Another aspect that I would like to bring up

is that same period; I don't know, ‘81 or ‘82 onwards.

I had…I was teaching some M. Tech. students,

our M. Tech. students were Nandita Dasgupta,

Amitava Dasgupta, both of them who are

faculty. There was one Rajesh Sanghi

who had come from Air Force.

Somehow I got actually quite friendly with them,

very friendly with bunch of them.

So it was not just undergraduate with M. Tech. students,

actually I found…and this is not about individuals,

but I did find that Master’s students,

and from very early onwards we are noting,

that if you put a Master’s students

and undergraduate students together in the same class,

and I very often used to have.

In performance, the undergraduate students

will perform far superior than Master’s students.

But if you take persistence

in trying to do something,

if I give a difficult problem which will take multiple

days and weeks, you will see our Master’s

student doing very well compared to

our undergraduate students.

This is something that I remember

starting to note from 1983 onwards.

And probably IIT still does not fully understand

that the students who come from other colleges,

but are willing to work very hard,

in long run they are as good, and

probably better than our undergraduate students.

This is something that IIT system did not understand.

I started noticing…to me it came as a surprise,

and of course, I had some very good students and all that.

I was, at the same time, starting to work on

various sub systems, particularly after

that WS Industries, I had delivered that

power-line carrier communication, and the only person

who was building systems in the

department for anyone was Professor J. P. Raina

in what we later on termed as Fiber Optics Lab.

I started taking interest in his work

and saw that what he is

trying to build is relatively simple.

His contacts were huge. He had huge defence contacts,

he has contacts in…DRDO,

he had contacts in Ministry of Electronics,

he was very aggressive person,

so he will go and sell them something.

But I also noticed that it…it

particularly since most of…were communication system

he didn't have very good idea how to build it.

But that’s where I came in;

I learnt how to build it.

So one of the first project

that Professor Raina and I did together

was a very interesting project and

tells you a lot about India.

The people from CVRD had come

some defence officers had come,

senior people from DRDO

and said the new people are working on optical fiber

and Professor Raina was just starting to

work on optical fiber.

And he had said what I would

what they would like to do was build a

fiber optic communication system for a battle tank.

Within the tank have a network. Within the tank,

little surprised.

We went and visited CVRD

and I found that the inside of the tank

in which 5 people used to sit

was no bigger than this circle,

in fact, smaller than this.

And everybody would set with their face outward

with that they will not see each other.

Had they said that the we want a fiber optic system

for them to talk to each other.

I said why they are just next to each other?

They made me go on a ride

and I saw that the tank he was making huge noise.

The noise was so much that we

couldn't talk to each other.

So, there is a only way we could do

it using headphones and cables.

So, that's what they were using.

Where did fiber optics come from?

You are talking about 1, 2 maybe 3 voice conversation,

we used to talk about something which

can multiply 64 voice signals and lot of data signals.

Here they were talking about 3, 4 of this and

maybe a few indicator somebody will turn

their light will go on very little data communication,

very little voice communication.

And I said why is it required

there is an interesting story told to us

I don't know whether story is true,

but is a very interesting story this is a story about

when Pakistan had attacked us with Patton tank.

And the Patton tank coming from US was so powerful,

the Pakistani army was marching with the tank

and our we could not just defend anything that

we will shoot at the tank will just

go for a toss it will not penetrate.

The story actually went that till somebody actually

figured out that they will put a person

who will bend down and kind of hide in bushes.

And when the tank will come he will run down

climb up the tank open the hood throw a bomb

and run for his life and he says that is how

India battled and won against Pakistan

in one of the tank.

But what I was told that things became more complicated

even when our tanks were getting deployed

that were nothing else will penetrate,

the confusion was created by a

electronic gun which will just shoot

a radio waves and somehow it will

penetrate the tank at some frequency.

And will create so much of noise

in those cables that it will be

impossible for people to talk to each other

they will put the headphone down

and they will no longer be able to talk to each other.

And if they are not talking to each other gunner is

pointing in direction different from what they should point,

the driver who is taking in one direction,

commander is asking you to do something

and there will be chaos that's a time they will

somebody will run and throw a bomb.

And somebody had told them

that optical fiber no electromagnetic wave

can penetrate which we knew and maybe it can,

if you can make that it will be something that

nobody will be able to disturb and communication

will be very sound very good. They challenged us

to make a system like this and I took

it upon myself say sure we'll build a system.

So, our dream about fiber optics and all this

talk was following up that power-line carrier

communication which was carrying

multiplexing 11 voice signals on a cable.

Here we are able to do hundreds of voice signals

on a cable and here we are actually backed down

to where bandwidth didn't matter where distance

did not matter and we are going to do this

we took upon ourselves to build a system like this.

I don't remember who had funded it, but we built it.

And as we were building it

Rajesh Sanghi who was a M. Tech student from Air Force

deputed here, he was already becoming close

to me and he started working on this project.

And we built this project and having a Air Force officer

and was a huge help because he will do all

the interface with CVRD and with the army officers

and was able to do much better than we could.

He would go get it deployed in the tank test it out,

claimed do everything

and the system was doing very well.

Of course, a tragedy took place

then one day we heard that he was doing this

and the tank was running and they were going and

they will go through difficult terrain tank would,

it was a main battle tank and

it was a just about being tested

and while doing it the tank overturned.

And Rajesh Sanghi hit got hit

his bone here was broken.

Well he was hospitalized, he was cheerful,

he didn't blame us and for him

this is a part of being in the armed forces,

Air Force you get injured this will heal

and we did realize that this will heal.

But it was also clear that with this

small defect that he has in hand

he won't be promoted very high

because there was a rule in these

armed forces and Air Force that up to a certain

rank walls only you can go if you have had

some kind of injury which stays permanent.

So, he was very bright officers did quite well

in the exam man courses and did everything

and done the project.

What will he do?

Meantime we also saw him as a great asset

to our system building effort that here is a person who

would be able to not only translate the defence ideas to us,

but be able to also carry it all the way

to the inside the defence.

And we were now getting contracts from defence you

build this system, build something for aircraft

15 53, 17 73 bus fiber optic system

and we are quite willing to take up this things,

we had by this time 30, 40 people working with us.

I remember we are making we had made

2 megabyte per second system,

8 megabyte per second system,

34 megabyte per second were

just about getting to build.

And we proposed a project I think it was a

Ministry of Electronics plus some defence agency

was also there and we said we will go and build

140 megabyte per second it was state of art

nobody else in the world was in built a

one more 40 megabyte per second.

And I remember going to the meeting in Delhi

it was at IIT Delhi making a presentation,

he says there is nothing here that we don't understand

and I had learnt how to build multiplexing and

everything quite well and the basic challenge is in

actually doing things.

So, we will fail a few times, but

we are better positioned to build

this than any other person.

If any other person can build it in the country

we will be happy we are not the,

but if nobody else can we need to.

Otherwise, forever we will be dependent

and not only one ah megabyte per second

tomorrow 565 everything will be imported

and when I said all this with my passion

they immediately sanctioned plus projects.

So, we had enough money we had large money.

Fortunately, number of our alumni also

were get particularly the ones who were very friendly to us

people like Deepak Khanchandani

who would come back to us.

He they had joined semiconductor complex

the place closed down did not do very well

he was lost and he would come back to us

and work with us. So, we had talent,

we had people we were able to take

students from engineering colleges nearby;

we were able to take students from

engineering colleges nearby.

By that time that had started proliferating

and we were able to train them and do well.

But to be able to do some of these things

we wanted Doctor Sanghi to be with us.

He says you will love to do his PhD with me,

but how does he do that?

Defence will Air Force will not release him,

but we had enough defence project.

So, I remember we had gone all the way

to the scientific Professor I think Abdul Kalam at that time

the DRDO head and myself Professor Raina

went and said we can build all these things we need him to be.

He will do his PhD also please permit him

hence I knew that if you were honest and

speaking and were ready to do something the rules

can be bend and this is what Professor Indiresan

used to always teach us.

You know there are these rules you must understand that,

if you go and try to hit against the rules

you will never be able to penetrate him

there is a huge barrier,

you have to learn to bend the rules.

Ok, it's interesting that you say it because

there is a story I have heard when uh Professor Paulraj

again coming from defence was doing his

M. Tech at IIT Delhi under Professor Indiresan

he saw that Paulraj was very bright,

he wanted him to continue for PhD

and rules didn't permit and he somehow got the rules bent.

So, that Paulraj continues for his PhD

and built the sonar is what I I mean

I don't know if the story is correct,

but this story I have heard.

Must be correct Professor Indiresan

always taught us he will always point out.

And by the time; by the time guidance

and counselling unit had happened he was

I was quite close to him and as I told you

he tried to teach a course also along with me.

And I could reach him and he was very

enthused that I am just trying to do this

he was fully encouraging us.

Let me tell you the rest of the department was

not very friendly to Professor Raina

there was a huge conflict and since

I was working with Professor Raina

they used to also watch me with huge

kind of suspicion.

But people like Professor Radhakrishna Rao,

Professor V G K Murthy

is to know that I am very sincere and

used to kind of encourage me.

So, here we are able to get Doctor Sanghi

and he became one of my early PhD students

of course, I had one or two other one person had

worked on surface acoustic devices one.

Thing about this me I had done my PhD

in surface acoustical devices this is where I could

easily do work publish I did not need anything

except computers I had my first PhD

student Elizabeth Elias who did her PhD work with me.

Actually largely it was understanding this

and then software programming,

but I was bored with that work.

And here is a much more interesting work

that I was doing whether I was doing for main

battle tank or for the aircraft or for

doing things, I got more interested

in fiber optics and system development.

If you remember it was in the process of

doing this that I made a

fiber optic multiplexing kit.

I have taught in United States

for 2 years only and I was teaching here

I knew our students were brighter,

but there was one difference their labs

they used to learn much more than our labs.

Our labs were very boring routine

there was one instrument

that was expensive and we would only take

people and somebody will operate

that instrument and they will take reading

there is no fun very little learning,

this is something that I had

noticed about labs here.

Whereas lab in United States where

there was some kind of full kit given to each

student individually.

And a problem will be given to them

and they will have to build it and is

saw they were used to do it

we used to give them a week before,

they used to prepare for it come,

we'll have a discussion in the beginning,

get them going in the middle of this

we will go around each desk, help them.

There is a huge learning for them and for us

out here the labs had no learning.

The students were bored, they used to cut corners.

I had been talking to head of the department

other senior faculty that why can't we create,

so many kits and people

sort of said well we don't have money.

So, this kind of inspired me that

we can build the kits and make it low cost.

And since I had learned enough about

multiplexing a lot of interesting things

you can teach about multiplexing,

the synchronisation, lack of synchronisation,

bit synchronisation, byte synchronisation,

clock synchronisation, failure of that,

multiplexing, channel switching time switching

all of this you could do in a fiber optic kit.

And I had got a undergraduate student

to work with me to build that kit

and we had commercialised that.

I will talk more about it initially

with universal then with my benchmark systems

I will talk more about it, till today

I am known in colleges all over the country

as a person who had designed that kit.

Even today I get 40 year 35 years

down the line I we every year

get some royalties on that kit.

That kit has taught simple multiplexing and

communication to very large

number of people all over the country.

We'll come back to that later on,

but what I was pointing out that we were

building systems initially for defence and

for Minister of Electronics and building

complex system and used to employ a

large number of people.

At the same time the industry was showing some interest.

So, while I used to work on this defence project

and other projects with Professor Raina

some industries were coming to me personally

and I was in laser communication lab

building some of the projects and employing them.

There is a interesting thing that I want to point out

it's about India and about Tamil Nadu.

In my first year after I came here

very often I will find that somebody

totally unknown to me comes to me

with his son or a daughter

15, 16 year old son and daughter

they will somehow get to meet me.

And basically talk to me only one thing

meet my son meet, see my daughter,

how bright they are, how well they are doing in school

they want to study engineering,

get them admission in IIT,

help them get the admission.

By knew now I knew enough about JE of course

I myself was had done JE I knew that IIT

there was not no possibility and I used to

sort of say they have to write this exam they said

they will not get through.

Then I said well then you have to go to other colleges

and they will say they are not there are no

colleges and they are we cannot get in.

At that time '82 or '83 I '82 I remember

doing some study and I found that there were hardly about

100 engineering colleges around the country

having only 20,000 students.

That time we are closing to 800 million population

20,000 students, people were hungry

to learn there are no engineering colleges.

And this is a time '84 or '85, '84

probably or '85 MGR and Jayalalitha came up

with a policy of private engineering colleges,

set up this private engineering colleges.

IIT was huge was fully opposed to it

everybody used to sort of say there will be poor teacher,

poor quality, it is a money making,

they will take large amount of money.

And it was truth also many of these

colleges were very poor quality,

money making proposition for some politicians.

But there are also colleges which were

attempting to teach them.

Initially I was opposing that just like

any other IIT, but soon realized that

when we have denied the children opportunity

to learn engineering and this is providing them

is it fair on our part to oppose them.

Remember this is the first the time

here the IIT ecosystem says that

we should oppose them quality; quality; quality,

superiority first time started questioning all of these things.

Partly my PPSD background probably helped

and I had to often stand against our own colleagues

and sort of say no you should allow them.

And you know incidentally what helped

that children of many of the faculty.

yeah who are not getting into IIT and

were trying to send it to this

started siding with me,

what I am pointing out that I this is the; this is the first time

and I was very young at that time,

I stood against IIT opinion.

Long run I think it was a very very important thing,

I started talking about it.

Of course, process was going on independent of me,

but this large number of engineering colleges were coming up

and these youngsters were getting trained.

And we suddenly found that we will I will be able to

recruit them as a project staff for our M. Tech or

things like that and they were doing very well,

they of course, I realized by now that

there were some colleges where they will getting some minimum

training not enough.

But the youngsters were

very bright after all the students who got into IIT

and didn't get into IIT the marked difference was hardly anything

by now I had figured out the whole JE

there was hardly anything they were

very bright they didn't get the opportunity.

And you provided them opportunity in your lab

initially in fiber Optics Communication Lab

laser on later on Laser Communication Lab

and they will flower up.

And I already had seen

our M. Tech students who came from tier 2. Colleges

Colleges were doing well.

And suddenly I found that

well all you need to do is give them opportunity

push them train them hard you have to do a little more

personal handholding create

confidence that they are doing big things.

And they will come become very good technologist.

This was a very important lesson that I

learned as early as '86, '87, '88

which I actually continued.

And whether I did

whatever I have done till from that time till today

that that there is a law in India

the biggest strength it is human resources.

Yes IIT is one thing, but it doesn't matter

that is very large I was not now bothered that

IIT students will go abroad let them.

There are enough others; there are enough others

and all that we need to do is train them

push them hard and they will deliver

this is something that we saw

do happening again and again.

I will tell you couple of other things that happened

which actually started changing my whole

mind frame which you will see.

Two incidents I remember was happening in India

other than the engineering college,

you know at that time the only washing powder that

we had in India was Surf or known.

I used to also buy that it was expensive.

So, I used to buy and use it occasionally

rest of the time used to use the soap

and that time suddenly we heard of Nirma,

huge advertisement in radio

and think that you will hear about Nirma

it is a very poor quality washing powder,

it will burn your hands.

Very similar to the way we IIT will talk about it's

private engineering college is a very

similar putting down this,

but large number it was very inexpensive one fourth

the price of

and I started was occasionally using

it little care and it cleaned.

It had a little more bleaching so

it hurt the hand a bit you have to care be careful,

it cleaned the clothes very well of course it

hurt the clothes also in long run, but

how did it matter.

I certainly found that Nirma crossed the total sales

on Surf and became the dominant

and Surf was going on opposing with all

intellectuals like us supporting them this is a

quality product and that is poor quality.

And suddenly we found after some time

when the that will nearly lost the market from

dominant situation that they came with a cheaper

powder very similar to Nirma powder.

And then we realized that what

India is I learnt about India that India

is a large market for affordable product.

Surf was only to service 4, 5

percent of our population,

high cost similar to maybe the cost abroad

only a few percentage of people will be able to afford it.

But if you are able to get the product at the right

price point the market becomes very large and new

industries can come up.

It gave a huge

huge impetus to me that new industries can be

created only if you can make

product which are affordable.

Whole scenario thinking started changing

a second very similar incident took place

with telecom by that time

Rajiv Gandhi was in power hm and he brought

this person Sam Pitroda from somewhere.

And I remember getting invited in one meeting

because I was doing enough with industry and all that.

And that is a place where he was talking about

why number of telephones are limited and you

cannot uh give enough phones and

you know making a long distance call.

I remember in IIT Kanpur

I in my 5 years I made 2 calls to home.

The reason number one I had to wait between 4 to 6 hours

to after booking a call to get a call,

I had to wait outside the telephone exchange

you will book and you will wait outside

and you will get a call suddenly the trunk call is now available

and you can make a call.

The cost of that call was equivalent to

30 percent of my monthly mess bill

one call, you could neither afford

and you had a long waiting period.

So, in one of the conversation that took place in Delhi

with Sam Pitroda people pointed out yes

number of trunk lines are limited and by the way

where we are building power-line carrier communication

or fiber optic multiplexing primarily to increase the

number of trunk lines between cities

that was the objective by that time

I had understood.

If we can build that enough we can,

but it was expensive and so the calls will be expensive.

Till somebody pointed out

then in the night time these were hardly ever used,

it was empty and the telephones were not available

and that time in one of the meeting

basically the idea came that why can't

we create this FL telephone we will put a

telephone at a FL shop and people will

go and make a call pay for it.

And maybe in the night time we will make STD

calls at evening time half rate

night time quarter rates

everybody in department was opposed loss of revenue

this that same thing that you hear,

Sam Pitroda took the decision I will do that.

And I remember he is asking me that,

but you know my STD PCO machine is expensive.

Can you build a low cost metering

which will tell how much is the bill,

so that the person can pay?

And I think we took up and I was I remember

there was one one Sanjay Gupta undergraduate student

with him actually I built that

and I gave it to him in the meantime

multiple things were built and this STD PCO started

what is very interesting this STD

PCO started and very soon it was there

in every street corner we had initially planned

10,000 of them it became 100,000

and more many more.

This STD PCO really moved me because

what I found I myself could go there and make calls,

but people used to stand in queues

to make call in the evenings

they used to wait for 8 PM.

And then 11 PM. Yeah

And people will make calls and

people are very happy and it was became affordable.

So, I suddenly saw affordability has huge power

and this STD PCO person was actually

making enough money initially the government had talked about

subsidy very soon it was forgotten this FL,

it it was no longer a FL shop

it became a STD PCO itself

and the person started selling multiple other things. Yeah

the business grew these were entrepreneurs who were growing

and we had suddenly created

I think a million PCOs over that 2, 3 years.

We went to remote areas and created that,

that area will get developed there are enough storeys

that I remember going through

where in a remote area this place will do.

Because there is a now STD PCO

there the women will be more easy ready to

come and first the all the

car auto repair shops will come around,

people will make it a taxi stand, bus stand will come

some small factories will set up.

Women will be more ready to come and work there

because that phone provided them safety

and that whole area will develop.

I suddenly realize that entrepreneurship

both with Nirma and this STD PCO is

what India needs affordable technology

is what India needs entrepreneurship

and affordable technology will make India grow

more rapidly than anything else,

by this time my dream of or thinking that politics

will change things had gone.

Now, I have totally I mean particularly after that

Sikh riots that took place completely shook me.

And then the Bhopal gas FL I knew

politics is not the right thing.

And entrepreneurship and affordable

technology developed in India.

Training the human strength resources our biggest strength

creating large human resources engineering manpower,

training them IIT cannot remain in its own

elite structure, it has to reach out to them,

work with them masters,

but project staff

project staff became very important.

Train them, take up projects, do things, work with industry,

transform industry this basically

was my early learning from 1981 till '86, '87.

Entrepreneurship will become the best way

for countries development.

Affordable technology is the only way

that India will developed its market.

And India has large market

if the products are affordable,

it can change the game

and we have to believe on our human resources.

My thinking considerably changed

and it is at this stage that I started

looking at larger issues.

And very fortunately

after a lot of battle within the department,

I said we have to allow people to come in

7 years, 8 years before me

nobody had come, 7 years after I came nobody.

Joined or 6 years till we pulled in and I helped

in getting Bhaskar Ramamurthi, Anthony Reddy asked me.

to get it and I somehow pushed it.

Professor Indiresan tried his best to change IIT

this place was too conservative would not allow him to change.

That conservative trend continues even today

and is a huge difference between IIT Kanpur

and IIT madras in that.

Even today if we are not doing better than

what we should it is because of that conservatism.

And one thing that I learnt that you have to fight against

conservating you have to take risk.

And whether we did wireless in local loop or where we did

this we started incubating companies Banyan,

Midas whether we created research park

or incubation cell or our work electric vehicles

or solar DC was always defying the

tradition I am doing something new.

Another thing I would like to end today

by stating that if you see from surface acoustic wave

I had got into digital circuits and systems,

microprocessor based systems,

fiber optic systems and next was wireless.

If you say I had never stayed in one area.

In fact, my 8 PhD students have worked in 8

totally different areas everything you start from

scratch and do it.

This is not what IIT does,

IIT to some extent doesn't even respect that.

this whole thing that you have to publish,

yes you have to be in a one area,

you have to build the ecosystem their whole

what is this called h index etcetera comes from all that

here you are jumping from one thing to another.

I had made my path very clear

that I am not going to follow the tradition

and I will fight against all conservative thing

and in spite of everything I will do,

IIT continues to be conservative

and still becomes a bottleneck on many things.

I have questions on that, I think we we will take it up

about how you know this this this 2 models

of university based education or

research you know we can reconcile, yes.

Good morning.

Good morning Sundar.

I am so happy that. Yeah, yeah.

Very happy to have you here again.

I am very happy I am happy. At IIT Madras for this conversation.

Of course, I was your student and I did my Ph.D. here.

Our student. Yeah.

So, in fact I used to really enjoy your lectures,

your style of teaching,

also your way of helping the students at various stages.

And, in fact that period was really one of the best

student period which I have I ever seen in my student life

at IIT Madras, and in particular that Department of Mathematics.

And even further with Professor S.N. Majhi is always a

special thing not only to me

it is also for all the students who were there at that time.

So, we are very happy to have you here today for this conversation.

And thanks for coming.

In fact, I must thank Professor Achuthan, your guide.

Oh ok.

Wonderful person and he brought you in contact with us.

Yeah. And I was so fortunate to have research scholars like you

who used to be very helpful to every aspect of our department's life activities.

it’s it’s good that we are recalling Professor P. Achuthan, it is nice sir.

Please tell me about your the first day at IIT Madras,

which many of us knew about through our Heritage Centre.

But listening from a person

where that is at the beginning of IIT Madras

it would be very fantastic.

So, please tell me about your career or your

even from the first day in a very short form from IIT Madras until you are,

you are professor at IIT Madras until your super envision.

In a nutshell, I will give you something before my joining here.

Yes sir, please sir.

I was the student of M.Sc. in Banaras Hindu University.

I did not know at that time there is a Ph.D. beyond M.Sc. also.

ok. After my passing out from Banaras Hindu University

with a good division and rank also.

Which was what year sir? Banaras. M.Sc.

Hindu University that was 1964 actually. Ok, sir.

I joined 62 and came out.

64, in 64. 64, I was offered a job in Khallikote College.

Ok. Brahmapur, Orissa.

I joined that because it was my college also

when I was studying my intermediate.

Ok. Then, I realised if there is a higher degree available

and I have to do that. ok.

So, I wanted to go to to BHU again for my research in real analysis.

Ok. In between,

one of my good friend he wrote to me, why do not you come to IIT Madras?

Who asked that?

Gopala Krishnan. Ok.

One Professor Gopala Krishnan, who was my classmate at Banaras. Ok.

He joined here as a research scholar.

So, he wrote to me why don't you come over here?

So, he is he was also belong the student of mathematics?

Right, right, my classmate. Ok, ok, ok.

In fact, he was also with Khallikote College for few months

then he left, joined here.

That is where I got the idea I have to do my Ph.D. So,

through your classmate you came to know that

there is one Indian Institute of Technology. Technology

At Madras.

Then, I applied, I came here for interview.

Ok. First day, I stayed in Gopala Krishnan’s room in Kaveri hostel.

Oh, great. That was Kaveri hostel day.

It was a beautiful gathering, lot of cultural programme

and the lecture of our director at that time.

What was the month? Ramachandran.

Month roughly

July or? September I think September.

1964 65.

65, ok, ok sorry.

Then somehow I got impressed I wanted to join,

but at the same time I used to like my the BHU guide

with whom I wanted to do also.

So, I went to BHU, I got a scholarship also from UGC.

Ok. So, I went to BHU, thought of

working with my favourite faculty up there.

But when he heard I got a scholarship at IIT Madras,

immediately told that I won't take you now.

Oh, You go to IIT Madras.

You got such a good offer and you please go over there.

I was with heavy heart, I came

and. So, when you are student even that time

one of the very prominent,

one of the most sought after institute is IIT Madras.

Yes. Till till today IIT Madras is

is maintaining that reputation.

It is nice to know that.

And I came, joined my guide after some time,

it was personally come fortunately because Great, great.

He was also a guide of my friend Gopala Krishnan. Ok, ok, ok.

So, we both from BHU.

So, Professor S. D. Nigam. Nigam.

So, who is one of pioneer in fluid dynamics.

Fluid he asked me one day,

do you know what is fluid mechanics? Oh, ok

I told I know the meaning of fluid,

I know the meaning of mechanics

but inside of fluid mechanics

I am not much informed. Ok, ok.

You join here in fluid mechanics that is how I joined

and did my research under his guidance, very efficient guide.

I think you know he is passed, no more. Oh, yeah.

2014 he expired.

He is a stalwart

and he was having lot of reputation internationally

and we are very fortunate he guided us.

Sir, if I remember correctly when I came to know about IIT Madras

mathematics department,

they always talk about two main personalities,

one is Professor S. D. Nigam and another is Professor is S. K. Srinivasan.

Right, you are right. So, you are the student of

Professor S. D. Nigam which is really and

And Professor Srinivasan wonderful soul,

very sympathetic kind.

Both Professor Srinivasan and Professor S. D. Nigam

are very good friends, good understanding.

I think you know that

when the institute started one Professor Hoon.

From. He guided the department’s activities as

head of the Department.

Then, Professor S. K. Srinivasan joined as assistant professor,

he was head of the department. Ok.

Heading the department.

Then of course, he become professor and

he happens to be a student of Alladi Ramakrishnan,

Professor Alladi Ramakrishnan. Ramakrishnan.

The math science fame.

Institute of Mathematical Sciences. Yes,

math science started in 1962,

but Professor Srinivasan was a student in the University of Madras.

Ok. From there he got his degree.

And Professor Srinivasan whose student was Professor Achuthan.

Yes. And theoretical physics

he was also a stochastic process stalwart, operational research.

He wrote quite number of good books Professor Srinivasan.

Soft spoken person.

He guided the department very nicely

and in cooperation with Professor Nigam.

Yeah. Though Professor Nigam has taken the headship,

I think it was 62

Professor Nigam came from Kharagpur IIT.

Ok to IIT Madras, ok Yes.

So, he joined here and headed the department.

How was your Ph.D. student?

As a student career you mean? Yeah.

Actually our day used to start at 7:30

and used to end at 12:30 night.

Ok. You know used to be there along with us Professor Nigam

also used to be with us,

not he alone, his students his scholars,

even some of the engineering Ph.D. scholars used to come.

Ok. To take his guidance, his suggestions,

clarification of some doubts etc.

He is a wonderful guide and teacher.

So, that time you mean to say your

day begins at 7:30 in the morning.

So, you finish your breakfast at Kaveri hostel then.

In between, we used to go and come. Ok.

And Professor Nigam also used to go and come.

I remember when he bought his first ambassador. Ok.

He was quite happy that the period of going coming will be sorted.

Ok. Earlier used to go by cycle and sometimes by walk.

Ok. But after his ambassador arrived,

he was quite happy that he is coming quite early and

and also can go comfortably.

So, the department right now in HSB in first floor.

So, it is in the same location? Same location.

Or. Same location.

And our group of research scholars under him

Sir Professor S. D. S. D. Nigam Used to find.

fluid dynamics team.

Fluid mechanics group. Yeah.

We find a kind of family atmosphere. Oh, great.

We helping each other,

discussing each other’s problem

in presence of Professor Nigam.

I remember one thing,

I have to do some calculations for my thesis

and you know once with other is on machine Brunswick. Yes.

Calculating machine was there are two types of things,

and I used to use that.

It took me almost 6 months to produce my numerical results. Oh.

But in between, I think

Guindy Engineering College,

they got a computer and they gave some slot for IIT Madras.

Ok. So, our IIT Madras students used to go there,

faculty as well as students, but there is a queue heavy queue.

So, many people go there in that slot.

So, we mathematics department people generally.

Even I remember during my time as a Ph.D.,

we used to go to as a Ph.D. scholar

we used to go to computer centre and get the.

Oh yeah. Our slot for for the numerical computation,

we need to get our slot.

We go in the morning and.

Yeah. Try to book our slot.

In fact, in between German government offered

the advanced computer at that time to our.

Alright. IIT and they offered our IIT

requested our department to look after that.

Ok. Under their care.

At that time Professor Nigam was hesitant

because he is not very sure how he can

organize, manage, he excused himself. Ok.

At that time Professor Sampath was

there in the electrical engineering department. Ok.

I think he was the head.

He readily agreed that he will look after that. Ok.

So, that is how the computer aspects,

the centre started under the electrical

engineer department. Electrical department. Oh, nice nice to know sir.

Then it separated. Sir, how many years you

took to complete your Ph.D.?

To be very frank, it is a very

a great privilege to be a student of Professor Nigam.

Yes sir.

He brings beautiful ideas.

He inspires the students to bring the suggestions from themselves,

though he knows what suggestions come out

because he has already built within us, the ideas and suggestions.

Ok, nice. After we bring the suggestions

and the problem is defined, he used to appreciate us.

Nice sir.

And every day, there are 5 to 6 research scholars who are there,

he will call us each one of us he will give half an hour almost.

Oh, everyday. Everyday.

Oh, good sir.

Sometimes suppose we are busy

and he does not want to disturb us,

he can guess, he will come and stand behind us.

Ok. He won’t talk and stand behind us

and we know that he has come to know what we are doing.

We explain him, then he goes.

Like that I brought my problems within a span of 18 months.

Oh. All my thesis problems are defined.

Very nice. Another say 5 to 6 months the solutions are all ready.

Good sir. Another 4 to 5 months I wrote my thesis.

So, you finished the everything your entire thesis work in 3 years time.

Because 3 year oh. In fact less than 3 years.

But I used to take our analysis to give lectures elsewhere.

Ok. Our problems, he will take and give lectures also in our presence.

Oh, very good.

Somebody is asking a question, he will point out the finger to us.

So, that shows the. Though he can answer.

That shows. But he wanted us.

That is how he used to make us understand the whole

situation very clearly and used to also discuss among ourselves.

In his presence we used to discuss ourselves also,

the problem of our problem with others

that is how the thesis get shaped.

And writing also, the longest part of it,

the wordings, everything he will inspire and bring out of us.

So, that is the basically the the pillars. Inspiration. And

where the department has groomed to this level.

So, I wanted to inform you that because

share you this information last 2 years,

in fact last 3 years our department

is one of the top 200

QS world ranking and subject-wise mathematics.

Yes, I have

read that news also

on IIT. Even IIT 17 this is top top 200,

200 rank and this one among the

the mathematics department in India,

we are ranked number 1 along with IIT Bombay and

other institutes as per the QS, you know, world ranking.

So, it is the the pillar set by Professor Nigam,

Professor S. K. Srinivasan and further pillar set by

Professor Majhi and others

who brought the department to this level.

So, just I wanted to share this information you are keeping. Thank you.

Still this same tradition.

So, and after your Ph.D. you immediately joined here as a faculty

as a lecturer or you went somewhere and come and came back?

In fact, I joined as a research scholar 65, 1965.

Got my Ph.D. in 69 ok

convocation.

But my. Since you said it is a convocation, today

IIT Madras it is very clear July

3rd Friday is the convocation day.

What was the convocation day during that time in 1960?

Frankly, I do not remember this. Ok.

But we use to have our convocation in the Open Air Theatre. Ok.

Open Air Theatre. I I was talking something about.

Yeah that there is you said. Joining. Joining.

68 I joined as a technical assistant, senior technical assistant.

I will tell you the reason though there was an offer for

associate lecturership, Professor Nigam called me, he told me

associate lectureship is higher level posts

than STA that is good that we can offer you, but it is a temporary post.

It is not a kind of a permanent.

Ok. I will suggest you take senior technical assistant position.

Ok. And it would be a permanent position.

So, want you here with us. Ok.

Because if you join as associate lecturer you may like to go somewhere else.

It cannot be a permanent you see.

That is how joined in technical. Ok.

But this is not much of difference in our status in the department.

They used to honour, all of us used to honour each other.

Position is immaterial.

So, when you joined as STA,

the 1968, how many faculty were there in the department?

I think there was around 15 to 17 faculty were there.

Oh, ok. And technical assistant, I think 3 of us.

Even Professor Achuthan joined also a technical assistant. ok, ok

He is one of the very very intelligent and very

good person with heart, in his heart,

help helping nature, and intelligent knowledgeable.

Then as an STA we used also teach M.Sc. classes, there is no bar. Ok.

We are basically faculty as such, though we are called technical assistance.

Ok, ok. Of course, then you are given the promotion to lectureship.

When did you? After 3 years.

Oh, after 3 years you got the.

Some maybe 72 around.

So, Professor Majhi, when I during my period as a

as a student from outside when I before entering to IIT Madras,

whenever we say about the fluid dynamics,

fluid mechanics, continuum mechanics area and

in particular that is in general across the world

your your name is very well-known.

And also in particular in Indian,

across India various institutes those who are working in this

same area they know about you are a well-known

a researcher and well-known teacher.

And how did you from the research point of view,

how did you, till you are student of

Professor S. D. Nigam that is one part.

But after that when you joined as a faculty

and along with Professor S. D. Nigam,

but you have created your own

domain of research and you have excelled.

So, please share share your views on how did you?

Yeah, fluid mechanics. For this.

The basic thing I did my research.

I had interaction with the engineering departments also.

There was one Matthews who was working in applied mechanics,

he used to come and sit with me for his research work.

Ok. And also those he was with the German guide,

but he used to come and sit with us, and

some of our work jointly published which found in books also.

That is how I got an inspiration to go towards engineering side.

Application of. Ok.

Fluid mechanics in engineering side. Ok, ok, ok.

Later you know the space science developed. Yes.

And people have gone to the space.

Then the microgravity aspects

how it affects our system that attracted my attention.

We all are grown under one gravity,

on the earth from childhood to the adulthood,

but when we go up there, there is no gravity or microgravity

let us so how the things will effect that area attracted me.

I did some work in that area along with two of my students.

Oh. In fact, during our international conference

I am not able to remember his name, he visited

though it is there in my tongue tip

he visited and I had a discussion with him.

Ok. Then, he saw something new in my discussion.

Ok. Then, he asked did you,

can you experimentally prove it he asked. The Bolus Flow.

Ok. It is called Bolus Flow. The flow of blood

goes in our arteries or veins even capillaries with certain gaps in between.

Ok. So, one Megha Singh was there in applied mechanics. Oh, Professor

Megha Singh. Professor Megha Singh.

Yeah. We both went to

Japan to attend an international conference.

During our visit we discussed at certain aspects

he told I have facilities in my lab in IIT Madras of course.

Then he did some experiment and our theoretical things are all there.

Oh. Experimentally, it is proved.

Oh. And one of his students submitted the thesis also

in that experiment things. Oh, that time itself you nicely

put your theory and compared with the

experiment and. Experiments

It was really.

So, this is how I diverted towards the microgravity.

Ok. Analysis, and so I did in mathematical modelling also certain aspects.

Like that my area become fluid mechanics,

micro gravity, mathematical modelling. Very good sir. Nice

Sir I want to ask you one thing just

during your time here as a faculty,

you have taken over some some important

positions, administrative positions.

For example, you are a secretary of Film Club.

Film Society it is called. And till today

Film Club film.

Film Society. Film Society. Is also a treasurer.

Yeah. Today if you look at the OAT that Saturday

8 o’clock come what may exactly 8 o’clock, there will be a movie.

Today, it has gone to a much digital and an advanced

level OAT is one of the best place to view the movies.

So, how was those days when you started your

this Film Society activities?

In fact, from my childhood I used to like group work,

joining with other people and participating in activities,

society activities in high schools even elementary schools such as.

So, here also that facility was very much there in IIT Madras.

I was a founder member of Faculty Club,

Faculty Association. Oh, Faculty Association.

Where do you also.

I was also president, right. Led that as the chairman of that.

And I was associate of the Staff Club.

Oh, ok or. Then, there was one of our

important person in humanities it is Rama Rao,

suddenly he expired he was associate lecturer

with 2 kids and wife having no sufficient to support

associate lecturer which was not a permanent position. Permanent position.

So, to get pension etc. not there.

So, we wanted to support the family by sharing from among ourselves.

Good sir. So, Professor Nigam

was the chairman of that committee. Ok.

I was the secretary of that committee.

That is how I came in contact with humanities department closely.

Professor Nagendra was at humanities, later he joined our mathematics.

The statistician. I could find a good friend with with him.

One Professor Krishna Rao who is with us no more,

he was also very friendly with us.

In fact, I remember when I was in Kaveri hostel as a research scholar;

he used to come to the Kaveri hostel to play

what is that called table not, yeah.

Table tennis. Table tennis,

he was very interesting. I also developed a good relation.

This Film Society, those Film Club was here at that time,

but Film Society was something different aspect.

Film society is that group of people who are interested in old movies.

Ok. Those movies were what is that called,

there is a some group that is called

I do not remember the name right now.

So, these old films, awarded films,

so those films they wanted to see

in our IIT students. So, you used OAT or

the CLT. Private, private means in rooms.

Rooms, ok, ok. Small rooms. CLT.

Let us say at that time CLT was. CLT was there. Ok.

We used to use it. Ok.

Then Krishna Rao and then suggested

how about having a society of that type

because generally people won’t be interested

to see some the classical movies and old movies,

awarded movies, they wanted this dancing phenomena and Ok.

These love, but these things has some deep rooted philosophy etc.

So, he agreed.

That is how we framed a group in IIT Madras,

got approval of the administration and a society was formed.

Krishna Rao was the chairman and I was the secretary

and one Kesavan happens to be the treasurer.

During that time also we thought of

having one parent teachers forum of Central School.

Our Kendriya

Kendriya Vidyalaya. Oh.

And I was the treasurer of that. Oh.

And that also went on very well.

We saved quite a good amount, then we installed a prize.

Prize means the person alternatively from Central School and Vana Vani,

whose gets the position first position in IIT

selection among the day students he gets that prize.

Still it is continuing. Oh, very nice, very very good.

Another thing I will tell you,

Professor Ananth was professor in charge of Gymkhana, student affairs.

Ok. He called one day, told Professor Majhi

why don't you join with us as a treasurer? So.

And I joined there also.

During my time I found out that are 4 to 5 different

accounts are being maintained, individually people are operating.

I brought to the knowledge of Ananth later also it was Professor Natarajan

who came to that position, I brought to their notice.

There also surprised, how is it happening,

students operating one, some faculty advisor operating one.

No, it should not be.

So, we brought all those amounts in one account,

operated to be operated by 2 people.

Oh, ok. So, today whatever procedure we see

you are the. So, that is going on

very well. You are you are that person

who introduced all those.

And in our department. Changes.

Ramanujan Day celebrations.

Yeah, yeah, yeah

it is also there. That also came.

Even even today December 22nd,

whatever be the case

22nd is the day of we celebrate Ramanujan Day which

where when; when did you start the

the celebrating this? In fact, I must thank you also.

oh, You remember our international conference?

It was when I was a student, it was 1988.

That is first one. Yeah.

And the next one.

It was that is international conference on Industrial Max or.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah that was in 2001,

but in. It is, but in 1987.

Before to that, yes as a student.

Yeah, as a student, ok in 1987

there was a that. Conference.

Big. Yeah, I remember.

International conference on mathematics which was held here

which I remember. So, we during that conference all of you helped us.

so much Yes, yes. And not only. In fact. IIT Madras, also

Institute of Mathematical Sciences and University of Madras combined

together and we had it the entire event took place here.

I even remember sir. Even some

private. As a student, I remember, yeah.

Private engineering colleges. Colleges, yeah.

And all of you conducted. In fact we are all there,

but all the working aspects are done by you. Yeah,

sir we got lot of experience. And there was one

another student with you who has gone to Guindy Engineering College.

Yeah, now he is a Professor M. Venkatesan.

Venkatesan. Yes

And Vetrivel. Yeah, Professor Vetrivel, yes.

And all these people who are

so dynamic that gave us a confidence we raised a lot of funds,

then International Group were there and they are

so appreciative etc. etc.

During that time I think we put a

foundation also about mathematical modelling. Yes.

You went to Germany.

Yeah, I went to.

German. I got the opportunity

because of the conference. Yeah.

I got a some kind of contact

then I went to Germany.

From the conference

you got the contact. Yes, yes, yes.

went and that till today that contact is very strong going on.

Yes sir, yes sir, yes sir, yes sir. During that time we saved lot of funds.

I remember we saved around 40,000 rupees.

Oh, at that time, oh. At that time.

That time sir.

You are really the finance minister of Department of Mathematics.

So, that amount there was lot of discussion we had,

what to be done, we put it in a fixed deposit

and decided to conduct every year

Ramanujan Day celebration. Ok. Yes sir.

In that amount. Till today.

It is. We take that the interest money.

Right. Now, we are getting around say near about

50 to 60,000 which is.

Right. Good enough for us to

organize this 20 century that is the seed which you

you put and that is what which is helping. I am proud of you

actually because you are the flag bearer afterwards. Oh, thank you sir.

Indeed. But Another aspect I remember,

I was given the responsibility of professor in charge of

SCST Oh, that is very nice.

Professor Kuriakose, chemistry department, he was the

student associated professor in charge of student activities.

Ok. He called one day, asked me, in fact

Professor Achuthan was in charge before me.

Ok. Maybe he might have asked Professor Achuthan after you who should be,

Professor Achuthan might have told Professor Majhi is there.

So, he called me, asked me can you join as a adviser to SCST group?

Generally, that confidence as such was not much,

but it was Professor Kuriakose of all the people

and he also qualified his request, don’t worry I am with you.

Oh. So, I did.

So, it’s a it’s a great service you you did.

During that time I will tell you one incident.

One of the Vice Chancellors daughter was our student.

The Vice Chancellor happens to be only a SCST person.

Ok. One of the Vice Chancellors.

One day I asked the daughter because she was getting all facilities

free, hostel free, food, books, etc.,

I asked her would you really need this?

She was bit confused.

I told if you do not need it, this can go to somebody else.

Oh, nice. There will be very much

suffering people and the institute may offer this to that.

She told I will ask my father. Ok.

Next day she came told my father says since it is a privilege,

let us enjoy it. Ok. So, that is one incident I will tell you. Nice

sir. And during that time also, there is some

grants used to come to our section

and we used to manage our things with that,

some get togethers and all those things.

We saved some funds. Oh.

Professor Kuriakose and myself from that we saved some.

It was it was really a great thing And that amount was

put again in a fixed deposit to be given as a

scholarship or some financial aid to required student of SCST.

Oh, nice. I understand that is still going on.

So, I want to ask you the next question.

Today, in Department of Mathematics we have a

programme in Master of Technology in Industrial

Mathematics and Scientific Computing.

And this is one of the the unique programme in India today.

But when it was started I think you are the one of the

the the brain begin, begin this particular programme.

Yes. Because already it is, if I remember it is already 17 years

and now the programme is going in in a in a much

in which it it has got lot of. Yes.

Acceptability across India.

And with lot of collaborations from Germany, from all other

countries, and our students are doing extremely well.

I want to know how this idea came up to start such

Master of Technology in Industrial Mathematics at IIT Madras.

Till today, it is one of the unique program in India.

So, how this thought process came came to you

and you started the course on mathematical modelling in industry.

Till today that is the one of the popular course.

So, how this idea came out? Yes it evolve, it is almost need based.

There was all the time people used to talk with modelling aspects.

In in fact I appreciate one statement;

mathematics is theoretical engineering,

engineering is a applied mathematics.

Ok. So, that statement is very inspiring type

of statement people have always brought.

So, mathematical models are all there,

we thought why not a course can be developed.

I think that course is not evolved here for the first time;

it was there elsewhere in foreign countries.

Yeah, I am. In Germany; at financial.

But in India. Modelling.

That was the.

First time. Yeah.

Then we thought, in fact I always bring Professor Achuthan’s name,

I sat with him we both discussed

how about having a course in mathematical modelling?

Then we thought course in math; is there any books available? We searched.

We got books, then we thought why not frame a course?

Professor Achuthan asked me frame one.

Oh. So, we framed a course,

we got approved by the institute academic section etc.

Then, we offered it, to our surprise quite

number of first it went as an elective

engineering people they offered to come and attend.

Some faculty attended, some research scholars attended.

So, he got encouraged.

So, I gave that course because since I framed the course,

so it was my responsibility to see that it is given.

Yes sir, after your super? envision

it was me who

Prof. S. Sundar: teaching this course till today. Prof. S.N. Majhi: taken up very appropriately very appropriately.

Yeah. And of course, you revised. Now, I see

lot of the modern thoughts have gone into.

Then, we conducted that International Conference of Mathematical

Modelling. Modelling.

Pool from abroad came, they all

discussed, they presented papers, ideas came.

So, this industrial mathematics M.Tech. course

it it is a kind of automatically got generated,

not by any single person.

I think independently 3 to 4 of us we thought about it.

Right sir, right.

At that time Professor Parthasarathy was.

Professor P. R. Parthasarathy. P. R. Parthasarathy

was a head of the department. Head of the department.

And of course, we thought during our time, but

to to take its shape it took time, later debates are there this and that.

Then, Professor Parthasarathy has taken the responsibility after me.

And we framed, that continued, our discussion continued to,

one day Professor Usha came to my room we both sat and framed a write up.

Ok. To be sent to the director, we framed a write up.

This write up it played a good role and you people have gone to Germany.

Yes. And came and that also gave lot of good contact.

Then, there was not much favour in our department as such to start with.

Even in engineering departments there are bit

sceptical asking, how come M.Tech. course in a science department.

Ok. In senate we debated over it.

Oh. In one of the debates it was pointed out

that Delhi IIT has an M.Tech. course in computer science area.

Offered by by maths department. Mathematics department offers it,

that is where Professor Natarajan got an idea

and asked Professor Muthukrishnan to note it.

Oh, Professor R. Natarajan he was in in the director. Director.

Professor Muthukrishnan was deputy director. Deputy Director. Yeah, nice.

Ananth used to be dean of

academic courses. Academic courses. Very nice

those were helped us. They 3 helped us a lot.

And fortunately your good friend from calls what is that.

Is Kaiserslautern.

Kaiserslautern. Technical University.

Good friend.

Professor Helmut Neunzert. He visited.

Helmut Neunzert. And you are also joined

from Kharagpur IIT. True, true, true. To our at that time. Yes.

And that is fair things daily evolve.

And I remember Professor Natarajan

invited what is the German professor? Professor Helmut Neunzert.

Neunzert, to his room, asked him a few questions.

He asked this department wanted to introduce

M.Tech. in industrial mathematics, what is your opinion?

His beautiful way he talked mathematics,

industrial mathematics, mathematic in the Department of Mathematics,

oh, it is so nice.

Oh, ok. Just a few 1 or 2 that is what

Professor Natarajan told and it was approved.

Oh great. We started with 9 students.

Yeah, now. And here one thing we introduced

what is quite brand new, nowhere it was done, the seminar aspect.

Yeah, modelling workshop.

Workshop. Yeah. Modelling

workshop. Yeah, still it is going

mathematical modelling workshop. Modelling workshop,

weekly ones. Rarely,

yeah, we saw the problem. That is something brand new.

From the scratch to the model to the computing,

today it it has gone to that. And that is where the industry also

gave their problems for us to discuss it. Yes, yes, yes.

Still it is going on? Yes,

very we have a. The workshop.

very good connection and still modelling workshop is

very you know. Going that.

One component in.

And I must appreciate you.

Oh, that is your. After afterwards you have taken care of it.

Now, I understand it has gone to a very good level.

Yeah, we have lot of memorandum of understanding with

some of the top universities and we are working on a. And sponsored.

Exchange, student exchange programme.

Now, we have sponsors from DAAD.

Accha. And also we have good sponsor from Erasmus.

European Union where some every semester till 2021.

Every year 5 students of our end, they can go to

to spend one semester in in University of Kaiserslautern. German University.

Then, similarly the students from Germany

they come here for a semester. So,

anyway the main thing is you are the person

with your team at that time,

you started, you thought about it and you started this programme.

Confidence was somewhere else. Because we have seen that you are the

real, you know your foresee the importance of this particular programme.

So, I must really appreciate you for such good ideas.

One simple incidence I will tell you.

Please sir. During my headship you know the computers?

When was the the your? 92 to 95. 92 to 95, ok.

The computers are very popular during those days you know,

just started becoming popular.

We had no computers in our department.

Yes, yes. No computer.

And we requested our deputy director, Professor Muthukrishnan,

sir we do not have any computer department,

can you help us to have some computers in the department?

We want to have a lab.

He told what means computers.

Anyway, I will see he told.

Then, he gave us after repairing few old computers.

Ok. Repaired.

And he told repairing charges I won’t put on the department.

Ok. I will put in a general way.

You take this. We agreed this

and Professor Raghav Raj was in charge of the computer.

Ok.

That is. Now we have a big lab, M.Tech. lab

even we conduct. So

So, we started that

computer lab with 4 computers. Yeah.

And today of course,

computer is a way of life. Yeah, we have own service on that, yeah.

But I want to ask you one thing just to go back again to

Professor Chandrasekhar the famous the Noble Laureate,

so and he visited IIT Madras and he gave lecture. 87, 87.

Oh, it was 90.

So, you are there during his lecture at CLT

and how was that experience of meeting

this giant? You know Professor Achuthan

was very fond of theoretical physics.

When he heard that Professor Chandrasekhar is visiting the

Department of Physics, he informed all of us, he is coming.

All of us we will go and attend his talk, he is very enthusiastic.

And also just before his arrival to at India,

Chandrasekhar had a heart problem, a setback.

He came here with his wife actually.

First visit to us, Department of Physics here in and

he gave a talk in CLT, we attended it, beautiful.

His body language, modular voice and that

simple smile when he enjoys something telling is something very special.

Oh. His wife was there.

Ok. Lalitha.

His wife was also there sitting in the audience.

We were very fortunate to hear him.

So, so thank you sir for this great time.

And really I went back to you know 1960 68.

I was basically travelling along with you from 65 to till.

In fact, I must thank you to bring in my memory so much,

you know things nostalgic. I thank you very much.

Thank you sir. Thanks.

We thank the IIT Madras to bring both of us together. Yes, sir.

So nice. Thank you sir.

Good morning, I am Sujatha

from the Development Office at IIT Madras

and I have the great honor

and pleasure this morning of interviewing

Mrs. Gourishankar. Her husband Mr. Gourishankar was

involved with IIT almost from the very beginning,

and his photographs and the memories

of Mrs. Gourishankar are part of IIT's heritage.

I am very happy to have this opportunity.

Good morning Mrs. Gourishankar,

Mrs. Viji, first of all thank you for this opportunity to talk to you.

Yeah. I would like to begin by asking

how did Mr. Gourishankar's association with IIT

and photography...all that began...begin.

Yeah, in 1960, I was away in Delhi, Viji was being on a...[Inaudible Dialogue]

and here, his friend Mr. R Natarajan was the Registrar here.

He said, "Gourishankar, why don't you come and take photos in IIT,

we are just started everything the building and all,

and Professor Sengupto will be very happy to be..."

because Professor Sengupto knew a lot about photography.

So, then in 1960 it started. First student’s associations, taking

the photos of the buildings, and then functions.

And then the convocation came.

So each convocation, he used to be called,

and then he used to cover those photos

that is how the association began, and Professor Ramaswamy

and others, Sampath and NCC leader Colonel Nair.

They all used to call him for the various photos

to be taken in their department.

So it was very little then, it had just shifted from Guindy

and the buildings were all under this thing.

And he used to come and take photos for them.

For the record, as Professor Sengupto said, "Right

from the beginning, to see that the trees are all there,

and the buildings are all coming and we are planting more trees"

and all. And he used to tell Gourishankar, how to take photos.

"Take this from the East, that from the West

and this building", you have to keep on saying right

from the ground this thing...foundation to the full building

that he used to do and all the occasions he used to come.

He was an amateur photographer or a

Yeah. Professional. Professional, ok

He was a professional photographer,

then he used to take industrial photography.

And his hobby was to take photos of the

temples and other monuments

Aand tourist spots in India that was his side,

but the main thing was, he was connect...as an industrial photographer.

He was taking photos for Guindy Engineering

and the the Guindy Machine Tools or the various companies

and industries in Madras, and also in Bangalore.

Ok. So, that is how he got connect to IIT.

IIT is one of the place he used to come and take photos.

How did his interest in photography begin?

Photography. He was always interested in photography.

Taking photos and he had a camera.

His father was a good photographer. Ok.

Even though there was no electricity in home

when he was married and came,

his father used to do developing at home.

Having the lights and all.

And he still had those red lights and all that you know.

My mother-in-law used to help my father-in-law.

And so, Gourishankar got interested in photography by his father,

because he used to take a lot of photos with his [Inaudible] camera

which he and his youngest sister Dr C. Minakshi.

Was a historian doing research work.

Under Professor Nilakanta Sastri.

So, my father-in-law used to go along with her to take photos

of all the thing, and till she received her Ph. D.,

he used to help her a lot with all the photos. Ok.

So, my husband was introduced in that way.

And when...I got married he bought his first Rolleiflex.

And he was having a very good hobby as a photographer.

And then geological survey...though he was interested in

geology a lot, he found that he could not...

the six months away from there, my mother-in-law was ill.

And he used to stay in camps and shift every ten days.

Then he resigned, and took up photography as a profession.

Ok. Till then it was a hobby.

Ok. In 1958 - '59 as he took it...the photography,

he started with IIT

that is how...in for...and he read about all photography.

He learned from every photographer. Right

from all the great famous photographers, and all their books

that is how he developed his knowledge about photography.

Do you know about his relationship with other famous photographers?

Yes. In

Yeah, in Madras.

All the photographers knew him.

And anyone in any interview,

They will say, "Do you know Mr. Gourishankar professional one?"

They all used to stand up.

Yes, you know its the (in Tamil) for our profession (in Tamil) an honour.

(In Tamil) after doing MA Geology, he's coming and doing what a photo...and he never stopped

taking its a perfect picture, that is what.

So all the studios and other people would come with to him.

Saying we couldn't get this photo will you please...

He...two or three days he will do.

And he will give them a very good picture,

and they will come and tell me,

"Mahalakshmi, I don't know, we couldn't get the photo

anywhere even G. K. Vale and others they could not do it.

And Gourishankar has taken a perfect picture."

So, that is how he learnt his photography, and to do difficult pictures.

How to tackle them and all. Right.

Even for IIT, there were many difficult pictures, he used to do them all.

That is how he learned photography.

And all the studios and other photographers

used to come home. They were all very good friends.

Ok. Just for learning.

For doubts, or for getting his comments

about their photos they all used to come.

We had very good relation with the...

Who were the other photographers ma, like Dr.

M. Krishnan, (in Tamil) and others like him...

His mentors and all. Yes.

M. Krishnan was his mentor.

He is a naturalist, and a photographer.

And he is very knowledgeable about photography

and he got fellowship Jawaharlal Fellowship and all.

Padma Shri and all.

He was a very good adviser for him

for any in...this thing concerned with photo...

And as he used to do still photography for his cousin.

R. N. Nagarajarao and other still photographers

[Inaudible] so, many people they all used to come

and he used to learn from them the still photography

this thing and the studios,

whenever they found any difficulty in any photos

or anything they used to.

Vaman Brothers, Madras Photo Store, G. K. Vale [incoherent]

They were all they...are very good friend

and we used to know them very well. Ok.

And we used to buy all the chemicals,

because everything was done at home.

All the developed...everything wow.

We had developed the dark room, and all the chemicals bought

and everything, those chemicals this thing also

people used to come. I have Krishnan's letters

and all, where he used to say, 'For this developer, for this stoning, for this...'

All the chemicals and all, they have learnt about so many other things

apart from photography, because they had to tackle different

Right. photos at different times, nature photography

and forest photography was M. Krishnan's thing. Ok.

So he learnt about that.

And all the...taking pictures of the statues

and taking pictures of the...each department here,

that was a real thing, some of them he had to bring out

they used to bring it out to the sunlight,

some of the...for...this thing he used to take home

and take...they all very well cooperated.

The buildings were just coming up. Yes.

Yeah that time.

They very well cooperated.

And the...the perfect background,

the perfect this thing, and the perfect camera.

He used to...and take the perfect picture. And

till he got the enlargement correct,

He never stopped. The negatives were prepared very well,

and then when the printing was done

the first picture, "No this can come better."

That is how he got the perfectionist title in photography.

Have you accompanied him on these photo shoots In IIT? Yes.

Everywhere everywhere. What what was IIT like in those days?

I just remembered 1961.

She was a baby.

We went to Professor Sengupto's house

the Directors Bungalow was very different then.

Now it is very different, and he used to come for all the functions.

Any function in IIT,

he used to come. She was a baby then,

few months old, but we bring her along.

And then when the...Viji was baby and Jayan, my son was born,

and they had school, I couldn't accompany him everywhere.

And there was always an assistant. Ok.

So he used to come

only for important occasion like convocation all, I used to come.

Or for any alumni this thing if they invited me

Rathindra Nath Roy this thing.

(In Tamil) What was Rathindra Nath Roy's friend's name?

They were all my alumni people.

They used to come, and when they invited we used to come

and see that plays dramas, everything. That

we enjoyed, inter-college plays and all. Everything

he will come...photography. Was that in OAT, was OAT there

In those days? OAT was...

After it came...afterwards there was no OAT before.

ok. After that only it came.

Everything came later it was

just plain jungle in '60-'61.

I remember '62,

it started. Professor Sengupto when he working,

and this thing...Professor Sengupto and Natarajan’s farewell...

everything we used to come when there was an occasion.

Otherwise, I never came to IIT very often

because Gourishankar always came with his assistant. Ok ok.

They used to to take photos I only helped him at home,

complete...apart from being a wife I was helping him in photography

in every way when he was doing development

and printing. Taking photos he used to come.

Developing printing I used to.

You used to Help him a lot

and that is how I knew about...

So that must have been very interesting for you to

learn...lot to... Very very interesting.

So, many people came.

They want to learn photography.

And some people who came, "Gourishankar

will you teach photography"...it can't be learnt in one day.

And he will advise them not to take up professional, leaving aside

other job because photography wasn't very well known those days.

As I said, as librarian and a photographer,

came up now, very very well.

Now they are all in very bigger.

after it became a library issue thing, with it...internet and all

and photography with the latest. Correct.

Those days it was not very well known. Ok.

Was he involved...I have heard that

he was involved with Campastimes did he used to write for...?

Yes, yes he was there proofreading in,

as a Roy Rathindra Nath Roy used to say,

"You will advise us at the batch...this thing...what used to come first

and whats the coming behind and what will come there."

And...the...give them all the advice about this thing.

Same thing ICC started and they published a thing,

he took photographs in all the departments.

And he found to his amazement that each department

didn't know what the other was doing.

He used to really complain to them that.

And then they came to know,

about the other, Gourishankar taught us,

see this is already there in the other department.

And when this the book was published I forget the name, ICC book...

they had a copy, but and then they run short that we gave it to him

and we had all the department photos in that

when it was started that's what...consultancy centre was started.

And then he used to help a lot.

Same way when German Consulate and this thing IIT and other people.

Had an exhibition here,

He was there throughout helping them.

Decide the space, arrange it, all that because

he had a good idea about the consistency, he was a very good artist.

Very good artist, that helped him a lot, to get the medal.

I think I had yes... German professors you...wanted blow ups

of the labs. Ok.

Because they developed the labs

Yes. You know.

In the institute, in the workshops. Et cetera.

So that...is he started doing 40 by 30 inches 60 by 40 inches you know.

And do you have those pictures?

The Heritage Centre if...

Has those pictures? Yes, they...

Mostly 40 By 30. ICC.

24 by 20, very few 60 by 40. Yeah.

And that is very different to a normal picture development? Yeah.

Yes You have to mount a enlarger. To still be clear when.

Yes. It is so, big.

You have to mount a enlarger on those...this thing loft. Loft.

And have the big trees huge.

Oh oh yeah, to...ok. Yes.

With a wooden this thing.

And the plastic sheet over it, we had...60 by 40 was very difficult.

The enlarger was up, and...was down

and three rooms were taken on for dark room. Yeah.

And all those pictures the German consulates only encouraged him

to do all the big pictures. All the German professors here Dr Hans Wagner,

Doctor Hans Wagner, Doctor...they all wanted him to do those.

Ok. Pictures for their record, to put up in the labs...the wall.

So, those pictures they took them? Are they still...? Yeah

exhibition took it...exhibition pictures were all here the German Consulate...[Indistinct Dialogue]

They they were different I think. (In Hindi) Oh, achcha

So. It might be with the German Consulate.

Probably. Ok.

Yes. Because the Heritage Centre's always looking for...I think...

Old I'll see...

pictures. old pictures with IIT photos (In Tamil) if it is there

(In Tamil) Please look if it is there. Photos. Yes.

They are all there. Yes.

It would be

Paper...yeah. Wonderful for them to

Yes. Have to.

Paper used to come in rolls,

and we used to cut and print them, I will find it when...[Overlapping Conversation]

Please, Ok ok.

For convocation also. (In Tamil) Yes.

He did with a lot of involvement you know. Yes.

He would attend the

rehearsals also. Ok, to plan the best way of...

[Indistinct Dialogue]

And then Jalakanteshwara...no rain

It was always July July always yes

So, he always used to come, three days rehearsal.

Who is coming, what all, and he used to enjoy hearing them talk and all.

Professor...Doctor J. R. D. Tata, and C. V. Raman

and Radhakrishnan...they all...all the dignitaries were here.

And some of them had visited IIT already.

All of them used to be there and the conversation and all,

and he loved the convocation...this thing very much, meeting people and all.

He came for the rehearsals

to see what angle would be best for each shot. Ok.

See he was very wiry and physically very fit.

And because this work demands that he did a lot of physical work.

Yes, yes yes. So he would climb very risky heights.

Oh my. Very true

Just so, that he could get a

Get the best

shot Oh my

from there you know. Even for building,

he used to go to the opposite side

and take the view from a very very high angle.

So, Professor Sengupto asked, "How did you take...

this should have been a very tall..." No no he climbed up

and took the photo..."Wasn't there a tree?"

He immediately said, "Wasn't there a tree?"

"Yeah, I boarded the tree and went to the other...

you know another thing...terrace." And all this thing,

they were planning, as I said, for three or four times

he used to rehearse and then come and take the photo.

Because he was such a perfectionist.

Yeah. Very very.

If he wanted a shot, he would

That yes.

Do anything to get it, even at

Yeah. risk of his own falling.

Yes, and the way they used, you know, it was always a

north-facing or south-facing...that thing, roofs.

He used to...Sengupto used to tell him, "Take it from this side."

Also his geologist training,

Right. He was very good at...he had a very good sense of direction.

Yes. And very good sense of lighting.

He would know which month of the year, what angle the light would fall, and

how it would get reflected and Wow.

What day...what hour of the day would be best for a certain shot.

And he used to see the clouds, Yeah.

Wonderful background, and then only he will take it...

as he says, lighting should be correct, which angle is correct,

and what height to go to, to take the photos.

Has he written about his experiences as a photographer?

No I don't think...

it would have so, nice to oh ok. He he did not have the time,

because he was doing it for a living, you see,

so, he had to support a family and so, his way of working

was actually not very sustainable,

because he would always be looking for the perfect print.

And so, the number of assignments that he could accept during the...any year,

was limited by how perfectly those photos Because a lot of

time was spent on ok, ok. Yeah

So that way he had very little time between assignments,

because they were always lined up. Yes.

People were always asking why havent you started our work yet. Ok. Oh my

You know and he kept saying, "I haven't..."

Because of his reputation, so...

Because of his very obsessive...

this preoccupation with that perfect picture.

He was very...

Even if he gave 50 pictures, each one of them have to be... Yeah wow.

And he asked her to do the rinsing

and the glazing, you know the...it had to be glazed in those days. Correct.

Because only she could do it perfectly.

He...he couldn't trust the assistant

with it, the assistant used to do all the other work.

Ok.

But he knew that she would do the rinsing very sincerely,

and not take shortcuts.

So that the picture would turn out perfectly. Yes.

It will go yellow for... Oh yes.

This is... The developing the last one is hypo.

Hypo has to be removed, otherwise the pictures will not be perfectly...

They will go yellow.

They will go yellow. They will go yellow not now,

but you know now if they are

still black and white it shows that...he didn't.

Yeah, I know usually they go...they go brown Yes.

when they get spots and so, many yeah. yeah

Old pictures. Even after so many years it is still...

It has to be washed seven times,

Wow. only then the hypo is removed.

Like that there used to be, and then, when he used to take the picture,

and printing and glazing needs to be done,

it has to be perfect, that is it.

And when someone came to take..."Gourishankar,

I want this photo taken of this machine,"

then he will take the picture and give it to them

and they will say, "We will come to him every time

because, we didn't even have a write up,

we just send this photo and we get all the... orders.

from abroad." Yeah.

And just the picture, and the company's name behind,

and we didn't give a write up or go to advertising agency and do anything,

because your picture speaks everything.

And they get all the order and one...

Yes, correct.

once he brought, and we have...he had an exhibition in Alliance Francaise.

Who is an...we can't go, we have an exhib...I will come later

when do you finish and then three months later

he came, brought the machine, took the photo and went.

And for that, he had to have a background

he had to have some...he'll buy small stones, small marbles

and other granite in a...and have a background

correct thing for the measure, and they used to be really perfect

and that is why they waited.

He...I told you his hobby was taking temple photograph and all,

so all those pictures were blown up

and put in an exhibition in Alliance,

and that was a very...famous one, Mister Harinarayana from...

curator of the Madras Museum came and inaugurated. [Inaudible Speech]

Yeah yeah yeah. You can see that, and also

No he is he had friends among the historians Yeah.

and archaeologists.

Yeah yeah. Because his aunt was the first

Very good.

Woman Ph. D. from Madras University.

Doctor C. Minakshi was his father’s younger sister. Ok.

That is how I said his father did all Right.

photography for her and Ok.

So for her thesis,

he remembers that his father used to do a lot of To do a lot

photography That is how he got it.

Yes. So are these pictures still in the Madras Museum?

Yes, I have yes. Those temple pictures.

Museum. I have all the picture,

Madras Museum returned it after the

exhibition was over. Ok ok.

I have all the pictures, these exhibition pictures,

large size as well as small size. Ok.

In August they wanted...Madras Day comes in August

Yes Madras week. So they said,

"You bring along Gourishankar's photographs, we'll display it,

because all the large size pictures are there, exhibition

pictures, some of them people bought

and took away, others are with us.

So this year there might be an exhibition

in...along with Madras week, very

nice Because the photos are all arranged, they have to be cleaned.

So July-August I'll do that and present it. Lakshmi...[Inaudible Dialogue]

[Inaudible Dialogue]

Ok. And.

Ok ok. So this is how the machine photography took on.

Everywhere, all the Guindy people

and other companies all over Madras and Bangalore,

they used to take photographs, bring the machine...

and Richardson and Cruddas was a very good...very good with that thing.

Yeah one's company

A company. Ok.

Which...which he did all pictures. Factories.

Then he used to go all over South India,

and anywhere...photographs

and what they did was, they brought home

all the things he couldn't take photos there...there it was at home. Ok.

In case you take photos and they take that.

The equipment and all Yeah.

that they bring it home.

Yes. Ok.

And also other architects.

Chitale, and other architect.

Whenever they had a good building, they used to come

ask, "Mister Gourishankar, you take all the photos."

Yeah. So, inside, outside, shot perfect

So Madras history, old...old building. Mrs. Vijayalakshmi Bhaskar: Yeah yeah.

Wow.

Chitale used to say, "I can't get any good picture like Gourishankar."

But sometimes they would lose patience,

because you couldn't get him to click, unless, he vis...

what he visualized came in the Yes

exposure. That was an...you know this indoor [Inaudible Dialogue]

He will not waste even a single exposure.

They'll say, "Sir, just take two or three we will see what comes," but he said, "No."

"I will take only one picture."

He was very very stubborn about that

He was so angry when...

[Inaudible]...Ooty. He wouldn't take a picture he says

He says, "I won't take this picture

because I know it won't come...come out well."

And they hence told me,

"It won't be Gourishankars picture, so, that is it madam."

He said, "You ask...you take it yourself, ask someone

else to take it, don't ask me to click from my camera." So...

There was a Central Photography Section set up

here, was he involved with... Yes, yes. Ok

From the beginning it must have...

There very much...and when that was...all the usual

photographs went to that photography department.

Only German professors and other faculty members

who wanted some machine picture which they wanted...there Kuberan or Kumar... (In Tamil) What is his name?

Kubendran. Kubendran.

Kubendran used to take all the photos

and everything, others Gourishankar used to come.

He was a regular Institute photographer. Ok ok.

But anything outside

of the routine he used to ask my father.

After the photography department came,

the regular photos were all done by him, by the department.

But they'd still call him, like you said, for events

or special...yeah ok.

Convocation, they would call him everytime. Ok. Yes.

I mean the other photographers would also be taking

pictures. Right ok.

But they wanted better a coverage,

smaller set of pictures. Ok.

Yes yes. And he would give them, you know these albums

that you see. Yes yes.

And he will never take more, they will say 100 pictures,

no 30 or 40, or whatever the occasion demands, Exactly.

Yeah only that photos he will take.

He says "For this occasion...." The others will come, "No, we want more photos."

"I know, you can inform any other photographer,

he will take hundred times this..." Not take more than this.

He was very definite about how he would. Mrs. Vijayalakshmi Bhaskar: He was very definite, his cousins...[Indistinct Dialogue]

I want your pictures...[Indistinct Dialogue]

He took only 30. Yeah.

That is all, he...whatever the occasion demands, only those

photographs he'll take...nothing extra

30 exposures That is why,

thirty pictures in one album that is it. Yeah.

That is why, in the convocation you read that this thing...complete

this thing...what all the programme

and where all he has to take photos, the President Prize,

the...Prize, the Director Prize or whatever

and he will take the photos of those students and give it correctly

and exactly...number not one extra picture.

One audience, that is all, no more.

He would have the list

He wouldn't budge,

but the few...he had a good sense of humour, you know.

So once I think person called...some student called Vannangamudi,

Ok. who won a price.

Some Governor's Medal...whatever.

And then they announced it, and

you know he was bending his head to

you know, greet the person...President

or someone who was giving him the prize,

and then two people were talking to each other

saying that, "See his name is Vannangamudi, but he is actually

bending his head", and so, he took he took a picture of that.

Because he felt that you know It is yeah.

it was good. So the...only in those instances he would budge from his

From his list How...

This [Indistinct Dialogue]

Yeah, I remember him narrating it to his... Ok.

So then as he grew older, he is...did he...

Yes. till what age did he go on taking pictures?

1995 I think we finished with IIT, slowly he...

But till '95. Gradually he stopped taking photos,

only a few...this thing we used to come, Professor [Inaudible] and.

But at that age also he used to... He was able to do Yes yes

He had a lot of willpower. Ok.

He functioned on willpower.

In all his effort...photography, he has all the things.

But he would work 65 hours Wow.

Continuously. non-stop, because because, he...the moment he

took a break, the chemicals would go waste,

and he would have to mix a new set of chemicals.

So in order to exhaust the chemicals,

He would go on working. He would work anything between 40 hours

and 65 hours. Yes, yes.

Three hours...we...three days we kept awake, Yeah.

And then we came here with the exhibition picture.

They said, "Please put up Mister Gourishankar, you only know."

Fourth day we were here and then we went to sleep. Yeah.

Three days continuously

we were working. Oh my

No sleep.

Complete...no sleep.

Because the German Consulate wanted the exhibition in the IIT

We never knew before, that was a last minute...this thing.

And we came, chose a place, brought all the photos.

Three days without sleeping, you were working. Yes, three days!

Three days fully we never had slept. Never slept, that was the maximum

I think. Fourth day, we put up the exhibition, and went home and slept.

Wonderful, the...he had stamina for...the photography and other things.

He would begin by cleaning the dark room every time he started.

Yes and he was perfect at home ok. Mamata Dash: Gourishankar Collection, all Gourishankar Collection. Mamata Dash: You can just scroll

He was perfect at home. Can you...can you see? You can move it so, she can. [Indistinct Chatter]

Collection.

(In Tamil) No, she's showing his (Gourishankar's) collection

Yes, yes there it is.

Yeah yeah he used to call it penguin,

Professor Sengupto said all the penguins are...

Sujatha Dube: Because of that gown and... [Indistinct Chatter] Mamata Dash: This I think all albums, all the photos are there.

Sujatha Dube: Oh, that's so nice Sports pictures,

he used to take all those sports day pictures... Yeah

And first one again... [Indistinct Dialogue]

Mamata Dash: You want to see?

Sujatha Dube: No no, let her

Mamata Dash: These are all his collections.

Sujatha Dube: Ok, I can look at it later, yeah. Yeah.

Sujatha Dube: They are digitizing everything, and putting it

Yes yes. Sujatha Dube: up on the Heritage Centre's

Sujatha Dube: website... Bhaskar told me...

even the ones I brought today,

those have to be digitized. Yes yes.

Important occasions and other things, they has to be digitized.

He said all the negatives have to be digitized.

I brought them in four or five lots. Ok.

Because I found them in various places,

and we had shifted house.

So, the...today I got 34 pictures.

[Background Chatter] Wow.

The set of picture and I brought them. Yeah.

And it was so nice to see all the the album within the archives

Yeah. there...is that...

Because the Centre is now become...really developing well and...

Indira Gandhi came,

that was so much, this thing...the security and all. Security.

And three days he used to come, and get all the detail,

because he said, "On that day, we won't be having...

that will be very crowded and everything.

Extra care we took on that time,

and same way, other visitors also.

Anyone from Germany came.

In '60, '61, '62, many people, (In Tamil) From the President, all the important people from Germany came

I will give them...all the negatives are there Ok ok.

They were all so pleased, you know he...they come to the

carpentry section, "Shall I plane?" "Oh, yes!"

Professor Sengupto will stand, and he will plane,

and he will take a picture.

That is how it was, it was all very very...friendly type their this thing,

those days.

I think all of us...all students have this... So many...so many jokes he had about

so many humorous instances, along with those people.

Everybody who studied here, has great memories of the workshops.

Yeah yes. Workshop...[Indaudible Dialogue]

[Indaudible Dialogue]

Vijayalakshmi. See...

Mamata Dash: This is Indira Gandhi convocation

I forget the name of the workshop,

Mister Gourishankar, they are coming and telling me,

"How can you have Sarswathi puja, it is secular here,

we dont have any...alright...we will call...worship of the...tools.

We will call it only worship of the tools

and we are worshipping the tools that is all."

No pooja nothing, see, there...you know...you

have to live with...your tools are everything in workshop. Yes, yes.

This is how he used to explain everything in that.

This seems is that Indira Gandhi (In Tamil) The pictures from convocation for which she came

Yes, 9th September, you know it was changed.

Saturday, the thing we had to...

Yes, this was the thing.

Wonderful, they were all there. Great pictures

All the Directors, right from Sengupto,

they were all there in the...and the school, Vanavani School.

And it was born. Mamata Dash: Yes yes, Vanavani creation day.

Right from the day it was born, we were there.

You know we knew all the...this thing

because he studied in Loyola College, and the mentor here,

the advisor here, was his professor from Loyola and the...the...the principal.

They were here. (In Tamil) What was that lady's name, ma...Professor...? [Indistinct Dialogue] She had come after Vanavani was started.

When was Vanavani started? (In Tamil) That was also in '60s...?

'65.

'65, four or five...

Jebamalai... Jebamalai Peters

She was the first...

[Indistinct Chatter] Just...I remember, we were there, right from the Vanavani started

there, taking pictures there...pictures of Vanavani also

(In Tamil) When did K. V. come about? Kendriya Vidyalaya...also around?

Kendriya Vidyalaya, no.

Ok later...Vanavani was first

Very much later.

Mamata Dash: '64. Around the same time.

Ok. (In Tamil) After '85-'86, we had stopped...so many, coming here.

Only important occasions, we used to come.

Actually you know from the negatives,

That he worked here till '95, because very rare occasion

he used to come there. (In Tamil) In '60 he started...

But just then, (In Tamil) He shifted here from Guindy

(In Tamil) After starting then...I think in 1995 something,

but very gradually we stopped this thing...yeah this thing.

Did he gradually...(In Tamil) Generally photography, because of age or?

(In Tamil) He left photography Ok.

But...

Vijayalakshmi Bhaskar: Because the kind of photography he did was very strenuous.

And yes, they used to ask him to take photograph of books.

That was the...[Indistinct Dialogue]

An American Professor, Santa Barbara,

when he came here and...he did his research and everything.

He took a lot of photos for him.

And then he used to give all the write-up,

and then for any information, there he was, with all the details.

Yes.

Sometimes IIT students used to come, I remember,

tha...they...I think maybe from the Photo Club or something,

they used to come to and spend, you know evening and night Right.

watching him work and, you know

getting this thing... Learning...learning

from him, ok.

That so many people did.

My friends, Yeah.

relatives, and unknown people.

They all used to come.

And he'd welcome everyone. Yes yes.

and so many people learned photography

and printing, development, printing and all...he was there.

Tea was on the tap in our house, tea, snacks or biscuits or bananas or...

Somebody...(In Tamil) someone will always be coming Mungfali (groundnut),

whatever, because she was so busy

and, you know

she...she would just make sure there is a stock of everything.

So, my father would drink lot of tea in between his works.

So whoever was there, there was a round of tea

Always had tea...and whoever worked there, the carpenter,

the assistants, and so many other people used to...painters

and the negative photographers,

assistant photographers...they were all there, together they all treat...

he'd treat them exactly equal to him, there was no difference for anybody.

All had khaana (food) together, all had...[Indistinct Dialogue]

And he would eat with them, not with us.

And when there was an exhibition or an important occasion

in IIT or anything, everybody will step in, they will do any work.

They will take over those work, and this one will take...

and then the album...then the frames and all finished,

everyone will be helping everyone,

and then it will be finished on time.

Great teamwork.

Yes. Yes.

He inspired the

people like that. Yes like that.

Because he himself was working very very hard.

Right yeah. Yeah. So, you know they said, why not...

So he would lead by example.

And he encouraged them to take on,

in life.

Right.

You know you can't remain an assistant you can't remain this way.

They encouraged him to swallow their own profession

and how they use...best to...there was one Chellamuthu, he went to his village,

and he thus benefited by visiting...and even when Gourishankar died,

the way he helped me, I could not have managed otherwise,

and in later days, he helped them a lot financially, everybody,

and even today when he ask his assistant to bring up anything,

"Oh, we will do it." And the...then the people thank me and I said,

"Don't thank me, you thank Gourishankar."

But he...because he is still rubbing...that rubbing on that...

this thing, "We will do anything for Gourishankar",

"We will do anything for uncle, we will do anything for him."

Because that's the thing they created for him. Any problem anyone had,

he used to go and solve them, or put them onto people, you...those who get it solved.

That way he helped everybody, he had an empathy for everyone,

and that still continues, even after so many years,

people just tell me, "Gourishankar (In Tamil) immediately, he will do anything...Chittappa (uncle) [Indistinct Dialogue]

and because relatives, friends, everybody will help. Photography and...generallly.

They all have such great memories. Generally generally generally, he had.

Our house itself was a 200 year old house.

It was just rebuilt once I think.

It was a street house in Nungambakkam,

where the front entrance was on one street, and the back...

back door was.

(In Tamil) Like an Agraharam

Agraharam house. With cowshed, with car garage,

With tulasi maadam, with a second kitchen for functions.

I didn't know there were such houses in Chennai

Court yard (In Tamil) I have seen it somewhere in Trivandrum Yes.

Courtyard and huge...big corridor,

and hall, and this thing...upstairs there was a big hall,

and we just created...painted...[Overlapping Conversation]

It's a heritage building.

Yeah yeah. (In Tamil) Now? Now it is gone,

we sold it long ago.

And then, background he used to paint one wall at the background

and all the photography was done there,

and the huge house, I think had all the things.

But later on he took nature photography.

And one wall he refused to let it be painted,

because he said it looks good as it is.

Because it shouldn't be even.

And then he took on photography, he used to do outside only.

In nature...nature light, everyone.

My mama’s (uncle's) daughter came, said, "Please take a photo."

He used to take the photo in the background...in the...behind

in a, near the all the palm trees and coconut trees.

That photo came out so well, they wrote back saying, "We are going

and looking at the photo every minute, I think that

Its so nice I have...never nobody has taken such picture of ours."

See, very high ceiling. Right.

So that is why he could do the enlargements

with the enlarger mounted on the loft Ok ok.

The negative used to stand...withstand all the big fine enlargement. Ok.

And he took a photo of Madurai temple,

he climbed one gopuram,

Oh my! He wasn't allowed, he took permission,

and then took the photo of southern gopuram

Nobody had that view at that height.

Who climbs up a gopuram? Yeah,

his friend from geological survey had gone with him.

"Ma, was holding to his shirt,

it was just sheer drop."

And he would take on taking photos and wait for the clouds,

and the picture had won so, many prizes

and Karumuttu Thiagarajan Chettiar from Madurai,

he took a large size enlargement of it, painted,

still there with him, Ramaswami chittappa (paternal uncle),

took it along and it is still there with him, he said, "I never knew

negative could stand this enlargement." It was perfect, clear

picture of that size, 60 by 40. Wow.

60 inches and That angle is impossible to get, unless

you take it from one gopuram,

and you know there are these holes in the gopurams,

he got to the edge of...inner edge of the holes Oh my.

so that you don't see the window like appearance. Yes.

So it looks as if you are viewing the other gopuram

from somewhere in mid-air.

This wasn't seen at all, the gopuram wasn't seen it...

It would be fantastic view.

Lying on his tummy for

hours, and his friend was holding onto...

On the gopuram...(In Tamil) Oh my!

Geological survey friend came and saidt, "We are doing some digging

and...at Thiruvannamalai, please come along."

He took photographs of the temple,

and the rice planting there, and also they were digging and

geological work. All three came,

but geological work of course, we printed and gave it to the department.

But this rice planting and Thiruvannamalai temple pictures

still, they are there, and all large size, because for the exhibition,

and small size, they have...exhibition pictures...small size pictures [Indistinct Dialogue]

I see. just 34 pictures (In Tamil) he kept in exhibition.

You should hold an exhibition

of his pictures.

Yes, they are having in...I think August.

We never got along to...he never believed in

Having a... having an exhibition, or in submitting his photos for competitions.

Ok. If someone called him and exhibited a photo,

and said, "This is very nice," it's ok.

But that is the only kind of recognition

that he...otherwise he will not go into...

And he doesn't take.

Just the picture was enough for him, getting the perfect picture. Yeah, yeah

that was enough. Yeah, any wedding, any birthday, any occasion,

presented pictures. So everyone was happy,

"Oh, there is Gourishankar's photo, oh there is..."

Professor Thomas from Alliance Française "That is your visiting card."

There everyone had pictures,

presented by Gourishankar.

Various pictures from various...statues and all.

So they all had pictures, because he used to present them right

and left to everybody.

Anyone who valued his work,

They got the picture...some.

If you can, you should write about all those times,

it will be very interest...with his pictures, make a beautiful book, I think.

If you, if you have the time. Yeah yeah.

Because you were there throughout with him, you saw everything.

Exactly.

She worked with him. You worked with him, you know all the details.

[Indistinct Dialogue] Kalyan...Kalyan Sundaram from State Bank of India

he was a very [Indistinct Dialogue]

So Appa (father)...[Indistinct Dialogue]

And he wrote such a...[Indistinct Dialogue]...Appa (father) replied, "Kalyan,

you have helped me so much, I stood in front of the mirror I find a halo in front of me."

"You praise me so much, you deserve all the praise."

I'll come and meet Professor...[Indistinct Dialogue]

His fellow students,

like this person from Geological Survey.

From from his M. A. Geology class, and from Geological Survey,

they used to have a lot of regard for him,

because even the 10 years or so, that he spent in GSI,

He...his mapping was so perfect,

that even to this day, they dont have to alter it,

even by an inch.

And now Jayanth showed me (In Tamil) in is there in the internet, you put Geological Survey,

and there is Gourishankar. Yeah.

With all these surveys done in various front, from Bihar and Madras.

Wow.

Sunderbans, everywhere he has...

Yeah, when he resigned, Professor...[Overlapping Conversation]

(In Tamil) I though he would give a survey...report and go.

He has given perfect reports of all the places,

he used to enjoy writing the reports.

Wonderful, and the survey they used to do, wonderful in each quartz,

in each stone, and he had a lovely rockery at home,

in the garden he had a huge big house I told you with a [Indistinct Dialogue]

The background...backyard was a very huge place,

he had a beautiful rockery, and inside the house, almirahs

contained all the rocks, and his friends used to tell

they bring the hammer, they bring the rock, Gouri is the best person to trim.

He will trim each one beautifully.

You know they get the rock from the...this thing,

Yeah. then it has to be trimmed in a nice way.

Correct. To show the correct...

of the rock, and his friends used to have just fingertips about all

the rocks, Professor Gopalan and all.

And they used to come, and we had a beautiful almirah fullt,

and a rockery in the garden of the geological...

that helped him a lot in photography.

GSI, geology...

and I asked him, "If that was geology and that started...

and you took it because you liked, if there was...otherwise

what would you have taken?" "I would have taken archaeology

or architecture." Both of them weren't there then...

He loved buildings and history

Because he used to paint a lot. Oh ok.

I got pictures of his painting of his professor,

He draws and paints my sister-in-law's picture.

He draws and paints beautifully.

She got it, painting and all. Ok.

(In Tamil) He knows it well.

So... He used to write also, he was a very

good writer.

[Indistinct Dialogue]

He used to...he used to write in

Times of India, Sujatha Dube: Ok.

those days. Sujatha Dube: Ok.

Sujatha Dube: So do you have those?

Anywhere we went he used to write articles. Sujatha Dube: Ok.

I got all his articles, yes they were...they were printed in paper and magazines,

Times of India, Illustrated Weekly, all had his articles, yes. Mamata Dash: He has written one article in...

I have seen the article this one,

the 'Dear oh Dear', 'Oh Dear, Deer!' yes I have this...is very nice.

He used to enjoy reading Campastimes, Ok.

so he contributed this

Very nice, this is very well...funny...funnily written.

And anywhere he went, he took photographs,

he will come home, write an article and attach the photo

and send it to the paper, and there it was.

This is very interesting, he talks about about how he needed to buy

camouflage with green hat...

Such preparation na, before.

And all the archaeology people used to come home

because of Dr. C. Minakshi is out there.

They used to tell Gourishankar, "Go here, take photos, this will be nice." [Indistinct Dialogue]

Go to this place, that place, he went all over,

took photos, and he used to write article and send it to paper.

The photographs are still there, and the articles are also

there, cuttings, I have kept them.

That is very nice.

All the cutting...and he also stored scrapbook.

Cuttings of all interesting articles, not a scrapbook exactly,

they were collection of very good pictures, and same way, arts.

Any picture, any painting, any art, he used to collect, a big scrapbook of.

So he had many interests...

He was interested in so many things, not only photography.

To keep up with them. Because he got very tied up with being a With the...

professional photographer. Ok.

When he was a geologist,

he could Yes.

But this was much more time consuming, And and any

art exhibitions, he will be there.

In this thing...the Lalit Kala Akademi...

Akademi, wherever he used to...in the museum anywhere,

any exhibition he will be there,

and he used to be judge in the tourist department.

He used to call him for being a judge, Mahabalipuram and other places.

Where the tourist guides were given an examination, oral examination.

He used to go along and be a judge there,

because he used to ask the correct question as...[Inaudible Dialogue]

tourist department visiting will attend them,

and correctly he said, "These students answer very well."

In this thing.

Mister M. Krishnan used to come and watch him work,

and he used to go to...we were family friends. Ok.

He would visit him,

you know as he was developing his wildlife pictures, Right.

He also had very nice documents very nice...

he did all his photography work himself, apart from that

he was a writer. M. Krishnan wrote in 'Statesman,'

and any...they had...we had very good conversation.

"Gourishankar you told me this today,

I must write it in my next article."

And there in the next 'Statesman' it will be there.

That is why the conversation we had, and...the and how much we learnt,

that was the thing...how much we learnt from all

these various friends and acquaintances, is remarkable.

And they also said, "We also learnt equally from you."

Both of them, he did...when he was doing his photography,

they were both attending to my grandmother,

Yes. who was a bedridden patient.

Oh ok.

Arthritis patient.

So, on the one hand, they would do the photography,

And take...that's also very time... continuously take care of...

see, in those days no attenders...

He looked after his mother very well.

So, he had to do much of it yourself, (In Tamil) Isn't it? Yes.

Both of them looked after my grandmother,

because she needed handling.

She was...she was

completely bedridden. Poor...

1953 I got married,

'55 she fell ill, till 1967...she died...for 12 years,

you took care of her. Yes.

In with all the... With all this

Viji, Viji baby... And with children and...

Only Jayam was born later on, my son was born after she died.

But Viji was a baby, and my photography, and my mother-in-law there.

Oh my, three full time jobs

Yes. Yes.

All in the same house, you know

We had very good servants, very good cook,

and people to help, anytime, because we were there in that house,

right from 1807, Gourishankar’s great great grandfather

had bought the house from the East India Company.

We had all those papers.

And, right from that time, we were there in Nungambakam

in that house, which was demolished and built again and again,

but the later house was so beautiful, everyone else

said, "Gourishankar please will this house to me!"

Unfortunately, it was co-owned by many other people,

so it had to be sold

It had to be sold

He couldn't afford to buy it by himself. Yes.

It must have cost. He was sentimentally very attached to it.

But it was one of those...

He must have grown up there then, if his great grand....born and grown...

Born and grown up.

You have any other question that you want to ask?

No I don't have any that's it.

Is there anything else you would like to say or add?

I [don't think so. Yeah.

Thank you again, this was wonderful talking to... Thank you very much.

Thank you.

I the recalled all the nostalgic memory and this thing about Gourishankar.

I hope you have you can write about it,

I am sure it would be a great book. Yeah yeah.

Thank you.

Thank you, thank you.

Welcome to the oral history interview

organized by the Heritage Centre of IIT Madras.

I am M. S. Ramachandra Rao from the Department of Physics.

I am extremely happy, and also I feel privileged to interview

a living legend Professor R. Srinivasan;

Ramaswamy Srinivasan whom we all dearly call as Professor R.S.

Professor R. S. served IIT Madras from

1962 to 1990 for about 3 decades,

and during the time of his service, he graduated about

25 Ph.D. students and published about 250 research papers.

He…al…he was also the Dean of Academic Research,

Dean of Student Affairs and he also held the position of

Deputy Director of IIT Madras.

More than anything, Professor R. S. has been

an extraordinary teacher and a wonderful

and meticulous experimentalist.

In fact, he changed over from theory to experiment.

He was initially working on the Theory of Lattice Dynamics,

and then…he became…all in all a

true low temperature experimental physicist.

He was not only instrumental in IIT Madras

in establishing a state of the art low temperature facility,

first of its kind in the entire country.

This used to be a central facility for

low temperature measurements,

way back in the mid-80s, during the ITC boom.

Later, in the later part of his career,

he was asked to establish 3 national centres of

great importance, under the name

‘Inter-University Consortium’ in Bombay, Indore and Kolkata.

I mean, these centres are so important now for people

working in universities and…and…and to have access to

you know, high-end facilities for their research.

He is an epitome of…a great academician,

he is an embodiment of a great academician who should be

emulated by one and all.

At the age of 87, he is 2 years older than my father,

he still sits and you know, plays with physics instruments.

His mission is to fabricate low cost physics equipment

and he has succeeded in that endeavour in a very big way.

He’s been training teachers by way of refresher courses...

About 2000 teachers were trained by him, and he had

conducted 85 refresher courses, and we are going to

hear all about it from him very soon.

He is defined as a…a…a…a true karma yogi.

We are happy to have you here, sir.

Thank you for coming over for this interview.

And I also would like to welcome Mrs. Radha Srinivasan

who these days prefers to travel along with him

wherever he goes and also Professor Swamy

and my colleague Professor V. Sankaranarayanan

from Low Temperatures Physics Lab.

So, Professor R. S., I would like to ask you to tell us about

your schooling and college days before joining IIT Madras.

Yeah, see my schooling from first form to fifth

form was mostly done in Andhra Pradesh because

my father was a PWD engineer in the pre-independence

days Madras Presidency.

He was transferred from place to place.

So I did first form to fifth form in Proddatur in Kadapa District,

Madanapalle and Bellary.

And then I did sixth form in Ramakrishna School

in Chennai, and did my intermediate in Loyola College,

and my B.Sc. honours in Madras Christian College in Tambaram.

Then, I joined the Indian Institute of Science, Bangalore

in 1951 for my Ph.D.

And in those days, IISC was not giving degrees,

so we had to register with our parent universities,

in my case Madras University.

I got my Ph.D. in 1957,

then continued as a postdoctoral fellow till ‘62 in IISc Bangalore.

‘62 I joined IIT Madras.

And can you tell us your experience at IIT Madras

and about the Physics Department.