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Prof. J.B. Majhi in conversation with Prof. Subrahmanyam

Yes, Dr. Majhi, welcome to this programme organized by the

Heritage Centre of IIT Madras.

The main purpose of...is to show, to learn from you

the history of the Department of Physics,

after you joined in 1967.

So if you can, kindly brief us. Yeah.

When you joined how the department was, with reference to its

programmes like Ph. D., M. Sc.

and the type of research,

and the people you have been interacting with.

Yeah, ok, good evening everybody.

So, as suggested by the Heritage Centre, I will briefly outline

my talk in three groups, before joining IIT,

then in the IIT, activities

and after leaving IIT, means after retirement, ok.

So, I was born in Berhampur, a small town in Orissa,

I think you also know that. Yes.

My primary education, middle class, up to B. Sc., I was in Berhampur.

So, I came to IIT straight from Berhampur to this place,

it was really difficult for me, because when

a person comes from a small place to a bigger city,

you get a shock first,

Yeah. so I heard that...

Is it a shock of the language?

Is it a shock of the culture, is it a shock of the food? Everything.

I didn’t know Tamil. Ok.

And also, the culture was little different,

Ok. even the food habits are different.

So...but I could adjust, in the short time, that’s ok. That’s good.

Its ok...anyway, Berhampur I will tell a little bit ok.

My childhood...see my father was a teacher,

I come from a teacher family, my brother is a teacher,

father is a teacher, I am a teacher, ok.

So, my father used...he was the district teacher means,

so what is that called I don’t know,

he used to move from one place to another,

wherever the district people ask him to go there, like that.

So, my education, primary education was a problem,

because every one year, two years, he used to go to a different place.

So my uncle took the responsibility to educate me. Good.

So my mother...mother’s brother,

she nicely left with my uncle and

went to...went my father wherever they goes to.

So my education started with my uncle’s house,

from primary school.

The primary school was very close to our street only,

I used to just walk down, ok,

we are only four, five students at that time.

It was a municipal school.

So they were just starting.

So I studied up to 3rd class,

then I have to go to another middle

school or something, where I have 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th.

So that was a little away, maybe one kilometre away.

That was a training school.

So its a government school. Ok.

So, I studied there up to 7th.

Somehow I was studying well,

so I got some fellowship also, after 7th there used to be a

scholarship examination. Great.

So. I got it, and of course, it was a meagre amount only,

some...I don’t know, 15 or 20 rupees, but it was encouraging.

In those days. In those days. Ok.

And also I needed money at that time

because my uncle also was a school teacher, and

so that helped me to I think...motivated me to

go to higher and higher classes. Good.

Then after 7th I have to go to high school,

high school is a missionary schoonl, is called Queen

Queen Mission School.

So there I studied from 8th to 11th, at that time

11th was there, not 12th. Yeah. Ok.

Somehow I got a first class in 11th, at that time

first class means everybody used to come and...it was great.

Here nowadays I see the marks people children get, above 90 only.

Yeah. And, there if you get 60, it is a great thing.

Those So that helped me to get another scholarship

in the college education.

So, because my uncle also was telling, "After high school

I cannot teach you, I don’t have funds also."

So I said, "I got scholarship,"

"But anyway you...scholarship, you go to your place."

So I went to my parents' place, that is another street only,

its very...all in Berhampur only. Ok.

So, somehow I managed to join the college.

At that time, it was I. Sc. and B. Sc. Yes.

2 years I. Sc. and 2 years B. Sc.

I managed up to B. Sc. Very good.

With a little struggling and all,

and then after B. Sc., what to do?

There was no M. Sc. in that Khallikote College, ok,

it is a Khallikote college...is a big college,

but at that time, there were no M. Sc. in Khallikote College.

I have to go to...outside, either go to Utkal University, Ravenshaw College,

or I have to come to IIT,

I applied both the places,

no at that time, I was having short of funds.

So I said, "I will work for some time."

I...same college, I joined as a demonstrator. Ok.

For one year, collected some money.

At that time the salary was I think 250 or something...anyway.

250 rupees in those days is a big money. Its a good...good amount Yeah.

So I collected some money to go for higher studies.

So my uncle also agreed and my

brother...elder brother who was also teacher. Ok.

He said, "Ok, we will get some fund,

I will also save give you some funds you can join M. Sc."

So one year I was...the demonstrator

to the Khallikote college, then...then I started thinking where to go. Ok.

B. Sc...after B. Sc., I tried for a JEE IIT ok,

but I failed, I couldn’t get it.

At that time the question paper also was very tough.

And there were. Even now it is tough.

Very tough and there was drawing in that.

Yes. So I didn’t know anything about drawing and all.

So you have to write drawing, as well as the questions but

anyway I am not very sorry, its ok,

I tried once, I didn’t pass, then the other choice was also tried,

a Engineering College in Rourkela, that is REC,

it was just starting.

Ok, just went as far as my grades are concerned, it was ok.

But they...at that time they have to have physical fitness also.

Ok. I was lean and I was more lean.

So I was disqualified on the physical...

then I was So to say, you have been maintaining this physique,

right from the beginning. I think you have seen me from...

So, that was a little shock for me.

So I could not be an engineer ok,

then the other choice was to go for science, ok.

So, to go for science, I have to do M. Sc.

So either go to Ravenshaw, which is near Cuttack.

Yeah, it is near to Cuttack, yes. it is Cuttack.

Or you have to go to...[Indistinct Dialogue] or somewhere ok.

So I think at that time only Ravenshaw College was there,

Khallikote College, then there was another Parlakhemundi College,

these three colleges were there.

But Khallikote...as I said, there was no M. Sc.,

so I applied to...at that time I see this advertisement from IIT.

IIT Madras. They are starting M. Sc., my...I was in the second batch, M. Sc.

B. Tech. was there '59,

but M. Sc. started only in...I joined '63, '62 they started.

Very good. So already one batch was studying.

So I applied...I got the admission in both the places,

but then I had to decide where to go.

So my friend said IIT is the bigger institute,

anyway you are going out of your native...

native place, you have to spend

wherever you go, you have to stay in a hostel,

almost it may come in the...financially, it may be same

whether you stay in Madras or in...

So, I was...hesitant, where to go, finally

I decided, ok let me go to IIT Madras

and But, one question,

at that time IIT Kharagpur also...is much nearer to you.

Kharagpur. Did you try?

I...I didn’t know whether there is a M. Sc. there or something. Ok.

I don’t know, at that time. So.

so IIT Madras... But, this I...this I saw in the newspaper and just applied.

Ok. My friends also asked...advised me to apply just like that.

So it is 1963. '63 that was.

You came from. So at that time there was no entrance test for M. Sc.

Ok, just walking. Luckily maybe...maybe this marks,

B. Sc. marks they called me, for a simple interview like that,

Ok. before admission they

they want to chit chat and say you are fit or not.

Ok.

So I somehow...I managed. Who was the chairman of the department at that time?

At that time, Professor Ramasastry was the HOD. Ramasastry. Ramasastry was there. Ok.

He was the HOD, he joined from beginning, '50...'59. He was coming from IIT Kharagpur at that time.

He came from IIT Kharagpur. Yes.

And then Ramaseshan also, he had joined. Ramaseshan who...

Professor who came from Institute of Science. Later on went back to

He came from Institute of Science Bangalore.

But, he stayed for only one or two years and went off as it... and went back to National Aeronautical Laboratories.

So from beginning, Ramasastry was there,

and he became my guide also, afterwards Ph. D. guide. Ph. D. guide. Exactly, yes.

So, they were there, somehow I could manage.

So how was your days in M. Sc. in IIT Madras?

So, a little bit I want to say about my journey from Berhampur to Chennai. That’s good.

Ok. Because, I was new and I didn’t know anybody in Chennai, no language,

so luckily there was one friend who was studying AMIE.

So there, at that time, lot of Oria people used to come from...studying AMIE,

there were no engineering colleges,

now plenty of engineering colleges are there

In Orissa, some seats are even vacant.

But at that time, only very few engineering...Rourkela, Burla,

and maybe one more like that.

So, many people used to come to...Oria people come to study AMIE

that’s a...you know, that is a...

engineering college, now its not very popular.

So, one fellow was there, his name was

again Aditya Kumar Pattnaik,

your son’s name. Ok.

So I knew only him, he also used to encourage me.

He said, "You come to Madras, I will take care of you."

Because I can’t come straight to IIT, I don’t know where the IIT is,

from station how to come,

and the language problem, he said, "You come,

I will pick you up from station, I will take to my room."

He was already established there. Ok.

And I will bring next day to IIT and put you... Wonderful.

and that was a very good gesture for me,

and there was another friend, who was doing...what is that, Chromepet,

there was...he was doing after B. Sc. you know,

I stayed in Berhampur for one more year.

He joined the Chromepet...that what is that

There is one Madras Institute of Technology, MIT. MIT

He joined as a...he also told me

you..."When you come to Chennai, you come to my..."

But Chromepet is quite far from that,

so I preferred to meet this man, Aditya,

he...luckily what happened, at that time there was only two trains,

one is that Madras Mail Yes.

The famous Madras Mail. Another is a...I think Coromandel was there and I don’t know

No, Coromandel was not there. Not there, and there was...one the Express was there.

So, I took the Mail.

That was a very popular Mail and is a good...

I don’t know how I came, maybe second class somewhere

ordinary compartment or something like that.

Those days we never had reservation.

So, I could manage to come.

But when I got down in station,

he was missing, I was looking for him.

That was very difficult for me.

But, he gave me instruction, "Suppose I can’t come,"

you...he has given me address,

its very near, he was in Vepery somewhere.

Vepery Two-three kilometre.

"You take a rikshaw, come there,

and I will, in case I can’t come to station."

So, it happened

so, because this is the Mail, reaches Chennai in...early mornings.

Around 4 o’ clock. 4 o’ clock.

So I don’t expect him to come also, it happens sometimes.

So, I stayed in the... I would like to say one thing,

Mail is the only one which has not changed

even after the Second World War, Yeah.

till today. Very reliable.

The time of its arrival in Chennai. Yeah.

The time of its departure. Yes, very very reliable.

Great. Even now also I prefer to go by Mail.

Yes. Because Mail reaches Berhampur in a proper time.

In the evening, but Coromandel...midnight both way, Yes.

this way and that way, it is in midnight,

I prefer to go So you reached Central, and then?

Central...and I was looking for him, then I said, "It is still dark, what to do."

So I stayed for some time in the station, Till it is getting.

then I took...I become a little brave,

let me start my journey, at that time, you know these rikshaw walas...

even that auto was not available that time, ordinary rikshaw. Only rikshaw.

Rikshaw, and even hand pulling...people pulling,

So, I took I think cycle rikshaw something, yeah,

I...I didn’t know how to communicate with that rikshaw fellow.

I showed that address, that is written in... He speaks only Telugu and Tamil

That was written in English,

so he couldn’t understand.

But I said...Vepery means...he said, "Ok, I will take you, don’t worry,"

the house number was there. I reached there,

he was anxiously waiting for me.

Very good. So, he took a referral and then,

he brought to...to IIT and then joined.

So that was something interesting, I...

so that gave me some braveness that...

So two years passed after your M. Sc.? Yeah.

You passed out, Then I... and who were the teachers

who were teaching you at that time, 1963?

So I...they put me in Godavari Hostel. Godavari.

Godavari, because at that time only Krishna, Cauvery

was there, and Godavari was just

newly coming Godavari and... Ok, so it was a new hostel for you.

New hostel. I still remember the room number 109 something. 109.

And it happens that later I became Assistant Warden of the same hostel.

Its a very nice thing to do.

So, M. Sc. I...two years, ok.

Yeah, but who were the teachers with you? Yeah.

So, let me see. Ramasastry was there.

Ramasastry was teaching us

solid state physics and semiconductor physics.

And Professor Srinivasan also might be there.

R. Srinivsan. R. Srinivasan. Is the quantum mechanics...

were very good teachers, great teachers.

Swaminathan also might be there.

Swaminathan was teaching some...mathematical physics. Yes.

And . Ramanamurthi was there teaching Ramanamurthi X-rays

X-ray and solid state physics. And who were the other old teachers?

Ramaji Rao, classical mechanics. Yes.

And, then pagdi man what is his name?

Ramabhadran. Ramabhadran.

Electromagnetic theory and relativity, it was nice,

all the teachers were very devoted, and I really like the teaching. Ok.

One thing I want to say was...Professor R. Srinivasan,

he will just come with a chalk,

he will start exactly in time, suppose 10 to 11, exactly he will come,

start immediately, and when he finishes the class,

he finishes the topic, he finishes the chalk and goes.

I was wondering how he adjusting all this thing, wonderful teacher

He was one of the great teachers. and great teacher.

Ok that...so that...and Ramasastry is different type, he will come last class only.

That is 11 to 12, ok, and we don’t know when he will end,

that is another interesting thing.

He will come, slowly he will come, slowly he will start,

but he sometimes, he comes without preparation with things and teaches,

but whatever he teaches you remember,

is a from his practice I mean

These are all the great teachers. Practical things he is more of a practical nature.

So, I really learnt how to do practical experiment from him,

that I have to be understand. Ok.

And, we don’t know, we can’t say,

"Sir time is up" and because it was a difficult things,

so sometimes so it goes up to 1 o’ clock, we miss our lunch.

So again you have to come for the lab,

so it was...that is a peculiar thing.

And, Ramaji Rao, you know, he used to talk philosophy,

someone immediately he will stop,

he will talk something philosophy, and again

come down and do something.

So that is another peculiar, you know

and Ramabhadran is typical you know...

Yeah, Ramabhadran. He was there when you came?

I was there...he was there, all these people were there

when I was there...except He is a very traditional teaching.

He is very principled and disciplined, like that

So, the yeah then X-ray is a our Ram...what is that? Ramanamurthi.

Ramanamurthi "Arre baba," he will say very nicely,

he says he always tell about his village and all you see

"I came from very hard work, you should work hard." Yeah, he is one example.

He used to teach us X-ray as well as experimental techniques.

Experimental techniques. Techniques ok.

Ok. So like that, I had a very good teacher in M. Sc. ok,

any other thing I forgot to you ok. You you you you I think you have you completed M. Sc.

by '65. '65, '63 to '65. '65

Ok, in the hostel life, you know it was... You were there in Godavari

and... Godavari,

it used to have its own mess. So I told no,

initially I had a little problem about the food habits.

Because, here everything is sour no, they give

what is that...curd and all, everything they.

So, I...I slowly I had to adjust...

You also might have had a problem with your timing

because, in Berhampur and Orissa,

you ate lunch around...I mean you eat dinner around

That’s another interesting thing. 11’ o clock in the evening.

Here you have to eat at 6 o’ clock to 7 o’ clock. At 7.

Which is not even your evening tea time. So I am not hungry at all.

So I have to wait at least 8 o’ clock,

by the time, things will be over.

So they say "If you come late, you have to ask for late dinner."

Late meals. ok late meals. Yeah, yeah.

So sometimes I have to say force..."Ok put me for late meals, ok."

And they will put in the plate and cover with another plate

they will write your Room number. Name.

oh Room number right.

Room number because this room number

is more important than name I think. Ok.

So I sometimes...I miss that also,

when I open the top, you have...nothing will be there.

Somebody else might have come later and taken that food also,

and sometimes maybe your rice and sambar will be there.

No... Let me ask you one question,

How much used to be the mess bill per month in those days?

Those days it was very cheap maybe.

Maybe. Maybe about 20, 25, 30 rupees?

May be 30, 40 rupees like that. 30, 40 rupees.

But that also was too much for us.

Yeah, but so to say, the rupee value. But still get food was good,

Yeah. slowly I liked it, because it was nice.

So, another...there used to be a mess committee also.

Student. So 1965, you completed your Masters. Yes.

Then what did you do?

Because you had all the summer vacation. Yes

You went home. so went home.

Then I wanted to apply for research.

In between I got lot of three, four months' gap, ok.

So, I finished in June or July no.

1965, it should be July.

July.

then August, September, October,

the research scholar too was in October something,

so what will I do these three months?

I thought if suppose I don’t get Ph. D.,

I mean research fellowship, what will I do?

So let me join some local college here.

I joined again Khallikote College as a Lecturer.

Khallikote College, the place where you have been doing your... Yeah.

They were happy to take me.

Because I was student there. Ok.

So...but I told them, "Suppose I get fellowship, I may go."

So you have been truthful right through your career,

right through your life. Yeah yeah.

You did not hide any information.

No no. Very nice, ok.

So, so after 3 months, no, I had to leave that college.

Then I got this fellowship, ok.

Then the... How much was the fellowship in 1965?

250 or something 250 rupees, huge money.

And during my M. Sc. also, I got that small fellowship. Fellowship.

They used to be merit come means Yes.

so I was I was really lucky, to get some small fellowship everywhere,

so that I could continue my education. Very nice.

Ok that’s one good thing, ok.

So somehow I got the scholarship here,

so I had to leave that...

so I got a little problem with the administrators,

they say, "You can’t leave like this,

without giving what is prior

information," what is that...of notice that you will be leaving.

So but luckily, the...the Chairman of that,

he was a very kind man...my...they are known to my family.

So my brother, and my...my father’s brother,

they went to the Chairman...[Inaudible Dialogue]

So, you could come out and... I could come out.

Joined in 1965 October in IIT Madras as a Research Scholar. As a Research Scholar.

So With whom did you get registered?

I registered with Professor Ramasastry. Ramasastry.

So I was there at '65 to '67 as the Research Scholar, As the Research Scholar

at that time the other small...what is that...

what is that...available for joining as STA. Yeah,

some scheme was there, because, There was a opening scheme. the department is still

wanted some technical people, Ok.

and Ramasastry said, "Why don’t you join as a senior. As a senior technical assistant.

And do your...continue your Ph. D., ok.

So that way, I joined 1967. '67, I joined.

You joined as a Senior Technical Assistant. A Research Scholar...as a Research Scholar.

No, '65 as a Research Scholar. No no '65 as a Research Scholar

'65 to '67 as a Ph. D. Research Scholar,

'67. After '67, I joined the staff.

Senior Technical Assistant.

So my Ph. D. work became delayed now

because I have to do other work also, ok.

What was the assignment given to you as a STA? Assignment at that time,

see, suddenly Professor Ramasastry gave me a class

to teach M. Sc. Chemistry people ok,

some Physics they have, ok. Ok.

That’s a...maybe that’s a...just like we had, when I studied M. Sc.,

we had a course in Mathematics,

Professor Achuthan used to take. Ok.

Like that there used to be

Interdisciplinary subjects. Interdisciplinary subjects,

that’s a good thing actually.

So I enjoyed that teaching, without much experience Teaching Physics to the Chemistry people.

Chemistry people. Masters.

Some of my students still, I see, they are

teachers in Central School. Ok.

So we still...whenever I see... Great.

So that’s a good thing, ok.

So like that I finished my M. Sc., then two years of research,

and then...then started STA, then after that

You became Lecturer in 1977. I got...'77

because at that time, unless you have Ph. D., you don’t get a

Lecturer post. Ok.

So I had to wait, and because I had to do this teaching and

lab work, my work also got delayed.

And you know Ram sir is the task master,

he won’t...unless you do a perfect job,

he won’t accept it. Yes.

So its ok. How many faculty were there in those days?

When you joined as a...as a...as a staff.

Staff, I told already my teachers Yeah.

they are there, and then, later on who came...

Y. S. Rao might have joined.

Professor Y. V. G. S. Murthi was there. Y. V. G. S. Murthi.

Professor Gopalam was there. Gopalam.

They joined very early, Professor... And S. B. S. Sastry.

Professor S. B. S. Sastry. Maha Seshsayee Maha Seshsayee also...that yes

Around that time. He joined little later.

Yeah. Yes K. V. Reddy.

K. V. Reddy was there from the beginning

And '77 means it should be K. V. S. Rama Rao.

K. V. S. Rama Rao, yeah joined little later, Must be very fresh.

Yeah yeah, then our Y. Syamasundara Rao.

Y. S. Rao, Syamasundara Rao. Y. S. Rao, they are...Acharyulu

B. S. V. S. R. Acharyulu B. S. V. Acharyulu...

There were... How about B. Subrahmanyam?

B. Subrahmanyam also came bit late,

but he was also there for very long time. So, to say...

Yeah By 1977, the department is more or less

formed with these people, to run the department as well as the...

Really, I should say, they have sacrificed their thing

for the department. Ok.

I don’t say the younger generation are not doing,

they are also, but in the beginning, when there are no infrastructure...

Yeah, when you say no infrastructure

what is...what was available at that time?

For example, let me tell about our group,

Yes. Yes. small group, Semiconductor.

Yes. So when I started with Ramasastry,

we didn’t have any material at all,

he got some few samples, from abroad

when he visited what is that University of... Illinois. Illinois.

Where Professor Bardin was working.

Bardin...that is another interesting thing, He had been there for about a couple of months. yeah couple of months.

and, so he, when he...he when he visited his lab,

they were in Bell Labs no, Bardin was working in Bell Lab,

but he was also teaching in the Illinois. Illinois.

So he met him and had discussion. By that time Bardin already was a Nobel laureate.

Nobel laureate. 1977.

Yeah yeah he...he came no, he came to... He is already.

When did he '73 he visit '73 he visited our

visit our department, because Ramasastry

was known to him, and they arranged a Special Convocation.

And also, we had a small conference like thing...

He was awarded the Honoris...Doc...Causa Honoris...

Yeah, in '73. By IIT Madras.

IIT Madras, that’s a great thing to meet a Nobel laureate.

He is a double Nobel laureate, if I remember Yeah, yeah he

He got two Nobel prizes. One for the semi conductor,

One for the invention of transistor, the other for the super conductors. I think

Super conductor, yes so that’s

So you had a chance to meet a wonderful man in semiconductors.

Bardin. Yes that’s really great to see him and discuss with him.

Dr. Bardin. Yeah he was very nice gentleman

and we had a good time.

So that is one...

By the time you finished your Doctorate, 1977 Don’t know

I finished only '76, Ok.

but I was in almost in the verge of...

he visited the department. Visited, yeah.

So, that was How much time did he spend in the department?

I mean with us, in IIT.

Maybe a week or something, I don’t About a week.

exactly...Ramasastry forced him

to visit our department meet all the faculty

and I think he gave a talk also.

This...his experience and all,

how they invented the transistor. Yes.

It is very interesting.

So here, he also told, see

you will not have a very high, I mean what is that

always...for infrastructure and

very good instruments to discover something,

but he say no no we did in a very humble way,

you might have seen the picture no, of the Yes.

transistor invention, how crude it looks. Yes.

So so could do, if...if you have will, you can do something.

So...that so, that’s a good thing actually.

Very good. That’s not necessary always you should have a

big infrastructure to do something.

What do you find? You...you have supernnuated in 2002.

1973 to 2002 is almost about 20, say 30 years.

Yeah, I spent nearly...yeah 30...30. Yeah 30 years.

more than 30 years, yeah. In the 30 years, the...the...the

the whole science has changed,

now infrastructure is more important than the ideas. Yeah yeah

now of course, without infrastructure you can’t do anything, yeah.

And, so what you have to do is, when you are doing research,

there was not much infrastructure.

We have to build our own equipment, ok

small-scale, for example What was available in the department at that time?

An X-ray diffractometer?

X-ray was there and, Because with Ramanamurthy.

Ramasastry bought some good oscilloscopes,

HP oscilloscope, which was...I used for my field of experiment.

Therefore one thing. There used to be one...Czochralski Crystal Puller.

If I remember correctly the silicon That was silicon,

but it didn’t work really actually You didn't use it, ok.

It was the...I don’t know,

they didn’t send a good equipment,

because its useful for research, that is a fabrication for... Its actually a pilot plant.

It is for industry that is used.

Yes. See we can’t use the industrial unit,

we don’t have so much of material to put that. Exactly.

So that was a waste actually,

planning I would say it was not good. Ok.

They should have got a smaller one.

But there used to be Professor Koch,

who...who has come all the way from Germany

with all this equipment. Yeah yeah yeah.

How was your interaction with him?

So, he taught us also semiconductor in the class.

We can...see in M. Sc. we had three specialization,

one is X-ray, semiconductor physics and microwave

So I took Microwave used to be taken care by Professor

Shobhanadri. Shobhanadri, yeah I forgot to mention,

he's also from beginning, Shobhanadri. I think he and Professor

Ramasastry, R. Srinivasan joined almost at the same time.

Same time I think Its around the same time.

Yeah, same time.

So, he used to take also electronics lab.

Our Shobhanadri. Wonderful.

And, it was good. What was your research topic?

My research topic is actually mine thing was

field effector and semiconductor.

Ok.

Mostly whatever samples are

available were brought by Professor Ramasastry.

Few silicon wafers, few germanium wafers

I used to cut and...with the diamond curve,

I used to take the help of glass flowing section.

Glass flowing. They used to cut glass.

So the silicon crystals also can be cut by glass.

So that also technique I learn, how to cut this...

putting a scale and putting that...

it was a nice experience, to...in earlier days.

So I used to cut this,

then I have to do simple oxidation.

You might have seen some of our, what is that?

Oxidation furnaces.

furnace built by us,

that is quartz tube, of about two, three inches.

We had a good glass...glass flowing section. In those days.

Who is that person, who is a foreman? Venugopal.

Venugopal, before that. Before that is

Kumaraswamy. Kumaraswamy.

Kumaraswamy, they really helped us.

So, I still feel such facilities are required.

See now when I visited some time back,

it was almost in a...nothing is going on there in

that glass building section. Yeah, but people are going to advance.

Since its No no see it was

It was catering to Chemical Engineering,

Yeah. Chemistry and Physics.

So now, I don’t know how people do... Yeah, coming back to your Ph. D. thesis

you have attended the convocation for receiving your degree.

Yeah yeah. You remember the great man who awarded the degree to you?

Tell us a few words about. Yeah yeah yeah, M. Sc., M. Sc. at that time,

who came, yeah great that Raman, Not M. Sc.

C. V. Raman came for my M. Sc. degree M. Sc., C. V. Raman.

I...I actually I finished in '65,

but, the convocation was in '66.

Ok.

So I got my paper, why it happened is, that '65 batch,

they preponed the...their degree.

Ok. I don’t know at the time some war was there no.

Ok yeah, there was a war So they wanted the engineers to come

fast and help the army and all.

So that was the thing.

So, all those who finished in '65,

M. Sc., they were...the degree was available in '66. Awarded in '66

that was a And you are lucky to have Professor...

Dr. Sir C. V. Raman C. V. Raman, C. V. Raman.

And for my M. Sc., M. S. Swaminathan...

and Ph. D., the chief guest was M. S. Swaminathan

Who is the Director...what is that.

Agricultural scientist. Agricultural scientist.

M. S. Swaminathan. He has come.

Later on he became our Chairman, Board of the Governors as well So like that

And, my...our Director was this...what is Sengupto.

Sengupto. So I have seen Sengupto.

Then second was...what is that Ramachandran.

Arcot Ramachandran. Arcot Ramachandran.

He was a great man. So they were there.

So you had excellent time in those days.

Yeah, very good.

So when I got my M. Sc. degree, Professor Sengupto was there,

when I got Ph. D., Pandalai was there.

So, So, we have seen your research career.

Yeah. How about your teaching career.

Teaching, I taught some courses to B. Tech.,

and some to M. Sc.

So...since my voice was low,

they preferred...I preferred to take a M. Sc.

class because the number is less, than I can talk

You are always calm and quiet. Yes yes.

So...so because if I take B. Tech., I have to have

mic and all those things.

But B. Tech. in those days used to be about 300 students.

So that was very big, that...our Physics, what is that...theatre.

Physics Lecture Theatre Theatre! That was too big for me.

Ok. So, so then I preferred to have M. Sc. and M. Tech.,

some students and some Ph. D. course also I took.

At that time we used to have some course for Ph. D. students you know.

Yeah. Just to...like that

and semiconductor part I used to take, Now,

we have seen your teaching career,

now tell us something about your research in guiding Ph. Ds.,

handling projects. Yeah yeah.

So, I guided of course, I didn’t have many students.

My first student who joined, he...what is his name?

C. P. Sridhar you might have seen,

he joined somewhere in

Sridhar is working with IBM for sometime.

Not that Sridhar

This is the senior Sridhar, yeah. Earlier who joined in the...

Senior Sridhar was working for a company who is now distributing

some of the equipments. Equipments.

Semiconductor equipments. I know that. Lasers and all the Yes, yes optical instruments.

So, I was very unfortunate, after two years he got a job.

Then he asked me politely, "Sir, I am

financially little difficult, whether I will go for the job

or I will continue for my Ph. D.?"

I said, "Ph. D. we don’t know when it will end,

So, if you are getting a job with a good salary, go."

But my colleagues, they said, "Don’t leave him, your first student."

I said, "No no, he is requesting,

he he is not...he needs immediately some financial things," I left him.

So right from the beginning you are an excellent teacher and research. So, he...he did only 2 years research.

And so he only took...took some course work and...

but whenever he comes to Chennai, he meets me. Good.

He remembers, "I did a mistake,

I didn’t do my Ph. D."

So, its alright,

but he's financially ok, he, I think in a good post

in the...that was the first student.

Second was our, Krishna Rao.

Krishna Rao who is working as a Lecturer.

By this time he must have been Professor in

somewhere in Andhra Pradesh. Andhra Pradesh.

he also, after Ph. D., he went as post-doctoral to Belgium.

I thought he will do a good job somewhere,

he will settle there, or go to America.

But poor fellow, he was homesick, I think.

He came back to his Andhra,

he joined some college there, and I think he there continued. Once

he came I think Your third student is again Sridhar.

He is another Sridhar, he did on amorphous semiconductor.

It is...it was a new for me also, I had a project

DSD with the another Ramachandran, no...

Ramachandran of CSD, that is...

So we had a project. Yeah.

So. A part of Electrical Engineering.

So, we built some equipment and he did some work in that,

he...he that was the third.

He is presently working in United States, for I think Global Foundries.

Good, good, and here students are well off, I think. Yeah,

after that Because, you also help them.

See something interesting is my students and his students,

it is...we take care of each other.

Whenever he is...out of station, I will take care of...including

that Ph. D. viva, and you took care of I think somebody, my student.

Yes. Maybe Binny or somebody.

It was in 1983, we joined together. So we had a very good...in...

semiconductor...although is a small lab, we had a very good

cooperation with our colleagues, as well as our students.

They were very faithful and doing whatever you say.

Your fourth student is Paul Binny.

Paul Binny yeah. Paul Binny is now with Bangalore,

running his own He also did the silicon, he did the interface,

silicon...silicon dias interface. Yes, he is the man of oxidation,

high pressure oxidation. Oxidation,

we developed that equipment... I know, I remember that.

So that was the...some of the equipment

we used to develop, whatever possible

for example, we wanted to study CV characteristic,

at different frequencies,

I didn’t get a ready-made equipment for that CV meter.

CV meter they will say only 1 frequency or 1 and 10, like that.

Yes. Because, that is used for just testing some capacitor.

But we went into the continuous variation. Yes.

So we have to build our own capacitor...they did it nicely.

It worked, but I don’t know what happened after that, nobody was there.

So, that was the one. Your sixth student is...is Suresh.

Suresh, fifth...fifth.

I did some with...collaboration with Chemistry,

and the material science yeah what is that.

CSD. CSD.

With Dr. Y. R. Dr. Y. R., I did something.

That is another thing, another good friend,

he because, I am...most of my work was electronics nature.

So some of the devices, I made in the CSD.

Dr. Y. R. helped me.

So we had a mutually You also had a good interaction with Professor Raina.

Raina also was there.

And, you also had a good interaction with

Who were the Chairman? Achuthan of Electric.

And Bhat. K. N. Bhat. K. N. Bhat. K. N. Bhat of Electrical.

Yeah, so, it was good to make some simple devices,

in the like...we...they had a clean room and all those things,

we didn’t have.

So maybe you can develop a clean room here,

so that people can do some device work, ok. Yes.

So that was then.

So these five student then some two, three collabrate

with the what is the material science who was incharge earlier? Subba Rao.

Subba Rao was there first.

First? He started collaboration,

he was doing some electrochemical something.

Electrochemical He asked me whether you could help in Physics part of it,

I said, "Ok, I can help."

So they you...students used to come and discuss me and all,

he was doing at that time, high temperature superconductors. High temperature superconductivity.

Then I used to ask him what is the temperature today?

We used to have fun.

So then he left for Karaikudi.

As a Director.

Afterwards, I don’t know what happened to that. Yeah,

he went to Singapore, then he came back,

now he is presently in Chennai in his own house.

Then after that who came, as an in charge?

Any student...who is it still there no.

I forgot...name.

Material Science Centre.

who was in charge? After Subba Rao,

I think it was the Chemistry people who took over.

This name I am not sure. Who is still there now

No, that that. You told me his name.

That is Subramaniam, S. Subramaniam of R. S. I. C.

No, that is different, that is R. S. I. C., your material were,

you were telling one person no,

This is a Ramachandran Rao and... Ramachandran before that Ramachandran Rao?

Before Ramachandran Rao, I don’t remember

because Subba Rao we had a very good interaction,

After that, I don’t know.

No, he...you were a good friend only.

Who? I don’t know.

Recollect, he was now he is shifted to Chemistry.

Varadaraju, Dr. Varadaraju. Varadaraju, he has some students,

Ok. interacted with me,

Dr. Varadaraju ok. Some one or two people,

they used to do by chemical methods. Ok.

I didn’t know any Chemistry

so I have to learn from them, and I only Physics part I helped them.

Yeah. ok, how to take some measurements,

how to study.

At the...around 1999,

preparatory course was introduced in IIT,

or maybe a little before that.

Have you taken any preparatory courses?

Preparatory means. Preparatory means these people will be appearing,

coming from the special category. Oh...this SC ST. SC ST.

I took some...I had tough time actually...

What was your experience in that?

I had a tough time because, we used to take the class

before they joined the Institute.

The actual program starts... And you have to take extra classes,

Yeah extra classes. still they are not able to get good marks,

then we were asked to explain why he is not getting...

why he is not getting pass and all that’s a real...

I don’t know how to solve that problem.

So we can only pity them, but how to give them marks

unless they don’t write.

So that is a problem also, I had a difficult You you you have handled some of the preparatory courses.

Preparatory course and I handled some tutorial classes Ok.

with our...what is that? He was our good teacher.

Tutorials for our colleagues.

V. Ramachandran? V. Ram...no no, Balakrishnan...

he was...I used to attend his class,

he is also very nice teacher wonderful. Wonderful teacher.

And then I used to help only the tutorial class, Ok.

to solve the problems and all.

And, coming to the...this this COSTED,

COSTED used to be their Committee of

Science and Technology in Developing Countries.

It was...the Chairman happened to be our Professor Radhakrishnan.

Radhakrishnan yeah, yeah. They used to organize quite a number of

Yeah, yeah. Yes, yes. conferences,

they used to support for faculty to go for conferences. Yes.

What was your participation in this COSTED you had? I had a good interaction with him,

he used to help me and

he also tried to send me some places, but I didn’t work, ok,

but I helped in some of the short term courses,

he used to conduct some courses. Yeah, he used to conduct a lot of short term courses.

asked me to give some lectures like that, I said ok.

I also arranged some short term course for teachers you know.

Science teachers and Engineering school, college teachers Exactly.

I...two, three courses I did.

FIP they called at that time. FIP.

QIP. Faculty Improvement Program, exactly.

QIP I conducted two, three courses like that,

and the another thing overall thing. Overall, you have spent how many years in the department?

1963, no. No, '67, '67 to

2002. 2002, how much?

35 years. 35 years I was there.

A full term. So I don’t have any grievances,

the another advantage I got is this beautiful campus.

No first let us see,

what is your impressions of your...of your career in the department,

you have spent 35 years? Yeah,

I have no regret although there are some

sometimes you feel little upset.

For example, I stayed the STA for 10 years.

So that...little, I wanted to go to Berhampur University, I also applied.

Then I didn’t go afterwards but,

but then I You became Professor in '95 or '96?

I...professor in '96, '96. Around that time, around that time.

I became Professor.

So because of the delay, I was a little unhappy,

but for my family and for children

since they get very nice atmosphere here for schools and all.

So all my children studied in K. V. IIT.

So coming to the campus life. Campus life

You must have really enjoyed the campus life. I enjoyed the campus.

Tell us something about your No no regret about this.

wonderful time One is...best thing I got is the good education for my children,

and good friends like you and all.

We are the...we are not only colleagues, but we are also family friends so. Yes.

So like that I got Y. S. family, your family, K. V. Reddy.

Yes. They were neighbours,

Yes. a beautiful thing, they were just neighbours.

No, you are nice to all of us,

so therefore we are all...[Indistinct Conversation]

Then they...like that many.

Is there any anecdote?

Any good incident, which you remember both in the department,

as well as in your family life staying in IIT Madras?

Some interesting incidents right? Yeah.

So when I got married you know,

So I married this...7th of December 1970.

You remember it very well. Yeah.

7th December 1970.

So, then I was in Berhampur for some time for marriage event,

I came to...again back to

Chennai. Department, on first of '71.

So, my wife also didn’t know any language in...

and at that time, the allotment of quarters were difficult. Quarters.

So first day we stayed in...I was at that time Assistant Warden.

So I said, "I can...we will adjust in that Assistant Warden room."

Godavari. She...she was a little scared, so many students all were there.

It looks odd, anyway the students were nice also.

Anyway, so we stayed one...one day only.

afterwards I shifted to what is Taramani Guest House. Taramani

Guest House. At that time they used to give

Taramani Guest House for first month, two months like that. Ok

now. So we stayed nearly two months there,

by the time I was looking for the quarters,

so, what happened is, at that time we did...a lot of time used to take

to get a quarter, even a small quarter. Ok.

So, somebody left for Germany,

So, D-type.

So, he is left for 6 months or so,

then we got hold of, our Prasad Rao helped...

told me that they will... T. A. Prasad Rao.

T. A. Prasad Rao, he...I forgot his name

he was a very nice gentleman. T. A. Prasad Rao.

But he joined in...oh he was working at that time

and rejoined the department in 19... yeah. He joined as a what, as a

pool officer or something.

It was after his Ph. D. from IIT Kanpur, he joined as a pool...

as a Research Associate or a pool officer. Yeah yeah.

So at that time, there was a quarter vacant, D-type.

He asked me, "Why don’t you

That’s good. take that things."

So we stayed for a few months there.

and then later I got the allotment.

After very small...that E1 type you know, the smallest.

Yeah smallest single room apartment.

That's not single bedroom single room apartment. Just a kitchen and a

Yeah. hall like...a small hall, and a bedroom like that,

its a single bedroom, yeah. Yes.

Somehow we managed

in that room also there are a lot of guests,

That too come from Berhampur and...

somehow my wife managed, it was a...

So, overall So when we join...came to that...Taramani Guest House,

so I used to come to the department, she was alone in the room.

So I was feeling, "Suppose somebody comes, what will I say?"

She don’t know language...language Yeah, language was a problem.

I told you say (In Tamil) "I don't know Tamil."

What is that called? Tamil...?

(In Tamil) I don't know Tamil.

So you tell that, he will go away.

So like that, we managed.

So some funny incident, then slowly,

but she learnt the language so fast. Fast.

My wife she talks very fluently. I know.

Whereas I have spent so many years,

still I don’t know proper Tamil!

This is one thing I share with you,

I...I...I spent 32 years, I can’t speak Tamil like you,

you and I are just the same. I don’t know how it happens.

It happened because we started speaking in Hindi and English.

yes. In the...in the...in the...in the department.

Yeah. So, that is the. Yes.

So, so. Coming back, what are your hobbies?

Hobby...in the schools I used to play cricket. This is a good question for me,

because I...I never asked you this question.

Yeah, yeah. I never noticed it.

Because, I think, they asked me to write hobby also

I...I felt what I will write?

In schools I used to play cricket Ok.

and then college also I played. Yeah, but in IIT.

No...in Berhampur, in Berhampur. Your hobby is to work...your hobby is to work

I suppose in the laboratory. Yes.

So in Khallikote college, I was in the college team,

we used to go to inter-college tournament like that,

but after I...coming to IIT, I left everything,

only research and teaching that’s all,

so called...ok No but you were instrumental

in making a few people, trained in giving good lectures.

I am one among them. Is it?

Yes. I don’t know.

Because you and Y. R.,

Dr. Y. R. used to ask me to give the lectures almost once a week,

we used to have a good program Yeah.

You were going for tea very

Yeah, tea. I should say I should say, religiously.

Religiously...yeah we, go for...morning. In the morning.

Yeah. Once we used to discuss, we can go...go to tea.

Yeah. Sometimes, I would meet you on the way, you never took tea I think.

I was not taking tea in those days. But we used to force you, "Come!"

Yeah you are forcing me. You discuss on the road, we will discuss something.

Yes, yes. Because we all are the same...semiconductor.

Yes. So we used to have a nice discussion.

So, like that. So, are you still continuing that habit of tea

in the morning, or stopped it?

Nowadays not much, so once in a while I take Not much.

take tea but, only morning I think take some tea. So.

Yeah. Not going out...canteen and all.

What do you want to tell the department

or the institute, about your 35 years of wonderful journey,

both in academics, as well as in your family life, in the campus?

What would you like to give a message to

the people? Message means...its...I think we are lucky to have

such a great Institute

we have social life, academic life both are...

Particularly, for the...our children no, it was a very good

place for their education and,

when my boy, my elder boy was studying,

his higher class. Jayanth Jayanth,

five of his friends got into JEE.

Yeah, Jayanth is one among the And he got a very good rank,

yeah in the top rankers my son got 6...16th rank he got.

Yeah, without any coach.

Without any coach, that is the That is the most important part.

that happened because of the environment in those days. Yeah yeah.

So, I don’t know, that’s good.

And, second boy also got into

Prashanth also got into JEE, Prashanth.

but he got Metallurgy, this fellow got Computer Science.

His rank was very low, he told me in that

don’t expect...like Jayanth.

He used to study so hard and all Jayanth is a real giant

So, he did a good job, and he also doing well in the abroad also Fantastic.

So he is there. So, how often do you visit your children in U. S. and in Europe?.

So, so my daughter is in Europe.

She’s in Europe. So we find convenient to go to Europe,

then America. Yeah hop in Europe and then hop in U. S.

So, sometimes we go to Europe, then stay for two weeks,

then go there, like that we will do, four-five times we have gone like that,

but now we are old no.

No, you are not old. So we find very difficult to

travel, particularly America...that from Dubai to that

place takes 15-16 hours.

Yes. Its really hard for me and

my wife says, "No no I will never go,

let them come, let the children come... Right

and see us," like that.

So that is another thing.

Ok. So you would like to say something more,

you have? Something I

We...did we cover the point?

[Indistinct Dialogue]

Ok, activities after retirement... After retirement, yeah yeah its interesting.

Because this you can always find out what I am doing.

Yeah, 2002 afterwards. After retirement

first, yeah towards the end of my thing no, I retired in 2002

June. When Professor V. R. K. Murthy was the Head of the Department.

I remember. June, so at that time,

I got letter from EGC you know,

To go as a expert committee,

to visit some universities to Ok.

what’s...what are the progress, what they want...know,

what are the drawbacks,

Ok. what are the merits...like that,

we go in a group. I was for the Physics,

there was somebody from Electronics

like that different...Chemistry, like that we visited Allahabad University,

as a team. At that time Professor Murli Manohar Joshi must be there.

2002. Maybe.

Yeah, he is working in the Allahabad University as a Professor in

Nuclear Physics Department. I could see,

interesting to see that Meghnad Saha was there, his equipment.

They were doing...were very excited,

see at that time they used to do lot of work.

Yes. It is a good university, good work is going on.

Allahabad is there top in the list.

Only thing...like any other university,

they also feel that funding is not

good like IITs you know.

So, they don’t...able to do

I mean, some work, the lack of funds. Ok.

So that was an interesting exp...

I mean experience for me to go like this.

2002 onwards. Onwards and

then the UPSC fellow they used to call,

they called several times to set questions for

IAS, IFS and all,

and then sometimes they say...they will send the

paper, that I didn’t like, because

500-600 papers, and they will give it you one week to

finish and give it back.

I said, "I can’t do now, I can set some questions

and come back," like, that.

So we used to go...also a team work.

Ok.

We go there, sit there, finish it in one week,

and come back, like that. Two-three times So, you were active even after that,

very good. I went for some time,

and then this Berhampur University they knew I retired,

they called me to come as a Visiting Professor.

Because, I was there...another thing, when I was here

I went on lien '93 to '95 at Berhampur University.

Yeah, I know that, yes. They started the Electronic Science Department.

They called me.

So, "Whether you can help us."

So I went there, because to go to your native place is interesting thing.

Yes.

You don’t...you don’t bother about the money and all. Nostalgic, ok.

You want to do something for the...your home town. Yes.

That spirit I went, but my wife was not happy,

because she used to be alone, and my...by the time

Jayanth and Prasanth they had already left. Left.

yes. So, she was finding it difficult, but somehow I

forced her, "You manage, I will go,

I will do something and come."

Ok. So that was an interesting period for me,

because you know the atmosphere, IIT and University

how much different it is. Yeah.

That too Berhampur University.

First thing I wanted to change the timing.

See they used to go at 11 o’ clock,

and come back at 3 o’ clock.

I said, "This kind of thing you cannot teach,

you cannot to improve your..."

I said, "You have to start like IIT 8 o’ clock,

and stay up to 4 o’ clock

at least," but they didn’t agree.

Why? Because most of the teachers

and student they used to stay in town. Ok.

They used to go to the camp...university campus. Yeah.

And, that is...buses are arranged.

That timing is fixed, nobody can change that driver,

that fellow will come like a maharaja, I will say.

"I will take come only 11 o’ clock and take

and bring you 3 o’ clock," like that. Its ok.

that was the constant...

I had to fight with the Vice Chancellor,

say if you want to study Electronics,

you should have a more timing and all.

Finally he agreed with lot of hesitation.

But some of the colleagues they didn’t like

because they have to come early now.

They were all staying in Berhampur.

So they said, "We we arranged a special bus for that."

The bus will go at 7 o’ clock...

So you tried to change the Berhampur University system. Change the...

system, but only that department,

I can’t do this whole...little bit I do,

then I changed the syllabus also.

I saw the old syllabus...that old

triode valve, all those things were there.

Now... I said "You change...

you change this."

So they cooperated all the colleagues, they came

and we changed all the subjects. Good.

So that was one good thing, I was happy

and, but some equipment like high vacuum unit, like that.

To do some work, experimental work you say.

And some instruments. Good.

Basic instruments in the limited facility,

that was one contribution.

Similarly, when I went to NIST the Engineering College,

still they are calling me,

I went as a Emeritus Person because after Berhampur University,

Berhampur University gave me as the Waiting

Professor, because that age limit is there.

Yes. Once you cross 70, you are not eligible.

Yeah, it is very difficult to get.

I said ok, I will stop now.

Then these people caught me, this NIST

National Institute of Science and Technology,

this is a Engineering College is a good Engineering College in Berhampur.

In Berhampur. Berhampur.

Being a private college, they can...they can ask you It is a private college.

Ok. And the Director was from USA.

So he has trained that, he knows the culture, how to deal

Ok ok. with the students and all.

He was very liberal.

So, he used to give freedom to students, as well as staff. Ok.

You do whatever useful for the students.

So that way I found...I gave some lectures,

but I said, "I can’t prepare at this age,

and give lecture, I can do as a consultant." So to lab...

some of the research lab we want to...because now,

even MHRD, are insisting that even in Engineering Colleges,

you have to develop some research also.

Yeah, it is mandate...its a mandate. Not only teaching and all.

If you want to get some funding a lot. Yes.

So they asked me "Whether you can help us?"

I said, "I whatever I know I can do." Fantastic.

Buy this thing...high vacuum we need,

buy one good furnace,

I took from here on...I took your help

everybody, where its available. Yes.

yes. And the furnace some readymade...not that

finding and all, we got a good furnace,

with a digital control and all.

Which can go up to 1400...

So right now you are still working with NIST? You don’t need...

They call me sometimes. Oh yeah.

Because that also is limited,

see the Emeritus Professor, you get only up to three years or something. Yes.

Two years, so they extend another year. Yes.

After that over, "I said ok goodbye,

whenever you need some help I will come." Great.

So still they are calling sometimes, when they have some

difficulty, or to...when I go there...go to my native place,

I’ll just visit them,

they ask some, "Give a seminar or something, I do like..."

So, finding a peaceful life in Pallikaranai in your own home?

Yeah, its ok.

And. That...luckily that’s called IIT colony.

IIT colony. So still some retired people are there.

So I don’t...I feel comfortable. Very nice.

Because our street, all the three Majhis are there.

Yeah yeah, there are three Majhis.

One Majhi is Electrical Electrical

Another Majhi is Mathematics You please catch hold of other Mahji, P. C. Majhee

who was a...first student of B. Tech.

He joined '59, ok.

So he will tell you the story how they...they...they were

they were staying Saidapet it...they used to come Yeah, yeah.

That I don’t know how it was.

Marvellous. But when I joined everything was ok,

BSB was there, department was full fledged.

So it was good.

So, I think I covered most of the things Yeah, I think we covered most of the things and

we should say thank... and then

other things of course, these things...I...what is that

I did some work for the...what is that

Pensioner’s Association, the Treasurer like that, Yeah.

is the different thing.

So you keep yourself active.

So sometimes they ask me to help...and ok.

So that’s all I think

and then another thing is...some social life was there,

we used to...mostly...students,

when I joined, very few students were there,

we used to have some picnic like that

because a beautiful campus.

Near that Durga temple you know,

Yeah. we used to cook, and the families they will come, get together,

they will cook and eat and go like that,

it was an another interesting thing.

So, at that time, students were also faithful. Yeah,

Very nice Majhi,

thank you very much for your time. Thank you very much, for your patience.

Yeah, thank you very much. Ok.

And also I thank the...your Heritage

for giving me this opportunity to talk to them, ok.

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< Back

Prof. B. V. A. Rao in Conversation With Prof. Narayanan

Professor Rao, I am very happy to be here today,

interviewing you for the Heritage Centre of IIT Madras.

Actually, you were the first person I think I met

when I joined IIT Madras officially,

when I reported for duty in the Machine Dynamics Lab on

6th January 1975. So, its really doubly pleased

that after so long I am again meeting you in the IIT campus.

And can you just tell I mean before joining IIT Madras,

where did you have your education, then what were you doing?

So, can you please tell me something about it?

Thank you Professor Narayanan.

I am happy that I am meeting one of my old colleagues,

so who knew me also so well and also whatever I have done

he can also vouch for it.

So, that's a great advantage.

So, I am so lucky to have a partner like that

like Professor Narayanan, so who was so helpful

and so guiding on many other issues

and I think the the Machine Dynamics Laboratory

has made a big name

and people like that who are all involved.

Before this- it all started,

actually the first batch of in 1958,

the first batch of the IIT Bombay started.

And when they were interviewing it in Bombay

I had just then completed my masters

at Indian Institute of Science in Internal Combustion Engines

and I was taking a training,

I was a trainee in the Kirloskar Oil Engines, Pune.

So, I have attended that interview.

The interview went very well with lot of Russian professors but

and finally, they said you do not have

teaching, actual teaching experience.

Then, then a month later I was- Director called me,

he was actually planning also Director called me

he said no no, you are not selected for that lecturer,

but we are now sending about 7-8 people to Germany

and under the some scheme for which IIT Bombay has been given.

So, if you are interested you would you like to go?

And you are selected because

you do not have to attend any interview,

we will make all arrangements.

So, it was all so exciting.

And then I went to Germany to Dresden for my PhD.

And all that there was only a class that

I should work for some years

at least minimum of some 3-4 years after coming back.

I returned in 1961, and then started working,

but I wasn't too happy there because the,

so they did not recognize any of my talent,

many of my specializations which I took.

I was tried to ask to teach something else etcetera

like thermodynamics and other things which not my areas.

Then, at the time there was a conference

on Applied Mechanics, Stated? Applied Mechanics at Bombay,

when Professor Kurt- Professor Haug,

Kurt Haug from here who was teaching,

he was a German expert

from that first one of the first German expert to come here.

So, he came here to attend that program,

and then he was very much excited

that somebody is speaking German language

[inaudible] and he himself was not so conversant with an English.

His English was always people were making fun.

But then he was excited why didn't you come

you know you are a German man and a German

research student and then you come away there.

And I am going to I am going to advertise also you see.

See how things are there you know.

He advertised soon, within partite

I saw the advertisement coming

for an Assistant Professor and I was a Lecturer.

I applied, but when I came to the interview whom do I see,

giants, giants in the field like Satish Dhawan,

an expert and such people were there.

Then I thought I may not be even get an entry

and finally, Lakshmanaswami Mudaliar,

AR's father and he was the Chairman at that time,

they were all, it's all very serious.

They were very serious in selecting people in those days

and then I was selected.

So, and then, but there they did not allow me to

immediately leave, at 6 months till their notice

I came and joined.

So, I was one of the earliest.

He was teaching vibrations

and the the students were in the final year, fifth year.

Already one to, first batch was to go out in 1963, 1959 to 63.

So, there was first batch was to go out

and then at at that time I was asked

to teach some Machine Tool Dynamics.

It was surprising 150 hours of Vibrations were taught

Mr. Narayanan at that time

and second year Vibration, third year Vibrations,

fourth because I was the only man

he was fully teaching High Vibrations

and I was so excited

that my area of specialization is bring you so much importance.

So, on that one had happened.

But none of the laboratories were coming up

because he had not even planned a building for that.

Professor Rao. Yeah.

Can you say a little more about the selection procedure?

You said Professor Satish Dhawan, Professor Laxmiswamy Mudaliar,

they were all stalwarts who were there

in the Selection Committee,

maybe something would have happened so,

you know we have been in the

interviews of other faculty members and so on,

in those days how did it go and so on.

Briefly you can touch upon that, it will be interesting.

No, they actually, Dhawan say

I also met him also much later

when I went for a CS, this CMERI directorship in Delhi.

He was the Chairperson again at that time,

that time also, I met him.

I was not selected at that time.

They were looking at something you know, spark

the people and that type of questions. Very basic questions.

And you know many of us you know we don't concentrate.

Thus that was the time you know because

one or two fundamental things which I could not answer.

The same experience I had in my PhD thesis,

Dr. Rao makes a finds out a new type of vibration

and claims that he is an expert,

but he does not know this fundamental thing you know,

the professor showed. I think, I think that is how

I need to change my views.

I think there is something wrong

with our system of education here,

mostly exam oriented people

who were all trained etcetera and other things

and I think the people

were all really looking for some spark in them that is how.

So, that is how I was concentrating mostly on

basic principles in all my course.

There was a nice saying by many stewards,

doctors were Dr. Rao's first 5-6 lectures are wonderful

afterwards only problematic because you know

lot of mathematics would come etcetera like.

But you know, so that is how

even today I had lot of people you know,

I got lot of good I mean what is it compliments

from people who have attained very high position

even in this country that my.

Were, were you informed immediately after the interview

that you have been selected or you were- Immediately, immediately.

Immediately, yeah, oh good. With a within of fortnight I got it.

Oh, ok. In October itself I got it,

but till till end of April I could not.

I joined here on 5th of May.

So, 5th of May. 93. Yeah.

19. 1963.

Yeah. And I taught the first batch

of a Mechanical in Machine Tool Dynamics [laughs] yeah.

And so, my my background was

I had a very interesting things earlier

when I did a project work in instead of Science,

on something like Induction of Alcohol to the Petrol and Diesel Engines

to see whether they will give more power.

They gave more power, but what happened was

the stresses were so high, they were failing at early.

So, many of the type of things you know

even there also research at Institute of Science

people didn't know what research was in those days.

When I joined here with the first

first only one PhD in Mechanical Engineering,

most of the senior people who were had

registered for PhD in Mechanical Department,

I was the the Doctoral Committee, so I fortunate.

So, that was the type of thing.

Even in IIT Bombay when I joined as a faculty, I was the first one

in Mechanical Engineering with a PhD from outside.

So, this was the stage,

I had a good chance to build a good team

and that's what happened here at IIT.

I said I should- No, one more thing.

So, this is Applied Mechanics Department

is not there in many institutes,

it is sort of unique maybe in-

Professors got backup. There is, yeah. It was there in IIT Delhi

which came after IIT Madras.

Of course, it was there in

Allahabad that Regional Engineering College.

So, there only very few institutes

had Applied Mechanics Department.

So, you can tell some of your experience

joining the Applied Mechanics Department and-

Yeah, first first I was actually I was when I was selected

I was not so clear at that time.

It's a departments and all these things.

I don't know when I was I was my Vibrations

you know the plan I said Vibrations,

but you know it was to be taught from the Applied Mechanics,

I am a Mechanical Engineer

I may go something like Mathematics Department

or something like Applied; people always used to

make fun of Applied Mechanics, Applied Mathematics.

And that was true also

because all of the most of the subjects were mathematical nature

which it is in elasticity. And jocularly, they used to call it as

Supplied Mechanics Department also. Supplied, yeah, yeah, yeah.

In the sense that because we were sort of. Reddy.

Supporting the other departments, yeah.

This fellow writes to be as Department of Supplied Mechanics.

So, like that. So, question is,

but I still then I said decided

I created that Machine Dynamics Laboratory.

I was the man who created the Machine Dynamics Laboratory.

I told Sengupto, Professor I am a Mechanical Engineer,

you are a Mechanical Engineer,

if I said only I am doing like this my career will be ruined there.

So, they will not, there are no mechanical fellow will teach me.

So, machine dynamics which involved many facets this one,

which I saw to it those areas did not

come up with the regular Mechanical Department.

So, it became a part of this one.

A. Ramachandran helped me because

he said you give the, you conduct your course,

but give the degree in Mechanical Engineering.

The degree was given from Mechanical Engineering,

but the course was conducted by us in Machine Dynamics.

So, that Mechanical Machine Dynamics Laboratory

as you are aware, so was one of the things

you you should show the photograph of that.

That is the one you know which I I will show you here,

the very first picture as a developer you can have a look.

Professor Haug also, he was instrumental in introducing

lot of Vibration courses at start,

the laboratories did not come up

and in that process he had to get back.

So. No. See we had the Vibrations Lab it was called.

Vibration lab. And then you said that.

It was in the first floor instead of- Yeah, you you made it, yeah.

So, the Sengupto, Professor Sengupto, the first Director realized

I said look here there is one West German doctorate,

another is the East German. I was from East German doctorate.

And I was also equally coming up with ideas

in those field because that is a field in which I worked in Germany.

You were referring to Professor Wagner, is it not? No, not Wagner.

Oh, oh, yeah, right, ok, right.

Yeah, ok. Then, I said, then you know Professor Haug,

he was not working towards much on this laboratory.

So, then he was sent.

Then, they wrote to Wagner. Wagner showed interest to come,

then he Professor Sengupto wrote very clearly

that there is already one German doctorate here,

Indian who has come from East German this thing,

but you may have some differences here etcetera

and other thing you know the political situation.

But he has lot of ideas.

So, if you are able to work with him together you are welcome.

He said I will have no problem

and he was a wonderful man professor Wagner and you know-

So, say when we the vibration because

vibration is the German

Indo-German the GTZ with IIT Madras was

no classified area should be taken.

Like for example, Aeronautics was not supported.

For example, why; say for example,

here we Applied Mechanics and Aeronautics

was combined for some time,

but immediately it had been withdrawn like that.

So, you could see the Vibrations Lab when when I

expanded by the activities not only vibrations, tribology,

we should maintain many other areas, acoustics, etcetera

you can see the number of team that joined here.

Mr. Velusamy is here, Mr., Mr. C. R. Subramaniam,

all of them were retired in a very-

We have do not have two or three people there,

Ramamurthi, Ganesh were all my students.

Ganeshan was my student,

then Prabhu was my first PhD student.

Then, then C. R. Subramaniam was, ?was working with me.

And all my colleagues here many of these people

who stood solidly behind me in building up just lab.

Today, I am very proud of that lab because

when I see the ultimately at the at the end of my retirement at 63,

that lab had produced large number of PhDs

which no other laboratory had made.

The number of publications was so high

and the number of academy of engineering,

there were 5 people with Ramesh etcetera,

6 people from the same laboratory was done actually.

That is a great credit to the IIT Madras

and particularly this laboratory.

And this is the laboratory, what was I was initial stages

to and I was happy to involve.

The first to chop you know ISRO,

Abdul Kalam used to come and sit and discuss with us

like this, what he wants.

He wanted a Hydraulic Vibration Machine

to consolidate the solid propellants in rockets.

At that time all the indigenous this thing.

So, we I developed a Hydraulic Vibration Machine.

It came also next picture, next picture you can see that.

See here, we got a NRDC Award,

Imports Substitution Award for this.

It has a one tonne shaker with this one,

we did it also for several other people.

And even for tractor seats etcetera

that was one of the first experimental projects that we developed here.

So, when they wanted see,

we wanted to simulate satellites

actually on a platform here,

we developed a 10 inch stainless stainless steel ball with pure air jets

with a platform on which the satellites are mounted

and they could give get 6 degrees of freedom.

And then, they they are deputed two with people

to IIT, ISRO people

for 2 for 2 years to develop that whole city.

The third one was they wanted to expose

later on I will show see, these all the

people you know we we developed for the industry.

We this laboratory particularly

worked very closely with the industry

and we had lot of major projects

which got us good laurels like Import Substitution,

Invention Awards etcetera, many other things etcetera.

See, see this is the one which we developed

and which came in newspapers and all that.

You can see that.

And first we used hydraulic,

we also used the pneumatic shakers.

These are all very; see you can see that IIT team develops

Vibrator Dr. B. V. A. Rao etcetera

names are there in the Hydraulic Vibration Machine.

I think this is something really heritage to see that you know

how how this institute.

I think Professor Wagner is also very good at

solving some of the industrial problems and so on.

He was. And later on he became

the founder of the Industrial Consultancy and

Sponsored Research Centre. Wagner see, Wagner you know what happened was

1968 he joined and immediately I went as the home board,

I was the first Home Board Fellow to be selected by from IIT Bombay.

So, I went to Kalsubai at that during that period. IIT Pune or IIT Madras.

IIT Madras, yeah. Yeah, right.

During that period he was managing.

The moment you know 69 I retired,

he left and handed over the charge to me

in the Machine Dynamics Laboratory.

And that's how we continued for example, RVR Sastri,

now who joined later Bharat Dynamics Limited,

this is the where Ramamurthi's project for the KCP.

We know the drums and trammels etcetera

which makes lot of noise and vibrations you know

when they mix up etcetera

and they are messing the stresses.

This is our bed this is what I feel today,

you have dumped all sorts of things on that,

it is a we we took an enormous efforts

to put up that beautiful isolation bed,

unique isolation bed in perhaps in the whole country

where we can test

but But sir, still it is there and it is being used.

I do not know, yes.

You can see the how they how they whole laboratory.

The shock testing machine was developed by me

for shocks, how this is, because

we helped also IGCR in the shock phenomena and other thing

because they wanted to see

when they are blasting the jetty

whether the reactors etcetera will go into?

So, we were concentrating essentially

on lot of industrial projects of high magnitude

and high need to the country etcetera

with like ISRO, DRDO, BARC,

I mean all of us you should know the exception

without all that help I mean I could not have done it.

Such a team cooperation was there from all the colleagues.

Although some people did not see eye to eye with me,

but still we worked together.

No, no you can tell something about your colleagues

in the Machine Dynamics Lab Exactly.

as well as the other section no, Applied Mechanics Department,

we had the Fluid Mechanics Lab,

the Solid Mechanics Section and so on,

and later on the Biomechanics

and the Biomedical Engineering section also joined.

You see. So, perhaps.

Brief report which I wrote

see the Applied Mechanics went through a hard times at that time

because there was no permanent head of the department.

D. V. Reddy was there, he was always one

one leg here, one he was and finally, board out there.

Then, they combined Aeronautics and Applied Mechanisms

that did not work out, according to Germans that was removed.

And what one time both we were three laboratories there,

Vibrations Laboratory, then Elasticity Laboratory,

and also the Fluid Mechanics Laboratory,

all 3 of us from Bangalore, Indian Institute of Science.

Each of us had, but we are all assistant professors only, all 3.

So, they used to call trimurtis in those days

because of we we occupied 3 different positions.

At one time when we were all 3 of us went to Germany

nobody was here and you know the department suffered a lot.

So, you can see the our industrial consultations

and we had we had very good I don't know

at that time I I I spent about 3-4 years in Germany

for before that, I could see how hard it is that,

but we had equally capable people amongst us,

like R. V. R Sastri, Swarnamani.

In Electronics in those days, they were all coming up,

there was, they could develop a good sensors.

And you, I also put up here many of the things

we had developed indigenously, indigenously,

because indigenization was very much encouraged,

with those you can see are all we are testing with the bus duct.

All all the things nuclear plants, everything was tested etcetera.

You can see even; how to put up good foundations

for vibration free foundations etcetera

which we are all doing it here, this itself is done.

What was happened was in the HSB building, next building

the vibrations were affecting the semiconductor laboratory in the top floor.

Correct. We saw the blow, this one come this one come in

air conditioner blower's compressors that were used,

so they were creating that problem through.

So, those things were

we put up separate special beds etcetera to see that thing.

That means, we developed a capacity to

organize ourselves because that's how the industry people

were very much this one.

Ultimately, when we produced large number of PhDs in vibration area.

Acoustics area I was tying,

because see Acoustics I did not have much

because that is the one area I picked up much later after coming,

but no the acoustics particularly with Dr. Narayan's entry,

this one we worked very close this one

along with Civil Engineering people and all that

and so acoustics also become a very important thing.

We used to teach shipal ship vibrations,

ship ship acoustics, and such areas also

interacting with other department.

We always thought you know the Applied Mechanics as a Supplied Mechanics.

We should supply we should we should feedback

good areas from this.

All mathematical mathematical to the other department,

so that we do it.

But still we are although we are mathematical,

we were doing hard hard hard-

You know you can also talk about the new programmes

which were started on Industrial Tribology,

M.Tech in Machine Dynamics,

M.Tech in Industrial Tribology

because 19 after 1993 I left.

The the Machine Dynamics Laboratory published a brochure,

giving all the publications and activities and everything,

they have, there they have acknowledged me.

The courses the postgraduate programme

started in Machine Dynamics majoring in vibration and sound,

the tribology majoring in lubrication, friction and wear,

and the maintenance engineering and management in reverse

are all essentially due to Dr. Rao.

You know they are unique programmes, I mean the

the maintenance in management

it was in that those days it was not even countries you know. And not the.

Types. Yeah.

Because these were coming in newspapers,

yes world is facing these problems oil crisis,

oil will lot of failures due to vibration dynamic effects.

So, we immediately transferred here

because you know what happens I will tell ultimately,

anything is done we realize it much later,

maybe even after the person is not there,

you know that that is our nature.

But how we were doing at that time,

but nobody nobody talked about it,

we thought it is all just normal things we were doing,

but actually what we were doing was

what if the country reads and we were at the right.

If that type of policy had followed

of the Nehru's policy at that time

I don't think this globalization would have come

and we had to depend on outside people etcetera

for so many things etcetera and other things.

So, we had the capability.

For example, the missile testing, when they were firing the missiles,

four and half kilometres they were wasting one missile casting the enormous.

So, we developed a ray keeping the missile and pulling the wires

with the same acceleration characteristic for testing,

qualification testing and that got an Invention Award for us.

Yeah, no the the acoustic testing facility for high

High Intensity noise levels.

Of some of these spacecraft structures.

So, you see how They are also unique.

See my people, Rao's people will see the

number of people I would take, not one.

That was my thing.

I wanted to knowledge to assimilate to many people,

not one, not live with me alone,

that was my trump at that day.

See, the number of people got involved

from Civil Engineering, Mechanical Engineering, Electronics,

everybody and other thing,

I was we are doing at the Ennore

because loose soil whether we need piles and other things

strong foundation or not

we were helping them those people here.

If we just quickly go through it,

it shows a lot of very interesting things in this big picture

you can see how how we how to how to find out these things.

All these are some of our criteria,

but see the number of colleagues.

This is a damper, this is how or one Dr. Wagner was was,

I thought you know he would also be like the earlier professor,

he may not put any of these things,

but he was wonderful

this he was the man to first to introduce

how to test the dampers and analyse.

And one of my PhD student

worked on the transmission line, same thing too.

See, every project we did.

You know these Stockbridge dampers were used. 2 or 3 2 or 3

project from PhDs we produced on that

that is the credit; that means, it was not only an industrial work,

but also project project work for PhDs.

So, that is how the

the systems were totally different there at that time.

Can see the, these are all the things indigenously developed,

test etcetera. We had a lot of good things.

You can see the bus rides very very areas.

So, some of the things you know

we have ourself developed in the laboratories

like sensors, vibrators and other things

are also shown in this photographs.

I don't know if you are able to make what is,

what saying what is Machine Dynamics Laboratory.

So, if you can able to put it.

I it will be a good thing for future people to see that.

Do you have that acoustic transversibility?

Yeah. Tested that for; that photograph also.

Go to go to the almost to end sir, I will show you

just by go for. You see these are all industrial,

these are the things we developed.

We could have continued with that work type of work,

but indigenous development. Next, last one you go sir.

This is for the tire stress analysis. Yeah, yeah.

Bagomatic press. this over in this,

it may be in the other one. The the next one that I put it I think.

Yeah, here little lower.

You will go there. Yeah, you go there. Yeah, I could see.

These are all PhD works.

See, even Germans gave me an equipment here.

So, I invited the director

and also the German consulate for people and you know.

See, this is the one, the SLV-3, first rocket Abdul Kalam shared.

We created a facility outside 180 dB,

inside it should be 80 dB;

that means, 180 dB means if you are get explore out

for a minute because you cannot even go about more than 120, 130.

But such risk we took in developing, we created horns,

all all they here you know the the there the

Thermodynamics Laboratory we created all these facilities and did it.

So, we interacted with many other departments and their facility.

So, can I say something in the?

See, we we were the first to have this type of acoustic high intensity,

Oh, yeah. acoustic test facility in our lab.

This was one of Professor Rao's PhD student Professor Ram Bhatt

he developed it, but later on the ISRO people

they found a use for this testing

to qualify some of the payloads

which have been sent to sent by rockets and so on,

but now in ISRO in Bangalore they have.

students developed that. So, they have a big testing facility

Yes and also in n-test in Imarat that is DRDO lab,

they they have a big reverberation test facility and

they we have all been design review team

we were reviewers and so on.

But I want to say that this was the first facility

which was created in the country for this acoustic tensibility. we should not like too much.

In the Kaveri engine you must have heard of the GTRE was going on

lot of problems. You know finally,

I have got still that letter Abdul Kalam wrote

please consult Dr. Rao, is that letter is there.

So, they consulted me

and I gave solution within within 2 months.

Now, how why that noise where that noise is coming from,

and what could be that is

because it was a non-linear vibration

which they are not not even perceived etcetera.

Anyhow, so this glory somehow

why I am trying to tell is this somehow

we could have glorified in those it, so much, but we did not do it.

We did not do it.

But you know we were in the right direction

how these things could come.

I think the Heritage Centre should take some steps

to see that see the the

how the future generation people should pick up.

Perhaps you can say something about that

noise test which we carried out in the airport you know

for if you remember something on that yes, right. See

I have put up here.

This is not only my credit here,

this old projects, all are major projects.

Yeah that we can- All are major projects.

Year wise I have put it here.

See, when Pondicherry Airport,

Pondicherry when Pondicherry they wanted to put a airport

there was objection from- Saleem Ali.

Saleem Ali for this you know for for long we affected

and also the the hospital people

the Pondicherry Hospital people.

And the other Saleem Ali and this one there was objection.

Then the ministry people wrote to me,

wrote to us somehow recommended go to our laboratory.

So, we along with Narayanan and couple of people

2 or 3, Ramachandran and others. Professor Subramanian and Ramchandran.

24 hours we stood on the Meenambakkam Airport

in the high grass where that come you know

where the 7 4 7s would just land on our head

taking a great risk you know in those days,

measured the noise level for the all the higher

level aircrafts, 24 hours.

2 days we did it.

It was a great risk we took.

From that we plotted what is called

noise exposure forecast contours, NEF contours.

These contours show that

within that contour no building should come safe

because they will be subjected to aircraft noise

which can cause lot of serious problems.

And so, none of these people who are complaining

did not come within that range

that was our, but still the Pondicherry airport was cleared,

they completed the whole what is that that runway.

Again, there was a problem

and myself, Narayanan and myself went

we went to the hospital people who complained

with the green dress we are all put on because

we are also because during an operation they wanted to show that.

And we showed that the noise made by their that generators

was much more than the single aircraft

that would fly on this thing.

You know we had a wonderful.

We we also met you remember that Trissur.

Yeah. Trissur, the whole area they were complaining of

textile mill which was coming out the the sleepless nights

and the children got lot of effects etcetera.

And we used to this the magistrate of dispute

give that gave that project to us

and we tried to sort out that problem.

I mean I can go on large number of projects which were done.

Luckily I had a good camera in those days

none of these people were using any camera

that is how I was able to keep so many of these photographs

and I would be very happy to see that these these things

are all given back to you to the Heritage Centre

and you know that each each will speak

a story by itself and each.

So, what I want to do is I know that is a limited. No, can you

just list some of the major projects which are been- Yeah, yeah it is written already.

You can just read or. No I I read

I will make this whole report. I have to correct my English here

because it was written in ? and I will. No problem.

major projects I will give brief account its already written.

I will put everything together.

It can be kept in one of the things

for people who want to really see what Machine Dynamic is.

Somehow you know for example, today tomorrow today

Machine Dynamics Laboratory does not exist.

Now, that's why I am trying to talk little more emphatically

because if it was continuing it is a different story,

in that manner it is not, in that manner it is not there.

And you know that after the computers and other things

today's way of looking at its a totally different issue, ok.

And but question is at those days it was experimentation

which working with hands

and you know these are the type of things you know

which were very much needed.

Professor Rao, you you have

joined the IIT Madras at a very early date

when the institute has just started.

So, you must have had other experience apart from

academics, teaching, and so on,

you would have been involved in some

as a warden or sports can you say highlight.

Oh. Some of those activities, some anecdotes and.

That is a big story.

Yeah. When I joined in 63, hardly it,

see all the all the laboratories were managed by the Germans.

They were there, but many German laboratories

were still to be equipped,

not many of them had come,

and and least with applied mechanics, ok.

So, by many of us we were available for other works

like Alumni Association, then the Gymkhana,

hostels, Staff Club, Faculty Club like that.

So, we were all utilized very nicely.

I also bought out this very nicely this

when we got another, when D. V. Reddy left,

we got a professor from Caltech

one S. R. Valluri, the later who became the Director of the NAL.

And he found aghast what is these people doing,

Assistant Professors and other things,

they are doing hostel work and this work,

they are not doing any research work, you know

that is how he tried to look at the things etcetera.

And then when A. Ramchandran took over,

he also found lot of young people

instead of spending their time on research in laboratories

they were all wasting their Faculty Clubs, Gymkhanas

and other types of things you know because this is not the way.

I was the warden of hostel and also a Chairman Council of Wardens.

So, immediately said get out then.

So, within the within that 3 months,

I got the Humboldt Fellowship really would be

that is how it happened.

So, that was all a history.

But you know if you see the the team work,

if you feel the Machine Dynamics Laboratory.

And then the the type of experiments

we built up you can see that even.

So, we had a lot of teams as you can see here.

Me, I am also there in the.

This is which team it is?

Sir, may be. Professor Sengupto, yourself there.

No, this is it is Sastri, this is alumni

I was, I was. Yeah.

Yeah, this photo I do not have,

this photo I don't have at all.

See, this is very nice. So, alumni.

So, particularly you know they were all,

see you are you see you are a Institute of Science Professor,

I mean studied etcetera you are doing

all sorts of nonsense work, now that is how it happened.

So, like that. It was very interesting

and to see that many of these things.

That's why I have I have particularly mentioned in this one.

But one thing about the team between these three sections

we had, and then I was also instrumental

in starting the Biotech, Bio Biomedical Engineering.

There was a lot number of times it came to the Senate,

somehow it was dropped because there won't be the

job opportunities etcetera. But when I became

Head of the Department, I bought the Biomedical Engineering

the first student of Biomedical Engineering

one Mr. Thirumalai you know that even today

he sends me the car to whether airport or station to pick me up

and his car only going around for me.

I mean that is about Biomedical Engineering was

established only by me in that one.

So, that, so we had 4 sections

Elasticity Group, Fluid Mechanics, Machine Dynamics Group,

and this one that was the very homogenous team

and you know in which.

No, initially I think it was called Bio-Mechanics

there was a Professor Ghista.

Professor Patil. nothing happened, but he tried his best,

but it could not go through.

No, later on it became Biomedical Engineering. Biomedical Engineering, Biomedical Engineering.

So, I finally, wanted to say.

No, your experiences in the campus?

Experience with? In the campus.

Ok. Campus Maybe your social life in the campus.

I think you had a good garden, your wife was involved in Oh.

Ladies Club and so on.

Those things also. Yeah. She was very active she was.

My wife was very active.

She was a dancer herself in those days, earlier days.

And so she used to give also performances

here in the early days and you believe or not she,

myself and my wife used to go even in the double ride in the cycles.

Ok. In in the old times.

And she was she even today loves gardens and this one flowers.

So, she got for 7 successive years the best garden prize.

So, at at the hostel and whenever we had

put up etcetera and another thing.

And she was she also became the president of the Ladies Club

and she was quite active in those things

and that is how I have been active.

So, for her only this school was started in Bangalore

in 1942, I am say 75 year old institution.

I am just running as a president.

I am also that was the pre-school

which was started in Montessori System.

I am also the President of the Indian Montessori Centre.

Just I retired from Vietnam,

the first batch of your Montessorians were trained there

and all that. So, all these things I lastly you know.

No, you have mentioned about you know your tennis

activities, club activities and so on and-

Yes, because you know everything you are asking,

that's very nice of you, good No, no

Question is because even there,

even although I did not do anything in the laboratories

and research area at that time

whatever I did with perfection.

I was the first Secretary for the tennis court also, tennis court.

And so, when I retired

I instituted a rolling trophy- B.V.A. Rao Single's Trophy

in in tennis that continue and

E. G. Ramachandran's Double Trophy were for.

It continued for some years

and I do not know what happened to that etcetera thing.

So, whatever I did even there I was

when I was a all of them were professors,

but I was only the Assistant Professor who became

the Chairman Council of Wardens those days 1968

in charge of the Taramani house also and all that.

So, I did a lot of,

my my time was very glorious time for me,

it gave me a lot of opportunities to learn

and interact with people

and I always took a lot of interest in

not only in these things also,

but in sports and social activities and other things.

That's why although I retired in June 93,

I always kept contact with this lab especially with

close friends and colleagues like Narayanan

who is who interviewed me today.

And I considered this day as my greatest memorable day

for providing me an opportunity

to recollect what all I contributed

to the growth of this lab and the department I belong.

Maybe perhaps the way in which I have talked

may not be in order that's why I put it in writing

you can see that in each area,

so what has been contributed is also been explained.

And I want to know since it has come out in this shape,

I want to add little more etcetera and things

make with with photographs I put it

and sent it to you as a monograph

which can be put up here.

The uniqueness and greatness of this laboratory

can be gauged by the number of fellows

of the Indian National Academy of Engineering,

we were 6 of us. I was the first one to get.

And so, we were 6 of us,

and unfortunately 2 are no more,

both of them were voracious PhD producers of this laboratory

and who had largest number of publications in international journals.

As human beings we have our own shortcomings,

but when work come here,

we all worked as a team to uphold the name of this lab

in the highest pedestal

that such a lab is no longer there today

makes all the old timers

who contributed to its growth and fame, feel very sad.

My humble request that it deserves to be kept

as a museum for generations to remember

at this place that there was a lab like this.

Professor Rao. Like we tell.

Ok. That all people will wonder

a man like this walked down this earth for Gandhiji.

Professor Rao, can you remember something about

these these look like some shock.

Kelvin, yeah. Yeah, right.

So, it has been some negatives you have been taken by Dr. Gauri.

Klein. It will be Klein, yeah.

See, I know it. right.

There is no v.

Dr. Klein, we got a Klein,

Dr. Klein came here for a Fluid Mechanics.

And so, he was he,

in fact, he has given me a very good certificate also,

I took it took it for some time you know

he was because Germans are very practical people.

If you go to a German labs

they don't work on some small gadgets etcetera

they will work with one to one.

Regular machines and that itself they will work do research.

So, that is the type.

And they are all used to that type of research

that's why it would take long time

7 to 8 years for their PhD.

So, these are the shock tubes.

And they were also doing for the buses

the whether the flow.

Separation. Flow separations etcetera.

Yeah. Fluid mechanics was doing it.

Elasticity also was very well

led by you know he died long ago,

but you know he was a wonderful man.

There are lot of work was done on

photo elasticity and other things including Jay Ramachandran

who contributed also to the. No, no even now

I think Professor Ramesh is continuing. Ramesh

On Digital Photo Elasticity. rather a wonderful digital photography.

So, we had an excellent group

and that tradition is also still continuing here.

And lastly, I think you you all remember perhaps

when I retired in 93

some of the professional societies joined

and also my students joined

to institute a endowment price in my name B. V. A. Rao.

I didn't give any single price.

So, they have kept the money and every convocation,

it's given for the best student.

Now, because since we should all these things have got,

they are giving it for the Applied Mechanics.

Yeah. So, I have been now branded finally,

Applied Mechanics man not a mechanical man.

Do you remember some interesting anecdotes

and so on in which happened during your time, yeah?

Lot of it, lot. Lot. A few of them you can,

is a sort of interesting

which will be really recorded for memory sake,

I think you can tell, yeah.

Starting with Professor Kurt Haug,

Kurt and always remember,

recently he also died.

Yeah. A Professor Kurt as a great friend of mine.

When I worked with VIT for 12 or 13 years

Haug, his Haug his English was not so good.

So, every time he would tell my my husband,

sir we used to we used to correct. So, my wife;

not sir, not my husband

and my husband he would tell. Sir, doesn't matter.

So, he would say doesn't matter.

And I am taking about Wagner, Wagner once said Rao

I do not know what is wrong with these Tamilians.

See, Germany when you say, this means yes.

This means no. Only Vietnam is this means yes,

this means no, opposite.

I checked up recently Vietnam is it correct,

it is correct, but these Tamilains

when I tell something to do that you will say like this.

That means, it has got both components

vertical and horizontal components.

Both the rotation and linear motion are.

Sort of superimposed, ok.

So, like that you know we used to have a lot of.

You know Professor Wagner used to

perform magics in the campus you know. Magics.

You know that is how he was treated well in the the in the in the jails.

Yeah. Because he was also arrested after the war.

Ok. So, they were all involved you know that in the Second World War.

But this man used to do magic,

so by that they were all impressed

and they would give little separately something you know

treat them all a little bit. Wagner was a was a great man.

He also passed away recently, about a year ago.

So. Can you tell something about Professor Ramamurthy,

Professor Prabhu and.

Ramamurthy was a man, first man after I joined

Ramamurthy was a man

whom whom whom I interviewed also.

I was also in the interview at that time

because by the time you know they said because

no German professor was there and so I was involved.

He was he had a good record of

coming from IIT Kharagpur and other things and all that.

But he had not completed his PhD,

then he registered under Dr. R. S. Alwar

and then you know there was some problem etcetera

then I was that time in Germany and talk;

he finished his Germany.

After a PhD he wanted to be more independent.

Did my my my thing was

I said my knowledge must percolate

not only to the students,

but also to the industry people.

So, lot of industry people used to

come with dynamic problems and other things.

But problem is they were not really interested

in in what is that, working with other projects

or spending money on these things etcetera and all that.

They were not interested.

But I said I would discuss for hours with them

what can happen all this.

So, I used to also invite being number two here.

So, after that he went to Germany and came back

afterwards said Professor Rao

my rate will be 200 rupees per hour if you call me.

I cannot waste time with these people.

Thank you. So, that is a day

that is a day, I we never worked together,

for next 20 years, more than more than 20 years.

But but we are in the same laboratory, same people,

he also guided number of people etcetera

along with me and all that.

And he was great and you know

recently the I am I am more known outside the IIT

as B. V. A. means Bearing Vibration Acoustic Rao.

B. V. A. Rao almost introduced in every conference and seminar.

B. V. A. means Bearing Vibration,

that is three things which I introduced here.

Bearing means tribology, vibration,

acoustics that is the dynamics,

so which I introduced. So, was.

So, that is how it happened.

And I this condition mounting society of India,

I used to inaugurate

and he used to give key note address.

We used to work, we became close friends

and last you know when he was in the deathbed almost

with suffering from cancer, living in cancer,

we ourselves went and all that met I met twice

him, he was very jovial and talked etcetera and other thing.

So, so he was also remembering

some of the things etcetera about that one, ok.

Yeah, he was remembering that we used to do

lot of experiments in those days. That's why glorious tribute here

to to Ramamurthy also.

One more thing we should said,

we took a project for Bharat Dynamics Limited

that wire spool unwinding machine.

I used to take not only my laboratory,

from Mechanical I used to take,

I used to take from Electrical Engineering,

and also Electronics people

because it involved a lot of things etcetera and all

several time when one Professor Ramaswamy was there,

it is that time I used to take him.

We built a thyristor.

Thyristor was still you know new in those days etcetera.

So, a 15th 1500 kilo watt DC motor

has to drive a gearbox

running from 1500 to 15000.

At the end of which a disc with 400 mm

with a sonic speed,

very complicated set up we developed

for the biodynamics and then what happened

when everything was tested

and then was happening we took and put it there,

take the blast that the whole building went off.

You have seen one of the pictures like that

you getting a etcetera not that one,

but I showed in one of the later that disaster, disaster.

So, Ramaswamy said no, you you people,

your mechanical fellows are the failures.

So, I have all my energies wasted

in this developing this control etcetera and other things.

I won't come. Pandalai was Director, he said come later

then, so Pandalai has called me,

so the project was came to almost tell still this one.

So, this man said he will not come

and he will not again look into it.

So, that we we had no idea about that,

you has to only to know it.

At that time V. V. Sastry had then just come back from Germany,

I will take V. V. Sastry sir.

No, he does not know anything about this project etcetera.

Doesn't matter. I took V. V. Sastry, got it completed.

Then, a 2 months later

the Brigadier Antony was the Chief of the Bharath Dynamics,

wrote to me Professor Rao

although this is a classified project

it should not be publicized outside

because of the efforts you people have taken

I would like to recommend it to the invention motion body.

And I gave the name of Ramaswamy also.

Ramaswamy had stopped talking for me

it was that 6 months by that time

and then when he when he saw in the newspaper

that he got it, he was very excited that came become.

So, these are all, ok the part of the game.

Question is now everything was

was in the interest of the institution

and its growth and we never let down anybody outside

that any project has failed because of our efforts.

No, no I would like to mention that you know

nowadays people take pride in multidisciplinary

projects involving a number of departments and so on.

Even in those days I think such things were were happening,

I mean people were not knowing that

their they stress lot of importance on interdisciplinary,

multidisciplinary projects, but

that has been there right from the beginning.

I am humbled and honoured to receive

this accolade from the President World Federation.

I am equally grateful to the President of Institution

who nominated me to this honour

that I am receiving this international recognition

at this age of mine is a great wonder and satisfaction to me

that my efforts in this direction to share the knowledge

and academic experience with larger group of students

and professionals for nearly 55 years

has been greatly recognized today.

In this regard, I would like to share briefly the approaches

followed by me in engineering education, that's important,

all the time without any expectations of whatever nature.

Some more right from the beginning of my career

at IIT and other places, always believed

in wonder in order to wonder, which I acquired from

my earlier projects of Masters and PhD works.

This means that I always aimed towards

both breadth and depth competence

which many may not agree.

My wandering to different associated areas

in which I scarcely had knowledge

resulted in guiding large numbers of students

to get specialized in them

who in turn brought me later laurels.

This made me to believe more and more strongly

in wonder in order to wonder.

Only through wandering in unexplored new fields

we reap ultimately wonderful outcomes.

Perhaps a few of my earlier distinctions such as the fellowship of

the Indian National Academy of Engineering from INAE

in 1988, The National Design Award

from the Institution of Engineers in 2004

and The Golden Doctorate from the

Technical University addressed in Germany in 2011,

they gave 50 year later they given,

were all good promises.

Another strategy as strictly followed

from the beginning of my career

was to combine research and practice simultaneously.

Through several projects and consultations

I came closer to many industries

which in turn earned me many credits.

The outcome of all these undertakings was

to make others shine, make other shine

which would result ultimately in our own shining

getting shined of having contributed to

a couple of innovative industry leaders

an absolute present day

requirement to meet global challenges.

You know the Suresh, Suresh who was the ISRO Chairman

we have taught him vibrations taught a vibrations

such people you know big were Padmabhushan, Padmabushans,

they are all becoming all those people.

Many of those Padmabhushans are all by our students only.

In this regard, the steps taken etcetera

is recognized the importance of engineering education

towards the betterment of quality engineering

and industrial leadership is praiseworthy and most cherished.

So, I will just mentioned that

is a very important thing that most of our youngsters,

ok there may be experts,

very highly knowledgeable in their this thing

and and in computer computations experimentation.

But without if they do not work with hands

we don't do this type of projects,

so we we remain the same thing.

And we will we will not be able to

we we may get to this one, but that will never work.

So, ultimately what he did a country is,

we may have 1000s of papers, I don't want to name.

Some people have got 6000 papers, 600 PhDs,

not even one of them has seen the daylights,

they all go to their shelves.

But what what country is now looking at is

the people with that's it

how we should be something, something that

not even one equipment which I cannot work.

Even today we talk of anything,

we talk of C. V. Raman's Raman effect that's all.

Which other scientist which other great engineer has made.

For example, the same WFEO gives one medal

for construction management for a Civil Engineer,

not even one from India.

So many people from outside

because they are all developed lot of that type of

Civil Engineering jobs, they get it.

So, the question now is

somewhere we are, we lack in these things

and Nehru's policy of these IITs to go to the various countries

to get a new knowledge etcetera has been totally floored

because all the IITs are following the same pattern now today.

We should have got the German pattern,

Bombay should have got a Russian pattern,

we Delhi should have got the Delhi justice pattern.

If they had followed that type,

we would have knowledge from all those countries

here in this country and at least

we would have been much in a different way

in engineering education as well as the industrial development.

So, this is my message I would like to give to the Heritage

from our past experience.

And I thank you, thank Professor Narayanan

and professor other good old friends here who are all here.

So, who made this this one

and I promise that I will complete this report

and you promise that it will be kept for for

publicity etcetera and other things for people to read.

Is there anything else to go?

So, thank you Professor Rao.

It's very nice. Thank you Narayanan.

Talking to you. Yeah.

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Prof. M. Ravindran in conversation with Prof. V.G. Idichandy

Professor Ravindran, I was trying to do some research

on your work that has been done during your career.

I have seen ... 4 different stages.

[Prof. Ravindran] Mm. [Prof. Idichandy] Probably, we will restrict the interview to these 4 stages

and it is probably for everybody who has done as much work as you

we have much more stages

but that we will see later on whether it can be added.

First one is of course, your childhood, schooling

and you studied in PSG College.

[Prof. Ravindran] Yes. [Prof. Idichandy] So, the first stage is up to completion of undergraduate

[Prof. Ravindran] Yes, yes. [Prof. Idichandy] in Mechanical Engineering in PSG.

Second stage though there is some employment in between,

but you came to IIT as a Technical Teacher Trainee.

[Prof. Ravindran] Yes. [Prof. Idichandy] And then you joined the faculty,

worked in Turbomachines Laboratory.

And ... I know fully well that

you're - your heart is more in the Turbo Machine Laboratory

wherein you know you have developed a lot of

experimental set up. So, that is the second stage.

Of course, in between you went to Germany

there also you had...you know,

made use of whatever is possible in Germany to ...

[Prof. Ravindran] Yes. [Prof. Idichandy] you know, get your Ph.D. done, back here in India.

So, that will be the second stage.

The third stage is, you know, Ocean Engineering,

because the Director has identified you as, you know,

faculty for Ocean Engineering to - to cut a lot of work ...

in establishing the department experimental facilities.

[Prof. Ravindran] Yes. [Prof. Idichandy] I know a little more in detail because I was also working

[Prof. Ravindran] Yes, yes. [Prof. Idichandy] with you at that time. So, therefore, that is the next stage.

Then there is a fourth stage probably

that is the biggest contribution that you have done

for the country in developing ocean technology.

That is the - as the Founder-Director of NIOT

which is an offshoot from IIT to start with,

but it has grown much beyond IIT

before you stepped down at the age of superannuation.

[Prof. Ravindran] Yes. [Prof. Idichandy] Later, if you add one more stage

it will be the stage wherein you are giving back to the society

and that is something which many people don’t do.

Those who are doing they may like to

pay some money and then forget about it.

But in your case, it is doing things

to make life in a very rural setting much more comfortable.

And your association with the - the tribal health initiative;

I mean these are something

which many of our friends should learn,

so that they give back to the society

what they have derived from it

and that is probably the fourth stage of your work, career.

Out of this, all different segments,

where do you - which one do you think is the most important?

[Prof. Ravindran] Why? [Prof. Idichandy] See, there are the [inaudible] the importance

it means to me personally and to the -

to the nations around - around the country.

I will [inaudible] that the contribution to the country

as a new development of an Institute of Ocean Technology

first time in our country is a contribution to the nation

because that has really started on a good way and if IIT and

we have not worked together,

that institute would not have come at all.

[Prof. Idichandy] Yes. [Prof. Ravindran] So, that was a very great effort and contribution to the nation

in the field of Ocean Technology.

The other one ... the social

society-related activity is giving me a great pleasure.

[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah. [Prof. Ravindran] Because there you see that...there are people who need of help

and we are able to give them some help

and they are extremely happy.

And you can see that it is useful to them, immediately.

So, that way I found that - that

these two are two different aspects, you know.

[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah. [Prof. Ravindran] This is a pride coming from our contribution

to the nation on high technology, new technology,

whereas, that is coming from contribution to humans.

From what is your capability, you are helping people and

and you are happy that it is useful to them.

So, these are two different things, at two different levels,

but both of things I - I give really good-

[Prof. Idichandy] Equal importance, ok. [Prof. Ravindran] - equal weightage to both of them.

[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah. I always look upon you as an institution builder.

It is not only in IIT,

wherein in Ocean Engineering Department

from practically nothing it has come to a stage

wherein it is one of the best laboratories in the country

and perhaps in South-East Asia

and NIOT - of course, there is no question.

I mean, I - I - I know that - that is, your heart was in that

almost nearly 10 years as Founder-Director

I think from practically nothing - a piece of paper

[Prof. Ravindran] Yes. [Prof. Idichandy] wherein MoU is written between IIT and DoD

to what you see in Pallikaranai right now is because of your planning,

and that way I think you can be

very very proud of as an institution builder.

[Prof. Ravindran] Yeah. [Prof. Idichandy] And of course, to the society what you are

[Prof. Ravindran] Yes. [Prof. Idichandy] giving back is something that is

[Prof. Idichandy] probably - [Prof. Ravindran] That came - that - by accidently - I didn’t plan for it

[Prof. Idichandy] Ok. [Prof. Ravindran] I didn’t want it.

Actually it came out of the interest of the IIT

[Prof. Idichandy] Ok. [Prof. Ravindran] to help the government to build this institution.

So, I mean the government

made a request to the then Director, IIT Madras,

[Prof. Idichandy] Yes. [Prof. Ravindran] and through the Dean, Professor Raju.

So, they said yes.

If at all somebody could develop this institute

only IIT Madras could initiate this;

we will provide the initial infrastructure, administrative support.

[Prof. Idichandy] Ok. [Prof. Ravindran] And they said, we need somebody to lead it.

We will also give you a person to lead it,

without even telling me they proposed my name.

[Prof. Idichandy] Now, that is the type of confidence the IIT system had in [Prof. Ravindran] So.

[Prof. Idichandy] Professor Ravindran's time. [Prof. Ravindran] I wore this tag only to the institute, IIT.

[Prof. Idichandy] And - and you have also proven the confidence that has been, you kow

put on you, ok.

[Prof. Idichandy] Let us go back to the stage one: [Prof. Ravindran] Yes.

[Prof. Idichandy] the childhood, your schooling [Prof. Ravindran] Yes.

[Prof. Idichandy] and upto BE, Mechanical Engineering [Prof. Ravindran] Yes.

[Prof. Idichandy] in PSG. [Prof. Ravindran] Yes.

[Prof. Idichandy] Briefly you can touch upon -

[Prof. Idichandy] it is more a biographical thing. [Prof. Ravindran] Yes.

[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah. [Prof. Ravindran] I came from a very small family

and my father was an accountant.

I studied in a school which was totally free in Virudhunagar

and I studied the pre-university also in a college

which is, you know, this thing.

And I had good academic record.

But ... my father was [inaudible] and he was sick that time,

and then he said "Okay, if you want to study Engineering

you put only one application,

[Prof. V. G. Idichandy laughs] if you get one admission at that time, you know,

go, otherwise we'll do some work here".

So, I applied and I got admission to B.Tech.

That's how I started my career.

Then, there also I involved myself

in learning the subject much better

and did lot of hands-on work

even for the final year B.Tech., BE I mean,

we did - some of our friends together,

we designed a working windmill

at that time, developing 300 watts

and put in the top of our Administrative Building

B.Tech which was working actually.

So, that was first happiness -

we said "We could design a machine".

[Prof. Idichandy] This is sometime in 1966. [Prof. Ravindran]'66.

[Prof. Idichandy] '66. [Prof. Ravindran] So,

[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah. [Prof. Ravindran] that was 66.

[Prof. Ravindran] So, that was long time ago- [Prof. Idichandy] So, before

[Prof. Ravindran] we fabricated. [Prof. Idichandy] windmills were not even

[Prof. Ravindran] known, yeah. [Prof. Idichandy] known at that time.

[Prof. Ravindran] Yeah. [Prof. Idichandy] Yeah, ok.

[Prof. Ravindran] Actually - [Prof. Idichandy] What was the motivation to do..

Actually, it was a funded project by CSIR,

one of the faculty has taken it and he left.

So, the institute was under constraint to complete the project

and the professor requested me

whether we could take it up and complete.

And that was one of the thing;

and it went as a report to CSIR for completion -

we were very proud of that.

[Prof. Idichandy] And ... for example, the blade. [Prof. Ravindran] Yes.

[Prof. Idichandy] You know, probably there were no design,

[inaudible] at that time. [Prof. Ravindran] Yes, yes, yes.

[Prof. Idichandy] How did you - how did you - [Prof. Ravindran] Actually.

[Prof. Idichandy] designed? [Prof. Ravindran] That's why, you know, I was basically - somehow ...

I had an inbuilt interest on turbomachinery.

So, when this request came ... there was a Russian book

and I requested one of the professors, Prof. Kandaswamy.

I said, "Please translate that

because there were no other books to

[Prof. Idichandy] Oh my god. [Prof. Ravindran] design the windmill. So, Russians had a book.

I forgot the name of it, but he translated and then

and there was one more book Putna, I remember that.

So, we designed, and I told, we incorporate a new device

because the - there was a previous model

made by that faculty who left.

[Prof. Ravindran] The base flew off when there were strong winds. [Prof. Idichandy] Oh my god.

[Prof. Ravindran] So, I was thinking you know

somehow we should have a speed limiting device.

[Prof. Ravindran] Something which is automatic. [Prof. Idichandy] Ok.

We thought about that and what we did was you know

we arranged the blades with the, yeah, bearing,

a sleeve bearing at the root, in the hub.

[Prof. Ravindran] So, due to the centrifugal force the blades will be moving

[Prof. Idichandy] Yes. [Prof. Ravindran] at a particular offset radially outwards.

At that time, the blades will have a pin in their axis

and the pin will be guided by a helical screw guide.

So that, as it moves out it will turn the pitch.

[Prof. Idichandy] Oh. [Prof. Ravindran] So, the automatically the angle of attack comes down.

So, the torque at high speeds automatically became less.

So, it was a self-regulating speed control.

[Prof. Idichandy] Technology is even today it is the same probably. [Prof. Ravindran] Similar, similar, yes.

[Prof. Ravindran] It is almost may be. [Prof. Idichandy] Yeah, now they have complicated the

[Prof. Ravindran] vane adjusting mechanisms, it's very expensive.

But on a small blade - machine like 300 watts.

We could afford it

nobody could provide such a complicated mechanism

of vane adjusting mechanism

which is similar to our turbine blades, no?

[Prof. Idichandy] Ok. [Prof. Ravindran] So, with this one itself, you know, it was spring-loaded.

See, it only works when the - the centrifugal force is too high

then they get back to the normals mode,

when the speeds are normal. So, that's what it is.

[Prof. Idichandy] So, it is really automatic. [Prof. Ravindran] Automatic, self-regulating.

[Prof. Idichandy] Ok. What about the generator?

[Prof. Ravindran] Generator we just bought... [Prof. Idichandy] Conversion and -

[Prof. Ravindran] locally - a car dynamometer, DC dynamometer: 300 watts. [Prof. Idichandy] Ok.

[Prof. Ravindran] So, it was a DC,

and it was a simply a

just a demonstration project that we could design

for a given wind speed.

[Prof. Ravindran] So there were some. [Prof. Idichandy] So, it like in similar projects you know

[Prof. Idichandy] you must have connected it to -

[Prof. Ravindran] Lamp load, yes. [Prof. Idichandy] Lamp load, and ...

[Prof. Ravindran] Lamp load. [Prof. Idichandy] And what was your feeling when the - the - the -

[Prof. Ravindran] It was very nice

and all the more happiness we got was our batch,

our group - 3 of us were given the Best Project Award

[Prof. Idichandy] Award. [Prof. Ravindran] by the faculty and we were taken

It was very nice. Professor

and Professor Subramanian, who was later Vice Chancellor of Bharathiar University.

He was my guide.

So, it was a nice feeling that something we have made works.

[Prof. Idichandy] Ok and - [Prof. Ravindran] Works for a long time. It is not that it will run for 2 days and stops.

So, that was a good feeling.

So, that's why when I came to IIT

when the Head of the Department

asked me which lab you want to go,

I said I want to go to Turbomachines Lab.

[Prof. Idichandy] Ok. We will come to that. [Prof. Ravindran] Yeah.

[Prof. Idichandy] But do you still continue your contacts with PSG, I mean some...

[Prof. Ravindran] Yeah, very little, but we have contact

but we have the Alumni Association,

but I am not continuing the technical contact.

So, I was continuing till about 5 years ago

because I was also the Naval Research

Board Chairman [inaudible]

and I was part of the RUTAG of IIT Madras.

So, in these connections, we were going for discussions

with them to do projects for us.

[Prof. Idichandy] Ok. [Prof. Ravindran] And, but they were a bit slow on that.

[Prof. Ravindran] So, they were not coming forward [Prof. Idichandy] Ok.

because they were always busy.

So, we lost interest in them basically, because the PhD people...

[Prof. Idichandy] I think, probably they have their own priorities. [Prof. Ravindran] Priorities, yes.

Because they were mainly concentrating on Undergraduate B.Tech.

[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah. [Prof. Ravindran] And the Mechanical Department was very good,

but they were not very keen on

[Prof. Ravindran] doing sponsored research funding. [Prof. Idichandy] Research funding.

Probably, they wanted to come out

[Prof. Idichandy] with larger number of graduates than... [Prof. Ravindran] Yes.

They are expanding that they have built one more institution,

they are on a - this thing,

expansion mode at the B.Tech. level, maybe little bit of M.Tech.,

but we have this alumni meetings for the last 51 years.

[Prof. Idichandy] Yes, yes. Every year. [Prof. Ravindran] It's still going on - every year.

[Prof. Idichandy] there we have and it is held only in the college itself. [Prof. Ravindran] No, not college.

[Prof. Idichandy] Oh, I see, different places. [Prof. Ravindran] We meet outside; except the 50th anniversary.

And the Silver Jubilee 25th anniversary,

all the other meetings are ... it's a family get-together

[Prof. Idichandy] Ok. [Prof. Ravindran] of classmates, it is nothing technical.

[Prof. Idichandy] Ok. [Prof. Ravindran] We meet, spend 2-3 days together,

and we are planning for a foreign trip this year,

next year - early next year - to Thailand.

[Prof. Idichandy] Oh, I see, ok. [Prof. Ravindran] 70 people are with me, 60 to 62 people, yes.

[Prof. Idichandy] Ok. Do you remember some of your very close friends

who have reached, you know, some stage

wherein you know, who have done very well - in - in - in - in -

[Prof. Ravindran] My BE? [Prof. Idichandy] contributing back ... your - your own batch.

Yes, yeah. There are many of them.

Some of the people were in BHEL Trichy,

they came out and started firms - consultancy firms,

engineering firms like Fishner and the - N. Chandrasekaran.

I think he became a big industrialist.

And in Coimbatore itself there is one Balasundaram,

who was in Electrical branch

and he is with that KG group and then

he is in charge of this Trigger Jeans company.

And he himself runs a stock broking.

[Prof. Ravindran] He has become a financial management man. [Prof. Idichandy] Ok.

And my own namesake, my roommate [inaudible]

they put people as per the alphabetical order.

So, I have another classmate named Ravindran

from a - that too, Mettupalayam - he is a industrialist.

He is making this, you know, paper - newspaper

actually he got in Madras, Andhra,

he a very successful man.

We have some people

employed in industries also: one Ranganathan,

who was given a President's Award,

he was a BAL Chief Executive, my own classmate in Bangalore.

[Prof. Idichandy] Ok, so - [Prof. Ravindran] Like that.

[Prof. Idichandy] That was perhaps, you know, after the graduation

probably you are always inclined to go for higher studies.

[Prof. Ravindran] Yes, that was my interest, actually. [Prof. Idichandy] Yeah.

because somehow you know when I started applying for...

when I started - about Engineering education

I came to know about -

I heard that IIT Madras has started, so I wanted to apply.

Sometime in February, March I was thinking,

then they said oh you fellow, you're

[Prof. Ravindran] too late. I never knew that we have to write an entrance exam. [Prof. Idichandy] Oh, time was over.

So, at that time itself I was thinking,

so IIT is something different, we should go.

But ... middle of my graduation

there was some compulsion from my family

that I should go for work.

So, when I saw this advertisement

for Technical Teacher Training Programme which was

Central Government's Programme, Ministry of Education,

to select candidates for, yeah, teaching career,

at that time itself, when there were

so few engineering colleges, they thought of

developing good faculty for engineering colleges.

So, they started this programme for providing Master’s degree

[Prof. Ravindran] as well as giving them training in teaching [Prof. Idichandy] Teaching.

in standard institution like IIT Madras and Anna University.

So, I applied for it. I was very really lucky to get selected.

So, we got almost double the scholarship compared to our M.Tech.

[Prof. Idichandy] Ok. [Prof. Ravindran] And we were also given an opportunity

to work in institution like IIT, work with German professors.

I think that was the greatest opportunity in my life, I thought.

My interest -so, I am just doing M.Tech., but this opportunity

to work with German professor - even short period,

I think that was a very great experience I could have.

[Prof. Idichandy] What was the year when you came to IIT Madras? [Prof. Ravindran] 1966.

[Prof. Idichandy] '66. [Prof. Ravindran] Immediately after graduation, I worked for 1 month

in a local Karaikudi Engineering College,

I left that, and I joined here - and that professor - that time he was

Professor Vijay Ram, who was later Guindy

[Prof. Idichandy] Oh, ok. [Prof. Ravindran] Principal, he said, "You should go to IIT".

He said, "You don't have to work in Karaikudi,

you please go to IIT.

So, he relieved me and then he said you go, so...

At that time, IIT was a great ambition in life

[Prof. Ravindran] you know 'we should get into IIT'. [Prof. Idichandy] Yes.

And then get M.Tech.

So, that was, so immediately came and joined here, '66.

[Prof. Idichandy] Ok. [Prof. Ravindran] August exactly.

[Prof. Idichandy] And ... probably, you know, you thought -

I - I - don't know whether you were always having an inclination

to work in the faculty of IIT

because after this 3 years of technical teacher-training

[Prof. Idichandy] you will be allotted some college by the [Prof. Ravindran] Yes.

[Prof. Idichandy] Government and- [Prof. Ravindran] Yes, yes.

But ... still you had interest in continuing in IIT in the faculty.

[Prof. Ravindran] It was like this. You see, the ... one of the conditions of the

selection for the Teacher Training Programme was that

we should serve at least 3 years in any engineering college

[Prof. Idichandy] Anywhere. [Prof. Ravindran] decided by the Ministry anywhere in India.

So, we had accepted that.

So, I had accepted the condition.

But I had a very lucky break, I should tell you now itself

because I don't know how many people had this opportunity.

During these 3 years, you know,

I was given ... very very tough task of

erecting certain test rig, very complicated test rigs;

fabrication, erection, testing by the German professor.

[Prof. Idichandy] This is in addition to your [Prof. Ravindran] To the

[Prof. Idichandy] course work. [Prof. Ravindran] yes yes, course work.

He said, "Your course work is your own personal benefit"

because that was - he was a very tough -

that's why not many people

[Prof. Ravindran] wanted to work under this Professor Scheer. [Prof. Idichandy] And [inaudible]

[Prof. Ravindran] I have great respect for him. [Prof. Idichandy] ... has a German attitude.

German. And he said, you know,

at that time there were many German professors

in IIT Madras - in Mechanical and Civil there were.

But what they did was

they brought equipments and erected them.

So, they could develop the laboratories fast.

Well, this Professor Scheer said "No, I want you guys

to design, fabricate, and erect and operate."

So, this was a very slow, painful process.

And it was very tough;

not many people wanted to do this - faculty.

So, the initial faculty ran away from him.

So, let’s say when I told you other day that

when Head of the Department

asked me where do you want to go,

I say I want to do Turbomachinery.

He said "Don't come and cry to me

that I ruined your career."

I said, "What is wrong with Turbomachines Lab?"

Later only, I knew that because of his very tough attitude

that doing work is only thing,

he will never give leave,

you have to do all the drawings yourself,

you go to the central workshop, get them fabricated,

erect, everything we had to do

like a very factory-level

which many of the initial faculty didn’t want.

[Prof. Idichandy] And most of it were done by you, alone? [Prof. Ravindran] No, there was a -

[Prof. Idichandy] Probably technical help. [Prof. Ravindran] That - that was the advantage, you know

the German design was that each laboratory -

we had at that time 10 laboratories in Mechanical Engineering -

had its own full quota of technical staff and equipment

[Prof. Ravindran] like lathe, milling machine, shaping machine. [Prof. Idichandy] Yeah yeah.

Small milling machine for tool making, this one;

drill - huge drilling, radar drilling machines.

So, we were well-equipped

to do the fabrication within ourself.

Whatever could not be done could be done in central workshop.

[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah. [Prof. Ravindran] So, most of the equipment like all the welding equipment

gas welding, arc welding, everything was provided to us

and this professor will come and supervise that

we are doing it correctly.

So, that is the best training period I ever had.

Then he will say, "I am going to teach Turbomachines.

All you guys come and attend."

So, me, along with Professor Venkatrayulu

who was at that time my batchmate,

we used to carry all the equipment

of turbomachinery models, you know,

to the class and he will explain,

I one of the best teacher in practical things.

So, compared to what I learnt in undergraduate,

I learnt more attending his lecture in IIT

by Professor Scheer on Turbomachines: on theory,

design, fabrication, and performance test.

Complete, it was a total course.

[Prof. Idichandy] Which - which university in Germany he was associated?

He was associated with Braunschweig.

[Prof. Idichandy] Braunschweig. [Prof. Ravindran] Technical University of Braunschweig.

And he was - he was - he was a war veteran,

then he has completed his Ph.D.

and when he came here none of [inaudible] were available,

so he was teaching Drawing.

He was also designated as Professor of Drawing.

So, he used to be a very meticulous instructor for drawing.

So, he will say: everything should have a drawing,

even if you make a chalk piece holder,

there should be a drawing.

So, he designed a system of designation of drawings,

numbering of drawings, storing them and assembling them - he got,

get - got his equipment to keep drawings properly.

All those things are still available after almost 50 years.

[Prof. Idichandy] Ok. [Prof. Ravindran] You can even [inaudible].

So, that this way, he taught us meticulously.

I was in charge some of the keys, you know,

every key in the laboratory,

every table key, every door key, every cupboard key

will have a duplicate, it will be in a central key board.

I was a key manager in that - key-in-charge,

like that, you know.

About everything, there was perfect discipline,

he taught us, yes.

[Prof. Idichandy] No wonder that you transfered many of these things, you know.

[Prof. Ravindran] So, that is the best part of my learning

in my life, was that 3 years

I went to Professor Scheer.

[Prof. Idichandy] Now, with Turbomachines Laboratory which you have completed

[Prof. Idichandy] your Master's in 3 years. [Prof. Ravindran] Yes. Yes.

Before I come to a very pertinent question which is

about the situation of laboratories

in - in - in IIT Madras in the present.

Was there any offer from the Government of India

for to you to go to some college after completion of it?

[Prof. Ravindran] That is - I was just -

I was about to say that, you know,

after I submitted my Ph.D. thesis with the

fabrication of test rig for the axial flow welding machine,

then I took an extra project title

of studying the inlet flow region of axial pumps.

So, that was also experimental, theoretical.

So, when I put all this work together -

in the 3 years of work, together -

it became so thick

and I presented the entire result to the committee,

Professor Thirunarayanan was the examiner,

[Prof. Ravindran] Head of the Department of IAC. [Prof. Idichandy] Ok.

In Mechanical Engineering - was the exam,

that - that - that was the level

[Prof. Ravindran] at which M.Tech. exams were held at that time. [Prof. Idichandy] Ok.

[Prof. Ravindran] Even though I - I don’t think we get those people in for [Prof. Idichandy] No, no.

[Prof. Ravindran] Ph.D.s now. He came and asked

"What, Ravindran, after all you are going to be -

after all you are going to be a teacher,

why have you done so much of work -

design, fabrication, experiments, making probes, calibrating them."

Then, I told - at that time, I had the offer from Calicut University

[Prof. Ravindran] to go, I had the offer. [Prof. Idichandy] Ok.

[Prof. Ravindran] I told him, "Sir,

any teacher should have the capability and confidence

to design machines, fabricate them, erect them,

and make them work successfully

for the design specification as made.

I have done this. I have this confidence

so wherever I go, I will be a good teacher

because I can teach the students how to

design, fabricate, commission, with all practical knowledge.

So, wherever I will go I will be a good teacher," I told him.

Then, the Head of the Department was present:

Narayan, he was Head of the YOC.

[Prof. Idichandy] Oh, board. [Prof. Ravindran] Board.

He said "He need not go anywhere,

myself and Venkatrayulu, my batchmate,

they can join us as faculty tomorrow."

Just like that. On the viva examination day,

he said they can join on ad hoc basis

[Prof. Ravindran] and which was at the time - Dr. Ramachandra was the director. [Prof. Idichandy] Ok.

He got us [inaudible] as a faculty few months later.

That's how I entered as a faculty, my transition from

teacher trainee to faculty happened in

'69 August - September - on the viva day.

I don’t think many people would have had this lucky chance

[Prof. Ravindran] to become a - [Prof. Idichandy] No, I do not think there will be any comparison account anywhere anytime, later also.

Because to get into this, you know,

[Prof. Ravindran] you have to go through so much of process. [Prof. Idichandy] Yeah.

[Prof. Ravindran] Whereas, just like that we got into IIT. [Prof. Idichandy] Ok.

[Prof. Idichandy] Now, you are a person who has been down to earth. [Prof. Ravindran] Yes.

So, you know working in the laboratory,

designing your own stuff,

getting it fabricated, I mean, totally hands-on.

What do you think about the present engineers?

I am not asking about IITs at all.

If you go to a typical engineering college

wherein, you know, graduates are produced,

do you think they get - they are lucky to get into

[Prof. Idichandy] you know, such type of an education? [Prof. Ravindran] No, not, except in few institution.

[Prof. Ravindran] Bulk of the present engineering students

do not get this opportunity.

One of the reason being, in the last decade has been that

the IT companies came and selected them,

and gave them some jobs

totally unconnected with what they study.

So, slowly the students lost interest in hands-on work.

The faculty also thought it was unnecessary to train them

[Prof. Ravindran] because anyway they get a job. [Prof. Idichandy] Correct.

[Prof. Idichandy] And that has nothing to do with what they learn. [Prof. Ravindran] Yes.

[Prof. Ravindran] So, sometime the offers came in the 3rd year itself,

so 4th year they never learned anything.

So, now, that's why some of the ...

the government rule has come that

you should come for campus only in the 4th year.

I think this is a very negative aspect

because, what for we train engineers,

they should have a problem-solving capability

for their own interest is around them,

[Prof. Ravindran] you can also do R and D. [Prof. Idichandy] Yes.

Excellence, then you publish, take patents,

that's one way of going up in your career.

But otherwise you are supposed to transfer your capability

to problem-solving practical industries,

[Prof. Ravindran] develop something what society needs. [Prof. Idichandy] Yeah.

[Prof. Idichandy] Can somebody design a machine?

So, that capability is totally missing.

So, many people ask me to come and teach,

I say I don’t want.

But one of the college now I am going I am stressing this,

I making them do hands-on work,

you know, all the few institution

where I am just mentoring. I am stressing,

but 85 percent of the students

who are getting undergraduate degrees,

they don't get this hands-on experience at all.

[Prof. Idichandy] Unfortunately, teachers are also not

very - very much inclined to take that type of offer.

[Prof. Ravindran] Because they have never seen an industry. [Prof. Idichandy] Yes.

[Prof. Ravindran] I can give you one disastrous situation.

I will not tell the institution.

I was talking to a faculty

who was a student of the same college.

It seem one student asked: "Sir" - Electrical student -

"Sir, I have not seen a induction motor".

This faculty, he said, I myself has not seen one".

[Prof. Ravindran] You - this is the status of the faculty. [Prof. Idichandy] Yeah.

[Prof. Ravindran] What good is the degree of the

undergraduate student studying under him?

So, I think it's very very important that

we should come back to this hands-on experience

by making it compulsory for the institutions

to work with industries

[Prof. Ravindran] and for students to work with industrial problems. [Prof. Idichandy] Yeah.

[Prof. Ravindran] That is my - that is the sad part of the Engineering education today.

[Prof. Idichandy] Don't you think that to some extent that has also

come into the IIT system, you know wherein probably

[Prof. Idichandy] they are little better off than the normal in various - [Prof. Ravindran] Yeah.

[Prof. Ravindran] My own experience - see, because

that was very clearly expressed by the ...

some of the visiting professor who came for the

50th anniversary of the Indo-German collaboration.

Some of - Professor Scheer himself was there,

his assistants were all there,

but some of the remarks were very very painful to hear.

Saying that the facility which they have created in the

late '60s, early '70s, were all

coming down in its quality and effectiveness,

and IIT Madras never took an initiative to upgrade them.

[Prof. Idichandy] Ok. [Prof. Ravindran] Especially, Professor Lutz was

almost crying. You see, his boilers and steam turbines

[Prof. Ravindran] have disappeared. [Prof. Idichandy] Yes.

And our own lab, even though some physicists are working

the original he brought, some turbines product,

they were all corroded and - this thing - they were not replaced.

So, and the - the - the - workshop manpower not there.

So, the students were very reluctant to take up

Master's and Ph.D. programmes in such labs.

[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah. [Prof. Ravindran] I think that has killed the initiative on

hands-on experience for the people

plus we did so much of work: we used to work in the lathe,

and the milling machine ourselves to manufacture, weld ourselves,

we had training in welding because number of pipelines were,

14 is pipeline, we used to weld for the test rigs.

So, that type of experience our students are not being given

by default, you know, because we don't have the manpower.

So, people are staying away, okay, if we go for equipment work,

I have to get all the things in -

fabricated outside, it is time consuming, it is expensive,

easy way to sit before the computer to do some modeling.

Easily you can publish papers, you can get your M.Tech. or Ph.D.,

that seems to be the trend nowadays.

[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah. [Prof. Ravindran] Even in IITs.

I am not very happy with that because that may be good for

getting our admissions abroad and

going thing but that is not expected

for engineer to contribute to the local industries.

I am very - very very particular about that

that IIT is not contributing enough

to the hands-on experience of students.

Even the number of those days we used to have

[Prof. Ravindran] workshop week completely. [Prof. Idichandy] Yeah.

Whole week they used to work in all the lab,

Workshops at Central Workshop,

Carpentry, Smithy, Machine Tools lab, Welding lab.

[Prof. Ravindran] Nowadays, that workshop also is reduced. [Prof. Idichandy] Yeah.

And one of the contributing factors is

that the 5-year programme came - became 4-year programme.

They expect lot of work to go into the plus 2.

[Prof. Idichandy] Yes. [Prof. Ravindran] But that didn’t happen.

We lost something in this process.

Engineering education lost some

very precious time in educating them and

this is because we lost 1 year of the instruction period.

[Prof. Idichandy] Ok. But coming to the students' point of view

because once, one of my

friend's son who joined Computer Science here,

he asked me: "Why should I do Workshop because in my lifetime

I will never even look at any of these machines

because it is not necessary."

And slowly from Computer Science the same question

is being asked even by Mechanical Engineers

you know: "Why should I do Workshop,

why should I dirty my hand

when I can get, you know, complete my courses

and also complete my project without -

[Prof. Ravindran] Yes. [Prof. Idichandy] -dirtying my hands and all."

That is looking ... very narrow approach to life.

You see, you can be a Computer Science Engineer

be a Computer Science man all the time,

look at servicing of computers

or develop computer language, hardware, software all that;

that means, your part of life is restricted

to a very small group of experts.

But in a field like Mechanical Engineering,

you can do computer simulations, test analysis,

software pactice all that you can - be -

do with only with computer knowledge.

[Prof. Ravindran] But finally, who will make - hardware?

[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah. [Prof. Ravindran] Somebody has to produce things,

things around us - who is manufacturing them,

who designs the machines to manufacture them,

who - machines the - who manufactures the tools

dyes, tool bits, to machine this,

material development, machining process,

finishing process - who does that?

He has to be a practical engineer.

Who developed that - interface is - totally, that's why

we are not making any new machines in our country.

[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah. [Prof. Ravindran] We buy and use them.

[Prof. Idichandy] Yes. [Prof. Ravindran] Are we making new machines?

Are we designing new machines?

Are we developing new technologies?

Are we taking new patents which are possible to be made

for our own industry? That is our weakness,

unless we improve upon this

physical hands-on experience for our own engineers,

we are going to be always a

second generation of machine users.

So, to make our Make in India

successful you think that the entire

engineering education has to be revamped.

Definitely. See, nowadays Make in India is import technology,

[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah. [Prof. Ravindran] use the factory - you are using our

cheap labour - that is not Make in India.

Make in India is really that you design,

make our R and D laboratories,

technology laboratories - you - to make mistakes and design,

give them time, and a chance to make mistakes and learn

hands-on experience, develop their own machines,

support them. Where do we support them -to make?

[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah, unfortunately that is the situation.

[Prof. Ravindran] Unfortunately, in Defence also,

the same thing is happened.

I have seen in Defence Laboratory,

you have seen in Defence Laboratories.

Lot of work is done, but they will never buy the final product.

There are some Western interest, difficulties,

maybe some of them are not reliable,

materials are not the best, but

we should give them a chance to improve.

In many case like space,

we have proven that we can do wonders.

[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah. [Prof. Ravindran] Why the same chance is not being

given to other industries?

The support that ISRO enjoys today

or Atomic Energy enjoys today,

Science and Technology Bombay is not enjoying.

Human Resource Department is not enjoying

that is why our education system is suffering.

Science and technology is suffering.

Technology development is suffering.

Because our education systems also fall into that trap

that we make people more computer-based,

not hardware-based at all, thanks for the [inaudible].

[Prof. Idichandy] See, unfortunately the - the - ultimately what happens is

even the faculty who are joining,

many of them do not have - any - any hands-on experience at all.

Yes. Similar thing will happen, I told you

one faculty said in one of the - "I have not seen induction machine".

Same thing will happen to some of these people.

High-tech Computer Science engineers or high-tech

Chemical engineer, he may - he may not see a

lathe or this thing, he may not be able to do any work.

So - that should not - we should not allow this

degradation of the practical knowledge to happen

in our hands-on experience

Yeah, let us hope that I mean your -

this voice will reach some stage wherein, you know, there will be some -

[Prof. Ravindran] That is my sadness here, that - [Prof. Idichandy] Like many [inaudible]...

[Prof. Ravindran] Because I started my career

with so much of this thing and all

I see before my eyes, yeah, change of trend.

Many people thinking that we don’t have to do this.

The younger generation thinks that

hands-on experience is not required,

that is my saddest feeling as a engineer,

as a Mechanical Engineer, or Ocean Engineer.

[Prof. Idichandy] Shall we stop for some time or -

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] We - we cannot, sir. [Ms. Mamata Dash] 10 minutes,

[Ms. Mamata Dash] another 10 minutes. [Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] We have another 10 minutes

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] which we can use. [Prof. Idichandy] 10 minutes.

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] Yes. Ok

[Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam] before we need to stop.

[Prof. Idichandy] Now, I can understand your, you know, hard feeling

because you have done so much to the laboratory,

it has been brought to a certain stage,

have you visited the laboratory again -

not before - or after that 50th Golden Jubilee here?

I have been visiting especially, Ocean Centre I have visited,

but Turbomachines Laboratory

I think once or twice I have gone.

But things are not very

very well because the number of faculty.

[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah. [Prof. Ravindran] See, for example,

I am attached to the Turbomachines Laboratory

because no institution or country

is teaching the turbomachines similar to what

the German system has introduced here.

Pumps, turbines, steam turbines or gas turbines,

they all are taught in a unified theory

and special fluid related properties are solved separately.

So, we have two groups of turbomachines.

And the knowledge those days

we used to have Turbo Machine lectures for 2 years

in the 5 year stream. So, a person could

without any knowledge of pumps or turbines earlier

could design the turbine, fabricate.

So, all of M.Tech. students those days

do a fabrication of a pump or a turbine and do the testing,

that was our standard at that time.

[Prof. Idichandy] Ok. [Prof. Ravindran] That - that means, when they could

[inaudible] what does industry need

the R and D department, we

develop engineers for R and D department.

So, we want him to be capable of designing a new system

or modify the existing impeller to a new application,

modify the materials to a new fluid being handled,

a slurry pump or a turbine.

So, even the faculty: Professor Prithviraj or

everybody was able to design hands-on things.

I think that - what is - is - helping

the development of new machines, new ideas

can be transformed into new hardware;

if you have that practical knowledge of doing that,

but if you are sitting before a computer

only, that becomes very difficult.

Because I - I - I forgot to tell you also that turbine

the research, obviously, I did it on a reversible pump turbine,

actual turbine - developing about 50 kilowatts of power

the entire rotors were machined by me right from scratch

from a bronze metal. I cast the material [inaudible]

Deckel Milling machine because they didn’t have labour

I worked in the [inaudible] I brought in my personal suitcase all these

machine components and assembled here and tested it.

I tested for 9 months, day and night.

My thesis will be ... external work is so much;

all the associated message systems calibrating them.

Nowadays, these people do not know what is an error analysis,

what is fabrication of a probe, 3-dimensional probe or

how do you measure the flow field in a

impeller - nobody knows. They can do maybe a

computer simulation, but how do you validate your -

[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah. [Prof. Ravindran] Computational Fluid Mechanics.

[Prof. Idichandy] That is something missing in our [Prof. Ravindran] That is something...is very

[Prof. Ravindran] much missing in our present training programme. [Prof. Idichandy] Ok.

Immediately, after you know, the initial stages I think

you had an opportunity to go - go to Germany

[Prof. Idichandy] on a - under a DAAD scholarship. [Prof. Ravindran] Yes.

Yeah, that was immediately after joining in 1971

after I finished my M.Tech.

there was an opportunity: I applied for a scholarship

to the Government of India, at that time there was a

all India quota and IIT Madras enjoyed a -

[Prof. Idichandy] Special [Prof. Ravindran] private quota, but I was too junior.

So, I could not get that.

So, I applied - I was lucky to get that lucky break I had.

So, I went along with senior people of my faculty

who were my teachers,

I went with them to Germany for training

and worked in a laboratory. There also, I had an opportunity

where the professor said we should teach - learn -

speak to me only in German language,

learn the language very nicely and do the work here.

You start an all these lectures in German language.

So, that also and they gave me total freedom

to develop the - even though I didn’t know

how computer program at that time.

Those days IBM 370 was the only computer

in IIT Madras and the telephone equivalent was there.

We used to have 2000 cards for the code.

So, all that was learned by me, newly in Germany

they supported me and when I wanted

to fabricate the turbine, they said, ok, I approached a private

company called Deckel Mill, actually we have lot of

copy milling machines from them.

When it was - I'm from IIT Madras, I would like to go, he said

we don’t have people, but you are welcome to

[Prof. Ravindran] come and use our machines. [Prof. Idichandy] I see.

I worked there, machined myself, 4 months, like maybe about

26-27 different types of blades, assembled them.

[Prof. Idichandy] It is not a copying - [Prof. Ravindran] Copying only, means

[Prof. Ravindran] but different types you know. [Prof. Idichandy] Ok.

13 blades of guide blades, axial for guide blades

and then 3 different rotors with 3 different profiles.

Each rotor having 6 blades.

I have to make them. So, cast them,

then copy mill them, finish them, check their profile,

if necessary, modify it.

I brought them, ok, assembled them;

[Prof. Ravindran] random at 2000 rpm which is not that you know. [Prof. Idichandy] Yeah.

[Prof. Ravindran] It is a real pump, real turbine what kind of pump

and turbine it was a machine for tidal performance.

So, associated planning of the

performance: how is the flow

distribution, 3-dimensional flow,

3-dimensional components of velocity

static pressure, dynamic pressures,

flow rates, completely measured,

then mechanical power, speed, torque, accurately.

So, that was the work - that was the...

[Prof. Idichandy] How long you were there in Germany?

[Prof. Ravindran] Nearly 2 and half years I was there.

[Prof. Idichandy] That was [Prof. Ravindran] Apart from language course;

[Prof. Ravindran] no, including language course. [Prof. Idichandy] Including language,

[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah. It was completely in a Technische University

[Prof. Idichandy] that [Prof. Ravindran] Munich, Munich, it was in the Munich.

And it was totally, it was a very nice experience

because there I could really see

the total advancement of

technology, experimental technology;

to measure things in a rotating machine,

that is measure the flow velocities static pressures.

On the rotor blade, transfer them through the slip rings

physically and then take the signal out and

it's ready for our interface, those days.

And even the 3-dimensional velocity probes

where you have the radial common velocity

[Prof. Ravindran] in water had minute as you know the cool it once. [Prof. Idichandy] Yeah.

6 of them in a 5 millimetre base

such was the quality of manufacture.

So, that was - that was real learning.

And since I could speak German language fluently,

I could talk to them and learn lot of this

very nicely because there I had my family with me - wife,

[Prof. Ravindran] son, so, we enjoyed ourselves. [Prof. Idichandy] I am surprised you know, how can -

[Prof. Idichandy] you said you got in Deckel, no.

[Prof. Ravindran] Deckel Milling Machine, yes.

How is that, you know, the...totally, you know, a strange

person from a very strange country

they just leave the equipment to you to

[Prof. Idichandy] you know fabricate whatever you want. [Prof. Ravindran] Yes.

That - that - that is what you know, the

universities had such a big respect from industries

[Prof. Ravindran] so, when somebody from a [Prof. Idichandy] Sure.

institute wants to come and work for their research,

they offer the facilities.

They like to involve with work.

[Prof. Idichandy] Ok. [Prof. Ravindran] With industries, you know.

I had a person from

who make automatic gears - car,

he is a CEO of the company.

So, when the university requested him to

come and take lectures on Hydraulic Systems

because it was the Hydraulic Torque Converters no,

he left half the job and then he said

1 hour per week only he will be take class,

but he said, I should be called only professor.

So, they have such a major

[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah. [Prof. Ravindran] respect for university systems.

And he used to take all the students to his company,

take them around give them good gifts

of tool kits, I still have those [inaudible] which is

[Prof. Ravindran] 55 years old. [Prof. Idichandy] Ok.

So, that was the respect of the

university by the industrial people.

So, you were in Munich two and half years

and you know Munich is most famous for its beer.

[Prof. Ravindran] Yes. [Prof. Idichandy] And the Oktoberfest.

[Prof. Ravindran] Yes. [Prof. Idichandy] I still wonder

how you have not even tasted beer.

[Prof. Ravindran] Yeah. At that time,

yeah, the problem was that, you know, that German beer

is the purest beer in the world. [Prof. Idichandy] Yeah

[Prof. Ravindran] By law they have prevented any

[Prof. Ravindran] flavors being added. [Prof. Idichandy] Added.

[Prof. Ravindran] So, so the German beer is very bitter.

I never loved the taste for German beer. [Prof. Idichandy] Ok.

to Oktoberfest where they drink from

11 o’clock in the morning to 11 o’clock in the night,

it is fun. People drink, eat, drink and then play music.

[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah. [Prof. Ravindran] It’s called the Oktoberfest music.

[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah. [Prof. Ravindran] All trumpets only.

So, in a tent there are about 30,000 people

sitting and eating and drinking and dancing.

[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah. [Prof. Ravindran] Great fun

but beer itself we never had a taste,

[Prof. Ravindran] but that beer is really bitter. German beer is [Prof. Idichandy] Ok.

[Prof. Ravindran] really bitter. [Prof. Idichandy] And they always consume

[Prof. Idichandy] the beer in 1 litre. [Prof. Ravindran] 1 litre.

[Prof. Ravindran] They don't sell anything less than 1 litre these - Oktoberfest time.

[Prof. Idichandy] Ok. Yeah. After your

very successful teaching, research, as well as

doing your - completing your Ph.D., everything,

after completing in the Turbomachines Laboratory, you joined

or shall I say you were forced to join Ocean Engineering Department.

No, not that way, but something

really happened, you know, at that time

the Director was Professor P. V. Indiresan. Indiresan.

And the Head of the Laboratory was Professor Raju.

So, Professor Indiresan is one person who wanted

the different faculty from different departments to work

together and take up major projects for

industries as interdisciplinary projects.

So, you will give me a thrust.

In this process, he formed a number of interdisciplinary

[Prof. Idichandy] Research groups. [Prof. Ravindran] research groups from [inaudible] faculty from

Electrical, Mechanical, Civil, Computer Science etcetera;

when they were taking up lot of projects, industrial projects

like the micro project in Shivaganga and all that.

So, they were doing that and at that time

there was a special interest on

renewable energy from the oceans

and Professor Indiresan felt that if at all anybody

could do the work on ocean energy,

it could be only IIT Madras Ocean Engineering Centre

and we should take initiative.

So, he took the interest to call for a

formation of a group of industry - faculty

to work on renewable energy sources from the ocean.

So, from the turbomachinery side, myself and Venkatrayulu were...

we volunteered to work

on the design of pumps and turbines, aspects of both

Ocean Thermal Energy and Wave Energy.

And there were people from

Ocean Engineering Centre like Professor Vendhan,

an instrumentation group like yourself and

Professor Bhattacharya, and Civil Engineering group

people maybe Professor Aravindan was

very - this thing - Electrical group,

Professor Laxmi Narayana. And Jagadeesh Kumar.

[Prof. Idichandy] Okay. [Prof. Ravindran] They were all ... involved.

So, we started working on very very preliminary

designs of Ocean Thermal Energies [inaudible] to start with.

And at that time, the Government of India started the

[Prof. Ravindran] new department of ocean development [Prof. Idichandy] Development.

[Prof. Ravindran] under the Ministry of Science and Technology.

Dr. Qasim, who went to Antarctica for the first

time taking the group from us, was made the secretary

and Professor Indiresan was always in touch with him.

And then Professor Indiresan

said that we are going to start this initiative

and Dr. Qasim said he will support that.

So, at that time the ministry of - or the department of

non-conventional energy source also was there

who had interest on Ocean Energy.

So, from these two departments of

Ocean - Ocean Development and

Ministry of Non-Conventional Energy Sources,

Professor Indiresan arranged some funding to be given

and formulated...created a cell called Ocean Energy Cell

[Prof. Ravindran] as a part of the Ocean Engineering [Prof. Idichandy] Centre.

[Prof. Ravindran] Centre of IIT Madras with industrial faculty.

So, at that time because we were

taking active part from Mechanical Engineering group on

pumps and turbines, aspects of both the

wave energy and this thing.

And he was also requesting us to develop the - or to

complete the wavemaker insulation,

[Prof. Ravindran] at that time which was bought from Germany and the installation was delayed. [Prof. Idichandy] Ok.

[Prof. Ravindran] As a person interested in turbomachinery,

especially there was a special

bi-directional airflow uni-directional turbine

called Wells turbine, which was of tremendous interest

for the Wave Energy Programme.

I wanted to work further on that.

So, we volunteered to commission that

wave energy, wavemaker in Ocean Engineering Centre.

So, first our job was - my job was to

commission as a faculty of Mechanical Engineering.

I offered support to commission that wavemaker

which was commissioned in about 6 months; we worked

day and night. Then, Professor Indiresan said, "Ravindran

now we know because there were no Mechanical Engineers

part of the faculty of Ocean Engineering at that time,

they were all only Civil Engineers,

structural engineers and instrumentation group headed by you.

So, there was no Mechanical Engineer there."

So, he said "We need you."

I was bit hesitating, saying that I had research students working in

Turbomachines Laboratory, then they said you could be a

adjunct faculty and all.

Then, when this funding came, specifically from both the ministries

to create a cell, he wanted somebody to head that

and he wanted me, I was bit reluctant, but he forced me to

apply - appear for it even though I didn’t apply.

So, I was given the opportunity to start this activity on

renewable energy from the oceans

and he could recruit more younger faculty, research staff

from other IITs also, from IIT Kharagpur, example

and then we started major activity

to study the different aspects of wave energy conversion,

the system which is practically useful for India,

for the type of wave climate we have in India.

The components of the system

where we select this system called Oscillating Water Column System,

there was work for optimizing the

hydrodynamic shape of that wave absorbing.

This converts the energy from the wave from the

waves to the air trapped in a chamber under [inaudible].

Then from the air to a mechanical shaft

through a turbine which is this bi-directional airflow turbine,

then a generator for it which will convert this mechanical energy

into air flow energy and pump power to the grid.

So, we had to design the total loop.

So, even though Professor Indiresan was a bit

in a hurry to do that we recommended that we have

3 research groups, independently,

to work on the hydrodynamic gas turbine energy

conversion of wave to water, air, hydrodynamic part of it.

Then, the mechanical turbomachine aspect of the

design of a special turbine

for pneumatic to mechanical conversion

and advice from electrical engineers to

select the right type of

machinery to convert cheap machinery to convert

mechanical to electrical engineering.

So, we had 3 different research topics given to Ph.D.

[Prof. Idichandy] Students. [Prof. Ravindran] students and we did a very good work

and based on that confidence,

then, we told Professor Indiresan we can go for a

field plant and we selected a site

at Vizhinjam, Kerala. We built one,

one of the first of its kind in the world, you know,

to generate 150 kilowatts. That was also a very big

learning crosses for us because it consisted of a caisson

3000 tons in weight. We built it on the - on the

harbour, Vizhinjam harbour, towed it to the site

and seated it 10 metre. Our first attempt failed

because of many reasons: we didn't have right tug,

we use some prefabricated

technology for slabs connecting them,

it started leaking, so...

[Prof. Idichandy] Probably, you could not also get contractors who can do

[Prof. Ravindran] Yes so [Prof. Idichandy] this type of -

Professor Raju used his contact with Larsen Toubro.

He said it is a national programme,

so they have to help us. So, like that

the Vice President of Larsen Toubro,

[Prof. Ravindran] Dr. Ramakrishnan. [Prof. Idichandy] Ramakrishnan.

Ramakrishnan was there and he agreed, even though

it was not a profitable business for them - it was

a technology demonstration capability of Larsen Toubro

for this project. First of its kind there caisson; fabricated

and floated out and then rest of the equipments

assembled on it, built a bridge to the shore which has

seated 50 metres away from the near breakwater.

So, that was also a tremendous

learning process and demonstration of capability of IIT Madras

on all the aspects and we commissioned that,

that's how I got involved then.

When we did that Professor Indiresan said

we want you to permanent -

I was a deputation of Mechanical to

this thing; then he said, "No, we want you to

permanently be in Ocean Engineering Centre."

So, I became a permanent faculty

of Ocean Engineering Centre.

And at that time only, also,

we have commissioned the second stage of German

support to us. We expand our facility to include

multi-element wavemaker. We formed a group of

multidisciplinary faculty from IIT, Ocean Engineering Centre,

your group and Sundaravadivelu's group doing the structural connections

and we did the mechanical part of that

[inaudible] running the sophisticated wave-making facility,

3-dimensional wavemaking

facility which was full of hydraulics.

Very complicated system of first of its kind installed.

And that way that time it was a

first thing which happened that

2 million German marks were used

[Prof. Ravindran] to buy an equipment not from Germany. [Prof. Idichandy] Yes.

[Prof. Ravindran] We bought that from Denmark. [Prof. Idichandy] Denmark.

So, that was also another thing we could,

because I was Head of the Department

we could convince the German representative

who was staying with us, one Dr. ?? We want the

best equipment which is affordable.

The German equipment was very very expensive.

An extension of a 4 metre flume would have been very expensive

which is hydraulic-based, this was servo motor base one.

So, that's how we got that equipment.

And it was a cooperation. We gave - IIT gave

20 million rupees, for the associated

structure facilities and infrastructure

[Prof. Ravindran] they gave us 2 million German marks [Prof. Idichandy] German marks.

for the especially imported equipment.

That's how we could commission this

[Prof. Ravindran] special facility which is unique in this part of the world. [Prof. Idichandy] Yeah.

[Prof. Idichandy] In fact, Ocean Engineering Centre at that

[Prof. Idichandy] time was probably the only one of its kind in South-East Asia [Prof. Ravindran] Yes true.

[Prof. Idichandy] which had most of the facilities under one roof.

[Prof. Ravindran] That too, even Germany did not have, you know.

[Prof. Idichandy] Yes. [Prof. Ravindran] And see there were facilities

under commercial or private this thing like

[Prof. Ravindran] National Hydronus Laboratory in Trondheim. [Prof. Idichandy] Yeah.

They were all privately owned laboratories.

Under a university system,

I think this was the first of its kind of the unique

facilities, so many facilities under one group.

I think that showed the success of our initiative in IIT Madras.

And Germans supported us very much.

I think that was a brainchild of

Professor Indiresan to develop this and

he had special interest in oceans.

[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah. [Prof. Ravindran] Because before he came to IIT Madras, he was in

Centre for Applied Research in Electronics.

There he has worked a lot of things on underwater

[Prof. Ravindran] acoustics, electronics, etcetera. [Prof. Idichandy] I think...

[Prof. Ravindran] So, he had a special interest in Ocean Engineering Centre. [Prof. Idichandy] Yes.

Even after his retirement he came and stayed with us

[Prof. Ravindran] as a faculty of Ocean Engineering Centre. [Prof. Idichandy] Just like us.

I think a lot of great support for him we developed this

in disciplinary group. I - now I think we have

lot of Mechanical Engineers and there are other

people in Ocean Engineering Centre. [Prof. Idichandy] Yes, correct.

[Prof. Ravindran] I think that was a vision of Professor Indiresan we should review. [Prof. Idichandy] Yeah.

[Prof. Idichandy] And he is totally a multidisciplinary. [Prof. Ravindran] Yes, yes.

[Prof. Idichandy] Coming back again to the - I think, no wonder the

[Prof. Idichandy] President of Germany himself came and [Prof. Ravindran] Came, yes.

[Prof. Idichandy] inaugurated it. [Prof. Ravindran] Yes. That was one of our

best achievement because till that time Ocean Engineering Centre

[Prof. Ravindran] never had any recognition even within India. [Prof. Idichandy] Yeah.

Even though we had done 1 or 2 projects for ONGC and all that.

The whole facility, the uniqueness

of Ocean Engineering Centre was not known to anybody

outside our Ocean Engineering Centre.

So, we sent, we requested the German department of GTZ

[Prof. Ravindran] German agency for technical cooperation. [Prof. Idichandy] Technical cooperation, yes.

To support us and they were also thrilled that

you know, they could bring the President

to inaugurate such a very important

example of that cooperation to us.

Even though Ocean Engineering Centre came very late into the

German aid program, and we have become a - such a

big advertisement for them

or, this thing we've achieved a very major result within a short time.

That was the happiness of German agency also.

They will like to also support us

[Prof. Ravindran] and that was a very good thing yes. [Prof. Idichandy] In fact, it was

[Prof. Idichandy] also a big news for the German media. [Prof. Ravindran] Yes.

[Prof. Idichandy] For the President came. And one of the aspects

which they projected was such a facility is not available in Germany.

[Prof. Ravindran] Yes. [Prof. Idichandy] Whereas, the government has supported,

[Prof. Idichandy] want to be created in the... [Prof. Ravindran] You know and

that was the greatness of German,

[Prof. Ravindran] they agreed to that otherwise. [Prof. Idichandy] Correct, correct.

normally a donor agency

never allows such a major equipment,

money to be spent outside Germany.

[Prof. Ravindran] They will like to use it for their own industrial support. [Prof. Idichandy] Correct.

[Prof. Ravindran] But this was - I mean, when we convinced them

they accepted that. I think that was a very magnanimous

[Prof. Ravindran] way in which they accepted. [Prof. Idichandy] Ok.

[Prof. Idichandy] I think the caisson - again it was rebuilt [Prof. Ravindran] Yes.

[Prof. Idichandy] second time. [Prof. Ravindran] Yes. After the first failure

when we could not place it

at the right place at the right tide.

We... it got damaged also during the big monsoon time.

We designed a stronger caisson little bit

[Prof. Ravindran] more of more surplus [Prof. Idichandy] Ok.

strength - that is factor of safety was slightly more.

And this was slightly constructed in a slightly different

procedure that the - only the basic raft was

[Prof. Ravindran] built on the shore. [Prof. Idichandy] Shore.

On the beach. Then we pulled the raft into the sea

and then built the super structure

of nearly 20 metres in the floating water.

[Prof. Ravindran] The whole raft was floating. [Prof. Idichandy] Yeah.

And that was a big challenge because

when we put concrete on one side

because of the floating mode it used to tilt.

So, keeping the right angle and the

strength and uniformity was a

big challenge to Larsen Turbo.

But still it was a very good demonstration of the

new capability of building this huge caisson

which was ballasted with 3000 tonnes of sand

to make it sit on the floor.

It became a gravity structure.

No foundations were added

and all - it was just sitting on a

prepared rubble bed which was prepared by divers.

And we built the turbine and

the generator afterwards, after building a connecting bridge

where there was no crane. It was purely, it was another

learning experience how to build a

50 metres long bridge from the breakwater to the

[Prof. Ravindran] caisson sitting in 10 metres water depth. [Prof. Idichandy] Ok.

So, without big crane, without a Harley crane of 2 tonnes capacity,

so, slowly like they build this a road, railway bridges now,

[Prof. Ravindran] we built extension; extension we built over the oceans. [Prof. Idichandy] Yeah yeah yeah.

[Prof. Ravindran] Yes, that was - [Prof. Idichandy] I think the second caisson worked

[Prof. Idichandy] probably about 15 years later. [Prof. Ravindran] Yes,

that is one of the longest

[Prof. Ravindran] working wave enery plant in a whole world. [Prof. Idichandy] World.

The Belfast people started one,

but that fell into the sea within about 2-3 years.

So, that way ours was the longest surviving.

We commissioned in 1989 that was the last eve,

[Prof. Ravindran] New Year Eve success, December 31st. [Prof. Idichandy] Oh, yes.

It was ... a happiness. After initial

failure it was a very great joy for all of us

when we seated it properly and then

slowly we added the turbine and generator,

we pumped power to the grid. Then, after the initial

system was commissioned with induction generator

that is induction motor, very conventional rendered machine,

Kirloskar machine, run at a speed higher than the

synchronous speed to work as a generator,

cheapest possible generator. But that was

very stiff, you know, torque slip characteristics

3 percent when speed is the

power went from 0 to 100 percent.

The wave characteristics didn’t match that very much.

We looked out for a very simple and rugged machine.

So, slowly we involved the faculty from

[Prof. Ravindran] Electrical Engineering like this fellow, Professor Jagadish Kumar. [Prof. Idichandy] Yeah.

He started a variable speed induction motor,

then control of the speed in line with the

power availability from the waves. We did lot of

research on the electrical machine also

plus which slowly change the type of

turbine from adjustable guide blades,

we have put adjustable guide blades,

then we fixed guide blades.

Then, we said that during monsoon

the power availability is so high

we designed for average power.

The peak power was nearly

[Prof. Ravindran] 10 times that of the average power. [Prof. Idichandy] Oh.

So, we said, "Why we should lose that peak power?"

So, we changed the type of design of the turbine from

reaction turbine, low pressure reaction to

high pressure impulse turbine,

similar to the work done by Japanese,

we have cooperation with Germany.

Then, we involved the faculty from Aeronautics Department

[Prof. Ravindran] the Professor Santhakumar. [Prof. Idichandy] Santhakumar.

[Prof. Ravindran] I think you are right.

He came and he developed a test rig also, done for the

Bio Nuclear Lab. So, it was a really

a wholehearted cooperation from faculty, we developed

new machines. We developed and we attained a very high

overall efficiency compared to anybody else in the world.

Only: our sadness is that we could not

put that in the harbour that was being built in the

[Prof. Ravindran] Valiyathura harbour. [Prof. Idichandy] Ok.

Near Kollam, there was a harbour project coming

not Valiyathura, near Kollam.

But...they said we are having stones which are very

cheaply available in the nearby hills.

So, our caisson was little more expensive.

So, we had planned all this, that this

path will be part of the breakwater,

as a multipurpose breakwater -

that we could not achieve because they could get -

because there's still; hills are available in Kerala to break.

So, you know environmentally it was not nice, but they said

this is the cheapest way we have the money only for this.

So, even though it was the best wave energy device we could develop,

we could not put it in a commercial ...

[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah. [Prof. Ravindran] production mode.

[Prof. Idichandy] Speaking about the economics of, you know, wave energy,

I think it is definitely not

comparable with the conventional energy

[Prof. Idichandy] that is probably the case with the - any - any - you know, [Prof. Ravindran] Yes.

[Prof. Ravindran] Yes, that is true. [Prof. Idichandy] non-conventional energy.

Because the two main reason is that, that the

wave energy varies; wave energy potential

of the wave varies continuously from

very low, almost 0 during calm period,

during the non- in between months like December and all.

It was very lull, you can see that it, like a lake,

compared to the monsoon it is June, July in Kerala,

it is peak we have 6 metre waves and 7 metre waves.

So, it's quite high. The ratio,

peak to average power is more than 10 to 15.

We have to design the structure to withstand the peak waves

[Prof. Ravindran] which is there for few days in a year [Prof. Idichandy] Correct, correct.

[Prof. Ravindran] whereas, you have to design the equipment for the average

for which is - so, that is the most difficult thing

[Prof. Ravindran] in a wave energy device in an country like India. [Prof. Idichandy] Ok.

That’s why we designed our system

as a multipurpose device where this caisson

when you put number of them in a row,

[Prof. Ravindran] it becomes a breakwater. [Prof. Idichandy] Yeah.

Instead of a stone breakwater with tetrapods

which dissipates the energy of the waves

to create a calm water behind in a harbour,

we said this will absorb and convert into electricity.

[Prof. Idichandy] In ... the same purpose. [Prof. Ravindran] So, this way it will be a

multi-purpose we can offset the extra cost

from the cost of breakwater.

[Prof. Ravindran] That's what we wanted to put in the Neendakara port. [Prof. Idichandy] Ok.

And somehow they said, still it is not

cheaper for them compared to stone breakwater.

So, in spite our best effort to convince the

Fisheries Ministry which was building,

[Prof. Ravindran] it was a fishing harbour, [Prof. Idichandy] Ok.

we could not do that.

But we are very confident that it is the best

device anywhere in the world [inaudible] see with our generators.

And Dr. Jayashankar who came in later,

unfortunately I should pay our respect to him, he is no more,

he was working on so many simulations of optimizing into

various components, electrical, mechanical, turbine,

hydrodynamics, etcetera, he was working much longer period

as a faculty he came from NIOT to IIT faculty.

And then, he has come with a very solid modelling proof

that the government system could be cheaper.

[Prof. Idichandy] Right. [Prof. Ravindran] any time.

So, he was negotiating with some people abroad for the project

and somebody was even willing to take his advice for certain funding.

They asked him: not to public?

He said, no, this technology is available,

is to be used by everybody

who is interested in renewal energy.

[Prof. Ravindran] So, he was not willing to sell this or restrict this technology [Prof. Idichandy] Right.

[Prof. Ravindran] to a particular agency. So, he didn’t do that.

He didn’t give the technology to them

and unfortunately, he passed away because of certain illness

[Prof. Ravindran] due to cancer. [Prof. Idichandy] Yeah.

So, I think that initiative has come down to this.

So, we are waiting still for a oil price to increase or

this place to come down.

[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah. I think later on the

power produce sort of so been used for desalination work.

[Prof. Ravindran] Yes, in order to demonstrate the multipurpose capability,

the Vizhinjam harbour has lot of fishermen who use lot of ice.

And also they need drinking water,

because during the previous monsoon, the

daily [inaudible], they have severe drought in these fishing harbours.

So, we had put desalination plant run by purely wave energy.

And demonstrated that we could give them everyday

at least 5000 litres of water from this small plant

[Prof. Idichandy] Ok. [Prof. Ravindran] purely run by wave energy and it was running for quite some time.

Well, I guess the - the - the total expenditure on this

like security because that is on the harbour.

Then, maintenance and because this is in the

corrosive one, environment, so that was bit high,

even though it could have been done.

So, we wanted the Kerala Government to take over

somehow they didn’t want to take over

because of the expense, they said we don't have budget.

So, after we were very confident that we have enough technology,

demonstration capability, demonstration done,

and then any day we can design a

commercial system, we said: ok, we will stop

and then we said we will dismantle the system.

So, after nearly 25 years, we have dismantled the system.

[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah. See, it's - it’s unfortunate, you know

you've put in so much of effort because lot of technology,

lot of, you know, knowledge has been generated from it,

but ultimately you know it could not be

used on a - on a commercial scale.

[Prof. Ravindran] Yeah. [Prof. Idichandy] Even if it is little expensive.

[Prof. Ravindran] Yeah, that is a tragedy in India I will say, this is my personal opinion.

You see, tidal power plant, the first ever plant was commissioned in

France, Rance, in 1966. 50 years it is working, still working.

Initially, it was known it is expensively - barrier,

the civil engineering construction cost of the barrier is expensive,

but now, having seen how much energy it has produced.

[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah, it's - [Prof. Ravindran] and now people want to build,

but India which has got a tremendous potential in Gulf of Cambay,

Gulf of Kutch, and feasibility

studies have been done for the last 20 years repeatedly.

Government have never took a decision

[Prof. Ravindran] to go for a tidal power plant [Prof. Idichandy] Tidal power.

which would have helped the Saurashtra region,

Marashtra region very much.

They were very clear designs done for a

[Prof. Ravindran] 800 megawatt plant in Gulf of Kutch. [Prof. Idichandy] Oh.

[Prof. Ravindran] 25 years ago. [Prof. Idichandy] Oh my god.

In the Ministry of Water Resources

there was a dedicated Chief Engineer, one Mr. H. R. Sharma

who got frustrated, he went to Mauritius,

really, after having done so much of work.

Similarly, we did a feasibility study after NIOT was started, oceans engineering centre.

We, ourselves, Professor Raju

was the coordinator, we did a feasibility [study] for Sundarbans.

We said we'll put a small plant, entire technology will be ours.

3 megawatt plant at the cost of about 3 crores or 4 crores

with a standby diesel power plant for the hospitals to be started.

Government, they worked on it for years, they didn’t take a decision.

So, somehow I feel that there is a reluctance

to go for a renewable energy plant in our country,

always quoting that it is expensive, expensive;

expensive from what sense? In a place like Sundarbans

[Prof. Ravindran] when there is no other power available. [Prof. Idichandy] Correct.

Like ... the first the Chairman, Atomic Power Commission

said, you know, no energy is costly than the position of no-energy,

[Prof. Ravindran] that our people have never understood. [Prof. Idichandy] Ok.

And we have been also highlighting the water plant

which was later - there also similar thing happened.

They were always asking where is the -

first plant they want to be commercially viable.

[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah. [Prof. Ravindran] See, same yardstick is not used for all ministry.

For example, ISRO they have put so many rockets

which was not commercially viable

or it was not technologically successful.

[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah. [Prof. Ravindran] Slowly, they have taken 30-40 years to

[Prof. Ravindran] come to a commercially viable stage. [Prof. Idichandy] Yeah.

That lead time was not coming to ocean technology or ocean energy,

that is my personal disappointment from the - our ministries.

[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah. And it’s - it's very strange you know

sometimes when it comes to political will,

it lacks because of I don't know

whether they have no confidence,

always in a 'I can blame, that it is not commercially viable,

so therefore, we are not going to - not going to support.'

[Prof. Idichandy] I think it is [Prof. Ravindran] Yes.

[Prof. Idichandy] very unfortunate. [Prof. Ravindran] We always trust first we have to prove

[Prof. Ravindran] technical viability first. [Prof. Idichandy] Yeah.

It takes few years of lead time -

till that is technically feasible, don’t ask about commercial viability.

[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah, exactly. [Prof. Ravindran] Because by that time maybe the commercial, like deep sea mining.

Even yesterday’s paper there was a report on deep sea mining.

We have been working on 20 years, and I was working on;

slowly we see that in this 20 years time it has became a viable.

[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah. [Prof. Ravindran] The cost of the cobalt, nickel, and this thing has gone up,

but if we start with technology we'll not be there, we'll be

[Prof. Ravindran] demonstrating next year. [Prof. Idichandy] That's correct.

Because if start with technology today

would have been another 20 years to mine this.

See, this is what our government is not accepting or understanding.

Always there is a lead to prove the technology

till it is proven commercially viable.

[Prof. Idichandy] Ok. Let us hope that there will be some change in the mindset of [Prof. Ravindran] Yes.

[Prof. Idichandy] the government. [Prof. Ravindran] Yes.

[Prof. Idichandy] Ok. Let us probably start with NIOT, next phase. [Prof. Ravindran] Yes.

I think the talk for starting a National Institute of Technology

or Ocean Technology for quite some time.

[Prof. Ravindran] Yes. [Prof. Idichandy] Because National Institute of Oceanography is there

[Prof. Ravindran] '66 onwards. [Prof. Idichandy] Yeah.

It was started long back, but then there is nothing on technology.

Every time there is, something is talked about, the - the - the -

I mean, the - the government or the department has to come to IIT

and probably the navy to some extent.

So, then this National Institute of Ocean Technology was thought of.

Probably, again Indiresan was behind it

and East Coast was taken was one of the places where it is

likely to come up. And then considering

all aspects especially the proximity of

IIT Ocean Engineering Department,

it has been decided to establish the centre

in - in Chennai to start with an IIT itself.

[Prof. Idichandy] That's a very wise decision, of course. [Prof. Ravindran] Yes.

[Prof. Idichandy] Both NIOT as well as IIT got benefitted

[Prof. Ravindran] Yes. [Prof. Idichandy] because of it.

[Prof. Idichandy] I think you were in the thick of -

[Prof. Ravindran] Yes. [Prof. Idichandy] you know, the entire establishment of the institute.

I think you should elaborate a little on that.

Yeah. Ever since the Ministry of Ocean Development was was started in 1982,

there was talk about ocean ... Dr. Qasim,

who felt the need for this.

Till that time, you know, from '66 when

people started talking about oceanography,

ocean technology need was not appreciated

till the offshore platform started coming.

[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah. [Prof. Ravindran] The entire technology for offshore oil

exploration was higher technology.

There was nothing indigenously available.

For every small thing, we have to pay through our nose

and ONGC slowly started developing

its own core strength from its [inaudible] team engineers.

And another thing is that the people, who knew oceans, the naval people,

they never understood the deepwater technology.

There was no need for them to understand deepwater technology.

For them the submarine operation depth was

[Prof. Ravindran] less than 300 metres. [Prof. Idichandy] That's correct.

So, they were happy.

So, the authorities or the advisors for the government authorities

never felt the importance of developing a capability

in deep sea technologies or offshore engineering proper.

[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah. [Prof. Ravindran] Till they realize, ok, offshore oil is one

but there are so many other thing

which are more - also equally important in offshore engineering

other than offshore oil platforms.

I think that came known to them

only after Ocean Engineering Centre was started.

[Prof. Idichandy] Yes. [Prof. Ravindran] When even before the [inaudible] could be commissioned,

I think you are the first to do demonstrate the launching capability of

offshore platform indigenously from our own platform.

So, people started understanding here;

capability is being built in Ocean Engineering Centre

and there is a need to go to

other unknown areas of deepwater technology.

So, that way, again, Professor Indiresan’s

idea was there. He had a very close

personal equation with Dr. Qasim

[Prof. Ravindran] because I think Indiresan daughter went to Antarctica. [Prof. Idichandy] Yeah.

And at day - at that time when Dr. Qasim proposed

in the first instance I think the end of 6th 5-year plan or something,

they'd prepared a totally green field, the institute budget with multiple,

I think about 80 or 100 crores.

Government had said no, no,

we don’t have money to start a green field institution.

So, they just closed it.

Then, it was lying low, then Professor Rama Rao came,

N. P. Rama Rao who was the

Secretary of Science and Technology, who was also in charge of

Ocean Development, Department, Ocean Development.

So, our Professor Raju and Professor Swamy

who was the then Director

when they went for discussion sometime with

DST said, we should take over.

I think Professor Raju was the main trust

that we should have a Institute of Ocean Technology

and we should do that.

And they say we don’t have much money.

So, then the Director offered that,

we offer the administrative support;

it could be started within the IIT campus,

they can use all the facilities of IIT in the R and D because

it is the interdisciplinary technology development institution.

They can use all our existing facilities.

So, we don’t have to create immediately a

huge infrastructure and other administrative support

we can give; security administration and other things.

So, you give us minimum money, we will start.

Then they said, where is the director?

we said: we also give one of our faculty

with that only it came in to be

[inaudible] was promoted - submitted by Dr. Rama Rao.

And for the first year, the budget was hardly 40 lakhs.

IIT accepted that, ok, give us 40 lakhs

maybe give us something more for the other 2 years the - initially

remaining parts of that 5-year plan

I think 7.5-year plan was hardly 2 crores

or so, for the entire 2 and half years or so.

IIT accepted that. They said we will provide our facilities to start.

So, give us project to individual departments

and then we will start working.

That’s how the NIOT came into being,

[Prof. Ravindran] otherwise NIOT would not have been started at all. [Prof. Idichandy] Started.

So, that real - this thing - thanks to go to IIT Madras,

the then Directo,r and Professor Raju.

And then, it so happened that they recommended my name

that we we will depute; even without my - they didn’t discuss

with me the idea. So, and at that time only the...

I just completed my term of Head of the Department.

And I was had more time. He said: ok, we will give Ravindran.

Even though it was a surprise to me,

it was not discussed with me,

I accepted because I just committed.

So, I was thankful for the confidence they had in me.

So, I said: it is a big challenge starting on Ocean Technology.

So, we have to right from

beginning, we need to look for land onwards, you know,

right from scratch we have to start

that was a big challenge, we accepted that,

and with all the cooperation from the Ocean Engineering Centre

and this thing, we started. And then within two years

the secretary of Ocean Development changed,

we got Dr. Muthunayagam who was the

senior person from ISRO. He came into the Oceans

and he is a man of the hardware type

because they are used to having projects

[Prof. Ravindran] with that time-bound delivery. [Prof. Idichandy] Yeah.

With no restraint on expenses, time frame,

they are all always project - time-based project.

So, when he took over in '95,

[Prof. Ravindran] we started in '93, November, [Prof. Idichandy] Yeah.

He said, he told me: Ravindran, why not we expand?

As long as we are restricted to this one

floor in ICSR building which built with that 40 lakhs first year,

he said you will still remain only as a pure R and D.

You cannot explain your activity.

There are so many different activities

to be taken up and this place is not sufficient.

So, we should look for a place at least 50 acres,

look for a place. So, we took a policy decision, ok.

Look for a place and build it.

As he said: no, we should build it within 2 years,

we don't have even a land you know at that time,

we didn’t have the money, but we took this challenge.

And then we asked the Government of Tamil Nadu

to give us some land. They wanted to give us some

land very far away or give us only

few grounds you know less than a acre for the institute.

We said no, give us the land which nobody else wants.

So, we got this garbage dump area

in Pallikaranai which was a marshy land with 7 feet of water.

We said: ok, give us, we will develop it.

So, that time the Commissioner of Land Administration

one Mr. Narayan IAS, very nice gentleman,

who later became Chief Secretary.

Within a very short time, he allotted 50 acres of land within

Madras city which was a very big gesture on the

part of the Tamil Nadu government.

And now, we could build this campus in

18 months as required by our secretary.

And that was the first time we committed

in writing to Planning Commission:

there will be no cost escalation

and time escalation and we did that.

So, there was a tremendous appreciation from

everybody concerning the Planning Commission

everybody, and that was one of the

nicest campus ... we have developed

from a garbage dump area with so much of facilities.

Even before the official commissioning we started work there like deep sea

mining technology, all works were started,

many projects were started in the ocean

apart from OTEC: data buoy programme, deep sea mining technology,

marine instrumentation, you know, to the activities there.

Then, later we added the data buoy programme

and they we built ships for ourself.

Go into the sea, because

without going into the sea, what do they learn?

So, we said we should survey and take sample from deep sea,

see, we built two small ships, later we built two big ships

which became really the best ships

[Prof. Ravindran] in our part of the country as a technology demonstration vessel. [Prof. Idichandy] Ok.

Which goes almost our - to southern oceans.

[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah. [Prof. Ravindran] To about 60 degrees South

and all that, it has gone.

So, such capability we have developed

[Prof. Ravindran] within a short time. [Prof. Idichandy] Yeah.

Yes. That is how the ocean technology...

and I took retirement in 2004.

It is 10 years, we did all these

the budget increase from 40 lakhs per year

first year - to more than 100 crores per year

when I retired and we had about 300 people

working for the institute. Nice campus, nice campus,

beautiful, with excellent facilities

technology-wise, capability-wise during the time.

[Prof. Idichandy] Ok. NIOT, to tell something about the

the these technology demonstrators

[Prof. Idichandy] done by the NIOT. [Prof. Ravindran] Yes.

Because they only even starting with water

[Prof. Ravindran] desalination. [Prof. Idichandy] Yes.

The first project which we came into

actual service to the humanity

in - in - in India is the data buoys programme

in which we have deployed data buoys floating around

in the Arabian Sea and the Bay of Bengal,

number of them, 12 of them.

They have all the ocean parameters and the

air parameters above the ocean.

One of the important requirements for

predicting our rainfall, cyclones, and storms was that the

[Prof. Ravindran] air-sea interaction, the weather or the [Prof. Idichandy] Yes.

air parameters just above the sea.

We didn’t have any offshore stations earlier.

So, we have to depend only from islands

like Andaman or Lakshadweep, in between we didn’t have

any measurement station. So, IMD was handicapped,

MET department was handicapped.

So, this data buoys give very very well information on the

energy coming from the oceans which are being

transferred to the air or the atmosphere

and change into rain or hurricanes or monsoon.

So, that became a very important contribution,

within I think '97, we commissioned that.

Our whole institute was started in '93,

that was one of the first solid contribution

to our society to understand the oceans - understand -

safeguard the coastal population from

hazards like hurricanes and storms.

That was the first one.

Then we started the Ocean Thermal Energy

conversion against the opposition

by Ministry of Non-Conventional Energy Resources

because that you are supposed to do, it

is not economical, they were opposing, opposing, opposing.

Actually, our Ministry Dr. Muthunayagam fought and took up this project.

With so much of opposition from many people

I - I don't want to name the people or the organization

who were opposing, when whole thing -

it was again a 2-year project, you know that we draw water

from 1000 metre water depth through a

[Prof. Ravindran] vertical pipeline hanging from the barge. [Prof. Idichandy] Yes.

Where all the equipment, power plant equipments are there,

all the plants, all the equipments about the barge, specially built

barge Sagar Shakti, which was built in Goa shipyard

within 18 months was tested.

Only the coded well could not be tested because

we have to go to the ocean to ... testing it.

It is tragedy that our country doesn't have

any offshore crane, even today.

We have to handle 200 tonnes of the anchor for the cold water pipe.

So, because like ONGC and all they hire this

crane from offshore for that season between December to April.

Then they go back to Dubai or Singapore.

So, when I went to Singapore and asked

for these people to come and place it,

yes, we erect with warranty, but the Defence Department

totally refused to give security clearance for this.

And he said: I want advance payment of

1 million dollars for the entire contract

because the payment delays are unacceptable to me.

I have seen from other experience. So, I want it.

These two conditions were

[Prof. Ravindran] refused by the Ministry. [Prof. Idichandy] Ministry.

They said use some other equipment which is available.

We have to hire a A frame without a - even a

crane possibility using a winch which failed,

which was supposed to have been tested by -

supposed to have been tested by Lloyd's.

So, we lost the cold water pipe.

So, everybody was objecting to the project said, we know

this is what will happen. It was a very very

unsympathetic remark by the officials,

and the other ministries, we felt very sad.

And out of, I don't know whether I should say that

total project about 30 crores, this damage was only 5 crores. We could have

[Prof. Idichandy] Ok. [Prof. Ravindran] renewed because the entire platform,

everything was tested and ready.

They said we will not give any more money.

So, we have to close the project.

That was one of the saddest part of my career in NIOT

[Prof. Ravindran] but we didn’t stop there, [Prof. Idichandy] Yes.

[Prof. Ravindran] Yes. [Prof. Idichandy] You know, it’s very sad, you know.

[Prof. Ravindran] Yes. [Prof. Idichandy] Some - I do not know whether it is bureaucrats or technocrats,

it take decisions without looking every aspect and then...

So, when other ministries were given

[Prof. Ravindran] so much time and money to prove the capability. [Prof. Idichandy] Yes.

They expect our first plan to be commercially successful,

commercially, say 1 megawatt

which have been the first commercial plan in the whole world

[Prof. Ravindran] they didn’t give us a chance to prove. [Prof. Idichandy] Ok.

Except one common fail, as it wind up the project.

The then Finance Minister wrote: good money for a bad project,

it was very very sickening to read.

[Prof. Idichandy] From the Finance Minister.

[Prof. Ravindran] What does he understand?

[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah, that's what. [Prof. Ravindran] Very unsympathetic remark

and this thing and based on that we were not given any money.

So, the entire 30 crores was left unutilized, scrapped.

[Prof. Idichandy] So, in fact, the real loss is only about 5 crores. [Prof. Ravindran] Yes.

Not - not even you know.

If we were allowed that crane to have been hired,

the right equipment to be hired at the right time,

we could have done that for same.

[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah. [Prof. Ravindran] We were not allowed.

So, we were asked to fight with our folded hands.

You have to work with whatever is available. And we failed.

[Prof. Idichandy] Okay. [Prof. Ravindran] So, but we didn’t

keep quiet. We...took up the other projects of

deep sea mining to mine polymetallic nodules

which are lying on the surface of the seabed at 5000 metre depth.

[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah. [Prof. Ravindran] And they are 2 kilo - 1000 kilometres away

from the Kanyakumari - South - Central Indian Ocean Basin.

So, we said we'd programme in steps.

First, you know, we develop a crawler,

and because we have never worked

more than 300; nobody has touched bottom and work.

So, as we should demonstrate capability

to work about 150-200 metres,

develop a crawler machine which will move on the seabed,

do some work and pump that

[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah, slurry, whatever it is. [Prof. Ravindran] soil up.

So, our technology was that we would pick up the nodules

crush it and send it through a hose, flexible risers.

So, we wanted to prove in stages. So, that was proven first.

We developed a crawler, first in - in this part of the world,

demonstrated off Tuticorin. Then re-demonstrated 500,

first 150 metres then 500 metres on West Coast

then we deployed because the nodules

are available only in 5000 metres.

[Prof. Idichandy] Ok. [Prof. Ravindran] So, to prove that availability, we

made artificial nodules and picked up these nodules.

Capability of picking up these nodules,

crushing, pumping, we demonstrated.

So, all those sub stages gone. So, now, we have to design - the NIOT -

designing the final version for 6000 metres

which is capable of pumping something like

[Prof. Ravindran] 8 kg of nodules [8 tonnes*] per hour [Prof. Idichandy] Ok.

with the slurry of about 10 percent by volume and which is

[Prof. Ravindran] pumping through a host 6000-metres long, [Prof. Idichandy] Yeah.

getting power supply also through a cable 6000-metres long.

So, how to install it, how to recover it, it is a big technology.

[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah. [Prof. Ravindran] So, slowly our engine start working. And we are hopeful that

the first the crawler we demonstrated in 2018,

and the full integrated test will be in 2020, that is our project.

So, we start work something like 10 years ago.

15 years ago, preliminary work was started, but

this we are done, it's a very tough technology because

[Prof. Ravindran] components are all not available [Prof. Idichandy] Yeah.

internationally, so, we have to develop most of the thing ourselves.

To prove the success of these things in deep sea water

because environment is very difficult

[Prof. Ravindran] 600-times atmospheric pressure, you know. [Prof. Idichandy] Yeah.

[Prof. Ravindran] 1000 times denser than the air. [Prof. Idichandy] Yes.

So, the forces are high, depths are unreachable.

So, the - no components is proven in

6000 metres, so far industrially.

So, we buy equipments and

[Prof. Ravindran] provide special casings [Prof. Idichandy] Casing.

to withstand and test about 900 bar.

50 percent more pressure.

So, that facility has been created, infrastructure.

So, these are the new type of the - such a facility doesn’t

[Prof. Ravindran] exist anywhere in this part of the world. [Prof. Idichandy] Exist.

[Prof. Ravindran] Even defence, you know, they have only 600 metres depth testing. [Prof. Idichandy] Yes.

Then fuel has, you know, like that.

So, building and creating facility itself is

a technology by itself.

Then, to go and survey this,

we have developed a remotely-operated vehicle.

Now, people know Titanic and people have gone in a -

people do not know: in India we have developed a

much better version to go to deeper waters.

We have published but now,

people are not really appreciating.

[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah. [Prof. Ravindran] See, your capability and we have done

underwater, ROV to work in Antarctica,

we went under the ice and bored at the bottom.

So, these capabilities we have developed, very unique facilities

which was never existing in our country.

So, we are - NIOT is very proud of this

capability and now after the tsunami...

[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah, 2004. [Prof. Ravindran] It was said that

yes, 2004, there was a strong need felt,

understandably, that we should have a warning system

even though it was very difficult to

have a very long advanced system.

Even 2 hours warning will be good enough.

So, we have put tsunami warning system

that is the special sensors, you are aware,

pressure sensors which sense the

surface variations of that. Once we recognize that,

nature immediately gives a warning.

[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah. [Prof. Ravindran] Through our data buoy system

acoustically from the bottom 4000 metres to the surface buoy

[Prof. Ravindran] from there through satellite communication to our [Prof. Idichandy] Satellite.

standard data buoy system, we are able to. So, we have made

4 such system and installed on the Arabian Sea

because that is the direction in which the most of our tsunami

[Prof. Ravindran] waves are coming periodically. [Prof. Idichandy] Tsunami is likely to have.

So, apart from US, we are

the only country manufacturing these devices.

I think you have tested some of them also the

[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah. [Prof. Ravindran] pressure sensors.

So, I had - NIOT has proven capability to prove this

special equipment in deeper waters

[Prof. Ravindran] which was never there in our country. [Prof. Idichandy] Yeah.

We - they were all imported.

So, we are slowly indigenizing this capability.

[Prof. Idichandy] In fact, you know, it's a totally unexplored area

with not much information, not much technology,

but I think anybody has, can be proud that

especially you can be so proud that

you could achieve, you know;

most of these things in a very very short time.

It is not that - and with very limited resources.

[Prof. Ravindran] Yeah. That too, that's right. Yes. [Prof. Idichandy] I think that is the - you know.

That is true; also in addition to this

in deep sea technologies, we are also we are providing

special benefits like you know,

we also have biotechnology-related activities.

For fishermen we gave technology of lobster

[Prof. Idichandy] Yes. [Prof. Ravindran] being grown in cages in 2 metre water depth.

[Prof. Idichandy] Yes. [Prof. Ravindran] So, they don't have to go into deeper waters and

be demonstrated in - we gave technology to

fisherman in near Thoothukudi, Tharuvaikulam, Erwadi, and all that.

We give them baskets which will survive the waves and currents.

So, it is in 2 metre; people can walk or they can

go and pick up this. It is like a bank you know where

these lobsters are there. Whenever you need money,

go and be - sells per kilo 800 rupees, 1000 rupees

those days, before 10 years.

So, people have - can save diesel, but only thing is

they come in - grow easily in shallow - clean waters.

[Prof. Idichandy] Yes. [Prof. Ravindran] So, unless people maintain clean

beaches we cannot grow lobsters or mud crabs.

[Prof. Idichandy] Ok. [Prof. Ravindran] So, this technology also we have developed.

Now, we are working on medicine

from the sea that is biodiesel also.

These are many activities. Now, new technology, now,

we have ventured into is that

the aquaculture farm land is polluting the land you know,

[Prof. Ravindran] they are losing the coastal aquifers. [Prof. Idichandy] Yeah, yeah.

So, now, like Norway has done,

we go into the deeper sea, put huge cages.

[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah. [Prof. Ravindran] 10 metres, 20 metre diameter cages and

50 metres high and grow fishes there,

big fishes which go up to 30 kg, 50 kg.

[Prof. Ravindran] We have already done this in Mandapam and Andaman area. [Prof. Idichandy] I see, Ok.

And we have demonstrated about 12 kgs.

So, now, this is going to be a major blue water economy

for our country, that, you know, we like to develop

this offshore fish farming technology which was never existent.

[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah. [Prof. Idichandy] So, that for that you know we need lot of

mechanical design like, you know, offshore designs

[Prof. Ravindran] of these cages which would survive [Prof. Idichandy] Survive.

in our monsoon weather conditions.

So, moorings, feeding devices,

so, really, even though its a fishes related,

[Prof. Ravindran] it is a interdisciplinary technology. [Prof. Idichandy] Yeah.

So, that actually also has come up and

[Prof. Ravindran] we have put a office in Andamans [Prof. Idichandy] Yeah.

to study the island environment and give them support,

survey into lot of other engineering work which, of course,

Ocean Engineering Centre also is doing - so, like that -

but most of the projects are

engineering-oriented, not stop with R and D. Provide a -

[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah. [Prof. Ravindran] solution to a problem in which we can harvest the

resources from the sea: either it is energy or food

or save the people from natural hazards.

[Prof. Ravindran] Hazards. [Prof. Idichandy] Like hurricanes, tsunami.

And then keep a complete warning system for monsoon protections.

[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah. [Prof. Ravindran] So, these are all the services being

[Prof. Ravindran] offered. [Prof. Idichandy] No, there is something very unique about

NIOT that... it is not just the R and D alone but

[Prof. Ravindran] Yes. [Prof. Idichandy] you always demonstrated in the industry.

[Prof. Ravindran] Yes, that is the thing, no? [Prof. Idichandy] Yeah.

[Prof. Ravindran] Unlike NIO, you know, people have studying for research's sake. [Prof. Idichandy] Yeah.

They study about the oceans, understand oceans,

but we do engineering projects for the benefit of the people.

So, that is the difference.

So, we need lot more people but we need support.

[Prof. Idichandy] In fact, there is something which [Prof. Ravindran] That support is not yet coming.

[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah that. [Prof. Ravindran] Large numbers.

[Prof. Idichandy] Ocean, if the - if the - it is something which is totally neglected.

[Prof. Ravindran] Yes. [Prof. Idichandy] In fact, we don't even have sufficient data.

[Prof. Ravindran] Yes. [Prof. Idichandy] Only after, you know,

[Prof. Ravindran] Yes, yes, yes. [Prof. Idichandy] the data buoy is

[Prof. Ravindran] Yes, yes. [Prof. Idichandy] collecting data only we have something like

you know, some data is available at this - so, right from that...

[Prof. Ravindran] Yes, yes. Even fisheries not fully exploited. [Prof. Idichandy] Yeah.

There is a joke saying that you know: one -

Indian waters' fish die of old age because they are never caught.

Yes, because we don’t have deep sea fishing trawlers.

[Prof. Ravindran] We don’t have deep sea fishing harbours. [Prof. Idichandy] Yes.

That - that is a policy lacking, lacuna there.

[Prof. Idichandy] Yes. [Prof. Ravindran] for deep sea fishing.

[Prof. Idichandy] It's a - it's a big tragedy, I mean.

[Prof. Idichandy] And - [Prof. Ravindran] Recently there was a conference of one forum

called Forum for Integrated National Security

for the country organised by- supported by

Ministry of HR Affairs and Norway,

and there we are talking about ocean security.

See, we are working now all over the place

[Prof. Ravindran] our ship goes all over the place. [Prof. Idichandy] Yes.

Now, Chinese are watching;

wherever we go Chinese are behind us.

We have to provide security.

[Prof. Ravindran] How are these offshore activities safe [Prof. Idichandy] Yeah.

from these people? People have totally

[inaudible] the threat coming from deep sea.

See, when you go on deep sea mining,

[Prof. Ravindran] you're 2000 kilometre away from coast. [Prof. Idichandy] Coast, yes.

Any health emergency, we don’t have support.

Any threat, security threat, we don’t, so.

So, in some of the ships, we carry gunmen,

hired from abroad, paying through our nose.

So, that's aspect also is not been taken seriously,

so far by Government of India. Now only they are talking about it.

So, we have 7000 kilometres of coast, how are we protecting them?

[Prof. Idichandy] And the huge area. [Prof. Ravindran] Like the 26-11 disaster

[Prof. Ravindran] can take place anytime. [Prof. Idichandy] Yes, correct.

How are we protecting?

So, we should understand oceans,

how do we protect our coast?

Not only look for resources,

how do you protect this science and technology activities?

[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah. [Prof. Ravindran] Resource harvesting activities.

[Prof. Idichandy] Great wealth - wealth is, you know,

[Prof. Idichandy] Lying below. [Prof. Ravindran] Lying below, yeah.

First, we don’t know we don’t know how to protect them.

[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah, that's correct. [Prof. Ravindran] Others are harvesting.

[Prof. Idichandy]I think it should be a complete policy change is required...

[Prof. Ravindran] Yes, the ocean technology needs much more investment

[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah. [Prof. Ravindran] and in terms of finance and manpower.

[Prof. Ravindran] I think - till the Ocean Engineering Centre was, nobody knew what was oceans.

[Prof. Idichandy] Correct, yeah. [Prof. Ravindran] Nobody knew what was offshore structure even.

[Prof. Idichandy] Yes. [Prof. Ravindran] So, Ocean Centre was the beginning

but a small group - we are doing within the

institutions and doing consultancies but

this set of activity, 2000 kilometres away: we need institutions,

we need infrastructure like big ships, standby ships, helicopters.

See, we go to Antarctica, we take 2 helicopters with us.

But when you go to CIOB which is also far away

it is 20 days journey, we don't take helicopters.

We take all of the risk.

So, we need investment, we need more ships,

more supporting systems, more manpower.

Another more important is: the policy making.

[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah. [Prof. Ravindran] Officials.

[Prof. Idichandy] That is - [Prof. Ravindran] They don’t understand oceans.

[Prof. Idichandy] Yes. [Prof. Ravindran] More important, we do not teach anything to our school boys.

[Prof. Idichandy] Exactly. [Prof. Ravindran] In one of the colleges, we asked: how are the

waves made - we are creating awareness about ocean,

we just asked, how do you get waves?

Ships are moving, so we get waves.

This is the knowledge of people about waves.

Nobody knows, even the teacher,

school teachers do not know about oceans.

[Prof. Idichandy] So, it's a - [Prof. Ravindran] So, we have to have a awareness

[Prof. Ravindran] even at the school level [Prof. Idichandy] School level.

about the oceans, then only

[Prof. Ravindran] our officials will know what oceans are. [Prof. Idichandy] Yeah.

So, that's why I said

way forward is to educate our policy-making bodies:

[Prof. Ravindran] officials and ministers. [Prof. Idichandy] Yeah, I think it should start in the school itself because

now there is absolutely nothing.

You know, when a student, 12th standard, when he passes, you know,

I do not think he knows anything about ocean.

I was telling you, this engineering college student said

waves are made by ships, so, like...

[Prof. Idichandy] Ok. I think, I know you can go for hours

[Prof. Ravindran] Yeah. [Prof. Idichandy] talking about NIOT and its programme.

Why did you suddenly decide to say...

[Prof. Ravindran] Yeah. [Prof. Idichandy] That is a.

I was 60, even though there was a request both

by Dir - you know, Professor Ananth came and

requested me to come back as a Professor Emeritus,

you made a request formally, Government of India

also said that. I said the last 12 years of

NIOT, it was a tremendous work, even my wife

was complaining that I don't have time even to talk to her.

[Prof. Idichandy] Ok. [Prof. Ravindran] Really, I used to travel so much,

day night spending the time.

So, she said, let us do something other than technology.

[Prof. Ravindran] So, no more coming to a permanent institution. [Prof. Idichandy] Ok.

So, at that time, we were starting a

parallel activity of social service to a

[Prof. Ravindran] tribal community in Dharmapuri district in the reserve forest. [Prof. Idichandy] Ok.

So, with our doctor friends, we were trying to establish a hospital.

They needed manpower, not only money,

but they needed people to work with them.

Even though they were willing to stay,

but they need lot of support to collect money,

get some approvals, construct the hospital,

bring equipments and bring people administratively.

So, we said we'll go and help them.

And I was also working with Gandhigram,

[Prof. Ravindran] designing small small machines for them [Prof. Idichandy] Yeah.

[Prof. Ravindran] for minimizing the manual effort of rural ladies

who are working in some of our

[Prof. Idichandy] Ok. [Prof. Ravindran] spinning, weaving, and ayurvedic medicine preparations,

soap-making, etcetera. So, I thought I would spend more time,

something different and then spend more time with

the family because I - which I never was able to spend

right from the day 1 - heavy work you know,

in the Turbomachines Laboratory, see

[Prof. Ravindran] I was in charge of major fabrication erection. [Prof. Idichandy] Yes.

And my PhD also was very [inaudible] and then

Ocean Engineering Centre was also a tough [inaudible]

erection, lot of facilities, when we came, in NIOT,

totally different work. So, I started to spend more time.

Went home, and then spend time with these people

where you see immediate benefit, where ocean technology

has got lot - time-relevant for

success. Lead time is there;

[Prof. Ravindran] Yeah. [Prof. Idichandy] Even after 2 years we don't see this.

[Prof. Idichandy] Correct. [Prof. Ravindran] Somebody whereas, here instantly within few weeks,

few months, teaching the small kids who are school drop-outs

doing something with their own hands:

repairing a motor, repairing a pipeline, water pipeline, welding,

[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah. [Prof. Ravindran] constructing, we have trained small kids to build -

[Prof. Idichandy] Masonry work. [Prof. Ravindran] masonry work with compressed bricks without any cement.

[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah. [Prof. Ravindran] You should see the hospital

and the guesthouse building which they have built.

The kids whom we have seen with 15-16

we have taught them and - and they have built -

they have become masons.

So, that really, it's a real

[Prof. Ravindran] happiness which we - [Prof. Idichandy] That is a different type of satisfaction you know.

[Prof. Ravindran] Yes, [inaudible]. [Prof. Idichandy] Nothing like -

And then we gave our small machine to decorticate groundnut,

at sometimes they used to, they used to sell cheaply

[Prof. Ravindran] because they cannot process them. [Prof. Idichandy] Yes, yes.

So, post-harvesting using machine. So, when we gave the one

we can see the happiness in the whole village

that now they are able to use

that groundnut because they are able to decorticate,

they can make chutney, they can make sweets,

they can go and get it crushed, and make oil,

they don't have to sell as a raw material

to somebody who sells the -

brought it back to them at a 3 times cost.

That you know is something - capability building.

Now, the people whom - fellow who did not know

how to speak English or anything is the electrician for the EV.

For the entire village.

We have taught them how to rewind motors, how to repair pumps,

how to lay pipeline, now all hospital: our wiring,

everything is done by these kids whom we have trained.

And in fact, the skill development, you know, it's a

mission of the Central Government; it should happen like this,

I mean, at the - at the grassroot level,

you go there and stay with them and then teach them.

So that, you know, they are independent and they

don't have to depend on anybody else.

So, I would like to tell you something very - my bad experience

with so-called skill development of tribals.

I applied for the project with Ministry of Science,

they have special money and lot of money.

We said: this is what we want to do,

this school dropout kids, we want to train and

we want welding machine, a lathe, and these things,

and a small dormitory because they walk down from hills,

they cannot go back, they will be with us at least for 3 months.

[Prof. Idichandy] Ok. [Prof. Ravindran] So, we want to give them some food and shelter.

Yeah, dormitory accommodation: you know, the committee

of Science and Technology came: Sir, you are a professor from IIT,

why are you asking for such low-grade equipment

like lathes and welding machine?

You ask for project with [inaudible] we will give you

because we know you - you are not going to stay there.

You will go - something will -

I said, I have a house, I have a commitment to live with them.

You come and see my house there. People said no.

I told the then secretary: no,

I said something is wrong with your approach to the tribal.

They have a training fund; skill-development fund.

I was asked to submit a project.

After that the expert committee ask these questions.

I said: I don't want your money.

I want only if you give me. I am not

something, any another project - that was my personal experience.

So, we don't get anyway;

all this effort is done by private money.

There is no government and their money or

Government of Tamil Nadu money, you know.

[inaudible] worked with tribals, even the lot of

[Prof. Ravindran] projects. [Prof. Idichandy] Is there any appreciation from either the government or?

[Prof. Ravindran] Government? No. Government, there is no appreciation,

but lot of other agency which recognize us,

they are give us some awards here and there.

Now, we because we also do organic farming

[Prof. Idichandy] Ok. [Prof. Ravindran] with certification.

So, that's a, even in hills where there is no rainwater

we have to keep them to grow millets and

you know post-harvesting machines; that is

what we want - they stopped worrying because

they could not do like millets, they cannot dehusk them.

They are very hard.

So, we have a small small machines to dehusk them.

And we mark it down further.

So, that way you see the - in the last 20 years,

the tremendous development has taken place in that village,

among women we taught them embroidery.

You do at home and then earn

[Prof. Ravindran] 100 rupees more from embroidery. [Prof. Idichandy] Oh.

Women at home; empowering women

[Prof. Ravindran] it's really the empowering women. [Prof. Idichandy] Yeah.

Then we have these people, we give them free

as - because we collect many 100 rupees from each individual,

[Prof. Ravindran] give them 1 year of free medical help, both [Prof. Idichandy] Ok.

inpatient, outpatient, all medicines free, 100.

[Prof. Ravindran] Just to make them to come to hospital. We have nearly

40 bed hospital with extremely good facilities,

with all facility, ECG, this thing, monitoring, everything.

It is much better than a district hospital in the middle of the village.

And we run a school now for the staff children.

[Prof. Ravindran] They said [Prof. Idichandy] Ok.

our children must speak English like you.

They were kids when we started the hospitals,

when we trained them, the girls, you know

all our nurses are only local girls, tribal girls.

[Prof. Ravindran] Our doctors have trained them. [Prof. Idichandy] Ok.

And now the children are grown up

and [inaudible], built a school for them, teach them English.

[Prof. Ravindran] We are doing that. That is happiness. [Prof. Idichandy] Okay.

[Prof. Idichandy] Great, with Professor Ravindran, we have been on a

very long journey in small 1 hour;

I don’t know how many minutes we have taken about 100 minutes.

[off-camera] Yes. [Prof. Idichandy] Or little above that.

[off-camera] Yes yes. [Prof. Idichandy] I am sure that this message will go to many many

people once it comes out as a project of the

Heritage Centre of IIT Madras.

I hope some of the remarks that you have made

reaches the people to whom it is meant and

with that note let me take -

Thank you very much.

I think, thanks for your time and I think I'll thank the Heritage Centre,

Mr. Kumaran and Mrs. Mamata for the

effort they are taking to talk to the alumni and faculty together.

[Prof. Idichandy] Senior people. [Prof. Ravindran] Senior people who have spent a lot of time

[Prof. Ravindran] to get a feedback of their experience. [Prof. Idichandy] Yeah.

Now and then. Make it public, I think,

[Prof. Ravindran] if people I think they have been, yes. [Prof. Idichandy] Yeah, I am sure it will go.

I think, I have said lot of things, they are purely my opinion.

[Prof. Idichandy] Yeah. [Prof. Ravindran] Not meant to hurt to people, but my personal feeling

because we have worked so much: 50 years in this business

of education and technology.

So, certain times, you know, I used to really get frustrated

because of somebody not supporting, not understanding.

So, whatever I said is because of that frustration,

but it is not meant to hurt anybody,

[Prof. Ravindran] but really, I - what. [Prof. Idichandy] No, I think whatever you have said will be

taken in - in the - true spirit of it.

But I am really thankful to, really, my career growth

opportunities, especially the final great opportunity of NIOT came

[Prof. Ravindran] because of my association with IIT Madras [Prof. Idichandy] Yeah.

Ocean Engineering Centre because I never expected

that I become a Ocean Engineer,

and especially my association with Professor Scheer

in Turbomachines Laboratory,

the support, given on the training [inaudible] so.

And that has helped me in other parts of life, you know,

you became a better overall well-rounded person.

And then, we are able to help people.

So, the hands-on experience, everywhere helpful,

[Prof. Ravindran] either in our rural technology or hospital [Prof. Idichandy] Ok.

or Ocean Technology, we able to see through a

wide spectrum of activities because of that

great experience from IIT Madras.

[Prof. Idichandy] I thank - [Prof. Idichandy] Ok, I think one thing I forgot is

[Prof. Idichandy] asking something about the family, yeah.

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Prof. S. Kumaraswamy in conversation with Prof. M.S. Shunmugam

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Prof. S. Ramani in conversation with Prof. C.S. Swamy

I am Dr. C. S Swamy,

former colleague of Professor Ramani.

So, we are known each other almost from the time

we joined together around 1961.

Professor Ramani was born in

July 16, 1934 16 July at Salem.

He had his education B.E. Mechanical

1956 he got his graduation, Madras University.

He also got B.E. Electrical

1958 in Madras University

and more than anything he was

a also got in Auxiliary Air Force

he was a aeronautical ground engineer

and he did his Masters in IC Engineering, Internal Combustion

in 1960 in Madras University,

post graduate diploma

on in management from IIM

Calcutta in 1967

he went from IIT to do that

and finally, he got his Ph.D.

in Industrial Engineering from IIT Madras.

So, he is an alumnus of IIT Madras.

Then, during in 1955 to 61

he was a lecturer in

MIT Chrompet

and 56 to 63 he was also a commissioned flying officer

in the Auxiliary Air Force,

1961 to 83

he served in IIT Madras

in various capacities starting with lecturer

and finally,

was a professor

he was both taking courses on Mechanical

as well as Industrial Engineering and Management.

And he moved over as a director

of NITIE the expansion being National Institute of

Industrial Engineering and under the Ministry of HRD

at Bombay now called Mumbai

and he retired in 93

and during this period

he had he was sent a deputation

from IIT Madras for 5 years and since it

deputation could not be renewed

and he was requested to continue in NITIE

because of large contribution there.

So, he transferred his services to NITIE.

So, he retired from the NITIE in 93.

But he served as a senior professor

in Acadamy of Excellence in Management, Chennai

and he was also a vice chancellor

of Kanchi University for 2 years 96 to 98.

Now since 98 till he

completed his 80 years 2014

he has been several things

he has been advisor, consulting professor,

distinguish adjunct faculty

in several colleges and universities in Tamilnadu.

And as regards the awards and distinction

that is a very large number starting from a student days,

but I would like to just mention

that he was conferred

the Lillian Gilbreth award for outstanding contribution

towards the Professional Industrial Engineering in 1987

by triple I E

hope with a International Institution Industrial Engineering. That's correct.

And he was also confer the Distinguished Alumini Award

College and Engineering at Guindy. Yes.

Professor Ramani, I just I wanted to clarification. Yes.

Namely you have taken your B.E. in two branches.

True. Mechanical. True. Electrical,

but during this period you were also serving

as a faculty member in MIT Chromepet. Yes.

Did you do it by part time?

It is like this

after I finished my B.E. degree

in Mechanical Engineering. Yeah.

Which is a 4 year course

they permitted us to do take up Electric Engineering

with one more year of attendance.

Oh I see. Because many subjects were common

between Mechanical and Electrical. Yeah.

So, I did that

B.E. in electrically with one more years attendance

and then joined MIT Chromepet.

Oh I see. And from my MIT Chromepet

after 2 years I was deputed

to the M.Sc. Internal Combustion Engineering course

at Guindy.

I see. For one and half years.

Went back to MIT and then I saw the advertisement for IIT

applied and came here. Ok,

that brings me to very interesting thing

you have been studying in Guindy Engineering College.

That’s correct.

And that means, you must have seen

the its ought to inauguration

the IIT Madras in 1959.

Yes, I saw that.

You mean the foundation stone ceremony I mean. Yes yes.

In between CLRI and IIT. I was not in IIT at that time,

but no it is outside. Outside yes.

And what I would like to know is

that you must have seen that gate.

It is a original gate of IIT Madras.

Yes. A single gate was there. That's correct.

Now we have got in gate and out gate

and do you have any photograph

or any rememberance of that gate?

I have remembrance, but that I don't have a photograph.

Ok. Because at that time I was in MIT.

Yeah. Just came across for the.

No this is I am talking of 1961.

61. Oh 61 yes.

61 also it was only a single gate.

Yeah single gate.

Because I joined in October.

Yes. You joined in what?

June-July. June-July ok.

So, the this gate was there up to 62

or something like that.

I remember that function, but

I don't have any idea. Yeah, that is one thing which

Heritage Centre was trying to find out

other thing which I want to know because it is

truly for heritage purposes

there was to be a lake.

Almost from the entrance

and going in front of the temple.

And then it was just

taking a turn at the shopping centre.

Yes. And going back to the lake

road or lake quick lake is there.

Very true.

Going further almost up to that this stadium.

Yes, yes.

And in fact, some time in the early 60s,

I remember there was boating was arranged.

Yes. As a this Professor Sengupto he was director

and boats were played for one day or two days

and it was a very big attraction. Yes.

So, you remember that? I remember that.

Yeah. And thereafter

they used to plant

Plantain trees all over

and the yield used to be distributed.

Yeah. Among. That's what;

that is what I was trying to tell

there was mango trees. Yes. Vegetable garden

all this from used

water. That's a sewage water. Used water.

So, we used to get it.

So, of course so, monkeys population.

Yeah. So, everything has been destroyed.

Had you anything do with NCC?

Not NCC. Ok,

but during the Indo-Chinese war in. Yes. In 1962. Yes.

We was in the same building you were called back by the.

Yes, I was called off.

You are called off for ground duty.

I was called off for a ground duty at a Kalaikoodam base.

I see I see. But then my marriage had been fixed

2 months later.

And so,

I told the air marshal

that it is happening

then he immediately posted me address the

Meenambakkam airport to be in charge of a troop loading.

I see. I had to remove all the seats and put the troops

count them and send them.

Were you again used in the Indo-Pakistan war?

No I was not in the Indo-Pakistan war. Ok.

Yes. By then. Yes.

Another thing I would like to know was

do you remember the consecration of the

Jalakanteshwara temple? Yes, I might remember

the Kanchi Shankaracharya had come there.

That is the time when I discussed with him

my intention to go to IIM Calcutta.

And he blessed me saying yes,

good idea you can go and come back he said.

To IIM I see. IIM Calcutta.

Oh that. During the Kumbabishekam.

I see I see. I met him.

No, but the Shankaracharya Shringeri had also come.

Yes. And do you remember who did that

I my remember is Y. S. Ramaswamy

did. Yes. They sat down. Yes. And did that. Correct. Ok

These are the information I just want to know because

there is nobody else to corroborate what I know.

You are correct I remember Y. S. Ramaswamy

which is dhoti and attires over. Yeah

And another thing which I tried to find out was

that see 1961 when I joined,

I was in Cauvery hostel.

Initially as a resident

then I was made a hostel warden.

62 beginning to 62 June

and then during that time

along with the PTI there.

I arranged a number of staff students sports.

Cricket and all that.

And I used to go in the evening

set up the whole thing and Natarajan the registrar

Yes. was very interested

his personal secretary Dubey

and actually we played the first match.

But there are no photographs of that. I see.

But the second match which was played,

there are photographs. I see. I got an album.

I see.

And I in that my colleague Professor Aravamudhan.

And as a technical assistant Venkatachalam. Yes.

They were both playing for the league. Yes. They also

for their team.

And Mr. Natarajan and Dubey were also there.

So, Y. S. Ramaswamy was not there

he played in the first match.

I see. I remember all this.

So, this is one thing which

I could not get corroboration so, what I wanted to ask

you for I would like to know during your

when you joined in 1961.

The English faculty who was the English faculty?

Professor Krishna Rao

then Professor Krishna Murty came

Dr. A. V. Krishna Rao.

A. V. Krishna Murty he joined later. Little later.

V. S. Kumar. V. S. Kumar was there yes

he was. Vishwanathan.

Vishwanathan yes. Vishwanathan V. S.

Kumar. Kumar was the everly bird.

Yeah, Krishnamurthy worked college. He used to

come. Krishna Rao joined a little later.

Yeah a little later V. S. Kumar was there. Yes.

Unfortunately, he is not well.

Because of that we could not call him. I see.

And you were teaching both in

mechanical and industrial engineering. That's correct,

in mechanical as well as here because

I initiated the IC Engines Laboratory.

I see. In 1961.

And at that time there was nobody to teach

the subject of meteorology.

So, I was asked to teach meteorology there.

Until they recruit to suitable professor

then its only in 1960 1961 6 65.

That I expressed my intention

to study industrial management in IIM Calcutta.

At that time Professor Sengupto was the director.

He had an intention of starting

masters course in industrial engineering and industrial management.

So, he readily agreed

to mine asked me to write the entrance examination

I wrote the entrance examination got the first rank.

So, the director of IIM Calcutta welcomed me

and I said I will go on leave

Professor Sengupto said no I will depute you with salary

provided you give a contract

to come and serve at least for 3 years. Yeah. In IIT.

So, it happened

and that's how I went to IIM Calcutta.

Professor R. K. Gupta.

Yes. Was a professor of management or?

Yeah, Professor R. K. Gupta was professor of management

Teaching financial management

and Dr. Anantha Raman was

professor of economics in the same department.

What about Professor Dutta who passed away?

He came in later on Professor Dutta.

What he what does he?

Industrial engineer.

Oh, he was industrial engineer.

Both me and Professor Dutta were

in charge of the industrial engineering section.

I see, what what other

branch I mean faculty were there I mean

was there sociology or philosophy?

Yes. History was there I remember.

History was there. Professor Narayana Pillai was there.

Narayana Pillai was there then

out of that we had a short person. Ramachandran.

Ramachandran that's correct. Ramachandran short person. Yeah,

Ramachandran was there. But sociology he was not there.

Sociology he was not there I has sociology,

but psychology was there

Govindarajan was teaching that psychology.

I see because I don't remember.

He used to teach sociology also

in addition to psychology.

There was a lady before.

Yes, one lady was there Philips.

No no that Elizabeth.

Elizbeth Kurian was there. She was a English.

So, there was somebody who was doing

a huge survey, sociology survey and all

like that was a. It could be Dr. Hamsaleelavathi.

Must be Hamsaleelavathi also. Yes,

correct. That I remember. Yes you're correct.

You see the it so, happened that

she was playing paying a

very little amount to the volunteers

who are going around doing survey.

But then I got the project rules.

That was not permitted I was sitting in there.

Oh I see. Yeah, I was sit

used to sell chairman for this.

That's how I know about it.

Now please tell me about your

contribution to IIT Madras.

In particularly the

as you said just now

started the. Yes. Internal combustion engineering. Yes,

the Internal Combustion Engineering laboratory

was initially set up by me

and later on of course,

we had a West German professor by named Dr. Stahl

who moved in 3 years later.

And he took up the

concert on the laboratory

and since I had done the M.S.c in internal combustion engineering,

I introduced a number of experiments

in the laboratory here

and since I was in the Air Force even then

I brought in a engine from HAL

for testing in our IC Engines Laboratory.

It really brought a lot of fame to our institute.

Because we are the first person

to test an aeronautical air aircraft engine

in our laboratory.

I see. And subsequently

the first batch of IIT students

when they came to the 3rd year,

I used to have a viva voce examination for the students

and I used to bring a lot of components old components

like carburetor,

fuel pump keep it on the table.

So, when each student comes

I used to ask them to pick up one of them

and say what is it,

what is it's function,

what is it made of and so on.

So, very soon news spread that I am adopting this technique.

So, all the students used to come to the

foreman of the laboratory Dr. Somashekar Mr. Somashekar

and learn from him

what are these components etc.

So, that they will do well in the viva voce.

I said that was my object to make them learn. Right.

So, it was a very interesting experience for me

to make them learn about all these things.

Yeah. In fact, that

that reminds me that German professor,

he was in early I don't remember who is the

Mr. Ebert,

but Professor Ebert was a only Yeah.

workshop superintendant.

Once the German professor told me when 59 or 60.

He used to when the first interview

B.Tech. interview he used to come

he used to keep screw driver, cutting plier

and things like ordinary tools. Yeah.

And he used to say many students had not even seen

Yes. such things.

So, you are. Yes. Something.

Dr. Scheer was there. Yeah. Initially.

Yeah. I had an interesting experience

when I joined Engineering College,

Dr. Paul was the principal.

He used to say what are a extra curricular activities,

the students use to say football cricket and all that.

So, he had a cricket bat hidden behind him.

If you see cricket I'm a champion and all that

he'll say come out to the open field

now are you a bowler or batsman now do it.

I see.

Very interesting like this.

And the Professor B. S. Murty

later took over and.

Yes, Professor B. S. Murty took over

that Professor Y. Srinivas (incoherent).

And quite a number of people he trained.

Interesting. Some of people got Ph.D. in.

Professor Gopalakrishnan.

Yeah.

good number of Professor Nagalingam

quite a few. Quite a few. I don't know

we are not in contact with. I see.

And with they all retried. They spread out and quite a few of them

went to U.S. also

B. S. Murty himself went to the U.S. for. But B. S. Murty

is no more rather there. Yes. He passed away last year.

So, 94. Yes yes yes.

But others

he was very enthusiastic.

So, that was,

but the combustion engineering came

at same time know.

Little later when M. C. Gupta came M. C. Gupta over and took over that.

Oh he.

Yeah of course, and Heitland.

Heitland was there.

Gupta was looking out of external combustion engineering.

Yeah. And Murty and me were looking out of

internal combustion engineering

and regarding your associates of the projects

Yeah. with the bachelor’s students and

M.Tech. students. Yeah. What about that

which field was you are doing it?

Was in industrial? Actually in

around 67 after my stint at IIM Calcutta,

I was taken to the Humanities and Social Sciences Department.

Where the M.Tech. courses in industrial engineering

and the M.Tech. course in industry management were host.

In fact, I asked Dr. Sengupto

is it not illogical to house them

engineering course in Humanities Department,

you should logically go to mechanical or some other department.

He had an explanation for that,

he said in today’s context

industrial engineering has got a lot of social sciences

content in that.

And if I put in a mechanical other department will

worry for that.

So, I put it in this department.

And of course, to some extent it was what he said was true.

Because management man management etc. Right.

You require a lot of so, social inputs economics

and finance and so,

Infact what I see from the

for the archival purposes

Yeah. And I went around the planning of the institute.

I find that they had planned industrial engineering

Yes. a very first this one.

Correct. In fact, they wanted

in the very first group of

people what we sent an scholarship to Germany.

Three people resourse sent in 1958 itself.

I see. So, very surprising. Very surprising. He was not done

they had given a lot of importance to

Yes. industrial engineering.

It has very much in Professor Sengupto's mind.

Yeah. And that is why when I said

I would like to go and study in IIM Calcutta

immediately said yes I will send you, but come back.

planning for very beginning. Yes.

And Germany at and German professor of course,

who had Professor Klein.

Professor Klein in Humanities Department.

And. And of course, Professor Stahl in IC engines

labority was there German professor.

I see. And. And

the Sharma was the Indian

equals German language. That's correct

yes that's correct Indian language Sharma yes.

And who else do you remember from those days Asthana.

Astana psychology. He was very young person.

He is young.

Astana and Govindarajan

psychology and related subjects. Oh, I see

was that. yes.

Were you in anyway connected with the

the warden or a any other

company? oh yes I was

when I returned from IIM Calcutta.

the then director Dr. Ramachandran

asked me to take over his warden of the Mandakini hostel

where first year students come in there.

He is first year.

He gave me reason.

Mandakini hostel. He gave me reason for that he said.

You are studied in management and industrial engineering

now you should be able to manage the first year students

where I get a lot of problems

many first year students when they come to IIT

they lose their bearings.

So, you have to take care of all that

and was a lot of anecdotes in Mandakini hostel

and in fact, one student lost his wrist watch

very costly wrist watch

and I was to investigate it.

So, I asked him a lot of questions I couldn't

finally, I said who was the last person to enter the room

how to reach or last it.

He named his colleague

who was the son of a governor of Reserve Bank in Sri Lanka.

He come on deputation.

I had felt it very delicate to ask him,

but still I called him

to the humanity through the.

Administrative block.

Security officer was sitting,

I said look there seems you some doubt

and are you aware of it he was hesitating

then I said the police are here

they would like to interview you,

but do why do you want all these things

if there is anything you can tell me now,

I will save you

he said yes sir I stole that book

which book I said the library book he said.

Oh I see.

So, then I said he must be the boy.

Then I said what about the wrist watch.

He hesitated. Yes sir, I stole the wrist watch

where is it I sold it

and got cash immediately I contacted his father

immediately he said don't spread this image

I will send the money I will reimburse the wrist watch.

The person who lost it

the person who lost the wrist watch

his father was Professor N. S. Ramaswamy

Director of NITIE at that time.

Oh I see.

So, he said Dr Ramani thank you very much

I got the money I to buying the very same watch and give it to my son.

Thank you, you were also a detective he said.

I see I did not.

Another incident is I don't know whether you remember

all the hostel cooks went on strike.

Strike that was in 1973.

73. That's what

another thing which more people don't know.

Yeah. I wanted to ask you about it.

It happened and then immediately

when the all the wardens in the wardens met the director

he said we should do something about it

we went to various hotels in Madras

collected whatever was available paying the cash and came back,

but then none of them would give receipts

regular receipts.

So, I told that director this is the problem.

We can overcome strike problem

by getting the food,

but we cant get receipts proper receipts

etc. they are not giving,

we told the accounts officer

please see that don't insist

on regular receipt the wardens are you must trust the wardens

and what receipt they give take it.

So, when after two or three days

the strike was called off and then

the accounts officer said where is the bill.

We gave him produced tits of paper

if you done we give it to the director

he said no I permitted that it was a emergency.

So, we cant give a regular bills and all that.

This was in 73. 73.

That means, it was Professor Pandalai or Professor Sampath

Ramachandran left around that time. Yes.

So, I think it was Pandalai. That was the second time

Second strike the first strike

was when I was in Mandakini Hostel 69.

69.

69 69 70 around that time. I see

I was very first year. I think I was

called for the I mean the Hostel Day.

Oh. Mandakini Hostel I remember right corner,

that it is the last hostel.

Exactly the last one very young. Last hostel

now there is I am told still that

next to that is the coconut ground.

The coconut ground is still there.

I see. Coconut trees are not been there.

I am not visited this. So, I don't know about this one

and that is the what about sports activities

and clubs and all that?

I used to be a regular visitor to the staff club.

Near the director's house there.

In fact, I remember Dr. Aravamudhan and me used to play chess.

Yeah, Krishna Rao

Aramadan was the good chess player.

Aramadan is a good chess player be besides being cricketeer and

sometimes we used to go very late at the night 9:30

and both his wife and my wife used to shout.

What about dinner?

I see.

I know you originally stayed in D block.

Yes. When I was. That's correct.

And then you moved into C 1.

C 1. Where did you moved into C 1? C 1 54

where Dr. Shankaran was there

civil engineering Shankaran.

Then Balraman Professor Balaraman was also staying there.

Then of course, we

I became a warden then I went to the warden’s quarters.

Then you came to Lake View Road.

No before Lake View Road there is another road there

similar to Lake View Road I forget the name.

I see. We were there for some time.

I see. And then I moved into Lake View Road.

B 5 Lake View Road. Yeah,

after you had left the block,

an old gentleman

with his daughter in law

ame to my house. I was not there.

To meet my mother in law.

And mother in law was a wife of a James,

but as I say Professor C. Somaiah.

And that old man was I think

was a junior or working with Professor Somaiah that's Mr. Somaiah.

So, my wife in the usual ways asked the lady;

So, what your husband doing? in Tamil of course. Yes.

And she hesitated and said

his name was Cho.

Cho. Cho that is the first time I came to know.

I see. About Cho Ramaswamy.

So, that he was your father in law. Yes.

And then of course, during

Professor Indiresan stand in the extra more lecturer. Yes, yes.

As I told you know the whole hall was full half an hour before. Yes, yes.

And it so, happened when I went after a class

I could get in the very first row a seat.

Then next to me sat

Shivaji Ganeshan's son in law Yes. Who is to

work in mechanical engineering. mechanical engineering. Narayana Swami.

That's correct.

And it so, happened his guide's wife.

Was V. Radha Krishna mechanical. His wife

came and sat on the floor.

So, he was feeling very delicate.

So, madam madam madam.

Then I said

she said no no no I am sitting with other ladies.

don't bother. So, beside there was it very.

Yes. Fully crowded in the. Yes

he was very popular He visit your house afterwards?

Yes yes.

After the lectures. Yes yes yes

of course, we meet each other, but

we don't talk much of politics now that we.

yeah. But he had a very good sense of humour

and he found in me also a person interest in humour.

So, the book when I published

Humour and Productivity, he got two sets of copies.

I see.

And he said whenever I go for a meeting or so,

I look into your book

to see whether there is any fresh joke I can quote from there.

I see I see.

Very interesting.

Could you say something about your work in NITIE?

Yes, when I went as a director of NITIE

and took over actually I was supposed to be relieved

from IIT Madras and

just before that I had enjoyed my sabbatical leave.

So, the registrar said

you have to serve for 3 years after your sabbatical leave.

So, only afterwards you can go to NITIE,

but then the then director Professor Indiresan said

after all NITIE is just like

IIT another institute under the same ministry

instead of working here he is

working there any how he is going to come back after 5 years,

but Sethunathan the then registrar would not agree.

He says the rules say this.

Follows, then I told Sethunathan you seem to be a pakka bureaucrat.

He he wouldn't budge from that then.

So, what he did was you convert all your

sabbatical leave

the salary which was paid to you must paid back and all that.

Professor Indiresan said sorry

when Sethunathan said sir I can't do much about it

even though I am on your side.

So, I met the then chairman of NITIE

and said this is what is happening,

he said no I want you here

what I will do is as a director of NITIE

I will allow you to do consultancy like faculty.

I see. You will get some more income.

So, you pay the money now and I can

compensate out of that he said.

Oh. that is how

I joined that was interesting and then when I joined

the faculty members are in only 32 in number

and there are not many research going on at that time.

So, I told the board

please I will introduce a lot of research courses

training programmes,

but I doubled the faculty I want

from 32 to 64 I made a calculate.

The chairman said we trust you we will give you,

but where will you get the faculty from?

I said leave that to me.

So, what I did was I used to visit IITs

IIMs etc. and people are about to be promoted, but

did not get the promotion some chance due to lack of

vacancies and all that I talk to them.

So, very soon

I recruited faculty from IITs IIMs etc.

In fact, later on when I visited IIM

they said Dr Ramani is coming be careful

take your faculty from here.

But I managed it and

the institute came up very well with lot of research and all that

and that is why after 5 years,

the ministry asked me to continue for a second 5 years

because I had. I see. Expanded the role of the institute.

I learnt a lot of things

academic administration from IIT Madras

and introduced the concept there.

Like the M.S. courses which we introduced here.

Like the introduced M.Tech.

I introduce the same concept there.

So, executive from industry used to come and do it M.S. course.

So, IIT experience helped me quite a bit in

academic administration.

And how many students took there

M.S. and Ph.D. here in IIT?

In IIT, under me I mean.

Under me at on the whole about 10 students one of them was

T. T Narendran who

became a dean and all that. Yeah. That he

he my M.S. research scholar actually.

So, nearly 10 students underwent their M.S. course under me.

one is Vijay Kumar who is now senior associate in MIT

you see. Oh I see.

And then Varadarajan,

University of Texas and things like that. I see.

Many of them are now in the U.S.

You have done a lot of work on disaster management.

That's correct.

And you know somewhere around the 92 or so.

The final Finance Minister Manmohan Singh Yeah.

introduced Technology Mission Project. That's correct.

And the one of the Technology Mission Projects

given to IIT Madras and IIT Bombay

was Disaster Management. Yeah. Because

they both clone to cyclones and Yes. floods and all.

So, is it the reason why NITIE got

involved and you got involved in this?

Actually, a I got IIT Madras involved in 1982.

When the Divi Cyclone happened in Andra Pradesh

more than 3000 people are killed.

At Guntur. Guntur.

So, the late Dr. Naidu was said

called a meeting of a faculty and then said

you are all scientists and professors,

you must do something about it to solve this problem.

Otherwise the nation will lose its credibility in scientists

and engineers. I put my hand up and said I can simulate

for a cyclone and train people to handle cyclones.

He said what does it mean?

I said you cannot create a war

to train our soldiers and journals to fight a war.

You are to go away with simulation. Similarly

you can simulate for a disaster and train. He agreed

and recommended to the Tamilnadu Government.

At that time the late Dr. M. G. Ramachandran was Chief Minister

in Tamil Nadu.

Occasionally he used to come to the IIT guest house and dispose files

because a very quiet place for him.

So, he called me suddenly in from the department

I met him he said

I got a recommendation

since you are going to do in disaster management,

I give you one and half lakhs of rupees,

how long will it take to do it?

I said I will take in 6 months, I will be able to do it

and finish it. Will you be able to train our collectors and others?

I said yes.

So, he sent one and half lakhs of rupees the very next day

we got it and I started my programme here

for and then at the end of it is a simulator

it is called Sim Clone.

Simulated cyclone and there was a

technical officer from World Meteorological Organisation

who was an observer in my programme here.

So, he recommended

for a small grant from the World Meteorological Organisation.

At the end of the 3 day programme

I trained about 20 district collectors,

two senior officers from Army

and two senior officers from the Police Department.

They all recorded its a very useful simulator

they learned a lot of things

which they could not have learned in real life

and recommended it should become a

standing training tool

for senior people in government

who are who have to take decisions

in disasters management etc.

It was very interesting

and that is where IIT started its the first

work in disaster management.

The simulator was a real known it is called Sim Clone

and based on that the

Virginia University in USA

is now bringing out 5 volumes on disaster management

only through case studies

and I present is case is accepted.

It is being printed by the LCL press

will come out shortly in a couple of months.

I see. So, that is how we initiated this.

Later on we got a circle from UGC saying

who is it disaster management is not being

taught in any of the management institutes?

You were teaching so much of management and all that

the answer was

if you study disaster management you will get

jobs in only in government,

but our boys want to go to private institutes and all that

and he recommended institutes

to introduce at least one course in disaster management

and very recently

it has made a compulsory subject in geography

for CBSE schools. 10, 11 and 12

NCRT has written books also compulsory

disaster. I see. To

To make them sort of sensitized to

disaster management, safety

and things like that yes flood control.

Mine was on cyclone

that's why I call Simulated Cyclone

Sim Clone it was called. I presented a paper in the

U.S. on that on that basis, I was made the Asian vice president

of the International Society for Emergency Management.

They liked the simulator very much.

I see. And even now I am

I went to NITIE and pursued that.

One or two doctor students came out

in this subject disaster management.

So, I am even though it is not very popular

in education institutes the disaster management

it is very useful for the government to do it.

See when the

Technology Mission Projects were introduced

it was told the user should

contribute at least 50 percent of the project. Yes.

So, as I remember there was

some faculty in the Civil Engineer Department here Yes.

who went to Cuddalore and Nagapattinam?

They tried to

set up I don't think it was simulator I don't know.

They collected lot of data.

And then finally,

they put them in together.

And how to manage this and all that they went to

meet one of the ministers.

And they had a very bad experience.

So, that was during the

90s. 90s. 90s 95.

So, they they were very disappointed

because it so, happened that I was sitting in the. Yeah.

project staff. Yeah.

Election all that and I felt that something which

with the government you see it was the other way around.

The government the Minister Secretary's

PA etc. was

how much will the government get?

So, the government

giving the money to all of us.

So, that was the status. That was the status. Of the Tamilnadu government.

So, I am sorry to.

No no I understand that. Include this in a interview.

That another interesting experience was

Professor Sampath then deputy director.

Yeah. He initiated what it is called

interdisciplinary research in IIT Madras.

A very nice concept

he said faculty members can go outside the department

collaborate other departments

do joint projects research projects.

Yeah, that is that continues.

He did it in a very big style.

In fact, after that

I joined hands with the Applied Mechanics Department

Professor B. V. Rao was there.

We started a M.Tech. course

on maintenance engineering and maintenance management.

Yeah, that's I think I remember.

It was very successful

my boys got very good jobs after that

then I had a collaborate in Civil Engineering Department

Professor H. Raman and myself we were asked to find out

what should be the optimal length of the outer arm

or the outer harbor in Madras,

where all ships can come and all that.

He did the simulation of a dam constructor small model.

I did the management simulation

together we got it published also

and the Madras porters also congratulated us because

they use our information

for deciding the optimal length of the outer wall.

So, it is all started because of the

interdisciplinary movement which was encouraged.

They even said we will give you joint apartments

within a same two departments

you can be professor in two departments and all that.

Similarly, there are other things in Mathematics Department

we collaborated for simulation.

I collaborate with the Chemistry Department your department.

With Professor M. V. C. Sastri.

He got a project from Department of Science and Technology.

Hydrogen energy. Hydrogen energy.

So, I did the management aspect the forecasting technological forecasting.

the last of the volumes was I have done

done by me.

I see I knew that you are. Yes.

Connected with the hydrogen energy. Yes.

Because we did on the on the

storage of hydrogen. Storage of hydrogen

yes merchant hydrogen. Yeah. And things like that.

In fact,

it so, happened that sometime in 90

the there was

three or four groups working on the hydrogen energy

in India. Yes.

And Department of Navy Yeah.

in Washington. They seem to have seen and finally,

pointed out the work done by

the group of involved me and Professor V. Srinivasan.

I see. And B. Vishwanathan

and then they contacted me and

then one of the scientists from there came and said

can you take it up?

I see. So, on our side we will provide what.

So, the idea was

to have a hydrogen storage

Correct. installed in a submarine. Yes.

So, they they asked me whether I could spend one year.

In U.S. I see. Working on and it was

something where which I could not do.

So, I had to transfer a project to an industry.

I see.

Were that is fix science foundation. I see.

Because we were working on

at installing a hydrogen energy.

Ok.

I mean the whole manifold everything there.

Yes. And they are started some work. I see.

So, I think somehow

the Central Government you know

there was Ministry of

Nonconventional Energy Ministry of something else.

Yes. So, environment. Yes.

So, all the confusion finally.

I see. A project was never given

other wise we would have

made use of the hydrogen. I see.

I remember in this project

based on the work which I had done

I present a paper in the World Hydrogen Energy Conference.

At Stuttgart.

They had exhibited a car

in the conference. Yes,

yes. Running out of hydrogen in the fuel

the exhaust was nothing but a

few drops of water that was exhausted

non polluting all that. If they have even

own plane. Yes yes. Germany.

Very interesting. But some how whether it is

because in the space side it is different thing. Yeah.

Liquid hydrogen liquid oxygen. Yes. Being used all

this quite something else.

Our projection indicated by 2025.

The main hydrogen will be the main carrier of energy.

And not the electrical wires

and so on that is the prediction 2025.

Now I will go back to something.

See you said you were in MIT.

That's correct. 56 to 61. 61.

Was President Kalam was a student there? Yeah,

President Kalam just finished when I entered.

Yeah. It is a very interesting anecdote.

After some years we were in a plane

and we were reminiscing

we were standing in the aile and talking

the air hostess came and said look gentlemen

please sit down give you a way for others.

Then I said see please sit down he said no you sit down

I said no no you sit down.

He said look when I was a student you were a lecturer.

I see. So, you must sit down first he said I

still remember that

the way he said that. Did you keep in touch with him? Yes,

but not when he became president it was

very difficult for access and all. No no no not president.

In fact, he called me for DRDO where he was

heading there. Exactly

thats why. And asked me to give lectures on project management

and my very first lecture

he said sat through the entire lecture one and half hours.

I see. To see what was he

because I did a lot of work on project management

computerizing that

and probabilistic aspects and all that.

So, he appreciated that very much.

Was Professor Pandalai was teaching at that time?

Yes, Pandalai was an MIT Chromepet we were colleagues.

I see. And he was in aeronautical engineering.

And glider was being built at that time

by Dr. Repenthin who came from West Germany.

And I used to associate myself with that also.

So, when Dr. Pandalai came to IIT Madras as a director

he was asking me to continue their work.

He came as a professor first.

Yeah professor first. Yeah.

Then he became. Then he became director.

But then I said I am in little away from

aeronautical engineering air force

and. I see. All that that is more on maintenance management,

but one thing when when I was in the Humanities Department

for the M.Tech. courses in

industrial engineering industry management

one of my strategies was to have a very close association

with the professional associations

which were connect 4 professional associations.

Madras Management Association,

Indian Institute of Industrial Engineering,

Indian Institute of Materials Management.

Indian Institute of Plant Engineering so on.

So, it was the students also I made them

you go for meetings with this association etc.

It was very easy for me to get them projects

in industries because of this association.

It was very very useful there.

So, the I kept very close

in the professional associations and industries

that help me a lot in placing that.

You say that you are still keeping busy.

Yes. And one of the things I notice is

that you are connect with the State Bank of India

as a director.

Yes, I was elected as the

director to the Central Board of State Bank of India 3 times.

For 9 years

and one cannot be elected more than 3 times

thats why they let me go.

What was when was it that was in 2003, 2013? 13.

Oh very recently.

What was your experience like there?

First of all I learned a lot about

major projects going on in India.

Secondly, I was made the chairman of the Technology Committee.

To introduce core bankings.

I see. That was a very good experience for me

and I asked them to initiate a research on

early warning forecasting

of non performing asset.

I said you come to know only after

the financial figures are analyzed,

but I being a technological man I can tell you

much before that you can sense that it is going to fail.

By studying technological factors

like a delays in supplies

and too much inventory in the

in process inventory factors like this

you take and do research

and have a early warning forecast

they asked me to do research in that,

but it was too late at then after I left

State Bank of India,

I record an association or an institute

through which I could have done this being.

In fact, your Ph.D. was on

stochastic process on event.

My Ph.D. was stochastic process of at inventory control

Dr. S. K. Shrinivasan.

Yeah. Was my guide.

One interesting thing happened

when he was to be awarded the Ph.D. degree,

the Mechanical Department claimed that

it should be in their department.

The Humanities Department said

it should be in our department he is working here,

the Mathematics Department said

the guide is in Mathematics Department.

So, you should get then finally, I said

you are not ask the candidate

you all discussing myself

finally, they gave me the Ph.D.

from Mechanical Engineering Department.

Yeah, I saw that because Professor

Shrinivasan I written monograph on stochastic process.

Yes, along with the Richard Bellman

he is collaborated come with the two very good books also. Yeah

And you have written book along with Nagarajan.

Yes, what happened when I returned from IIM Calcutta.

That was a time when Professor Sampath brought a 370 computer

into IIT Madras.

When we were teaching computer programming

we found it very difficult to

correct the answer papers of students

because they have got their own logic,

you have to read that logic and then

find out what mistake they made.

So, the three of us Koteshwar Rao from Mathematics Department

Nagarajan from Chemical Engineering Department myself

joined together and wrote a book on Fortran Programming.

Oh Fortran Programming.

Yeah. I see.

With the industrial engineering application.

So, and

the Anna University prescribed it as a textbook also.

Oh I see. Yes.

Because Nagarajan who was in chemical engineering finally,

he ended in.

Computer engineering. Computer engineering and

retired as a professor. That's true.

Are you in touch with Nagarajan? Yes, he is.

He is not well. He is not well

I have met him at Alandur more also

he lost his wife is you know that.

He was in Thiruvanmiyur know.

Yeah and then he moved over to Alandur.

Yeah stayed with some one. I met him about a couple of months back.

Oh I see. He just rang me and

said why don't we meet

so. Yeah that's you you were thinking of inviting him.

Yes. I have said that

according to me he was not well.

So, I don't know. But he is talking now

not well in the sense, if you send a car he will come.

In fact, he came to my residence one day and.

Oh very good.

We had a chat for more than two hours

reminiscing how we wrote the book on

computer programming. That's exactly the reason

because he is one of those

was in the early years. Yes and he used to

ascribe to me.

He is going to the Computer Department.

I I did not want to go to the Computer Department.

It was very interesting.

Yeah. When I went to Indian Institute of Management Calcutta

for the 2 year programme,

I was made the president of the students association there.

And the institute wanted to

change the grading system retrospectively.

Students said no we will go on strike

then the then director called me and said

Dr. Ramani you are from IIT Madras you are a faculty,

you must tell the students not to strike that's not good.

I said you taught a subject called role playing.

There in IIT I played the role of a faculty

here I am playing the role of a student.

So, I have to fulfill this role.

I see. Finally, they gave in to the students and all that very interesting.

And there was a editorial committee.

He published wanted to publish an article derogatory about the institute.

I said no.

They said you may be president,

but the editorial committee is independent of you.

They printed everything

it was supposed to be distributed the next day

it was kept in the directors office.

I went to the director's residence in the night

said give me the key

with a few students I went to his office

tore off those pages which

contained the derogatory article and kept it there.

The next day they founded the article was not there.

The editor said it is my prerogative to

choose articles,

I said it is my prerogative to.

To keep it there or not.

Very interesting.

With the result ultimately

I got the Best Student Award from IIM Calcutta

Memorial Award

because there are many interesting anecdotes in IIT itself.

We had a Centre for Rural Development in.

Yeah. Narayanapuram. Correct.

I was actively associated with that.

I developed a project called

Generation of Electricity in Villages Using Bullock.

Dr. Radha Krishna was in charge of that. I know.

And I presented one paper through costed

in Bangkok Air India Technology

and one in Colombo Sri Lanka imperial.

So, when I left IIT and went to NITIE I pursued this

I made a prototype

of generation of the electricity in villages using bullocks,

the then Prime Minister Dr. Chandrasheker

was keen he asked us a demonstrate in Delhi.

So, we went and demonstrated to him.

And he liked it so much

he said leave the machine here would get another one done for you.

Then when I came back

Professor Narasimha Rao visited our institute

for delivering the convocation.

He showed the project he appreciated.

Then we brought it to Madras Dr. M. S. Swaminathan.

He saw this and said Ramani is a very good idea,

pursue it.

I said I require funding for this

this is not possible to pursue this project,

but after now I am thinking of revising it

along with some other rural projects

and I am approaching some agencies for that

to give the idea.

For there is some

wheel I mean movement to the bullock cart.

Yes, we have a gearbox.

I see. And a generator.

So, the slow speed is converted to higher speed.

Oh I see. And then I had kept TV,

wet Grinder and all that.

I see. This was charging them.

So, that's how the

Prime Minister was very much interested in that. Yeah yeah.

And he said we have to develop villages

and these sort of things are very useful.

You pursue that he said

and what happened was subsequently

though I have some more ideas about it,

I require a institutional support for that

it is an individually the huge project to do. Yes.

But I got the ideas I am thinking of publishing in newspaper

So that it will attract attention.

Now with the cow protection and all that

I said you show the picture of Lord Krishna with cows.

what about the bullocks they said.

I have not got a good answer so,

so far it. Yeah. Bullocks are also very useful.

Yes. And with the organic manure

now our the. Yeah, organic product. Yeah with organic product

it will be very useful I am making a study of that even now.

Yeah the only thing is that

the manure produces methane.

Methane is supposed to be a green house gas. Yeah.

So, methane the half life period of methane.

Much more than carbon dioxide. Yes.

So, accumulation methane in stratosphere

Is going to.

In a long term point of view, yes.

Long time I think a problem for this.

But the gobar gas which you get out of it.

Yeah. It is 250 percent enriched when you give the gobar gas. Yes.

You can use for manures.

Yeah. And gobar gas can be used for heating and all that. Yes,

that's correct. But what you say now I think

from the point of the environment

I think that to the negative point.

Ok one thing I wanted to ask you.

Was Professor Anantha Raman. Yeah. And you.

Will you exchanging jokes or a sort of

whenever there were going to a staff meeting and all that

there use to be a sort of tit for tat.

Yeah, that I the reason for that is.

In a Humanities and Social Sciences Department

there was a divide between the engineers and the non-engineers. I see.

And because of that Dr. Anantha Raman was in the economics

non Engineering side I was in the engineering side.

So, we formed a group.

There used to be a lot of.

Now in fact, even in

the students were present.

It was they used to enjoy very much. Yes.

it so, happened that 87 or something like that.

Myself, Kuriakose and Professor Shrinivasan,

we caught the Coromandel Express at Buvaneshwara at night

11:45. I see.

Do the train comes from Calcutta.

It was boarded to time.

So, there was a co-passenger with me.

Who was working with Hindustan Zinc.

He passed out of

he passed out of IIT Madras.

M.S. or M.Tech.

I don't remember him he is of from this place only. I see.

And he told me next morning,

he said that we use to enjoy that.

With Professor Ramani and Professor Anantha Raman.

So, but he would say and immediately he would. Yes yes,

yes I used to say

industrial engineering should be out of humanities.

They they are not compatible with each other.

He said no we want you here because

we will get more funding for our department.

Now another thing I want to ask is

did Subramanya Swamy,

during the emergency period,

come to a Humanities?

C. Subramanya Swamy.

is the very delicate point. No yes, but.

No I will tell you why I am asking you this question,

because I in 82 December.

I was in IIT Kanpur

to set a question paper

of the. And there was a paper setter from IIT Delhi.

English paper setter

Professor Krishna Rao had come with me. Yeah.

And one Upadhyaya.

And he was arrested during the emergency.

Yes.

And he was talking about the emergency

Congress government and all that

and then he mentioned that

he put him in the train

in Delhi

and Subramanya Swamy being put a Punjabi.

Yes. Except that

Subramanya Swamy could not speak Punjabi.

Yes. So, he seems to have asked how

somebody talks in what shall I do?

But immediately after the train left

somehow they saw this

Upadhyaya there and they knew

they were searching for Subramanya Swamy

and then they arrested Upadhyaya.

Yeah. But what happened what I learnt was

Subramanya Swamy arrived stayed in IIT campus,

visited the Humanities Department.

Spent some time, gave a lecture,

had a discussion with the Anantha Raman.

Yes, I don't know. And was it true.

Yeah. Because later

Professor Pandalai seems to have received a letter from the

Prime Minister's Office. I see.

Yeah, this was this was that is what

Upadhyaya told me about he is coming to IIT Madras.

I see. But then I had heard about it

because the that

spread from the director’s office. I see

I don't remember,

but I can tell you another anecdote

he was invited for a dinner by Cho Ramaswamy

where I was also invited.

He was running a management school in Cochin,

he said Dr. Ramani why don't you join our board of governors there

then next day I wrote a letter him saying look

I don't want to be involved

in highly political

type of situation. Yeah because these is semi political

all that yes. Yes, something. Yes yes, but

I did not want to involve.

I knew about what he did in when he was

in IIT Delhi as a professor. I didn't know, but

He was in IIT Delhi I know.

He was union leader there.

Yeah, I know about it. Yeah.

But IIT Delhi has been in the

staff union and all that. Yeah.

For quite a long time. True.

And 98th JEE

I was the organizing chairman

And the results set were postponed by 10 days.

Because the all the

the pay commission scales were not implemented.

And so, the all the IITs struck one.

But then IIT Madras

and IIT Delhi did not join.

But Bombay and Kharagpur were very militant.

IIT Kanpur went on another way there. Yes yes,

I remember that. So,

we had a I had a lot of problem

Professor Shrinath was very angry with me,

but I couldn't do

and I told him that you have no voice in this

Yeah. because I am the organizing chairman

my word is has to taken and he agreed to that.

Finally, we did conduct.

I mean 10 days later we announced

We announced the result everything else was normalised.

At that time

when he was supposed to

visited our Humanities Department

he was not so, much a known

as he is now.

So, it must have

passed off without much notice from my side

that's what I thought.

No no no in 88. 88 You was not there.

I was not there. I was not there that's why. Not the I am only telling right.

No. No no I was responsible for another thing.

Which because still 87.

We used to have a paper in English.

So, 87

I conveyed to the directors all the IIT

that most of the students who get into IITs.

Now all they good in English.

True, very true.

So, therefore, there is no use in wasting

money as printing and setting a question paper in English,

but we will drop it.

So, they all agreed unanimously .

But unfortunately very next day

when the so, the meeting was held here and

everybody went back for the.

Next day at Times of India in Bombay

brought out center page saying

that the this is the background sorry back.

Back door.

Yeah back door.

For introducing Hindi.

In JEE and exactly that's what happened after the. I see.

That is how the

question papers started getting printed in Hindi.

Oh I see.

And initially it is for example,

we were having answering in

other languages

its like Kannada.

Yeah ok. Tamil

and there were very few.

Tamil was quite a number.

But then now it is only Hindi and English. Yeah.

But anyway it was a big

I start regretting later.

For was the it was a correct thing that was done. Yeah.

Because I have English being an international language,

that should have been. True.

But your statement is correct.

Generally, IIT students

don't require that

English language course. Except the

Except the back. Backwards. Backwards.

For them could be a special course. Yeah,

for them it is it is given.

Very true that's very true. We had very good lecturer.

That's true.

Because for those students,

I have also taught chemistry in a

for 1 year for a. I see. 2 year like that.

And professional English is something

which is possibly will be important.

For the IIT students. That's true.

Because IIT Kanpur introduced this.

My son in law was the person who started.

I see. Professional English course there.

I see. Professor Dhande

was the director,

he wanted my son in law who is a

professional English lecturer,

to start a professional English course. I see.

And he it has been running now.

The past 9, 8, 10 years now.

I see to reconnect myself to IIT Madras,

I had one proposal

which I am going to talk to the Rural Department

that I already told them about it.

And I started a course on entrepreneurship

Yes. when I was in Bombay

and the Government of India had said

that it is impossible for the government to provide

jobs for all the unemployed people.

So, entrepreneurship should come in a big way.

People should be as a self employed and become

small scale entrepreneurs

gradually they can become bigger entrepreneurs and all that.

So, I was taken as a member of the National Entrepreneurship Board

and then we talked about innovation, entrepreneurship and so on.

I designed the course there.

So, when I left NITIE and came back to Madras,

I was adviser to a number of universities here.

So, I initiated entrepreneurship course

and innovation courses. I myself

in order to show an example,

I invited a machine

called the non-electric manually operated closed washing machine.

It became a success

and the Government of India choose mine among 10 projects

giving me a grant on that also

and I thought I should also discuss with the Rural

Department in IIT Madras

to take it forward.

In fact,

out of 7 billion population in the world,

hardly 2 billion have got access to the electrical machines.

The remaining 5 billion do it by hand

including the developing countries Africa etc.

There were attempts in the last 60 70 years

to develop a non-electric machine,

they tried the cycle attach drum and all that

all of them are commercial failures

because they are trying to imitate the electrical machine

and its not possible to do.

So, I thought it differently,

did some lateral thinking

brought a reciprocating motion

to mimic the hand washing of clothes.

It was successful I have distributed villages and all that.

So, I am of thinking reconnecting myself to IIT

through this project

which can be profitably taken up by IIT Madras

because the demand will be phenomenal all over the world.

So, this is my while present this diagram to you

and if you like to do that.

Simulator you were talking of. Yes.

Sim Clone now it has something to do with

satellite this one all that

or. No not satellite.

It was done in IIT Madras in 1982

in my department.

So, what I did was,

I wrote a computer programme

to simulate the decisions which are taken

before during and after a cyclone.

I see.

Then I got the data from the

Directorate of Town Planning

from Madras, we had

data for the last more than 60 70 years.

Oh I see.

I collected that and built it into this one

and the district collectors who were trained for 3 days on this one

they felt it was very useful

and they gave some examples of that.

When the computer said there is a lot of a

heavy cyclone lot of water stagnatic and all that

some villages are marooned,

the district collector said we want a helicopter

to survey the computer said no helicopter no helicopter. Oh I see.

So, in a final session they said your computer is not responding.

I said at that time there was no helicopter base in Madras

nearest one was Cochin or Hyderabad.

Yo did not know it.

So, if you have done this mistake in real life

it have been very bad.

So, they appreciated that.

Similarly many things were simulated in the Sim Clone

and one observer for the Sim Clone

Dr. Southern he came from Australia.

He is a senior technical officer

at World Meteorological Organisation.

He happened to pass by he attended my

seminar workshop.

Then he said finally

he got a report

about this Sim Clone

in the World Meteorological Organisation.

It is a two page report

where he said

nobody has done this type of operational simulator.

I congratulate IIT Madras for having taken to this subject

and he gave a small donation a few dollars

to encourage one of the students to do research

further research in this area.

It was very interesting.

I can pass on the write up to you

about the World Meteorological Organisation.

And subsequently it gained a lot of interest

I was presenting this paper in USA

and in the International Society for Emergency Management.

Based on this

I was made the Asian vice president

of the International Society for Emergency Management

to spread it across in this area.

And subsequently

I went to myself under research scholar

where I ask given an assignment in Bhopal,

Madhya Pradesh on Gandhi Sagar Dam.

So, I went there and did a simulated model for that

and showed that if they dued a simulator

for their flood forecasting and routing

they will save nearly

nearly about 18 to 20 crores of electricity in those days.

Because you can stock more water

for the same risk which they are taking

it got reported extensively in the Times of India and so on.

I still feel this has to be taken very seriously

by our National Disaster Management authorities.

I am trying to give it to them.

In fact, Tata consulted service is very interested in this.

They said can you

train a group of our executives

we would like to do this project for Government of India

because every disaster

reduces the wealth of a nation.

Naturally. What ever development part of development it is,

Exactly. is arrested because of this. Exactly.

And I. So, I did what is called

a computer simulated for flood coasting

flood forecasting and routing.

Recently there was a the big cyclone here the Vardha.

Yeah. So, I wrote a article

in the Times of India 2 days later

on how this model could have been used

to forecast the cyclone earlier.

You could have prevented most of the restriction and all that.

How can you prevent?

By forecasting you get 6 to 8 hours

advance warning that is coming.

These are called golden hours golden period. Right.

During that time you take decisions on people etc.

These golden hours.

But I don't think with there was

a lot of human this one,

but we had only

lot of trees for all days. No no no there were several deaths.

At least I as far as I know

There were 60 to 70 deaths.

Near the. In Chennai and suburbs and all that. I see I see. Yes yeah.

Those those things can be avoided. Avoided.

I see. That the warning you get even cyclone

normally because of the radar

and and the satellite communication

today you can get clear 3 hours warning

you know where is the cyclone going to strike. Right.

With the plus or minus 100 feet also.

So, that 3 hours

you can take you can transport the population. That is correct that's correct.

Similarly, for flood.

No no cyclone shelters were. Yes.

Granted by Government of India. Yes yes. It was built. Yes yes.

I don't know whether they still exist.

I can tell you anecdote about this.

When I gave the training on Sim Clone for the district collectors,

they found most of the shelters

were being used for other purposes

and none of the people use the shelter.

In fact, some of the fisher folk on the coast

refused to go away

when the cyclone warning came

because they say you have got some cows and calfs

that's a property when you come back it will be lost and all that.

Yeah. So, the College of Engineering Guindy did a research

came out of the red ball with the stem

if the cyclone velocity goes up beyond about

35 miles per hour or so,

it will break and the red ball will be distributed

and people run away.

But what had happened was

when the red ball was exposed people broke it and took it away.

It was not there.

So, I told the Engineering College researchers, look

you are good engineers,

but you forgot to take care of the

social aspects and the humanitarian aspects.

People's behaviour during emergency

is very different from the normal behaviour.

I see. In a cinema theatre exit when there is a fire

everyone tries to rush and

they would not allow people to other people to rush through also.

There is a that.

So, that small door is not enough for emergency.

So, the behaviour of people during emergency as we studied

and built in the design of our

structures like cyclone shelters and so on. I see I see.

That 's where in the social sciences engineering come together

they have to interact together

for design.

So, lot of lessons we learned from Sim Clone

which was very much appreciated

when I present this paper in USA,

they said this type of operator simulator we have not yet designed

and they were very interested in that and I

recently also I represent a paper in Denver, Colorado

on Sim Clone.

Along with a training tool called didactic simulation

which I have developed.

For training executives a new one

which I think very soon I will be

publishing about this also.

But IIT Madras gave me a lot of

facilities and motivation

for me to choose whatever research project I liked

and this freedom

is I think one of my greatest lessons

we have learnt from IIT Madras.

Yeah that's correct that's correct.

Nice. It should continue and that is continuing. Yes,

that's how I choose the Sim Clone project

they let me go they said do go about it. Yeah.

So, thank you Professor Ramani.

Thank you thank you so much. Yeah.

I really enjoyed talking to you. Thank you.

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Prof. C.S. Swamy in conversation with Prof. B. Viswanathan

I would like to know, where you are born?

When you are born and about your schooling?

Ok, I was born in 1941

in a small village called Kuthanoor,

where the only...the Goddess Saraswathi's

temple is there in India.

This is in in the in the erstwhile Tanjore district.

But my father was living in a village

called Nachiyar Kovil, this is very near to Kumbakonam.

I studied all my school education in Nachiyar Kovil.

And then, from that I...went to Saint Joseph’s College, Trichy,

I did the M. Sc. up to that M. Sc.

I did in Saint Joseph’s College, Trichy. And then.

Then the Ph. D. in IIT. Yeah, yeah

See, the Saint Joseph’s College,

were you staying in a hostel or in? Yeah,

that is the...in those days, there were two hostels,

Clive’s Hostel and New Hostel.

Yes, yes. Clive’s Hostel is famous, and I was living in a room

called 93 because, 93 is traditionally

all my family members have lived there. I see.

My...my uncle is a Professor in Saint Joseph’s College,

he also studied in Saint Joseph’s College. Nice.

So, that is...the how, we came...and my brother also studied. Yeah.

In Saint Joseph’s in...he stayed in the same room,

I also stayed in the same room. Yeah,

now I...I want to share with you something,

since he told about Saint Joseph’s College.

Now, he joined the IIT Madras as a research scholar

in 1964, and since then,

I have almost treated him as an younger brother,

and I have never called him by his name,

as just now Kumaran mentioned,

he was known as B. V., than B. Viswanathan,

even for students and colleagues and others,

and he mentioned about Saint Joseph’s College.

And then in '65, this is an anecdote,

I was going on...I was on my way to Palani

along with my wife and small daughter 2 years

and then on this...day before I had to leave Trichy,

I was staying very near Saint Joseph’s College,

I entered Saint Joseph’s College's compound

and it was Christmas time. I was just walking

and there was reflection of sunlight

on the second floor or so, some labs,

but then I thought it was some light burning

in some place, and I just showed

and then commented to my wife,

"I think that must be the Chemistry library or

Chemistry Department."

And then I didnt see that in front of me,

two fathers were coming,

a one of them happened to be the Principal,

Father Casimir, and another was an American guest,

another father, who had come for the Christmas,

and immediately, Professor Casimir suddenly said,

"You were pointing out there,

are you somebody connected with this college?

Then, I told him, "No,

but one of our very good students who works in my...

our laboratory Viswanathan has studied here,

and so I was just telling my wife...it may be."

Then, you know it was surprising

he said, "Please wait for two minutes,"

he just walked up to the fathers lodge,

left that Am...guest there,

asked somebody to provide him the keys

for the Chemistry Department.

He walked with me family,

opened all the labs,

opened the library, and said,

"This is a place where B. Viswanathan used to

spend his time reading, reading,

till I come and tell him go home and sleep,

go to the room and sleep." He used to

study for a long time and all.

I can never forget two things:

one, about the impression he had

created at Saint Joseph’s College.

Next, a head of an institution,

just for the sake of a guest

who was walking in the compound,

opening the department. I mean he felt so

proud of his department, so proud of his

college, somebody was talking about it.

And if I remember right, Father Casimir was a

classmate of Professor Kuriacose,

one of my colleagues in Loyola College

here in Nungambakkam,

and later I think he became the Archbishop of Mylapore.

So, I don’t know whether he still there,

he was a Chemistry. Yeah,

then he was an Archbishop and he used

to come to IIT for walking in the morning.

And he will definitely drop in in my house. Right,

You were a campus resident? Yes, at that time

at that time I have become a faculty member. Yeah.

So, therefore, I was in campus resident.

You were in wardens quarters? No, no I was in...D

now...old Canara Bank, D-2 Oh, I see...I see, oh you were in that Adyar Avenue

Adyar Avenue, yeah, you were

most of the time, you were in the hostel.

So, you first of course, as a student

stayed in the Cauvery Hostel

and then I think as a warden,

you must have stayed in several hostels. Yeah, yeah nearly 30 years

I was spending in hostels. Yeah,

that’s why you have been a Chairman Council of Wardens. Yes,

all...all the post.

Ok, now I just want to go back to the remembrance.

So when you joined in 1964,

you were along with three other research scholars,

do you remember? Yeah yeah, Swaminathan and Kannan.

No, no

I think now I will try to correct you.

Swaminathan and Jain.

Jain is one year senior to me. Oh, I see oh.

Kannan...Kannan is my classmate, I mean. Oh.

Joined in the same year. I see.

See, Jain is senior to me. When did he join then?

He joined in few months . '63, '63 December,

I joined in '64, July. Yeah yeah yeah yeah, I see oh, then Udupa?

Udupa also...he is senior to me. I see.

By few months. Oh Kannan, Swaminathan.

Yes. And and I think the...

those who did M. Sc., that is Santhanam and then

Venkappayya became research scholars. All of them are juniors to me.

They they joined after some time. Now,

Professor Viswanathan, when he started his research work,

I think 3 or 4 of us, including Professor Sastry,

Head of the Department, V. Srinivasan, myself

we had only one lab, because we didn't have much space,

And then I assisted him in building up the Adsorption Laboratory.

I was not...I had not built a...a unit, adsorption unit

when I did my Ph. D.

So, that too on a slotted angle frame

it was a lot of difficulty,

and then myself and Professor V. Srinivasan,

use our experience of working with

a glass blowing torch.

So, in fact, we had to make position joints and all that,

and the whole frame when we made,

we don’t have even a photograph of that now,

and we had to put wooden pieces behind,

that too deal wood, that’s all we could get,

not even teak wood.

So, on that we had to mount the burettes and all the

bulbs and everything we used to do it.

That was the first unit.

And then when the department moved

to the new building, Applied Chemistry Building,

that unit was also shifted.

Of course, it does not exist anymore,

we shifted, and if we used for several years later also.

Now, B. V., you have done work in lots of areas.

Now first and foremost, I would like you to remember,

you said about the research scholars Kannan,

Jain and others all of them.

Do you remember that,

you must have joined after that gas plant explosion took place? Yes.

You are not aware of that one ok,

but you were there when the liquid nitrogen plant came? Yeah, yeah.

So you are very much there when the liquid nitrogen plant came. Because I...because I was the first operator of that unit.

Yeah yeah yeah yeah I mean we used it

in fact. In fact I remember, we...the cancer hospital,

it was...in way back in 1964-65,

they wanted to do some experiments

with the cells, cancer cells,

and so they didn't want to

first take the liquid nitrogen there,

they have brought that thing and then

we provided a liquid nitrogen,

and they did the experiments right in our lab.

And then next time onwards,

we told them I will spare you

a Dewar flask, and they used to...

they started experiments. That is that,

doctor is no more, I think

that Muthulakshmi’s son or somebody Yes. Like that.

He was the first medical officer in the Cancer Institute

which is in the...the...Adyar.

Not in the present place.

Now, you said about the Ph. D. programme,

so you were registered with Professor Sastry and

V. Srinivasan. V. Srinivasan

and you remember I think after

the adsorption laboratory was set up,

you must have done one pore size,

a pore volume measurement, that means,

going from very low pressure to the

atmospheric pressure. How many hours

would you have taken to complete the experiment?

Initially, it was taking 2 or 3 days.

2 or 3 days to complete an exp... So continuously, because the...

it is...the temperature has to be maintained

by pouring liquid nitrogen, there is no

temperature control and all that.

So, therefore, we...three or four days

maybe sometimes even a week.

Because a... One week completely, you have

to keep...keep awake.

See the resins had to be taken once in two hours,

three hours, till the...once the equilibrium is obtained.

Fortunately, we had a liquid nitrogen plant,

there was no problem,

but then you know we had to work day and night

taking readings, when it becomes

constraint you would take.

And those readings had to be,

sort of filled up in an equation and finally,

the pores are volume distribution had

pore size distribution,

pore...calculation had be done.

And, let me tell you that

he developed a mathematical method,

for the calculation of pore size distribution

and it was published in Journal of Catalysis, am I right? Yes.

So, so experimental one is something.

So, he felt that its good also to do some theoretical work,

and he started his, this one at that same time,

to...a...do that calculation also.

I think you must have had a very good background in Mathematics.

Yeah, I did not do I...I had a background in mathematics,

actually I wanted to do Mathematics,

but in my family, my both brothers are Mathematicians,

therefore, they forced me to take Chemistry.

Oh, I see. That is how I came to Chemistry,

but I had some flair for Mathematics.

Oh that is how you continued your this...

Ok now, so, what I see, the...the thing you have provided,

now I just want to ask you, about various aspects of

studies you have done in the last 50 years, I would say 50 years

because you already completed more than 50 years.

Now, very...very first thing was on adsorption,

and, even when you were working as a research scholar,

we had one more person who joined as a research scholar,

Mister...a person from CECRI, I forget his name, Rajagopalan.

S. R. Rajagopalan. S. R. Rajagopalan.

Yeah, yes I am sorry...this I told you.

Now, there was one Mr. S. R. Rajagopalan

who joined as a research scholar.

If I remember right, it is a unique case

at least in IIT Madras, that Mr. Rajagopalan

was only a Bachelor’s Degree and that too not only that,

he was a Bachelors Degree in Natural Science.

Botany, Zoology or something like that.

But then he was directly registered for a Ph. D.,

and then he secured his Ph. D. in IIT Madras.

Not only that, later, he was a joint guide

from students in IIT Madras for Ph. D.,

along with I think, T. V. Ramakrishna and,

he was taken from Karaikudi CSIR laboratory,

all the way to the National Aeronautical Laboratory

and he retired from there. Yes.

And his wife was also a scientist there. Yes, Sir.

Now, can you tell me where Mr. Rajagopalan is? He is...he is now in Bangalore,

settled down in Bangalore, his wife is Indira Rajagopalan. I know.

The both of them live there,

but they don’t have any issues.

So he, but his sister in law has a son,

so he is living with his son...sister in law's son.

I see. In Bangalore,

I met him a few...few months back.

He must be nearing 90. He is 90...not 90,

he is 83...85 or 86. Yeah, he is elder to me, I know 85-86.

He is 90...1960, so now, 27 years, so, 87.

87 oh yes. Now, he was a...I mean,

I had also some collaboration with him,

but unfortunately we did not publish any work,

I had met him several times in National Aeronautical Laboratory.

In fact, we wanted to bring him as a Director

with the SPIC Science Foundation to the electrochemistry vision

that Parthasarathy wanted to replace,

but then he was not interested to come at that time.

Now, please tell me your work on adsorption as such,

so, can you please... Ok adsorption I...

I have done various aspects of adsorption,

as you know very well. But, on metals,

on on the pore size distribution, many...many others

even...even vapors adsorption also I have done,

isopropyl alcohol or some organic matter,

we will not go into the details.

So, therefore vapor adsorption at the time was

not known in this country. Yeah, yeah.

It was...the permanent gas adsorptions are known. Yeah.

Vapor adsorption was not known,

so, vapor adsorption, and why I did vapor adsorption is,

I afterwards I converted into catalytic reactions. Yeah.

So, therefore, catalytic reactions adsorption is important.

so, the...in that way, I went to the adsorption of the vapors. Yeah.

Then we we built up some microbalance and all those things. Yeah.

And you know very well, one of the microbalances

which was originally done in this place ok.

We...we...we didn't have a com balance,

commercial balance, only quartz spring balance were there. Yeah.

So, therefore, quartz spring balance only we were

using first...first, then we purchased com balance,

then we purchased more...more than one com balance.

So, from the...in the...from the adsorption, I deviated

to, at that point of time, to do a catalysis. I see that catalytic reactions.

Yeah, but still now, even...you see...you said about the

the framework and all that, we have still the frameworks

they...they are slotted angle frame

and the adsorption units still there ok. I see, I see.

It is not used now, because people are not having that type...

because you know very well, even to take one adsorption

isotherm it is only a few points, but it will take one full day. One full day.

So, therefore, now people are...want

everything in the computer

and the results must be within few hours or few minutes, that is a Yeah.

So, therefore nobody has the patience

to use those apparatus. But it is still there. I see,

Now, in in this connection,

I wanted to mention

very...it...I can say it was interesting observation,

but you know once we were trying to

do that pore volume measurement, pore...up to the

saturation pressure, with nitrogen, on the com balance.

So, I don’t know how much time it took

maybe one day, and then something happened

very funnily. So the quartz bulb was

containing the sample, and then just as it is a

liquid hydrogen temperature, and I was

thinking that we are going to make a measurement,

and I was very much there and

suddenly, there was a disturbance,

and then the entire powder in the thing

got tilted out. And then I said, "What is this?"

"Why is it happening?" You know,

I was surprised, that the liquid nitrogen, possibly

was a nitrogen gas...was possibly contaminated

a little bit of oxygen, and this oxygen had condensed

in the form of a thin hair and these had connected

to the sides of the bulb.

And so that disturbed,

because the balance was no longer free,

and the entire thing got disturbed

and the whole powder fell down,

and I said this is very funny.

So next time I did not go through the

entire pore volume, just went through the saturation pressure,

very near...and again repeated, again it happened.

So I knew the nitrogen gas

were filled up, was possibly impure,

it was set at...

I never reported this in any...this one, but it is

an experience which I always remember.

And, you mentioned about the other balance.

We did obtain the Stanton thermobalance

unfortunately, because when the whole thing

was shifted from one building to another,

and then I don’t blame,

I don’t know whether...

I cannot blame Professor Sastry or anybody,

but then 20 years later, 20 years later,

parts of that, which were lost

were found in one of the cupboards, in the laboratory.

And it was too late

by then you know com balance, we had just

condemned it somewhere, and then I felt

so sorry about it. And I...I told this to

Professor Srinivasan just before retiring,

it was lying somewhere there,

I don’t know whether I must have told you all that.

Because this is not the only thing that we lost in this,

another was parts of the microcalorimeter,

and I think the...parts of the porosimeter,

because porosimeter we could never set it up,

the mercury...sorry porosimeter we set up at the

other one we could not set up the. Calorimeter.

Calorimeter. And you know this was something which

happened because of things when...happened

shifting and all that, and microcalorimeter

was a bit damaged also.

Have you made use of that...first mass spectrometer

which came...CIS? Yeah, yeah

I didn’t use the first mass spectrometer,

which was in the HSB, it was installed. Yeah, yeah installed mass...

I...I was responsible for installing it I...Yeah...yeah that's correct,

Then that Ramana...Then, then Ramana took over as a...

because he was working on mass spectrometer of the fragments,

but I have use...installed it and used it.

I see...of course, that was only meant for setting. Organic vapors is morely...

mostly in...in one day...and that time

we were using permanent gases and other things.

Yes. Therefore, we...we didn’t use it extensively,

but I have used it. I see, ok.

Now, somewhere you...when you became a Lecturer in 1960...

Associate Lecturer in 1968 or '67...

'69. '69 you became is it? I see.

So, I think by the time the Institute

celebrates Golden Jubilee...sorry Diamond Jubilee,

you will be celebrating your Silver Jubilee...

sorry Golden Jubilee as a faculty member.

So, Mister Kumaran, so I think we must remember,

he is going to celebrate his Golden Jubilee,

as a faculty member. Yes, yes.

As...by about...say two years' time now.

Now, let me then ask about the catalytic reactions,

you have carried out a number of catalytic reactions.

And, any reaction which you think

you could have possibly...we could have commercialized,

you could have commercialized

and possibly for some reasons, it didn’t go to that stage.

Ok, many...many things we could have commercialized.

For example, recently we did Narimanam

you might have heard about it.

Narimanam is a village in in Tanjore district,

or very near to Karaikal. The...there, they found oil.

But the oil cannot be directly used,

because the the sulphur content is 720 PPM. Oh, I see.

So it has to be refined and brought to...

for example, even today in the cities...ok, in the metropolis,

it should be 50 PPM. And in the...in the rural areas,

it can be 100 to 150 PPM. Ok that is that refined petrol.

Petrol or diesel or fuel, let us not worry about it.

So but the...what they were doing is, they were

shipping the...from Narimanam to Chennai,

refined it and then brought it back to the villages.

So, we developed a process by simply pumping the oil

through a column. We can bring down the sulphur content

from 720 to less than 150.

And then it can be sold in the rural areas there itself. I see.

Because the amount of crude oil that was

available at that time is...is not some metric...

a million metric tons, it is only few tons ok,

so therefore, the bringing it here

and refining it. Yeah, its.

And bringing it back there, it will be

unnecessarily adding the cost.

So this process...like this, this is one of them ok,

there are many processes that we have developed.

So this...this process we developed for CPCL.

Today’s CPCL, at that time MRL. Madras Refineries.

But you know very well, in this country, any...

any development that you do,

it should be also in...in...include some perks,

we cannot give any perks to them.

yeah yeah. So therefore it was not implemented,

but I...I had very good connections with the CMD of MRL,

the from the first Deenadayalu and then

subsequently all of them. Yeah, I know I know I know.

All of them were personally known to me.

So, that is one of the reasons why we did for them.

This project started in '80’s, you may be knowing

with the Sitharaman as the. Yeah.

Head of R and D. And then, we...we...even...even in

twen...2004, 2005, we were working for the Narimanam project.

I see, because I was not there. So, this is one of them.

The...the same way we have done...developed

an alumina catalyst which is having pore size.

At that time alumina, and the silica, as you know very well

as carbon is one of the coconut shell carbon is

one of the Indian famous. But it is no longer good,

because, now the Chinese are bringing

carbon 3000 square meters per gram.

Whereas, coconut, charcoal and other things

will have only 200 to 300. At that time,

I...the Indian Oil Corporation, also is...

was interested in the alumina. So we developed

an alumina which is porous alumina which

will have surface areas greater than 300 square meters.

I see. Because normally alumina will have only 150 to 200.

What, what alumina was it? It is a gamma alumina.

I see gamma alumina. Because it is a support for many of

the refining process. Yeah, yeah right right.

So, therefore, this...this was

about to be commercialized by one of the companies,

we will not name them.

So, the, but...but

somehow or other I...I P C, I mean IOCL

did not pursue it further.

But we went and manufactured this.

The same way as you know when...when we

did the work for CPCL,

the main catalyst in the refining is FCC:

Fluid Catalytic Cracking.

Now, if you take...in India itself,

we are importing FCC catalysts may...even if you

put an optimist estimate, 10000 tons per year,

10000 tons of the catalyst are being imported.

So, what we did was, we...we developed a catalyst

for FCC in our laboratory, and then I went

to a...a manufacturing company, at that time,

the manufacturing company was in. Haldia.

West Bengal...West Bengal. Haldia, I remember, I remember.

I went there, we...we developed the catalyst,

then we...we...the representative from MRL,

Mister...Doctor Meenakshi Sundaram Yeah.

and myself were returning, when we arrived here by train,

at the time they purchased that company.

The Western Company, purchased the manufacturing unit,

and destroyed it within two days.

Because they know fully well that the FCC catalyst

will be manufactured in India and they did not want, because...

This is news to me, I have. Yes, but we cannot tell this out,

how can we tell this out? Who purchased it, who...?

This is...the...the company belonged to Hindustan Lever. Oh, I see yeah.

The...the manufacturing company was

belonging to Hindustan Lever

and you know very well these are all multinationals. Yeah, yeah yeah yeah.

They will be able to manipulate everything.

Everything happened within three days.

We...we had to come from Haldia to Howrah,

Howrah to Chennai by train, by the time we arrived here

already everything is... This is news to me

I only know that the MRL was not interested. No, no no

MRL was very much... No no no MRL see the company said...

you had to order for one crore worth of catalyst. Yeah, yeah that is a.

And these people were hesitant to do it, and then that is

why I said that you should at least file patents, and

they agreed and we joined the file. Yeah, yeah we...we have

we...we...we still have the patent, three patents are there with that. Yeah yeah that’s correct, that’s correct

so. Because why they asked is the MRL, at that time

not now, at that time the capacity for FCC catalyst was 300 tonnes.

And each tonne at that time itself one lakh.

Now, we are not talking about the cost of today.

So therefore, per year, they have to buy 300...300 lakh of rupees.

So therefore, they thought, because at that time there were only

about 9 or 10 refineries, now we have 17 refineries in India.

So...and also the biggest refinery in the world itself is there in India.

The Reliance. Reliance yeah.

Ok, because they are...they are consuming about

maybe about 1500 Tons of FCC catalyst.

Anyway the above 1000. You mean, the FCC catalyst

they still use all hydro cracking and other things. No no no, this a

FCC is a...is a part of that ok. Yeah, is a part.

Yeah, once you do the FCC, then you can do hydro cracking and all those things. Yeah, right that was the...

Yes. Higher fractions

Yes. And all that higher fraction ok.

So, we have a covered about the...I am say catalytic

reactions to something which is a lot of industrial interest.

One more project which we started,

and you were very much involved in, that was the hydrogen energy.

And naturally, there was a hydrogen energy materials

science laboratory and Professor Shastry tried to

put forward, what India is capable of in doing hydrogen energy

in the world level and all that. But then,

what is the present state of this hydrogen energy

thing in India and in the world, as such? Ok

in. And our cont... First first. Your contribution.

In the...my contribution, I will come to it later,

the...the present status of hydrogen energy in

India is very...very meager ok.

I mean, when compared to other countries.

This is because, the production is become...

from the decomposition of water ok.

The decomposition of water at the moment

in the commercial scale, not laboratory scale,

in the commercial scale if you have to take,

the efficiency is less than 10 percent,

single digit percent. If the...if...if any chemical

process you are to carry out, it should be having

at least carnot efficiency, 33 percent,

then only it will...even if you take solar cell,

the silicon solar cells is only 26 percent,

that is why they are looking for alternatives for solar cells.

So, therefore, the...the...the problem here is, the materials.

Yes. The...H2O getting decomposed...it requires 1.23 Volts,

but it will not decompose if you apply 1.23 Volts,

you have to put some more over voltage. Yeah.

So, therefore, if you put all those things,

the efficiency will come down. Yeah.

Ok...it, that is the problem. Even today,

western world is trying ok, I myself

have addressed the American Chemical Society,

number of times I was specifically invited for this,

ok. In...in...in addition, that is the...even the hydrogen storage.

Yeah. You may be knowing, in 1999,

very...you may be knowing the scientist also,

I don’t want to name him.

He is a very famous scientist from Northwestern University.

He reported a value of 67 weight percent.

And 2001, I was asked to address the American Chemical Society,

what is the status of the hydrogen

storage in...in solid state materials?

So, the...the first line I said is,

"This result is nonsense." The whole of the audience

of Americans stood up, "What is all this..."

Then, I said, "You see, in the nature,

carbon and hydrogen ratio is...if you

take the highest hydrogen containing

carbon material, is CH4."

So, 12 plus 4, 16, 16 grams can contain 4 grams.

Therefore, if I have 100 grams, it can contain only

25 for its weight percent. 67 weight

percent storage is impossible. Oh.

So, this is the...there are other evidences also,

we can say, we will not go into all of them.

The oxidation potential, reduction potential

we can use, all those things we can show.

Many ways I proved, within 5 minutes, I proved,

everybody sat down. I mean it is not to...

so now, that is one of the...that is also...today also is a problem.

Now, I will...I will tell you, because, if you take metals,

ok, we...metals is the one of the ways where hydrogen

can be stored, even in IIT in Mechanical Engineering,

in Chemistry, in Physics, all the places have metals

or inter metallics are used for hydrogen storage.

But the in the case of the metals,

If you have one metal atom,

one hydrogen alone can be stored.

Ok, it is not a stoichiometry,

it is the...the vacant space that is available.

Yeah, yeah yeah. So therefore, if I have iron, 55 grams,

we will store only one gram.

So 100 grams of iron will

store two grams only.

So, even if you take a...a

very...unless always the atomic weight

of the metal is going to be 10,

then you can, 10-1-1 therefore, 110 percent.

So, that is why magnesium is storing...

Yeah, that’s why. More storing more.

So, you should not immediately say

all metals will store more.

Whereas, carbon will store up to 25 weight percent,

but we can make only one residual valency.

Yeah. The other two-three...three has to be connected to other three carbons,

only the surface carbon alone, one have a one residual valency,

that will store 25 by 4, 36.25,

that is the original DOE standards,

they expected only six percent storage.

In carbon? Carbon.

Whatever may the type of carbon?

Any...any type of carbon, you can...you

technically and scientifically, you can achieve six percent

I see. Storage, but we have not yet achieved that.

Naturally, naturally. That is a different situation.

So, therefore, it...even with hydrogen...hydrogen production,

and hydrogen storage is a fertile field of research even today.

I see. And if...not only fertile field of research it\,

is as a very...very many things can be done in that.

No no, you don’t talk about the metals and alloys,

inter metallics in it, but just a porous material like

a zeolite or a very, can that at least be used Yeah, yeah there...that’s the that MOF,

you might have heard about it, Metal Organic Framework. Yeah,

metal organic. which which is having very high porosity,

see where hydrogen storage can be done

to whatever extent you want,

but the material must be recyclable at least

10 to 20000 cycles. Right.

Then only it will...is economical.

For example, you have a petrol tank,

tank is there therefore, you can go on filling it up.

In the same way if I have a...it is...it is a tank.

It takes the hydrogen and gives at the tank.

So it should be capable of taking any number of cycles.

At least for an automobile applications, or

for mobile applications, the cycling must be at least

thousand times, if possibly it must be 10...tens of thousands.

Now, these materials will not stand with that,

it will be one or two times only.

Then, how is it they are talking of running automobiles on hydrogen energy or Yeah,

that is what...the...the hydrogen

hydrogen can be stored in cylinder, various ways. Yeah.

So, therefore, that...but that is a weight penalty.

Weight penalty. Yes.

So, So, you have to...if you are using a cylinder,

even now today you can use. Yeah, yeah

Point is, whatever they are claiming that

they are using hydrogen energy,

that is all just not by hydride

basis or anything like that, it is only by cylinder No no no no directly they are not

directly they are not using hydrogen, because

you carry, you carry in a automobile, a cylinder,

it is equivalent to carrying a bomb, bomb in a vehicle. bomb

So, they might be carrying the hydride

hydride storage vessels. Yes

So, we should be, I mean is there any limit

to the size of the hydride? Yeah, yes it is all...it...

it the...the...the whole of the automobile

configuration itself has to be changed. I see.

We...we also did another thing, ok, I don’t want to tell this here,

we...we tried to generate hydrogen in situ in a car. I see.

The same method ok, decomposing water,

but not by electrolysis, because in the...in a car,

I cannot do electrolysis. Yeah.

So, it is a chemical reaction,

we will not go into the details of the chemical reaction.

We...we tried this and we try...drove the car,

I myself drove the car to Tirupati,

from Chennai ok, but only thing is in a route and in a time

when there will be no traffic. Because it is...if it explodes it...

it will be very dangerous. Then I wanted to

demonstrate this car in IIT.

At that time Ananth was the Director

and he knew about this development.

So he wanted me to bring the car and do it.

So, we brought it and put it very near to the CLT

and then started preparing it, it exploded.

It exploded. Yes.

I see. I will tell you what is that happened ok.

So, therefore, the the whole Maruthi car became nothing ok,

anyway we will not talk about it. I see, but it was a run for...

No no no it was preparing to run. No no I am telling you said you ran it

No no after that...after that, after this explosion,

we found out why...why it has happened and all those things,

then I drove the car from a Chennai to Hyderabad. I see.

These are all done for a company which is

associated with the...the previous Chief Minister of Andhra Pradesh.

So, we will not name him and all those things,

Jagan Mohan Reddy’s father.

No but what is the present situation there?

That chemical method is possible still, but it is dangerous. Ok.

So now, the...the...was the Institute,

IIT, was it anyway financially compensating for the No no no this was done by

the uncle of the...Jagan Mohan Reddy’s father.

I see no no, but they paid for all this? Yeah, yeah they paid for all of this,

even the car was paid by by them. But you were paid for it?

No no no. For doing the research.

I was...I was...I was only, I was only helping them. I see I see ok

and something...something which is very interesting,

now you have also worked on hydrate batteries,

what is difference between hydrate batteries

and hydrogen storage, what is the difference?

Now, hydrate batteries is a...is a

because you know very well, the combustion value of

hydrogen is very high, compared to any other thing. So, yeah, so that.

So, therefore, hydrate batteries is better, but

today, hydrate batteries are not so famous,

lithium ion batteries alone is...for example,

in this year’s Nobel Prize and last year’s Nobel Prize

should have gone to Goodenough, because he was the man

who invented the lithium ion battery, ok.

Who? But, unfortunately for some reason,

we will not go into all of the reason,

He published a paper in March...end of March...March 27th

on a lithium ion battery, it it made a stir in the whole world.

I see. Ok, but unfortunately what happened is, that paper,

it is not yet published, so, I don’t want to discuss that,

but still...I...we can discuss that science,

there is a flaw in that paper.

So that was pointed out by a by a scientist in...from MIT,

there...it is still...it is not out because,

Nobel Prize was being considered,

therefore, this...this objection

comes, the...Goodenough's name will go.

So, therefore, even now, even now

it is not yet published. I see, I see.

Now let me just digress

for a minute from the research.

Now, you have guided a large number of students,

now, with how many are you still in contact,

can you name some of them? Nearly 90 percent.

Oh. I have...I have guided...guided, I will not say,

I have been associated ok. Ok.

About more than 120 students.

Not only in Chemistry, but in other Departments also. Yeah,

the whole Institute, and also some other Institute,

because you know very well...that yeah, so,

not only in Chennai ok, where...wherever the

even...even up to Tezpur in one corner,

they are...in the in the western corner, up to Gujarat. Ok.

So. Now, any of your students,

research students, or those with whom you are associated,

have received the Distinguished

Alumnus Award of the Institute?

I don’t remember, I don’t keep track of it,

but the... Who is it that has now...heading the laboratory of

Goodenough? Oh...Mandiram oh ok ok.

Has Mandiram received it? Yes, yes.

Mandiram received it ok, I think we will check

in the Distinguished Alumnus Award. Yeah, yeah he received it.

He received it. you have worked with Palanisamy?

Yes. Is Palanisamy also in some way...no, Mandiram only

Mandiram only, yes what about that DuPont fellow

M...M. A. Subramanian. M. A. Subramanian did not

get the alumni... No, I think he did not get it,

he is a Ph. D. from our college, ok.

Now, let me just...this is about the students,

and you say you remember most of the students.

Now, you did some work for some company in USA,

Columbia. Columbian Chemicals.

Yeah, was it industry... Ok. collaborations project?

I will, I will just tell you the story of the Columbian Chemicals.

I went to United States up to that year I did not

even step into the any of the western countries,

I only stayed in India, ok.

I stepped into the United States only after 2000,

after my retirement. No, but you had been to Germany and.

That is later, I mean the United States. United States ok.

So, when I went to you know Columbian Chemicals,

at that time one of my student was in Columbian Chemicals,

Srinivas. Yeah, Srinivas yeah.

So he invited me to, at that time meeting only, the

the...the hydrogen storage address was there.

So he invited me, so I went there,

I don’t want to name the Vice President.

He said they were...they were in the business

of making carbon ok, the carbon is low ion carbon,

for tyre manufacture and other things.

At that time, the...the carbon can be made

very very value at the addition, carbon electrodes

and other things ok, we will not talk about it.

So, he threw me a challenge because

they have invested in two best institutes in the

United States and United Kingdom.

You...now itself you can imagine what

will be the names of the the institutions,

Cambridge and MIT, to make this

carbon material into value addition.

Value addition means, it should not be useful to

the low ion use, it should be

a gram of carbon must cost you

1000 dollars like that. So, he gave this project,

he came to IIT, he gave me this project in March

one year, then he said every six months

I will visit you, you...you tell me the progress.

So, by September he came, I gave them the process. I see.

At that time, that two other...two other institutions,

we will not worry about that, they could not even progress anything.

Now, was it...was IIT Madras compensated for this? No, I will tell you,

then he said, "I should give you some some reward for this."

So, he said, "I will give you 20000 dollars free."

Without any commitment, then I said, "I don’t take any money

for any...on any of these things."

So, give this 20000 dollars to our Institute. Yeah.

So, they gave the money to...to 20000 dollars to the Institute,

we...with the condition that it should be used for

research purposes of our laboratory. Same thing ok,

you...you can call it research based. So like that he was

even willing to give more, but at that time, the...

there was some restrictions. I see, I see.

These type of donations, we cannot get...certain amount only. I see,

oh it was not called the research based industrial consultancy No no no it was a gift.

Oh because what I did was, I...

that is a...that is a...

that is a different thing. Yeah, I made it...I see, ok.

Oh that’s...now that is at Columbian...because I see

quite a few things mentioned in your patents,

that it is being...the it has been patented by the company. Yes, yes.

Oh, they have patented it.

They have patented it They have made money on that one.

Now, as of now has that two Western Universities contributed? No,

but Columbian Chemicals itself has been sold to some Ok.

Taiwanese and other things. Ok.

So, it it did not get through. Ok,

Now I will go back to something else.

Now, you know that we were...

our Department was associated,

the Chemistry Department to the catalysis group

was known in most of the Western countries

I don’t say about USA, Europe and all that,

as a...as a centre for catalysis research.

Now, you know that Russians used to come, Russian groups

used to come and attend even our...

and some others, some Germany other countries also.

Oh, do you remember the visit to some of the

Germans who came to IIT Madras, Chemistry Department. Yes, I know.

During '70s, can you name, and you went

to one of them to do your Post Doctoral. Professor Block is one of them.

Yes. Professor Knozinger is one of them

and then Helmut is another...another Professor. Professor?

Helmut, from the Fritz Haber Institute

the...who is worked on the... Oh Karge...Helmut Karge.

Now, what about the...the person Janicke and Ernst.

Ernst...Ernst and... Yeah.

Now, then there are...wait a minute. Now, Professor Block,

you went to Professor Block, to spend a Post Doctoral with him,

I mean I...I think von Humboldt Fellowship.

And again I think, you worked for some time

with Max Planck fellow also.

Now, have you...you must have definitely

visited their workshops.

So the excellent workshop extending over,

so you must have possibly built also...

used the workshop for your research work and all that.

Now, you have published with Professor Block some paper? Yeah, yeah lot of papers.

But you have not I think you have mentioned only one paper or two papers. Because...

It is. But anyway for more more than five or six papers with him.

I see, but during the time when you were with Professor Block,

was the Nobel laureate. Ernst...Ernst.

Yeah. Was he also there? Ertl; Ertl.

The Nobel. Ertl...Ertl.

Correct, was he also there? He was not there at the time.

Ok. But, I know him.

Ok, now I, if I were to say that if Professor Block were to be alive,

then Professor Ertl got the Nobel Prize,

it would have been awarded to both of them together,

would you agree that? No no, not that way,

Block would have got it individually, because, Block has developed...

For example, I will tell you one thing,

just now we have an instrument, which is

costing about, we will not worry about the cost,

B. S. Murty has installed.

This technique itself was developed first,

we...we developed ok, myself and Block and others

ok, we will not name the all of them.

So, the...we were developed, but we did not succeed at the time,

that is. what was that.

The photo, Photo Induced Ionization.

Photo Induced Ionization Spectroscopy. Yes.

The same technique only now they...it is the commercially available

and B. S. Murty has invested about maybe 50-60 crores.

What for is this? It is studying the fragmentations

that are taking place inside the thing with a...with the...voltage,

high voltage. Now, how is B. S. Murty...in Metallurgical.

Yeah yeah yeah, but he is interested in in the metallic clusters

and other things so. I see I see I see so...

That is not a thing...ok because it is a laser beam,

so it is an instantaneous heat. I see.

So, therefore, you can evaporate any metal.

But then your interest was on what? On Field Ionization.

Field Ionization. That is, field ionization requires very...very high field

10 to the power of 8 volts per angstrom.

So that means, I should apply 30000 volts or 40000 volts,

40000 volts in a room if you are applying,

what a danger. So therefore, we wanted to

bring down that application of the voltage on the...

on the metal tip, this is called tip,

filament we will say...take a filament. So, therefore,

we wanted to bring down that voltage.

So we wanted to do voltage plus photons

so that it will ionize easily. I see.

The concept itself is a new thing there, at that time ok.

This was in '70. It was in '78.

'78 I see.

No, what I felt was because Ertl came...

because Ertl came later, and then Ertl and

so many joined, who were working parallelly

and they were in contact, but I felt that when Ertl got it,

he would have...Block also would have possibly... Block was, if...

if Block was...were...were to be alive, he would have got

a Nobel Prize even earlier than Ertl. I see I see,

because now...now that we talked about Nobel Prize,

have you visited in Fritz Haber Institute,

the room where the Nobel Prize... Yeah, yeah it will be a room...

Almost about this size. slightly About this size and the on the wall,

there will be photographs of that... All the Noble laureates.

Yes, there will be 20-25, in the Fritz Haber Institute itself...

itself will be a...Nobel Prize will be 20-25, and many others

who...who were very near to the Nobel Prize.

For example, you take Gerischer in this year’s ok, Block’s year,

there were...there was a talk that Gerischer and Block

both will get the Nobel Prize.

Yeah. But Gerischer was the Director and

Block was the previous Director.

I see. That rotating system existing long ago,

then Ertl became the Director, when Block died,

then Ertl became the Director. No, you have visited because he had

taken me to that room and No, I have I attended many seminars in that room.

Yeah, I see. I myself have given a seminar there.

I see I see. So, ok, going back to that, you have

spent some time in Japan also, what was your work in Japan?

In Japan, I was working...ok development

of silicons at that time ok, this is in '83, '84 ok.

Gating Technique. I see.

So, reducing the time of Gating Technique. I see, I see.

So, silicons...silicon based systems we were doing, we were measuring.

So, it is, I mean, in which this one does it come?

Does it come under materials or does it come under? It is...it is...it can be considered as materials,

at that time only the silicon single...single crystals ok,

I was using single crystals only, single crystal and technology, ok.

Single crystal is known for the centuries together,

but the technology, especially in the electrical...electronics industry,

silicon single chips were there.

now. For example, you said, they are same...same thing,

it was done...the work was done for a company and our instrument,

some...some fault was there, ok and I had only eight months time.

So, therefore, the, but the instrument

has to come from United Kingdom.

I see, I see. So, when I phoned up the company, they said

"How many hours is the flight from United Kingdom to Japan?"

We were in...in Japan in Tokyo...in Hokkaido

Hokkaido is very much away from Tokyo

ok, four or five hours flight for a thing,

but anyway we will not worry.

Then, they said, "24 hours you wait,

24 hours you spend your time

24 hours, it will be deposited to you."

So, within 24 hours, it was there on my table.

The instrument. That part.

I see part, I see.

So, let me now come to a later part,

now you were associated with the...the catalysis division,

almost somewhere the inception,

you know Professor Kuriacose

who became the Head of the Catalysis Division in 1984.

And he got...sorry, he got...he got associated with

the MRL project of '84 onwards, and he got the building,

the Kinetic Catalysis Lab, and the Catalysis Division almost

simultaneously, around '85 or '86, because the...

it was a Silver Jubilee cooperation agreement.

Now, you were involved initially, because you know when,

Professor Weitkamp, the coordinator came

and then you were involved in all that SWOT analysis

and all that finally, you know that we were not

very much consulted on the type of equipment.

What make, and what this one had to be...we wanted,

they decided everything under.

Even when we...in the

first agreement or the third IIT agreement,

when we got equipment Professor Sastry’s time.

You remember the planner on the German side have,

you met him Professor Kerber?

I didn’t meet him. Technical University...

See Professor Kerber, I don’t think made any

much visits to this place.

He had visited once,

and we have a photograph of his, and that...some organization meeting,

but then he...the Professor who have sent

was one Professor Butenuth who must have known him. Butenuth I know very well.

Yeah, but Butenuth, what was his specialization we could not make out,

he was mostly... He was Mineral Chemistry.

Mineral Chemistry, and so he could not do anything and

did not possibly...it was a misfit in Chemistry.

So, he spent his time, I felt, he felt very miserable

during that one year and he went away,

but wanted to keep in touch with two people who went

to Germany afterward, Professor Ramana and

Professor V. R. S. Rao...sorry Professor Udupa

and took them round and all that. Anyway, that

was not a very good...

Now, let’s come to the catalysis division time,

you know after Weitkamp started supplying the equipment,

one of the equipment that was supplied, I felt was a waste,

that was a hydrogen plant. And you know that room

was set up and then it was all there, what happened to that

one after he retired? It was all demolished.

Because we could not use it because it was in

semi-industrial level.

And that had to be connected

by lines to the hydrogen, into the main lab, to be used for

chromatographic purposes Yeah, but see

this was done 30 years back or 40 years before,

or in '70s around. '80...'80s '80s,

80’s so, that’s hydrogen is a safety measure, ok.

Yeah. It is a very dangerous to do such hydrogen

production inside the building, in inside an institution. Yeah.

And it is put in the...in the midst of Physics, Chemistry,

and other other things, and it was put in a very small room.

So, it is operationally...it was not...cannot be a successful thing. I know,

that’s what I am telling you, that see the supply,

I mean they decided to supply certain things which were not

of use to us which we could not put to use ok. Same...

same thing happened in the case of the first

set of equipment and all that.

Now, on behalf of the Heritage Centre,

I would like to ask you something. You know you had used,

I had use...we used to use a mechanical calculator. Facit; facit.

Facit Facit calculator. Do you have any one of them in the Chemistry still?

We don’t have a Facit calculator, but we had number of them

ok. Oh, do you know where we can get one?

We want to put it in the Heritage Museum.

So, we are asking where...who...asking people who have used it,

all the Departments have used it, I remember.

I have used it extensively. Yeah,

now for this...for the purpose of the Heritage Centre,

I want to tell, that then we were the

two who were...doing all the donkeys work,

as far as the seminars in the Chemistry Department are concerned.

Right from 1967, I think when we arranged the

Solid State Chemistry Symposium.

So we had to take care of the projector,

we had to take care of all the arrangements

and then I think it was done even when all the

resonance meetings were...I mean intercollegiate

meetings were held. I think we were the last to go out

in the evening, taking all the projectors along

with some research students and all that.

I mean I can never forget,

so, in the not... Not only...not only in the city of Madras,

when we organized Catalysis Symposium in Dhanbad

I see, there also I do not know, whether you remember

No, no. You traveled with us, we took the projector.

I see. Not a slide projector alone,

even the overhead projector from here. Oh, that was for the workshop?

Workshop for Catalysis workshop ok. Yeah because I came only for the Sindri this one,

PDIL. Ok, but...but it is in the ISM, Dhanbad.

Yeah, yeah that. Recently, I was...I was in Dhanbad, I was remembering that.

I see, I see because I went only for the, what

Sindri Organization and that was. Yeah, Sindri is different,

Sindri is. But that was....I mean the

the guest house was all horrible, in sense

lot of mosquitoes and all that, that is where we

gave the Eminent Scientist Award for the first time. Yeah, yeah.

So, Professor M. V. C. Sastri gave an address and he received the award.

Now, Professor Viswanathan is a...has also received

the Eminent Scientist Award of Catalysis Society,

in addition to several other awards which we have listed here.

So, I just want to once again take you back

to some of the joint projects that

we might have done together.

So, for example, one is the...

this thing about uh...MRL project,

another is about the work on X-ray photoelectron.

I mean is...installing, and then doing some work on the

XP...XPS things. What is the present situation about...

I think that instrument is condemned. No no no, that...that instrument is condemned,

but now we have a new instrument.

Is it now working? Is...what is? Yes yes, it is working.

I see. And we are...we are the only institution, or only centre

which were giving service free of charge to anybody

in the whole of this country, and even in the whole of the world.

I wanted to...what are the facilities available?

I have never come...visited that's the reason... For catalysis, you have everything there.

I see. In a modern...modern...all spectroscopies

and all...even we have a TEM, very...very, two angstroms you can resolve.

I see I see I see. The the best instrument is one angstrom,

but our instrument can resolve 2 angstroms.

Because we are...we going to use a catalyst and

other things which is a dirty material.

So, one angstrom instrument will be spoiled very easily,

that is why we...we...we went in for a two angstrom,

this costs you...us around 10 crores,

all put together ok, the instrument and the room and other things.

You mean, now what? It is working.

I see, I see. And it is giving service for

the whole of this country, even for IIT,

even though in IIT we have at least five microscopes,

10 microscopes. I see.

But the...ours is the most extensively used instrument.

Oh, I see, you mean electron microscopy. Electron microscopy.

Electron microscopy. Now, you know we received one

thing for gas analysis.

I am not talking about...

the what happened to the GCMS, I don’t know.

That was condemned is it, GCMS? Yeah, yeah that was condemned.

That was condemned.

Now, we used to have another you know, gas analysis.

We couldn’t use the...there was no

software available for getting the detailed data and all that.

And then, Professor Karge, the Karge sent us the

reaction unit to be used along with the

infrared spectrometer. That was also not set up with it

I think by then the...IR...IR instrument failed and... But now we have,

nowadays commercially there are various instruments,

at that time we had to get it custom made by Karge.

Yeah. But, now it is all available, it is...it is possible even now,

in our instrument. I see,

you...you have facilities for all that? Yeah yeah.

I see. It is...it is all now commercially available.

I see, now I just want to ask you about...

its...you know Professor Block, since I visited

his Institute in 1989, just a few months before

the unification. And...of course, I will not tell about

this small incident which happened when you

took us for a walk after lunch.

But then I made a comment to him the day I was leaving,

so they had said that it is a waste, that this...the East Germany

and West Germany separated.

And then I was sitting,

much later, when I went in '89, I went along with

Professor Pillai as a visiting...

And we were sitting at the front,

that gate and then I said "What a waste,

I think this wall has to come down."

We did not have a camera, we want to

take a photograph, and four months later it came down.

So in fact I have been mentioning that turn

since we would like to do a historical survey of IIT Madras,

So history has been written,

it will be a Diamond Jubilee history, which we are going to write.

The first 30 years, ends in '89,

So, our collaboration was with FRG.

So, '89 onwards it is with Germany,

the unified Germany.

And you remember in '90,

you and I were invited by Professor Knozinger

and his wife, we were guests in a

galas thing somewhere, I think I...

German Consulate had invited us for a party

in the evening, we were both guests of Professor Knozinger

do you remember that? So, Yeah.

yeah. So, Professor Block of course, had come

a few months earlier.

Now, Professor Block

because I mentioned about this wall,

he brought a piece of that wall and presented to us.

Do you have it in the...I passed it on

to you or I passed it on to the Head of the Department,

I don’t remember. No no I recently saw that...that

Where is it? I don’t know now,

but recen...I can locate it. If it is in.

In the...in the if the something with which you can keep. With...with

some...some plastic container or No no it...covered with polythene

can you please...we would like to keep it in Heritage Centre with

Professor Block’s name, if possible, a photograph of Professor Block.

Ok. So, saying that... That, I will locate.

Yeah please, because I was thinking it was in the

Head of the Department.

It was in the Head of the Department

office only, even now it may be in the Head of the Department

because since I was also Head of the...

That is what I am saying. So, therefore, I know I remember to have seen it,

recently also I saw that therefore You check, whether you have in your room,

if not. It is not in my room,

but anyway I will locate it...I will locate it. Please locate and please let us know about that one.

Now, is there something which you would like to

say about the IIT of those days,

when you joined in 1964, and IIT of today?

So, campus wise, the...see the...by way of

the contribution that IIT has made,

because you have spent 50 years

I can tell only up to...when I retired.

Now, as I can tell you, I give a hint also,

one Professor...Professor Ananth, nobody...he said,

that then...since 2000,

the amount of money IIT has been getting, is

enormous, because there is absolutely no problem

about funding. So, many organizations are funding.

So, that is why the research output has also increased,

you can do newer type of research and all that.

So, I mean, I myself telling you,

this is one of the observations that we have made,

do you have any observations you made?

But, this is not anyway I...I don’t want to come. No no personal,

no...no your personal thing you can tell.

Ananth is a well...very knowledgeable person,

but recently I have been asked by a Chinese writer

ok. Recently, recently means two or three days back,

she is trying to compare the performance of...

there is a feeling ok, there is a feeling

that the Indian Science and Technology

has come down in the last two or three years ok,

from...as to be precise, from 2014 onwards.

Has come down? Come down.

Ok. As compared to 2014, 2013...like that.

I see. And she asked, she is going to write it in nature,

this. She is...you know enlisted to write in nature.

So, she asked me...she wanted to...she wanted to get

opinion from people, she is not taking opinion only from me,

some 20 or 30 people from India.

Even Balaraman is one of them. The previous Director of...

but Balaraman declined, I even talked to him,

but he declined. He declined, I see I see.

maybe for some reason, we will not go into all the reason. Yeah.

So, the the conclusion that they...we came,

ok, it is not yet published, so I cannot say this is the conclusion,

but mostly what we are feeling here is,

the Science and Technology that is being practiced today

in India, for example, the new faculty,

let us take only IIT. Ok.

Very small segment.

The research,

I am not denying the research has to be done,

that is not a question.

But what they are doing is,

what they have done in their post-doc, or

whatever they have done in the Western World,

that is what is being practiced here. I see.

So, that is...we...that is why this science was

growing in this country, because we were

practicing what is feasible in this country.

Not only that, new things...new things New things and feasible.

Because the...the people who are directing

the research were from this soil. Yeah.

Now, the people who are directing the research is

displaced people from other places. Yeah yeah.

So, therefore, that...that...the...the, I am not denying these

are all very modern thing. For...for example,

I will tell you an example, the material that

we are now looking for, one of the material is

the oxygen reduction electrode,

it...it is a very exotic electrode ok.

If I know how oxygen is getting reduced,

I know about the life, I can tell you how long I will live,

on what day I will die. What is that? Again.

Oxygen reduction...because...that oxygen

only because we are only consuming oxygen. Yeah.

And the oxygen is combusting our food. Right.

Carbohydrate. Right.

So, therefore, oxygen has to get reduced to O2 minus

O2 Yeah, yeah.

has to get reduced to O2 minus.

This reduction reaction has to be understood.

If this reduction reaction has been understood by our scientist...saints,

that is why they were able to predict when you will

die and all those things. Right.

Now, we are not able to do that. I see I see I see.

So, therefore, the...this is an...it is a very electrochemical

reaction, that is all. Here, two electron transfer,

two...an oxygen atom. It is a four electron transfer,

but we will not go into the details.

So, therefore, this is the...the it has to...it...

is it now available electrode is platinum,

but in our body, there is no platinum.

So therefore, there is some some bio

biomolecule that is doing this.

And we should repeat...repeat that

biomolecule in a...in a material. Yeah.

So, the the material is FeN4,

it is a iron phenanthroline complex. I see.

The phenanthroline is nitrogen containing compound.

So now, four...four ligands of phenanthroline.

Therefore, with the structure of the final compound will be FeN4.

For chemists, it will be a very wonderful material,

because there is no valency, nothing is satisfied here.

So, this FeN4 is a very important material in the United States today.

Anybody who is working on FeN4,

they will be given the grant from NSF.

But we cannot afford to use that,

we...we...we, I even published a paper in 2002 or 2003.

On FeN4. I see.

Showing that it will be a very good oxidation...

oxygen reduction electrode.

This, you will ask me immediately,

even if some few students were asking when they read it,

why you did not continue?

At that time, the facilities were there,

only I can do...only theoretical calculations,

I could not do an experiment at that time. The...

so the...and even today,

we cannot afford to do those those research here,

you can publish. Yeah.

And get some name and all those things,

that is all very different,

but what is there...they...outcome for this country.

Ok, now...again I will...and...it is...see the,

I told you that we had Russian visitors and all that.

You know we were one of those who...

who got at least a catalysis laboratory.

You know, one of the Russians came and spent more than a month or two,

remember the name of that person? Ermakov.

Not Ermakov.

There was a junior scientist,

who came and worked in our lab for 1 month.

I don’t remember.

1979, you were very much there. Yeah, yeah.

I am not able to get his name.

And we...in fact, I introduced him, to nitrous oxide.

I told him...see he was interested in Catalytic Reaction

and all that and I said ok

you...we had...we had purchased all that

the various parts required for building a chromatogram.

So, I told him, you can set up a chromatogram,

and you can show the student.

Then I told him, see,

three or four students are working on nitrous oxide decomposition,

you just get used to that and he worked with them.

He was very...he was very friendly with all the students,

even went with them to part of South India and all that.

I am not able to get his name, but I will tell you,

he was the person who later patented

the oxidation of benzene to phenol, using nitrous oxide.

Now, you remember the name?

But, I know this reaction, benzene to. Yeah, yeah the...he...

the nitrous oxide was the...

he was introduced the nitrous oxide by us

in my...in our laboratory because I told him,

he asked me, "Why are you interested?"

I said one reason we are interested, is a very simple reaction.

So we can do a large number of compounds,

we can investigate and we...it tells us about the

Redox behaviour and so many other things.

Anyway, that was different, you were doing carbon monoxide oxidation,

these were the two things you were developing.

But just remember, the type of catalyst we tried,

or the type of oxides we tried,

they later received importance in materials chemistry.

For example, the cation A4 structures,

and remember you were working on the manganites,

do you remember what we lost in the manganites finally?

That was the... This.

This Nobel Prize has given in 1980s and '90s, manganites. Yeah, yeah.

What was those? Again, I forget.

That is a Perovskite Structure. Perovskite Structure,

you see the...substituted.

Yes. Same thing, cation F4.

I was doing the B-side substitution, whereas,

A side substitution, it was done

and they got the CO3 plus.

CO3 plus, I had also observed it,

but I had no way of checking it,

because I did not have X-Ray photoelectron spectrometer.

Remember, we tried to do that for the first thing with

that student Madhavan? Yes.

So, who is no more. We...we

XPS with that. Yeah, XPS of that.

We actually, even now that is a fertile field,

we looked at the satellite peaks,

not the main peak. Yeah, yeah satellite position that one

that’s what I said, you see there is...see,

do you at any time,

not that one should get a Nobel Prize or anything like that.

If one of the thing which is being

pointed out again and again is,

India has...it says it has done this thing, that thing,

it has not produced Nobel Prize.

And do you believe,

at least because you have worked on various thing,

that then we might have reached a stage,

reached a stage where it was

going to fetch a Nobel Prize, but we did not pursue it.

Ok ok in the in the next few years, we will be...I mean.

No, no it at least even earlier, we had worked on areas,

Yeah, but. Later, we let...we left it out.

Nobel Prize is a very different question Sir,

we will not discuss that one ok. No no not

like that, for not...Nobel

that we got it or not,

because at that level of research,

we have been doing, Yes yes.

That’s exactly what I am asking. Definitely, definitely.

The exactly what I am...just like you said that

somebody in US said that, 67 percent of storage

and you proved that it is nonsense.

Same way, when somebody said a nickel compound

was showing superconductivity,

just like the copper compound, and then,

only two people in the whole world has reported it.

And then I asked one of the co-workers and one of the students,

one of the Professors who reported,

do you agree with that one?

He said, "Whether I agree or not,

my Professor and another Professor,

they claim they have observed it...superconductivity."

I don’t want to name,

it was a nickel compound, corresponding,

not the copper compound, nickel compound

and the...one of the scientist of course, an Indian

another was an American scientist.

So, what I am telling is...that such things do happen.

And I know of times when you were very depressed,

say when you were about to publish something,

or about...and somebody else has done something,

or, you are not able to do something,

because of lack of facilities and all that.

And I think over time you must have got over all those feelings.

So, what is your programme, for the next next

two or three years?

Ok, next to two or three years,

because you may be knowing, that at the moment,

my worry is about the Indian Science, that’s all ok.

That is why we are conducting a course called the Orientation Programme.

Orientation Programme is meant for research scholars,

even the DST has many times ridiculed me,

what you can teach to a Ph. D. student?

Teach. Ok, Ph. D. students will... Students current...

the course were conducting now? Yeah yeah

it is the seventh...18th year.

Continuously 18 years, I have conducted.

Which department?

It is the Catalysis Division, a Catalysis Centre.

Oh, I see, oh I see this catalysis...no.

That is. I not...you are now a guest faculty while coming, so, I thought you were

only doing that. No no no it is a...it is Catalysis Centre,

it was done...done on behalf of the Chemistry Department

from 1999 onwards.

I see. This is the 18th year.

We will, at the at the time I used...because the fund is required,

because the research scholars have to be brought from various places,

Some 30-40 research scholars will be brought here,

kept here for 3 weeks or 4 weeks,

and they will be given an orientation to research in catalysis.

I see. And we have trained about 600 to 700 people

in this 17 courses,

out of which, 300 people are top class research scholars

in the world today, and they are all with...with the

in communication with me,

day to day not a...a stray communication.

I mean... They come on...online and discuss with me,

"I...we...I...I we are doing this research, whether it is...

can you give me some suggestion about that", and all that.

This is spread internationally. Yes

and that is one thing, in...in...it it is not

international because it DST Funding,

because we...we cannot sponsor the candidates from abroad.

No no not candidates the...

The students. The candidates who are trained are abroad now. Yeah

That...the...the students have gone abroad,

because they, Yeah, yeah. They did Ph. D. and all that.

Now, even...even foreign students have attended this course.

When they applied for this course,

I used to tell the, "We will take care of your local expenses."

That is. "But we can we cannot give you the travel allowance,

you manage."

So, they spent from their pocket and attended this course.

Is...from Germany, from USA, from...from Australia.

I see. Is it publicized in any of this?

I do not know, the, but it is even now

it...in the next course is 18th course, its starting on December...

the November 27th.

I see I see I see.

DST has...very well recognized this now.

As a matter of fact, wherever DST exhibits something,

they will talk about this course only,

first...the first to projection will be on this course only.

Oh, I see, I did not know that, I see, anyway I am not.

Anyway the...leave it alone.

So, therefore, this is one thing.

Second thing is, we have...we have now launched

at least about...this year itself, that is be...2017,

we are...we are in the 4th online course.

Nothing is required,

all that you required is a computer that is all.

I see, online.

This is for educating people.

This is the second thing, we are doing.

Third thing that...I...we are doing is,

since I have some facilities to write,

I...I write a many books, even now there is a book,

if I tell you, you will be surprised

that title itself, 'Carbon Dioxide to Chemicals and Fuels'

Right. Because carbon dioxide is a waste, that is what people think.

But, if I were to take the carbon dioxide

and can convert it to...to chemicals and fuels,

I am closing that cycle.

But it is going to be a technology,

30 years from now, or 20 years from now,

but I have written a book now, on that.

And one of the leading publishers of the world,

look...looking at the title, they approved it, nothing else.

Not...they did not even ask me to give a...

usually they ask two or three chapters.

Yeah. They...the...the top manager told,

"No no, we don’t want any chapter from you."

Oh. "We are agreeing to publish it,

so, you complete the book and send it to us."

I see ok, now, I know that right from the inception,

up to now, you are connected with the

Catalysis Society of India,

in various capacities, and it...it’s continuing.

Now, what will be the future, of course,

you are leaving it in good hands and going.

You must have conducted a lot of QIP programmes,

and FIP programmes and all that.

So as you say, we are now doing this Orientation Programme

which is...now you also were involved

some time...about the Library Science, in the sense

before all this...the present thing of talking about the...

what is that...citation index and what is the number?

Impact number. Impact factor. Yeah, I know

all that even before that...that American who was

bringing out that Current Contents, what is his name?

The person who started all this

along with Arunachalam. Yeah, yeah Arunachalam.

One person, I forget the name of that,

he visited IIT once. Yeah, yeah.

So, he visited and you had arranged a lecture.

He just now passed away.

I see I see. two...one...one year back.

Great man, some starting with G or something like that.

Yeah. I am forgetting the name, and you had written some

ways of classification and all that,

you have written some books also, I mean...articles on that.

Now what is your...that number?

Citation...Impact Factor.

Impact Factor, what is your impact factor?

Not impact factor, that number,

the number of times the paper is quoted,

so, what. That is what is the...for the journal, it is Impact Factor,

for the individual, it is Citation Index.

Now? Now, it is also there Google...Google is doing that.

No no no not I am not talking of this

impact factor, the citation index,

but then from that you derive another thing.

There are many other term terms that can. No, no

that is you; I saw. Immediacy index is one of them.

How, how immediacy is your research is there.

So, in then...for example, if I publish a paper today,

the next two years, whether it is seen...seen or not.

I see, I see that also is there. That is...yeah yeah yeah,

this is called immediacy index,

there are many index indices. No no, but you have

you...other day I was asking you you told me something your

number. There are many many many.

No no more than 70, what is that one?

What is the number, number of papers have been quoted

so many times. Yeah, yeah.

What is that number known as?

What is that you...

That is. You are talking of the impact, I am not talking of the impact factor.

Impact factor is for the journals.

Journal. So, it is not citation index,

based on the citation index,

you evaluate a number,

that is yours its coming to 70 or something like, that

you are telling scholastic.

I don’t remember now.

We got Professor C. N. R. Rao’s 300.

Yeah, yeah I remember that.

What is that number? What is that number known as?

How is it your also forget the number...

that’s a number which everybody quotes,

Because for Bhatnagar Award, you should have at least 25.

Yeah, yeah. So, I remember that one,

that’s why I am asking here.

And if you are more...you were

fellow of more than two Indian academies, the,

I think the Government will give some 50000, 15000 rupees or so,

I think, possibly DST give, I don’t remember.

So, that is something many people would like to...

are trying to get.

Mister Kumaran, I wanted to ask some questions to...

Kumaran Sathasivam: Yes, Sir. Sir, can I ask you about

Kumaran: what IIT’s reputation was in '64 when you joined it,

Kumaran: as an M. Sc. graduate, how did you...

Kumaran: what was your perception of IIT at that point because

Kumaran: in that student circle,

Kumaran: was it well known as an excellent institute as...? Oh, no no.

Kumaran: And how did you apply and what happened? Yes,

Kumaran: I just wanted to know about that, Sir. I applied because

I knew one of the Professors in Madras University at that time,

he recommended me to join IIT,

because he came and taught me in M. Sc. in Saint Joseph’s.

So, B. S Thyagarajan, he only introduced me to IIT.

So, when I...when I came, I...

I have seen all the convocations in this Institute. Yes.

From '64 onwards.

Oh very good, very good. Ok

so, the...anyway that is a different thing.

Yes. So, at that time, IIT,

especially IIT Madras ok,

I will talk about IIT Madras because IIT Madras is one of the top IITs,

there is no doubt about that ok.

So, at that time, IIT Madras was not very well known.

So, therefore, those of us who are the first few batches,

we have to make an advertisement for IIT Madras.

I have made some...that attempt also.

For example, in the rural areas at that time,

the JEE was not even known.

Kumaran: Yes. The, the village from which I am coming,

it is a very...very knowledgeable village,

but the...they did not know the JEE.

In the...in the...the first batch or second batch,

the M. Sc. is the...B. Tech. students,

at least five or six of them are because I told them to write the JEE.

Kumaran: Ok. That is how the IIT glo...glory comes,

I am not see claiming that I did the whole thing ok,

that is how the IIT glory of...IIT Madras glory came up.

The...the because at that time, we were coming from villages,

and...villagers were not even knowing that there is an IIT.

And they even if they know IIT,

they did not know how to apply for JEE

and...write the JEE

because JEE system, even today,

because even now I am...is somewhere connected with the JEE

ok. JEE is not with IIT now,

the main paper, it is with the Government

Secondary Education Board,

but anyway we will not talk about all those things.

So, therefore, JEE is a different...

different cup of tea for all...all the Indians,

that must be very...very clearly known to us.

So, therefore, the people from the villages,

they did not know about JEE at that time.

Now it is known...that...that is because now it is 50 years.

Kumaran: Yes. So, at that time the JEE was not even known.

In spite of the fact, my village is one of the well...well...

well exposed to other...other areas.

Kumaran: And...and you chose to join a relatively new institution in

Kumaran: in favour of a larger organization. When, I...

when I...when I joined, Kumaran: Yes.

There was no room, only cement bags were there.

Kumaran: I see. I see.

I...I...I do not know whether you remember,

I sat in a room, where in a...in a...in a...one side of the room

only cement bags will be there.

Kumaran: I see. With the cement.

Kumaran: This...this was BSB Sir?

No no...HS...HSB.

You. No he...by the time we joined, we had moved to HSB. HSB right.

He have had moved to HSB. Right.

Now, they...the...the things were getting added,

there was no German equipment I think,

one by one we started getting by other fundings.

But our laboratory was

better equipped than mess...most of the laboratories

and I...I hope you will not mistake me,

if I raise one of his hands for your sake.

See this finger,

his interest in the laboratory,

one day he started a motor,

and then the motor was not starting.

And he didn't see that the switch is on

and he started rotating,

his...his finger got...under got cut.

And then it was collected...it was thrown,

it was collected put in liquid nitrogen,

he was rushed to the railway hospital.

But, unfortunately, by that time I think it was

it had decom...I mean the...it has started deteriorating.

So, they could not...

I mean I always remember you know,

a part of that finger is gone,

it happened in the HSB laboratory. So...so

Kumaran: So, what was the. Thank you.

Kumaran: Can, I can I just add a few more questions, Sir? Please ask.

Kumaran: What was the procedure for selection to a Ph. D.

Kumaran: you joined the Ph. D. programme when you came to IIT first

Kumaran: and who are the staff members who,

Kumaran: I mean the faculty members who interviewed you and.

At that time. Kumaran: I mean Director.

At that time, the three stalwarts in the Chemistry...or four stalwarts

M. V. C. Sastri, J. C. Kuriacose,

V. Srinivasan and C. N. Pillai, Aravamudan

these are the five people who grilled us.

Really grilled us. And also we have this examination,

at that time also the same type of examination,

and the examination is...used to be very very tough.

Actually, even now I remember Kuriacose to...

Did you have viva voce or?

Viva...not viva voce, written examination only.

Oh, you had a written exam I see...I see.

Five papers we have to write. Alright.

So to. No no for joining the IIT thing

you need not... No, no.

Joining was only interview. Joining only...joining was interview only.

Yeah. Not written exam.

Yeah. Right.

But after joining, the qualification

for...for example, Kuriacose paper,

none of us pay...passed, only I passed.

Ok. All the three of us, three of us we were there in the...in that batch,

only I passed, that too because I took a challenge with him.

Kumaran: And about your wardenship, you said you had a

Kumaran: term as warden,

Kumaran: how many years and which hostels you were in?

So, ok I...I spent first as a Assistant Warden,

Cauvery, Krishna, then as warden in Ganga Hostel,

then as Chairman Counsil of Wardens.

So, therefore, nearly 30 years I was associated with... Kumaran: Ok. The hostels.

You were also connected with Gymkhana.

Yeah, yeah Gymkhana Cultural Advisor,

Weaker Section Advisor,

many...many roles. No, you were,

I think in this sports day this one,

his photograph has been put in the...

on the...in our...the portico.

I...because. You can. I was Dean Students also.

Dean Students...I Dean Students I think he was.

Kumaran: Right. Be in that so.

I occupied all positions in this Institute. Right, right.

Is there that person there? So...

Kumaran: Yes, yeah.

Is there anything you want to ask him you are.

And B. V., Some of your...some of the books

that you have written, and if you have a spare copy,

at least general books, not exactly on subject

things that we would very much like to have it in the Heritage Centre

and we don’t mind buying it also,

he is prepared to buy it,

but then if you can give it Yes. As a...this one

because we are collecting, you are an alumnus,

so, as an alumni, we would like to collect all those books.

Spoken to you and then elicited lot of information

and I think, if there was another chance,

I would have spent a few more hours with you talking about this.

Thank you very much.

Sir, thank you. Thank you, thank you very much for giving me this opportunity.

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Prof. N. Rajagopalan and Prof. R. Radhakrishnan in conversation with Prof. Kalyana Raman (Retd. faculty, Dept. of Civil Engineering)

We are here today

to record the Oral History Programme

with the Heritage Centre

with Professor R. Radhakrishnan

and Professor N. Rajagopalan

from the Civil Engineering Department.

I am Kalyanaraman from also from Civil Engineering Department,

very thankful to you for joining us this afternoon sir.

Professor Radhakrishnan you are one of the

earliest faculty to join the institute way back.

So, will you please give a brief outline

of how you joined the institute,

what your background was prior to joining the institute.

At the time of your joining

there was an interview. Yes.

Can you, can you briefly play out

what was - how you were interviewed

in those days for a faculty? To be very frank

first time I was interviewed in Vice Chancellor's chamber, it's called, A. L. Mudaliar was the Vice Chancellor

he was the Chairman of the Board of Governors.

so the meeting was held in the interview was held in

Madras University, Vice Chancellor's chamber they call it.

I think first time I was not selected,

second round second time only I was selected;

I don’t know the reason for that one.

Second time also I applied

the main reason for that one was

at that time Madras University had 70 percent and above was

First Class, no I got 74.5. I was put in Second Class.

So, I remember quite remember asked me

I got this one class called First Class, do you know?

Yes, sir I don’t know what happened,

then we reshuffled our degrees,

they made it 60 percent First Class

and we were given First Class degree.

So, second time when I came for an interview,

I was First Class MSc,

this 1st rank, of course, that is always there

they don’t bother about 1st rank,

they want First Class at that time.

So, I was not selected first time,

second time I was selected. So, who were all the

who were all there in the committee selection committee? Committee at the time

A. L. Mudaliar was Chairman here. Professor -

Doesn’t matter if you don’t remember.

I remember But

were they Chief Engineer Madras ...

Chief - everybody was there I remember.

Where it says tested at that time more for your

teaching abilities or research abilities when they interviewed? No, only teaching.

Only teaching ability. Research abilities.

It was a time when as I just interviewed

Abraham was the Chief Engineer of Tamil Nadu

and A. L. Mudaliar was the Chairman.

See as far I am concerned

I joined institute in 61, December.

At this at that time Civil Engineering faculty

strength was 7. I was the 8th faculty to join.

And, earlier I was in Irrigation Research Station

Pundi as a PWD staff member.

Back in 59 when the institute was inaugurated

at CLRI campus, I was a

student leader of College of Engineering, Guindy.

So, I was invited for it ... as a student

when we see such a big function, was elated

and saying that I should become a member of IIT,

that was my motivation.

And, I didn’t know about how teaching is

going to be or how research is going to be

or industry going to be.

But with all that that A. L. Mudaliar was there,

Nehru was there to inaugurate - Jawaharlal Nehru

was there - Pandit Nehru, for I was motivated to come.

From Pundi I applied here

and I was only B.Tech degree holder

that is a BE degree holder,

BE Honours was the degree

for me because after certain about 66.56 percent

you are getting a degree called BE Honours of

the then Madras University College of Engineering Guindy,

as one of the rank holders and therefore,

I was called in for interview.

The interview was at CLRI

because there is nothing here, interview was CLRI.

The Director Sengupto was the Chairman,

A. L. Mudaliar could not come on that day

and it was even for the Associate Lecturer's

position the Chairman of the Interview Committee

was the Chairman of the Board of Governors.

And, the expert member I do remember

happens to be my own professor at

College of Engineering, Guindy.

It was Professor V. Kalyanaraman

and I was pleasantly surprised to see

a known figure on that panel.

And I was the first Associate Lecturer to be selected

at college at IIT Madras

and afterwards, within 6 months from that day,

the rank of Associate Lecturer was made temporary.

Therefore, we had only 3 Associate Lecturers

in the institute as permanent Associate Lecturers.

And I was the one amongst them

and the first amongst them,

I joined the department there were only 8, 7 faculties;

I joined as 8th and I was the youngest

of the faculty members of there.

And, afterwards the department developed

and my motivation I have already told you

because of that meeting,

that made me come to this place.

So, you have said you attended the

inaugural programme of the institute

in you know where was this held? At CLRI campus.

So. It is between A. C. College and CLRI,

no in CLRI and A. C. College. A. C.

Yes, it's a big area open,

even now there is an auditorium there.

At that place a big pandal was erected

and Pandit Nehru was there to inaugurate.

As a student member

I was invited for that and I went there.

Do you remember anything that

professor you know Nehru said on that day of inauguration

anything that I was too so young for that to understand

that what he is talking about. Ok.

But, he was talking about

see originally he made one mention -

College of Engineering, Guindy, was

to be upgraded to IIT,

that was the first intention.

When the IIT system was thought of

when it is a, as it was announced that meeting, Kamaraj wanted

two good institutes in Madras itself,

that is at that time Madras, Chennai

that’s Tamil Nadu, Chennai and all were not there.

Two good institute he said that

we would have one more institute

and that will be institute of technology that’s how

we got IIT Chennai separately,

otherwise it would have been

College of Engineering upgraded to - I mean IIT Madras.

But, it was decided to have that

and that's - that was mentioned in the meeting,

when, it was I think it is the Education Minister

it is C. Subramaniam I suppose.

I don’t remember the name of that time,

but the main aim is to have one more institute.

And, I think as you said Kamaraj was

one main force behind IIT Madras coming.

Coming to Chennai. Chennai.

Not only that actually the this thing

the reason is not that correct

in the government wanted to have the administration control.

Central government. Yes, no the state government.

Administration control they wanted to have it

which the Central government refused. Central government.

So, IIT was started, otherwise I would have gone to

Guindy Engineering College. Ok.

That is the main reason. Ok.

Now, the both of you did not have a PhD

Yes, yes. when you joined IIT Madras.

Thing things have changed a lot

since then, now things are very different. Yes.

Can you go through your joining this department,

how you had to qualify yourself

to be in a PhD, both of you got

PhD. Actually, it is really interesting

I got only BE degree - BE Honours degree -

when I joined, then I found that

all of theirs faculty members are MSc

and I wanted to qualify myself for MSc

and ask for leave just after 1 year.

And, that time they said we are going to start M.Tech

and you, you can do part time M.Tech,

that was the assurance given by the

then Director and Registrar Natarajan,

I met him personally

and both the Director and Registrar, they said

why don’t you do it here?

Because, to get an admission at Anna University,

that is then College of Engineering, Guindy,

for a postgraduate programme

the admission is based on so many reservations,

it's very difficult.

I was fortunate to get one;

therefore, I was pleading that I should get that,

the second is at that time it is 18 months

programme for a postgraduate at

College of Engineering, Guindy.

Whereas, an IIT started the programme

started straight away with 2 years;

that means, I will be studying for 6 more months

they said for part time, it will take 3 years for you,

for was one and a half years

I was going to be delayed, if the degree is that.

I pleaded and they said, no, we cannot send

a faculty member of IIT

to College of Engineering, Guindy. Right.

If at all, you have to resign.

I didn’t feel like resigning and therefore,

I stayed back for I was the first

part-time M.Tech student of IIT Chennai

and IIT Madras.

In Madras IIT Madras.

Even today it is IIT Madras Chennai only.

IIT Madras Civil Engineering

Department or IIT Madras itself Civil Engineering.

IIT Madras Civil Engineering Department. Ok.

It was the ... then the Head of the Department

was also one C. G. Swaminathan

was the Head of the Department,

when I was interviewed.

By the time I joined in December

He left. C. G. Swaminathan has left

and Professor K. A. Shankaran was the

man in charge of the department,

he was an Assistant Professor.

And it was in 62 Professor Varghese joined

Professor - May, June of - Varghese.

For the Structural Engineering,

whether to start a Postgraduate in

Structural Engineering was in question.

Because, Professor Rouvé was the professor in hydraulics

and therefore, they were sure to have

a Postgraduate in Hydraulics

and Water Resource, there was only Hydraulic Engineering,

but when Varghese joined the as

Head of the Department they started structures also.

It was a - it was a tough time for me

whether to join Hydraulics as well as or structures.

Since I was in Irrigation Research Station Pundi earlier,

Rouvé wanted me to join Hydraulics

whereas, I wanted to stay in Structural Engineering.

So, after lot of discussions I came to

Structural Engineering, that was a

part-time program for an M.Tech.

At that time PhD programs were not there

at all in the institute

because there are not enough research

Degree holders in the institute as faculty members.

If I remember correct, total faculty

strength was less than 100,

all accommodated in Building Sciences

Block - only less than 100.

I would say that Civil Engineering had 8,

Mechanical Engineering may have about 11 to 12

and that’s all the department.

And, all ... not many

I don’t say even 1 or 2 had PhD in that;

only in Science Departments

Professor M.V.C. Sastry, Professor Rama Sastry

and Mathematics professor at that time S. K. Srinivisan

and earlier team is. Adiga.

Das, Das in this case. They were the persons

who were having PhD degrees.

Hence, there was no question of research

being started at that age.

This should be guided by - Guided

There is no research guidance facility,

though the ideas were there.

If I can talk a little more on that,

it was that the period was stated

to be by Professor Sengupto,

let us stabilize education,

B.Tech degree education goes

and development of the institute;

that was his intentions of having

the first few years' activities in IIT Madras.

Yeah. Hence, the research was such

was started little later

when A. Ramchandran took over as the Director.

We will come to the research also.

So, you went on finish your M Tech.

yeah and then went on to - when did you do your PhD?

After M.Tech, I stayed for 3 years as lecturer here,

then I was...there is a Institute Scholarship

for DAAD: Scholarship for faculty members

and it is for 1 year, extendable for one more year,

2 years. In fact, very many faculty member at that time

Yeah went on to do

Went on to do PhD in this thing.

Not PhD, they were...the contract

or the agreement signed between

the German government and Indian government

is that they will finish that PhD only in India

and they will get the degree only

in Indian Institute of Technology

and they can have their training in Germany.

Accordingly, all the members

who went there were going there for 1 year

a little more than that,

but I was keen in doing a PhD there.

Therefore, I didn’t go through this institute route.

Secondly, amongst the Civil Engineering staff,

I was the junior most.

Hence, the chances of getting into that

group is also, was very difficult.

For I went through the Government of India’s

scholarship scheme, wherein there were

at least 10 candidates were selected per year

to sent, to be sent to Germany.

I was one selected in that group

and therefore, I went to Germany in 1970, 69 and 70.

And, I decided to do PhD.

There was also some difficulty because,

the department has given me leave for 1 year

as usual for then, 6 months extra

then I said I would prefer to go on - leave on -

Loss of pay. - loss of pay,

but the institute said no, as a policy

we should go leave with pay for 18 months.

I went there and then I used the influence

of the professor at Germany

to get it extended for next 6 months they gave me,

the institute also paid me for the second year.

When I applied for the third year institute,

then Registrar C. V. Sethunathan

sent a very very strong reply,

very strong for me as an youngster.

Said that you better return to the India immediately

or get out to this institute immediately,

you choose between these two;

such was the wordings of that letter.

I showed him to my then professor at Germany

he...see, he with all this experience

for me it was not a - rather than a threat,

for him it was enjoyable joke.

And, he said don’t bother we will make you -

He talked to the German consulate

and also the German Ministry

and he said that I have decided to

offer him a PhD here, Dr-Ing here;

please tell me the procedure

by which we can get it done.

They said the procedure is, as far as

we are concerned, we have no problem.

But, we have problem from the Indian government.

The Indian government again refused to say

that you cannot get a degree from Germany,

you should get a degree only from India.

And therefore, they said extended

the scholarship for 6 more months,

2 years and 6 months, please advise him

to go back to India for

doing to completing his research.

And I was keen in getting a German degree,

I told my German professor

if that is the case I would resign from IIT Chennai.

Then also a letter came saying that

if you were to resign, you have to pay back the

salaries paid to you for two and half years.

It's a very huge sum for me

and therefore, as in a dilemma

once again the professor,

German professor came into discussions.

He wrote to the Indian government that ... the ...

if the main aim of IIT is to,

for development of academic activities,

I should see that this letter is withdrawn.

And, it was the Director then A. Ramachandran

who said yes the letter is withdrawn

and I was asked to do that.

But, Government of India

refused to give me scholarship,

because they said that as per the

agreement between two ministries,

we are not supposed to give

for more than two and half years.

For the - I was supported by the Department of

Civil Engineering or Structural Engineering

in Stuttgart University.

And they gave me assistantship for 6 months

and I completed in 3 years

and one of the shortest period, completed in 3 years.

And also last 2 months because the

viva voce or what we call it as viva voce

there they say, that’s called a mündliche Prüfung mündliche

Prüfung and that was delayed

and they said for the 2 months

professor himself gave his support for me,

personal support from his consultancy assignment

for completed and then he came back to me.

He was also offering me a job in India

in his company which was

having a work at Calcutta, cable-stayed bridge;

he can say that you can go and join there.

I said no, the institute has done me so much,

I would not like to leave the institute

and came back and joined institute.

And at that time there was a small back home

the Director Ramachandran left the institute

and Professor Sampath was holding incharge

and the director's position was not defend,

interviews were held, number of selections were made.

And afterwards the final, of course,

I was not interviewed,

but selected in the - based on my application.

I joined here - the - the date of joining

the rank of Assistant Professor declared,

but I was not allowed to join as Assistant Professor

because I left the institute as lecturer.

I was join - asked to this - join as lecturer

then I got the Assistant Professor

and then the actual research for activity

as that is the PhD research then the,

my own research is only from that onwards.

Sir how about you sir, you also joined with an MS

and then you got a PhD.

That was in engineering, Structural Engineering

College of Engineering, Guindy.

So, after that, here as so the registration was there.

Of course, we have few people

after - Dr. Professor Varghese joined the department.

So, one PhD must be there - they guided

and we registered for PhD.

So, first batch of students,

staff members sent to Germany.

I was one among them,

but it was only for 1 year.

See, I have, we have to get trained, do the work

and then complete it,

come here and complete that's the condition.

So, of course, I was having a family

So, I didn’t want to continue there forever.

So, 1 year it was extend for another 3 months,

I was in Brunswick.

After 4 months language course in small village

where the population was about 1000,

400 people and 600 cows.

Then I went back to ... Brunswick,

where my, it was Brunswick institute was

connected with this Structural Engineering Department:

Professor Eibl, Professor Kordina, all those things were there.

So, I was there doing my research work there.

I completed almost except the major part of it

the small or the other one I have finished.

And I came back with all my things in 19-

I think I went in - even forgot - 67 I went,

69 April I came back,

but it took some time for me

to complete because that model

I have to make a real model

and then very small this one

and then it is a big shell

actually it is a mathematical cum

this one Experimental life.

Experimental. Both very difficult

Actually I forgot ... you didn’t mention the name of the

institute where you do PhD.

I did my PhD in the University of Stuttgart. Stuttgart.

Institute (unclear) University of Stuttgart

So, I was from Brunswick I came there.

It took quite some time for me to complete the work.

Of course, after that

the ... those days two Germans must be from abroad,

not in IIT one Indian one foreign now.

At that time both exams was abroad

and then the viva will be conducted in India by two examiners.

So, one examiner was very quick

in sending his report then 2, 3 months

I got my the other examiner took just 2 years.

2 years again Yes.

ok. That is only a luck,

there can’t, before that everybody

who went after me to Germany got their doctorates

and got their promotions, everything else - I was -

Ok. The - the - flavor of the department

or the constitute of the department

that you joined when you mentioned that

there were only 7 faculties.

7 - 8 - 8 faculty along including And - and - from you are including.

And in the early stages you know

how was the department?

You know today the department is probably about 50 you know. Yes.

Yeah. So, how was the department in those days?

See, there's only a Civil Engineering Department as a whole,

now, we have Structural Engineering Wing,

Water Resources Wing etcetera,

there are only Civil Engineering Department.

Those 8 consisted of 2 - 1 person from Hydraulics,

1 Assistant Engineer who was working as

Assistant Engineer in this institute

was also teaching here leading to

I mean Estimation and such subjects, he is doing that.

There is no recognized person in Environmental Engineering,

actually 1 Hydraulics man was there - Panduranga Rao,

in Survey 1 man was there, Nagaraja was there. Nagaraja.

Structures, friend Radhakrishnan was there

and Dr. D he was again not Dr. Victor,

he was Mr. Victor Johnson, he was there

and so, from Soil Mechanics

and Highways put together

was under the control of Professor Shankaran Shankaran.

that was. This was the earliest of the faculty

members in the department Yeah.

as we know it. Actually I was - I joined

the department 63, 68. Yes.

And, I think you were a faculty

at that time and even I was a faculty at that time,

I do remember that I have

taught you one course on Structural Analysis. Yes.

Myself, I mean I taught

and I could remember your face

as well as M. S. Venugopal.

Yes. Who happened to do his PhD along with me

and you two were the quote unquote Yeah.

"Bright students of the class"

which I was, very well remembering that.

Now, there was good, very good this one,

I had very good innings in

Civil Engineering Department no doubt about it.

To give a small example,

last year I was going - I was in Bangalore,

my son is in Bangalore.

I was in Bangalore, I was going in Namma rail,

Namma Metro I was just travelling

with first batch Sujith Chandra,

who was a board member

and railway board member. Railway board member.

He came to me and said he was very much

attached to me, I don't know the reason,

he said we will go sir

he was in charge of structural of

you know. No, I would very easily

say. Namma Metro.

So, we were going.

So, we were going the train

myself, Sujith Chandra, and V. R. Nagaraja;

the man who I helped him in survey in those days,

because he has some language problem,

he is a Karnataka man;

suddenly one student came,

sir do you remember me?

So, suddenly if you ask me how do I remember.

Sir, I was your student in IIT Civil Engineering,

my name is so and so, thank you very much.

So, he was so happy and then at the end

you know what he did,

sir I should like to take a selfie with you.

Good, thank you very much.

I think many many faculties from the institute,

they do; this just happen you know

people suddenly happen. Train.

Suddenly at train. See actually there are only 16 students

in the first batch,

for everybody there are only 8 faculties and 16 students.

So, staff ratio is 1 is to 2

and you are so, closely associated

and my advantage is

my age group was very near to them.

Therefore, I was to be fact

one of the students who finished his

BA Honours in Mathematics,

when I was intermediate

he was my classmate intermediate.

He finished his BA Honours

and come and joined BE B.Tech here,

by then I joined as a faculty.

Therefore that was the intimacy of the student faculty,

it is very interesting for us.

In fact, even the campus was very small I remember.

Very small. Very very small

I remember that you know the

that the hostel that came into existence.

Cauvery and Krishna. Cauvery and Krishna.

Tapti hostel. No.

And Tapti came later.

Yeah, when I joined.

Professor Shankaran was the warden of the hostel.

Oh. You know when I joined

Professor Shankaran was the warden of the hostel.

No, it was - The ... actually, in those days

how was the department academic structure

different from later? For example,

as you were mentioning that - that -

the Director was concentrating on building an institute,

so, very many of you were involved in

building the departments of the institute,

can you share your experiences in that ...

No, I was 61 I joined

67 I was sent to present abroad.

In the meantime, the 6 years, the department was

very well coming up, only in teaching.

There was no absolutely research is fully

Yes but teaching labs were coming up

Yeah. So, you were involved in

that kind of - Yes exactly already I was doing that

So (unclear) I have been to actually

Materials, Metallurgy. Applied Mechanics

So, concrete lab was there

and the other small laboratories (unclear)

because, there's no space.

The Building that was Science Department

only bottom was there

so one more information, Kalyan

that is, at that time

Civil Engineering was not assured of the aid

from the German government.

That’s why other departments had the laboratories developed

by the German assistants,

where Civil Engineering only

Hydraulic section had the German aid.

We didn’t have it.

For the development of the

concrete laboratory as well as -

it was not Structures Laboratory -

Concrete Laboratory with facilities

to test success was developed by indigenous things

and all for it was really slow in its development.

I remember even when I was a student,

we did not have a Structures Lab. It came up subsequently.

73 only we gained Structures Laboratory,

at that time it is in 1970 the German aid for the

Structural Engineering was assured. Yeah.

And that time only Professor

Plähn was the person. Ok.

And, Karl Kordina from the Brunswick,

where Professor Radhakrishnan was there,

was the coordinator from that place

and Plähn did the development of the laboratory here.

Can you just for example,

from, let us go a long distance

from the time you joined to the time

the department you left,

can you just - still - what were the major changes

that you yourself experienced in the process?

That is I - 61 I joined 93 I left,

32 years. I was only in the Civil Engineering Department.

So, the department in 1961 was not even there. Yes.

And when you went in 1992

you had the Structures Lab?

Structures And probably even

had the Dynamics Lab, is also already Yes

So, there is a change -

so. I had my students in Dynamics only.

For PhD. 2 students they did.

Actually one military man was there

I think, Ambodkare Right

I met him even last time, Mysore,

he is there, still. Both father and son

took degree on same day: he took his PhD,

his son took his B.Tech another day. Bachelor.

So, this development was very good

very fast at that time we can say

because, the early stage always we go very fast,

beginning. So, I can say I was very lucky also

you can say, you can say fortunate also,

but one thing was, I couldn't digest

still is the delay of my PhD, terrific it was.

I had the worst part of it that time,

it took nearly 4 years.

Submission to get the degree, nearly-

There is - there are students today

who take 6 years to finish PhD. No

No, no no 4 years from the date of submission

to award the degrees. Award, understand.

That is the period.

No, but total - total time was how much?

Total time I joined the middle 61, I joined.

PhD programme, you joined the PhD programme,

but Germany - from that time

to From that time, 67 to 72, 5 years only.

Because 72, I got my degree. 5 years.

So 5 years No, no, many people took it in

two, two and half years.

I understand but at those days -

Yes. But there is a - The thing is no the reason is I tell you, very frank,

there is nothing wrong in the -

it depends upon whom the thesis -

When thesis goes to. Yes.

That is the main thing.

So, one man sends it within few months,

other man sends in few years

So that- that helps a lot

Your experience in terms of

how you changed the department See,

changed - the department, see...

Can I go? As I joined, I was also

put in charge of the Concrete Laboratory.

The Concrete Laboratory was the

smallest material testing laboratory.

Therefore, we... whatever equipment

available in India, we were able to procure.

Money was not a problem for (unclear)

Only thing is, getting it abroad for major equipments

Sorry. we had difficulties.

In 70s whereas, in Hydraulics and Water Resources,

the German aid was there.

And, hence the ... a full fledged Hydraulics

Engineering Laboratory was built up,

as the one is the workshop based like that,

wave flumes came up

and lot of experimental facilities

with German equipment coming in was developed.

Whereas, the other laboratories

it took time. There was one senior faculty

who came from Madras University,

there College of Engineering Coimbatore,

Professor Dr. Mr. Muttayya who was very much active

in getting models or the specimens for Geology. Yeah.

And with his personal influence

he could develop the Geology Laboratory.

That is a - We used that. I remember still

the Geology course where we have - Geology Laboratory

with his personal influence

and he was more motivated as a teacher -

he had also written a book on that -

and he developed the Geology Laboratory.

It may may not be bad to talk about Dr. Muttayya

because I remember him as a student,

he is one who took lot of interest in Geology area.

But, he was also active on the campus

you know, in those days

there used to be a canteen.

He was in charge of the student

canteen. No, he started a cooperative society.

Cooperative store. Cooperative society.

So in fact, we as students used to

be able to buy books and things like that

from the cooperative store,

we used to get that book. No no,

Muttayya, he has at least - he has

at least about 20 years of experience

before he joined here,

at teaching at Coimbatore Institute.

And, in engineering institute

of recently good repute,

I mean a reasonably good repute.

Therefore, he knows the necessities of the students.

And he was well poised with the students

and he started a cooperative society for books,

and stationeries and all,

which the students found it very comfortable.

And, he was monitoring it

and he used to sit late in the evening

in the cooperative canteen

no, cooperative stores Stores.

and it was so economical for the students

to get the things from there,

one cheap and available in our campus itself.

In fact, those notebooks used to Thus.

have the IIT Madras printed on top of it.

Among the students in the city

it was a prestige to carry those notebooks.

So, I remember some of my friends from the other colleges

they had to come and buy the notebooks

from the cooperative store and take it out

and flaunt their institute,

I remember that. It was in - that was also in Building Sciences Block.

No, no, the -

Is laid outside - ...is in that. That was very interesting.

The Structural Engineering section -

I was talking about Hydraulics

and Geology Laboratory developed.

So also, Soil Mechanics which was

partly Highways and Soil Mechanics.

Since, the staff member or the person

who was in charge of Soil Mechanics

came from Central Road Research Institute;

therefore, the development started

in the Highways section first,

because Road Research Institute -

he was Professor Shankaran was

so much involved in the Road Research.

Therefore, the bitumen Highways Laboratory started

and it developed more than Soil Mechanics Laboratory.

Therefore, the next laboratory which came in

in a bigger way was Highways Laboratory.

Of course, Concrete Laboratory was developed

reasonably well because the equipments

available more in Chennai itself.

Therefore, we could purchase that.

That was the development of survey.

In 70, when the grant came

from the German government

for the Civil Engineering Laboratory,

Professor Plähn was nominated

or was sent to this place by Professor Karl Kordina

to take - to be in charge in the laboratory.

And, reasonably good coordination

with Professor Plähn, Professor Varghese.

Professor Varghese did not interfere in that

and he was just allowing Plähn to develop the laboratory.

Then Professor P. S. Rao who joined in 1967,

who was put in charge of that laboratory

from the Indian side. He had already got experience.

He had already got the experience from the Munich laboratory

where he did his PhD and he knows all the facilities

which is Munich laboratory.

Therefore, he wanted to have a replica of the

Munich University Laboratory, University of Munich Laboratory

under Professor Rüsch, that was one.

And, Professor Leonhardt came to India

on a - for a specific conference in Coimbatore,

he visited Madras and stayed about 5 days here.

And therefore, his input and also gave the facilities of

the development of laboratory as -

give - as done in Autograph Institute in Stuttgart,

for this particular laboratory was having the input from Karl

Kordina’s laboratory at Brunswick,

Professor Rüsch's ideas from Munich

and Professor Leonhardt’s ideas from Stuttgart.

But the model, the physical layout of the laboratory

is from that of Brunswick and it was done that way.

There was also an idea

whether to have a strong floor which is a -

which is a self straining system, but that was dropped out

and then we had a strong floor on the top

and supported by walls in the basement.

So, the basement could be used

for storing or some other purpose.

That’s the first laboratory.

Meanwhile, we had developed indigenously

structural testing systems in the

Concrete Laboratory itself which were then moved

to the Structural Engineering Laboratory.

And the advantage we had was

Professor T. P. Ganeshan and Dr. T. P. Ganeshan who was also

only Mr. T. P. Ganeshan didn’t do his doctorate,

he came from Highways Research Station at Chennai at Guindy.

And Highways Research Station in Tamil Nadu

was one of the - not in Tamil Nadu - in India,

it was the best Highways Research Station is in Tamil Nadu.

They had a big workshop also

and a workshop which can be thread

diameter say about 40 mm.

Diameter rod can be threaded easily.

We got it threaded at that place

and brought it here for making a self-straining frame

which would have not been possible,

if had not been T. P. Ganeshan there

and HRS available for us now.

These are all certain advantages with recruiting faculty who are

already in service somewhere.

Professor Ganeshan, Dr. Ganeshan moved

from HRS, therefore, we had the facilities of HRS also available

not with great difficulty, but easily we could get that now.

For things moved positively

in way in Structural Engineering Department with that laboratory

came into existence in 1973 March I suppose.

May I just interfere? I remember, some of the colleagues

subsequently when I joined the department,

I remember some of the colleagues

of my age had physically worked in

the laboratory setting up and it is just you know.

There That I was telling you.

Professor Aravindan. There are three associate lectures.

Aravindan, B. V. Subramanyam And Achyutha.

Achyutha - they were all - they worked up to midnight,

not even early morning hours for pouring concrete,

checking the concrete because the thickness of the floor,

the accuracy with which the holes

where the rods have to be threaded in

and it is - it should carry a 10 tons force.

Therefore, the accuracy was very important

and it was not given to the mechanics of the floor.

It was given to the faculty members

and therefore, faculty members were

working along with the mechanics.

Yeah, remember. I was given time morning 4 to 8,

I ask Varghese why you are using

I know you get up very early in the morning.

So, you come at 3 o’clock and be here.

So, faculty members physically present Present

ensured that the labs came you know.

That’s so, its a heavy duty floor.

So, today it's not - it's not - imaginable because we have sufficient

infrastructure outside to make sure

construction goes on, faculty members

give the specification. They are not involved,

but things were different at that time. yeah

They are physically involved.

See then only it will come up, no doubt about it.

You mentioned that the department was

initially education based. Yes.

Undergraduate education-based. Yes.

Obviously, today the institute is very different.

In fact, we have a larger number of

you know, postgraduate students

in the institute than the undergraduate students.

So, the flavor of the institute has changed.

Can you just, you know, kind of see how

or mention how you saw the changes

from a Undergraduate Teaching Laboratory

to the Postgraduate Research Institution

over these years in your experience? Because basically it's a -

we start only teaching first

Anything - First of all, I remember when I graduated,

I did not even consider doing

postgraduate study here. Yeah.

I went abroad and that was because

that was just not a research culture in 1968 at that time.

And, as you are mentioning

there were not very many faculty members also

with the PhD and over the years

things have changed. Yes.

So, I just want you to carry on. But

the moment we joined the institute

first, actually Professor Sengupto

had asked, in one of the many of the interviews asked me.

What were you doing other than teaching, first question.

I said, I am teaching, this course is going on

Other than teaching what are you doing?

We have to keep our mouth shut

because there is - no facility was there here.

Even we were not registered for PhD at that time.

Then I told Professor Varghese, somewhere

next time I go and tell my registered for PhD

So, with the great difficulty we registered for PhD.

Now, we can say we registered, I registered long back

because wherever 10 years we can say.

After that only I got my degree.

So, that was - starting always trouble will be there.

So, at least at that time there was - if nothing else -

there was at least an intent Yes.

that the faculty should get Should get into a -

Research Programme in greater size. Yes.

No no. So, the research was the background of the

institute director has given at instance. I will interfere here

When A. Ramachandran took over as the Director,

he said that mandate for anybody

for getting a promotion is a PhD qualification.

That’s what I was talking - And that was the starting point.

Every - every faculty was interested in registering for PhD.

Of course, we did really have good PhDs

in Science and this departments.

In Engineering Department, specifically in Civil Engineering,

not many PhDs there in 60s and 70s.

If I make a name in 60 when I come out of the college

I know only one doctorate in Civil Engineering

was Professor S. R. Srinivasan

of College of Engineering in Guindy. Correct.

And that was the only doctorate the name is known to me,

other than nothing. Professor Varghese did PhD

and all was around that time only.

What I mean to say is the total PhD

in engineering itself was small.

At IIT the motivation was by A. Ramachandran was that,

if you finish PhD you get your promotion immediately. Yes,

that’s not a joke. That was the first thing.

And therefore,

the faculty research - actually there were not students - the faculty

themselves were participanting or doing their research

in the laboratory till late in the night to see that their PhDs are there.

And the research guidance were - guides were very few,

therefore, number of faculty registered under one senior faculty

had to do a lot of work, research work to see that PhDs here.

So, from 68 to 73, the - that culture was a necessity

for the PhD staff members to do PhD in addition to teaching.

To mention there was a time

when I was doing my M.Tech, not PhD -

out of 40 hours of the workload

that we have, we used to have 36 hours of

either doing research or doing teaching

or doing by ourselves studies,

that was the timetable that we used to have.

And even research scholars they used to work

one I think it is, first research scholar. Do you remember

who is the first research scholar?

First research scholar is B. V. Subramanyam?

No, no. From IIT Madras.

Keshav- Fully from IIT Madras.

Fully from IIT Madras Civil Engineering Department

is one Keshavan Nair - Sukeshan Nair.

Sukeshan Nair. Sukeshan Nair.

Who - he did - nearly 93 specimens tested in Concrete Laboratory.

Unimaginable because the money involved in

pouring concrete and 93 specimens, he did.

And In which one, what is his area of research?

Concrete frame corners. Frame corners.

Frame corners. Frame corners.

And he - we had - actually I used to tell them,

he had 2 big volumes of his thesis. The theses were 2 volumes.

2 volumes to send abroad number for him.

Number 2, next was Professor Ganeshan, 1 volume,

next was myself - 70 pages.

Actually, the Professor - Sukeshan Nair's

thesis was evaluated by Structural Engineering Research Centre

Director G. S. Ramaswamy. G. S. Ramaswamy.

He was one of the examiners. He said

so much of work, so much of volume of work for one PhD?

he asked him in the viva voce

because, what is the requirement of doing PhD

over one PhD was not well defined.

For, everybody is afraid saying that

we should get it without any difficulty, do as much as possible.

And, Sukeshan Nair was - I think his patience

I should appreciate, because I was in charge

of the Concrete Laboratory and any minute

I will see that Sukeshan Nair will be demanding for manpower;

whereas, I should allot manpower for others also.

And, since is the first PhD students the research

came into picture after Ramachandran said

that it is a must for you to have a PhD for going to a promotion.

Therefore, if you see from the records the faculty doing PhD

and completing it was the maximum in 63 to 73, in 66 to 73.

And actually, subsequently,

Then PhD is joined. people were ... yeah.

People were taking only with the PhD they were -

So, there was a transition. No, there was a joke also

from class 3, class 4 post, class 3

if you want to come instead of PhD, IIT Madras it was there

So then actually I remember, what I am saying is Class 4 to class 3.

very many other institutions have

gone through a similar transition Quite possible.

in India. For example, when the RECs became NITs. Yeah.

They went through similar transition. Prior to that

there was not an insistence on research in this institution.

So, very many faculty did not and then when it became NITs,

people were started asking what is your research output

and the faculty had difficult time you know to be able to show.

So, all these national institutions

have gone through this type of phase-

the - what are the differences in the administrative

structure of the institute from the time it was established,

as you went through the department

to it in, can you kind of touch upon that?

Before that - You were actually also a

Dean Administration. Yeah

Dean Administration. So, probably - you should I don't have -

you should say What I would say is

I would put it in a different way, that is, the structure of the institute

was academically oriented, research oriented,

with administrative staff with minimum till around 68, around that.

Then afterwards this administrative building came up now.

Then we had one floor reserved for account section

plus trash, one floor for administration,

one floor for the Director’s office at the top

most floor along with senates room and all,

one floor for engineering unit

and one floor for counselling to say. Academic.

Academic. These are all this thing.

Then since the research degrees came, were to be awarded,

there's a research wing, there is a - Course wing.

Course wing. Then we had two wings;

one course wing and research wing.

Earlier, there was only one administration

which took care of administration and academic activities.

One superintendent will be there for academic,

one superintendent will be there from administration

then they were made Assistant Registrar.

That was the time when it was in 64, 65 and all.

Then afterwards academic separately done

and because the examination pattern

etcetera etcetera were also changed,

question papers were set internally

and that has to be monitored.

And, we had equally - equal - I mean, weekly examinations

that has to be monitored, then the periodical system.

All those things were slowly developed

from 63 up to say, let's say, 70s no no.

That brought in very high academic responsibilities

load on the institute. Therefore, academic section grew.

Simultaneously, the workshop

and other areas we had the class 3, class 4

staff numbers increasing because

the Research Departments wanted workshop for itself.

Every department wanted an workshop.

Therefore, there are mechanics, instrument mechanics therefore.

The administration of all those things

the so-called class 3, class 4 sector

was in the high and it was around 500

and odd at that time, about 70, sometimes 70-75 like that.

When it came to - when it is around 90,

not 90 - it was in 78, 79 when Professor Indiresan joined,

he said there will be Deans

who will take into the- take the responsibilities;

for one is Dean, Academic Affairs,

in one Dean, Academic Research Affairs,

another Dean one Industrial Consultancy,

one Dean for Students and then one Dean for- Administration.

Dean Administration. Dean Administration,

These are - that's not Dean Administration

This was a Dean Administrators, not called Dean Administration,

it was - yes it was Dean Administration. Earlier to it, it was called

Professor in Charge of Faculty In charge of -

and that was considered Dean Administration

because for a few- As far I remember,

Indiresan is the one who introduced the

Deans at that time. Dean system at the institute

yeah And for each dean

there will be one unit

where will be representation from each departments -

student member, board of students, board of academic courses,

board of academic research, like that.

For, each department has to spend

send one faculty for Board of Research,

one faculty for Dean of Academic, Board of Academic Courses,

one faculty for Dean of Students,

one faculty for Dean of Industrial Consultancy.

For, each department represented

in those deans and then deans

who will look into the overall development

of that particular area

and that was how the development

started in administration. Would you say; would you say, that this is

if you say, that he started as an institution

which was a top-driven to an institution

which became little more democratic

in terms of its representation, administration,

I think would you say that this is the transition?

Where, for example, I remember when I was a student

Heads of the Department was always there,

he has a permanent position and he was pretty powerful

and by the time I came back as a faculty,

Head of the Department post was no more permanent.

It was a - Rotate.

- 3 year duration. i Rotate so.

And, also this type of representation

of faculty input into the administrative -

That came - as well as the -

That came in - it started in 73, 74

with professors-in-charge. Right.

It they were not Deans, the professors in charge of various wings now,

we had a separate curriculum development cell Right.

for various department that was not amongst the deans

and there was - You were also in charge.

No, no, no. Curriculum development cell

Curriculum development cell was not there.

By the time I came joined the institute,

the dean's positions had come, you know.

So No, no there was one professor -

curriculum development cell was there I remember.

Then there was cell for what is that - you are doing this

editing and all those things is for - Matthews was there, what is that?

Photography, something connected to that,

I don’t get the name for that.

Professor Swamy do you know that, there is a department - one -

No sir. One, one establishment was there.

It is around 73 the industrial consultancy

after the 68, 73 period when research was given the weightage.

In 73 it was said that

you should also participate in the industrial consultancy;

so, that your input must be available for the industry,

for industrial consultancy was started at that time only,

and the deans came into picture only in 78, 79.

There was also industrial consultancy. From 73 to 79,

the mode of operation in the institute was:

percentage of your work will be in academic teaching

and research, percentage of work is

development of research activities,

percentage of time is allotted for

10 minutes consultancy - that was the allotment of time.

Each department has its own method of

allotting the time for the faculty

depending on their interest and ability,

wherever they can put more efforts,

but the output for the department shall be maximum.

And there was a student evaluation

for the students - that was for the teaching

staff. That was introduced late 80s.

No no that is in 70s. late late 70s,

Late 70s. Late 79 or 80.

Indiresan period, Indiresan period. Indiresan period.

Therefore, therefore, what happened is, this demarcation of

various areas was available only after 75, 78 -around 78

which means if you say a democratic way of running the

institute - When I say democratic, I meant

Atmosphere. you know input came

from the users of the service. Yes.

You know earlier the input was not there from users of the service,

earlier, somebody at the top, you know, knew what was - and then that was

Oh, that was in 70, when it came to afterwards

when I was also having certain other responsibility later

there was a necessity of- Have a break professors.

Sir, have a break. I think we are sitting more than -

Yeah yeah can we just - he wants to - just wants to have a break for some time

Yeah, I will complete this Ok.

There was a necessity of difference,

see the institute has grown big, the class 3, class 4 staff

were large numbers and they need lot of money.

They needed lot of money, therefore,

they went on borrowing from outside

and borrowing at an interest rate of 25 percent, 30 percent.

The staff member; you mean the class 3, class 4 staff members.

Staff members. Right.

Then, I think it was Professor Kuriakose

of the Chemistry Department,

who said that this should not be allowed.

Because the person who collects the money

right on the first of this month,

he will be right in the beginning of

administration block at the - at the - start of administration block. The loan sharks.

And - and -sharks; therefore, we started a thrift society

to whatever it is worth it. Thrift society.

I remember, I remember.

Therefore I, I was in charge of thrift society also. You were you were in charge of thrift society.

And when the times when the deans were appointed,

there was also Professor in charge of Engineering Unit.

Because, originally Engineering Unit was headed by

one superintending engineer, afterwards

superintending engineer cannot be, I mean,

deputed from the central government.

They had to have their own engineers,

therefore, we had one professor

in charge of Engineering Unit with executive engineer down below.

For, there were areas which are headed by separate people like -

There were different centres were there.

Different centres were also there.

Photographic Centre was there,

there was a Curriculum Development Centre was there.

I don’t know 2 or 3 centres are also there.

That is the way in which administration developed.

Centre for Continuing Education.

Continuing Education. Continuing Education.

We have been talking about academic activities

associated with the institute, but you all have lived

in this campus for 30 plus years. Yes.

And, you had other hobbies other than

the academic activity, and also campus life.

Can we touch upon that?

You know for example, you have stayed in the

campus for longer time also. Yes.

Can you touch upon

what you think is the value - for example,

most of the faculty I know

consider as a perk in working in IIT Madras

is the living on campus. You know that thing -

living on campus is a perk which nothing else can bring to us.

So, what’s your - what’s your - take on that?

My thing is, the, my life in campus for 32 years,

it's very very wonderful, no doubt about it.

In that, after 1970 I had come back from Germany,

I had contact with Professor Kumaraswamy

who was in the Madras - Yeah, I was going to come to that

you know Kumaraswamy as a faculty has done

lot of Metallurgy Department.

spirituality Yeah, spirituality

right. That's what.

So, that life was evening, institute life,

but even I was, that was really wonderful,

where nobody can get it anywhere

even in Madras. I remember number of

you learned Veda from him. Yes correct.

Not only that not only that one,

now I am present as IIT only now,

I don’t - nobody knows me as Radhakrishnan

in my - in my family or other community,

IIT is coming they will say as personal fact I am like that.

But, he made us expert in all - many questions

you ask. either in this one also, he will answer

unfortunately he is no more, I know you know that.

Professor Karaswamy he was a faculty in Metallurgy

Department. In Metallurgy Department he became Assistant Professor,

he took his MSc here also

and then he didn’t complete his PhD,

he didn’t want it perhaps.

But, outside the office hours after 4,

he was very helpful in framing our

general questions, many things. About life.

About life, many things no doubt it,

we had regular classes

in nobody many people didn’t come

of course, you can say there are 600 families in IIT

how people made use of - that is different,

that is purely personal.

But, what whole people use

they made very excellent it was.

Actually there was one Raman;

I don’t know whether you know him

in Mechanical Department - professor. I know.

He was the man who I remember

who didn’t go to any teaching profession

or research profession after his retirement,

he followed only this one.

He gives lectures in Tamil in Madurai

and I was in touch with him

that was brought by him only,

that type of life also was very useful

no doubt about it.

You were also part of that. The life

in IIT Chennai, I mean campus

has been wonderful. See, everything

everything is available inside the campus.

The shopping centre, though small,

took care of the immediate necessities

in the campus and

if at all we can go to Adyar and do it now.

Therefore, our, the faculties' members life

was enjoyable. As far as the ladies club

ladies are concerned there are ladies club.

They were also mixing up with other ladies

and they are having a really good time

and a level at which they are able to move around

and talk around and all. They brought them

to a higher level of culture itself.

And not looking at local politics

and all those things, they are able to discuss

things better - as a free citizens of the country

to that level the entire campus has been - So, did the children.

So, did the children. So, also the children.

Children had education in the K. V. School, Kendriya Vidyalaya here

and which is a cosmopolitan group of people there,

other school Vana Vani School

which is an excellent campus life -

that we have had all these things

added to it. Made it difficult to go out of the

campus after. Very very difficult that’s why

you see even people who are retired

they would like to stay as much as

possible inside the campus.

And those who got into a position called emeritus,

they would like somehow get into the place

and - that was the attraction of the campus

and still it is there.

And we, as Professor Radhakrishnan said,

we had additional advantage of

a leading us into the spiritual

life of doing it and understanding that.

See there are so many things

which are being done in the society as a ritual,

but what Kumaraswamy made us understand is

is it's not a ritual, please understand what you are doing.

Please question yourself whether things are right or wrong,

if you find it wrong unless you are feeling it right

need not have to do it, please look into that.

To that extent he has brought us to that level.

Along with it, the ritualistic part also,

citing Vedas and attending functions

for the festival research, that has been excellent.

Even today, the people in the temple

will definitely feel that the

culture in the temple has been

brought up to this level.

In those days when Kumaraswamy was the

Head of the- faculty here, he was also Head of the

I mean President of the temple samajam

for some time and the temple's

growth and its activities today

is comparable to any one of the

bigger temples in the society

and they have been doing well.

I think nothing to criticise or nothing to

comment about the campus life

and the negative side,

if at all you should say yes

here is the campus which has to be humiliated

anywhere else that is how we should say.

In fact I remember, most of the faculty member

coming from other IITs also appreciated

the greenness of this campus.

Yes. This is one of the thing that’s outstanding

about the campus - the campus has

maintained its greenness over these years

in spite of the growth, and it has been,

in fact, I was told when I became a student here

Professor Sengupto decided that the

roads will go where it kills the least amount of trees.

You know, in those days people

would not even know about ecology or environment.

But, he had the vision to say that the

campus will be built such that

it will have the greatest least amount of

disturbance to the existing flora and fauna that’s one.

You know we have some problem of the temple also -

it's not that easy -

when Professor Dr. Ramachandra was Director,

one day there was - he called me

He said Director wants you, Director wants you.

I said I won’t meet Director, I don’t know

I am not in the - I told him frankly -

I am not in the inner circle of the Director,

why does he want me, I don’t know, he wants you to. Talk louder, sir.

So, next day - there was no telephone those days,

house whose connection as much there

somebody came and said Director wants.

So, next day I said I will come 10 o'clock,

he wants to meet you.

Then I said the question was nothing is there,

who built this temple?

There is a question in the Parliament,

I want the answer in 3 days Radhakrishnan,

he said you are the Secretary of the Temple Samajam.

So, I want to answer the question

the following 4 questions that was

approved in the parliament also

because, there was no other thing else.

So, it came up on this one

and it was constructed by

actually the architect was only that Y. S. Ramaswamy, the

The then superintendent engineer. then superintendent engineer.

But the temple, there was a

there was a village temple that exist. Yes, yes there was a temple,

There is a temple. Just lingam was there. a lingam was there. There is - only a lingam was there.

So, what he used to do is I tell you

I was there from 61 before I was there.

What he was doing is the people who

finished all the contractor workload

the balance material I used to put in the temple,

just to put it - like that it was constructed.

No, he didn’t collect anything money

from anywhere outside the

those balance things don’t throw it outside,

put it inside and go away.

It was constructed like that

and went developed all these big

things Shankaracharya Swami came and blessed this one, that's all.

It came up - now, it has got a very good name

outside, remember I want to tell you because,

I am also; even yesterday I was here the temple,

I did some puja yesterday morning. The question came because of

so-called secularism in the parliament.

And afterwards it was it was Part of it. So, I answered the question.

it was also answer to that effect saying that Yes.

secularism does not mean no religion between that is the thing.

If - if somebody has asked for certain other facilities

who could not have been denied.

There was an Ayyappa Samajam

inside the temple itself. It was there.

Therefore, it's there, therefore,

there has not been any differentiation in the temple

that was the answer given

and it was accepted by parliament.

You know I have been here as a student

and then I had also joined back as the faculty

and I was used to be called as a 'baccha'

of the department because,

I was the youngest faculty at that time.

And, I have seen both the student side

and the faculty side of the campus

and I think one of the thing that

kind of makes a difference in this institute is that

student faculty relationship, you know,

it's never been an adversarial relationship,

it has always been a friendly relationship.

Faculty look at the students as something that

they are trying to facilitate their learning

and the students see the faculty as people.

There may be exceptions to this,

but as a general rule, there has been a very

congenial relationship between faculty. Definitely

students in this campus no doubt about it

and that is something I think

that needs to be spoken about you know.

And, it's a - it’s one of the reason why

the education takes place in the way

in the environment that it is taking place.

The other thing is - I remember

as soon as they came back to join faculty,

Indiresan was particularly interested

in the student faculty interaction.

And, part of the type of interaction is also

in Civil Engineering Department, the Civil Engineering Association;

Can you - the Civil Engineering Association

been very active you know in the department

and in - in fact, every year students

the students and faculty used to choose a topic

and debate that topic in the Civil Engineering Association.

Can you just reminiscence any of those things

that you have been involved in,

can you remember that you remember that?

But I was the man who is inaugurated

the Civil Engineering Association,

Professor Varghese asked me already

you had experience in Guindy Engineering College

why don’t you inaugurate? Alright we started,

but afterwards as you said

every year we used to have some meeting,

get together all those thing

as it was very good you can say. No in fact,

I remember one debate was

whether students who are

leaving the country to study abroad or staying

are they - are they - forsaking the country.

You know this is a student on faculty,

students spoke for and against,

faculties spoke for, against;

we had a nice discussion.

I think these are the type of -

We had student interactions with faculty very well,

because not only in Civil Engineering Association,

so many activities we had. Yes.

Hostel day celebration - there will be regular visits

for the hostels from the faculty members

meeting there, lot of discussions.

Non-academic discussions also will take place,

students will say what shall we do after doing it,

they will take suggestions from the faculty,

an open ended suggestion.

It does not mean that they've got to do it and all,

such a atmosphere as there and unless

we see something negative we will not be able to say

this is the beauty of this now

and we have been looking at always this positive side.

You have gone outside and have come.

Therefore, if you say that this is a

this has been positive here,

then I think we should accept. In fact, I remember the

other way also

the, there used to be a time where we

used to have a students come and visit our family

and spend some time together used to have together Right. That's what I said.

and I remember even today some of the students will come

and say you used to have us for Diwali.

You know those are the type of you know

interaction that we had

and that’s - that’s - one of the nice feature. That is

one of the things that even those days

when the institute was planned,

hostel wardens were located the hostel zone itself.

There were only 6, 7 hostels at that time

therefore, there were 6 warden. Certainly.

Afterwards it has grown big and therefore,

the wardens are somewhere here.

Otherwise the interaction with them was

students going to the warden and warden going to the students

yeah every time, it's very comfortable.

For example, Holi is one of the festival which is

very permanently you know yes

and it's one of the nice programme where student faculty interacting.

So, there are nice facilities for it.

As such we have seen only

positive side of it and therefore,

we are not able to appreciate so much

as a person who has seen a negative side

and then able to see this.

Both of you held some administrative posts,

I think you were Head of the Department

for some time, Head of the Laboratory for some time.

Both, both and - and then you were also Dean for some time.

Can you just share some anecdotes,

just an incident which kind of brings out

the intricacies of the position,

that you had, just one incident if it comes to your mind.

Otherwise, you can specifically talk about -

See, one of the thing that when I joined

the institute is, I found that

the amount of time faculty members spend

in other than academics,

in administrative work, in the institutes, I always felt was high.

You know it was higher than most institution

that I have been used to.

And in fact, I remember that when I was a faculty in the US,

I probably would have never met the President of the Institute

and the Dean, I would probably middle of engineering

I would probably meet once in 3 months

when we have a faculty meeting

and Head of the Department probably once a month.

But, I found that things were very different here,

we spent lot more time in the administrative set up, you know.

So, the, each of you in your position as administrators

how do you, do you feel that that was

so or what was it necessary

or could there be a change in terms of the

amount of administrative load on the institute?

Two things I would like to mention.

One is about administrative load

which you asked for I will come later.

As a Dean Administration we were - I was in charge of

arranging for the faculty recruitment and the selection process

and who should be called for interview and all.

We developed norms because, there should be uniformity

amongst the various departments.

In that process itself we found it difficult,

department to department there were difference.

Then for each department we developed around,

but the basic concept was that

the activities are to be taken as teaching

along with student evaluation,

research along with paper output,

publication output, and consultancy

along with turnover and also money

the money institute got. Funded Research.

Then, Funded Research,

then the projects that we got from Central Government,

these are all the areas in which -

Each department can say that

we will allot this various areas for the faculty,

but the faculties were also allowed to make their own decision.

The spectrum is open,

how much of time that you will allot for this

activity, this activity, this activity, this activity;

you can decide at the beginning of the year.

And, at the end of the year

or when you come for your evaluation,

what is your original decision

and how I would come up to that,

that was the item which we are referring to

for calling them for interview.

Because, the one person may be very good

at teaching, he must have got good records..

One person may be very good at consultancy,

some person may be very good at,

we need every area to be

same. But nevertheless, I think it's true

that -- the process of

actually there is no promotion,

it's everything you know every faculty come for. Everything is selection.

Selection, there is a process of selection

teaching and research take predominance

in the - yeah. That’s true

what we said is the allotment was

30, 30, 30 that is teaching and research put together is 60.

That is the minimum; you can have more,

you cannot have less than that.

Then consultancy, 20, and sponsored research 20,

this that you can change.

You can make all the 40 as sponsored

research and all the 40 as consultancy,

but the teaching and research has to

make 60 percent - that you have got to accommodate,

you cannot make teaching 20

and then remaining other things that was not allowed.

This was also notified to the departments

and Head of the Department was requested

to tell in the - Head of the - meetings of the faculty members

that they should present it.

When we evaluated the persons for calling

for interview because, you must have short listing.

The short listing by that time when I became a Dean

was little difficult in the sense

that there were already court cases in the institute

saying that you have not listed certain person for selection,

short listing should not be done by the administration,

it should be done by the Selection Committee itself.

And that was taken note of

by Professor Indiresan's time itself indirectly

in which he said 1 member of the Selection Committee

will be in the seminar which is being presented.

That was - that was - taken into consideration when I was a Dean

and, saying that there is short listing process

is also taken, that also was not inadequate.

It was not adequate because one case

came up afterwards, that at the time

when the seminar was conducted,

short listing has been already done.

So, what we had to do at that point of time is

shortlist it, send it to the Chairman Board of Governors,

get his initials first and afterwards

when the Selection Committee meets,

it is again told to all the members

this is the short listing norm, is there any other person

who is having a difference of opinion?

Then we give the entire set of applications

and look into it, that was done;

that was the administration procedure

standardized at that point of time.

So, that shortlisting there are no case arriving at it.

So, then. I am - I am - that’s kind of getting into the details.

I am just thinking in terms of the, you know, the

one of the, for example, you were saying dean administration's

responsibility was faculty selection.

I remember, Professor Indiresan, when he was there

when we are recruiting faculty

don’t think we are recruiting an Assistant Professor,

we are recruiting somebody

who is going to become a professor.

So, you look at him even at the time of recruitment

whether this is called a capability to become a professor

you know this is one No no that was the interview committee's

you are right. responsibility to say

whether this material is Is.

Worth for. Worth in this institute

to take any faculty position at any point of time

in future to the head of the departments Right, right, right.

and that is, it is not only connected

with his academic research

his overall development as a personality

we has to be looked into. That was the- But

I think more important was

whether he can become a professor,

you know because, not everybody

was expected to become a HOD.

No, no, not professor is very important person. So.

Dean, I mean Professor Indiresan used to say,

I am not important as the Director of the Institute,

the President of MIT is not very important,

but the faculty members who make

the department known outside is very important.

Therefore, do not look at the Director as the person,

you look at somebody else and say that this is the person

who would I like, he will be. In fact, I think

that's one of the thing that we find in India.

For example, just you were mentioning

the Director of - President of MIT may not be known,

but if Nobel Laureates are there, MIT MIT.

will be known outside the corner

and we have still not developed that kind of a culture No

as these institutions. that I will tell you,

That is correct. We are taken from the

we have we have come from the British culture.

Therefore, it is not so easy

to...because it will not be unparliamentary

if I say, but still I would like to be very guarded

in my statement and should not be misquoted.

The ethics in the society is the one

which makes all these things.

Because, if a person is true to himselves

and he would like to look at problems

from other's shoes, if they are able to do that

then he will be able to come a long way off, that is wanting.

And therefore, we need to have

to have some kind of a structured system.

Sir, that is true sir,

but on the other hand if there is often a statement

what should I do to become a professor?

It's a question that’s being

asked by all faculty members. Right.

And, I think answer has been, time

and again, that it cannot be in terms of numbers,

you have to show your ability to occupy

position of a professor in this institute by Why.

your performance, teaching research

at a level which is internationally recognized.

Correct. I would like to put that,

I had a question or I had a petition from one of the faculty

who was - who were looking for a professor's position,

he has appeared 4 or 5 times.

He sent a petition to the Director

which was forwarded to me, he said

what wrong have I committed,

I have done all these things.

You have asked that

you have how many papers etcetera etcetera.

Last year I did this much

and now this year I have made this much,

every year I show progress

and what is the effect of these things?

In the next interview, I have not been selected.

And, he also quotes somebody else

all these records and all those things,

it's very very difficult to satisfy requirements. From end actually

it is the Selection Committee,

finally, it is the Selection Committee. Selection Committee.

Process I say for, but there must be a faith in that. Yeah.

There must be a faith in that

and people should say the people sitting there

are doing their best in their positions.

And, similarly when a person is not being selected,

he should feel, yes something is wrong we should set it right.

And, there should not be a feeling of saying that

I have been dishonoured, something like that, this is the one thing

which is the plague in - which is the system

development, we cannot do it any way

further, it is very difficult. Yeah.

I don’t know if you have any other suggestion. No, no sir.

I say, with all these

questions, it will evolve. Evolution.

I was just going to ask

you have been Head of the Department. Often,

it is thought that Head of the Department

post is not very important or visible.

But, I have found that

time and again Head of the Department

make a lot of difference to the department,

can you, can you just corroborate

and then you know see what your No, I was only a Head of the Department.

opinion on that is. Quite short

very short my Head of the Department was

and so, I have not I can say

I have not done anything very big at that time.

Because, when Professor Krishnamurthy was away abroad,

I was made Interim Head of the Department.

So, all them want to came about

it to get about 3 months I was the Department officially.

You are Head of the Laboratory for some time.

I was Head of the Laboratory for years. Of course, so always

yeah, yeah, no problem. Can you say; can you say

do - do these heads you know Heads of the Department.

Heads of the Laboratory. Yes.

Do they make a difference to the department laboratory?

I don’t think there is any difference it makes.

I think it makes, sir.

Sir, it makes a difference.

I in my opinion. Now, what I am saying is.

For example, I think dynamic Head of the Laboratory

could make the laboratory function

differently from what it is because Function functioning.

see, one of the thing that IIT system has

is the ability to make decisions for yourself.

Correct. You know, it is not somebody

from outside who imposes their will.

For example, faculty of the department decide

individual faculty of the department decide

what kind of research they want to do

and the department as a whole decides

what is that they want to progress in.

So, there is a considerable amount of autonomy at each level.

So, given that Head of the Department I think

or Head of the Laboratory can make a difference

and I have seen that to be so, in time and again. So.

In my opinion, participation

in the Head of the Department in every activity

in the department which will be a strain

on his system because he has to attend

so many 3 or 4 section, is very important.

He should show interest in every department

with the best to the possible way

that he can, he should show.

Any research activity he should spend time

to understand that, it is not in my area

therefore, let somebody talk of it, it's not that.

It is the necessity of the Head of the Department

to have an overall view of all the sections.

So, in effect what you are saying is

Head of the Department can play a very

facilitating role. Can, can play

And, but then you know all play daily and all.

set and then individual faculty member drive their research,

but Head of the Departments

Yes, known to be. Head of the Laboratories can play a facilitating role.

But, sometime suppose we say the

Head of the Department is not able to

come into the field what he was doing. What to do?

For example, my case I was doing completely in dynamics.

So, the Head of the Department

was not able to do anything in Dynamics.

So, he has to get the help of from other departments,

that he can do it only by his influence.

No, no actually sir what I am saying is

when you are Head of the Department

you are really not evaluating the specific technical contribution,

but you are evaluating the person’s ability to do research,

that is what you are doing you know. Yes yes yes.

So, as it stands from, after all we sit in a seminar

when you know when faculty members are selected

and give you a feedback,

we may not be specialists in that area.

Nevertheless, we understand that

the - the thoroughness of the research

that the person is presenting

and things like that are the ones you judge.

In fact, one of the I think one of the strength of the IIT system is

at every level it places a responsibility

at that level to exercise the responsibility you know.

And, as a result I think we have been able to - as long as

we exercise the responsibility that we are assigned to,

the institute tends to be in good hands.

As long you know whereas, a person who is outside who is not

knowledgeable about what is happening,

so, but as you are saying that

such responsibility should be exercised

with fairness and with you know

with the interests of the department

or the institute in mind.

I think this system has progressed well

simply because the institute has had that type of facility.

The other thing is the culture of the students over the years

in both in undergraduate level and postgraduate level,

do you see any difference? Yes.

What would be the changes that you think are positive?

What are the changes you think are negative?

Maybe, I come to you first, sir,

we have stayed long here; what are your- No.

What are the changes that you say see in the

undergraduate students, talk about undergraduate student first.

Undergraduate students they are actually

it is difficult to manage because they are too young,

I can say when they come to the this thing

is about hardly 18 years or so.

But, they used to be young even They come; no.

when I - Right, right, wait wait.

Although where it's easy for us also to

to bring them to the line, this is not difficult.

Whereas, postgraduate students or PhD students is

little bit tough to manage.

So, I find the undergraduate students are

quite good in this one.

But do you see a change?

You know what I am saying compared to

when you joined the institute the undergraduate students

I find. and the change in today, undergraduate students.

I find, say, What is.

I find now I don’t know where

I have. No, at the time you retired.

At the time you. Retired.

It was - there was a - I find good change, it was there.

It was there What are the positive changes,

what are the negative changes?

Positive changes is you can say

first thing is they come, they came on their own to institute.

So, that thing always is there with them.

The students who join IIT Madras,

they came on their own,

no recommendation, nothing is there.

So, that thing always there.

That is all along That has existed all along.

That is there. It is there.

But the 50 percent of the students

who come after joining the institute, they come quite alright

and they do behave very well all those thing else,

I like them very much, no doubt about it.

I find improvement also after this

because, they become more matured

within 3 or 2 years, 4 years course.

At the end of 2 years they come alright

and then I find them very good in during the end.

I find them lot of - no doubt about it.

What is your opinion particularly with regard to postgraduate

students over these years?

The activities in which they are engaged

is beyond the activities of the department

and beyond the activities in which they should be engaged

You mean to say in you mean to say in terms of

programmes like Shaastra and Saarang?

All those I don’t want to name anything.

The activities that they are supposed to be engaged or

the activities they are engaged in is academic and other things.

Beyond this, their activities are there which is uncontrolled.

And, this is the one thing which is caused by the society

and no person whether it be the Director

or the Dean or ... would like to interfere in that.

So, that they say that they are left to themselves,

but they are left to themselves not as free citizens of India,

they are left to themselves as students of IIT.

Therefore, still the institute administrations

has the responsibility and since they are owning them

as students of that institute they should be guided properly.

Actually, sir, if you take a look at in

you know I remember the student governance

since one of the thing if you take a look at it,

IIT Madras also has got the year election

year after year on selecting

the student government and it goes on nicely;

you know you don’t see the type of- No, no, election

I am giving that as an example

and similarly, if you take a look at Shaastra and Saarang,

it builds their ability to organize quite extensively

and I, you know. for example,

in - in - in the other sections of this institute

where they want to get the student activity

they are trying to emulate Shaastra and Saarang

because they have set up a procedure

by which they organize events.

So, you know these - these are

successful programmes that they are able to run,

you, you want to say something as a concluding remark

if you have anything to say that

you think has not been discussed? Actually,

out of my 30, 32 plus 5; 37 years of service

teaching, so 32 years I have spent in IIT Madras,

out of 36, so, I had a wonderful

stay I can say and my stay was very fruitful

and my children are all well set up

no doubt about it because, we are IIT was

having all those advantages no doubt about it;

wherever we go somebody ask whether are you in IIT,

so many years. So, yes I was in IIT so many years.

And that’s why now people don’t believe

that I have spent I have left IIT 25 years before

1992 October I retired, 2017 October is coming.

So, 25 years since I left the.

But you still - IIT is fresh and new. Yes.

No doubt about it. Yesterday I was Say.

there in the I mean I would

See, my experience total experience

in the IIT campus is 41 years,

the longest that one could have it at that time.

Now, it is research the age of faculty is gone up,

now earlier it is 62, I had 40 years in this in this institute,

really enjoyable and very pleasant.

My daughter even now says the best life I have had

that she is now about 48,

she says IIT life has been enjoyable

And she tells everywhere wherever she goes,

she goes around the world, this is the best life in India,

if you want to have just go to IIT for some time.

The final word I would say given an opportunity

the Director permits us to come and join in IIT campus,

I will be free to join.

If the God allows you to become 20 years old again.

So, that you can go through this whole thing again. I - I

I will go through that. That is, that's next one,

but even to date if a facility is there

for if not a facility if the permission is there

that we should be we can have a

some kind of a small residence

in a single room apartment in this

you would prefer this IIT than But

anywhere else. but, we will lose the forest

if we do that we will lose the forest. No that’s what he say.

The actually the, you know, as I said

I have been a student here and the faculty here

and I have also seen how the

academic rigour has gone up over the years.

I remember that what was expected of me

in terms of publications and things like that.

To become an associate professor or professor

has considerably gone up today.

Today, the expectation of faculty

in terms of what they are suppose to be

publishing is much higher than-

Yes. So, the academic rigour expectations

from faculty has gone up over the years.

I think that's something that's

for a growing institution which wants to become an international

that's the direction we should move. Yeah, yeah, that's-

that’s only reasonable for the reason that. Yes.

Days when facilities were less, we were asked to do certain things.

Now facilities are available. Available.

Everything is got digital But, I

and think sir, on the other hand,

on the other hand, it is requirement and that everywhere

you should look a little higher than

what you are originally having a status,

then only you will be finding improvement

and it is. In fact I remember

Funded Research when I joined this institute

one of the thing because i was used to the American system,

I was looking for a Funded Research.

When I talk to my colleague they used to say

funding in Civil Engineering is - is unheard of,

you know, there is no funding in Civil Engineering.

But, today every faculty within an year of joining the department

has one Funded Research project with them...

So, that shows how things have changed

Changed, yes, definitely yes. over the years in terms

of the research culture in this institution you know.

And, the change in teaching in education,

I remember Professor P. S. Rao

one of the senior faculty

saying that when you were all students

and I - when I taught a subject,

I knew that you would go

and use the subject in your profession;

that is he was teaching Reinforced Concrete.

I- if I become a, you know, whether you become an engineer

or whether you will practice Reinforced Concrete.

But at the time of his retirement

when I go and teach the class today

I am not so sure because the students

half the students in this class will not be Civil Engineers.

And, most of the other departments also

say half the students in my class will not be

Mechanical Engineers, Electrical Engineers, Computer Scientists.

And, that in a way also reflects

how the country has changed over the

when in the long 40 years ago

even the opportunities in the area

of your engineering was low.

Today people have beyond engineering profession,

opportunities in other areas

and that also shows the way the country has- I would like to

add one point there.

I was with connected with industry after leaving this office

IIT for 15 years in the industry.

During that period the later part of that period,

I found an IIT graduate - he is not bothered about

Civil Engineering, Mechanical Engineering, he is the IIT graduate

can fit in any profession. Not necessarily Engineering,

Finance, Administration, any profession.

The training in this institute is good enough

for making a man near perfect

in any profession he takes it up with sincerity.

I have found that Correct.

as an industry and also in the professional world outside.

I think that’s also an indication of

broad base of education there. Yes.

Student to get exposure to. To that

Other than academics also. Other than

academic that is very important.

Ok sir. Ok.

Thank you very much for your time

and I think we had a good discussion.

Very good discussion.

Your experiences and thanks for sharing it with us.

So, we are really pleased

and it's a great pleasure for me to

tell you that our experience to talk about it To.

and being nostalgic about it.

We are elated to be with you today

and we thank you for giving you an opportunity. The best opportunity I had

I had both the things with my students.

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Prof. V.M.K. Sastry in conversation with Prof. Ajit Kolar and Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam

Prof. Ajit Kumar Kolar: Greetings from IIT Madras Heritage Centre.

Today at the Centre we are in conversation

with Professor Vedantam Murali Krishna Sastry

known as Professor V. M. K. Sastry

who was here in IIT Madras

as a faculty member from 1970 to 1998.

I will give you a brief introduction, and then

we will have a conversation about the

history of IIT Madras as Professor

Sastry looks at it during his tenure in this institute.

Professor V. M. K. Sastry graduated from the first

IIT which is at Kharagpur,

then he did his Master's in Indian Institute of Science

Bangalore, then his Ph.D. from

University of Illinois at Chicago Circle Campus, Chicago

in the area of Heat Transfer

he worked with Professor James Hartnett:

highly reputed Heat Transfer researchers of those times.

He worked in IIT Kanpur for some time,

he joined IIT Madras in 1970

in the Department of Mechanical Engineering.

Particularly, he was associated with the Heat

Transfer and Thermal Power Laboratory.

He went on to become the Head of the Department

of Mechanical Engineering from 1986 to 1990.

Later, he was the Dean of Academic Research

and he was the member of Board of Governors

when he retired in 1998.

He also is the Founder Professor

of ETC that is a Educational Technology Centre

which is now a very big part of the IIT Madras outreach,

especially through the NPTEL Programme.

He was Chairman of the Vanavani Committee,

and also he was Warden of Cauvery Hostel.

So, Professor Sastry has tremendous...

A long and vast experience in the IIT system,

first as a student, undergraduate student in IIT Kharagpur,

and then ending up as the member of

the Board of Governors at IIT Madras.

So he has seen the IITM...IIT system grow

from its initial...almost the beginning of the 1950s

up to '98, but then even now, although he is

officially outside the IIT system for the last 20 years,

he has been a very keen observer,

external observer of the growth of the IIT system,

IIT Madras. So, it is our pleasure to have Professor Sastry today,

to get his perspective of the IIT Madras

and IIT system in general. Welcome, Professor Sastry.

Thank You. We are very happy that you are here...

Prof. V. M. K. Sastry: Thank you, Professor Kolar. Prof. Kolar: today.

I would like to start by

asking you what were the circumstances under which you

came to IIT Madras from United States,

especially you joined the

Heat Transfer and Thermal Power Lab,

the academic and research environment,

especially also with respect to Heat Transfer subject,

kindly say few words about it.

Prof. Sastry: First of all, after graduating from IISc Bangalore

that is my Master's,

I was quite...deeply influenced by Dr. Ramachandran,

because though I was doing my

Master's Degree in Foundry Engineering,

he was actually handling the subject of Heat Transfer to us.

So I did his project work under him

and then I worked in an industry for a year,

but then I wanted to shift it to teaching line.

So I thought teaching line if I want to

really contribute, I must have a Ph.D.

So I was in search of a guide for Ph.D.,

and in that process I went first of all to

IIT Kharagpur as a lecturer.

So I was not very successful in finding a Ph.D. guide.

So I shifted to IIT Kanpur.

So there, one Professor Richard Zimmerman from Ohio...

Ohio State University, he actually accepted me to work under him.

But because of some policy issues involving

both Indian side as well as American side,

you know unlike Germany,

the assistance from United States was basically a private

affair; not from the government,

it is what is called an IIT...the...the...the University Consortium

of about 9 universities joining together,

and because of that, there was policy differences,

and the American side objected

that until the entire B.Tech. programme is in place,

you cannot have even faculty members working part-time for Ph.D.

Prof. Kolar: This was in the early 1960s. Prof. Sastry: This was in 1962.

So after a year, the American Professor said,

"Sastry, if you want to really get a Ph.D.,

go abroad." That is how I ended up in the United States.

So after my Ph.D., I joined the faculty of the University of Illinois also,

and when I was there working, 1969,

I got a letter from Professor Ramachandran

who was already by that time, the Director of IIT Madras.

So he said, "Why don't you come and join the

Mechanical Engineering Department?" So I said "Yes, I can do,

but I am now working on a NASA project,

so one more year I need,

so can I have a joining time of one year?"

With his, you know, very broad minded outlook.

He said, "Why not?"

So that is how I...

Basically, in those days you know, the people who went abroad,

they were not willing to settle down there,

they just wanted to increa...improve their qualifications and then get back.

That means basically Bharat Mata calling back.

So that is how the situation was, and I returned.

So I...was supposed to come

and join this '70 academic session, July,

but then my professor and guide,

Dr. Hartnett, he said that

"Now you are going to India,

and we don't really see..."

He was actually the...the very prominent...

International Journal of Heat and Mass Transfer, that is

the international journal, he was the editor.

So he said, "We are not really receiving many

articles...research articles in the

area of Heat Transfer from India.

So, for you to really work in this area,

it may be a good idea, if you meet several of the

international experts in Heat Transfer."

So they said...that's why in

August of 1970, the...there was the Paris

Fourth International Heat Transfer Conference.

So he said, "I will introduce you to a lot of

people there, why don't you come and..."

Because our paper also was there.

So, present it and then go.

So I requested Dr. Ramachandran,

"Is it ok if I join instead of the

beginning of the academic year,

in the middle of the year if I join, is it ok?"

He jumped at the opportunity and he really,

you know that shows actually the vision of Dr. Ramachandran.

Prof. Kolar: And he himself was a Heat Transfer person, basically. Prof. Sastry: He was himself a Heat Transfer person.

So he said, “That's a very good idea,

you come and join, after attending those things.”

So I came here, and because it was in the middle of the

academic session, I had not much teaching work to do.

So, in fact, it was a tremendous experience

for me to interact with him because,

on the first day when I met him in his office,

he said, “Sastry, this lab used to be called a Steam Lab.”

So after I came here, I changed the name

to ‘Heat Transfer and Thermal Power.’

This is very important from the history of the Heat

Transfer research in the country and in IIT Madras,

it was called a ‘Steam Power Lab,’

Prof. Sastry: Steam Power Lab. Prof. Kolar: Under Professor Narjes

But Professor Ramachandran, because

he was a Heat Transfer person,

he said, “We should have a Heat Transfer specialization.”

So he changed the name,

Professor Narjes was the head

and then ’70, Professor Sastry came in.

Prof. Sastry: So, I… Mr. Kumaran Sathasivam: But when had the lab been set up, sir?

Mr. Sathasivam: How many years had it been running? Prof. Sastry: It was set up in the beginning itself.

In fact, there was one

Professor from University of Stuttgart, Professor [indistinct].

He was also a member of the

German Committee which established IIT.

So, he actually was working in…the…in…in

Stuttgart, it was basically a Steam Lab, you know.

Mr. Sathasivam: It was a replica of… Prof. Sastry: Replica of that one

Mr. Sathasivam: The Stuttgart lab. Yes.

So, I…I came and then Dr. Ramachandran said,

“Though I changed the name,

whatever facilities you want, we will try to provide.

Can you, at least after 4 or 5 years,

make this Heat Transfer Lab

a real good Heat Transfer Lab

which is really doing reasonably good work in…in the area.”

Sir, excuse me, was Heat Transfer

being taught as a subject in any IIT or

other institutions in the country at that time?

To my knowledge there was…Heat

Transfer was not being taught at all

in any institution. Maybe,

I may be wrong, maybe Professor Sukhatme in IIT Bombay,

might have started, but I doubt it because as

undergraduate curriculum, it was not part of that.

So in fact, that is the one of the reasons why

Dr. Ramachandran particularly said,

“First of all let us develop a

Master's degree programme in Heat Transfer.”

So, now, that you don't have any teaching load,

why don't you design a 2 year

programme…M.Tech. programme,

in the area…in the subject of Heat Transfer.”

So, I worked on it for a couple of months.

So I made a detailed programme,

the curriculum was completely finalized,

then Dr. Ramachandran looked at it,

he approved, and he said that…until that time,

the Master’s Degree programme in Mechanical Engineering,

was…was only involving I think two or three areas:

One is Advanced Thermal Power,

Machine Design and probably Manufacturing.

I am not very sure.

So he said, “Let us have a regular programme.”

And then when he was quite certain that

there should be a 2 year programme

Master’s degree programme in several areas,

he asked the Department of Mechanical Engineering staff

there are almost about 10 labs

in the Mechanical Engineering.

So he said, “Each lab, each special area,

you should have a similar programme.”

So that's why by 1971, Prof. Kolar: Yes.

You know all the labs of Mechanical Engineering Department,

each department for example,

the M.Tech. programme in Combustion

M.Tech. programme in Refrigeration and Air-Conditioning…like that

all these 10 programmes actually were developed

and that's how it started in 1971.

But more importantly, what

Dr. Ramachandran suggested is that Heat…

Heat Transfer is an engineering science,

it was neither engineering nor science.

That…it used to be taught in Mechanic…Chemical Engineering also

as a more of…as a practical thing rather than

providing theoretical basis for it.

So, Dr. Ramachandran suggested

that we should also see that institutions like

Guindy Engineering College and other

engineering colleges in the country,

they also adopt this particular thing.

So he…I called actually, I arranged a

summer programme for 4 weeks

for teachers in the particular Thermal area.

So, 50 institutions actually participated for this 4…

So for that, what we did was, we actually

had this 4-week summer programme for these teachers,

along with that, we also tried to help them

by developing a lab manual.

For example, ‘How many experiments you can

conduct in Heat Transfer Lab.’

And that was quite a success because,

for the next 4-5 years, because in most of these

colleges you know, they have to go through a…

long drawn out procedure

to have any syllabus changes occurring,

because there should be a university level and all that.

So that is the reason why it took some time,

but eventually, a large number of institutions in the country

started teaching Heat Transfer as a

subject in the undergraduate programme.

I remember this very well sir because I

joined in ‘71 with you

and I was part of that first M.Tech. course specialization.

So, the point here is that

the…Heat Transfer for teaching undergraduate students

and bringing that into the Master’s programme,

actually was done by IIT Madras,

with the encouragement of Professor Ramachandran, and

Professor Sastry was there and Professor M. V. Krishnamurthy Prof. Sastry: Yes.

Prof. Kolar: was in the Refrigeration Lab. Prof. Sastry: Refrigeration Lab.

That's how Heat Transfer took routes

probably Professor Sukhatme who was a

Prof. Kolar: student of Professor [indistinct]. Prof. Sastry: [Indistinct] of.

And then…he is a Heat Transfer man, he had…

also was…sir, how about Professor A. K. Mohanty,

did he participate in this…from IIT Kharagpur?

Prof. Sastry: At that time he did not, but Prof. Kolar: Okay

basically what Mohanty was doing was,

he was in the…of course, Mechanical Engineering Department

in IIT Kharagpur, but when we…to actually

go ahead with this…1971 when we had this,

Dr. Ramachandran…you know, he is a…

in fact, I greatly respect him because he had Prof. Kolar: Yeah.

tremendous vision of so many things. Prof. Kolar: Yes.

One thing is this ‘Introduction of Heat Transfer’ as a

basic core course in the undergraduate programme

all across the country that is number 1.

Number 2, he said, that…“How about research?”

And I am really quite

surprised that he called me and he said,

“Now we will take admission for Ph.D. students,

so, take some.” Then

Dr. Kolar was one of the first ones.

So there are 3 students.

In 1972, again there was a batch of students and I took

3 students already…under me

and I was thinking that. you know, it is

too much for me because,

he said…he comes and says, “Take two more.

Take two more.” He said, “That is because…”

You know, my problem was, I worked actually

for my Ph.D. programme in a Space Research, Space Heat Transfer.

In India we were very much on…on the ground. Mr. Sathasivam: Yeah.

Prof. Sastry: Nowhere near space. Mr. Sathasivam: That’s right.

So therefore, what happened was that,

I myself was not really experienced in

several areas of applications of the Theory of Heat Transfer.

So he said, “Take two more.”

His idea was, if I take five students

in five different aspects of Heat Transfer,

some initiation of research can take place.

That…later on I found out the wisdom in that

because I think we have tried to develop

a Heat Transfer Lab very nicely because of his guidance.

Mr. Sathasivam: Sir, did Professor Ramachandran also initiate

these outreach programmes that you mentioned,

the Teacher Training Programmes that you conducted in summer,

in other branches in other labs and so on?

Actually this summer programme that I conducted

was not initiated by him

it was the so called Ministry of…you know

HRD the…the other… Prof. Kolar: Ministry of Education.

Prof. Sastry: So called Quality Improvement Programme. Prof. Kolar: Quality.

Quality Improvement Programme. They wanted to

actually have this for the…because this is for the teachers,

for the quality improvement.

So that is how it actually started.

But then, his vision was,

how to make this particular subject

very important and prominent one in the country,

because it actually…Heat Transfer is the subject

that cuts across several disciplines.

Aerospace it is there, in Chemical Engineering it is there, in…

of course, Mechanical Engineering obviously.

so because of that he wanted…

but…that it should develop actually quite well

all across, and so, he wanted to…say,

“Why don't we have a…

because you have now international contacts,”

Prof. Kolar: Yeah. Prof. Sastry: “Why don't you invite these

people from abroad, and then

we will have an international conference?”

But then finally, we decided, first of all let us

find out what is the extent of research that is

being done in the country,

before we take this international step.

So we wanted to have the First

National Heat Transfer Conference Prof. Kolar: Yes.

in 1972. And he wanted us to organize this one and

Dr. Krishnamurthy and myself, we were the organizing secretaries. Prof. Kolar: Yes sir.

Prof. Sastry: And we start a Mr. Sathasivam: Dr. M. V. Krishnamurthy.

Prof. Kolar: M. V. Krishnamurthy Mr. Sathasivam: Right.

Prof. Kolar: So it was in…during the Bangladesh War.

Prof. Kolar: 1971 December 1st to 3rd in CLT. Mr. Sathasivam: Ah, yes.

And big names, Professor Hartnett

Prof. Kolar: Professor [indistinct]. Prof. Sastry: Spalding

Professor Spalding from U.K.,

Professor Kadambi from IIT Kanpur,

Prof. Kolar: [Indistinct] from Uni…Russia. Prof. Sastry: Russia.

For us…we had just then joined for research, it was a

big thing that…we had not heard of Heat Transfer as a topic.

I am dwelling a little bit on this because

we started Heat Transfer research,

not only teaching, but research. This conference brought together

all the research community.

Sir and I am very happy to tell you, it is running

very successfully, the next one is being held

in the December of…every 2 years it changes.

So, Professor Ramachandran's vision. Prof. Sastry: Vision.

And the hard work that you and others…Professor

M. V. Krishnamurthy and others put in, has…really [Inaudible]

In fact, 1972 when we had…’71 we had this conference,

and ’73, we had the second conference in IIT Kanpur. Prof. Kolar: Kanpur.

Kanpur. And then, Dr. Ramachandran said,

“Now look…it looks like

we have a reasonably good work that is being done

both in the research laboratories,

education institutions and as well as industry to some extent.

So, why don't we have a society?” Prof. Kolar: Yes.

So, he said that, “We will have a…

we will…we will form an Indian Heat Transfer Society.”

So he gave me the task of

memorandum of association… Prof. Kolar: Following the constitution for the…

Constitution, and all that.

So we worked on it, and then 1974 we

established the Indian Society for Heat and Mass Transfer. Prof. Kolar: Yes.

Prof. Sastry: Heat and Mass Transfer. Prof. Kolar: With our Heat Transfer Lab as the headquarters.

Prof. Sastry: As the headquarters. Prof. Kolar: Even…even today it is so, sir.

Yeah, actually, 1974 onwards, until 1991, I had the

responsibility of being the secretary.

So for 17 years…

because there is nobody else that is willing to take.

Prof. Kolar: Yeah. Mr. Sathasivam: You would have been the Founder Secretary.

Prof. Sastry: Founder Secretary that's right. Prof. Kolar: Yeah yeah.

So, how about that Regional Centre?

This also connected with Heat Transfer and Energy, actually. Prof. Sastry: Yes.

See by that time, Dr. Ramachandran left actually in

1973, to take over as

Secretary, Department of Science and Technology.

In fact, that's what

I…another thing that I…aspect of Dr. Ramachandran:

he is a an institution builder.

He went and established the DST:

Department of Science and Technology. Prof. Kolar: Yes.

And afterwards of course, he…from

there he shifted to United Nations, and he

established the United Nations Centre for Human Settlements.

Prof. Kolar: In…in Nairobi. Mr. Sathasivam: Yes, yes.

Prof. Sastry: In Nairobi. Mr. Sathasivam: Yes.

So, in that sense he is actually a creator of institutions,

because of his visionary outlook.

So, after he went to DST,

there was actually an International Centre for

Heat and Mass Transfer in Yugoslavia

that was established with the assistance of UNESCO.

So, several of my international colleagues in the area,

they were associated with that Centre,

they said, “Now that…” because these people

have attended the conferences in 1971, ‘73 and

‘75 in IIT Bombay, they saw

the kind of work that is being done.

So what they said is, “Why don't we have…

not only India, but in the entire Asian Region, we will do it.”

So the…UNESCO actually sent a delegation

to tour various countries, of which actually Dr. Ramachandran was

a part of…that delegation.

And then the Yugoslavian Centre's Secretary

General was another member,

and of course, my former advisor

in Chicago, he was also another member.

They toured these countries and then they said,

“Yeah, it is time for us to have actually a

Centre for Asian countries, Asia and Pacific countries.

Prof. Kolar: Yeah Pacific. Prof. Sastry: Again, Dr. Ramachandran had the responsibility,

and by that time he was already in the DST, very busy and all that.

So he asked me to create that Centre.

So, I again drafted the constitution, and also

had several representatives from

Bangladesh and Indonesia and other places.

So we formed the Executive Committee and the

Board of Directors from Japan, for example.

So we created that Centre,

and then Dr. Ramachandran said, “Why don't we

start actually publishing a journal, Prof. Kolar: Journal.

taking into consideration the articles from these things.”

So, I also became the first editor of the

journal, he is the editor, and of course, the Prof. Kolar: Yeah.

Scientific Secretary of that (clears throat) that Centre.

He said, “Once we start this one, we have to do it

immediately.” He is…he is quite

impatient about getting things done.

So, first journal, should come out by December of 1978.

So we started this Regional Centre

in 1977, [indistinct] approved.

So the first journal should come actually in ’79…‘78 December.

We got it, but in those days as you know very well,

the printing and all that is…the words should be arranged in the

Mr. Sathasivam: Manual typesetting. Prof. Kolar: Yeah yeah yeah.

Mr. Sathasivam: That’s right. Prof. Kolar: Oh

Prof. Kolar: The First Heat Transfer Conference, we were all research scholars,

every day used to go to the printing press for proofreading,

we looked at the equations and said, “What

are all these equations? We don't understand whatever.”

All the research scholars, we had a fantastic

experience of those times. Prof. Sastry: And the printing

press was actually in the old Shopping Centre. Prof. Kolar: Shopping Centre.

Mr. Sathasivam: Yes. Prof. Sastry: In our

Mr. Sathasivam: Yeah. Prof. Sastry: Campus

Prof. Kolar: So this is very nice to hear

from you directly the… Prof. C. S. Swamy: I have one…

Prof. Kolar: Yeah please go ahead, go ahead, yeah.

Prof. Swamy: Now you said that Professor Ramachandran

Prof. Swamy: was interested in starting Heat Transfer,

Prof. Swamy: [Inaudible] to do with his being

Chairman of the Research Council of Defence Laboratory

You know he was Chairman of the Research Council DMR.

In fact, again I want to ask you, ‘72 I think

the Director of [indistinct] Narayanan

came with the delegation, and they wanted the IIT to

sub…submit projects. Prof. Sastry: Yes.

In fact, most of the projects submitted [Inaudible]

Maybe, I had also submitted a project.

Now why I am telling this, there was something about

he was thinking of rocket cones,

and then it was getting…could not be used again, because oblation.

So he said that we can [Inaudible]

So I had proposed something.

So about a coating of ceramic,

and a ceramic metal and a metal.

I said, “The most important thing is, you have to make the [Inaudible]

and we shall have a plasma torch to do this.”

In fact, my project was submitted,

but was not funded, but I

came to know much later that the plasma

torch was purchased by the Council. Prof. Sastry: Okay.

Prof. Swamy: But what I am telling you is, did Ramachandran get

interested in Heat Transfer because of its application in…

Prof. Sastry: First of all, Dr. Ramachandran himself

was actually…he had his Ph.D. from Purdue University. Prof. Swamy: I know.

Prof. Sastry: So in the…in the subject of Heat Transfer. Prof. Kolar: Heat Transfer.

Prof. Sastry: That is number 1. And of course, he was,

you know, Head of the Department in IISc Bangalore,

but more importantly, he wanted,

in fact, now that you mentioned about the

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