me

and on the turn of the year in the January beginning,

after the Christmas and other thing holidays,

I met the professor and requested whether I can work on that one.

Ofcourse, that was not possible he said because

we do have our own programmes planned for it,

but if he said you know you can work on some

fixturing of components and other things in the

machine that is you know fixtures and other things.

I was not very keen about that one because I was not

clear as to what could be the outcome out of that one.

At a young age you know, I don’t know

if I am given now perhaps, I would have thought you know

flexible fixturing or whatever might be,

at that time there was no idea about what I could do.

So, I was in a dilemma and first month

that month I didn’t have much to do

other than just go there and sit there and read

something and that was the thing.

Fortunately, Professor Venkatesh came there

and I told him that;

if I am going to be here, I cannot do work on your area

what you are given and I may not be able to do it in the

this field because it is a new one and when I go back,

I don’t know what I can.

So, he was kind enough to say that ok,

have you got any other option?

I said you know there is another professor just next to him,

next to this lab in a measurement area.

His name is Professor Weingraber.

If you can talk to him whether he can take me

it will be nice.

So, he went and met of course,

it was planned that he will be meeting him.

So, at that time, he said so and so has come here,

will it be possible because he finds that

you know there is not much

possibility of working in an area where he has been working there.

Then he said I don’t have any objection

provided the other professor agrees.

And then between them, they discussed and said ok,

this man said this I don’t have absolutely no problem,

you can go and work.

So, that way I changed over to the metrology again.

So, I whatever I was doing here, again I got in some

I mean it is a circumstantial.

Things happened. Happened.

So, I ended up in metrology and again, you know

in metrology, I don’t know what to do.

Professor told me that you know

one I mean after joining that department that lab,

I think the by end of January or something like of 1968,

he took me to the lab and again, showed me all the instruments.

This instrument you can do whatever you want

because no one is working. That is a surface finish machine.

You whatever you want because at the moment,

no one is working so, its free

that is all what he is told me

and then, you know he went back and then,

I sat in a room, they gave me one good thing

about Germany is that if you are joining there,

they will find a place to sit and work.

So, that is the one first condition. One.

For every professor to accept somebody.

If I got a space to make you sit there,

then only I will take you.

There is no question of a student coming and then,

roaming around and not having a place.

So, I ended up there and then, I started working in that place.

So, after coming back, you know you came back in 69?

60 69.

69th and submitted your thesis in here.

Yeah, I came back in 68th October end.

And then, I started writing my thesis during that 68 December to

January or something like and submitted the

thesis by end of January.

You remember your convocation day yeah?

No, I remember the worst incident

which happened just before by Ph.D. viva.

Ph.D. viva was announced,

Professor A. K. D. the external examiner.

Professor Weingraber came here because he was invited,

and he also is a examiner.

Weingraber came all the way from Germany Yeah,

because he there was a visit arranged already.

Right. So, when he came you know it was easier

and the day before the viva,

I another incident is that I got a scooter.

Luna. No, I got a Vespa.

Vespa ok.

After a long time that is you know 68,

I joined in 64

and the condition at that point of time that you will not get a

scooter, you can’t buy a scooter. You have to wait.

You have to register, and government allotment is there.

And one condition for the government allotment is that

you should be staying at least 1.5 kilometers away from your place of work.

So, if you apply for it, you have to give a certification saying that

1.5 kilometers away I am staying.

So, in 65 or something like that, I applied.

When I applied you know the assistant registrar or whatever might be,

he looked in and said no no, this is not

1.5, it is only 1.3 kilometers

so, your application is not accepted

because I was staying at that time in Adyar

that is another story which I have to say why I went out of the campus.

So, I stayed there and they said its only Kasturba Nagar

so, 1.3 kilometers.

I said you know from the gate itself maybe 1.3,

but within that this thing another kilometer is there kilometer.

So, that is not considered because your institute starts at the gate.

So, it is not the place of work

so, thereby you know it was not possible and then, it was rejected

and later on you know once I lost touch with when I came back,

I applied for it and at that time, it was little more liberal.

I got a new scooter and unfortunately, I took that scooter

of course, I got license everything

and went all the way to Mylapore to buy cufflinks

saying that you know I should put full sleeve and

put all the things and then, pretend myself as the I am. For the viva.

viva and I came back,

came back all the way and got into the campus,

I was driving back exactly at the Jalakanteshwara temple,

there is a road crossroad,

P. Sankaran I mean. Electrical Engineering yes. Electrical Engineering,

he was a very he was also in Germany, he came back

so, he was driving the scooter,

he stopped and then wished me and suddenly, he came and hit me.

And I was thrown out and I had a what do you call the dislocation here

and my nose was a little bit. Twisted.

Distorted and there was bruises and all these

and I was in the hospital here.

In the night, I just moved I remember

and the whole thing started got out,

terrible pain. Terrible pain.

Terrible pain and one doesn’t know whether it is a at that

time you know it was not giving any problem so,

people never thought that it is a broken shoulder or anything like that.

So, immediately I was rushed to the Royapettah hospital.

Fortunately, there you know the doctor came and then,

pushed it inside and said there is nothing,

X-ray was taken, and it is alright.

So, I came back again to the hospital.

The next day morning is the I mean maybe about

afternoon or morning, I don’t remember is a viva.

That time I understood many people because

some people said no, no, why can’t you postpone it?

I said no, if I postpone it, it is going to be difficult.

Because Weingraber is not there and they doesn’t.

So, I said you know I will manage because there is no problem

except that you know there are bruises and I may have to put

my hand in sling,

but there were people wanted to

see that you know it doesn’t happen I mean unfortunately, that is it.

Then, what happened was that doctor there

I don’t remember his name,

he said he is fit.

You can go and then, he has no problem except this one.

So, he can go there and. Medically cleared.

Cleared.

So, I came back and then, the next day with a sling,

with bruises here, with I mean a patches and other things. It was a real defence.

I defended myself without because

that that technology part was easy,

but with this one, I couldn’t write on the board,

but then, I put it and tried with the left.

So, that was a good interest interesting one.

So, you received the degree from

Professor Ramachandran. Ramachandran.

This the photograph sir? Yeah,

this the I am taking the certificate.

Who is reading out your name is it?

This is the assistant registrar, Rajagopalan. Rajagopalan ok.

And that is V. M. Radhakrishnan,

who is staying the next. Behind you?

Yeah, he. Ok.

He finished the earlier to me.

I mean earlier means you know he was he did it here

whereas, I did in. The venue you remember sir?

it is. It is open air theatre. Open air theatre, nowadays it is in SAC.

Open air theatre. It is a open air theatre good.

So, after getting your Ph.D.,

was there any change in your you know you said you stayed outside,

you know this is news to us.

Yeah, I was a little rebel at the age of 24-25,

rebel in the sense you know I was little I mean

anyone at that age will be rebellious; rebellious you know,

I calmed down very much and normally, I am not

excited or anything like that, but what happened was you know

the administration was very very dominating at that time.

I mean it went on for a long time you know,

if anything be done, you know it is the they will decide.

Faculty members didn’t have much of a what do you called as a.

Say. Say in any of these things.

This changed only when the deanship came, I could

guarantee that it was the only time when things got changed.

Otherwise, the registrar, assistant registrar,

they were all dominating.

One or two examples I can mention.

First thing is you know about my ouster from Taramani House.

There I mean I told you that professor I mean

the registrar Natarajan retired in 60. And Rajagopalan came.

No, Rajagopalan didn’t take I mean Sethuraman came yeah. Sethuraman.

Because the, the point of retirement they

wanted to have a sendoff to the registrar.

And they at that time, there was no nothing called

the catering or anything like that, you know you have to arrange it

in some place and Taramani House was chosen for that

dinner and other things, party. And

so, director, registrar,

there was a superintending engineer called Y. S. Ramaswamy,

then Professor Sampath and others were there.

And we were staying there

so, naturally, they said you all have to come for the sendoff.

You can’t have a separate dinner here and other things.

There was a much more rebellious person among

us Professor Ganguly, who was in humanities.

He said how can you say that no, it is not, he is not a

a faculty member, he is only a registrar.

Why should all the faculty give a sendoff to a registrar here.

So, I mean at that age, you know you feel you know yes,

yes, that is the right thing you know,

and we said that we will not go

and we will have our own dinner prepared by the same group,

they will also prepare for them, but we will also have it less.

I was also connected with the

mess arrangements in the Taramani House at that time.

So, I was asked to see that you know

our preparations are also made

at the right time and while they were doing it.

So, there was a little confront, it was not a confrontation,

but there was a. Some misunderstanding.

Difference of opinion and it went off without any problem,

but this the director and others didn’t like it.

Ofcourse, nothing happened for about this was I think

December or January or sometime, nothing happened till about April-May.

Just at the fag end of the semester,

once the institute closed, there was a letter to every one

of us staying in Taramani House that the

in I mean I don’t know the title, but whatever might be the authorities

have decided that Taramani House needs a fresh look. Renovation.

Renovation, fresh look and all facilities are going to be

looked in afresh and all people who are staying there

may have to vacate and those who are staying

there can be accommodated in a newly constructed

X-type quarters. There was nothing called X-type, it was the

E1 type the lowest one.

and it was named as X because it if you called E1, it is meant for.

The employee of the. Employees of the I mean of a certain level.

Different different cadre.

So, in order to circumvent that one, it is put a X quarters.

So, many of us said that we are not going to get in there

that only option is to get out so, I got out.

Interesting so, but you came back

you know within a year or so you know. You know I stayed almost for one and half to 2 years there,

by that time, I was a I mean the these things happened.

You know it is strange you know with all these things, I got the German

selection because I had the background of this type.

So, when I went there you know I thought you know

I am going to be doomed here.

But then you know I should appreciate that

Professor Sengupta was realistically because I got a

award for a price at I mean a paper at that time.

Institute my first paper was given the medal for that.

So, I sent a copy of the letter and at that time,

you know if you want to take any money from any source,

you have to get approval. Approval.

So, 250 rupees was the award money.

So, I formally put a letter and then,

perhaps he might have noted down whatever might be the thing,

he was positive and then, he decided to give me

a this scholarship without any

inhibitions of this type.

So, I was surprised.

So, after your doctorate you know, you must

have been promoted to the next level you know normally that's.

No, it was not automatic.

You have to again. No,

it so happened that there was a advertisement by about

January or something, at that time, I didn’t have a Ph.D.,

only thing I came back.

So, they wanted to fill up certain things

so, there was general advertisement for all the departments

and in Mechanical Engineering Department and in our means

group, there was a assistant professors requirement.

So, fortunately it was required that.

Ph.D.

A Ph.D. is required for applying for this.

Fortunately, I could complete my Ph.D. by February,

I think some middle of February or something I completed

and I had the provisional certificate

and this interview took place in April or something like that.

So, you were well in time. Well in time.

So, it was I mean it is a matter of. So, those days only three cadre lecturer,

assistant professor and professor. Yeah,

I mean initially that, but in between it came associate professor. Yeah,

much later much. Not much later,

by the time I was about to be

I mean getting into the I mean see

I took how many 6 years after joining

to get into a assistant professorship.

Mind you that 3 years I had a experience at. The previous.

IIT Kharagpur also so, Kharagpur.

almost. Was it sponsored by IIT Madras?

No, that was Government of India’s scholarship. Scholarship. Yeah,

that was I was selected all India and then, I went there.

So, after that one, I joined this place

and after 6 years, I got the promotion in 1970

and within about 2 or 3 years,

the new cadre was also there associate professor.

So, if at all I could get a promotion

that would be only associate professor at that point of time.

Then, I applied for the Humboldt Fellowship

and I got it in 75, I was in Humboldt for 1 year there in Germany,

came back, then after 1 year only the advertisement for.

Professor. Professors came,

I got in. So, in between if I recollect,

you had three MSs with you at that time in 70. Yeah MS.

Can you recall who are the MS's?

M. S. Selvam and you and I think who is. You had a Fiat car

with the MSS registration so.

Yeah, that is the thing. You sold out that car.

I sold it out to M. S. Selvam.

Oh, I see yeah right.

He wanted that car.

So, I when I said you know I am selling it, he said no,

I would like to buy it and then, I gave it to him. Ok.

So, then in early 70’s, know you also organized an AMTDR

conference if I am correct. Yeah, in 1970,

I organized the first AMTDR conference.

Maybe the first. The, the It was a third conference in the series.

But in IIT Madras, the first one. First one

and the earlier one was in the next earlier one was in IIT Bombay.

So, Venkatesh was there and he said you know we were going to

organize this thing so, you can be the

organizing secretary because I was only one who was

coming back and by the time,

Philip and Vaidyanathan gone to Germany.

So, they were not here so,

I was the only person who was available here

so, I took the responsibility as the organizing secretary.

And it was a very good experience for me

because collecting money from different sources,

then arranging the we did a very good exhibition of machine tools.

Very good exhibition because.

If I remember, I came from College of Engineering, Guindy. Yeah, because you know a live; live.

To see the machines you know it was in Guindy. Yeah, it was a live one

because power was given to this and then,

temporary arrangement were done and about

20 30 machines were exhibited there

and that was a good successful conduction of the AMTDF.

So, if I am correct, you also were JEE chairman in, no 76 77. No, 76 I became a secretary.

Secretary. I didn’t I mean then,

that 77, we were the organizing so, 76 and 77, I was the secretary.

So, in 1977 IIT Madras was the organizing institute

so, naturally, all the responsibility was there with I mean with us

and the chairman was what is it physics person, Ramasastry. Ramasastry

Professor Ramasastry and vice chairman was Mahabala.

because we were started like what do you call as

computerizing the list and other things at there

because we had the IBM 360.

So, Mahabala was once the application comes you know

you give all the details and the computer shows all the

details and then, print out comes out and other things

and false numbering, all these things were done there.

And then, conducted the this thing. But if you remember,

this is not online like nowadays. No, no.

It used to carry cards for each candidate you know card, deck,

a deck of cards. Yeah, I mean in the computer.

Computer, because computer can only Yeah, computer system was very tough.

read cards Yeah,

so. it was very tough, you had to print out all the details and give it

there and then sort it out. And check manually.

all the things and check manually and there were.

One major mistake was done;

I no one knows what it. I know it, but then,

I didn’t disclose it except the head of the department

and perhaps the director.

What happened was the I mean I won’t tell the names and other things

because you know. Names you can suppress.

I mean I was the sole authority as far as the

list ranking is concerned you know, it was done here.

Ofcourse, sole authority means I know what is being done and the

ranking is done by the computer.

Once you have the evaluation, then the marks are fed,

once again checked, there will be scrutiny everything is there

and then finally, the merit list comes out of there.

And two merit list are there, one is a main one,

other one is a reserve category, at that time it was only SC and ST.

Just before the day of announcement of the results in the media,

with a list of names and at that time, names also were put there,

suddenly we noted that one person who belong to

the ST or SC group was in the main list.

Main list he won’t get in.

But in the other list, he would have been the top almost.

Then, only I found that this has been wrongly put in the. In the main category.

In the in the while entering the all the things because we cannot

check because there are scrutiny, everything is done

and it got into that one.

Then, I found you know ok, this is alright,

I can look in and then inform saying that this is to be altered

and there was a classification but

are there anything else which is lying like this.

So, we had to go through all those who got into this one

and verify each and every one to look. Manually.

Manually verify that no incident of this type

has come in the main list.

So, that night till about 3 O’clock early morning,

we did the whole thing and said that ok,

nothing except this one and informed Professor Narayanamurthy,

who in turn informed the director

saying that this is the one.

I remember it you stay came with the deck card. Yeah,

that is in Bombay. To IIT Bombay.

That is. Where I was working as lecturer,

that is why. So, that was a incident which I really

I mean it was a I mean things would have gone wrong. Right.

But fortunately yeah, at the right time,

somebody intertwined and. The mistake was predicted

and then, you said you know deanship

and after deanship many things change.

You yourself were a dean. Yeah.

If I am correct, took over somewhere in 85. Yeah.

And I remember and then, you are functioning from

the civil engineering department. Yeah.

So, how is that you know this new building was created,

was it during your time or when?

Yeah, I was I mean as a dean of course, I had the

different roles in the institute because right from the

early days you know, before I became dean,

I was a advisor. Cultural.

Cultural and advisor I mean placement and training,

then I was a chairman of alumni association

so, all these things were there.

So, I had little bit of exposure to

the people around so, there was not much of a difficulty for me to

take up a job like a deanship.

And when Professor Srinath called me,

requested me whether you can take up this one,

because I think the earlier dean was

Kuriakose I think, no Mahabala,

Mahabala was handling that IC and SR.

So, he said the you can take from Mahabala, Mahabala will go to

dean of research or something like that.

I was not very clear as to what ICSR area will be because

in at that time, the consultancy and other things were very very limited. Minimal.

Minimal and then, things were not looking so bright and other things.

So, anyway, it was given and then, I accepted it and then, took it out.

It was there office was there and only thing is that it was

an air conditioner room because normally,

even the head of the department didn’t have it

so, that is the only comfort we got it

because the average room without much of a major

sophistication or anything like that and that was the place.

There of course, we could implement certain things and

then, I may say that you know things improved considerably

during that period because we planned out certain things,

one is that of course, at that time,

there was no internet or anything like that you know

where you can have online access to what is happening so,

we made a number of booklets which covers many of the activities

concerned with the different departments.

Then we started a newsletter every month,

we used to give it to the industries

that was called NewsTech news on technology.

Then, then we started industry associationship

whereby the industries can become a member

associate member of the institute

and it was gradually increasing to 150 or 180

industries joining there. You were also conducting refresher courses.

I mean that is called TAP that is technology appreciation programmes. TAP.

So, these were all put up thereby you know the institute

had an exposure to the industries

and that went on like this and I mean

personally, I was responsible for the

research-based consultancy RBIC. RBIC.

Which was not there because I found that you know

consultancy means existing knowledge be...is...tried. Mostly testing.

Testing and the existing knowledge the foundation;

I mean structural, this thing you know, where you know. Routine, routine thing.

You do the calculation, give it out.

But then, there was a gap there you know

an industry want something to be done and it

is not available with as a knowledge

so, you generate that knowledge and then, do the

solution to or give the solution to them that means,

there should be a research and a

consultancy based on that research.

So, I thought that in it would be good to have a

separate category called this research-based consulting.

It was a risky because you know one doesn’t know how the

industries are going to put money for this one

and of course, the division of the money and other things were

planned out reasonably attractive for the

persons who are because earlier, sponsored research

didn’t have any remuneration for the.

Even now, it is not there.

So, here you know if you take this research, you get

little bit remuneration also so, thereby

the faculty members were little more attracted towards this one.

And the first one came from I think.

Ennore. Yeah, Ennore that one,

that was the first 37 lakhs or something like that

I don’t remember. It is a huge money at that time.

Yeah, at that time, it was very huge and then,

gradually it picked up and it is

now earning more than the consultancy now.

Interesting I thought you know it was existing.

No. But you are the first

person to introduce RB. Yeah, I did the whole thing.

We call it as RBIC. RBIC.

Yeah right. Even then that name also I was given

and I made all the forms for that one personally,

not even to given to Balakrishnan.

I remember I did the whole thing in the computer myself

and then, handed it over and then it worked. When did you move to this

now building was it ok? No, I was not moving out at all

because. It is a next you know. What happened was one day

Balakrishnan who was the. Chief techno.

Chief techno economics officer told me

sir, we have got almost 80 lakhs in our overheads.

If you don’t do it somebody, will going to take it out.

So, I said you know what we can do?

Then, we discussed for a short period and said you know

why can’t we have a separate.

Building. Building for ICSR because it is going to expand.

Then, it was not very clear whether somebody may

accept it or not so, fortunately

what we wrote a letter

stating that this is the condition,

this it is essential to have a place where

interaction with the industry can take place, we got the

technology appreciation programme

which can be conducted so many things were there so, you put it together

and gave it to Professor Swamy who was a director at that time. Ok.

So, he didn’t have much of a objection to it.

So, he put it up in the board of governors and he got approved.

So, I got approval only.

By that time, my term was over. But you initiated

Initiated it yeah yeah, the process, that is more important.

I got the approval and also, the location I told. Ok, right.

So, these two were done by me, but afterwards,

Professor Raju was there, and he constructed. Do you remember so far in your

chairman of alumni association,

we also tried to have a separate office.

We were operating from different labs.

Yeah. We didn’t have a formal office for alumni.

Yeah, that was the training in placement was the only place

where it was done. Yeah. It was not there.

In. When I was there, it was not there because

what we tried our best you know. I remember

we. I was secretary for your,

not secretary or treasurer. You know what when was you know at that time,

we started sending letters to many

alumni with the addresses available

and almost 80 percent came back

saying that the addresses are not I mean

I mean available, addresses are not available.

So, that way you know it was not a well-functioning alumni association

and things have improved because the contacts

were established later with the. Now, they have an office,

exclusive office. No, because internet has

made the whole thing different.

Earlier you know you had the address list

which has been given by them when they joined

and parents address have changed, everything is changed,

it was impossible to trace them and

that was the thing and then, systematically is

gradually improved, today has become better. Gradually.

Then, down the line, you are also head of the Department of Mechanical. Yeah.

And in between the lab name

change you know, our section name

it was machine tools and production engineering. Machine tools and. yeah.

it was changed to manufacturing engineering.

Do you have any reason for it or.

There were two-three instances where you know

we wanted to have a wider because the number

see in any group, the number counts.

If you have got only 6 people, 5 people it doesn’t survive

that was the case with precision engineering.

I told that you know if you have got 4 people or five people,

it is only a question of time.

I mean it will vanish one day because you know you would not get

people unless you do a lot of work so that attraction comes then.

So, my idea was I mean at that time itself, I told

the industrial engineering was there

they were. There was the proposal to come

by industrial engineering with manufacturing. Yeah, there was a proposal.

I think it Professor Indiresan was a director at that time. Yeah, he

himself told that you know why don’t you have a

I mean I was positive to that one,

I said you can say manufacturing and management section.

That is what my plan was

I mean that is how the manufacturing came.

So, because manufacturing and management will be one group,

industry engineering converted itself into management, it has happened.

So, these two were planned out,

manufacturing and management and then,

you can have a bigger department,

almost a bigger lab which can

definitely get into a department in course of time.

Because there was a lot of thrust

given to manufacturing in the that period,

the Government of India wanted to have. Yeah,

in 80’s and. Because because the

CNC technologies came there and they were very particular

and then, you know they asked us whether you are going to have a

B.Tech. programme. Yeah, IIT Kharagpur

started B.Tech. programme. Delhi it started.

Delhi. And we were asked, but we didn’t want because

we knew that this alone cannot stand.

So, we said no, but a department would have been alright.

Then, that was the idea, but in our own group people objected

saying that industry engineering should not be coming here

so, finally, we didn’t want and manufacturing. So, the; so, we ended with having a name manufacturing.

Manufacturing. And they are having a different name,

Department of Management Science. Yeah, because it was planned

you know I knew that it end up; it will end up as management only.

Industry engineering cannot thrive by itself.

So, it was manufacturing and management section was planned,

but management didn’t come up,

manufacturing continued, and management came separately that is all. Right.

Again, you are the first one to bring in the industry money

to have a new building. Yeah.

And can you recollect when was that time, year of it,

I can recollect, but.

No, it all started with Professor Indiresan requesting me to go and meet

Venu Srinivasan of Lucas TVS I mean

Sundaram Clayton. Sundaram Clayton.

I went and met him and said that you we are interested in

having some facilities created and Professor Indiresan

told me to meet you and then, discuss.

He said yes yes, we will be happy to support something,

you meet one Mr. Lakshmanan, who is the

one who is looking into all the finance. Were you dean at that time?

No, no, I was not dean yeah, I was dean.

You were dean. No, no, I was not dean because Professor Indiresan

time, I was not dean. Ok.

So, it was just before that one

I mean maybe an year before Srinivas took over.

So, I went and met Venu Srinivasan

and he directed me to contact Mr. Lakshmanan who has been

there for a long time even now, he is there, he is maybe about 85 or

something like, still they are keeping him there.

So, I met him, and he said you know, very good

we will help you out

and so, they gave 10 lakhs for the automation

lab from which we got that small the CNC trainers and other things

which was a new thing for the whole institute and

new thing for the engineering system.

So, that was the first installment and

we did some projects and other thing to show that we are

doing something in automation.

Then, when I met Lakshmanan once again

in connection with this one,

he just you know how are you going to accommodate all these things?

I said there is not much room, we just

kept it in the I mean some places gaps

where there in the ground floor. And some corridor.

And some of them in the machine tool lab and other things.

Then, he said you know can we think about some space and other things?

I said we don’t have money, the institute is not

going to give money for buildings and all ok.

Let me look in.

Then, he said then he said you know we will be able to

support little bit for this one and

he said that they and other sister

companies will look into it and then,

after discussing with the concerned group,

we will come back to you.

Then finally, he told me that there is a possibility,

but however, we have to you have to give us a letter

stating that you know once the building comes up,

a name can be given by us

which will be given to the building. Building.

And I made the Professor Srinath, by that time Srinath came

and I was a dean because dean has nothing to do with

this one because I was doing it from the

manufacturing engineering group only,

it has nothing to do with the

because many people construed it as you know as a dean I did it.

No. It happen no. Yeah.

People think you know. No,

I did it much earlier than you know, It is only a question of following it up. Right.

So, it is likewise you know the Indo-German Agreement,

many people thought that you know I am dean and I got it,

even before that one it was given.

So, that way it was not connected with the deanship.

And when Indiresan left and the Professor Srinath became director,

I met him and then, discussed you know,

we initiated the whole thing and now, they are prepared to

fund a building provided this is the condition which is to be satisfied.

Srinath agrees saying that there is no problem, you know I will give a letter

and he gave a letter to five companies of that group

saying that you know these are the things and then,

we will be prepared to name it as per your wish

and this was given by me to Lakshmanan,

he gave it and finally, their boards agreed.

So, they said they won’t be able to give it you know

altogether, but they will do it in two or three years. Yeah.

So, I told that this is the only location where we can

have another building so,

Srinath came and then, looked at it and then ok, alright.

So, thats how the building started coming.

The greatest difficulty came

at the end of the building, at the at

final stage of the building, the building was completed

even the name was written.

You can have a look at this, this is a building.

This is a building, the name was written, this is a first building

in the campus and I am sure that it is a first building in the IIT system

which has got a name given by the donors.

Ok. And I had to face lot of problems out of that one.

So, at that time, the chairman was Mudaliar.

A. L. Mudaliar. A. L. Mudaliar

and he was industry free, industry friendly.

He said you know before he stepped down,

he told me personally, Radhakrishnan your

proposal for naming has been approved by the board.

I said ok, that is good I mean this is what.

Then, after he changed over,

the new chairman came, Swaminathan was there.

M. S. Swaminathan. M. S. Swaminathan there

and of course, N. V. C. Swamy was the director.

He was not connected with that one

because only L. S. Srinath gave the letter.

So, one fine morning, I was called to by the director,

please come over here,

we have to have a who asked the,

who told them that they can put the name for the building? Building.

I said did I mean who, who

gave you the authority to inform the, I said I didn’t give it,

there is a letter by the director

and I showed the copy of the letter.

No, no, how can director also

say without the board’s approval or something like that,

but I didn’t know what has happened

because the I didn’t have anything to do with the board.

So, I said that I know only this much,

he agreed to it and then, I gave the letter and

they pursued this one.

And then suddenly, they

the name was there, they covered the name.

Office I mean from the institute side,

they came and put a white cloth and then,

covered the name so that it will not be seen outside.

This was a very big shock for me because I had committed,

I have told them directly, met everyone and

said that name is coming up and we had to

think about inauguration, then

I had a very bad evening

when what is that Lucas TVS.

Chairman Venu Srinivasan.

No, no, Balaji T. K. Balaji. T. K. Balaji ok.

Requested, called me on the phone,

Radhakrishnan when are we having the inauguration

and when are we going to put the name?

I said there is some difficulty, what is the difficulties he said,

the institute is not allowing us to put a name.

What so, he started

I mean he got furious because the money is there,

you agreed for it

and now, you say that you can’t,

I don’t know what to do you know they put the money and

really speaking, I was really I mean totally shocked out of that one.

I mean I remember that night,

I don’t know what to do I mean 28 lakhs

who is going to pay back.

Yeah. If something happens you know, it they can

imagine I mean you know.

We can we lead to lead to complications. Yeah, lead to complication.

So, I didn’t know what to do

and then, I went back and told Swamy

because I don’t have anything to do with this one because

I took a responsibility of continuing the activities

of the section by doing certain things.

Then it took a long time, they went to the ministry,

ministry said you know who asked you to do all these things,

there is no unless without our permission, you can’t do it.

All sorts of things came.

Finally, they said that they told the institute

I mean the ministry or the officers, it was 93,

things were changing from the convention and 90 onwards. They opened up.

Yeah, they opened up with the global. Opened up, but then, people were not opening up.

Ok. So, opening up was there theoretically,

but people were still the conservative groups there.

So, finally, what happened was

I understand that from he from the institute, chairman and

the board of governor told them that there is no clause

stating that you can’t put a name, from outside.

I mean. Yeah.

There is nothing preventing. Preventing them.

So, finally, fortunately, I should say that it was agreed upon

and then, we had the inauguration sometime in

June to the I mean 90 9. Yeah. 93. June.

That was one incident. In fact you know IIT Kharagpur

named after know, over there is one person who donated. No, after that.

It is much after that. after that

ok, but it was named after the person. Yeah,

You know, there are you know people are asking for money.

so. Yeah, now, we have many buildings

you know. Yeah, because people go and ask for money,

but at that time, you know the money was there,

but they didn’t want to have it.

So, I mean mindset was changed. Ok.

So, when you look at the building, you remember.

Yeah, I remember, I don’t consider myself

to connected with that one, but at the same time, I had a.

Bitter experience. Experience which is different. Right.

For doing something which is advanced than the current one.

Now, we have and spent lot of time recollection.

Yeah. Do you on recollect anything which is you know you think

it is your achievement wise or rememberable

you know beyond this point

anything that comes to your. No, I mean irrespective of whatever

happened you know, these were all small incidents

you know which. Yeah, but what is that you

carry with you. I never had any problem

because I loved the place,

I loved the IIT very much in fact, you know

I still feel that you know it is the best decision I have done

as far as my professional career is concerned,

I don’t have any regrets on that one.

So, effectively, everyone helped me out

I mean there were incident, these are all normal things which happen.

Small things. Only thing is at times you know it hurts you.

Yeah. And otherwise, it was very.

Sir, do you remember this photograph?

and. You know this is a lab,

I don’t remember the timing, it maybe in the early 70’s

or some like that when we had the machine tool lab

and the faculty, a few of them Dr. Philip you can see.

Yeah. Srinivasan you can see as a.

Right Jayapal. L. Vijay Raghavan, Jayapal Singh,

Krishnamurthy, Surya Prakash I think,

a few are there who are the works mean

we had a very coherent group at that time.

In fact, you know the type of work

which was going on in the machine too lab

was in I mean really fantastic. You know like a workshop it used to

start in the morning and. No, it was a fantastic lab in the sense you know

it was a really a rewarding experience there,

there is no doubt about it,

but it is not that much now because

the things have changed and the focus is different now.

So, if you are asked to come now, you would like to come

back to IIT hopefully there is no. No, I don’t have any problem,

there is you know I do not have any I in fact. Theoretically;

theoretically you don’t have any.

I am welcome here because I find that everyone is happy when

whenever I meet them

so, I feel very comfortable, there is no problem. Very good,

thank you, thank you very much.

Thank you. Anything that comes to your mind beyond this.

No, nothing much beyond that were Ok.

nothing else you know I mean one thing which I wanted to

I enjoyed playing tennis here.

I started playing tennis

the right from the very beginning when I came here,

of course, I was not a professional player and that

I mean earlier I was playing basketball,

then I switched over to tennis,

then that accident stopped me from playing for almost 4 years

because I couldn’t raise the this thing,

afterwards I continued and even now,

today also I play tennis.

And you were also gardening enthusiast

once you know if I remember. Yeah, gardening enthusiastic and

And no one knows I repair things.

Any mechanical equipment I can repair at home I do it.

Even. Absolutely, even any make

only regret is I am my only regret is I never learned electronics.

Had it been there, I could have done much more. Right.

So, I like mechanical repairing very much.

Thanks sir on behalf of Heritage Centre,

let me thank you. Thank you very much.

For spending all the time. Thank you very much, bye.

Was the expectation out of a young faculty then…

was it told to you that you know, you have to publish papers,

you have to do projects, because

these days when a young person comes,

and joins, there are lot more expectations.

You know out of the…yeah.

There was no expectation from me,

except that I have to teach this course,

because there is no one to teach this course.

In fact, I went with a list of courses

that I could easily teach.

I went to Professor Rajappan, gave them…

he says, “This does not belong to your section, this does not belong.”

In fact, and say, “Oh come on, no don’t worry about

it, whatever we will give you, you learn and teach.”

Um…department was very different.

Prof. Jalihal: Was the classification very strict, very strict? Prof. Jhunjhunwala: Very strong classification,

Prof. Jhunjhunwala: though I was able to cut in for my doing work,

Prof. Jhunjhunwala: but well digital also was new, there was not strong…

Prof. Jhunjhunwala: so I was allowed to teach Communication,

Prof. Jhunjhunwala: I was allowed to teach Electromagnetics

Prof. Jhunjhunwala: and Surface Acoustic Wave Devices I started teaching.

Prof. Jhunjhunwala: There is not strong faculty.

Actually I soon found out,

that in our department,

we had a strong power and instrumentation sections.

Professor V. G. K. Murti, Kuppurajulu,

Professor Narayana Rao very good,

Professor V. V. Sastry, the…

what is called Electronic Sections

are not that strong. Yeah,

Professor Radhakrishnan was there in Circuits,

and Anthony Reddy. Rest was alright.

Achuthan was there in Devices,

didn't do too much in Devices,

Communication…V. V. Rao was there individually very strong,

but there was no strong group of faculty in any of them.

Digital Circuits we hardly had anything.

That time, our department used to give 2 degrees undergraduate:

Power and Electronics, and of course later on I try…

helped in integrating, that was a tough battle.

But here, I was actually learning a lot of things

and for the first time I had some confidence

that we can build few things.

So I have met some students,

sorry, of…of that period; you know, mid ‘80s

who were in the Power,

but felt that if they

had taken courses in Communication or Devices,

because I met many people in the US

who were from the Power,

but they take…took courses in Devices,

so that they could apply, and so, you know

that was some kind of an artificial…

Yeah, it was not easy.

Prof. Jalihal: Yeah. Prof. Jhunjhunwala: But a few of them worked with me,

so working-wise in the projects, etcetera,

there was not as strong a restriction,

so a number of them worked with me.

Now one of the thing that…I at the meantime,

two things else was happening:

one was this group that…when I came in and

Mukundan had mentioned to me

a group called Patriotic and People Oriented

Science and Technology; PPST.

I became a strong part of this group,

in fact, by and large that was operating from my home.

This was a group of scientists.

There are few from IIT, not too many; myself,

Mukundan used to be a Scientific Officer at IIT Madras,

Professor B. Viswanathan from Chemistry Department.

But there were number of other people:

Professor M. D. Srinivas,

Professor M. S. Sriram, Bajaj,

Professor C. N. Krishnan who was undergraduate student here,

and taught at Chromepet.

Number of them…we used to form together…

we are all concerned about India,

and we started looking at what is happening

with science and technology in India.

And we soon started looking at…came across

a work of one Shri Dharampal Ji.

His work was very fascinating.

His work was that…

till 18th Century, India was a very developed country.

And not just developed

in ordinary man…it…may…way, it was a

very good science and technology,

which came to us as a surprise,

because we have never heard of science and technology in India,

and that too in 18th century or before.

But 18th century, enough work he had done;

number of books, number of things

where science and technology…

he showed the science and technology flourished.

And we started getting connected to that, doing work,

trying to figure out what kind of learning

and all of this seems to have been destroyed,

not by Mughals, but by actually Britishers.

Prof. Jalihal: Yes, yes, yes, yes.

And by the time of independence all of this had gone.

Dharampal Ji himself had taken…was a disciple of Mahatma Gandhi.

Apparently Mahatma Gandhi in number of his speeches

had talked about India of 18th century and the past,

and had talked about how we are very strong.

And Dharampal Ji had pursued work

largely in archives in…in India and in Great Britain,

trying to actually cull out the information about India of 1730, 1750, 1770

and gave us a very good picture.

So I used to spend considerable time

on that. Most of my evenings I used to work

on that, used to spend a lot of time.

The second thing, since I was at IIT Madras,

I sort of say, might as well look at the industry.

Now, how do you look at the industry?

Apparently IIT had no connection with industry,

our department practically had no connection.

There were some defence projects.

Well, some projects were there,

but I also soon realized

Professor Narasimhan was doing…I worked with him,

Professor Raina was doing,

I was working with him.

But I soon realized that

nothing was going to go all the way to function and production.

But ICSR was there.

ICSR was not there.

Was not there.

There was some office, don't remember the name,

but what happened; I had a

few connections because of my family with some industry.

So I remember, since I was engineer, an electronics engineer,

I went to Calcutta and

one of my uncle used to be a part of a company,

and one day he told me, “Ashok,

I have this big machine which I imported,

and it is not functioning.”

So I had gone with him

to try to see that machine,

at least figured out enough, had no idea,

that what was happening, and what was wrong.

I had kind of pointed out

what was wrong.

I had gone to another relatives of ours,

and I had figured out that if we could change the process,

using something, because you remember that micro

mouse that had given me, I

had some confidence that some things can be done.

I told him what can be done to really improve his productivity.

Soon, little bit of things like this,

even some of the Chennai based industrialist

got to know and here and there I’ll get opportunity

to visit some of the industry,

And I will see that.

I was actually very disappointed.

This was a period, you know, to understand the industry,

you also need to understand India a bit,

and I am going to go back and tell you a little bit…

a few little experience of mine at early period.

When I came here, I wanted to buy a 2 wheeler,

a scooter, I had just about enough money

to buy a 2 wheeler scooter.

As such in this campus, a 2 wheeler will be very, very useful.

Beautiful campus full of greenery,

deers, 2 wheeler will be very useful,

enable me to move around very quickly.

And somebody told me Bajaj Chetak is very good.

So I went and saw in the…

in a shop…in a showroom of theirs, Bajaj Chetak, liked that.

They told me about the prices and they told

me a special offer, I said, “I will buy that.”

They told me to…they were going through everything and

got me to select the colour, did everything

and even I gave them the cheque.

And I told them, “When can I pick it up?

Or when it’ll be delivered?”

The person looked at me

and said, “Sir, you will be in a queue.”

So I said, “Well, how long will I have to wait? 15 days, month?”

“Sir, no sir, our waiting queue is 4 years.”

I was taken aback,

I couldn't believe…

you have money to buy a scooter, it takes 4 years.

Soon I realized that that was India.

There was of course, I figured out later, after some time,

through a friend of mine,

through a student friend of mine.

Prof. Jalihal: If you take foreign exchange… Prof. Jhunjhunwala: That if you had a…

played in foreign exchange, you can get it

soon. Unfortunately, I had

spent all my foreign exchange,

I didn’t have any,

but there was a defence student of ours; Rajesh Sanghi

who later became my Ph.D. student. I will talk about it.

He said that, “Sir, but if you have receipt, we can still do it.”

I fortunately had the receipt,

he went, booked it, I got the scooter in 6 months.

Actually I had paid…done receipt for 1000,

so he actually got two scooter: one for himself and one for myself.

And in my mind it was…I was wondering, “Why…if there is a demand

why cannot scooter be produced? Why should there be a waiting list?”

And it was not about scooter only.

I wanted to get a

gas cylinder for my home.

I went to a place where gas cylinder booking is done.

There was an old man,

and I told him, “I have come here for booking.”

He says, “When was your booking done?”

I says, “No, I have not done the booking.”

“So you have never done the booking?”

“Your parents have not done the booking?”

Says, “No, I have coming to Madras for the first time.”

No, he looked at me,

he brought out some old…some

ledger, asked me to write down,

and he very softly told me,

“Sir, I do not think that you are going to get it in your lifetime.

But still do it, this will benefit your children.”

The currently…the people who are getting, are the people

who got…whose parents had booked it for them.

And one of the best marriage gift that I got

later on, was one of my friend,

Dr. Krishnan’s wife walked in with her gas cylinder.

She had 2 gas cylinder.

If you had 2 gas cylinder,

you can gift 1 gas cylinder to somebody else.

Now 2 gas cylinder is so that

when one runs out, you can use the other one,

but if you are left with one gas cylinder, you can apply for

a second gas cylinder, and you can get it.

So these…all these loopholes existed

and long waiting list for everything.

There was nothing that was easily available.

So we realized that our industry

was not even able to produce enough for the demand.

And in my early interaction with industry, I

soon figured out why.

There was practically no technology development work done

in any of these industry.

Everything was just

tech…imported technology,

where they got complete technology,

they will get all the parts,

they will just assemble and supply.

And, of course they would get decent margin,

later got to know that

you need a license to manufacture, and

limited licenses were available.

So they were…whether it was a telephone…

I…I uhm…so not just scooter, and I think

before that I should talk about this telephone.

Because telephone will play a very important role.

I was here, my parents were in Calcutta

and one of the first thing that we had decided, we will get a telephone.

When I came here, I was told that to get a telephone

in Chennai the third largest…in Madras,

the third largest city in India at IIT Madras,

it is a long waiting list.

And it took me 8 years to get a telephone.

And it did really bite me;

a lot of my work in telecom actually

came from that experience.

But basically what I found was that industry

was just not ready;

not there to move things along. Industry

produced limited extent, their licenses and all that.

It is this which my work at IIT Madras.

Prof. Jalihal: So… Prof. Jhunjhunwala: There was a interesting incident,

it just happened to be in chance.

I happen…had happened to visit a factory,

by now enough undergraduate students were working with me.

I happened to visit an industry and figure out…

they were making a power line

carrier communication equipment; WS Industries.

They were also importing technology, they were making it,

they were selling equipment.

Close to a lakh, 10000 rupees per unit.

I had understood that, because by that time

I had…my knowledge of communication and

systems had kind of prompted that

what was it doing. I understood that well.

There was a lecture in the city,

under the banner of I think IET,

and they had invited me to give a talk,

and I talked about that how our industry is importing everything.

And I gave example…for example,

how this company, I didn't name it,

was actually importing every component of power line

carrier communication and making it and selling at a lakh 12,000 rupees.

There’s no R and D getting done.

If that industry gave me one lakh rupees,

I will develop the whole technology

for them and give it to them in 1 year.

Full system I will design, develop and transfer it to them.

I made that statement,

a newspaper apparently published this. Indian Express, I think,

don’t remember…and a day later I get a call,

from the Chairman Managing Director of the Company.

I was little worried that…

I had not named them, but still.

He says he was, “Why do not you visit me?”

So I went and met him I had already seen part of his plant.

He says, “Ashok are you serious that you can with

1,00,000 rupee you can actually make it?”

I said, “I think I can.”

And I gave him that these are the blocks,

and this is what this block has.

He pulled out a cheque,

wrote down 1,00,000 rupees and gave it to me.

Was your first project on industry?

From first project from industry,

a lakh rupees will be equivalent to almost a crore rupees now.

Prof. Jalihal: Yeah, yeah. Prof. Jhunjhunwala: And here, he betted me,

hardly knew me, and he got one of his staff

who was in R and D…

was helping in translating the…into production,

say associate with him. I was taken aback.

I had no clue what to do,

but here I had industry project,

came back with a cheque.

I had something like 14 undergraduate students

working on it in Laser Communication Lab in ESB for 1 year.

Big table, they are making pieces and pieces and pieces.

People used to work whole night,

and we got guidance from this

industry person. Some guidance, not enough.

At the end of one year,

we are able to demonstrate of working prototype.

But this was very different from what I had promised.

I had said, “I will get the technology ready for you to manufacture.”

Will this be reliable? Certainly not

it used to work, it used to take us 20-25 minutes

to get that to work, and it will work for 10-15 minutes and it will fail.

Something which will work 24 by 7, no way

something which could be manufactured, no way,

something which will be cost optimum

and people will make money, we had no clue.

But we had done that much.

I was feeling little bit guilty,

and I got a call from the Chairman of the company

and he said he wants to visit us.

He says that, “I am told that you have a working prototype ready,”

and I was very apologetic and he came,

I started with my apology and all that,

he came, he saw it, he seemed to be very happy.

His money was spent by that time. Components…

undergraduate students are working as…

probably not even paying them.

Um, he was quite happy, and he said, “Ashok, very happy,

you have done the job. Huge confidence…we will…

you just send this whole thing to me now, to my factory.”

I said, “Yes, but it is unreliable.” “It doesn't matter!”

“Sir, I don’t know whether you can ever

make money by producing it.”

“It’s alright, send it to me.”

The whole thing was shifted, project was closed.

About 2-3 months down the line, one day I get a call,

“Ashok I have some people visiting

about this project, why don't you come?”

I go there, I land up in a meeting with him, with 3 people.

I think they were from Canada,

I am not sure, they could be from United States,

from the company from which he was importing.

And he was having a chat with them, I walked in,

and he introduced me, “Here is doctors…Dr. Jhunjhunwala,

he came from United States

and he knows everything…technology wizard,” this that…

and I was feeling very…”And he has actually

developed this power line career communication completely from scratch,

on his own, and I am going to produce that in next 3 months.”

He went into a great pitch that this

will reduce my cost. “You are giving me at 85-80,000 rupees,

this will reduce my cost to around 30-35,000 rupees.”

And it’s ready! A few times I try to

open up and he will indicate to me

I should just keep quiet, watching.

And then he took them outside say, “I will show you,”

and there was on a table, this whole thing put,

in a glass case, and glass case was removed,

and sure! Little bit working, just like what we had done in the lab.

These people asked me a few questions,

and I knew enough about them, I could explain them.

By now, I knew that I don't need to speak more than that.

So, he went on to say that,

“So I am going to produce this, I have to

discontinue this product…import from you. Too bad,

but other products I will continue.”

By the end of the day, he had signed with them

to import the components of their design at 35,000 rupees.

Prof. Jalihal: Half the cost. Prof. Jhunjhunwala: At less than half the cost.

1,00,000 he spent only.

So he of course, brought down the price,

from a lakh ten, to close to 90,

and its volume grew like anything.

First time I realized that different facets of technology development,

and I realized the mind of a entrepreneur, and industrialists,

and I do not even have to really make something which is fully ready.

The very fact that I can do that, that threat is enough,

and our industrialists are smart enough to know…bargain

that at least it will be now imported at a lower price,

you will get better prices because you have something.

You know it is interesting that you say it,

because in 1987, was the 40th year of independence

and we had organized that in Toronto and

a very famous constitution lawyer Nani Palkhivala came and gave a talk.

You know with a big audience.

There he said, “Indian businessmen are so smart,

they can buy from Irishmen, sell it to a Jew, still make a profit.”

I mean…Irishmen and Jew are supposed to be very…you know

good with money so he says,

Prof. Jalihal: “But you know, something is holding back.”

So…so it’s very interesting that we…you know,

Prof. Jalihal: we are talking about the same period now 1840…1987, yeah.

So…but I learnt and I…this very fact that

technology…even the start of technology development

can empower us in many, many manner.

First, our undergraduate students who actually did that,

they were different. Very different from what…

earlier these people were there.

Some of them even decided to stay back in India,

otherwise rest…everybody was going abroad.

They actually learn to build things.

I learnt in the process. Industry…the person who worked…worked with

industry: Venkata Subramanyam, he start…became a very close friend.

In industry I had a huge reputation by now. All over.

I used to keep on getting calls from different industrialists,

most of the time to fix the machine.

And I had no clue what these machines were,

they are all imported; they said, “If you have to

call the technicians from there, it will cost us

Prof. Jalihal: Lot of money. Prof. Jhunjhunwala: tons of money.”

And I said, “What do you do with the industry…with the machine

if you don't call?” Says, “Well, it’s a loss,

you leave it.” And I will go with my…

our undergraduate student sometime

with our Master’s and I even had a

Ph.D. student Krishna Thilakam;

she was good, she had come from ITI,

she knew little more circuits than many of us used to know.

And, we would go there and occasionally even fix the machine.

Even our own Institute, people used to call us

and occasionally we will fix big machines.

Simple small electronic fault we may be able to repair,

it gave us a huge confidence

that we can do things industrialists were using, and

this was my first industry-academia interaction.

Yes, Dr. Majhi, welcome to this programme organized by the

Heritage Centre of IIT Madras.

The main purpose of...is to show, to learn from you

the history of the Department of Physics,

after you joined in 1967.

So if you can, kindly brief us. Yeah.

When you joined how the department was, with reference to its

programmes like Ph. D., M. Sc.

and the type of research,

and the people you have been interacting with.

Yeah, ok, good evening everybody.

So, as suggested by the Heritage Centre, I will briefly outline

my talk in three groups, before joining IIT,

then in the IIT, activities

and after leaving IIT, means after retirement, ok.

So, I was born in Berhampur, a small town in Orissa,

I think you also know that. Yes.

My primary education, middle class, up to B. Sc., I was in Berhampur.

So, I came to IIT straight from Berhampur to this place,

it was really difficult for me, because when

a person comes from a small place to a bigger city,

you get a shock first,

Yeah. so I heard that...

Is it a shock of the language?

Is it a shock of the culture, is it a shock of the food? Everything.

I didn’t know Tamil. Ok.

And also, the culture was little different,

Ok. even the food habits are different.

So...but I could adjust, in the short time, that’s ok. That’s good.

Its ok...anyway, Berhampur I will tell a little bit ok.

My childhood...see my father was a teacher,

I come from a teacher family, my brother is a teacher,

father is a teacher, I am a teacher, ok.

So, my father used...he was the district teacher means,

so what is that called I don’t know,

he used to move from one place to another,

wherever the district people ask him to go there, like that.

So, my education, primary education was a problem,

because every one year, two years, he used to go to a different place.

So my uncle took the responsibility to educate me. Good.

So my mother...mother’s brother,

she nicely left with my uncle and

went to...went my father wherever they goes to.

So my education started with my uncle’s house,

from primary school.

The primary school was very close to our street only,

I used to just walk down, ok,

we are only four, five students at that time.

It was a municipal school.

So they were just starting.

So I studied up to 3rd class,

then I have to go to another middle

school or something, where I have 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th.

So that was a little away, maybe one kilometre away.

That was a training school.

So its a government school. Ok.

So, I studied there up to 7th.

Somehow I was studying well,

so I got some fellowship also, after 7th there used to be a

scholarship examination. Great.

So. I got it, and of course, it was a meagre amount only,

some...I don’t know, 15 or 20 rupees, but it was encouraging.

In those days. In those days. Ok.

And also I needed money at that time

because my uncle also was a school teacher, and

so that helped me to I think...motivated me to

go to higher and higher classes. Good.

Then after 7th I have to go to high school,

high school is a missionary schoonl, is called Queen

Queen Mission School.

So there I studied from 8th to 11th, at that time

11th was there, not 12th. Yeah. Ok.

Somehow I got a first class in 11th, at that time

first class means everybody used to come and...it was great.

Here nowadays I see the marks people children get, above 90 only.

Yeah. And, there if you get 60, it is a great thing.

Those So that helped me to get another scholarship

in the college education.

So, because my uncle also was telling, "After high school

I cannot teach you, I don’t have funds also."

So I said, "I got scholarship,"

"But anyway you...scholarship, you go to your place."

So I went to my parents' place, that is another street only,

its very...all in Berhampur only. Ok.

So, somehow I managed to join the college.

At that time, it was I. Sc. and B. Sc. Yes.

2 years I. Sc. and 2 years B. Sc.

I managed up to B. Sc. Very good.

With a little struggling and all,

and then after B. Sc., what to do?

There was no M. Sc. in that Khallikote College, ok,

it is a Khallikote college...is a big college,

but at that time, there were no M. Sc. in Khallikote College.

I have to go to...outside, either go to Utkal University, Ravenshaw College,

or I have to come to IIT,

I applied both the places,

no at that time, I was having short of funds.

So I said, "I will work for some time."

I...same college, I joined as a demonstrator. Ok.

For one year, collected some money.

At that time the salary was I think 250 or something...anyway.

250 rupees in those days is a big money. Its a good...good amount Yeah.

So I collected some money to go for higher studies.

So my uncle also agreed and my

brother...elder brother who was also teacher. Ok.

He said, "Ok, we will get some fund,

I will also save give you some funds you can join M. Sc."

So one year I was...the demonstrator

to the Khallikote college, then...then I started thinking where to go. Ok.

B. Sc...after B. Sc., I tried for a JEE IIT ok,

but I failed, I couldn’t get it.

At that time the question paper also was very tough.

And there were. Even now it is tough.

Very tough and there was drawing in that.

Yes. So I didn’t know anything about drawing and all.

So you have to write drawing, as well as the questions but

anyway I am not very sorry, its ok,

I tried once, I didn’t pass, then the other choice was also tried,

a Engineering College in Rourkela, that is REC,

it was just starting.

Ok, just went as far as my grades are concerned, it was ok.

But they...at that time they have to have physical fitness also.

Ok. I was lean and I was more lean.

So I was disqualified on the physical...

then I was So to say, you have been maintaining this physique,

right from the beginning. I think you have seen me from...

So, that was a little shock for me.

So I could not be an engineer ok,

then the other choice was to go for science, ok.

So, to go for science, I have to do M. Sc.

So either go to Ravenshaw, which is near Cuttack.

Yeah, it is near to Cuttack, yes. it is Cuttack.

Or you have to go to...[Indistinct Dialogue] or somewhere ok.

So I think at that time only Ravenshaw College was there,

Khallikote College, then there was another Parlakhemundi College,

these three colleges were there.

But Khallikote...as I said, there was no M. Sc.,

so I applied to...at that time I see this advertisement from IIT.

IIT Madras. They are starting M. Sc., my...I was in the second batch, M. Sc.

B. Tech. was there '59,

but M. Sc. started only in...I joined '63, '62 they started.

Very good. So already one batch was studying.

So I applied...I got the admission in both the places,

but then I had to decide where to go.

So my friend said IIT is the bigger institute,

anyway you are going out of your native...

native place, you have to spend

wherever you go, you have to stay in a hostel,

almost it may come in the...financially, it may be same

whether you stay in Madras or in...

So, I was...hesitant, where to go, finally

I decided, ok let me go to IIT Madras

and But, one question,

at that time IIT Kharagpur also...is much nearer to you.

Kharagpur. Did you try?

I...I didn’t know whether there is a M. Sc. there or something. Ok.

I don’t know, at that time. So.

so IIT Madras... But, this I...this I saw in the newspaper and just applied.

Ok. My friends also asked...advised me to apply just like that.

So it is 1963. '63 that was.

You came from. So at that time there was no entrance test for M. Sc.

Ok, just walking. Luckily maybe...maybe this marks,

B. Sc. marks they called me, for a simple interview like that,

Ok. before admission they

they want to chit chat and say you are fit or not.

Ok.

So I somehow...I managed. Who was the chairman of the department at that time?

At that time, Professor Ramasastry was the HOD. Ramasastry. Ramasastry was there. Ok.

He was the HOD, he joined from beginning, '50...'59. He was coming from IIT Kharagpur at that time.

He came from IIT Kharagpur. Yes.

And then Ramaseshan also, he had joined. Ramaseshan who...

Professor who came from Institute of Science. Later on went back to

He came from Institute of Science Bangalore.

But, he stayed for only one or two years and went off as it... and went back to National Aeronautical Laboratories.

So from beginning, Ramasastry was there,

and he became my guide also, afterwards Ph. D. guide. Ph. D. guide. Exactly, yes.

So, they were there, somehow I could manage.

So how was your days in M. Sc. in IIT Madras?

So, a little bit I want to say about my journey from Berhampur to Chennai. That’s good.

Ok. Because, I was new and I didn’t know anybody in Chennai, no language,

so luckily there was one friend who was studying AMIE.

So there, at that time, lot of Oria people used to come from...studying AMIE,

there were no engineering colleges,

now plenty of engineering colleges are there

In Orissa, some seats are even vacant.

But at that time, only very few engineering...Rourkela, Burla,

and maybe one more like that.

So, many people used to come to...Oria people come to study AMIE

that’s a...you know, that is a...

engineering college, now its not very popular.

So, one fellow was there, his name was

again Aditya Kumar Pattnaik,

your son’s name. Ok.

So I knew only him, he also used to encourage me.

He said, "You come to Madras, I will take care of you."

Because I can’t come straight to IIT, I don’t know where the IIT is,

from station how to come,

and the language problem, he said, "You come,

I will pick you up from station, I will take to my room."

He was already established there. Ok.

And I will bring next day to IIT and put you... Wonderful.

and that was a very good gesture for me,

and there was another friend, who was doing...what is that, Chromepet,

there was...he was doing after B. Sc. you know,

I stayed in Berhampur for one more year.

He joined the Chromepet...that what is that

There is one Madras Institute of Technology, MIT. MIT

He joined as a...he also told me

you..."When you come to Chennai, you come to my..."

But Chromepet is quite far from that,

so I preferred to meet this man, Aditya,

he...luckily what happened, at that time there was only two trains,

one is that Madras Mail Yes.

The famous Madras Mail. Another is a...I think Coromandel was there and I don’t know

No, Coromandel was not there. Not there, and there was...one the Express was there.

So, I took the Mail.

That was a very popular Mail and is a good...

I don’t know how I came, maybe second class somewhere

ordinary compartment or something like that.

Those days we never had reservation.

So, I could manage to come.

But when I got down in station,

he was missing, I was looking for him.

That was very difficult for me.

But, he gave me instruction, "Suppose I can’t come,"

you...he has given me address,

its very near, he was in Vepery somewhere.

Vepery Two-three kilometre.

"You take a rikshaw, come there,

and I will, in case I can’t come to station."

So, it happened

so, because this is the Mail, reaches Chennai in...early mornings.

Around 4 o’ clock. 4 o’ clock.

So I don’t expect him to come also, it happens sometimes.

So, I stayed in the... I would like to say one thing,

Mail is the only one which has not changed

even after the Second World War, Yeah.

till today. Very reliable.

The time of its arrival in Chennai. Yeah.

The time of its departure. Yes, very very reliable.

Great. Even now also I prefer to go by Mail.

Yes. Because Mail reaches Berhampur in a proper time.

In the evening, but Coromandel...midnight both way, Yes.

this way and that way, it is in midnight,

I prefer to go So you reached Central, and then?

Central...and I was looking for him, then I said, "It is still dark, what to do."

So I stayed for some time in the station, Till it is getting.

then I took...I become a little brave,

let me start my journey, at that time, you know these rikshaw walas...

even that auto was not available that time, ordinary rikshaw. Only rikshaw.

Rikshaw, and even hand pulling...people pulling,

So, I took I think cycle rikshaw something, yeah,

I...I didn’t know how to communicate with that rikshaw fellow.

I showed that address, that is written in... He speaks only Telugu and Tamil

That was written in English,

so he couldn’t understand.

But I said...Vepery means...he said, "Ok, I will take you, don’t worry,"

the house number was there. I reached there,

he was anxiously waiting for me.

Very good. So, he took a referral and then,

he brought to...to IIT and then joined.

So that was something interesting, I...

so that gave me some braveness that...

So two years passed after your M. Sc.? Yeah.

You passed out, Then I... and who were the teachers

who were teaching you at that time, 1963?

So I...they put me in Godavari Hostel. Godavari.

Godavari, because at that time only Krishna, Cauvery

was there, and Godavari was just

newly coming Godavari and... Ok, so it was a new hostel for you.

New hostel. I still remember the room number 109 something. 109.

And it happens that later I became Assistant Warden of the same hostel.

Its a very nice thing to do.

So, M. Sc. I...two years, ok.

Yeah, but who were the teachers with you? Yeah.

So, let me see. Ramasastry was there.

Ramasastry was teaching us

solid state physics and semiconductor physics.

And Professor Srinivasan also might be there.

R. Srinivsan. R. Srinivasan. Is the quantum mechanics...

were very good teachers, great teachers.

Swaminathan also might be there.

Swaminathan was teaching some...mathematical physics. Yes.

And . Ramanamurthi was there teaching Ramanamurthi X-rays

X-ray and solid state physics. And who were the other old teachers?

Ramaji Rao, classical mechanics. Yes.

And, then pagdi man what is his name?

Ramabhadran. Ramabhadran.

Electromagnetic theory and relativity, it was nice,

all the teachers were very devoted, and I really like the teaching. Ok.

One thing I want to say was...Professor R. Srinivasan,

he will just come with a chalk,

he will start exactly in time, suppose 10 to 11, exactly he will come,

start immediately, and when he finishes the class,

he finishes the topic, he finishes the chalk and goes.

I was wondering how he adjusting all this thing, wonderful teacher

He was one of the great teachers. and great teacher.

Ok that...so that...and Ramasastry is different type, he will come last class only.

That is 11 to 12, ok, and we don’t know when he will end,

that is another interesting thing.

He will come, slowly he will come, slowly he will start,

but he sometimes, he comes without preparation with things and teaches,

but whatever he teaches you remember,

is a from his practice I mean

These are all the great teachers. Practical things he is more of a practical nature.

So, I really learnt how to do practical experiment from him,

that I have to be understand. Ok.

And, we don’t know, we can’t say,

"Sir time is up" and because it was a difficult things,

so sometimes so it goes up to 1 o’ clock, we miss our lunch.

So again you have to come for the lab,

so it was...that is a peculiar thing.

And, Ramaji Rao, you know, he used to talk philosophy,

someone immediately he will stop,

he will talk something philosophy, and again

come down and do something.

So that is another peculiar, you know

and Ramabhadran is typical you know...

Yeah, Ramabhadran. He was there when you came?

I was there...he was there, all these people were there

when I was there...except He is a very traditional teaching.

He is very principled and disciplined, like that

So, the yeah then X-ray is a our Ram...what is that? Ramanamurthi.

Ramanamurthi "Arre baba," he will say very nicely,

he says he always tell about his village and all you see

"I came from very hard work, you should work hard." Yeah, he is one example.

He used to teach us X-ray as well as experimental techniques.

Experimental techniques. Techniques ok.

Ok. So like that, I had a very good teacher in M. Sc. ok,

any other thing I forgot to you ok. You you you you I think you have you completed M. Sc.

by '65. '65, '63 to '65. '65

Ok, in the hostel life, you know it was... You were there in Godavari

and... Godavari,

it used to have its own mess. So I told no,

initially I had a little problem about the food habits.

Because, here everything is sour no, they give

what is that...curd and all, everything they.

So, I...I slowly I had to adjust...

You also might have had a problem with your timing

because, in Berhampur and Orissa,

you ate lunch around...I mean you eat dinner around

That’s another interesting thing. 11’ o clock in the evening.

Here you have to eat at 6 o’ clock to 7 o’ clock. At 7.

Which is not even your evening tea time. So I am not hungry at all.

So I have to wait at least 8 o’ clock,

by the time, things will be over.

So they say "If you come late, you have to ask for late dinner."

Late meals. ok late meals. Yeah, yeah.

So sometimes I have to say force..."Ok put me for late meals, ok."

And they will put in the plate and cover with another plate

they will write your Room number. Name.

oh Room number right.

Room number because this room number

is more important than name I think. Ok.

So I sometimes...I miss that also,

when I open the top, you have...nothing will be there.

Somebody else might have come later and taken that food also,

and sometimes maybe your rice and sambar will be there.

No... Let me ask you one question,

How much used to be the mess bill per month in those days?

Those days it was very cheap maybe.

Maybe. Maybe about 20, 25, 30 rupees?

May be 30, 40 rupees like that. 30, 40 rupees.

But that also was too much for us.

Yeah, but so to say, the rupee value. But still get food was good,

Yeah. slowly I liked it, because it was nice.

So, another...there used to be a mess committee also.

Student. So 1965, you completed your Masters. Yes.

Then what did you do?

Because you had all the summer vacation. Yes

You went home. so went home.

Then I wanted to apply for research.

In between I got lot of three, four months' gap, ok.

So, I finished in June or July no.

1965, it should be July.

July.

then August, September, October,

the research scholar too was in October something,

so what will I do these three months?

I thought if suppose I don’t get Ph. D.,

I mean research fellowship, what will I do?

So let me join some local college here.

I joined again Khallikote College as a Lecturer.

Khallikote College, the place where you have been doing your... Yeah.

They were happy to take me.

Because I was student there. Ok.

So...but I told them, "Suppose I get fellowship, I may go."

So you have been truthful right through your career,

right through your life. Yeah yeah.

You did not hide any information.

No no. Very nice, ok.

So, so after 3 months, no, I had to leave that college.

Then I got this fellowship, ok.

Then the... How much was the fellowship in 1965?

250 or something 250 rupees, huge money.

And during my M. Sc. also, I got that small fellowship. Fellowship.

They used to be merit come means Yes.

so I was I was really lucky, to get some small fellowship everywhere,

so that I could continue my education. Very nice.

Ok that’s one good thing, ok.

So somehow I got the scholarship here,

so I had to leave that...

so I got a little problem with the administrators,

they say, "You can’t leave like this,

without giving what is prior

information," what is that...of notice that you will be leaving.

So but luckily, the...the Chairman of that,

he was a very kind man...my...they are known to my family.

So my brother, and my...my father’s brother,

they went to the Chairman...[Inaudible Dialogue]

So, you could come out and... I could come out.

Joined in 1965 October in IIT Madras as a Research Scholar. As a Research Scholar.

So With whom did you get registered?

I registered with Professor Ramasastry. Ramasastry.

So I was there at '65 to '67 as the Research Scholar, As the Research Scholar

at that time the other small...what is that...

what is that...available for joining as STA. Yeah,

some scheme was there, because, There was a opening scheme. the department is still

wanted some technical people, Ok.

and Ramasastry said, "Why don’t you join as a senior. As a senior technical assistant.

And do your...continue your Ph. D., ok.

So that way, I joined 1967. '67, I joined.

You joined as a Senior Technical Assistant. A Research Scholar...as a Research Scholar.

No, '65 as a Research Scholar. No no '65 as a Research Scholar

'65 to '67 as a Ph. D. Research Scholar,

'67. After '67, I joined the staff.

Senior Technical Assistant.

So my Ph. D. work became delayed now

because I have to do other work also, ok.

What was the assignment given to you as a STA? Assignment at that time,

see, suddenly Professor Ramasastry gave me a class

to teach M. Sc. Chemistry people ok,

some Physics they have, ok. Ok.

That’s a...maybe that’s a...just like we had, when I studied M. Sc.,

we had a course in Mathematics,

Professor Achuthan used to take. Ok.

Like that there used to be

Interdisciplinary subjects. Interdisciplinary subjects,

that’s a good thing actually.

So I enjoyed that teaching, without much experience Teaching Physics to the Chemistry people.

Chemistry people. Masters.

Some of my students still, I see, they are

teachers in Central School. Ok.

So we still...whenever I see... Great.

So that’s a good thing, ok.

So like that I finished my M. Sc., then two years of research,

and then...then started STA, then after that

You became Lecturer in 1977. I got...'77

because at that time, unless you have Ph. D., you don’t get a

Lecturer post. Ok.

So I had to wait, and because I had to do this teaching and

lab work, my work also got delayed.

And you know Ram sir is the task master,

he won’t...unless you do a perfect job,

he won’t accept it. Yes.

So its ok. How many faculty were there in those days?

When you joined as a...as a...as a staff.

Staff, I told already my teachers Yeah.

they are there, and then, later on who came...

Y. S. Rao might have joined.

Professor Y. V. G. S. Murthi was there. Y. V. G. S. Murthi.

Professor Gopalam was there. Gopalam.

They joined very early, Professor... And S. B. S. Sastry.

Professor S. B. S. Sastry. Maha Seshsayee Maha Seshsayee also...that yes

Around that time. He joined little later.

Yeah. Yes K. V. Reddy.

K. V. Reddy was there from the beginning

And '77 means it should be K. V. S. Rama Rao.

K. V. S. Rama Rao, yeah joined little later, Must be very fresh.

Yeah yeah, then our Y. Syamasundara Rao.

Y. S. Rao, Syamasundara Rao. Y. S. Rao, they are...Acharyulu

B. S. V. S. R. Acharyulu B. S. V. Acharyulu...

There were... How about B. Subrahmanyam?

B. Subrahmanyam also came bit late,

but he was also there for very long time. So, to say...

Yeah By 1977, the department is more or less

formed with these people, to run the department as well as the...

Really, I should say, they have sacrificed their thing

for the department. Ok.

I don’t say the younger generation are not doing,

they are also, but in the beginning, when there are no infrastructure...

Yeah, when you say no infrastructure

what is...what was available at that time?

For example, let me tell about our group,

Yes. Yes. small group, Semiconductor.

Yes. So when I started with Ramasastry,

we didn’t have any material at all,

he got some few samples, from abroad

when he visited what is that University of... Illinois. Illinois.

Where Professor Bardin was working.

Bardin...that is another interesting thing, He had been there for about a couple of months. yeah couple of months.

and, so he, when he...he when he visited his lab,

they were in Bell Labs no, Bardin was working in Bell Lab,

but he was also teaching in the Illinois. Illinois.

So he met him and had discussion. By that time Bardin already was a Nobel laureate.

Nobel laureate. 1977.

Yeah yeah he...he came no, he came to... He is already.

When did he '73 he visit '73 he visited our

visit our department, because Ramasastry

was known to him, and they arranged a Special Convocation.

And also, we had a small conference like thing...

He was awarded the Honoris...Doc...Causa Honoris...

Yeah, in '73. By IIT Madras.

IIT Madras, that’s a great thing to meet a Nobel laureate.

He is a double Nobel laureate, if I remember Yeah, yeah he

He got two Nobel prizes. One for the semi conductor,

One for the invention of transistor, the other for the super conductors. I think

Super conductor, yes so that’s

So you had a chance to meet a wonderful man in semiconductors.

Bardin. Yes that’s really great to see him and discuss with him.

Dr. Bardin. Yeah he was very nice gentleman

and we had a good time.

So that is one...

By the time you finished your Doctorate, 1977 Don’t know

I finished only '76, Ok.

but I was in almost in the verge of...

he visited the department. Visited, yeah.

So, that was How much time did he spend in the department?

I mean with us, in IIT.

Maybe a week or something, I don’t About a week.

exactly...Ramasastry forced him

to visit our department meet all the faculty

and I think he gave a talk also.

This...his experience and all,

how they invented the transistor. Yes.

It is very interesting.

So here, he also told, see

you will not have a very high, I mean what is that

always...for infrastructure and

very good instruments to discover something,

but he say no no we did in a very humble way,

you might have seen the picture no, of the Yes.

transistor invention, how crude it looks. Yes.

So so could do, if...if you have will, you can do something.

So...that so, that’s a good thing actually.

Very good. That’s not necessary always you should have a

big infrastructure to do something.

What do you find? You...you have supernnuated in 2002.

1973 to 2002 is almost about 20, say 30 years.

Yeah, I spent nearly...yeah 30...30. Yeah 30 years.

more than 30 years, yeah. In the 30 years, the...the...the

the whole science has changed,

now infrastructure is more important than the ideas. Yeah yeah

now of course, without infrastructure you can’t do anything, yeah.

And, so what you have to do is, when you are doing research,

there was not much infrastructure.

We have to build our own equipment, ok

small-scale, for example What was available in the department at that time?

An X-ray diffractometer?

X-ray was there and, Because with Ramanamurthy.

Ramasastry bought some good oscilloscopes,

HP oscilloscope, which was...I used for my field of experiment.

Therefore one thing. There used to be one...Czochralski Crystal Puller.

If I remember correctly the silicon That was silicon,

but it didn’t work really actually You didn't use it, ok.

It was the...I don’t know,

they didn’t send a good equipment,

because its useful for research, that is a fabrication for... Its actually a pilot plant.

It is for industry that is used.

Yes. See we can’t use the industrial unit,

we don’t have so much of material to put that. Exactly.

So that was a waste actually,

planning I would say it was not good. Ok.

They should have got a smaller one.

But there used to be Professor Koch,

who...who has come all the way from Germany

with all this equipment. Yeah yeah yeah.

How was your interaction with him?

So, he taught us also semiconductor in the class.

We can...see in M. Sc. we had three specialization,

one is X-ray, semiconductor physics and microwave

So I took Microwave used to be taken care by Professor

Shobhanadri. Shobhanadri, yeah I forgot to mention,

he's also from beginning, Shobhanadri. I think he and Professor

Ramasastry, R. Srinivasan joined almost at the same time.

Same time I think Its around the same time.

Yeah, same time.

So, he used to take also electronics lab.

Our Shobhanadri. Wonderful.

And, it was good. What was your research topic?

My research topic is actually mine thing was

field effector and semiconductor.

Ok.

Mostly whatever samples are

available were brought by Professor Ramasastry.

Few silicon wafers, few germanium wafers

I used to cut and...with the diamond curve,

I used to take the help of glass flowing section.

Glass flowing. They used to cut glass.

So the silicon crystals also can be cut by glass.

So that also technique I learn, how to cut this...

putting a scale and putting that...

it was a nice experience, to...in earlier days.

So I used to cut this,

then I have to do simple oxidation.

You might have seen some of our, what is that?

Oxidation furnaces.

furnace built by us,

that is quartz tube, of about two, three inches.

We had a good glass...glass flowing section. In those days.

Who is that person, who is a foreman? Venugopal.

Venugopal, before that. Before that is

Kumaraswamy. Kumaraswamy.

Kumaraswamy, they really helped us.

So, I still feel such facilities are required.

See now when I visited some time back,

it was almost in a...nothing is going on there in

that glass building section. Yeah, but people are going to advance.

Since its No no see it was

It was catering to Chemical Engineering,

Yeah. Chemistry and Physics.

So now, I don’t know how people do... Yeah, coming back to your Ph. D. thesis

you have attended the convocation for receiving your degree.

Yeah yeah. You remember the great man who awarded the degree to you?

Tell us a few words about. Yeah yeah yeah, M. Sc., M. Sc. at that time,

who came, yeah great that Raman, Not M. Sc.

C. V. Raman came for my M. Sc. degree M. Sc., C. V. Raman.

I...I actually I finished in '65,

but, the convocation was in '66.

Ok.

So I got my paper, why it happened is, that '65 batch,

they preponed the...their degree.

Ok. I don’t know at the time some war was there no.

Ok yeah, there was a war So they wanted the engineers to come

fast and help the army and all.

So that was the thing.

So, all those who finished in '65,

M. Sc., they were...the degree was available in '66. Awarded in '66

that was a And you are lucky to have Professor...

Dr. Sir C. V. Raman C. V. Raman, C. V. Raman.

And for my M. Sc., M. S. Swaminathan...

and Ph. D., the chief guest was M. S. Swaminathan