Prof. J.B. Majhi in conversation with Prof. Subrahmanyam
Yes, Dr. Majhi, welcome to this programme organized by the
Heritage Centre of IIT Madras.
The main purpose of...is to show, to learn from you
the history of the Department of Physics,
after you joined in 1967.
So if you can, kindly brief us. Yeah.
When you joined how the department was, with reference to its
programmes like Ph. D., M. Sc.
and the type of research,
and the people you have been interacting with.
Yeah, ok, good evening everybody.
So, as suggested by the Heritage Centre, I will briefly outline
my talk in three groups, before joining IIT,
then in the IIT, activities
and after leaving IIT, means after retirement, ok.
So, I was born in Berhampur, a small town in Orissa,
I think you also know that. Yes.
My primary education, middle class, up to B. Sc., I was in Berhampur.
So, I came to IIT straight from Berhampur to this place,
it was really difficult for me, because when
a person comes from a small place to a bigger city,
you get a shock first,
Yeah. so I heard that...
Is it a shock of the language?
Is it a shock of the culture, is it a shock of the food? Everything.
I didn’t know Tamil. Ok.
And also, the culture was little different,
Ok. even the food habits are different.
So...but I could adjust, in the short time, that’s ok. That’s good.
Its ok...anyway, Berhampur I will tell a little bit ok.
My childhood...see my father was a teacher,
I come from a teacher family, my brother is a teacher,
father is a teacher, I am a teacher, ok.
So, my father used...he was the district teacher means,
so what is that called I don’t know,
he used to move from one place to another,
wherever the district people ask him to go there, like that.
So, my education, primary education was a problem,
because every one year, two years, he used to go to a different place.
So my uncle took the responsibility to educate me. Good.
So my mother...mother’s brother,
she nicely left with my uncle and
went to...went my father wherever they goes to.
So my education started with my uncle’s house,
from primary school.
The primary school was very close to our street only,
I used to just walk down, ok,
we are only four, five students at that time.
It was a municipal school.
So they were just starting.
So I studied up to 3rd class,
then I have to go to another middle
school or something, where I have 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th.
So that was a little away, maybe one kilometre away.
That was a training school.
So its a government school. Ok.
So, I studied there up to 7th.
Somehow I was studying well,
so I got some fellowship also, after 7th there used to be a
scholarship examination. Great.
So. I got it, and of course, it was a meagre amount only,
some...I don’t know, 15 or 20 rupees, but it was encouraging.
In those days. In those days. Ok.
And also I needed money at that time
because my uncle also was a school teacher, and
so that helped me to I think...motivated me to
go to higher and higher classes. Good.
Then after 7th I have to go to high school,
high school is a missionary schoonl, is called Queen
Queen Mission School.
So there I studied from 8th to 11th, at that time
11th was there, not 12th. Yeah. Ok.
Somehow I got a first class in 11th, at that time
first class means everybody used to come and...it was great.
Here nowadays I see the marks people children get, above 90 only.
Yeah. And, there if you get 60, it is a great thing.
Those So that helped me to get another scholarship
in the college education.
So, because my uncle also was telling, "After high school
I cannot teach you, I don’t have funds also."
So I said, "I got scholarship,"
"But anyway you...scholarship, you go to your place."
So I went to my parents' place, that is another street only,
its very...all in Berhampur only. Ok.
So, somehow I managed to join the college.
At that time, it was I. Sc. and B. Sc. Yes.
2 years I. Sc. and 2 years B. Sc.
I managed up to B. Sc. Very good.
With a little struggling and all,
and then after B. Sc., what to do?
There was no M. Sc. in that Khallikote College, ok,
it is a Khallikote college...is a big college,
but at that time, there were no M. Sc. in Khallikote College.
I have to go to...outside, either go to Utkal University, Ravenshaw College,
or I have to come to IIT,
I applied both the places,
no at that time, I was having short of funds.
So I said, "I will work for some time."
I...same college, I joined as a demonstrator. Ok.
For one year, collected some money.
At that time the salary was I think 250 or something...anyway.
250 rupees in those days is a big money. Its a good...good amount Yeah.
So I collected some money to go for higher studies.
So my uncle also agreed and my
brother...elder brother who was also teacher. Ok.
He said, "Ok, we will get some fund,
I will also save give you some funds you can join M. Sc."
So one year I was...the demonstrator
to the Khallikote college, then...then I started thinking where to go. Ok.
B. Sc...after B. Sc., I tried for a JEE IIT ok,
but I failed, I couldn’t get it.
At that time the question paper also was very tough.
And there were. Even now it is tough.
Very tough and there was drawing in that.
Yes. So I didn’t know anything about drawing and all.
So you have to write drawing, as well as the questions but
anyway I am not very sorry, its ok,
I tried once, I didn’t pass, then the other choice was also tried,
a Engineering College in Rourkela, that is REC,
it was just starting.
Ok, just went as far as my grades are concerned, it was ok.
But they...at that time they have to have physical fitness also.
Ok. I was lean and I was more lean.
So I was disqualified on the physical...
then I was So to say, you have been maintaining this physique,
right from the beginning. I think you have seen me from...
So, that was a little shock for me.
So I could not be an engineer ok,
then the other choice was to go for science, ok.
So, to go for science, I have to do M. Sc.
So either go to Ravenshaw, which is near Cuttack.
Yeah, it is near to Cuttack, yes. it is Cuttack.
Or you have to go to...[Indistinct Dialogue] or somewhere ok.
So I think at that time only Ravenshaw College was there,
Khallikote College, then there was another Parlakhemundi College,
these three colleges were there.
But Khallikote...as I said, there was no M. Sc.,
so I applied to...at that time I see this advertisement from IIT.
IIT Madras. They are starting M. Sc., my...I was in the second batch, M. Sc.
B. Tech. was there '59,
but M. Sc. started only in...I joined '63, '62 they started.
Very good. So already one batch was studying.
So I applied...I got the admission in both the places,
but then I had to decide where to go.
So my friend said IIT is the bigger institute,
anyway you are going out of your native...
native place, you have to spend
wherever you go, you have to stay in a hostel,
almost it may come in the...financially, it may be same
whether you stay in Madras or in...
So, I was...hesitant, where to go, finally
I decided, ok let me go to IIT Madras
and But, one question,
at that time IIT Kharagpur also...is much nearer to you.
Kharagpur. Did you try?
I...I didn’t know whether there is a M. Sc. there or something. Ok.
I don’t know, at that time. So.
so IIT Madras... But, this I...this I saw in the newspaper and just applied.
Ok. My friends also asked...advised me to apply just like that.
So it is 1963. '63 that was.
You came from. So at that time there was no entrance test for M. Sc.
Ok, just walking. Luckily maybe...maybe this marks,
B. Sc. marks they called me, for a simple interview like that,
Ok. before admission they
they want to chit chat and say you are fit or not.
Ok.
So I somehow...I managed. Who was the chairman of the department at that time?
At that time, Professor Ramasastry was the HOD. Ramasastry. Ramasastry was there. Ok.
He was the HOD, he joined from beginning, '50...'59. He was coming from IIT Kharagpur at that time.
He came from IIT Kharagpur. Yes.
And then Ramaseshan also, he had joined. Ramaseshan who...
Professor who came from Institute of Science. Later on went back to
He came from Institute of Science Bangalore.
But, he stayed for only one or two years and went off as it... and went back to National Aeronautical Laboratories.
So from beginning, Ramasastry was there,
and he became my guide also, afterwards Ph. D. guide. Ph. D. guide. Exactly, yes.
So, they were there, somehow I could manage.
So how was your days in M. Sc. in IIT Madras?
So, a little bit I want to say about my journey from Berhampur to Chennai. That’s good.
Ok. Because, I was new and I didn’t know anybody in Chennai, no language,
so luckily there was one friend who was studying AMIE.
So there, at that time, lot of Oria people used to come from...studying AMIE,
there were no engineering colleges,
now plenty of engineering colleges are there
In Orissa, some seats are even vacant.
But at that time, only very few engineering...Rourkela, Burla,
and maybe one more like that.
So, many people used to come to...Oria people come to study AMIE
that’s a...you know, that is a...
engineering college, now its not very popular.
So, one fellow was there, his name was
again Aditya Kumar Pattnaik,
your son’s name. Ok.
So I knew only him, he also used to encourage me.
He said, "You come to Madras, I will take care of you."
Because I can’t come straight to IIT, I don’t know where the IIT is,
from station how to come,
and the language problem, he said, "You come,
I will pick you up from station, I will take to my room."
He was already established there. Ok.
And I will bring next day to IIT and put you... Wonderful.
and that was a very good gesture for me,
and there was another friend, who was doing...what is that, Chromepet,
there was...he was doing after B. Sc. you know,
I stayed in Berhampur for one more year.
He joined the Chromepet...that what is that
There is one Madras Institute of Technology, MIT. MIT
He joined as a...he also told me
you..."When you come to Chennai, you come to my..."
But Chromepet is quite far from that,
so I preferred to meet this man, Aditya,
he...luckily what happened, at that time there was only two trains,
one is that Madras Mail Yes.
The famous Madras Mail. Another is a...I think Coromandel was there and I don’t know
No, Coromandel was not there. Not there, and there was...one the Express was there.
So, I took the Mail.
That was a very popular Mail and is a good...
I don’t know how I came, maybe second class somewhere
ordinary compartment or something like that.
Those days we never had reservation.
So, I could manage to come.
But when I got down in station,
he was missing, I was looking for him.
That was very difficult for me.
But, he gave me instruction, "Suppose I can’t come,"
you...he has given me address,
its very near, he was in Vepery somewhere.
Vepery Two-three kilometre.
"You take a rikshaw, come there,
and I will, in case I can’t come to station."
So, it happened
so, because this is the Mail, reaches Chennai in...early mornings.
Around 4 o’ clock. 4 o’ clock.
So I don’t expect him to come also, it happens sometimes.
So, I stayed in the... I would like to say one thing,
Mail is the only one which has not changed
even after the Second World War, Yeah.
till today. Very reliable.
The time of its arrival in Chennai. Yeah.
The time of its departure. Yes, very very reliable.
Great. Even now also I prefer to go by Mail.
Yes. Because Mail reaches Berhampur in a proper time.
In the evening, but Coromandel...midnight both way, Yes.
this way and that way, it is in midnight,
I prefer to go So you reached Central, and then?
Central...and I was looking for him, then I said, "It is still dark, what to do."
So I stayed for some time in the station, Till it is getting.
then I took...I become a little brave,
let me start my journey, at that time, you know these rikshaw walas...
even that auto was not available that time, ordinary rikshaw. Only rikshaw.
Rikshaw, and even hand pulling...people pulling,
So, I took I think cycle rikshaw something, yeah,
I...I didn’t know how to communicate with that rikshaw fellow.
I showed that address, that is written in... He speaks only Telugu and Tamil
That was written in English,
so he couldn’t understand.
But I said...Vepery means...he said, "Ok, I will take you, don’t worry,"
the house number was there. I reached there,
he was anxiously waiting for me.
Very good. So, he took a referral and then,
he brought to...to IIT and then joined.
So that was something interesting, I...
so that gave me some braveness that...
So two years passed after your M. Sc.? Yeah.
You passed out, Then I... and who were the teachers
who were teaching you at that time, 1963?
So I...they put me in Godavari Hostel. Godavari.
Godavari, because at that time only Krishna, Cauvery
was there, and Godavari was just
newly coming Godavari and... Ok, so it was a new hostel for you.
New hostel. I still remember the room number 109 something. 109.
And it happens that later I became Assistant Warden of the same hostel.
Its a very nice thing to do.
So, M. Sc. I...two years, ok.
Yeah, but who were the teachers with you? Yeah.
So, let me see. Ramasastry was there.
Ramasastry was teaching us
solid state physics and semiconductor physics.
And Professor Srinivasan also might be there.
R. Srinivsan. R. Srinivasan. Is the quantum mechanics...
were very good teachers, great teachers.
Swaminathan also might be there.
Swaminathan was teaching some...mathematical physics. Yes.
And . Ramanamurthi was there teaching Ramanamurthi X-rays
X-ray and solid state physics. And who were the other old teachers?
Ramaji Rao, classical mechanics. Yes.
And, then pagdi man what is his name?
Ramabhadran. Ramabhadran.
Electromagnetic theory and relativity, it was nice,
all the teachers were very devoted, and I really like the teaching. Ok.
One thing I want to say was...Professor R. Srinivasan,
he will just come with a chalk,
he will start exactly in time, suppose 10 to 11, exactly he will come,
start immediately, and when he finishes the class,
he finishes the topic, he finishes the chalk and goes.
I was wondering how he adjusting all this thing, wonderful teacher
He was one of the great teachers. and great teacher.
Ok that...so that...and Ramasastry is different type, he will come last class only.
That is 11 to 12, ok, and we don’t know when he will end,
that is another interesting thing.
He will come, slowly he will come, slowly he will start,
but he sometimes, he comes without preparation with things and teaches,
but whatever he teaches you remember,
is a from his practice I mean
These are all the great teachers. Practical things he is more of a practical nature.
So, I really learnt how to do practical experiment from him,
that I have to be understand. Ok.
And, we don’t know, we can’t say,
"Sir time is up" and because it was a difficult things,
so sometimes so it goes up to 1 o’ clock, we miss our lunch.
So again you have to come for the lab,
so it was...that is a peculiar thing.
And, Ramaji Rao, you know, he used to talk philosophy,
someone immediately he will stop,
he will talk something philosophy, and again
come down and do something.
So that is another peculiar, you know
and Ramabhadran is typical you know...
Yeah, Ramabhadran. He was there when you came?
I was there...he was there, all these people were there
when I was there...except He is a very traditional teaching.
He is very principled and disciplined, like that
So, the yeah then X-ray is a our Ram...what is that? Ramanamurthi.
Ramanamurthi "Arre baba," he will say very nicely,
he says he always tell about his village and all you see
"I came from very hard work, you should work hard." Yeah, he is one example.
He used to teach us X-ray as well as experimental techniques.
Experimental techniques. Techniques ok.
Ok. So like that, I had a very good teacher in M. Sc. ok,
any other thing I forgot to you ok. You you you you I think you have you completed M. Sc.
by '65. '65, '63 to '65. '65
Ok, in the hostel life, you know it was... You were there in Godavari
and... Godavari,
it used to have its own mess. So I told no,
initially I had a little problem about the food habits.
Because, here everything is sour no, they give
what is that...curd and all, everything they.
So, I...I slowly I had to adjust...
You also might have had a problem with your timing
because, in Berhampur and Orissa,
you ate lunch around...I mean you eat dinner around
That’s another interesting thing. 11’ o clock in the evening.
Here you have to eat at 6 o’ clock to 7 o’ clock. At 7.
Which is not even your evening tea time. So I am not hungry at all.
So I have to wait at least 8 o’ clock,
by the time, things will be over.
So they say "If you come late, you have to ask for late dinner."
Late meals. ok late meals. Yeah, yeah.
So sometimes I have to say force..."Ok put me for late meals, ok."
And they will put in the plate and cover with another plate
they will write your Room number. Name.
oh Room number right.
Room number because this room number
is more important than name I think. Ok.
So I sometimes...I miss that also,
when I open the top, you have...nothing will be there.
Somebody else might have come later and taken that food also,
and sometimes maybe your rice and sambar will be there.
No... Let me ask you one question,
How much used to be the mess bill per month in those days?
Those days it was very cheap maybe.
Maybe. Maybe about 20, 25, 30 rupees?
May be 30, 40 rupees like that. 30, 40 rupees.
But that also was too much for us.
Yeah, but so to say, the rupee value. But still get food was good,
Yeah. slowly I liked it, because it was nice.
So, another...there used to be a mess committee also.
Student. So 1965, you completed your Masters. Yes.
Then what did you do?
Because you had all the summer vacation. Yes
You went home. so went home.
Then I wanted to apply for research.
In between I got lot of three, four months' gap, ok.
So, I finished in June or July no.
1965, it should be July.
July.
then August, September, October,
the research scholar too was in October something,
so what will I do these three months?
I thought if suppose I don’t get Ph. D.,
I mean research fellowship, what will I do?
So let me join some local college here.
I joined again Khallikote College as a Lecturer.
Khallikote College, the place where you have been doing your... Yeah.
They were happy to take me.
Because I was student there. Ok.
So...but I told them, "Suppose I get fellowship, I may go."
So you have been truthful right through your career,
right through your life. Yeah yeah.
You did not hide any information.
No no. Very nice, ok.
So, so after 3 months, no, I had to leave that college.
Then I got this fellowship, ok.
Then the... How much was the fellowship in 1965?
250 or something 250 rupees, huge money.
And during my M. Sc. also, I got that small fellowship. Fellowship.
They used to be merit come means Yes.
so I was I was really lucky, to get some small fellowship everywhere,
so that I could continue my education. Very nice.
Ok that’s one good thing, ok.
So somehow I got the scholarship here,
so I had to leave that...
so I got a little problem with the administrators,
they say, "You can’t leave like this,
without giving what is prior
information," what is that...of notice that you will be leaving.
So but luckily, the...the Chairman of that,
he was a very kind man...my...they are known to my family.
So my brother, and my...my father’s brother,
they went to the Chairman...[Inaudible Dialogue]
So, you could come out and... I could come out.
Joined in 1965 October in IIT Madras as a Research Scholar. As a Research Scholar.
So With whom did you get registered?
I registered with Professor Ramasastry. Ramasastry.
So I was there at '65 to '67 as the Research Scholar, As the Research Scholar
at that time the other small...what is that...
what is that...available for joining as STA. Yeah,
some scheme was there, because, There was a opening scheme. the department is still
wanted some technical people, Ok.
and Ramasastry said, "Why don’t you join as a senior. As a senior technical assistant.
And do your...continue your Ph. D., ok.
So that way, I joined 1967. '67, I joined.
You joined as a Senior Technical Assistant. A Research Scholar...as a Research Scholar.
No, '65 as a Research Scholar. No no '65 as a Research Scholar
'65 to '67 as a Ph. D. Research Scholar,
'67. After '67, I joined the staff.
Senior Technical Assistant.
So my Ph. D. work became delayed now
because I have to do other work also, ok.
What was the assignment given to you as a STA? Assignment at that time,
see, suddenly Professor Ramasastry gave me a class
to teach M. Sc. Chemistry people ok,
some Physics they have, ok. Ok.
That’s a...maybe that’s a...just like we had, when I studied M. Sc.,
we had a course in Mathematics,
Professor Achuthan used to take. Ok.
Like that there used to be
Interdisciplinary subjects. Interdisciplinary subjects,
that’s a good thing actually.
So I enjoyed that teaching, without much experience Teaching Physics to the Chemistry people.
Chemistry people. Masters.
Some of my students still, I see, they are
teachers in Central School. Ok.
So we still...whenever I see... Great.
So that’s a good thing, ok.
So like that I finished my M. Sc., then two years of research,
and then...then started STA, then after that
You became Lecturer in 1977. I got...'77
because at that time, unless you have Ph. D., you don’t get a
Lecturer post. Ok.
So I had to wait, and because I had to do this teaching and
lab work, my work also got delayed.
And you know Ram sir is the task master,
he won’t...unless you do a perfect job,
he won’t accept it. Yes.
So its ok. How many faculty were there in those days?
When you joined as a...as a...as a staff.
Staff, I told already my teachers Yeah.
they are there, and then, later on who came...
Y. S. Rao might have joined.
Professor Y. V. G. S. Murthi was there. Y. V. G. S. Murthi.
Professor Gopalam was there. Gopalam.
They joined very early, Professor... And S. B. S. Sastry.
Professor S. B. S. Sastry. Maha Seshsayee Maha Seshsayee also...that yes
Around that time. He joined little later.
Yeah. Yes K. V. Reddy.
K. V. Reddy was there from the beginning
And '77 means it should be K. V. S. Rama Rao.
K. V. S. Rama Rao, yeah joined little later, Must be very fresh.
Yeah yeah, then our Y. Syamasundara Rao.
Y. S. Rao, Syamasundara Rao. Y. S. Rao, they are...Acharyulu
B. S. V. S. R. Acharyulu B. S. V. Acharyulu...
There were... How about B. Subrahmanyam?
B. Subrahmanyam also came bit late,
but he was also there for very long time. So, to say...
Yeah By 1977, the department is more or less
formed with these people, to run the department as well as the...
Really, I should say, they have sacrificed their thing
for the department. Ok.
I don’t say the younger generation are not doing,
they are also, but in the beginning, when there are no infrastructure...
Yeah, when you say no infrastructure
what is...what was available at that time?
For example, let me tell about our group,
Yes. Yes. small group, Semiconductor.
Yes. So when I started with Ramasastry,
we didn’t have any material at all,
he got some few samples, from abroad
when he visited what is that University of... Illinois. Illinois.
Where Professor Bardin was working.
Bardin...that is another interesting thing, He had been there for about a couple of months. yeah couple of months.
and, so he, when he...he when he visited his lab,
they were in Bell Labs no, Bardin was working in Bell Lab,
but he was also teaching in the Illinois. Illinois.
So he met him and had discussion. By that time Bardin already was a Nobel laureate.
Nobel laureate. 1977.
Yeah yeah he...he came no, he came to... He is already.
When did he '73 he visit '73 he visited our
visit our department, because Ramasastry
was known to him, and they arranged a Special Convocation.
And also, we had a small conference like thing...
He was awarded the Honoris...Doc...Causa Honoris...
Yeah, in '73. By IIT Madras.
IIT Madras, that’s a great thing to meet a Nobel laureate.
He is a double Nobel laureate, if I remember Yeah, yeah he
He got two Nobel prizes. One for the semi conductor,
One for the invention of transistor, the other for the super conductors. I think
Super conductor, yes so that’s
So you had a chance to meet a wonderful man in semiconductors.
Bardin. Yes that’s really great to see him and discuss with him.
Dr. Bardin. Yeah he was very nice gentleman
and we had a good time.
So that is one...
By the time you finished your Doctorate, 1977 Don’t know
I finished only '76, Ok.
but I was in almost in the verge of...
he visited the department. Visited, yeah.
So, that was How much time did he spend in the department?
I mean with us, in IIT.
Maybe a week or something, I don’t About a week.
exactly...Ramasastry forced him
to visit our department meet all the faculty
and I think he gave a talk also.
This...his experience and all,
how they invented the transistor. Yes.
It is very interesting.
So here, he also told, see
you will not have a very high, I mean what is that
always...for infrastructure and
very good instruments to discover something,
but he say no no we did in a very humble way,
you might have seen the picture no, of the Yes.
transistor invention, how crude it looks. Yes.
So so could do, if...if you have will, you can do something.
So...that so, that’s a good thing actually.
Very good. That’s not necessary always you should have a
big infrastructure to do something.
What do you find? You...you have supernnuated in 2002.
1973 to 2002 is almost about 20, say 30 years.
Yeah, I spent nearly...yeah 30...30. Yeah 30 years.
more than 30 years, yeah. In the 30 years, the...the...the
the whole science has changed,
now infrastructure is more important than the ideas. Yeah yeah
now of course, without infrastructure you can’t do anything, yeah.
And, so what you have to do is, when you are doing research,
there was not much infrastructure.
We have to build our own equipment, ok
small-scale, for example What was available in the department at that time?
An X-ray diffractometer?
X-ray was there and, Because with Ramanamurthy.
Ramasastry bought some good oscilloscopes,
HP oscilloscope, which was...I used for my field of experiment.
Therefore one thing. There used to be one...Czochralski Crystal Puller.
If I remember correctly the silicon That was silicon,
but it didn’t work really actually You didn't use it, ok.
It was the...I don’t know,
they didn’t send a good equipment,
because its useful for research, that is a fabrication for... Its actually a pilot plant.
It is for industry that is used.
Yes. See we can’t use the industrial unit,
we don’t have so much of material to put that. Exactly.
So that was a waste actually,
planning I would say it was not good. Ok.
They should have got a smaller one.
But there used to be Professor Koch,
who...who has come all the way from Germany
with all this equipment. Yeah yeah yeah.
How was your interaction with him?
So, he taught us also semiconductor in the class.
We can...see in M. Sc. we had three specialization,
one is X-ray, semiconductor physics and microwave
So I took Microwave used to be taken care by Professor
Shobhanadri. Shobhanadri, yeah I forgot to mention,
he's also from beginning, Shobhanadri. I think he and Professor
Ramasastry, R. Srinivasan joined almost at the same time.
Same time I think Its around the same time.
Yeah, same time.
So, he used to take also electronics lab.
Our Shobhanadri. Wonderful.
And, it was good. What was your research topic?
My research topic is actually mine thing was
field effector and semiconductor.
Ok.
Mostly whatever samples are
available were brought by Professor Ramasastry.
Few silicon wafers, few germanium wafers
I used to cut and...with the diamond curve,
I used to take the help of glass flowing section.
Glass flowing. They used to cut glass.
So the silicon crystals also can be cut by glass.
So that also technique I learn, how to cut this...
putting a scale and putting that...
it was a nice experience, to...in earlier days.
So I used to cut this,
then I have to do simple oxidation.
You might have seen some of our, what is that?
Oxidation furnaces.
furnace built by us,
that is quartz tube, of about two, three inches.
We had a good glass...glass flowing section. In those days.
Who is that person, who is a foreman? Venugopal.
Venugopal, before that. Before that is
Kumaraswamy. Kumaraswamy.
Kumaraswamy, they really helped us.
So, I still feel such facilities are required.
See now when I visited some time back,
it was almost in a...nothing is going on there in
that glass building section. Yeah, but people are going to advance.
Since its No no see it was
It was catering to Chemical Engineering,
Yeah. Chemistry and Physics.
So now, I don’t know how people do... Yeah, coming back to your Ph. D. thesis
you have attended the convocation for receiving your degree.
Yeah yeah. You remember the great man who awarded the degree to you?
Tell us a few words about. Yeah yeah yeah, M. Sc., M. Sc. at that time,
who came, yeah great that Raman, Not M. Sc.
C. V. Raman came for my M. Sc. degree M. Sc., C. V. Raman.
I...I actually I finished in '65,
but, the convocation was in '66.
Ok.
So I got my paper, why it happened is, that '65 batch,
they preponed the...their degree.
Ok. I don’t know at the time some war was there no.
Ok yeah, there was a war So they wanted the engineers to come
fast and help the army and all.
So that was the thing.
So, all those who finished in '65,
M. Sc., they were...the degree was available in '66. Awarded in '66
that was a And you are lucky to have Professor...
Dr. Sir C. V. Raman C. V. Raman, C. V. Raman.
And for my M. Sc., M. S. Swaminathan...
and Ph. D., the chief guest was M. S. Swaminathan
Who is the Director...what is that.
Agricultural scientist. Agricultural scientist.
M. S. Swaminathan. He has come.
Later on he became our Chairman, Board of the Governors as well So like that
And, my...our Director was this...what is Sengupto.
Sengupto. So I have seen Sengupto.
Then second was...what is that Ramachandran.
Arcot Ramachandran. Arcot Ramachandran.
He was a great man. So they were there.
So you had excellent time in those days.
Yeah, very good.
So when I got my M. Sc. degree, Professor Sengupto was there,
when I got Ph. D., Pandalai was there.
So, So, we have seen your research career.
Yeah. How about your teaching career.
Teaching, I taught some courses to B. Tech.,
and some to M. Sc.
So...since my voice was low,
they preferred...I preferred to take a M. Sc.
class because the number is less, than I can talk
You are always calm and quiet. Yes yes.
So...so because if I take B. Tech., I have to have
mic and all those things.
But B. Tech. in those days used to be about 300 students.
So that was very big, that...our Physics, what is that...theatre.
Physics Lecture Theatre Theatre! That was too big for me.
Ok. So, so then I preferred to have M. Sc. and M. Tech.,
some students and some Ph. D. course also I took.
At that time we used to have some course for Ph. D. students you know.
Yeah. Just to...like that
and semiconductor part I used to take, Now,
we have seen your teaching career,
now tell us something about your research in guiding Ph. Ds.,
handling projects. Yeah yeah.
So, I guided of course, I didn’t have many students.
My first student who joined, he...what is his name?
C. P. Sridhar you might have seen,
he joined somewhere in
Sridhar is working with IBM for sometime.
Not that Sridhar
This is the senior Sridhar, yeah. Earlier who joined in the...
Senior Sridhar was working for a company who is now distributing
some of the equipments. Equipments.
Semiconductor equipments. I know that. Lasers and all the Yes, yes optical instruments.
So, I was very unfortunate, after two years he got a job.
Then he asked me politely, "Sir, I am
financially little difficult, whether I will go for the job
or I will continue for my Ph. D.?"
I said, "Ph. D. we don’t know when it will end,
So, if you are getting a job with a good salary, go."
But my colleagues, they said, "Don’t leave him, your first student."
I said, "No no, he is requesting,
he he is not...he needs immediately some financial things," I left him.
So right from the beginning you are an excellent teacher and research. So, he...he did only 2 years research.
And so he only took...took some course work and...
but whenever he comes to Chennai, he meets me. Good.
He remembers, "I did a mistake,
I didn’t do my Ph. D."
So, its alright,
but he's financially ok, he, I think in a good post
in the...that was the first student.
Second was our, Krishna Rao.
Krishna Rao who is working as a Lecturer.
By this time he must have been Professor in
somewhere in Andhra Pradesh. Andhra Pradesh.
he also, after Ph. D., he went as post-doctoral to Belgium.
I thought he will do a good job somewhere,
he will settle there, or go to America.
But poor fellow, he was homesick, I think.
He came back to his Andhra,
he joined some college there, and I think he there continued. Once
he came I think Your third student is again Sridhar.
He is another Sridhar, he did on amorphous semiconductor.
It is...it was a new for me also, I had a project
DSD with the another Ramachandran, no...
Ramachandran of CSD, that is...
So we had a project. Yeah.
So. A part of Electrical Engineering.
So, we built some equipment and he did some work in that,
he...he that was the third.
He is presently working in United States, for I think Global Foundries.
Good, good, and here students are well off, I think. Yeah,
after that Because, you also help them.
See something interesting is my students and his students,
it is...we take care of each other.
Whenever he is...out of station, I will take care of...including
that Ph. D. viva, and you took care of I think somebody, my student.
Yes. Maybe Binny or somebody.
It was in 1983, we joined together. So we had a very good...in...
semiconductor...although is a small lab, we had a very good
cooperation with our colleagues, as well as our students.
They were very faithful and doing whatever you say.
Your fourth student is Paul Binny.
Paul Binny yeah. Paul Binny is now with Bangalore,
running his own He also did the silicon, he did the interface,
silicon...silicon dias interface. Yes, he is the man of oxidation,
high pressure oxidation. Oxidation,
we developed that equipment... I know, I remember that.
So that was the...some of the equipment
we used to develop, whatever possible
for example, we wanted to study CV characteristic,
at different frequencies,
I didn’t get a ready-made equipment for that CV meter.
CV meter they will say only 1 frequency or 1 and 10, like that.
Yes. Because, that is used for just testing some capacitor.
But we went into the continuous variation. Yes.
So we have to build our own capacitor...they did it nicely.
It worked, but I don’t know what happened after that, nobody was there.
So, that was the one. Your sixth student is...is Suresh.
Suresh, fifth...fifth.
I did some with...collaboration with Chemistry,
and the material science yeah what is that.
CSD. CSD.
With Dr. Y. R. Dr. Y. R., I did something.
That is another thing, another good friend,
he because, I am...most of my work was electronics nature.
So some of the devices, I made in the CSD.
Dr. Y. R. helped me.
So we had a mutually You also had a good interaction with Professor Raina.
Raina also was there.
And, you also had a good interaction with
Who were the Chairman? Achuthan of Electric.
And Bhat. K. N. Bhat. K. N. Bhat. K. N. Bhat of Electrical.
Yeah, so, it was good to make some simple devices,
in the like...we...they had a clean room and all those things,
we didn’t have.
So maybe you can develop a clean room here,
so that people can do some device work, ok. Yes.
So that was then.
So these five student then some two, three collabrate
with the what is the material science who was incharge earlier? Subba Rao.
Subba Rao was there first.
First? He started collaboration,
he was doing some electrochemical something.
Electrochemical He asked me whether you could help in Physics part of it,
I said, "Ok, I can help."
So they you...students used to come and discuss me and all,
he was doing at that time, high temperature superconductors. High temperature superconductivity.
Then I used to ask him what is the temperature today?
We used to have fun.
So then he left for Karaikudi.
As a Director.
Afterwards, I don’t know what happened to that. Yeah,
he went to Singapore, then he came back,
now he is presently in Chennai in his own house.
Then after that who came, as an in charge?
Any student...who is it still there no.
I forgot...name.
Material Science Centre.
who was in charge? After Subba Rao,
I think it was the Chemistry people who took over.
This name I am not sure. Who is still there now
No, that that. You told me his name.
That is Subramaniam, S. Subramaniam of R. S. I. C.
No, that is different, that is R. S. I. C., your material were,
you were telling one person no,
This is a Ramachandran Rao and... Ramachandran before that Ramachandran Rao?
Before Ramachandran Rao, I don’t remember
because Subba Rao we had a very good interaction,
After that, I don’t know.
No, he...you were a good friend only.
Who? I don’t know.
Recollect, he was now he is shifted to Chemistry.
Varadaraju, Dr. Varadaraju. Varadaraju, he has some students,
Ok. interacted with me,
Dr. Varadaraju ok. Some one or two people,
they used to do by chemical methods. Ok.
I didn’t know any Chemistry
so I have to learn from them, and I only Physics part I helped them.
Yeah. ok, how to take some measurements,
how to study.
At the...around 1999,
preparatory course was introduced in IIT,
or maybe a little before that.
Have you taken any preparatory courses?
Preparatory means. Preparatory means these people will be appearing,
coming from the special category. Oh...this SC ST. SC ST.
I took some...I had tough time actually...
What was your experience in that?
I had a tough time because, we used to take the class
before they joined the Institute.
The actual program starts... And you have to take extra classes,
Yeah extra classes. still they are not able to get good marks,
then we were asked to explain why he is not getting...
why he is not getting pass and all that’s a real...
I don’t know how to solve that problem.
So we can only pity them, but how to give them marks
unless they don’t write.
So that is a problem also, I had a difficult You you you have handled some of the preparatory courses.
Preparatory course and I handled some tutorial classes Ok.
with our...what is that? He was our good teacher.
Tutorials for our colleagues.
V. Ramachandran? V. Ram...no no, Balakrishnan...
he was...I used to attend his class,
he is also very nice teacher wonderful. Wonderful teacher.
And then I used to help only the tutorial class, Ok.
to solve the problems and all.
And, coming to the...this this COSTED,
COSTED used to be their Committee of
Science and Technology in Developing Countries.
It was...the Chairman happened to be our Professor Radhakrishnan.
Radhakrishnan yeah, yeah. They used to organize quite a number of
Yeah, yeah. Yes, yes. conferences,
they used to support for faculty to go for conferences. Yes.
What was your participation in this COSTED you had? I had a good interaction with him,
he used to help me and
he also tried to send me some places, but I didn’t work, ok,
but I helped in some of the short term courses,
he used to conduct some courses. Yeah, he used to conduct a lot of short term courses.
asked me to give some lectures like that, I said ok.
I also arranged some short term course for teachers you know.
Science teachers and Engineering school, college teachers Exactly.
I...two, three courses I did.
FIP they called at that time. FIP.
QIP. Faculty Improvement Program, exactly.
QIP I conducted two, three courses like that,
and the another thing overall thing. Overall, you have spent how many years in the department?
1963, no. No, '67, '67 to
2002. 2002, how much?
35 years. 35 years I was there.
A full term. So I don’t have any grievances,
the another advantage I got is this beautiful campus.
No first let us see,
what is your impressions of your...of your career in the department,
you have spent 35 years? Yeah,
I have no regret although there are some
sometimes you feel little upset.
For example, I stayed the STA for 10 years.
So that...little, I wanted to go to Berhampur University, I also applied.
Then I didn’t go afterwards but,
but then I You became Professor in '95 or '96?
I...professor in '96, '96. Around that time, around that time.
I became Professor.
So because of the delay, I was a little unhappy,
but for my family and for children
since they get very nice atmosphere here for schools and all.
So all my children studied in K. V. IIT.
So coming to the campus life. Campus life
You must have really enjoyed the campus life. I enjoyed the campus.
Tell us something about your No no regret about this.
wonderful time One is...best thing I got is the good education for my children,
and good friends like you and all.
We are the...we are not only colleagues, but we are also family friends so. Yes.
So like that I got Y. S. family, your family, K. V. Reddy.
Yes. They were neighbours,
Yes. a beautiful thing, they were just neighbours.
No, you are nice to all of us,
so therefore we are all...[Indistinct Conversation]
Then they...like that many.
Is there any anecdote?
Any good incident, which you remember both in the department,
as well as in your family life staying in IIT Madras?
Some interesting incidents right? Yeah.
So when I got married you know,
So I married this...7th of December 1970.
You remember it very well. Yeah.
7th December 1970.
So, then I was in Berhampur for some time for marriage event,
I came to...again back to
Chennai. Department, on first of '71.
So, my wife also didn’t know any language in...
and at that time, the allotment of quarters were difficult. Quarters.
So first day we stayed in...I was at that time Assistant Warden.
So I said, "I can...we will adjust in that Assistant Warden room."
Godavari. She...she was a little scared, so many students all were there.
It looks odd, anyway the students were nice also.
Anyway, so we stayed one...one day only.
afterwards I shifted to what is Taramani Guest House. Taramani
Guest House. At that time they used to give
Taramani Guest House for first month, two months like that. Ok
now. So we stayed nearly two months there,
by the time I was looking for the quarters,
so, what happened is, at that time we did...a lot of time used to take
to get a quarter, even a small quarter. Ok.
So, somebody left for Germany,
So, D-type.
So, he is left for 6 months or so,
then we got hold of, our Prasad Rao helped...
told me that they will... T. A. Prasad Rao.
T. A. Prasad Rao, he...I forgot his name
he was a very nice gentleman. T. A. Prasad Rao.
But he joined in...oh he was working at that time
and rejoined the department in 19... yeah. He joined as a what, as a
pool officer or something.
It was after his Ph. D. from IIT Kanpur, he joined as a pool...
as a Research Associate or a pool officer. Yeah yeah.
So at that time, there was a quarter vacant, D-type.
He asked me, "Why don’t you
That’s good. take that things."
So we stayed for a few months there.
and then later I got the allotment.
After very small...that E1 type you know, the smallest.
Yeah smallest single room apartment.
That's not single bedroom single room apartment. Just a kitchen and a
Yeah. hall like...a small hall, and a bedroom like that,
its a single bedroom, yeah. Yes.
Somehow we managed
in that room also there are a lot of guests,
That too come from Berhampur and...
somehow my wife managed, it was a...
So, overall So when we join...came to that...Taramani Guest House,
so I used to come to the department, she was alone in the room.
So I was feeling, "Suppose somebody comes, what will I say?"
She don’t know language...language Yeah, language was a problem.
I told you say (In Tamil) "I don't know Tamil."
What is that called? Tamil...?
(In Tamil) I don't know Tamil.
So you tell that, he will go away.
So like that, we managed.
So some funny incident, then slowly,
but she learnt the language so fast. Fast.
My wife she talks very fluently. I know.
Whereas I have spent so many years,
still I don’t know proper Tamil!
This is one thing I share with you,
I...I...I spent 32 years, I can’t speak Tamil like you,
you and I are just the same. I don’t know how it happens.
It happened because we started speaking in Hindi and English.
yes. In the...in the...in the...in the department.
Yeah. So, that is the. Yes.
So, so. Coming back, what are your hobbies?
Hobby...in the schools I used to play cricket. This is a good question for me,
because I...I never asked you this question.
Yeah, yeah. I never noticed it.
Because, I think, they asked me to write hobby also
I...I felt what I will write?
In schools I used to play cricket Ok.
and then college also I played. Yeah, but in IIT.
No...in Berhampur, in Berhampur. Your hobby is to work...your hobby is to work
I suppose in the laboratory. Yes.
So in Khallikote college, I was in the college team,
we used to go to inter-college tournament like that,
but after I...coming to IIT, I left everything,
only research and teaching that’s all,
so called...ok No but you were instrumental
in making a few people, trained in giving good lectures.
I am one among them. Is it?
Yes. I don’t know.
Because you and Y. R.,
Dr. Y. R. used to ask me to give the lectures almost once a week,
we used to have a good program Yeah.
You were going for tea very
Yeah, tea. I should say I should say, religiously.
Religiously...yeah we, go for...morning. In the morning.
Yeah. Once we used to discuss, we can go...go to tea.
Yeah. Sometimes, I would meet you on the way, you never took tea I think.
I was not taking tea in those days. But we used to force you, "Come!"
Yeah you are forcing me. You discuss on the road, we will discuss something.
Yes, yes. Because we all are the same...semiconductor.
Yes. So we used to have a nice discussion.
So, like that. So, are you still continuing that habit of tea
in the morning, or stopped it?
Nowadays not much, so once in a while I take Not much.
take tea but, only morning I think take some tea. So.
Yeah. Not going out...canteen and all.
What do you want to tell the department
or the institute, about your 35 years of wonderful journey,
both in academics, as well as in your family life, in the campus?
What would you like to give a message to
the people? Message means...its...I think we are lucky to have
such a great Institute
we have social life, academic life both are...
Particularly, for the...our children no, it was a very good
place for their education and,
when my boy, my elder boy was studying,
his higher class. Jayanth Jayanth,
five of his friends got into JEE.
Yeah, Jayanth is one among the And he got a very good rank,
yeah in the top rankers my son got 6...16th rank he got.
Yeah, without any coach.
Without any coach, that is the That is the most important part.
that happened because of the environment in those days. Yeah yeah.
So, I don’t know, that’s good.
And, second boy also got into
Prashanth also got into JEE, Prashanth.
but he got Metallurgy, this fellow got Computer Science.
His rank was very low, he told me in that
don’t expect...like Jayanth.
He used to study so hard and all Jayanth is a real giant
So, he did a good job, and he also doing well in the abroad also Fantastic.
So he is there. So, how often do you visit your children in U. S. and in Europe?.
So, so my daughter is in Europe.
She’s in Europe. So we find convenient to go to Europe,
then America. Yeah hop in Europe and then hop in U. S.
So, sometimes we go to Europe, then stay for two weeks,
then go there, like that we will do, four-five times we have gone like that,
but now we are old no.
No, you are not old. So we find very difficult to
travel, particularly America...that from Dubai to that
place takes 15-16 hours.
Yes. Its really hard for me and
my wife says, "No no I will never go,
let them come, let the children come... Right
and see us," like that.
So that is another thing.
Ok. So you would like to say something more,
you have? Something I
We...did we cover the point?
[Indistinct Dialogue]
Ok, activities after retirement... After retirement, yeah yeah its interesting.
Because this you can always find out what I am doing.
Yeah, 2002 afterwards. After retirement
first, yeah towards the end of my thing no, I retired in 2002
June. When Professor V. R. K. Murthy was the Head of the Department.
I remember. June, so at that time,
I got letter from EGC you know,
To go as a expert committee,
to visit some universities to Ok.
what’s...what are the progress, what they want...know,
what are the drawbacks,
Ok. what are the merits...like that,
we go in a group. I was for the Physics,
there was somebody from Electronics
like that different...Chemistry, like that we visited Allahabad University,
as a team. At that time Professor Murli Manohar Joshi must be there.
2002. Maybe.
Yeah, he is working in the Allahabad University as a Professor in
Nuclear Physics Department. I could see,
interesting to see that Meghnad Saha was there, his equipment.
They were doing...were very excited,
see at that time they used to do lot of work.
Yes. It is a good university, good work is going on.
Allahabad is there top in the list.
Only thing...like any other university,
they also feel that funding is not
good like IITs you know.
So, they don’t...able to do
I mean, some work, the lack of funds. Ok.
So that was an interesting exp...
I mean experience for me to go like this.
2002 onwards. Onwards and
then the UPSC fellow they used to call,
they called several times to set questions for
IAS, IFS and all,
and then sometimes they say...they will send the
paper, that I didn’t like, because
500-600 papers, and they will give it you one week to
finish and give it back.
I said, "I can’t do now, I can set some questions
and come back," like, that.
So we used to go...also a team work.
Ok.
We go there, sit there, finish it in one week,
and come back, like that. Two-three times So, you were active even after that,
very good. I went for some time,
and then this Berhampur University they knew I retired,
they called me to come as a Visiting Professor.
Because, I was there...another thing, when I was here
I went on lien '93 to '95 at Berhampur University.
Yeah, I know that, yes. They started the Electronic Science Department.
They called me.
So, "Whether you can help us."
So I went there, because to go to your native place is interesting thing.
Yes.
You don’t...you don’t bother about the money and all. Nostalgic, ok.
You want to do something for the...your home town. Yes.
That spirit I went, but my wife was not happy,
because she used to be alone, and my...by the time
Jayanth and Prasanth they had already left. Left.
yes. So, she was finding it difficult, but somehow I
forced her, "You manage, I will go,
I will do something and come."
Ok. So that was an interesting period for me,
because you know the atmosphere, IIT and University
how much different it is. Yeah.
That too Berhampur University.
First thing I wanted to change the timing.
See they used to go at 11 o’ clock,
and come back at 3 o’ clock.
I said, "This kind of thing you cannot teach,
you cannot to improve your..."
I said, "You have to start like IIT 8 o’ clock,
and stay up to 4 o’ clock
at least," but they didn’t agree.
Why? Because most of the teachers
and student they used to stay in town. Ok.
They used to go to the camp...university campus. Yeah.
And, that is...buses are arranged.
That timing is fixed, nobody can change that driver,
that fellow will come like a maharaja, I will say.
"I will take come only 11 o’ clock and take
and bring you 3 o’ clock," like that. Its ok.
that was the constant...
I had to fight with the Vice Chancellor,
say if you want to study Electronics,
you should have a more timing and all.
Finally he agreed with lot of hesitation.
But some of the colleagues they didn’t like
because they have to come early now.
They were all staying in Berhampur.
So they said, "We we arranged a special bus for that."
The bus will go at 7 o’ clock...
So you tried to change the Berhampur University system. Change the...
system, but only that department,
I can’t do this whole...little bit I do,
then I changed the syllabus also.
I saw the old syllabus...that old
triode valve, all those things were there.
Now... I said "You change...
you change this."
So they cooperated all the colleagues, they came
and we changed all the subjects. Good.
So that was one good thing, I was happy
and, but some equipment like high vacuum unit, like that.
To do some work, experimental work you say.
And some instruments. Good.
Basic instruments in the limited facility,
that was one contribution.
Similarly, when I went to NIST the Engineering College,
still they are calling me,
I went as a Emeritus Person because after Berhampur University,
Berhampur University gave me as the Waiting
Professor, because that age limit is there.
Yes. Once you cross 70, you are not eligible.
Yeah, it is very difficult to get.
I said ok, I will stop now.
Then these people caught me, this NIST
National Institute of Science and Technology,
this is a Engineering College is a good Engineering College in Berhampur.
In Berhampur. Berhampur.
Being a private college, they can...they can ask you It is a private college.
Ok. And the Director was from USA.
So he has trained that, he knows the culture, how to deal
Ok ok. with the students and all.
He was very liberal.
So, he used to give freedom to students, as well as staff. Ok.
You do whatever useful for the students.
So that way I found...I gave some lectures,
but I said, "I can’t prepare at this age,
and give lecture, I can do as a consultant." So to lab...
some of the research lab we want to...because now,
even MHRD, are insisting that even in Engineering Colleges,
you have to develop some research also.
Yeah, it is mandate...its a mandate. Not only teaching and all.
If you want to get some funding a lot. Yes.
So they asked me "Whether you can help us?"
I said, "I whatever I know I can do." Fantastic.
Buy this thing...high vacuum we need,
buy one good furnace,
I took from here on...I took your help
everybody, where its available. Yes.
yes. And the furnace some readymade...not that
finding and all, we got a good furnace,
with a digital control and all.
Which can go up to 1400...
So right now you are still working with NIST? You don’t need...
They call me sometimes. Oh yeah.
Because that also is limited,
see the Emeritus Professor, you get only up to three years or something. Yes.
Two years, so they extend another year. Yes.
After that over, "I said ok goodbye,
whenever you need some help I will come." Great.
So still they are calling sometimes, when they have some
difficulty, or to...when I go there...go to my native place,
I’ll just visit them,
they ask some, "Give a seminar or something, I do like..."
So, finding a peaceful life in Pallikaranai in your own home?
Yeah, its ok.
And. That...luckily that’s called IIT colony.
IIT colony. So still some retired people are there.
So I don’t...I feel comfortable. Very nice.
Because our street, all the three Majhis are there.
Yeah yeah, there are three Majhis.
One Majhi is Electrical Electrical
Another Majhi is Mathematics You please catch hold of other Mahji, P. C. Majhee
who was a...first student of B. Tech.
He joined '59, ok.
So he will tell you the story how they...they...they were
they were staying Saidapet it...they used to come Yeah, yeah.
That I don’t know how it was.
Marvellous. But when I joined everything was ok,
BSB was there, department was full fledged.
So it was good.
So, I think I covered most of the things Yeah, I think we covered most of the things and
we should say thank... and then
other things of course, these things...I...what is that
I did some work for the...what is that
Pensioner’s Association, the Treasurer like that, Yeah.
is the different thing.
So you keep yourself active.
So sometimes they ask me to help...and ok.
So that’s all I think
and then another thing is...some social life was there,
we used to...mostly...students,
when I joined, very few students were there,
we used to have some picnic like that
because a beautiful campus.
Near that Durga temple you know,
Yeah. we used to cook, and the families they will come, get together,
they will cook and eat and go like that,
it was an another interesting thing.
So, at that time, students were also faithful. Yeah,
Very nice Majhi,
thank you very much for your time. Thank you very much, for your patience.
Yeah, thank you very much. Ok.
And also I thank the...your Heritage
for giving me this opportunity to talk to them, ok.
- Contribute
to the Centre -
Monetary
Support - Digital
Material
Prof. B. V. A. Rao in Conversation With Prof. Narayanan
Professor Rao, I am very happy to be here today,
interviewing you for the Heritage Centre of IIT Madras.
Actually, you were the first person I think I met
when I joined IIT Madras officially,
when I reported for duty in the Machine Dynamics Lab on
6th January 1975. So, its really doubly pleased
that after so long I am again meeting you in the IIT campus.
And can you just tell I mean before joining IIT Madras,
where did you have your education, then what were you doing?
So, can you please tell me something about it?
Thank you Professor Narayanan.
I am happy that I am meeting one of my old colleagues,
so who knew me also so well and also whatever I have done
he can also vouch for it.
So, that's a great advantage.
So, I am so lucky to have a partner like that
like Professor Narayanan, so who was so helpful
and so guiding on many other issues
and I think the the Machine Dynamics Laboratory
has made a big name
and people like that who are all involved.
Before this- it all started,
actually the first batch of in 1958,
the first batch of the IIT Bombay started.
And when they were interviewing it in Bombay
I had just then completed my masters
at Indian Institute of Science in Internal Combustion Engines
and I was taking a training,
I was a trainee in the Kirloskar Oil Engines, Pune.
So, I have attended that interview.
The interview went very well with lot of Russian professors but
and finally, they said you do not have
teaching, actual teaching experience.
Then, then a month later I was- Director called me,
he was actually planning also Director called me
he said no no, you are not selected for that lecturer,
but we are now sending about 7-8 people to Germany
and under the some scheme for which IIT Bombay has been given.
So, if you are interested you would you like to go?
And you are selected because
you do not have to attend any interview,
we will make all arrangements.
So, it was all so exciting.
And then I went to Germany to Dresden for my PhD.
And all that there was only a class that
I should work for some years
at least minimum of some 3-4 years after coming back.
I returned in 1961, and then started working,
but I wasn't too happy there because the,
so they did not recognize any of my talent,
many of my specializations which I took.
I was tried to ask to teach something else etcetera
like thermodynamics and other things which not my areas.
Then, at the time there was a conference
on Applied Mechanics, Stated? Applied Mechanics at Bombay,
when Professor Kurt- Professor Haug,
Kurt Haug from here who was teaching,
he was a German expert
from that first one of the first German expert to come here.
So, he came here to attend that program,
and then he was very much excited
that somebody is speaking German language
[inaudible] and he himself was not so conversant with an English.
His English was always people were making fun.
But then he was excited why didn't you come
you know you are a German man and a German
research student and then you come away there.
And I am going to I am going to advertise also you see.
See how things are there you know.
He advertised soon, within partite
I saw the advertisement coming
for an Assistant Professor and I was a Lecturer.
I applied, but when I came to the interview whom do I see,
giants, giants in the field like Satish Dhawan,
an expert and such people were there.
Then I thought I may not be even get an entry
and finally, Lakshmanaswami Mudaliar,
AR's father and he was the Chairman at that time,
they were all, it's all very serious.
They were very serious in selecting people in those days
and then I was selected.
So, and then, but there they did not allow me to
immediately leave, at 6 months till their notice
I came and joined.
So, I was one of the earliest.
He was teaching vibrations
and the the students were in the final year, fifth year.
Already one to, first batch was to go out in 1963, 1959 to 63.
So, there was first batch was to go out
and then at at that time I was asked
to teach some Machine Tool Dynamics.
It was surprising 150 hours of Vibrations were taught
Mr. Narayanan at that time
and second year Vibration, third year Vibrations,
fourth because I was the only man
he was fully teaching High Vibrations
and I was so excited
that my area of specialization is bring you so much importance.
So, on that one had happened.
But none of the laboratories were coming up
because he had not even planned a building for that.
Professor Rao. Yeah.
Can you say a little more about the selection procedure?
You said Professor Satish Dhawan, Professor Laxmiswamy Mudaliar,
they were all stalwarts who were there
in the Selection Committee,
maybe something would have happened so,
you know we have been in the
interviews of other faculty members and so on,
in those days how did it go and so on.
Briefly you can touch upon that, it will be interesting.
No, they actually, Dhawan say
I also met him also much later
when I went for a CS, this CMERI directorship in Delhi.
He was the Chairperson again at that time,
that time also, I met him.
I was not selected at that time.
They were looking at something you know, spark
the people and that type of questions. Very basic questions.
And you know many of us you know we don't concentrate.
Thus that was the time you know because
one or two fundamental things which I could not answer.
The same experience I had in my PhD thesis,
Dr. Rao makes a finds out a new type of vibration
and claims that he is an expert,
but he does not know this fundamental thing you know,
the professor showed. I think, I think that is how
I need to change my views.
I think there is something wrong
with our system of education here,
mostly exam oriented people
who were all trained etcetera and other things
and I think the people
were all really looking for some spark in them that is how.
So, that is how I was concentrating mostly on
basic principles in all my course.
There was a nice saying by many stewards,
doctors were Dr. Rao's first 5-6 lectures are wonderful
afterwards only problematic because you know
lot of mathematics would come etcetera like.
But you know, so that is how
even today I had lot of people you know,
I got lot of good I mean what is it compliments
from people who have attained very high position
even in this country that my.
Were, were you informed immediately after the interview
that you have been selected or you were- Immediately, immediately.
Immediately, yeah, oh good. With a within of fortnight I got it.
Oh, ok. In October itself I got it,
but till till end of April I could not.
I joined here on 5th of May.
So, 5th of May. 93. Yeah.
19. 1963.
Yeah. And I taught the first batch
of a Mechanical in Machine Tool Dynamics [laughs] yeah.
And so, my my background was
I had a very interesting things earlier
when I did a project work in instead of Science,
on something like Induction of Alcohol to the Petrol and Diesel Engines
to see whether they will give more power.
They gave more power, but what happened was
the stresses were so high, they were failing at early.
So, many of the type of things you know
even there also research at Institute of Science
people didn't know what research was in those days.
When I joined here with the first
first only one PhD in Mechanical Engineering,
most of the senior people who were had
registered for PhD in Mechanical Department,
I was the the Doctoral Committee, so I fortunate.
So, that was the type of thing.
Even in IIT Bombay when I joined as a faculty, I was the first one
in Mechanical Engineering with a PhD from outside.
So, this was the stage,
I had a good chance to build a good team
and that's what happened here at IIT.
I said I should- No, one more thing.
So, this is Applied Mechanics Department
is not there in many institutes,
it is sort of unique maybe in-
Professors got backup. There is, yeah. It was there in IIT Delhi
which came after IIT Madras.
Of course, it was there in
Allahabad that Regional Engineering College.
So, there only very few institutes
had Applied Mechanics Department.
So, you can tell some of your experience
joining the Applied Mechanics Department and-
Yeah, first first I was actually I was when I was selected
I was not so clear at that time.
It's a departments and all these things.
I don't know when I was I was my Vibrations
you know the plan I said Vibrations,
but you know it was to be taught from the Applied Mechanics,
I am a Mechanical Engineer
I may go something like Mathematics Department
or something like Applied; people always used to
make fun of Applied Mechanics, Applied Mathematics.
And that was true also
because all of the most of the subjects were mathematical nature
which it is in elasticity. And jocularly, they used to call it as
Supplied Mechanics Department also. Supplied, yeah, yeah, yeah.
In the sense that because we were sort of. Reddy.
Supporting the other departments, yeah.
This fellow writes to be as Department of Supplied Mechanics.
So, like that. So, question is,
but I still then I said decided
I created that Machine Dynamics Laboratory.
I was the man who created the Machine Dynamics Laboratory.
I told Sengupto, Professor I am a Mechanical Engineer,
you are a Mechanical Engineer,
if I said only I am doing like this my career will be ruined there.
So, they will not, there are no mechanical fellow will teach me.
So, machine dynamics which involved many facets this one,
which I saw to it those areas did not
come up with the regular Mechanical Department.
So, it became a part of this one.
A. Ramachandran helped me because
he said you give the, you conduct your course,
but give the degree in Mechanical Engineering.
The degree was given from Mechanical Engineering,
but the course was conducted by us in Machine Dynamics.
So, that Mechanical Machine Dynamics Laboratory
as you are aware, so was one of the things
you you should show the photograph of that.
That is the one you know which I I will show you here,
the very first picture as a developer you can have a look.
Professor Haug also, he was instrumental in introducing
lot of Vibration courses at start,
the laboratories did not come up
and in that process he had to get back.
So. No. See we had the Vibrations Lab it was called.
Vibration lab. And then you said that.
It was in the first floor instead of- Yeah, you you made it, yeah.
So, the Sengupto, Professor Sengupto, the first Director realized
I said look here there is one West German doctorate,
another is the East German. I was from East German doctorate.
And I was also equally coming up with ideas
in those field because that is a field in which I worked in Germany.
You were referring to Professor Wagner, is it not? No, not Wagner.
Oh, oh, yeah, right, ok, right.
Yeah, ok. Then, I said, then you know Professor Haug,
he was not working towards much on this laboratory.
So, then he was sent.
Then, they wrote to Wagner. Wagner showed interest to come,
then he Professor Sengupto wrote very clearly
that there is already one German doctorate here,
Indian who has come from East German this thing,
but you may have some differences here etcetera
and other thing you know the political situation.
But he has lot of ideas.
So, if you are able to work with him together you are welcome.
He said I will have no problem
and he was a wonderful man professor Wagner and you know-
So, say when we the vibration because
vibration is the German
Indo-German the GTZ with IIT Madras was
no classified area should be taken.
Like for example, Aeronautics was not supported.
For example, why; say for example,
here we Applied Mechanics and Aeronautics
was combined for some time,
but immediately it had been withdrawn like that.
So, you could see the Vibrations Lab when when I
expanded by the activities not only vibrations, tribology,
we should maintain many other areas, acoustics, etcetera
you can see the number of team that joined here.
Mr. Velusamy is here, Mr., Mr. C. R. Subramaniam,
all of them were retired in a very-
We have do not have two or three people there,
Ramamurthi, Ganesh were all my students.
Ganeshan was my student,
then Prabhu was my first PhD student.
Then, then C. R. Subramaniam was, ?was working with me.
And all my colleagues here many of these people
who stood solidly behind me in building up just lab.
Today, I am very proud of that lab because
when I see the ultimately at the at the end of my retirement at 63,
that lab had produced large number of PhDs
which no other laboratory had made.
The number of publications was so high
and the number of academy of engineering,
there were 5 people with Ramesh etcetera,
6 people from the same laboratory was done actually.
That is a great credit to the IIT Madras
and particularly this laboratory.
And this is the laboratory, what was I was initial stages
to and I was happy to involve.
The first to chop you know ISRO,
Abdul Kalam used to come and sit and discuss with us
like this, what he wants.
He wanted a Hydraulic Vibration Machine
to consolidate the solid propellants in rockets.
At that time all the indigenous this thing.
So, we I developed a Hydraulic Vibration Machine.
It came also next picture, next picture you can see that.
See here, we got a NRDC Award,
Imports Substitution Award for this.
It has a one tonne shaker with this one,
we did it also for several other people.
And even for tractor seats etcetera
that was one of the first experimental projects that we developed here.
So, when they wanted see,
we wanted to simulate satellites
actually on a platform here,
we developed a 10 inch stainless stainless steel ball with pure air jets
with a platform on which the satellites are mounted
and they could give get 6 degrees of freedom.
And then, they they are deputed two with people
to IIT, ISRO people
for 2 for 2 years to develop that whole city.
The third one was they wanted to expose
later on I will show see, these all the
people you know we we developed for the industry.
We this laboratory particularly
worked very closely with the industry
and we had lot of major projects
which got us good laurels like Import Substitution,
Invention Awards etcetera, many other things etcetera.
See, see this is the one which we developed
and which came in newspapers and all that.
You can see that.
And first we used hydraulic,
we also used the pneumatic shakers.
These are all very; see you can see that IIT team develops
Vibrator Dr. B. V. A. Rao etcetera
names are there in the Hydraulic Vibration Machine.
I think this is something really heritage to see that you know
how how this institute.
I think Professor Wagner is also very good at
solving some of the industrial problems and so on.
He was. And later on he became
the founder of the Industrial Consultancy and
Sponsored Research Centre. Wagner see, Wagner you know what happened was
1968 he joined and immediately I went as the home board,
I was the first Home Board Fellow to be selected by from IIT Bombay.
So, I went to Kalsubai at that during that period. IIT Pune or IIT Madras.
IIT Madras, yeah. Yeah, right.
During that period he was managing.
The moment you know 69 I retired,
he left and handed over the charge to me
in the Machine Dynamics Laboratory.
And that's how we continued for example, RVR Sastri,
now who joined later Bharat Dynamics Limited,
this is the where Ramamurthi's project for the KCP.
We know the drums and trammels etcetera
which makes lot of noise and vibrations you know
when they mix up etcetera
and they are messing the stresses.
This is our bed this is what I feel today,
you have dumped all sorts of things on that,
it is a we we took an enormous efforts
to put up that beautiful isolation bed,
unique isolation bed in perhaps in the whole country
where we can test
but But sir, still it is there and it is being used.
I do not know, yes.
You can see the how they how they whole laboratory.
The shock testing machine was developed by me
for shocks, how this is, because
we helped also IGCR in the shock phenomena and other thing
because they wanted to see
when they are blasting the jetty
whether the reactors etcetera will go into?
So, we were concentrating essentially
on lot of industrial projects of high magnitude
and high need to the country etcetera
with like ISRO, DRDO, BARC,
I mean all of us you should know the exception
without all that help I mean I could not have done it.
Such a team cooperation was there from all the colleagues.
Although some people did not see eye to eye with me,
but still we worked together.
No, no you can tell something about your colleagues
in the Machine Dynamics Lab Exactly.
as well as the other section no, Applied Mechanics Department,
we had the Fluid Mechanics Lab,
the Solid Mechanics Section and so on,
and later on the Biomechanics
and the Biomedical Engineering section also joined.
You see. So, perhaps.
Brief report which I wrote
see the Applied Mechanics went through a hard times at that time
because there was no permanent head of the department.
D. V. Reddy was there, he was always one
one leg here, one he was and finally, board out there.
Then, they combined Aeronautics and Applied Mechanisms
that did not work out, according to Germans that was removed.
And what one time both we were three laboratories there,
Vibrations Laboratory, then Elasticity Laboratory,
and also the Fluid Mechanics Laboratory,
all 3 of us from Bangalore, Indian Institute of Science.
Each of us had, but we are all assistant professors only, all 3.
So, they used to call trimurtis in those days
because of we we occupied 3 different positions.
At one time when we were all 3 of us went to Germany
nobody was here and you know the department suffered a lot.
So, you can see the our industrial consultations
and we had we had very good I don't know
at that time I I I spent about 3-4 years in Germany
for before that, I could see how hard it is that,
but we had equally capable people amongst us,
like R. V. R Sastri, Swarnamani.
In Electronics in those days, they were all coming up,
there was, they could develop a good sensors.
And you, I also put up here many of the things
we had developed indigenously, indigenously,
because indigenization was very much encouraged,
with those you can see are all we are testing with the bus duct.
All all the things nuclear plants, everything was tested etcetera.
You can see even; how to put up good foundations
for vibration free foundations etcetera
which we are all doing it here, this itself is done.
What was happened was in the HSB building, next building
the vibrations were affecting the semiconductor laboratory in the top floor.
Correct. We saw the blow, this one come this one come in
air conditioner blower's compressors that were used,
so they were creating that problem through.
So, those things were
we put up separate special beds etcetera to see that thing.
That means, we developed a capacity to
organize ourselves because that's how the industry people
were very much this one.
Ultimately, when we produced large number of PhDs in vibration area.
Acoustics area I was tying,
because see Acoustics I did not have much
because that is the one area I picked up much later after coming,
but no the acoustics particularly with Dr. Narayan's entry,
this one we worked very close this one
along with Civil Engineering people and all that
and so acoustics also become a very important thing.
We used to teach shipal ship vibrations,
ship ship acoustics, and such areas also
interacting with other department.
We always thought you know the Applied Mechanics as a Supplied Mechanics.
We should supply we should we should feedback
good areas from this.
All mathematical mathematical to the other department,
so that we do it.
But still we are although we are mathematical,
we were doing hard hard hard-
You know you can also talk about the new programmes
which were started on Industrial Tribology,
M.Tech in Machine Dynamics,
M.Tech in Industrial Tribology
because 19 after 1993 I left.
The the Machine Dynamics Laboratory published a brochure,
giving all the publications and activities and everything,
they have, there they have acknowledged me.
The courses the postgraduate programme
started in Machine Dynamics majoring in vibration and sound,
the tribology majoring in lubrication, friction and wear,
and the maintenance engineering and management in reverse
are all essentially due to Dr. Rao.
You know they are unique programmes, I mean the
the maintenance in management
it was in that those days it was not even countries you know. And not the.
Types. Yeah.
Because these were coming in newspapers,
yes world is facing these problems oil crisis,
oil will lot of failures due to vibration dynamic effects.
So, we immediately transferred here
because you know what happens I will tell ultimately,
anything is done we realize it much later,
maybe even after the person is not there,
you know that that is our nature.
But how we were doing at that time,
but nobody nobody talked about it,
we thought it is all just normal things we were doing,
but actually what we were doing was
what if the country reads and we were at the right.
If that type of policy had followed
of the Nehru's policy at that time
I don't think this globalization would have come
and we had to depend on outside people etcetera
for so many things etcetera and other things.
So, we had the capability.
For example, the missile testing, when they were firing the missiles,
four and half kilometres they were wasting one missile casting the enormous.
So, we developed a ray keeping the missile and pulling the wires
with the same acceleration characteristic for testing,
qualification testing and that got an Invention Award for us.
Yeah, no the the acoustic testing facility for high
High Intensity noise levels.
Of some of these spacecraft structures.
So, you see how They are also unique.
See my people, Rao's people will see the
number of people I would take, not one.
That was my thing.
I wanted to knowledge to assimilate to many people,
not one, not live with me alone,
that was my trump at that day.
See, the number of people got involved
from Civil Engineering, Mechanical Engineering, Electronics,
everybody and other thing,
I was we are doing at the Ennore
because loose soil whether we need piles and other things
strong foundation or not
we were helping them those people here.
If we just quickly go through it,
it shows a lot of very interesting things in this big picture
you can see how how we how to how to find out these things.
All these are some of our criteria,
but see the number of colleagues.
This is a damper, this is how or one Dr. Wagner was was,
I thought you know he would also be like the earlier professor,
he may not put any of these things,
but he was wonderful
this he was the man to first to introduce
how to test the dampers and analyse.
And one of my PhD student
worked on the transmission line, same thing too.
See, every project we did.
You know these Stockbridge dampers were used. 2 or 3 2 or 3
project from PhDs we produced on that
that is the credit; that means, it was not only an industrial work,
but also project project work for PhDs.
So, that is how the
the systems were totally different there at that time.
Can see the, these are all the things indigenously developed,
test etcetera. We had a lot of good things.
You can see the bus rides very very areas.
So, some of the things you know
we have ourself developed in the laboratories
like sensors, vibrators and other things
are also shown in this photographs.
I don't know if you are able to make what is,
what saying what is Machine Dynamics Laboratory.
So, if you can able to put it.
I it will be a good thing for future people to see that.
Do you have that acoustic transversibility?
Yeah. Tested that for; that photograph also.
Go to go to the almost to end sir, I will show you
just by go for. You see these are all industrial,
these are the things we developed.
We could have continued with that work type of work,
but indigenous development. Next, last one you go sir.
This is for the tire stress analysis. Yeah, yeah.
Bagomatic press. this over in this,
it may be in the other one. The the next one that I put it I think.
Yeah, here little lower.
You will go there. Yeah, you go there. Yeah, I could see.
These are all PhD works.
See, even Germans gave me an equipment here.
So, I invited the director
and also the German consulate for people and you know.
See, this is the one, the SLV-3, first rocket Abdul Kalam shared.
We created a facility outside 180 dB,
inside it should be 80 dB;
that means, 180 dB means if you are get explore out
for a minute because you cannot even go about more than 120, 130.
But such risk we took in developing, we created horns,
all all they here you know the the there the
Thermodynamics Laboratory we created all these facilities and did it.
So, we interacted with many other departments and their facility.
So, can I say something in the?
See, we we were the first to have this type of acoustic high intensity,
Oh, yeah. acoustic test facility in our lab.
This was one of Professor Rao's PhD student Professor Ram Bhatt
he developed it, but later on the ISRO people
they found a use for this testing
to qualify some of the payloads
which have been sent to sent by rockets and so on,
but now in ISRO in Bangalore they have.
students developed that. So, they have a big testing facility
Yes and also in n-test in Imarat that is DRDO lab,
they they have a big reverberation test facility and
they we have all been design review team
we were reviewers and so on.
But I want to say that this was the first facility
which was created in the country for this acoustic tensibility. we should not like too much.
In the Kaveri engine you must have heard of the GTRE was going on
lot of problems. You know finally,
I have got still that letter Abdul Kalam wrote
please consult Dr. Rao, is that letter is there.
So, they consulted me
and I gave solution within within 2 months.
Now, how why that noise where that noise is coming from,
and what could be that is
because it was a non-linear vibration
which they are not not even perceived etcetera.
Anyhow, so this glory somehow
why I am trying to tell is this somehow
we could have glorified in those it, so much, but we did not do it.
We did not do it.
But you know we were in the right direction
how these things could come.
I think the Heritage Centre should take some steps
to see that see the the
how the future generation people should pick up.
Perhaps you can say something about that
noise test which we carried out in the airport you know
for if you remember something on that yes, right. See
I have put up here.
This is not only my credit here,
this old projects, all are major projects.
Yeah that we can- All are major projects.
Year wise I have put it here.
See, when Pondicherry Airport,
Pondicherry when Pondicherry they wanted to put a airport
there was objection from- Saleem Ali.
Saleem Ali for this you know for for long we affected
and also the the hospital people
the Pondicherry Hospital people.
And the other Saleem Ali and this one there was objection.
Then the ministry people wrote to me,
wrote to us somehow recommended go to our laboratory.
So, we along with Narayanan and couple of people
2 or 3, Ramachandran and others. Professor Subramanian and Ramchandran.
24 hours we stood on the Meenambakkam Airport
in the high grass where that come you know
where the 7 4 7s would just land on our head
taking a great risk you know in those days,
measured the noise level for the all the higher
level aircrafts, 24 hours.
2 days we did it.
It was a great risk we took.
From that we plotted what is called
noise exposure forecast contours, NEF contours.
These contours show that
within that contour no building should come safe
because they will be subjected to aircraft noise
which can cause lot of serious problems.
And so, none of these people who are complaining
did not come within that range
that was our, but still the Pondicherry airport was cleared,
they completed the whole what is that that runway.
Again, there was a problem
and myself, Narayanan and myself went
we went to the hospital people who complained
with the green dress we are all put on because
we are also because during an operation they wanted to show that.
And we showed that the noise made by their that generators
was much more than the single aircraft
that would fly on this thing.
You know we had a wonderful.
We we also met you remember that Trissur.
Yeah. Trissur, the whole area they were complaining of
textile mill which was coming out the the sleepless nights
and the children got lot of effects etcetera.
And we used to this the magistrate of dispute
give that gave that project to us
and we tried to sort out that problem.
I mean I can go on large number of projects which were done.
Luckily I had a good camera in those days
none of these people were using any camera
that is how I was able to keep so many of these photographs
and I would be very happy to see that these these things
are all given back to you to the Heritage Centre
and you know that each each will speak
a story by itself and each.
So, what I want to do is I know that is a limited. No, can you
just list some of the major projects which are been- Yeah, yeah it is written already.
You can just read or. No I I read
I will make this whole report. I have to correct my English here
because it was written in ? and I will. No problem.
major projects I will give brief account its already written.
I will put everything together.
It can be kept in one of the things
for people who want to really see what Machine Dynamic is.
Somehow you know for example, today tomorrow today
Machine Dynamics Laboratory does not exist.
Now, that's why I am trying to talk little more emphatically
because if it was continuing it is a different story,
in that manner it is not, in that manner it is not there.
And you know that after the computers and other things
today's way of looking at its a totally different issue, ok.
And but question is at those days it was experimentation
which working with hands
and you know these are the type of things you know
which were very much needed.
Professor Rao, you you have
joined the IIT Madras at a very early date
when the institute has just started.
So, you must have had other experience apart from
academics, teaching, and so on,
you would have been involved in some
as a warden or sports can you say highlight.
Oh. Some of those activities, some anecdotes and.
That is a big story.
Yeah. When I joined in 63, hardly it,
see all the all the laboratories were managed by the Germans.
They were there, but many German laboratories
were still to be equipped,
not many of them had come,
and and least with applied mechanics, ok.
So, by many of us we were available for other works
like Alumni Association, then the Gymkhana,
hostels, Staff Club, Faculty Club like that.
So, we were all utilized very nicely.
I also bought out this very nicely this
when we got another, when D. V. Reddy left,
we got a professor from Caltech
one S. R. Valluri, the later who became the Director of the NAL.
And he found aghast what is these people doing,
Assistant Professors and other things,
they are doing hostel work and this work,
they are not doing any research work, you know
that is how he tried to look at the things etcetera.
And then when A. Ramchandran took over,
he also found lot of young people
instead of spending their time on research in laboratories
they were all wasting their Faculty Clubs, Gymkhanas
and other types of things you know because this is not the way.
I was the warden of hostel and also a Chairman Council of Wardens.
So, immediately said get out then.
So, within the within that 3 months,
I got the Humboldt Fellowship really would be
that is how it happened.
So, that was all a history.
But you know if you see the the team work,
if you feel the Machine Dynamics Laboratory.
And then the the type of experiments
we built up you can see that even.
So, we had a lot of teams as you can see here.
Me, I am also there in the.
This is which team it is?
Sir, may be. Professor Sengupto, yourself there.
No, this is it is Sastri, this is alumni
I was, I was. Yeah.
Yeah, this photo I do not have,
this photo I don't have at all.
See, this is very nice. So, alumni.
So, particularly you know they were all,
see you are you see you are a Institute of Science Professor,
I mean studied etcetera you are doing
all sorts of nonsense work, now that is how it happened.
So, like that. It was very interesting
and to see that many of these things.
That's why I have I have particularly mentioned in this one.
But one thing about the team between these three sections
we had, and then I was also instrumental
in starting the Biotech, Bio Biomedical Engineering.
There was a lot number of times it came to the Senate,
somehow it was dropped because there won't be the
job opportunities etcetera. But when I became
Head of the Department, I bought the Biomedical Engineering
the first student of Biomedical Engineering
one Mr. Thirumalai you know that even today
he sends me the car to whether airport or station to pick me up
and his car only going around for me.
I mean that is about Biomedical Engineering was
established only by me in that one.
So, that, so we had 4 sections
Elasticity Group, Fluid Mechanics, Machine Dynamics Group,
and this one that was the very homogenous team
and you know in which.
No, initially I think it was called Bio-Mechanics
there was a Professor Ghista.
Professor Patil. nothing happened, but he tried his best,
but it could not go through.
No, later on it became Biomedical Engineering. Biomedical Engineering, Biomedical Engineering.
So, I finally, wanted to say.
No, your experiences in the campus?
Experience with? In the campus.
Ok. Campus Maybe your social life in the campus.
I think you had a good garden, your wife was involved in Oh.
Ladies Club and so on.
Those things also. Yeah. She was very active she was.
My wife was very active.
She was a dancer herself in those days, earlier days.
And so she used to give also performances
here in the early days and you believe or not she,
myself and my wife used to go even in the double ride in the cycles.
Ok. In in the old times.
And she was she even today loves gardens and this one flowers.
So, she got for 7 successive years the best garden prize.
So, at at the hostel and whenever we had
put up etcetera and another thing.
And she was she also became the president of the Ladies Club
and she was quite active in those things
and that is how I have been active.
So, for her only this school was started in Bangalore
in 1942, I am say 75 year old institution.
I am just running as a president.
I am also that was the pre-school
which was started in Montessori System.
I am also the President of the Indian Montessori Centre.
Just I retired from Vietnam,
the first batch of your Montessorians were trained there
and all that. So, all these things I lastly you know.
No, you have mentioned about you know your tennis
activities, club activities and so on and-
Yes, because you know everything you are asking,
that's very nice of you, good No, no
Question is because even there,
even although I did not do anything in the laboratories
and research area at that time
whatever I did with perfection.
I was the first Secretary for the tennis court also, tennis court.
And so, when I retired
I instituted a rolling trophy- B.V.A. Rao Single's Trophy
in in tennis that continue and
E. G. Ramachandran's Double Trophy were for.
It continued for some years
and I do not know what happened to that etcetera thing.
So, whatever I did even there I was
when I was a all of them were professors,
but I was only the Assistant Professor who became
the Chairman Council of Wardens those days 1968
in charge of the Taramani house also and all that.
So, I did a lot of,
my my time was very glorious time for me,
it gave me a lot of opportunities to learn
and interact with people
and I always took a lot of interest in
not only in these things also,
but in sports and social activities and other things.
That's why although I retired in June 93,
I always kept contact with this lab especially with
close friends and colleagues like Narayanan
who is who interviewed me today.
And I considered this day as my greatest memorable day
for providing me an opportunity
to recollect what all I contributed
to the growth of this lab and the department I belong.
Maybe perhaps the way in which I have talked
may not be in order that's why I put it in writing
you can see that in each area,
so what has been contributed is also been explained.
And I want to know since it has come out in this shape,
I want to add little more etcetera and things
make with with photographs I put it
and sent it to you as a monograph
which can be put up here.
The uniqueness and greatness of this laboratory
can be gauged by the number of fellows
of the Indian National Academy of Engineering,
we were 6 of us. I was the first one to get.
And so, we were 6 of us,
and unfortunately 2 are no more,
both of them were voracious PhD producers of this laboratory
and who had largest number of publications in international journals.
As human beings we have our own shortcomings,
but when work come here,
we all worked as a team to uphold the name of this lab
in the highest pedestal
that such a lab is no longer there today
makes all the old timers
who contributed to its growth and fame, feel very sad.
My humble request that it deserves to be kept
as a museum for generations to remember
at this place that there was a lab like this.
Professor Rao. Like we tell.
Ok. That all people will wonder
a man like this walked down this earth for Gandhiji.
Professor Rao, can you remember something about
these these look like some shock.
Kelvin, yeah. Yeah, right.
So, it has been some negatives you have been taken by Dr. Gauri.
Klein. It will be Klein, yeah.
See, I know it. right.
There is no v.
Dr. Klein, we got a Klein,
Dr. Klein came here for a Fluid Mechanics.
And so, he was he,
in fact, he has given me a very good certificate also,
I took it took it for some time you know
he was because Germans are very practical people.
If you go to a German labs
they don't work on some small gadgets etcetera
they will work with one to one.
Regular machines and that itself they will work do research.
So, that is the type.
And they are all used to that type of research
that's why it would take long time
7 to 8 years for their PhD.
So, these are the shock tubes.
And they were also doing for the buses
the whether the flow.
Separation. Flow separations etcetera.
Yeah. Fluid mechanics was doing it.
Elasticity also was very well
led by you know he died long ago,
but you know he was a wonderful man.
There are lot of work was done on
photo elasticity and other things including Jay Ramachandran
who contributed also to the. No, no even now
I think Professor Ramesh is continuing. Ramesh
On Digital Photo Elasticity. rather a wonderful digital photography.
So, we had an excellent group
and that tradition is also still continuing here.
And lastly, I think you you all remember perhaps
when I retired in 93
some of the professional societies joined
and also my students joined
to institute a endowment price in my name B. V. A. Rao.
I didn't give any single price.
So, they have kept the money and every convocation,
it's given for the best student.
Now, because since we should all these things have got,
they are giving it for the Applied Mechanics.
Yeah. So, I have been now branded finally,
Applied Mechanics man not a mechanical man.
Do you remember some interesting anecdotes
and so on in which happened during your time, yeah?
Lot of it, lot. Lot. A few of them you can,
is a sort of interesting
which will be really recorded for memory sake,
I think you can tell, yeah.
Starting with Professor Kurt Haug,
Kurt and always remember,
recently he also died.
Yeah. A Professor Kurt as a great friend of mine.
When I worked with VIT for 12 or 13 years
Haug, his Haug his English was not so good.
So, every time he would tell my my husband,
sir we used to we used to correct. So, my wife;
not sir, not my husband
and my husband he would tell. Sir, doesn't matter.
So, he would say doesn't matter.
And I am taking about Wagner, Wagner once said Rao
I do not know what is wrong with these Tamilians.
See, Germany when you say, this means yes.
This means no. Only Vietnam is this means yes,
this means no, opposite.
I checked up recently Vietnam is it correct,
it is correct, but these Tamilains
when I tell something to do that you will say like this.
That means, it has got both components
vertical and horizontal components.
Both the rotation and linear motion are.
Sort of superimposed, ok.
So, like that you know we used to have a lot of.
You know Professor Wagner used to
perform magics in the campus you know. Magics.
You know that is how he was treated well in the the in the in the jails.
Yeah. Because he was also arrested after the war.
Ok. So, they were all involved you know that in the Second World War.
But this man used to do magic,
so by that they were all impressed
and they would give little separately something you know
treat them all a little bit. Wagner was a was a great man.
He also passed away recently, about a year ago.
So. Can you tell something about Professor Ramamurthy,
Professor Prabhu and.
Ramamurthy was a man, first man after I joined
Ramamurthy was a man
whom whom whom I interviewed also.
I was also in the interview at that time
because by the time you know they said because
no German professor was there and so I was involved.
He was he had a good record of
coming from IIT Kharagpur and other things and all that.
But he had not completed his PhD,
then he registered under Dr. R. S. Alwar
and then you know there was some problem etcetera
then I was that time in Germany and talk;
he finished his Germany.
After a PhD he wanted to be more independent.
Did my my my thing was
I said my knowledge must percolate
not only to the students,
but also to the industry people.
So, lot of industry people used to
come with dynamic problems and other things.
But problem is they were not really interested
in in what is that, working with other projects
or spending money on these things etcetera and all that.
They were not interested.
But I said I would discuss for hours with them
what can happen all this.
So, I used to also invite being number two here.
So, after that he went to Germany and came back
afterwards said Professor Rao
my rate will be 200 rupees per hour if you call me.
I cannot waste time with these people.
Thank you. So, that is a day
that is a day, I we never worked together,
for next 20 years, more than more than 20 years.
But but we are in the same laboratory, same people,
he also guided number of people etcetera
along with me and all that.
And he was great and you know
recently the I am I am more known outside the IIT
as B. V. A. means Bearing Vibration Acoustic Rao.
B. V. A. Rao almost introduced in every conference and seminar.
B. V. A. means Bearing Vibration,
that is three things which I introduced here.
Bearing means tribology, vibration,
acoustics that is the dynamics,
so which I introduced. So, was.
So, that is how it happened.
And I this condition mounting society of India,
I used to inaugurate
and he used to give key note address.
We used to work, we became close friends
and last you know when he was in the deathbed almost
with suffering from cancer, living in cancer,
we ourselves went and all that met I met twice
him, he was very jovial and talked etcetera and other thing.
So, so he was also remembering
some of the things etcetera about that one, ok.
Yeah, he was remembering that we used to do
lot of experiments in those days. That's why glorious tribute here
to to Ramamurthy also.
One more thing we should said,
we took a project for Bharat Dynamics Limited
that wire spool unwinding machine.
I used to take not only my laboratory,
from Mechanical I used to take,
I used to take from Electrical Engineering,
and also Electronics people
because it involved a lot of things etcetera and all
several time when one Professor Ramaswamy was there,
it is that time I used to take him.
We built a thyristor.
Thyristor was still you know new in those days etcetera.
So, a 15th 1500 kilo watt DC motor
has to drive a gearbox
running from 1500 to 15000.
At the end of which a disc with 400 mm
with a sonic speed,
very complicated set up we developed
for the biodynamics and then what happened
when everything was tested
and then was happening we took and put it there,
take the blast that the whole building went off.
You have seen one of the pictures like that
you getting a etcetera not that one,
but I showed in one of the later that disaster, disaster.
So, Ramaswamy said no, you you people,
your mechanical fellows are the failures.
So, I have all my energies wasted
in this developing this control etcetera and other things.
I won't come. Pandalai was Director, he said come later
then, so Pandalai has called me,
so the project was came to almost tell still this one.
So, this man said he will not come
and he will not again look into it.
So, that we we had no idea about that,
you has to only to know it.
At that time V. V. Sastry had then just come back from Germany,
I will take V. V. Sastry sir.
No, he does not know anything about this project etcetera.
Doesn't matter. I took V. V. Sastry, got it completed.
Then, a 2 months later
the Brigadier Antony was the Chief of the Bharath Dynamics,
wrote to me Professor Rao
although this is a classified project
it should not be publicized outside
because of the efforts you people have taken
I would like to recommend it to the invention motion body.
And I gave the name of Ramaswamy also.
Ramaswamy had stopped talking for me
it was that 6 months by that time
and then when he when he saw in the newspaper
that he got it, he was very excited that came become.
So, these are all, ok the part of the game.
Question is now everything was
was in the interest of the institution
and its growth and we never let down anybody outside
that any project has failed because of our efforts.
No, no I would like to mention that you know
nowadays people take pride in multidisciplinary
projects involving a number of departments and so on.
Even in those days I think such things were were happening,
I mean people were not knowing that
their they stress lot of importance on interdisciplinary,
multidisciplinary projects, but
that has been there right from the beginning.
I am humbled and honoured to receive
this accolade from the President World Federation.
I am equally grateful to the President of Institution
who nominated me to this honour
that I am receiving this international recognition
at this age of mine is a great wonder and satisfaction to me
that my efforts in this direction to share the knowledge
and academic experience with larger group of students
and professionals for nearly 55 years
has been greatly recognized today.
In this regard, I would like to share briefly the approaches
followed by me in engineering education, that's important,
all the time without any expectations of whatever nature.
Some more right from the beginning of my career
at IIT and other places, always believed
in wonder in order to wonder, which I acquired from
my earlier projects of Masters and PhD works.
This means that I always aimed towards
both breadth and depth competence
which many may not agree.
My wandering to different associated areas
in which I scarcely had knowledge
resulted in guiding large numbers of students
to get specialized in them
who in turn brought me later laurels.
This made me to believe more and more strongly
in wonder in order to wonder.
Only through wandering in unexplored new fields
we reap ultimately wonderful outcomes.
Perhaps a few of my earlier distinctions such as the fellowship of
the Indian National Academy of Engineering from INAE
in 1988, The National Design Award
from the Institution of Engineers in 2004
and The Golden Doctorate from the
Technical University addressed in Germany in 2011,
they gave 50 year later they given,
were all good promises.
Another strategy as strictly followed
from the beginning of my career
was to combine research and practice simultaneously.
Through several projects and consultations
I came closer to many industries
which in turn earned me many credits.
The outcome of all these undertakings was
to make others shine, make other shine
which would result ultimately in our own shining
getting shined of having contributed to
a couple of innovative industry leaders
an absolute present day
requirement to meet global challenges.
You know the Suresh, Suresh who was the ISRO Chairman
we have taught him vibrations taught a vibrations
such people you know big were Padmabhushan, Padmabushans,
they are all becoming all those people.
Many of those Padmabhushans are all by our students only.
In this regard, the steps taken etcetera
is recognized the importance of engineering education
towards the betterment of quality engineering
and industrial leadership is praiseworthy and most cherished.
So, I will just mentioned that
is a very important thing that most of our youngsters,
ok there may be experts,
very highly knowledgeable in their this thing
and and in computer computations experimentation.
But without if they do not work with hands
we don't do this type of projects,
so we we remain the same thing.
And we will we will not be able to
we we may get to this one, but that will never work.
So, ultimately what he did a country is,
we may have 1000s of papers, I don't want to name.
Some people have got 6000 papers, 600 PhDs,
not even one of them has seen the daylights,
they all go to their shelves.
But what what country is now looking at is
the people with that's it
how we should be something, something that
not even one equipment which I cannot work.
Even today we talk of anything,
we talk of C. V. Raman's Raman effect that's all.
Which other scientist which other great engineer has made.
For example, the same WFEO gives one medal
for construction management for a Civil Engineer,
not even one from India.
So many people from outside
because they are all developed lot of that type of
Civil Engineering jobs, they get it.
So, the question now is
somewhere we are, we lack in these things
and Nehru's policy of these IITs to go to the various countries
to get a new knowledge etcetera has been totally floored
because all the IITs are following the same pattern now today.
We should have got the German pattern,
Bombay should have got a Russian pattern,
we Delhi should have got the Delhi justice pattern.
If they had followed that type,
we would have knowledge from all those countries
here in this country and at least
we would have been much in a different way
in engineering education as well as the industrial development.
So, this is my message I would like to give to the Heritage
from our past experience.
And I thank you, thank Professor Narayanan
and professor other good old friends here who are all here.
So, who made this this one
and I promise that I will complete this report
and you promise that it will be kept for for
publicity etcetera and other things for people to read.
Is there anything else to go?
So, thank you Professor Rao.
It's very nice. Thank you Narayanan.
Talking to you. Yeah.
- Contribute
to the Centre -
Monetary
Support - Digital
Material
Prof. M. Ravindran in conversation with Prof. V.G. Idichandy
Professor Ravindran, I was trying to do some research
on your work that has been done during your career.
I have seen ... 4 different stages.
[Prof. Ravindran] Mm. [Prof. Idichandy] Probably, we will restrict the interview to these 4 stages
and it is probably for everybody who has done as much work as you
we have much more stages
but that we will see later on whether it can be added.
First one is of course, your childhood, schooling
and you studied in PSG College.
[Prof. Ravindran] Yes. [Prof. Idichandy] So, the first stage is up to completion of undergraduate
[Prof. Ravindran] Yes, yes. [Prof. Idichandy] in Mechanical Engineering in PSG.
Second stage though there is some employment in between,
but you came to IIT as a Technical Teacher Trainee.
[Prof. Ravindran] Yes. [Prof. Idichandy] And then you joined the faculty,
worked in Turbomachines Laboratory.
And ... I know fully well that
you're - your heart is more in the Turbo Machine Laboratory
wherein you know you have developed a lot of
experimental set up. So, that is the second stage.
Of course, in between you went to Germany
there also you had...you know,
made use of whatever is possible in Germany to ...
[Prof. Ravindran] Yes. [Prof. Idichandy] you know, get your Ph.D. done, back here in India.
So, that will be the second stage.
The third stage is, you know, Ocean Engineering,
because the Director has identified you as, you know,
faculty for Ocean Engineering to - to cut a lot of work ...
in establishing the department experimental facilities.
[Prof. Ravindran] Yes. [Prof. Idichandy] I know a little more in detail because I was also working
[Prof. Ravindran] Yes, yes. [Prof. Idichandy] with you at that time. So, therefore, that is the next stage.
Then there is a fourth stage probably
that is the biggest contribution that you have done
for the country in developing ocean technology.
That is the - as the Founder-Director of NIOT
which is an offshoot from IIT to start with,
but it has grown much beyond IIT
before you stepped down at the age of superannuation.
[Prof. Ravindran] Yes. [Prof. Idichandy] Later, if you add one more stage
it will be the stage wherein you are giving back to the society
and that is something which many people don’t do.
Those who are doing they may like to
pay some money and then forget about it.
But in your case, it is doing things
to make life in a very rural setting much more comfortable.
And your association with the - the tribal health initiative;
I mean these are something
which many of our friends should learn,
so that they give back to the society
what they have derived from it
and that is probably the fourth stage of your work, career.
Out of this, all different segments,
where do you - which one do you think is the most important?
[Prof. Ravindran] Why? [Prof. Idichandy] See, there are the [inaudible] the importance
it means to me personally and to the -
to the nations around - around the country.
I will [inaudible] that the contribution to the country
as a new development of an Institute of Ocean Technology
first time in our country is a contribution to the nation
because that has really started on a good way and if IIT and
we have not worked together,
that institute would not have come at all.
[Prof. Idichandy] Yes. [Prof. Ravindran] So, that was a very great effort and contribution to the nation
in the field of Ocean Technology.
The other one ... the social
society-related activity is giving me a great pleasure.
[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah. [Prof. Ravindran] Because there you see that...there are people who need of help
and we are able to give them some help
and they are extremely happy.
And you can see that it is useful to them, immediately.
So, that way I found that - that
these two are two different aspects, you know.
[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah. [Prof. Ravindran] This is a pride coming from our contribution
to the nation on high technology, new technology,
whereas, that is coming from contribution to humans.
From what is your capability, you are helping people and
and you are happy that it is useful to them.
So, these are two different things, at two different levels,
but both of things I - I give really good-
[Prof. Idichandy] Equal importance, ok. [Prof. Ravindran] - equal weightage to both of them.
[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah. I always look upon you as an institution builder.
It is not only in IIT,
wherein in Ocean Engineering Department
from practically nothing it has come to a stage
wherein it is one of the best laboratories in the country
and perhaps in South-East Asia
and NIOT - of course, there is no question.
I mean, I - I - I know that - that is, your heart was in that
almost nearly 10 years as Founder-Director
I think from practically nothing - a piece of paper
[Prof. Ravindran] Yes. [Prof. Idichandy] wherein MoU is written between IIT and DoD
to what you see in Pallikaranai right now is because of your planning,
and that way I think you can be
very very proud of as an institution builder.
[Prof. Ravindran] Yeah. [Prof. Idichandy] And of course, to the society what you are
[Prof. Ravindran] Yes. [Prof. Idichandy] giving back is something that is
[Prof. Idichandy] probably - [Prof. Ravindran] That came - that - by accidently - I didn’t plan for it
[Prof. Idichandy] Ok. [Prof. Ravindran] I didn’t want it.
Actually it came out of the interest of the IIT
[Prof. Idichandy] Ok. [Prof. Ravindran] to help the government to build this institution.
So, I mean the government
made a request to the then Director, IIT Madras,
[Prof. Idichandy] Yes. [Prof. Ravindran] and through the Dean, Professor Raju.
So, they said yes.
If at all somebody could develop this institute
only IIT Madras could initiate this;
we will provide the initial infrastructure, administrative support.
[Prof. Idichandy] Ok. [Prof. Ravindran] And they said, we need somebody to lead it.
We will also give you a person to lead it,
without even telling me they proposed my name.
[Prof. Idichandy] Now, that is the type of confidence the IIT system had in [Prof. Ravindran] So.
[Prof. Idichandy] Professor Ravindran's time. [Prof. Ravindran] I wore this tag only to the institute, IIT.
[Prof. Idichandy] And - and you have also proven the confidence that has been, you kow
put on you, ok.
[Prof. Idichandy] Let us go back to the stage one: [Prof. Ravindran] Yes.
[Prof. Idichandy] the childhood, your schooling [Prof. Ravindran] Yes.
[Prof. Idichandy] and upto BE, Mechanical Engineering [Prof. Ravindran] Yes.
[Prof. Idichandy] in PSG. [Prof. Ravindran] Yes.
[Prof. Idichandy] Briefly you can touch upon -
[Prof. Idichandy] it is more a biographical thing. [Prof. Ravindran] Yes.
[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah. [Prof. Ravindran] I came from a very small family
and my father was an accountant.
I studied in a school which was totally free in Virudhunagar
and I studied the pre-university also in a college
which is, you know, this thing.
And I had good academic record.
But ... my father was [inaudible] and he was sick that time,
and then he said "Okay, if you want to study Engineering
you put only one application,
[Prof. V. G. Idichandy laughs] if you get one admission at that time, you know,
go, otherwise we'll do some work here".
So, I applied and I got admission to B.Tech.
That's how I started my career.
Then, there also I involved myself
in learning the subject much better
and did lot of hands-on work
even for the final year B.Tech., BE I mean,
we did - some of our friends together,
we designed a working windmill
at that time, developing 300 watts
and put in the top of our Administrative Building
B.Tech which was working actually.
So, that was first happiness -
we said "We could design a machine".
[Prof. Idichandy] This is sometime in 1966. [Prof. Ravindran]'66.
[Prof. Idichandy] '66. [Prof. Ravindran] So,
[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah. [Prof. Ravindran] that was 66.
[Prof. Ravindran] So, that was long time ago- [Prof. Idichandy] So, before
[Prof. Ravindran] we fabricated. [Prof. Idichandy] windmills were not even
[Prof. Ravindran] known, yeah. [Prof. Idichandy] known at that time.
[Prof. Ravindran] Yeah. [Prof. Idichandy] Yeah, ok.
[Prof. Ravindran] Actually - [Prof. Idichandy] What was the motivation to do..
Actually, it was a funded project by CSIR,
one of the faculty has taken it and he left.
So, the institute was under constraint to complete the project
and the professor requested me
whether we could take it up and complete.
And that was one of the thing;
and it went as a report to CSIR for completion -
we were very proud of that.
[Prof. Idichandy] And ... for example, the blade. [Prof. Ravindran] Yes.
[Prof. Idichandy] You know, probably there were no design,
[inaudible] at that time. [Prof. Ravindran] Yes, yes, yes.
[Prof. Idichandy] How did you - how did you - [Prof. Ravindran] Actually.
[Prof. Idichandy] designed? [Prof. Ravindran] That's why, you know, I was basically - somehow ...
I had an inbuilt interest on turbomachinery.
So, when this request came ... there was a Russian book
and I requested one of the professors, Prof. Kandaswamy.
I said, "Please translate that
because there were no other books to
[Prof. Idichandy] Oh my god. [Prof. Ravindran] design the windmill. So, Russians had a book.
I forgot the name of it, but he translated and then
and there was one more book Putna, I remember that.
So, we designed, and I told, we incorporate a new device
because the - there was a previous model
made by that faculty who left.
[Prof. Ravindran] The base flew off when there were strong winds. [Prof. Idichandy] Oh my god.
[Prof. Ravindran] So, I was thinking you know
somehow we should have a speed limiting device.
[Prof. Ravindran] Something which is automatic. [Prof. Idichandy] Ok.
We thought about that and what we did was you know
we arranged the blades with the, yeah, bearing,
a sleeve bearing at the root, in the hub.
[Prof. Ravindran] So, due to the centrifugal force the blades will be moving
[Prof. Idichandy] Yes. [Prof. Ravindran] at a particular offset radially outwards.
At that time, the blades will have a pin in their axis
and the pin will be guided by a helical screw guide.
So that, as it moves out it will turn the pitch.
[Prof. Idichandy] Oh. [Prof. Ravindran] So, the automatically the angle of attack comes down.
So, the torque at high speeds automatically became less.
So, it was a self-regulating speed control.
[Prof. Idichandy] Technology is even today it is the same probably. [Prof. Ravindran] Similar, similar, yes.
[Prof. Ravindran] It is almost may be. [Prof. Idichandy] Yeah, now they have complicated the
[Prof. Ravindran] vane adjusting mechanisms, it's very expensive.
But on a small blade - machine like 300 watts.
We could afford it
nobody could provide such a complicated mechanism
of vane adjusting mechanism
which is similar to our turbine blades, no?
[Prof. Idichandy] Ok. [Prof. Ravindran] So, with this one itself, you know, it was spring-loaded.
See, it only works when the - the centrifugal force is too high
then they get back to the normals mode,
when the speeds are normal. So, that's what it is.
[Prof. Idichandy] So, it is really automatic. [Prof. Ravindran] Automatic, self-regulating.
[Prof. Idichandy] Ok. What about the generator?
[Prof. Ravindran] Generator we just bought... [Prof. Idichandy] Conversion and -
[Prof. Ravindran] locally - a car dynamometer, DC dynamometer: 300 watts. [Prof. Idichandy] Ok.
[Prof. Ravindran] So, it was a DC,
and it was a simply a
just a demonstration project that we could design
for a given wind speed.
[Prof. Ravindran] So there were some. [Prof. Idichandy] So, it like in similar projects you know
[Prof. Idichandy] you must have connected it to -
[Prof. Ravindran] Lamp load, yes. [Prof. Idichandy] Lamp load, and ...
[Prof. Ravindran] Lamp load. [Prof. Idichandy] And what was your feeling when the - the - the -
[Prof. Ravindran] It was very nice
and all the more happiness we got was our batch,
our group - 3 of us were given the Best Project Award
[Prof. Idichandy] Award. [Prof. Ravindran] by the faculty and we were taken
It was very nice. Professor
and Professor Subramanian, who was later Vice Chancellor of Bharathiar University.
He was my guide.
So, it was a nice feeling that something we have made works.
[Prof. Idichandy] Ok and - [Prof. Ravindran] Works for a long time. It is not that it will run for 2 days and stops.
So, that was a good feeling.
So, that's why when I came to IIT
when the Head of the Department
asked me which lab you want to go,
I said I want to go to Turbomachines Lab.
[Prof. Idichandy] Ok. We will come to that. [Prof. Ravindran] Yeah.
[Prof. Idichandy] But do you still continue your contacts with PSG, I mean some...
[Prof. Ravindran] Yeah, very little, but we have contact
but we have the Alumni Association,
but I am not continuing the technical contact.
So, I was continuing till about 5 years ago
because I was also the Naval Research
Board Chairman [inaudible]
and I was part of the RUTAG of IIT Madras.
So, in these connections, we were going for discussions
with them to do projects for us.
[Prof. Idichandy] Ok. [Prof. Ravindran] And, but they were a bit slow on that.
[Prof. Ravindran] So, they were not coming forward [Prof. Idichandy] Ok.
because they were always busy.
So, we lost interest in them basically, because the PhD people...
[Prof. Idichandy] I think, probably they have their own priorities. [Prof. Ravindran] Priorities, yes.
Because they were mainly concentrating on Undergraduate B.Tech.
[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah. [Prof. Ravindran] And the Mechanical Department was very good,
but they were not very keen on
[Prof. Ravindran] doing sponsored research funding. [Prof. Idichandy] Research funding.
Probably, they wanted to come out
[Prof. Idichandy] with larger number of graduates than... [Prof. Ravindran] Yes.
They are expanding that they have built one more institution,
they are on a - this thing,
expansion mode at the B.Tech. level, maybe little bit of M.Tech.,
but we have this alumni meetings for the last 51 years.
[Prof. Idichandy] Yes, yes. Every year. [Prof. Ravindran] It's still going on - every year.
[Prof. Idichandy] there we have and it is held only in the college itself. [Prof. Ravindran] No, not college.
[Prof. Idichandy] Oh, I see, different places. [Prof. Ravindran] We meet outside; except the 50th anniversary.
And the Silver Jubilee 25th anniversary,
all the other meetings are ... it's a family get-together
[Prof. Idichandy] Ok. [Prof. Ravindran] of classmates, it is nothing technical.
[Prof. Idichandy] Ok. [Prof. Ravindran] We meet, spend 2-3 days together,
and we are planning for a foreign trip this year,
next year - early next year - to Thailand.
[Prof. Idichandy] Oh, I see, ok. [Prof. Ravindran] 70 people are with me, 60 to 62 people, yes.
[Prof. Idichandy] Ok. Do you remember some of your very close friends
who have reached, you know, some stage
wherein you know, who have done very well - in - in - in - in -
[Prof. Ravindran] My BE? [Prof. Idichandy] contributing back ... your - your own batch.
Yes, yeah. There are many of them.
Some of the people were in BHEL Trichy,
they came out and started firms - consultancy firms,
engineering firms like Fishner and the - N. Chandrasekaran.
I think he became a big industrialist.
And in Coimbatore itself there is one Balasundaram,
who was in Electrical branch
and he is with that KG group and then
he is in charge of this Trigger Jeans company.
And he himself runs a stock broking.
[Prof. Ravindran] He has become a financial management man. [Prof. Idichandy] Ok.
And my own namesake, my roommate [inaudible]
they put people as per the alphabetical order.
So, I have another classmate named Ravindran
from a - that too, Mettupalayam - he is a industrialist.
He is making this, you know, paper - newspaper
actually he got in Madras, Andhra,
he a very successful man.
We have some people
employed in industries also: one Ranganathan,
who was given a President's Award,
he was a BAL Chief Executive, my own classmate in Bangalore.
[Prof. Idichandy] Ok, so - [Prof. Ravindran] Like that.
[Prof. Idichandy] That was perhaps, you know, after the graduation
probably you are always inclined to go for higher studies.
[Prof. Ravindran] Yes, that was my interest, actually. [Prof. Idichandy] Yeah.
because somehow you know when I started applying for...
when I started - about Engineering education
I came to know about -
I heard that IIT Madras has started, so I wanted to apply.
Sometime in February, March I was thinking,
then they said oh you fellow, you're
[Prof. Ravindran] too late. I never knew that we have to write an entrance exam. [Prof. Idichandy] Oh, time was over.
So, at that time itself I was thinking,
so IIT is something different, we should go.
But ... middle of my graduation
there was some compulsion from my family
that I should go for work.
So, when I saw this advertisement
for Technical Teacher Training Programme which was
Central Government's Programme, Ministry of Education,
to select candidates for, yeah, teaching career,
at that time itself, when there were
so few engineering colleges, they thought of
developing good faculty for engineering colleges.
So, they started this programme for providing Master’s degree
[Prof. Ravindran] as well as giving them training in teaching [Prof. Idichandy] Teaching.
in standard institution like IIT Madras and Anna University.
So, I applied for it. I was very really lucky to get selected.
So, we got almost double the scholarship compared to our M.Tech.
[Prof. Idichandy] Ok. [Prof. Ravindran] And we were also given an opportunity
to work in institution like IIT, work with German professors.
I think that was the greatest opportunity in my life, I thought.
My interest -so, I am just doing M.Tech., but this opportunity
to work with German professor - even short period,
I think that was a very great experience I could have.
[Prof. Idichandy] What was the year when you came to IIT Madras? [Prof. Ravindran] 1966.
[Prof. Idichandy] '66. [Prof. Ravindran] Immediately after graduation, I worked for 1 month
in a local Karaikudi Engineering College,
I left that, and I joined here - and that professor - that time he was
Professor Vijay Ram, who was later Guindy
[Prof. Idichandy] Oh, ok. [Prof. Ravindran] Principal, he said, "You should go to IIT".
He said, "You don't have to work in Karaikudi,
you please go to IIT.
So, he relieved me and then he said you go, so...
At that time, IIT was a great ambition in life
[Prof. Ravindran] you know 'we should get into IIT'. [Prof. Idichandy] Yes.
And then get M.Tech.
So, that was, so immediately came and joined here, '66.
[Prof. Idichandy] Ok. [Prof. Ravindran] August exactly.
[Prof. Idichandy] And ... probably, you know, you thought -
I - I - don't know whether you were always having an inclination
to work in the faculty of IIT
because after this 3 years of technical teacher-training
[Prof. Idichandy] you will be allotted some college by the [Prof. Ravindran] Yes.
[Prof. Idichandy] Government and- [Prof. Ravindran] Yes, yes.
But ... still you had interest in continuing in IIT in the faculty.
[Prof. Ravindran] It was like this. You see, the ... one of the conditions of the
selection for the Teacher Training Programme was that
we should serve at least 3 years in any engineering college
[Prof. Idichandy] Anywhere. [Prof. Ravindran] decided by the Ministry anywhere in India.
So, we had accepted that.
So, I had accepted the condition.
But I had a very lucky break, I should tell you now itself
because I don't know how many people had this opportunity.
During these 3 years, you know,
I was given ... very very tough task of
erecting certain test rig, very complicated test rigs;
fabrication, erection, testing by the German professor.
[Prof. Idichandy] This is in addition to your [Prof. Ravindran] To the
[Prof. Idichandy] course work. [Prof. Ravindran] yes yes, course work.
He said, "Your course work is your own personal benefit"
because that was - he was a very tough -
that's why not many people
[Prof. Ravindran] wanted to work under this Professor Scheer. [Prof. Idichandy] And [inaudible]
[Prof. Ravindran] I have great respect for him. [Prof. Idichandy] ... has a German attitude.
German. And he said, you know,
at that time there were many German professors
in IIT Madras - in Mechanical and Civil there were.
But what they did was
they brought equipments and erected them.
So, they could develop the laboratories fast.
Well, this Professor Scheer said "No, I want you guys
to design, fabricate, and erect and operate."
So, this was a very slow, painful process.
And it was very tough;
not many people wanted to do this - faculty.
So, the initial faculty ran away from him.
So, let’s say when I told you other day that
when Head of the Department
asked me where do you want to go,
I say I want to do Turbomachinery.
He said "Don't come and cry to me
that I ruined your career."
I said, "What is wrong with Turbomachines Lab?"
Later only, I knew that because of his very tough attitude
that doing work is only thing,
he will never give leave,
you have to do all the drawings yourself,
you go to the central workshop, get them fabricated,
erect, everything we had to do
like a very factory-level
which many of the initial faculty didn’t want.
[Prof. Idichandy] And most of it were done by you, alone? [Prof. Ravindran] No, there was a -
[Prof. Idichandy] Probably technical help. [Prof. Ravindran] That - that was the advantage, you know
the German design was that each laboratory -
we had at that time 10 laboratories in Mechanical Engineering -
had its own full quota of technical staff and equipment
[Prof. Ravindran] like lathe, milling machine, shaping machine. [Prof. Idichandy] Yeah yeah.
Small milling machine for tool making, this one;
drill - huge drilling, radar drilling machines.
So, we were well-equipped
to do the fabrication within ourself.
Whatever could not be done could be done in central workshop.
[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah. [Prof. Ravindran] So, most of the equipment like all the welding equipment
gas welding, arc welding, everything was provided to us
and this professor will come and supervise that
we are doing it correctly.
So, that is the best training period I ever had.
Then he will say, "I am going to teach Turbomachines.
All you guys come and attend."
So, me, along with Professor Venkatrayulu
who was at that time my batchmate,
we used to carry all the equipment
of turbomachinery models, you know,
to the class and he will explain,
I one of the best teacher in practical things.
So, compared to what I learnt in undergraduate,
I learnt more attending his lecture in IIT
by Professor Scheer on Turbomachines: on theory,
design, fabrication, and performance test.
Complete, it was a total course.
[Prof. Idichandy] Which - which university in Germany he was associated?
He was associated with Braunschweig.
[Prof. Idichandy] Braunschweig. [Prof. Ravindran] Technical University of Braunschweig.
And he was - he was - he was a war veteran,
then he has completed his Ph.D.
and when he came here none of [inaudible] were available,
so he was teaching Drawing.
He was also designated as Professor of Drawing.
So, he used to be a very meticulous instructor for drawing.
So, he will say: everything should have a drawing,
even if you make a chalk piece holder,
there should be a drawing.
So, he designed a system of designation of drawings,
numbering of drawings, storing them and assembling them - he got,
get - got his equipment to keep drawings properly.
All those things are still available after almost 50 years.
[Prof. Idichandy] Ok. [Prof. Ravindran] You can even [inaudible].
So, that this way, he taught us meticulously.
I was in charge some of the keys, you know,
every key in the laboratory,
every table key, every door key, every cupboard key
will have a duplicate, it will be in a central key board.
I was a key manager in that - key-in-charge,
like that, you know.
About everything, there was perfect discipline,
he taught us, yes.
[Prof. Idichandy] No wonder that you transfered many of these things, you know.
[Prof. Ravindran] So, that is the best part of my learning
in my life, was that 3 years
I went to Professor Scheer.
[Prof. Idichandy] Now, with Turbomachines Laboratory which you have completed
[Prof. Idichandy] your Master's in 3 years. [Prof. Ravindran] Yes. Yes.
Before I come to a very pertinent question which is
about the situation of laboratories
in - in - in IIT Madras in the present.
Was there any offer from the Government of India
for to you to go to some college after completion of it?
[Prof. Ravindran] That is - I was just -
I was about to say that, you know,
after I submitted my Ph.D. thesis with the
fabrication of test rig for the axial flow welding machine,
then I took an extra project title
of studying the inlet flow region of axial pumps.
So, that was also experimental, theoretical.
So, when I put all this work together -
in the 3 years of work, together -
it became so thick
and I presented the entire result to the committee,
Professor Thirunarayanan was the examiner,
[Prof. Ravindran] Head of the Department of IAC. [Prof. Idichandy] Ok.
In Mechanical Engineering - was the exam,
that - that - that was the level
[Prof. Ravindran] at which M.Tech. exams were held at that time. [Prof. Idichandy] Ok.
[Prof. Ravindran] Even though I - I don’t think we get those people in for [Prof. Idichandy] No, no.
[Prof. Ravindran] Ph.D.s now. He came and asked
"What, Ravindran, after all you are going to be -
after all you are going to be a teacher,
why have you done so much of work -
design, fabrication, experiments, making probes, calibrating them."
Then, I told - at that time, I had the offer from Calicut University
[Prof. Ravindran] to go, I had the offer. [Prof. Idichandy] Ok.
[Prof. Ravindran] I told him, "Sir,
any teacher should have the capability and confidence
to design machines, fabricate them, erect them,
and make them work successfully
for the design specification as made.
I have done this. I have this confidence
so wherever I go, I will be a good teacher
because I can teach the students how to
design, fabricate, commission, with all practical knowledge.
So, wherever I will go I will be a good teacher," I told him.
Then, the Head of the Department was present:
Narayan, he was Head of the YOC.
[Prof. Idichandy] Oh, board. [Prof. Ravindran] Board.
He said "He need not go anywhere,
myself and Venkatrayulu, my batchmate,
they can join us as faculty tomorrow."
Just like that. On the viva examination day,
he said they can join on ad hoc basis
[Prof. Ravindran] and which was at the time - Dr. Ramachandra was the director. [Prof. Idichandy] Ok.
He got us [inaudible] as a faculty few months later.
That's how I entered as a faculty, my transition from
teacher trainee to faculty happened in
'69 August - September - on the viva day.
I don’t think many people would have had this lucky chance
[Prof. Ravindran] to become a - [Prof. Idichandy] No, I do not think there will be any comparison account anywhere anytime, later also.
Because to get into this, you know,
[Prof. Ravindran] you have to go through so much of process. [Prof. Idichandy] Yeah.
[Prof. Ravindran] Whereas, just like that we got into IIT. [Prof. Idichandy] Ok.
[Prof. Idichandy] Now, you are a person who has been down to earth. [Prof. Ravindran] Yes.
So, you know working in the laboratory,
designing your own stuff,
getting it fabricated, I mean, totally hands-on.
What do you think about the present engineers?
I am not asking about IITs at all.
If you go to a typical engineering college
wherein, you know, graduates are produced,
do you think they get - they are lucky to get into
[Prof. Idichandy] you know, such type of an education? [Prof. Ravindran] No, not, except in few institution.
[Prof. Ravindran] Bulk of the present engineering students
do not get this opportunity.
One of the reason being, in the last decade has been that
the IT companies came and selected them,
and gave them some jobs
totally unconnected with what they study.
So, slowly the students lost interest in hands-on work.
The faculty also thought it was unnecessary to train them
[Prof. Ravindran] because anyway they get a job. [Prof. Idichandy] Correct.
[Prof. Idichandy] And that has nothing to do with what they learn. [Prof. Ravindran] Yes.
[Prof. Ravindran] So, sometime the offers came in the 3rd year itself,
so 4th year they never learned anything.
So, now, that's why some of the ...
the government rule has come that
you should come for campus only in the 4th year.
I think this is a very negative aspect
because, what for we train engineers,
they should have a problem-solving capability
for their own interest is around them,
[Prof. Ravindran] you can also do R and D. [Prof. Idichandy] Yes.
Excellence, then you publish, take patents,
that's one way of going up in your career.
But otherwise you are supposed to transfer your capability
to problem-solving practical industries,
[Prof. Ravindran] develop something what society needs. [Prof. Idichandy] Yeah.
[Prof. Idichandy] Can somebody design a machine?
So, that capability is totally missing.
So, many people ask me to come and teach,
I say I don’t want.
But one of the college now I am going I am stressing this,
I making them do hands-on work,
you know, all the few institution
where I am just mentoring. I am stressing,
but 85 percent of the students
who are getting undergraduate degrees,
they don't get this hands-on experience at all.
[Prof. Idichandy] Unfortunately, teachers are also not
very - very much inclined to take that type of offer.
[Prof. Ravindran] Because they have never seen an industry. [Prof. Idichandy] Yes.
[Prof. Ravindran] I can give you one disastrous situation.
I will not tell the institution.
I was talking to a faculty
who was a student of the same college.
It seem one student asked: "Sir" - Electrical student -
"Sir, I have not seen a induction motor".
This faculty, he said, I myself has not seen one".
[Prof. Ravindran] You - this is the status of the faculty. [Prof. Idichandy] Yeah.
[Prof. Ravindran] What good is the degree of the
undergraduate student studying under him?
So, I think it's very very important that
we should come back to this hands-on experience
by making it compulsory for the institutions
to work with industries
[Prof. Ravindran] and for students to work with industrial problems. [Prof. Idichandy] Yeah.
[Prof. Ravindran] That is my - that is the sad part of the Engineering education today.
[Prof. Idichandy] Don't you think that to some extent that has also
come into the IIT system, you know wherein probably
[Prof. Idichandy] they are little better off than the normal in various - [Prof. Ravindran] Yeah.
[Prof. Ravindran] My own experience - see, because
that was very clearly expressed by the ...
some of the visiting professor who came for the
50th anniversary of the Indo-German collaboration.
Some of - Professor Scheer himself was there,
his assistants were all there,
but some of the remarks were very very painful to hear.
Saying that the facility which they have created in the
late '60s, early '70s, were all
coming down in its quality and effectiveness,
and IIT Madras never took an initiative to upgrade them.
[Prof. Idichandy] Ok. [Prof. Ravindran] Especially, Professor Lutz was
almost crying. You see, his boilers and steam turbines
[Prof. Ravindran] have disappeared. [Prof. Idichandy] Yes.
And our own lab, even though some physicists are working
the original he brought, some turbines product,
they were all corroded and - this thing - they were not replaced.
So, and the - the - the - workshop manpower not there.
So, the students were very reluctant to take up
Master's and Ph.D. programmes in such labs.
[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah. [Prof. Ravindran] I think that has killed the initiative on
hands-on experience for the people
plus we did so much of work: we used to work in the lathe,
and the milling machine ourselves to manufacture, weld ourselves,
we had training in welding because number of pipelines were,
14 is pipeline, we used to weld for the test rigs.
So, that type of experience our students are not being given
by default, you know, because we don't have the manpower.
So, people are staying away, okay, if we go for equipment work,
I have to get all the things in -
fabricated outside, it is time consuming, it is expensive,
easy way to sit before the computer to do some modeling.
Easily you can publish papers, you can get your M.Tech. or Ph.D.,
that seems to be the trend nowadays.
[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah. [Prof. Ravindran] Even in IITs.
I am not very happy with that because that may be good for
getting our admissions abroad and
going thing but that is not expected
for engineer to contribute to the local industries.
I am very - very very particular about that
that IIT is not contributing enough
to the hands-on experience of students.
Even the number of those days we used to have
[Prof. Ravindran] workshop week completely. [Prof. Idichandy] Yeah.
Whole week they used to work in all the lab,
Workshops at Central Workshop,
Carpentry, Smithy, Machine Tools lab, Welding lab.
[Prof. Ravindran] Nowadays, that workshop also is reduced. [Prof. Idichandy] Yeah.
And one of the contributing factors is
that the 5-year programme came - became 4-year programme.
They expect lot of work to go into the plus 2.
[Prof. Idichandy] Yes. [Prof. Ravindran] But that didn’t happen.
We lost something in this process.
Engineering education lost some
very precious time in educating them and
this is because we lost 1 year of the instruction period.
[Prof. Idichandy] Ok. But coming to the students' point of view
because once, one of my
friend's son who joined Computer Science here,
he asked me: "Why should I do Workshop because in my lifetime
I will never even look at any of these machines
because it is not necessary."
And slowly from Computer Science the same question
is being asked even by Mechanical Engineers
you know: "Why should I do Workshop,
why should I dirty my hand
when I can get, you know, complete my courses
and also complete my project without -
[Prof. Ravindran] Yes. [Prof. Idichandy] -dirtying my hands and all."
That is looking ... very narrow approach to life.
You see, you can be a Computer Science Engineer
be a Computer Science man all the time,
look at servicing of computers
or develop computer language, hardware, software all that;
that means, your part of life is restricted
to a very small group of experts.
But in a field like Mechanical Engineering,
you can do computer simulations, test analysis,
software pactice all that you can - be -
do with only with computer knowledge.
[Prof. Ravindran] But finally, who will make - hardware?
[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah. [Prof. Ravindran] Somebody has to produce things,
things around us - who is manufacturing them,
who designs the machines to manufacture them,
who - machines the - who manufactures the tools
dyes, tool bits, to machine this,
material development, machining process,
finishing process - who does that?
He has to be a practical engineer.
Who developed that - interface is - totally, that's why
we are not making any new machines in our country.
[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah. [Prof. Ravindran] We buy and use them.
[Prof. Idichandy] Yes. [Prof. Ravindran] Are we making new machines?
Are we designing new machines?
Are we developing new technologies?
Are we taking new patents which are possible to be made
for our own industry? That is our weakness,
unless we improve upon this
physical hands-on experience for our own engineers,
we are going to be always a
second generation of machine users.
So, to make our Make in India
successful you think that the entire
engineering education has to be revamped.
Definitely. See, nowadays Make in India is import technology,
[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah. [Prof. Ravindran] use the factory - you are using our
cheap labour - that is not Make in India.
Make in India is really that you design,
make our R and D laboratories,
technology laboratories - you - to make mistakes and design,
give them time, and a chance to make mistakes and learn
hands-on experience, develop their own machines,
support them. Where do we support them -to make?
[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah, unfortunately that is the situation.
[Prof. Ravindran] Unfortunately, in Defence also,
the same thing is happened.
I have seen in Defence Laboratory,
you have seen in Defence Laboratories.
Lot of work is done, but they will never buy the final product.
There are some Western interest, difficulties,
maybe some of them are not reliable,
materials are not the best, but
we should give them a chance to improve.
In many case like space,
we have proven that we can do wonders.
[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah. [Prof. Ravindran] Why the same chance is not being
given to other industries?
The support that ISRO enjoys today
or Atomic Energy enjoys today,
Science and Technology Bombay is not enjoying.
Human Resource Department is not enjoying
that is why our education system is suffering.
Science and technology is suffering.
Technology development is suffering.
Because our education systems also fall into that trap
that we make people more computer-based,
not hardware-based at all, thanks for the [inaudible].
[Prof. Idichandy] See, unfortunately the - the - ultimately what happens is
even the faculty who are joining,
many of them do not have - any - any hands-on experience at all.
Yes. Similar thing will happen, I told you
one faculty said in one of the - "I have not seen induction machine".
Same thing will happen to some of these people.
High-tech Computer Science engineers or high-tech
Chemical engineer, he may - he may not see a
lathe or this thing, he may not be able to do any work.
So - that should not - we should not allow this
degradation of the practical knowledge to happen
in our hands-on experience
Yeah, let us hope that I mean your -
this voice will reach some stage wherein, you know, there will be some -
[Prof. Ravindran] That is my sadness here, that - [Prof. Idichandy] Like many [inaudible]...
[Prof. Ravindran] Because I started my career
with so much of this thing and all
I see before my eyes, yeah, change of trend.
Many people thinking that we don’t have to do this.
The younger generation thinks that
hands-on experience is not required,
that is my saddest feeling as a engineer,
as a Mechanical Engineer, or Ocean Engineer.
[Prof. Idichandy] Shall we stop for some time or -
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] We - we cannot, sir. [Ms. Mamata Dash] 10 minutes,
[Ms. Mamata Dash] another 10 minutes. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] We have another 10 minutes
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] which we can use. [Prof. Idichandy] 10 minutes.
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. Ok
[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] before we need to stop.
[Prof. Idichandy] Now, I can understand your, you know, hard feeling
because you have done so much to the laboratory,
it has been brought to a certain stage,
have you visited the laboratory again -
not before - or after that 50th Golden Jubilee here?
I have been visiting especially, Ocean Centre I have visited,
but Turbomachines Laboratory
I think once or twice I have gone.
But things are not very
very well because the number of faculty.
[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah. [Prof. Ravindran] See, for example,
I am attached to the Turbomachines Laboratory
because no institution or country
is teaching the turbomachines similar to what
the German system has introduced here.
Pumps, turbines, steam turbines or gas turbines,
they all are taught in a unified theory
and special fluid related properties are solved separately.
So, we have two groups of turbomachines.
And the knowledge those days
we used to have Turbo Machine lectures for 2 years
in the 5 year stream. So, a person could
without any knowledge of pumps or turbines earlier
could design the turbine, fabricate.
So, all of M.Tech. students those days
do a fabrication of a pump or a turbine and do the testing,
that was our standard at that time.
[Prof. Idichandy] Ok. [Prof. Ravindran] That - that means, when they could
[inaudible] what does industry need
the R and D department, we
develop engineers for R and D department.
So, we want him to be capable of designing a new system
or modify the existing impeller to a new application,
modify the materials to a new fluid being handled,
a slurry pump or a turbine.
So, even the faculty: Professor Prithviraj or
everybody was able to design hands-on things.
I think that - what is - is - helping
the development of new machines, new ideas
can be transformed into new hardware;
if you have that practical knowledge of doing that,
but if you are sitting before a computer
only, that becomes very difficult.
Because I - I - I forgot to tell you also that turbine
the research, obviously, I did it on a reversible pump turbine,
actual turbine - developing about 50 kilowatts of power
the entire rotors were machined by me right from scratch
from a bronze metal. I cast the material [inaudible]
Deckel Milling machine because they didn’t have labour
I worked in the [inaudible] I brought in my personal suitcase all these
machine components and assembled here and tested it.
I tested for 9 months, day and night.
My thesis will be ... external work is so much;
all the associated message systems calibrating them.
Nowadays, these people do not know what is an error analysis,
what is fabrication of a probe, 3-dimensional probe or
how do you measure the flow field in a
impeller - nobody knows. They can do maybe a
computer simulation, but how do you validate your -
[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah. [Prof. Ravindran] Computational Fluid Mechanics.
[Prof. Idichandy] That is something missing in our [Prof. Ravindran] That is something...is very
[Prof. Ravindran] much missing in our present training programme. [Prof. Idichandy] Ok.
Immediately, after you know, the initial stages I think
you had an opportunity to go - go to Germany
[Prof. Idichandy] on a - under a DAAD scholarship. [Prof. Ravindran] Yes.
Yeah, that was immediately after joining in 1971
after I finished my M.Tech.
there was an opportunity: I applied for a scholarship
to the Government of India, at that time there was a
all India quota and IIT Madras enjoyed a -
[Prof. Idichandy] Special [Prof. Ravindran] private quota, but I was too junior.
So, I could not get that.
So, I applied - I was lucky to get that lucky break I had.
So, I went along with senior people of my faculty
who were my teachers,
I went with them to Germany for training
and worked in a laboratory. There also, I had an opportunity
where the professor said we should teach - learn -
speak to me only in German language,
learn the language very nicely and do the work here.
You start an all these lectures in German language.
So, that also and they gave me total freedom
to develop the - even though I didn’t know
how computer program at that time.
Those days IBM 370 was the only computer
in IIT Madras and the telephone equivalent was there.
We used to have 2000 cards for the code.
So, all that was learned by me, newly in Germany
they supported me and when I wanted
to fabricate the turbine, they said, ok, I approached a private
company called Deckel Mill, actually we have lot of
copy milling machines from them.
When it was - I'm from IIT Madras, I would like to go, he said
we don’t have people, but you are welcome to
[Prof. Ravindran] come and use our machines. [Prof. Idichandy] I see.
I worked there, machined myself, 4 months, like maybe about
26-27 different types of blades, assembled them.
[Prof. Idichandy] It is not a copying - [Prof. Ravindran] Copying only, means
[Prof. Ravindran] but different types you know. [Prof. Idichandy] Ok.
13 blades of guide blades, axial for guide blades
and then 3 different rotors with 3 different profiles.
Each rotor having 6 blades.
I have to make them. So, cast them,
then copy mill them, finish them, check their profile,
if necessary, modify it.
I brought them, ok, assembled them;
[Prof. Ravindran] random at 2000 rpm which is not that you know. [Prof. Idichandy] Yeah.
[Prof. Ravindran] It is a real pump, real turbine what kind of pump
and turbine it was a machine for tidal performance.
So, associated planning of the
performance: how is the flow
distribution, 3-dimensional flow,
3-dimensional components of velocity
static pressure, dynamic pressures,
flow rates, completely measured,
then mechanical power, speed, torque, accurately.
So, that was the work - that was the...
[Prof. Idichandy] How long you were there in Germany?
[Prof. Ravindran] Nearly 2 and half years I was there.
[Prof. Idichandy] That was [Prof. Ravindran] Apart from language course;
[Prof. Ravindran] no, including language course. [Prof. Idichandy] Including language,
[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah. It was completely in a Technische University
[Prof. Idichandy] that [Prof. Ravindran] Munich, Munich, it was in the Munich.
And it was totally, it was a very nice experience
because there I could really see
the total advancement of
technology, experimental technology;
to measure things in a rotating machine,
that is measure the flow velocities static pressures.
On the rotor blade, transfer them through the slip rings
physically and then take the signal out and
it's ready for our interface, those days.
And even the 3-dimensional velocity probes
where you have the radial common velocity
[Prof. Ravindran] in water had minute as you know the cool it once. [Prof. Idichandy] Yeah.
6 of them in a 5 millimetre base
such was the quality of manufacture.
So, that was - that was real learning.
And since I could speak German language fluently,
I could talk to them and learn lot of this
very nicely because there I had my family with me - wife,
[Prof. Ravindran] son, so, we enjoyed ourselves. [Prof. Idichandy] I am surprised you know, how can -
[Prof. Idichandy] you said you got in Deckel, no.
[Prof. Ravindran] Deckel Milling Machine, yes.
How is that, you know, the...totally, you know, a strange
person from a very strange country
they just leave the equipment to you to
[Prof. Idichandy] you know fabricate whatever you want. [Prof. Ravindran] Yes.
That - that - that is what you know, the
universities had such a big respect from industries
[Prof. Ravindran] so, when somebody from a [Prof. Idichandy] Sure.
institute wants to come and work for their research,
they offer the facilities.
They like to involve with work.
[Prof. Idichandy] Ok. [Prof. Ravindran] With industries, you know.
I had a person from
who make automatic gears - car,
he is a CEO of the company.
So, when the university requested him to
come and take lectures on Hydraulic Systems
because it was the Hydraulic Torque Converters no,
he left half the job and then he said
1 hour per week only he will be take class,
but he said, I should be called only professor.
So, they have such a major
[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah. [Prof. Ravindran] respect for university systems.
And he used to take all the students to his company,
take them around give them good gifts
of tool kits, I still have those [inaudible] which is
[Prof. Ravindran] 55 years old. [Prof. Idichandy] Ok.
So, that was the respect of the
university by the industrial people.
So, you were in Munich two and half years
and you know Munich is most famous for its beer.
[Prof. Ravindran] Yes. [Prof. Idichandy] And the Oktoberfest.
[Prof. Ravindran] Yes. [Prof. Idichandy] I still wonder
how you have not even tasted beer.
[Prof. Ravindran] Yeah. At that time,
yeah, the problem was that, you know, that German beer
is the purest beer in the world. [Prof. Idichandy] Yeah
[Prof. Ravindran] By law they have prevented any
[Prof. Ravindran] flavors being added. [Prof. Idichandy] Added.
[Prof. Ravindran] So, so the German beer is very bitter.
I never loved the taste for German beer. [Prof. Idichandy] Ok.
to Oktoberfest where they drink from
11 o’clock in the morning to 11 o’clock in the night,
it is fun. People drink, eat, drink and then play music.
[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah. [Prof. Ravindran] It’s called the Oktoberfest music.
[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah. [Prof. Ravindran] All trumpets only.
So, in a tent there are about 30,000 people
sitting and eating and drinking and dancing.
[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah. [Prof. Ravindran] Great fun
but beer itself we never had a taste,
[Prof. Ravindran] but that beer is really bitter. German beer is [Prof. Idichandy] Ok.
[Prof. Ravindran] really bitter. [Prof. Idichandy] And they always consume
[Prof. Idichandy] the beer in 1 litre. [Prof. Ravindran] 1 litre.
[Prof. Ravindran] They don't sell anything less than 1 litre these - Oktoberfest time.
[Prof. Idichandy] Ok. Yeah. After your
very successful teaching, research, as well as
doing your - completing your Ph.D., everything,
after completing in the Turbomachines Laboratory, you joined
or shall I say you were forced to join Ocean Engineering Department.
No, not that way, but something
really happened, you know, at that time
the Director was Professor P. V. Indiresan. Indiresan.
And the Head of the Laboratory was Professor Raju.
So, Professor Indiresan is one person who wanted
the different faculty from different departments to work
together and take up major projects for
industries as interdisciplinary projects.
So, you will give me a thrust.
In this process, he formed a number of interdisciplinary
[Prof. Idichandy] Research groups. [Prof. Ravindran] research groups from [inaudible] faculty from
Electrical, Mechanical, Civil, Computer Science etcetera;
when they were taking up lot of projects, industrial projects
like the micro project in Shivaganga and all that.
So, they were doing that and at that time
there was a special interest on
renewable energy from the oceans
and Professor Indiresan felt that if at all anybody
could do the work on ocean energy,
it could be only IIT Madras Ocean Engineering Centre
and we should take initiative.
So, he took the interest to call for a
formation of a group of industry - faculty
to work on renewable energy sources from the ocean.
So, from the turbomachinery side, myself and Venkatrayulu were...
we volunteered to work
on the design of pumps and turbines, aspects of both
Ocean Thermal Energy and Wave Energy.
And there were people from
Ocean Engineering Centre like Professor Vendhan,
an instrumentation group like yourself and
Professor Bhattacharya, and Civil Engineering group
people maybe Professor Aravindan was
very - this thing - Electrical group,
Professor Laxmi Narayana. And Jagadeesh Kumar.
[Prof. Idichandy] Okay. [Prof. Ravindran] They were all ... involved.
So, we started working on very very preliminary
designs of Ocean Thermal Energies [inaudible] to start with.
And at that time, the Government of India started the
[Prof. Ravindran] new department of ocean development [Prof. Idichandy] Development.
[Prof. Ravindran] under the Ministry of Science and Technology.
Dr. Qasim, who went to Antarctica for the first
time taking the group from us, was made the secretary
and Professor Indiresan was always in touch with him.
And then Professor Indiresan
said that we are going to start this initiative
and Dr. Qasim said he will support that.
So, at that time the ministry of - or the department of
non-conventional energy source also was there
who had interest on Ocean Energy.
So, from these two departments of
Ocean - Ocean Development and
Ministry of Non-Conventional Energy Sources,
Professor Indiresan arranged some funding to be given
and formulated...created a cell called Ocean Energy Cell
[Prof. Ravindran] as a part of the Ocean Engineering [Prof. Idichandy] Centre.
[Prof. Ravindran] Centre of IIT Madras with industrial faculty.
So, at that time because we were
taking active part from Mechanical Engineering group on
pumps and turbines, aspects of both the
wave energy and this thing.
And he was also requesting us to develop the - or to
complete the wavemaker insulation,
[Prof. Ravindran] at that time which was bought from Germany and the installation was delayed. [Prof. Idichandy] Ok.
[Prof. Ravindran] As a person interested in turbomachinery,
especially there was a special
bi-directional airflow uni-directional turbine
called Wells turbine, which was of tremendous interest
for the Wave Energy Programme.
I wanted to work further on that.
So, we volunteered to commission that
wave energy, wavemaker in Ocean Engineering Centre.
So, first our job was - my job was to
commission as a faculty of Mechanical Engineering.
I offered support to commission that wavemaker
which was commissioned in about 6 months; we worked
day and night. Then, Professor Indiresan said, "Ravindran
now we know because there were no Mechanical Engineers
part of the faculty of Ocean Engineering at that time,
they were all only Civil Engineers,
structural engineers and instrumentation group headed by you.
So, there was no Mechanical Engineer there."
So, he said "We need you."
I was bit hesitating, saying that I had research students working in
Turbomachines Laboratory, then they said you could be a
adjunct faculty and all.
Then, when this funding came, specifically from both the ministries
to create a cell, he wanted somebody to head that
and he wanted me, I was bit reluctant, but he forced me to
apply - appear for it even though I didn’t apply.
So, I was given the opportunity to start this activity on
renewable energy from the oceans
and he could recruit more younger faculty, research staff
from other IITs also, from IIT Kharagpur, example
and then we started major activity
to study the different aspects of wave energy conversion,
the system which is practically useful for India,
for the type of wave climate we have in India.
The components of the system
where we select this system called Oscillating Water Column System,
there was work for optimizing the
hydrodynamic shape of that wave absorbing.
This converts the energy from the wave from the
waves to the air trapped in a chamber under [inaudible].
Then from the air to a mechanical shaft
through a turbine which is this bi-directional airflow turbine,
then a generator for it which will convert this mechanical energy
into air flow energy and pump power to the grid.
So, we had to design the total loop.
So, even though Professor Indiresan was a bit
in a hurry to do that we recommended that we have
3 research groups, independently,
to work on the hydrodynamic gas turbine energy
conversion of wave to water, air, hydrodynamic part of it.
Then, the mechanical turbomachine aspect of the
design of a special turbine
for pneumatic to mechanical conversion
and advice from electrical engineers to
select the right type of
machinery to convert cheap machinery to convert
mechanical to electrical engineering.
So, we had 3 different research topics given to Ph.D.
[Prof. Idichandy] Students. [Prof. Ravindran] students and we did a very good work
and based on that confidence,
then, we told Professor Indiresan we can go for a
field plant and we selected a site
at Vizhinjam, Kerala. We built one,
one of the first of its kind in the world, you know,
to generate 150 kilowatts. That was also a very big
learning crosses for us because it consisted of a caisson
3000 tons in weight. We built it on the - on the
harbour, Vizhinjam harbour, towed it to the site
and seated it 10 metre. Our first attempt failed
because of many reasons: we didn't have right tug,
we use some prefabricated
technology for slabs connecting them,
it started leaking, so...
[Prof. Idichandy] Probably, you could not also get contractors who can do
[Prof. Ravindran] Yes so [Prof. Idichandy] this type of -
Professor Raju used his contact with Larsen Toubro.
He said it is a national programme,
so they have to help us. So, like that
the Vice President of Larsen Toubro,
[Prof. Ravindran] Dr. Ramakrishnan. [Prof. Idichandy] Ramakrishnan.
Ramakrishnan was there and he agreed, even though
it was not a profitable business for them - it was
a technology demonstration capability of Larsen Toubro
for this project. First of its kind there caisson; fabricated
and floated out and then rest of the equipments
assembled on it, built a bridge to the shore which has
seated 50 metres away from the near breakwater.
So, that was also a tremendous
learning process and demonstration of capability of IIT Madras
on all the aspects and we commissioned that,
that's how I got involved then.
When we did that Professor Indiresan said
we want you to permanent -
I was a deputation of Mechanical to
this thing; then he said, "No, we want you to
permanently be in Ocean Engineering Centre."
So, I became a permanent faculty
of Ocean Engineering Centre.
And at that time only, also,
we have commissioned the second stage of German
support to us. We expand our facility to include
multi-element wavemaker. We formed a group of
multidisciplinary faculty from IIT, Ocean Engineering Centre,
your group and Sundaravadivelu's group doing the structural connections
and we did the mechanical part of that
[inaudible] running the sophisticated wave-making facility,
3-dimensional wavemaking
facility which was full of hydraulics.
Very complicated system of first of its kind installed.
And that way that time it was a
first thing which happened that
2 million German marks were used
[Prof. Ravindran] to buy an equipment not from Germany. [Prof. Idichandy] Yes.
[Prof. Ravindran] We bought that from Denmark. [Prof. Idichandy] Denmark.
So, that was also another thing we could,
because I was Head of the Department
we could convince the German representative
who was staying with us, one Dr. ?? We want the
best equipment which is affordable.
The German equipment was very very expensive.
An extension of a 4 metre flume would have been very expensive
which is hydraulic-based, this was servo motor base one.
So, that's how we got that equipment.
And it was a cooperation. We gave - IIT gave
20 million rupees, for the associated
structure facilities and infrastructure
[Prof. Ravindran] they gave us 2 million German marks [Prof. Idichandy] German marks.
for the especially imported equipment.
That's how we could commission this
[Prof. Ravindran] special facility which is unique in this part of the world. [Prof. Idichandy] Yeah.
[Prof. Idichandy] In fact, Ocean Engineering Centre at that
[Prof. Idichandy] time was probably the only one of its kind in South-East Asia [Prof. Ravindran] Yes true.
[Prof. Idichandy] which had most of the facilities under one roof.
[Prof. Ravindran] That too, even Germany did not have, you know.
[Prof. Idichandy] Yes. [Prof. Ravindran] And see there were facilities
under commercial or private this thing like
[Prof. Ravindran] National Hydronus Laboratory in Trondheim. [Prof. Idichandy] Yeah.
They were all privately owned laboratories.
Under a university system,
I think this was the first of its kind of the unique
facilities, so many facilities under one group.
I think that showed the success of our initiative in IIT Madras.
And Germans supported us very much.
I think that was a brainchild of
Professor Indiresan to develop this and
he had special interest in oceans.
[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah. [Prof. Ravindran] Because before he came to IIT Madras, he was in
Centre for Applied Research in Electronics.
There he has worked a lot of things on underwater
[Prof. Ravindran] acoustics, electronics, etcetera. [Prof. Idichandy] I think...
[Prof. Ravindran] So, he had a special interest in Ocean Engineering Centre. [Prof. Idichandy] Yes.
Even after his retirement he came and stayed with us
[Prof. Ravindran] as a faculty of Ocean Engineering Centre. [Prof. Idichandy] Just like us.
I think a lot of great support for him we developed this
in disciplinary group. I - now I think we have
lot of Mechanical Engineers and there are other
people in Ocean Engineering Centre. [Prof. Idichandy] Yes, correct.
[Prof. Ravindran] I think that was a vision of Professor Indiresan we should review. [Prof. Idichandy] Yeah.
[Prof. Idichandy] And he is totally a multidisciplinary. [Prof. Ravindran] Yes, yes.
[Prof. Idichandy] Coming back again to the - I think, no wonder the
[Prof. Idichandy] President of Germany himself came and [Prof. Ravindran] Came, yes.
[Prof. Idichandy] inaugurated it. [Prof. Ravindran] Yes. That was one of our
best achievement because till that time Ocean Engineering Centre
[Prof. Ravindran] never had any recognition even within India. [Prof. Idichandy] Yeah.
Even though we had done 1 or 2 projects for ONGC and all that.
The whole facility, the uniqueness
of Ocean Engineering Centre was not known to anybody
outside our Ocean Engineering Centre.
So, we sent, we requested the German department of GTZ
[Prof. Ravindran] German agency for technical cooperation. [Prof. Idichandy] Technical cooperation, yes.
To support us and they were also thrilled that
you know, they could bring the President
to inaugurate such a very important
example of that cooperation to us.
Even though Ocean Engineering Centre came very late into the
German aid program, and we have become a - such a
big advertisement for them
or, this thing we've achieved a very major result within a short time.
That was the happiness of German agency also.
They will like to also support us
[Prof. Ravindran] and that was a very good thing yes. [Prof. Idichandy] In fact, it was
[Prof. Idichandy] also a big news for the German media. [Prof. Ravindran] Yes.
[Prof. Idichandy] For the President came. And one of the aspects
which they projected was such a facility is not available in Germany.
[Prof. Ravindran] Yes. [Prof. Idichandy] Whereas, the government has supported,
[Prof. Idichandy] want to be created in the... [Prof. Ravindran] You know and
that was the greatness of German,
[Prof. Ravindran] they agreed to that otherwise. [Prof. Idichandy] Correct, correct.
normally a donor agency
never allows such a major equipment,
money to be spent outside Germany.
[Prof. Ravindran] They will like to use it for their own industrial support. [Prof. Idichandy] Correct.
[Prof. Ravindran] But this was - I mean, when we convinced them
they accepted that. I think that was a very magnanimous
[Prof. Ravindran] way in which they accepted. [Prof. Idichandy] Ok.
[Prof. Idichandy] I think the caisson - again it was rebuilt [Prof. Ravindran] Yes.
[Prof. Idichandy] second time. [Prof. Ravindran] Yes. After the first failure
when we could not place it
at the right place at the right tide.
We... it got damaged also during the big monsoon time.
We designed a stronger caisson little bit
[Prof. Ravindran] more of more surplus [Prof. Idichandy] Ok.
strength - that is factor of safety was slightly more.
And this was slightly constructed in a slightly different
procedure that the - only the basic raft was
[Prof. Ravindran] built on the shore. [Prof. Idichandy] Shore.
On the beach. Then we pulled the raft into the sea
and then built the super structure
of nearly 20 metres in the floating water.
[Prof. Ravindran] The whole raft was floating. [Prof. Idichandy] Yeah.
And that was a big challenge because
when we put concrete on one side
because of the floating mode it used to tilt.
So, keeping the right angle and the
strength and uniformity was a
big challenge to Larsen Turbo.
But still it was a very good demonstration of the
new capability of building this huge caisson
which was ballasted with 3000 tonnes of sand
to make it sit on the floor.
It became a gravity structure.
No foundations were added
and all - it was just sitting on a
prepared rubble bed which was prepared by divers.
And we built the turbine and
the generator afterwards, after building a connecting bridge
where there was no crane. It was purely, it was another
learning experience how to build a
50 metres long bridge from the breakwater to the
[Prof. Ravindran] caisson sitting in 10 metres water depth. [Prof. Idichandy] Ok.
So, without big crane, without a Harley crane of 2 tonnes capacity,
so, slowly like they build this a road, railway bridges now,
[Prof. Ravindran] we built extension; extension we built over the oceans. [Prof. Idichandy] Yeah yeah yeah.
[Prof. Ravindran] Yes, that was - [Prof. Idichandy] I think the second caisson worked
[Prof. Idichandy] probably about 15 years later. [Prof. Ravindran] Yes,
that is one of the longest
[Prof. Ravindran] working wave enery plant in a whole world. [Prof. Idichandy] World.
The Belfast people started one,
but that fell into the sea within about 2-3 years.
So, that way ours was the longest surviving.
We commissioned in 1989 that was the last eve,
[Prof. Ravindran] New Year Eve success, December 31st. [Prof. Idichandy] Oh, yes.
It was ... a happiness. After initial
failure it was a very great joy for all of us
when we seated it properly and then
slowly we added the turbine and generator,
we pumped power to the grid. Then, after the initial
system was commissioned with induction generator
that is induction motor, very conventional rendered machine,
Kirloskar machine, run at a speed higher than the
synchronous speed to work as a generator,
cheapest possible generator. But that was
very stiff, you know, torque slip characteristics
3 percent when speed is the
power went from 0 to 100 percent.
The wave characteristics didn’t match that very much.
We looked out for a very simple and rugged machine.
So, slowly we involved the faculty from
[Prof. Ravindran] Electrical Engineering like this fellow, Professor Jagadish Kumar. [Prof. Idichandy] Yeah.
He started a variable speed induction motor,
then control of the speed in line with the
power availability from the waves. We did lot of
research on the electrical machine also
plus which slowly change the type of
turbine from adjustable guide blades,
we have put adjustable guide blades,
then we fixed guide blades.
Then, we said that during monsoon
the power availability is so high
we designed for average power.
The peak power was nearly
[Prof. Ravindran] 10 times that of the average power. [Prof. Idichandy] Oh.
So, we said, "Why we should lose that peak power?"
So, we changed the type of design of the turbine from
reaction turbine, low pressure reaction to
high pressure impulse turbine,
similar to the work done by Japanese,
we have cooperation with Germany.
Then, we involved the faculty from Aeronautics Department
[Prof. Ravindran] the Professor Santhakumar. [Prof. Idichandy] Santhakumar.
[Prof. Ravindran] I think you are right.
He came and he developed a test rig also, done for the
Bio Nuclear Lab. So, it was a really
a wholehearted cooperation from faculty, we developed
new machines. We developed and we attained a very high
overall efficiency compared to anybody else in the world.
Only: our sadness is that we could not
put that in the harbour that was being built in the
[Prof. Ravindran] Valiyathura harbour. [Prof. Idichandy] Ok.
Near Kollam, there was a harbour project coming
not Valiyathura, near Kollam.
But...they said we are having stones which are very
cheaply available in the nearby hills.
So, our caisson was little more expensive.
So, we had planned all this, that this
path will be part of the breakwater,
as a multipurpose breakwater -
that we could not achieve because they could get -
because there's still; hills are available in Kerala to break.
So, you know environmentally it was not nice, but they said
this is the cheapest way we have the money only for this.
So, even though it was the best wave energy device we could develop,
we could not put it in a commercial ...
[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah. [Prof. Ravindran] production mode.
[Prof. Idichandy] Speaking about the economics of, you know, wave energy,
I think it is definitely not
comparable with the conventional energy
[Prof. Idichandy] that is probably the case with the - any - any - you know, [Prof. Ravindran] Yes.
[Prof. Ravindran] Yes, that is true. [Prof. Idichandy] non-conventional energy.
Because the two main reason is that, that the
wave energy varies; wave energy potential
of the wave varies continuously from
very low, almost 0 during calm period,
during the non- in between months like December and all.
It was very lull, you can see that it, like a lake,
compared to the monsoon it is June, July in Kerala,
it is peak we have 6 metre waves and 7 metre waves.
So, it's quite high. The ratio,
peak to average power is more than 10 to 15.
We have to design the structure to withstand the peak waves
[Prof. Ravindran] which is there for few days in a year [Prof. Idichandy] Correct, correct.
[Prof. Ravindran] whereas, you have to design the equipment for the average
for which is - so, that is the most difficult thing
[Prof. Ravindran] in a wave energy device in an country like India. [Prof. Idichandy] Ok.
That’s why we designed our system
as a multipurpose device where this caisson
when you put number of them in a row,
[Prof. Ravindran] it becomes a breakwater. [Prof. Idichandy] Yeah.
Instead of a stone breakwater with tetrapods
which dissipates the energy of the waves
to create a calm water behind in a harbour,
we said this will absorb and convert into electricity.
[Prof. Idichandy] In ... the same purpose. [Prof. Ravindran] So, this way it will be a
multi-purpose we can offset the extra cost
from the cost of breakwater.
[Prof. Ravindran] That's what we wanted to put in the Neendakara port. [Prof. Idichandy] Ok.
And somehow they said, still it is not
cheaper for them compared to stone breakwater.
So, in spite our best effort to convince the
Fisheries Ministry which was building,
[Prof. Ravindran] it was a fishing harbour, [Prof. Idichandy] Ok.
we could not do that.
But we are very confident that it is the best
device anywhere in the world [inaudible] see with our generators.
And Dr. Jayashankar who came in later,
unfortunately I should pay our respect to him, he is no more,
he was working on so many simulations of optimizing into
various components, electrical, mechanical, turbine,
hydrodynamics, etcetera, he was working much longer period
as a faculty he came from NIOT to IIT faculty.
And then, he has come with a very solid modelling proof
that the government system could be cheaper.
[Prof. Idichandy] Right. [Prof. Ravindran] any time.
So, he was negotiating with some people abroad for the project
and somebody was even willing to take his advice for certain funding.
They asked him: not to public?
He said, no, this technology is available,
is to be used by everybody
who is interested in renewal energy.
[Prof. Ravindran] So, he was not willing to sell this or restrict this technology [Prof. Idichandy] Right.
[Prof. Ravindran] to a particular agency. So, he didn’t do that.
He didn’t give the technology to them
and unfortunately, he passed away because of certain illness
[Prof. Ravindran] due to cancer. [Prof. Idichandy] Yeah.
So, I think that initiative has come down to this.
So, we are waiting still for a oil price to increase or
this place to come down.
[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah. I think later on the
power produce sort of so been used for desalination work.
[Prof. Ravindran] Yes, in order to demonstrate the multipurpose capability,
the Vizhinjam harbour has lot of fishermen who use lot of ice.
And also they need drinking water,
because during the previous monsoon, the
daily [inaudible], they have severe drought in these fishing harbours.
So, we had put desalination plant run by purely wave energy.
And demonstrated that we could give them everyday
at least 5000 litres of water from this small plant
[Prof. Idichandy] Ok. [Prof. Ravindran] purely run by wave energy and it was running for quite some time.
Well, I guess the - the - the total expenditure on this
like security because that is on the harbour.
Then, maintenance and because this is in the
corrosive one, environment, so that was bit high,
even though it could have been done.
So, we wanted the Kerala Government to take over
somehow they didn’t want to take over
because of the expense, they said we don't have budget.
So, after we were very confident that we have enough technology,
demonstration capability, demonstration done,
and then any day we can design a
commercial system, we said: ok, we will stop
and then we said we will dismantle the system.
So, after nearly 25 years, we have dismantled the system.
[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah. See, it's - it’s unfortunate, you know
you've put in so much of effort because lot of technology,
lot of, you know, knowledge has been generated from it,
but ultimately you know it could not be
used on a - on a commercial scale.
[Prof. Ravindran] Yeah. [Prof. Idichandy] Even if it is little expensive.
[Prof. Ravindran] Yeah, that is a tragedy in India I will say, this is my personal opinion.
You see, tidal power plant, the first ever plant was commissioned in
France, Rance, in 1966. 50 years it is working, still working.
Initially, it was known it is expensively - barrier,
the civil engineering construction cost of the barrier is expensive,
but now, having seen how much energy it has produced.
[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah, it's - [Prof. Ravindran] and now people want to build,
but India which has got a tremendous potential in Gulf of Cambay,
Gulf of Kutch, and feasibility
studies have been done for the last 20 years repeatedly.
Government have never took a decision
[Prof. Ravindran] to go for a tidal power plant [Prof. Idichandy] Tidal power.
which would have helped the Saurashtra region,
Marashtra region very much.
They were very clear designs done for a
[Prof. Ravindran] 800 megawatt plant in Gulf of Kutch. [Prof. Idichandy] Oh.
[Prof. Ravindran] 25 years ago. [Prof. Idichandy] Oh my god.
In the Ministry of Water Resources
there was a dedicated Chief Engineer, one Mr. H. R. Sharma
who got frustrated, he went to Mauritius,
really, after having done so much of work.
Similarly, we did a feasibility study after NIOT was started, oceans engineering centre.
We, ourselves, Professor Raju
was the coordinator, we did a feasibility [study] for Sundarbans.
We said we'll put a small plant, entire technology will be ours.
3 megawatt plant at the cost of about 3 crores or 4 crores
with a standby diesel power plant for the hospitals to be started.
Government, they worked on it for years, they didn’t take a decision.
So, somehow I feel that there is a reluctance
to go for a renewable energy plant in our country,
always quoting that it is expensive, expensive;
expensive from what sense? In a place like Sundarbans
[Prof. Ravindran] when there is no other power available. [Prof. Idichandy] Correct.
Like ... the first the Chairman, Atomic Power Commission
said, you know, no energy is costly than the position of no-energy,
[Prof. Ravindran] that our people have never understood. [Prof. Idichandy] Ok.
And we have been also highlighting the water plant
which was later - there also similar thing happened.
They were always asking where is the -
first plant they want to be commercially viable.
[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah. [Prof. Ravindran] See, same yardstick is not used for all ministry.
For example, ISRO they have put so many rockets
which was not commercially viable
or it was not technologically successful.
[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah. [Prof. Ravindran] Slowly, they have taken 30-40 years to
[Prof. Ravindran] come to a commercially viable stage. [Prof. Idichandy] Yeah.
That lead time was not coming to ocean technology or ocean energy,
that is my personal disappointment from the - our ministries.
[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah. And it’s - it's very strange you know
sometimes when it comes to political will,
it lacks because of I don't know
whether they have no confidence,
always in a 'I can blame, that it is not commercially viable,
so therefore, we are not going to - not going to support.'
[Prof. Idichandy] I think it is [Prof. Ravindran] Yes.
[Prof. Idichandy] very unfortunate. [Prof. Ravindran] We always trust first we have to prove
[Prof. Ravindran] technical viability first. [Prof. Idichandy] Yeah.
It takes few years of lead time -
till that is technically feasible, don’t ask about commercial viability.
[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah, exactly. [Prof. Ravindran] Because by that time maybe the commercial, like deep sea mining.
Even yesterday’s paper there was a report on deep sea mining.
We have been working on 20 years, and I was working on;
slowly we see that in this 20 years time it has became a viable.
[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah. [Prof. Ravindran] The cost of the cobalt, nickel, and this thing has gone up,
but if we start with technology we'll not be there, we'll be
[Prof. Ravindran] demonstrating next year. [Prof. Idichandy] That's correct.
Because if start with technology today
would have been another 20 years to mine this.
See, this is what our government is not accepting or understanding.
Always there is a lead to prove the technology
till it is proven commercially viable.
[Prof. Idichandy] Ok. Let us hope that there will be some change in the mindset of [Prof. Ravindran] Yes.
[Prof. Idichandy] the government. [Prof. Ravindran] Yes.
[Prof. Idichandy] Ok. Let us probably start with NIOT, next phase. [Prof. Ravindran] Yes.
I think the talk for starting a National Institute of Technology
or Ocean Technology for quite some time.
[Prof. Ravindran] Yes. [Prof. Idichandy] Because National Institute of Oceanography is there
[Prof. Ravindran] '66 onwards. [Prof. Idichandy] Yeah.
It was started long back, but then there is nothing on technology.
Every time there is, something is talked about, the - the - the -
I mean, the - the government or the department has to come to IIT
and probably the navy to some extent.
So, then this National Institute of Ocean Technology was thought of.
Probably, again Indiresan was behind it
and East Coast was taken was one of the places where it is
likely to come up. And then considering
all aspects especially the proximity of
IIT Ocean Engineering Department,
it has been decided to establish the centre
in - in Chennai to start with an IIT itself.
[Prof. Idichandy] That's a very wise decision, of course. [Prof. Ravindran] Yes.
[Prof. Idichandy] Both NIOT as well as IIT got benefitted
[Prof. Ravindran] Yes. [Prof. Idichandy] because of it.
[Prof. Idichandy] I think you were in the thick of -
[Prof. Ravindran] Yes. [Prof. Idichandy] you know, the entire establishment of the institute.
I think you should elaborate a little on that.
Yeah. Ever since the Ministry of Ocean Development was was started in 1982,
there was talk about ocean ... Dr. Qasim,
who felt the need for this.
Till that time, you know, from '66 when
people started talking about oceanography,
ocean technology need was not appreciated
till the offshore platform started coming.
[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah. [Prof. Ravindran] The entire technology for offshore oil
exploration was higher technology.
There was nothing indigenously available.
For every small thing, we have to pay through our nose
and ONGC slowly started developing
its own core strength from its [inaudible] team engineers.
And another thing is that the people, who knew oceans, the naval people,
they never understood the deepwater technology.
There was no need for them to understand deepwater technology.
For them the submarine operation depth was
[Prof. Ravindran] less than 300 metres. [Prof. Idichandy] That's correct.
So, they were happy.
So, the authorities or the advisors for the government authorities
never felt the importance of developing a capability
in deep sea technologies or offshore engineering proper.
[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah. [Prof. Ravindran] Till they realize, ok, offshore oil is one
but there are so many other thing
which are more - also equally important in offshore engineering
other than offshore oil platforms.
I think that came known to them
only after Ocean Engineering Centre was started.
[Prof. Idichandy] Yes. [Prof. Ravindran] When even before the [inaudible] could be commissioned,
I think you are the first to do demonstrate the launching capability of
offshore platform indigenously from our own platform.
So, people started understanding here;
capability is being built in Ocean Engineering Centre
and there is a need to go to
other unknown areas of deepwater technology.
So, that way, again, Professor Indiresan’s
idea was there. He had a very close
personal equation with Dr. Qasim
[Prof. Ravindran] because I think Indiresan daughter went to Antarctica. [Prof. Idichandy] Yeah.
And at day - at that time when Dr. Qasim proposed
in the first instance I think the end of 6th 5-year plan or something,
they'd prepared a totally green field, the institute budget with multiple,
I think about 80 or 100 crores.
Government had said no, no,
we don’t have money to start a green field institution.
So, they just closed it.
Then, it was lying low, then Professor Rama Rao came,
N. P. Rama Rao who was the
Secretary of Science and Technology, who was also in charge of
Ocean Development, Department, Ocean Development.
So, our Professor Raju and Professor Swamy
who was the then Director
when they went for discussion sometime with
DST said, we should take over.
I think Professor Raju was the main trust
that we should have a Institute of Ocean Technology
and we should do that.
And they say we don’t have much money.
So, then the Director offered that,
we offer the administrative support;
it could be started within the IIT campus,
they can use all the facilities of IIT in the R and D because
it is the interdisciplinary technology development institution.
They can use all our existing facilities.
So, we don’t have to create immediately a
huge infrastructure and other administrative support
we can give; security administration and other things.
So, you give us minimum money, we will start.
Then they said, where is the director?
we said: we also give one of our faculty
with that only it came in to be
[inaudible] was promoted - submitted by Dr. Rama Rao.
And for the first year, the budget was hardly 40 lakhs.
IIT accepted that, ok, give us 40 lakhs
maybe give us something more for the other 2 years the - initially
remaining parts of that 5-year plan
I think 7.5-year plan was hardly 2 crores
or so, for the entire 2 and half years or so.
IIT accepted that. They said we will provide our facilities to start.
So, give us project to individual departments
and then we will start working.
That’s how the NIOT came into being,
[Prof. Ravindran] otherwise NIOT would not have been started at all. [Prof. Idichandy] Started.
So, that real - this thing - thanks to go to IIT Madras,
the then Directo,r and Professor Raju.
And then, it so happened that they recommended my name
that we we will depute; even without my - they didn’t discuss
with me the idea. So, and at that time only the...
I just completed my term of Head of the Department.
And I was had more time. He said: ok, we will give Ravindran.
Even though it was a surprise to me,
it was not discussed with me,
I accepted because I just committed.
So, I was thankful for the confidence they had in me.
So, I said: it is a big challenge starting on Ocean Technology.
So, we have to right from
beginning, we need to look for land onwards, you know,
right from scratch we have to start
that was a big challenge, we accepted that,
and with all the cooperation from the Ocean Engineering Centre
and this thing, we started. And then within two years
the secretary of Ocean Development changed,
we got Dr. Muthunayagam who was the
senior person from ISRO. He came into the Oceans
and he is a man of the hardware type
because they are used to having projects
[Prof. Ravindran] with that time-bound delivery. [Prof. Idichandy] Yeah.
With no restraint on expenses, time frame,
they are all always project - time-based project.
So, when he took over in '95,
[Prof. Ravindran] we started in '93, November, [Prof. Idichandy] Yeah.
He said, he told me: Ravindran, why not we expand?
As long as we are restricted to this one
floor in ICSR building which built with that 40 lakhs first year,
he said you will still remain only as a pure R and D.
You cannot explain your activity.
There are so many different activities
to be taken up and this place is not sufficient.
So, we should look for a place at least 50 acres,
look for a place. So, we took a policy decision, ok.
Look for a place and build it.
As he said: no, we should build it within 2 years,
we don't have even a land you know at that time,
we didn’t have the money, but we took this challenge.
And then we asked the Government of Tamil Nadu
to give us some land. They wanted to give us some
land very far away or give us only
few grounds you know less than a acre for the institute.
We said no, give us the land which nobody else wants.
So, we got this garbage dump area
in Pallikaranai which was a marshy land with 7 feet of water.
We said: ok, give us, we will develop it.
So, that time the Commissioner of Land Administration
one Mr. Narayan IAS, very nice gentleman,
who later became Chief Secretary.
Within a very short time, he allotted 50 acres of land within
Madras city which was a very big gesture on the
part of the Tamil Nadu government.
And now, we could build this campus in
18 months as required by our secretary.
And that was the first time we committed
in writing to Planning Commission:
there will be no cost escalation
and time escalation and we did that.
So, there was a tremendous appreciation from
everybody concerning the Planning Commission
everybody, and that was one of the
nicest campus ... we have developed
from a garbage dump area with so much of facilities.
Even before the official commissioning we started work there like deep sea
mining technology, all works were started,
many projects were started in the ocean
apart from OTEC: data buoy programme, deep sea mining technology,
marine instrumentation, you know, to the activities there.
Then, later we added the data buoy programme
and they we built ships for ourself.
Go into the sea, because
without going into the sea, what do they learn?
So, we said we should survey and take sample from deep sea,
see, we built two small ships, later we built two big ships
which became really the best ships
[Prof. Ravindran] in our part of the country as a technology demonstration vessel. [Prof. Idichandy] Ok.
Which goes almost our - to southern oceans.
[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah. [Prof. Ravindran] To about 60 degrees South
and all that, it has gone.
So, such capability we have developed
[Prof. Ravindran] within a short time. [Prof. Idichandy] Yeah.
Yes. That is how the ocean technology...
and I took retirement in 2004.
It is 10 years, we did all these
the budget increase from 40 lakhs per year
first year - to more than 100 crores per year
when I retired and we had about 300 people
working for the institute. Nice campus, nice campus,
beautiful, with excellent facilities
technology-wise, capability-wise during the time.
[Prof. Idichandy] Ok. NIOT, to tell something about the
the these technology demonstrators
[Prof. Idichandy] done by the NIOT. [Prof. Ravindran] Yes.
Because they only even starting with water
[Prof. Ravindran] desalination. [Prof. Idichandy] Yes.
The first project which we came into
actual service to the humanity
in - in - in India is the data buoys programme
in which we have deployed data buoys floating around
in the Arabian Sea and the Bay of Bengal,
number of them, 12 of them.
They have all the ocean parameters and the
air parameters above the ocean.
One of the important requirements for
predicting our rainfall, cyclones, and storms was that the
[Prof. Ravindran] air-sea interaction, the weather or the [Prof. Idichandy] Yes.
air parameters just above the sea.
We didn’t have any offshore stations earlier.
So, we have to depend only from islands
like Andaman or Lakshadweep, in between we didn’t have
any measurement station. So, IMD was handicapped,
MET department was handicapped.
So, this data buoys give very very well information on the
energy coming from the oceans which are being
transferred to the air or the atmosphere
and change into rain or hurricanes or monsoon.
So, that became a very important contribution,
within I think '97, we commissioned that.
Our whole institute was started in '93,
that was one of the first solid contribution
to our society to understand the oceans - understand -
safeguard the coastal population from
hazards like hurricanes and storms.
That was the first one.
Then we started the Ocean Thermal Energy
conversion against the opposition
by Ministry of Non-Conventional Energy Resources
because that you are supposed to do, it
is not economical, they were opposing, opposing, opposing.
Actually, our Ministry Dr. Muthunayagam fought and took up this project.
With so much of opposition from many people
I - I don't want to name the people or the organization
who were opposing, when whole thing -
it was again a 2-year project, you know that we draw water
from 1000 metre water depth through a
[Prof. Ravindran] vertical pipeline hanging from the barge. [Prof. Idichandy] Yes.
Where all the equipment, power plant equipments are there,
all the plants, all the equipments about the barge, specially built
barge Sagar Shakti, which was built in Goa shipyard
within 18 months was tested.
Only the coded well could not be tested because
we have to go to the ocean to ... testing it.
It is tragedy that our country doesn't have
any offshore crane, even today.
We have to handle 200 tonnes of the anchor for the cold water pipe.
So, because like ONGC and all they hire this
crane from offshore for that season between December to April.
Then they go back to Dubai or Singapore.
So, when I went to Singapore and asked
for these people to come and place it,
yes, we erect with warranty, but the Defence Department
totally refused to give security clearance for this.
And he said: I want advance payment of
1 million dollars for the entire contract
because the payment delays are unacceptable to me.
I have seen from other experience. So, I want it.
These two conditions were
[Prof. Ravindran] refused by the Ministry. [Prof. Idichandy] Ministry.
They said use some other equipment which is available.
We have to hire a A frame without a - even a
crane possibility using a winch which failed,
which was supposed to have been tested by -
supposed to have been tested by Lloyd's.
So, we lost the cold water pipe.
So, everybody was objecting to the project said, we know
this is what will happen. It was a very very
unsympathetic remark by the officials,
and the other ministries, we felt very sad.
And out of, I don't know whether I should say that
total project about 30 crores, this damage was only 5 crores. We could have
[Prof. Idichandy] Ok. [Prof. Ravindran] renewed because the entire platform,
everything was tested and ready.
They said we will not give any more money.
So, we have to close the project.
That was one of the saddest part of my career in NIOT
[Prof. Ravindran] but we didn’t stop there, [Prof. Idichandy] Yes.
[Prof. Ravindran] Yes. [Prof. Idichandy] You know, it’s very sad, you know.
[Prof. Ravindran] Yes. [Prof. Idichandy] Some - I do not know whether it is bureaucrats or technocrats,
it take decisions without looking every aspect and then...
So, when other ministries were given
[Prof. Ravindran] so much time and money to prove the capability. [Prof. Idichandy] Yes.
They expect our first plan to be commercially successful,
commercially, say 1 megawatt
which have been the first commercial plan in the whole world
[Prof. Ravindran] they didn’t give us a chance to prove. [Prof. Idichandy] Ok.
Except one common fail, as it wind up the project.
The then Finance Minister wrote: good money for a bad project,
it was very very sickening to read.
[Prof. Idichandy] From the Finance Minister.
[Prof. Ravindran] What does he understand?
[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah, that's what. [Prof. Ravindran] Very unsympathetic remark
and this thing and based on that we were not given any money.
So, the entire 30 crores was left unutilized, scrapped.
[Prof. Idichandy] So, in fact, the real loss is only about 5 crores. [Prof. Ravindran] Yes.
Not - not even you know.
If we were allowed that crane to have been hired,
the right equipment to be hired at the right time,
we could have done that for same.
[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah. [Prof. Ravindran] We were not allowed.
So, we were asked to fight with our folded hands.
You have to work with whatever is available. And we failed.
[Prof. Idichandy] Okay. [Prof. Ravindran] So, but we didn’t
keep quiet. We...took up the other projects of
deep sea mining to mine polymetallic nodules
which are lying on the surface of the seabed at 5000 metre depth.
[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah. [Prof. Ravindran] And they are 2 kilo - 1000 kilometres away
from the Kanyakumari - South - Central Indian Ocean Basin.
So, we said we'd programme in steps.
First, you know, we develop a crawler,
and because we have never worked
more than 300; nobody has touched bottom and work.
So, as we should demonstrate capability
to work about 150-200 metres,
develop a crawler machine which will move on the seabed,
do some work and pump that
[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah, slurry, whatever it is. [Prof. Ravindran] soil up.
So, our technology was that we would pick up the nodules
crush it and send it through a hose, flexible risers.
So, we wanted to prove in stages. So, that was proven first.
We developed a crawler, first in - in this part of the world,
demonstrated off Tuticorin. Then re-demonstrated 500,
first 150 metres then 500 metres on West Coast
then we deployed because the nodules
are available only in 5000 metres.
[Prof. Idichandy] Ok. [Prof. Ravindran] So, to prove that availability, we
made artificial nodules and picked up these nodules.
Capability of picking up these nodules,
crushing, pumping, we demonstrated.
So, all those sub stages gone. So, now, we have to design - the NIOT -
designing the final version for 6000 metres
which is capable of pumping something like
[Prof. Ravindran] 8 kg of nodules [8 tonnes*] per hour [Prof. Idichandy] Ok.
with the slurry of about 10 percent by volume and which is
[Prof. Ravindran] pumping through a host 6000-metres long, [Prof. Idichandy] Yeah.
getting power supply also through a cable 6000-metres long.
So, how to install it, how to recover it, it is a big technology.
[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah. [Prof. Ravindran] So, slowly our engine start working. And we are hopeful that
the first the crawler we demonstrated in 2018,
and the full integrated test will be in 2020, that is our project.
So, we start work something like 10 years ago.
15 years ago, preliminary work was started, but
this we are done, it's a very tough technology because
[Prof. Ravindran] components are all not available [Prof. Idichandy] Yeah.
internationally, so, we have to develop most of the thing ourselves.
To prove the success of these things in deep sea water
because environment is very difficult
[Prof. Ravindran] 600-times atmospheric pressure, you know. [Prof. Idichandy] Yeah.
[Prof. Ravindran] 1000 times denser than the air. [Prof. Idichandy] Yes.
So, the forces are high, depths are unreachable.
So, the - no components is proven in
6000 metres, so far industrially.
So, we buy equipments and
[Prof. Ravindran] provide special casings [Prof. Idichandy] Casing.
to withstand and test about 900 bar.
50 percent more pressure.
So, that facility has been created, infrastructure.
So, these are the new type of the - such a facility doesn’t
[Prof. Ravindran] exist anywhere in this part of the world. [Prof. Idichandy] Exist.
[Prof. Ravindran] Even defence, you know, they have only 600 metres depth testing. [Prof. Idichandy] Yes.
Then fuel has, you know, like that.
So, building and creating facility itself is
a technology by itself.
Then, to go and survey this,
we have developed a remotely-operated vehicle.
Now, people know Titanic and people have gone in a -
people do not know: in India we have developed a
much better version to go to deeper waters.
We have published but now,
people are not really appreciating.
[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah. [Prof. Ravindran] See, your capability and we have done
underwater, ROV to work in Antarctica,
we went under the ice and bored at the bottom.
So, these capabilities we have developed, very unique facilities
which was never existing in our country.
So, we are - NIOT is very proud of this
capability and now after the tsunami...
[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah, 2004. [Prof. Ravindran] It was said that
yes, 2004, there was a strong need felt,
understandably, that we should have a warning system
even though it was very difficult to
have a very long advanced system.
Even 2 hours warning will be good enough.
So, we have put tsunami warning system
that is the special sensors, you are aware,
pressure sensors which sense the
surface variations of that. Once we recognize that,
nature immediately gives a warning.
[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah. [Prof. Ravindran] Through our data buoy system
acoustically from the bottom 4000 metres to the surface buoy
[Prof. Ravindran] from there through satellite communication to our [Prof. Idichandy] Satellite.
standard data buoy system, we are able to. So, we have made
4 such system and installed on the Arabian Sea
because that is the direction in which the most of our tsunami
[Prof. Ravindran] waves are coming periodically. [Prof. Idichandy] Tsunami is likely to have.
So, apart from US, we are
the only country manufacturing these devices.
I think you have tested some of them also the
[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah. [Prof. Ravindran] pressure sensors.
So, I had - NIOT has proven capability to prove this
special equipment in deeper waters
[Prof. Ravindran] which was never there in our country. [Prof. Idichandy] Yeah.
We - they were all imported.
So, we are slowly indigenizing this capability.
[Prof. Idichandy] In fact, you know, it's a totally unexplored area
with not much information, not much technology,
but I think anybody has, can be proud that
especially you can be so proud that
you could achieve, you know;
most of these things in a very very short time.
It is not that - and with very limited resources.
[Prof. Ravindran] Yeah. That too, that's right. Yes. [Prof. Idichandy] I think that is the - you know.
That is true; also in addition to this
in deep sea technologies, we are also we are providing
special benefits like you know,
we also have biotechnology-related activities.
For fishermen we gave technology of lobster
[Prof. Idichandy] Yes. [Prof. Ravindran] being grown in cages in 2 metre water depth.
[Prof. Idichandy] Yes. [Prof. Ravindran] So, they don't have to go into deeper waters and
be demonstrated in - we gave technology to
fisherman in near Thoothukudi, Tharuvaikulam, Erwadi, and all that.
We give them baskets which will survive the waves and currents.
So, it is in 2 metre; people can walk or they can
go and pick up this. It is like a bank you know where
these lobsters are there. Whenever you need money,
go and be - sells per kilo 800 rupees, 1000 rupees
those days, before 10 years.
So, people have - can save diesel, but only thing is
they come in - grow easily in shallow - clean waters.
[Prof. Idichandy] Yes. [Prof. Ravindran] So, unless people maintain clean
beaches we cannot grow lobsters or mud crabs.
[Prof. Idichandy] Ok. [Prof. Ravindran] So, this technology also we have developed.
Now, we are working on medicine
from the sea that is biodiesel also.
These are many activities. Now, new technology, now,
we have ventured into is that
the aquaculture farm land is polluting the land you know,
[Prof. Ravindran] they are losing the coastal aquifers. [Prof. Idichandy] Yeah, yeah.
So, now, like Norway has done,
we go into the deeper sea, put huge cages.
[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah. [Prof. Ravindran] 10 metres, 20 metre diameter cages and
50 metres high and grow fishes there,
big fishes which go up to 30 kg, 50 kg.
[Prof. Ravindran] We have already done this in Mandapam and Andaman area. [Prof. Idichandy] I see, Ok.
And we have demonstrated about 12 kgs.
So, now, this is going to be a major blue water economy
for our country, that, you know, we like to develop
this offshore fish farming technology which was never existent.
[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah. [Prof. Idichandy] So, that for that you know we need lot of
mechanical design like, you know, offshore designs
[Prof. Ravindran] of these cages which would survive [Prof. Idichandy] Survive.
in our monsoon weather conditions.
So, moorings, feeding devices,
so, really, even though its a fishes related,
[Prof. Ravindran] it is a interdisciplinary technology. [Prof. Idichandy] Yeah.
So, that actually also has come up and
[Prof. Ravindran] we have put a office in Andamans [Prof. Idichandy] Yeah.
to study the island environment and give them support,
survey into lot of other engineering work which, of course,
Ocean Engineering Centre also is doing - so, like that -
but most of the projects are
engineering-oriented, not stop with R and D. Provide a -
[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah. [Prof. Ravindran] solution to a problem in which we can harvest the
resources from the sea: either it is energy or food
or save the people from natural hazards.
[Prof. Ravindran] Hazards. [Prof. Idichandy] Like hurricanes, tsunami.
And then keep a complete warning system for monsoon protections.
[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah. [Prof. Ravindran] So, these are all the services being
[Prof. Ravindran] offered. [Prof. Idichandy] No, there is something very unique about
NIOT that... it is not just the R and D alone but
[Prof. Ravindran] Yes. [Prof. Idichandy] you always demonstrated in the industry.
[Prof. Ravindran] Yes, that is the thing, no? [Prof. Idichandy] Yeah.
[Prof. Ravindran] Unlike NIO, you know, people have studying for research's sake. [Prof. Idichandy] Yeah.
They study about the oceans, understand oceans,
but we do engineering projects for the benefit of the people.
So, that is the difference.
So, we need lot more people but we need support.
[Prof. Idichandy] In fact, there is something which [Prof. Ravindran] That support is not yet coming.
[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah that. [Prof. Ravindran] Large numbers.
[Prof. Idichandy] Ocean, if the - if the - it is something which is totally neglected.
[Prof. Ravindran] Yes. [Prof. Idichandy] In fact, we don't even have sufficient data.
[Prof. Ravindran] Yes. [Prof. Idichandy] Only after, you know,
[Prof. Ravindran] Yes, yes, yes. [Prof. Idichandy] the data buoy is
[Prof. Ravindran] Yes, yes. [Prof. Idichandy] collecting data only we have something like
you know, some data is available at this - so, right from that...
[Prof. Ravindran] Yes, yes. Even fisheries not fully exploited. [Prof. Idichandy] Yeah.
There is a joke saying that you know: one -
Indian waters' fish die of old age because they are never caught.
Yes, because we don’t have deep sea fishing trawlers.
[Prof. Ravindran] We don’t have deep sea fishing harbours. [Prof. Idichandy] Yes.
That - that is a policy lacking, lacuna there.
[Prof. Idichandy] Yes. [Prof. Ravindran] for deep sea fishing.
[Prof. Idichandy] It's a - it's a big tragedy, I mean.
[Prof. Idichandy] And - [Prof. Ravindran] Recently there was a conference of one forum
called Forum for Integrated National Security
for the country organised by- supported by
Ministry of HR Affairs and Norway,
and there we are talking about ocean security.
See, we are working now all over the place
[Prof. Ravindran] our ship goes all over the place. [Prof. Idichandy] Yes.
Now, Chinese are watching;
wherever we go Chinese are behind us.
We have to provide security.
[Prof. Ravindran] How are these offshore activities safe [Prof. Idichandy] Yeah.
from these people? People have totally
[inaudible] the threat coming from deep sea.
See, when you go on deep sea mining,
[Prof. Ravindran] you're 2000 kilometre away from coast. [Prof. Idichandy] Coast, yes.
Any health emergency, we don’t have support.
Any threat, security threat, we don’t, so.
So, in some of the ships, we carry gunmen,
hired from abroad, paying through our nose.
So, that's aspect also is not been taken seriously,
so far by Government of India. Now only they are talking about it.
So, we have 7000 kilometres of coast, how are we protecting them?
[Prof. Idichandy] And the huge area. [Prof. Ravindran] Like the 26-11 disaster
[Prof. Ravindran] can take place anytime. [Prof. Idichandy] Yes, correct.
How are we protecting?
So, we should understand oceans,
how do we protect our coast?
Not only look for resources,
how do you protect this science and technology activities?
[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah. [Prof. Ravindran] Resource harvesting activities.
[Prof. Idichandy] Great wealth - wealth is, you know,
[Prof. Idichandy] Lying below. [Prof. Ravindran] Lying below, yeah.
First, we don’t know we don’t know how to protect them.
[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah, that's correct. [Prof. Ravindran] Others are harvesting.
[Prof. Idichandy]I think it should be a complete policy change is required...
[Prof. Ravindran] Yes, the ocean technology needs much more investment
[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah. [Prof. Ravindran] and in terms of finance and manpower.
[Prof. Ravindran] I think - till the Ocean Engineering Centre was, nobody knew what was oceans.
[Prof. Idichandy] Correct, yeah. [Prof. Ravindran] Nobody knew what was offshore structure even.
[Prof. Idichandy] Yes. [Prof. Ravindran] So, Ocean Centre was the beginning
but a small group - we are doing within the
institutions and doing consultancies but
this set of activity, 2000 kilometres away: we need institutions,
we need infrastructure like big ships, standby ships, helicopters.
See, we go to Antarctica, we take 2 helicopters with us.
But when you go to CIOB which is also far away
it is 20 days journey, we don't take helicopters.
We take all of the risk.
So, we need investment, we need more ships,
more supporting systems, more manpower.
Another more important is: the policy making.
[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah. [Prof. Ravindran] Officials.
[Prof. Idichandy] That is - [Prof. Ravindran] They don’t understand oceans.
[Prof. Idichandy] Yes. [Prof. Ravindran] More important, we do not teach anything to our school boys.
[Prof. Idichandy] Exactly. [Prof. Ravindran] In one of the colleges, we asked: how are the
waves made - we are creating awareness about ocean,
we just asked, how do you get waves?
Ships are moving, so we get waves.
This is the knowledge of people about waves.
Nobody knows, even the teacher,
school teachers do not know about oceans.
[Prof. Idichandy] So, it's a - [Prof. Ravindran] So, we have to have a awareness
[Prof. Ravindran] even at the school level [Prof. Idichandy] School level.
about the oceans, then only
[Prof. Ravindran] our officials will know what oceans are. [Prof. Idichandy] Yeah.
So, that's why I said
way forward is to educate our policy-making bodies:
[Prof. Ravindran] officials and ministers. [Prof. Idichandy] Yeah, I think it should start in the school itself because
now there is absolutely nothing.
You know, when a student, 12th standard, when he passes, you know,
I do not think he knows anything about ocean.
I was telling you, this engineering college student said
waves are made by ships, so, like...
[Prof. Idichandy] Ok. I think, I know you can go for hours
[Prof. Ravindran] Yeah. [Prof. Idichandy] talking about NIOT and its programme.
Why did you suddenly decide to say...
[Prof. Ravindran] Yeah. [Prof. Idichandy] That is a.
I was 60, even though there was a request both
by Dir - you know, Professor Ananth came and
requested me to come back as a Professor Emeritus,
you made a request formally, Government of India
also said that. I said the last 12 years of
NIOT, it was a tremendous work, even my wife
was complaining that I don't have time even to talk to her.
[Prof. Idichandy] Ok. [Prof. Ravindran] Really, I used to travel so much,
day night spending the time.
So, she said, let us do something other than technology.
[Prof. Ravindran] So, no more coming to a permanent institution. [Prof. Idichandy] Ok.
So, at that time, we were starting a
parallel activity of social service to a
[Prof. Ravindran] tribal community in Dharmapuri district in the reserve forest. [Prof. Idichandy] Ok.
So, with our doctor friends, we were trying to establish a hospital.
They needed manpower, not only money,
but they needed people to work with them.
Even though they were willing to stay,
but they need lot of support to collect money,
get some approvals, construct the hospital,
bring equipments and bring people administratively.
So, we said we'll go and help them.
And I was also working with Gandhigram,
[Prof. Ravindran] designing small small machines for them [Prof. Idichandy] Yeah.
[Prof. Ravindran] for minimizing the manual effort of rural ladies
who are working in some of our
[Prof. Idichandy] Ok. [Prof. Ravindran] spinning, weaving, and ayurvedic medicine preparations,
soap-making, etcetera. So, I thought I would spend more time,
something different and then spend more time with
the family because I - which I never was able to spend
right from the day 1 - heavy work you know,
in the Turbomachines Laboratory, see
[Prof. Ravindran] I was in charge of major fabrication erection. [Prof. Idichandy] Yes.
And my PhD also was very [inaudible] and then
Ocean Engineering Centre was also a tough [inaudible]
erection, lot of facilities, when we came, in NIOT,
totally different work. So, I started to spend more time.
Went home, and then spend time with these people
where you see immediate benefit, where ocean technology
has got lot - time-relevant for
success. Lead time is there;
[Prof. Ravindran] Yeah. [Prof. Idichandy] Even after 2 years we don't see this.
[Prof. Idichandy] Correct. [Prof. Ravindran] Somebody whereas, here instantly within few weeks,
few months, teaching the small kids who are school drop-outs
doing something with their own hands:
repairing a motor, repairing a pipeline, water pipeline, welding,
[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah. [Prof. Ravindran] constructing, we have trained small kids to build -
[Prof. Idichandy] Masonry work. [Prof. Ravindran] masonry work with compressed bricks without any cement.
[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah. [Prof. Ravindran] You should see the hospital
and the guesthouse building which they have built.
The kids whom we have seen with 15-16
we have taught them and - and they have built -
they have become masons.
So, that really, it's a real
[Prof. Ravindran] happiness which we - [Prof. Idichandy] That is a different type of satisfaction you know.
[Prof. Ravindran] Yes, [inaudible]. [Prof. Idichandy] Nothing like -
And then we gave our small machine to decorticate groundnut,
at sometimes they used to, they used to sell cheaply
[Prof. Ravindran] because they cannot process them. [Prof. Idichandy] Yes, yes.
So, post-harvesting using machine. So, when we gave the one
we can see the happiness in the whole village
that now they are able to use
that groundnut because they are able to decorticate,
they can make chutney, they can make sweets,
they can go and get it crushed, and make oil,
they don't have to sell as a raw material
to somebody who sells the -
brought it back to them at a 3 times cost.
That you know is something - capability building.
Now, the people whom - fellow who did not know
how to speak English or anything is the electrician for the EV.
For the entire village.
We have taught them how to rewind motors, how to repair pumps,
how to lay pipeline, now all hospital: our wiring,
everything is done by these kids whom we have trained.
And in fact, the skill development, you know, it's a
mission of the Central Government; it should happen like this,
I mean, at the - at the grassroot level,
you go there and stay with them and then teach them.
So that, you know, they are independent and they
don't have to depend on anybody else.
So, I would like to tell you something very - my bad experience
with so-called skill development of tribals.
I applied for the project with Ministry of Science,
they have special money and lot of money.
We said: this is what we want to do,
this school dropout kids, we want to train and
we want welding machine, a lathe, and these things,
and a small dormitory because they walk down from hills,
they cannot go back, they will be with us at least for 3 months.
[Prof. Idichandy] Ok. [Prof. Ravindran] So, we want to give them some food and shelter.
Yeah, dormitory accommodation: you know, the committee
of Science and Technology came: Sir, you are a professor from IIT,
why are you asking for such low-grade equipment
like lathes and welding machine?
You ask for project with [inaudible] we will give you
because we know you - you are not going to stay there.
You will go - something will -
I said, I have a house, I have a commitment to live with them.
You come and see my house there. People said no.
I told the then secretary: no,
I said something is wrong with your approach to the tribal.
They have a training fund; skill-development fund.
I was asked to submit a project.
After that the expert committee ask these questions.
I said: I don't want your money.
I want only if you give me. I am not
something, any another project - that was my personal experience.
So, we don't get anyway;
all this effort is done by private money.
There is no government and their money or
Government of Tamil Nadu money, you know.
[inaudible] worked with tribals, even the lot of
[Prof. Ravindran] projects. [Prof. Idichandy] Is there any appreciation from either the government or?
[Prof. Ravindran] Government? No. Government, there is no appreciation,
but lot of other agency which recognize us,
they are give us some awards here and there.
Now, we because we also do organic farming
[Prof. Idichandy] Ok. [Prof. Ravindran] with certification.
So, that's a, even in hills where there is no rainwater
we have to keep them to grow millets and
you know post-harvesting machines; that is
what we want - they stopped worrying because
they could not do like millets, they cannot dehusk them.
They are very hard.
So, we have a small small machines to dehusk them.
And we mark it down further.
So, that way you see the - in the last 20 years,
the tremendous development has taken place in that village,
among women we taught them embroidery.
You do at home and then earn
[Prof. Ravindran] 100 rupees more from embroidery. [Prof. Idichandy] Oh.
Women at home; empowering women
[Prof. Ravindran] it's really the empowering women. [Prof. Idichandy] Yeah.
Then we have these people, we give them free
as - because we collect many 100 rupees from each individual,
[Prof. Ravindran] give them 1 year of free medical help, both [Prof. Idichandy] Ok.
inpatient, outpatient, all medicines free, 100.
[Prof. Ravindran] Just to make them to come to hospital. We have nearly
40 bed hospital with extremely good facilities,
with all facility, ECG, this thing, monitoring, everything.
It is much better than a district hospital in the middle of the village.
And we run a school now for the staff children.
[Prof. Ravindran] They said [Prof. Idichandy] Ok.
our children must speak English like you.
They were kids when we started the hospitals,
when we trained them, the girls, you know
all our nurses are only local girls, tribal girls.
[Prof. Ravindran] Our doctors have trained them. [Prof. Idichandy] Ok.
And now the children are grown up
and [inaudible], built a school for them, teach them English.
[Prof. Ravindran] We are doing that. That is happiness. [Prof. Idichandy] Okay.
[Prof. Idichandy] Great, with Professor Ravindran, we have been on a
very long journey in small 1 hour;
I don’t know how many minutes we have taken about 100 minutes.
[off-camera] Yes. [Prof. Idichandy] Or little above that.
[off-camera] Yes yes. [Prof. Idichandy] I am sure that this message will go to many many
people once it comes out as a project of the
Heritage Centre of IIT Madras.
I hope some of the remarks that you have made
reaches the people to whom it is meant and
with that note let me take -
Thank you very much.
I think, thanks for your time and I think I'll thank the Heritage Centre,
Mr. Kumaran and Mrs. Mamata for the
effort they are taking to talk to the alumni and faculty together.
[Prof. Idichandy] Senior people. [Prof. Ravindran] Senior people who have spent a lot of time
[Prof. Ravindran] to get a feedback of their experience. [Prof. Idichandy] Yeah.
Now and then. Make it public, I think,
[Prof. Ravindran] if people I think they have been, yes. [Prof. Idichandy] Yeah, I am sure it will go.
I think, I have said lot of things, they are purely my opinion.
[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah. [Prof. Ravindran] Not meant to hurt to people, but my personal feeling
because we have worked so much: 50 years in this business
of education and technology.
So, certain times, you know, I used to really get frustrated
because of somebody not supporting, not understanding.
So, whatever I said is because of that frustration,
but it is not meant to hurt anybody,
[Prof. Ravindran] but really, I - what. [Prof. Idichandy] No, I think whatever you have said will be
taken in - in the - true spirit of it.
But I am really thankful to, really, my career growth
opportunities, especially the final great opportunity of NIOT came
[Prof. Ravindran] because of my association with IIT Madras [Prof. Idichandy] Yeah.
Ocean Engineering Centre because I never expected
that I become a Ocean Engineer,
and especially my association with Professor Scheer
in Turbomachines Laboratory,
the support, given on the training [inaudible] so.
And that has helped me in other parts of life, you know,
you became a better overall well-rounded person.
And then, we are able to help people.
So, the hands-on experience, everywhere helpful,
[Prof. Ravindran] either in our rural technology or hospital [Prof. Idichandy] Ok.
or Ocean Technology, we able to see through a
wide spectrum of activities because of that
great experience from IIT Madras.
[Prof. Idichandy] I thank - [Prof. Idichandy] Ok, I think one thing I forgot is
[Prof. Idichandy] asking something about the family, yeah.
- Contribute
to the Centre -
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Support - Digital
Material
Prof. S. Ramani in conversation with Prof. C.S. Swamy
I am Dr. C. S Swamy,
former colleague of Professor Ramani.
So, we are known each other almost from the time
we joined together around 1961.
Professor Ramani was born in
July 16, 1934 16 July at Salem.
He had his education B.E. Mechanical
1956 he got his graduation, Madras University.
He also got B.E. Electrical
1958 in Madras University
and more than anything he was
a also got in Auxiliary Air Force
he was a aeronautical ground engineer
and he did his Masters in IC Engineering, Internal Combustion
in 1960 in Madras University,
post graduate diploma
on in management from IIM
Calcutta in 1967
he went from IIT to do that
and finally, he got his Ph.D.
in Industrial Engineering from IIT Madras.
So, he is an alumnus of IIT Madras.
Then, during in 1955 to 61
he was a lecturer in
MIT Chrompet
and 56 to 63 he was also a commissioned flying officer
in the Auxiliary Air Force,
1961 to 83
he served in IIT Madras
in various capacities starting with lecturer
and finally,
was a professor
he was both taking courses on Mechanical
as well as Industrial Engineering and Management.
And he moved over as a director
of NITIE the expansion being National Institute of
Industrial Engineering and under the Ministry of HRD
at Bombay now called Mumbai
and he retired in 93
and during this period
he had he was sent a deputation
from IIT Madras for 5 years and since it
deputation could not be renewed
and he was requested to continue in NITIE
because of large contribution there.
So, he transferred his services to NITIE.
So, he retired from the NITIE in 93.
But he served as a senior professor
in Acadamy of Excellence in Management, Chennai
and he was also a vice chancellor
of Kanchi University for 2 years 96 to 98.
Now since 98 till he
completed his 80 years 2014
he has been several things
he has been advisor, consulting professor,
distinguish adjunct faculty
in several colleges and universities in Tamilnadu.
And as regards the awards and distinction
that is a very large number starting from a student days,
but I would like to just mention
that he was conferred
the Lillian Gilbreth award for outstanding contribution
towards the Professional Industrial Engineering in 1987
by triple I E
hope with a International Institution Industrial Engineering. That's correct.
And he was also confer the Distinguished Alumini Award
College and Engineering at Guindy. Yes.
Professor Ramani, I just I wanted to clarification. Yes.
Namely you have taken your B.E. in two branches.
True. Mechanical. True. Electrical,
but during this period you were also serving
as a faculty member in MIT Chromepet. Yes.
Did you do it by part time?
It is like this
after I finished my B.E. degree
in Mechanical Engineering. Yeah.
Which is a 4 year course
they permitted us to do take up Electric Engineering
with one more year of attendance.
Oh I see. Because many subjects were common
between Mechanical and Electrical. Yeah.
So, I did that
B.E. in electrically with one more years attendance
and then joined MIT Chromepet.
Oh I see. And from my MIT Chromepet
after 2 years I was deputed
to the M.Sc. Internal Combustion Engineering course
at Guindy.
I see. For one and half years.
Went back to MIT and then I saw the advertisement for IIT
applied and came here. Ok,
that brings me to very interesting thing
you have been studying in Guindy Engineering College.
That’s correct.
And that means, you must have seen
the its ought to inauguration
the IIT Madras in 1959.
Yes, I saw that.
You mean the foundation stone ceremony I mean. Yes yes.
In between CLRI and IIT. I was not in IIT at that time,
but no it is outside. Outside yes.
And what I would like to know is
that you must have seen that gate.
It is a original gate of IIT Madras.
Yes. A single gate was there. That's correct.
Now we have got in gate and out gate
and do you have any photograph
or any rememberance of that gate?
I have remembrance, but that I don't have a photograph.
Ok. Because at that time I was in MIT.
Yeah. Just came across for the.
No this is I am talking of 1961.
61. Oh 61 yes.
61 also it was only a single gate.
Yeah single gate.
Because I joined in October.
Yes. You joined in what?
June-July. June-July ok.
So, the this gate was there up to 62
or something like that.
I remember that function, but
I don't have any idea. Yeah, that is one thing which
Heritage Centre was trying to find out
other thing which I want to know because it is
truly for heritage purposes
there was to be a lake.
Almost from the entrance
and going in front of the temple.
And then it was just
taking a turn at the shopping centre.
Yes. And going back to the lake
road or lake quick lake is there.
Very true.
Going further almost up to that this stadium.
Yes, yes.
And in fact, some time in the early 60s,
I remember there was boating was arranged.
Yes. As a this Professor Sengupto he was director
and boats were played for one day or two days
and it was a very big attraction. Yes.
So, you remember that? I remember that.
Yeah. And thereafter
they used to plant
Plantain trees all over
and the yield used to be distributed.
Yeah. Among. That's what;
that is what I was trying to tell
there was mango trees. Yes. Vegetable garden
all this from used
water. That's a sewage water. Used water.
So, we used to get it.
So, of course so, monkeys population.
Yeah. So, everything has been destroyed.
Had you anything do with NCC?
Not NCC. Ok,
but during the Indo-Chinese war in. Yes. In 1962. Yes.
We was in the same building you were called back by the.
Yes, I was called off.
You are called off for ground duty.
I was called off for a ground duty at a Kalaikoodam base.
I see I see. But then my marriage had been fixed
2 months later.
And so,
I told the air marshal
that it is happening
then he immediately posted me address the
Meenambakkam airport to be in charge of a troop loading.
I see. I had to remove all the seats and put the troops
count them and send them.
Were you again used in the Indo-Pakistan war?
No I was not in the Indo-Pakistan war. Ok.
Yes. By then. Yes.
Another thing I would like to know was
do you remember the consecration of the
Jalakanteshwara temple? Yes, I might remember
the Kanchi Shankaracharya had come there.
That is the time when I discussed with him
my intention to go to IIM Calcutta.
And he blessed me saying yes,
good idea you can go and come back he said.
To IIM I see. IIM Calcutta.
Oh that. During the Kumbabishekam.
I see I see. I met him.
No, but the Shankaracharya Shringeri had also come.
Yes. And do you remember who did that
I my remember is Y. S. Ramaswamy
did. Yes. They sat down. Yes. And did that. Correct. Ok
These are the information I just want to know because
there is nobody else to corroborate what I know.
You are correct I remember Y. S. Ramaswamy
which is dhoti and attires over. Yeah
And another thing which I tried to find out was
that see 1961 when I joined,
I was in Cauvery hostel.
Initially as a resident
then I was made a hostel warden.
62 beginning to 62 June
and then during that time
along with the PTI there.
I arranged a number of staff students sports.
Cricket and all that.
And I used to go in the evening
set up the whole thing and Natarajan the registrar
Yes. was very interested
his personal secretary Dubey
and actually we played the first match.
But there are no photographs of that. I see.
But the second match which was played,
there are photographs. I see. I got an album.
I see.
And I in that my colleague Professor Aravamudhan.
And as a technical assistant Venkatachalam. Yes.
They were both playing for the league. Yes. They also
for their team.
And Mr. Natarajan and Dubey were also there.
So, Y. S. Ramaswamy was not there
he played in the first match.
I see. I remember all this.
So, this is one thing which
I could not get corroboration so, what I wanted to ask
you for I would like to know during your
when you joined in 1961.
The English faculty who was the English faculty?
Professor Krishna Rao
then Professor Krishna Murty came
Dr. A. V. Krishna Rao.
A. V. Krishna Murty he joined later. Little later.
V. S. Kumar. V. S. Kumar was there yes
he was. Vishwanathan.
Vishwanathan yes. Vishwanathan V. S.
Kumar. Kumar was the everly bird.
Yeah, Krishnamurthy worked college. He used to
come. Krishna Rao joined a little later.
Yeah a little later V. S. Kumar was there. Yes.
Unfortunately, he is not well.
Because of that we could not call him. I see.
And you were teaching both in
mechanical and industrial engineering. That's correct,
in mechanical as well as here because
I initiated the IC Engines Laboratory.
I see. In 1961.
And at that time there was nobody to teach
the subject of meteorology.
So, I was asked to teach meteorology there.
Until they recruit to suitable professor
then its only in 1960 1961 6 65.
That I expressed my intention
to study industrial management in IIM Calcutta.
At that time Professor Sengupto was the director.
He had an intention of starting
masters course in industrial engineering and industrial management.
So, he readily agreed
to mine asked me to write the entrance examination
I wrote the entrance examination got the first rank.
So, the director of IIM Calcutta welcomed me
and I said I will go on leave
Professor Sengupto said no I will depute you with salary
provided you give a contract
to come and serve at least for 3 years. Yeah. In IIT.
So, it happened
and that's how I went to IIM Calcutta.
Professor R. K. Gupta.
Yes. Was a professor of management or?
Yeah, Professor R. K. Gupta was professor of management
Teaching financial management
and Dr. Anantha Raman was
professor of economics in the same department.
What about Professor Dutta who passed away?
He came in later on Professor Dutta.
What he what does he?
Industrial engineer.
Oh, he was industrial engineer.
Both me and Professor Dutta were
in charge of the industrial engineering section.
I see, what what other
branch I mean faculty were there I mean
was there sociology or philosophy?
Yes. History was there I remember.
History was there. Professor Narayana Pillai was there.
Narayana Pillai was there then
out of that we had a short person. Ramachandran.
Ramachandran that's correct. Ramachandran short person. Yeah,
Ramachandran was there. But sociology he was not there.
Sociology he was not there I has sociology,
but psychology was there
Govindarajan was teaching that psychology.
I see because I don't remember.
He used to teach sociology also
in addition to psychology.
There was a lady before.
Yes, one lady was there Philips.
No no that Elizabeth.
Elizbeth Kurian was there. She was a English.
So, there was somebody who was doing
a huge survey, sociology survey and all
like that was a. It could be Dr. Hamsaleelavathi.
Must be Hamsaleelavathi also. Yes,
correct. That I remember. Yes you're correct.
You see the it so, happened that
she was playing paying a
very little amount to the volunteers
who are going around doing survey.
But then I got the project rules.
That was not permitted I was sitting in there.
Oh I see. Yeah, I was sit
used to sell chairman for this.
That's how I know about it.
Now please tell me about your
contribution to IIT Madras.
In particularly the
as you said just now
started the. Yes. Internal combustion engineering. Yes,
the Internal Combustion Engineering laboratory
was initially set up by me
and later on of course,
we had a West German professor by named Dr. Stahl
who moved in 3 years later.
And he took up the
concert on the laboratory
and since I had done the M.S.c in internal combustion engineering,
I introduced a number of experiments
in the laboratory here
and since I was in the Air Force even then
I brought in a engine from HAL
for testing in our IC Engines Laboratory.
It really brought a lot of fame to our institute.
Because we are the first person
to test an aeronautical air aircraft engine
in our laboratory.
I see. And subsequently
the first batch of IIT students
when they came to the 3rd year,
I used to have a viva voce examination for the students
and I used to bring a lot of components old components
like carburetor,
fuel pump keep it on the table.
So, when each student comes
I used to ask them to pick up one of them
and say what is it,
what is it's function,
what is it made of and so on.
So, very soon news spread that I am adopting this technique.
So, all the students used to come to the
foreman of the laboratory Dr. Somashekar Mr. Somashekar
and learn from him
what are these components etc.
So, that they will do well in the viva voce.
I said that was my object to make them learn. Right.
So, it was a very interesting experience for me
to make them learn about all these things.
Yeah. In fact, that
that reminds me that German professor,
he was in early I don't remember who is the
Mr. Ebert,
but Professor Ebert was a only Yeah.
workshop superintendant.
Once the German professor told me when 59 or 60.
He used to when the first interview
B.Tech. interview he used to come
he used to keep screw driver, cutting plier
and things like ordinary tools. Yeah.
And he used to say many students had not even seen
Yes. such things.
So, you are. Yes. Something.
Dr. Scheer was there. Yeah. Initially.
Yeah. I had an interesting experience
when I joined Engineering College,
Dr. Paul was the principal.
He used to say what are a extra curricular activities,
the students use to say football cricket and all that.
So, he had a cricket bat hidden behind him.
If you see cricket I'm a champion and all that
he'll say come out to the open field
now are you a bowler or batsman now do it.
I see.
Very interesting like this.
And the Professor B. S. Murty
later took over and.
Yes, Professor B. S. Murty took over
that Professor Y. Srinivas (incoherent).
And quite a number of people he trained.
Interesting. Some of people got Ph.D. in.
Professor Gopalakrishnan.
Yeah.
good number of Professor Nagalingam
quite a few. Quite a few. I don't know
we are not in contact with. I see.
And with they all retried. They spread out and quite a few of them
went to U.S. also
B. S. Murty himself went to the U.S. for. But B. S. Murty
is no more rather there. Yes. He passed away last year.
So, 94. Yes yes yes.
But others
he was very enthusiastic.
So, that was,
but the combustion engineering came
at same time know.
Little later when M. C. Gupta came M. C. Gupta over and took over that.
Oh he.
Yeah of course, and Heitland.
Heitland was there.
Gupta was looking out of external combustion engineering.
Yeah. And Murty and me were looking out of
internal combustion engineering
and regarding your associates of the projects
Yeah. with the bachelor’s students and
M.Tech. students. Yeah. What about that
which field was you are doing it?
Was in industrial? Actually in
around 67 after my stint at IIM Calcutta,
I was taken to the Humanities and Social Sciences Department.
Where the M.Tech. courses in industrial engineering
and the M.Tech. course in industry management were host.
In fact, I asked Dr. Sengupto
is it not illogical to house them
engineering course in Humanities Department,
you should logically go to mechanical or some other department.
He had an explanation for that,
he said in today’s context
industrial engineering has got a lot of social sciences
content in that.
And if I put in a mechanical other department will
worry for that.
So, I put it in this department.
And of course, to some extent it was what he said was true.
Because management man management etc. Right.
You require a lot of so, social inputs economics
and finance and so,
Infact what I see from the
for the archival purposes
Yeah. And I went around the planning of the institute.
I find that they had planned industrial engineering
Yes. a very first this one.
Correct. In fact, they wanted
in the very first group of
people what we sent an scholarship to Germany.
Three people resourse sent in 1958 itself.
I see. So, very surprising. Very surprising. He was not done
they had given a lot of importance to
Yes. industrial engineering.
It has very much in Professor Sengupto's mind.
Yeah. And that is why when I said
I would like to go and study in IIM Calcutta
immediately said yes I will send you, but come back.
planning for very beginning. Yes.
And Germany at and German professor of course,
who had Professor Klein.
Professor Klein in Humanities Department.
And. And of course, Professor Stahl in IC engines
labority was there German professor.
I see. And. And
the Sharma was the Indian
equals German language. That's correct
yes that's correct Indian language Sharma yes.
And who else do you remember from those days Asthana.
Astana psychology. He was very young person.
He is young.
Astana and Govindarajan
psychology and related subjects. Oh, I see
was that. yes.
Were you in anyway connected with the
the warden or a any other
company? oh yes I was
when I returned from IIM Calcutta.
the then director Dr. Ramachandran
asked me to take over his warden of the Mandakini hostel
where first year students come in there.
He is first year.
He gave me reason.
Mandakini hostel. He gave me reason for that he said.
You are studied in management and industrial engineering
now you should be able to manage the first year students
where I get a lot of problems
many first year students when they come to IIT
they lose their bearings.
So, you have to take care of all that
and was a lot of anecdotes in Mandakini hostel
and in fact, one student lost his wrist watch
very costly wrist watch
and I was to investigate it.
So, I asked him a lot of questions I couldn't
finally, I said who was the last person to enter the room
how to reach or last it.
He named his colleague
who was the son of a governor of Reserve Bank in Sri Lanka.
He come on deputation.
I had felt it very delicate to ask him,
but still I called him
to the humanity through the.
Administrative block.
Security officer was sitting,
I said look there seems you some doubt
and are you aware of it he was hesitating
then I said the police are here
they would like to interview you,
but do why do you want all these things
if there is anything you can tell me now,
I will save you
he said yes sir I stole that book
which book I said the library book he said.
Oh I see.
So, then I said he must be the boy.
Then I said what about the wrist watch.
He hesitated. Yes sir, I stole the wrist watch
where is it I sold it
and got cash immediately I contacted his father
immediately he said don't spread this image
I will send the money I will reimburse the wrist watch.
The person who lost it
the person who lost the wrist watch
his father was Professor N. S. Ramaswamy
Director of NITIE at that time.
Oh I see.
So, he said Dr Ramani thank you very much
I got the money I to buying the very same watch and give it to my son.
Thank you, you were also a detective he said.
I see I did not.
Another incident is I don't know whether you remember
all the hostel cooks went on strike.
Strike that was in 1973.
73. That's what
another thing which more people don't know.
Yeah. I wanted to ask you about it.
It happened and then immediately
when the all the wardens in the wardens met the director
he said we should do something about it
we went to various hotels in Madras
collected whatever was available paying the cash and came back,
but then none of them would give receipts
regular receipts.
So, I told that director this is the problem.
We can overcome strike problem
by getting the food,
but we cant get receipts proper receipts
etc. they are not giving,
we told the accounts officer
please see that don't insist
on regular receipt the wardens are you must trust the wardens
and what receipt they give take it.
So, when after two or three days
the strike was called off and then
the accounts officer said where is the bill.
We gave him produced tits of paper
if you done we give it to the director
he said no I permitted that it was a emergency.
So, we cant give a regular bills and all that.
This was in 73. 73.
That means, it was Professor Pandalai or Professor Sampath
Ramachandran left around that time. Yes.
So, I think it was Pandalai. That was the second time
Second strike the first strike
was when I was in Mandakini Hostel 69.
69.
69 69 70 around that time. I see
I was very first year. I think I was
called for the I mean the Hostel Day.
Oh. Mandakini Hostel I remember right corner,
that it is the last hostel.
Exactly the last one very young. Last hostel
now there is I am told still that
next to that is the coconut ground.
The coconut ground is still there.
I see. Coconut trees are not been there.
I am not visited this. So, I don't know about this one
and that is the what about sports activities
and clubs and all that?
I used to be a regular visitor to the staff club.
Near the director's house there.
In fact, I remember Dr. Aravamudhan and me used to play chess.
Yeah, Krishna Rao
Aramadan was the good chess player.
Aramadan is a good chess player be besides being cricketeer and
sometimes we used to go very late at the night 9:30
and both his wife and my wife used to shout.
What about dinner?
I see.
I know you originally stayed in D block.
Yes. When I was. That's correct.
And then you moved into C 1.
C 1. Where did you moved into C 1? C 1 54
where Dr. Shankaran was there
civil engineering Shankaran.
Then Balraman Professor Balaraman was also staying there.
Then of course, we
I became a warden then I went to the warden’s quarters.
Then you came to Lake View Road.
No before Lake View Road there is another road there
similar to Lake View Road I forget the name.
I see. We were there for some time.
I see. And then I moved into Lake View Road.
B 5 Lake View Road. Yeah,
after you had left the block,
an old gentleman
with his daughter in law
ame to my house. I was not there.
To meet my mother in law.
And mother in law was a wife of a James,
but as I say Professor C. Somaiah.
And that old man was I think
was a junior or working with Professor Somaiah that's Mr. Somaiah.
So, my wife in the usual ways asked the lady;
So, what your husband doing? in Tamil of course. Yes.
And she hesitated and said
his name was Cho.
Cho. Cho that is the first time I came to know.
I see. About Cho Ramaswamy.
So, that he was your father in law. Yes.
And then of course, during
Professor Indiresan stand in the extra more lecturer. Yes, yes.
As I told you know the whole hall was full half an hour before. Yes, yes.
And it so, happened when I went after a class
I could get in the very first row a seat.
Then next to me sat
Shivaji Ganeshan's son in law Yes. Who is to
work in mechanical engineering. mechanical engineering. Narayana Swami.
That's correct.
And it so, happened his guide's wife.
Was V. Radha Krishna mechanical. His wife
came and sat on the floor.
So, he was feeling very delicate.
So, madam madam madam.
Then I said
she said no no no I am sitting with other ladies.
don't bother. So, beside there was it very.
Yes. Fully crowded in the. Yes
he was very popular He visit your house afterwards?
Yes yes.
After the lectures. Yes yes yes
of course, we meet each other, but
we don't talk much of politics now that we.
yeah. But he had a very good sense of humour
and he found in me also a person interest in humour.
So, the book when I published
Humour and Productivity, he got two sets of copies.
I see.
And he said whenever I go for a meeting or so,
I look into your book
to see whether there is any fresh joke I can quote from there.
I see I see.
Very interesting.
Could you say something about your work in NITIE?
Yes, when I went as a director of NITIE
and took over actually I was supposed to be relieved
from IIT Madras and
just before that I had enjoyed my sabbatical leave.
So, the registrar said
you have to serve for 3 years after your sabbatical leave.
So, only afterwards you can go to NITIE,
but then the then director Professor Indiresan said
after all NITIE is just like
IIT another institute under the same ministry
instead of working here he is
working there any how he is going to come back after 5 years,
but Sethunathan the then registrar would not agree.
He says the rules say this.
Follows, then I told Sethunathan you seem to be a pakka bureaucrat.
He he wouldn't budge from that then.
So, what he did was you convert all your
sabbatical leave
the salary which was paid to you must paid back and all that.
Professor Indiresan said sorry
when Sethunathan said sir I can't do much about it
even though I am on your side.
So, I met the then chairman of NITIE
and said this is what is happening,
he said no I want you here
what I will do is as a director of NITIE
I will allow you to do consultancy like faculty.
I see. You will get some more income.
So, you pay the money now and I can
compensate out of that he said.
Oh. that is how
I joined that was interesting and then when I joined
the faculty members are in only 32 in number
and there are not many research going on at that time.
So, I told the board
please I will introduce a lot of research courses
training programmes,
but I doubled the faculty I want
from 32 to 64 I made a calculate.
The chairman said we trust you we will give you,
but where will you get the faculty from?
I said leave that to me.
So, what I did was I used to visit IITs
IIMs etc. and people are about to be promoted, but
did not get the promotion some chance due to lack of
vacancies and all that I talk to them.
So, very soon
I recruited faculty from IITs IIMs etc.
In fact, later on when I visited IIM
they said Dr Ramani is coming be careful
take your faculty from here.
But I managed it and
the institute came up very well with lot of research and all that
and that is why after 5 years,
the ministry asked me to continue for a second 5 years
because I had. I see. Expanded the role of the institute.
I learnt a lot of things
academic administration from IIT Madras
and introduced the concept there.
Like the M.S. courses which we introduced here.
Like the introduced M.Tech.
I introduce the same concept there.
So, executive from industry used to come and do it M.S. course.
So, IIT experience helped me quite a bit in
academic administration.
And how many students took there
M.S. and Ph.D. here in IIT?
In IIT, under me I mean.
Under me at on the whole about 10 students one of them was
T. T Narendran who
became a dean and all that. Yeah. That he
he my M.S. research scholar actually.
So, nearly 10 students underwent their M.S. course under me.
one is Vijay Kumar who is now senior associate in MIT
you see. Oh I see.
And then Varadarajan,
University of Texas and things like that. I see.
Many of them are now in the U.S.
You have done a lot of work on disaster management.
That's correct.
And you know somewhere around the 92 or so.
The final Finance Minister Manmohan Singh Yeah.
introduced Technology Mission Project. That's correct.
And the one of the Technology Mission Projects
given to IIT Madras and IIT Bombay
was Disaster Management. Yeah. Because
they both clone to cyclones and Yes. floods and all.
So, is it the reason why NITIE got
involved and you got involved in this?
Actually, a I got IIT Madras involved in 1982.
When the Divi Cyclone happened in Andra Pradesh
more than 3000 people are killed.
At Guntur. Guntur.
So, the late Dr. Naidu was said
called a meeting of a faculty and then said
you are all scientists and professors,
you must do something about it to solve this problem.
Otherwise the nation will lose its credibility in scientists
and engineers. I put my hand up and said I can simulate
for a cyclone and train people to handle cyclones.
He said what does it mean?
I said you cannot create a war
to train our soldiers and journals to fight a war.
You are to go away with simulation. Similarly
you can simulate for a disaster and train. He agreed
and recommended to the Tamilnadu Government.
At that time the late Dr. M. G. Ramachandran was Chief Minister
in Tamil Nadu.
Occasionally he used to come to the IIT guest house and dispose files
because a very quiet place for him.
So, he called me suddenly in from the department
I met him he said
I got a recommendation
since you are going to do in disaster management,
I give you one and half lakhs of rupees,
how long will it take to do it?
I said I will take in 6 months, I will be able to do it
and finish it. Will you be able to train our collectors and others?
I said yes.
So, he sent one and half lakhs of rupees the very next day
we got it and I started my programme here
for and then at the end of it is a simulator
it is called Sim Clone.
Simulated cyclone and there was a
technical officer from World Meteorological Organisation
who was an observer in my programme here.
So, he recommended
for a small grant from the World Meteorological Organisation.
At the end of the 3 day programme
I trained about 20 district collectors,
two senior officers from Army
and two senior officers from the Police Department.
They all recorded its a very useful simulator
they learned a lot of things
which they could not have learned in real life
and recommended it should become a
standing training tool
for senior people in government
who are who have to take decisions
in disasters management etc.
It was very interesting
and that is where IIT started its the first
work in disaster management.
The simulator was a real known it is called Sim Clone
and based on that the
Virginia University in USA
is now bringing out 5 volumes on disaster management
only through case studies
and I present is case is accepted.
It is being printed by the LCL press
will come out shortly in a couple of months.
I see. So, that is how we initiated this.
Later on we got a circle from UGC saying
who is it disaster management is not being
taught in any of the management institutes?
You were teaching so much of management and all that
the answer was
if you study disaster management you will get
jobs in only in government,
but our boys want to go to private institutes and all that
and he recommended institutes
to introduce at least one course in disaster management
and very recently
it has made a compulsory subject in geography
for CBSE schools. 10, 11 and 12
NCRT has written books also compulsory
disaster. I see. To
To make them sort of sensitized to
disaster management, safety
and things like that yes flood control.
Mine was on cyclone
that's why I call Simulated Cyclone
Sim Clone it was called. I presented a paper in the
U.S. on that on that basis, I was made the Asian vice president
of the International Society for Emergency Management.
They liked the simulator very much.
I see. And even now I am
I went to NITIE and pursued that.
One or two doctor students came out
in this subject disaster management.
So, I am even though it is not very popular
in education institutes the disaster management
it is very useful for the government to do it.
See when the
Technology Mission Projects were introduced
it was told the user should
contribute at least 50 percent of the project. Yes.
So, as I remember there was
some faculty in the Civil Engineer Department here Yes.
who went to Cuddalore and Nagapattinam?
They tried to
set up I don't think it was simulator I don't know.
They collected lot of data.
And then finally,
they put them in together.
And how to manage this and all that they went to
meet one of the ministers.
And they had a very bad experience.
So, that was during the
90s. 90s. 90s 95.
So, they they were very disappointed
because it so, happened that I was sitting in the. Yeah.
project staff. Yeah.
Election all that and I felt that something which
with the government you see it was the other way around.
The government the Minister Secretary's
PA etc. was
how much will the government get?
So, the government
giving the money to all of us.
So, that was the status. That was the status. Of the Tamilnadu government.
So, I am sorry to.
No no I understand that. Include this in a interview.
That another interesting experience was
Professor Sampath then deputy director.
Yeah. He initiated what it is called
interdisciplinary research in IIT Madras.
A very nice concept
he said faculty members can go outside the department
collaborate other departments
do joint projects research projects.
Yeah, that is that continues.
He did it in a very big style.
In fact, after that
I joined hands with the Applied Mechanics Department
Professor B. V. Rao was there.
We started a M.Tech. course
on maintenance engineering and maintenance management.
Yeah, that's I think I remember.
It was very successful
my boys got very good jobs after that
then I had a collaborate in Civil Engineering Department
Professor H. Raman and myself we were asked to find out
what should be the optimal length of the outer arm
or the outer harbor in Madras,
where all ships can come and all that.
He did the simulation of a dam constructor small model.
I did the management simulation
together we got it published also
and the Madras porters also congratulated us because
they use our information
for deciding the optimal length of the outer wall.
So, it is all started because of the
interdisciplinary movement which was encouraged.
They even said we will give you joint apartments
within a same two departments
you can be professor in two departments and all that.
Similarly, there are other things in Mathematics Department
we collaborated for simulation.
I collaborate with the Chemistry Department your department.
With Professor M. V. C. Sastri.
He got a project from Department of Science and Technology.
Hydrogen energy. Hydrogen energy.
So, I did the management aspect the forecasting technological forecasting.
the last of the volumes was I have done
done by me.
I see I knew that you are. Yes.
Connected with the hydrogen energy. Yes.
Because we did on the on the
storage of hydrogen. Storage of hydrogen
yes merchant hydrogen. Yeah. And things like that.
In fact,
it so, happened that sometime in 90
the there was
three or four groups working on the hydrogen energy
in India. Yes.
And Department of Navy Yeah.
in Washington. They seem to have seen and finally,
pointed out the work done by
the group of involved me and Professor V. Srinivasan.
I see. And B. Vishwanathan
and then they contacted me and
then one of the scientists from there came and said
can you take it up?
I see. So, on our side we will provide what.
So, the idea was
to have a hydrogen storage
Correct. installed in a submarine. Yes.
So, they they asked me whether I could spend one year.
In U.S. I see. Working on and it was
something where which I could not do.
So, I had to transfer a project to an industry.
I see.
Were that is fix science foundation. I see.
Because we were working on
at installing a hydrogen energy.
Ok.
I mean the whole manifold everything there.
Yes. And they are started some work. I see.
So, I think somehow
the Central Government you know
there was Ministry of
Nonconventional Energy Ministry of something else.
Yes. So, environment. Yes.
So, all the confusion finally.
I see. A project was never given
other wise we would have
made use of the hydrogen. I see.
I remember in this project
based on the work which I had done
I present a paper in the World Hydrogen Energy Conference.
At Stuttgart.
They had exhibited a car
in the conference. Yes,
yes. Running out of hydrogen in the fuel
the exhaust was nothing but a
few drops of water that was exhausted
non polluting all that. If they have even
own plane. Yes yes. Germany.
Very interesting. But some how whether it is
because in the space side it is different thing. Yeah.
Liquid hydrogen liquid oxygen. Yes. Being used all
this quite something else.
Our projection indicated by 2025.
The main hydrogen will be the main carrier of energy.
And not the electrical wires
and so on that is the prediction 2025.
Now I will go back to something.
See you said you were in MIT.
That's correct. 56 to 61. 61.
Was President Kalam was a student there? Yeah,
President Kalam just finished when I entered.
Yeah. It is a very interesting anecdote.
After some years we were in a plane
and we were reminiscing
we were standing in the aile and talking
the air hostess came and said look gentlemen
please sit down give you a way for others.
Then I said see please sit down he said no you sit down
I said no no you sit down.
He said look when I was a student you were a lecturer.
I see. So, you must sit down first he said I
still remember that
the way he said that. Did you keep in touch with him? Yes,
but not when he became president it was
very difficult for access and all. No no no not president.
In fact, he called me for DRDO where he was
heading there. Exactly
thats why. And asked me to give lectures on project management
and my very first lecture
he said sat through the entire lecture one and half hours.
I see. To see what was he
because I did a lot of work on project management
computerizing that
and probabilistic aspects and all that.
So, he appreciated that very much.
Was Professor Pandalai was teaching at that time?
Yes, Pandalai was an MIT Chromepet we were colleagues.
I see. And he was in aeronautical engineering.
And glider was being built at that time
by Dr. Repenthin who came from West Germany.
And I used to associate myself with that also.
So, when Dr. Pandalai came to IIT Madras as a director
he was asking me to continue their work.
He came as a professor first.
Yeah professor first. Yeah.
Then he became. Then he became director.
But then I said I am in little away from
aeronautical engineering air force
and. I see. All that that is more on maintenance management,
but one thing when when I was in the Humanities Department
for the M.Tech. courses in
industrial engineering industry management
one of my strategies was to have a very close association
with the professional associations
which were connect 4 professional associations.
Madras Management Association,
Indian Institute of Industrial Engineering,
Indian Institute of Materials Management.
Indian Institute of Plant Engineering so on.
So, it was the students also I made them
you go for meetings with this association etc.
It was very easy for me to get them projects
in industries because of this association.
It was very very useful there.
So, the I kept very close
in the professional associations and industries
that help me a lot in placing that.
You say that you are still keeping busy.
Yes. And one of the things I notice is
that you are connect with the State Bank of India
as a director.
Yes, I was elected as the
director to the Central Board of State Bank of India 3 times.
For 9 years
and one cannot be elected more than 3 times
thats why they let me go.
What was when was it that was in 2003, 2013? 13.
Oh very recently.
What was your experience like there?
First of all I learned a lot about
major projects going on in India.
Secondly, I was made the chairman of the Technology Committee.
To introduce core bankings.
I see. That was a very good experience for me
and I asked them to initiate a research on
early warning forecasting
of non performing asset.
I said you come to know only after
the financial figures are analyzed,
but I being a technological man I can tell you
much before that you can sense that it is going to fail.
By studying technological factors
like a delays in supplies
and too much inventory in the
in process inventory factors like this
you take and do research
and have a early warning forecast
they asked me to do research in that,
but it was too late at then after I left
State Bank of India,
I record an association or an institute
through which I could have done this being.
In fact, your Ph.D. was on
stochastic process on event.
My Ph.D. was stochastic process of at inventory control
Dr. S. K. Shrinivasan.
Yeah. Was my guide.
One interesting thing happened
when he was to be awarded the Ph.D. degree,
the Mechanical Department claimed that
it should be in their department.
The Humanities Department said
it should be in our department he is working here,
the Mathematics Department said
the guide is in Mathematics Department.
So, you should get then finally, I said
you are not ask the candidate
you all discussing myself
finally, they gave me the Ph.D.
from Mechanical Engineering Department.
Yeah, I saw that because Professor
Shrinivasan I written monograph on stochastic process.
Yes, along with the Richard Bellman
he is collaborated come with the two very good books also. Yeah
And you have written book along with Nagarajan.
Yes, what happened when I returned from IIM Calcutta.
That was a time when Professor Sampath brought a 370 computer
into IIT Madras.
When we were teaching computer programming
we found it very difficult to
correct the answer papers of students
because they have got their own logic,
you have to read that logic and then
find out what mistake they made.
So, the three of us Koteshwar Rao from Mathematics Department
Nagarajan from Chemical Engineering Department myself
joined together and wrote a book on Fortran Programming.
Oh Fortran Programming.
Yeah. I see.
With the industrial engineering application.
So, and
the Anna University prescribed it as a textbook also.
Oh I see. Yes.
Because Nagarajan who was in chemical engineering finally,
he ended in.
Computer engineering. Computer engineering and
retired as a professor. That's true.
Are you in touch with Nagarajan? Yes, he is.
He is not well. He is not well
I have met him at Alandur more also
he lost his wife is you know that.
He was in Thiruvanmiyur know.
Yeah and then he moved over to Alandur.
Yeah stayed with some one. I met him about a couple of months back.
Oh I see. He just rang me and
said why don't we meet
so. Yeah that's you you were thinking of inviting him.
Yes. I have said that
according to me he was not well.
So, I don't know. But he is talking now
not well in the sense, if you send a car he will come.
In fact, he came to my residence one day and.
Oh very good.
We had a chat for more than two hours
reminiscing how we wrote the book on
computer programming. That's exactly the reason
because he is one of those
was in the early years. Yes and he used to
ascribe to me.
He is going to the Computer Department.
I I did not want to go to the Computer Department.
It was very interesting.
Yeah. When I went to Indian Institute of Management Calcutta
for the 2 year programme,
I was made the president of the students association there.
And the institute wanted to
change the grading system retrospectively.
Students said no we will go on strike
then the then director called me and said
Dr. Ramani you are from IIT Madras you are a faculty,
you must tell the students not to strike that's not good.
I said you taught a subject called role playing.
There in IIT I played the role of a faculty
here I am playing the role of a student.
So, I have to fulfill this role.
I see. Finally, they gave in to the students and all that very interesting.
And there was a editorial committee.
He published wanted to publish an article derogatory about the institute.
I said no.
They said you may be president,
but the editorial committee is independent of you.
They printed everything
it was supposed to be distributed the next day
it was kept in the directors office.
I went to the director's residence in the night
said give me the key
with a few students I went to his office
tore off those pages which
contained the derogatory article and kept it there.
The next day they founded the article was not there.
The editor said it is my prerogative to
choose articles,
I said it is my prerogative to.
To keep it there or not.
Very interesting.
With the result ultimately
I got the Best Student Award from IIM Calcutta
Memorial Award
because there are many interesting anecdotes in IIT itself.
We had a Centre for Rural Development in.
Yeah. Narayanapuram. Correct.
I was actively associated with that.
I developed a project called
Generation of Electricity in Villages Using Bullock.
Dr. Radha Krishna was in charge of that. I know.
And I presented one paper through costed
in Bangkok Air India Technology
and one in Colombo Sri Lanka imperial.
So, when I left IIT and went to NITIE I pursued this
I made a prototype
of generation of the electricity in villages using bullocks,
the then Prime Minister Dr. Chandrasheker
was keen he asked us a demonstrate in Delhi.
So, we went and demonstrated to him.
And he liked it so much
he said leave the machine here would get another one done for you.
Then when I came back
Professor Narasimha Rao visited our institute
for delivering the convocation.
He showed the project he appreciated.
Then we brought it to Madras Dr. M. S. Swaminathan.
He saw this and said Ramani is a very good idea,
pursue it.
I said I require funding for this
this is not possible to pursue this project,
but after now I am thinking of revising it
along with some other rural projects
and I am approaching some agencies for that
to give the idea.
For there is some
wheel I mean movement to the bullock cart.
Yes, we have a gearbox.
I see. And a generator.
So, the slow speed is converted to higher speed.
Oh I see. And then I had kept TV,
wet Grinder and all that.
I see. This was charging them.
So, that's how the
Prime Minister was very much interested in that. Yeah yeah.
And he said we have to develop villages
and these sort of things are very useful.
You pursue that he said
and what happened was subsequently
though I have some more ideas about it,
I require a institutional support for that
it is an individually the huge project to do. Yes.
But I got the ideas I am thinking of publishing in newspaper
So that it will attract attention.
Now with the cow protection and all that
I said you show the picture of Lord Krishna with cows.
what about the bullocks they said.
I have not got a good answer so,
so far it. Yeah. Bullocks are also very useful.
Yes. And with the organic manure
now our the. Yeah, organic product. Yeah with organic product
it will be very useful I am making a study of that even now.
Yeah the only thing is that
the manure produces methane.
Methane is supposed to be a green house gas. Yeah.
So, methane the half life period of methane.
Much more than carbon dioxide. Yes.
So, accumulation methane in stratosphere
Is going to.
In a long term point of view, yes.
Long time I think a problem for this.
But the gobar gas which you get out of it.
Yeah. It is 250 percent enriched when you give the gobar gas. Yes.
You can use for manures.
Yeah. And gobar gas can be used for heating and all that. Yes,
that's correct. But what you say now I think
from the point of the environment
I think that to the negative point.
Ok one thing I wanted to ask you.
Was Professor Anantha Raman. Yeah. And you.
Will you exchanging jokes or a sort of
whenever there were going to a staff meeting and all that
there use to be a sort of tit for tat.
Yeah, that I the reason for that is.
In a Humanities and Social Sciences Department
there was a divide between the engineers and the non-engineers. I see.
And because of that Dr. Anantha Raman was in the economics
non Engineering side I was in the engineering side.
So, we formed a group.
There used to be a lot of.
Now in fact, even in
the students were present.
It was they used to enjoy very much. Yes.
it so, happened that 87 or something like that.
Myself, Kuriakose and Professor Shrinivasan,
we caught the Coromandel Express at Buvaneshwara at night
11:45. I see.
Do the train comes from Calcutta.
It was boarded to time.
So, there was a co-passenger with me.
Who was working with Hindustan Zinc.
He passed out of
he passed out of IIT Madras.
M.S. or M.Tech.
I don't remember him he is of from this place only. I see.
And he told me next morning,
he said that we use to enjoy that.
With Professor Ramani and Professor Anantha Raman.
So, but he would say and immediately he would. Yes yes,
yes I used to say
industrial engineering should be out of humanities.
They they are not compatible with each other.
He said no we want you here because
we will get more funding for our department.
Now another thing I want to ask is
did Subramanya Swamy,
during the emergency period,
come to a Humanities?
C. Subramanya Swamy.
is the very delicate point. No yes, but.
No I will tell you why I am asking you this question,
because I in 82 December.
I was in IIT Kanpur
to set a question paper
of the. And there was a paper setter from IIT Delhi.
English paper setter
Professor Krishna Rao had come with me. Yeah.
And one Upadhyaya.
And he was arrested during the emergency.
Yes.
And he was talking about the emergency
Congress government and all that
and then he mentioned that
he put him in the train
in Delhi
and Subramanya Swamy being put a Punjabi.
Yes. Except that
Subramanya Swamy could not speak Punjabi.
Yes. So, he seems to have asked how
somebody talks in what shall I do?
But immediately after the train left
somehow they saw this
Upadhyaya there and they knew
they were searching for Subramanya Swamy
and then they arrested Upadhyaya.
Yeah. But what happened what I learnt was
Subramanya Swamy arrived stayed in IIT campus,
visited the Humanities Department.
Spent some time, gave a lecture,
had a discussion with the Anantha Raman.
Yes, I don't know. And was it true.
Yeah. Because later
Professor Pandalai seems to have received a letter from the
Prime Minister's Office. I see.
Yeah, this was this was that is what
Upadhyaya told me about he is coming to IIT Madras.
I see. But then I had heard about it
because the that
spread from the director’s office. I see
I don't remember,
but I can tell you another anecdote
he was invited for a dinner by Cho Ramaswamy
where I was also invited.
He was running a management school in Cochin,
he said Dr. Ramani why don't you join our board of governors there
then next day I wrote a letter him saying look
I don't want to be involved
in highly political
type of situation. Yeah because these is semi political
all that yes. Yes, something. Yes yes, but
I did not want to involve.
I knew about what he did in when he was
in IIT Delhi as a professor. I didn't know, but
He was in IIT Delhi I know.
He was union leader there.
Yeah, I know about it. Yeah.
But IIT Delhi has been in the
staff union and all that. Yeah.
For quite a long time. True.
And 98th JEE
I was the organizing chairman
And the results set were postponed by 10 days.
Because the all the
the pay commission scales were not implemented.
And so, the all the IITs struck one.
But then IIT Madras
and IIT Delhi did not join.
But Bombay and Kharagpur were very militant.
IIT Kanpur went on another way there. Yes yes,
I remember that. So,
we had a I had a lot of problem
Professor Shrinath was very angry with me,
but I couldn't do
and I told him that you have no voice in this
Yeah. because I am the organizing chairman
my word is has to taken and he agreed to that.
Finally, we did conduct.
I mean 10 days later we announced
We announced the result everything else was normalised.
At that time
when he was supposed to
visited our Humanities Department
he was not so, much a known
as he is now.
So, it must have
passed off without much notice from my side
that's what I thought.
No no no in 88. 88 You was not there.
I was not there. I was not there that's why. Not the I am only telling right.
No. No no I was responsible for another thing.
Which because still 87.
We used to have a paper in English.
So, 87
I conveyed to the directors all the IIT
that most of the students who get into IITs.
Now all they good in English.
True, very true.
So, therefore, there is no use in wasting
money as printing and setting a question paper in English,
but we will drop it.
So, they all agreed unanimously .
But unfortunately very next day
when the so, the meeting was held here and
everybody went back for the.
Next day at Times of India in Bombay
brought out center page saying
that the this is the background sorry back.
Back door.
Yeah back door.
For introducing Hindi.
In JEE and exactly that's what happened after the. I see.
That is how the
question papers started getting printed in Hindi.
Oh I see.
And initially it is for example,
we were having answering in
other languages
its like Kannada.
Yeah ok. Tamil
and there were very few.
Tamil was quite a number.
But then now it is only Hindi and English. Yeah.
But anyway it was a big
I start regretting later.
For was the it was a correct thing that was done. Yeah.
Because I have English being an international language,
that should have been. True.
But your statement is correct.
Generally, IIT students
don't require that
English language course. Except the
Except the back. Backwards. Backwards.
For them could be a special course. Yeah,
for them it is it is given.
Very true that's very true. We had very good lecturer.
That's true.
Because for those students,
I have also taught chemistry in a
for 1 year for a. I see. 2 year like that.
And professional English is something
which is possibly will be important.
For the IIT students. That's true.
Because IIT Kanpur introduced this.
My son in law was the person who started.
I see. Professional English course there.
I see. Professor Dhande
was the director,
he wanted my son in law who is a
professional English lecturer,
to start a professional English course. I see.
And he it has been running now.
The past 9, 8, 10 years now.
I see to reconnect myself to IIT Madras,
I had one proposal
which I am going to talk to the Rural Department
that I already told them about it.
And I started a course on entrepreneurship
Yes. when I was in Bombay
and the Government of India had said
that it is impossible for the government to provide
jobs for all the unemployed people.
So, entrepreneurship should come in a big way.
People should be as a self employed and become
small scale entrepreneurs
gradually they can become bigger entrepreneurs and all that.
So, I was taken as a member of the National Entrepreneurship Board
and then we talked about innovation, entrepreneurship and so on.
I designed the course there.
So, when I left NITIE and came back to Madras,
I was adviser to a number of universities here.
So, I initiated entrepreneurship course
and innovation courses. I myself
in order to show an example,
I invited a machine
called the non-electric manually operated closed washing machine.
It became a success
and the Government of India choose mine among 10 projects
giving me a grant on that also
and I thought I should also discuss with the Rural
Department in IIT Madras
to take it forward.
In fact,
out of 7 billion population in the world,
hardly 2 billion have got access to the electrical machines.
The remaining 5 billion do it by hand
including the developing countries Africa etc.
There were attempts in the last 60 70 years
to develop a non-electric machine,
they tried the cycle attach drum and all that
all of them are commercial failures
because they are trying to imitate the electrical machine
and its not possible to do.
So, I thought it differently,
did some lateral thinking
brought a reciprocating motion
to mimic the hand washing of clothes.
It was successful I have distributed villages and all that.
So, I am of thinking reconnecting myself to IIT
through this project
which can be profitably taken up by IIT Madras
because the demand will be phenomenal all over the world.
So, this is my while present this diagram to you
and if you like to do that.
Simulator you were talking of. Yes.
Sim Clone now it has something to do with
satellite this one all that
or. No not satellite.
It was done in IIT Madras in 1982
in my department.
So, what I did was,
I wrote a computer programme
to simulate the decisions which are taken
before during and after a cyclone.
I see.
Then I got the data from the
Directorate of Town Planning
from Madras, we had
data for the last more than 60 70 years.
Oh I see.
I collected that and built it into this one
and the district collectors who were trained for 3 days on this one
they felt it was very useful
and they gave some examples of that.
When the computer said there is a lot of a
heavy cyclone lot of water stagnatic and all that
some villages are marooned,
the district collector said we want a helicopter
to survey the computer said no helicopter no helicopter. Oh I see.
So, in a final session they said your computer is not responding.
I said at that time there was no helicopter base in Madras
nearest one was Cochin or Hyderabad.
Yo did not know it.
So, if you have done this mistake in real life
it have been very bad.
So, they appreciated that.
Similarly many things were simulated in the Sim Clone
and one observer for the Sim Clone
Dr. Southern he came from Australia.
He is a senior technical officer
at World Meteorological Organisation.
He happened to pass by he attended my
seminar workshop.
Then he said finally
he got a report
about this Sim Clone
in the World Meteorological Organisation.
It is a two page report
where he said
nobody has done this type of operational simulator.
I congratulate IIT Madras for having taken to this subject
and he gave a small donation a few dollars
to encourage one of the students to do research
further research in this area.
It was very interesting.
I can pass on the write up to you
about the World Meteorological Organisation.
And subsequently it gained a lot of interest
I was presenting this paper in USA
and in the International Society for Emergency Management.
Based on this
I was made the Asian vice president
of the International Society for Emergency Management
to spread it across in this area.
And subsequently
I went to myself under research scholar
where I ask given an assignment in Bhopal,
Madhya Pradesh on Gandhi Sagar Dam.
So, I went there and did a simulated model for that
and showed that if they dued a simulator
for their flood forecasting and routing
they will save nearly
nearly about 18 to 20 crores of electricity in those days.
Because you can stock more water
for the same risk which they are taking
it got reported extensively in the Times of India and so on.
I still feel this has to be taken very seriously
by our National Disaster Management authorities.
I am trying to give it to them.
In fact, Tata consulted service is very interested in this.
They said can you
train a group of our executives
we would like to do this project for Government of India
because every disaster
reduces the wealth of a nation.
Naturally. What ever development part of development it is,
Exactly. is arrested because of this. Exactly.
And I. So, I did what is called
a computer simulated for flood coasting
flood forecasting and routing.
Recently there was a the big cyclone here the Vardha.
Yeah. So, I wrote a article
in the Times of India 2 days later
on how this model could have been used
to forecast the cyclone earlier.
You could have prevented most of the restriction and all that.
How can you prevent?
By forecasting you get 6 to 8 hours
advance warning that is coming.
These are called golden hours golden period. Right.
During that time you take decisions on people etc.
These golden hours.
But I don't think with there was
a lot of human this one,
but we had only
lot of trees for all days. No no no there were several deaths.
At least I as far as I know
There were 60 to 70 deaths.
Near the. In Chennai and suburbs and all that. I see I see. Yes yeah.
Those those things can be avoided. Avoided.
I see. That the warning you get even cyclone
normally because of the radar
and and the satellite communication
today you can get clear 3 hours warning
you know where is the cyclone going to strike. Right.
With the plus or minus 100 feet also.
So, that 3 hours
you can take you can transport the population. That is correct that's correct.
Similarly, for flood.
No no cyclone shelters were. Yes.
Granted by Government of India. Yes yes. It was built. Yes yes.
I don't know whether they still exist.
I can tell you anecdote about this.
When I gave the training on Sim Clone for the district collectors,
they found most of the shelters
were being used for other purposes
and none of the people use the shelter.
In fact, some of the fisher folk on the coast
refused to go away
when the cyclone warning came
because they say you have got some cows and calfs
that's a property when you come back it will be lost and all that.
Yeah. So, the College of Engineering Guindy did a research
came out of the red ball with the stem
if the cyclone velocity goes up beyond about
35 miles per hour or so,
it will break and the red ball will be distributed
and people run away.
But what had happened was
when the red ball was exposed people broke it and took it away.
It was not there.
So, I told the Engineering College researchers, look
you are good engineers,
but you forgot to take care of the
social aspects and the humanitarian aspects.
People's behaviour during emergency
is very different from the normal behaviour.
I see. In a cinema theatre exit when there is a fire
everyone tries to rush and
they would not allow people to other people to rush through also.
There is a that.
So, that small door is not enough for emergency.
So, the behaviour of people during emergency as we studied
and built in the design of our
structures like cyclone shelters and so on. I see I see.
That 's where in the social sciences engineering come together
they have to interact together
for design.
So, lot of lessons we learned from Sim Clone
which was very much appreciated
when I present this paper in USA,
they said this type of operator simulator we have not yet designed
and they were very interested in that and I
recently also I represent a paper in Denver, Colorado
on Sim Clone.
Along with a training tool called didactic simulation
which I have developed.
For training executives a new one
which I think very soon I will be
publishing about this also.
But IIT Madras gave me a lot of
facilities and motivation
for me to choose whatever research project I liked
and this freedom
is I think one of my greatest lessons
we have learnt from IIT Madras.
Yeah that's correct that's correct.
Nice. It should continue and that is continuing. Yes,
that's how I choose the Sim Clone project
they let me go they said do go about it. Yeah.
So, thank you Professor Ramani.
Thank you thank you so much. Yeah.
I really enjoyed talking to you. Thank you.
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Prof. C.S. Swamy in conversation with Prof. B. Viswanathan
I would like to know, where you are born?
When you are born and about your schooling?
Ok, I was born in 1941
in a small village called Kuthanoor,
where the only...the Goddess Saraswathi's
temple is there in India.
This is in in the in the erstwhile Tanjore district.
But my father was living in a village
called Nachiyar Kovil, this is very near to Kumbakonam.
I studied all my school education in Nachiyar Kovil.
And then, from that I...went to Saint Joseph’s College, Trichy,
I did the M. Sc. up to that M. Sc.
I did in Saint Joseph’s College, Trichy. And then.
Then the Ph. D. in IIT. Yeah, yeah
See, the Saint Joseph’s College,
were you staying in a hostel or in? Yeah,
that is the...in those days, there were two hostels,
Clive’s Hostel and New Hostel.
Yes, yes. Clive’s Hostel is famous, and I was living in a room
called 93 because, 93 is traditionally
all my family members have lived there. I see.
My...my uncle is a Professor in Saint Joseph’s College,
he also studied in Saint Joseph’s College. Nice.
So, that is...the how, we came...and my brother also studied. Yeah.
In Saint Joseph’s in...he stayed in the same room,
I also stayed in the same room. Yeah,
now I...I want to share with you something,
since he told about Saint Joseph’s College.
Now, he joined the IIT Madras as a research scholar
in 1964, and since then,
I have almost treated him as an younger brother,
and I have never called him by his name,
as just now Kumaran mentioned,
he was known as B. V., than B. Viswanathan,
even for students and colleagues and others,
and he mentioned about Saint Joseph’s College.
And then in '65, this is an anecdote,
I was going on...I was on my way to Palani
along with my wife and small daughter 2 years
and then on this...day before I had to leave Trichy,
I was staying very near Saint Joseph’s College,
I entered Saint Joseph’s College's compound
and it was Christmas time. I was just walking
and there was reflection of sunlight
on the second floor or so, some labs,
but then I thought it was some light burning
in some place, and I just showed
and then commented to my wife,
"I think that must be the Chemistry library or
Chemistry Department."
And then I didnt see that in front of me,
two fathers were coming,
a one of them happened to be the Principal,
Father Casimir, and another was an American guest,
another father, who had come for the Christmas,
and immediately, Professor Casimir suddenly said,
"You were pointing out there,
are you somebody connected with this college?
Then, I told him, "No,
but one of our very good students who works in my...
our laboratory Viswanathan has studied here,
and so I was just telling my wife...it may be."
Then, you know it was surprising
he said, "Please wait for two minutes,"
he just walked up to the fathers lodge,
left that Am...guest there,
asked somebody to provide him the keys
for the Chemistry Department.
He walked with me family,
opened all the labs,
opened the library, and said,
"This is a place where B. Viswanathan used to
spend his time reading, reading,
till I come and tell him go home and sleep,
go to the room and sleep." He used to
study for a long time and all.
I can never forget two things:
one, about the impression he had
created at Saint Joseph’s College.
Next, a head of an institution,
just for the sake of a guest
who was walking in the compound,
opening the department. I mean he felt so
proud of his department, so proud of his
college, somebody was talking about it.
And if I remember right, Father Casimir was a
classmate of Professor Kuriacose,
one of my colleagues in Loyola College
here in Nungambakkam,
and later I think he became the Archbishop of Mylapore.
So, I don’t know whether he still there,
he was a Chemistry. Yeah,
then he was an Archbishop and he used
to come to IIT for walking in the morning.
And he will definitely drop in in my house. Right,
You were a campus resident? Yes, at that time
at that time I have become a faculty member. Yeah.
So, therefore, I was in campus resident.
You were in wardens quarters? No, no I was in...D
now...old Canara Bank, D-2 Oh, I see...I see, oh you were in that Adyar Avenue
Adyar Avenue, yeah, you were
most of the time, you were in the hostel.
So, you first of course, as a student
stayed in the Cauvery Hostel
and then I think as a warden,
you must have stayed in several hostels. Yeah, yeah nearly 30 years
I was spending in hostels. Yeah,
that’s why you have been a Chairman Council of Wardens. Yes,
all...all the post.
Ok, now I just want to go back to the remembrance.
So when you joined in 1964,
you were along with three other research scholars,
do you remember? Yeah yeah, Swaminathan and Kannan.
No, no
I think now I will try to correct you.
Swaminathan and Jain.
Jain is one year senior to me. Oh, I see oh.
Kannan...Kannan is my classmate, I mean. Oh.
Joined in the same year. I see.
See, Jain is senior to me. When did he join then?
He joined in few months . '63, '63 December,
I joined in '64, July. Yeah yeah yeah yeah, I see oh, then Udupa?
Udupa also...he is senior to me. I see.
By few months. Oh Kannan, Swaminathan.
Yes. And and I think the...
those who did M. Sc., that is Santhanam and then
Venkappayya became research scholars. All of them are juniors to me.
They they joined after some time. Now,
Professor Viswanathan, when he started his research work,
I think 3 or 4 of us, including Professor Sastry,
Head of the Department, V. Srinivasan, myself
we had only one lab, because we didn't have much space,
And then I assisted him in building up the Adsorption Laboratory.
I was not...I had not built a...a unit, adsorption unit
when I did my Ph. D.
So, that too on a slotted angle frame
it was a lot of difficulty,
and then myself and Professor V. Srinivasan,
use our experience of working with
a glass blowing torch.
So, in fact, we had to make position joints and all that,
and the whole frame when we made,
we don’t have even a photograph of that now,
and we had to put wooden pieces behind,
that too deal wood, that’s all we could get,
not even teak wood.
So, on that we had to mount the burettes and all the
bulbs and everything we used to do it.
That was the first unit.
And then when the department moved
to the new building, Applied Chemistry Building,
that unit was also shifted.
Of course, it does not exist anymore,
we shifted, and if we used for several years later also.
Now, B. V., you have done work in lots of areas.
Now first and foremost, I would like you to remember,
you said about the research scholars Kannan,
Jain and others all of them.
Do you remember that,
you must have joined after that gas plant explosion took place? Yes.
You are not aware of that one ok,
but you were there when the liquid nitrogen plant came? Yeah, yeah.
So you are very much there when the liquid nitrogen plant came. Because I...because I was the first operator of that unit.
Yeah yeah yeah yeah I mean we used it
in fact. In fact I remember, we...the cancer hospital,
it was...in way back in 1964-65,
they wanted to do some experiments
with the cells, cancer cells,
and so they didn't want to
first take the liquid nitrogen there,
they have brought that thing and then
we provided a liquid nitrogen,
and they did the experiments right in our lab.
And then next time onwards,
we told them I will spare you
a Dewar flask, and they used to...
they started experiments. That is that,
doctor is no more, I think
that Muthulakshmi’s son or somebody Yes. Like that.
He was the first medical officer in the Cancer Institute
which is in the...the...Adyar.
Not in the present place.
Now, you said about the Ph. D. programme,
so you were registered with Professor Sastry and
V. Srinivasan. V. Srinivasan
and you remember I think after
the adsorption laboratory was set up,
you must have done one pore size,
a pore volume measurement, that means,
going from very low pressure to the
atmospheric pressure. How many hours
would you have taken to complete the experiment?
Initially, it was taking 2 or 3 days.
2 or 3 days to complete an exp... So continuously, because the...
it is...the temperature has to be maintained
by pouring liquid nitrogen, there is no
temperature control and all that.
So, therefore, we...three or four days
maybe sometimes even a week.
Because a... One week completely, you have
to keep...keep awake.
See the resins had to be taken once in two hours,
three hours, till the...once the equilibrium is obtained.
Fortunately, we had a liquid nitrogen plant,
there was no problem,
but then you know we had to work day and night
taking readings, when it becomes
constraint you would take.
And those readings had to be,
sort of filled up in an equation and finally,
the pores are volume distribution had
pore size distribution,
pore...calculation had be done.
And, let me tell you that
he developed a mathematical method,
for the calculation of pore size distribution
and it was published in Journal of Catalysis, am I right? Yes.
So, so experimental one is something.
So, he felt that its good also to do some theoretical work,
and he started his, this one at that same time,
to...a...do that calculation also.
I think you must have had a very good background in Mathematics.
Yeah, I did not do I...I had a background in mathematics,
actually I wanted to do Mathematics,
but in my family, my both brothers are Mathematicians,
therefore, they forced me to take Chemistry.
Oh, I see. That is how I came to Chemistry,
but I had some flair for Mathematics.
Oh that is how you continued your this...
Ok now, so, what I see, the...the thing you have provided,
now I just want to ask you, about various aspects of
studies you have done in the last 50 years, I would say 50 years
because you already completed more than 50 years.
Now, very...very first thing was on adsorption,
and, even when you were working as a research scholar,
we had one more person who joined as a research scholar,
Mister...a person from CECRI, I forget his name, Rajagopalan.
S. R. Rajagopalan. S. R. Rajagopalan.
Yeah, yes I am sorry...this I told you.
Now, there was one Mr. S. R. Rajagopalan
who joined as a research scholar.
If I remember right, it is a unique case
at least in IIT Madras, that Mr. Rajagopalan
was only a Bachelor’s Degree and that too not only that,
he was a Bachelors Degree in Natural Science.
Botany, Zoology or something like that.
But then he was directly registered for a Ph. D.,
and then he secured his Ph. D. in IIT Madras.
Not only that, later, he was a joint guide
from students in IIT Madras for Ph. D.,
along with I think, T. V. Ramakrishna and,
he was taken from Karaikudi CSIR laboratory,
all the way to the National Aeronautical Laboratory
and he retired from there. Yes.
And his wife was also a scientist there. Yes, Sir.
Now, can you tell me where Mr. Rajagopalan is? He is...he is now in Bangalore,
settled down in Bangalore, his wife is Indira Rajagopalan. I know.
The both of them live there,
but they don’t have any issues.
So he, but his sister in law has a son,
so he is living with his son...sister in law's son.
I see. In Bangalore,
I met him a few...few months back.
He must be nearing 90. He is 90...not 90,
he is 83...85 or 86. Yeah, he is elder to me, I know 85-86.
He is 90...1960, so now, 27 years, so, 87.
87 oh yes. Now, he was a...I mean,
I had also some collaboration with him,
but unfortunately we did not publish any work,
I had met him several times in National Aeronautical Laboratory.
In fact, we wanted to bring him as a Director
with the SPIC Science Foundation to the electrochemistry vision
that Parthasarathy wanted to replace,
but then he was not interested to come at that time.
Now, please tell me your work on adsorption as such,
so, can you please... Ok adsorption I...
I have done various aspects of adsorption,
as you know very well. But, on metals,
on on the pore size distribution, many...many others
even...even vapors adsorption also I have done,
isopropyl alcohol or some organic matter,
we will not go into the details.
So, therefore vapor adsorption at the time was
not known in this country. Yeah, yeah.
It was...the permanent gas adsorptions are known. Yeah.
Vapor adsorption was not known,
so, vapor adsorption, and why I did vapor adsorption is,
I afterwards I converted into catalytic reactions. Yeah.
So, therefore, catalytic reactions adsorption is important.
so, the...in that way, I went to the adsorption of the vapors. Yeah.
Then we we built up some microbalance and all those things. Yeah.
And you know very well, one of the microbalances
which was originally done in this place ok.
We...we...we didn't have a com balance,
commercial balance, only quartz spring balance were there. Yeah.
So, therefore, quartz spring balance only we were
using first...first, then we purchased com balance,
then we purchased more...more than one com balance.
So, from the...in the...from the adsorption, I deviated
to, at that point of time, to do a catalysis. I see that catalytic reactions.
Yeah, but still now, even...you see...you said about the
the framework and all that, we have still the frameworks
they...they are slotted angle frame
and the adsorption units still there ok. I see, I see.
It is not used now, because people are not having that type...
because you know very well, even to take one adsorption
isotherm it is only a few points, but it will take one full day. One full day.
So, therefore, now people are...want
everything in the computer
and the results must be within few hours or few minutes, that is a Yeah.
So, therefore nobody has the patience
to use those apparatus. But it is still there. I see,
Now, in in this connection,
I wanted to mention
very...it...I can say it was interesting observation,
but you know once we were trying to
do that pore volume measurement, pore...up to the
saturation pressure, with nitrogen, on the com balance.
So, I don’t know how much time it took
maybe one day, and then something happened
very funnily. So the quartz bulb was
containing the sample, and then just as it is a
liquid hydrogen temperature, and I was
thinking that we are going to make a measurement,
and I was very much there and
suddenly, there was a disturbance,
and then the entire powder in the thing
got tilted out. And then I said, "What is this?"
"Why is it happening?" You know,
I was surprised, that the liquid nitrogen, possibly
was a nitrogen gas...was possibly contaminated
a little bit of oxygen, and this oxygen had condensed
in the form of a thin hair and these had connected
to the sides of the bulb.
And so that disturbed,
because the balance was no longer free,
and the entire thing got disturbed
and the whole powder fell down,
and I said this is very funny.
So next time I did not go through the
entire pore volume, just went through the saturation pressure,
very near...and again repeated, again it happened.
So I knew the nitrogen gas
were filled up, was possibly impure,
it was set at...
I never reported this in any...this one, but it is
an experience which I always remember.
And, you mentioned about the other balance.
We did obtain the Stanton thermobalance
unfortunately, because when the whole thing
was shifted from one building to another,
and then I don’t blame,
I don’t know whether...
I cannot blame Professor Sastry or anybody,
but then 20 years later, 20 years later,
parts of that, which were lost
were found in one of the cupboards, in the laboratory.
And it was too late
by then you know com balance, we had just
condemned it somewhere, and then I felt
so sorry about it. And I...I told this to
Professor Srinivasan just before retiring,
it was lying somewhere there,
I don’t know whether I must have told you all that.
Because this is not the only thing that we lost in this,
another was parts of the microcalorimeter,
and I think the...parts of the porosimeter,
because porosimeter we could never set it up,
the mercury...sorry porosimeter we set up at the
other one we could not set up the. Calorimeter.
Calorimeter. And you know this was something which
happened because of things when...happened
shifting and all that, and microcalorimeter
was a bit damaged also.
Have you made use of that...first mass spectrometer
which came...CIS? Yeah, yeah
I didn’t use the first mass spectrometer,
which was in the HSB, it was installed. Yeah, yeah installed mass...
I...I was responsible for installing it I...Yeah...yeah that's correct,
Then that Ramana...Then, then Ramana took over as a...
because he was working on mass spectrometer of the fragments,
but I have use...installed it and used it.
I see...of course, that was only meant for setting. Organic vapors is morely...
mostly in...in one day...and that time
we were using permanent gases and other things.
Yes. Therefore, we...we didn’t use it extensively,
but I have used it. I see, ok.
Now, somewhere you...when you became a Lecturer in 1960...
Associate Lecturer in 1968 or '67...
'69. '69 you became is it? I see.
So, I think by the time the Institute
celebrates Golden Jubilee...sorry Diamond Jubilee,
you will be celebrating your Silver Jubilee...
sorry Golden Jubilee as a faculty member.
So, Mister Kumaran, so I think we must remember,
he is going to celebrate his Golden Jubilee,
as a faculty member. Yes, yes.
As...by about...say two years' time now.
Now, let me then ask about the catalytic reactions,
you have carried out a number of catalytic reactions.
And, any reaction which you think
you could have possibly...we could have commercialized,
you could have commercialized
and possibly for some reasons, it didn’t go to that stage.
Ok, many...many things we could have commercialized.
For example, recently we did Narimanam
you might have heard about it.
Narimanam is a village in in Tanjore district,
or very near to Karaikal. The...there, they found oil.
But the oil cannot be directly used,
because the the sulphur content is 720 PPM. Oh, I see.
So it has to be refined and brought to...
for example, even today in the cities...ok, in the metropolis,
it should be 50 PPM. And in the...in the rural areas,
it can be 100 to 150 PPM. Ok that is that refined petrol.
Petrol or diesel or fuel, let us not worry about it.
So but the...what they were doing is, they were
shipping the...from Narimanam to Chennai,
refined it and then brought it back to the villages.
So, we developed a process by simply pumping the oil
through a column. We can bring down the sulphur content
from 720 to less than 150.
And then it can be sold in the rural areas there itself. I see.
Because the amount of crude oil that was
available at that time is...is not some metric...
a million metric tons, it is only few tons ok,
so therefore, the bringing it here
and refining it. Yeah, its.
And bringing it back there, it will be
unnecessarily adding the cost.
So this process...like this, this is one of them ok,
there are many processes that we have developed.
So this...this process we developed for CPCL.
Today’s CPCL, at that time MRL. Madras Refineries.
But you know very well, in this country, any...
any development that you do,
it should be also in...in...include some perks,
we cannot give any perks to them.
yeah yeah. So therefore it was not implemented,
but I...I had very good connections with the CMD of MRL,
the from the first Deenadayalu and then
subsequently all of them. Yeah, I know I know I know.
All of them were personally known to me.
So, that is one of the reasons why we did for them.
This project started in '80’s, you may be knowing
with the Sitharaman as the. Yeah.
Head of R and D. And then, we...we...even...even in
twen...2004, 2005, we were working for the Narimanam project.
I see, because I was not there. So, this is one of them.
The...the same way we have done...developed
an alumina catalyst which is having pore size.
At that time alumina, and the silica, as you know very well
as carbon is one of the coconut shell carbon is
one of the Indian famous. But it is no longer good,
because, now the Chinese are bringing
carbon 3000 square meters per gram.
Whereas, coconut, charcoal and other things
will have only 200 to 300. At that time,
I...the Indian Oil Corporation, also is...
was interested in the alumina. So we developed
an alumina which is porous alumina which
will have surface areas greater than 300 square meters.
I see. Because normally alumina will have only 150 to 200.
What, what alumina was it? It is a gamma alumina.
I see gamma alumina. Because it is a support for many of
the refining process. Yeah, yeah right right.
So, therefore, this...this was
about to be commercialized by one of the companies,
we will not name them.
So, the, but...but
somehow or other I...I P C, I mean IOCL
did not pursue it further.
But we went and manufactured this.
The same way as you know when...when we
did the work for CPCL,
the main catalyst in the refining is FCC:
Fluid Catalytic Cracking.
Now, if you take...in India itself,
we are importing FCC catalysts may...even if you
put an optimist estimate, 10000 tons per year,
10000 tons of the catalyst are being imported.
So, what we did was, we...we developed a catalyst
for FCC in our laboratory, and then I went
to a...a manufacturing company, at that time,
the manufacturing company was in. Haldia.
West Bengal...West Bengal. Haldia, I remember, I remember.
I went there, we...we developed the catalyst,
then we...we...the representative from MRL,
Mister...Doctor Meenakshi Sundaram Yeah.
and myself were returning, when we arrived here by train,
at the time they purchased that company.
The Western Company, purchased the manufacturing unit,
and destroyed it within two days.
Because they know fully well that the FCC catalyst
will be manufactured in India and they did not want, because...
This is news to me, I have. Yes, but we cannot tell this out,
how can we tell this out? Who purchased it, who...?
This is...the...the company belonged to Hindustan Lever. Oh, I see yeah.
The...the manufacturing company was
belonging to Hindustan Lever
and you know very well these are all multinationals. Yeah, yeah yeah yeah.
They will be able to manipulate everything.
Everything happened within three days.
We...we had to come from Haldia to Howrah,
Howrah to Chennai by train, by the time we arrived here
already everything is... This is news to me
I only know that the MRL was not interested. No, no no
MRL was very much... No no no MRL see the company said...
you had to order for one crore worth of catalyst. Yeah, yeah that is a.
And these people were hesitant to do it, and then that is
why I said that you should at least file patents, and
they agreed and we joined the file. Yeah, yeah we...we have
we...we...we still have the patent, three patents are there with that. Yeah yeah that’s correct, that’s correct
so. Because why they asked is the MRL, at that time
not now, at that time the capacity for FCC catalyst was 300 tonnes.
And each tonne at that time itself one lakh.
Now, we are not talking about the cost of today.
So therefore, per year, they have to buy 300...300 lakh of rupees.
So therefore, they thought, because at that time there were only
about 9 or 10 refineries, now we have 17 refineries in India.
So...and also the biggest refinery in the world itself is there in India.
The Reliance. Reliance yeah.
Ok, because they are...they are consuming about
maybe about 1500 Tons of FCC catalyst.
Anyway the above 1000. You mean, the FCC catalyst
they still use all hydro cracking and other things. No no no, this a
FCC is a...is a part of that ok. Yeah, is a part.
Yeah, once you do the FCC, then you can do hydro cracking and all those things. Yeah, right that was the...
Yes. Higher fractions
Yes. And all that higher fraction ok.
So, we have a covered about the...I am say catalytic
reactions to something which is a lot of industrial interest.
One more project which we started,
and you were very much involved in, that was the hydrogen energy.
And naturally, there was a hydrogen energy materials
science laboratory and Professor Shastry tried to
put forward, what India is capable of in doing hydrogen energy
in the world level and all that. But then,
what is the present state of this hydrogen energy
thing in India and in the world, as such? Ok
in. And our cont... First first. Your contribution.
In the...my contribution, I will come to it later,
the...the present status of hydrogen energy in
India is very...very meager ok.
I mean, when compared to other countries.
This is because, the production is become...
from the decomposition of water ok.
The decomposition of water at the moment
in the commercial scale, not laboratory scale,
in the commercial scale if you have to take,
the efficiency is less than 10 percent,
single digit percent. If the...if...if any chemical
process you are to carry out, it should be having
at least carnot efficiency, 33 percent,
then only it will...even if you take solar cell,
the silicon solar cells is only 26 percent,
that is why they are looking for alternatives for solar cells.
So, therefore, the...the...the problem here is, the materials.
Yes. The...H2O getting decomposed...it requires 1.23 Volts,
but it will not decompose if you apply 1.23 Volts,
you have to put some more over voltage. Yeah.
So, therefore, if you put all those things,
the efficiency will come down. Yeah.
Ok...it, that is the problem. Even today,
western world is trying ok, I myself
have addressed the American Chemical Society,
number of times I was specifically invited for this,
ok. In...in...in addition, that is the...even the hydrogen storage.
Yeah. You may be knowing, in 1999,
very...you may be knowing the scientist also,
I don’t want to name him.
He is a very famous scientist from Northwestern University.
He reported a value of 67 weight percent.
And 2001, I was asked to address the American Chemical Society,
what is the status of the hydrogen
storage in...in solid state materials?
So, the...the first line I said is,
"This result is nonsense." The whole of the audience
of Americans stood up, "What is all this..."
Then, I said, "You see, in the nature,
carbon and hydrogen ratio is...if you
take the highest hydrogen containing
carbon material, is CH4."
So, 12 plus 4, 16, 16 grams can contain 4 grams.
Therefore, if I have 100 grams, it can contain only
25 for its weight percent. 67 weight
percent storage is impossible. Oh.
So, this is the...there are other evidences also,
we can say, we will not go into all of them.
The oxidation potential, reduction potential
we can use, all those things we can show.
Many ways I proved, within 5 minutes, I proved,
everybody sat down. I mean it is not to...
so now, that is one of the...that is also...today also is a problem.
Now, I will...I will tell you, because, if you take metals,
ok, we...metals is the one of the ways where hydrogen
can be stored, even in IIT in Mechanical Engineering,
in Chemistry, in Physics, all the places have metals
or inter metallics are used for hydrogen storage.
But the in the case of the metals,
If you have one metal atom,
one hydrogen alone can be stored.
Ok, it is not a stoichiometry,
it is the...the vacant space that is available.
Yeah, yeah yeah. So therefore, if I have iron, 55 grams,
we will store only one gram.
So 100 grams of iron will
store two grams only.
So, even if you take a...a
very...unless always the atomic weight
of the metal is going to be 10,
then you can, 10-1-1 therefore, 110 percent.
So, that is why magnesium is storing...
Yeah, that’s why. More storing more.
So, you should not immediately say
all metals will store more.
Whereas, carbon will store up to 25 weight percent,
but we can make only one residual valency.
Yeah. The other two-three...three has to be connected to other three carbons,
only the surface carbon alone, one have a one residual valency,
that will store 25 by 4, 36.25,
that is the original DOE standards,
they expected only six percent storage.
In carbon? Carbon.
Whatever may the type of carbon?
Any...any type of carbon, you can...you
technically and scientifically, you can achieve six percent
I see. Storage, but we have not yet achieved that.
Naturally, naturally. That is a different situation.
So, therefore, it...even with hydrogen...hydrogen production,
and hydrogen storage is a fertile field of research even today.
I see. And if...not only fertile field of research it\,
is as a very...very many things can be done in that.
No no, you don’t talk about the metals and alloys,
inter metallics in it, but just a porous material like
a zeolite or a very, can that at least be used Yeah, yeah there...that’s the that MOF,
you might have heard about it, Metal Organic Framework. Yeah,
metal organic. which which is having very high porosity,
see where hydrogen storage can be done
to whatever extent you want,
but the material must be recyclable at least
10 to 20000 cycles. Right.
Then only it will...is economical.
For example, you have a petrol tank,
tank is there therefore, you can go on filling it up.
In the same way if I have a...it is...it is a tank.
It takes the hydrogen and gives at the tank.
So it should be capable of taking any number of cycles.
At least for an automobile applications, or
for mobile applications, the cycling must be at least
thousand times, if possibly it must be 10...tens of thousands.
Now, these materials will not stand with that,
it will be one or two times only.
Then, how is it they are talking of running automobiles on hydrogen energy or Yeah,
that is what...the...the hydrogen
hydrogen can be stored in cylinder, various ways. Yeah.
So, therefore, that...but that is a weight penalty.
Weight penalty. Yes.
So, So, you have to...if you are using a cylinder,
even now today you can use. Yeah, yeah
Point is, whatever they are claiming that
they are using hydrogen energy,
that is all just not by hydride
basis or anything like that, it is only by cylinder No no no no directly they are not
directly they are not using hydrogen, because
you carry, you carry in a automobile, a cylinder,
it is equivalent to carrying a bomb, bomb in a vehicle. bomb
So, they might be carrying the hydride
hydride storage vessels. Yes
So, we should be, I mean is there any limit
to the size of the hydride? Yeah, yes it is all...it...
it the...the...the whole of the automobile
configuration itself has to be changed. I see.
We...we also did another thing, ok, I don’t want to tell this here,
we...we tried to generate hydrogen in situ in a car. I see.
The same method ok, decomposing water,
but not by electrolysis, because in the...in a car,
I cannot do electrolysis. Yeah.
So, it is a chemical reaction,
we will not go into the details of the chemical reaction.
We...we tried this and we try...drove the car,
I myself drove the car to Tirupati,
from Chennai ok, but only thing is in a route and in a time
when there will be no traffic. Because it is...if it explodes it...
it will be very dangerous. Then I wanted to
demonstrate this car in IIT.
At that time Ananth was the Director
and he knew about this development.
So he wanted me to bring the car and do it.
So, we brought it and put it very near to the CLT
and then started preparing it, it exploded.
It exploded. Yes.
I see. I will tell you what is that happened ok.
So, therefore, the the whole Maruthi car became nothing ok,
anyway we will not talk about it. I see, but it was a run for...
No no no it was preparing to run. No no I am telling you said you ran it
No no after that...after that, after this explosion,
we found out why...why it has happened and all those things,
then I drove the car from a Chennai to Hyderabad. I see.
These are all done for a company which is
associated with the...the previous Chief Minister of Andhra Pradesh.
So, we will not name him and all those things,
Jagan Mohan Reddy’s father.
No but what is the present situation there?
That chemical method is possible still, but it is dangerous. Ok.
So now, the...the...was the Institute,
IIT, was it anyway financially compensating for the No no no this was done by
the uncle of the...Jagan Mohan Reddy’s father.
I see no no, but they paid for all this? Yeah, yeah they paid for all of this,
even the car was paid by by them. But you were paid for it?
No no no. For doing the research.
I was...I was...I was only, I was only helping them. I see I see ok
and something...something which is very interesting,
now you have also worked on hydrate batteries,
what is difference between hydrate batteries
and hydrogen storage, what is the difference?
Now, hydrate batteries is a...is a
because you know very well, the combustion value of
hydrogen is very high, compared to any other thing. So, yeah, so that.
So, therefore, hydrate batteries is better, but
today, hydrate batteries are not so famous,
lithium ion batteries alone is...for example,
in this year’s Nobel Prize and last year’s Nobel Prize
should have gone to Goodenough, because he was the man
who invented the lithium ion battery, ok.
Who? But, unfortunately for some reason,
we will not go into all of the reason,
He published a paper in March...end of March...March 27th
on a lithium ion battery, it it made a stir in the whole world.
I see. Ok, but unfortunately what happened is, that paper,
it is not yet published, so, I don’t want to discuss that,
but still...I...we can discuss that science,
there is a flaw in that paper.
So that was pointed out by a by a scientist in...from MIT,
there...it is still...it is not out because,
Nobel Prize was being considered,
therefore, this...this objection
comes, the...Goodenough's name will go.
So, therefore, even now, even now
it is not yet published. I see, I see.
Now let me just digress
for a minute from the research.
Now, you have guided a large number of students,
now, with how many are you still in contact,
can you name some of them? Nearly 90 percent.
Oh. I have...I have guided...guided, I will not say,
I have been associated ok. Ok.
About more than 120 students.
Not only in Chemistry, but in other Departments also. Yeah,
the whole Institute, and also some other Institute,
because you know very well...that yeah, so,
not only in Chennai ok, where...wherever the
even...even up to Tezpur in one corner,
they are...in the in the western corner, up to Gujarat. Ok.
So. Now, any of your students,
research students, or those with whom you are associated,
have received the Distinguished
Alumnus Award of the Institute?
I don’t remember, I don’t keep track of it,
but the... Who is it that has now...heading the laboratory of
Goodenough? Oh...Mandiram oh ok ok.
Has Mandiram received it? Yes, yes.
Mandiram received it ok, I think we will check
in the Distinguished Alumnus Award. Yeah, yeah he received it.
He received it. you have worked with Palanisamy?
Yes. Is Palanisamy also in some way...no, Mandiram only
Mandiram only, yes what about that DuPont fellow
M...M. A. Subramanian. M. A. Subramanian did not
get the alumni... No, I think he did not get it,
he is a Ph. D. from our college, ok.
Now, let me just...this is about the students,
and you say you remember most of the students.
Now, you did some work for some company in USA,
Columbia. Columbian Chemicals.
Yeah, was it industry... Ok. collaborations project?
I will, I will just tell you the story of the Columbian Chemicals.
I went to United States up to that year I did not
even step into the any of the western countries,
I only stayed in India, ok.
I stepped into the United States only after 2000,
after my retirement. No, but you had been to Germany and.
That is later, I mean the United States. United States ok.
So, when I went to you know Columbian Chemicals,
at that time one of my student was in Columbian Chemicals,
Srinivas. Yeah, Srinivas yeah.
So he invited me to, at that time meeting only, the
the...the hydrogen storage address was there.
So he invited me, so I went there,
I don’t want to name the Vice President.
He said they were...they were in the business
of making carbon ok, the carbon is low ion carbon,
for tyre manufacture and other things.
At that time, the...the carbon can be made
very very value at the addition, carbon electrodes
and other things ok, we will not talk about it.
So, he threw me a challenge because
they have invested in two best institutes in the
United States and United Kingdom.
You...now itself you can imagine what
will be the names of the the institutions,
Cambridge and MIT, to make this
carbon material into value addition.
Value addition means, it should not be useful to
the low ion use, it should be
a gram of carbon must cost you
1000 dollars like that. So, he gave this project,
he came to IIT, he gave me this project in March
one year, then he said every six months
I will visit you, you...you tell me the progress.
So, by September he came, I gave them the process. I see.
At that time, that two other...two other institutions,
we will not worry about that, they could not even progress anything.
Now, was it...was IIT Madras compensated for this? No, I will tell you,
then he said, "I should give you some some reward for this."
So, he said, "I will give you 20000 dollars free."
Without any commitment, then I said, "I don’t take any money
for any...on any of these things."
So, give this 20000 dollars to our Institute. Yeah.
So, they gave the money to...to 20000 dollars to the Institute,
we...with the condition that it should be used for
research purposes of our laboratory. Same thing ok,
you...you can call it research based. So like that he was
even willing to give more, but at that time, the...
there was some restrictions. I see, I see.
These type of donations, we cannot get...certain amount only. I see,
oh it was not called the research based industrial consultancy No no no it was a gift.
Oh because what I did was, I...
that is a...that is a...
that is a different thing. Yeah, I made it...I see, ok.
Oh that’s...now that is at Columbian...because I see
quite a few things mentioned in your patents,
that it is being...the it has been patented by the company. Yes, yes.
Oh, they have patented it.
They have patented it They have made money on that one.
Now, as of now has that two Western Universities contributed? No,
but Columbian Chemicals itself has been sold to some Ok.
Taiwanese and other things. Ok.
So, it it did not get through. Ok,
Now I will go back to something else.
Now, you know that we were...
our Department was associated,
the Chemistry Department to the catalysis group
was known in most of the Western countries
I don’t say about USA, Europe and all that,
as a...as a centre for catalysis research.
Now, you know that Russians used to come, Russian groups
used to come and attend even our...
and some others, some Germany other countries also.
Oh, do you remember the visit to some of the
Germans who came to IIT Madras, Chemistry Department. Yes, I know.
During '70s, can you name, and you went
to one of them to do your Post Doctoral. Professor Block is one of them.
Yes. Professor Knozinger is one of them
and then Helmut is another...another Professor. Professor?
Helmut, from the Fritz Haber Institute
the...who is worked on the... Oh Karge...Helmut Karge.
Now, what about the...the person Janicke and Ernst.
Ernst...Ernst and... Yeah.
Now, then there are...wait a minute. Now, Professor Block,
you went to Professor Block, to spend a Post Doctoral with him,
I mean I...I think von Humboldt Fellowship.
And again I think, you worked for some time
with Max Planck fellow also.
Now, have you...you must have definitely
visited their workshops.
So the excellent workshop extending over,
so you must have possibly built also...
used the workshop for your research work and all that.
Now, you have published with Professor Block some paper? Yeah, yeah lot of papers.
But you have not I think you have mentioned only one paper or two papers. Because...
It is. But anyway for more more than five or six papers with him.
I see, but during the time when you were with Professor Block,
was the Nobel laureate. Ernst...Ernst.
Yeah. Was he also there? Ertl; Ertl.
The Nobel. Ertl...Ertl.
Correct, was he also there? He was not there at the time.
Ok. But, I know him.
Ok, now I, if I were to say that if Professor Block were to be alive,
then Professor Ertl got the Nobel Prize,
it would have been awarded to both of them together,
would you agree that? No no, not that way,
Block would have got it individually, because, Block has developed...
For example, I will tell you one thing,
just now we have an instrument, which is
costing about, we will not worry about the cost,
B. S. Murty has installed.
This technique itself was developed first,
we...we developed ok, myself and Block and others
ok, we will not name the all of them.
So, the...we were developed, but we did not succeed at the time,
that is. what was that.
The photo, Photo Induced Ionization.
Photo Induced Ionization Spectroscopy. Yes.
The same technique only now they...it is the commercially available
and B. S. Murty has invested about maybe 50-60 crores.
What for is this? It is studying the fragmentations
that are taking place inside the thing with a...with the...voltage,
high voltage. Now, how is B. S. Murty...in Metallurgical.
Yeah yeah yeah, but he is interested in in the metallic clusters
and other things so. I see I see I see so...
That is not a thing...ok because it is a laser beam,
so it is an instantaneous heat. I see.
So, therefore, you can evaporate any metal.
But then your interest was on what? On Field Ionization.
Field Ionization. That is, field ionization requires very...very high field
10 to the power of 8 volts per angstrom.
So that means, I should apply 30000 volts or 40000 volts,
40000 volts in a room if you are applying,
what a danger. So therefore, we wanted to
bring down that application of the voltage on the...
on the metal tip, this is called tip,
filament we will say...take a filament. So, therefore,
we wanted to bring down that voltage.
So we wanted to do voltage plus photons
so that it will ionize easily. I see.
The concept itself is a new thing there, at that time ok.
This was in '70. It was in '78.
'78 I see.
No, what I felt was because Ertl came...
because Ertl came later, and then Ertl and
so many joined, who were working parallelly
and they were in contact, but I felt that when Ertl got it,
he would have...Block also would have possibly... Block was, if...
if Block was...were...were to be alive, he would have got
a Nobel Prize even earlier than Ertl. I see I see,
because now...now that we talked about Nobel Prize,
have you visited in Fritz Haber Institute,
the room where the Nobel Prize... Yeah, yeah it will be a room...
Almost about this size. slightly About this size and the on the wall,
there will be photographs of that... All the Noble laureates.
Yes, there will be 20-25, in the Fritz Haber Institute itself...
itself will be a...Nobel Prize will be 20-25, and many others
who...who were very near to the Nobel Prize.
For example, you take Gerischer in this year’s ok, Block’s year,
there were...there was a talk that Gerischer and Block
both will get the Nobel Prize.
Yeah. But Gerischer was the Director and
Block was the previous Director.
I see. That rotating system existing long ago,
then Ertl became the Director, when Block died,
then Ertl became the Director. No, you have visited because he had
taken me to that room and No, I have I attended many seminars in that room.
Yeah, I see. I myself have given a seminar there.
I see I see. So, ok, going back to that, you have
spent some time in Japan also, what was your work in Japan?
In Japan, I was working...ok development
of silicons at that time ok, this is in '83, '84 ok.
Gating Technique. I see.
So, reducing the time of Gating Technique. I see, I see.
So, silicons...silicon based systems we were doing, we were measuring.
So, it is, I mean, in which this one does it come?
Does it come under materials or does it come under? It is...it is...it can be considered as materials,
at that time only the silicon single...single crystals ok,
I was using single crystals only, single crystal and technology, ok.
Single crystal is known for the centuries together,
but the technology, especially in the electrical...electronics industry,
silicon single chips were there.
now. For example, you said, they are same...same thing,
it was done...the work was done for a company and our instrument,
some...some fault was there, ok and I had only eight months time.
So, therefore, the, but the instrument
has to come from United Kingdom.
I see, I see. So, when I phoned up the company, they said
"How many hours is the flight from United Kingdom to Japan?"
We were in...in Japan in Tokyo...in Hokkaido
Hokkaido is very much away from Tokyo
ok, four or five hours flight for a thing,
but anyway we will not worry.
Then, they said, "24 hours you wait,
24 hours you spend your time
24 hours, it will be deposited to you."
So, within 24 hours, it was there on my table.
The instrument. That part.
I see part, I see.
So, let me now come to a later part,
now you were associated with the...the catalysis division,
almost somewhere the inception,
you know Professor Kuriacose
who became the Head of the Catalysis Division in 1984.
And he got...sorry, he got...he got associated with
the MRL project of '84 onwards, and he got the building,
the Kinetic Catalysis Lab, and the Catalysis Division almost
simultaneously, around '85 or '86, because the...
it was a Silver Jubilee cooperation agreement.
Now, you were involved initially, because you know when,
Professor Weitkamp, the coordinator came
and then you were involved in all that SWOT analysis
and all that finally, you know that we were not
very much consulted on the type of equipment.
What make, and what this one had to be...we wanted,
they decided everything under.
Even when we...in the
first agreement or the third IIT agreement,
when we got equipment Professor Sastry’s time.
You remember the planner on the German side have,
you met him Professor Kerber?
I didn’t meet him. Technical University...
See Professor Kerber, I don’t think made any
much visits to this place.
He had visited once,
and we have a photograph of his, and that...some organization meeting,
but then he...the Professor who have sent
was one Professor Butenuth who must have known him. Butenuth I know very well.
Yeah, but Butenuth, what was his specialization we could not make out,
he was mostly... He was Mineral Chemistry.
Mineral Chemistry, and so he could not do anything and
did not possibly...it was a misfit in Chemistry.
So, he spent his time, I felt, he felt very miserable
during that one year and he went away,
but wanted to keep in touch with two people who went
to Germany afterward, Professor Ramana and
Professor V. R. S. Rao...sorry Professor Udupa
and took them round and all that. Anyway, that
was not a very good...
Now, let’s come to the catalysis division time,
you know after Weitkamp started supplying the equipment,
one of the equipment that was supplied, I felt was a waste,
that was a hydrogen plant. And you know that room
was set up and then it was all there, what happened to that
one after he retired? It was all demolished.
Because we could not use it because it was in
semi-industrial level.
And that had to be connected
by lines to the hydrogen, into the main lab, to be used for
chromatographic purposes Yeah, but see
this was done 30 years back or 40 years before,
or in '70s around. '80...'80s '80s,
80’s so, that’s hydrogen is a safety measure, ok.
Yeah. It is a very dangerous to do such hydrogen
production inside the building, in inside an institution. Yeah.
And it is put in the...in the midst of Physics, Chemistry,
and other other things, and it was put in a very small room.
So, it is operationally...it was not...cannot be a successful thing. I know,
that’s what I am telling you, that see the supply,
I mean they decided to supply certain things which were not
of use to us which we could not put to use ok. Same...
same thing happened in the case of the first
set of equipment and all that.
Now, on behalf of the Heritage Centre,
I would like to ask you something. You know you had used,
I had use...we used to use a mechanical calculator. Facit; facit.
Facit Facit calculator. Do you have any one of them in the Chemistry still?
We don’t have a Facit calculator, but we had number of them
ok. Oh, do you know where we can get one?
We want to put it in the Heritage Museum.
So, we are asking where...who...asking people who have used it,
all the Departments have used it, I remember.
I have used it extensively. Yeah,
now for this...for the purpose of the Heritage Centre,
I want to tell, that then we were the
two who were...doing all the donkeys work,
as far as the seminars in the Chemistry Department are concerned.
Right from 1967, I think when we arranged the
Solid State Chemistry Symposium.
So we had to take care of the projector,
we had to take care of all the arrangements
and then I think it was done even when all the
resonance meetings were...I mean intercollegiate
meetings were held. I think we were the last to go out
in the evening, taking all the projectors along
with some research students and all that.
I mean I can never forget,
so, in the not... Not only...not only in the city of Madras,
when we organized Catalysis Symposium in Dhanbad
I see, there also I do not know, whether you remember
No, no. You traveled with us, we took the projector.
I see. Not a slide projector alone,
even the overhead projector from here. Oh, that was for the workshop?
Workshop for Catalysis workshop ok. Yeah because I came only for the Sindri this one,
PDIL. Ok, but...but it is in the ISM, Dhanbad.
Yeah, yeah that. Recently, I was...I was in Dhanbad, I was remembering that.
I see, I see because I went only for the, what
Sindri Organization and that was. Yeah, Sindri is different,
Sindri is. But that was....I mean the
the guest house was all horrible, in sense
lot of mosquitoes and all that, that is where we
gave the Eminent Scientist Award for the first time. Yeah, yeah.
So, Professor M. V. C. Sastri gave an address and he received the award.
Now, Professor Viswanathan is a...has also received
the Eminent Scientist Award of Catalysis Society,
in addition to several other awards which we have listed here.
So, I just want to once again take you back
to some of the joint projects that
we might have done together.
So, for example, one is the...
this thing about uh...MRL project,
another is about the work on X-ray photoelectron.
I mean is...installing, and then doing some work on the
XP...XPS things. What is the present situation about...
I think that instrument is condemned. No no no, that...that instrument is condemned,
but now we have a new instrument.
Is it now working? Is...what is? Yes yes, it is working.
I see. And we are...we are the only institution, or only centre
which were giving service free of charge to anybody
in the whole of this country, and even in the whole of the world.
I wanted to...what are the facilities available?
I have never come...visited that's the reason... For catalysis, you have everything there.
I see. In a modern...modern...all spectroscopies
and all...even we have a TEM, very...very, two angstroms you can resolve.
I see I see I see. The the best instrument is one angstrom,
but our instrument can resolve 2 angstroms.
Because we are...we going to use a catalyst and
other things which is a dirty material.
So, one angstrom instrument will be spoiled very easily,
that is why we...we...we went in for a two angstrom,
this costs you...us around 10 crores,
all put together ok, the instrument and the room and other things.
You mean, now what? It is working.
I see, I see. And it is giving service for
the whole of this country, even for IIT,
even though in IIT we have at least five microscopes,
10 microscopes. I see.
But the...ours is the most extensively used instrument.
Oh, I see, you mean electron microscopy. Electron microscopy.
Electron microscopy. Now, you know we received one
thing for gas analysis.
I am not talking about...
the what happened to the GCMS, I don’t know.
That was condemned is it, GCMS? Yeah, yeah that was condemned.
That was condemned.
Now, we used to have another you know, gas analysis.
We couldn’t use the...there was no
software available for getting the detailed data and all that.
And then, Professor Karge, the Karge sent us the
reaction unit to be used along with the
infrared spectrometer. That was also not set up with it
I think by then the...IR...IR instrument failed and... But now we have,
nowadays commercially there are various instruments,
at that time we had to get it custom made by Karge.
Yeah. But, now it is all available, it is...it is possible even now,
in our instrument. I see,
you...you have facilities for all that? Yeah yeah.
I see. It is...it is all now commercially available.
I see, now I just want to ask you about...
its...you know Professor Block, since I visited
his Institute in 1989, just a few months before
the unification. And...of course, I will not tell about
this small incident which happened when you
took us for a walk after lunch.
But then I made a comment to him the day I was leaving,
so they had said that it is a waste, that this...the East Germany
and West Germany separated.
And then I was sitting,
much later, when I went in '89, I went along with
Professor Pillai as a visiting...
And we were sitting at the front,
that gate and then I said "What a waste,
I think this wall has to come down."
We did not have a camera, we want to
take a photograph, and four months later it came down.
So in fact I have been mentioning that turn
since we would like to do a historical survey of IIT Madras,
So history has been written,
it will be a Diamond Jubilee history, which we are going to write.
The first 30 years, ends in '89,
So, our collaboration was with FRG.
So, '89 onwards it is with Germany,
the unified Germany.
And you remember in '90,
you and I were invited by Professor Knozinger
and his wife, we were guests in a
galas thing somewhere, I think I...
German Consulate had invited us for a party
in the evening, we were both guests of Professor Knozinger
do you remember that? So, Yeah.
yeah. So, Professor Block of course, had come
a few months earlier.
Now, Professor Block
because I mentioned about this wall,
he brought a piece of that wall and presented to us.
Do you have it in the...I passed it on
to you or I passed it on to the Head of the Department,
I don’t remember. No no I recently saw that...that
Where is it? I don’t know now,
but recen...I can locate it. If it is in.
In the...in the if the something with which you can keep. With...with
some...some plastic container or No no it...covered with polythene
can you please...we would like to keep it in Heritage Centre with
Professor Block’s name, if possible, a photograph of Professor Block.
Ok. So, saying that... That, I will locate.
Yeah please, because I was thinking it was in the
Head of the Department.
It was in the Head of the Department
office only, even now it may be in the Head of the Department
because since I was also Head of the...
That is what I am saying. So, therefore, I know I remember to have seen it,
recently also I saw that therefore You check, whether you have in your room,
if not. It is not in my room,
but anyway I will locate it...I will locate it. Please locate and please let us know about that one.
Now, is there something which you would like to
say about the IIT of those days,
when you joined in 1964, and IIT of today?
So, campus wise, the...see the...by way of
the contribution that IIT has made,
because you have spent 50 years
I can tell only up to...when I retired.
Now, as I can tell you, I give a hint also,
one Professor...Professor Ananth, nobody...he said,
that then...since 2000,
the amount of money IIT has been getting, is
enormous, because there is absolutely no problem
about funding. So, many organizations are funding.
So, that is why the research output has also increased,
you can do newer type of research and all that.
So, I mean, I myself telling you,
this is one of the observations that we have made,
do you have any observations you made?
But, this is not anyway I...I don’t want to come. No no personal,
no...no your personal thing you can tell.
Ananth is a well...very knowledgeable person,
but recently I have been asked by a Chinese writer
ok. Recently, recently means two or three days back,
she is trying to compare the performance of...
there is a feeling ok, there is a feeling
that the Indian Science and Technology
has come down in the last two or three years ok,
from...as to be precise, from 2014 onwards.
Has come down? Come down.
Ok. As compared to 2014, 2013...like that.
I see. And she asked, she is going to write it in nature,
this. She is...you know enlisted to write in nature.
So, she asked me...she wanted to...she wanted to get
opinion from people, she is not taking opinion only from me,
some 20 or 30 people from India.
Even Balaraman is one of them. The previous Director of...
but Balaraman declined, I even talked to him,
but he declined. He declined, I see I see.
maybe for some reason, we will not go into all the reason. Yeah.
So, the the conclusion that they...we came,
ok, it is not yet published, so I cannot say this is the conclusion,
but mostly what we are feeling here is,
the Science and Technology that is being practiced today
in India, for example, the new faculty,
let us take only IIT. Ok.
Very small segment.
The research,
I am not denying the research has to be done,
that is not a question.
But what they are doing is,
what they have done in their post-doc, or
whatever they have done in the Western World,
that is what is being practiced here. I see.
So, that is...we...that is why this science was
growing in this country, because we were
practicing what is feasible in this country.
Not only that, new things...new things New things and feasible.
Because the...the people who are directing
the research were from this soil. Yeah.
Now, the people who are directing the research is
displaced people from other places. Yeah yeah.
So, therefore, that...that...the...the, I am not denying these
are all very modern thing. For...for example,
I will tell you an example, the material that
we are now looking for, one of the material is
the oxygen reduction electrode,
it...it is a very exotic electrode ok.
If I know how oxygen is getting reduced,
I know about the life, I can tell you how long I will live,
on what day I will die. What is that? Again.
Oxygen reduction...because...that oxygen
only because we are only consuming oxygen. Yeah.
And the oxygen is combusting our food. Right.
Carbohydrate. Right.
So, therefore, oxygen has to get reduced to O2 minus
O2 Yeah, yeah.
has to get reduced to O2 minus.
This reduction reaction has to be understood.
If this reduction reaction has been understood by our scientist...saints,
that is why they were able to predict when you will
die and all those things. Right.
Now, we are not able to do that. I see I see I see.
So, therefore, the...this is an...it is a very electrochemical
reaction, that is all. Here, two electron transfer,
two...an oxygen atom. It is a four electron transfer,
but we will not go into the details.
So, therefore, this is the...the it has to...it...
is it now available electrode is platinum,
but in our body, there is no platinum.
So therefore, there is some some bio
biomolecule that is doing this.
And we should repeat...repeat that
biomolecule in a...in a material. Yeah.
So, the the material is FeN4,
it is a iron phenanthroline complex. I see.
The phenanthroline is nitrogen containing compound.
So now, four...four ligands of phenanthroline.
Therefore, with the structure of the final compound will be FeN4.
For chemists, it will be a very wonderful material,
because there is no valency, nothing is satisfied here.
So, this FeN4 is a very important material in the United States today.
Anybody who is working on FeN4,
they will be given the grant from NSF.
But we cannot afford to use that,
we...we...we, I even published a paper in 2002 or 2003.
On FeN4. I see.
Showing that it will be a very good oxidation...
oxygen reduction electrode.
This, you will ask me immediately,
even if some few students were asking when they read it,
why you did not continue?
At that time, the facilities were there,
only I can do...only theoretical calculations,
I could not do an experiment at that time. The...
so the...and even today,
we cannot afford to do those those research here,
you can publish. Yeah.
And get some name and all those things,
that is all very different,
but what is there...they...outcome for this country.
Ok, now...again I will...and...it is...see the,
I told you that we had Russian visitors and all that.
You know we were one of those who...
who got at least a catalysis laboratory.
You know, one of the Russians came and spent more than a month or two,
remember the name of that person? Ermakov.
Not Ermakov.
There was a junior scientist,
who came and worked in our lab for 1 month.
I don’t remember.
1979, you were very much there. Yeah, yeah.
I am not able to get his name.
And we...in fact, I introduced him, to nitrous oxide.
I told him...see he was interested in Catalytic Reaction
and all that and I said ok
you...we had...we had purchased all that
the various parts required for building a chromatogram.
So, I told him, you can set up a chromatogram,
and you can show the student.
Then I told him, see,
three or four students are working on nitrous oxide decomposition,
you just get used to that and he worked with them.
He was very...he was very friendly with all the students,
even went with them to part of South India and all that.
I am not able to get his name, but I will tell you,
he was the person who later patented
the oxidation of benzene to phenol, using nitrous oxide.
Now, you remember the name?
But, I know this reaction, benzene to. Yeah, yeah the...he...
the nitrous oxide was the...
he was introduced the nitrous oxide by us
in my...in our laboratory because I told him,
he asked me, "Why are you interested?"
I said one reason we are interested, is a very simple reaction.
So we can do a large number of compounds,
we can investigate and we...it tells us about the
Redox behaviour and so many other things.
Anyway, that was different, you were doing carbon monoxide oxidation,
these were the two things you were developing.
But just remember, the type of catalyst we tried,
or the type of oxides we tried,
they later received importance in materials chemistry.
For example, the cation A4 structures,
and remember you were working on the manganites,
do you remember what we lost in the manganites finally?
That was the... This.
This Nobel Prize has given in 1980s and '90s, manganites. Yeah, yeah.
What was those? Again, I forget.
That is a Perovskite Structure. Perovskite Structure,
you see the...substituted.
Yes. Same thing, cation F4.
I was doing the B-side substitution, whereas,
A side substitution, it was done
and they got the CO3 plus.
CO3 plus, I had also observed it,
but I had no way of checking it,
because I did not have X-Ray photoelectron spectrometer.
Remember, we tried to do that for the first thing with
that student Madhavan? Yes.
So, who is no more. We...we
XPS with that. Yeah, XPS of that.
We actually, even now that is a fertile field,
we looked at the satellite peaks,
not the main peak. Yeah, yeah satellite position that one
that’s what I said, you see there is...see,
do you at any time,
not that one should get a Nobel Prize or anything like that.
If one of the thing which is being
pointed out again and again is,
India has...it says it has done this thing, that thing,
it has not produced Nobel Prize.
And do you believe,
at least because you have worked on various thing,
that then we might have reached a stage,
reached a stage where it was
going to fetch a Nobel Prize, but we did not pursue it.
Ok ok in the in the next few years, we will be...I mean.
No, no it at least even earlier, we had worked on areas,
Yeah, but. Later, we let...we left it out.
Nobel Prize is a very different question Sir,
we will not discuss that one ok. No no not
like that, for not...Nobel
that we got it or not,
because at that level of research,
we have been doing, Yes yes.
That’s exactly what I am asking. Definitely, definitely.
The exactly what I am...just like you said that
somebody in US said that, 67 percent of storage
and you proved that it is nonsense.
Same way, when somebody said a nickel compound
was showing superconductivity,
just like the copper compound, and then,
only two people in the whole world has reported it.
And then I asked one of the co-workers and one of the students,
one of the Professors who reported,
do you agree with that one?
He said, "Whether I agree or not,
my Professor and another Professor,
they claim they have observed it...superconductivity."
I don’t want to name,
it was a nickel compound, corresponding,
not the copper compound, nickel compound
and the...one of the scientist of course, an Indian
another was an American scientist.
So, what I am telling is...that such things do happen.
And I know of times when you were very depressed,
say when you were about to publish something,
or about...and somebody else has done something,
or, you are not able to do something,
because of lack of facilities and all that.
And I think over time you must have got over all those feelings.
So, what is your programme, for the next next
two or three years?
Ok, next to two or three years,
because you may be knowing, that at the moment,
my worry is about the Indian Science, that’s all ok.
That is why we are conducting a course called the Orientation Programme.
Orientation Programme is meant for research scholars,
even the DST has many times ridiculed me,
what you can teach to a Ph. D. student?
Teach. Ok, Ph. D. students will... Students current...
the course were conducting now? Yeah yeah
it is the seventh...18th year.
Continuously 18 years, I have conducted.
Which department?
It is the Catalysis Division, a Catalysis Centre.
Oh, I see, oh I see this catalysis...no.
That is. I not...you are now a guest faculty while coming, so, I thought you were
only doing that. No no no it is a...it is Catalysis Centre,
it was done...done on behalf of the Chemistry Department
from 1999 onwards.
I see. This is the 18th year.
We will, at the at the time I used...because the fund is required,
because the research scholars have to be brought from various places,
Some 30-40 research scholars will be brought here,
kept here for 3 weeks or 4 weeks,
and they will be given an orientation to research in catalysis.
I see. And we have trained about 600 to 700 people
in this 17 courses,
out of which, 300 people are top class research scholars
in the world today, and they are all with...with the
in communication with me,
day to day not a...a stray communication.
I mean... They come on...online and discuss with me,
"I...we...I...I we are doing this research, whether it is...
can you give me some suggestion about that", and all that.
This is spread internationally. Yes
and that is one thing, in...in...it it is not
international because it DST Funding,
because we...we cannot sponsor the candidates from abroad.
No no not candidates the...
The students. The candidates who are trained are abroad now. Yeah
That...the...the students have gone abroad,
because they, Yeah, yeah. They did Ph. D. and all that.
Now, even...even foreign students have attended this course.
When they applied for this course,
I used to tell the, "We will take care of your local expenses."
That is. "But we can we cannot give you the travel allowance,
you manage."
So, they spent from their pocket and attended this course.
Is...from Germany, from USA, from...from Australia.
I see. Is it publicized in any of this?
I do not know, the, but it is even now
it...in the next course is 18th course, its starting on December...
the November 27th.
I see I see I see.
DST has...very well recognized this now.
As a matter of fact, wherever DST exhibits something,
they will talk about this course only,
first...the first to projection will be on this course only.
Oh, I see, I did not know that, I see, anyway I am not.
Anyway the...leave it alone.
So, therefore, this is one thing.
Second thing is, we have...we have now launched
at least about...this year itself, that is be...2017,
we are...we are in the 4th online course.
Nothing is required,
all that you required is a computer that is all.
I see, online.
This is for educating people.
This is the second thing, we are doing.
Third thing that...I...we are doing is,
since I have some facilities to write,
I...I write a many books, even now there is a book,
if I tell you, you will be surprised
that title itself, 'Carbon Dioxide to Chemicals and Fuels'
Right. Because carbon dioxide is a waste, that is what people think.
But, if I were to take the carbon dioxide
and can convert it to...to chemicals and fuels,
I am closing that cycle.
But it is going to be a technology,
30 years from now, or 20 years from now,
but I have written a book now, on that.
And one of the leading publishers of the world,
look...looking at the title, they approved it, nothing else.
Not...they did not even ask me to give a...
usually they ask two or three chapters.
Yeah. They...the...the top manager told,
"No no, we don’t want any chapter from you."
Oh. "We are agreeing to publish it,
so, you complete the book and send it to us."
I see ok, now, I know that right from the inception,
up to now, you are connected with the
Catalysis Society of India,
in various capacities, and it...it’s continuing.
Now, what will be the future, of course,
you are leaving it in good hands and going.
You must have conducted a lot of QIP programmes,
and FIP programmes and all that.
So as you say, we are now doing this Orientation Programme
which is...now you also were involved
some time...about the Library Science, in the sense
before all this...the present thing of talking about the...
what is that...citation index and what is the number?
Impact number. Impact factor. Yeah, I know
all that even before that...that American who was
bringing out that Current Contents, what is his name?
The person who started all this
along with Arunachalam. Yeah, yeah Arunachalam.
One person, I forget the name of that,
he visited IIT once. Yeah, yeah.
So, he visited and you had arranged a lecture.
He just now passed away.
I see I see. two...one...one year back.
Great man, some starting with G or something like that.
Yeah. I am forgetting the name, and you had written some
ways of classification and all that,
you have written some books also, I mean...articles on that.
Now what is your...that number?
Citation...Impact Factor.
Impact Factor, what is your impact factor?
Not impact factor, that number,
the number of times the paper is quoted,
so, what. That is what is the...for the journal, it is Impact Factor,
for the individual, it is Citation Index.
Now? Now, it is also there Google...Google is doing that.
No no no not I am not talking of this
impact factor, the citation index,
but then from that you derive another thing.
There are many other term terms that can. No, no
that is you; I saw. Immediacy index is one of them.
How, how immediacy is your research is there.
So, in then...for example, if I publish a paper today,
the next two years, whether it is seen...seen or not.
I see, I see that also is there. That is...yeah yeah yeah,
this is called immediacy index,
there are many index indices. No no, but you have
you...other day I was asking you you told me something your
number. There are many many many.
No no more than 70, what is that one?
What is the number, number of papers have been quoted
so many times. Yeah, yeah.
What is that number known as?
What is that you...
That is. You are talking of the impact, I am not talking of the impact factor.
Impact factor is for the journals.
Journal. So, it is not citation index,
based on the citation index,
you evaluate a number,
that is yours its coming to 70 or something like, that
you are telling scholastic.
I don’t remember now.
We got Professor C. N. R. Rao’s 300.
Yeah, yeah I remember that.
What is that number? What is that number known as?
How is it your also forget the number...
that’s a number which everybody quotes,
Because for Bhatnagar Award, you should have at least 25.
Yeah, yeah. So, I remember that one,
that’s why I am asking here.
And if you are more...you were
fellow of more than two Indian academies, the,
I think the Government will give some 50000, 15000 rupees or so,
I think, possibly DST give, I don’t remember.
So, that is something many people would like to...
are trying to get.
Mister Kumaran, I wanted to ask some questions to...
Kumaran Sathasivam: Yes, Sir. Sir, can I ask you about
Kumaran: what IIT’s reputation was in '64 when you joined it,
Kumaran: as an M. Sc. graduate, how did you...
Kumaran: what was your perception of IIT at that point because
Kumaran: in that student circle,
Kumaran: was it well known as an excellent institute as...? Oh, no no.
Kumaran: And how did you apply and what happened? Yes,
Kumaran: I just wanted to know about that, Sir. I applied because
I knew one of the Professors in Madras University at that time,
he recommended me to join IIT,
because he came and taught me in M. Sc. in Saint Joseph’s.
So, B. S Thyagarajan, he only introduced me to IIT.
So, when I...when I came, I...
I have seen all the convocations in this Institute. Yes.
From '64 onwards.
Oh very good, very good. Ok
so, the...anyway that is a different thing.
Yes. So, at that time, IIT,
especially IIT Madras ok,
I will talk about IIT Madras because IIT Madras is one of the top IITs,
there is no doubt about that ok.
So, at that time, IIT Madras was not very well known.
So, therefore, those of us who are the first few batches,
we have to make an advertisement for IIT Madras.
I have made some...that attempt also.
For example, in the rural areas at that time,
the JEE was not even known.
Kumaran: Yes. The, the village from which I am coming,
it is a very...very knowledgeable village,
but the...they did not know the JEE.
In the...in the...the first batch or second batch,
the M. Sc. is the...B. Tech. students,
at least five or six of them are because I told them to write the JEE.
Kumaran: Ok. That is how the IIT glo...glory comes,
I am not see claiming that I did the whole thing ok,
that is how the IIT glory of...IIT Madras glory came up.
The...the because at that time, we were coming from villages,
and...villagers were not even knowing that there is an IIT.
And they even if they know IIT,
they did not know how to apply for JEE
and...write the JEE
because JEE system, even today,
because even now I am...is somewhere connected with the JEE
ok. JEE is not with IIT now,
the main paper, it is with the Government
Secondary Education Board,
but anyway we will not talk about all those things.
So, therefore, JEE is a different...
different cup of tea for all...all the Indians,
that must be very...very clearly known to us.
So, therefore, the people from the villages,
they did not know about JEE at that time.
Now it is known...that...that is because now it is 50 years.
Kumaran: Yes. So, at that time the JEE was not even known.
In spite of the fact, my village is one of the well...well...
well exposed to other...other areas.
Kumaran: And...and you chose to join a relatively new institution in
Kumaran: in favour of a larger organization. When, I...
when I...when I joined, Kumaran: Yes.
There was no room, only cement bags were there.
Kumaran: I see. I see.
I...I...I do not know whether you remember,
I sat in a room, where in a...in a...in a...one side of the room
only cement bags will be there.
Kumaran: I see. With the cement.
Kumaran: This...this was BSB Sir?
No no...HS...HSB.
You. No he...by the time we joined, we had moved to HSB. HSB right.
He have had moved to HSB. Right.
Now, they...the...the things were getting added,
there was no German equipment I think,
one by one we started getting by other fundings.
But our laboratory was
better equipped than mess...most of the laboratories
and I...I hope you will not mistake me,
if I raise one of his hands for your sake.
See this finger,
his interest in the laboratory,
one day he started a motor,
and then the motor was not starting.
And he didn't see that the switch is on
and he started rotating,
his...his finger got...under got cut.
And then it was collected...it was thrown,
it was collected put in liquid nitrogen,
he was rushed to the railway hospital.
But, unfortunately, by that time I think it was
it had decom...I mean the...it has started deteriorating.
So, they could not...
I mean I always remember you know,
a part of that finger is gone,
it happened in the HSB laboratory. So...so
Kumaran: So, what was the. Thank you.
Kumaran: Can, I can I just add a few more questions, Sir? Please ask.
Kumaran: What was the procedure for selection to a Ph. D.
Kumaran: you joined the Ph. D. programme when you came to IIT first
Kumaran: and who are the staff members who,
Kumaran: I mean the faculty members who interviewed you and.
At that time. Kumaran: I mean Director.
At that time, the three stalwarts in the Chemistry...or four stalwarts
M. V. C. Sastri, J. C. Kuriacose,
V. Srinivasan and C. N. Pillai, Aravamudan
these are the five people who grilled us.
Really grilled us. And also we have this examination,
at that time also the same type of examination,
and the examination is...used to be very very tough.
Actually, even now I remember Kuriacose to...
Did you have viva voce or?
Viva...not viva voce, written examination only.
Oh, you had a written exam I see...I see.
Five papers we have to write. Alright.
So to. No no for joining the IIT thing
you need not... No, no.
Joining was only interview. Joining only...joining was interview only.
Yeah. Not written exam.
Yeah. Right.
But after joining, the qualification
for...for example, Kuriacose paper,
none of us pay...passed, only I passed.
Ok. All the three of us, three of us we were there in the...in that batch,
only I passed, that too because I took a challenge with him.
Kumaran: And about your wardenship, you said you had a
Kumaran: term as warden,
Kumaran: how many years and which hostels you were in?
So, ok I...I spent first as a Assistant Warden,
Cauvery, Krishna, then as warden in Ganga Hostel,
then as Chairman Counsil of Wardens.
So, therefore, nearly 30 years I was associated with... Kumaran: Ok. The hostels.
You were also connected with Gymkhana.
Yeah, yeah Gymkhana Cultural Advisor,
Weaker Section Advisor,
many...many roles. No, you were,
I think in this sports day this one,
his photograph has been put in the...
on the...in our...the portico.
I...because. You can. I was Dean Students also.
Dean Students...I Dean Students I think he was.
Kumaran: Right. Be in that so.
I occupied all positions in this Institute. Right, right.
Is there that person there? So...
Kumaran: Yes, yeah.
Is there anything you want to ask him you are.
And B. V., Some of your...some of the books
that you have written, and if you have a spare copy,
at least general books, not exactly on subject
things that we would very much like to have it in the Heritage Centre
and we don’t mind buying it also,
he is prepared to buy it,
but then if you can give it Yes. As a...this one
because we are collecting, you are an alumnus,
so, as an alumni, we would like to collect all those books.
Spoken to you and then elicited lot of information
and I think, if there was another chance,
I would have spent a few more hours with you talking about this.
Thank you very much.
Sir, thank you. Thank you, thank you very much for giving me this opportunity.
- Contribute
to the Centre -
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Material
Prof. N. Rajagopalan and Prof. R. Radhakrishnan in conversation with Prof. Kalyana Raman (Retd. faculty, Dept. of Civil Engineering)
We are here today
to record the Oral History Programme
with the Heritage Centre
with Professor R. Radhakrishnan
and Professor N. Rajagopalan
from the Civil Engineering Department.
I am Kalyanaraman from also from Civil Engineering Department,
very thankful to you for joining us this afternoon sir.
Professor Radhakrishnan you are one of the
earliest faculty to join the institute way back.
So, will you please give a brief outline
of how you joined the institute,
what your background was prior to joining the institute.
At the time of your joining
there was an interview. Yes.
Can you, can you briefly play out
what was - how you were interviewed
in those days for a faculty? To be very frank
first time I was interviewed in Vice Chancellor's chamber, it's called, A. L. Mudaliar was the Vice Chancellor
he was the Chairman of the Board of Governors.
so the meeting was held in the interview was held in
Madras University, Vice Chancellor's chamber they call it.
I think first time I was not selected,
second round second time only I was selected;
I don’t know the reason for that one.
Second time also I applied
the main reason for that one was
at that time Madras University had 70 percent and above was
First Class, no I got 74.5. I was put in Second Class.
So, I remember quite remember asked me
I got this one class called First Class, do you know?
Yes, sir I don’t know what happened,
then we reshuffled our degrees,
they made it 60 percent First Class
and we were given First Class degree.
So, second time when I came for an interview,
I was First Class MSc,
this 1st rank, of course, that is always there
they don’t bother about 1st rank,
they want First Class at that time.
So, I was not selected first time,
second time I was selected. So, who were all the
who were all there in the committee selection committee? Committee at the time
A. L. Mudaliar was Chairman here. Professor -
Doesn’t matter if you don’t remember.
I remember But
were they Chief Engineer Madras ...
Chief - everybody was there I remember.
Where it says tested at that time more for your
teaching abilities or research abilities when they interviewed? No, only teaching.
Only teaching ability. Research abilities.
It was a time when as I just interviewed
Abraham was the Chief Engineer of Tamil Nadu
and A. L. Mudaliar was the Chairman.
See as far I am concerned
I joined institute in 61, December.
At this at that time Civil Engineering faculty
strength was 7. I was the 8th faculty to join.
And, earlier I was in Irrigation Research Station
Pundi as a PWD staff member.
Back in 59 when the institute was inaugurated
at CLRI campus, I was a
student leader of College of Engineering, Guindy.
So, I was invited for it ... as a student
when we see such a big function, was elated
and saying that I should become a member of IIT,
that was my motivation.
And, I didn’t know about how teaching is
going to be or how research is going to be
or industry going to be.
But with all that that A. L. Mudaliar was there,
Nehru was there to inaugurate - Jawaharlal Nehru
was there - Pandit Nehru, for I was motivated to come.
From Pundi I applied here
and I was only B.Tech degree holder
that is a BE degree holder,
BE Honours was the degree
for me because after certain about 66.56 percent
you are getting a degree called BE Honours of
the then Madras University College of Engineering Guindy,
as one of the rank holders and therefore,
I was called in for interview.
The interview was at CLRI
because there is nothing here, interview was CLRI.
The Director Sengupto was the Chairman,
A. L. Mudaliar could not come on that day
and it was even for the Associate Lecturer's
position the Chairman of the Interview Committee
was the Chairman of the Board of Governors.
And, the expert member I do remember
happens to be my own professor at
College of Engineering, Guindy.
It was Professor V. Kalyanaraman
and I was pleasantly surprised to see
a known figure on that panel.
And I was the first Associate Lecturer to be selected
at college at IIT Madras
and afterwards, within 6 months from that day,
the rank of Associate Lecturer was made temporary.
Therefore, we had only 3 Associate Lecturers
in the institute as permanent Associate Lecturers.
And I was the one amongst them
and the first amongst them,
I joined the department there were only 8, 7 faculties;
I joined as 8th and I was the youngest
of the faculty members of there.
And, afterwards the department developed
and my motivation I have already told you
because of that meeting,
that made me come to this place.
So, you have said you attended the
inaugural programme of the institute
in you know where was this held? At CLRI campus.
So. It is between A. C. College and CLRI,
no in CLRI and A. C. College. A. C.
Yes, it's a big area open,
even now there is an auditorium there.
At that place a big pandal was erected
and Pandit Nehru was there to inaugurate.
As a student member
I was invited for that and I went there.
Do you remember anything that
professor you know Nehru said on that day of inauguration
anything that I was too so young for that to understand
that what he is talking about. Ok.
But, he was talking about
see originally he made one mention -
College of Engineering, Guindy, was
to be upgraded to IIT,
that was the first intention.
When the IIT system was thought of
when it is a, as it was announced that meeting, Kamaraj wanted
two good institutes in Madras itself,
that is at that time Madras, Chennai
that’s Tamil Nadu, Chennai and all were not there.
Two good institute he said that
we would have one more institute
and that will be institute of technology that’s how
we got IIT Chennai separately,
otherwise it would have been
College of Engineering upgraded to - I mean IIT Madras.
But, it was decided to have that
and that's - that was mentioned in the meeting,
when, it was I think it is the Education Minister
it is C. Subramaniam I suppose.
I don’t remember the name of that time,
but the main aim is to have one more institute.
And, I think as you said Kamaraj was
one main force behind IIT Madras coming.
Coming to Chennai. Chennai.
Not only that actually the this thing
the reason is not that correct
in the government wanted to have the administration control.
Central government. Yes, no the state government.
Administration control they wanted to have it
which the Central government refused. Central government.
So, IIT was started, otherwise I would have gone to
Guindy Engineering College. Ok.
That is the main reason. Ok.
Now, the both of you did not have a PhD
Yes, yes. when you joined IIT Madras.
Thing things have changed a lot
since then, now things are very different. Yes.
Can you go through your joining this department,
how you had to qualify yourself
to be in a PhD, both of you got
PhD. Actually, it is really interesting
I got only BE degree - BE Honours degree -
when I joined, then I found that
all of theirs faculty members are MSc
and I wanted to qualify myself for MSc
and ask for leave just after 1 year.
And, that time they said we are going to start M.Tech
and you, you can do part time M.Tech,
that was the assurance given by the
then Director and Registrar Natarajan,
I met him personally
and both the Director and Registrar, they said
why don’t you do it here?
Because, to get an admission at Anna University,
that is then College of Engineering, Guindy,
for a postgraduate programme
the admission is based on so many reservations,
it's very difficult.
I was fortunate to get one;
therefore, I was pleading that I should get that,
the second is at that time it is 18 months
programme for a postgraduate at
College of Engineering, Guindy.
Whereas, an IIT started the programme
started straight away with 2 years;
that means, I will be studying for 6 more months
they said for part time, it will take 3 years for you,
for was one and a half years
I was going to be delayed, if the degree is that.
I pleaded and they said, no, we cannot send
a faculty member of IIT
to College of Engineering, Guindy. Right.
If at all, you have to resign.
I didn’t feel like resigning and therefore,
I stayed back for I was the first
part-time M.Tech student of IIT Chennai
and IIT Madras.
In Madras IIT Madras.
Even today it is IIT Madras Chennai only.
IIT Madras Civil Engineering
Department or IIT Madras itself Civil Engineering.
IIT Madras Civil Engineering Department. Ok.
It was the ... then the Head of the Department
was also one C. G. Swaminathan
was the Head of the Department,
when I was interviewed.
By the time I joined in December
He left. C. G. Swaminathan has left
and Professor K. A. Shankaran was the
man in charge of the department,
he was an Assistant Professor.
And it was in 62 Professor Varghese joined
Professor - May, June of - Varghese.
For the Structural Engineering,
whether to start a Postgraduate in
Structural Engineering was in question.
Because, Professor Rouvé was the professor in hydraulics
and therefore, they were sure to have
a Postgraduate in Hydraulics
and Water Resource, there was only Hydraulic Engineering,
but when Varghese joined the as
Head of the Department they started structures also.
It was a - it was a tough time for me
whether to join Hydraulics as well as or structures.
Since I was in Irrigation Research Station Pundi earlier,
Rouvé wanted me to join Hydraulics
whereas, I wanted to stay in Structural Engineering.
So, after lot of discussions I came to
Structural Engineering, that was a
part-time program for an M.Tech.
At that time PhD programs were not there
at all in the institute
because there are not enough research
Degree holders in the institute as faculty members.
If I remember correct, total faculty
strength was less than 100,
all accommodated in Building Sciences
Block - only less than 100.
I would say that Civil Engineering had 8,
Mechanical Engineering may have about 11 to 12
and that’s all the department.
And, all ... not many
I don’t say even 1 or 2 had PhD in that;
only in Science Departments
Professor M.V.C. Sastry, Professor Rama Sastry
and Mathematics professor at that time S. K. Srinivisan
and earlier team is. Adiga.
Das, Das in this case. They were the persons
who were having PhD degrees.
Hence, there was no question of research
being started at that age.
This should be guided by - Guided
There is no research guidance facility,
though the ideas were there.
If I can talk a little more on that,
it was that the period was stated
to be by Professor Sengupto,
let us stabilize education,
B.Tech degree education goes
and development of the institute;
that was his intentions of having
the first few years' activities in IIT Madras.
Yeah. Hence, the research was such
was started little later
when A. Ramchandran took over as the Director.
We will come to the research also.
So, you went on finish your M Tech.
yeah and then went on to - when did you do your PhD?
After M.Tech, I stayed for 3 years as lecturer here,
then I was...there is a Institute Scholarship
for DAAD: Scholarship for faculty members
and it is for 1 year, extendable for one more year,
2 years. In fact, very many faculty member at that time
Yeah went on to do
Went on to do PhD in this thing.
Not PhD, they were...the contract
or the agreement signed between
the German government and Indian government
is that they will finish that PhD only in India
and they will get the degree only
in Indian Institute of Technology
and they can have their training in Germany.
Accordingly, all the members
who went there were going there for 1 year
a little more than that,
but I was keen in doing a PhD there.
Therefore, I didn’t go through this institute route.
Secondly, amongst the Civil Engineering staff,
I was the junior most.
Hence, the chances of getting into that
group is also, was very difficult.
For I went through the Government of India’s
scholarship scheme, wherein there were
at least 10 candidates were selected per year
to sent, to be sent to Germany.
I was one selected in that group
and therefore, I went to Germany in 1970, 69 and 70.
And, I decided to do PhD.
There was also some difficulty because,
the department has given me leave for 1 year
as usual for then, 6 months extra
then I said I would prefer to go on - leave on -
Loss of pay. - loss of pay,
but the institute said no, as a policy
we should go leave with pay for 18 months.
I went there and then I used the influence
of the professor at Germany
to get it extended for next 6 months they gave me,
the institute also paid me for the second year.
When I applied for the third year institute,
then Registrar C. V. Sethunathan
sent a very very strong reply,
very strong for me as an youngster.
Said that you better return to the India immediately
or get out to this institute immediately,
you choose between these two;
such was the wordings of that letter.
I showed him to my then professor at Germany
he...see, he with all this experience
for me it was not a - rather than a threat,
for him it was enjoyable joke.
And, he said don’t bother we will make you -
He talked to the German consulate
and also the German Ministry
and he said that I have decided to
offer him a PhD here, Dr-Ing here;
please tell me the procedure
by which we can get it done.
They said the procedure is, as far as
we are concerned, we have no problem.
But, we have problem from the Indian government.
The Indian government again refused to say
that you cannot get a degree from Germany,
you should get a degree only from India.
And therefore, they said extended
the scholarship for 6 more months,
2 years and 6 months, please advise him
to go back to India for
doing to completing his research.
And I was keen in getting a German degree,
I told my German professor
if that is the case I would resign from IIT Chennai.
Then also a letter came saying that
if you were to resign, you have to pay back the
salaries paid to you for two and half years.
It's a very huge sum for me
and therefore, as in a dilemma
once again the professor,
German professor came into discussions.
He wrote to the Indian government that ... the ...
if the main aim of IIT is to,
for development of academic activities,
I should see that this letter is withdrawn.
And, it was the Director then A. Ramachandran
who said yes the letter is withdrawn
and I was asked to do that.
But, Government of India
refused to give me scholarship,
because they said that as per the
agreement between two ministries,
we are not supposed to give
for more than two and half years.
For the - I was supported by the Department of
Civil Engineering or Structural Engineering
in Stuttgart University.
And they gave me assistantship for 6 months
and I completed in 3 years
and one of the shortest period, completed in 3 years.
And also last 2 months because the
viva voce or what we call it as viva voce
there they say, that’s called a mündliche Prüfung mündliche
Prüfung and that was delayed
and they said for the 2 months
professor himself gave his support for me,
personal support from his consultancy assignment
for completed and then he came back to me.
He was also offering me a job in India
in his company which was
having a work at Calcutta, cable-stayed bridge;
he can say that you can go and join there.
I said no, the institute has done me so much,
I would not like to leave the institute
and came back and joined institute.
And at that time there was a small back home
the Director Ramachandran left the institute
and Professor Sampath was holding incharge
and the director's position was not defend,
interviews were held, number of selections were made.
And afterwards the final, of course,
I was not interviewed,
but selected in the - based on my application.
I joined here - the - the date of joining
the rank of Assistant Professor declared,
but I was not allowed to join as Assistant Professor
because I left the institute as lecturer.
I was join - asked to this - join as lecturer
then I got the Assistant Professor
and then the actual research for activity
as that is the PhD research then the,
my own research is only from that onwards.
Sir how about you sir, you also joined with an MS
and then you got a PhD.
That was in engineering, Structural Engineering
College of Engineering, Guindy.
So, after that, here as so the registration was there.
Of course, we have few people
after - Dr. Professor Varghese joined the department.
So, one PhD must be there - they guided
and we registered for PhD.
So, first batch of students,
staff members sent to Germany.
I was one among them,
but it was only for 1 year.
See, I have, we have to get trained, do the work
and then complete it,
come here and complete that's the condition.
So, of course, I was having a family
So, I didn’t want to continue there forever.
So, 1 year it was extend for another 3 months,
I was in Brunswick.
After 4 months language course in small village
where the population was about 1000,
400 people and 600 cows.
Then I went back to ... Brunswick,
where my, it was Brunswick institute was
connected with this Structural Engineering Department:
Professor Eibl, Professor Kordina, all those things were there.
So, I was there doing my research work there.
I completed almost except the major part of it
the small or the other one I have finished.
And I came back with all my things in 19-
I think I went in - even forgot - 67 I went,
69 April I came back,
but it took some time for me
to complete because that model
I have to make a real model
and then very small this one
and then it is a big shell
actually it is a mathematical cum
this one Experimental life.
Experimental. Both very difficult
Actually I forgot ... you didn’t mention the name of the
institute where you do PhD.
I did my PhD in the University of Stuttgart. Stuttgart.
Institute (unclear) University of Stuttgart
So, I was from Brunswick I came there.
It took quite some time for me to complete the work.
Of course, after that
the ... those days two Germans must be from abroad,
not in IIT one Indian one foreign now.
At that time both exams was abroad
and then the viva will be conducted in India by two examiners.
So, one examiner was very quick
in sending his report then 2, 3 months
I got my the other examiner took just 2 years.
2 years again Yes.
ok. That is only a luck,
there can’t, before that everybody
who went after me to Germany got their doctorates
and got their promotions, everything else - I was -
Ok. The - the - flavor of the department
or the constitute of the department
that you joined when you mentioned that
there were only 7 faculties.
7 - 8 - 8 faculty along including And - and - from you are including.
And in the early stages you know
how was the department?
You know today the department is probably about 50 you know. Yes.
Yeah. So, how was the department in those days?
See, there's only a Civil Engineering Department as a whole,
now, we have Structural Engineering Wing,
Water Resources Wing etcetera,
there are only Civil Engineering Department.
Those 8 consisted of 2 - 1 person from Hydraulics,
1 Assistant Engineer who was working as
Assistant Engineer in this institute
was also teaching here leading to
I mean Estimation and such subjects, he is doing that.
There is no recognized person in Environmental Engineering,
actually 1 Hydraulics man was there - Panduranga Rao,
in Survey 1 man was there, Nagaraja was there. Nagaraja.
Structures, friend Radhakrishnan was there
and Dr. D he was again not Dr. Victor,
he was Mr. Victor Johnson, he was there
and so, from Soil Mechanics
and Highways put together
was under the control of Professor Shankaran Shankaran.
that was. This was the earliest of the faculty
members in the department Yeah.
as we know it. Actually I was - I joined
the department 63, 68. Yes.
And, I think you were a faculty
at that time and even I was a faculty at that time,
I do remember that I have
taught you one course on Structural Analysis. Yes.
Myself, I mean I taught
and I could remember your face
as well as M. S. Venugopal.
Yes. Who happened to do his PhD along with me
and you two were the quote unquote Yeah.
"Bright students of the class"
which I was, very well remembering that.
Now, there was good, very good this one,
I had very good innings in
Civil Engineering Department no doubt about it.
To give a small example,
last year I was going - I was in Bangalore,
my son is in Bangalore.
I was in Bangalore, I was going in Namma rail,
Namma Metro I was just travelling
with first batch Sujith Chandra,
who was a board member
and railway board member. Railway board member.
He came to me and said he was very much
attached to me, I don't know the reason,
he said we will go sir
he was in charge of structural of
you know. No, I would very easily
say. Namma Metro.
So, we were going.
So, we were going the train
myself, Sujith Chandra, and V. R. Nagaraja;
the man who I helped him in survey in those days,
because he has some language problem,
he is a Karnataka man;
suddenly one student came,
sir do you remember me?
So, suddenly if you ask me how do I remember.
Sir, I was your student in IIT Civil Engineering,
my name is so and so, thank you very much.
So, he was so happy and then at the end
you know what he did,
sir I should like to take a selfie with you.
Good, thank you very much.
I think many many faculties from the institute,
they do; this just happen you know
people suddenly happen. Train.
Suddenly at train. See actually there are only 16 students
in the first batch,
for everybody there are only 8 faculties and 16 students.
So, staff ratio is 1 is to 2
and you are so, closely associated
and my advantage is
my age group was very near to them.
Therefore, I was to be fact
one of the students who finished his
BA Honours in Mathematics,
when I was intermediate
he was my classmate intermediate.
He finished his BA Honours
and come and joined BE B.Tech here,
by then I joined as a faculty.
Therefore that was the intimacy of the student faculty,
it is very interesting for us.
In fact, even the campus was very small I remember.
Very small. Very very small
I remember that you know the
that the hostel that came into existence.
Cauvery and Krishna. Cauvery and Krishna.
Tapti hostel. No.
And Tapti came later.
Yeah, when I joined.
Professor Shankaran was the warden of the hostel.
Oh. You know when I joined
Professor Shankaran was the warden of the hostel.
No, it was - The ... actually, in those days
how was the department academic structure
different from later? For example,
as you were mentioning that - that -
the Director was concentrating on building an institute,
so, very many of you were involved in
building the departments of the institute,
can you share your experiences in that ...
No, I was 61 I joined
67 I was sent to present abroad.
In the meantime, the 6 years, the department was
very well coming up, only in teaching.
There was no absolutely research is fully
Yes but teaching labs were coming up
Yeah. So, you were involved in
that kind of - Yes exactly already I was doing that
So (unclear) I have been to actually
Materials, Metallurgy. Applied Mechanics
So, concrete lab was there
and the other small laboratories (unclear)
because, there's no space.
The Building that was Science Department
only bottom was there
so one more information, Kalyan
that is, at that time
Civil Engineering was not assured of the aid
from the German government.
That’s why other departments had the laboratories developed
by the German assistants,
where Civil Engineering only
Hydraulic section had the German aid.
We didn’t have it.
For the development of the
concrete laboratory as well as -
it was not Structures Laboratory -
Concrete Laboratory with facilities
to test success was developed by indigenous things
and all for it was really slow in its development.
I remember even when I was a student,
we did not have a Structures Lab. It came up subsequently.
73 only we gained Structures Laboratory,
at that time it is in 1970 the German aid for the
Structural Engineering was assured. Yeah.
And that time only Professor
Plähn was the person. Ok.
And, Karl Kordina from the Brunswick,
where Professor Radhakrishnan was there,
was the coordinator from that place
and Plähn did the development of the laboratory here.
Can you just for example,
from, let us go a long distance
from the time you joined to the time
the department you left,
can you just - still - what were the major changes
that you yourself experienced in the process?
That is I - 61 I joined 93 I left,
32 years. I was only in the Civil Engineering Department.
So, the department in 1961 was not even there. Yes.
And when you went in 1992
you had the Structures Lab?
Structures And probably even
had the Dynamics Lab, is also already Yes
So, there is a change -
so. I had my students in Dynamics only.
For PhD. 2 students they did.
Actually one military man was there
I think, Ambodkare Right
I met him even last time, Mysore,
he is there, still. Both father and son
took degree on same day: he took his PhD,
his son took his B.Tech another day. Bachelor.
So, this development was very good
very fast at that time we can say
because, the early stage always we go very fast,
beginning. So, I can say I was very lucky also
you can say, you can say fortunate also,
but one thing was, I couldn't digest
still is the delay of my PhD, terrific it was.
I had the worst part of it that time,
it took nearly 4 years.
Submission to get the degree, nearly-
There is - there are students today
who take 6 years to finish PhD. No
No, no no 4 years from the date of submission
to award the degrees. Award, understand.
That is the period.
No, but total - total time was how much?
Total time I joined the middle 61, I joined.
PhD programme, you joined the PhD programme,
but Germany - from that time
to From that time, 67 to 72, 5 years only.
Because 72, I got my degree. 5 years.
So 5 years No, no, many people took it in
two, two and half years.
I understand but at those days -
Yes. But there is a - The thing is no the reason is I tell you, very frank,
there is nothing wrong in the -
it depends upon whom the thesis -
When thesis goes to. Yes.
That is the main thing.
So, one man sends it within few months,
other man sends in few years
So that- that helps a lot
Your experience in terms of
how you changed the department See,
changed - the department, see...
Can I go? As I joined, I was also
put in charge of the Concrete Laboratory.
The Concrete Laboratory was the
smallest material testing laboratory.
Therefore, we... whatever equipment
available in India, we were able to procure.
Money was not a problem for (unclear)
Only thing is, getting it abroad for major equipments
Sorry. we had difficulties.
In 70s whereas, in Hydraulics and Water Resources,
the German aid was there.
And, hence the ... a full fledged Hydraulics
Engineering Laboratory was built up,
as the one is the workshop based like that,
wave flumes came up
and lot of experimental facilities
with German equipment coming in was developed.
Whereas, the other laboratories
it took time. There was one senior faculty
who came from Madras University,
there College of Engineering Coimbatore,
Professor Dr. Mr. Muttayya who was very much active
in getting models or the specimens for Geology. Yeah.
And with his personal influence
he could develop the Geology Laboratory.
That is a - We used that. I remember still
the Geology course where we have - Geology Laboratory
with his personal influence
and he was more motivated as a teacher -
he had also written a book on that -
and he developed the Geology Laboratory.
It may may not be bad to talk about Dr. Muttayya
because I remember him as a student,
he is one who took lot of interest in Geology area.
But, he was also active on the campus
you know, in those days
there used to be a canteen.
He was in charge of the student
canteen. No, he started a cooperative society.
Cooperative store. Cooperative society.
So in fact, we as students used to
be able to buy books and things like that
from the cooperative store,
we used to get that book. No no,
Muttayya, he has at least - he has
at least about 20 years of experience
before he joined here,
at teaching at Coimbatore Institute.
And, in engineering institute
of recently good repute,
I mean a reasonably good repute.
Therefore, he knows the necessities of the students.
And he was well poised with the students
and he started a cooperative society for books,
and stationeries and all,
which the students found it very comfortable.
And, he was monitoring it
and he used to sit late in the evening
in the cooperative canteen
no, cooperative stores Stores.
and it was so economical for the students
to get the things from there,
one cheap and available in our campus itself.
In fact, those notebooks used to Thus.
have the IIT Madras printed on top of it.
Among the students in the city
it was a prestige to carry those notebooks.
So, I remember some of my friends from the other colleges
they had to come and buy the notebooks
from the cooperative store and take it out
and flaunt their institute,
I remember that. It was in - that was also in Building Sciences Block.
No, no, the -
Is laid outside - ...is in that. That was very interesting.
The Structural Engineering section -
I was talking about Hydraulics
and Geology Laboratory developed.
So also, Soil Mechanics which was
partly Highways and Soil Mechanics.
Since, the staff member or the person
who was in charge of Soil Mechanics
came from Central Road Research Institute;
therefore, the development started
in the Highways section first,
because Road Research Institute -
he was Professor Shankaran was
so much involved in the Road Research.
Therefore, the bitumen Highways Laboratory started
and it developed more than Soil Mechanics Laboratory.
Therefore, the next laboratory which came in
in a bigger way was Highways Laboratory.
Of course, Concrete Laboratory was developed
reasonably well because the equipments
available more in Chennai itself.
Therefore, we could purchase that.
That was the development of survey.
In 70, when the grant came
from the German government
for the Civil Engineering Laboratory,
Professor Plähn was nominated
or was sent to this place by Professor Karl Kordina
to take - to be in charge in the laboratory.
And, reasonably good coordination
with Professor Plähn, Professor Varghese.
Professor Varghese did not interfere in that
and he was just allowing Plähn to develop the laboratory.
Then Professor P. S. Rao who joined in 1967,
who was put in charge of that laboratory
from the Indian side. He had already got experience.
He had already got the experience from the Munich laboratory
where he did his PhD and he knows all the facilities
which is Munich laboratory.
Therefore, he wanted to have a replica of the
Munich University Laboratory, University of Munich Laboratory
under Professor Rüsch, that was one.
And, Professor Leonhardt came to India
on a - for a specific conference in Coimbatore,
he visited Madras and stayed about 5 days here.
And therefore, his input and also gave the facilities of
the development of laboratory as -
give - as done in Autograph Institute in Stuttgart,
for this particular laboratory was having the input from Karl
Kordina’s laboratory at Brunswick,
Professor Rüsch's ideas from Munich
and Professor Leonhardt’s ideas from Stuttgart.
But the model, the physical layout of the laboratory
is from that of Brunswick and it was done that way.
There was also an idea
whether to have a strong floor which is a -
which is a self straining system, but that was dropped out
and then we had a strong floor on the top
and supported by walls in the basement.
So, the basement could be used
for storing or some other purpose.
That’s the first laboratory.
Meanwhile, we had developed indigenously
structural testing systems in the
Concrete Laboratory itself which were then moved
to the Structural Engineering Laboratory.
And the advantage we had was
Professor T. P. Ganeshan and Dr. T. P. Ganeshan who was also
only Mr. T. P. Ganeshan didn’t do his doctorate,
he came from Highways Research Station at Chennai at Guindy.
And Highways Research Station in Tamil Nadu
was one of the - not in Tamil Nadu - in India,
it was the best Highways Research Station is in Tamil Nadu.
They had a big workshop also
and a workshop which can be thread
diameter say about 40 mm.
Diameter rod can be threaded easily.
We got it threaded at that place
and brought it here for making a self-straining frame
which would have not been possible,
if had not been T. P. Ganeshan there
and HRS available for us now.
These are all certain advantages with recruiting faculty who are
already in service somewhere.
Professor Ganeshan, Dr. Ganeshan moved
from HRS, therefore, we had the facilities of HRS also available
not with great difficulty, but easily we could get that now.
For things moved positively
in way in Structural Engineering Department with that laboratory
came into existence in 1973 March I suppose.
May I just interfere? I remember, some of the colleagues
subsequently when I joined the department,
I remember some of the colleagues
of my age had physically worked in
the laboratory setting up and it is just you know.
There That I was telling you.
Professor Aravindan. There are three associate lectures.
Aravindan, B. V. Subramanyam And Achyutha.
Achyutha - they were all - they worked up to midnight,
not even early morning hours for pouring concrete,
checking the concrete because the thickness of the floor,
the accuracy with which the holes
where the rods have to be threaded in
and it is - it should carry a 10 tons force.
Therefore, the accuracy was very important
and it was not given to the mechanics of the floor.
It was given to the faculty members
and therefore, faculty members were
working along with the mechanics.
Yeah, remember. I was given time morning 4 to 8,
I ask Varghese why you are using
I know you get up very early in the morning.
So, you come at 3 o’clock and be here.
So, faculty members physically present Present
ensured that the labs came you know.
That’s so, its a heavy duty floor.
So, today it's not - it's not - imaginable because we have sufficient
infrastructure outside to make sure
construction goes on, faculty members
give the specification. They are not involved,
but things were different at that time. yeah
They are physically involved.
See then only it will come up, no doubt about it.
You mentioned that the department was
initially education based. Yes.
Undergraduate education-based. Yes.
Obviously, today the institute is very different.
In fact, we have a larger number of
you know, postgraduate students
in the institute than the undergraduate students.
So, the flavor of the institute has changed.
Can you just, you know, kind of see how
or mention how you saw the changes
from a Undergraduate Teaching Laboratory
to the Postgraduate Research Institution
over these years in your experience? Because basically it's a -
we start only teaching first
Anything - First of all, I remember when I graduated,
I did not even consider doing
postgraduate study here. Yeah.
I went abroad and that was because
that was just not a research culture in 1968 at that time.
And, as you are mentioning
there were not very many faculty members also
with the PhD and over the years
things have changed. Yes.
So, I just want you to carry on. But
the moment we joined the institute
first, actually Professor Sengupto
had asked, in one of the many of the interviews asked me.
What were you doing other than teaching, first question.
I said, I am teaching, this course is going on
Other than teaching what are you doing?
We have to keep our mouth shut
because there is - no facility was there here.
Even we were not registered for PhD at that time.
Then I told Professor Varghese, somewhere
next time I go and tell my registered for PhD
So, with the great difficulty we registered for PhD.
Now, we can say we registered, I registered long back
because wherever 10 years we can say.
After that only I got my degree.
So, that was - starting always trouble will be there.
So, at least at that time there was - if nothing else -
there was at least an intent Yes.
that the faculty should get Should get into a -
Research Programme in greater size. Yes.
No no. So, the research was the background of the
institute director has given at instance. I will interfere here
When A. Ramachandran took over as the Director,
he said that mandate for anybody
for getting a promotion is a PhD qualification.
That’s what I was talking - And that was the starting point.
Every - every faculty was interested in registering for PhD.
Of course, we did really have good PhDs
in Science and this departments.
In Engineering Department, specifically in Civil Engineering,
not many PhDs there in 60s and 70s.
If I make a name in 60 when I come out of the college
I know only one doctorate in Civil Engineering
was Professor S. R. Srinivasan
of College of Engineering in Guindy. Correct.
And that was the only doctorate the name is known to me,
other than nothing. Professor Varghese did PhD
and all was around that time only.
What I mean to say is the total PhD
in engineering itself was small.
At IIT the motivation was by A. Ramachandran was that,
if you finish PhD you get your promotion immediately. Yes,
that’s not a joke. That was the first thing.
And therefore,
the faculty research - actually there were not students - the faculty
themselves were participanting or doing their research
in the laboratory till late in the night to see that their PhDs are there.
And the research guidance were - guides were very few,
therefore, number of faculty registered under one senior faculty
had to do a lot of work, research work to see that PhDs here.
So, from 68 to 73, the - that culture was a necessity
for the PhD staff members to do PhD in addition to teaching.
To mention there was a time
when I was doing my M.Tech, not PhD -
out of 40 hours of the workload
that we have, we used to have 36 hours of
either doing research or doing teaching
or doing by ourselves studies,
that was the timetable that we used to have.
And even research scholars they used to work
one I think it is, first research scholar. Do you remember
who is the first research scholar?
First research scholar is B. V. Subramanyam?
No, no. From IIT Madras.
Keshav- Fully from IIT Madras.
Fully from IIT Madras Civil Engineering Department
is one Keshavan Nair - Sukeshan Nair.
Sukeshan Nair. Sukeshan Nair.
Who - he did - nearly 93 specimens tested in Concrete Laboratory.
Unimaginable because the money involved in
pouring concrete and 93 specimens, he did.
And In which one, what is his area of research?
Concrete frame corners. Frame corners.
Frame corners. Frame corners.
And he - we had - actually I used to tell them,
he had 2 big volumes of his thesis. The theses were 2 volumes.
2 volumes to send abroad number for him.
Number 2, next was Professor Ganeshan, 1 volume,
next was myself - 70 pages.
Actually, the Professor - Sukeshan Nair's
thesis was evaluated by Structural Engineering Research Centre
Director G. S. Ramaswamy. G. S. Ramaswamy.
He was one of the examiners. He said
so much of work, so much of volume of work for one PhD?
he asked him in the viva voce
because, what is the requirement of doing PhD
over one PhD was not well defined.
For, everybody is afraid saying that
we should get it without any difficulty, do as much as possible.
And, Sukeshan Nair was - I think his patience
I should appreciate, because I was in charge
of the Concrete Laboratory and any minute
I will see that Sukeshan Nair will be demanding for manpower;
whereas, I should allot manpower for others also.
And, since is the first PhD students the research
came into picture after Ramachandran said
that it is a must for you to have a PhD for going to a promotion.
Therefore, if you see from the records the faculty doing PhD
and completing it was the maximum in 63 to 73, in 66 to 73.
And actually, subsequently,
Then PhD is joined. people were ... yeah.
People were taking only with the PhD they were -
So, there was a transition. No, there was a joke also
from class 3, class 4 post, class 3
if you want to come instead of PhD, IIT Madras it was there
So then actually I remember, what I am saying is Class 4 to class 3.
very many other institutions have
gone through a similar transition Quite possible.
in India. For example, when the RECs became NITs. Yeah.
They went through similar transition. Prior to that
there was not an insistence on research in this institution.
So, very many faculty did not and then when it became NITs,
people were started asking what is your research output
and the faculty had difficult time you know to be able to show.
So, all these national institutions
have gone through this type of phase-
the - what are the differences in the administrative
structure of the institute from the time it was established,
as you went through the department
to it in, can you kind of touch upon that?
Before that - You were actually also a
Dean Administration. Yeah
Dean Administration. So, probably - you should I don't have -
you should say What I would say is
I would put it in a different way, that is, the structure of the institute
was academically oriented, research oriented,
with administrative staff with minimum till around 68, around that.
Then afterwards this administrative building came up now.
Then we had one floor reserved for account section
plus trash, one floor for administration,
one floor for the Director’s office at the top
most floor along with senates room and all,
one floor for engineering unit
and one floor for counselling to say. Academic.
Academic. These are all this thing.
Then since the research degrees came, were to be awarded,
there's a research wing, there is a - Course wing.
Course wing. Then we had two wings;
one course wing and research wing.
Earlier, there was only one administration
which took care of administration and academic activities.
One superintendent will be there for academic,
one superintendent will be there from administration
then they were made Assistant Registrar.
That was the time when it was in 64, 65 and all.
Then afterwards academic separately done
and because the examination pattern
etcetera etcetera were also changed,
question papers were set internally
and that has to be monitored.
And, we had equally - equal - I mean, weekly examinations
that has to be monitored, then the periodical system.
All those things were slowly developed
from 63 up to say, let's say, 70s no no.
That brought in very high academic responsibilities
load on the institute. Therefore, academic section grew.
Simultaneously, the workshop
and other areas we had the class 3, class 4
staff numbers increasing because
the Research Departments wanted workshop for itself.
Every department wanted an workshop.
Therefore, there are mechanics, instrument mechanics therefore.
The administration of all those things
the so-called class 3, class 4 sector
was in the high and it was around 500
and odd at that time, about 70, sometimes 70-75 like that.
When it came to - when it is around 90,
not 90 - it was in 78, 79 when Professor Indiresan joined,
he said there will be Deans
who will take into the- take the responsibilities;
for one is Dean, Academic Affairs,
in one Dean, Academic Research Affairs,
another Dean one Industrial Consultancy,
one Dean for Students and then one Dean for- Administration.
Dean Administration. Dean Administration,
These are - that's not Dean Administration
This was a Dean Administrators, not called Dean Administration,
it was - yes it was Dean Administration. Earlier to it, it was called
Professor in Charge of Faculty In charge of -
and that was considered Dean Administration
because for a few- As far I remember,
Indiresan is the one who introduced the
Deans at that time. Dean system at the institute
yeah And for each dean
there will be one unit
where will be representation from each departments -
student member, board of students, board of academic courses,
board of academic research, like that.
For, each department has to spend
send one faculty for Board of Research,
one faculty for Dean of Academic, Board of Academic Courses,
one faculty for Dean of Students,
one faculty for Dean of Industrial Consultancy.
For, each department represented
in those deans and then deans
who will look into the overall development
of that particular area
and that was how the development
started in administration. Would you say; would you say, that this is
if you say, that he started as an institution
which was a top-driven to an institution
which became little more democratic
in terms of its representation, administration,
I think would you say that this is the transition?
Where, for example, I remember when I was a student
Heads of the Department was always there,
he has a permanent position and he was pretty powerful
and by the time I came back as a faculty,
Head of the Department post was no more permanent.
It was a - Rotate.
- 3 year duration. i Rotate so.
And, also this type of representation
of faculty input into the administrative -
That came - as well as the -
That came in - it started in 73, 74
with professors-in-charge. Right.
It they were not Deans, the professors in charge of various wings now,
we had a separate curriculum development cell Right.
for various department that was not amongst the deans
and there was - You were also in charge.
No, no, no. Curriculum development cell
Curriculum development cell was not there.
By the time I came joined the institute,
the dean's positions had come, you know.
So No, no there was one professor -
curriculum development cell was there I remember.
Then there was cell for what is that - you are doing this
editing and all those things is for - Matthews was there, what is that?
Photography, something connected to that,
I don’t get the name for that.
Professor Swamy do you know that, there is a department - one -
No sir. One, one establishment was there.
It is around 73 the industrial consultancy
after the 68, 73 period when research was given the weightage.
In 73 it was said that
you should also participate in the industrial consultancy;
so, that your input must be available for the industry,
for industrial consultancy was started at that time only,
and the deans came into picture only in 78, 79.
There was also industrial consultancy. From 73 to 79,
the mode of operation in the institute was:
percentage of your work will be in academic teaching
and research, percentage of work is
development of research activities,
percentage of time is allotted for
10 minutes consultancy - that was the allotment of time.
Each department has its own method of
allotting the time for the faculty
depending on their interest and ability,
wherever they can put more efforts,
but the output for the department shall be maximum.
And there was a student evaluation
for the students - that was for the teaching
staff. That was introduced late 80s.
No no that is in 70s. late late 70s,
Late 70s. Late 79 or 80.
Indiresan period, Indiresan period. Indiresan period.
Therefore, therefore, what happened is, this demarcation of
various areas was available only after 75, 78 -around 78
which means if you say a democratic way of running the
institute - When I say democratic, I meant
Atmosphere. you know input came
from the users of the service. Yes.
You know earlier the input was not there from users of the service,
earlier, somebody at the top, you know, knew what was - and then that was
Oh, that was in 70, when it came to afterwards
when I was also having certain other responsibility later
there was a necessity of- Have a break professors.
Sir, have a break. I think we are sitting more than -
Yeah yeah can we just - he wants to - just wants to have a break for some time
Yeah, I will complete this Ok.
There was a necessity of difference,
see the institute has grown big, the class 3, class 4 staff
were large numbers and they need lot of money.
They needed lot of money, therefore,
they went on borrowing from outside
and borrowing at an interest rate of 25 percent, 30 percent.
The staff member; you mean the class 3, class 4 staff members.
Staff members. Right.
Then, I think it was Professor Kuriakose
of the Chemistry Department,
who said that this should not be allowed.
Because the person who collects the money
right on the first of this month,
he will be right in the beginning of
administration block at the - at the - start of administration block. The loan sharks.
And - and -sharks; therefore, we started a thrift society
to whatever it is worth it. Thrift society.
I remember, I remember.
Therefore I, I was in charge of thrift society also. You were you were in charge of thrift society.
And when the times when the deans were appointed,
there was also Professor in charge of Engineering Unit.
Because, originally Engineering Unit was headed by
one superintending engineer, afterwards
superintending engineer cannot be, I mean,
deputed from the central government.
They had to have their own engineers,
therefore, we had one professor
in charge of Engineering Unit with executive engineer down below.
For, there were areas which are headed by separate people like -
There were different centres were there.
Different centres were also there.
Photographic Centre was there,
there was a Curriculum Development Centre was there.
I don’t know 2 or 3 centres are also there.
That is the way in which administration developed.
Centre for Continuing Education.
Continuing Education. Continuing Education.
We have been talking about academic activities
associated with the institute, but you all have lived
in this campus for 30 plus years. Yes.
And, you had other hobbies other than
the academic activity, and also campus life.
Can we touch upon that?
You know for example, you have stayed in the
campus for longer time also. Yes.
Can you touch upon
what you think is the value - for example,
most of the faculty I know
consider as a perk in working in IIT Madras
is the living on campus. You know that thing -
living on campus is a perk which nothing else can bring to us.
So, what’s your - what’s your - take on that?
My thing is, the, my life in campus for 32 years,
it's very very wonderful, no doubt about it.
In that, after 1970 I had come back from Germany,
I had contact with Professor Kumaraswamy
who was in the Madras - Yeah, I was going to come to that
you know Kumaraswamy as a faculty has done
lot of Metallurgy Department.
spirituality Yeah, spirituality
right. That's what.
So, that life was evening, institute life,
but even I was, that was really wonderful,
where nobody can get it anywhere
even in Madras. I remember number of
you learned Veda from him. Yes correct.
Not only that not only that one,
now I am present as IIT only now,
I don’t - nobody knows me as Radhakrishnan
in my - in my family or other community,
IIT is coming they will say as personal fact I am like that.
But, he made us expert in all - many questions
you ask. either in this one also, he will answer
unfortunately he is no more, I know you know that.
Professor Karaswamy he was a faculty in Metallurgy
Department. In Metallurgy Department he became Assistant Professor,
he took his MSc here also
and then he didn’t complete his PhD,
he didn’t want it perhaps.
But, outside the office hours after 4,
he was very helpful in framing our
general questions, many things. About life.
About life, many things no doubt it,
we had regular classes
in nobody many people didn’t come
of course, you can say there are 600 families in IIT
how people made use of - that is different,
that is purely personal.
But, what whole people use
they made very excellent it was.
Actually there was one Raman;
I don’t know whether you know him
in Mechanical Department - professor. I know.
He was the man who I remember
who didn’t go to any teaching profession
or research profession after his retirement,
he followed only this one.
He gives lectures in Tamil in Madurai
and I was in touch with him
that was brought by him only,
that type of life also was very useful
no doubt about it.
You were also part of that. The life
in IIT Chennai, I mean campus
has been wonderful. See, everything
everything is available inside the campus.
The shopping centre, though small,
took care of the immediate necessities
in the campus and
if at all we can go to Adyar and do it now.
Therefore, our, the faculties' members life
was enjoyable. As far as the ladies club
ladies are concerned there are ladies club.
They were also mixing up with other ladies
and they are having a really good time
and a level at which they are able to move around
and talk around and all. They brought them
to a higher level of culture itself.
And not looking at local politics
and all those things, they are able to discuss
things better - as a free citizens of the country
to that level the entire campus has been - So, did the children.
So, did the children. So, also the children.
Children had education in the K. V. School, Kendriya Vidyalaya here
and which is a cosmopolitan group of people there,
other school Vana Vani School
which is an excellent campus life -
that we have had all these things
added to it. Made it difficult to go out of the
campus after. Very very difficult that’s why
you see even people who are retired
they would like to stay as much as
possible inside the campus.
And those who got into a position called emeritus,
they would like somehow get into the place
and - that was the attraction of the campus
and still it is there.
And we, as Professor Radhakrishnan said,
we had additional advantage of
a leading us into the spiritual
life of doing it and understanding that.
See there are so many things
which are being done in the society as a ritual,
but what Kumaraswamy made us understand is
is it's not a ritual, please understand what you are doing.
Please question yourself whether things are right or wrong,
if you find it wrong unless you are feeling it right
need not have to do it, please look into that.
To that extent he has brought us to that level.
Along with it, the ritualistic part also,
citing Vedas and attending functions
for the festival research, that has been excellent.
Even today, the people in the temple
will definitely feel that the
culture in the temple has been
brought up to this level.
In those days when Kumaraswamy was the
Head of the- faculty here, he was also Head of the
I mean President of the temple samajam
for some time and the temple's
growth and its activities today
is comparable to any one of the
bigger temples in the society
and they have been doing well.
I think nothing to criticise or nothing to
comment about the campus life
and the negative side,
if at all you should say yes
here is the campus which has to be humiliated
anywhere else that is how we should say.
In fact I remember, most of the faculty member
coming from other IITs also appreciated
the greenness of this campus.
Yes. This is one of the thing that’s outstanding
about the campus - the campus has
maintained its greenness over these years
in spite of the growth, and it has been,
in fact, I was told when I became a student here
Professor Sengupto decided that the
roads will go where it kills the least amount of trees.
You know, in those days people
would not even know about ecology or environment.
But, he had the vision to say that the
campus will be built such that
it will have the greatest least amount of
disturbance to the existing flora and fauna that’s one.
You know we have some problem of the temple also -
it's not that easy -
when Professor Dr. Ramachandra was Director,
one day there was - he called me
He said Director wants you, Director wants you.
I said I won’t meet Director, I don’t know
I am not in the - I told him frankly -
I am not in the inner circle of the Director,
why does he want me, I don’t know, he wants you to. Talk louder, sir.
So, next day - there was no telephone those days,
house whose connection as much there
somebody came and said Director wants.
So, next day I said I will come 10 o'clock,
he wants to meet you.
Then I said the question was nothing is there,
who built this temple?
There is a question in the Parliament,
I want the answer in 3 days Radhakrishnan,
he said you are the Secretary of the Temple Samajam.
So, I want to answer the question
the following 4 questions that was
approved in the parliament also
because, there was no other thing else.
So, it came up on this one
and it was constructed by
actually the architect was only that Y. S. Ramaswamy, the
The then superintendent engineer. then superintendent engineer.
But the temple, there was a
there was a village temple that exist. Yes, yes there was a temple,
There is a temple. Just lingam was there. a lingam was there. There is - only a lingam was there.
So, what he used to do is I tell you
I was there from 61 before I was there.
What he was doing is the people who
finished all the contractor workload
the balance material I used to put in the temple,
just to put it - like that it was constructed.
No, he didn’t collect anything money
from anywhere outside the
those balance things don’t throw it outside,
put it inside and go away.
It was constructed like that
and went developed all these big
things Shankaracharya Swami came and blessed this one, that's all.
It came up - now, it has got a very good name
outside, remember I want to tell you because,
I am also; even yesterday I was here the temple,
I did some puja yesterday morning. The question came because of
so-called secularism in the parliament.
And afterwards it was it was Part of it. So, I answered the question.
it was also answer to that effect saying that Yes.
secularism does not mean no religion between that is the thing.
If - if somebody has asked for certain other facilities
who could not have been denied.
There was an Ayyappa Samajam
inside the temple itself. It was there.
Therefore, it's there, therefore,
there has not been any differentiation in the temple
that was the answer given
and it was accepted by parliament.
You know I have been here as a student
and then I had also joined back as the faculty
and I was used to be called as a 'baccha'
of the department because,
I was the youngest faculty at that time.
And, I have seen both the student side
and the faculty side of the campus
and I think one of the thing that
kind of makes a difference in this institute is that
student faculty relationship, you know,
it's never been an adversarial relationship,
it has always been a friendly relationship.
Faculty look at the students as something that
they are trying to facilitate their learning
and the students see the faculty as people.
There may be exceptions to this,
but as a general rule, there has been a very
congenial relationship between faculty. Definitely
students in this campus no doubt about it
and that is something I think
that needs to be spoken about you know.
And, it's a - it’s one of the reason why
the education takes place in the way
in the environment that it is taking place.
The other thing is - I remember
as soon as they came back to join faculty,
Indiresan was particularly interested
in the student faculty interaction.
And, part of the type of interaction is also
in Civil Engineering Department, the Civil Engineering Association;
Can you - the Civil Engineering Association
been very active you know in the department
and in - in fact, every year students
the students and faculty used to choose a topic
and debate that topic in the Civil Engineering Association.
Can you just reminiscence any of those things
that you have been involved in,
can you remember that you remember that?
But I was the man who is inaugurated
the Civil Engineering Association,
Professor Varghese asked me already
you had experience in Guindy Engineering College
why don’t you inaugurate? Alright we started,
but afterwards as you said
every year we used to have some meeting,
get together all those thing
as it was very good you can say. No in fact,
I remember one debate was
whether students who are
leaving the country to study abroad or staying
are they - are they - forsaking the country.
You know this is a student on faculty,
students spoke for and against,
faculties spoke for, against;
we had a nice discussion.
I think these are the type of -
We had student interactions with faculty very well,
because not only in Civil Engineering Association,
so many activities we had. Yes.
Hostel day celebration - there will be regular visits
for the hostels from the faculty members
meeting there, lot of discussions.
Non-academic discussions also will take place,
students will say what shall we do after doing it,
they will take suggestions from the faculty,
an open ended suggestion.
It does not mean that they've got to do it and all,
such a atmosphere as there and unless
we see something negative we will not be able to say
this is the beauty of this now
and we have been looking at always this positive side.
You have gone outside and have come.
Therefore, if you say that this is a
this has been positive here,
then I think we should accept. In fact, I remember the
other way also
the, there used to be a time where we
used to have a students come and visit our family
and spend some time together used to have together Right. That's what I said.
and I remember even today some of the students will come
and say you used to have us for Diwali.
You know those are the type of you know
interaction that we had
and that’s - that’s - one of the nice feature. That is
one of the things that even those days
when the institute was planned,
hostel wardens were located the hostel zone itself.
There were only 6, 7 hostels at that time
therefore, there were 6 warden. Certainly.
Afterwards it has grown big and therefore,
the wardens are somewhere here.
Otherwise the interaction with them was
students going to the warden and warden going to the students
yeah every time, it's very comfortable.
For example, Holi is one of the festival which is
very permanently you know yes
and it's one of the nice programme where student faculty interacting.
So, there are nice facilities for it.
As such we have seen only
positive side of it and therefore,
we are not able to appreciate so much
as a person who has seen a negative side
and then able to see this.
Both of you held some administrative posts,
I think you were Head of the Department
for some time, Head of the Laboratory for some time.
Both, both and - and then you were also Dean for some time.
Can you just share some anecdotes,
just an incident which kind of brings out
the intricacies of the position,
that you had, just one incident if it comes to your mind.
Otherwise, you can specifically talk about -
See, one of the thing that when I joined
the institute is, I found that
the amount of time faculty members spend
in other than academics,
in administrative work, in the institutes, I always felt was high.
You know it was higher than most institution
that I have been used to.
And in fact, I remember that when I was a faculty in the US,
I probably would have never met the President of the Institute
and the Dean, I would probably middle of engineering
I would probably meet once in 3 months
when we have a faculty meeting
and Head of the Department probably once a month.
But, I found that things were very different here,
we spent lot more time in the administrative set up, you know.
So, the, each of you in your position as administrators
how do you, do you feel that that was
so or what was it necessary
or could there be a change in terms of the
amount of administrative load on the institute?
Two things I would like to mention.
One is about administrative load
which you asked for I will come later.
As a Dean Administration we were - I was in charge of
arranging for the faculty recruitment and the selection process
and who should be called for interview and all.
We developed norms because, there should be uniformity
amongst the various departments.
In that process itself we found it difficult,
department to department there were difference.
Then for each department we developed around,
but the basic concept was that
the activities are to be taken as teaching
along with student evaluation,
research along with paper output,
publication output, and consultancy
along with turnover and also money
the money institute got. Funded Research.
Then, Funded Research,
then the projects that we got from Central Government,
these are all the areas in which -
Each department can say that
we will allot this various areas for the faculty,
but the faculties were also allowed to make their own decision.
The spectrum is open,
how much of time that you will allot for this
activity, this activity, this activity, this activity;
you can decide at the beginning of the year.
And, at the end of the year
or when you come for your evaluation,
what is your original decision
and how I would come up to that,
that was the item which we are referring to
for calling them for interview.
Because, the one person may be very good
at teaching, he must have got good records..
One person may be very good at consultancy,
some person may be very good at,
we need every area to be
same. But nevertheless, I think it's true
that -- the process of
actually there is no promotion,
it's everything you know every faculty come for. Everything is selection.
Selection, there is a process of selection
teaching and research take predominance
in the - yeah. That’s true
what we said is the allotment was
30, 30, 30 that is teaching and research put together is 60.
That is the minimum; you can have more,
you cannot have less than that.
Then consultancy, 20, and sponsored research 20,
this that you can change.
You can make all the 40 as sponsored
research and all the 40 as consultancy,
but the teaching and research has to
make 60 percent - that you have got to accommodate,
you cannot make teaching 20
and then remaining other things that was not allowed.
This was also notified to the departments
and Head of the Department was requested
to tell in the - Head of the - meetings of the faculty members
that they should present it.
When we evaluated the persons for calling
for interview because, you must have short listing.
The short listing by that time when I became a Dean
was little difficult in the sense
that there were already court cases in the institute
saying that you have not listed certain person for selection,
short listing should not be done by the administration,
it should be done by the Selection Committee itself.
And that was taken note of
by Professor Indiresan's time itself indirectly
in which he said 1 member of the Selection Committee
will be in the seminar which is being presented.
That was - that was - taken into consideration when I was a Dean
and, saying that there is short listing process
is also taken, that also was not inadequate.
It was not adequate because one case
came up afterwards, that at the time
when the seminar was conducted,
short listing has been already done.
So, what we had to do at that point of time is
shortlist it, send it to the Chairman Board of Governors,
get his initials first and afterwards
when the Selection Committee meets,
it is again told to all the members
this is the short listing norm, is there any other person
who is having a difference of opinion?
Then we give the entire set of applications
and look into it, that was done;
that was the administration procedure
standardized at that point of time.
So, that shortlisting there are no case arriving at it.
So, then. I am - I am - that’s kind of getting into the details.
I am just thinking in terms of the, you know, the
one of the, for example, you were saying dean administration's
responsibility was faculty selection.
I remember, Professor Indiresan, when he was there
when we are recruiting faculty
don’t think we are recruiting an Assistant Professor,
we are recruiting somebody
who is going to become a professor.
So, you look at him even at the time of recruitment
whether this is called a capability to become a professor
you know this is one No no that was the interview committee's
you are right. responsibility to say
whether this material is Is.
Worth for. Worth in this institute
to take any faculty position at any point of time
in future to the head of the departments Right, right, right.
and that is, it is not only connected
with his academic research
his overall development as a personality
we has to be looked into. That was the- But
I think more important was
whether he can become a professor,
you know because, not everybody
was expected to become a HOD.
No, no, not professor is very important person. So.
Dean, I mean Professor Indiresan used to say,
I am not important as the Director of the Institute,
the President of MIT is not very important,
but the faculty members who make
the department known outside is very important.
Therefore, do not look at the Director as the person,
you look at somebody else and say that this is the person
who would I like, he will be. In fact, I think
that's one of the thing that we find in India.
For example, just you were mentioning
the Director of - President of MIT may not be known,
but if Nobel Laureates are there, MIT MIT.
will be known outside the corner
and we have still not developed that kind of a culture No
as these institutions. that I will tell you,
That is correct. We are taken from the
we have we have come from the British culture.
Therefore, it is not so easy
to...because it will not be unparliamentary
if I say, but still I would like to be very guarded
in my statement and should not be misquoted.
The ethics in the society is the one
which makes all these things.
Because, if a person is true to himselves
and he would like to look at problems
from other's shoes, if they are able to do that
then he will be able to come a long way off, that is wanting.
And therefore, we need to have
to have some kind of a structured system.
Sir, that is true sir,
but on the other hand if there is often a statement
what should I do to become a professor?
It's a question that’s being
asked by all faculty members. Right.
And, I think answer has been, time
and again, that it cannot be in terms of numbers,
you have to show your ability to occupy
position of a professor in this institute by Why.
your performance, teaching research
at a level which is internationally recognized.
Correct. I would like to put that,
I had a question or I had a petition from one of the faculty
who was - who were looking for a professor's position,
he has appeared 4 or 5 times.
He sent a petition to the Director
which was forwarded to me, he said
what wrong have I committed,
I have done all these things.
You have asked that
you have how many papers etcetera etcetera.
Last year I did this much
and now this year I have made this much,
every year I show progress
and what is the effect of these things?
In the next interview, I have not been selected.
And, he also quotes somebody else
all these records and all those things,
it's very very difficult to satisfy requirements. From end actually
it is the Selection Committee,
finally, it is the Selection Committee. Selection Committee.
Process I say for, but there must be a faith in that. Yeah.
There must be a faith in that
and people should say the people sitting there
are doing their best in their positions.
And, similarly when a person is not being selected,
he should feel, yes something is wrong we should set it right.
And, there should not be a feeling of saying that
I have been dishonoured, something like that, this is the one thing
which is the plague in - which is the system
development, we cannot do it any way
further, it is very difficult. Yeah.
I don’t know if you have any other suggestion. No, no sir.
I say, with all these
questions, it will evolve. Evolution.
I was just going to ask
you have been Head of the Department. Often,
it is thought that Head of the Department
post is not very important or visible.
But, I have found that
time and again Head of the Department
make a lot of difference to the department,
can you, can you just corroborate
and then you know see what your No, I was only a Head of the Department.
opinion on that is. Quite short
very short my Head of the Department was
and so, I have not I can say
I have not done anything very big at that time.
Because, when Professor Krishnamurthy was away abroad,
I was made Interim Head of the Department.
So, all them want to came about
it to get about 3 months I was the Department officially.
You are Head of the Laboratory for some time.
I was Head of the Laboratory for years. Of course, so always
yeah, yeah, no problem. Can you say; can you say
do - do these heads you know Heads of the Department.
Heads of the Laboratory. Yes.
Do they make a difference to the department laboratory?
I don’t think there is any difference it makes.
I think it makes, sir.
Sir, it makes a difference.
I in my opinion. Now, what I am saying is.
For example, I think dynamic Head of the Laboratory
could make the laboratory function
differently from what it is because Function functioning.
see, one of the thing that IIT system has
is the ability to make decisions for yourself.
Correct. You know, it is not somebody
from outside who imposes their will.
For example, faculty of the department decide
individual faculty of the department decide
what kind of research they want to do
and the department as a whole decides
what is that they want to progress in.
So, there is a considerable amount of autonomy at each level.
So, given that Head of the Department I think
or Head of the Laboratory can make a difference
and I have seen that to be so, in time and again. So.
In my opinion, participation
in the Head of the Department in every activity
in the department which will be a strain
on his system because he has to attend
so many 3 or 4 section, is very important.
He should show interest in every department
with the best to the possible way
that he can, he should show.
Any research activity he should spend time
to understand that, it is not in my area
therefore, let somebody talk of it, it's not that.
It is the necessity of the Head of the Department
to have an overall view of all the sections.
So, in effect what you are saying is
Head of the Department can play a very
facilitating role. Can, can play
And, but then you know all play daily and all.
set and then individual faculty member drive their research,
but Head of the Departments
Yes, known to be. Head of the Laboratories can play a facilitating role.
But, sometime suppose we say the
Head of the Department is not able to
come into the field what he was doing. What to do?
For example, my case I was doing completely in dynamics.
So, the Head of the Department
was not able to do anything in Dynamics.
So, he has to get the help of from other departments,
that he can do it only by his influence.
No, no actually sir what I am saying is
when you are Head of the Department
you are really not evaluating the specific technical contribution,
but you are evaluating the person’s ability to do research,
that is what you are doing you know. Yes yes yes.
So, as it stands from, after all we sit in a seminar
when you know when faculty members are selected
and give you a feedback,
we may not be specialists in that area.
Nevertheless, we understand that
the - the thoroughness of the research
that the person is presenting
and things like that are the ones you judge.
In fact, one of the I think one of the strength of the IIT system is
at every level it places a responsibility
at that level to exercise the responsibility you know.
And, as a result I think we have been able to - as long as
we exercise the responsibility that we are assigned to,
the institute tends to be in good hands.
As long you know whereas, a person who is outside who is not
knowledgeable about what is happening,
so, but as you are saying that
such responsibility should be exercised
with fairness and with you know
with the interests of the department
or the institute in mind.
I think this system has progressed well
simply because the institute has had that type of facility.
The other thing is the culture of the students over the years
in both in undergraduate level and postgraduate level,
do you see any difference? Yes.
What would be the changes that you think are positive?
What are the changes you think are negative?
Maybe, I come to you first, sir,
we have stayed long here; what are your- No.
What are the changes that you say see in the
undergraduate students, talk about undergraduate student first.
Undergraduate students they are actually
it is difficult to manage because they are too young,
I can say when they come to the this thing
is about hardly 18 years or so.
But, they used to be young even They come; no.
when I - Right, right, wait wait.
Although where it's easy for us also to
to bring them to the line, this is not difficult.
Whereas, postgraduate students or PhD students is
little bit tough to manage.
So, I find the undergraduate students are
quite good in this one.
But do you see a change?
You know what I am saying compared to
when you joined the institute the undergraduate students
I find. and the change in today, undergraduate students.
I find, say, What is.
I find now I don’t know where
I have. No, at the time you retired.
At the time you. Retired.
It was - there was a - I find good change, it was there.
It was there What are the positive changes,
what are the negative changes?
Positive changes is you can say
first thing is they come, they came on their own to institute.
So, that thing always is there with them.
The students who join IIT Madras,
they came on their own,
no recommendation, nothing is there.
So, that thing always there.
That is all along That has existed all along.
That is there. It is there.
But the 50 percent of the students
who come after joining the institute, they come quite alright
and they do behave very well all those thing else,
I like them very much, no doubt about it.
I find improvement also after this
because, they become more matured
within 3 or 2 years, 4 years course.
At the end of 2 years they come alright
and then I find them very good in during the end.
I find them lot of - no doubt about it.
What is your opinion particularly with regard to postgraduate
students over these years?
The activities in which they are engaged
is beyond the activities of the department
and beyond the activities in which they should be engaged
You mean to say in you mean to say in terms of
programmes like Shaastra and Saarang?
All those I don’t want to name anything.
The activities that they are supposed to be engaged or
the activities they are engaged in is academic and other things.
Beyond this, their activities are there which is uncontrolled.
And, this is the one thing which is caused by the society
and no person whether it be the Director
or the Dean or ... would like to interfere in that.
So, that they say that they are left to themselves,
but they are left to themselves not as free citizens of India,
they are left to themselves as students of IIT.
Therefore, still the institute administrations
has the responsibility and since they are owning them
as students of that institute they should be guided properly.
Actually, sir, if you take a look at in
you know I remember the student governance
since one of the thing if you take a look at it,
IIT Madras also has got the year election
year after year on selecting
the student government and it goes on nicely;
you know you don’t see the type of- No, no, election
I am giving that as an example
and similarly, if you take a look at Shaastra and Saarang,
it builds their ability to organize quite extensively
and I, you know. for example,
in - in - in the other sections of this institute
where they want to get the student activity
they are trying to emulate Shaastra and Saarang
because they have set up a procedure
by which they organize events.
So, you know these - these are
successful programmes that they are able to run,
you, you want to say something as a concluding remark
if you have anything to say that
you think has not been discussed? Actually,
out of my 30, 32 plus 5; 37 years of service
teaching, so 32 years I have spent in IIT Madras,
out of 36, so, I had a wonderful
stay I can say and my stay was very fruitful
and my children are all well set up
no doubt about it because, we are IIT was
having all those advantages no doubt about it;
wherever we go somebody ask whether are you in IIT,
so many years. So, yes I was in IIT so many years.
And that’s why now people don’t believe
that I have spent I have left IIT 25 years before
1992 October I retired, 2017 October is coming.
So, 25 years since I left the.
But you still - IIT is fresh and new. Yes.
No doubt about it. Yesterday I was Say.
there in the I mean I would
See, my experience total experience
in the IIT campus is 41 years,
the longest that one could have it at that time.
Now, it is research the age of faculty is gone up,
now earlier it is 62, I had 40 years in this in this institute,
really enjoyable and very pleasant.
My daughter even now says the best life I have had
that she is now about 48,
she says IIT life has been enjoyable
And she tells everywhere wherever she goes,
she goes around the world, this is the best life in India,
if you want to have just go to IIT for some time.
The final word I would say given an opportunity
the Director permits us to come and join in IIT campus,
I will be free to join.
If the God allows you to become 20 years old again.
So, that you can go through this whole thing again. I - I
I will go through that. That is, that's next one,
but even to date if a facility is there
for if not a facility if the permission is there
that we should be we can have a
some kind of a small residence
in a single room apartment in this
you would prefer this IIT than But
anywhere else. but, we will lose the forest
if we do that we will lose the forest. No that’s what he say.
The actually the, you know, as I said
I have been a student here and the faculty here
and I have also seen how the
academic rigour has gone up over the years.
I remember that what was expected of me
in terms of publications and things like that.
To become an associate professor or professor
has considerably gone up today.
Today, the expectation of faculty
in terms of what they are suppose to be
publishing is much higher than-
Yes. So, the academic rigour expectations
from faculty has gone up over the years.
I think that's something that's
for a growing institution which wants to become an international
that's the direction we should move. Yeah, yeah, that's-
that’s only reasonable for the reason that. Yes.
Days when facilities were less, we were asked to do certain things.
Now facilities are available. Available.
Everything is got digital But, I
and think sir, on the other hand,
on the other hand, it is requirement and that everywhere
you should look a little higher than
what you are originally having a status,
then only you will be finding improvement
and it is. In fact I remember
Funded Research when I joined this institute
one of the thing because i was used to the American system,
I was looking for a Funded Research.
When I talk to my colleague they used to say
funding in Civil Engineering is - is unheard of,
you know, there is no funding in Civil Engineering.
But, today every faculty within an year of joining the department
has one Funded Research project with them...
So, that shows how things have changed
Changed, yes, definitely yes. over the years in terms
of the research culture in this institution you know.
And, the change in teaching in education,
I remember Professor P. S. Rao
one of the senior faculty
saying that when you were all students
and I - when I taught a subject,
I knew that you would go
and use the subject in your profession;
that is he was teaching Reinforced Concrete.
I- if I become a, you know, whether you become an engineer
or whether you will practice Reinforced Concrete.
But at the time of his retirement
when I go and teach the class today
I am not so sure because the students
half the students in this class will not be Civil Engineers.
And, most of the other departments also
say half the students in my class will not be
Mechanical Engineers, Electrical Engineers, Computer Scientists.
And, that in a way also reflects
how the country has changed over the
when in the long 40 years ago
even the opportunities in the area
of your engineering was low.
Today people have beyond engineering profession,
opportunities in other areas
and that also shows the way the country has- I would like to
add one point there.
I was with connected with industry after leaving this office
IIT for 15 years in the industry.
During that period the later part of that period,
I found an IIT graduate - he is not bothered about
Civil Engineering, Mechanical Engineering, he is the IIT graduate
can fit in any profession. Not necessarily Engineering,
Finance, Administration, any profession.
The training in this institute is good enough
for making a man near perfect
in any profession he takes it up with sincerity.
I have found that Correct.
as an industry and also in the professional world outside.
I think that’s also an indication of
broad base of education there. Yes.
Student to get exposure to. To that
Other than academics also. Other than
academic that is very important.
Ok sir. Ok.
Thank you very much for your time
and I think we had a good discussion.
Very good discussion.
Your experiences and thanks for sharing it with us.
So, we are really pleased
and it's a great pleasure for me to
tell you that our experience to talk about it To.
and being nostalgic about it.
We are elated to be with you today
and we thank you for giving you an opportunity. The best opportunity I had
I had both the things with my students.
- Contribute
to the Centre -
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Support - Digital
Material
Prof. V.M.K. Sastry in conversation with Prof. Ajit Kolar and Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam
Prof. Ajit Kumar Kolar: Greetings from IIT Madras Heritage Centre.
Today at the Centre we are in conversation
with Professor Vedantam Murali Krishna Sastry
known as Professor V. M. K. Sastry
who was here in IIT Madras
as a faculty member from 1970 to 1998.
I will give you a brief introduction, and then
we will have a conversation about the
history of IIT Madras as Professor
Sastry looks at it during his tenure in this institute.
Professor V. M. K. Sastry graduated from the first
IIT which is at Kharagpur,
then he did his Master's in Indian Institute of Science
Bangalore, then his Ph.D. from
University of Illinois at Chicago Circle Campus, Chicago
in the area of Heat Transfer
he worked with Professor James Hartnett:
highly reputed Heat Transfer researchers of those times.
He worked in IIT Kanpur for some time,
he joined IIT Madras in 1970
in the Department of Mechanical Engineering.
Particularly, he was associated with the Heat
Transfer and Thermal Power Laboratory.
He went on to become the Head of the Department
of Mechanical Engineering from 1986 to 1990.
Later, he was the Dean of Academic Research
and he was the member of Board of Governors
when he retired in 1998.
He also is the Founder Professor
of ETC that is a Educational Technology Centre
which is now a very big part of the IIT Madras outreach,
especially through the NPTEL Programme.
He was Chairman of the Vanavani Committee,
and also he was Warden of Cauvery Hostel.
So, Professor Sastry has tremendous...
A long and vast experience in the IIT system,
first as a student, undergraduate student in IIT Kharagpur,
and then ending up as the member of
the Board of Governors at IIT Madras.
So he has seen the IITM...IIT system grow
from its initial...almost the beginning of the 1950s
up to '98, but then even now, although he is
officially outside the IIT system for the last 20 years,
he has been a very keen observer,
external observer of the growth of the IIT system,
IIT Madras. So, it is our pleasure to have Professor Sastry today,
to get his perspective of the IIT Madras
and IIT system in general. Welcome, Professor Sastry.
Thank You. We are very happy that you are here...
Prof. V. M. K. Sastry: Thank you, Professor Kolar. Prof. Kolar: today.
I would like to start by
asking you what were the circumstances under which you
came to IIT Madras from United States,
especially you joined the
Heat Transfer and Thermal Power Lab,
the academic and research environment,
especially also with respect to Heat Transfer subject,
kindly say few words about it.
Prof. Sastry: First of all, after graduating from IISc Bangalore
that is my Master's,
I was quite...deeply influenced by Dr. Ramachandran,
because though I was doing my
Master's Degree in Foundry Engineering,
he was actually handling the subject of Heat Transfer to us.
So I did his project work under him
and then I worked in an industry for a year,
but then I wanted to shift it to teaching line.
So I thought teaching line if I want to
really contribute, I must have a Ph.D.
So I was in search of a guide for Ph.D.,
and in that process I went first of all to
IIT Kharagpur as a lecturer.
So I was not very successful in finding a Ph.D. guide.
So I shifted to IIT Kanpur.
So there, one Professor Richard Zimmerman from Ohio...
Ohio State University, he actually accepted me to work under him.
But because of some policy issues involving
both Indian side as well as American side,
you know unlike Germany,
the assistance from United States was basically a private
affair; not from the government,
it is what is called an IIT...the...the...the University Consortium
of about 9 universities joining together,
and because of that, there was policy differences,
and the American side objected
that until the entire B.Tech. programme is in place,
you cannot have even faculty members working part-time for Ph.D.
Prof. Kolar: This was in the early 1960s. Prof. Sastry: This was in 1962.
So after a year, the American Professor said,
"Sastry, if you want to really get a Ph.D.,
go abroad." That is how I ended up in the United States.
So after my Ph.D., I joined the faculty of the University of Illinois also,
and when I was there working, 1969,
I got a letter from Professor Ramachandran
who was already by that time, the Director of IIT Madras.
So he said, "Why don't you come and join the
Mechanical Engineering Department?" So I said "Yes, I can do,
but I am now working on a NASA project,
so one more year I need,
so can I have a joining time of one year?"
With his, you know, very broad minded outlook.
He said, "Why not?"
So that is how I...
Basically, in those days you know, the people who went abroad,
they were not willing to settle down there,
they just wanted to increa...improve their qualifications and then get back.
That means basically Bharat Mata calling back.
So that is how the situation was, and I returned.
So I...was supposed to come
and join this '70 academic session, July,
but then my professor and guide,
Dr. Hartnett, he said that
"Now you are going to India,
and we don't really see..."
He was actually the...the very prominent...
International Journal of Heat and Mass Transfer, that is
the international journal, he was the editor.
So he said, "We are not really receiving many
articles...research articles in the
area of Heat Transfer from India.
So, for you to really work in this area,
it may be a good idea, if you meet several of the
international experts in Heat Transfer."
So they said...that's why in
August of 1970, the...there was the Paris
Fourth International Heat Transfer Conference.
So he said, "I will introduce you to a lot of
people there, why don't you come and..."
Because our paper also was there.
So, present it and then go.
So I requested Dr. Ramachandran,
"Is it ok if I join instead of the
beginning of the academic year,
in the middle of the year if I join, is it ok?"
He jumped at the opportunity and he really,
you know that shows actually the vision of Dr. Ramachandran.
Prof. Kolar: And he himself was a Heat Transfer person, basically. Prof. Sastry: He was himself a Heat Transfer person.
So he said, “That's a very good idea,
you come and join, after attending those things.”
So I came here, and because it was in the middle of the
academic session, I had not much teaching work to do.
So, in fact, it was a tremendous experience
for me to interact with him because,
on the first day when I met him in his office,
he said, “Sastry, this lab used to be called a Steam Lab.”
So after I came here, I changed the name
to ‘Heat Transfer and Thermal Power.’
This is very important from the history of the Heat
Transfer research in the country and in IIT Madras,
it was called a ‘Steam Power Lab,’
Prof. Sastry: Steam Power Lab. Prof. Kolar: Under Professor Narjes
But Professor Ramachandran, because
he was a Heat Transfer person,
he said, “We should have a Heat Transfer specialization.”
So he changed the name,
Professor Narjes was the head
and then ’70, Professor Sastry came in.
Prof. Sastry: So, I… Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam: But when had the lab been set up, sir?
Mr. Sathasivam: How many years had it been running? Prof. Sastry: It was set up in the beginning itself.
In fact, there was one
Professor from University of Stuttgart, Professor [indistinct].
He was also a member of the
German Committee which established IIT.
So, he actually was working in…the…in…in
Stuttgart, it was basically a Steam Lab, you know.
Mr. Sathasivam: It was a replica of… Prof. Sastry: Replica of that one
Mr. Sathasivam: The Stuttgart lab. Yes.
So, I…I came and then Dr. Ramachandran said,
“Though I changed the name,
whatever facilities you want, we will try to provide.
Can you, at least after 4 or 5 years,
make this Heat Transfer Lab
a real good Heat Transfer Lab
which is really doing reasonably good work in…in the area.”
Sir, excuse me, was Heat Transfer
being taught as a subject in any IIT or
other institutions in the country at that time?
To my knowledge there was…Heat
Transfer was not being taught at all
in any institution. Maybe,
I may be wrong, maybe Professor Sukhatme in IIT Bombay,
might have started, but I doubt it because as
undergraduate curriculum, it was not part of that.
So in fact, that is the one of the reasons why
Dr. Ramachandran particularly said,
“First of all let us develop a
Master's degree programme in Heat Transfer.”
So, now, that you don't have any teaching load,
why don't you design a 2 year
programme…M.Tech. programme,
in the area…in the subject of Heat Transfer.”
So, I worked on it for a couple of months.
So I made a detailed programme,
the curriculum was completely finalized,
then Dr. Ramachandran looked at it,
he approved, and he said that…until that time,
the Master’s Degree programme in Mechanical Engineering,
was…was only involving I think two or three areas:
One is Advanced Thermal Power,
Machine Design and probably Manufacturing.
I am not very sure.
So he said, “Let us have a regular programme.”
And then when he was quite certain that
there should be a 2 year programme
Master’s degree programme in several areas,
he asked the Department of Mechanical Engineering staff
there are almost about 10 labs
in the Mechanical Engineering.
So he said, “Each lab, each special area,
you should have a similar programme.”
So that's why by 1971, Prof. Kolar: Yes.
You know all the labs of Mechanical Engineering Department,
each department for example,
the M.Tech. programme in Combustion
M.Tech. programme in Refrigeration and Air-Conditioning…like that
all these 10 programmes actually were developed
and that's how it started in 1971.
But more importantly, what
Dr. Ramachandran suggested is that Heat…
Heat Transfer is an engineering science,
it was neither engineering nor science.
That…it used to be taught in Mechanic…Chemical Engineering also
as a more of…as a practical thing rather than
providing theoretical basis for it.
So, Dr. Ramachandran suggested
that we should also see that institutions like
Guindy Engineering College and other
engineering colleges in the country,
they also adopt this particular thing.
So he…I called actually, I arranged a
summer programme for 4 weeks
for teachers in the particular Thermal area.
So, 50 institutions actually participated for this 4…
So for that, what we did was, we actually
had this 4-week summer programme for these teachers,
along with that, we also tried to help them
by developing a lab manual.
For example, ‘How many experiments you can
conduct in Heat Transfer Lab.’
And that was quite a success because,
for the next 4-5 years, because in most of these
colleges you know, they have to go through a…
long drawn out procedure
to have any syllabus changes occurring,
because there should be a university level and all that.
So that is the reason why it took some time,
but eventually, a large number of institutions in the country
started teaching Heat Transfer as a
subject in the undergraduate programme.
I remember this very well sir because I
joined in ‘71 with you
and I was part of that first M.Tech. course specialization.
So, the point here is that
the…Heat Transfer for teaching undergraduate students
and bringing that into the Master’s programme,
actually was done by IIT Madras,
with the encouragement of Professor Ramachandran, and
Professor Sastry was there and Professor M. V. Krishnamurthy Prof. Sastry: Yes.
Prof. Kolar: was in the Refrigeration Lab. Prof. Sastry: Refrigeration Lab.
That's how Heat Transfer took routes
probably Professor Sukhatme who was a
Prof. Kolar: student of Professor [indistinct]. Prof. Sastry: [Indistinct] of.
And then…he is a Heat Transfer man, he had…
also was…sir, how about Professor A. K. Mohanty,
did he participate in this…from IIT Kharagpur?
Prof. Sastry: At that time he did not, but Prof. Kolar: Okay
basically what Mohanty was doing was,
he was in the…of course, Mechanical Engineering Department
in IIT Kharagpur, but when we…to actually
go ahead with this…1971 when we had this,
Dr. Ramachandran…you know, he is a…
in fact, I greatly respect him because he had Prof. Kolar: Yeah.
tremendous vision of so many things. Prof. Kolar: Yes.
One thing is this ‘Introduction of Heat Transfer’ as a
basic core course in the undergraduate programme
all across the country that is number 1.
Number 2, he said, that…“How about research?”
And I am really quite
surprised that he called me and he said,
“Now we will take admission for Ph.D. students,
so, take some.” Then
Dr. Kolar was one of the first ones.
So there are 3 students.
In 1972, again there was a batch of students and I took
3 students already…under me
and I was thinking that. you know, it is
too much for me because,
he said…he comes and says, “Take two more.
Take two more.” He said, “That is because…”
You know, my problem was, I worked actually
for my Ph.D. programme in a Space Research, Space Heat Transfer.
In India we were very much on…on the ground. Mr. Sathasivam: Yeah.
Prof. Sastry: Nowhere near space. Mr. Sathasivam: That’s right.
So therefore, what happened was that,
I myself was not really experienced in
several areas of applications of the Theory of Heat Transfer.
So he said, “Take two more.”
His idea was, if I take five students
in five different aspects of Heat Transfer,
some initiation of research can take place.
That…later on I found out the wisdom in that
because I think we have tried to develop
a Heat Transfer Lab very nicely because of his guidance.
Mr. Sathasivam: Sir, did Professor Ramachandran also initiate
these outreach programmes that you mentioned,
the Teacher Training Programmes that you conducted in summer,
in other branches in other labs and so on?
Actually this summer programme that I conducted
was not initiated by him
it was the so called Ministry of…you know
HRD the…the other… Prof. Kolar: Ministry of Education.
Prof. Sastry: So called Quality Improvement Programme. Prof. Kolar: Quality.
Quality Improvement Programme. They wanted to
actually have this for the…because this is for the teachers,
for the quality improvement.
So that is how it actually started.
But then, his vision was,
how to make this particular subject
very important and prominent one in the country,
because it actually…Heat Transfer is the subject
that cuts across several disciplines.
Aerospace it is there, in Chemical Engineering it is there, in…
of course, Mechanical Engineering obviously.
so because of that he wanted…
but…that it should develop actually quite well
all across, and so, he wanted to…say,
“Why don't we have a…
because you have now international contacts,”
Prof. Kolar: Yeah. Prof. Sastry: “Why don't you invite these
people from abroad, and then
we will have an international conference?”
But then finally, we decided, first of all let us
find out what is the extent of research that is
being done in the country,
before we take this international step.
So we wanted to have the First
National Heat Transfer Conference Prof. Kolar: Yes.
in 1972. And he wanted us to organize this one and
Dr. Krishnamurthy and myself, we were the organizing secretaries. Prof. Kolar: Yes sir.
Prof. Sastry: And we start a Mr. Sathasivam: Dr. M. V. Krishnamurthy.
Prof. Kolar: M. V. Krishnamurthy Mr. Sathasivam: Right.
Prof. Kolar: So it was in…during the Bangladesh War.
Prof. Kolar: 1971 December 1st to 3rd in CLT. Mr. Sathasivam: Ah, yes.
And big names, Professor Hartnett
Prof. Kolar: Professor [indistinct]. Prof. Sastry: Spalding
Professor Spalding from U.K.,
Professor Kadambi from IIT Kanpur,
Prof. Kolar: [Indistinct] from Uni…Russia. Prof. Sastry: Russia.
For us…we had just then joined for research, it was a
big thing that…we had not heard of Heat Transfer as a topic.
I am dwelling a little bit on this because
we started Heat Transfer research,
not only teaching, but research. This conference brought together
all the research community.
Sir and I am very happy to tell you, it is running
very successfully, the next one is being held
in the December of…every 2 years it changes.
So, Professor Ramachandran's vision. Prof. Sastry: Vision.
And the hard work that you and others…Professor
M. V. Krishnamurthy and others put in, has…really [Inaudible]
In fact, 1972 when we had…’71 we had this conference,
and ’73, we had the second conference in IIT Kanpur. Prof. Kolar: Kanpur.
Kanpur. And then, Dr. Ramachandran said,
“Now look…it looks like
we have a reasonably good work that is being done
both in the research laboratories,
education institutions and as well as industry to some extent.
So, why don't we have a society?” Prof. Kolar: Yes.
So, he said that, “We will have a…
we will…we will form an Indian Heat Transfer Society.”
So he gave me the task of
memorandum of association… Prof. Kolar: Following the constitution for the…
Constitution, and all that.
So we worked on it, and then 1974 we
established the Indian Society for Heat and Mass Transfer. Prof. Kolar: Yes.
Prof. Sastry: Heat and Mass Transfer. Prof. Kolar: With our Heat Transfer Lab as the headquarters.
Prof. Sastry: As the headquarters. Prof. Kolar: Even…even today it is so, sir.
Yeah, actually, 1974 onwards, until 1991, I had the
responsibility of being the secretary.
So for 17 years…
because there is nobody else that is willing to take.
Prof. Kolar: Yeah. Mr. Sathasivam: You would have been the Founder Secretary.
Prof. Sastry: Founder Secretary that's right. Prof. Kolar: Yeah yeah.
So, how about that Regional Centre?
This also connected with Heat Transfer and Energy, actually. Prof. Sastry: Yes.
See by that time, Dr. Ramachandran left actually in
1973, to take over as
Secretary, Department of Science and Technology.
In fact, that's what
I…another thing that I…aspect of Dr. Ramachandran:
he is a an institution builder.
He went and established the DST:
Department of Science and Technology. Prof. Kolar: Yes.
And afterwards of course, he…from
there he shifted to United Nations, and he
established the United Nations Centre for Human Settlements.
Prof. Kolar: In…in Nairobi. Mr. Sathasivam: Yes, yes.
Prof. Sastry: In Nairobi. Mr. Sathasivam: Yes.
So, in that sense he is actually a creator of institutions,
because of his visionary outlook.
So, after he went to DST,
there was actually an International Centre for
Heat and Mass Transfer in Yugoslavia
that was established with the assistance of UNESCO.
So, several of my international colleagues in the area,
they were associated with that Centre,
they said, “Now that…” because these people
have attended the conferences in 1971, ‘73 and
‘75 in IIT Bombay, they saw
the kind of work that is being done.
So what they said is, “Why don't we have…
not only India, but in the entire Asian Region, we will do it.”
So the…UNESCO actually sent a delegation
to tour various countries, of which actually Dr. Ramachandran was
a part of…that delegation.
And then the Yugoslavian Centre's Secretary
General was another member,
and of course, my former advisor
in Chicago, he was also another member.
They toured these countries and then they said,
“Yeah, it is time for us to have actually a
Centre for Asian countries, Asia and Pacific countries.
Prof. Kolar: Yeah Pacific. Prof. Sastry: Again, Dr. Ramachandran had the responsibility,
and by that time he was already in the DST, very busy and all that.
So he asked me to create that Centre.
So, I again drafted the constitution, and also
had several representatives from
Bangladesh and Indonesia and other places.
So we formed the Executive Committee and the
Board of Directors from Japan, for example.
So we created that Centre,
and then Dr. Ramachandran said, “Why don't we
start actually publishing a journal, Prof. Kolar: Journal.
taking into consideration the articles from these things.”
So, I also became the first editor of the
journal, he is the editor, and of course, the Prof. Kolar: Yeah.
Scientific Secretary of that (clears throat) that Centre.
He said, “Once we start this one, we have to do it
immediately.” He is…he is quite
impatient about getting things done.
So, first journal, should come out by December of 1978.
So we started this Regional Centre
in 1977, [indistinct] approved.
So the first journal should come actually in ’79…‘78 December.
We got it, but in those days as you know very well,
the printing and all that is…the words should be arranged in the
Mr. Sathasivam: Manual typesetting. Prof. Kolar: Yeah yeah yeah.
Mr. Sathasivam: That’s right. Prof. Kolar: Oh
Prof. Kolar: The First Heat Transfer Conference, we were all research scholars,
every day used to go to the printing press for proofreading,
we looked at the equations and said, “What
are all these equations? We don't understand whatever.”
All the research scholars, we had a fantastic
experience of those times. Prof. Sastry: And the printing
press was actually in the old Shopping Centre. Prof. Kolar: Shopping Centre.
Mr. Sathasivam: Yes. Prof. Sastry: In our
Mr. Sathasivam: Yeah. Prof. Sastry: Campus
Prof. Kolar: So this is very nice to hear
from you directly the… Prof. C. S. Swamy: I have one…
Prof. Kolar: Yeah please go ahead, go ahead, yeah.
Prof. Swamy: Now you said that Professor Ramachandran
Prof. Swamy: was interested in starting Heat Transfer,
Prof. Swamy: [Inaudible] to do with his being
Chairman of the Research Council of Defence Laboratory
You know he was Chairman of the Research Council DMR.
In fact, again I want to ask you, ‘72 I think
the Director of [indistinct] Narayanan
came with the delegation, and they wanted the IIT to
sub…submit projects. Prof. Sastry: Yes.
In fact, most of the projects submitted [Inaudible]
Maybe, I had also submitted a project.
Now why I am telling this, there was something about
he was thinking of rocket cones,
and then it was getting…could not be used again, because oblation.
So he said that we can [Inaudible]
So I had proposed something.
So about a coating of ceramic,
and a ceramic metal and a metal.
I said, “The most important thing is, you have to make the [Inaudible]
and we shall have a plasma torch to do this.”
In fact, my project was submitted,
but was not funded, but I
came to know much later that the plasma
torch was purchased by the Council. Prof. Sastry: Okay.
Prof. Swamy: But what I am telling you is, did Ramachandran get
interested in Heat Transfer because of its application in…
Prof. Sastry: First of all, Dr. Ramachandran himself
was actually…he had his Ph.D. from Purdue University. Prof. Swamy: I know.
Prof. Sastry: So in the…in the subject of Heat Transfer. Prof. Kolar: Heat Transfer.
Prof. Sastry: That is number 1. And of course, he was,
you know, Head of the Department in IISc Bangalore,
but more importantly, he wanted,
in fact, now that you mentioned about the
Sponsored Research and Industrial
Collaboration. In 1972-73…
Again Dr. Ramachandran said, “Somehow you know, when we do
something, we should also interact with the industry.” Prof. Kolar: Industry.
Prof. Sastry: “Industry-Institute interaction must be there.”
There used to be what is called RDOEI. Prof. Kolar: Yes.
Research and Development Organisation for Electrical Industry
In the Ministry of Heavy Industry in Centre, at the Centre.
So, he…the…a request came from there,
saying that, “You know, our…our motors and all these
things are becoming actually very large in size,
electrically we can do all these things, but because of the
cooling problem we are not able to
reduce this size for the same capacity.
So, can you please do something.” Because
because they know that Dr. Ramachandran was…say
expert in heat transfer, and he was Director here.
So they contacted him. Then he asked me and
Dr. Krishnamurthy, V. Krishnamurthy to look into this.
So Dr. Krishnamurthy by that time he changed his interests into. Prof. Kolar: Refrigeration.
Prof. Sastry: Refrigeration and air conditioning. So, we went to Bhopal, and as usual
you know the…the they were all buying the
drawings and equipment and everything
from associate electrical industries
which was supplying the equipment to them, and
they were not really interested in collaborating,
but luckily because of Dr. Ramachandran's
personal connection, Dr. V. Krishnamurthy, at that time. Prof. Kolar: Oh yes.
Prof. Sastry: Yeah. Prof. Kolar: BHEL
Prof. Kolar: top man. Prof. Sastry: BHEL…this thing, top man.
He said, “Let them go…come and look at it.”
But even though the faculty, the staff there were not very
cooperative, there was one Mr. Walker,
a 75-year-old man coming from AEI,
he himself said it’s a good idea if the…
because we don't understand what is happening there,
so theory must be also
matching with the…our experimental work.
So, let them do this. And because of Dr. Krishnamurthy’s
help, they supplied to us
all the drawings and other things like that, then we started.
In fact, that RDOEI industry project in 1972,
that they gave us about one and half lakhs or so.
Prof. Kolar: That is large amount at that time.
Prof. Sastry: That was the probably the first major
sponsored research project that came to us.
To IIT. Prof. Swamy: I see.
Earlier, there might be…you know some…
as far as my knowledge goes, that is the first major…this thing.
That is because of the fact that
there were administrative difficulties later on,
regarding…you know, how to distribute the
money and all that kind of thing, and that is the reason why
they said, we have to make some
policy and there are certain rules.
That is the reason why I am assuming, that that is the first
sponsored research project that came from outside.
So, for 3 years that I was associated with
Dr. Ramachandran 1970 to ‘73,
he started with several different friends,
for example, he also started some interdisciplinary Prof. Kolar: Yes.
programmes, but because he was…
he is way ahead of his times,
they didn't really take off.
Prof. Kolar: It took 45 years for them to materialize.
Yeah, interdisciplinary the reason why he was saying
was, because of his intense interest…should be promoted.
Departments should not be…you know,
the walls should not be built around the departments.
There should be constant interaction and exchange of ideas
and collaborative work among the
departments. That's what his intention was.
But it started and he was actually…along with
me, you know Dr. Natarajan and T. K. Bose and Prof. Kolar: Yes.
Some others of…the people, he
actually invited them from abroad.
Prof. Kolar: Sir, Professor Natarajan also joined just a year or two after you?
Prof. Sastry: No, in fact, around the same time. Prof. Kolar: Same.
Prof. Kolar: And Professor Bose also. Prof. Sastry: Few months.
Mr. Sathasivam: Actually, who were your colleagues?
Mr. Sathasivam: So, you mentioned Professor Krishnamurthy
Mr. Sathasivam: and Professor Ramachandran himself. Prof. Sastry: Heat Transfer,
Mr. Sathasivam: Yes. Prof. Sastry: Professor…Heat Transfer actually
these are the people, and of course, in
Chemical Engineering, then Professor Gopichand,
Prof. Kolar: Professor T. Gopichand. Prof. Sastry: Gopichand was working,
Yeah, Professor Gopichand was working.
Prof. Kolar: Professor K. Subbaraj. Prof. Sastry: K. Subbaraju.
Prof. Kolar: Of Prof. Sastry: Subbaraju, Subbaraju was working
Prof. Kolar: Dr. Sathyanarayana’s father. Prof. Swamy: Yeah, yeah.
He was the Heat Transfer professor.
So…so there was basically a good group of
people working here, in various departments. Prof. Kolar: Yes.
But the question is that the interaction
he wanted to develop, and that is the reason why he was
trying his best and he did a very good job as far as I am concerned.
Prof. Kolar: Sir, now that we are in this topic of research,
Heat Transfer of course, now we have information.
When we were research scholars, we saw the…a
Solar Thermal Power Plant in BSB;
this was in the mid ‘70s.
Professor Ramachandran went to
start the department of non…no no, DST as Secretary.
I think he started the Department of Non-conventional Energy Sources. Prof. Sastry: Yeah, right.
Prof. Kolar: So, what was his role in initiating the solar energy research, here?
Prof. Sastry: He actually…as I said, Prof. Kolar: Yeah.
Prof. Sastry: even the DST when he was Secretary,
with regard to this Regional Centre for Asia and Pacific,
regarding that matter, I visited Delhi, and
I met him in his office. He was so much interested in solar energy. Prof. Kolar: Yes.
In fact, he said casually, “Sastry, do you think
that, like Atomic Energy Commission,
in this country, should we have a Solar Energy Commission?”
Mr. Sathasivam: Right. Prof. Kolar: These were in ’73
Mr. Sathasivam: Right. Prof. Kolar: ‘74.
Prof. Sastry: This was in 1974-75 time frame. Mr. Sathasivam: Yes.
He was thinking, then…I just casually of course,
because I had this freedom with him to… Prof. Kolar: Yes.
Prof. Sastry: have talk, I just…I said, “Unfortunately we should
not…we should first of all develop
a total overall plan for the energy in the entire country.”
For example, energy comes from you know, solar and of course,
from fossil fuels and hydro
and all…what are our resources available in each
one of these areas, and what is our projected
growth rate and what is the amount of
our needs, so far as energy is concerned.
I said, “Already right now, we have…”, actually
at that time, Ministry of Power, Ministry of Water is different.
Prof. Kolar: Ministry of Coal. Prof. Sastry: Coal is different, coal is different.
So, each person actually is…atomic energy of
course, anyway is different.
So, each person actually is having…
and each area is having its own empire, so to speak.
So to say solar energy, wind energy
will become another…Wind Energy Commission.
So, can we avoid that?
He said, “No no, I was just intellectually I was discussing.”
So, what I am trying to say is, Prof. Kolar: He had.
Prof. Sastry: He had that. Prof. Kolar: Absolutely.
You know he was looking into the future, and in that
context only, we also had actually solar
Prof. Kolar: Yes 10 kilo watt thermal power plant. Prof. Sastry: 10 kilo watt station
actually developed here, probably that is the first one
Prof. Kolar: I think so, it is the first one. Prof. Sastry: First one.
Prof. Kolar: Solar energy research, again, to the best of
my knowledge, started in IIT Madras.
Mr. Sathasivam: The first in the country, sir? Prof. Kolar: Yes.
Prof. Sastry: Yeah, first in the country. Mr. Sathasivam: Right.
Prof. Kolar: Definitely in the IIT system and the educational institutions,
and there was no…he started the Non-Conventional Energy Centre
which now is MNES. Professor Ramachadran started. Prof. Sastry: Yeah, he started that one.
Mr. Sathasivam: Right. Prof. Sastry: Actually, earlier, there was some…
in the area…in the…in the department under the National
Physical Laboratories and physics area,
some work was supposedly…we have done in the solar.
Mostly there were actually solar cookers, solar
water heaters and that kind of thing.
But not in terms of producing energy. Prof. Kolar: Power
Prof. Sastry: Power. Prof. Kolar: Yeah, Professor Ramachandran was a man of vision,
he initiated so many programmes for the country.
There was slightly shift focus, because you also…
for the Founder Professor of the Educational Technology Cell.
Today, this is a very big thing again
and through that cell we have the NPTEL
Programme which is extremely popular in the country and
now it’s simply expanding, but you are the originator
of that, can you say a few words about it?
Yeah, actually what happened was that…this happened
actually in 1985 or ‘86 Prof. Kolar: Professor Srin…no…
Prof. Kolar: Professor Indiresan? Prof. Sastry: That was in ‘86 and ‘87
because I took over as Head of the Department in 1986. Prof. Kolar: Yeah.
So one day, in 1987 or something,
one…suddenly just before the financial year comes to an end,
in January or so, we received suddenly a
fax message…the Director received a fax message
saying that they have got additional funds. Prof. Swamy: As usual.
Prof. Kolar: What do you will do with this?
So, we are now giving actually 2 crores
to each of the 5 IITs…to develop an Educational Technology Cell. I see.
So, it came, first meeting actually took place
in Delhi, and I think Professor Raina
from Electrical Engineering Department, he went.
They thought nothing will come out, but then a
few days later, suddenly another fax comes and says,
“Send your representative with complete plan as a fraction.”
So then, Professor Srinath, who was the Director at that time,
he asked Raina, he said, “I am not interested, nothing is
going to happen, nothing.” Unfortunately
or fortunately, I happened to be in Director’s
Office at that time, because I was trying to go
to Delhi for…in connection with my UNESCO Centre.
So, he said, “You go.” Professor Raina said, “You go.”
I said, “What do I do with it, I don’t know?”
He said, “You study, these are the materials, you just
do this. This is what they want.”
So, I worked on it for 2-3 days: tried to at least
bring up some questions, you know what
exactly is going to happen and all.
So we…I attended the meeting.
Then it appeared to be, that they are in a hurry to give funds,
and they did not have much idea,
we also did not have much idea.
So, anyway they are giving the funds,
so, let us create the infrastructure.
And other people later on you know will take it up and...
So, that is how it started.
So, as soon as I came…luckily for me
because I was heading the department,
there was space constraint you know, nobody is willing to
give any…for studio and all that.
So, because of the Mechanical Sciences Block, you know
I was the Head of the Department…under our control,
there was one 356. Prof. Kolar: MSB.
Prof. Sastry: MSB 356 room number. Prof. Kolar: Yes, yes.
Prof. Kolar: It was there for a long time since we shifted to this place. Prof. Sastry: Yeah, it was actually a drawing…this thing,
because by the time, 5 year programme
became 4 year programme, a lot of drawing
instruction was cut from the B.Tech. programme.
So, several of these drawing halls became actually… Prof. Swamy: Yeah, yeah.
vacant, and luckily for us, you know I was able to put it
in the department, and the department very
generously agreed; they did not contest, they said, “Okay,
you take that one”, and then we prepared that studio.
I remember a lot…how much time you spent on getting
the equipment from Japan, the Sony equipment.
You also had the first recruits from that.
Prof. Kolar: Our Ravindranath Mr. Sathasivam: Yes.
Prof. Kolar: was one of the first recruits at that time. Prof. Sastry: It had to go to the
board because basically what they
said is, “Okay, you are creating certain…you know, cameraman, producer
these are not names not normally not available in the IIT system.” Mr. Sathasivam: That’s right.
Prof. Sastry: IIT system. So, what is their career growth?
Supposing you take somebody else, how is he going to grow?
I said, “I don't know.” Prof. Kolar: At that time…
But that time…but with luckily because of
the you know, the generosity of the board as well as the
Director and all the people concerned,
they said…they said, “We will give you just three people:
one cameraman, producer and some other…”
Mr. Sathasivam: So, they were…were you producing videotapes of courses or? Prof. Kolar: Yes.
Prof. Sastry: Yes, courses basically. Prof. Sathasivam: Because it was pre-internet and so on.
Prof. Sastry: Yeah, basically, the idea was to Mr. Sathasivam: Yes.
Prof. Sastry: get for example, lecturers and professors from
various departments, make tapes
on the subject matter, that is basically…
take a subject, you know like a Physics.
In that you would…for example,
undergraduate programme, there is a first year or second year Physics,
the person…the professor actually gives some series of lectures.
So you, for…for a semester, let us say total
about 30-40 lectures you give.
So you make them into about 20 or so, lectures. Prof. Kolar: Yes.
So that the concepts can be explained
by the experts, and send them to various other engineering colleges
if they want to…practically for free.
Mr. Sathasivam: So, these copies were disseminated to colleges. Prof. Kolar: Colleges, yeah.
Prof. Kolar: So this was much before NPTEL came in. Prof. Sastry: That is the
before NPTEL, that is the idea. Mr. Sathasivam: I see.
Prof. Kolar: Yeah, yeah [Inaudible] Prof. Sastry: So, that is
That is how the first…I think the
Professor V. G. K. Murti, Professor Roshan and
Prof. Kolar: Lots of people. Prof. Sastry: few others started…
Prof. Swamy: …50 rupees books.
Prof. Sastry and Prof. Kolar: No no, tapes.
Prof. Sastry: Video tapes.
Prof. Kolar: This was in the…there is a studio that was there in the MSB.
Mr. Sathasivam: The legacy is still there I think.
Prof. Sastry: In fact. Mr. Sathasivam: I think there is still a studio there.
Prof. Sastry: Studio there and it also…we soundproofed it.
We have to…we had to bring experts to soundproof it. Prof. Kolar: Yes, yes sir.
Sir, now we are on this topic of Centre,
you are also aware that the Industrial
Consultancy Centre, which is now the ICSR
was started, and also there was Engineering Design Centre.
Prof. Sastry: Yes. Prof. Kolar: Today we have a Department of Engineering Design.
So, these two are ahead, I mean. Prof. Sastry: Yes.
Prof. Kolar: You started this, can you…your experience with this?
Prof. Sastry: Actually, when I was heading the Department,
the Engineering Design Centre in the…
there was an Engineering Design Centre in the
Department of Mechanical Engineering.
And I don't know the starting time,
probably, it was there for a long time,
because basically 1970…’70
when I joined it was still…it was there at that time.
It was there. What that Engineering Design Centre had was
people from Physics background
and Mechanical Engineering background
and the people from the Physics Department
are also basically in the area of optics.
Optics. So, when…1987 or so,
Professor Srinath said, “What is this,
what is this Centre doing here?”
So, let the physicist go to the Physics Department
and the other people go to Mechanical Engineering Department. Prof. Kolar: Mechanical.
There was obviously, you know, there is a
Prof. Kolar: Different opinions at that time. Prof. Sastry: Different opinion
kind of thing with the Physics Department…our department, [Inaudible]
but we…we have to put through the
Departmental Consultative Committee, we did it
and finally, with the understanding that
the each departmental staff strength
will not be affected. These people were allowed to Prof. Kolar: Yeah.
Prof. Sastry: shift two departments. Prof. Swamy: Because that is Professor Sirohi
Prof. Sastry: Professor Sirohi. Prof. Kolar: Professor R. S. Sirohi,
Prof. Kolar: then Dr. Chennabasavayya from Mechanical Department. Prof. Swamy: I know, I know, I know.
Prof. Sastry: Chennabasavayya came…Kalam Prof. Kolar: Kalam…Kalam was there.
So, these people came to Mechanical Engineering Department.
So, they joined the Machine Design group and so forth.
So, that is how the…but Engineering Design Centre
used to work for some time,
but their collaboration with the industry
in most departments, was basically very very
Prof. Kolar: Yes. Prof. Sastry: small at that time because
the culture still did not develop to that extent right,
like for example, today. Prof. Kolar: Today.
Absolutely. How about the inter…ICC
Professor Wagner was the first person. Prof. Sastry: Yeah.
Professor Wagner was the first person,
I think the second person who…to take over
from him was the…Professor Narayanamurthi.
Prof. Kolar: Narayanamurthi. So this was when Professor Ramachandran was there
Prof. Kolar: or after that? Pandalai. Prof. Sastry: Professor Pandalai. Professor Pandalai was there.
Because Pandalai took over in 1973, I think.
Prof. Kolar: Yes. December 10th. Prof. Sastry: November or December. December, December.
So, he…during his tenure only,
the Heads of Departments, you know the deanships
were created and all. They were not called ‘Dean’ at that time,
it was called ‘Professor-in-charge.’ Prof. Swamy: Yeah.
Professor-in-charge of Industrial Consultancy Centre.
Professor-in-charge of academic courses, like that. Prof. Kolar: Yes.
So, then later on it…it formally became
Prof. Kolar: Dean. Prof. Sastry: Dean. So, the
senior most Heads of Departments actually
were requested to occupy these
new Professor-in-charge positions.
And Professor Narayanamurthi became the
Prof. Kolar: He became. Prof. Sastry: Professor-in-charge at that time.
So, I think this took place around ‘75 or ‘75. Prof. Kolar: ‘5.
Prof. Kolar: Professor Pandalai was the Director at that time. Prof. Sastry: Pandalai was the Director at that time.
Now as you know it has grown into a very big Centre.
So, lots of the…the seeds for today's Prof. Sastry: Yeah.
activities of IIT Madras,
obviously, in ‘70s and ‘80s because of some
very visionary people and their efforts.
So, slightly shifting focus,
you were also Chairman of the Vanavani Committee.
Prof. Sastry: Yes. Prof. Kolar: What, what was the situation?
What were your contributions there? Prof. Sastry: Yeah, Professor Indiresan
actually…one day called me and he said,
“Will you take over the Vanavani School?” Prof. Swamy: Okay.
So, I said, “It so happened my children also were going to
Vanavani and Vanavani actually had a very good reputation
in the city at that time…was one of the best schools
because…primarily because Mrs. Peter was the principal.
The…excellent principal. So,
she brought up the reputation like anything.
So I thought, okay, but unfortunately,
the funds availability was not very high, number 1,
second thing is the employees…
there was a rule in Vanavani School
that 50 percent of the children must be from…from the IIT,
and every child must be every child
requesting admission to Vanavani from within IIT,
he or she…she should be provided.
So you cannot deny the admission.
So that was the condition.
So, usually we used to have approximately
about 1800 to 2000 children.
So about 1000 or so, used to be from
within IIT, and 1000 from outside.
So, what happened was, there was a
large demand from the Employees Association
that earlier there used to be ISC system
the Union School Certificate… Mr. Sathasivam: Yes.
Secondary Certificate System. But they wanted to
make it into a State Board.
So…so…so there was a big problem because
the State Board means, the…they said they had
alternatives: either to run it as a private school
with State Board this thing,
or hand it over to the state government,
in which case the teachers employed…
all these people will be employed.
Control will be completely only by them,
the transfer the…this thing, and second…thirdly,
more importantly, the medium of instruction should be Tamil.
And because of the nature of our
institution, lot of people were not willing to have the
Tamil-medium instruction in the school. Prof. Kolar: I see.
So therefore, what to do?
So we have to have it, and the
funds availability was not very high.
So, prior to taking over as Chairman,
I was on the Management Committee for 2 years.
So I knew the problems. So therefore,
what we tried to do is, I introduced the thing which is…
initially there was some resistance;
basically what I said was,
“For providing all this infrastructure, you know,
free electricity, free water, free furniture,
free buildings and everything from the IIT
is a perquisites that is being given for the staff of the IIT.
But why should the outsiders
enjoy these things at the same tuition fees?”
So I said, “Tuition fees we cannot
differentiate: outsider or insider.”
So what I said is, “The establishment fees
we charge the outsiders. 150 rupees per year
per year.” Prof. Swamy: I see.
So if 1000 people were there, 1.5 lakhs was coming.
So I said okay, we now… Prof. Kolar: That was a…that is a large
Prof. Kolar: amount of money at that time. Prof. Sastry: That is a large amount in those days.
So that, we can increase the infrastructure. Mr. Sathasivam: When you say
those days it is the 1980s or
What period was your association with? Prof. Sastry: It is ‘80 to ‘84.
That was when the question of the mode arose
as well. the ‘81 or so, the period when…
Prof. Sastry: Which one? The… Prof. Kolar: Mode…that problem with the
Mr. Sathasivam: The ISC or the State Board...
Prof. Sastry: Yeah, in fact, which I changed…the system only from Mr. Sathasivam: That was the time.
Prof. Sastry: this previous one to State Board. Mr. Sathasivam: Yes, yes, yes, yes.
Prof. Sastry: State Board, that means ‘plus 2’ so called plus 2. Prof. Swamy: Yeah yeah yeah
Prof. Swamy: Of course. Prof. Sastry: Plus 2. And also around the same time,
the IIT also from a 5 year programme,
It changed to 4 year programme. Mr. Sathasivam: That’s right.
So, because of that, there was some surplus
lab facilities and here I must really
thank actually Dr. R. Srinivasan who was Physics…
he was Deputy Director at that time.
Deputy Director. He was very very cooperative, very nice.
He said, “Some of these experiments and all these things…
now that there is a plus 2,
let the school kids, you know, have the
advantage of these experiments.”
So he shifted actually some of this
equipment and all that…that
for Chemistry, Physics experiments.
He allowed us to use…the…
So that way, we were able to develop the
science labs in Vanavani.
In fact, which became a…which caused tremendous envy to
a large number of external examiners
Prof. Kolar: Yes. Prof. Sastry: Who were coming to examine our…our students.
Mr. Sathasivam: Yes. Prof. Sastry: Because each student was given actually one particular lab,
I mean, table, experiment, 48 students were there
in each section and each person actually had a…
under the table there is a shelf and everything,
they can put their stuff there.
We created that one.
So the establishment charges are 150,
what we tried to do was to…
how to…how to I wanted to
separate the primary school, secondary school,
and higher secondary school, in three units.
So for that primary, we wanted to shift from the
same place to another building which was there.
So, we wanted to have a top floor to construct that one.
Luckily for me, our managing committee
had Mr. Malayalam…was the Prof. Kolar: He was the
Prof. Sastry: Executive Engineer. Prof. Kolar: Executive Engineer.
So, I requested him, “Can we borrow some
bricks and cement and sand…things like that,”
Then there used to be Centre for Rural Development.
Prof. Kolar: Yes. So, Centre for Rural Development Head,
Dr. Radhakrishna I asked him…
they were doing some research about the Fibre-reinforced
concrete: FRC. Fibre-reinforced concrete,
which is a cheap material,
relatively speaking, compared to Portland cement.
So they were actually…
So they said, “Okay, why don't you use it?”
In that, the chicken mesh
you know, is the reinforcement, not the steel.
So, using that, we constructed. I think
today, still it is standing.
So, that we constructed, made rooms,
and the primary section was shifted there.
Mr. Sathasivam: Now this is within Vanavani, sir? Prof. Sastry: Within Vanavani.
Mr. Sathasivam: Right. Prof. Sastry: So basically, we borrowed the material from IIT,
Mr. Sathasivam: Yes. Prof. Sastry: Money, so far as these establishment charges
from the outsiders. With that, we were able to
bring the financial health of the school
Mr. Sathasivam: Yes. Prof. Sastry: to a reasonably good level.
Mr. Sathasivam: Yeah. Prof. Kolar: Sir, it’s interesting you mentioned CRD
because we were also there at that time.
Professor Indiresan started. Prof. Sastry: Yes.
You mentioned Dr. Radhakrishnan. He…you were…you were
talking about this son of Professor Bhagavantham Prof. Sastry: Son of
Professor Bhagavantham, yes. Prof. Kolar: who was in charge of the CR…
Prof. Sastry: He was Physics professor here.
Prof. Swamy: Hostel. Prof. Kolar: Yes. So, can you say something about the Centre?
The idea was… Prof. Sastry: The idea…
Prof. Kolar: From from Professor Indiresan at that time. Prof. Sastry: Yeah.
Prof. Sastry: Basically, the reason is that, you know
the…the national political situation
was such that you know, people wanted to have
always something connected to rural, rural, rural, rural area.
So, Professor Indiresan wanted to have a Centre
for Rural Development in the…in the there,
how to use for example,
whether for cooking purposes, or for
house building purposes, or whatever.
What kind of experts in our technology…
technological institutions? How they can actually
help the rural people
using the local substances and materials?
How we can improve their living conditions?
So as a part of that, they were taking several projects.
In fact, the energy also they were doing
something…wind energy also later on came because of that. Prof. Kolar: Yes.
And then they were trying to
have this for cheap construction.
They were developing this particular
Fibre-reinforced concrete. They were doing some experiments.
And Dr. Radhakrishna said, “You know, it…it…it
stands and there is…we have already experimented, it is okay,
so you can certainly use this.
and… Mr. Sathasivam: It was also known as ferrocement...I und…I remember, yes, yes.
Prof. Kolar: So we will come to academics and research.
I see that you were associated with 7 Directors
starting from Professor Ramachandran
up to Professor Natarajan, Prof. Sastry: Natarajan.
Prof. Kolar: during your stay here.
And quite a few changes happened in academics and research.
As you recall, in your experience, what would you say
in the…from the academics point of view?
Some important developments took place?
The…the academic side, basically as I was telling the
the…the creation of the deanships.
For example, the…the academic courses and research. Prof. Kolar: Yes.
So, there is a Board of Academic Research,
and Board of Academic Courses.
So therefore, there is a…every department actually
is represented in each of these boards.
And they determine what will be the kind of…
the curriculum or the research material
that you can have; research atmosphere.
For example, when I became Dean of Research,
Prof. Kolar: That was 1990. Prof. Sastry: 1990. ‘90 to ’93.
During that period, the…
for one of the first things that I tried to do,
because at that time, the students were taking
a long time to complete the Ph.D. and the
reason for this long time was primarily because,
from the time of submitting the synopsis and Ph.D.,
by the time they get the reports and all that,
that used to take a long time.
So therefore, of course, because of the difficulties
of equipment and funds and all that kind of
thing, anyway some delay was taking place.
But more than that, even the processing of the work Prof. Kolar: Thesis.
Prof. Sastry: Thesis, was getting delayed.
So I tried to first of all, collect over the previous
several years, what was the time that is being
taken by each department in terms of…
because we thought, I thought the…after all the person
completes his Ph.D.
he should enter the profession as early as possible.
It’s a…it's not fair for us to keep the student for too long.
Prof. Kolar: After submitting the Ph.D. thesis. Prof. Sastry: After submitting the Ph.D. also.
So, when I did that, I found certain
lacunae in the processing.
So we tried to first of all improve that one,
and I think fairly…we were able to
do this number 1. Number 2 is the quality of the Ph.D.,
because a large number of Ph.D.s coming out at that time.
In fact, at that time the number of Ph.D.s coming out
was itself very small. Prof. Kolar: Yeah.
For example, in mechanic…in…in the entire engineering areas,
it was only 29 or 30 per year.
Whereas, much more…much larger number in the…
from the Science and the Mathematics Departments. Prof. Kolar: Science, yeah sciences.
So, the question is, what about the quality?
So the quality is…one way of determining the
quality is the…out of the thesis,
how many papers are being published, Prof. Swamy: Yeah.
in refereed journals. So I found that
that number was not very great.
So we tried to propose Prof. Kolar: Sir, in fact, some Ph.D. thesis went…
passed without any publications also. Prof. Sastry: Without any…
Prof. Sastry: there are several, in fact. Prof. Kolar: No it is very important because today there are
many…big guidelines for theses pub…even submission.
So, it…it started at that time. Prof. Sastry: At that time.
Because basically what I proposed was,
I discussed it extensively in the Board of Academic Research
and then we tried to find out, okay,
when you submit the thesis, the synopsis,
by that time, you should have published:
two journal papers, whether international or national
doesn’t matter, should publish.
In the Board of Academic Research,
they said, “It’s too tough.”
So we said, “Okay, one journal publication
and one conference paper.” Prof. Swamy: Yeah.
So finally, the Board of Academic Research agreed,
So we put it before the…and I…
we…I went to the…Professor N. V. C. Swamy who was Director. Prof. Kolar: Yeah.
He said, “It’s a good thing, we should…
but it…when it came to the Senate, Prof. Kolar: Yes.
It ran into opposition and they said, “No, no”
because a large number of cases in engineering particularly
the…the data collection itself will take a long time
to prepare the unit itself,
the experimental unit itself in the
fabrication and all that, it takes a long time.
So it's not possible to do this, but anyway,
finally, what was decided was,
at least one paper in a journal or a conference,
internat…refereed conference, Prof. Kolar: Yeah.
it should be published.
So that is how it started.
So the quality improvement of the thesis,
we tried to at least introduce,
but I think nowadays, I think it is very common…
lot of…nowadays and moreover the
availability of resources also is much more now,
compared to…at that time.
Prof. Kolar: Also, earlier times, if you send a paper,
it would be take two weeks to reach. Prof. Sastry: Yeah.
And they would take months for…you know
peer review, and then we have to again go back
to them. It could take even year or even more than that.
Why, for example, in our subject, the Heat Transfer,
the International Journal of Heat Transfer
used to cost 125 dollars per year.
But the…just imagine, in those days,
if you submit in an United States, for example,
if you submit a paper, by the time it is reviewed
and all this kind of a thing and it see…it comes in
the print, it used to take about 9 months to 1 year.
Prof. Kolar: Oh even there, in those days. Prof. Sastry: Even there, in those days.
Now, that particular journal comes by sea mail.
Mr. Sathasivam: Yes. So it used to take 4 months or 5 months sometimes.
And first of all, this is one journal; international journal.
They are not enough funds here, because I was
Dean of Research, I was also in charge of the library. Prof. Kolar: Oh I see.
Mr. Sathasivam: The library committee was trying to
Mr. Sathasivam: you know economize some of the. Prof. Sastry: Economize.
Mr. Sathasivam: Yes, I remember that Prof. Sastry: In fact, I was
Prof. Sastry: I was the Mr. Sathasivam: Yes, that’s right.
Prof. Sastry: Chairman of that committee: Library Committee.
Departments were asked to prioritize
the journals, if I remember right. Prof. Sastry: Prioritize
Prof. Sastry: prioritize for example, Mr. Sathasivam: Yes, that’s right.
even the…the…what is that…chemical index or something.
Prof. Kolar: Yes, yes, engineering index. Engineering…engineering index.
Prof. Kolar: We are…all the journals. Some of those things
you know, they said, you know,
“Why don't you have this one?”
Consequently, what I am trying to say is,
the funds availability was low,
in addition to that, even if for example,
I submit in…in…in…in Heat Transfer
let us say there half a dozen,
I can submit only…I can only subscribe
only to one journal; this one.
This also comes after one and a half years.
In other words, the…the subject
if I am looking at, in the journal,
is actually one and a half years old. Prof. Kolar: Old. Mr. Sathasivam: Yes, yes.
So, these are the practical difficulties
in research, and we were trying to somehow, you know…
but the idea was there that
we recognize these problems,
and we were trying to find some solutions.
And in that sense I think
there was a lot of cooperation.
Occasionally there will be some
difference of opinions. Prof. Kolar: Yes, yes.
But generally speaking, we had very good cooperation
in terms of…for example, the…the library.
The alumni said, at that time,
“We will construct a diff...library.
We will give you for construction.”
I tried to argue with the Professor…
Director at that time, Professor Swamy.
Library is not the building, it is the books inside.
Now as Library Committee Chairman,
I am cutting down the…
what is the point in having a big building?
Prof. Kolar: And there is no money to buy the books. When there is no money.
So is it possible, please consider
whether you can have a fund
that the alumni gives,
out of which you know, you can
spend for the journals.
But of course, for the…it could not materialize,
but what I am trying to say is that,
that used to be the difficulties Prof. Kolar: Yes.
in…in…in Prof. Kolar: Absolutely.
in conducting research or…
these are the difficulties.
So…but anyway, it was basically,
it has come a long way now.
So in terms of academics,
I remember during those times
the credit system was introduced,
‘Best Teachers’ awards were being given,
and you were…you received that,
and also student feedback. Prof. Sastry: Yes.
So could you say something about this? Prof. Sastry: Actually
the…it was not very…in an organized way,
but I think Professor Pandalai was the
first person to…to think of
some kind of a teacher evaluation.
He was the first person.
So he apparently…I don’t know
how he did it, but he collected
a lot of information from
some of the very good students
in each department. In each…at…at…at every level.
And after getting that information,
he identified some people from
each department as ‘Best Teachers.’
And he put up these names
before the board, and the board
said, “Yes, it is a good idea,
and… Prof. Kolar: Because there is no committee,
Prof. Kolar: there is no other parameters. Prof. Sastry: So, there is no committee and all that.
Prof. Sastry: No no. Prof. Kolar: We don't know about that.
But Pandalai sent individual letters
to…”Glad that you know you are…you are…you are deemed to be a…”
Prof. Kolar: It was called the ‘Best Teacher Award.’ ‘Best Teacher Award.’
‘Best Teacher Award.’ ‘Best Teacher…’
Prof. Swamy: Excuse me, this was not known to everybody.
Prof. Kolar: Everybody. That's what I am saying,
that's what I am saying.
So, I don't know. Prof. Kolar: It was an almost individual thing
Prof. Kolar: that he did Prof. Swamy: I came to know of it
Prof. Swamy: because I started reading the board minutes.
Prof. Kolar: Okay. Prof. Swamy: Otherwise, I would not have known.
See that is the…that is…
that is why I said, Prof. Kolar: That’s all
it has come actually as a…we don’t know.
So in that process for example,
people like you know, V. G. K. Murti
and…I also got one letter and all that,
but I really didn't…
but ulti…formally it was started by
Professor Indiresan. Prof. Swamy: Yeah.
Professor Indiresan used to
issue a weekly newsletter. Prof. Kolar: Yes.
It come…used to come on Friday,
and in that newsletter,
giving all the other news about the IIT,
what is happening and all that,
at the end of the semester,
at the back of that newsletter,
They used to be a list of the Prof. Swamy: Correct.
best teachers in the order of ranking,
or…but each…not ranking as such,
but these are the best teachers,
and he created a criteria;
he asked for the feedback from the students. Prof. Kolar: Oh, okay
And some 7.5 or so
out of 10, whoever gets,
only they will be recognized as good teachers.
So that kind of system he developed
and he…it ran for quite some time,
I think several years it was…
but it is…at least open and it is a feedback.
That is…it was organized,
better organized. Prof. Sastry: Organized way in a
Prof. Sastry: systematic fashion Prof. Kolar: Today also
we have, some ‘Young Teacher and Scientists Awards’,
there is endowments from…not endowments,
some alumni have contributed
to recognize the best teacher. Prof. Sastry: Yeah,
Prof. Sastry: best teacher Prof. Kolar: Couple of them.
Prof. Sastry: In fact, on Teachers’ Day,
…in fact, I was there
as a Teachers’ Day Prof. Kolar: Oh…oh…oh you are
Prof. Sastry: chief guest you know in 2012,
Prof. Sastry: so I gave…gave the awards to
Prof. Swamy: Yeah he…he came as chief guest. Prof. Kolar: Oh, okay.
Prof. Swamy: He gave the awards to… Prof. Kolar: Sir,
how about the credit system?
It was a very major change. Prof. Sastry: Credit system
also was introduced by Professor Indiresan. Prof. Kolar: Okay.
Professor Indiresan. In fact, the
so called…the time table smart slot system. Prof. Kolar: Okay.
You know, ABC slots
and the credit system was introduced by…
Professor Indiresan is you know, is a man of
you know…is a very…constantly coming up
with ideas and it's very…
that way, he is also very dynamic.
CRD also was his idea.
CRD…[Inaudible]…CRD although which did not.
Prof. Sastry: Yeah, yeah. Prof. Kolar: For a long time it didn't work,
Prof. Sastry: Yes. Prof. Kolar: but the idea was…
Because I remember, as I had just then joined only,
I think. Indiresan was leaving. Prof. Sastry: Yes.
We thought CRD was…as…resource…
I mean, young faculty members, it’s a good idea,
IIT should be developing technology for India. Prof. Sastry: Yeah.
And if the rural people require
you know I remember they were talking about
developing a cart with tyres or something like that,
so that it’s easy for the farmer to use these things.
We thought, as very new faculty,
it's a very nice Centre,
but for a period of time for several reasons,
Prof. Kolar: it was Prof. Sastry: But yeah,
Prof. Sastry: he was very conscious of the Prof. Kolar:…stopped.
you know, how to interact with the society
and rural areas, and how to transfer
this technology to the needy…
this thing…particularly using the
local resources and local materials. Prof. Swamy: Yeah
Sir, you saw the documentary
in the beginning; we talk a lot about
Indo-German cooperation,
and we take pride in saying,
“Ours is the only institute
which still continues to have good
collaborative programmes with Germany.”
What was your experience,
and…either on your own
or as a witness to some of these things?
In a way this…this…out of all this
international cooperation in the establishment of IITs,
the German experiment is the best.
Not only because that…see for example, in IIT Kanpur;
they had only a 10 year programme,
and after 10 years, they stopped. Prof. Swamy: Yeah.
Prof. Kolar: I see. Prof. Sastry: Stop…there is nothing
no further…see at a mutual level
there may be exchange of
Prof. Kolar: Based on personal contacts. Prof. Sastry: Personal contact,
but as institutionally there is none.
Whereas, as you know very well, that
after the programme of first 10 years…
then they continued for another 3 years,
but most importantly, after some time
I think it’s about…see that
next three 3 years is extended,
and one more I think…2 years or so
they extended on the basis of
Joint Research Programmes.
Prof. Swamy: So we had even in 1987…
Indo-German projects…Indo-German projects. [Inaudible]
But the thing…in that, the
basic thing is that they explicitly recognize
that a Professor from Germany,
and a Professor from IIT,
they are basically equal people,
in other words…in that sense, that is the…
Prof. Kolar: I see. Prof. Sastry: very important aspect
in other words they said, “Okay,
now IIT Madras has developed to such a level
that we can consider them as actually…” Mr. Sathasivam: Partners.
Prof. Sastry: a part. So that is a very good thing,
so in that sense it was continuing,
of course, at the individual level
there is always there…that cooperation,
but it was formalized
and continued for a long time
and that experiment only was in
in…Germany experiment. Prof. Kolar: IIT Madras
Prof. Kolar: Indo-German cooperation. Prof. Sastry: For example, as I said
earlier you know in IIT Kanpur,
the IIT Kanpur Director at
that time, Dr. Kelkar when I was there,
he was all for young faculty joining
you know, to continue their Ph.D.,
but the American side said no.
So the kind of…you know, cut and dried kind of thing
was not here, because they said
they understood what exactly needed,
and how it can be gradually transformed,
taken to a higher level,
and during all this time
they continue the cooperation.
So in that sense I think it’s a…
the most successful experiment.
Because…because of my association with
both IIT Kharagpur and Prof. Kolar: Yeah.
Prof. Sastry: Kanpur. Prof. Kolar: IIT Kanpur.
In fact, one more IIT you missed;
I also taught for some time at IIT Chicago.
[Laughter] Oh, oh I missed out on that!
Then immediately after Ph.D., you were there for
Prof. Sastry: No no, when I was a faculty member
Prof. Sastry: at the University of Illinois, Chicago,
Prof. Kolar: Oh you taught… Prof. Sastry: I was teaching evening
classes at IIT Chicago.
Prof. Kolar: So you have had experience with IIT Kharagpur,
Kanpur, IISc Bangalore, IIT Madras,
and before UICC you were in
Prof. Kolar: some other university which had been shifted Prof. Sastry: Actually I
Prof. Sastry: joined this thing only Prof. Kolar: from
Prof. Sastry: University of Delaware, so my Prof. Kolar: Yes exactly.
Ph.D. formally actually is only
from University of Delaware.
But my Ph.D., because
that is another st…that has got nothing to do with this,
because my guide Professor Dr. Hartnett,
extremely competent person, very famous person,
Prof. Kolar: Yeah. Prof. Sastry: But highly short-tempered person.
And because of a difference of opinion with him,
as Head of the Department,
and the President of the University, Prof. Kolar: Yes.
Suddenly he said, “Oh you invited me
to come to this place…
now if you are ask…you are inviting
me to go out I will go out.”
So he resigned and went.
so. And he started the energy centre in Chicago.
Prof. Sastry: Energy…no, Energy Engineering Department. Prof. Kolar: Engineering Department.
Prof. Sastry: That is another story, of course about Prof. Kolar: Yes, yes.
Prof. Sastry: the University of Illinois…this thing, Prof. Kolar: Yes.
but that is a…there were not conventional
engineering departments, there were
actually 4 departments in engineering college
at that time, that was started in 1965:
Energy Engineering, Information Engineering,
Systems Engineering and Materials Engineering.
These four were the departments.
They were all supposed to be
interdisciplinary kind of thing.
Prof. Sastry: So Energy is a…department was there. Prof. Kolar: Yes.
After some time you know, because,
like everywhere, when you have this degree
from Energy Engineering, their employability;
the graduates employability will be a problem.
So they…after a few years
Prof. Sastry: they reverted back to conventional names: Prof. Kolar: [softly] Streams.
Mechanical, Civil and Electrical and so forth.
Sir, so, I want to have an overall picture.
You started as a student in IIT Kharagpur,
and ended in IIT Madras,
but in the last 20 years also
you have kept…you are observing
how…what is happening.
So what is your overall picture of
especially research in IITs? At that time,
how they developed and what it is today?
Obviously, there is a tremendous growth
that has taken place in IIT Madras,
both in terms of quantity as well as quality.
So far as the quality is concerned,
earlier it was generally of a lower quality
mainly because of lack of resources.
Was it a…really a problem, sir?
Prof. Sastry: As I said. Prof. Kolar: Because we always complain…lack of funds.
As I said earlier, for example,
the journal that we were talking about:
it takes about one and half years to get here.
Prof. Sastry: Now, what is happening in Prof. Kolar: Yes.
Prof. Swamy: Information Prof. Sastry: anywhere else in the world
is a matter of a few minutes.
The click of a button,
you can just get the information.
Prof. Swamy: Information was not available Prof. Sastry: So information availability
So therefore, in those days, you pick up a problem primarily from
Prof. Sastry: what is happening elsewhere. Prof. Swamy: Yeah.
Prof. Sastry: And that too, that is old information. Prof. Kolar: Old information.
And that naturally affects the quality.
Whereas now, instantaneously
you can get what is happening,
you are on top of this thing, plus,
now I see that a large number of
people are returning also from abroad.
In those days when I came back from India,
In fact, when I went actually after 4 or 5 years
to America for 3 months, to spend summer,
all my friends at that time were asking me…
they wanted me to say
that I was a stupid going back.
“How could you do that kind of a thing?”
So in other words, the…that was the feeling.
But…so in other words, coming here
Prof. Sastry: was actually very rare kind of thing, Prof. Kolar: Yeah.
in fact, even large number of faculty here
and also some of the students, final year students
who are applying for universities abroad,
they used to come and say,
Prof. Sastry: “Sir what…why did you come?” Prof. Kolar: “Why did you come?”
So now, but that has
become actually much more…people are now…
less number of people are going,
and more people are also returning,
which is a very good
Prof. Kolar: So, you must be very happy that today… Prof. Sastry: So,
that also increases the quality of the work
that is being done now, compared to that.
Today IIT Madras is number 1 in the country
for the la…in our scheme of things.
So in that sense it obviously,
you know, with time things will improve,
but they are improving actually quite nicely.
at a very good rate also,
because of the changes that are occurring
in the technology itself.
Mr. Sathasivam: Now what are the factors you see
Mr. Sathasivam: driving the directions of research now,
Mr. Sathasivam: so now that everything is level as it were.
Earlier the…you mentioned that
Mr. Sathasivam: there were restrictions Prof. Sastry: Yeah.
because of the availability of
Mr. Sathasivam: information and so forth. Prof. Sastry: Yes.
So now, the things are changed…
The things have changed. For example,
right now, the…the way I understand,
because I don’t know much about
exact individual cases, but generally speaking,
there is no lack of resources.
Even at that time, there was no lack of resources.
For example, when Dr. Ramachandran took over
as Department Science and Technology Secretary…
he is a Director, Dr. Gururaja
Prof. Sastry: who was also my classmate in IISc Bangalore. Prof. Kolar: Gururaja was there.
He came one day to…he said,
“Dr. Ramachandran is asking you know,
why there was no proposal from you?
I have got 7 crores with me,
so why don’t you take some projects?”
I particularly avoided writing any proposal
mainly because, you know, people will simply say
that you know, “It’s…he’s is a very close
student of Dr. Ramachandran,
so that is how he got the…”
so I was avoiding that.
So what I am trying to say is, that
basically the resources for IITs
in those days also was not a problem.
Resources…financial resources I am talking about,
but in terms of other resources are require to do research,
whether in terms of…
for example, getting something…some…some…some
piece of equipment done.
In those days restriction was, you have to first of all
go to the Central Workshops.
Prof. Sastry: You have to get it done. Prof. Kolar: Yeah.
Nowadays for example,
you can just go out and get it any time you want.
Yes sir. That is what we did as research scholars.
Prof. Kolar: We got everything done here. Prof. Sastry: Yeah everything done here.
See, in that connection, for sake of record again,
can you say something about the Gavi scheme?
The Gavi scheme I…
Prof. Kolar: This is a Indo-German Prof. Sastry: Yeah yeah.
Prof. Kolar: scheme for buying equipment from
Prof. Kolar: Germany for Indian research scholars…IIT Madras. Prof. Sastry: For Indian research scholars.
Yeah, I don’t know much about it,
I don’t know much about it, but only thing is
that sometimes it you know, led to some unnecessary
Prof. Swamy: Yeah. Prof. Kolar: Okay, yeah.
Prof. Sastry: complications and Prof. Kolar: Yeah.
I was…I asked…I said that
because as a great benefit, me and others,
we got our Hot Wire Anemometers
through that, I got the hot wires themselves,
Prof. Kolar: lot of equipment and all those Porous Plates. Prof. Sastry: Yeah.
As a single research scholar,
I was…greatly benefited. It…
I didn’t have to go to another place for funding.
Through our lab, we applied with his signature
and it took time, but we got them.
Lot of research scholars were benefited
through that scheme. Later of course, it was…
Actually, as I was telling you earlier,
this RDOEI project that we got,
and that actually became very significant
because, not only being the first you know
major sponsored research project,
but in 1974, the BHEL Corporate R and D was established…
Prof. Kolar: In Hyderabad. Prof. Sastry: in Chennai…in Hyderabad
Prof. Sastry: Hyderabad…in Hyderabad Prof. Kolar: In Hyderabad.
And the first General Manager was T. V. Balakrishnan.
So…he actually, you know, they all
came from the manufacturing side and practical side.
So when R and D was established,
now he had lot of problems:
How to…first of all start the work and how to staff the
people who are competent researchers.
So he is found somewhere…that this RDOEI project
we made something in Heat Transfer Lab here.
So he came to me and he said,
“What is this? Can you help us?”
So, we actually made for the cooling purposes
Prof. Sastry: and all that…what is called RC network analyser, Prof. Kolar: Yes, yes.
huge thing. And he said, “Please, you know, help us in this thing.”
So we were associated with this,
Prof. Sastry: and I think 3 of our Ph.D. scholars were actually Prof. Kolar: Yes, yes.
Prof. Sastry: taken by him. Prof. Kolar: Yes.
Prof. Sastry: And… Prof. Kolar: K. V. C. Rao was the first one, maybe.
Prof. Sastry: Yeah. Prof. Kolar: He was the faculty
Prof. Kolar: He did his Ph.D. on that Prof. Sastry: Ph.D. here.
So basically, that particular thing actually continued,
that first project…sponsored research project
continued for several years even afterwards.
With BHEL Corporate R and D in…this thing.
So, those are at least some good experiences
for us in terms of interacting with the institutions outside
the educational institution and…
Sir, very nice, any…any other?
We can go on talking to Professor Sastry for a long time but
Prof. Kolar: we have covered quite a few areas. Mr. Sathasivam: Yes.
Prof. Swamy: No, no, no, I just want…we have not told why Professor Sastry always cuts jokes. [Laughter]
Well I…yeah,
Prof. Swamy: Give a chance to… Prof. Kolar: I have been greatly benefited by my association
with him for last 47 years;
I was one of his first research scholars.
I just want to add to this, sir;
when I came from IIT Kharagpur after M.Tech.
So Heat Transfer was a new area,
and we were only 2 Ph.D. scholars
that day for interview: Professor Srinivasa Murthy and myself,
and you and Professor MBK were in this MSB.
I just…I walked towards you, and Srinivasa Murthy
walked towards MBK and that was it.
It was over evening we were…we had said, “We were selected.”
And all that…but when I joined,
I was so excited about the work that was going on
in the lab. I came from Kharagpur
where it would be a lot of experimental work,
but the research environment was great.
And I was doubly blessed that
Professor Ramachandran was the Chairman of the
first Registration Committee.
All the facu…Professor Subbaraju, Professor Gopichand,
Professor T. K. Bose. It was for me, you know,
for a new…I was hardly 21.
It was a very exciting thing that
I am in the midst of these, you know, great people.
And Ramachandran, in fact, he…he suggested
an answer to me when somebody asked a question,
I was not able to answer, he said,
“Why don’t you say this”, you know, and he remembered it
after several years, he said, you know,
“How are you doing? Your free conviction Ph.D. is over.”
I was greatly…I was a great admirer of him.
I talked about him in the one of the earlier…
and you were associated with him
and with 7 Directors. You held different positions.
So, you have so much, of course, to share with us.
The small…this thing:
Dr. Ramachandran used to have a room in our laboratory,
Prof. Sastry: and that room was occupied by Kolar. Prof. Swamy: Yeah, yeah.
Prof. Kolar: I…I…yes…yeah [Laughter]
Prof. Kolar: I said that. Prof. Swamy: He has told about it.
We would…just to add to that sir,
we knew when Professor Ramachandran is visiting the lab,
there is so much of activity,
Professor Sastry running around,
Professor Natarajan will come from there
T. K. Bose will come from there,
MVK, he won't stand,
he would just walk all over the laboratory
and talk to technic…everybody, “What…what are you doing?”, you know.
Prof. Kolar: He was such a great force. Prof. Sastry: But…but
you might have got the impression, that
Dr. Ramachandran was interested only
in the Heat Transfer Lab and department,
Prof. Sastry: but actually, what he was doing was… Prof. Kolar: Yeah.
9 o’clock is the Director’s…
normally he goes to the office.
8 o’clock he starts in his own car,
Prof. Sastry: you don’t know which department he will go to. Prof. Kolar: I see Prof. Swamy: he had come to our…
Prof. Sastry: Yeah, which department? Prof. Kolar: Unannounced
Prof. Kolar: he would come Prof. Sastry: Unannounced.
So there is no question of…any show or anything.
So he comes there, and talks to people,
many of them were actually faculty members
working for their Ph.Ds.
So basically you know, lecturers and so forth.
And he under…tries to learn from them
what topic they are working and all.
Probably to go to that lab, he may get a
chance only after several months.
But then when he goes there,
Prof. Sastry: “Last time you were doing this”, you know, Prof. Kolar: Yes
He remembers. His memory was phenomenal.
Prof. Kolar: Absolutely. Prof. Swamy: He used to meet students also.
Prof. Kolar: Yes sir. Prof. Sastry: Because I had the opportunity,
lucky opportunity of working with him
Prof. Sastry: even in the United Nations. Prof. Kolar: Yeah
Prof. Kolar: We didn't cover that actually. Prof. Sastry: Yeah
…in the United Nations.
And the…the respect that he commanded
you know, with the entire staff…in the…that is unbelievable.
Even Centre for Human Settlements in Nairobi.
Prof. Sastry: So basically, he is a different kind of person. Mr. Sathasivam: Right.
Professor Sastry, sir, thank you very much
for taking your time. You are very close by,
Prof. Kolar: so whenever we want, again we will come and talk to you. Prof. Sastry: Okay.
You have shared with us, lots of important things,
which are significant aspects of the IIT Madras history,
and that has come to us with your personal experience
and your own perspective. On behalf of the Heritage Centre
here, thank you very much.
We will try to keep in touch with you,
and…you have not yet visited the Heritage…this is the first time,
so maybe we…go around. Thank you very much.
Thank you for the opportunity
and I was not really a great important player
in the…in this thing, but at the same time,
you know, whatever my experiences and personal
Prof. Sastry: feelings and perceptions, I have tried to share with you,
Prof. Sastry: and thank you very much for the opportunity.
Prof. Kolar: Thank you. Mr. Sathasivam: Thank you, Professor Sastry.
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Prof. H. Md. Roshan in conversation with Prof. B.S.Murty.
Welcome Professor Roshan.
Thanks for coming and being with us in this campus,
your own campus, I know.
And, you have been a stalwart here,
in the area of foundry.
Spent a large number of years.
I heard that, '67 you came here.
And, I would like to know, first of all, about your...
What brought you to IIT Madras? Okay,
Professor Murty, I wish to thank you very much.
I wish to thank you,
I wish to thank Mamata,
and Kumaran and Rajaraman,
for giving an opportunity to speak to you today.
I am really very happy to talk to you,
and whatever questions which you have got. Thank you.
Thank you. You asked me about
what brought me here.
I will tell you briefly about my background and how I Yes, sir
came over here. We would like to know about your
background education before coming to IIT Madras,
and then what really motivated you to come here.
and then, you did wonderful work, I know that,
we will come to that a little later. Yes, Professor.
When I completed my high school,
it was called SSLC,
now it is not, no longer there.
So, I completed my SSLC in 1957. Where was that professor?
Where, where was that, which place? In Markapur.
There is one town in Kurnool district, Markapur.
And then, my mother and my dad, they sent me
to Loyola College, Vijayawada
it is called. Andhra Loyola College. Vijayawada Loyola College.
I know.
So, I went there. Incidentally,
I studied in a college which was just adjacent to that.
There is a government polytechnic
next to Andhra Loyola College,
and I did my diploma in that polytechnic, just...
I, yeah. just for your information, that is it.
I know that, it is in Gurazala. yeah.
I know about the polytechnic also. Wonderful, I mean very
well known place, Loyola College,
everybody talks about it.
So, '57, at that time,
there was no...the plus 2 was not there.
So, it was PUC.
PUC, correct. So, that was my, the last batch of the PUC.
PUC. I did my PUC, I got.
Then, I applied for engineering colleges.
I was underaged.
So, they could, I could not get into engineering college.
So, I had to do one year of BA over there. BA, okay.
So, and then, and then, '58 I completed. Okay.
And then, I applied for engineering college.
At that time, in Tirupati,
University College of Engineering, they started. So.
S.V. University, University College. Yes.
First batch, I belonged to the first batch of
Sri Venkateswara University College of Engineering. Was that the first
engineering college in Andhra, sir? No.
Anantapur, Anantapur is another engineering college. Anantapur, okay.
It is a government engineering college. What about Vizag,
Andhra University was not there those days?
That is Andhra University, that is separate.
So, so you, you belong to Vijayawada, that area?
Correct. So, okay.
Correct. So, so, I got a seat there.
So, 1959 to 1963.
Okay, that was 4 years.
No, it was actually 5 years,
it is a 5 year programme. Okay.
And... I heard, those days it used to always
to be, always 5 years. 5 years.
What happened was, at that time
the Indo-China War was there,
so accelerated course.
We graduated, instead of in, normally in June,
we graduated in December 1963 itself. Okay.
So, we graduated in December
and then, the master’s degree, they will not open
until the next June.
Okay. Then, we went and there was a our
principal, the special officer called
sir Ram Krishnan, he said
"okay, now you have completed this one,
would you be interested in teaching?"
So, I joined immediately Wow.
as an associate lecturer in mechanical engineering
in SVU College of Engineering. Okay.
I did for about 6 months.
Then, at that time, Indian Institute of Science,
Foundry Engineering was a very, very
sought after course for the students.
Under Mechanical Engineering department. Under Mechanical Engineering department.
they have... There, people were there
you know, Professor Seshadri,
I mean, who, with
whom you were there, Professor? 100,
So, I was with Professor M. N. Srinivasan.
M. N. Srinivasan. But how I went to
Bangalore is, in those days
the admissions of master’s degree,
there was no entrance exam Gate.
no gate. No gate. Nothing was there.
The only criterion is, you should be
first rank holder in the university. Wow.
Every first rank holder
if he applies, he will get it.
Elite group of the country
sitting there, wonderful!
You are one of those.
Only 10, only 10 students.
Only 10. All 10 were toppers of some university.
All. I belong to S. V. University, then, Okay.
There was the Madras University,
two people, Osmania University, one person
Banaras...like that, we were 10 people. Wonderful, wonderful.
Wow. So, that is how I went to
Indian Institute of Science, Bangalore.
The head of the, there
the foundry science was
in Mechanical Engineering department. Mechanical.
Head of the Department is
Professor A. Ramachandran.
A. Ramachandran. So, in the first day, when you go
you go and meet the head of the department.
That is the normal protocol practice.
When you enter the room, he will say,
"come in Mr. Roshan," he will say.
We will wonder, "how does he know my name,
for the, he, he did not see me
for the first time he is, he is asking."
Before we come, he reads
everybody’s etcetera etcetera.
And then, that is how I joined the foundry.
Then, Professor Seshadri
was my... Professor Seshadri, he taught me.
So, Professor Seshadri and Professor
Malur Srinivasan from
Mandyam Srinivasan. Mandyam Srinivasan.
So, I did my the masters' work
with sir Mandyam Srinivasan.
So, 2 years were over.
After... There was also one
aluminium foundry professor, K. S. S.?
Srinivasa Murthy. Murthy.
Professor, professor he was also... Srinivasa Murthy.
He also taught us.
Professor Seshan, Professor Mandyam Srinivasan, Correct, correct, correct.
Professor Seshadri. So, Professor Seshadri was...
Yes. Although, I did not do my master's,
but still he is a,
he is a wonderful teacher so, Wonderful teacher.
I was always associated. That was a
2 year programme, Professor?
2 year programme. Okay, those days it was
now, possibly, you are aware that now
master's became one and half year.
When I did my master's, it was one and half,
then again, now it came back to 2 years.
No, no, no, it was not
one and half years, it was 2 years.
So, it was 1964 and 1966.
Then, when we take the advice of the
Head of the Department, Professor A. Ramchandran,
he says, "you are a foundry engineer,
you should work in an industry."
No, no academics?
No academics etcetera.
So, then where are the jobs?
there are no jobs in...
anywhere. So, they say,
"go to Bombay, there are jobs."
We took a ticket, just took it, sat in the train,
went to Bombay, at that time
to search for a job.
So, then what happened was, then you...
No campus interviews, nothing, those days?
No campus interviews, nothing. Okay.
So, then? Now, things are all different.
Then, you should see in the newspaper
daily, in the daily in the morning,
and then, try to find out its advertisement.
Then, first I went to die casting foundry.
So, even at Indian Institute of Science,
I passed with distinction. Distinction. '
Again, I got the first rank. First rank?
In the MTech, ME. ME.
And then, I got, one person in
die casting foundry, he offered me a job.
But, it was a small shop.
Then, there is another company called
New Standard Engineering Company in Bombay.
It is a iron foundry,
with a Polish collaboration.
and then, about 400 tonnes of gray iron
and maximum weight of the casting is 20 tonnes.
So, they also make the induction furnaces.
Tagliaferi induction furnaces
and I went there and took the interview.
And they said, "okay, we will give you a job."
So, I got the job.
So, you spent just, looks like only 1 year
was it very hard job; that is what made you
come to academics immediately?
'67 you came to IIT Madras, I know. Yeah.
So, '66 to '67 just 1 year in,
That was a... in foundry?
That was due to my personal reasons.
In the sense, when I was doing my master's,
my dad passed away.
Okay, so. Sorry to hear that.
Then, what happened was, then my mother was in.
So, she was... So, you need to take care of her.
I was to, I had to take her, so she was ill.
So, 1967 my mother passed away.
So, I had to Okay.
shift my place from Bombay.
So, you came back to, closer to Andhra.
Then, what happened was,
I came down to my Kurnool
where my mother was there.
When she passed within,
I resigned my job in, in Bombay.
But, I need a job.
That is true.
So, there are, 2 openings were there.
Indian Institute of Science, Bangalore -
a lecturers' post. Okay.
And then, Indian Institute of Technology,
was a associate lecturers' post.
I applied for both of them.
And then, what happened was,
I got an interview in
Indian Institute of Science, Bangalore.
So, I was about to go over there,
but my mother was sick.
So, I said, "I will not go."
So, I... So, you missed the interview?
I missed the interview. Okay.
But. That was the... It was, it was good for me.
That was a blessing for IIT Madras.
I mean, we got you,
and it is amazing, amazing
to hear that. It was a, it was good
for me too. And then, what happened was,
I came over here,
and I attended the interview. Okay.
And then, during the interview,
Professor E. G. Ramachandran, they were there.
So, associate lecturer, Some 500 rupees
job etcetera, then they offered.
Then, they asked me, "okay, you are qualified."
Lecturer is only master’s degree,
there is no PhD requirement in those days. Requirement in those days?
So, they said, "why did you...
we had interviews recently for
the lecturers' post, Lecturers' post.
why did you not apply?" "I did not know.
So, why don't you offer me a lecturers' post?"
"No, no, no, we cannot offer, We cannot offer you...
because we advertised only for..." Well,
IIT Madras goes by advertisement.
"No, no, no, but
when the next advertisement comes, Next
advertisement. "you apply and take your chance, okay."
So, I got in 1967 September,
I got my associate lecturers' job.
I came over here,
that was the best thing that has happened to me.
And then, Professor E. G. Ramachandran
was head of the department,
he was very nice to me.
And then, one Professor Zeurn was there.
So, at that time, Germans were there, in the...all the...
I heard that, I heard that.
So, coordinate, although he is,
Professor Zeurn belongs to welding,
but still, he was in Metallurgy department.
Okay. So, he was coordinating the
Foundry activity. foundry activities, etcetera.
So, that is how I came to IIT.
So, that is how I answer your question about
how I came to IIT. That is wonderful, wonderful.
Yeah, wonderful. Was there anybody else
along with you, in the foundry area, those days?
Professor O. Prabhakar, for example,
he joined after you or much later?
No, he joined in later,
because '70...in the '67, I joined.
Then, '68 there was again,
as I told you, there was another
advertisement for lecturers.
Okay, this wass in 6 months.
I became a lecturer in '68.
Professor Prabhakar, he joined immediately, later. Okay.
By one year, one year later. So, the foundry division or
foundry research activity, or teaching
cum research activity started with you, here.
At that time, when I joined in '67,
there was no master's programme in foundry at all.
There was nothing, no,
it was all about the physical,
very strong in physical metallurgy. Very strong.
Professor Vasudevan, Professor Vasudevan... With particularly Vasudevan.
Vasudevan, Professor
E. G. R. himself. Sreenivasa Raghavan.
Professor E. G. R. himself.
They are all physical metallurgists. Correct, correct, correct.
So, but, Professor E. G. Ramachandran, he had a vision
that industrial metallurgy is... Sure, sure, sure.
I was the only person
who had a master’s degree in foundry. Sure, sure.
So, I knew the programme of
how to write the syllabus.
It is not a simple thing,
to write the syllabus for all the...
So, we started Industrial Metallurgy.
Industrial Metallurgy? MTech in Industrial Metallurgy. With the, with the 3 different.
M.Tech. ME in... ME.
In those days, master's, ME in. Okay,
No, still they used to call it as ME here. ME.
No, here, MTech. Sorry it is MTech MTech.
So, you started MTech in... MTech.
Industrial Metallurgy. Industrial metal...metal casting,
metal joining and Metal joining.
and metal forming. So, 3 divisions.
So, I was there for... You are, you are
kind of leading the. Yeah. Yeah.
metal casting... With of course, Professor E. G. Ramachandran
was the Head of the Department also.
That is how master’s degree, MTech programme
in Industrial Metallurgy was started.
But, at the BTech level also, were you
teaching casting, those days?
Of course, there was one course
called Foundry Engineering, in BTech Okay.
and, I used to take,
as soon as I came in '67,
first job that was given to me was
to teach that course.
And also, there was...industrial design also was there.
Okay, okay. So, I used to give the projects and...
But usually, in IISc you see that the
foundry area is under mechanical.
Why did that not happen here,
in IIT Madras, any...you have some ideas?
That I do not know.
Because, material science it can be, see,
So, somehow. It is a Metallurgy for some...
Metallurgy for some reason or other in
BHU or everywhere.
Even, even in Indian Institute of Science,
there is a Metallurgy department.
But, that was more academic oriented. Yeah.
Possibly, Yeah.
They thought that foundry is a
typically an industrial kind of a thing.
So. That could possibly.
Yeah mostly. Whereas,
Yeah, but is. Here it is
mostly, you know, there was a
lot of emphasis on industry
from the beginning, I heard here,
particularly, as you said,
industrial metallurgy as an MTech starting,
that itself would be
something which I...I do not think in IISC,
you can hear something of that nature.
It is all about the vision of the
heads of the department.
Because Professor A. Ramchandran
he was a heat transfer person. Ok.
So, in those days;
in those days to visualize,
so, he was always about industry.
Yes. He was always telling, "okay,
if you have a master’s degree, it's better to
serve the industry, to get... Industry.
to get the experience. Correct.
So, when I came over here,
So, '66 to '67 there was a faculty can register
as a PhD programme. PhD student.
So, I registered with Professor E. G. Ramachandran.
So, Professor A. Ramachandran was the director,
but still he used to help me.
Because, he is a heat transfer person.
My problem was, for the PhD,
thermal properties of mould materials
using the Shell moulding process. Thermal property, Shell moulding.
you will appreciate, even today,
determination of thermal properties is
extremely useful for solidification of
simulation softwares. Definitely, definitely.
So, in those days, he could visualize it.
And, Professor Seshadri,
Professor E. G. Ramachandran was my guide.
Yeah. So, he gave me a
lot of The whole microstructure
evolution depends on the
thermal properties, right. Thermal properties.
How, how fast it is cooling.
Yeah, Professor...Professor E. G. Ramachandran
really helped me with all my
PhD work etcetera. Good, good.
So, that I submitted my thesis in '71,
and then, all the... Were you, were you kind of first
PhD from the department?
Yes. I heard this.
I am the first PhD from the Metallurgy,
Metallurgy department. Wow.
You have so many distinctions.
And then, then what happened was, in '71. Wonderful.
So, there is an opportunity to...all the
faculty will be sent to Germany. Germany, okay.
So, in Germany, Geyser Institute, Aachen,
Aachen. is the premier institute in.
Correct. in Europe.
Before the second World War,
there were only two institutions,
Geyser Institute, Aachen in Germany
and Geyser Institute, Krakow in Poland.
Okay. These are the,
the best foundry research institutes.
So, It is easy from... You went there.
because it is a German collaboration,
So, I got an...it was called DAAD. DAAD.
So, German academic exchange service. DAAD correct, correct.
So, I got a this one, so.
How long was that about year or? 2 years.
2 years. It is, it is a 2 year...
Were you married by then, Professor?
I will tell you about that one also.
What happened was, '71 I went there.
Because, I submitted the thesis and left immediately.
So, my viva voce was not there.
So, you had to come back.
What happened was, in '72 my reports came,
I have to take the viva
and the same... No skype those days.
No, no skype, not only that one...
There was an advertisement for an
assistant professors' post.
Okay. You cannot apply for assistance professor post
unless you have a PhD.
Submission of a thesis
is not equivalent of a PhD. So, you have to Is not equivalent.
complete your viva, okay. I have to complete my viva.
Then only I will be considered. You can apply for a PhD.
I can be considered, it can be absentia.
You do not have to be. You can be absentia. Yeah, it can be in absentia.
So, what I did was, I flew.
from Germany. Yeah.
Just to take the viva voce
examination. Just for a week. Just for a week or so.
At that time I met my wife. Good.
So, we had our engagement at that time. Wonderful. Wonderful.
Then, '72. It was '72
Then, I went back again. Went back again.
There was a, there was a...
the interview for the assistant professors',
I was promoted to be
assistant professor. So, no, not even a telephonic interview?
No. It was just in absentia?
they just looked at your CV.
Yeah. And then, based on the CV.
Yeah, because I was already there
so there is, so, I became an assistant professor. So. Okay.
I became an associate professor in a similar fashion.
Yeah. At IIT Kharagpur.
Ok. So, in absentia, I was in Japan
doing something there.
Ok, nice to hear, Professor.
And then, then '73, I came back. '73
you came back. We got married in
in '73. '73.
And the next day, was my convocation.
My marriage was there on 9th,
10th was the convocation here. Okay.
So, we flew.
So, you both flew, okay.
And then. Then, I got the... Okay.
At that time, Professor Pandalai was the
Ok, so you got your PhD degree.
Director and then, Wonderful.
She was also there. Wonderful.
So, '73 I got my PhD. Then, I was busy because
I learnt quite a lot.
My experience in Aachen. In Aachen.
Very good. Was so...sand, there...
there I worked with the sand. Sand?
So, Professor Zeurn helped me.
Professor E. G. Ramachandran and Professor Zeurn, they helped
to set up a laboratory, so. Okay.
My laboratories in sand testing were the best
People always talk about you. Yeah so
in those days. When somebody talks about
Professor Roshan, it is sand.
Sand, so I was a consultant, so. You were seem to be a
stalwart in sand. Yeah.
Sand, because I learnt quite a lot
about sand. Yeah.
So, I was knowing
very much about sand. Sand is a...
sand also is a basic raw material for making the castings. Okay.
So, sand has to be extremely
pure in order to make those things.
So, I started my PhD students.
Okat, that is my start of PhD students, because
Okay. you cannot guide a student unless
you have a PhD. You have a PhD.
So, '73 obviously, I have PhD. Okay.
Then I had some...later on about 20 people
got their PhDs and did their... Did they Professor O.P. also
do PHD with you? No.
No, no, both of us did with
Professor E. G. Ramachandran, okay. Professor E. G. R. Okay, good.
So, then the '73, '73 to
'77, I was very busy working.
My wife looked after my house.
So, I was with my students.
So, my students were extremely good.
Day and night we were working etcetera.
So, quite a number of papers were
getting published and the students got them.
'77, there were again
interviews for the professors', professors' post.
Professors' post. Must be very young by that time, 35?
34, I was the youngest. 34, youngest professor.
I was the youngest.
Yes. One of the youngest professors.
Wonderful wonderful. Maybe the youngest professor.
Now, it is tough.
34 is not easy to become a professor here,
usually it happens between 40 and 45, or so.
I was 39 when I became a professor,
that itself was considered, in Kharagpur, very early.
Yeah. Good to hear that. So, 34.
And then, what happened was I applied for
the Alexander von Humboldt Fellowship.
Wonderful. So, I got a junior.
very, very prestigious fellowship.
fellowship I got and I had to go.
And then, my interviews are there.
So, I got my letter of professorship
In June. That you are selected for the ?
And next week I left for Germany.
And because of, I was, I am a professor,
so, they gave me senior fellowship; they upgraded.
Upgraded. My fellowship from
this one... Junior to senior.
Senior fellow, alexander.
Where were you, you are again in Aachen? University of Karlsruhe, here.
Karlsruhe, yeah. No I went to University of
Karlsruhe. Karlsruhe with Professor Makarav.
So, '77 to '78, I was there.
One and half years, although, 2 years, I came back.
So, '78 we came back.
As soon as I came back, Professor Narayanmurthi
was the director. Headship is waiting for you, I heard.
So, he called me one day, "you want to
take the headship?" "Of course."
Then, Professor Srinivas Raghavan was the
Head of the Department. Previous Head of the Department?
So, I became in '78.
And, '78 to '82, it was a pleasure.
It was a pleasure. Wonderful.
Not that is it was a...
wonderful experience for me
Correct. to lead the department.
and Head of the Departments'
job is very interesting.
You have got...you can do quite a lot of
Correct, correct. contribution.
So, that is the period. Can you can you just
recall a few major contributions that came
from you as the Head of the Department,
in the department?
We organized several seminars.
One of the seminars was an international seminar
Very good. with Professor Krishna Shastri on solidification
heat transfer, so.
Very good. We invited from all over the world.
Good.
There was a
metal processing seminar,
that is one of the contributions.
And I also, I feel very glad, one of my contribution is
Metallurgy seminar hall.
I just heard of that. Metallurgy seminar hall was
I believe, was my...
I did, I took a good decision to convert.
Yeah. Because, the ground floor
we had to, there was no seminar hall, we used to
True, true, true. organize any meetings
etcetera. Any meeting, any lectures for
visitors. So, Head of the Department,
Major contribution, very important
contribution. Head of the Department has the resources.
And then, he had the power, so True.
one lecture hall was converted.
It is a good decision, I believe.
So, that Yeah, we are all really enjoying that.
Yeah. Of course, you may be possibly aware
that, soon in about four, five months from now,
most probably March - April,
we will be moving
from the Mechanical Sciences block
to a new academic complex,
where we have been provided with
two floors. It is a five storey building,
where two floors are dedicated to Metallurgy.
So, all the, most of the facilities
from MSB, we will be moving there
including all the faculty members.
We have about thirty faculty rooms there,
four visiting faculty rooms,
things like that and
seminar hall, we may have to part with.
So, just...s,o next year if you
come, you would come to another seminar hall,
not to MSB 104 anymore.
That would belong to Applied Mechanics now.
So, Applied Mechanics do not have
enough space and they are also
growing in a big way.
So, the institute decided that MSB, that
part they will give it to Applied Mechanics
and then, we move to a new building.
Another contribution is,
ability to attract good faculty
to the department - Professor Padmanabhan.
He joined during your time? Yeah.
When I was the... Wonderful.
Who are the other faculty during your time?
Who joined as faculty?
S. K. Seshadri
Okay. Another Stalwart.
Yeah, yeah. Corrosion.
Yeah, yeah. Everybody knows.
Yeah he was, he was there.
Very good. So,
so, we had... it was a good this one -
attracting the good faculty and
then provide and also,
the building...the
infrastructure inside the True, true.
Department. You used to also work with a lot of
foundry industries here?
Another contribution, I believe is,
we had a system of external registration from industry.
Okay. So, I had
one Dr. Seshadri, M. S. Seshadri
From India Pistons. India pistons.
So, he is the chief metallurgist, so, Correct, correct.
he did his PhD with me.
And then, when I was
doing my master's, my engineering...
How I went to Indian Institute of Science is,
my metallurgy...the the person who taught me
metallurgy, Professor Rangaswami,
he did his master's in
Indian Institute of Science. Indian Institute of Science.
He only told us. Correct.
It is very difficult to get into this.
So, our interest was...that is how
I went to Indian Institute of Science. True, true, true.
And, Professor Rangaswami. That was my dream, when I was
doing my undergrad also.
And, Professor Rangaswami, he was a;
he was a professor, but he
wanted to become a head of the...the PhD.
So, he did his PhD with me.
My teacher, Okay.
became my student. Your
teacher became your student, very strange. So,
that was... Yeah, very unique
opportunity you had.
That was very nice. And later on, That is great, that is great.
another two of my classmates from
Your BTech Engineering. University College of Engineering,
they also got their PhD with me. With you.
And then, from Ennore Foundries.
Ennore Foundries. Now, I think, it is called Hinduja Foundry.
Correct. Ennore Foundries, so
there... one of my student, is now working there. Yeah.
Two people, Dr. Venkoba Rao,
so, he did his PhD with me.
Very good, very good .And, Dr. Janagan,
so, he did his PhD. Totally about 20 people
did their PhD with me. Wonderful, wonderful.
So, that was a good industrial
That's true, that's true. relationship.
Yeah. I heard, So.
for quite some time, people used to say
that you brought a very good industrial
phase to the department.
Yeah. Particularly in the foundry area.
Yeah. That is amazing.
Another major contribution is...
it is very difficult to deal with magnesium.
So. So, my student from...we had a
very good relationship with the DRDL,
Defence Research and Development. Correct.
So, one of my student, Dr. Sundarajan,
who was the who did his master's here.
He did his project work with me.
He became a scientist in DRDL. DRDL.
So, he wanted to do his PhD, PhD.
on a magnesium alloys. Very good.
At that time, Dr. Abdul Kalam
was the director of Okay.
DRDL. DRDL.
Later on, of course, a Air Vice
Marshal. Narayanan, also Ok
was there. They were all interested in
magnesium, because Wonderful, wonderful.
it is very difficult to import
Very good. magnesium
alloys. Plus, Very good. True.
at that time, they were developing Prithvi.
Prithvi, they wanted
Prithvi. a lighter one.
It is a magnesium...
Correct. case is a magnesium casting.
So, I was a consultant to DRDL.
So, they took me to...
Incidentally, Sunderajan, later
became director of NIT Trichy. I know, I know.
I am in touch, I am in touch.
Now, recently actually, Dr. C. G. K. Nayar,
who was also a student from here,
who was the chairman of HAL, he is talking of
starting a big, you know,
initiative on magnesium,
because magnesium, somehow,
slowly died down in India.
So, the particularly, not just the
casting of magnesium,
but the extractive metallurgy of magnesium,
and then taking it in a big way because,
both aerospace and also automotive industry are
thinking in a big way
to bring magnesium into their, you know, components.
So, so, I think, your initial contributions
are going to be useful now. Yeah.
So, I was very happy.
Good, good . One day,
I stayed in Hyderabad
for 10 days. At DRDL,
in the in their campus until Very good.
the casting is poured and
everything, so. Very good, very good.
That, I believe is
my, I was very happy to be associated Wonderful, wonderful.
with that project for the Prithvi.
So, that was the... Okay,
but at some stage you moved to US, I heard?
Yeah. Okay.
So, when was this, Professor?
What happened was,
I knew for the industry to be, this one,
ISO 9000 is very important.
So, I had
an Industrial Consultants Centre.
So, at that time, Professor Raju was the
Dean of the Okay.
Industrial Consultancy also.
So, to get a auditor certification,
So, you have to
pay about 20000 rupees in those days, okay. Okay.
So, I requested whether I can use my
industrial consultancy money...my own this...
So, he said, "you can go to Delhi."
So, I went there, to Delhi
to get certified
Certified. as an ISO 9000 auditor.
Auditor. Okay, I am, I am a lead auditor.
So, you are a lead auditor. Lead auditor course.
So, that is this one.
Okay. Plus, I also had,
at that time, solidification simulation,
I had my small packages etcetera.
So, I used to go to US
to present my papers etcetera. Yeah, in conferences.
So, one of my friends,
when he came over here,
just gave me a resume,
just to see whether there is an opportunity.
Before that, actually, I
applied to one University in Canada.
Okay. I had an offer, okay, to go,
but, meanwhile, Maynard Steel Casting Company,
they were looking for a person
Okay. Who is familiar with solidification
simulation software. Simulation
Plus, they have also wanted
an ISO 9000 auditor skills.
I had both of them. Okay.
So, just I, so I took 2 years of sabbatical,
Okay. in those days. So, I took the sabbatical
and... Which year was that?
1993. So, '93, okay.
1993, we went there
and then, So, 26 years after you joined here.
Yeah. Okay.
And then, after I went there,
so, my children were there...
so, they wanted to stay over there. Stay, yeah.
So, then. So, I retired So.
so, in 1995. Okay.
I retired. And then, so, After 2 years of sabbatical.
stay...stay put over there in the...
I was a director of quality.
Now, I have been the chief metallurgist
for the last 5 years. Yeah.
My wife also works with me.
Okay. So, and so, she develops
all the documentation for
So now, it is about 25 years ISO 9000.
Yeah, yeah . you have been there?
So, what was the major difference
that you found when compared to the industry
here and the industry there? Yeah,
what I notice is,
the industries remain the same, but
from the academic if you want to see,
especially in steel...
Here, metal casting and metal joining. Steel
metal joining is a part of casting.
Yes. There is nothing like metal joining
separate and metal casting.
So, and heat treatment. Heat treatment.
So, as a chief metallurgist, my job is...
one third is to specifications.
Specification, specification, specifications, that is it.
The second one is, metal joining.
Metal joining. Even, how to get a
qualified procedure.
That itself is a... Correct.
we do not teach in academic. Today, True, true.
if I were to be a professor,
I believe, it will be slightly...I will design a
programme in such a way,
ideally suited for the industry.
So, metal casting programme. Metal casting.
So, incorporate metal joining
Metal joining. and teach specifications.
Specifications, ASTM specifications. Sure.
They didn't specifications...it is all about specifications.
And then, heat treatment.
Heat treatment here is a as a separate, as a
Metal casting. Heat treatment is a separate,
it is all about heat treatments. Steel is nothing but
Obviously, obviously. heat treatment.
So, that is the. And of course, now
now with the industry in
US, the only thing is,
we have to make money, thats it. Yeah.
They do not care
who you are, what, as long as you generate
wealth. Correct, correct.
You generate wealth only if you can
help the company to make money. Make money.
So, you should have the skills of Of
how to help the company... Making quality product.
good quality products. And then, less defects.
Less defects. More productivity, yeah,
and more like that.
You raised this...
that is one of the things -
productivity is the key.
Key, productivity and... Obviously.
You may not know, many people, many industries,
do not even have the metrics of
how to define the productivity, okay.
Many people just - man hours per tonne.
So, that itself, there is a
quite a lot of scope. You may not believe,
that on average,
US industry or any industry lose
about 5 to 10 percent of their revenue
in quality cost. Quality cost, yeah.
It is a enormous amount.
In a 30 billion dollar industry, it is about Correct.
three billion per year. Three billion per year.
that is amazing. So, I made a
presentations and publications etcetera,
how to improve the productivity?
So, I am also, I used to teach
Six Sigma... You are also associated with
some academic institutions there in US?
I am an adjunct professor in
University of Wisconsin, Milwaukee. Okay.
Okay, I work one day in a week. I work
4 days in this one, 4 days in the industry.
So. And, 1 day in...
So, so what happened was,
the MagmaSoft, I have been using
for the last 25 years.
So, the president of MagmaSoft said,
"I will give 5 licences, each."
Licence cost 80000 dollars.
So, he gave 5 licences to UWM,
and said, "Roshan, teach us
the solidification." Okay.
So, that is how I went there.
So, I teach solidification simulation
for the graduate students
and undergraduate students and also,
the software, I maintain. Simulation software.
and then, I also assist the students for...
advisor for PhD students.
So, I have a student working on
fracture toughness of low alloy steels
using in mining industry.
Wonderful. There is another project also,
I help is, surface alloying.
Laser surface alloying,
particularly? No, it is not a laser surface.
See, the valve bodies
are generally WCV castings, plain carbon steel.
But, when a water flows,
corrosion is a major issue.
Stainless steel is very expensive. Very expensive.
So, is it possible to surface alloy?
Surface alloy. So, we are
working with...almost we are successful,
using casting process. Oh, okay.
In the sense, we take a course
and then apply,
taking a regular wash
and put nickel powder, chromium powder
and those things etcetera, Alloys.
and then cast it.
Cast. So, it will absorb only on the surface.
It is only on the surface, very good.
So hydro, how to change the
hydrophobicity of this one?
Very good. So Botany, so I asked,
because, how to create a hydrophobic surface. Surface.
So, I asked my wife one day this one etcetera.
So, you know the leaves? Yeah, yeah
Lotus leaves etcetera? Now, it is a big,
Nanotechnology that is a big thing. Yeah.
People talk of self cleaning.
For example, on these glasses
people do what is called, we work
to some extent, Nano Titania coatings
for bringing super hydrophobicity
on surfaces. This is the another new area.
Yeah. Good.
So, another contribution which I
made to US foundry industry is,
when I went there,
my daughter is a
Lotus nNotes specialist.
So, before going itself,
I was working on expert systems over here.
Okay. I had my students working on expert systems.
So, then I went to American foundry society,
I used my expert system using Lotus Notes.
And then, they were very much impressed.
So, in 2001, they gave me
award of scientific merit
based upon my work on
Very good. expert systems. This one.
Expert systems. And, later on,
I was working, my son...
so, he is an IT.
So, he developed a
learning management system
for American Foundry Society.
Online courses, I started
using his... Ok. very good very good.
So, then, they were impressed.
So, they gave me
the go AFS gold medal, the highest
award of AFS, in 2006. Foundry Society.
Very good. As a gold medal...
And also, CMI Director’s award,
in the same year.
So, two awards I got from...so.
So, you also contributed a lot to
teaching through online courses.
Online courses. So. Very good.
They are very popular I heard. They are, so.
Good. Those are the my contributions to the
US foundry industry.
But, I believe, my
major contribution to the...
my profession, is my invention of my steel foam. Yeah.
So, I got. You were talking about
it in the morning? Yeah, I got my patent in April, 2017.
Last year, last year . Yeah.
and it has got enormous amount of applications in
both in the defence, the naval, army
True. and structures.
Having worked in aluminium foams, I know.
Everybody was waiting,
someone to make a steel foam. Yeah.
And, that is going to
really remarkably change
Yeah. the whole field. Yeah.
So now, my intent is how to see...
now, that I have got the materials,
now, how to have the components
made use of.
Correct, correct. Because, I
I would like to see this
material is extensively used in
industry for the benefit of... Ok.
it will save the millions of Particularly, defense.
lives. It is a, it's a lifesaving material. Correct, correct.
So, the only thing is, they have to use it.
So, so my students also are working.
On. Armour plates
all those things, you know. Yeah, armour plates to
Correct. using
simulation. We did some work recently,
and using a Nano, you know steel we call it as...
where you refine the microstructure
through heat treatment.
Of course, thermo mechanical processing,
bring a Nano Bainitic kind of structure,
and improve the fracture definite to such an extent,
that it becomes like,
a much better bullet proof material
in terms of shock absorption, energy absorption.
So, so, you are trying to do it with
foam, that is amazing. Yeah.
Very good. So, they there is no limitation to the
steel material. I can make in any material, Correct.
starting from the hardness of
140 BHN up to 500 BHN. Wonderful.
Wonderful. We can have up to even
50 percent of the
lighter weights. It is not only has,
people have been aiming at lightweight steel
Obviously, obviously. for the energy, but it has got
both lightweight but also energy absorption.
True. Not only energy absorption, but also the
sound, sound absorption. Yeah, yeah. And also, automotive industry is also, also...
is amazingly going to use it. Very good. Yeah.
So. And, I heard that you can also make it graded?
It is a gradient.
You can in the industry. Density also. On one side, solid.
Very good. And, in the other side, the foam.
So, we are also now trying to roll it.
Uses a lot of structural stability also. Yeah.
Yeah. That will be very good.
Anything which requires a bending strength,
because this has got a higher stiffness in bending,
so, this is a
very useful material for the
benefit of the... Now, that you have been associated for
almost 5 decades with foundry industry,
how did foundry industry change
in India and in US? How do you,
from your own eyes,
do you see a major change
the way people used to do foundry, for example?
One thing is the development of simulation
software has become,
the so called e-foundry,
now people talk about, right?
Not... Lot of softwares?
Software, but the only thing is, again,
I did my thermal properties in 1970.
Even today, that is one of the limitations.
Okay. All the softwares, there are many software companies.
You need to give inputs
to the softwares. Now, how do you know
the thermal properties? What they have?
Which they have used? So,
there, there is always a scope for improvement. Yeah.
So, there is where now. You need somebody to measure
these thermal properties, so that
you can give them as input parameters.
Input parameters. Correct.
See, even liquidous and solidous temperatures, Yeah
that is an important. New alloys, that you are developing. How do you know that they acquiring? Yeah.
How do you know the density? Correct.
In order to, just measuring the density.
So, that will be a
wonderful research programmes.
True, true, true, true. Evening, I will be telling you about
what all research can be. Energies.
Research can be...
Even surface energies. Even, all, so many things.
Surface energy is another major issue. Yeah.
Yeah So that is... But, one thing is, still, I believe,
industries still have not figured it out - how to
reduce the defects?
Defects, yeah. Because, the process variables..
Are too many. Too many possibilities. So, we have to...
Need to control measurement. Measurement.
So, the other thing is, which
I always, somehow, I work
in the in the UWM, I am a
IBM industrial advisory member.
Very good. So,
there is an academic initiative member.
My daughter is IBM business partner.
So, so introduce me to IBM SBSS Modeller.
Now, all, it depends upon data.
Big data, people talk. Correct.
So, in foundry industry,
one of the weaknesses is,
we are not a data centric industry, still.
True, true, true. To the extent what is needed.
So, what we require is,
how to collect the, how to collect the data.
And then, use the data. Now, people are Use the data.
talking of artificial intelligence, neural networks.
So, that also can play a significant role in foundry also.
Exactly. How
can you predict the
properties of a material? Property correct.
Neural networks. Correct.
And the Sometime back,
decision trees. long back, one of my student worked on
grain size prediction using neural networks,
based on a lot of data that we generate.
So, when you do inoculation
for a given amount of, inoculation for a
known alloy that you are putting in,
what is the grain size? Can we predict it
without doing an experiment?
Yeah. So, that.
So, I am developing a course on
Predictive Analytics in
Manufacturing using IBM SBSS Model.
Actually, on December 23rd,
I am giving a webinar for AFS
Okay. on Predictive Analytics in
Metal Casting Industry.
Fantastic! Wonderful, wonderful. So,
that is, I believe, it's going to be the future.
In US also, this foundry industry has
changed significantly, do you think?
There is a major change?
Yeah, there is a major change
and since, they have got reduced...
If you compare the foundry is...
I will tell you my own...the
US, it is all about caster production
and selling price. Correct.
So, it is all about global economy. So,
if you find that,
somewhere else it is easier to cast
or make the component, make it cheaper, Make it cheaper.
so, you go there. If the same component,
anywhere in the world,
you can get it cheaper and same quality...
Same quality. Same quality, obviously. Same quality.
then they will go.
So, but. For example, in Chennai
you would possibly know that, we have Hyundai
plant, we have, we have Ford.
My ford car is made in Chennai.
So, like that, you have
so many of these industries coming to India
also, for one of these reasons, possibly, caster production. So,
So, in US labour costs are high.
That is okay. I heard that.
So, you cannot compete with...
so, the only thing is, you have to be
on the forefront of the technology. Technology.
So, only the.
Value addition, somehow. Value addition
especially, that is why we say, you
be good in data collection
and reduce the
reduce the quality costs, Reduce the .
then only you can make money, but. True, true.
In our company, we make
large...for the mining machinery,
large cast gears and quality etcetera.
I do not think other people
will be able to have the same amount of a skills.
Whatever said and done,
certain things cannot be learnt
only by books. It is by... True.
True, true, true, true. So, with a 100 year old company,
myself 20 - 25 years
working in steel,
we have so much amount of
personal knowledge about the materials,
so that is very difficult to have... True.
So, you may have money to buy the equipment, True.
but, you do not have the people
who have the skills or the knowledge Skills, yes.
to make the cast. Even,
if you see all the specifications,
specifications are drawn by
mechanical engineers.
Those are the people who
put the specifications.
Our job as the foundry engineer is
to make a component with defect free,
with the properties as the designer has intended.
Now, the question is,
how does the designer
put those specifications? Fracture toughness
was not a specification would bw
Earlier. put on the drawing earlier,
but now it is slowly coming up.
There is a... Now, let us comeback to IIT Madras.
You have been visiting IIT Madras,
at least once in a year, once in 2 years.
Do you see a significant change
from your time to now,
in terms of, let us say...
The only this... what I could see is,
Teaching or research...any,
any one of these fronts,
do you see a significant change?
Like, people like you, who have been
working on nano material,
I do not think, at that time
we had... Yeah, this area was not known.
we had people. So, you have at least
you have, started a new area. True, true. New areas.
For some reason, other than in India,
the foundry courses are not... Yes.
We do not know, same thing in US also.
For example, in Madison,
earlier it was one of the best, but
it is not there.
True, true, true. It depends upon the people.
So, new areas come up, old areas...
it all depends upon demand and... Demand.
Yeah. Whereas, somehow, foundry industry
has not been recruiting many people,
so, slowly, you know, it's
a little come down, that is true.
And more people are now going
more into, as I was telling you, e-foundry.
So now, we have courses where
you demonstrate or you
do through simulation do a
casting experiment rather than doing a
real casting experiment.
So, our classes also,
we introduce that to some extent.
So, that students are also excited to see.
But then, But, eventually...
what industry requires is, still, I believe,
there is enormous amount of a The skilled people?
skill is required. Skill.
How to make a good casting
with good properties? There is always a scope,
and there not many people,
there are not many people who are knowledgeable
Definitely . in steel metal cast, steel metallurgy.
True, true, true. Yeah.
Where are your students? Now, I mean,
do any of them who have become some
stalwarts anywhere like the way you are?
For example, Sundarajan is a good example. Yeah, yeah.
A wonderful example. So, he was the... Correct
And then, Dr. Venkoba Rao was there.
So, and then, Dr. Seshadri
he was and this one etcetera. Seshadri also, possibly,
He is retired now.
He was retired. Yeah, I think.
Dr. Venkoba Rao sir Dr. There is one more
gentlemen in India Pistons by name Gopal,
who keeps on talking about you and all. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I know him very well, yeah.
He is also a very senior member Yeah, yeah, yeah.
but, he remembers you so well Yeah, yeah.
There is another Gopal was there, who was in TVS.
TVS, yeah. TVS, yes.
He also got his PhD with me, you know. Correct, correct, correct.
Even there is one
gentleman by name Mahadevan,
who also talks a lot about you. Yeah, yeah, Mahadevan also.
So, we gave them...because, when I was here,
we developed a squeeze casting...
this one, so they took the... Correct, correct, correct.
So, do you also remember your campus life here?
How was it? I was telling my wife...
We thoroughly enjoyed our campus life.
OATs on Saturdays we used to go. OAT Saturday movies, yeah.
It was very nice, yeah . Nobody can forget.
It was a very nice this... Wonderful, wonderful.
And, your children grew here or?
Mostly. I have 2, I have 2 children. My
daughter completed her...in Vanavani.
Vanavani. And,
also, I was the Chairman of the
Vanavani School School.
between '82 and '84,
after I became my.
After Headship. Head of the Department.
'82 to '84. '84.
I was the Chairman of the Vanavani School.
That is a wonderful experience. Good.
Yeah. That is an excellent school.
Good, good, good. Any message that you have
to the younger people? About foundry
or in general about academics?
Yeah, the only thing which I tell all my
students is, corporations
do not hire you for what you know,
we hire you for what we need.
Yes, definitely. So, your degree is only a necessary condition
for employment, but not a sufficient condition. Sufficient condition.
So, what you need to know is,
you need to figure it out
what we require in foundry.
In foundry. What do you...We require
just the metallurgical background, Correct.
good metallurgical background.
And, the next one is, you require the
heat treatment background
and then, you require
the industrial engineering background.
Correct. And then, even cast accounting.
Cast accounting is extremely important.
So, all the skills you need to have.
Somehow, you have to develop these.
Yeah. They may not be taught in the actual classroom,
Yeah. so, but, one has to develop
to really become successful.
In order to...so those are the skills...
So, it just not the. And then, Yeah.
why mechanical engineering better Metallurgy?
Mechanical engineers generally they will
know little more about
how to read the drawings, okay.
The drawings. Yes, that is true.
Although, now they all the CAD packages have
come. But still, Yeah.
in foundry, you should be able to read the drawing. Correct, correct.
So, those skills.
So, foundry is actually a blend of
both mechanical and metallurgical engineering.
So, it is not only either metallurgical . Yeah, yeah. Definitely, definitely.
or mechanical. Definitely, definitely.
Heat treatment is a part of this. Very good, very good.
You will be surprised, to get one
welding... it'ss extremely important,
but you cannot underestimate... Yeah, definitely, definitely.
To get one procedure qualified,
it may cost about 3000 to 5000 dollars.
Just procedure qualification.
Wonderful. And, I cannot touch my casting with a weld rod
unless, I have got a qualified procedure
Procedure for the welding. Correct. for the welding.
Thank you Professor,
it was wonderful meeting you.
And very nice that you have been able to share
your experience in, not only in IIT Madras, but also
your 25 years of experience, overseas.
And, this is amazing to talk to you,
a stalwart like you.
Thank you, Professor.
You are welcome.
I wish to thank you, Professor Murty.
No, we should thank you. I wish to thank Mamata,
and Mr.Kumaran, The whole Heritage group.
Mr. Rajaraman for giving me this opportunity
to be with you today,
thank you very much. Thank you sir.
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