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Mr. Ramachandra R. Iyer (First batch alumnus) in conversation with Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam

Good afternoon, Mr. Ramachandra,

welcome to the Heritage Centre

[Mr. Ramachandra] Thank you. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] and to this

Oral History programme.

[Mr. Ramachandra] Thank you.

Thank you for joining us.

My pleasure.

So, it’s very exciting that

a student from the first batch of B.Tech. students

at IIT Madras can participate in this.

So, can you tell us

how you came to know about IIT

when you were joining here?

Yeah, sure sure.

Well, actually what happened there was

small advertisement in Times Of India,

it seems, "it seems" I said because

I - I don’t remember having seen it,

but my brother had seen it -

my elder brother who is 2 years and a few months older

Yes.

and he was in Ahmedabad -

I grew up in Ahmedabad -

he was going to an engineering college in Ahmedabad.

Yes.

And he said

well, why don’t you apply to IIT Madras?

I said: okay,

I mean I - I told him at that time

most probably

I won’t get admitted anyway,

because you know

in those days there were

IIT Kharagpur and Bombay.

Yes.

And there was a perception

that, I mean,

it's very difficult to get into it,

though I was,

you know, fairly a good student

and I used to get good marks in

pre-university and all those places,

but one doesn’t know actually.

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] What is required

[Mr. Ramachandra] to get into IIT. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] That’s right, that’s right.

So, I was just - made a joke

at him, ok,

I will - I'll send my papers,

application,

but don’t expect much out of it -

I told him that.

So, that’s how it happened,

he told me and …

and - and the truth is actually

I had already been admitted

to another engineering college

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yeah. [Mr. Ramachandra] in a place called Anand.

Yes.

That’s where Amul Dairy is.

That’s right.

That’s not very far from Ahmedabad.

But there was some

problem there.

So, because of that problem

I - I mean that that’s a -

a story by itself.

And the students went on -

it's something was wrong

in the mess, in the food.

So, the - the students there

went on strike

and we didn’t know,

suddenly we came to know

there was strike,

we came home.

We had already

joined the college,

'we' means

another person was -

a cousin of mine and myself -

and then it turned out that

this college was closed,

campus

everybody was asked to go home.

So, we came home.

And, when we came home

after a couple - couple of days,

I got this invitation

Yes.

to come to IIT Madras.

And you know,

appear for an interview.

Yes.

Because, before that we had

I had already sent the mark sheet

of PUC, you know, Pre-University and

high school and all of that.

Yes.

So, that’s how it happened

and then after the interview,

the interview went very well,

they were very happy

with my interview

and I got the admission, yeah.

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Alright. [Mr. Ramachandra] Yeah.

So, you actually visited Chennai

to participate in the interview?

Right, right, yeah, yeah,

from Ahmedabad,

[Mr. Ramachandra] yeah, yeah. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yeah.

That’s correct, yeah,

though I have visited

Chennai many times

because, I have relatives here.

Right.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So, what was the

interview process like?

Who was there on the interview panel?

Can you recall - recollect anyone

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] was there? [Mr. Ramachandra] I can’t remember the names

of - of the people

but there were certainly

3 people minimum

that much I remember.

And the content of the interview

that I remember

because there again

what happened is

they were asking me

why do you - I mean,

what is your fa - In those days

I don’t know how it is today,

it was very common to ask

what is your father doing?

You know

because very often the children

followed the profession of the father.

Yes.

That was

or at least they want to find out

it's just doctor’s family

or lawyer’s family whatever.

Yes.

So, now, my - I told them

my father is in the textiles mills

because

he was an executive in a textile mills

Yes.

in Ahmedabad.

Ahmedabad was full of textile mills

in those days.

So,

then they immediately

asked me: do you know how

to - how a cloth is made?

You know,

if you start from cotton,

how a cloth is made.

Yes.

Now it so happens that

I had - I have visited

my father’s textile mills.

You know, he was working

in a group of textile mills,

very big ones

where they had 7 textile mills.

And my dad was responsible

for the what is known as

spinning department.

You must be familiar with the

different departments in -

So, he was responsible for the spinning department

for 2 textile mills and

whenever we had guests

in our house from any place,

he would take them to this

textile mills to - just to show them

Yes.

what a textile mills looks like.

That’s right.

So, there was somebody

who had come to our family,

my - actually my uncle,

my mother’s younger brother

from Chennai.

So, he - he was taken -

asked - he - he wanted to see

the textile mills.

So, I went along with him.

So, my dad explained everything

and I was listening.

So, carefully we listened to everything

I understood everything because

it was

I mean, he - he explained very well,

clearly.

So, when I came for the interview,

they asked this question:

"How do you go from raw cotton

o cloth

and then the final product

which is sold in the - in a shop?"

So, I explained to them

all the steps,

they were actually very amazed

that I went into such level of detail

and I think that had to do with

the fact that I had visited

the textile mills

just about a month earlier or so

and maybe it is destiny

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] that helped.

Yes yes.

Yeah,

they were very impressed actually

that somebody like 16 year old

Yes.

could tell

that - that level of detail:

how you go from cotton,

raw cotton

you know, which you get from the fields

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] That’s right. [Mr. Ramachandra] and then you

have to clean it

and then you have to spin it

and you name it, you know,

until you get the cloth,

you bleach it and then you dye it.

Right.

… So,

I mean - I think that

that actually did the trick.

Because my marks were anyway

good you know,

I was I was a top ranker

in - in the college

along with the my cousin;

both of us were first and second

all the time, you know, so …

And the university

marks were also good,

I mean - apart from the fact in the

college marks we had good marks.

So, the - the marks were

not an issue because,

they I suppose in - in - in that

year they took from each university

students who were kind of top

students

because there was no other

common exam.

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] So, whether it is

Tamil Nadu or Calcutta

or wherever,

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] they had to get

students from the

good universities and

those who had the top marks

and

certainly I was one of them.

And then, that helped

plus the interview, yeah, so.

That’s how it happened.

Right,

and you

once you joined here,

Yeah.

it was before the inauguration

of the institute is what I understand

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] from the records [Mr. Ramachandra] Yeah,

[Mr. Ramachandra] yeah. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] because

the official inauguration

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] was on 31st July. [Mr. Ramachandra] Happened later -

[Mr. Ramachandra] happened. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] but you joined here for earlier

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] to … [Mr. Ramachandra] Yeah.

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] enter the hostel and classes.

Yeah, we went to Saidapet Hostel,

of course.

Yes, you were - were - you were in Saidapet Hostel.

Because

the first two years as you said,

Yes.

of the first batch, we were there.

Yes.

Yeah.

Do you have any recollections

of that hostel and that

days you spent there?

Well, me - most

the important recollections

I have is that we had to walk

a long distance to come here …

and then of course, that

it was a - it was a canteen

where we could make easily friends.

Yeah.

And people always try to interact

and find out who you are,

where are you coming from.

So, it was a very

cosy hostel.

So that rooms were close to each other

and people tended to

you know, after they come -

we had classes

we - excuse me -

we came home

or we came back to the hostel,

we had snacks

usually there were some snacks

and then, you know, you don’t

start studying immediately.

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] That’s right. [Mr. Ramachandra] Usually you take a

shower also,

but about 10, 15 minutes

or half an hour we chitchat with

[Mr. Ramachandra] with people on that corridor. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.

And the whole str -

layout of the hostel

that facilitated

this interaction.

I see.

Yeah and then of course,

there was also a table tennis …

table and - and - and - and

I don’t know,

maybe there was also carrom.

So, there were some places

where you could make friends.

So, it - it was actually a nice hostel

except of course,

there were 2 persons in each room.

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] Yeah,

which is not a bad thing

but we were …

later when we came to Cauvery hostel,

each one was given a separate room.

Separate room.

Yeah, yeah.

So, and -

yeah, I had a nice roommate,

he was from Madurai also

your town.

Oh, I see.

Yeah, yeah

[Mr. Ramachandra] yeah. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Not Mr. Amudachari.

Not Amudachari, but another person

called Venkata Pattabhi Raman.

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] I see. [Mr. Ramachandra] He was in metallurgy.

I see.

L. Venkata Pattabhi Raman.

Metallurgy student.

And he and - he knew Amudachari

before coming here.

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] They knew each other.

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] I see. [Mr. Ramachandra] Yeah,

yeah yeah.

So, Amudachari is also top student

from Madurai

when he came, yeah.

Right,

you mentioned that

you actually walked from Saidapet to

IIT.

Yeah.

Well, classes would have been in

the A.C. Tech College,

weren't they in the beginning?

Yeah, yeah.

So, that was

quite some time that you walked.

Yeah, yeah.

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] in the sun and the - [Mr. Ramachandra] Probably. I can’t even remember, it might have been

25-30 minutes.

Yes.

Yeah, yeah

and I think we had to cross

the Adyar river

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] somewhere - it’s a

small bridge - walking bridge

is also there.

Yeah, I haven’t been there recently,

incidentally,

but that’s what I think

there is one.

Is it true

that you also walked back for lunch

and then returned for classes -

is that how it worked?

I can’t remember

that part, I can’t remember.

Right.

But - I - what I do know is

there was more than 1 hour

of lunch break;

I think about 1 and half hours.

Yes.

If I don’t remember,

if I - if I am recollect correct,

certainly after coming to

Cauvery hostel,

Yes.

it was - the classes were from

7:30 to 11:30 or

11:45, and afterwards

it would start at 1:15

or 1:30

to 4:30.

Yes.

Therefore, there was more than

1 hour gap

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] for the lunch

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] and maybe we did go

because otherwise

we would not have had lunch.

Eh, your -

[Mr. Ramachandra] I mean we did not. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.

Oh, yeah it must have

happened that way

now that you are -

because we were not given any

lunch boxes or anything.

Yes.

So, we had to go back

you know, yeah.

Because there was no lunch boxes

packed or anything like that.

Right.

Who were your instructors then

and what classes did you have

in the first year and - and

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] the second year? [Mr. Ramachandra] First year we had maths.

Yes.

I think we had physics,

there was a Workshop

you know fitting.

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes, yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] And, I didn’t

like it at all, incidentally.

Most people didn’t,

if you're not a mechanic,

if you didn’t want to take

mechanical engineering.

Yes.

I always already, then

I thought it was a waste of my time

Yes, yes.

because I used to also get blisters.

That’s right.

See, my hand is very soft even today

and at that time, even softer.

So, whenever you do that.

Yes.

I was a very

lean person.

You know, I

I didn’t have the strength

to do those things.

Yes.

And there is no allowance made

for a weak student or a

good - strong student.

Right.

You have to do it

Everyone does it.

Everybody has to.

That’s right

And I was not - actually

I was unfit for that

kind of a thing,

to be very honest,

yeah. So, there was this

fitting workshop

and then there was - I think

I think -

there was a drafting class.

I don’t know if it is in the first year

or second year

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] but certainly

it was in one of the 2 years.

Drafting, fitting,

I think English also was there,

if I'm not mistaken.

Yes.

Maths was there,

physics was there.

Yes.

I think chemistry also.

There were no

engineering courses;

it had not yet started.

Right.

Yeah, that started from the

second year - to -

to the best of my

recollection,

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Right. [Mr. Ramachandra] memory,

I - I think no engineering courses

were offered at that time,

yet.

Did - did you have practical sessions

in laboratories

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] in chemistry and physics? [Mr. Ramachandra] I think in physics and -

physics and chemistry we did.

Yes.

Yeah, yeah.

Those were labs also in

A.C. College of technology.

Yeah,

I remember that yeah,

they were - I am sure they were.

That's because - because

we had physics and chemistry,

I am kind of inferring

[Mr. Ramachandra] I'm - [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.

But - and I also know that

I was - I now remember

where - which lab

I was standing and all that.

But, I - I'm not 100 percent sure

whether it was first year or second year,

but I think it was in the first year.

And your classmates

you … who were they and

who were your closest friends?

Well, even now it is

the same friends,

which I had now

were also my closest friends then.

Yes.

So, Koteeswaran

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] is one of them,

then Mahadevan,

Srinivasan,

Amudacharya, I knew a little bit,

but at that time he was not

one of my closest friends.

There is another person called

P. K. Prabhakaran.

Have you done an interview with him?

[Mr. Ramachandra] No? [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] No.

He is a - he is also in Civil engineering.

He was a Civil engineer

but he was later in Cauvery hostel

on - on my same corridor,

some 3 rooms further away.

So, he became a

good friend of mine.

Yes.

But the closest were

Koteeswaran,

Mahadevan,

Srinivasan, another person called

Mohan.

I think he's now in France.

There was another person

no, at that - not in the first year -

in the first year, I was not

very close to another person called

Eswaran.

He - he - he is also an

Electrical engineering student

but in the first year

I didn’t know him so well.

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] Because

when we joined

Electrical engineering together

in the third year,

since then - from that time

onwards he was also a close friend.

First year like

I'm just trying to think

who was, who else was there,

these were very close:

Mohan, Koteeswaran,

Srinivasan, Mahadevan

yeah, of course,

Pattabhiraman,

who was my roommate.

Your roommate.

Roommate.

I can’t remember now, this.

Another point is

I was

I was a little bit of an introvert,

I was a shy person.

I was not like you know

some people are, you know,

bursting with, you know, energy

and they will start talking

and interacting,

that I do now, today.

Today I interact with

A child of 5 - 200.

But, in those days I was

I was an introvert.

So, I didn’t have that many friends

in the first year.

Yes.

There might have been another

couple of - or 2 or 3,

but now

I can’t remember the names.

But these were definitely closest

what I mentioned here.

Yes,

and so, this went on for 2 years

this system of classes

[Mr. Ramachandra] Yeah. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] in A.C. Tech

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Workshop, nearby. [Mr. Ramachandra] Yeah,

yeah.

Now, do you have

recollections of

Professor Sengupto

from those days?

Yeah.

The Director.

We didn’t have too many interactions

that was my regret, actually.

He did not have too many interactions

with the students like

every 3 months or any such thing,

what we do now is …

he - he came with a reputation

that he is a very systematic person

and he is a good administrator.

Yes.

And … he is also very strict

coming from the, you know,

services, army, I think,

I don’t know

whether there was an army or air force,

but he is from the services.

Actually, we have very little information about his -

Is that so?

Yes.

[Mr. Ramachandra] Ok. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] His career before he

But, he is -

joined the VJTI at Bombay.

But he was from the services,

he has worked in the services.

He - he made speeches which were

to the point, you know,

but … I - if I may be honest,

the speeches which inspired all of us

was that of Natarajan.

Natarajan, the registrar.

I mean, he was just too good.

So, this - their speeches

which always stayed with us

Yes.

were those of R. Natarajan.

And Mr. Sengupto

he was all to the point,

business-like, whatever

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] needed to be said,

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] he would say it

whereas

Natarajan would digress a little bit,

make a story.

Yes.

And it'll be a humorous one.

Yeah.

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] So, it was always great

to listen to him.

Right.

Yeah, and his command of the English language

I have -

I have met few people like him

in my life

who can speak so well.

Yeah, yeah

Mr. - Mr. Natarajan was the registrar.

Yeah.

So, which is really an administrative

post.

Yeah.

But still he knew number of students

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] and [Mr. Ramachandra] Yeah.

met with them.

So, what did he

how did this happen, how -

did he come out to your hostel

to talk with you or -

Actually, it didn’t happen

too much with me.

Yes.

I don’t know with - with

how many students he talked -maybe

the ones who were, you know,

I was in the kind of third or

in my - in the first two years,

I was not one of the better students

let’s say,

I was a average to above slightly;

from third, I started doing very well because,

I final - I - I finished with the first class.

So, from third year onwards

I started doing much better because,

there is a more focus

on my own field of studies.

I don’t know whether he spoke

with many students -

maybe he might have

or maybe also that,

he did it at a time when

I - I was gone

either I was playing

somewhere.

So, I have seen him maybe

1 or 2 times in the hostel,

but he never had a chat with me -

let’s put it that way.

So …

maybe he has had a chat

with people like Koteeswaran or

Srinivasan,

it might have been.

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes, yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] Yeah, yeah.

You - you had a - a - a warden

for your hostel.

Yes, yes.

Do you know …

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] what? [Mr. Ramachandra] think

for Cauvery it was.

Yeah.

At least the first year,

Yes.

the Head of the Department of

Chemical - Chemical Engineering.

Venkateswarlu.

Yes.

D. Venkateswarlu.

Professor Venkateswarlu,

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] Professor Venkateswarlu.

Yes.

Am I correct?

Yes,

because, in my yes

he was a warden for the first year

of the Cauvery hostel.

Whether he was for all the years

that I studied, I can’t remember,

but certainly first year

maybe even - maybe in 2 years.

Because we finished 2 years in

in Saidapet.

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Saidapet, yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] And, then we

came here.

Yes.

So, in the - in my third year of study,

he was the warden.

Yeah.

And whether he was also

in the fourth year of study,

I don’t remember.

What was

the academic pressure like -

what - how many exams

did you have to write and … ?

I think there were about -

we didn’t have a semester system,

I think you must be knowing that.

Yes, for

for you it was the

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] annual year system. [Mr. Ramachandra] Full year

[Mr. Ramachandra] annual year. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.

And from beginning.

So, like, say from like July till

the next May or June

when the year ended,

probably, we had 2 or 3 in between

and then a final exam

and …

There - there was a

system of surprise periodicals

at some point.

Yeah, yeah sometimes

but there were not

too many of those.

There were some

and not in all subjects;

in some subjects.

What I remember about exams is

because there were 2 or 3 tests

in between,

so, the material was not for

the whole year,

[Mr. Ramachandra] but it was lesson, you know, [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yeah.

just like in the semester system also

yeah,

you have only half the material

Yes.

if you take a full course

for 2 semester.

So, I - I didn’t find the material

as a - as such too much or anythingm

but you find sometimes a topic

which you don’t understand so well.

So, I can’t remember

specifically

that there was a excessive pressure

because of the material,

but sometimes a

a certain topic in a subject

was difficult

and that required

additional study or consultation

with either another

peer

another student or

you have to go to the

professor

or lecture and then,

you know, have a separate

discussion on that.

Yes.

But I -

I don’t particularly remember

that I had a problem with

the amount - volume of study

that had to be done.

Anyway,

I used to wake up very early,

I should wake up at 4 o’ clock or

so 4, 4:30

Yes.

to study for

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] I see. [Mr. Ramachandra] exams yeah.

I see.

And then 1 week or 2 weeks

in advance,

I would start

waking up early

so that - it - some extra hours

were made available,

yeah, yeah.

But I was - compared to

some other students

in one of my -

one of the students

in my corridor made a

joke actually,

when I came -

when we came

for the golden jubilee celebration.

Yes.

I didn’t know

tha - that I was doing it

but he noticed it

that I was one of those

who slept very early

by 10, 10:30

my - there were no lights

in my room.

But he also knew that

I was an early riser by 4, 4:30

whereas the other students

woke up a bit late

and studied till midnight.

Yes.

And,

yeah it's a question of

choice what you do,

I was trained at home

you know

in - by my parents to wake up early.

Yes.

Because that’s when the

brain is fresh

after some rest, so.

Yes.

But, there are others

who were night -

they like to study

more at night,

they - it's - it's very

person-dependent.

That’s right.

And that man who made a joke

that student -

"Oh, Ramachandran

you are the great guy

who slept at 10 o’ clock.

I said what is so great about -

I should wake up early,

Yes.

I compensated.

That’s right.

Yeah,

when I was in the golden jubilee

[Mr. Ramachandra] I was - [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yeah.

He was - he was always a

humorous person.

[inaudible] 2, 3 rooms away

[Mr. Ramachandra] yeah. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes,

going on a different tack,

[Mr. Ramachandra] Yeah. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] what was the

kind of fees

that students had to pay

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] in those days? [Mr. Ramachandra] 300

300 for -

Per year.

Very -

Yes.

Peanuts

for the kind of study

we get - it -

That’s it. Yeah.

300 in all.

That’s it, yeah.

Right.

Yeah.

Did you have to

have hostel fees to be paid

do you know

how much that was

above this?

Tuition was 300 rupees.

Yes.

Whether the 300 became more

in the fifth year,

I can’t remember.

Yes.

It might have slightly increased,

but nothing dramatic.

It was really very very economical.

That’s right.

And …

hostel

what I remember is

my dad is to send

the first 1 or 2 years

50 rupees a month.

Yes.

And, later

I was getting 75 rupees per month

and I can’t remember that

I paid anything for the hostel.

Those were - that

money was meant for

you know mess,

canteen

and little bit of pocket money

to go to movie or going out

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] and

take eat in a restaurant or something.

Yeah.

But I can’t remember that

there was any hostel fees.

Maybe, maybe

you know, also.

Well, it subsequently

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] be - in my - in my period in the '80s, [Mr. Ramachandra] Yeah.

we did have a separate

[Mr. Ramachandra] Yeah. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] hostel bill.

Ok.

and that was based on a

a daily rate.

Ok.

For per day would be …

I - I -

5 rupees or so.

In my time by the '80s,

it was 12 rupees or so.

Sorry,

you know, you're right

it was about 8 rupees.

But I - I - I begin to

I don’t believe

I paid any hostel fees.

You know.

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] And, it's [Mr. Ramachandra] But maybe

some of my classmates will

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] confirm

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] whether

I am right or wrong.

Yes,

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] yeah. [Mr. Ramachandra] In so far as I remember,

I have not paid any hostel fees.

I see.

Ok.

You know, at - the - the whole thing

was very very economical, studies

yeah.

I think it's all

Government Of India money.

That’s true,

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] Taxpayers' money.

Yes.

Yeah, yeah.

So,

do you have recollections of the

the inaugural - inauguration

of the institute

the 31st July,

when it was formally

started?

Regretfully, no.

I can’t remember, no,

I don't have, you know, the slightest idea

what happened at that time.

[Mr. Ramachandra] It’s more than 55 years ago. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.

That’s right.

You know, you know, some people might have remembered

but I didn’t.

I don’t even remember who did it actually,

Lal Bahadur Shastri had come?

Humayun Kabir.

I'm sorry?

Humayun Kabir.

Humayun Kabir okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, Humayun Kabir.

Yes, yeah.

Yesterday, I had seen it in the photos.

Yes.

Now, maybe I remember Humayun Kabir,

but I can’t remember anything of that event.

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Apparently, a foundation stone was laid. [Mr. Ramachandra] Yeah.

We have that stone now at the Heritage Centre.

[Mr. Ramachandra] Ok. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] On - on display here.

Now, once you mentioned Humayun Kabir,

I - I - I kind of remember that something like that

I have attended

but what I can’t remember is what exactly happened.

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] You know the the rest of the proceedings

I don’t remember.

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] So, then in 1961, according to our records,

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] the first buildings on campus were opened [Mr. Ramachandra] Right.

for - you know, for teaching or for staying in.

[Mr. Ramachandra] Yeah. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] So, you went to Cauvery Hostel.

Cauvery hostel.

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] Yeah.

And that of course,

made moving to classes

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] and back much easier. [Mr. Ramachandra] Very easy - much easier.

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] Very comfortable.

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] Yeah, yeah.

So, according to what we know, the first classes

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] were all held in the Building Sciences Block. [Mr. Ramachandra] Yes,

[Mr. Ramachandra] correct. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] What is today the

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] BSB. [Mr. Ramachandra] Civil engineering.

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes, the [Mr. Ramachandra] Yeah.

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Civil Engineering Department. [Mr. Ramachandra] Yeah, yeah, yeah,

that’s true.

But very soon thereafter

electrical engineering department was also ready

whether it is 3 months, 6 months or 1 year I don’t know.

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] But I don’t believe it's more than a year.

[Mr. Ramachandra] Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] Within a year or so, electrical engineering department -

that’s where my classes were -

that came up, yeah.

Were there any signs of plenty of construction going on

because everything was trying to be built

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] in a short period. [Mr. Ramachandra] Yeah … Yeah, yeah.

D'you have - do you remember that?

The - the impression I carried then and even now

is it could have been faster,

let’s put it that way.

I - I had that impression

and I don’t know what the - what the constraints were,

what the limitations were,

but the - the impression I did

get is that it could have been faster.

But I am sure there were reasons

you know, there were some constraints and

I am not familiar with them.

I - I recollect seeing there was a

shortage of cement possibly or

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] is it steel?. [Mr. Ramachandra] Could have been. Yeah, yeah. In those days, that is.

At some point yes.

[Mr. Ramachandra] In those days, oh yeah, [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.

now that you mention, everything was in shortage.

And, cement was allocated literally

[Mr. Ramachandra] you know, [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] I see.

yeah, by the government you know

and that might have been a reason.

Yeah and I might have remembered

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] I might have known that at that time [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.

but now I have forgotten.

But … I still felt how long is it going to take, you know.

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] Yeah, like that yeah.

But as I said, you know, the reason it

tooks some more time

there must have been good reasons for it.

We just as students didn’t know them, all of them

Yes, that’s right.

Well, we have … we see what it was to be

a student from writings that your colleagues have,

your batch mates have written in the Annual Number

which you see in front of you and

[Mr. Ramachandra] Yeah. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Campastimes and so on.

So, we understand that there was a

strong emphasis on extracurricular activities …

Yeah, I mean.

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] from day 1. [Mr. Ramachandra] There were facilities provided.

From day 1. Yeah

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yeah. [Mr. Ramachandra] There were good facilities provided.

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] I mean like you know table tennis

[Mr. Ramachandra] and then tennikoit. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.

Tennikoit is something very unique to

Tamil Nadu actually.

[Mr. Ramachandra] I never played it, I came from Gujarat. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.

And, then ball badminton,

ball badminton is also very unique to Tamil Nadu.

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] I see. [Mr. Ramachandra] I have never played it before

and even here I didn’t play after coming

because that ball is coming at such a high speed;

you have to have a - you know, you should play it for

a long time before you get the hang of it

but I was playing shuttle.

Shuttlecock I could play,

I could play table tennis, I even played cricket.

I played carrom.

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] I think chess if I am not mistaken,

what are … now I - we were actually quite busy with games.

So, after we came, it -

there was more opportunities for relaxation.

So, I mean if you don’t like

[Mr. Ramachandra] let’s say badminton but you like tennikoit. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes

There they were called courts for tennikoit

and I - I - I think there were later even courts for tennis,

but when they came, I don’t remember.

I was never, I never played tennis,

but cricket ground was there

and we played cricket, Koti used to play

[Mr. Ramachandra] everywhere. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Were these located around the Cauvery hostel?

Not too far away; no, not Cauvery hostel

but not too far away from where we are staying,

[Mr. Ramachandra] exactly where I forgot now. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.

In fact, I - very many evenings

[Mr. Ramachandra] I played tennikoit with Srinivasan, [Mr. Ramachandra] Yes.

with Mahadevan, that’s also way of making friends.

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] That’s right. [Mr. Ramachandra] Oh, there is another person called B. Gopalakrishnan.

He is from Civil Engineering,

he was a very close friend of mine.

Yeah.

Even he might have become friend even in the first year.

Very nice person, very decent gentleman

even in those days also.

One of the most decent persons I met, yeah.

There - there was more competitive sports as well

in the sense that there were inter IIT sports

coming up. [Mr. Ramachandra] Right, right.

So, did you represent the institute?

I was not good in any any of them to be able to do that,

[Mr. Ramachandra] you know, like table tennis I played for fun. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.

But the real good ones were others

[Mr. Ramachandra] like Srinivas Nageswar. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.

And - and also S. Gopalakrishnan.

[Mr. Ramachandra] They were good in table tennis. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] yes.

In cricket I was

I have played a match: inter-class match.

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] I think my class against another class.

[Mr. Ramachandra] Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] But, nothing against an another IIT.

Because, you know, for to play against another IIT

you have to choose everybody who is already

[Mr. Ramachandra] available in the all the classes of IIT. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.

[Mr. Ramachandra] Not just my class [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.

[Mr. Ramachandra] but all the years. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] That’s right.

And then you get maybe about 5 - 600 students

or more

and they are much better players you know.

Then there was a sportsman by name Dominic.

[Mr. Ramachandra] Yeah, he was very good. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Jacob Dominic.

[Mr. Ramachandra] He was very good at hockey. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes, right.

I think he was good in hockey and also in

ball badminton, he was an amazing player.

Ball badminton.

[Mr. Ramachandra] He is right now in the US, yeah. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Ok.

Also, again a very nice person, you know.

We - we understand he was a

an all rounder as sportsman.

[Mr. Ramachandra] Yeah, yeah he - [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] I think.

[Mr. Ramachandra] ball badminton, what else he played,

[Mr. Ramachandra] maybe the normal badminton also. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.

But I can’t remember if he played cricket,

[Mr. Ramachandra] that I don’t know hockey, yes he played. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Hockey.

[Mr. Ramachandra] I think so, yeah. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes, right.

There was a hockey team.

There was another person called Chandy, Chandy.

[Mr. Ramachandra] But, he is a one class, one batch lower. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.

He was very good in hockey.

Yeah, hockey.

And IIT Madras of course, was

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] started with German assistance. [Mr. Ramachandra] Yeah.

So, we know that there were

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] German technicians and professors. [Mr. Ramachandra] Professors yeah.

here … on campus.

So, do you have recollections of their

classes or interacting with them?

Well of course, nobody forgets Dr. Koch.

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] K-o-c-h.

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] Koch.

Now, I have to be - if I will be very frank and honest about it,

I had difficulty in following every German professor.

And the reason was

it may sound as if I'm blaming somebody else

but they they were not be - able to express

that - their thoughts -

in English in a proper way.

And … because I had - I did very well in nearly

all courses taught by Indian professors.

but I had difficulty in following the German professors.

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Right. [Mr. Ramachandra] I was - I had difficulty also to take notes.

And they did not have a - a specific textbook

which they say ok,

this is what you will find in that textbook

go and take it.

So, they would sometimes give a handout

you know, and even those handouts should be also crisp

and sort of paraphrasing or summarizing,

not explaining in detail.

So, I was one of those - maybe there were more students like me

but I certainly had problem with any subject

where I cannot have a proper textbook.

and where you have to learn only from the professor

and if he himself doesn’t explain very well,

and you cannot take very good notes -

I was not able to take good notes also.

So, in that - in that area, Srinivasan, Mahadevan - they helped me.

You know, for - I would go to them and

[Mr. Ramachandra] and take the notes from them - [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.

they helped me.

Without those - that help, I would have had great difficulty.

But the - the difficulty I had was also that

there were no textbooks which were say, ok,

now you go and read this material in that particular textbook.

So, I had … I was kind of and I - I - I think in

one of those courses offered by them, I got an A or

… I'm not sure if I got an S,

I might have got an A,

but in the others, I got a B, I think mainly

and from third year onwards,

I got almost all subjects A and S.

[Mr. Ramachandra] But these were these professors were mainly. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] The S being the top grade.

[Mr. Ramachandra] S being the top grade yeah. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.

S was super or

something like that

and … now I don’t know what it is

the system is different, is it, today?

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] System is changed. [Mr. Ramachandra] Yeah.

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes, little, yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] A there was.

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] A, B there was A, S, A, B, C.

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yeah. [Mr. Ramachandra] S was the highest,

but from third year onwards, I think

I got almost no Bs or very few.

But, in the first two years I had a couple

and that were also in - in the courses

offered by the German professors,

certainly in those I think, maybe

in one I got - might have got anybody,

I am not - I don’t remember; so, a long time.

So, another thing is there is another aspect to it.

We were all children actually,

I mean we are - 17 year old is not really an adult.

When I joined, I was 16 years or 6 months or something.

So, what happens is boys or girls of that

age some of them are already mature

[Mr. Ramachandra] to the point where they can they come here to study. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.

They know their duty as a student

and the - and the promise they made to their parents,

that they will do their best and they are able to keep it

and they were able to focus no matter

how a professor presents the material.

There are others who are little bit more childlike.

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] Do you understand what I mean?

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] Little bit more like children.

You mean they need guidance,

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] more guidance? [Mr. Ramachandra] No, they their mind starts wandering.

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Ah, yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] Because.

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] The material is at the - at not being explained

in the manner that they can appreciate

and then the mind starts wandering

and they are not able to control it,

they're not able to focus on what’s going on -

I was one of them.

Because, my mind would start wandering

if the material presented was not clear

and not in a manner that I would have liked.

It did not hold your attention.

[Mr. Ramachandra] It did not hold my attention. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.

So, that was my problem.

So, it could have been …

and the combination of both -

the way the material was -

I was not mature maybe, at that age.

Because, if I look at my career later

you know, I think if I look back,

I might have understood it better

if I'd focused on it more, if I'd concentrated,

but I was unable to do it, yeah.

So, but I am nothing

I mean I - I got through those - that period,

but those were the subjects which

[Mr. Ramachandra] presented the maximum challenges for me. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.

Not those taught by Indian professors,

they were all for me straightforward.

Were you involved in the NCC activities

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] in - on campus? [Mr. Ramachandra] No, no, I was not.

And, the campus itself was of course,

a different kind of campus because

[Mr. Ramachandra] It was still big. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] so much of it was forest and

[Mr. Ramachandra] Yeah. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] it had not been built upon.

[Mr. Ramachandra] Yeah. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] So, what do you recollect of that campus?

Exactly what you said: lot of forest,

[Mr. Ramachandra] hardly any buildings. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] And we had to walk a long distance to the main gate [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.

to catch a bus or a or a taxi or whatever.

So, but all those things it never bothered us

you know, at that age

[Mr. Ramachandra] we sort of took it all in our stride. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.

That we said: :Okay,

we've to walk for 40 minutes or 30 minutes,

what is there?" like that. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Right.

And, most of the thing is - of course,

we saw lot of deer even those days,

you know, spotted deer and all of that

and sometimes of course, we would feel: oh

if the tranfortation was bit better,

like you know, more buses came or things like that.

[Mr. Ramachandra] Buses started coming actually. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yeah.

But … because for the weekend

we would always stay inside,

the (campus); I never went out of the campus

in - except on weekends

[Mr. Ramachandra] and also not all weekends [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.

[Mr. Ramachandra] because I have a lot of relatives in Chennai. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.

So, I used to go maybe once in 2 weekends

[Mr. Ramachandra] or so, to stay with them. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.

On Friday night or so, I would go,

but some people went every weekend

[Mr. Ramachandra] because like Koteeswaran, his family is here. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.

You know he is from Chennai.

So, his parents are also here.

So, he went every weekend

whereas, in my case uncle, aunt, like that.

So, I didn’t go every weekend.

So, you know the main thing about the campus was

it was very nice in terms of greenery,

very quiet,

the roads were kind of still kutcha roads,

not all roads were still, you know, paved the way they are.

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] They are - they are now fantastic here.

Everything is kept very well now, so.

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] Quality of maintenance is tip-top

right now, yeah.

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Were there actually just tracks there, mud tracks, [Mr. Ramachandra] Yeah.

[Mr. Ramachandra] in those days? [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] I mean, mud tracks;

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] basically, majority … at least

half of them were mud tracks

[Mr. Ramachandra] and so, when there was rain, [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yeah.

it was slushy, it was kind of, yeah.

Your trousers would get dirty

[Mr. Ramachandra] and things like that. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes, that’s right.

Yeah, but at - in that age

[Mr. Ramachandra] we don’t bother about those things. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] That’s right.

Sometimes you will get annoyed but mostly not.

And, during the monsoons, it can rain quite heavily.

[Mr. Ramachandra] Yeah, yeah, yeah. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes, yes.

[Mr. Ramachandra] Sure yeah. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] That’s right.

But yeah, I mean, we - we still loved to be here

let’s put it that way,

[Mr. Ramachandra] we enjoyed being here. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] That’s right, yes.

Was the city also remote in that sense

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] in those days, because it has grown a lot now. [Mr. Ramachandra] Yeah.

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] So, to reach - [Mr. Ramachandra] It was a -

go from here to where your relatives were,

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Well,- [Mr. Ramachandra] did it take time?

I would - I would - I had - until the - I know the buses came

when I was staying in the hostel -

whether it was the fourth or fifth year I can’t remember -

but at least for 1 or 2 - 1 year minimum, maybe one and half,

2 years I should walk to the gate

and from there, I would take either an auto or a … or a taxi;

[Mr. Ramachandra] those days Madras taxis were also there, I mean, [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.

I'm not talking about Uber or Ola,

but the normal taxis,

[Mr. Ramachandra] like in Bombay there are there yellow-top taxis. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.

So, here also we had those kind of taxis,

but they were mostly Ambassadors here.

And while coming back also I had come home,

I had come right up to the hostel by taking a taxi.

So, I mean, the - the accessibility was bit of a problem,

but you have to plan it that’s all, I mean, that means

if you want to reach somewhere, you've to plan minimum 1 hour

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] or 1 hour, 20 minutes.

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] That’s right. [Mr. Ramachandra] That’s - I mean -

so, apart from that I mean it’s just a 30 minutes walk,

[Mr. Ramachandra] I mean, in that age, you know, walk - [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.

[Mr. Ramachandra] nobody bothers about [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.

30 minutes walk, yeah.

And of course, telephones were -

[Mr. Ramachandra] Not there. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] far fewer, practically not there.

No, no, not there.

They were not there.

There was actually in the - in the warden’s -

[Mr. Ramachandra] there was a warden’s office [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.

in the ground floor of Cauvery.

There was a telephone there,

[Mr. Ramachandra] so … I hardly meet made use of it. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yeah.

Some people, maybe you know, made use of it to call their parents

or if they were not going to come or they were delayed -

I never made use of it

[Mr. Ramachandra] but I know there was a telephone there. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Right.

[Mr. Ramachandra] Assistant warden’s office, I think that was. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.

There were also person who was there kind of 24 hours,

a caretaker or whatever; of course, Venkateswarlu -

Dr. Venkateswarlu was not there all the time,

but there was somebody else.

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yeah. [Mr. Ramachandra] Yes … in 1962,

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] apparently the Open Air Theatre was inaugurated. [Mr. Ramachandra] Yes, yes.

And, the first use it was made of was to receive the

the German president, President Lübke.

Yeah, yeah.

And was that an - an incident that you remember?

Very vaguely, very vaguely.

I can’t give too many details of that,

but what you say, yeah, that part I remember,

[Mr. Ramachandra] but not much more, [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.

[Mr. Ramachandra] no, no. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yeah.

What I do remember about the Open Air

[Mr. Ramachandra] Theatre is we used to go there for movies. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes, yes.

[Mr. Ramachandra] They were screened [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.

I think, once a week or something like that.

So, we used to go there for that.

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Right. [Mr. Ramachandra] But since I was not a very good sportsman,

[Mr. Ramachandra] so, I haven’t played there inside the stadium or anything - [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.

any game or something like that.

And once you came to your departmental courses,

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] was it in the Electrical Sciences Building that you had [Mr. Ramachandra] Yeah.

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] your classes, all your classes? [Mr. Ramachandra] Yeah,

all of them in the Electrical, yeah,

[Mr. Ramachandra] I mean, the electrical engineering courses were there [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.

but even then, at that time we had some maths course I think

and then we had to go to some other building

but all the electrical engineering courses

were in that building only.

[Mr. Ramachandra] Yes. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] So, were the German test equipment and so on

[Mr. Ramachandra] Those were all fine. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] installed right

there in the beginning? Yeah.

I mean, they came in, you know, in - in - in a certain speed.

Whether they were all available

when we needed them, I can’t remember

but they were coming at - at regular intervals,

the equipment.

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] I remember, there is a … High Voltage Lab [Mr. Ramachandra] Yes.

in which there you could have a electrical discharge by

[Mr. Ramachandra] Yes, yes. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] just raising the voltage.

[Mr. Ramachandra] Yeah, yeah. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Was that an early piece of equipment,

was it there in your time?

I think it was,

because there was a course on that

I mean, related to high voltage,

but 100 percent I am not sure.

[Mr. Ramachandra] Yeah, most probably it was but [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Right.

I can’t remember.

Who - who were your teachers from your department,

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] can you name some of them? [Mr. Ramachandra] Professor Sampath.

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] He - as a matter of fact, I took

I was in Heavy Current

where, you know, these transformers, high voltage

[Mr. Ramachandra] and then this electric distribution - transmission - [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yeah.

distribution transformers, motors, electrical generation

all of that was taught,

I will - unfortunately I made the wrong choice;

I should have taken electronics

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] that is what - it used to be called LC - [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] LC.

but Professor Sampath taught a course

in third year on electronics

and that inspired me to move, get out of my

whatever field I was in

[Mr. Ramachandra] to the field that I wanted to go [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.

[Mr. Ramachandra] because his presentation was superb. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.

And the same of V. G. K. Murti,

[Mr. Ramachandra] Professor V. G. K. Murti. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.

P. Venkat Rao, very - I mean

P. Venkat Rao tended to be very fast.

You have to be you can’t even -

you can’t let your eye even blink.

I see.

The speed at which he was talking

was amazing

but still it was presented in a manner that, no problem,

I mean it was enjoyable to

[Mr. Ramachandra] learn from him. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.

V. G. K. Murti was top class,

Sampath also.

And, then Professor Sampath and then, of course,

there was Mr. Ramaswamy.

[Mr. Ramachandra] He was also - [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] B. Ramaswamy.

[Mr. Ramachandra] B. Ramaswamy. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.

He was a good lec - he was - at that time was a lecturer

and then he became assistant professor,

I - I believe he even became a head of the department

at some point

but his presentation of the material was very good

but it was not like - he was not an inspiring teacher -

but he was good, he would give the technical details nicely,

whereas, Sampath - Mr. Sampath - Professor Sampath

and V. G. K. Murti and P. Venkata Rao,

they are inspiring speakers.

[Mr. Ramachandra] I think they had that skill [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.

which not everybody has.

[Mr. Ramachandra] They were gifted. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Right.

Yeah, yeah, and therefore, everybody enjoyed then,

there is not a single person who will have a different opinion

you know, on these

on these professors, across the board, you know.

Yes, yes.

I didn’t have of course, courses of Professor Achuthan

because that was in LC -

electronics -so, I can’t say anything about it

but these three I loved them actually, yeah, yeah.

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] So ... [Mr. Ramachandra] It’s a pity I didn’t keep in

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yeah. [Mr. Ramachandra] touch with them, yeah.

So, you ... did you receive your degree here - to -

[Mr. Ramachandra] Yeah, yeah. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] did you come here to collect

[Mr. Ramachandra] I came. I came to - [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] to collect your degree?

Yeah, yeah, I came - came -

because when, you know, it was said that

[Mr. Ramachandra] Dr. Radhakrishnan is going to come [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.

So, I said that is a lifetime - once-in-a-lifetime opportunity.

So, I did come, yeah -

only I came, my parents didn’t come.

[Mr. Ramachandra] I think in some cases some - the parents also came. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.

[Mr. Ramachandra] But in my case, only [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Right.

I came, yeah, yeah.

So, what happened after IIT, what did you do ? What -

Well, actually I had no plans to go abroad or anything.

I just took a job in with Siemens in - actually there

there was a job, a very short job I took before

I joined Siemens in a company

which makes transformers in Bombay

but it - it was having a factory in the place

where there's a lot of flooding at the time of rains.

I worked in that company for 2 weeks

[Mr. Ramachandra] and then I got an interview call from Siemens [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.

and I was selected by Siemens,

so, I quit after 2 weeks.

So, my first job is actually of 2 weeks

and the next one at Siemens a bit more than 1 year,

the idea was - I was - I was [inaudible] between

marketing people and the factory.

So, I had to deal with customers:

their questions related to the factory.

So, I had worked for 1 year in that Siemens company,

[Mr. Ramachandra] you know that is a German company, [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.

you know, but I was not happy

because that - it did not require any of my

technical knowledge to be applied.

I did talk to my boss after 3 months or 6 months

that I would like to go into - into another department,

where they do some design work

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] where there's more engineering -

my engineering knowledge can be applied

and - he said yeah we will do it.

But you know, somewhere at that around that time

my brother and I - my brother was very keen to go abroad

so, he also stimulated me to the U.S. - to go to U.S.

and study there.

So, I started applying for the - for going to the U.S.

and so, see I - I started working maybe

in the beginning of '64 March, April, May -

I can’t remember anymore -

but then, by the end of - by October, November '64,

I was already busy applying for - you know, to go abroad

to - only to the U.S.,

[Mr. Ramachandra] I did not apply to any other country [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] like UK or so. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.

And ... and that, the reason was also because

most of my professors in Electrical Engineering Department

they were all from the U.S.,

[Mr. Ramachandra] Professor Sampath had studied in Stanford. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.

V. G. K. Murti in University of Illinois,

so ... and ... I felt - I also felt that

that might suit my, you know, character,

[Mr. Ramachandra] the - that type of courses offered there. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.

UK ... also, UK takes longer to get a masters,

U.S. is - you know, you can do it in 1 year

or 1 year and 3, 4 months like that,

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] UK usually 2 years.

So, so I applied in the - at the end of 2000 -

beginning of '65 or maybe around by April,

May, I had applied to several universities,

3 of them and I got admission in 2.

one of them I think they didn’t give me because

there was the - at that time

they were asking us to take a GRE test.

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] G - and also English language test.

And somehow, I was - I may be the

only student who did that,

I - I wrote to them that I feel that I - I'm

from a very good institution, premier institution,

IIT Madras and I explained to them

[Mr. Ramachandra] because Americans might not know [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.

[Mr. Ramachandra] what IIT is. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.

And, in those days '65,

I explained to them how, you know, this is a Government Of India

initiative with the German government blah blah blah.

So, my explanation of the IIT was probably 1 full page

and then I also said: look I have a -

these are the my grades and I feel that

there is no reason for me to be tested again with the GRE.

So, I think the University of Illinois,

they didn’t accept my argument

but Berkeley accepted it.

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yeah, yes. Alright. [Mr. Ramachandra] University of California, Berkeley.

So, I didn’t do any GRE

and similarly the English language test

that was compulsory.

Now, there also what I did is I got-

see I have studied everything in English

even from my KG in - in Christian school

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] in Ahmedabad.

And then a 1 year of college pre-university

in - in Ahmedabad that was also, everything in English,

then IIT was in English.

So, what I did is I wrote to my

principal of the school and the principal of the Saint Xavier's

College where I did my PUC

asking them for a testimonial,

a certificate saying that I can understand English,

I can speak English and I am very - I'm fluent in English

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] and that I can follow a course in the U.S.

without any difficulty.

I - I send a request also to

the head of the Department of Humanities here, IIT.

[Mr. Ramachandra] There was a Krishnamurthy I think, one Mr. Krishnamurthy. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.

[Mr. Ramachandra] Am I correct? [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.

Krishnamurthy, he was also very good in English,

I think it was Professor Mr. Krishnamurthy in my time.

I - I remember the name but -

[Mr. Ramachandra] You know, head of the department. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. Yes. I do not know if it was ...

I - I requested him saying, I even

actually, told him what he has to write.

I said: please mention these things

in the testimonial that I have

studied everything in IIT in English

and my fluency is good enough

to take - to follow any course in any

in any American university.

He gave me a nice testimonial

and from Ahmedabad I got out of two places

that I requested, I got one

the other one I don’t know they didn’t reply, respond.

I - I sent those two to Berkeley

to all the three universities which I applied,

Berkeley accepted it.

So, I didn’t take any an English language

[Mr. Ramachandra] test which everybody else did. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.

[Mr. Ramachandra] I didn’t. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yeah. Take the GRE also.

So, that was a very - it - it was a kind of a

what I thought is in case they insist on it,

I will still take i but let me try it

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] yeah, and if they insist, I can always take it.

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Right. [Mr. Ramachandra] So, then I went abroad to the U.S., studied,

I worked for one ... I did my M.S. in Electrical Engineering

[Mr. Ramachandra] and then I ... started working the chips industry. [Mr. Ramachandra] Yes.

[Mr. Ramachandra] You're familiar with the chips industry, I'm sure. [Mr. Ramachandra] Yes.

It so happened that one of the courses that I was taking

in Berkeley was taught by a visiting lecturer

from the East Coast

[Mr. Ramachandra] from Maryland. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.

[Mr. Ramachandra] and Berkeley is in the - in California, West Coast. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.

So, that gentleman a - a - a Chinese actually.,

he - when he finished the course,

he asked all of us if - those who want to

come and work in that company on the East Coast

please come and see me. So, I went there and - and

two other Indians also went

and he gave us an application form and he signed it

saying, so that he can recognize

[Mr. Ramachandra] when the application form comes there. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.

That it has been given to his student by him.

So, I fill it and send it and then

I got - he asked me to come for an interview and I took a job,

when I had a job in California also

and most of my Berkeley friends, Indian friends,

they chose not to get out of California.

They felt California is the - the best place to live

[Mr. Ramachandra] and in Maryland the winters can be severe. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.

So, he said- they even asked me: why are you going there?

I was the only person who left,

I said no, because I like this man,

the gentleman is a very experienced person

so, I I think I can learn more from him,

whereas, in California my

when I - I got a job with - in - in one company

and my - the person who might have been my boss

or who would have been boss

was probably 3, 4 years older than me.

So, he certainly was more knowledgeable in that field,

but the one in the other company where I went to

[Mr. Ramachandra] he was at least 20 years more older than me [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.

and he is extremely experienced,

[inaudible] later I found out - I didn’t know it;

when I took the job I didn’t know,

that he had already published 25 newspaper - papers

in - in different journals on chips.

He had 25 patents also, U.S. patents.

[Mr. Ramachandra] So, you know, I was lucky to go and work for somebody [Mr. Ramachandra] Yes.

[Mr. Ramachandra] who is so knowledgeable. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.

So, for me, it - it was not important to stay in California

but it was more important to go to somebody

[Mr. Ramachandra] from whom I can learn. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes, yes.

So, while I was working there then I went to

Johns Hopkins University,

there is a university called Johns Hopkins

in - and there I took ... I did evening course

and took a second master's in management science

because from a very young age

I wanted to go get into management

not into - into research.

I wanted to start in research,

do some development work,

but my aim was to go into senior executive position

because my dad was a senior executive

in textile mills and I - I was sort of

[Mr. Ramachandra] wanted to emulate him. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] You wanted to follow him. [Mr. Ramachandra] Follow his

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] footsteps. Yeah.

So, I said a management degree would help,

an MBA might also have helped

but this was slightly different

but it was still a management degree.

So, and that helped me also

later when I worked for Philips.

So, so, I went - I worked in the U.S. for about 3 and half years,

then I came back to India

[Mr. Ramachandra] with the intention to settle down [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.

but it didn’t- I got married at that time ...

I didn’t - after a few months in Ahmedabad

because that’s where my parents were living -

I got a job in Pune.

A very short - I mean

a job in a very small company,

but they were assembling chips

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] in transistors. Not chips mostly transistors

and they said they will start making chips

sometime in the future

but they didn’t know what they were talking about

because to make chips you need a lot of investment

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] which that company was not capable of doing

but I took the job and because I had nothing else to do

and I didn’t want to sit at home.

And I said: okay, as a first job I'll take it

and then I will see further;

I was also offered an opportunity by

one gentleman to start a company in Ahmedabad.

In fact, he was the managing director

of the company where my father was working.

So, and he said that I would like you to start a company,

I'll do all the negotiations with the Gujarat government

or central government for the licenses and everything else,

so, you don’t - you won’t be bothered about

all those bureaucratic matters,

you just develop a product and then, you know.

But somehow I was not very comfortable

being an entrepreneur, I don’t think I'm an

I didn’t feel I was an entrepreneur.

I was more like a person who worked for a big company.

So, I didn’t take that opportunity.

And then, actually, when I was working

in that small company in Pune,

I read ... article in a - in a trade magazine

that Philips is going to start manufacturing chips

in India. In India.

And so, I sent my application to that

managing director of Philips India.

So, he is the biggest boss in Philips India

and then he called me for interview.

And after the interview, I was - I was told that well,

you seem to have the qualifications

and you could - you will be the first employee,

but ... you need to go to Holland for an interview

because we cannot judge,

they are not - they had no exposure to chips

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] technology. Yes.

So, I went to Holland for 1 week

for interview and they selected me

and they said that - actually they told me

the management of Philips India is saying that

they want you to be here for 4 years

and then they want you back,

but we want you to be here in Holland forever

because we - your background is very suited

for the work which we are doing here.

So, we would like you to be in Holland

but if you choose to go back after 4 years

that’s your decision.

So, so, I - what I did is I - I did

decide to come back to India,

because my - my goal was to settle in India.

So, after three and a half years

I decided, in - in Holland, I decided

I was working in the chips industry there with Philips

I want to go back to India. So, I told them to give me

a job and then Philips India -

I wrote to the management of Philips India -

they offered me a job in Pune

as a development manager,

but in a different environment, not in the chips industry

but in an electronics equipment industry

[Mr. Ramachandra] where, you know, you must be knowing oscilloscopes right? [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.

[Mr. Ramachandra] And digital multimeters. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.

So, if you want to measure voltage or current

instead of analog, with those needle,

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] there are digital multimeter.

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] And then audio systems

if you want to have a - a big conference hall,

and there you have to install a big audio system,

professional type of thing - all those things

were being done in Pune

and they wanted an R and D manager.

So, Philips in India they said we are offering you that job,

we cannot offer you anything in chips

because the chips industry

[Mr. Ramachandra] the license did not come. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.

The Government Of India was putting

so many conditions on Philips,

that Philips said: We will not start up for chips factory,

your conditions are not acceptable -

but I wanted to come back to India.

So, I decided that even if I don’t want

if I don’t get a job in chips in India,

I want to be in India.

So, I came back and so,

I came after four and half years or

[Mr. Ramachandra] 4 years and some months in Holland. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Holland.

I came back to India in Pune

and I worked for 5 years

and then then the story changes a bit.

After 3 years I got, got very disappointed with India.

At that time there was ... emergency, there's all

kinds of unrest in India.

It was not a pleasant time of ... in India

from '75 to '80.

and - and you know, I was also not very happy in the job

[Mr. Ramachandra] because chips was my passion. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.

[Mr. Ramachandra] And, you have to work in a field [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.

where you have a passion, and that equipment was okay,

but you know it is just a job, you know.

You don’t work only for a salary,

you work for something more than a salary.

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] And I could not ...

my father was also very highly technically professional.

So, he saw that I was not doing the right thing.

So, he said: No, you go back to Holland or to the U.S.,

[Mr. Ramachandra] you also worked in the US, but don’t stay here. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.

And I had a technical director in Philips,

also a Tamilian, very nice person.

He knew me because he had -

during my stay in Holland,

he was also there, before he became a director

on the board of Philips India

his - his name is Venkatraman, S. Venkatraman.

He lives in Chennai, he is - he must be 87 now.

Venkatraman said, Mr. Venkatraman said:

Ram you have done work in chips,

even though I was under him;

of course, there was one manager between me and him

he said you don’t stay here,

you go - go to - go back to Holland.

He even said that and when my father

said and he also said,

I went back for my parents actually

you know, because they were getting old.

Then my father said: No, no, don’t stay for us,

you know, because you have to think about

yourself and your children.

So, it was not an easy decision

to leave the country at that time because I'm

first, I was there for 1 year between

U.S. and Holland, I was in India for 1 year

and then after going to Holland

[Mr. Ramachandra] I came back to India for 5 years. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.

with very clear intent to stay in India

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Ok. [Mr. Ramachandra] but it didn’t work out

and maybe I could - if I had still

[Mr. Ramachandra] put up with all the inconveniences, [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.

I might have continued, but I felt that

it was not worth it.

In my perception, it was not worth it.

So, because I didn’t know

[Mr. Ramachandra] when things would get better. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.

At that time it was looking so bleak,

it ... maybe it'd have been better in 3 years' time.

Maybe, you know, in 10 years' time - you don’t know

and the actual fact after I left

you know what happened,

Indira Gandhi was assassinated, you know,

many things happened which were not very nice in India,

unfortunate things happened.

And ... but anyway it is also destiny, you know, somewhere I felt

my mind - my thought process said that

if I have to worry about my future, the - my children’s future

and if things are so uncertain -

today, things are much better

you know, young and many IIT students don’t even go abroad.

They don’t go to the U.S. for studies.

But in - in 1975 to '80 when I was living in Pune,

[Mr. Ramachandra] things were not like that. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.

Pretty bleak, actually.

Yes, there was a lot of migration to the U.S.

during my student days.

[Mr. Ramachandra] Yeah, yeah. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Practically everyone.

[Mr. Ramachandra] Yeah. In my time not much. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] went to study or work in the U.S.

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. [Mr. Ramachandra] I - I mean because, it was very early

[Mr. Ramachandra] going to the US. But, yes [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.

you are right in your time almost 90 percent

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] went to - or 80 percent left. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.

So, then in 1978, '79, I started looking

for a job in Holland or in the U.S.

and the management of Philips, you know,

they were kind enough because,

they'd seen my work in the previous

three and half - four years.

So, "You come back," they said. So, I got a job.

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Right. [Mr. Ramachandra] So, that was.

So, you have been in Holland ever since.

[Mr. Ramachandra] Since 1980 uninterruptedly we have been in Holland. [Mr. Ramachandra] I see.

And we like that country,

[Mr. Ramachandra] it’s a small country. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.

It’s a well managed -

it’s - it’s a kind of a democratic socialism.

And the - the ... what I like about democratic socialist countries is

that the income inequality is less

and the - there is income support for people

who cannot find good jobs.

So, if somebody, because of whatever reason

you know, if there are 100 people,

there might be 20 people in society - in any society -

who are unable to get proper jobs.

Now, we cannot leave them

with such a state of poverty

because that is - in a in a developed

country with a high level of per

capita income like in Holland,

they don’t tolerate poverty.

So, they say: well we had to do something.

So, the whole tax structure - structure -

everything else is such that

on the one hand there is capitalism,

there is a market economy with proper regulations,

at the same time there is income support for people who are not

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. Yeah. [Mr. Ramachandra] doing well.

And then there is a skill training, reskillling.

of the people so that they get some job eventually

and that reskilling can take 6 months,

[Mr. Ramachandra] 1 year, even 3 years. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yeah, oh.

So, the - the purpose is that

there is no poverty. Of course, I don’t say

that that goal has been achieved,

there is maybe still about 3, 4 percent of the people who are poor

but relative to other countries

including the U.S., especially the US,

we have much less poverty.

We have better health care system

and ... there are many things

about it which - you cannot make plenty of money in Holland.

You can make decent money

but you can’t make as much money as in the US.

So, if you have somebody who's very talented

and the main thing was to do is

become a millionaire, multi-millionaire,

make a lot of money, then

Holland is not the place

but you can earn enough to have a good life.

Have you been in touch with IIT since going to Holland?

Unfortunately, not enough

now I regret it, but I did come in there

[Mr. Ramachandra] for the golden jubilee. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.

And that was a very good experience, I - I loved it.

Those 2 days were well-organized

you know all, I mean, how I should say

all kudos or you know, applause to

everybody who who did that.

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes, sure. [Mr. Ramachandra] It’s a fantastic job.

Plus, in addition, I have

the opportunity to meet all my friends

[Mr. Ramachandra] who came back. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.

And some of them I met only after ...

[Mr. Ramachandra] I mean, that was the only time I met after we left the IIT. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes.

[Mr. Ramachandra] So, it was a great day, [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] That is 50 years, yes.

great fun, yeah, yeah.

So - and I should have come on that - for that 25th anniversary

because I was informed about it.

Mahadevan or Srinivasan one of them had informed

and for some reason I didn’t come, I can’t remember

but if I'd come I would have - I would have felt better,

yeah, yeah, sometimes you make mistakes

and then you regret it. Yeah, so, yeah.

But it would have been fun if I had come, really, yeah. So,

[Mr. Ramachandra] so am I - have I taken too much time? [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yeah,

[Mr. Ramachandra] that is just fine. Thank you very much, sir, [Mr. Ramachandra] Yeah, yeah.

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] for having participated. [Mr. Ramachandra] Sure, sure sure.

No, I loved it and maybe I

talked a little bit too much.

No, it was just fine.

[Mr. Ramachandra] Thank you again. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Again, sure thank you.

I would like to first thank Mrs. Mamata Dash

and Mr. Kumaran, head of the

Heritage Centre for making it possible

for me to add a few things

to the interview which was taken of me

at the Heritage Centre, a few months back.

The reason I am doing this is because

I forgot to say a few things

and I would like to complete the interview by

saying these few things.

As far as my career in Holland is concerned,

starting from 1980,

I started as a manager of a small group of 6 engineers

and then moved up

as the general manager of a large

chip-manufacturing facility.

In fact, the 2nd largest

within Philips worldwide in Holland.

And, then I was further promoted as a

vice president of industrial strategy

and operations within the

semiconductor division of Philips.

At the time I had gone to Holland in 1980,

there were not too many Indians

and so, I did - did need to break the glass ceiling.

Since, the Dutch management of Philips

were - were not familiar with ... Indians

to that extent as they are now.

In the meantime, there are many Indians

who have come to Holland,

they are all highly qualified professionals

in different disciplines as engineers,

IT professionals, finance and accounting professionals,

programme managers and you name it.

And, you now have

no glass ceiling up to a very high level.

In fact, the chief financial officer

of Philips electronics at this moment

is of Indian origin

and his background is Chartered Accountancy.

Also the Chartered Accountancy degree, a qualification

which was not very much recognized

when I first went to Holland

is now very much appreciated

as one of the best accounting qualifications in the world.

And there are many many Chartered Accountants

in Holland, besides of course,

many engineers and IT professionals.

There are also all - all the universities in - in Holland

offer Master’s degree

and Ph.D. programmes in the English language

so, much so, that

some of the top universities have

500 to 800 Indian students

doing Master’s degrees and Ph.D. degrees

in engineering, in maths, physics,

and in different other disciplines.

There are also many universities which offer

high quality business programmes like

MBA and doctor of business management.

In all these universities, the programmes are

are all in English and in some universities

and quite a few of them

there are also bachelor’s degree programmes in engineering

and in business administration.

The tuition fees in Holland are a lot lot less

than in the U.S., though the quality of education within

every university in Holland is comparable to the

top 20 universities in the U.S.

As a consequence, I - I do notice that there are many

students who are now coming to Holland

for their further studies

and I hope that this will continue

in so, so far as social life is concerned

there are Indians of - coming from all the states

and that has made it also very interesting to live in Holland.

Finally, the work-life

balance in Holland is much better than in most countries,

the health insurance is of

the world-class quality

and the overall quality of life

is one of the best in the world.

The happiness index measured by the United Nations

in - for people living in different countries

has resulted in the conclusion

that the Scandinavian countries and some other countries plus

Netherlands, Netherlands are the best countries as far as

the happiness level with which people are living there.

These were the things which I wanted to say to -

because, it is not always known to

many Indians who are living in different parts of the world, especially in India.

The opportunities for top-quality professionals who have

already worked in India are very good there,

the company sponsors the these people who

who have good qualifications under

special visa considerations

and these visas are such that

within 5 years after arriving in Holland,

if they perform well as

top professional, can get permanent residence in Holland

and if he chooses to get the - the citizenship of Holland,

he can also get the citizenship

after 5 years of stay in Holland.

The only requirement is

before he gets the citizenship, he has to pass - he or she -

has to pass a simple Dutch language test.

Majority of the - the young people in Holland speak English,

in my time, the people of my generation

understood English but not all of them could speak it fluently.

Today, everybody is learning English

in high school and majority of them

are watching English language programmes

and all the younger people who are people

let’s say below 50, can speak and

understand English very very fluently.

These are the things which make life in Holland very interesting.

I thought I would add this

for the benefit of those who may not know these things.

Thank you very much.

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A talk by Mr. Mallik Putcha, first batch alumnus (1964)

And then, my roll number is 1.04/59

and then the way that we have

come to know of IIT Madras was I think

my elder brothers they were in the academic field.

And so, because of that we knew the importance of the IITs

compared to the other state colleges like

Guindy or other PSG College of Technology

or Kakinada and all of that.

So, if I remember right, the advertisements

came in Hindu and Indian Express

and other local papers, sometime in

May-ish kind of a time frame.

So, I applied for the for the admission and I think

we had the interview call sometime around maybe

1st week in June or maybe end of May, end of May or so.

And so, we had the interviews and then the selection process

was based upon our marks in the pre-university and then

we had an extended interview by about 6 to 8 IIT professors

as well as the German professors.

And I think they had two selection committee

interviews were going on simultaneously.

So, I think they have done it in a matter of a day or 2 at best.

And so, I think after the interviews were over,

we were we we got the selection notice saying that

you have been selected.

And our first batch was about 120 people.

The one thing that I wanted to mention about it was

because they are designated as the

Indian Institutes of Technology

based upon Prime Minister Nehru’s desires,

we had representation all the way from Kashmir to Kerala,

Assam to now at that time Bombay.

So, we are 120 of us and then there the students represented

the entire cross section of India

and we had our first day of classes on June 22nd 1959.

At that time they they call they our classes were conducted

at the AC College of Technology in various rooms

as well as in the Chemistry labs and then Physics lab.

And then the workshop used to be in the back back area

and then the Administration Buildings used to be

at CLRI that’s where the registrars and then the

administration buildings used to be.

One thing that I wanted to mention is

when we came to our first day of classes on June 22nd 1950. July.

July. No, no. June, June, it was June 22nd in 1959,

the entire faculty of IIT Madras approximately

about 25; 20 to 25 people including the German professors

were there on the steps of

AC College of Technology to welcome us.

And I don’t think any anyone, any one of the colleges

at that time would have that kind of an honor

by the by the faculty members of the of any institute

and that’s why it was a really a great privilege to have that.

And then we used to have our classes

Monday through Friday and then Saturday used to be a half day.

And then so, we have 4 sections: A, B, C, D

And then we as we call it, we had a of the sandwich sessions,

A and B used to be in the academic and C and D

used to be in in the workshop.

So, that means, for 40 hours a week

we used to be in the work, I mean the

academic area depending upon the designation.

And then the other people used to be in the workshop,

then they reverse it the following week.

So, the one the the emphasis that Germans

did as as all know, the West German Government

is the one that provided the support,

technical support to IIT Madras.

So, their notion was that you are going to be an engineer.

So, what they wanted to make sure is

when you will be provided with an engineering drawing

and if you are provided with an engineering drawing

you should be in a position to manufacture it.

And then you should be able to read the drawing

and then get the the item manufactured.

You have some small pieces of our workshop products.

We had carpentry, we had smithy and then

we had the lathe work, sometime in 61-62ish,

kind of a time frame when the workshops

were built around not too far from this building.

And I think later on I believe they were

demolished and then all of that.

And so the first one was used to be from,

our classes used to be from 7:30 to 11:30 and then 1 to 4.

And the hostels were at Saidapet Hostels and that

used to be at behind the the Teachers College Campus

and it was actually previously, before we occupied

it was previously a girls hostel with Madras University.

And then so, we were about 80 of us in the Saidapet Hostel

for the vegetarian people and then for the non-vegetarian

people about 40, it used to be at Guindy Hostel.

So, from those that hostel we used to come around

I think leave the hostel after the breakfast

and all of that and come over to the classes around

7:30, with a bicycle; most of us used to come by bicycles.

And of course, you know we used to have some

buses used to be there, but I think

because of the vagaries of the Madras bus transportation

we prefer to come by bus.

And then sometimes I think some people used to come,

you can come across from the little Adyar river over there,

from the back side of the our Saidapet Hostel,

you could come across, but that was only in the

evening kind of a time frame, but morning time frame

generally we used to come by bus.

So, it was not too bad, around the traffic

was not too bad compared to what it is right now.

And so, the classes used to be held

in the AC College of Technology and then the

first class used to be in English, Professor Krishnan

used to be teaching us and he used to teach

teach Hamlet at that time.

So, I think he used to be the Principal at the A.M.

Jain College at Meenambakkam at that time,

and so since he he was teaching us the Hamlet.

So, he used to come with a nice [FL] paan and all of that,

so with the red lips and all of that.

So, when he used to enter the thing in the auditorium

the lecture hall kind of an auditorium

we used to say “enter ghost”.

And so and then when he leaves we used to say,

around classes used to be about 1 hour duration.

And when he leaves around 8:30,

we used to call him “exeunt ghost”,

just to get a little bit of kick out of our classes and all of that.

And then of course, we had Mathematics, Physics, Chemistry.

And Maths professor was used to be the Professor Hahn

and so, when Professor Hahn and then they in the

Mathematics and then Professor Koch Koch in Physics,

the entire faculty of the department

used to be in the back row.

And one comment that I wanted to make a mention

if that as you know after 60 years plus,

generally the German Professor used to teach

in the early stages of our instructions.

And then Sir Professor Hahn used to teach us Mathematics

and then he used to teach the Algebra at that time.

And then Schaum series were very form

for I think they just came into vogue at that time.

So, he used to teach the Schaum series and then in the

the the the algebra from the Schaum series.

So, once in a while Professor S. K. Srinivasan the, at that time

he was the Assistant Professor at

in the Maths Department.

And then so, when he had we made a mistake

or something was incorrect, Professor Hahn used to

have a little habit of putting his finger like this.

And then the moment he puts that finger like this

then Srinivasan used to get very nervous

saying that he made a mistake and then

he used to be little bit jumping

little bit on the platform over there.

So, when he used to do that we knew that Professor Hahn

was putting his finger like this.

So, anyway that was a little bit of a

fun fun factor of the various teachers.

And then the of course, the we had the tutorial classes.

And so, when we had tutorial classes

I think particularly on Saturdays I think,

they used to have various tutorial classes to help us out

with the understanding of the concept to make sure

that we understood the principles behind what they were

talking about in Math, Physics, Chemistry and all of that.

And then we had the Chemistry labs as well as

the Physics labs in the AC College of Technology.

Initially Dr. Venkateswarlu he was actually the professor

in the Chemical Engineering, but he used to be the one

and I think his one of the other names that

I remember was Ram Sharma and then I forget the names,

but there are not that many people in each department

we had about less than 4 to 5 people.

And then Rama Sastry used to be in the Physics Department.

And then I think BHV,

I am not getting I am not getting the name

that few of the people were there.

So, we had a wonderful lab experience and

we used to do the the U-tube principles thing.

And one thing that I wanted to mention,

when we were doing the U-tube

experiment in the Physics lab

that is where the we will have to determine the the

the purpose of the experiment was to determine

the frequency of the tuning fork.

If I remember right there is a standard used to be

around 600 or 650 cycles or whatever.

So, you have the U-tube and then so what you do is

you need to get a resonance when you and then strike the thing

with a rubber mallet and then put it on the top of the thing

and then you get the minimum or the maximum and

all of that based upon the the column of water

you could determine the the tuning fork frequency.

And one of the comments that Professor Rama Sastry

used to make is you need to have a musical ear

to figure out when is the maximum volume and

then when is the minimum volume depending upon the

column of water, but anyway we used to have

lot of fun with the experience.

One thing that I also wanted to mention is most of these

faculty members were around 25 to 35 ish kind of a range

compared to the Director who were maybe 40 plus and all of that.

So, for them in the first few years when we were there,

because we were all around 16 plus 17 in the beginning

and then so were essentially by the time we graduated in 64,

we were about 21, 22 ish kind of a thing.

So, they really the affections that they had for us

in the first batch on their subsequently in the second batches

and third batches were, we were they treated us

more like their younger brothers.

And so we were only 120 you know I think in the

first batch and then similarly in the second

batch also only 120 plus.

So, we had such a close knit kind of a relationship

on a one on one kind of a thing.

So, they know all of our names by first name

and even sometimes our pet names

that our all of us had in some fashion or other.

And then of course, my name was where they my nickname

was PMV my initials and all of that.

Similarly, the other people had some different names

and then so, we had that kind of a close relationship

compared to what it is right now because obviously,

now I was told I think today is the first day of class

I think first I think there are about 850 or 900 people

in the first day or the first I mean first year batch.

There is no way you could have the personal relationship

with the each of the individual ones.

The first two years we were in Saidapet Hostel and

then the the third year beginning of third year

that is June of 1961, we came onto the campus.

We we lived in Krishna and Cauvery

are the first hostel that were built.

Actually Krishna was the first one.

So, the second batch of people actually

came onto the campus first time

they occupied the hostels in 1960.

At that time it was called the Taramani Taramani Hostel

then later on they changed into the

Krishna and Cauvery and all of that.

So, the so basically my room number was

Room 107 Cauvery Hostel

and now I think it is now Room 207.

And we had wonderful time at

because all of us used to be in the hostels.

And one thing that Sengupto

our first Director insisted was that

everybody in the in the in the IIT

has to be resident in a hostel.

There are few of few of our classmates

they had their houses

their parents houses in Saidapet and Adyar and

all of that and they wanted to take a get an exemption,

but he said no, he will not allow that.

So, basically he said ok, if you want to do that that’s fine,

you have to pay your room rent irrespective

whether you stay or not, but finally, anyway

they have to stay and all of that.

So, I think the the thing that I really like in that

one is by staying in the hostels

we developed our soft skills.

And so, because as I was mentioning in the first batch

we had representation across the whole

cross section of the country,

we know the idiosyncrasies of the various people

from the various states their cultural

and then food habits and the idiosyncrasies.

And so by the time that we got to final year in 64,

all our idiosyncrasies and then

sharp corners have been rounded off.

So, that really helped us to whenever we go

and get a job in some other locations across

the country or even for that matter across the world,

we know how to conduct ourselves in the various

social situations as well as in professional situations

with people that are different either Indian or the foreigners or

something of that American and Britishers or something.

So, that helped us to have the different soft skills

and that really helped us out.

And then after the our first day classes

in on campus used to be in 1960, the first building

we had was in the Building Sciences Building and

then the classes used to be held in Room 105

and that’s where most of our classes used to be held.

And then of course, then later on we had the

Mechanical Engineering, Electrical and then I am from Electrical.

And then they had they used to have the

light current designation for the Electronics,

and then the heavy current for the

heavy heavy currents for the Power people.

And so we had our classes in Electrical Engineering Building

I think sometime in 1961.

And then of course, we had the Humanities Building

and then the other workshops and all of that.

And then so I think that’s that was the setup.

And then we had we graduated on on July 11th, 1964.

And then the previous day one fun fact was

the faculty gave the graduand class of 92 plus

and then from B.Tech, and then 15 from the M.Tech people

and a dinner with Hema Malini providing the dance number.

At that time Hema Malini was about 15, 16 years old or something.

And so her family requested our first Registrar R. Natarajan.

And then so through through her,

so she had the dance performance and

so that that was a very memorial memorable kind of a event.

And then of course, our first convocation was on July 11th, 1964

and President Radhakrishnan was our guest speaker.

And then of course, the the thing was held

in the Open Air Theater and so I think that was the thing.

And then also the other thing is

I did my M.Tech also over here in 64 to 66.

And so I was here on campus almost for about 7 years

that’s the on the the actual actual campus was 5

because considering the 2 years we were at Saidapet Hostel.

So, the way that I feel is because of the the love of learning

and then the critical thinking skills that our professors

have inculcated in us that stood us in a very strong fashion,

when we are in a professional career anywhere in the world.

So, soon after my my graduation from in from IIT Madras,

I started working at Bharat Electronics in the Special Projects Team

and then I was there for about 5 and half years

and then I went to US to do my Masters.

And then after the Masters and the MBA

and all of that I started working at NASA

Johnson Space Center in the Space Shuttle Program

and then the Space Station Program Constellation

and then the Mission Control Center.

And then I retired in 2012 from the service.

And so I lived I still live in Houston and then

it is really a great honor for us that

we had the honored Director and the other people

have done last night at the at the event

in the Science Activities Building.

One thing that I wanted to make a little appeal

for all the people is number 1 is right now

there are about 48000 of us who graduated from IIT Madras.

First batch they we were 92 B.Tech and then 15 M.Tech.

So, first graduating class on July 11th 1964 was 107 people.

Now we are total of about 48000, from the figures that

I heard from our the Dean of International Alumni and

International and Alumni Relations Mahesh Panchagnula

approximately about 10 percent about 5000 people

have given and I wanted to give give back

to the IIT Madras in some fashion.

Some people have given enormously like Kris and Deshpande

and others, but whereas, others I think

quite a few of the people have not really

contributed to the IIT Madras.

I would really urge all of you to just to consider

a fact of life how IIT Madras contributions

stack up against the world class institutions like

MIT, Stanford not more than other.

Our numbers are around 10 percent less than 10 percent.

The numbers for MIT it is about I now sure MIT

was about 150 years plus they cut the the alumni of MIT,

30 percent of the people give back to MIT.

Dartmouth, the numbers when I checked last

was about 36 percent.

So, right now if you really compare

if you want to be the world class institution

competing against the Stanwood, Stanfords,

MITs and Hogwarts, we really need to increase our

contributions to give back to the institution for the various purpose.

And I think they have multiple purposes that

the office has created in in order to give back to the institution.

So, please contribute whatever you could, 1 dollar or 1 rupee.

Sure you may have various reasons

why you cannot do it because of the

family considerations and other consideration.

But every one of us can give a 1 dollar or 1 rupee,

you are what can do do remember you are

what you are in your life thanks to the

education you got from IIT Madras.

Think about it, contemplate on it.

Please contribute in whatever way you could

over a period of time or whatever you could do or one time or

work with the so the International Alumni Relations

and then as well as with MAA and then

so give something back to the to the institution because

it is for us the 48,000 of us to improve

the world standing of IIT Madras.

Along those lines I wanted to make an appeal

for the Founding Professors Endowment Chairs.

Professor Sampath, he was our first Director,

Deputy Director and then later on he was also

our first our Professor of Electronics and then

because he made a profound impact on me

and so basically the thought came to us sometime in 2011.

And finally, in 2016 we were able to establish

Professor Sampath’s Endowment Chair in December of 2016.

Based upon the success of it, even though

we had some little difficulty to raise the money

and all of that, we made it happen.

What I wanted to emphasize in this appeal is

we wanted to establish the endowment chairs

for all of the founding professors over there from the

beginning of times from 59 through approximately

64 or 65ish kind of a time frame.

It is for us these 64 to 69 graduates

approximately 1200 of us to contribute towards these

48 professors, 36 Indians and 12 Germans.

And we, I got a thing on the website and then

I will be sending out a note out shortly that the

thing was announced yesterday for the Professor Sengupto’s

Chair and then Professor Natarajan’s endowment lecture series

was also announced yesterday.

So, what I would urge you is to the extent that

you could these 1200 of of us the alumni both from

B.Tech, M.Tech and then 3 year, 3 by 3 or a 5 by 5

or a M.Sc or M.Tech or Ph.D,

please do contribute whatever we could to get these

48 professors money raised.

And I am going to be asking the apart

from the alumni, I will be I will be seeking

the help from the our professors family

and their their children non-profit organizations

as well as the corporations plus some of the philanthropists

that are there across like Azim Premji

or with TATAs and all of that.

And yesterday at the meeting I was able to meet

with our Director the previous Director Natarajan,

yeah Natarajan as well as the Kris Gopalakrishnan

and other people and I said ok, hey,

I will come and meet you. So, I am meeting some of them

on 16th to help us out to raise the money.

Total money is what I need is about 500 dollars.

I mean 5 5 million dollars not 500 sorry 5 million dollar

and I think just to get a little kick out of it

you know the people in our generation knew

about the Chalti Ka Naam Gaadi that

was released in about 57, 58 kind of a time frame

and then I think Kishore Kumar and Madhubala

were the the hero and heroines at that time

and so, Kishore Kumar song was

Paanch Rupaiya Baara Aana and all of that.

So, what I need is about 5 million dollars folks.

Let us try to contribute in whatever way

we could to fund all of the 48 Endowment Chairs.

Yesterday I was also talking with the

German Consulate General for the Madras

and then she said she would like to help.

So, what I would really urge you

the purpose of this message is

give back to the to the institutions in whatever

way you could; 1 rupee, 1 dollar.

Please honor your commitment to the institute

Indian Institute of Technology, Madras [FL] Siddhirbhavati Karmaja.

Thank you.

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Prof. Ashok Jhunjhunwala in conversation with Prof. Devendra Jalihal Episode 1 Part 3 of 3.

Another aspect that I would like to bring up

is that same period; I don't know, ‘81 or ‘82 onwards.

I had…I was teaching some M. Tech. students,

our M. Tech. students were Nandita Dasgupta,

Amitava Dasgupta, both of them who are

faculty. There was one Rajesh Sanghi

who had come from Air Force.

Somehow I got actually quite friendly with them,

very friendly with bunch of them.

So it was not just undergraduate with M. Tech. students,

actually I found…and this is not about individuals,

but I did find that Master’s students,

and from very early onwards we are noting,

that if you put a Master’s students

and undergraduate students together in the same class,

and I very often used to have.

In performance, the undergraduate students

will perform far superior than Master’s students.

But if you take persistence

in trying to do something,

if I give a difficult problem which will take multiple

days and weeks, you will see our Master’s

student doing very well compared to

our undergraduate students.

This is something that I remember

starting to note from 1983 onwards.

And probably IIT still does not fully understand

that the students who come from other colleges,

but are willing to work very hard,

in long run they are as good, and

probably better than our undergraduate students.

This is something that IIT system did not understand.

I started noticing…to me it came as a surprise,

and of course, I had some very good students and all that.

I was, at the same time, starting to work on

various sub systems, particularly after

that WS Industries, I had delivered that

power-line carrier communication, and the only person

who was building systems in the

department for anyone was Professor J. P. Raina

in what we later on termed as Fiber Optics Lab.

I started taking interest in his work

and saw that what he is

trying to build is relatively simple.

His contacts were huge. He had huge defence contacts,

he has contacts in…DRDO,

he had contacts in Ministry of Electronics,

he was very aggressive person,

so he will go and sell them something.

But I also noticed that it…it

particularly since most of…were communication system

he didn't have very good idea how to build it.

But that’s where I came in;

I learnt how to build it.

So one of the first project

that Professor Raina and I did together

was a very interesting project and

tells you a lot about India.

The people from CVRD had come

some defence officers had come,

senior people from DRDO

and said the new people are working on optical fiber

and Professor Raina was just starting to

work on optical fiber.

And he had said what I would

what they would like to do was build a

fiber optic communication system for a battle tank.

Within the tank have a network. Within the tank,

little surprised.

We went and visited CVRD

and I found that the inside of the tank

in which 5 people used to sit

was no bigger than this circle,

in fact, smaller than this.

And everybody would set with their face outward

with that they will not see each other.

Had they said that the we want a fiber optic system

for them to talk to each other.

I said why they are just next to each other?

They made me go on a ride

and I saw that the tank he was making huge noise.

The noise was so much that we

couldn't talk to each other.

So, there is a only way we could do

it using headphones and cables.

So, that's what they were using.

Where did fiber optics come from?

You are talking about 1, 2 maybe 3 voice conversation,

we used to talk about something which

can multiply 64 voice signals and lot of data signals.

Here they were talking about 3, 4 of this and

maybe a few indicator somebody will turn

their light will go on very little data communication,

very little voice communication.

And I said why is it required

there is an interesting story told to us

I don't know whether story is true,

but is a very interesting story this is a story about

when Pakistan had attacked us with Patton tank.

And the Patton tank coming from US was so powerful,

the Pakistani army was marching with the tank

and our we could not just defend anything that

we will shoot at the tank will just

go for a toss it will not penetrate.

The story actually went that till somebody actually

figured out that they will put a person

who will bend down and kind of hide in bushes.

And when the tank will come he will run down

climb up the tank open the hood throw a bomb

and run for his life and he says that is how

India battled and won against Pakistan

in one of the tank.

But what I was told that things became more complicated

even when our tanks were getting deployed

that were nothing else will penetrate,

the confusion was created by a

electronic gun which will just shoot

a radio waves and somehow it will

penetrate the tank at some frequency.

And will create so much of noise

in those cables that it will be

impossible for people to talk to each other

they will put the headphone down

and they will no longer be able to talk to each other.

And if they are not talking to each other gunner is

pointing in direction different from what they should point,

the driver who is taking in one direction,

commander is asking you to do something

and there will be chaos that's a time they will

somebody will run and throw a bomb.

And somebody had told them

that optical fiber no electromagnetic wave

can penetrate which we knew and maybe it can,

if you can make that it will be something that

nobody will be able to disturb and communication

will be very sound very good. They challenged us

to make a system like this and I took

it upon myself say sure we'll build a system.

So, our dream about fiber optics and all this

talk was following up that power-line carrier

communication which was carrying

multiplexing 11 voice signals on a cable.

Here we are able to do hundreds of voice signals

on a cable and here we are actually backed down

to where bandwidth didn't matter where distance

did not matter and we are going to do this

we took upon ourselves to build a system like this.

I don't remember who had funded it, but we built it.

And as we were building it

Rajesh Sanghi who was a M. Tech student from Air Force

deputed here, he was already becoming close

to me and he started working on this project.

And we built this project and having a Air Force officer

and was a huge help because he will do all

the interface with CVRD and with the army officers

and was able to do much better than we could.

He would go get it deployed in the tank test it out,

claimed do everything

and the system was doing very well.

Of course, a tragedy took place

then one day we heard that he was doing this

and the tank was running and they were going and

they will go through difficult terrain tank would,

it was a main battle tank and

it was a just about being tested

and while doing it the tank overturned.

And Rajesh Sanghi hit got hit

his bone here was broken.

Well he was hospitalized, he was cheerful,

he didn't blame us and for him

this is a part of being in the armed forces,

Air Force you get injured this will heal

and we did realize that this will heal.

But it was also clear that with this

small defect that he has in hand

he won't be promoted very high

because there was a rule in these

armed forces and Air Force that up to a certain

rank walls only you can go if you have had

some kind of injury which stays permanent.

So, he was very bright officers did quite well

in the exam man courses and did everything

and done the project.

What will he do?

Meantime we also saw him as a great asset

to our system building effort that here is a person who

would be able to not only translate the defence ideas to us,

but be able to also carry it all the way

to the inside the defence.

And we were now getting contracts from defence you

build this system, build something for aircraft

15 53, 17 73 bus fiber optic system

and we are quite willing to take up this things,

we had by this time 30, 40 people working with us.

I remember we are making we had made

2 megabyte per second system,

8 megabyte per second system,

34 megabyte per second were

just about getting to build.

And we proposed a project I think it was a

Ministry of Electronics plus some defence agency

was also there and we said we will go and build

140 megabyte per second it was state of art

nobody else in the world was in built a

one more 40 megabyte per second.

And I remember going to the meeting in Delhi

it was at IIT Delhi making a presentation,

he says there is nothing here that we don't understand

and I had learnt how to build multiplexing and

everything quite well and the basic challenge is in

actually doing things.

So, we will fail a few times, but

we are better positioned to build

this than any other person.

If any other person can build it in the country

we will be happy we are not the,

but if nobody else can we need to.

Otherwise, forever we will be dependent

and not only one ah megabyte per second

tomorrow 565 everything will be imported

and when I said all this with my passion

they immediately sanctioned plus projects.

So, we had enough money we had large money.

Fortunately, number of our alumni also

were get particularly the ones who were very friendly to us

people like Deepak Khanchandani

who would come back to us.

He they had joined semiconductor complex

the place closed down did not do very well

he was lost and he would come back to us

and work with us. So, we had talent,

we had people we were able to take

students from engineering colleges nearby;

we were able to take students from

engineering colleges nearby.

By that time that had started proliferating

and we were able to train them and do well.

But to be able to do some of these things

we wanted Doctor Sanghi to be with us.

He says you will love to do his PhD with me,

but how does he do that?

Defence will Air Force will not release him,

but we had enough defence project.

So, I remember we had gone all the way

to the scientific Professor I think Abdul Kalam at that time

the DRDO head and myself Professor Raina

went and said we can build all these things we need him to be.

He will do his PhD also please permit him

hence I knew that if you were honest and

speaking and were ready to do something the rules

can be bend and this is what Professor Indiresan

used to always teach us.

You know there are these rules you must understand that,

if you go and try to hit against the rules

you will never be able to penetrate him

there is a huge barrier,

you have to learn to bend the rules.

Ok, it's interesting that you say it because

there is a story I have heard when uh Professor Paulraj

again coming from defence was doing his

M. Tech at IIT Delhi under Professor Indiresan

he saw that Paulraj was very bright,

he wanted him to continue for PhD

and rules didn't permit and he somehow got the rules bent.

So, that Paulraj continues for his PhD

and built the sonar is what I I mean

I don't know if the story is correct,

but this story I have heard.

Must be correct Professor Indiresan

always taught us he will always point out.

And by the time; by the time guidance

and counselling unit had happened he was

I was quite close to him and as I told you

he tried to teach a course also along with me.

And I could reach him and he was very

enthused that I am just trying to do this

he was fully encouraging us.

Let me tell you the rest of the department was

not very friendly to Professor Raina

there was a huge conflict and since

I was working with Professor Raina

they used to also watch me with huge

kind of suspicion.

But people like Professor Radhakrishna Rao,

Professor V G K Murthy

is to know that I am very sincere and

used to kind of encourage me.

So, here we are able to get Doctor Sanghi

and he became one of my early PhD students

of course, I had one or two other one person had

worked on surface acoustic devices one.

Thing about this me I had done my PhD

in surface acoustical devices this is where I could

easily do work publish I did not need anything

except computers I had my first PhD

student Elizabeth Elias who did her PhD work with me.

Actually largely it was understanding this

and then software programming,

but I was bored with that work.

And here is a much more interesting work

that I was doing whether I was doing for main

battle tank or for the aircraft or for

doing things, I got more interested

in fiber optics and system development.

If you remember it was in the process of

doing this that I made a

fiber optic multiplexing kit.

I have taught in United States

for 2 years only and I was teaching here

I knew our students were brighter,

but there was one difference their labs

they used to learn much more than our labs.

Our labs were very boring routine

there was one instrument

that was expensive and we would only take

people and somebody will operate

that instrument and they will take reading

there is no fun very little learning,

this is something that I had

noticed about labs here.

Whereas lab in United States where

there was some kind of full kit given to each

student individually.

And a problem will be given to them

and they will have to build it and is

saw they were used to do it

we used to give them a week before,

they used to prepare for it come,

we'll have a discussion in the beginning,

get them going in the middle of this

we will go around each desk, help them.

There is a huge learning for them and for us

out here the labs had no learning.

The students were bored, they used to cut corners.

I had been talking to head of the department

other senior faculty that why can't we create,

so many kits and people

sort of said well we don't have money.

So, this kind of inspired me that

we can build the kits and make it low cost.

And since I had learned enough about

multiplexing a lot of interesting things

you can teach about multiplexing,

the synchronisation, lack of synchronisation,

bit synchronisation, byte synchronisation,

clock synchronisation, failure of that,

multiplexing, channel switching time switching

all of this you could do in a fiber optic kit.

And I had got a undergraduate student

to work with me to build that kit

and we had commercialised that.

I will talk more about it initially

with universal then with my benchmark systems

I will talk more about it, till today

I am known in colleges all over the country

as a person who had designed that kit.

Even today I get 40 year 35 years

down the line I we every year

get some royalties on that kit.

That kit has taught simple multiplexing and

communication to very large

number of people all over the country.

We'll come back to that later on,

but what I was pointing out that we were

building systems initially for defence and

for Minister of Electronics and building

complex system and used to employ a

large number of people.

At the same time the industry was showing some interest.

So, while I used to work on this defence project

and other projects with Professor Raina

some industries were coming to me personally

and I was in laser communication lab

building some of the projects and employing them.

There is a interesting thing that I want to point out

it's about India and about Tamil Nadu.

In my first year after I came here

very often I will find that somebody

totally unknown to me comes to me

with his son or a daughter

15, 16 year old son and daughter

they will somehow get to meet me.

And basically talk to me only one thing

meet my son meet, see my daughter,

how bright they are, how well they are doing in school

they want to study engineering,

get them admission in IIT,

help them get the admission.

By knew now I knew enough about JE of course

I myself was had done JE I knew that IIT

there was not no possibility and I used to

sort of say they have to write this exam they said

they will not get through.

Then I said well then you have to go to other colleges

and they will say they are not there are no

colleges and they are we cannot get in.

At that time '82 or '83 I '82 I remember

doing some study and I found that there were hardly about

100 engineering colleges around the country

having only 20,000 students.

That time we are closing to 800 million population

20,000 students, people were hungry

to learn there are no engineering colleges.

And this is a time '84 or '85, '84

probably or '85 MGR and Jayalalitha came up

with a policy of private engineering colleges,

set up this private engineering colleges.

IIT was huge was fully opposed to it

everybody used to sort of say there will be poor teacher,

poor quality, it is a money making,

they will take large amount of money.

And it was truth also many of these

colleges were very poor quality,

money making proposition for some politicians.

But there are also colleges which were

attempting to teach them.

Initially I was opposing that just like

any other IIT, but soon realized that

when we have denied the children opportunity

to learn engineering and this is providing them

is it fair on our part to oppose them.

Remember this is the first the time

here the IIT ecosystem says that

we should oppose them quality; quality; quality,

superiority first time started questioning all of these things.

Partly my PPSD background probably helped

and I had to often stand against our own colleagues

and sort of say no you should allow them.

And you know incidentally what helped

that children of many of the faculty.

yeah who are not getting into IIT and

were trying to send it to this

started siding with me,

what I am pointing out that I this is the; this is the first time

and I was very young at that time,

I stood against IIT opinion.

Long run I think it was a very very important thing,

I started talking about it.

Of course, process was going on independent of me,

but this large number of engineering colleges were coming up

and these youngsters were getting trained.

And we suddenly found that we will I will be able to

recruit them as a project staff for our M. Tech or

things like that and they were doing very well,

they of course, I realized by now that

there were some colleges where they will getting some minimum

training not enough.

But the youngsters were

very bright after all the students who got into IIT

and didn't get into IIT the marked difference was hardly anything

by now I had figured out the whole JE

there was hardly anything they were

very bright they didn't get the opportunity.

And you provided them opportunity in your lab

initially in fiber Optics Communication Lab

laser on later on Laser Communication Lab

and they will flower up.

And I already had seen

our M. Tech students who came from tier 2. Colleges

Colleges were doing well.

And suddenly I found that

well all you need to do is give them opportunity

push them train them hard you have to do a little more

personal handholding create

confidence that they are doing big things.

And they will come become very good technologist.

This was a very important lesson that I

learned as early as '86, '87, '88

which I actually continued.

And whether I did

whatever I have done till from that time till today

that that there is a law in India

the biggest strength it is human resources.

Yes IIT is one thing, but it doesn't matter

that is very large I was not now bothered that

IIT students will go abroad let them.

There are enough others; there are enough others

and all that we need to do is train them

push them hard and they will deliver

this is something that we saw

do happening again and again.

I will tell you couple of other things that happened

which actually started changing my whole

mind frame which you will see.

Two incidents I remember was happening in India

other than the engineering college,

you know at that time the only washing powder that

we had in India was Surf or known.

I used to also buy that it was expensive.

So, I used to buy and use it occasionally

rest of the time used to use the soap

and that time suddenly we heard of Nirma,

huge advertisement in radio

and think that you will hear about Nirma

it is a very poor quality washing powder,

it will burn your hands.

Very similar to the way we IIT will talk about it's

private engineering college is a very

similar putting down this,

but large number it was very inexpensive one fourth

the price of

and I started was occasionally using

it little care and it cleaned.

It had a little more bleaching so

it hurt the hand a bit you have to care be careful,

it cleaned the clothes very well of course it

hurt the clothes also in long run, but

how did it matter.

I certainly found that Nirma crossed the total sales

on Surf and became the dominant

and Surf was going on opposing with all

intellectuals like us supporting them this is a

quality product and that is poor quality.

And suddenly we found after some time

when the that will nearly lost the market from

dominant situation that they came with a cheaper

powder very similar to Nirma powder.

And then we realized that what

India is I learnt about India that India

is a large market for affordable product.

Surf was only to service 4, 5

percent of our population,

high cost similar to maybe the cost abroad

only a few percentage of people will be able to afford it.

But if you are able to get the product at the right

price point the market becomes very large and new

industries can come up.

It gave a huge

huge impetus to me that new industries can be

created only if you can make

product which are affordable.

Whole scenario thinking started changing

a second very similar incident took place

with telecom by that time

Rajiv Gandhi was in power hm and he brought

this person Sam Pitroda from somewhere.

And I remember getting invited in one meeting

because I was doing enough with industry and all that.

And that is a place where he was talking about

why number of telephones are limited and you

cannot uh give enough phones and

you know making a long distance call.

I remember in IIT Kanpur

I in my 5 years I made 2 calls to home.

The reason number one I had to wait between 4 to 6 hours

to after booking a call to get a call,

I had to wait outside the telephone exchange

you will book and you will wait outside

and you will get a call suddenly the trunk call is now available

and you can make a call.

The cost of that call was equivalent to

30 percent of my monthly mess bill

one call, you could neither afford

and you had a long waiting period.

So, in one of the conversation that took place in Delhi

with Sam Pitroda people pointed out yes

number of trunk lines are limited and by the way

where we are building power-line carrier communication

or fiber optic multiplexing primarily to increase the

number of trunk lines between cities

that was the objective by that time

I had understood.

If we can build that enough we can,

but it was expensive and so the calls will be expensive.

Till somebody pointed out

then in the night time these were hardly ever used,

it was empty and the telephones were not available

and that time in one of the meeting

basically the idea came that why can't

we create this FL telephone we will put a

telephone at a FL shop and people will

go and make a call pay for it.

And maybe in the night time we will make STD

calls at evening time half rate

night time quarter rates

everybody in department was opposed loss of revenue

this that same thing that you hear,

Sam Pitroda took the decision I will do that.

And I remember he is asking me that,

but you know my STD PCO machine is expensive.

Can you build a low cost metering

which will tell how much is the bill,

so that the person can pay?

And I think we took up and I was I remember

there was one one Sanjay Gupta undergraduate student

with him actually I built that

and I gave it to him in the meantime

multiple things were built and this STD PCO started

what is very interesting this STD

PCO started and very soon it was there

in every street corner we had initially planned

10,000 of them it became 100,000

and more many more.

This STD PCO really moved me because

what I found I myself could go there and make calls,

but people used to stand in queues

to make call in the evenings

they used to wait for 8 PM.

And then 11 PM. Yeah

And people will make calls and

people are very happy and it was became affordable.

So, I suddenly saw affordability has huge power

and this STD PCO person was actually

making enough money initially the government had talked about

subsidy very soon it was forgotten this FL,

it it was no longer a FL shop

it became a STD PCO itself

and the person started selling multiple other things. Yeah

the business grew these were entrepreneurs who were growing

and we had suddenly created

I think a million PCOs over that 2, 3 years.

We went to remote areas and created that,

that area will get developed there are enough storeys

that I remember going through

where in a remote area this place will do.

Because there is a now STD PCO

there the women will be more easy ready to

come and first the all the

car auto repair shops will come around,

people will make it a taxi stand, bus stand will come

some small factories will set up.

Women will be more ready to come and work there

because that phone provided them safety

and that whole area will develop.

I suddenly realize that entrepreneurship

both with Nirma and this STD PCO is

what India needs affordable technology

is what India needs entrepreneurship

and affordable technology will make India grow

more rapidly than anything else,

by this time my dream of or thinking that politics

will change things had gone.

Now, I have totally I mean particularly after that

Sikh riots that took place completely shook me.

And then the Bhopal gas FL I knew

politics is not the right thing.

And entrepreneurship and affordable

technology developed in India.

Training the human strength resources our biggest strength

creating large human resources engineering manpower,

training them IIT cannot remain in its own

elite structure, it has to reach out to them,

work with them masters,

but project staff

project staff became very important.

Train them, take up projects, do things, work with industry,

transform industry this basically

was my early learning from 1981 till '86, '87.

Entrepreneurship will become the best way

for countries development.

Affordable technology is the only way

that India will developed its market.

And India has large market

if the products are affordable,

it can change the game

and we have to believe on our human resources.

My thinking considerably changed

and it is at this stage that I started

looking at larger issues.

And very fortunately

after a lot of battle within the department,

I said we have to allow people to come in

7 years, 8 years before me

nobody had come, 7 years after I came nobody.

Joined or 6 years till we pulled in and I helped

in getting Bhaskar Ramamurthi, Anthony Reddy asked me.

to get it and I somehow pushed it.

Professor Indiresan tried his best to change IIT

this place was too conservative would not allow him to change.

That conservative trend continues even today

and is a huge difference between IIT Kanpur

and IIT madras in that.

Even today if we are not doing better than

what we should it is because of that conservatism.

And one thing that I learnt that you have to fight against

conservating you have to take risk.

And whether we did wireless in local loop or where we did

this we started incubating companies Banyan,

Midas whether we created research park

or incubation cell or our work electric vehicles

or solar DC was always defying the

tradition I am doing something new.

Another thing I would like to end today

by stating that if you see from surface acoustic wave

I had got into digital circuits and systems,

microprocessor based systems,

fiber optic systems and next was wireless.

If you say I had never stayed in one area.

In fact, my 8 PhD students have worked in 8

totally different areas everything you start from

scratch and do it.

This is not what IIT does,

IIT to some extent doesn't even respect that.

this whole thing that you have to publish,

yes you have to be in a one area,

you have to build the ecosystem their whole

what is this called h index etcetera comes from all that

here you are jumping from one thing to another.

I had made my path very clear

that I am not going to follow the tradition

and I will fight against all conservative thing

and in spite of everything I will do,

IIT continues to be conservative

and still becomes a bottleneck on many things.

I have questions on that, I think we we will take it up

about how you know this this this 2 models

of university based education or

research you know we can reconcile, yes.

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< Back

Prof. S.N. Majhi in conversation with Prof. S. Sundar

Good morning.

Good morning Sundar.

I am so happy that. Yeah, yeah.

Very happy to have you here again.

I am very happy I am happy. At IIT Madras for this conversation.

Of course, I was your student and I did my Ph.D. here.

Our student. Yeah.

So, in fact I used to really enjoy your lectures,

your style of teaching,

also your way of helping the students at various stages.

And, in fact that period was really one of the best

student period which I have I ever seen in my student life

at IIT Madras, and in particular that Department of Mathematics.

And even further with Professor S.N. Majhi is always a

special thing not only to me

it is also for all the students who were there at that time.

So, we are very happy to have you here today for this conversation.

And thanks for coming.

In fact, I must thank Professor Achuthan, your guide.

Oh ok.

Wonderful person and he brought you in contact with us.

Yeah. And I was so fortunate to have research scholars like you

who used to be very helpful to every aspect of our department's life activities.

it’s it’s good that we are recalling Professor P. Achuthan, it is nice sir.

Please tell me about your the first day at IIT Madras,

which many of us knew about through our Heritage Centre.

But listening from a person

where that is at the beginning of IIT Madras

it would be very fantastic.

So, please tell me about your career or your

even from the first day in a very short form from IIT Madras until you are,

you are professor at IIT Madras until your super envision.

In a nutshell, I will give you something before my joining here.

Yes sir, please sir.

I was the student of M.Sc. in Banaras Hindu University.

I did not know at that time there is a Ph.D. beyond M.Sc. also.

ok. After my passing out from Banaras Hindu University

with a good division and rank also.

Which was what year sir? Banaras. M.Sc.

Hindu University that was 1964 actually. Ok, sir.

I joined 62 and came out.

64, in 64. 64, I was offered a job in Khallikote College.

Ok. Brahmapur, Orissa.

I joined that because it was my college also

when I was studying my intermediate.

Ok. Then, I realised if there is a higher degree available

and I have to do that. ok.

So, I wanted to go to to BHU again for my research in real analysis.

Ok. In between,

one of my good friend he wrote to me, why do not you come to IIT Madras?

Who asked that?

Gopala Krishnan. Ok.

One Professor Gopala Krishnan, who was my classmate at Banaras. Ok.

He joined here as a research scholar.

So, he wrote to me why don't you come over here?

So, he is he was also belong the student of mathematics?

Right, right, my classmate. Ok, ok, ok.

In fact, he was also with Khallikote College for few months

then he left, joined here.

That is where I got the idea I have to do my Ph.D. So,

through your classmate you came to know that

there is one Indian Institute of Technology. Technology

At Madras.

Then, I applied, I came here for interview.

Ok. First day, I stayed in Gopala Krishnan’s room in Kaveri hostel.

Oh, great. That was Kaveri hostel day.

It was a beautiful gathering, lot of cultural programme

and the lecture of our director at that time.

What was the month? Ramachandran.

Month roughly

July or? September I think September.

1964 65.

65, ok, ok sorry.

Then somehow I got impressed I wanted to join,

but at the same time I used to like my the BHU guide

with whom I wanted to do also.

So, I went to BHU, I got a scholarship also from UGC.

Ok. So, I went to BHU, thought of

working with my favourite faculty up there.

But when he heard I got a scholarship at IIT Madras,

immediately told that I won't take you now.

Oh, You go to IIT Madras.

You got such a good offer and you please go over there.

I was with heavy heart, I came

and. So, when you are student even that time

one of the very prominent,

one of the most sought after institute is IIT Madras.

Yes. Till till today IIT Madras is

is maintaining that reputation.

It is nice to know that.

And I came, joined my guide after some time,

it was personally come fortunately because Great, great.

He was also a guide of my friend Gopala Krishnan. Ok, ok, ok.

So, we both from BHU.

So, Professor S. D. Nigam. Nigam.

So, who is one of pioneer in fluid dynamics.

Fluid he asked me one day,

do you know what is fluid mechanics? Oh, ok

I told I know the meaning of fluid,

I know the meaning of mechanics

but inside of fluid mechanics

I am not much informed. Ok, ok.

You join here in fluid mechanics that is how I joined

and did my research under his guidance, very efficient guide.

I think you know he is passed, no more. Oh, yeah.

2014 he expired.

He is a stalwart

and he was having lot of reputation internationally

and we are very fortunate he guided us.

Sir, if I remember correctly when I came to know about IIT Madras

mathematics department,

they always talk about two main personalities,

one is Professor S. D. Nigam and another is Professor is S. K. Srinivasan.

Right, you are right. So, you are the student of

Professor S. D. Nigam which is really and

And Professor Srinivasan wonderful soul,

very sympathetic kind.

Both Professor Srinivasan and Professor S. D. Nigam

are very good friends, good understanding.

I think you know that

when the institute started one Professor Hoon.

From. He guided the department’s activities as

head of the Department.

Then, Professor S. K. Srinivasan joined as assistant professor,

he was head of the department. Ok.

Heading the department.

Then of course, he become professor and

he happens to be a student of Alladi Ramakrishnan,

Professor Alladi Ramakrishnan. Ramakrishnan.

The math science fame.

Institute of Mathematical Sciences. Yes,

math science started in 1962,

but Professor Srinivasan was a student in the University of Madras.

Ok. From there he got his degree.

And Professor Srinivasan whose student was Professor Achuthan.

Yes. And theoretical physics

he was also a stochastic process stalwart, operational research.

He wrote quite number of good books Professor Srinivasan.

Soft spoken person.

He guided the department very nicely

and in cooperation with Professor Nigam.

Yeah. Though Professor Nigam has taken the headship,

I think it was 62

Professor Nigam came from Kharagpur IIT.

Ok to IIT Madras, ok Yes.

So, he joined here and headed the department.

How was your Ph.D. student?

As a student career you mean? Yeah.

Actually our day used to start at 7:30

and used to end at 12:30 night.

Ok. You know used to be there along with us Professor Nigam

also used to be with us,

not he alone, his students his scholars,

even some of the engineering Ph.D. scholars used to come.

Ok. To take his guidance, his suggestions,

clarification of some doubts etc.

He is a wonderful guide and teacher.

So, that time you mean to say your

day begins at 7:30 in the morning.

So, you finish your breakfast at Kaveri hostel then.

In between, we used to go and come. Ok.

And Professor Nigam also used to go and come.

I remember when he bought his first ambassador. Ok.

He was quite happy that the period of going coming will be sorted.

Ok. Earlier used to go by cycle and sometimes by walk.

Ok. But after his ambassador arrived,

he was quite happy that he is coming quite early and

and also can go comfortably.

So, the department right now in HSB in first floor.

So, it is in the same location? Same location.

Or. Same location.

And our group of research scholars under him

Sir Professor S. D. S. D. Nigam Used to find.

fluid dynamics team.

Fluid mechanics group. Yeah.

We find a kind of family atmosphere. Oh, great.

We helping each other,

discussing each other’s problem

in presence of Professor Nigam.

I remember one thing,

I have to do some calculations for my thesis

and you know once with other is on machine Brunswick. Yes.

Calculating machine was there are two types of things,

and I used to use that.

It took me almost 6 months to produce my numerical results. Oh.

But in between, I think

Guindy Engineering College,

they got a computer and they gave some slot for IIT Madras.

Ok. So, our IIT Madras students used to go there,

faculty as well as students, but there is a queue heavy queue.

So, many people go there in that slot.

So, we mathematics department people generally.

Even I remember during my time as a Ph.D.,

we used to go to as a Ph.D. scholar

we used to go to computer centre and get the.

Oh yeah. Our slot for for the numerical computation,

we need to get our slot.

We go in the morning and.

Yeah. Try to book our slot.

In fact, in between German government offered

the advanced computer at that time to our.

Alright. IIT and they offered our IIT

requested our department to look after that.

Ok. Under their care.

At that time Professor Nigam was hesitant

because he is not very sure how he can

organize, manage, he excused himself. Ok.

At that time Professor Sampath was

there in the electrical engineering department. Ok.

I think he was the head.

He readily agreed that he will look after that. Ok.

So, that is how the computer aspects,

the centre started under the electrical

engineer department. Electrical department. Oh, nice nice to know sir.

Then it separated. Sir, how many years you

took to complete your Ph.D.?

To be very frank, it is a very

a great privilege to be a student of Professor Nigam.

Yes sir.

He brings beautiful ideas.

He inspires the students to bring the suggestions from themselves,

though he knows what suggestions come out

because he has already built within us, the ideas and suggestions.

Ok, nice. After we bring the suggestions

and the problem is defined, he used to appreciate us.

Nice sir.

And every day, there are 5 to 6 research scholars who are there,

he will call us each one of us he will give half an hour almost.

Oh, everyday. Everyday.

Oh, good sir.

Sometimes suppose we are busy

and he does not want to disturb us,

he can guess, he will come and stand behind us.

Ok. He won’t talk and stand behind us

and we know that he has come to know what we are doing.

We explain him, then he goes.

Like that I brought my problems within a span of 18 months.

Oh. All my thesis problems are defined.

Very nice. Another say 5 to 6 months the solutions are all ready.

Good sir. Another 4 to 5 months I wrote my thesis.

So, you finished the everything your entire thesis work in 3 years time.

Because 3 year oh. In fact less than 3 years.

But I used to take our analysis to give lectures elsewhere.

Ok. Our problems, he will take and give lectures also in our presence.

Oh, very good.

Somebody is asking a question, he will point out the finger to us.

So, that shows the. Though he can answer.

That shows. But he wanted us.

That is how he used to make us understand the whole

situation very clearly and used to also discuss among ourselves.

In his presence we used to discuss ourselves also,

the problem of our problem with others

that is how the thesis get shaped.

And writing also, the longest part of it,

the wordings, everything he will inspire and bring out of us.

So, that is the basically the the pillars. Inspiration. And

where the department has groomed to this level.

So, I wanted to inform you that because

share you this information last 2 years,

in fact last 3 years our department

is one of the top 200

QS world ranking and subject-wise mathematics.

Yes, I have

read that news also

on IIT. Even IIT 17 this is top top 200,

200 rank and this one among the

the mathematics department in India,

we are ranked number 1 along with IIT Bombay and

other institutes as per the QS, you know, world ranking.

So, it is the the pillar set by Professor Nigam,

Professor S. K. Srinivasan and further pillar set by

Professor Majhi and others

who brought the department to this level.

So, just I wanted to share this information you are keeping. Thank you.

Still this same tradition.

So, and after your Ph.D. you immediately joined here as a faculty

as a lecturer or you went somewhere and come and came back?

In fact, I joined as a research scholar 65, 1965.

Got my Ph.D. in 69 ok

convocation.

But my. Since you said it is a convocation, today

IIT Madras it is very clear July

3rd Friday is the convocation day.

What was the convocation day during that time in 1960?

Frankly, I do not remember this. Ok.

But we use to have our convocation in the Open Air Theatre. Ok.

Open Air Theatre. I I was talking something about.

Yeah that there is you said. Joining. Joining.

68 I joined as a technical assistant, senior technical assistant.

I will tell you the reason though there was an offer for

associate lecturership, Professor Nigam called me, he told me

associate lectureship is higher level posts

than STA that is good that we can offer you, but it is a temporary post.

It is not a kind of a permanent.

Ok. I will suggest you take senior technical assistant position.

Ok. And it would be a permanent position.

So, want you here with us. Ok.

Because if you join as associate lecturer you may like to go somewhere else.

It cannot be a permanent you see.

That is how joined in technical. Ok.

But this is not much of difference in our status in the department.

They used to honour, all of us used to honour each other.

Position is immaterial.

So, when you joined as STA,

the 1968, how many faculty were there in the department?

I think there was around 15 to 17 faculty were there.

Oh, ok. And technical assistant, I think 3 of us.

Even Professor Achuthan joined also a technical assistant. ok, ok

He is one of the very very intelligent and very

good person with heart, in his heart,

help helping nature, and intelligent knowledgeable.

Then as an STA we used also teach M.Sc. classes, there is no bar. Ok.

We are basically faculty as such, though we are called technical assistance.

Ok, ok. Of course, then you are given the promotion to lectureship.

When did you? After 3 years.

Oh, after 3 years you got the.

Some maybe 72 around.

So, Professor Majhi, when I during my period as a

as a student from outside when I before entering to IIT Madras,

whenever we say about the fluid dynamics,

fluid mechanics, continuum mechanics area and

in particular that is in general across the world

your your name is very well-known.

And also in particular in Indian,

across India various institutes those who are working in this

same area they know about you are a well-known

a researcher and well-known teacher.

And how did you from the research point of view,

how did you, till you are student of

Professor S. D. Nigam that is one part.

But after that when you joined as a faculty

and along with Professor S. D. Nigam,

but you have created your own

domain of research and you have excelled.

So, please share share your views on how did you?

Yeah, fluid mechanics. For this.

The basic thing I did my research.

I had interaction with the engineering departments also.

There was one Matthews who was working in applied mechanics,

he used to come and sit with me for his research work.

Ok. And also those he was with the German guide,

but he used to come and sit with us, and

some of our work jointly published which found in books also.

That is how I got an inspiration to go towards engineering side.

Application of. Ok.

Fluid mechanics in engineering side. Ok, ok, ok.

Later you know the space science developed. Yes.

And people have gone to the space.

Then the microgravity aspects

how it affects our system that attracted my attention.

We all are grown under one gravity,

on the earth from childhood to the adulthood,

but when we go up there, there is no gravity or microgravity

let us so how the things will effect that area attracted me.

I did some work in that area along with two of my students.

Oh. In fact, during our international conference

I am not able to remember his name, he visited

though it is there in my tongue tip

he visited and I had a discussion with him.

Ok. Then, he saw something new in my discussion.

Ok. Then, he asked did you,

can you experimentally prove it he asked. The Bolus Flow.

Ok. It is called Bolus Flow. The flow of blood

goes in our arteries or veins even capillaries with certain gaps in between.

Ok. So, one Megha Singh was there in applied mechanics. Oh, Professor

Megha Singh. Professor Megha Singh.

Yeah. We both went to

Japan to attend an international conference.

During our visit we discussed at certain aspects

he told I have facilities in my lab in IIT Madras of course.

Then he did some experiment and our theoretical things are all there.

Oh. Experimentally, it is proved.

Oh. And one of his students submitted the thesis also

in that experiment things. Oh, that time itself you nicely

put your theory and compared with the

experiment and. Experiments

It was really.

So, this is how I diverted towards the microgravity.

Ok. Analysis, and so I did in mathematical modelling also certain aspects.

Like that my area become fluid mechanics,

micro gravity, mathematical modelling. Very good sir. Nice

Sir I want to ask you one thing just

during your time here as a faculty,

you have taken over some some important

positions, administrative positions.

For example, you are a secretary of Film Club.

Film Society it is called. And till today

Film Club film.

Film Society. Film Society. Is also a treasurer.

Yeah. Today if you look at the OAT that Saturday

8 o’clock come what may exactly 8 o’clock, there will be a movie.

Today, it has gone to a much digital and an advanced

level OAT is one of the best place to view the movies.

So, how was those days when you started your

this Film Society activities?

In fact, from my childhood I used to like group work,

joining with other people and participating in activities,

society activities in high schools even elementary schools such as.

So, here also that facility was very much there in IIT Madras.

I was a founder member of Faculty Club,

Faculty Association. Oh, Faculty Association.

Where do you also.

I was also president, right. Led that as the chairman of that.

And I was associate of the Staff Club.

Oh, ok or. Then, there was one of our

important person in humanities it is Rama Rao,

suddenly he expired he was associate lecturer

with 2 kids and wife having no sufficient to support

associate lecturer which was not a permanent position. Permanent position.

So, to get pension etc. not there.

So, we wanted to support the family by sharing from among ourselves.

Good sir. So, Professor Nigam

was the chairman of that committee. Ok.

I was the secretary of that committee.

That is how I came in contact with humanities department closely.

Professor Nagendra was at humanities, later he joined our mathematics.

The statistician. I could find a good friend with with him.

One Professor Krishna Rao who is with us no more,

he was also very friendly with us.

In fact, I remember when I was in Kaveri hostel as a research scholar;

he used to come to the Kaveri hostel to play

what is that called table not, yeah.

Table tennis. Table tennis,

he was very interesting. I also developed a good relation.

This Film Society, those Film Club was here at that time,

but Film Society was something different aspect.

Film society is that group of people who are interested in old movies.

Ok. Those movies were what is that called,

there is a some group that is called

I do not remember the name right now.

So, these old films, awarded films,

so those films they wanted to see

in our IIT students. So, you used OAT or

the CLT. Private, private means in rooms.

Rooms, ok, ok. Small rooms. CLT.

Let us say at that time CLT was. CLT was there. Ok.

We used to use it. Ok.

Then Krishna Rao and then suggested

how about having a society of that type

because generally people won’t be interested

to see some the classical movies and old movies,

awarded movies, they wanted this dancing phenomena and Ok.

These love, but these things has some deep rooted philosophy etc.

So, he agreed.

That is how we framed a group in IIT Madras,

got approval of the administration and a society was formed.

Krishna Rao was the chairman and I was the secretary

and one Kesavan happens to be the treasurer.

During that time also we thought of

having one parent teachers forum of Central School.

Our Kendriya

Kendriya Vidyalaya. Oh.

And I was the treasurer of that. Oh.

And that also went on very well.

We saved quite a good amount, then we installed a prize.

Prize means the person alternatively from Central School and Vana Vani,

whose gets the position first position in IIT

selection among the day students he gets that prize.

Still it is continuing. Oh, very nice, very very good.

Another thing I will tell you,

Professor Ananth was professor in charge of Gymkhana, student affairs.

Ok. He called one day, told Professor Majhi

why don't you join with us as a treasurer? So.

And I joined there also.

During my time I found out that are 4 to 5 different

accounts are being maintained, individually people are operating.

I brought to the knowledge of Ananth later also it was Professor Natarajan

who came to that position, I brought to their notice.

There also surprised, how is it happening,

students operating one, some faculty advisor operating one.

No, it should not be.

So, we brought all those amounts in one account,

operated to be operated by 2 people.

Oh, ok. So, today whatever procedure we see

you are the. So, that is going on

very well. You are you are that person

who introduced all those.

And in our department. Changes.

Ramanujan Day celebrations.

Yeah, yeah, yeah

it is also there. That also came.

Even even today December 22nd,

whatever be the case

22nd is the day of we celebrate Ramanujan Day which

where when; when did you start the

the celebrating this? In fact, I must thank you also.

oh, You remember our international conference?

It was when I was a student, it was 1988.

That is first one. Yeah.

And the next one.

It was that is international conference on Industrial Max or.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah that was in 2001,

but in. It is, but in 1987.

Before to that, yes as a student.

Yeah, as a student, ok in 1987

there was a that. Conference.

Big. Yeah, I remember.

International conference on mathematics which was held here

which I remember. So, we during that conference all of you helped us.

so much Yes, yes. And not only. In fact. IIT Madras, also

Institute of Mathematical Sciences and University of Madras combined

together and we had it the entire event took place here.

I even remember sir. Even some

private. As a student, I remember, yeah.

Private engineering colleges. Colleges, yeah.

And all of you conducted. In fact we are all there,

but all the working aspects are done by you. Yeah,

sir we got lot of experience. And there was one

another student with you who has gone to Guindy Engineering College.

Yeah, now he is a Professor M. Venkatesan.

Venkatesan. Yes

And Vetrivel. Yeah, Professor Vetrivel, yes.

And all these people who are

so dynamic that gave us a confidence we raised a lot of funds,

then International Group were there and they are

so appreciative etc. etc.

During that time I think we put a

foundation also about mathematical modelling. Yes.

You went to Germany.

Yeah, I went to.

German. I got the opportunity

because of the conference. Yeah.

I got a some kind of contact

then I went to Germany.

From the conference

you got the contact. Yes, yes, yes.

went and that till today that contact is very strong going on.

Yes sir, yes sir, yes sir, yes sir. During that time we saved lot of funds.

I remember we saved around 40,000 rupees.

Oh, at that time, oh. At that time.

That time sir.

You are really the finance minister of Department of Mathematics.

So, that amount there was lot of discussion we had,

what to be done, we put it in a fixed deposit

and decided to conduct every year

Ramanujan Day celebration. Ok. Yes sir.

In that amount. Till today.

It is. We take that the interest money.

Right. Now, we are getting around say near about

50 to 60,000 which is.

Right. Good enough for us to

organize this 20 century that is the seed which you

you put and that is what which is helping. I am proud of you

actually because you are the flag bearer afterwards. Oh, thank you sir.

Indeed. But Another aspect I remember,

I was given the responsibility of professor in charge of

SCST Oh, that is very nice.

Professor Kuriakose, chemistry department, he was the

student associated professor in charge of student activities.

Ok. He called one day, asked me, in fact

Professor Achuthan was in charge before me.

Ok. Maybe he might have asked Professor Achuthan after you who should be,

Professor Achuthan might have told Professor Majhi is there.

So, he called me, asked me can you join as a adviser to SCST group?

Generally, that confidence as such was not much,

but it was Professor Kuriakose of all the people

and he also qualified his request, don’t worry I am with you.

Oh. So, I did.

So, it’s a it’s a great service you you did.

During that time I will tell you one incident.

One of the Vice Chancellors daughter was our student.

The Vice Chancellor happens to be only a SCST person.

Ok. One of the Vice Chancellors.

One day I asked the daughter because she was getting all facilities

free, hostel free, food, books, etc.,

I asked her would you really need this?

She was bit confused.

I told if you do not need it, this can go to somebody else.

Oh, nice. There will be very much

suffering people and the institute may offer this to that.

She told I will ask my father. Ok.

Next day she came told my father says since it is a privilege,

let us enjoy it. Ok. So, that is one incident I will tell you. Nice

sir. And during that time also, there is some

grants used to come to our section

and we used to manage our things with that,

some get togethers and all those things.

We saved some funds. Oh.

Professor Kuriakose and myself from that we saved some.

It was it was really a great thing And that amount was

put again in a fixed deposit to be given as a

scholarship or some financial aid to required student of SCST.

Oh, nice. I understand that is still going on.

So, I want to ask you the next question.

Today, in Department of Mathematics we have a

programme in Master of Technology in Industrial

Mathematics and Scientific Computing.

And this is one of the the unique programme in India today.

But when it was started I think you are the one of the

the the brain begin, begin this particular programme.

Yes. Because already it is, if I remember it is already 17 years

and now the programme is going in in a in a much

in which it it has got lot of. Yes.

Acceptability across India.

And with lot of collaborations from Germany, from all other

countries, and our students are doing extremely well.

I want to know how this idea came up to start such

Master of Technology in Industrial Mathematics at IIT Madras.

Till today, it is one of the unique program in India.

So, how this thought process came came to you

and you started the course on mathematical modelling in industry.

Till today that is the one of the popular course.

So, how this idea came out? Yes it evolve, it is almost need based.

There was all the time people used to talk with modelling aspects.

In in fact I appreciate one statement;

mathematics is theoretical engineering,

engineering is a applied mathematics.

Ok. So, that statement is very inspiring type

of statement people have always brought.

So, mathematical models are all there,

we thought why not a course can be developed.

I think that course is not evolved here for the first time;

it was there elsewhere in foreign countries.

Yeah, I am. In Germany; at financial.

But in India. Modelling.

That was the.

First time. Yeah.

Then we thought, in fact I always bring Professor Achuthan’s name,

I sat with him we both discussed

how about having a course in mathematical modelling?

Then we thought course in math; is there any books available? We searched.

We got books, then we thought why not frame a course?

Professor Achuthan asked me frame one.

Oh. So, we framed a course,

we got approved by the institute academic section etc.

Then, we offered it, to our surprise quite

number of first it went as an elective

engineering people they offered to come and attend.

Some faculty attended, some research scholars attended.

So, he got encouraged.

So, I gave that course because since I framed the course,

so it was my responsibility to see that it is given.

Yes sir, after your super? envision

it was me who

Prof. S. Sundar: teaching this course till today. Prof. S.N. Majhi: taken up very appropriately very appropriately.

Yeah. And of course, you revised. Now, I see

lot of the modern thoughts have gone into.

Then, we conducted that International Conference of Mathematical

Modelling. Modelling.

Pool from abroad came, they all

discussed, they presented papers, ideas came.

So, this industrial mathematics M.Tech. course

it it is a kind of automatically got generated,

not by any single person.

I think independently 3 to 4 of us we thought about it.

Right sir, right.

At that time Professor Parthasarathy was.

Professor P. R. Parthasarathy. P. R. Parthasarathy

was a head of the department. Head of the department.

And of course, we thought during our time, but

to to take its shape it took time, later debates are there this and that.

Then, Professor Parthasarathy has taken the responsibility after me.

And we framed, that continued, our discussion continued to,

one day Professor Usha came to my room we both sat and framed a write up.

Ok. To be sent to the director, we framed a write up.

This write up it played a good role and you people have gone to Germany.

Yes. And came and that also gave lot of good contact.

Then, there was not much favour in our department as such to start with.

Even in engineering departments there are bit

sceptical asking, how come M.Tech. course in a science department.

Ok. In senate we debated over it.

Oh. In one of the debates it was pointed out

that Delhi IIT has an M.Tech. course in computer science area.

Offered by by maths department. Mathematics department offers it,

that is where Professor Natarajan got an idea

and asked Professor Muthukrishnan to note it.

Oh, Professor R. Natarajan he was in in the director. Director.

Professor Muthukrishnan was deputy director. Deputy Director. Yeah, nice.

Ananth used to be dean of

academic courses. Academic courses. Very nice

those were helped us. They 3 helped us a lot.

And fortunately your good friend from calls what is that.

Is Kaiserslautern.

Kaiserslautern. Technical University.

Good friend.

Professor Helmut Neunzert. He visited.

Helmut Neunzert. And you are also joined

from Kharagpur IIT. True, true, true. To our at that time. Yes.

And that is fair things daily evolve.

And I remember Professor Natarajan

invited what is the German professor? Professor Helmut Neunzert.

Neunzert, to his room, asked him a few questions.

He asked this department wanted to introduce

M.Tech. in industrial mathematics, what is your opinion?

His beautiful way he talked mathematics,

industrial mathematics, mathematic in the Department of Mathematics,

oh, it is so nice.

Oh, ok. Just a few 1 or 2 that is what

Professor Natarajan told and it was approved.

Oh great. We started with 9 students.

Yeah, now. And here one thing we introduced

what is quite brand new, nowhere it was done, the seminar aspect.

Yeah, modelling workshop.

Workshop. Yeah. Modelling

workshop. Yeah, still it is going

mathematical modelling workshop. Modelling workshop,

weekly ones. Rarely,

yeah, we saw the problem. That is something brand new.

From the scratch to the model to the computing,

today it it has gone to that. And that is where the industry also

gave their problems for us to discuss it. Yes, yes, yes.

Still it is going on? Yes,

very we have a. The workshop.

very good connection and still modelling workshop is

very you know. Going that.

One component in.

And I must appreciate you.

Oh, that is your. After afterwards you have taken care of it.

Now, I understand it has gone to a very good level.

Yeah, we have lot of memorandum of understanding with

some of the top universities and we are working on a. And sponsored.

Exchange, student exchange programme.

Now, we have sponsors from DAAD.

Accha. And also we have good sponsor from Erasmus.

European Union where some every semester till 2021.

Every year 5 students of our end, they can go to

to spend one semester in in University of Kaiserslautern. German University.

Then, similarly the students from Germany

they come here for a semester. So,

anyway the main thing is you are the person

with your team at that time,

you started, you thought about it and you started this programme.

Confidence was somewhere else. Because we have seen that you are the

real, you know your foresee the importance of this particular programme.

So, I must really appreciate you for such good ideas.

One simple incidence I will tell you.

Please sir. During my headship you know the computers?

When was the the your? 92 to 95. 92 to 95, ok.

The computers are very popular during those days you know,

just started becoming popular.

We had no computers in our department.

Yes, yes. No computer.

And we requested our deputy director, Professor Muthukrishnan,

sir we do not have any computer department,

can you help us to have some computers in the department?

We want to have a lab.

He told what means computers.

Anyway, I will see he told.

Then, he gave us after repairing few old computers.

Ok. Repaired.

And he told repairing charges I won’t put on the department.

Ok. I will put in a general way.

You take this. We agreed this

and Professor Raghav Raj was in charge of the computer.

Ok.

That is. Now we have a big lab, M.Tech. lab

even we conduct. So

So, we started that

computer lab with 4 computers. Yeah.

And today of course,

computer is a way of life. Yeah, we have own service on that, yeah.

But I want to ask you one thing just to go back again to

Professor Chandrasekhar the famous the Noble Laureate,

so and he visited IIT Madras and he gave lecture. 87, 87.

Oh, it was 90.

So, you are there during his lecture at CLT

and how was that experience of meeting

this giant? You know Professor Achuthan

was very fond of theoretical physics.

When he heard that Professor Chandrasekhar is visiting the

Department of Physics, he informed all of us, he is coming.

All of us we will go and attend his talk, he is very enthusiastic.

And also just before his arrival to at India,

Chandrasekhar had a heart problem, a setback.

He came here with his wife actually.

First visit to us, Department of Physics here in and

he gave a talk in CLT, we attended it, beautiful.

His body language, modular voice and that

simple smile when he enjoys something telling is something very special.

Oh. His wife was there.

Ok. Lalitha.

His wife was also there sitting in the audience.

We were very fortunate to hear him.

So, so thank you sir for this great time.

And really I went back to you know 1960 68.

I was basically travelling along with you from 65 to till.

In fact, I must thank you to bring in my memory so much,

you know things nostalgic. I thank you very much.

Thank you sir. Thanks.

We thank the IIT Madras to bring both of us together. Yes, sir.

So nice. Thank you sir.

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Mrs. Mahalakshmi Gourishankar and Mrs. Vijayalakshmi Bhaskar in conversation with Sujatha Dube

Good morning, I am Sujatha

from the Development Office at IIT Madras

and I have the great honor

and pleasure this morning of interviewing

Mrs. Gourishankar. Her husband Mr. Gourishankar was

involved with IIT almost from the very beginning,

and his photographs and the memories

of Mrs. Gourishankar are part of IIT's heritage.

I am very happy to have this opportunity.

Good morning Mrs. Gourishankar,

Mrs. Viji, first of all thank you for this opportunity to talk to you.

Yeah. I would like to begin by asking

how did Mr. Gourishankar's association with IIT

and photography...all that began...begin.

Yeah, in 1960, I was away in Delhi, Viji was being on a...[Inaudible Dialogue]

and here, his friend Mr. R Natarajan was the Registrar here.

He said, "Gourishankar, why don't you come and take photos in IIT,

we are just started everything the building and all,

and Professor Sengupto will be very happy to be..."

because Professor Sengupto knew a lot about photography.

So, then in 1960 it started. First student’s associations, taking

the photos of the buildings, and then functions.

And then the convocation came.

So each convocation, he used to be called,

and then he used to cover those photos

that is how the association began, and Professor Ramaswamy

and others, Sampath and NCC leader Colonel Nair.

They all used to call him for the various photos

to be taken in their department.

So it was very little then, it had just shifted from Guindy

and the buildings were all under this thing.

And he used to come and take photos for them.

For the record, as Professor Sengupto said, "Right

from the beginning, to see that the trees are all there,

and the buildings are all coming and we are planting more trees"

and all. And he used to tell Gourishankar, how to take photos.

"Take this from the East, that from the West

and this building", you have to keep on saying right

from the ground this thing...foundation to the full building

that he used to do and all the occasions he used to come.

He was an amateur photographer or a

Yeah. Professional. Professional, ok

He was a professional photographer,

then he used to take industrial photography.

And his hobby was to take photos of the

temples and other monuments

Aand tourist spots in India that was his side,

but the main thing was, he was connect...as an industrial photographer.

He was taking photos for Guindy Engineering

and the the Guindy Machine Tools or the various companies

and industries in Madras, and also in Bangalore.

Ok. So, that is how he got connect to IIT.

IIT is one of the place he used to come and take photos.

How did his interest in photography begin?

Photography. He was always interested in photography.

Taking photos and he had a camera.

His father was a good photographer. Ok.

Even though there was no electricity in home

when he was married and came,

his father used to do developing at home.

Having the lights and all.

And he still had those red lights and all that you know.

My mother-in-law used to help my father-in-law.

And so, Gourishankar got interested in photography by his father,

because he used to take a lot of photos with his [Inaudible] camera

which he and his youngest sister Dr C. Minakshi.

Was a historian doing research work.

Under Professor Nilakanta Sastri.

So, my father-in-law used to go along with her to take photos

of all the thing, and till she received her Ph. D.,

he used to help her a lot with all the photos. Ok.

So, my husband was introduced in that way.

And when...I got married he bought his first Rolleiflex.

And he was having a very good hobby as a photographer.

And then geological survey...though he was interested in

geology a lot, he found that he could not...

the six months away from there, my mother-in-law was ill.

And he used to stay in camps and shift every ten days.

Then he resigned, and took up photography as a profession.

Ok. Till then it was a hobby.

Ok. In 1958 - '59 as he took it...the photography,

he started with IIT

that is how...in for...and he read about all photography.

He learned from every photographer. Right

from all the great famous photographers, and all their books

that is how he developed his knowledge about photography.

Do you know about his relationship with other famous photographers?

Yes. In

Yeah, in Madras.

All the photographers knew him.

And anyone in any interview,

They will say, "Do you know Mr. Gourishankar professional one?"

They all used to stand up.

Yes, you know its the (in Tamil) for our profession (in Tamil) an honour.

(In Tamil) after doing MA Geology, he's coming and doing what a photo...and he never stopped

taking its a perfect picture, that is what.

So all the studios and other people would come with to him.

Saying we couldn't get this photo will you please...

He...two or three days he will do.

And he will give them a very good picture,

and they will come and tell me,

"Mahalakshmi, I don't know, we couldn't get the photo

anywhere even G. K. Vale and others they could not do it.

And Gourishankar has taken a perfect picture."

So, that is how he learnt his photography, and to do difficult pictures.

How to tackle them and all. Right.

Even for IIT, there were many difficult pictures, he used to do them all.

That is how he learned photography.

And all the studios and other photographers

used to come home. They were all very good friends.

Ok. Just for learning.

For doubts, or for getting his comments

about their photos they all used to come.

We had very good relation with the...

Who were the other photographers ma, like Dr.

M. Krishnan, (in Tamil) and others like him...

His mentors and all. Yes.

M. Krishnan was his mentor.

He is a naturalist, and a photographer.

And he is very knowledgeable about photography

and he got fellowship Jawaharlal Fellowship and all.

Padma Shri and all.

He was a very good adviser for him

for any in...this thing concerned with photo...

And as he used to do still photography for his cousin.

R. N. Nagarajarao and other still photographers

[Inaudible] so, many people they all used to come

and he used to learn from them the still photography

this thing and the studios,

whenever they found any difficulty in any photos

or anything they used to.

Vaman Brothers, Madras Photo Store, G. K. Vale [incoherent]

They were all they...are very good friend

and we used to know them very well. Ok.

And we used to buy all the chemicals,

because everything was done at home.

All the developed...everything wow.

We had developed the dark room, and all the chemicals bought

and everything, those chemicals this thing also

people used to come. I have Krishnan's letters

and all, where he used to say, 'For this developer, for this stoning, for this...'

All the chemicals and all, they have learnt about so many other things

apart from photography, because they had to tackle different

Right. photos at different times, nature photography

and forest photography was M. Krishnan's thing. Ok.

So he learnt about that.

And all the...taking pictures of the statues

and taking pictures of the...each department here,

that was a real thing, some of them he had to bring out

they used to bring it out to the sunlight,

some of the...for...this thing he used to take home

and take...they all very well cooperated.

The buildings were just coming up. Yes.

Yeah that time.

They very well cooperated.

And the...the perfect background,

the perfect this thing, and the perfect camera.

He used to...and take the perfect picture. And

till he got the enlargement correct,

He never stopped. The negatives were prepared very well,

and then when the printing was done

the first picture, "No this can come better."

That is how he got the perfectionist title in photography.

Have you accompanied him on these photo shoots In IIT? Yes.

Everywhere everywhere. What what was IIT like in those days?

I just remembered 1961.

She was a baby.

We went to Professor Sengupto's house

the Directors Bungalow was very different then.

Now it is very different, and he used to come for all the functions.

Any function in IIT,

he used to come. She was a baby then,

few months old, but we bring her along.

And then when the...Viji was baby and Jayan, my son was born,

and they had school, I couldn't accompany him everywhere.

And there was always an assistant. Ok.

So he used to come

only for important occasion like convocation all, I used to come.

Or for any alumni this thing if they invited me

Rathindra Nath Roy this thing.

(In Tamil) What was Rathindra Nath Roy's friend's name?

They were all my alumni people.

They used to come, and when they invited we used to come

and see that plays dramas, everything. That

we enjoyed, inter-college plays and all. Everything

he will come...photography. Was that in OAT, was OAT there

In those days? OAT was...

After it came...afterwards there was no OAT before.

ok. After that only it came.

Everything came later it was

just plain jungle in '60-'61.

I remember '62,

it started. Professor Sengupto when he working,

and this thing...Professor Sengupto and Natarajan’s farewell...

everything we used to come when there was an occasion.

Otherwise, I never came to IIT very often

because Gourishankar always came with his assistant. Ok ok.

They used to to take photos I only helped him at home,

complete...apart from being a wife I was helping him in photography

in every way when he was doing development

and printing. Taking photos he used to come.

Developing printing I used to.

You used to Help him a lot

and that is how I knew about...

So that must have been very interesting for you to

learn...lot to... Very very interesting.

So, many people came.

They want to learn photography.

And some people who came, "Gourishankar

will you teach photography"...it can't be learnt in one day.

And he will advise them not to take up professional, leaving aside

other job because photography wasn't very well known those days.

As I said, as librarian and a photographer,

came up now, very very well.

Now they are all in very bigger.

after it became a library issue thing, with it...internet and all

and photography with the latest. Correct.

Those days it was not very well known. Ok.

Was he involved...I have heard that

he was involved with Campastimes did he used to write for...?

Yes, yes he was there proofreading in,

as a Roy Rathindra Nath Roy used to say,

"You will advise us at the batch...this thing...what used to come first

and whats the coming behind and what will come there."

And...the...give them all the advice about this thing.

Same thing ICC started and they published a thing,

he took photographs in all the departments.

And he found to his amazement that each department

didn't know what the other was doing.

He used to really complain to them that.

And then they came to know,

about the other, Gourishankar taught us,

see this is already there in the other department.

And when this the book was published I forget the name, ICC book...

they had a copy, but and then they run short that we gave it to him

and we had all the department photos in that

when it was started that's what...consultancy centre was started.

And then he used to help a lot.

Same way when German Consulate and this thing IIT and other people.

Had an exhibition here,

He was there throughout helping them.

Decide the space, arrange it, all that because

he had a good idea about the consistency, he was a very good artist.

Very good artist, that helped him a lot, to get the medal.

I think I had yes... German professors you...wanted blow ups

of the labs. Ok.

Because they developed the labs

Yes. You know.

In the institute, in the workshops. Et cetera.

So that...is he started doing 40 by 30 inches 60 by 40 inches you know.

And do you have those pictures?

The Heritage Centre if...

Has those pictures? Yes, they...

Mostly 40 By 30. ICC.

24 by 20, very few 60 by 40. Yeah.

And that is very different to a normal picture development? Yeah.

Yes You have to mount a enlarger. To still be clear when.

Yes. It is so, big.

You have to mount a enlarger on those...this thing loft. Loft.

And have the big trees huge.

Oh oh yeah, to...ok. Yes.

With a wooden this thing.

And the plastic sheet over it, we had...60 by 40 was very difficult.

The enlarger was up, and...was down

and three rooms were taken on for dark room. Yeah.

And all those pictures the German consulates only encouraged him

to do all the big pictures. All the German professors here Dr Hans Wagner,

Doctor Hans Wagner, Doctor...they all wanted him to do those.

Ok. Pictures for their record, to put up in the labs...the wall.

So, those pictures they took them? Are they still...? Yeah

exhibition took it...exhibition pictures were all here the German Consulate...[Indistinct Dialogue]

They they were different I think. (In Hindi) Oh, achcha

So. It might be with the German Consulate.

Probably. Ok.

Yes. Because the Heritage Centre's always looking for...I think...

Old I'll see...

pictures. old pictures with IIT photos (In Tamil) if it is there

(In Tamil) Please look if it is there. Photos. Yes.

They are all there. Yes.

It would be

Paper...yeah. Wonderful for them to

Yes. Have to.

Paper used to come in rolls,

and we used to cut and print them, I will find it when...[Overlapping Conversation]

Please, Ok ok.

For convocation also. (In Tamil) Yes.

He did with a lot of involvement you know. Yes.

He would attend the

rehearsals also. Ok, to plan the best way of...

[Indistinct Dialogue]

And then Jalakanteshwara...no rain

It was always July July always yes

So, he always used to come, three days rehearsal.

Who is coming, what all, and he used to enjoy hearing them talk and all.

Professor...Doctor J. R. D. Tata, and C. V. Raman

and Radhakrishnan...they all...all the dignitaries were here.

And some of them had visited IIT already.

All of them used to be there and the conversation and all,

and he loved the convocation...this thing very much, meeting people and all.

He came for the rehearsals

to see what angle would be best for each shot. Ok.

See he was very wiry and physically very fit.

And because this work demands that he did a lot of physical work.

Yes, yes yes. So he would climb very risky heights.

Oh my. Very true

Just so, that he could get a

Get the best

shot Oh my

from there you know. Even for building,

he used to go to the opposite side

and take the view from a very very high angle.

So, Professor Sengupto asked, "How did you take...

this should have been a very tall..." No no he climbed up

and took the photo..."Wasn't there a tree?"

He immediately said, "Wasn't there a tree?"

"Yeah, I boarded the tree and went to the other...

you know another thing...terrace." And all this thing,

they were planning, as I said, for three or four times

he used to rehearse and then come and take the photo.

Because he was such a perfectionist.

Yeah. Very very.

If he wanted a shot, he would

That yes.

Do anything to get it, even at

Yeah. risk of his own falling.

Yes, and the way they used, you know, it was always a

north-facing or south-facing...that thing, roofs.

He used to...Sengupto used to tell him, "Take it from this side."

Also his geologist training,

Right. He was very good at...he had a very good sense of direction.

Yes. And very good sense of lighting.

He would know which month of the year, what angle the light would fall, and

how it would get reflected and Wow.

What day...what hour of the day would be best for a certain shot.

And he used to see the clouds, Yeah.

Wonderful background, and then only he will take it...

as he says, lighting should be correct, which angle is correct,

and what height to go to, to take the photos.

Has he written about his experiences as a photographer?

No I don't think...

it would have so, nice to oh ok. He he did not have the time,

because he was doing it for a living, you see,

so, he had to support a family and so, his way of working

was actually not very sustainable,

because he would always be looking for the perfect print.

And so, the number of assignments that he could accept during the...any year,

was limited by how perfectly those photos Because a lot of

time was spent on ok, ok. Yeah

So that way he had very little time between assignments,

because they were always lined up. Yes.

People were always asking why havent you started our work yet. Ok. Oh my

You know and he kept saying, "I haven't..."

Because of his reputation, so...

Because of his very obsessive...

this preoccupation with that perfect picture.

He was very...

Even if he gave 50 pictures, each one of them have to be... Yeah wow.

And he asked her to do the rinsing

and the glazing, you know the...it had to be glazed in those days. Correct.

Because only she could do it perfectly.

He...he couldn't trust the assistant

with it, the assistant used to do all the other work.

Ok.

But he knew that she would do the rinsing very sincerely,

and not take shortcuts.

So that the picture would turn out perfectly. Yes.

It will go yellow for... Oh yes.

This is... The developing the last one is hypo.

Hypo has to be removed, otherwise the pictures will not be perfectly...

They will go yellow.

They will go yellow. They will go yellow not now,

but you know now if they are

still black and white it shows that...he didn't.

Yeah, I know usually they go...they go brown Yes.

when they get spots and so, many yeah. yeah

Old pictures. Even after so many years it is still...

It has to be washed seven times,

Wow. only then the hypo is removed.

Like that there used to be, and then, when he used to take the picture,

and printing and glazing needs to be done,

it has to be perfect, that is it.

And when someone came to take..."Gourishankar,

I want this photo taken of this machine,"

then he will take the picture and give it to them

and they will say, "We will come to him every time

because, we didn't even have a write up,

we just send this photo and we get all the... orders.

from abroad." Yeah.

And just the picture, and the company's name behind,

and we didn't give a write up or go to advertising agency and do anything,

because your picture speaks everything.

And they get all the order and one...

Yes, correct.

once he brought, and we have...he had an exhibition in Alliance Francaise.

Who is an...we can't go, we have an exhib...I will come later

when do you finish and then three months later

he came, brought the machine, took the photo and went.

And for that, he had to have a background

he had to have some...he'll buy small stones, small marbles

and other granite in a...and have a background

correct thing for the measure, and they used to be really perfect

and that is why they waited.

He...I told you his hobby was taking temple photograph and all,

so all those pictures were blown up

and put in an exhibition in Alliance,

and that was a very...famous one, Mister Harinarayana from...

curator of the Madras Museum came and inaugurated. [Inaudible Speech]

Yeah yeah yeah. You can see that, and also

No he is he had friends among the historians Yeah.

and archaeologists.

Yeah yeah. Because his aunt was the first

Very good.

Woman Ph. D. from Madras University.

Doctor C. Minakshi was his father’s younger sister. Ok.

That is how I said his father did all Right.

photography for her and Ok.

So for her thesis,

he remembers that his father used to do a lot of To do a lot

photography That is how he got it.

Yes. So are these pictures still in the Madras Museum?

Yes, I have yes. Those temple pictures.

Museum. I have all the picture,

Madras Museum returned it after the

exhibition was over. Ok ok.

I have all the pictures, these exhibition pictures,

large size as well as small size. Ok.

In August they wanted...Madras Day comes in August

Yes Madras week. So they said,

"You bring along Gourishankar's photographs, we'll display it,

because all the large size pictures are there, exhibition

pictures, some of them people bought

and took away, others are with us.

So this year there might be an exhibition

in...along with Madras week, very

nice Because the photos are all arranged, they have to be cleaned.

So July-August I'll do that and present it. Lakshmi...[Inaudible Dialogue]

[Inaudible Dialogue]

Ok. And.

Ok ok. So this is how the machine photography took on.

Everywhere, all the Guindy people

and other companies all over Madras and Bangalore,

they used to take photographs, bring the machine...

and Richardson and Cruddas was a very good...very good with that thing.

Yeah one's company

A company. Ok.

Which...which he did all pictures. Factories.

Then he used to go all over South India,

and anywhere...photographs

and what they did was, they brought home

all the things he couldn't take photos there...there it was at home. Ok.

In case you take photos and they take that.

The equipment and all Yeah.

that they bring it home.

Yes. Ok.

And also other architects.

Chitale, and other architect.

Whenever they had a good building, they used to come

ask, "Mister Gourishankar, you take all the photos."

Yeah. So, inside, outside, shot perfect

So Madras history, old...old building. Mrs. Vijayalakshmi Bhaskar: Yeah yeah.

Wow.

Chitale used to say, "I can't get any good picture like Gourishankar."

But sometimes they would lose patience,

because you couldn't get him to click, unless, he vis...

what he visualized came in the Yes

exposure. That was an...you know this indoor [Inaudible Dialogue]

He will not waste even a single exposure.

They'll say, "Sir, just take two or three we will see what comes," but he said, "No."

"I will take only one picture."

He was very very stubborn about that

He was so angry when...

[Inaudible]...Ooty. He wouldn't take a picture he says

He says, "I won't take this picture

because I know it won't come...come out well."

And they hence told me,

"It won't be Gourishankars picture, so, that is it madam."

He said, "You ask...you take it yourself, ask someone

else to take it, don't ask me to click from my camera." So...

There was a Central Photography Section set up

here, was he involved with... Yes, yes. Ok

From the beginning it must have...

There very much...and when that was...all the usual

photographs went to that photography department.

Only German professors and other faculty members

who wanted some machine picture which they wanted...there Kuberan or Kumar... (In Tamil) What is his name?

Kubendran. Kubendran.

Kubendran used to take all the photos

and everything, others Gourishankar used to come.

He was a regular Institute photographer. Ok ok.

But anything outside

of the routine he used to ask my father.

After the photography department came,

the regular photos were all done by him, by the department.

But they'd still call him, like you said, for events

or special...yeah ok.

Convocation, they would call him everytime. Ok. Yes.

I mean the other photographers would also be taking

pictures. Right ok.

But they wanted better a coverage,

smaller set of pictures. Ok.

Yes yes. And he would give them, you know these albums

that you see. Yes yes.

And he will never take more, they will say 100 pictures,

no 30 or 40, or whatever the occasion demands, Exactly.

Yeah only that photos he will take.

He says "For this occasion...." The others will come, "No, we want more photos."

"I know, you can inform any other photographer,

he will take hundred times this..." Not take more than this.

He was very definite about how he would. Mrs. Vijayalakshmi Bhaskar: He was very definite, his cousins...[Indistinct Dialogue]

I want your pictures...[Indistinct Dialogue]

He took only 30. Yeah.

That is all, he...whatever the occasion demands, only those

photographs he'll take...nothing extra

30 exposures That is why,

thirty pictures in one album that is it. Yeah.

That is why, in the convocation you read that this thing...complete

this thing...what all the programme

and where all he has to take photos, the President Prize,

the...Prize, the Director Prize or whatever

and he will take the photos of those students and give it correctly

and exactly...number not one extra picture.

One audience, that is all, no more.

He would have the list

He wouldn't budge,

but the few...he had a good sense of humour, you know.

So once I think person called...some student called Vannangamudi,

Ok. who won a price.

Some Governor's Medal...whatever.

And then they announced it, and

you know he was bending his head to

you know, greet the person...President

or someone who was giving him the prize,

and then two people were talking to each other

saying that, "See his name is Vannangamudi, but he is actually

bending his head", and so, he took he took a picture of that.

Because he felt that you know It is yeah.

it was good. So the...only in those instances he would budge from his

From his list How...

This [Indistinct Dialogue]

Yeah, I remember him narrating it to his... Ok.

So then as he grew older, he is...did he...

Yes. till what age did he go on taking pictures?

1995 I think we finished with IIT, slowly he...

But till '95. Gradually he stopped taking photos,

only a few...this thing we used to come, Professor [Inaudible] and.

But at that age also he used to... He was able to do Yes yes

He had a lot of willpower. Ok.

He functioned on willpower.

In all his effort...photography, he has all the things.

But he would work 65 hours Wow.

Continuously. non-stop, because because, he...the moment he

took a break, the chemicals would go waste,

and he would have to mix a new set of chemicals.

So in order to exhaust the chemicals,

He would go on working. He would work anything between 40 hours

and 65 hours. Yes, yes.

Three hours...we...three days we kept awake, Yeah.

And then we came here with the exhibition picture.

They said, "Please put up Mister Gourishankar, you only know."

Fourth day we were here and then we went to sleep. Yeah.

Three days continuously

we were working. Oh my

No sleep.

Complete...no sleep.

Because the German Consulate wanted the exhibition in the IIT

We never knew before, that was a last minute...this thing.

And we came, chose a place, brought all the photos.

Three days without sleeping, you were working. Yes, three days!

Three days fully we never had slept. Never slept, that was the maximum

I think. Fourth day, we put up the exhibition, and went home and slept.

Wonderful, the...he had stamina for...the photography and other things.

He would begin by cleaning the dark room every time he started.

Yes and he was perfect at home ok. Mamata Dash: Gourishankar Collection, all Gourishankar Collection. Mamata Dash: You can just scroll

He was perfect at home. Can you...can you see? You can move it so, she can. [Indistinct Chatter]

Collection.

(In Tamil) No, she's showing his (Gourishankar's) collection

Yes, yes there it is.

Yeah yeah he used to call it penguin,

Professor Sengupto said all the penguins are...

Sujatha Dube: Because of that gown and... [Indistinct Chatter] Mamata Dash: This I think all albums, all the photos are there.

Sujatha Dube: Oh, that's so nice Sports pictures,

he used to take all those sports day pictures... Yeah

And first one again... [Indistinct Dialogue]

Mamata Dash: You want to see?

Sujatha Dube: No no, let her

Mamata Dash: These are all his collections.

Sujatha Dube: Ok, I can look at it later, yeah. Yeah.

Sujatha Dube: They are digitizing everything, and putting it

Yes yes. Sujatha Dube: up on the Heritage Centre's

Sujatha Dube: website... Bhaskar told me...

even the ones I brought today,

those have to be digitized. Yes yes.

Important occasions and other things, they has to be digitized.

He said all the negatives have to be digitized.

I brought them in four or five lots. Ok.

Because I found them in various places,

and we had shifted house.

So, the...today I got 34 pictures.

[Background Chatter] Wow.

The set of picture and I brought them. Yeah.

And it was so nice to see all the the album within the archives

Yeah. there...is that...

Because the Centre is now become...really developing well and...

Indira Gandhi came,

that was so much, this thing...the security and all. Security.

And three days he used to come, and get all the detail,

because he said, "On that day, we won't be having...

that will be very crowded and everything.

Extra care we took on that time,

and same way, other visitors also.

Anyone from Germany came.

In '60, '61, '62, many people, (In Tamil) From the President, all the important people from Germany came

I will give them...all the negatives are there Ok ok.

They were all so pleased, you know he...they come to the

carpentry section, "Shall I plane?" "Oh, yes!"

Professor Sengupto will stand, and he will plane,

and he will take a picture.

That is how it was, it was all very very...friendly type their this thing,

those days.

I think all of us...all students have this... So many...so many jokes he had about

so many humorous instances, along with those people.

Everybody who studied here, has great memories of the workshops.

Yeah yes. Workshop...[Indaudible Dialogue]

[Indaudible Dialogue]

Vijayalakshmi. See...

Mamata Dash: This is Indira Gandhi convocation

I forget the name of the workshop,

Mister Gourishankar, they are coming and telling me,

"How can you have Sarswathi puja, it is secular here,

we dont have any...alright...we will call...worship of the...tools.

We will call it only worship of the tools

and we are worshipping the tools that is all."

No pooja nothing, see, there...you know...you

have to live with...your tools are everything in workshop. Yes, yes.

This is how he used to explain everything in that.

This seems is that Indira Gandhi (In Tamil) The pictures from convocation for which she came

Yes, 9th September, you know it was changed.

Saturday, the thing we had to...

Yes, this was the thing.

Wonderful, they were all there. Great pictures

All the Directors, right from Sengupto,

they were all there in the...and the school, Vanavani School.

And it was born. Mamata Dash: Yes yes, Vanavani creation day.

Right from the day it was born, we were there.

You know we knew all the...this thing

because he studied in Loyola College, and the mentor here,

the advisor here, was his professor from Loyola and the...the...the principal.

They were here. (In Tamil) What was that lady's name, ma...Professor...? [Indistinct Dialogue] She had come after Vanavani was started.

When was Vanavani started? (In Tamil) That was also in '60s...?

'65.

'65, four or five...

Jebamalai... Jebamalai Peters

She was the first...

[Indistinct Chatter] Just...I remember, we were there, right from the Vanavani started

there, taking pictures there...pictures of Vanavani also

(In Tamil) When did K. V. come about? Kendriya Vidyalaya...also around?

Kendriya Vidyalaya, no.

Ok later...Vanavani was first

Very much later.

Mamata Dash: '64. Around the same time.

Ok. (In Tamil) After '85-'86, we had stopped...so many, coming here.

Only important occasions, we used to come.

Actually you know from the negatives,

That he worked here till '95, because very rare occasion

he used to come there. (In Tamil) In '60 he started...

But just then, (In Tamil) He shifted here from Guindy

(In Tamil) After starting then...I think in 1995 something,

but very gradually we stopped this thing...yeah this thing.

Did he gradually...(In Tamil) Generally photography, because of age or?

(In Tamil) He left photography Ok.

But...

Vijayalakshmi Bhaskar: Because the kind of photography he did was very strenuous.

And yes, they used to ask him to take photograph of books.

That was the...[Indistinct Dialogue]

An American Professor, Santa Barbara,

when he came here and...he did his research and everything.

He took a lot of photos for him.

And then he used to give all the write-up,

and then for any information, there he was, with all the details.

Yes.

Sometimes IIT students used to come, I remember,

tha...they...I think maybe from the Photo Club or something,

they used to come to and spend, you know evening and night Right.

watching him work and, you know

getting this thing... Learning...learning

from him, ok.

That so many people did.

My friends, Yeah.

relatives, and unknown people.

They all used to come.

And he'd welcome everyone. Yes yes.

and so many people learned photography

and printing, development, printing and all...he was there.

Tea was on the tap in our house, tea, snacks or biscuits or bananas or...

Somebody...(In Tamil) someone will always be coming Mungfali (groundnut),

whatever, because she was so busy

and, you know

she...she would just make sure there is a stock of everything.

So, my father would drink lot of tea in between his works.

So whoever was there, there was a round of tea

Always had tea...and whoever worked there, the carpenter,

the assistants, and so many other people used to...painters

and the negative photographers,

assistant photographers...they were all there, together they all treat...

he'd treat them exactly equal to him, there was no difference for anybody.

All had khaana (food) together, all had...[Indistinct Dialogue]

And he would eat with them, not with us.

And when there was an exhibition or an important occasion

in IIT or anything, everybody will step in, they will do any work.

They will take over those work, and this one will take...

and then the album...then the frames and all finished,

everyone will be helping everyone,

and then it will be finished on time.

Great teamwork.

Yes. Yes.

He inspired the

people like that. Yes like that.

Because he himself was working very very hard.

Right yeah. Yeah. So, you know they said, why not...

So he would lead by example.

And he encouraged them to take on,

in life.

Right.

You know you can't remain an assistant you can't remain this way.

They encouraged him to swallow their own profession

and how they use...best to...there was one Chellamuthu, he went to his village,

and he thus benefited by visiting...and even when Gourishankar died,

the way he helped me, I could not have managed otherwise,

and in later days, he helped them a lot financially, everybody,

and even today when he ask his assistant to bring up anything,

"Oh, we will do it." And the...then the people thank me and I said,

"Don't thank me, you thank Gourishankar."

But he...because he is still rubbing...that rubbing on that...

this thing, "We will do anything for Gourishankar",

"We will do anything for uncle, we will do anything for him."

Because that's the thing they created for him. Any problem anyone had,

he used to go and solve them, or put them onto people, you...those who get it solved.

That way he helped everybody, he had an empathy for everyone,

and that still continues, even after so many years,

people just tell me, "Gourishankar (In Tamil) immediately, he will do anything...Chittappa (uncle) [Indistinct Dialogue]

and because relatives, friends, everybody will help. Photography and...generallly.

They all have such great memories. Generally generally generally, he had.

Our house itself was a 200 year old house.

It was just rebuilt once I think.

It was a street house in Nungambakkam,

where the front entrance was on one street, and the back...

back door was.

(In Tamil) Like an Agraharam

Agraharam house. With cowshed, with car garage,

With tulasi maadam, with a second kitchen for functions.

I didn't know there were such houses in Chennai

Court yard (In Tamil) I have seen it somewhere in Trivandrum Yes.

Courtyard and huge...big corridor,

and hall, and this thing...upstairs there was a big hall,

and we just created...painted...[Overlapping Conversation]

It's a heritage building.

Yeah yeah. (In Tamil) Now? Now it is gone,

we sold it long ago.

And then, background he used to paint one wall at the background

and all the photography was done there,

and the huge house, I think had all the things.

But later on he took nature photography.

And one wall he refused to let it be painted,

because he said it looks good as it is.

Because it shouldn't be even.

And then he took on photography, he used to do outside only.

In nature...nature light, everyone.

My mama’s (uncle's) daughter came, said, "Please take a photo."

He used to take the photo in the background...in the...behind

in a, near the all the palm trees and coconut trees.

That photo came out so well, they wrote back saying, "We are going

and looking at the photo every minute, I think that

Its so nice I have...never nobody has taken such picture of ours."

See, very high ceiling. Right.

So that is why he could do the enlargements

with the enlarger mounted on the loft Ok ok.

The negative used to stand...withstand all the big fine enlargement. Ok.

And he took a photo of Madurai temple,

he climbed one gopuram,

Oh my! He wasn't allowed, he took permission,

and then took the photo of southern gopuram

Nobody had that view at that height.

Who climbs up a gopuram? Yeah,

his friend from geological survey had gone with him.

"Ma, was holding to his shirt,

it was just sheer drop."

And he would take on taking photos and wait for the clouds,

and the picture had won so, many prizes

and Karumuttu Thiagarajan Chettiar from Madurai,

he took a large size enlargement of it, painted,

still there with him, Ramaswami chittappa (paternal uncle),

took it along and it is still there with him, he said, "I never knew

negative could stand this enlargement." It was perfect, clear

picture of that size, 60 by 40. Wow.

60 inches and That angle is impossible to get, unless

you take it from one gopuram,

and you know there are these holes in the gopurams,

he got to the edge of...inner edge of the holes Oh my.

so that you don't see the window like appearance. Yes.

So it looks as if you are viewing the other gopuram

from somewhere in mid-air.

This wasn't seen at all, the gopuram wasn't seen it...

It would be fantastic view.

Lying on his tummy for

hours, and his friend was holding onto...

On the gopuram...(In Tamil) Oh my!

Geological survey friend came and saidt, "We are doing some digging

and...at Thiruvannamalai, please come along."

He took photographs of the temple,

and the rice planting there, and also they were digging and

geological work. All three came,

but geological work of course, we printed and gave it to the department.

But this rice planting and Thiruvannamalai temple pictures

still, they are there, and all large size, because for the exhibition,

and small size, they have...exhibition pictures...small size pictures [Indistinct Dialogue]

I see. just 34 pictures (In Tamil) he kept in exhibition.

You should hold an exhibition

of his pictures.

Yes, they are having in...I think August.

We never got along to...he never believed in

Having a... having an exhibition, or in submitting his photos for competitions.

Ok. If someone called him and exhibited a photo,

and said, "This is very nice," it's ok.

But that is the only kind of recognition

that he...otherwise he will not go into...

And he doesn't take.

Just the picture was enough for him, getting the perfect picture. Yeah, yeah

that was enough. Yeah, any wedding, any birthday, any occasion,

presented pictures. So everyone was happy,

"Oh, there is Gourishankar's photo, oh there is..."

Professor Thomas from Alliance Française "That is your visiting card."

There everyone had pictures,

presented by Gourishankar.

Various pictures from various...statues and all.

So they all had pictures, because he used to present them right

and left to everybody.

Anyone who valued his work,

They got the picture...some.

If you can, you should write about all those times,

it will be very interest...with his pictures, make a beautiful book, I think.

If you, if you have the time. Yeah yeah.

Because you were there throughout with him, you saw everything.

Exactly.

She worked with him. You worked with him, you know all the details.

[Indistinct Dialogue] Kalyan...Kalyan Sundaram from State Bank of India

he was a very [Indistinct Dialogue]

So Appa (father)...[Indistinct Dialogue]

And he wrote such a...[Indistinct Dialogue]...Appa (father) replied, "Kalyan,

you have helped me so much, I stood in front of the mirror I find a halo in front of me."

"You praise me so much, you deserve all the praise."

I'll come and meet Professor...[Indistinct Dialogue]

His fellow students,

like this person from Geological Survey.

From from his M. A. Geology class, and from Geological Survey,

they used to have a lot of regard for him,

because even the 10 years or so, that he spent in GSI,

He...his mapping was so perfect,

that even to this day, they dont have to alter it,

even by an inch.

And now Jayanth showed me (In Tamil) in is there in the internet, you put Geological Survey,

and there is Gourishankar. Yeah.

With all these surveys done in various front, from Bihar and Madras.

Wow.

Sunderbans, everywhere he has...

Yeah, when he resigned, Professor...[Overlapping Conversation]

(In Tamil) I though he would give a survey...report and go.

He has given perfect reports of all the places,

he used to enjoy writing the reports.

Wonderful, and the survey they used to do, wonderful in each quartz,

in each stone, and he had a lovely rockery at home,

in the garden he had a huge big house I told you with a [Indistinct Dialogue]

The background...backyard was a very huge place,

he had a beautiful rockery, and inside the house, almirahs

contained all the rocks, and his friends used to tell

they bring the hammer, they bring the rock, Gouri is the best person to trim.

He will trim each one beautifully.

You know they get the rock from the...this thing,

Yeah. then it has to be trimmed in a nice way.

Correct. To show the correct...

of the rock, and his friends used to have just fingertips about all

the rocks, Professor Gopalan and all.

And they used to come, and we had a beautiful almirah fullt,

and a rockery in the garden of the geological...

that helped him a lot in photography.

GSI, geology...

and I asked him, "If that was geology and that started...

and you took it because you liked, if there was...otherwise

what would you have taken?" "I would have taken archaeology

or architecture." Both of them weren't there then...

He loved buildings and history

Because he used to paint a lot. Oh ok.

I got pictures of his painting of his professor,

He draws and paints my sister-in-law's picture.

He draws and paints beautifully.

She got it, painting and all. Ok.

(In Tamil) He knows it well.

So... He used to write also, he was a very

good writer.

[Indistinct Dialogue]

He used to...he used to write in

Times of India, Sujatha Dube: Ok.

those days. Sujatha Dube: Ok.

Sujatha Dube: So do you have those?

Anywhere we went he used to write articles. Sujatha Dube: Ok.

I got all his articles, yes they were...they were printed in paper and magazines,

Times of India, Illustrated Weekly, all had his articles, yes. Mamata Dash: He has written one article in...

I have seen the article this one,

the 'Dear oh Dear', 'Oh Dear, Deer!' yes I have this...is very nice.

He used to enjoy reading Campastimes, Ok.

so he contributed this

Very nice, this is very well...funny...funnily written.

And anywhere he went, he took photographs,

he will come home, write an article and attach the photo

and send it to the paper, and there it was.

This is very interesting, he talks about about how he needed to buy

camouflage with green hat...

Such preparation na, before.

And all the archaeology people used to come home

because of Dr. C. Minakshi is out there.

They used to tell Gourishankar, "Go here, take photos, this will be nice." [Indistinct Dialogue]

Go to this place, that place, he went all over,

took photos, and he used to write article and send it to paper.

The photographs are still there, and the articles are also

there, cuttings, I have kept them.

That is very nice.

All the cutting...and he also stored scrapbook.

Cuttings of all interesting articles, not a scrapbook exactly,

they were collection of very good pictures, and same way, arts.

Any picture, any painting, any art, he used to collect, a big scrapbook of.

So he had many interests...

He was interested in so many things, not only photography.

To keep up with them. Because he got very tied up with being a With the...

professional photographer. Ok.

When he was a geologist,

he could Yes.

But this was much more time consuming, And and any

art exhibitions, he will be there.

In this thing...the Lalit Kala Akademi...

Akademi, wherever he used to...in the museum anywhere,

any exhibition he will be there,

and he used to be judge in the tourist department.

He used to call him for being a judge, Mahabalipuram and other places.

Where the tourist guides were given an examination, oral examination.

He used to go along and be a judge there,

because he used to ask the correct question as...[Inaudible Dialogue]

tourist department visiting will attend them,

and correctly he said, "These students answer very well."

In this thing.

Mister M. Krishnan used to come and watch him work,

and he used to go to...we were family friends. Ok.

He would visit him,

you know as he was developing his wildlife pictures, Right.

He also had very nice documents very nice...

he did all his photography work himself, apart from that

he was a writer. M. Krishnan wrote in 'Statesman,'

and any...they had...we had very good conversation.

"Gourishankar you told me this today,

I must write it in my next article."

And there in the next 'Statesman' it will be there.

That is why the conversation we had, and...the and how much we learnt,

that was the thing...how much we learnt from all

these various friends and acquaintances, is remarkable.

And they also said, "We also learnt equally from you."

Both of them, he did...when he was doing his photography,

they were both attending to my grandmother,

Yes. who was a bedridden patient.

Oh ok.

Arthritis patient.

So, on the one hand, they would do the photography,

And take...that's also very time... continuously take care of...

see, in those days no attenders...

He looked after his mother very well.

So, he had to do much of it yourself, (In Tamil) Isn't it? Yes.

Both of them looked after my grandmother,

because she needed handling.

She was...she was

completely bedridden. Poor...

1953 I got married,

'55 she fell ill, till 1967...she died...for 12 years,

you took care of her. Yes.

In with all the... With all this

Viji, Viji baby... And with children and...

Only Jayam was born later on, my son was born after she died.

But Viji was a baby, and my photography, and my mother-in-law there.

Oh my, three full time jobs

Yes. Yes.

All in the same house, you know

We had very good servants, very good cook,

and people to help, anytime, because we were there in that house,

right from 1807, Gourishankar’s great great grandfather

had bought the house from the East India Company.

We had all those papers.

And, right from that time, we were there in Nungambakam

in that house, which was demolished and built again and again,

but the later house was so beautiful, everyone else

said, "Gourishankar please will this house to me!"

Unfortunately, it was co-owned by many other people,

so it had to be sold

It had to be sold

He couldn't afford to buy it by himself. Yes.

It must have cost. He was sentimentally very attached to it.

But it was one of those...

He must have grown up there then, if his great grand....born and grown...

Born and grown up.

You have any other question that you want to ask?

No I don't have any that's it.

Is there anything else you would like to say or add?

I [don't think so. Yeah.

Thank you again, this was wonderful talking to... Thank you very much.

Thank you.

I the recalled all the nostalgic memory and this thing about Gourishankar.

I hope you have you can write about it,

I am sure it would be a great book. Yeah yeah.

Thank you.

Thank you, thank you.

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Prof. R. Srinivasan in conversation with Prof. M.S. Ramachandra Rao

Welcome to the oral history interview

organized by the Heritage Centre of IIT Madras.

I am M. S. Ramachandra Rao from the Department of Physics.

I am extremely happy, and also I feel privileged to interview

a living legend Professor R. Srinivasan;

Ramaswamy Srinivasan whom we all dearly call as Professor R.S.

Professor R. S. served IIT Madras from

1962 to 1990 for about 3 decades,

and during the time of his service, he graduated about

25 Ph.D. students and published about 250 research papers.

He…al…he was also the Dean of Academic Research,

Dean of Student Affairs and he also held the position of

Deputy Director of IIT Madras.

More than anything, Professor R. S. has been

an extraordinary teacher and a wonderful

and meticulous experimentalist.

In fact, he changed over from theory to experiment.

He was initially working on the Theory of Lattice Dynamics,

and then…he became…all in all a

true low temperature experimental physicist.

He was not only instrumental in IIT Madras

in establishing a state of the art low temperature facility,

first of its kind in the entire country.

This used to be a central facility for

low temperature measurements,

way back in the mid-80s, during the ITC boom.

Later, in the later part of his career,

he was asked to establish 3 national centres of

great importance, under the name

‘Inter-University Consortium’ in Bombay, Indore and Kolkata.

I mean, these centres are so important now for people

working in universities and…and…and to have access to

you know, high-end facilities for their research.

He is an epitome of…a great academician,

he is an embodiment of a great academician who should be

emulated by one and all.

At the age of 87, he is 2 years older than my father,

he still sits and you know, plays with physics instruments.

His mission is to fabricate low cost physics equipment

and he has succeeded in that endeavour in a very big way.

He’s been training teachers by way of refresher courses...

About 2000 teachers were trained by him, and he had

conducted 85 refresher courses, and we are going to

hear all about it from him very soon.

He is defined as a…a…a…a true karma yogi.

We are happy to have you here, sir.

Thank you for coming over for this interview.

And I also would like to welcome Mrs. Radha Srinivasan

who these days prefers to travel along with him

wherever he goes and also Professor Swamy

and my colleague Professor V. Sankaranarayanan

from Low Temperatures Physics Lab.

So, Professor R. S., I would like to ask you to tell us about

your schooling and college days before joining IIT Madras.

Yeah, see my schooling from first form to fifth

form was mostly done in Andhra Pradesh because

my father was a PWD engineer in the pre-independence

days Madras Presidency.

He was transferred from place to place.

So I did first form to fifth form in Proddatur in Kadapa District,

Madanapalle and Bellary.

And then I did sixth form in Ramakrishna School

in Chennai, and did my intermediate in Loyola College,

and my B.Sc. honours in Madras Christian College in Tambaram.

Then, I joined the Indian Institute of Science, Bangalore

in 1951 for my Ph.D.

And in those days, IISC was not giving degrees,

so we had to register with our parent universities,

in my case Madras University.

I got my Ph.D. in 1957,

then continued as a postdoctoral fellow till ‘62 in IISc Bangalore.

‘62 I joined IIT Madras.

And can you tell us your experience at IIT Madras

and about the Physics Department.

I think Physics Department just then started, with

Professor Ramaswamy heading

the department, and about your colleagues.

Yeah…see when I joined in 1962,

the Physics Department was already established by Professor C. Ramasastry.

He had appointed a few faculty members and

started the teaching programmes for the B.Tech. students.

But in those days, there was only one building;

the Building Sciences Building.

And all departments were housed there,

so lectures were conducted there.

About a year later… ‘63,

the Humanities Sciences Building came into

existence and we moved into the Humanities Sciences Building.

Professor Ramasastry also negotiated with the GTZ,

the German Technical Aid Organization for 8 to 7

laboratories in the Physics Department.

So the credit for starting the Physics Department

goes to Professor Ramasastry.

When I joined, there were already a few faculty members.

I think Professor Sobhanadri was there.

There was Dr. Ramanamurthi,

Dr. Sivaramakrishnan, S. B. S. Sastry,

Y. V. G. S. Murthi…these people were there.

Then, I was working in theory at that time,

and there was Dr. Ramji Rao who worked

with me on…for his Ph.D. on Lattice Dynamics.

Then during ‘65 to ‘67,

I went as a Visiting Research Associate to the

Material Science Laboratory in Penn State University

where I worked on theories of non-linear elastic constants,

third order elastic constants,

how to calculate them from

fundamental forces between the atoms.

So I published several papers there,

came back and continued this work till ‘71.

My colleagues in the Physics Department

were very good, and we had

excellent relations among the colleagues.

Professor V. Balakrishnan joined later,

but I have a very high regard for

Professor V. Balakrishnan because he is an exceptionally good

theoretical physicist and a very good teacher.

In fact, we were involved in modifying the

structure of Physics teaching for the B.Tech. students.

It was changed from 5 semesters to 3 semesters,

and Professor V. Balakrishnan made the curriculum

for three semesters and I taught with him…the B.Tech. students,

I also taught M.Sc. students.

I taught theory, all topics like Mathematical Physics,

Classical Mechanic, Statistical Mechanics, Quantum Mechanic,

Solid-state Physics to the M.Sc. students.

Then I started lectures and Cryogenics as an

elective, and we built the Low Temperature Lab.

This is how it happened.

Very nice, sir.

So, you have been working on a

Lattice Dynamics…Theory of Lattice Dynamics,

but then you changed over to Experimental

Low Temperature Physics, which is of course,

a very important area, and this has…

your venturing into that field in one way

has helped, you know, people like us

who work in Experimental Low Temperature.

See, actually for my Ph.D., I did experimental work

and Thermal Expansion down to 90k.

To explain the results, I had to learn theory.

So I read all theory papers and max bonds theory and Lattice Dynamic,

and then, we did a lot of work on Lattice Dynamics,

and one thing led to the other;

from Lattice Dynamics, I went to anharmonic property of crystals,

then non-linear elasticity and so on.

In 1971, the Low Temperature Laboratory was

started with German aid in the Physics Department.

And Professor A. Ramachandran who was

the Director at that time, he put me in charge of the

Low Temperature Lab, because he knew me back

from IISc days, and he knew

I had worked in Low Temperatures at that time.

But I had not worked in Liquid Helium.

Work at Liquid Helium is totally

different from work at Liquid Nitrogen.

And so I had to first learn how to operate and

maintain the helium plant,

because if the helium plant goes bad,

we have to wait for technicians to come from US,

and that may take several months or years.

So we had to see that we maintain the equipment,

so that the liquefier ran all the time.

And then I had to start experiments to train the

students in low temperatures and then start research.

But changeover was not difficult, because

I have…I am a self-made physicist because when

we studied B.Sc. honours, we were not taught much of

Mathematical Physics or Theoretical Physics.

So I had to learn all of this by myself.

But I found that if you read the papers or the books,

and read them 2-3 times, then you understand

you can do any type of Physics, whether

it is experimental or theoretical.

So this is how I started;

I changed from theory to experiment.

So would you…we…we would like to hear from you

more about Low Temperature Physics Lab,

how it was established, and about your students

Prof. R. Srinivasan: Yes. Prof. M. S. Ramachandra Rao: who worked on many topics including

High Temperature Superconductivity?

Yeah, you see, the Low Temperature Lab

was aided by the German government and

there was a professor from the German side

who interacted with me and this was

Professor Klipping who had a lot of experience in

international collaboration.

Professor Klipping realized, that though

I was a theoretical physicist,

I understood how to do Low Temperature experiment.

So he supported me very strongly.

When the Low Temperature Lab was established,

the German government gave us some minimum

equipment to do a few experiments,

but we didn’t have money to purchase

additional equipment like temperature controllers,

vacuum pumps, and so on.

Professor Ramachandran,

Director was kind enough to sanction 10,000 rupees per year

as grant for Low Temperatures,

but with this 10,000 rupees, I could import 6

cylinders of helium gas from UK.

I had no money for buying equipment.

Professor Klipping realized this, and he told me that

in their lab they are throwing off old

measuring equipment and replacing them by new ones

or they’re throwing off equipment which doesn’t work

because it was much cheaper to buy new equipment

in Germany than to repair old equipment.

He said he will send all this to me, and if

I can salvage some of the equipment and repair the

equipment I can use it in the development of my lab.

This is how we develop the Low Temperature Lab

in a very low cost way.

And I am always conscious that any development in

India must be low cost development because

there are many universities which don’t get

enough funds for their research purposes.

So we started like this.

I went twice to Germany for three months each time

to work in Professor Klipping’s lab,

but I understood Low Temperature Physics,

so started our own activities.

When we had problems, we repaired our

equipment ourselves, and we were…our low temperature

liquefiers were working all the times, whereas,

in other institutions in India, the breakdown time was large.

Well, my liquefier was the smallest liquefier in India;

2 litres of liquid helium with liquid nitrogen pre-cooling,

but it was working.

And TIFR wanted to send some equipment in a balloon

for astronomical purposes, and the

detector had to be cooled with liquid helium.

Their machine was not working,

so they asked me whether I could make 100 litres of

liquid helium and supply it to them.

To make 100 litres, I had to run my liquefier nonstop for four days.

But I told them, “You bring the gas, and you bring your helium container,

I will make the liquid helium and give it to you.”

And I and my colleague Venugopal we slept in the lab

for four nights because we didn’t know whether

there would be power interruptions which were

frequent in those times.

Luckily, the four days there was no power interruption.

We made the 100 litres liquid helium gave it to them.

And that is why the reputation of my lab grew.

People realized that here was one lab where the liquefiers

was working all the time and you can depend on

them to supply liquid helium.

Then I developed low temperature experiments.

I got projects and the DST made me Chairman of the

Programme Advisory Committee in cryogenic for 10 years,

to develop large scale cryogenic applications, engineering applications.

So we gave projects to IIT Bombay,

IISc Bangalore, IIT Kharagpur,

where there was an advanced cryogenic centre

to develop large scale cryogenic engineering equipment.

IIT Bombay made a Stirling cycle liquid nitrogen plant,

completely indigenously.

IIT…IISc made 100 litre liquid helium demand.

So like this, large scale cryogenics work came up,

but I want to say that our development of Low Temperature Laboratory

was closely bound with the Material Science Centre of IIT…IIT Madras.

I can talk about this if you want.

See, when we started doing research, Professor G. V. Subba Rao

was appointed Head of the Material Science Centre.

He was an exceptionally good material scientist.

Made very good materials.

And I developed very close collaboration with Professor G. V. Subba Rao.

So he made several phase, superconducting materials,

magnetic pyrochlore materials and

later high temperature superconducting materials,

very high quality materials which he will characterize

using X-ray diffraction and other facilities,

and then we take the materials and

do all low temperature measurements.

This collaboration was essential for the development of

research in the Low Temperature Lab.

And I am greatly beholden to

Professor G. V. Subba Rao for his help.

He and his students…Professor M. S. R. Rao was there at that time,

Varadaraju was there, and our Sankaranarayanan

did work and several face superconductors…

Vasudev Rao worked on

thermoelectric properties of these materials,

Ranganathan worked on magnetic properties of pyrochlore,

and several other of my students worked on

high temperature superconductors.

And this collaboration with

Materials Research Lab is continuing even today, after 40 years.

This is an example of how a very good collaboration between

two different departments could develop in IIT.

And I am greatly beholden…you must show the

photograph of Professor G. V. Subba Rao.

I learnt he passed away last year and I felt very sad.

He was a very good friend and very good collaborator for me.

Thank you, sir.

So it’s…it’s really good to know how IIT Madras

was a nodal point in…in developing the low temperature facilities

that have become so important for…for…for establishing similar

facilities all over the country.

I need to mention a few words about Professor Klipping.

You see Professor Klipping had in his laboratory, people from

China, Japan, Soviet Union countries, USA and India.

And in India, through me, he got to know people in IISc Bangalore,

IIT Bombay, IIT Kharagpur,

and the German collaboration in cryogenics expanded to these laboratories.

And Professor Klipping played a very important role

in the development of cryogenics in India.

He got the Mendelson award in 2003

which was given in China to him.

And during the award lecture, he showed my photograph

and he mentioned among all the international collaboration,

the collaboration with India worked

best which I started in IIT with Srinivasan.

So, it was…he was a very good personal friend

of mine and he liked India so much,

after he came to this country, he helped

several institutions in India to grow.

I thought I should mention this because Professor Klipping…

you see there were many German professors who helped IIT,

but Professor Klipping’s help extended

beyond IIT to other institutions in India.

Very good to know all this, sir, yes.

Prof. C. S. Swamy: Which institution in India had the liquid helium facility

Prof. C. S. Swamy: first? Prof. Srinivasan: Yes, the first institution to have liquid helium

facility was National Physical Laboratory,

then TIFR. But the National Physical Laboratory,

there was a person from UK who was

heading the low temperature division.

After he went away, the liquefiers were not functioning.

TIFR also, they had problems, and that is how they

came to me to supply 100 litres

of liquid helium for their experiment.

So now, beyond academics, you also served in

several administrative posts as Dean of Student

Welfare and Dean of Academic Research

and also you were the Deputy Director.

Can you share us your experiences in those positions?

In Low Temperatures?

Yeah.

As Dean of Academic…

see, I didn’t do much administration as Dean of Academic Research,

Dean of Student Affairs and Deputy Director.

I used to go in the afternoon…1 or 2 hours

to the administrative office, complete my administration,

I took my full teaching load during that time.

I used to come in the night to talk to the research students.

But as Dean of Research, there were two contributions

I made which were quite important:

one was the gas supply to various departments broke down

completely for 3 months, and chemistry suffered very badly

because their research depends on the availability of high purity gases.

So they made a complaint to Professor Indiresan

that the stores section and the Indian oxygen

they were having some problem and this disrupted

the gas supply, and they were badly affected.

So Indiresan told me, “You look into the problem.”

And I restored gas supply in 15 days

by changing the method of procurement and distribution.

I set up a Central Gas Supply Unit,

I was…I went there and along with my colleagues

pulled out all the old cylinders in the store,

we got the gases…I…if they were not used fully, we said

return the cylinder, we put it in our cylinder,

returned the cylinders to Asiatic Oxygen.

So we built up a supply of gas.

If anyone wants gas urgently, we will be able to

supply from what we had, and we also saw that

every week or every 15 days, gas will be procured,

it will be distributed to all departments.

Old cylinders will be collected, gas will be shared,

empty cylinders will be returned.

This solved the problem immediately

and I think this unit is still

Prof. Srinivasan: working Prof. Rao: Is still continuing, yes.

Then, I set up the Extra Mural Lectures.

Professor Indiresan felt that students of IIT should

not only be exposed to engineering and science,

they should also be exposed to lectures about art,

medicine, journalism and so on.

So he told me I must organize Extra Mural Lectures every

Wednesday between 4 and 5,

by eminent people in different areas.

And I must do it every week.

So, we did that, and this became very popular.

In fact, Extra Mural Lectures, the Central Lecture

Theatre will be filled up half an hour before the

lecture, and I bring the speaker, there will be no

place for me to sit. It became very popular.

We got Arthur Clarke,

we got Justice V. R. Krishna Iyer to talk about jurisprudence,

Rashmi Mayur to talk about environment,

Khushwant Singh to talk about journalism,

Iravatham Mahadevan to talk about numismatic,

Padma Subrahmanyam dance, Veena Balachander music.

So I made a list of speakers, and saw to it every

Wednesday there was…Extra Mural Lecture.

And after my time, it was handed over to the

students and I learnt that the 100th Extra Mural Lecture was conducted.

Now in a very big…you know the Student Affairs Centre;

a very big auditorium is there, it was conducted a few years back.

But they are not doing it every Wednesday,

I was doing it religiously every Wednesday.

I enjoyed doing this.

These are the two things that…

I…major contributions I had made during my…

(Inaudible off-screen voice)

You see, before I became the Dean,

when I was in the Physics Department,

Professor Ramachandran gave me the responsibility of

setting up the Central Glass Blowing Unit.

I was doing theory, I didn’t know anything about glass blowing,

but I talked to the glass blowers,

find out how much of gas is required,

I procured the machinery, and in 3 months,

this Central Glass Blowing Section became operational.

It helped the Chemistry, Chemical Engineering Department.

And later my lab, because all glass levers

we got made in this Central Glass Blowing Lab.

I think it is still

Prof. Rao: Still.

functioning well.

So these are the 3 major contributions I did.

Thank you very much, sir.

So the Central Glass Blowing Section

and the central gas distribution was still functional.

Of course, these two are indispensable

for experimental research groups in…in…in the Institute.

Prof. Rao: So we are thankful to you for starting off…these units. Prof. Srinivasan: That’s ok

It was my job…you see,

if there’s a problem, I want to solve it quickly

without violating any administrative procedures.

So I called a meeting of the accounts officer,

audit officer, talked to them about the method of

pom…payment to the Asiatic Oxygen, the type of agreement.

After achieving a consensus, I put this into practice.

So, there were no administrative problems.

Otherwise we get bogged down by a lot of procedural problems.

So that I avoided.

So that way, I think it is good for an academician

to take up administrative posts sometimes.

You know, to solve such important issues at the Institute level.

Prof. Swamy:What is your colab…what was your collaboration with IGCAR?

Prof. Rao: IGCAR collaboration. Prof. Srinivasan: See, IG…

See, I have very good friends with

Department of Atomic Energy people.

I worked in Lattice Dynamics.

They also worked on Experimental Lattice Dynamics,

very good collaboration.

So when IGCAR was started,

the Director C. V. Sundaram, he wanted to have collaboration with

IIT Madras in general,

but they wanted to start a low temperature lab there.

They didn’t have the facility,

so two of their scientists worked in my lab for 2 to 3 years.

Used our facilities to do their experiments and then

when they set up the lab, they had the necessary

expertise to run the machines and set up the lab.

So this cooperation with IGCAR proved

useful when I went to IUC Indore,

so I had collaboration with IGCAR in…they were setting up…

it was not from IIT, they were setting up a

Low Energy Accelerator, and they

wanted students to help them.

And I provided small fellowship to students from universities,

they provided accommodation,

and with this help of students,

they set up the Low Energy Accelerator.

The students gained very good hands-on experience,

they got their Ph.D.. Many of them who didn’t come

through GATE, who came from very poor families

are now occupying very top positions abroad

there and the editorial boards of several journals.

So this was a very good collaboration I had with IGCAR.

So now, after you…you…you left IIT, you are

given this big responsibility of establishing the

the National Centre, you know,

Yes.

Inter-University Consortium.

See, I was offered the position of Director of

what is now called UGC-DAE Consortium for Scientific Research.

You see, the UGC set up two other Inter University Centres,

one was IUCAA; astronomy and

astrophysics headed by Professor Narlikar at that time.

The other was an Accelerator Centre in Delhi,

where they had a pelletron.

This was the third centre.

The idea was, The Department of Atomic Energy had

set up very large facility like neutron spectrometers and Dhruva reactor.

They were coming up with synchrotron radiation

facility in CAT Indore and variable energy cyclotron in Calcutta.

So the university scientists should go and use these facilities.

So we needed some interface which will allow

university scientists to access DAE facilities.

In addition, we had to set up some facilities,

so that the university people can characterize their

specimens before taking it to the DAE facility.

If the specimens are not well characterized, results are useless.

So they set up a main centre in Indore with two other centres

in Bombay and Calcutta.

And I was asked to be the Director.

When I went to Indore, there were 6 empty rooms.

So I had to build the 3 centres from scratch.

I realized low temperature experiments are very important for characterization.

So I got a 25 year old nitrogen liquefier which we got

first in our Low Temperature Lab and which was lying idle,

we replaced it with a more modern liquefier.

And I…Professor Klipping was disposing of his old liquid helium machine,

he was getting a new machine,

he said he will give the old machine to me if

I paid for transportation of the machine.

So I got these too.

And I had one person, Ganeshan trained in my lab.

So he set up both these machines.

We produced liquid nitrogen liquid helium in

Devi Ahilya University where our consortium was located

and I set up all low temperature measurement facilities.

And…so that the university people will come and use it.

In 3 years, the IUC…3 centres came up very fast.

When I left, there were about 100 users for our facilities

and users for Dhruva reactor and cyclotron.

We were supposed to build one photoelectron

spectrometer beamline which we built

before Indus One was operational.

So I left, but when Indus One was operational,

our beamline was the first beamline to be installed

and it is still working.

And so today, I made as a Chairman of the Programme

Advisory Committee in Condense Matter Physics,

I made a recommendation, a report to the DST

that they must set up a national centre

for low temperature high magnetic field.

After a discussion which took place in IISc

where all top physicists were there,

I made a detailed estimate of how much it would cost,

what machines should be purchased, what should be the structure.

The DST accepted the report, but I left the IUC.

After that, they set up one facility in IUC Indore,

which will be accessible to all university and another centre

with complementary facility in IISc Bangalore.

This centre is working extremely well,

got an excellent rating in IUC from the DST.

There are 70 users for low tempera…

all types of low temperature measurements you

can do down to 1.8k at up to 16 tesla magnetic field.

So this is acceble…accessible to all university users,

70 users from small universities are using the

low temperature facility.

They are coming out with excellent research

papers in good journals like Physical Review.

All other facilities in Indore, in Bombay, and in Calcutta,

the facilities are being used by 1200 university users every year.

This has become a big success.

But success is not due to me.

It is due to the Directors who succeeded me, they had

a very good vision and they carried forward what I started.

But it is an excellent institution.

Apart from IISc, TIFR it is one institution you have…where

you have excellent facilities for condense matter research.

There are some facilities not available in IISc

and TIFR, they come and use the facilities there.

But you created the nucleation…

It has come up very well.

nucleation centre to grow it in such a big way.

Yeah, it has grown very well.

Then, I retired from IUC Raman Institute in Bangalore, small institute.

They asked me to come as a visiting scientist.

Professor Kumar was the Director.

He wanted to start some new areas;

experimental areas of research and he asked me for suggestions.

I told him we can start work and cold atoms,

where atoms are cooled by lasers

to temperatures of 50 to 100 micro kelvin.

I gave a series of lectures, he got convinced,

he gave seed money,

And Professor Hema Ramachandran built the lab,

I gave her suggestions.

Together we produced a cold cloud

of 50 to 100 micro kelvin of rubidium 87.

Today, it is a very active lab and 3 years ago,

the Bhatnagar Award winner was from that group.

Yes.

So these are two things I did.

I will talk about experimental course.

I would…yeah. We would like to know about

your other role that you got from Academy of

Sciences to establish the…you know the

Prof. Rao: refresher courses which again was a big success. Prof. Srinivasan: Yeah, you see

the Indian Academy of Sciences,

in 1996, they started refresher courses to be

given by fellows of the academy.

2-week courses to update the knowledge of teachers in universities.

These were all theory courses.

In 2001, Professor Mukunda, Chairman of the Science Education Panel

gave me the responsibility of developing

a refresher course in Experimental Physics to improve

lab practice in colleges. Lab practice was in very bad situation.

So I took the help of a young colleague from Goa,

Dr. Priolkar and we initially started in a small way,

we built small electronic circuit using analog

chips, cheap ones for making all measurements.

I learnt electronics at the age of 70 and built these

instruments, and then we developed mechanical items,

and first course was held in Goa in 2001

with about a half a dozen experiments.

We wanted the teachers to wire 3 circuits and take it with them.

They found it very difficult to wire,

they were not used to soldering and so on,

but they did it and they took the wired circuits with them.

They did the experiment.

And because this was course in which they

worked with their hands, there was a lot of enthusiasm.

Prof. Rao: Yeah.

So then, slowly we developed and

we built more and more experiments.

We started with experiments at the B.Sc. level,

then we came to M.Sc. level experiments,

post-M.Sc. level experiments.

By 2010 December,

we had about…we completed 25 courses in different parts of India.

And I found a company in Bangalore to make all the low cost circuits

and equipment to be sold at a price fixed by the academy.

Once the kit came, the demand for the course

grew, and I travelled all over India from Kashmir to Kerala,

Gujarat to Tripura, 9 months to 10 months in a year,

every month for 20 days, I stay at one place, conducted a

refresher course for about 30 teachers,

and then the equipment will be transported to the next place by lorry,

and then I go to the next place, conduct that course,

like this I was doing till 19…2017 February.

I conducted 86 courses.

This was the most popular refresher course.

Experiments went into 150 institutions,

universities, separate institutions, colleges.

Kits were bought by 250 institutions.

Institutions like IIT Madras, IIT Roorkee,

they bought our equipment.

IISER bought our equipment.

I conducted course in IISERs also. Central Universities,

some State University, they have introduced some of the experiments.

Then the academy built a lab for me in Jalahalli,

where they gave me money to buy a thin film unit.

I got a close cycled refrigerator and long term loan from CAT,

where they were developing these refrigerators.

And I do advanced courses and material science in Jalahalli,

because we cannot take these heavy equipment everywhere.

So I developed more advanced circuits,

more advanced experiments.

Total of 55 to 60 experiments I have developed.

In ’87…80…2017 I told them I am 85 years old, travel is very tough for me,

you have to find somebody else to undertake this programme,

and they found Dr. Sundar from

IGCAR Kalpakkam, and he had just retired.

Last one year he has been conducting the courses,

and in July, 100th course will be conducted in Punjab University.

And the president told me, I must bring out the manual

as a book which will be released at the 100th course.

So I prepared I revised the manual, added some appendix to it,

and the book is under publication,

I am correcting the proofs now.

It will be released next month.

So this course came up, was a big success.

Again, you see…my programme succeeded,

but I won’t claim credit for this success.

The only claim I will make is; I take a project,

I put 100 percent effort in it.

But a project I work with, number of colleagues Low Temperature Lab,

I worked with Shankar Narayanan and other students,

they all collaborated with me in developing the Low Temperature Lab.

And Rangarajan was there as a faculty member.

Similarly, in IUC…Professor Siddheshwar Lal

was in charge of administration,

a man who had similar ideas to me,

very quick decision making, very effective.

So we worked together

and his contribution in bringing IUC very great.

Then in Raman Institute, I had colleagues working with me,

academy, I had colleagues working with me.

They all pulled their weight together and that is why

the courses…everything became a success.

So the credit is to be shared by all people…I’ve…

credit doesn’t belong to me.

So what…what…what is your advice to the

younger generation of teachers and researchers?

See, first, I am not such a wise man to give advice.

You, you.

And secondly,

You are a wise man to give…

advice is always sought, but never followed.

So, the only thing I will say is for me, I like to look for

projects which I will enjoy doing and which is

within my ability to do and I succeeded.

This is one way of taking up…any work.

So people have to see…try out whether

this way will work for them.

But there is one thing I have to say.

I believe life is like a relay race. Every generation

runs a part of the relay with the resources available to them,

with their strengths, and with whatever is the social norms,

more values, laws at that time.

So we of the older generation,

we ran the race with whatever resources

were available, whatever wherever chance.

We have handed over the baton to the next generation.

During this time, technological advances have taken place.

They have better resources, better strengths,

social modes have changed, views have changed.

So they will run the race with their resources, their strength,

and their modes, and I think the older generation

must now keep quiet; they should not criticize the younger generation.

They are doing their best.

They will become old,

they will hand over the baton to the next generation.

But the only thing that worries me is, technology is

progressing very, very fast.

But our society is not changing equally fast.

For example, the developments in computer information

technology provide several advantages we…which I

didn’t have 20 years ago.

But it also provides for cyber theft, cybercrimes,

and now society wakes up and it says we must now

make laws to prevent cybercrime.

So society is always one step behind technological advances.

So I don’t know where this will lead.

It may…society may be able to control the advances

so that it is used for good purposes or it may not be able to control.

And what happened to the legendary

Atlantic, may happen to our civilization.

So this is something for concern.

Our society must react to advances in technology equally fast.

This is what I want to say.

So we have two…two questions from Professor Swamy:

one is about back in your IIT days, the visits of Professor Bardeen and

Yeah.

Professor Chandrasekhar.

Professor Bardeen got the Nobel Prize twice.

Once for discovering transistors, and…which revolutionized

semiconductor industry along with Brattain and Shockley.

And the second time, for working out the

theory of superconductivity along with…I forget their name,

two other young people.

Prof. Swamy: Cooper and Schrieffer.

So he came to

Cooper and Schrieffer.

Ah, Schrieffer and Cooper.

So, for 50 years, people didn’t understand how superconductivity arises.

It was Bardeen, Cooper and Schrieffer who provided the first

The BCS.

mechanism to understand how superconductivity arise.

He came to IIT, and he visited our lab also,

gave a talk in the Central Lecture Theatre.

When Nobel laureates come in our field, we feel enthused.

It…it…it gives us a lot…lot more enthusiasm especially works in

superconductivity gives us a lot more enthusiasm to work in the field.

Professor Chandrasekhar is a theoretical astrophysicist.

He had visited IISc when I was a student.

So he visited here.

He was a very good theoretical physicist.

He visited the labs, but his area was totally different from ours, so…

Prof. Swamy: I am asking about the astrophysicist.

Yeah, Chandrasekhar astrophysicist.

So, his area was different.

He has done extraordinarily good work.

He was one of those people for whom the Nobel Prize was delayed.

Prof. Rao: Which part of the…

He was one of those people who will take a problem,

work on it till he completes it to the last INT, then write a book on it,

which will be an authoritative book.

But his work was in an area totally different from ours.

Of course, his work enthused us,

but not to the same extent as Bardeen’s visit.

Can you please tell us about Professor Tatachari?

Yeah, Professor Tatachari was my brother in law.

We were actually Ph.D. students together in IISc.

He worked with Professor G. N. Ramachandran, very brilliant person.

He was not only brilliant in physics, he knew Sanskrit very well,

philosophy very well, he could paint, draw very well,

he could talk authoritatively on art.

Music.

Philosophy and so on.

He went to USA worked in MIT with the Nobel laureate,

then went to Stanford University, and he was working on

Synchrotron Radiation Sources.

So he came to the IIT for 2 years,

and he worked in the Applied Mechanics Department.

At that time, we don’t have synchrotron facility,

so he changed and he worked on

Kirlian photography.

Kirlian photography was that if

you send some high frequency radiation,

you see some halos around the body,

and looking at the strength of the halos,

you can make some…come to some

conclusions about the health of the person.

But one did not know how these photographs arose,

why the high frequency radiation gives the halos.

So when Tatachari came here,

he made systematic investigations on the effect of the

dielectric medium between the high frequency source

and the photographic plate to see what happens to the halos

when you introduce different materials of different dielectric constants.

But this work he did for 2 years,

then he went back and resumed his synchrotron radiation work.

He worked there for another 23 years

and came back to India, to settle in India.

And then he had a bladder problem and he passed away.

But I will say that he was one of the strong influences on my

on me because when I went to IISc, I knew physics,

but I didn’t know anything else.

And I found he was same age as me and his knowledge was so wide.

So I started reading a lot of books and wide…I widened my knowledge.

So he was a great influence on me.

Thank you, sir.

Prof. Swamy: The reason I asked about Professor Tatachari was the Kirlian photography.

Prof. Swamy: Now, there was a lecture given by a neuro-physician

in Chemistry Department somewhere around ‘80s,

he talked about using this radiation, whatever equipment to find out

in Jeeva Samadhis you know, there Jeeva Samadhis all over India.

So he could find out whether the body inside was alive or not.

In fact, he talked about a historical thing

which happened during the First World War.

See, one of the things in the Kirlian photography which

Tatacharya also found was, you take a fresh leaf, you cut it one half,

you remove that one half, put the other half,

you take the photograph, you get the photograph of the full leaf,

the other leaf is not there, but it leaves some imprint.

So how he got that full leaf photograph, he was working on that,

but then he went back.

So he went back to his old work on synchrotron radiation.

Prof. Swamy: In fact, I think he guided one or two students for M.Tech., Applied Mechanics

He worked with the…in the Electrical Engineering Department

Prof. Swamy: Yeah.

using their high frequency…say, setup.

Prof. Swamy: Thank you.

So, Professor R. S. what are your other interests?

See, my other interests

Other than science and that.

See, I like to read a lot of books on…

my interest is in history, especially ancient history,

like Greek history, Roman history, Persian history and so on,

I don’t like to read history as a series of dates and wars.

I want to read about the life of the people,

what were the forces which caused the war or whatever it is.

So, I have read translations, Herodotus.

Yes.

Histories in English translation, Thucydides, Peloponnesian War.

I have read all Greek plays by Euripides,

Sophocles, Aeschylus, Agam…Aristophanes in English,

and I have read Roman history, Tacitus Annals all this I have read.

I like to read psychology, parapsychology,

and psychology I have read Rhine’s book on parapsychology.

I also…I am interested in cricket.

So…I used to play cricket, but I am interested very much in cricket.

When India plays, I watch all the matches even

now, with great interest and enthusiasm.

(Indistinct off-screen voice)

Then, I used to listen to Carnatic music.

Prof. Rao: Carnatic music, okay.

But now I can’t, because my hearing is bad.

Telling stories to grandchildren [laughter].

And then I like to gather small children, and then

when…when I am with children, I become a child.

My imagination soars… I tell them,

I make my own characters and tell them lots of stories.

Yesterday, Professor Manoharan’s daughter, she was

asking me about a story I told her when she was a

small child, about a magician; Egyptian magician whom I named

Go Gapasha who lived for 1000 years ago.

So that story became very famous among

the children in Lake View Road [laughter].

So this is what I do.

So Professor R. S., now one last question,

but it is the most important one.

See

We’d like to know about .

my wife has been a tremendous support to me.

If I had married somebody else then I am sure she

would have divorced me, because I used to spend all the time in the lab.

I will go home at 5 O’clock or 6 O’clock,

have dinner, come back to the lab. Go back at 11.

I never took any interest in household affairs.

My children were all brought up by her, their schooling;

which school they attended, everything was done by her.

I didn’t even know what my bank account was.

She was managing everything.

Left me free to do my work.

She was a very good artist, she was trained in Kalakshetra,

in traditional Tanjore Paintings. She did beaten copper work,

and she will make huge rangoli,

it will take 30 days to make the rangoli,

8 hours a day, but she has done it along with Vasudevan’s wife,

my sister-in-law. So she has her own interest.

So, what she will be doing…her painting, and I do my science.

But we have a very good understanding.

So, our life has been extremely pleasant and

I would not have been able to do any of these things,

but for the support which she extended to me.

She has been tremendous moral and physical support to me.

My children are very much more attached to the

mother than to me because she

looked after them completely, whereas

I was taking care…the lab was my child [laughter].

So I was there in the lab all the time.

I had very good relations with all my students.

See, all of them are occupying top positions now,

but they still have a lot of affection for me and I am very grateful to them.

And I am very grateful to 2 institutions in the country: IISc Bangalore,

which developed my confidence that I can do research on my own,

And IIT Madras, which gave me a chance to grow.

I think the IIT Madras is a first rate institution and

it will grow stronger and stronger in

coming years. That is my wish for IIT Madras.

Ma’am, would you like to say one word about Professor R. S.? No?

I only say that the Physics Department was our

home was…it was to them like another home.

So they…that is why…that is how we had this bonding.

So you had…as he said, two children, and the third child was

Professor R. S. himself, you took care.

Yes, yes, yes [laughter].

Very…nice talk.

Very good bonding we have.

Prof. Swamy: Can I…sorry. Now that you talked about IIT Madras,

Yeah.

Prof. Swamy: you must be knowing that IIT Madras has received the first position.

Yeah, I saw that,

and I am very proud of that.

See, the IIT Madras has grown so much and so well, under…

see after I left, ‘90, the growth is enormous in the IIT Madras.

Prof. Swamy: Sir, I have one small doubt; in the sup…in the Low Temperature

Prof. Swamy: Lab, you said you were working with Professor Subbarao,

Prof. Swamy: what was the highest temperature…

Prof. Swamy: I am sorry for the lowest where you have observed super conductivity?

No, in IIT Madras, we can go down to 1.8 k.

No, he is talking about the…

Highest temperature, oh, you want highest temperature.

Prof. Swamy: No, no, no, I am asking about superconductivity.

Tc, Tc.

Tc. You know, the highest Tc in superconductors is

140 k for mercury compound, thallium compound under pressure.

We didn’t study that compound.

We have studied thallium, barium compound

where the temperature is around 100 k.

Professor R. S, I…I made the mercury compound

You made this, yeah.

which showed a drop at 140 k.

So, about 100 k. I think Sankaranarayan

will remember better than me.

Prof. Swamy: No, just the metallic ones, how much did you go

Prof. Swamy: when you were working with IGCAR and all that?

The conventional one.

You see.

The conventional.

We started with 90 k samples and went up to something like 114 k.

No, sir, the low Tc.

Prof. Swamy: Metal, Metal.

The conventional ones, metal ones.

Yeah, low Tc,

temperatures the maximum low Tc materials,

maximum temperature predicted on

25.

BCS theory will be about 25 to 30 k.

Prof. Swamy: Yeah.

So, when the high Tc came, BCS theory is not complete.

Yeah, yeah.

So there is a new mechanism for high Tc

superconductivity. Nobody knows what the mechanism is till today.

People are working on it, but no final theory has been established.

Prof. Swmay: Now, why I am asking is, Professor Subbarao,

Prof. Swamy: the compounds he was working on,

Prof. Swamy: now, he was originally not working on those compounds.

Prof. Swamy: In fact, he was asking me, “Why don’t you start?”

Prof. Swamy: Because we were working on something like that.

Prof. Swamy: I just want to tell you, that in 1980 itself, we tried to

Prof. Swamy: predict that we have got copper in 3 plus oxidation state,

Prof. Swamy: I could not prove it. So, I just went to Germany,

Prof. Swamy: I asked some…I came back to Professor C. N. R. Rao,

Prof. Swamy: I couldn’t get help from him, but then only one professor;

Prof. Swamy: Professor Hagen Müller.

Prof. Swamy: When I told him, “This is what we were looking for,”

Prof. Swamy: and I told him what the systems were doing,

Prof. Swamy: he just made a remark, “You should have got a Nobel Prize.”

[laughter].

Prof. Swamy: Not, not, that it is a joke.

Prof. Swamy: I wonder why he made that…because now that you tell me

Prof. Swamy: that nobody has understood the mechanism,

Prof. Swamy: so, I can very well see why he must have

Prof. Swamy: told this, because nobody has understood this.

Yeah, the reason is several…see,

it is known, it is not the lattice vibrations

Prof. Swamy: Yeah, yeah.

which caused the pairing of the electrons.

Then they looked for other mechanisms.

Prof. Swamy: Correct.

One is, you see resonating valence bond like in benzene.

So this theory was put forward by Anderson.

There’s another theory; spin fluctuations.

See, the electron has a spin.

It will interact with spin fluctuation that may be responsible.

It looks like spin fluctuation theory may be the correct one,

but there is no final agreement on the…what is the correct theory so far.

Prof. Swamy: And there is no chance of getting a room temperature, so.

Yeah.

I think there is still chance.

Two high Tc materials,

but see when high Tc was discovered, people thought we

can make room temperature superconductor.

If we know how high Tc materials…what is the mechanism,

we may be able to make room temperature, we don’t know still.

Prof. Swamy: Thank you, sir.

Thank you, Professor R. S. for this

Thank you.

wonderful enlightening discussion.

I really appreciate your time.

Thank you, very much. Namaste, ma’am.

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Prof. V.G.K. Murti and Prof. Sankaran in conversation with Prof. V. Jagadeesh Kumar

My name is Jagadeesh Kumar;

I am a professor in the department of Electrical Engineering.

I have with me Professor Sankaran

who is also professor of electrical engineering retired and

Professor V G K Murti again former Professor at IIT Madras;

he also occupied the positions of

head of the department of electrical engineering

and Dean Academic Research at IIT Madras.

Sir, you are the second faculty to join electrical engineering?

No, not really when I joined, there were already three others.

Three.

Professor Venkata Rao head of the department

and Ramaswami joined a few months earlier, and Dravid, N. V. Dravid.

Oh.

Associate Lecturer. We were then he became a lecturer.

Incidentally he is the uncle of our Rahul Dravid.

Oh.

It can help there.

And also Thathachar.

Thathachar joined little later.

Yes, little later.

At the time when I joined these three were there already.

Thathachar, Professor Sampath and T.A.R Bhat joined a few months later.

So, at that time the department was functioning out of BSB.

Yeah, that was the first year

when the Institute faculty moved into the campus.

First 2 years I think they were operating from the AC College and elsewhere.

And so that was the 61, 62 is the first academic year

when the whole Institute moved into the campus.

So, I joined in August,

the session already commenced in July or near about.

Therefore, I joined in the first year on the campus,

but a few months later.

And hostels were functioning, but there are no staff quarters.

As a matter of fact when I….

It is called Officers Hostel. Taramani House is called Officers Hostel.

Oh yeah that was built much later.

That was built much later.

The first day I came to join the Institute,

I remember that very vividly now.

It was all a jungle and then I started at the gate

and said how far is the building?

He said go it will be within walking distance

that man that watchman told me, then I started walking.

It was all jungle it was a very very narrow kaccha road.

Hardly I could see, no I did not see anybody for a long time

and then here and there are some NBCC

National Building Construction Company

they some of those workers who are I met them

and they also said you go in the same direction it was clearer 2 miles way.

I thought I lost my way, but finally,

I found something here some life here.

And then everybody was talking about BSB,

BSB all the departments were in BSB.

Some workshops buildings were there

and they are not really produced for workshop

maybe carpentry and some things like that,

which are needed for the first two years.

The store section, the engineering section,

various other departments were out in the workshop.

But all the academic departments were functioning from the BSB.

So, when was ESB actually built?

When we were in BSB the building construction began

and we moved into the ESB in 1962,

but the building was being built all around us.

Oh.

So, we were in the ground floor,

but we saw the scaffolding in all sides

and then upper floors were being built and so on.

But the Southern side that particular wing was more or less complete.

So, that was in 1962.

Padmanabha Iyer was the person who was ruling the place?

Padmanabha Iyer yes, Padmanabha Iyer came from Indian Institute of Science.

He is the foreman.

So, he set up most of the lab in the beginning.

Sir, how many German professors were there in the

electrical department at that time?

At that time there were none.

There were none.

65 Meyer.

You know what the first German professor was

I think was Zeinecke. Zeinecke.

Yes but

but yeah.

Zeinecke was not a professor at that time.

He joined associate professor I think yeah.

right.

Probably so, Probably so.

Meyer was the joined as professor.

Meyer came later.

Both of them were from Braunschweig?

Meyer was from Braunschweig, Zeinecke I do not know.

Zeinecke was from somewhere in the middle of Germany. Not Braunschweig.

Yeah, he should know better.

No, no.

And Professor Beslich.

Beslich from communication department, he came later.

And then Holtz.

Sir.

Holtz. Holtz.

Holtz. Holtz. H O L T Z.

And Rutloh. Rutloh is it?

Rutloh.

Rutloh for high voltage?

High voltage.

High voltage. Rutloh.

And they came, but they were all there for a brief period,

the persons who are there for a long time were Zeinecke,

Professor Meyer and Holtz.

Holtz.

Holtz. And there were also some technicians

who came and setup the Electronics Centre, Central Electronic Centre.

Do you remember the name, the names of who setup the CEC?

Racop. Racop is one.

Racop yes.

Racop is one, but Racop was preceded by some gentleman

which starts with B. I forget the name.

What is his name?

Somebody came for high voltage.

Rutloh.

high voltage.

Rutloh high voltage?

No, no, but the Central Electronic Centre was started by somebody else,

Rutloh came later. I mean, Racop came later. There was also a D. V. Bop.

Bop came here much later for the television lab.

He came in late 70s or early 80s. Bop.

one person who used to have up to this neck and wear full sleeves.

Maybe Bop.

I thought he was Bop maybe.

Bop. Maybe Bop.

Sir, the first batch of students, what was the strength at that time?

Electrical or whole put together?

Electrical.

40?

Around 40 or so.

But, yeah we used to call them high current and high low current.

Heavy current, light current.

Heavy current and light current.

Light current. That was the designation.

It was called in Germany in Braunschweig and ‘Schwachstrom’.

That is why it is called heavy current and light current.

I think 15 in each if I remember, right.

Sir?

15 each perhaps in the first batch.

Electrical itself?

No?

What this the doubt?

The first batch of Electrical.

In the first batch the numbers of students is only 20 in each.

Total.

In each batch there are 20.

In each batch there are 20. Ok.

Each batch 20.

Sir, how many?

100.

20 each. 20 each. And..

Srinivasan.

Yeah.

Whom we called ‘Computer Srinivasan’ was mechanical department right?

Yes.

He was mechanical department.

Yeah, only thing is I had lot of contact with the mechanical students

because I taught Electrical Technology for them.

Ok.

And for the first batch of electricals, I did teach at few courses,

but not such intimate contact with them.

The curriculum was already in place when you joined? Or..

Yeah, it was, I think before, well before I joined,

I think there was a committee that was appointed by Professor Sengupto.

Madras Committee.

No, the Curriculum Committee.

And they drafted the curriculum and syllabus that was,

at that time, it was for 5 years, a 5 year program.

And the first two years they had a lot of workshop

and that was a specialty which we used to claim that

IIT Madras people are very skilled with their hands

they have two years of intensive workshop.

And the specialization began only in the 3rd year onwards.

It was quite interesting; that means, the first two years,

I think, one week they did workshop and one week they had the academic program.

Ok.

So, one week right from morning till evening they used to do workshop.

For a complete day?

Complete day.

Sir, when did research actually start?

Well, I mean these things we cannot have.

sharp boundaries cannot be put in, but as far as I, engineering is concerned.

Broadly, I think during Professor Sengupto’s time

most of the effort went into the building of the laboratory,

establishment of labs and building the infrastructure.

And I think he did a very remarkable job.

Active research, I think, began with Professor Ramachandran’s time.

That was.. he came around 1969 or about 70.

67 end I thought.

67. 67. End of 67.

Because first the infrastructure was developed

and Ramachandran also introduced some curricular reforms.

Like he did away with the 1 year long courses

and introduced a semester pattern.

And he also introduced the.

Electives he introduced or not?

Electives yeah. That is the 5 year semester pattern came along with electives.

And it is he who also introduced the MS course by research.

That was his innovation because coming from IAST

where they had the degree with that background

he felt that is a good thing to do and yeah

Professor Ramachandran’s tenure I think is the beginning of research.

So, the Ph.D. as a course started at that time?

Yeah, Ph.D. was there even earlier I think,

even in the science department there were Ph.D.s.

Ph.D. program as such was on the cards right,

even during Prof. Sengupto’s time.

As a matter of fact, the first two Ph.D.s

from our Electrical Engineering department

I think they finished it during Professor Sengupto’s time.

B Ramaswamy and Seshadri.

Seshadri.

Seshadri. Seshadri. So faculty could register.

Both are your students?

No no no no no.

Professor Ramaswamy is the supervisor of Professor Venkata Rao.

And.

Seshadri?

Seshadri allowed me to put my name as his supervisor

and did the all the work himself.

Sir, when did you joined IIT Madras?

63 July 18th.

Yeah. 63 I can vouch for but July 18th I do not know maybe.

But I got leave in the morning from Guindy College

and joined in the afternoon at IIT,

because at that time in IIT if you get a seat,

if you get a placement,

if you get a position it was supposed to be very high in those days.

Sir initially your positions were associate lecturer?

Yeah, the..

Lecturer, senior lecturer.

No.

No senior lecture.

They had the associate lecturer that is the first faculty position

and then the lecturer then assistant professor and professor.

Associate professor also was not there at that time.

Introduced somebody if yeah,

because there were some people

whom they did not want to give ‘lecturer’ post or ‘professor’ post to.

So, they made them associate professors.

Yes sir? Is it true? No words.

Naturally if you have both of these,

both positions open those who cannot…

Yes, those who are not…

Who apply for professor’s post and then do not get it.

Yes exactly.

Yeah. So Professor and myself where two people..

Professor Venugopal, I think, was the first

associate professor for the whole institute,

I think, if I remember right.

So, initially there were only electrical, civil and mechanical.

Metallurgy.

Oh, metallurgy was also there.

Metallurgy, chemical.

Started started.

Yes started yes.

Started from there.

Yeah.

So, aerospace and…

Yeah that started a little later. Yeah.

EGR was the first metallurgy professor?

EGR yes was the first.

TH Ramachandran was in the department as Assistant Professor

as the head of the department. Professor EGR came

and he was the became the head of the department.

Thank you.

Associate Professors he was there

with Professor Venugopal and Professor Achuthan.

Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.

And you were also made members of the senate.

That is right.Yeah right.

Yeah that is why you are the first member

of the senate to complete 25 years.

Remember 6, 35 years of senate membership you only did it.

Yeah, I think it is Professor Ramachandran who..

When he became the Director

he said you should hire Associate Professors also.

Also

could be members of the senate that is right that is right

And surprisingly I remember one incident.

Three of us were called to the Paris Corner,

Paris House Paris Corner their office

H.V.R. Iengar was the Chairman of the board.

So, we were the process of being upgraded to

upgraded to Professor’s post

we all went Achuthan, myself and Venugopal

in suit and tie and so on.

The receptionist thought

we were also Selection Committee Members said,

“Please go in sir”.

Then we had to tell her that

we are not Selection Committee Members, we are candidates.

So, then their tone completely changed and they said,

“Please take your seat there”.

And when we entered the room the Selection Committee

had already met and Professor H.V.R. Iengar

is a very nice gentleman.

He said, “Gentleman we have decided to make you professors

now the interview starts.

So, please be at ease, please be at ease let us discuss something.

What do you think of industry and institute collaboration.”?

So we, the industry and institute collaboration started in 1993

No.

In formal way.

Not in 1993, it was.

RGM became the Dean

Yeah, they used to have deans for various divisions.

Professor Incharge, yeah.

He was the Dean, industrial consultancy and continuing education,

I think, both of them were combined,

I think, Professor RGM was in charge

and then in evolving plans for the Institute

they thought there was a need for a trust-industry collaboration

and the Germans promised lot of aid for that,

including one professor deputed for the purpose to stay

and setup this Centre.

That was in 1970.

77 or there about.

ICSR in 73; 73 ICSR.

73 or 70.

73 it started, Wagner you know.

Wagner, yeah, Wagner came and at that time I was put as in charge,

Professor in-charge of industrial consultancy.

So, I worked with Wagner for a couple of years and.

There was one gentleman called Wagener.

Who is that?

Wagener.

Wagner.

There was Wagner separate and Wagener there were two.

Oh ok ok ok.

Don’t remember.

Yeah.

It entered into my mind.

Yeah.

Most likely I’m wrong.

So, that was when the ICSR was set up.

It was called not ICSR, that time it used to be called

ICC Industrial Consultancy Center.

And later on it became ICSR

because the sponsor research became a very heavy component

of the total consultancy activities.

So, that was when it was a renamed as ICSR.

The ICC used to function from the top floor of the BSB.

When the first computer center started.

Yes.

Did we have courses in the electrical engineering

curriculum teaching computers to the students

or did we introduce them much later?

I think there were hardly any at that time.

We had 16-20 do we have sir.

We used to go somewhere to?

Yeah. See, we did not have a computer at all in the Institute.

Ok.

And our faculty members who were doing research

which needed acomputer used to go to Guindy Engineering College

with their papers.

Punch cards.

Punch cards and then taken them right,

I remember Professor Sankaran and others used to go there.

If the card one of them is replaced,

it will or rather if it gets interchanged once

we go on getting blank cards of output.

Ok.

He is right.

When did the Institute actually start becoming self-contained?

Because in the beginning many faculty stayed outside.

When I came in I know Professor Radhakrishna

was coming from outside.

Quite a few faculty were coming from Adyar and Saidapet.

Some chose to stay in Adyar

because of probably children’s education

whatever it is, but about 60-80 percent of the faculty

started living here from 64, 65 onwards.

Professor Swamy I think.

Why did the large number is there?

Large number is there yeah.

Sir, 63 only you are were there on campus.

I was there, I came in 62 or so.

A sloped road.

It was a sloped road.

Top the first floor and left side.

Yeah, C. C 1 type.

C 1 type.

That was a special ah...

Can I say something about C 1 type?

Sure sir this is..

Yeah ok.

No holds bar.

Ok sure.

If you want to criticize..

And this is only recording of old memories.

Yeah.

I mean I think I have a few things to say probably about

Professor Sengupto, our first Director.

He was very remarkable person

and I had a run in with him on a number of occasions,

but still I admire him and he is the, I think,

Institute owe a lot to him.

He used to take personal care

about every little thing in the campus,

every little thing in the campus and he used to refer

to them in a very possessive tone,

“my faculty, my head of the department, my students”

and everything would be his.

His. And he put lot of energy into everything he did

and one of his priced designs was the C 1 type,

it seems he designed that layout of your C 1 quarters

and that used to be really very convenient

and I know some people who joined there as lecturer in

C 1 type and would not leave it even after they became professors.

They stuck to C 1 type.

And so, and then this gentleman is very informal also,

he used to come and one evening he came to visit one of his,

one of our neighbors who was a Bengali and he probably,

he came for a social visit.

Then he dropped in our house.

He said, “How are you doing, how is the set up,

how is the quarters”?

Young man I was, I was not very, probably, prudent or diplomatic.

Yes.

I said I mean this, there used to be a small room.

Room.

I said probably one could have built a shelf here,

built-in shelf to keep books because it is a study room.

I could see that he was very much upset.

Upset.

Of course I said it is a very..

the set up is very nice very convenient,

because if I had altered the two remarks,

change the sequence, it have been alright.

Yeah.

But, he is a very nice person and then he,

but immediately he would get offended

if you say something inward, but…

Bibhuti Bhushan right sir?

Bibhuti Bhushan yeah.

Sengupto.

Once I had, I think this was my first year or so, 1962.

Guindy Engineering College asked me to come as an

external examiner for some practical examinations.

Normally we need to get permission and then I sent a letter.

Then Professor Sengupto called me and said,

“What happens to your lectures here”?

Sir, it is on 3 days, only 1 day I have lectures

and then I have made alternative arrangements”.

“Young man if you concentrate on...

Yeah.

..going as an examiner elsewhere then what happens to this”?

is what he was said. I said,

“Sir, we call them for their faculty as external examiners for,

for our own examinations.

So, we must reciprocate”.

He said ok, then he said ok,

but please don’t indulge in this too much.

So, the Gajendra circle.

Yes.

I mean when the design started was it by the first director? No?

Yes. Yes, it was.

I think it was done at the time of the first convocation in 64.

60s or 64?

64 first convocation.

Yeah.

I think Y.S. Ramaswamy, the Superintending Engineer

the Institute’s Superintending Engineer at that time,

I think he was the perhaps the architect.

Architect.

Yes.

With convocation you are top of the first convocation addressed.

Address it is going to yeah.

Yeah Germanic, but the Gajendra circle also

was built around the same time I think.

No, earlier 62, Luebke inaugurated the IIT foundation stone of IIT.

Yeah, but at the time the Gajendra circle was there? I doubt.

Y.S. Ramaswamy was there.

Ok.

OAT was built and..

OAT they laid the corner stone and.

And when the OAT was built, when first convocation was held.

I mean 1962.

So, Ramaswamy and Seshadri together took the degree to

Electrical Department at the first convocation right?

Yes.

For the very first convocation both of them took PhD.

May not be first convocation.

No not.

No.

Not the first convocation.

First convocation is 64.

64.

Not the first convocation.

Yeah.

Sir I believe the first computers came from the USA.

First?

Computers on campus.

There was an analog computer and ..

Yeah.

German computer I think which came from

in the year 1962 or so, is that right?

You see we had a small analog computer in the,

which came from Germany.

That was in the department.

That was in the electrical department

and then the Brooklyn Polytechnic Institute

they had a big analog computer built with walls vacuum cubes,

huge affair and they have no use for it anymore they had.

So, they thought it is a,

I mean they can give it as a gift to some Indian Institute and.

So, Professor Sampath was deputed to go there

and then bring that computer over here.

So, that was the second US computer.

That is the US computer which you have probably talked about.

There is a picture here.

You could tell us.

Yeah.

No.

Sir he is Professor Sampath.

Yeah.

Is this what Professor Sampath got as a gift?

Yes, as a gift yeah and it was so huge I believe..

Yeah.

That he when they did not know how to

move it out of the room.

So, they have to dismantle a section of the wall and then..

Drop it down.

Drop it down and then build it.

Was this computer used for

teaching purposes or what was done basically?

It was used for yes teaching purposes still.

I do not if you had two computers in.

Yeah.

department.

Yes Yeah.

This was all built with wall so.

Sir, This was our Building Sciences Block itself.

Sorry HSB HSB adjacent to the Central Lecture Theatre.

This used to be in, for a long time,

in one of the lecture halls in the ground floor.

Central HSB.

ESB.

Yeah.

Central central ESB.

Yeah, as I remember the.

C Subramaniam has come there

C Subramaniam is there.

C Subramaniam has come there for the inauguration of the

Computer Centre when we had the CDC

computer first computer, that Mahabala was the.

That is the IBM.

IBM computer.

IBM.

IBM computer IBM computer.

Yes.

At one point..

Yeah, that was the Professor Mahabala.

The department had a.

Sir.

DEC machine also PDP 11.

Yeah that.

Yes.

Those were also.

Sir.

No that was much later when I came.

That was later, that was much later.

When I came…

Sir the rightmost person is.

That is Chandy. Chandy.

Chandy.

Chandy is Chairman of the Board of Governors, this is Mahabala.

This is Mahabala.

So, I in fact, when I came to the department

there was still analogous to the control and.

Sir who is to the right of right of?

That is Erhard that Erhard Eppler.

Right.

Yeah, Eppler Eppler Minister for Cooperation Federal Republic of Germany.

Pratapa Reddy was the person who was handling the.

Sir, where is Professor Mahabala now? Bangalore or?

Must be Bangalore.

Sir how about the other roles that you have played,

other than academic roles were you in

wardenships of hostels or were you in charge of?

No.

Student activities of any kind.

He was used to be in the club.

I was a president in staff.

I was a president in staff club for one term and

of course, the various roles I had.

Twice you were head of the department?

Only once.

Only once?

That was in a.

Sir, is that Menon?

Here this one you remember Menon, know you see that.

Yeah.

This is Menon.

Second one.

Or first one.

Yeah, that is Menon.

Yeah.

I am not still.

Not sure I am not sure.

Who is that professor?

I am not sure who it is. I do not know.

Sir I think it is Menon

computer, communication department, communication sections.

Possibly, possibly, yeah.

What else did I do right?

I was also in charge of

CEC for sometime Centre Electronic Centre and.

Then, Dean Academic Research.

Professor Ramachandran asked me,

“I see your name you did not figure in the as a warden of the hostel.

So, would you like to become”?

I said no. Then he said “Ok. I respect your decision”.

Yeah, till which year were you in IIT?

When did you retire?

I retired in 93, October but of course,

I continued till the end of the academic year that was 94.

Then I came back in 96

as an emeritus ASTT fellow.

So, I continued for two more years.

Sir there was supposed to have been

science fair associated with the

cultural week and Mardi Gras at one time.

No.

There used to be an open house.

What is called an open house,

I remember two of them

that was the during Indiresan’s time

I think it was started,

Professor Indiresan when he was the Director

he started that and

two open house programs and..

One open house was started when Indiresan joined.

One was Pandalai’s time correct,

first one was Pandalai’s time.

Pandalai’s time.

Pandalai we have, Pandalai was there yeah.

Then cultural program Mardi Gras.

So.

It was given some other name earlier, remember?

No now it is known as Saarang.

Now, it is Saarang, Mardi Gras was the first one.

When was it started?

I do not know sir I do not know.

Probably.

1970.

I think Pandalai was Director at that.

No.

Pandalai was Director I think.

When I came it was known 73 or 74

yeah, but Mardi Gras in the 70s 73 or 74,

But earlier there was a cultural week, I understand in 62 or..

Sir was Pandalai in 74 Director?

Yeah Professor Pandalai was the director in 74.

Yeah, I think at that time the name Mardi Gras was given.

Ok.

And he first objected to it.

As for the, you talked about examinations and all that.

Well Ramachandran of course, he introduced the semester pattern.

I think Professor Indiresan,

he was the person who introduced lot of reforms. For example..

Student.

He made sure of yeah, electives.

Student.

teachers by student.

Student evaluation and then class committees to review

the results and then do any kind of moderation

that we like to have,

and doing away with external examinations

which are for except for the M.S. and Ph.D. M.Tech. degrees.

So, he introduced lot of reforms.

So that your results came out in quick time

immediately after the examinations. So.

within a week or so.

Yeah.

One week after the last exam the result should come out as a rule.

and so, examination reforms it is a very notable point

and which were for say due to Professor Indiresan.

Sir what was your experience of being a campus resident

in the sense that you are away from the

main city itself because I think Chennai was smaller than.

Actually I think that the results in the campus

are the best form best part of my service in IIT.

Yes sir, will you tell us about that?

You see we had everything that we wanted.

What all the good things that you can get

in the outside the city metropolis are available here.

Once in a way we used to go out

just for the fun of shopping or eating outside,

but everything else is here and then

it is like a Tapovana right,

the tranquility affairs Tapovana with the campus of a city

both with enjoyed the best of both worlds.

Right.

And so, I think I always tell anybody

whom I meet I mean talked about IIT campus

living is the best part of our service in IIT.

The Open Air Theater was the binding factor

I think every week you met practically..

Yes.

on campus. So,

Yes Sunday movies I mean Saturday movies we used to go

and then cultural programs and so on.

Little language movies.

Little.

At the time of any festival.

Yeah.

Holy was a ritual celebration that.

Once I remember when J. Krishnamurti

was giving a talk in the Open Air Theater.

Yeah, that time.

We were sitting in the step there one side,

M.S. Subbulakshmi came and sat on at the steps.

Yes.

And then it took some time for people to notice

and then somebody came gently

and escorted her to a seat in the front.

See that is an important point.

There have been lots of VIP visitors on campus.

Yes, lot VIP visitors inside.

Yeah. So, can

Ok, we used do, another good thing that

Professor Indiresan did is extramural lectures.

So, a number of luminaries in different fields used to,

were invited to give lectures and as a Dean academic,

was Dean research I had a role to play to receive them,

some of them and then escort them and so on.

So, in that capacity I have met quite a few of luminaries.

Sonal Mansingh dancers.

Dancers.

Then R. K. Laxman.

Yes.

R. K. Laxman he was a he said somebody asked him

with your all your cartoons and all these we could have

formed much better if you had gone abroad.

Then he said “No, raw material is here for my cartoons.

Where can I get this kind of raw material elsewhere?

So, he is and so, he was very nice and then Kirloskar

that Kirloskar the.. this.. what is forget the name.

Ramaswamy Cho Ramaswamy.

Cho Ramaswamy, P Subramaniam came

in a couple of occasions C Subramaniam.

I saw him now only.

And the lander who went on top of Everest. Hillary.

Hillary Hillary.

We know he was here.

Sir John Hillary?

Edmund Hillary.

Edmund Hillary came.

Yeah.

He was a New Zealand High Commissioner in India at that time.

Yes yeah.

So, he was asked and he gave a talk

about the Himalayan Institute which was running.

Professor Bardeen also came.

Professor Bardeen was a visiting professor

Professor Bardeen Nobel laureate in twice in physics,

but the extraordinary lectures brought a number of people

to the campus and then

it was very nice occasion for the people to.

They were initiated by Professor Indiresan.

Yes, the program was initiated by Professor Indiresan.

And he arranged a slot in one afternoon.

Wednesday.

Free the time table.

Ok.

Yeah, you were there anyway.

The classes used to be suspended.

Yes.

And that particular 2 hours.

2 hours, yes.

What about other visitors to the department itself

well you have any

yeah Professor Bardeen was see Professor Bardeen.

others not only engineering department.

Bardeen came for physics department not electrical department.

Ok.

Professor Ramasastry invited him and he came.

Professor Pauling came earlier.

But he also like he gave a..

In chemistry.

Chemistry lecture.

He is another double Nobel laureate

in peace and chemistry I think.

Some notable right..

Golding is one professor from who wrote a

classic book called Electrical Measurement, he visited once.

E. W. Golding yeah.

E. W. Golding.

Were you playing tennis in the campus sir?

No.

You did not play tennis?

I used to play the ping pong.

Oh yeah.

Very badly and bridges, bridge sometimes.

You used to play in the Staff Club almost everyday.

Yeah, I used to, I used to play bridge.

Sankaran used to play tennis I think.

Yeah.

He played for some time.

Tennis and of course, my wife used to say

I will take the tennis court,

but keep it there and go play bridge. My wife

Was there interaction between the students

and the staff in terms of bridge play and game.

Yes.

culture of bridge

Yes, they used to have some ..

I remember one occasion when the students invited for their

some hostel tournament and then a team was sent

from the staff club and our people won.

So, there used to have some..

Was it the 70s that this Bridge activity peaked?

Yeah 70s.

Tournaments used to be held in the two rooms and the HSB.

Yes and even in that shed Ladies Club,

used to be Ladies Club

I do not know what it is called now.

They used to have some Bridge tournaments there.

One interaction I remember

I think just when you are talking about

this I am reminded of this in 1973.

I think there was a strike,

remember Professor Swamy?

What in that?

There was this employee strike.

Ah yeah yeah.

Yeah, that was in 1973 or 74

due to some hostel problems

all the non faculty employees went on strike.

Yeah.

That was a very tense period because the

others, they did not want to shut down the hostels.

So, the hostels had to run and the staff members

stayed on the campus and so,

there was a lot of interaction between the students

and the faculty at that time

when the students used to help

in the running of the

and then faculty members used to

invite the students to their houses for..

Yeah yes.

Dinner or lunch or what case it may be

and then the students used to take the milk carts

and then supply to the faculty

and some of us used to

run around and the circuit breakers

which used to trip now and then

all around keep the electricity system going.

very nice.

And it was period of tension

at the same time there was some kind of.

Bonding.

Bonding between these students staff that was.

How long did this go on?

About.

10 days.

About a week to 10 days.

Police was called. In the end police was called.

Police were called, I think that was a interesting thing.

That was.

They used to throw arrows

from one hostel to another hostel. Yeah.

Who? Students?

Fighting between hostels used to go on.

No..ok that period.

How..the nature on our campus is

one of the highlights of our IIT Madras.

How was it when you joined?

That is, is it true that area around the ESB

was quiet bare at that time?

Now it is full of trees.

Can you recollect how it was?

When it was built what was it like?

No at the back of ESB there used to have a big Banyan tree

and in the front we had those

shaded trees it was there all the time.

No sir. What he is asking is,

do you remember I think we have to be joined only

between the ESB and MSB in fact,

one night we had a dinner where all the students

and faculties were all together.

Yeah, but true.

Yeah.

Bushes were clear bushes were clear

the big trees were there all the time

big trees were there all the time.

And the in the organization in the beginning,

again in Professor Sengupto’s time this was set up

the Central Milk Supply Scheme was started

professor by Professor Sengupto

because earlier they used the local

milk supply people used to bring their cows

and then used to deliver milk at their houses.

I mean in the very in the very beginning in the very beginning.

Bring the.

In the very.

Bring the cows and milk our house.

And with their usual tricks

and all with water and all those things I mean.

Then.

Ramana Murthy.

There was one gentleman

named Professor Ramana Murthy.

Yeah.

In the physics department

he did yeoman service for the establishment of the

hostels and common facilities for the faculty and students.

So, he negotiated with a number of

local milk supply vendors and then

he arranged to have the cows

and all brought it to shed there

and then the milk procured and also negotiated,

supplemented by the government.

Government right.

Government and. So, he also made sure that

we purchased the commodities required for

various hostels in bulk and then Institute's.

So that the prices the rates can come down.

So, this was all due to Ramana Murthy.

Sir in fact, there was an

arm of IIT called the Central Supplies.

Yes.

Supplies only CS.

CS Central Supplies.

That was the birth of that.

That was the birth of that yes.

So, I have one more specific question

about the campus itself.

See I think behind those trees

it was a barbed wire fence I think,

that the tennis courts beyond

between the tennis courts and..

what is that avenue called?

Velachery side.

There is I think there was a

used to be a barbed wire fence.

There was a fence.

But there were lot of breaches

I mean fence was there.

Yes.

But people used to go under or above and all.

So, what was the Velachery like at that time?

I mean were there lots of inhabitants there or

was it a bare land?

Beyond that.

Yes, around the time of ?

Comparatively barren perhaps,

but it is not really devoid of any.

There were some trees and bushes and all that is,

but that extent is up to the wall.

Velachery that separates Velachery think

there used to be probably less

there used to be less vegetation than here.

There used to be gate near Brahmaputra hostel right

that is very from where the people

will enter from the village and go to this side.

Yeah, there Brahmaputra.

we have difficulty in identifying the number of.

People there.

Situations and people.

Yeah.

If you could help us it would be great.

This is Vasudevan.

This is Vasudevan yes.

Professor VGK, MV. Who is center person?

Baron von Mirbach, Baron von Mirbach.

Baron von Mirbach.

Ok.

Was he Ambassador?

Probably. VIP that is what is put.

This is Varadacharya.

Varadacharya.

T. Varadacharya?

K. S. Varadacharya.

T. S. Varadacharya.

T S Varadacharya, T S Varadacharya

he was a senior technical assistant in our lab.

And who was that sitting there?

Sitting there is T. S. Varadacharya.

Very very good gentleman.

Is that a potentiometer?

DC potentiometer.

That is a DC potentiometer.

With all that PRO type of a cover.

This is Pauling.

Professor Pauling.

Linus Pauling.

Is it Ly n i a u s or L i.

How do you spell Linus Pauling? L i n i s n u s.

L i

L y I think it was put there.

It’s a mistake. Yes.

one by one. So, direct Pauling yeah this is.

Yeah, that is Professor Sampath and Pauling and yeah.

Sengupto, Sampath and then Sethunathan.

That is Sethunathan registrar, Sethunatan registrar right.

That is the same photograph following.

I remember her.

She used to put the board Professor C V Sethunathan.

And first remove it you know it you are very clear.

Yeah that.

one by one. So that we can have parallel tabs.

Yeah.

One by one.

This one is communication.

Menon.

Yeah, this is Menon probably.

Menon.

This is T.V. Gopal.

T.V. Gopal.

And that is Sadasivam. Sorry that is..

Anantha.

T.V. Gopal

C.R. Ramaswamy.

No no before that before that.

Pillai

No maybe student.

Maybe a student.

Is it the post graduate lab or is the research lab?

Sir this is UG lab, 30 no yeah this is 302

because the control panel was on this side 301

On the other side. Yeah.

This was standard sir.

These are all set up by Siemens Company

and their representatives in India.

Siemens people set up this console.

Sir was these labs there right from the beginning sir

in 1962 when the building was open?

60s.. This was built completely only in 64-65.

Because first the frame came,

the building was completed

then all these equipments came

in a crate and then the wiring is very extensive.

Yes.

That is in principle if there is a special supply

available from a generator in the measurements lab

for example, somebody at any part of the building

in the other sections also would be able to tap that.

Because all the supplies are going to

the centralized control panel

or the measurements lab from there spare

wires are there running from the other lab.

ok.

So, in principle if he has got some

special type of sine wave

at a variable frequency

somebody else can tap that anywhere else. So, it.

In fact, I used it for my Ph.D. in 1980,

I generated the waveform in machines lab

and used it in my room in room number 317.

So, brought it back to the

control center of measurements lab

which was room number 310

from there I routed it to 370.

Right.

And I was using that.

Was that a German Technical Institute

you got from or is it from Siemens company?

It is Siemens Company, Siemens.

Yeah, the machines and some of the things may have

come from different sources like and so on,

but the contact was Siemens only

they planned the distribution part.

Right was there a DC generator

DC battery room or something like that.

No.

DC.

We had a DG cell.

Yes.

I mean motor generator set.

Motor generator set which can generate

various frequency AC supply that is one.

And then one which generates almost a pure sine wave

because in the normal ISP generators do not get

give you a pure sine wave,

is contaminated by various harmonics.

I see.

But one which is almost free of that impurity..

That is said which is used for calibration purposes.

I see.

That is one which is special.

Ok.

And then there is another which were the voltage is

regulated precisely it does not change very much.

And also we had a 3 phase balancing unit.

So.. Which will give exactly 400 volts 120

degree phase shift 3 phase supply.

From a generator is it?

No, it was a separate unit.

sir.

It will operate on the mains it will adjust.

Increase decrease it is like an auto transformer.

This is Harry.

Machines lab.

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Prof. E.G. Thulapurkar (Retd. faculty, Aerospace Engineering) in conversation with Parvathi (student)

Good morning sir.

Good morning. I am Parvathi.

So, I guess we will just start off with the questions. Yeah.

So, to...from the beginning, could you just

tell us a bit about your career, where you studied,

and the...your reason for joining

the Aeronautics Department so early on.

I did my B. E. Mechanical from

Vikram University Ujjain,

of course I studied in Indore. Ok.

and...in 1964.

Then I joined IISc Bangalore.

For M. E. in Aeronautical Engineering. Ok.

And that I completed in 1966.

And then I was looking for some industrial experience in HAL,

for...before taking academics,

but that year there was an inci...that

there was a heavy devaluation of the rupee

in June 1966

and therefore, there was sort of job freeze.

And so, I could not get into HAL, but then

NAL had offered some...this fellowship.

Research...Senior Research Fellowship,

so I was there for about four months

and then IIT Madras was hiring but...for...

because the department was coming up.

So, I received a...senior Professor G. Subramaniam joined in

July, I think July 2000, July 1966.

Then some other Professor R. M. S. Gowda

and T. K. Varadan joined later,

and then I joined in January 1967. Ok.

Yeah, and of course that was the...

but then I have continued here.

Ok, and what was the reason for choosing the aeronautics branch?

No, that was after B. E. we were just

thinking aeronautics, one of the

advanced topics and so on. Ok.

So that glamour

Yes, sure. ...glamour yeah.

Ok and so, when you joined,

the department was in its nascent state then. Yeah.

And so, who were the faculty members,

the Head of the Dep...could you just give us a feel of the department yeah

at that point of time see

I would just like to mention at this stage, that

Professor S. R. Valluri,

Sitaram Rao Valluri,

he...he joined IIT in 1964,

he had done actually M. E. from IISc,

and then he did some work at CalTech.

California Institute of Technology,

and then, in many American institutes they have

Department of Aeronautics and Applied Mechanics.

So, he started that department,

but it so happened that 1965, the Founder-Director of NAL,

Neelakantan, he passed away

and Dr. Valluri was requested to start

become the Director there.

So, at that time, he is 65 I think, he joined there.

Professor Balaraman, K. Balaraman

was there, and then D. V. Reddy,

they were there. But then an Aero they started

first batch in...'63 batch was taken

to enter, to take and so,

they were there, then 19...7...then after...by '66-'67,

they started having aero courses,

and so they were recruiting.

So, Professor G...as I mentioned G. Subramaniam and Varadan...

and '67 January I joined,

but there were other faculty members in Applied Mechanics,

like Professor B. H. L. Gowda, Ashwathanarayana,

and others were there. Ok.

Yeah. Ok, and Professor Santhakumar had mentioned that

in the beginning there was more focus on teaching than on research.

So, how did that affect the branch?

Yeah what happened was that...

six...yeah yeah...there is...it was Aeronautics and Applied Mechanics.

And, but because of that, it could get some German aid.

And so, Professor Armin Klein,

he joined I think in '68 or so. Ok.

And he got some facilities for this. Ok.

And then research could be done,

and at that time of course, there were not many

senior people here.

So, research was slightly...

there is also many of us who joined,

who had M. Tech. degrees and all that,

so we were doing teaching,

but soon after, that is why...what I felt was

that Professor Sengupto’s contribution was

to set up the infrastructure and all that. Yeah.

And the German professors who were here,

they were setting up laboratories,

which were later...

later became research laboratories and all that. Ok.

So Professor Sengupto did play a major part

in the development of the department.

Like, could you tell us any memories of him?

No I...I was rather a junior.

Ok, I mean I was a Lecturer, but still,

not so high to be in contact,

I did not have much with...we use to know he is Director

and he used to address sometimes, and all that.

But not...but this is what I say,

his role was to develop rather...

develop the infrastructure and all that,

and the German professors,

and as I mentioned Professor Armin Klein..

he had worked in Göttingen under famous Professor Schlichting.

He had worked, and so he came and then he

he got one good very good tunnel,

thats a return circuit tunnel

which is called Göttingen type tunnel Ok

and it was started...and on mid...I think early '70s it was

set up and many people used it for research purposes.

I had also used it, yeah. Ok.

Research and Consultancy Project. Ok.

And to talk about the building itself,

when was the department building built,

and, like was it extended at any point of time?

What...in that also, I would just like to give a little background. Ok sir.

See earlier, this Department of Aeronautics and Applied Mechanics,

but then in late '60s,

there was a committee, national committee, Ok.

which recommended that there should be

Aerospace Departments in many IITs. Ok.

And so, that IIT Madras also decided,

and then, in order to give more emphasis to Aeronautics,

it...it was decided to separate.

So, and also Professor Pandalai. K. A. V. Pandalai,

he was...he had worked in structures

and in Brooklyn Polytechnic.

So he also came and...

then a separate department was formed in...in 1969.

4th of April I think.

1969, the building was inaugurated

by the then Chairman Board of Governors

Dr. H. V....Mister H. V. R Iengar. Ok.

Yeah, so department was started, and then of course

we had...we had laboratories, space and all that.

And later Gas Dynamics Laboratory was...

because now we did not have much...

I mean we did not have German aid.

So, we were developing our own laboratory,

so Gas Dynamics Laboratory was developed, just nearby. Ok.

And then Rarefied Gas Dynamics, that was the...that area,

I will perhaps talk about that later. Sure.

Rarefied Gas Dynamics facility was erected,

and it was...it has been used very well.

So, that also a separate. Ok.

And something that catches the eye about

the Aerospace Department is the

aircraft that you have outside it.

So, how did the department come to get it?

No, see early...as you have also mentioned there,

that there was an old airplane.

So, old airplane was given by the Air Force

and...that, but that was rather dilapidated,

and so, we were looking for different airplane.

So Navy gave this, this is...airplane Navy has given.

So the one that is lying discarded

at the back is the one you got earlier. Yeah.

Ok fine, fine.

Then, could you tell us a bit about

Professor Ramchandran, the second Director.

Yeah, he joined in the late, I mean, towards the end of 1967,

and he did give,

I mean he gave emphasis to the research. Ok.

And actually...may...he was...he...

I had heard somewhere, that when he

joined, there were only 40 professors in IIT,

but when he left, there were about 100 or so. Ok.

100 professor...may...that number may not be correct,

but 100-120 professors were there,

and Aero also Aero Department also benefited,

senior people were inducted, professor level and all that.

Professor N. R. Rajappa. He did his Ph. D....

of course, he was here earlier in Maths Department,

he did Ph. D. in Stanford, and then he joined Aero Department,

then then of course, Professor Pandalai

as I mentioned he was there, Professor Damodaran

and A. Krishnan they joined.

But in '70...and then Professor T. K. Bose,

Ph. D. from Stuttgart, he joined

in high...gas dynamics and all that.

And then Professor A. K. Sreekanth from...what is that

it is called University of Toronto Institute of Aerospace Study. Ok.

It is a famous institute.

So he had worked there, and he came.

And then Professor N. R. Subramaniam.

He was a well-known scientist in NAL Bangalore.

So he...he came for four years - '71 to '75.

So this period, we had many people.

Inducted and so the department...

then the research activity started,

you know as you had asked for research,

Professor Klein was there,

then Professor Pandalai,

then this Professor Sreekanth, Professor Rajappa, Professor Bose.

Then they were guiding Research Scholars,

ofcourse, I did work with Professor Rajappa and all. Ok.

And to talk about your other activities on the campus,

like were you involved in any other activities?

Like were you a warden of any hostel or something like that?

No, I was the Assistant Warden in Narmada Hostel Ok.

From '67 to '70. Ok.

But afterwards, I was mainly concentrating on academics. Ok, fine, fine.

Then how was...like

could you tell us a bit about how it was to teach students

so early on in the department, like

how was the...how was their attitude towards the subject,

and a bit about your teaching experience?

Ofcourse, there I have some attitude like that,

if there...I mean my feeling is only about

10 to 20 percent of the students

are interested in a particular topic and pursuing it.

And so, I was happy if that was happening,

see we used to have only about twenty students,

about five-six students are interested,

so they would come and meet me outside the class,

and we would interact with them. Ok.

And and ofcourse, I gave,

ofcourse later I will come to my topic of

research and all, turbulent flows. Yeah.

I used to give courses on

introduction turbulence flows and their prediction.

There the students from various departments used to...

used to...I mean that is...they used to attend my classes,

and actually I used to give them notes,

and those notes were circulated even abroad.

So people even there, they used to study me,

when I went to University of Maryland,

they said we are studying your notes and all. Ok.

So, that way it was one happy experience. Ok.

But there were some students who may not be interested,

so that is how...and because

everybody is not interested in every subject.

Do you have any other

memorable incidents that you still remember

from your teaching career,

anything specific sort of? Yeah.

No, not...means...I was rated as one of the good teachers and

that some students would come, and there was

some good students, one is one S. P. Vishwanathan.

He did it in '60...no '70, 1970 batch

he was, and then he was in Boeing,

he was in Boeing and all that,

and he used to do,

but even as B. Tech. student, he did some work

which was later used, you know the winglets.

Winglets on the airplanes,

he had thought about it here.

And then he went there,

he went...he was in Lockheed no...

he was in Lockheed, I think

he was in Lockheed Martin,

and then he was nice.

I had his notes,

see he had...he used to write nice answer...he...

his assignments used to be good,

so I had kept them.

And then in 2004, he came here

as a Visiting Professor. Ok.

So I showed him, and he was very happy,

very happy to see his notes, yeah. Ok

And, one more thing sir, Yeah.

we understand that there was a brief collaboration with

France with...for the department.

So, how did this affect the department?

Yeah, that...no, it was useful. Ok.

And that is...it started in mid-1970s

and Professor Pandalai was Director from '73

to...he was the HOD...first HOD of Aerospace,

then '73 he became the Director.

'73 to '77 he was the Director,

and since Aero did not have any aid,

he...although he had inspired us to

develop the laboratories on our own,

but he also procured this...

or rather he was instrumental in getting this collaboration.

So...we of five people visited, under that,

so Professor Gowda, S. Santhakumar,

then S. Krishnan, P. Venkateswarlu and myself,

we went there for a varying period. nine to... Ok.

nine months to 15 months or so,

we used to...we went to some of the very important laboratories

and did, and then they gave a shock tube.

I forget which institute they gave,

right, they gave a shock tube in that

Professor...for that Professor Sreekanth and Dr. Kurian,

Job Kurian, they went to France

then they brought it, and set it up.

So it was only a small collaboration,

ofcourse there was a very interesting...

then once we asked one of the French Professors

that "Why not extend it?"

They said, "You bought some French airplanes,

so we gave a collaboration.

You buy more aeroplanes, we will give you more."

So, it was... Ok.

So, now we could, we would like to move a bit

on to your fields of research.

Yeah. So, could you tell us a bit about your major areas of interest?

Yeah, I have been working in the area of

Turbulent Measurement and Computation of Turbulent Flows. Ok.

And so, I have given,

actually invited lecture on...on this topic,

or on turbulent flows for one week

short term courses, for major aerospace industry

that is NAL in 1987, ISRO in 1991,

and then DRDA in...I think 1996, HAL in 1990,

and also I...abroad I have given lectures on this subject,

turbulent flows and their prediction.

And then I gave advice to ADE

Aeronautical Development Establishment

when they...who were developed this LCA airplane,

that is what model should be used for

computation of low pass airplanes.

And that has also been published as a review article

in 1997, in Progress in Aerospace Sciences. Yeah. Ok.

So, like, could you tell us about your first research project

and how was it to get funding and other support for the project?

I would just like to give a background. Sure.

That...you see in mid-'70s,

The Government of...the not...Ministry of Defence,

they established this...there is one board,

Aeronautical Research and Development...

Development Board, AR & DB.

So, this, and on this was rather

they would fund open ended projects, research projects

and all, not exactly application oriented.

And so...and they were also visual,

they had people, eminent people from IITs and IISc, NAL,

and various people, and they would give projects.

So, Professor Sreekanth got a project for...

I...this rarefied gas dynamics facility. Ok.

Because that was not there in the country and actually...

and when it was built in early '80s, I think.

So, it was one of the best facilities in the South-East Asia.

South-East Asia and then ofcourse,

the shock tube was also there,

that was also updated under this ARDB projects.

And I had a project in '80...

'84, I had first project from ARDB, wave boundary layer interaction.

So, we did studies on that,

and under that, we lot equipment.

See, the main...as I mentioned, ARDB

was very generous in funding,

and also, they didn't ask for...you know applications immediately.

So, because I had also gone to France and that...

I had also done something work on turbulence and all that,

and so that was very helpful to continue,

then it was a four year project,

we did some work, published many papers,

and yeah, after of...subsequently

I had a project from Volkswagen Foundation.

For flow study inside cars...inside,

because outside people have studied inside,

so for that, we got a equipment...laser Doppler anemometer. Ok.

Laser Dop...so we were able to get this

latest equipment with the help of these projects. Ok.

So, when you look back on your research career,

what is it that you find the most memorable,

or most successful sort of?

That is, I was also...I was trying to involve many...

I was also involved in Computational Fluid Dynamics,

of course Professor T. K. Bose and

some other peoples...people will also be there,

Professor Ramakrishna, M. Ramakrishna

had joined our department in 1990,

and so CFD, that is Computational Fluid Dynamics

was becoming a very important area.

And so, we brought...we...and this was being,

the research was being done in various departments.

Aero...Applied Mechanics, Civil, Mechanical, Chemical, Mathematics,

and so...Metallurgy also.

So we brought toge...people together,

and then proposed a big project to DST,

and they gave us a three crore project.

So, to set up a CFD centre ok.

That was project was given in 1998,

and then centre was...centre started working and all that.

And ofcourse, at that time there had been this,

India was not being high speed computers and all that,

high, so we took help of DR...

there is a DRDL Lab called ANURAG. Ok.

Advanced Numerical Research Analysis,

so they built a supercomputer. Ok.

Supercomputer for our purpose,

of course that it was super...at that time,

but now it is, of course, ALDR this C-DAC

Centre for Advanced Computing in Pune, they also had.

So we got that, and then we worked, about 25

staff members from various departments,

were working together,

and we did computations for various industries

and all that...GTRE Gas Turbine Research Es...

so we had some six-seven projects from them.

Then DRDL, DRDL Hyderabad.

We...and many other...you know, in some industries also

we developed some codes and all that.

It is still there, centre is there.

But then...I will come to that, later also.

Some things...what happened.

And one other thing I would like to know is like

how was the collaboration with other departments then?

So...like the interaction, teaching or research,

could you tell us a bit about that? Yeah

As I mentioned here, that, I mean see

Aero we had four-five people who were working,

the...actually the...the CFD centre,

coordinators also, there were five coordinators. Ok.

Five or six, six coordinators,

and they were from different department.

Aero of course, we...because I was the Principal Coordinator,

Aero there were one more Ramakrishna, Yeah.

And then Professor Sreenivas Jayanthi from Chemical Engineering,

then Professor T. Sundararajan from Mechanical Engineering.

And somebody else...

but ofcourse, one more person was there,

so five-six coordinators...and then, we had good relationship. Ok.

People from Mathematics and all that,

so one Professor Usha in Mathematics, Yeah yeah.

she...we have worked with her

and we have published, I mean several papers together.

So otherwise people they think that

Maths people you cannot...work with them...with them easily,

but now we...we, but with, understanding it was possible,

Metallurgy people were there. Ok.

So it was...there about 25-30 people were,

you know, using the facilities, students would use,

and, we were doing problems of industry by solving... Ok.

And one other thing, like the FRP Centre was

set up around this time,

so were you involved with it in...in any form?

No, that was a slightly different area,

but the history as I...as I see about it is,

that in 1972, I think it was 19...

this CSIR, you know Scientis... Yeah,

Council of Scientific Industrialists.

I...I think that it was having Silver Jubilee Ok.

in '72 or '73, somewhere around that.

And then Professor Pandalai,

he was given a project by CSIR.

Silver Jubilee fund, that to start a Centre for Composites...

Composites...FRP, FRP means Ok

Fibre Reinforced Plastic, Ok

this research centre was started in 1972.

So...and then he...he...it was attached to the Aero Department

and some two-three people were...

one Professor Kunukkuseril...Xavier Kunukkuseri he was... Ok

he...he was there and some others were there,

and he mentioned about Professor Nair or somebody,

so Nair and others were there.

And then in the active...they did very good work,

industry and others were...they were developing manpower,

they were they develop...

and also did lot of work for others,

they acquired equipment

which could be used by industry and others. Ok.

And so, in order to further encourage ARDB I think,

ARDB gave funds to have more equipment, more faculty,

and also three-four people from from other department also. Ok.

So, people from Aero were there,

then people from Metallurgy, people from Civil,

So three-fo...they used to work,

it became interdisciplinary centre, Comptech,

it...then it become Comptech in 1997. Ok.

And it was doing, it was doing good work. Ok.

Ofcourse, I will come to it later, what happened to... Sure, sure.

what...some problems came up, yeah.

And sir, moving on a bit to your life on campus,

did you stay in campus during those days? Yes, yes

ofcourse, as Assistant Warden I was here and then,

afterwards I had...I was in Taramani Guest House

for some time, and then we moved after marriage,

and we moved to quarter, that was in D-Type,

then C1-Type and B-Type.

It was a nice...ofcourse,

my wife was also working in KV-IIT. Ok.

And son was study...son was studying in Vanavani.

So, we had...it was very lovely, Yeah yeah

ofcourse deer would come into our camp...compound and all that.

So, like anything else, like how was the...

was the OAT...did you go for the movies at OAT? Yeah,

we used to go, we used to go every week and all,

even after retirement I used to go for some time,

I used to go. Ok.

And looking back, could you identify any

exceptional research scholars and

any experiences with them?

People you still remember from your career?

Yeah, now...I would mention about Dr. Gangan Prathap.

Gangan Prathap you might have heard of his name,

he...he...he...he was first in JEE in 1969. Ok.

And then he joined Aero Department,

and then he was first in B. Tech., Ok.

I think President's Medal, yeah President's Medal he got,

and...Gangan Prathap...and then he

joined our Department for Ph. D.,

then of course he did Aero B. Tech. Aero,

so first time anybody from Aero had stood first. First

Stood first in IIT, and then he

joined for Ph. D. under Professor Varadan. Yeah.

Varadan in Structural Mechanics and all that,

and he finished Ph. D. in four years.

In the '78 he had finished his Ph. D., then he joined NAL. ok

National Aerospace Laboratories, Bangalore,

and he did work in Structural Mechanics and all that,

he...he got Bhatnagar Award and many things,

and he is...he is one of the I...I think he is the only from Aero

to get the Distinguished Alumnus Award

and so, he has made... Ok.

so he was...of course, I had very good students,

they have published some papers and

some of them, they remember and all that.

And, I have...I mean, I had also a good

experience with M. S. scholars. Ok.

See, what happened, M. S. scholars most...

many of them are from other colleges,

not from IIT, because our own students used to go abroad mostly.

So, the M. S. scholars I found them

very, I mean and that...are hardworking and also

willing to listen and all that, learn,

and then I used to publish papers with them

and so, it was nice.

So we have published several

papers in international journals,

and done some good work,

industrial work and all that. Ok.

So, Ph. D. scholars also have been good,

I had one person from Iran. Ok.

So, he... From Iran.

Yeah Iran, he was a student of Iran.

So, I had good relationship, and yeah. Ok.

And now looking back at the department as a,

could I...could you identify like two or three

major implications that the work

has had on the aerospace industry,

like department has had on that industry?

That as you see, this CFD Centre

which was there, Yes

it was...it...it did...I mean projects

for DTRE or DRDL and many other research.

even some private...these on metallurgy,

the...the Institute of Metallurgy Company,

they m...they mould and all that.

So, they ha...they were having an imported code.

But then, they wanted to make changes

and they...and it was becoming costly,

so IIT people wrote.

IIT people wrote a code for that, Ok

that is you know, it is a very complicated,

the...in the mould, the molten metal is coming,

it is freezing, and so, phase change and all that.

And so it was completed already...Professor T. Sundararajan of

Mechanical, and Professor what is his name, Prasanna Kumar. Ok

Of Metallurgy. You know Professor Prasanna Kumar, Yes yes

he is still there I think, he is still the faculty yeah. Yes.

So, Prasanna Kumar, and Sundararajan and others,

they did project for industry

and so, that was one thing.

Then, yeah and department, yeah

this...I...what is that...yeah rarefied gas dynamics I think,

that was the unique in the

neighbourhood country and neighbourhood.

So, a lot of research,

interesting research for ISRO was done. Ok.

And then shock tube also, yeah the...

because we...we have at high...high...high speeds

and all that, you have the shocks

so the, when we had updated facility.

Just to give you an example in that

rarefied gas dynamics facility...you have a jet of air,

it expands at a certain rate,

in this ordinary atmosphere. Yes.

But in the rarefied atmosphere,

it expands much...much...

much faster...wider, it becomes wider,

and then in a...in a...in a satellite,

there are small jets to correct its rotation and all that.

There are small jets.

Now, these jets are...when they are fired,

the...that jet will come,

and that jet should not hit the solar panels.

So, that kind of studies people have done, and so on

and then another thing was,

our Professor, I didn't mention our Professor S. Krishnan

Professor S. Krishnan joined IIT say '68-'69 or so,

and he did lot of work in propulsion. Ok

So, he developed his Rockets and Missiles Laboratory.

There, they did lot of propellant tests for propellants, for DRDL.

And DRDL was given propellants,

which were more efficient,

you know...you know the specific thrust,

there is a term called specific thrust,

so they had more specific thrust.

So, he did lot of work along

with Satyanarayana and others.

And then the gas dynamics and other laboratories,

the Professor Sujith, R. I. Sujith

he did lot of work for...consultancy work for ISRO. Ok.

ISRO, so department made

Parvathi: Quite a lot of...[Indistinct Dialogue] Yeah yeah.

Parvathi: Ok, and Because you know, and one thing was most of the

aerospace organizations they had this embargo.

So DRDL was not getting technology from outside,

ISRO was not getting technology from outside.

So, our peop...and even nuclear research

you know that is Kalpakkam and others. Yes.

So they...they were denied in this thing,

our people were helping them.

See people from...and the

the flow inside the reactors are complicated.

They have different material sodium, liquid

sodium, and with a different type of fluid and all, so

flow inside that and complicated flow.

so people have been solving those things...problem Ok

Sir, and one other thing, like with all your experience

in the field, like could you tell us

like two or three qualities that you think

an aerospace engineer should have,

just looking back on your experience?

I see, you know aerospace what we try to do is,

it is...it is something at the cutting edge level.

So, we give them general background. Yeah.

That is because...but at the same time,

they are given more fundamentals and computational skills. Yeah.

Experimental skills, all the fundamentals, Yeah

computational and experimental skills, we...

so they have good mathematical background,

because this, you know computational fluid dynamics

or aero dynamics, or structural mechanics,

they involve advance techniques, Yeah.

finite element methods and so on.

So our students have given background in

computational techniques and also mathematics.

So, they are able to solve problems in different areas,

and also they go to different areas. Yes.

Our students have been going to different areas

and doing very well, even one of them,

there is one...Sumantran. Sumantran, he was

he...he was in General Motors.

He was...he was you know...and then he came and he was in...

he was in Tata Motors. ok.

And this I think Nano and all that

were...he was...he was one of the

persons who...he lives here only I think,

he...he...in Besant Nagar, but he was been...

So he was...so like that, there were our,

they have general background.

So, they are able to fit into various areas.

And, looking at the situation of the industry right now,

how do you think 'Make in India' and the increased

external investment will help the department, and the industry?

Now, as I have mentioned earlier, that

our people have been helping the aeros...

I mean that aerospace laboratories and R and D,

because most of the aerospace is actually is like

they do R and D, and then they produce,

it is not much of a mass production,

but you know, the satellites are made,

but there are problems, our people have been solving them,

and even this...some time back, they have...they...

they have flown that reusable vehicle. Yeah.

So, some of our people have helped in that, Ok

they have done some problem, here...here and also

DRDL the...the some of the missiles,

they enter the atmosphere.

So how that...what should be the

type of material for the heat shield and all that,

so many of these...and even as

I mentioned, nuclear power also.

So people have been helping,

so, there is a potential available.

So if now, other people also, they have some problems,

they can come, and our people can tackle them. Ok.

So that may...that Make in India,

where it is not Make in India, just producing,

but if there...there will be technological inputs,

so I do not know, this maybe this, our Research Park, Yes.

they must be helping them.

So, and if some of them,

ofcourse, I am not sure whether aero people

are involved with them, but they can be involved

and they...there should be...that should be,

and they should...I mean...that is, they should design and make. Yes

Ok, you are saying it should not be just Make in India. Just making.

Ok Ofcourse, in making also if there are any difficulties,

our Production Engineering and other...

a Manufacturing Eengineering you know, MES. Yes

People are there to sort out those problems.

So, to just close off, could you just like...

what would you like to say it to the young aerospace engineers

in campus, and like everywhere around?

What...see when I become a HOD in 1995,

I was finding that some of the younger people

were drifting in...away from research,

so, then what...what...I tried to do something,

and so Professor Sujith,

in '95, he joined and then Professor...

now they are Professors, Satyanarayana Chakravarthy.

They joined during that period.

So, I used to, when they came

and met me after joining,

I told him that, "You concentrate on research,"

because what I told them is that IIT teaching

is different from other colleges,

Because here people do research.

People are doing research

and the research findings they percolate into teaching.

So that is how the teaching is much...at a higher level.

And, how to keep on doing research, I told them

that there are simple...I mean two simple ways,

but practical, that is you try to publish

at least two papers in journals in a year.

And second thing is, you have two projects at a time.

Because some people are not taking project,

even now IIT not...I think the...only about...

not even half these faculty are having projects.

So, with the projects, I told them

"You will have...you can buy equipment,

computing experimental equipment

or computing resources

and then you can also have students."

See IIT has limited number of students,

but if you have project, you can have a student

on the project and he can do M. S. and Ph. D.

So...and there were some other freedoms also,

you can travel, and all that.

So, have two projects at a time

and...so this advice was...

was followed by Sujith and Satyanarayana,

Sujith has done very well, he...he two years ago

he got that Mid-Career Research Award.

Ok IIT has the awards you know.

That...the initial award and then,

Mid-Career and then senior people get

some Lifetime Award and all that.

So he got that award, and he has even published

more than 100 papers by now,

I had just told him,

that "Try to publish hundred by...try that

target of 100 before you become 50."

So, he...he came and told me

the other day that he he had achieved that.

And Satyanarayana also has done very well in...

he is very well known...abroad,

and in the country also.

And he is now the...almost he is the leading...Principal Coordinator

for the 50 crore centre on combustion research.

There is a big...it...it will be inaugurated I think soon. Ok.

You might have heard by the side of Aero Department, Yes.

There is the Centre for Combustion Studies,

so, he has been given that project,

and so, they are doing...they have done,

then they have been editor of journals,

and so they have...both of them have done very well.

So that's what I tell you know, our younger people also

when I met them that, because some people say,

"No we will not do project," and all that.

But I tell them, "Projects have their own..."

even projects help the Institute, and we solve problems

which are needed for the country and all that. Ok.

So I have been telling that,

and that was...they followed and it is

having a seen this way.

Now, Sujith is...has...recently you might have see in

last Sunday’s Indian Express that,

Sujith and his students, they have...

they have been studying this combustion instability.

And now, they have developed a scheme,

or a method...that how to...because

sometimes, this instability sets in, and engine stops.

To prevent that, they do all sorts of...

they...I mean, they do use it under efficient yeah...

under capacity and all that.

But now they are, they have given a...yeah, they are coming up

with a scheme that it can be...warning can be given.

Warning can be given, it came in last Sunday

Indian Express and all that,

and so, of course, they are going to have patent and all that.

So those things, they are coming,

that is we should develop new things

and then make patents and all that. Ok.

So before we end, anything else that, you would like to say

to the people who are watching this?

So, about your having had such a long career

in the department, and looking back,

anything that you would like to say to us?

Yeah that is what...

yeah I think you had asked something,

now, the working together...

yeah [Reads From Paper] see...yeah working...that was...the anything

[Reads From Paper] I would like to have accomplish

[Reads From Paper] accomplishments of department. What happened was,

that yeah since 1990s and so on, the funds are available.

That is...when you propose projects and all that,

so you can get big funds for equipment,

for computing resources and so on,

but to make a mark, what was...

what is needed is, to have a group. Yes sir.

And the interdisciplinary group.

So, CFD centre we started,

and so, as I have mentioned 25-30 staff members

from various departments would come together,

discuss together, and see, somebody working

in metallurgy, he may have some problem,

but same thing can be...same...

that method can be used in some other.

So, that was that...what they call

cross fertilisation of ideas and all that.

So that was going on,

and it went on for some some years.

Similarly there is the there is this...this Comptech

Comptech there are people from Civil, Metallurgy and others.

Then, the CFEAD there was a centre called

Centre for Finite Element Analysis and Design. Ok.

CFEAD. It was in civil line,

but there were people from aero

and other people were there,

even Tata Consultancy had given them...

some students used to come.

That is, they used to depute their staff

to do M. Tech., and all that here.

And there was one MSRC, Material Science Research Centre. Yeah.

So these we are bringing together

from Metallurgy, Chemistry and other places.

But somehow in 2004, something happened

and the IIT was trying to say...

yeah of course, I was I think I was mentioning in something

which you...you felt you could not do before retirement,

I think that is the point I was...

that question is what I had written down this.

So, 2004 this idea somehow it came,

that the centre should be attached to the departments. Ok.

2004, and I have...

I thought that was not a good idea,

but after I retired in 2005 first time,

of course, second, then re-employed

and first time at the age of 62.

So, 2005, I could not prevent that.

And then these centres were attached.

CFD centre were attached,

Mechanical Engineering Department

Comptech was attached to Aero,

MSRC was attached to Chemistry,

and CFEAD was...they...they didn't like this idea,

so they closed, I think they...they said...

they...they...they they sort of...people said you know ok,

we...we will do our own.

But what happened with this attachment,

the interdiscipline nature stopped. Yes.

So now, CFD Centre in Mechanical Engineering,

the people from Chemical and all the

other departments are not coming,

he said, "It is department of Mechanical,"

and Mchanical Department says

"Let us have...it is a part of the department."

So, it is like one laboratory.

So, funding was also gone,

Comptech also these people from Civil, Metallurgy

they went away, they...they same MSRC,

which is all other people,

Metallurgy and other people

they had lot of costly equipment,

they...they have gone away.

So, this was not, this is...this I felt was

not a good thing, I felt, I...even now I feel sad about it,

but now of course some new centres are coming up.

This Combustion Centre is coming up,

and then I think Biotechnology also they have some...

so, I only wish that these centres

and interdisciplinary work blossoms in IIT. Sure, thank you.

Ok, and that's all sir, so

Yeah. we come to the end of our interview.

Kumaran Sathasivam: You had mentioned something about the FRP Centre, sir.

FRP had become Comptech, FRP in 1997,

because to give it more importance,

it was made Composite Technology Centre, Comptech.

that also see, Comptech had people from Aero,

people from Civil, people from Metallurgy,

I know they were there,

but now once the centre was attached to Aero Department,

it became...the funding was small

and also other people said "It is Aero."

So, it was. So the interdisciplinary nature was not there.

That interdisciplinary nature was...

so this was...now anyway some...it's coming,

new centres are coming, this Combustion Centre

they are Mechanical Engineering people, Aero people,

and maybe Chemical Engineering, they...they will be there...there.

so that is needed...interdisciplinary studies,

our way of working is important,

because people come together

and they can do bigger projects.

See what happens is IIT Kanpur,

they had some Professor Biswas,

of course he has now left

and he has become Director of IIT Guwahati.

But Professor Biswas, Professor Muraleedhar,

Professor Muraleedhar, Professor Eshwar,

but of course, he has also gone to IIT Hyderabad,

The Head of Mechanic...

But there some of them, they came together

at IIT Kanpur, and then they developed course.

See to develop a course,

you need a team,

and you need also some ideas,

because different people have different ideas,

so what they have...what they had achieved was,

that BARC, BARC had developed some code. Ok.

Now, these people develop a parallel code,

and then they would compare.

See the...so that is called...I mean

in computational fluid dynamics, that also is needed.

You give it to two teams,

and they develop course,

and then they...inter-code comparisons,

and there will be some other things.

See, how they are tackling some of the computational difficulties,

so that was, of course they are also...

these people have now...they have gone

to different places, Muraleedhar is there,

but Eshwaran has gone to Hyderabad,

Biswas has gone to... Ok.

But that is needed.

So people coming over together,

then only they can do good codes.

See, abroad some of the professors

and others are developing codes,

they are forming companies,

that is because they...they have

they...they work together and yeah,

so that is what is...interdisciplinary...working is needed. Ok.

Yeah. Ok, that's all sir.

So, thank you so much for spending your time,

No, it is ok. Ok, thank you.

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Dr. C. Mohan in conversation with Prof. R. Nagarajan

Good morning, Mohan. Welcome to Heritage Centre.

Thank you, Nags.

So, we will mainly talk about your days here at IIT

even you are a student,

but before we do that just give us a little bit of a history of

how you got into IIT and then what you have been

doing since you left IIT. Ok.

Interestingly enough even though my

mom’s first cousin Professor V. Rama Murthy

was a faculty member in Mechanical Engineering.

Somehow I didn’t know about IIT until

I was about to apply for pre-university course

and then one of my high school best buddies said hey,

you should go join Loyola College because they have this

coaching for a month before the

JEE for IIT and I am like what is IIT?

So, anyway, that is how it started out and then of course,

my parents said why do you want to go to Chennai

and study there when we have set up shop in Vellore?

For purely the kids education.

So, then finally, my dad says ok whichever comes first

Voorhees College in Vellore or Loyola in Chennai

I should take it up

and luckily for me the Loyola College one came up

and so, at that time it was just one month, one hour

each day in the morning before regular classes

Math, Physics, Chemistry being covered in these things.

So, that is how I wound up getting

to become aware of IIT and then you know

get prepared in terms of the JEE.

And, it was like sheep mentality at the time right

based on what rank you got you know the

top choice was Electronics, next was Chemical.

So, my rank was such that

I went into that not because of any particular

interest in Chemical Engineering as supposed to

some other branch of Engineering.

But, then as many people know when I was

starting my second year, it is 1973 is when the

IBM mainframe came as a gift to IIT Madras,

from West Germany and I got hooked

and the rest is kind of history in the sense of

my spending all my spare time and more

hanging around in the Computer Centre

and I had the benefit of IIT letting even undergraduates

who had from a curriculum perspective

no business going anywhere near the computer. Right.

Unlimited access so.

And since I left IIT in ‘77 of course,

with all the 4 years of heavy duty learning about computers

and such I had made up my mind

especially starting from the third year

that I was going to do a Ph.D in Computer Science.

But between the beginning of the second year

and the third year

I thought I will do a Ph.D in management science

because to begin with I was using lot of these

application packages that were

available on that mainframe system.

But, then there was some special feature

I was trying to use in a simulation package

where the software kept crashing and that is when

sitting at home in the summer of 1974, I was debugging this

software and that is when I said the macho thing to do

is to do a Ph.D in Computer Science

and get into hardcore nuts and bolts low level

hardware as well as software kind of thing.

But, I still graduated only in the software space

in terms of my Ph.D work.

I didn’t really do any hardware oriented work.

So, and after graduation of course,

from my Ph.D I joined IBM research

and I have been there ever since 38 years of being part of the

IBM research division. Right.

Primarily in San Jose,

but I did spend about 32 months in Bangalore

as the IBM India Chief Scientist and also

for 1 year I did a sabbatical in Paris

at a French Computer Science Research Institute.

It was from 1998 to 99. Ok.

So, going back to your days at on campus,

what are your some of your best memories

you know maybe take it year wise first year, what you were?

First year I was more of a normal guy

in the sense that when I joined Loyola College

for my pre-university in 1971

that was the first time I started playing tennis.

As opposed to during my high school days in Vellore

playing cricket and being a member of the Vellore Cricket Club.

So, when I came to IIT in 72

that first year I regularly went to OAT movies,

I used the tennis courts here and so on.

But, once the second year started and I got sucked into

Computer Science related stuff as a side activity,

it began to dominate my psyche so much

that I stopped doing anything else.

I didn’t even hang around as much with my own batchmates

let alone others in the hostel and also in terms of hostel

I was in Alaknanda to begin with and I should have

as a Chemical Engineering guy gone to Godavari in 70.

You had the 1 plus 4 model right?

Yeah, right exactly, but at the time they

did not have enough space in Godavari.

So, some of us got sent to Saraswati,

but then from the third year onwards I was in Godavari.

So, I did you know spent some amount of time

with my batchmates and others in the hostel,

but really not the normal kind of time

that others would have done.

Because I got to know more of the Master students

who were in Computer Science

because when the Computer Centre was started in 73

they started with the Masters program and also the PhD program,

but undergraduate degrees in Computer Science

didn't begin anywhere in India to my knowledge until

late 70s early 80s.

So, of course, the campus and you know

Mardi Gras all those sorts of things

have left a lasting impression on me.

Mardi Gras is now called Saarang yeah.

And, also you know being close enough to my parents

who are living in Vellore just 80–85 miles I wound up

as a Tamil guy spending my entire pre-Ph.D days life in

Tamil Nadu except for holidays going to some other parts of India.

But, also I didn’t learned Hindi in school because

by the time I would have normally had

Hindi education in high school

the Tamil Nadu Government went from being

Congress Government to DMK and so, the

three language formula became two-language formula,

but my mother still thought I should learn Hindi and so

I had to go to Dakshin Bharat Hindi Prachar Sabha to learn.

And, some of that knowledge I could have kept up

while I was in IIT if only I had hung around enough with the Right.

my classmates or even others that were more into

Hindi speaking, but I just didn’t.

Of course, we are just had our own

vernacular rate we had that campus.

Oh yeah of course, of course, that is true too.

But, I do think that you know the

whole cosmopolitan student body is a the big plus.

Yeah, yeah definitely.

No question about that.

But, in fact, interestingly enough it is when I went to

America to Austin Texas for my Ph.D that I actually

started feeling very bad about having not having kept up my

Hindi knowledge because there the Indian community was

so small that everybody automatically assumed that

everybody will know Hindi. Right.

So, and also even movies that were being shown over

there were Hindi movies with no subtitles to begin with.

So, I actually tried hard to revive my [laughter] Hindi knowledge,

but then soon after the subtitles in English started coming.

So, I was less motivated then.

So, anyway that is the.

How was your workshop experience, sir?

That was pretty tough, right because

at that time in the first year 50 percent of the time

every other week we spent entirely in the workshop

and in the second year one day of every week

we spent in the workshop.

So, it did you know, make life here very different

compared to some of my contemporaries

in other engineering colleges and so on

or even in other IITs for that matter .

But, I do not know whether in my case it left

any lasting impression in the sense of being very hands on guy

because even you know much later in life at home and so on

my wife complains that I am not doing

enough of the things myself.

Like the professionals do it that's why.

But as an engineer I suppose

and I am supposed to be expected to be more hands

on than I have wound up being.

Yeah, just supervise.

The other subject lot of people remember is of course

drawing, Engineering Drawing

which also used to be pretty painful and,

but you are ok with the drawing.

Yeah, you see it is been so long that some of these things

have sort of been being

sent out of the cache in my head you know.

So, so, you know it is already what 42 plus years

since I graduated 1977 is when I

Finished my Bachelor’s Degree.

So, lot more things have come into my immediate attention,

scope and so on so, some of those memories are not as vivid,

but these days you know it is interesting when I look

at the WhatsApp group of my classmates, some of the guys

were able to recall even dorm room numbers and the roll number

and such things so vividly and they are also talking about

various workshop employees

and so on extremely well and so, I feel bad.

Is my brain so messed up compared to these

other guys at least in terms of memory? lost memories.

make up names and.

No, but then there are these other guys

who are also you know at times pointing out some

errors in this recollection and so on.

So, it is quite amazing how some people have such selective

Sure. memory about some of these sorts of things

and in my case that is not the situation.

So. Any memories about the department?

Chemical Engineering all I remember is

you know Ananth teaching Thermodynamics

and of course, later on long after

I left he became the Director

and then I am forgetting Gopinath was there.

Was there a Govinda Rajalu?

Govinda Rajalu, I don’t remember.

No, see again you know in my case I am a bad example,

right because I was essentially trying to get away

with the minimal amount of work in Chemical Engineering,

so much so that my parents when they noticed

how much time I was spending in

in the Computer Centre and even my name C. Mohan was

interpreted as Computer Mohan.

My parents thought that I might even flunk

my Chemical Engineering with all the enthusiasm

I was showing on Computer Science.

So, in that sense I do not have as much of an attachment to the

department in the sense of

after I left coming back and interacting with the

staff members, but there was one Chemical Engineering professor

who had become a Computer Science person

and that was Professor Nagarajan your name sake,

but he was an older gentleman of course.

So, he was one of the few faculty members in

in Computer Science after the computer came here the

mainframe that encouraged my craziness of

spending so much time on something

that wasn’t supposed to be my focus at IIT .

The major one being of course, Professor C. R. Muthu Krishnan.

Who was one of the two faculty members who came from

IIT, Kanpur to start the Computer Centre and the

other one being Professor Mahabala.

So, Muthu was ultimately my

project advisor even for my B.Tech project.

So, even that project I didn’t do in Chemical Engineering.

So, in so many ways I was the oddball guy

that was nominally a Chemical Engineering student,

but in fact, I wasn’t. Did you get into trouble in the department because of that?

No, actually strangely enough

they even permitted me to do this B.Tech project in Computer Science.

So, in that sense I got lucky and so in many ways

I used to feel originally that unlike the

IIT Kanpur administration based on the fact that

Kanpur was started with US assistance

gave the students lot more flexibility.

So, the only thing I could have done in a formal sense

in IIT Madras as an undergraduate student

in the area of Computer Science was in the

eighth or the ninth semester as a Mathematics option

I could have taken Fortran programming as a course

and that would have been the only formal

grade qualifying entry I would have had in my mark sheet.

But then since I had started programming

in the third semester this didn’t make.

Because things are very different now as I am

sure you know you know there is so much flexibility now.

Chemical Engineering student can get a B.Tech in Chemical Engineering

and an M.Tech in Data Science you know integrated

5 year program I see

or you can do a B.Tech in Chemical Engineering with a

minor in Computer Science.

So, there is just large number of ways in which- Yeah.

So, we didn’t didn’t have a notion of minor at all, right during?

No, we didn’t. And even in your time?

No. You are about 3 years, 81.

Yeah. 4 years junior to me, right.

So, yeah definitely I mean it is just that I was here at a time when

I suppose because of the West German idea of

what undergraduates should do it was a

more strict kind of way of deciding who gets to do what.

But, at the same time I was also extremely pleased

that not only the Computer Centre administration

but even the rest of the admin people in IIT Madras

allowed somebody like me to

have unlimited access to the mainframe.

And so, to that extent I am forever grateful to

the people in IIT Madras that let guys like me exist

and not get penalized in any sense.

In fact, I was quite surprised when I finally

managed to get out with a 7.5 GPA

is that the term or CPA? CGPA.

Now now I think it was originally credit point average. Yeah.

Yeah and that was just barely making it in first class. Right.

7.5 was the minimum we had to get to get a first class

and so, I was ok with that.

Although you know lots of other people obviously

got much higher CPAs than I what I got,

but the saving grace for me was once I started doing

Computer Science I managed to get out with a I think 3. 95 out of 4.

No only one course where I got the B

dragged me down to a none 4.2 grade point average.

So, yeah that is about it.

What was the food like?

I mean what is your memories of the-

A food, I don’t recall a whole lot.

I mean again I suppose I was not that much

hung up about food and such.

I mean I was a vegetarian and I am still a vegetarian.

So, I was ok with it.

I mean even now I am not so particular about

what I eat and such as long as

it fills my stomach I am more or less ok.

There aren't too many things that I say I just can’t

I I won’t eat because I don’t like the taste or whatever.

More and more of course, you know certain things

I am avoiding just because it doesn’t seem to suit me physiologically,

but other than that life in IIT, I mean I got so crazy at

one point that I even avoided going to the OAT

movies thinking I should spend even

that time learning more about some Computer Science geeky things.

Do you have any regrets about your time at IIT, Madras?

Not really the the only thing I could presumably have done

better is as I was saying earlier kept up my Hindi knowledge

and gotten to know a bit more about people

that came from other parts of India

to learn more about their states

and their culture and so on.

Interestingly enough it was for the first time in Austin,

the first summer over there, summer of 78 that some of the

Gujarati women there dragged me on to the stage to perform

in Raas and Bhangra and such things

and I had never been on stage in my time at IIT

and even in high school,

the school I went to was not one of those sorts of

all round kinds of schools in Vellore,

the Krishnaswamy Mudaliar High School.

So, it was more academic focus that was dinned into me.

So, in that sense you know even my roommate in Austin

for a couple of years was a Maharashtrian guy.

So, my- if you like appreciation

for other parts of India, expanded during my time

in the US than while I was here.

Even though as I was saying at the beginning

I did spend summer vacations in Baroda

and Calcutta and places like that.

But, I didn’t really spend too much time on the cultural side

and artistic side and things like that.

So, in that sense I didn’t have if you like

kind of more all round kind of appreciation for non-technical.

You are a Computer nerd.

Yeah, especially during IIT days,

but even before you know it’s not like I tried to pursue,

I don’t know, Carnatic music

or Western music or any of those sorts of things,

but later of course, more because of my wife,

my kids wound up getting all sorts of stuff

forced on them to begin with at least.

And then of course, they started liking it and

so, they went quite a bit into the arts compared

to my own upbringing and so on.

So, as a as a as an ex-IBM or I should

I have to ask you this- Sure.

what parables do you see between IIT Madras

and IBM as an organization, do you see any?

Interesting, I had not thought about.

I mean I don’t know maybe from a leadership viewpoint or from-

See of course, the difference is one is a commercial

organization in the case of IBM and of course,

since in my case at least I have been all my life

in the IBM Research Division in many ways that’s like

being in academia and of course, you are a great example of a

person who is spanned both sides.

In my case in a formal sense I have not been a

faculty member anywhere although for the last three years

and continuing into the next three years,

I have this position as a distinguished visiting professor at

one of China’s pre-eminent universities namely Tsinghua University.

So, in terms of IIT of course,

the great thing that has happened long after I left

is the establishment of the IITM Research Park

and the increased focus in faculty members also getting involved in

trying to get some of their research output

getting commercialized and so on.

So, in in such ways you could say that

there is more similarity now between

let’s say IIT Madras and IBM research people

because as research people we have had to also have our challenge,

we have had to face the challenge of doing

technology transfer of the research ideas into IBM products.

So, in some ways that’s like academics

who are doing research work, trying to make their ideas

see the light of day and so,

now there is more such similarity

if you like between IBM and IIT Madras.

I don’t know if you have some other kinds of things in mind.

No, I think you know I I just think they are about

top class organizations.

Yeah of course, that that’s definitely the case Yeah.

independent of the its academic focus or a

product kind of focus or trying to move the state of the art

in a dramatic way in certain dimensions and so on. Right.

So, of course, you received your distinguished

Alumnus Award a few years ago. 2003.

2003. Yeah.

What was your I mean reaction

when you first learned that you were receiving the award

and then you actually received the award

what what were your memories?

I was quite pleased obviously, you know it is like

nice to hear from your alma mater that they think

you have done something you know worthy of that kind of

honour being bestowed on you,

but I was unsure whether the nominal department

that I was attached to namely Chemical Engineering

would feel excited about this or not because

I didn’t really continue that area of work or study and so on,

after I left the campus.

But, then again I thought Computer Science people

might not feel they have any special attachment

to you especially because by that time I think if my

memory serves me right both Mahabala and Muthu Krishnan

were no longer regular faculty members here.

Muthu might have been still an adjunct faculty member,

I am not sure and I did not know too many of the other people

that long after I left gotten into Computer Science.

So, if my memory serves me right actually somebody from

Chemical Engineering came and handed me the-

Yeah, that’s a tradition that the Head of the Department

from which you have graduated has to read your citation and stuff. Yeah.

So, it was nice.

Of course, I would have been even happier had that award

come the previous year because for the first time

we had our reunion that was my Silver Reunion 2002.

So, it did not happen that year even though

the application had been put in by some colleague of mine.

So, that would have been nice because then you know

because at that time unlike now I think the awards used to be

given out during these sorts of reunions in December. Ok.

So, I was thinking wow, wouldn't it have been nice

if you know it was done with about 85 or

so of the 250 graduates

so, 77 year. Yeah, we still announce the awards at the reunion,

but the they are actual giving up the award. I see. I see.

Is in April in on institute.

Yeah so, but of course, because there are lot of my classmates

who are still in Chennai who never even left Chennai in terms of

once I started working and so on moving somewhere else.

So, quite a good number of my classmates

did attend the award function

and so, it was thrilling and my parents also were there

and even my sister came and so on.

So, but my family was not here, meaning my immediate family.

But, they were with me when we had the Silver Reunion.

So, that is the only time in fact, both my kids

and my wife attended the reunions because

they didn’t come for the subsequent 30th, 35th, so on reunions.

And, I myself didn’t attend after the 30th reunion,

the 35th and the 40th ones,

but we are going to have a cruise come

end of March in the US,

whole bunch of people are coming for that.

So, I am looking forward to that.

And how about the IBM fellowship, I mean how was that?

So, that was very nice that happened in 1997.

So, just about 15 years after I joined the companies

when that happened and that was quite a

thrilling thing for me to see

that kind of recognition coming especially

because while it is not a record in terms of the number of years

after one joins the company to get the IBM fellowship,

its less than the average number of years.

So, so in that sense I really felt extremely happy about that especially

since for an IBM-er who has chosen even to this day to be a non-manager

this is like the pinnacle of technical career in IBM to get the IBM fellowship.

So, and I also had more or less stuck to the same area of work

instead of moving even as a technical person to dramatically

different areas as some people do.

And, so, for me that award and the year before

the ACM SIGMOD Innovation Award which is given for database people

were really you know extremely pleasing kinds of

recognition to be offered by the community of

database people across the globe in the case of the

1996 ACM SIGMOD Award in 97 by IBM people,

the immigrant fellowships so.

So, going back to your student days did you have

any run-ins with the administration?

Did you ever get to meet the directors?

I don’t think I had any

slaps on my wrist by administration

because of any bad behaviour or anything.

I might have actually met the Deputy Director,

Professor Sampath used to be the Deputy Director

and he had of course, Electrical Engineering kind of

background having got his Masters at Stanford.

But, in terms of both Professor Ramachandran,

who was the Director when I joined and a few years later

when Professor Pandalai took over,

I am not sure if I even met them once each one.

At least I don’t recall now, although I used to be extremely

active in terms of not just campus kinds of activities,

I was the Secretary of the Computer Club in my fourth year

and the President of the Computer Club in the fifth year.

And, I used to interact with even people outside of IIT

that were big name people in the Computer Science area

people that were considered like pioneers;

Professor Nataraj I mean Colonel Natarajan

whose two kids were juniors of mine here

and who also subsequently came to UT Austin to do their PhDs,

and also professor Narasimhan

who ran on the Computer group in TIFR

and later when this National Centre for

Software and Computer Technologies

was formed it was called NCSDCT.

And, there was Major General Bala Subramanyam

these three people were even though they were not by training

Computer Science people they were one of the they were as

amongst a small number of people who had gotten into

the Computer field in India early on and so

I was in that sense very active even though

I wasn’t in a formal sense a Computer Science person.

And, so, in that sense I did, you know,

network a lot and things like that which all helped me later on

and also made me feel in many ways attached to India.

Even though IBM as a company had left India in 1978,

at the same time that Coca Cola left, and IBM

didn’t come back to India until 1992 and even then it came back

as a joint venture with the Tata’s.

But even during that 78 to 92 period,

almost on every trip I made to India, I tried to go give talks

both at universities as well as in various commercial establishments.

And, so, I kept up my contacts with the Computer

community in particular in India during my entire professional career.

And of course, it all became even more serious

when in June 2006 I came to India as the

IBM India Chief Scientist, a position they created

which didn’t exist before and and initially

it was supposed to be for 24 months

but then they extended it for 8 more months.

So, until January, 2009, I was based in Bangalore

and I took it upon myself during that period to not only

go around colleges big ones,

but even small ones and also to go to other companies

and talk about long term technical careers

and how they are important for us to move beyond

doing mundane work to you know,

move of the food chain and do more innovative work

and things like that and establish the notion of a

technical ladder and not make everybody think

if they do not become managers

they haven’t made it in life.

So, in your graduating class

how many went abroad for higher studies? What percent of?

My recollection is that out of the 250 or so,

out of which strangely enough there were only three women

maybe about one-fourth went abroad.

Later on of course, even some of the other people showed up,

but of course, that has changed dramatically

from what I gather a lot. 100 percent.

Yeah. So, that is a good thing and, but then that concern

I had was and I used to talk about this can India become an

innovation superpower because this idea of giving

such a presentation came up because

the UC Santa Cruz people had a South Asian kind of program

and they were asking people to come

and talk about India related topics

and this happened during my India tenure in Bangalore.

So, my point was even if the brain drain is not happening,

does that mean that these people that would have

otherwise gone abroad are they still pursuing an academic

career in terms of at least getting degrees like Masters and PhD

are or they just merely going into the professional

career path or as it used to happen even during my time

a good percentage of these people go in for MBAs

at IIMs and then they no longer even work as technical people. Right.

They become management material.

So, I felt that it probably was a problem for both

the foreign countries that used to benefit from

Indians going abroad as well as India because

people just had these easy to get jobs

especially when IT became so dominant in the

Indian scene even non-Computer Science

background people were able to get IT jobs.

I felt that in some sense it didn’t help

anybody that not enough of the people

who are pursuing higher studies and doing research.

I don’t know what your.

I think there is there is a fine balance you have to strike

somewhere I think maybe right now it’s too low.

But, was that like a scientific process for selecting universities,

you know I remember this tapping?

was a was a very very systematic exercise.

The students used to get together and divide up the Universities and. No.

So, in my time there wasn’t this notion of people going

and writing GRE and coming back and recalling

what the questions were and then preparing this

whatever this binder kind of thing, I didn’t even know

that that was being done after I left.

I don’t know after how long after I left

and that this had become like a way in

which a lot of the people here prepared for-

Actually what I am talking about is selection of the university.

No, no I I understand.

So, so this particular thing I didn’t know about,

but I also found out unlike in my time that subsequently

there was this attempt to divvy up who applies to which university.

To my knowledge in my time there was no such thing.

So, the level of sophistication if you like of trying to make sure

that the the top rankers don’t wind up applying to gazillion

universities and they all give them admission.

And then the each one is able to go to only one university in the end

and then they the process mess up the lives for the

sort of the next ring kind of students,

I don’t think that level of sophistication was applied in

my time for people to

try to make it a win-win for at least a significant

number of people in the upper ranks if you like.

So, I was- when I later on found out about all that I was like wow,

these guys have made it into an art form how to-

A science not even.

But then I also at the same time started hearing

from some of the US University people, meaning faculty members

that they had come to know about this and

so, they stopped giving importance to the GREs course of

especially people from institutions like IIT Madras

and maybe the other IITs also and they started

relying more and more on the reference letters from the faculty here

as being more reliable indicators of how good these people are.

You mentioned that there were hardly any female students Yeah.

when you were here.

So, how did that affect you after you graduated?

Well, I don’t know about after graduation,

but during the time in contrast to what the story was at

IIT Madras I used to feel very envious of the

guys across the street in Guindy Engineering,

where if my memory shows me right in all of Madras University

that was the only Engineering College where women were admitted.

So, they had something like 50 women in their

batch that came in in 72 whereas,

we had 3 women and so, I was like this is unfair.

I don’t think it affected me in any way seriously.

No, but I also like I said I got too engrossed in

all this Computer Science thing

so, I was not pursuing in any romantic way any of these women.

So, had I been you know motivated differently

maybe I would have felt even-

So, you are romancing the silicon so-

Yeah, not even the silicon more software right

because I wasn’t really a hardware kind of guy.

So, yeah so, and I was quite crazy in many ways like

that even when I went to,

I remember one time to Baroda for my

Summer Internship to the refinery in Baroda.

I still did it as a Chemical Engineer guy, believe it or not.

One day I went to Ahmadabad, instead of spending the

day sightseeing I went to the library there and started looking at

what they have in terms of Computer Science books and such.

So, in that in many ways like that it was quite

an abnormal case.

Did you have an industry tour when you were student?

Did you go? No.

Like All India.

I don’t even recall such a thing being done.

There was one yeah yeah. Did you have it?

Really? I didn’t even know. So, we went to Goa and supposedly to

Chemical factories which we never went near,

but yeah we went all over the place.

Ok, somehow I don’t recall my making a conscious

decision not to go on such a thing,

so, but one thing that I do remember ok.

So, that is in going back to one of your earlier questions.

I was in the Air Force Wing of NCC and I also

I think that might have been during

my pre-university day in Loyola.

What was the other thing?

National Service Core, NSC.

So, I took part in that too.

So, as part of this NCC Air Force Wing in IIT,

we were taken on a camp trip to Bangalore

and as part of that I forget now how long it was

10 days or whatever stay in the

Madras Engineering Service or some

such unit of the Army I think.

That’s where in their bunkers or

whatever is where we were put up,

we were given a joyride.

in an aircraft.

So, that is the only time I had ever been on an aircraft

until I was flying from here to Delhi to

Tehran to Paris to New York to Austin. Wow.

On my trip out of India for the first time

and I had never gone abroad also.

So, for me all this was like totally

different kind of experience.

And, but at the same time I should say that when I

was going to Austin all I knew in terms of even

Texas as a whole was based on the movies

I saw here in OAT right, western movies.

And so, I was expecting Austin to be like any other city

in Texas and it was such a pleasant surprise to go there

and find that Austin is so different – hill country, greenery, river, Yeah.

non-redneck kind of place because it was primarily

at the time a university town and a capital of the state.

We just spent 3 days there to the end of December early there.

Wow, nice.

So, so in many such ways for me the IIT life

and what it brought about in terms of my future and so on

those are extremely pleasant memories and

things that I appreciate a lot.

And, I constantly talk about not just IIT by the way.

Whenever I see Germans, especially Germans

who come from the western part of Germany

I don’t forget to acknowledge what that country

did to my career and future and so on.

In particular, I remember the German Minister

for Economic Cooperation I think there is a

photo of that person in the the. Collection.

You have in the Heritage Centre,

he in his remarks during the inauguration of the

Computer Centre which happened a few months

after the actual operational usage of the Computer Centre started.

He said not too many

German, West German Universities at that time

could boast of having such a machine.

Even though, when we now look back its crazy

this machine had 256 K of memory

and it took something like 7 to 8 hours for

a compilation to be done of the program

you had to punch in cards and. All FORTRAN, right?

Yeah. So, but the fact that West Germans

you know didn't give priority to all their universities

before donating machines to institutions abroad

is something that, at least in my life

came at the right time and made a huge difference

as to what I chose to pursue as a result of my exposure

starting from my second year to that mainframe. Right.

So, we should probably conclude. Sure, thank you.

Thanks for taking the time and thanks to Kumaran

and the others for giving me this opportunity to talk about

and reminisce about my past year.

Thank you.

Thanks Mohan.

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