Good morning, Professor Vasudevan.

Thank you.

Thanks for coming and then giving us a chance to interact with you

and to listen to you about those days, the golden days

that everyone talks about when you were here,

for quite some time. I heard that, you came here

in '63 and stayed here until '97?

So, we want to hear more from you -n

how did you join IIT Madras, what did you do

before joining IIT Madras, and then your days at IIT Madras,

your academics and also otherwise.

So, we would like to listen from you

about your whole experience at IIT Madras.

Well, you could call it the musings of a Methuselah, you know,

I will try to make it as brief as possible.

I am nudging 83,

so, I have to cover a great deal of ground.

Since, you asked about my early days,

I came to Madras as a boy of 8 in the year 1943.

You must permit me to use the term Madras

with regard to Chennai, because that was the

name of the city all the time that we stayed here.

It's the name of the institute also sir, it is still IIT Madras.

It is still IIT Madras. Whenever, somebody tells me IIT Chennai,

Exactly. I correct them.

It's IIT Madras in general. Yes. Correct, by act of parliament, it's only IIT Madras.

Sir, sir, please, go ahead. Yeah.

So, for me, it will always remain Madras only. Okay.

So, I came to Madras in the year 1943,

when the 2nd World War was still raging.

I still remember going to school,

and my mother was warning me. In those days,

the Japanese were bombing; Madras was bombed by the Japanese.

And my mother had told me...in those days,

while going to school - I had to walk about 2

miles to go to my school -

she told me what to do when there is a siren.

There was a siren mounted in those days on all the

metro stations. There was only one line from Beach to Tambaram, Okay.

and there was a siren mounted on each of those.

And, the siren would go off at the time a plane was coming.

So, my mother had warned me - the moment a siren

comes on, run into the nearest place;

if you are sitting in a classroom, run to one edge of

the classroom, don't be at the center,

and have a pencil between your

teeth, so that no explosive sound would lead you to bite

your tongue and all that.

So, these were my earliest memories.

There were air raid shelters all around Madras,

and these were removed only in the year 1944,

actually, by my father, who was a retired PWD officer,

who was charged, at that time, to remove all the air raid shelters.

There was one air raid shelter removing something...looking like a

hard stone cylinder, that’s what they would look like.

And, immediately opposite Kodambakkam railway station,

it was there...these things were removed.

So, that is my earliest recollection of Madras city.

I remember the end of the war in 1945,

when the symbol V was flashed on the sky from

Meenambakkam Aerodrome in 1945, when Germany surrendered.

I remember, when India got independence in 1947.

I was at school and we were all marched off to the

playground and each of us were given one packet of sweets. Wow.

Yeah. That is all.

So, I completed my schooling in the year

1949. And, I was under aged. In

those days, you know, unless you are had a

minimum 14 years 6 months, you could not join college. Okay.

So, I had to waste one year. I spent my time learning...

time learning short hand and typewriting.

1950, in keeping with our family practice,

I joined the Madras Christian College.

Madras Christian College for us, was a family tradition;

my elder sister studied there,

my elder brother studied there,

my cousin studied there, even my grandfather

studied in Madras Christian College. Okay.

So, I took my intermediate there. All your family college.

Yeah, it was.

So, I took my intermediate degree in the year 1950.

The intermediate in those days was like the 12th standard now.

The schools were giving only up to SSLC, that is 10th standard.

In Andhra Pradesh, which I belong to, we still call it as intermediate.

You still call it intermediate.

So, this is what it was like that. And, following that,

I branched off into physics; my background is actually physics.

I took an honours degree in physics from...

Most of the people I know, who have

done metallurgy, they are all chemists. Yeah.

This is something unique. No, not necessarily.

Your own guide, Professor Ranganathan...

Professor Ranganathan was a chemist.

Chemistry sir, I know he was a chemist. Chemistry back ground? I thought that he was a physics background.

Well, anyway, Professor K. S. Raghavan, my colleague and Professor... But anyway...

No, sir... Professor E. G. Ramachandran, also physics.

So, I took physics honors, in which, my demonstrator

there was Mr. T. N. Seshan, the celebrated

Chief Election Commissioner of later days.

Before he wrote the IAS, you know, he also took physics honors. Okay.

And then, he was there at that time.

In 1955, having completed physics honors...the Advance

Centre for X-ray Diffraction here, under

Professor G. N. Ramachandran had just started. Okay.

And, they were offering an MSc degree course;

directly offered by the university not through a college. Okay.

Straight through the university. I was therefore,

the student of the celebrated biofacies Professor G. N. Ramachandran, Okay.

I was one of his direct students. And my other teacher,

there was Professor Alladi Ramakrishnan,

The director of the Institute of Mathematical Sciences.

And, at that time, way back in 195-in 1956,

for the first time, we came into contact and could use

actual X-ray diffraction equipment, Wow.

including cameras and all that.

So, it was a privilege to be connected with Professor

G. N. Ramachandran, who was a direct and if I may

mention, a favorite student of Professor C. V. Raman.

Actually, it's been my privilege to be

connected with two people connected with Sir C. V. Raman.

Professor G. N. Ramachandran was one, and the

other was Professor E. G. Ramachandran...E G Ramachandran

himself, later on. Yeah.

So, I took my MSc from the University of Madras,

specialization was x-ray crystallography; that’s my background,

x-ray crystallography.

At that time, my desire was not to become a teacher

or even to go to the IAS, but to join the Indian Air Force. Oh!

I appeared for the interview-for the interview for

Indian Air Force at Dehradun, all the way. There was only

one centre where they used to conduct the interviews.

It was 4 days of hard interviews, you had a lot of

tough tests and psychological examinations and all that.

Four people from all over India were selected, one of them was myself.

Wow! Good.

Having been selected from Dehradun, we were sent to Delhi,

to the Armed Forces Medical Centre there for medical checkup.

In those days, they were not so keen to recruit people, nearly

50 percent of people selected, would be rejected medically.

On the very first day, I was selected.

So, I thought I had my commission on hand,

but unfortunately, the next day the whole thing was

overturned and they said "you are disqualified."

So, it's really the slip between the cup and the lip.

This time the cup was almost, at the lip.

So, it fell. So, so that was really a shattering

experience for me, because that was my greatest ambition.

You know, in those days there were not many options open to people.

Either you had to go into the defense forces or

you have to join the IAS, these were the only

Class One kind of jobs available.

But right then, in the '50s, the steel plants were coming up. Okay.

And someone told me, that a study of metallurgy

would also give you a fairly good career.

In those days, the only centre giving education in metallurgy

in South India was the Indian Institution of Science. Okay.

The total number of students selected from

all over India was 16; there is a quota system, and

the number limited to Tamilnadu was 3.

Although the basic requirement was only

a BSc degree, you could never hope to get the BSc degree from

Tamilnadu there, you must have had an honors degree or an MSc degree

with a university rank, otherwise you wouldn't get it.

Anyway, I managed to get into it.

And, I was privileged to be a student of Professor T. R. Anantharaman. Wow, wow.

Few may have heard of him.

He had one of the most distinguished academic careers, Okay.

anyone could wish for. Yeah.

From school onwards, he was throughout first,

in the stated University. He was a Rhodes fellow.

In those days the Rhodes fellowship was offered to

only two people, annually, all over India.

Professor Anantharaman...and it was a pleasure to listen to him.

So, he was our role model.

And, with my background in physics,

and he was teaching his physical metallurgy,

My love for physical metallurgy grew. Well.

So, I became a physical metallurgist from that time onwards.

So, having completed the diploma course in metallurgy,

there were the usual options for me,

I could join Hindustan Steels,

I could join atomic energy commission;

I had an offer from both of these. Okay.

The IIT Madras was just starting.

So, I appeared for an interview,

I was selected for a faculty position at that time, Wow.

in the year 1959. '59.

But, the engineering classes were yet to begin after 2 or 3 years.

So, they shunted some of us off to Germany,

for an advanced technological training.

So, there were only 3 centres in those days

giving advanced technological training in metallurgy;

one was Berlin,

one was Clausthal, the third thing was Aachen. Aachen.

There was one Professor T. Ramachandran,

who served for a short time here.

He later on became a head of the

department and the principal at Surathkal. Okay.

Professor T. Ramachandran was already at Clausthal. Okay.

And, when we corresponded with him,

he said, "there is no place for you here."

And at that time, Berlin,

there was a little bit of a problem, if you will remember.

That was a time when Germany was divided into two parts,

and you could approach West Berlin only through East Germany.

Through East Germany.

So, I did not opt for it.

So, I came to Aachen.

Incidentally, I met a later colleague

who was to work here also, Mr. Dasgupta. Dasgupta.

Professor E. G. R. must have mentioned about him.

Mr. Somshankar Dasgupta was also there at

Aachen at that time, he came a little earlier.

I started my research work at the Technical University

of Aachen in the same area in which

Professor Anantharaman was working, namely,

stacking for parameter determination

and then, its effect on work hardening.

Very recently, I should tell you, sir, IIT Madras

and Aachenn have a strategic partnership, okay,

with a lot money pumped into between

the two institutions and lot of work is going on.

Much better, exactly. Lot of student exchanges are going on

between the two institutions.

That's what I said.

So, I started doing...but maybe at this time

I should interject with a few of my other experiences

as part of the narrative.

I mentioned already that, in those days, it was more

or less always common to have a ship journey

only from India to anywhere, whether it's

America or Germany and all that.

So, Professor Kraus who was coordinating the

IIT Madras activities from Germany,

he suggested, we take a boat from India

and he would reimburse our travel from there.

There was some confusion in those days between Bonn, Delhi and madras.

So, when we left from here, I checked with

Mr. Natarajan, "where I should go?"

He said, "you take the boat, you go to Bonn,

you meet the education officer in Bonn,

who will then tell you where you have to go."

This was supposed to be a

technological training preceded by a language course

- to pick up the language - it's given in a

different place, small place.

So, when we had all booked together, that Professor Ramanujam,

he was also along with me.

Professor Y. B. G. Verma,

both of these people, they were also...

Then, there was one, Dr. Garud,

who later on became principal at Nagpur.

VNIT, Nagpur. Yeah.

Well, when I studied there, he was the principal. Yeah.

Yeah, we all went together by the same boat. Okay.

And, there was one Raju also. Four of us had

booked a cabin in by boat.

Just a few days before we were leaving, there was a

telegram from the DAAD saying, "your tickets

have been booked by plane."

This is created another confusion because

we had already booked it by boat.

Anyway, I managed to contact the people,

they said, "okay, you can go by boat."

So, we took the boat from Bombay. It was a 14 day

journey from Bombay to Genoa and from Genoa

we were to take a train and this train would take us through Italy,

through Switzerland into Germany.

So, when I was going, its pretty interesting, that time,

the Suez Canal had just been reopened.

In 1956, you would have heard, there was a problem in the Suez Canal;

Gamal Abdel Nasser had blocked it.

So, people had to go all the way around Africa,

like Vasco da Gama in the old days.

At our time, it had been opened.

So, the interesting point that I want to mention

to you was that, Suez Canal is a very

narrow channel, like this, and there are two terminal points;

one is called Suez the other is called Port Side.

For those of the ship passengers, who want to

have a look at Cairo and have a look at the pyramids of Egypt,

they used to organize a one day journey. We would

get off the ship at one end, be taken through

Cairo where we could see the museum, to

the pyramids of Egypt, the Sphinx and all that...

and they would bring us back and put us on boat,

the ship at the other end of the Suez Canal, right.

So, we were taken and had the pleasure of

seeing the Sphinx, a short ride over a camel in the desert,

and also, going down one of the pyramids;

this is one of the interesting things there.

So, we were brought back after that and

when we are reached Suez, unfortunately,

the agent had taken too much time,

so, the main ship was already in motion.

So, we were on a motor launch and

they were telling us, "from the motor launch

you can climb up to the ship,

the ship will throw you a rope ladder."

So, the ship was moving, the motor launch was

moving alongside and a rope ladder was

thrown and underneath, if you have missed,

you are there in the Suez Canal.

So, all other people preceded me, and I was the very last person

Yeah to climb up the rope ladder.

Okay. Somehow, I came up in one whole piece into the ship.

So, from there we went all the way. They stop for a day in

Naples and from Naples you could see Vesuvius at a distance.

Wow. Yeah.

After, then, we dropped off at Genoa,

from Genoa, I had to take the train.

Now, what happened was, when we were on board

the ship, there was another confusion which arose -

there was an instruction from the Indian Embassy

that, we should not have anywhere else except to go

to our respective places where we could get language training.

All of us were not getting at the same place, at different places.

The ships' captain, who had earlier told us that

he had our ticket to Bonn, came

and said, "your tickets have been changed."

He mentioned me the name of a small town which

I had not even heard, there is a ticket which you are going to get.

I told him, "this is not my understanding, because

the registrar at IIT Madras told me to go to Bonn,

I have to follow only his instructions.

The captain was very angry, you are giving me a lot of work now,

I said, "go back,

I had asked you to book my ticket to Bonn, I will go to Bonn."

So, we got off, we took the train.

Now, they had another bit of experience. When our

train was passing through Switzerland,

we were brought down at midnight at Switzerland because,

by the Swiss police, on doubts that our passports were bogus. Okay.

All of us, 6 or 8, they brought us down from the train,

they checked our passports. By the time they

found out that the passports were genuine, the train had already left.

I had already told the education officer that

we are coming by this train, we were to reach on a Sunday.

So, when we finally took another train and reached

Bonn, there was nobody to receive us.

I didn’t know a word of German, none of us knew,

we didn’t know where to go. Then, someone who knew

the area came, he was good enough, a good samaritan,

he said, "I will telephone

Dr. Baliga, the name of the education officer.

He telephoned. When the education officer came,

he was very wild with us, "why did you come?"

I said, "I had been told by the registrar to come to Bonn."

"I had already given instructions, you should go to other places, you know, go."

He immediately brought us tickets and

said, "two of you will go, four of you will go here,

two of you will go there," like that.

So, from there I went to the place where I learnt German.

So, that is a very very small village called Blaubeuren.

Its population was only 4000.

Now, the Goethe Institute had deliberately selected

these places because they wanted

the people who want to learn the language, to go to

a place where no one speaks any language other than German. Any language other than German.

It is just like throwing a baby into the water to learn swimming.

I remember, sir, when I was in Japan my teacher used to teach

Japanese without using any other language. Exactly.

He says, "you should learn a language through that language only." Through, exactly.

Not through some other language. Exactly, exactly.

You are right.

So, now, this was actually the peak of winter. Actually,

December 1st I started,

there was snow and my accommodation was on top of a mount.

So, when I used to come down, I used to slip on the snow.

Oftentimes, my book will go

in one direction, I will go in another direction.

The classes used to start with morning breakfast at 7 o' clock,

along with the teachers, complete classes,

then lunch along with the teachers, because food habits were different.

There were some who were vegetarian, there were

some who wouldn’t take beef and all, among our students.

So, in a small place like that, you had to make special

arrangements. They would go with us and after lunch, back to class,

classes till the evening.

In Germany, you have a very early dinner 6 o’clock

back, dinner, and then homework.

So, this. Very hardwork.

Yes, but this was really very good because,

I didn’t know a word of German when I first went there,

but within 10 days I could manage. That was the level of

the training at the...as Professor Murthy correctly point

out, one of our teachers once wanted to give the

meaning for the word 'fallen.' 'Fallen' in German

means to fall in English.

There were people who didn’t know English also

in those places. And actually went, he actually went

upon on top of a table and fell down,

he said, "this is 'fallen.'"

So, that was very good and we were particularly

happy to note that there were people from various

countries there and the first thing which gave us

confidence was that Professor Ramanujam and myself

were continuously on the top of the class,

to such an extent that when we finished the first two courses,

we were required to finish only the first two courses,

we were continuously getting the 'Sehr Gut' note, that’s the

highest note that they would give, they offered only for the

two of us the option you could take the middle course,

middle course, the double promotion, you could take the next one.

Now, I didn’t want to take it because

I was not too sure what note I would get.

So, I told them, "I have been all along getting the highest note,

but you ask me to take a bigger examination,

I am not sure." They said, "it's up to you,

but we are sure you will clear it,

but whether you will get the highest note, we don't know."

I said, "I will go along with the usual one." Professor Ramajunam

took the higher examination

and cleared it.

We were the only two people who were offered that kind of option.

So, following that I went to the University of Aachen

and very...started work on the stacking port parameter studies.

Now, it was when I was there

that I came to hear that Professor E. G. Ramachandran

had taken over as the

first professor and head of the department here.

Now, while at University of Aachen, I had a boss

whom I will remember as one of, probably, the

finest persons I have ever met.

What should I say? He was more than a gentleman.

I found him a nobleman, he was extraordinarily kind to me,

extraordinarily kind, considerate.

So, I was very happy to work under him.

And therefore, I also took advantage. Sometimes,

I would go on the journey. I as a doctorate student,

he gave me the privilege of having some

Diplomarbiet students. People were doing the diploma

in Germany, which is equivalent to the master's degree in Germany.

They had also do a project work.

So, that could be a part of my project work and he said,

"you can pass it on to them."

So, I used pass on some work to them and take off myself,

to look around France, here, there, the places, like that.

So, one of the things I want to mention to you again,

which is part of what you have mentioned here was,

a camping trip I undertook all the way to the North Cape.

The North Cape is the northernmost point of Europe;

northernmost point of Europe. I am referring to the year 1961.

So, there was a German colleague and his fiancé,

and myself. There was a German Dauphine, a

Renault Dauphine car; I had taken my driving licence in Germany.

So, rented through to drive.

And, my other friend was also entitled to drive.

So, the two of us we went camping.

So, we had take tent accommodation with us,

we had to cook all this, because it involved a

round trip of 8000 kilometres

to be completed in 30 days, less than 30 days.

And, we were not so rich that we could afford more than 800 marks;

the old currency in the days those days was the

German mark. In those days, the German mark was

about one and a quarter Indian Rupee.

That was...that was all we could afford.

So, we could go only by camping.

So, we did take a car and I told him that,

"I would prefer to take the highway, it's easier for me to drive,

you take the city driving, I was like..." Was there any the speed limits those days?

People say, Germany is the place where

there are no speed limits, okay?

What about those days?

Yeah, actually I will mention this to you, when we were...

I remember, '96, my host drove me. Yeah.

A car at 250 kilometres per hour. Yes.

Until I saw the speedometer, I cant make out that it is actually 250. Yeah it.

So, it was.

Auto ball It was Autobahn., So smooth drive. Autobahn.

And, if it is Mercedes, you will never feel it.

They will say, they will always say, "the Mercedes engine is

absolutely silent, at whatever speed you will go."

Yeah. Now, I want to mention about the speed in some other connection,

I had mentioned this earlier.

It's a very small car, it could not go very much beyond

90 or 100 kilometres, the small car only.

So, we had taken this car and we were at...there is

camping places, all over Europe you have that. In the evening,

we will get down, pitch our tent over there, cook

on a small kerosene stove heat and then, take a look and go around.

So, we went through-through Germany,

then into Denmark and then, from there into

Sweden, and then, from there into Norway.

In the upper regions of Norway, you have the lap...laps there,

Lapland and then, from there, you go to the North Cape,

which are the northernmost point there.

Now, driving in those regions is, was extremely

dangerous in those days. Although we went in July,

there was still some snow over there and believe me,

the width of a road was probably half this, that

you are seeing. Only one car would pass. On one side was an abysmal fall.

On the other side, were mountains with lot of

crags, that kind of thing, we could easily pick up a

scratch and all that on the car; you have to be very careful.

Now, when I was driving there, at that time,

I negotiated a curve at, what you today say was not a

very high speed, somewhere between 80 and 90 kilometres.

For some unknown reason, the car sprang away from

the road, crossed a ditch. Fortunately, where we were

going, there was little expanse, jumped along the ditch,

and came, fortunately, rightside up on the other side.

That shook us to no end,

but, we came out in one whole piece, we got out.

Now, there was a ditch and there was a road here.

So, the the problem was, how to get the car across a ditch?

Yeah, yeah.

Fortunately, it was a small car and there were

friendly passersby. They halted their car, hefty chaps,

all of them physically lifted the car

and brought it back. I mention this for that speed only.

Because, there were regions there,

where you could not really go too fast.

Norway, in those days, were

not so rich, they had not struck oil in those days.

So, in the summer when we went, there used to be

terrible stench of fish, because they would be

drying fish all the way around the river.

So, we went all the way to the North Cape.

On the way, I could read a newspaper at 2 o' clock

in the night, because the it was land of the midnight sun.

It was still so bright.

So, I reached there, and there is a very small shop there, and

then, the North Cape itself is nothing more than

just a stone and then, an arrow pointing towards a North Pole.

From that point onwards, it's water. Okay.

So, I went there and they had a

small register in which the names of all people

Who? who had come from

various countries that entered. Entered.

I thumbed through it, maybe, I did not look into it carefully,

but, I did not see any other Indian name

before my...was very happy.

One of the first Indian to land there.

I don’t know.

May...maybe it's not correct, there could have been other people.

I said one of... I might not have seen it.

One of the person... I might not have seen it.

So, we came back, but what you mentioned.

We had another problem language problem.

When we were coming down through Finland,

Finnish and Hungarian belong to a different group of languages.

These have nothing to do with Indo-

German languages, absolutely different.

The other languages are not far about. For example,

in Swedish, the word for bread is Broder,

It is Brot in German, Brod in Swedish;

you could somehow get along, but when you coming to Finland,

absolutely, the language is totally different, only sign language.

But, we managed to somehow come. Then,

we completed all the, the entire journey, 8000 kilometres

in 30 days and we reached Aachen. And, the cost including

repairs to the car, each of us paid only 800 marks. Wow.

So, that was one of the interesting... So, you could

I undertook in 1963 .

What aspects of metallurgy you have, kind of, got

the expertise during your stay in Germany?

Well, actually I was mentioned,

I concentrated well, I did go and attend classes.

Stacking falls, you mentioned. Yeah, my area which I concentrated,

but I attended lectures also, in other areas - extraction metallurgy,

general physical metallurgy and all that, they were not very different.

But, you were also allowed to operate some machines, for example, microscope?. Yeah!

X-ray diffractometer was the first thing. It like,

the whole thing was...what should I say...

very, looked like predestined and all that. Okay.

When I went to that place, my boss had just ordered

for an X-ray diffractometer, he had not worked on that himself. Okay.

And, he had nobody to work with it. Alright.

But, with my background under Professor G. N. Ramachandran,

I was familiar. The still...the diffractometer was new at that time there.

So, I started working with that.

There was an electron microscope there.

Yeah, that’s what I wanted to know whether you would have...

Misses Butanuth, was a lady.

She also came here later on,

she didn’t stay long enough here. Mrs. Edith Butanuth.

That was the electron microscope,

but, those..those days, you know, we couldn’t go and touch

or operate any of those.

Whereas, the as far as the X-ray laboratory was concerned, everything..

in fact, we had also got an x-ray fluorescence spectrometer,

at that time.

My boss asked me, "can you look after both of these?"

I said, "no, that’s not possible."

So, it was, later on, passed on to a Hungarian colleague.

So, I stuck only to this,

I used to don’t only my studies concerned with the X ray diffraction, but

there were people coming from other...

who wanted x-ray diffraction pictures taken.

So, I used to do their work also,

but, I did attend lectures in other subjects also.

Well, I had to mention this...the

this standard was not very different from what-from what,

You are want here.

It was there at, maybe, at one or two places,

it might have been a little deeper, that’s all.

19... '63 you returned here.

'63 I returned. This time, I took a cargo boat,

because, I had a lot of luggage with me. Okay.

So, I couldn’t come, so I.

I bargained with Mrs. Marga Schmitz of DAAD.

She said, "I will pay only the fare for a normal boat,

you pay the extra difference." I said, "Okay."

I took a cargo boat. And so, we had a very interesting journey.

While we were coming back, we passed by the side of Italy.

Some of you have might have heard of this name of the cinema

Stromboli in which Ingrid Bergman starred.

Stromboli is the name of a volcano, still active.

Still active, and our boat was just

passing by this side of Stromboli.

It has got a...it's a volcano, you know?"

And, the crater mouth is like this...

So, in the night, we could still see red hot lava flowing down.

There were fishermen on the other side.

So, in the night, it was a beautiful sight as our ship was coming,

to see an active volcano in operation.

Then, from there we came

under the monsoon quarters somewhere.

So, this is very interesting because the ship was oscillating violently.

Now, in a cargo boat, passenger accommodation is like first class accommodation.

Okay. So, I had a cabin all to myself.

Now, it was some kind of a, what they call Klappbett in German,

folding bed, and there was a ring on the wall;

this was to allow for the fact

that you dont fall down during tossing of the ship.

So, I had to hook my hand

through the ring on the wall, so I should not fall down.

It was really oscillating by about,

a minimum of 45 to 50 degrees.

Oh. Because you are in the middle of a monsoon.

The more embarrassing thing was that,

when I came down for lunch, we were only a few people.

So, we were sitting like this, you know, our plates were all there.

So, when the ship was taking a toss,

I was often seen eating out of my neighbours plate,

so, of course, which displeased him.

So, I reached India back

in late July 1963 and joined duty on 1st August 1963.

We were all put up in a few rooms in the metallurgy workshop,

the MSB was not yet completed.

Professor Ramachandran was sitting on top, we were also sitting over there.

My colleagues at that time,

Dr. T. Ramachandran had already retired; Professor L. S. Dasgupta,

and Mr. Ramakrishna Iyer,

who was there at that time; Ragunatha Rao,

he was also there; there was one Venkataraman.

So, far as it's not too many people.

So, metallurgy was all in one building, the workshop.

Practically there only.

So, the... The crates were still being opened.

forming did not come up.

No, the crates were still being opened, you won’t believe it,

the very first batch which graduated out of IIT Madras in 1964,

they graduated in the year January not in July because,

following the Chinese invasion

there was an acceleration of the courses. Okay.

And, all the courses are required to be complete by January.

So, with the effect that, the very first batch graduated

without ever having taken a peak

into an optical microscope.

Oh not even. The crates were still being... the crates were still being opened.

Okay. The crates...and unfortunately the

the Metallurgy department was planned by

a few people who belonged to mechanical engineering.

So, they were not all really familiar.

Okay. So, we did not get the kind of equipment we needed.

The only X-ray unit we got was the outmoded ciphered x-ray unit,

An unstabilised unit, 57.3 millimetre camera.

That was all that we had on the camera.

You couldn’t do any kind of research work with that kind of thing.

So, I felt really lost.

After cosming back here,

I couldn’t do any work in the area of x-ray diffraction

until we got the X-ray defractometer.

This we got, thanks to Dr. A. Ramachandran.

Dr. A. Ramachandran came as a breath of fresh air. 1968,

he brought research into IIT, at that time.

So, we were to get some x-ray facilities

and I had gone on a Humboldt.

So, I was one of the first go on a Humboldt, myself and

the Professor B. V. Rao from IIT Madras.

So, Professor Ramachandran knew

about this I was working in x-ray diffraction.

When I came back in 1969, he said,

"we have an arrangement with Germany,

about two hundred thousand

German marks worth of equipment to come.

But, we want to have a centralized facility because, you can use it,

metallurgy, chemistry, can use it,

physics can use it, we cannot have separate.

So, we will have one central x-ray facility."

So, our Central XRD came that way.

Right, came that way.

So, he asked me, "you plan it out."

Okay. So, I planned out.

So, this was '69 - '70. '69 - '70.

But, the equipment had not yet come, Okay.

we had to place an order.

Professor Zeurn had come from Germany,

he was helping us in getting all this equipment.

So, we had planned this kind of thing,

I had worked with the Philips unit there,

So, I said, "I prefer Philips unit, Philips diffractometer"

Professor Zeurn helped us, otherwise we might have got other units.

So, he constituted a committee of which I was the convenor.

And, there was Professor Aravamudhan of Chemistry,

Professor Ramanamurthi of Physics, these were my other two people,

this was a... and myself as a convenor.

Now, he said, "you have to get it started and going immediately on its arrival."

By the time we came to know that everything has been

shipped, it was '73 January, also it was coming...no place.

So, the faculty association was, those days,

located in those small rooms,

where we now have a Central XRD lab.

So, we requested that they vacate to another place,

and otherwise, construction would have taken more time.

Okay. And, we had do it.

So, the equipment landed in Madras port,

and the Philips people were very helpful

and within 1 month flat

of the equipment landing in Madras port,

we had the laboratory going.

Completely. Completely.

X-ray diffractometer and then, small scale, small angle scattering

and, you know, other associated things also going and...

But then, were there any efforts to do texture those days, x-ray texture?

No, at that time what happened was,

I was not actually in the area of texture. Texture.

I understand, Mrs. Mahalakshmi Seshasayee, later on also, was working on texture.

Dr. T. Ramachandran was working on texture. Okay. Earlier.

Yeah, yeah. But, he was not here at the time, when this came.

I think we did get some attachments, I am not too sure about that.

But primarily, the interest was in powder diffraction. Powder diffraction.

Ozone powder diffraction. I understand.

So, this was the main thing.

So, professor... I got excellent cooperation from

Dr. Aravamudhan and Dr. Ramanamurthi,

both of them they pitched in. But more importantly,

not only did we not have any space for me at that time,

I had to move to whatever space was available,

I had no staff, nobody, nothing.

Get started working, I was one man who was trained in that area.

So, at that time, I had the great good fortune

of getting two outstanding students;

one was Professor Kesavan Nair. Oh! Okay.

Who graduated from IIT,

And was my MS student also,

and there is Dr. Pathiraj, who is now in Holland. Okay.

These two people joined me at the right time.

Professor A. Ramachandran told me that,

"I want the laboratory to function; function means function."

so. When I actually joined here in 2004, Professor Nair was not there,

So, I was made XRD incharge.

So, I was central XRD incharge for some time.

So, what we did was, we also agreed that no student should be turned back.

So, Dr. Kesavan Nair, who started working,

that time, fortunately, we also had the service of

Professor Macherauch from Germany.

Professor Macherauch, is a very well known person

in the area of residual stress analysis,

,that’s how we started under residual stress. Yeah, sure.

He came for a one month stay here.

So, he came to our XRD laboratory,

at the same time, Nair was there, Prathiraj was there.

So, he instructed, he personally used to spend time here, night and day,

and set up the facility, trained them and all that.

Subsequently, residual stress measurements from here, passed on to BHEL.

Building Research Institute. Even now, sir, lot of industries, Ashok Leyland,

and a number of industries come for residual stress analysis.

Yeah, from here, yeah.

After that only, we got the Rigaku.

Rigaku yeah. The x-ray diffraction unit and all that.

Now, Mr. Varadachari joined us, at about that time Yes.

I was alone once again, I had practically no staff.

Varadachari. Nair fortunately, Nair, my MS student,

got the job as an STA. Okay.

That is something. Pathiraj still continuity as a PhD student.

Then, there was one Miss Meenakshi, I dont know if you remember her,

she was loaned to me by Professor Aravamudhan

as a ah technical assistant.

She is, now, in America also.

Then, Chandrashekar was there.

Like birds of passage...and when they left,

I didn't know what to do. I met Professor V. S. Raju,

he said, "I have a man working with me,

do you think you can train him, I have no need for him."

I said, "give him to me." That's how Varadachari joined us. Vardachari came.

He stayed with us and Just about

2 years back he retired.

He left.

So, actually, the laboratory, I must say,

I was in charge and general fashion...

but the real development, I must

openly conceid, was due to Professor

Kesanvan Nair who was my student, and ah Dr. Prathiraj.

Dr. Prathiraj, subsequently went to Holland,

where our work done here was recognised

and Professor Kolster from the University of Twente,

he was taking people from here.

So, Profesor Kesavan Nair had gone there,

I also, was invited twice, he had a centre for advanced physical metallurgy there.

They were working on residual stress.

So, But, that time, did any electron microscope coming to IIT?

Yes, electron microscopy actually had come a

little earlier. Professor Sreenivasa Raghavan was in charge of that.

And, Dr... Any other facility...?

Dr. Butenuth...no these

were the things. The scanning electron microscope

was still coming a little later.

I think Dr. Gokul Rathan subsequently

came too, later, little later.

But, you know, I had my hands full with

XRD itself. XRD, I did not want

anything else. And, I was also getting interested

in some of the areas at - some other areas at that time,

I wanted to go into development and technology.

So, so x-ray diffraction and residual stress analysis is one aspect of it.

Then, I wanted to develop some other

areas also, fairly unfamiliar areas,

because I have always been thinking that there is a great difference between

fashionable science and relevant science.

And, I am a person who

goes in strongly for relevant science, that is where the

the, you must have tangible results,

for whatever money you Correct.

put into it. Correct.

It's my personal point of view that,

if you put into 10 crores of money and then get

3 papers published,

however, exalted the journal...

Maybe, it's my personal view, I am wrong,

it's possible, but it's my personal view.

I personally believe that, rather than that,

if you can spend doing some work

on improving any aspect of technology by 10 percent,

guaranteed 10 percent,

with a marginal input of money, public money,

that is really, the kind of

development meant for this country. Anyway, this is a personal opinion.

Okay, to come back to our thing.

So, 1968, we started our postgraduate

programme in metallurgy. That was the first

postgraduate programme was physical metallurgy,

1968, we started.

Year after that, Professor E. G. R.

was always very keen on industrial metallurgy.

So, he said, "physical metallurgy we are there, for industrial

metallurgy, we will get the people from Germany."

So, Professor Zeurn came in for welding,

there was one Professor Bandow who also came in

for welding, Professor Wagener came for metal forming.

And, there was Dr. Panchanathan, Dr. Roshan etcetera,

Dr. Prabhakar, they were all taking care of foundry.

Foundry, and Prabhakar was also looking

after non-destructive testing at the same time. Non-destructive, correct.

So, this way, it was being developed and

I did feel that the demand for physical metallurgy was

coming down because there was a feeling

among many people that the MTech in

physical metallurgy does not really fetch you jobs.

So, I did try to bring in a practical emphasis to physical metallurgy.

So, bringing in some kind of, you know,

real cases of a courses and fracture analysis,

real case of fracture and things like that.

So, we did change the

ah the title from physical metallurgy to materials technology,

to indicate their support.

So, this is how..

So, when I joined, 2004, I can say

those days casting, I mean casting was

going down, welding, forming and materials technology

was enlarging. Materials technology.

Of course, a big boost came when,

Professor Padmanabhan

joined metal forming. He was

an outstanding person and

today he is going to give, He is going

give the lecture today.

he came from Banaras to join us,

and, it was a very good acquisition by the

department to get Professor Padmanabhan.

So, that's how it started.

So, afterwards, subsequently, I had been making some visits to

Foreign countries periodically.

I was spent a year as a Humboldt fellow,

'68 to '69, I told you. I was

at the Max Planck Institute of Stuttgart,

where the person sitting at the table next

to me was Professor Anantharaman himself.

We were together to take the work under Professor Gerold.

And actually, I had gone to Professor Gerold only as

Professor Anantharaman suggested that.

So, Professor Anantharaman and I were

working together for 1 year at

the Max Planck Institute.

Then, 1977 I was given a Max Planck

Society Senior Fellowship. I went

on a sabbatical, this time to the Max Planck

Institute for metals research

at Dusseldorf. At that time, I did

some work which incidentally

got me a invited membership

into the ICDD. I didn't remember or

know at that time, that this work is going to lead to that.

I was doing it as an aside, actually.

Very different from what I was going to do there.

So, '77 - '78, I was there and I came back.

'82 I again went, this

time there to the Institute for Refractory Research at Bonn.

I wanted to work with my old boss Professor Maddox there.

I was put along with a geologist

but what we had in common was

x-ray diffraction. Okay.

So, we were working with that one.

'87 there was, once again I visit

there was a INSA and KNAW,

KNAW is the Royal Dutch Academy of Sciences

and the Indian National Science Academy, there was an exchange programme.

So, he went visiting Holland

because Professor Kolster wanted me to come out,

Professor Kolster had come and visited us here.

He was very impressed and he said, "I want

to take your people here and build up."

He went there and he again, called me in 1989.

I spent 3 months there, at which

time he even asked me to deliver some

lectures to his students,

which I understand, was well received by the students.

So, after that I had...

he had wanted me to come

every year, if possible,

for a few months there, but that wouldn't work out because

we had rules in those days, you know.

I had to spend 3 years, I had to be under a bond here. Okay.

Whenever I used to go, that was not possible.

Nowadays, in principle, every summer you can go if you are

Exactly. willing to.

Exactly. That's possible.

Now, the all this was not possible, in

those days. Yeah, yeah.

So, in 1995, I were superannuated. Okay.

And, at that time, the emeritus fellowship was just

coming in. Not by the IIT,

but the All India Council of Technical Education. Okay.

So, I was one of the first to get that, only for a period of 2 years.

2 years. '95 to '97.

So, in that period of time, I want

to come to this aspect now,

towards the end of my stay, I was getting

interested in the area of developmental technology.

Now, I was always interested to know how

Russians had pulled themselves up with their bootstrap,

they did not have have money enough money

and still, they were doing research work

comparable to what the Americans were doing.

We used to get translations of the

Russian research work here.

So, I used to spend a lot of time in the library here,

looking into the Russian research papers.

What interested me there was,

very often, the papers were very short,

2 pages or 3 pages - this is what we have done and this is the result.

They would not necessarily go into the thermodynamics behind it,

they would not go into the theoretical

studies behind it, this is what you have done

and this is what you have obtained.

I was wondering whether there was anything behind it.

One such thing which interested me

was, this principle underlying the

thermocouple welding gadget,

it is mentioned as an Yasno Bogorodsky effect.

This name Yasno Bogorodsky

is not known anywhere outside of Russia.

It is mentioned in a few Russian books.

The interesting thing is that, this is a

form of electrolysis.

Under certain conditions,

with electrolytes of a specific concentration

and specific voltages, you don't have

the usual kind of electrolytic heating

which is only resistance heating.

The fall of voltage between the anode and cathode

is not uniform there, normally it is uniform.

And, you will find the usual thing, discharge

of hydrogen at the cathode and things like that.

Now, with some electrolytes

and with certain voltage ranges,

you have some kind of a pseudo-anode,

it is not really a metallic anode

building up very close to the cathode.

So, the potential drop

is not uniform, it is very steep. Steep.

Over a small area and then gradual.

This steep is so strong

that it can give rise to a spark discharge

and the spark discharge will produce tremendous heating

at the cathode; tremendous heating at the cathode.

So, the whole idea was,

the right concentration

and the right...I could not get information from the old books here.

At that time, Professor Indiresan had sent me as part of a

Government of India delegation to the then USSR,

for studying corrosion, a joint research in the area of corrosion.

So, we visited several parts of the old USSR.

So, when I was in Moscow,

I requested the people there, those days, you know,

the commissioner, so, everything there,

they could dictate and call a professor like this.

So, I said, "such and such a professors written a book,

I was wondering whether I

could talk to him?"

We will summon him here.

So, he was there.

So, I said what is it

I said, "sir, you have written this..

I have been trying something here, I did not

quite succeed, do you remember?"

"No, no, I got the information somewhere else also,

I dont exactly remember it."

So, I came back,

but then, subsequently a

student working with me here, at that time,

I think, his name was Rajia,

he found out,

after lot of experimentation

one day he just walked into my room and said,

"sir, I have got it."

I couldn’t believe it, there it was.

Then, we immediately thought,

this kind of concentrated heating

in a small area, you will understand,

we could melt copper,

We could melt copper,

under the cathode it will drop down,

and, if you touch the electorate it will be at ambient temperature.

So, almost the entire heat was concentrated now.

Because of this, there was no energy loss. Okay!

So, I got one of my students

Pampa Rao to do actually these

specific measurements in the

electrical engineering department

with regard to power consumption.

We, first of all, took a very large transformer,

that was found to be a wastage.

They said, "this is not necessary, this is not necessary."

You wont believe, it when we finally built

the thermocable building gadget,

it was only 17 watts transformer, just 17 watts.

The time taken for a thermocouple weld

time taken, it was working from a 5 ampere outlet,

please understand,

a welding working from a 5 ampere outlet.

Not heard of ususally! You cant.

We had thermocouple welding gadgets here, imported from there.

The cost of manufacture was only 500 rupees. Wow.

And the cost of one weld

was less than one tenth of one paisa.

There was a time when. Did you did you kind of try to patent?

Yes, yes, yes, we didn’t really get very far,

but, one thing I was very happy about,

at that time, a large number of students

doing research in many places, who wanted to

you know weld thermocouples,

they used to come in large numbers. Our Murugesan,

I dont know if you remember, Oh.

he was a technical assistant.

He was the one who I kept

in charge of this equipment.

There was one Ashokan who was working.. Murugesan

used to handle physical metallurgy

lab Physical metallurgy lab.

he was also in charge of this, I asked him.

There was one Ashokan,

who was working with me and another project with Sri Raman

this another thing which he developed

that was ultrasonic fatigue testing.

This is extremely rapid fatigue testing

which will produce high cycle fatigue

that is more than a million cycles.

The time taken would be only two to three minutes,

because the stretches were generated

by ultrasonic means,

ultrasonic waves or elastic stress waves

and these are a 20,000 cycles per second,

your regular fatigue machine

works at about 50 cycles per minute.

So, you can imagine

a high cycled fatigue testing,

I could complete in a matter of

2 to 3 minutes,

what would take you for months.

The only problem was the power

Power. required for the unit.

We had to have very very small samples.

And, we had to design this,

you could not use the usual barium titanate crystals

that you are using for the normal ultrasonic clearing,

you had to go in and prepare

a special facility with nickel transducer.

I needed a special fine grained

nickel sheet for this

purpose which was given to me by a

friendly professor from England.

So, with Sri Raman, we developed from scratch,

a high cycled fatigue testing machine

the samples used to be only so small.

And, what astonished many people was,

I mean, I will come back to thermo couple welding

agent in a moment,

you would screw the sample

from one end;

the sample will be screwed from one end,

it will be free at the other end,

it is standing vertical...

Please understand it's

screwed at one end,

it is not held at the other end,

it is not held this way,

what is the stress acting on it?

There is no stress

because there is nothing which is pulling it from this side. Okay.

So, you dont even have

a cantilever force because I am not holding it this way.

The whole thing was because we had..

under specific conditions,

we could produce nodes and antinodes.

So, we could produce antinodes at

one portion and node

at the other portion.

We had to concentrate the stresses at the central portion only.

So, in order to get this we had to have only very very

small samples we had took,

but then, the advantage was that

we could fabricate such samples

and, we did demonstrate it to many people,

including Dr. V. Ramachandran

of National Aeronautical Laboratory. Okay.

Many people who would not believe

that fatigue would come out like this,

we showed them, the sample would be held like this

and after about 2 minutes, it would fall down

as if an axe along its neck, right in the middle.

Now, we did enter it for a competition,

I dont want to go into the details behind

that, there was some jealousy

because we didn’t get finally, because

the people who opposed it, opposed us on one score

can you compare the SN cycles

here with the regular SN cycle.

He said, "that’s not the purpose

behind which this is constructed,

please understand why I am doing it,

I don’t know whether its a 1 to 1 correspondence

between ultrasonic fatigue testing

and the normal fatigue testing. Normal fatigue.

But, the results were like this."

Suppose you have a number of options

with regard to a material,

either with regard to welding

or with regard to composition or heat treatment,

the question is,

which is the best option?

So, I said, "if you can do the welding,

according to various

procedures, whatever it is that you think is.. then as

change the composite etcetera...

bring me these samples,

I will check these samples and tell you

which is the optimum among this, which is the best. Okay.

This result will be the same

as what you will get from the other one,

but that will take you months to..."

In this.. This way how we put it,

but, they wouldn’t see it like that.

They said, "unless you are able to

tell us the connection

between the actual SN cycle and this, we wont do it.

This was at the fag end of my stay.

So, I left. I just stayed enough to

connect contact with Sriraman,

who was doing his PhD with me,

to complete that work.

Very other..many other interesting... Some of your students,

where are there now? I mean..

Nobody is there, I am very sorry to say that.

You see, the other people went into other areas also.

This..there are other angles to this.

Actually, even the unit has been dismantled,

I am very sorry because

we did find some other things there.

Martensitic transformations

in austenitic stainless steel,

you dont get it at room temperature.

You will get it only at subsidiary temperatures.

Now, what happens is,

if you, this is with regard to MS,

but you have MD also,

when you go in for defamation,

it will be at higher term. Higher term.

So, the stress for this will have to be very high.

Now, you will understand here,

when there are ultrasonic waves

produced with this kind of power,

my unit had something like, I think,

some like 700 watts power,

not like the barium

titanate which works with about 40 or 50 watts;

tremendous force.

So, if you had a sample like that and dipped it under the water,

it was subjected to cavitation bombardment. Cavitation.

The cavitation bombardment was so high,

that we produced martensite on the surface,

confirmed by x-ray diffraction studies. Okay.

At room temperature At room temperature.

and, above room temperature;

above room temperature.

More interestingly,

subjective correlation, now I am speaking from memory,

22 years ago,

we produced not one, but

two types of martensite.

And, these 2 types of martensite, you know,

when we reheated them,

they vanished at different temperatures.

Another aspect of this was,

because of this tremendous amount of

bombardment in a very thin area,

you could produce surface hardening. Okay.

Shot peening kind of. Shot, like

shot peening.

Like shot peening. Yes, yes.

Over very thin area

only, but the... How people use the word splat..

Yes. Okay,

surface modification. Yeah yeah.

Through this kind of thing

So, this I was a thing, which I felt

we could use for many things.

So, anyway this is one side of it, I still believe that

we could do a lot of work in this area.

One point which I mentioned to them was,

India was getting into missiles,

in those areas.

So, my disagreement with some of these people who,

I said, "look here,

you say ultrasonic fatigue testing has no.."

at least they couldn’t see the importance.

I said, "the missile is flying through space at that speed,

the flutter is there,

are they at 50 cycles,

or are they more likely to be at 20,000 cycles?"

That’s true.

Well it carried no weight.

So, anyway I was stepping down, that

is over, anyway..

these are all the areas where I want to get in.

Interesting. Another I...

another point I want to mention, similarly this RPM,

the electrolytic heating,

you will understand,

you could produce the induction heating in steel,

but then, only steel

which is ferromagnetic. Yeah.

Above the Curie Temperature, Correct.

steel cannot be heated,

then, only gets heated through conduction. Correct.

So, the initial heating at the surface

is only until you come to the Curie Temperature,

not thereafter.

After that, it's only heating from the bottom. Okay.

Now, this could heat..

this is not dependent

on the ferromagnetic effects.

So, not depending on, you could also heat aluminium.

But, it has to be a conducting material.

It had to be a metal.

Correct, metal. It had to be a metal.

It has to be a metal. It had to be a metal.

Cannot be a... Please understand

the beauty behind this.

We produced with two pieces of wire,

close to each other, copper and zinc.

The idea was, as I told you,

there is a very thin film of hydrogen surrounding it.

This film of hydrogen is also a sheath,

is also the cause for the heating.

So, when we melt it and we produce separately,

please understand, from a single container

separate nuggets of molten copper and zinc not brass.

Wow, wow. Not a nugget of brass,

separate. Now, what I felt was at that time,

I barely felt that, this required development,

there is a lot of wastage going on in the metallurgy workshop.

Generally any workshop,

they file things rings fall down,

copper, aluminium, steel, all of them.

If its possible for us to build a gadget

whereby these could be remelted

and obtained in the form of small nodules,

you could use them in the foundries

for additions. Now, this is a place where

you could melt them from the same container,

and get them as separate things,

only you need a gun.

So, we did also make a gun at that time.

There was one boy called Mohan who fabricated it,

he passed away in USA later.

And, you believe me or not,

we did have a gun,

and we bored through white cast iron.

White cast iron, without producing cracks.

We produced three holes Very..

next to each other because,

the heating was severely confined to that area. Okay.

There were some problems,

the area, in all these cases,

the anode to cathode area is very critical,

you must have a very large anode area

compared to your cathode area.

So, if it's thermocouple weighting gadget, no problem,

my anode was the container itself,

the cup. So, I got over it easily.

But while boring, you dont have this.

So, I was really thinking

that, what you needed was actually a spiral anode.

We didn’t do it finally,

but I do believe that if you do that one

it should be possible for us to bore through

very hard metals,

and also...these are all areas where it could go.

I mean physical metallurgstic doing a lot of applied...

I was interested. Engineering

It is amazing, which is not usual, There was.

I should say.

No, I should. Being a physical metallurical myself,

I can say this. See, based on this

I cannot produce a paper

which will come in any of the exalted journals.

But these are applications. ...we will research for a while?

The proof we are putting is in the eating.

You are right, sir,

I can agree with you.

One other..one other, let me just

mention these, two other things which I want to..

These are two areas

in which I still believe work can be done, if

only, thing is we need the combined efforts

of a mechanical engineer, Mechanical engieer.

a design engineer...

Am I overshooting my time?

Please tell me if I am... You go ahead.

A design engineer,

an electronics engineer, and all that. If you do that,

you can produce unique gadgets in this country.

Because our thermocouple welding gadget is not

paralleled by anything else outside.

There was one gadget which was

brought from America, working under..

which was costing about

20 times our gadget

and could not do any better than our gadget;

you can produce cheap ones.

This and also, you can develop it in many ways.

Ultrasonic fatigue testing, I believe,

is something which we can also develop.

Then, the third, next thing I want to mention was,

the effect of coatings.

I had noticed from East German and Russian journals

that there are certain coatings,

once again, not every coating,

which have a tremendous effect

on fatigue crack and fatigue crack propagation.

So, we did a lot of work with regard to many coatings

and we did find that some of the coatings which people are using

for paints, some of these,

have a very strong effect on crack propagation.

So, we were able to identify one or two

resins and paints

which could really, you know,

this we actually tried in our auto workshop.

They sent springs to me.

In our house, my wife and I

used to clean the leave springs.

I quote this and I have a

a letter from Mr...late Mr. Kumar,

who was the workshop superident here

saying, "sir, thank you very much,

the life of our buses

has now increased by at least 50 percent,

Wow. and our jeeps."

One to two. Now, the only thing was,

these lessons have got a very short life.

So, what you should do is

you must have, you can use this in a place, you know,

where there are large number of units to be treated.

For example, like..

like a, like a lorry production place or something like that.

All that it requires is,

it will not cost you more than 50 paise or 1 rupees if you applied,

but the minimum guaranteed life,

with specific coatings can be at least,

50 percent. read it along with the down time,

when a bus breaks down.. Bus breaks down.

this you can do within 1 rupee. 1 rupee. 1 rupee.

With an 1 rupee you can do it.

This is once again an idea which I got,

once again by going through

old Russian and East German journals. Germans and Russians were really..

They really. clean.

But then, the only thing was..

if you had said

simply this result to an american journalist,

it would have been turned back saying,

"tell us the reason why this is happening,

Workout the thermodynamics behind this" and all that...

They were not satisfied with the results only.

So, I was then I was saying, finally, about kidney stones.

So, Professor Keshava Nair had a kidney stone. Okay.

And, at that time, there was a doctor here.

He came and said, "kidney stones ah sir?"

he while he used to come to our XRD lab,

he was a good friend of Keshavan Nair.

So, we were talking, he said,

"sir, kidney stones depend very much

on heredity,

on food habits and all that."

A first generation,

Japanese-American

and a second generation Japanese-American

and a third generation Japanese-American,

they would all have the same this thing.

So, for each place, you need a data bank,

for treatment, because

we have this mistake

that we treat our patients here for all diseases

in the same way as we treat foreign patients.

Now, if this depends on a genetic trait,

I don’t know whether it is strictly correct.

So, we want to first of all find out,

there are various kinds of kidney stones..

the most common

are of course, the calcium oxalate stones

then, after that, there are the uric acid stones.

Speaking to our doctors over here,

I found out all kinds of things

which could be present in kidney stone.

And, we had at that time, the... So,

x-ray are We had the... we had the...on those books.

I had the x-ray diffraction pattern there, and I had one student there,

who although worked with me on electrolysis,

he was wizard in computer programmes.

So, I caused him to work out a software,

we have a copyright of the software.

So, the main problem here is this,

you see, you never have a single face,

what happens is, it could be a combination,

it could be calcium oxalate some proportion,

uric acid some proportion and all that..

now, it is like, for example, identifying a criminal

from his thumbprint. Thumbprint.

Now, if there is only one, there is no problem.

If 10 people are going to put, that’s a problem.

Now, therefore, we had all the patterns.

So, I asked him to work out a software,

whereby we could eliminate it and we had it. Eliminate it.

and we could really identify

and we did prepare this

and, I did at that time, I was approached

by the local doctors,

general hospital Madras

and also from Pondicherry...

they wanted to joint research programme to be started.

Unfortunately, the authorities then said,

"unless they pitch in with the funds,

we dont want to join into this."

I said, "look here, they are treating poor patients,

they dont have the money,

lets join into the.." then he said, "we will have joint guidance.

We want from you and we will

you knowm all these things, you know, it needed cooperation..

In the kidney stone, when the doctor operates

he throws away a kidney stone,

that’s not correct,

you should take it and keep it because,

you should find out the food habits of the patient. Correct.

All these things. So, you must keep it with you.

People usually do chemical analysis,

that’s a problem

because, there are many allotropic modifications

of the same chemical formula

chemisty cannot differentiate.

By XRD, we could do this one.

We did find

and we had a collaboration with the doctor from trivandrum,

99 percent of chemical analysis under XRD,

absolutely they overlap..

and in the remaining 1 percent I told him,

"your chemical analysis is wrong."

I go by XRD data.

So, now, we want to prepare a data bank,

we could not prepare the data bank.

This is only for kidney stones; Kidney stones

are always very highly crystallised.

You know, their kidney stone patterns are very sharp,

there is no problem.

But then, when you come to gallbladder stones,

these are not very well crystallised.

So, you usually get a very broad pattern.

Now, identifying them is a little difficult.

I think, if one gets into rietveld analysis..

One. for our software programme,

we didn’t have the rietveld analysis built in.

If you do that,

if you study the gallbladder stones which are not nearly

as well crystallized as kidney stones,

as well as other deposits,

I believe, this would be an area where we can go

finally, archaeometallurgy. Any any other aspects of

you are stay at IIT Madras you want to recollect?

For example, your relations with the students. Yes,

yes, I will tell you one thing. Campus life

exams. I enjoyed my life with the students.

And, I have no hesitation in stating

that, I have often learnt from my students.

I have often learnt from my students.

It's always true.

I went after about 20 - 25 years of service,

I was once asked to give lectures

on material science,

to electrical and electronic engineering students because,

nobody else wanted to take that course.

K. J. L. Iyer forced me to take that one..

that was a large part of theory of metals and things like that.

How was campus those days

when compared to the campus now?

Yes, there were, you know,

far fewer buildings than you have now. Okay.

There was a far greater,

larger share of nature itself at that time,

and all of us, as I was telling, many of us had gardens

in our houses.

So, we used to have garden competition and

you know. . When water scarcity

has now, created a problem while gardening. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah. Fewer vehicles also, in those days and..

By and large, you know, it's very very beautiful campus.

I can only put it like this,

if I have the option

to relive my life all over again,

I would like to serve again at IIT Madras. Come back.

thank you very much.

Professor Swamy, you wanted to say anything?

Excuse me, I just wanted clarification,

you know, we..

the metallurgy department was involved in teaching

BA Metallurgy to students of Anna... Yes, yes.

Madras University. Yes, yes.

Do you remember? Yes.

Did you teach any course, like '70 - '71? Yes yes yes yes.

Okay. I used to go there because

Dr. Kulandaiswamy was at that time, dean there. Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Kulandaiwamy was at that time dean

and, I was asked to go and deliver some lectures over there. Yeah.

I also, that’s why another thing is

your brother-in-law Tathacharya.

No, brother-in-law, Tathacharya, yes.

And, he was a member of the senate also,

was he a visiting professor,

your brother-in-law, Tathacharya? No, he came only for a short time.

No, no, was it for one, but he was a member at senate,

so, persons in, Right right.

did he work on anything called Kirlian photography?

Yes, yes.

Kirlian photography that’s something which,

I dont know how many of you..

you see, Kirlian photography

borders on the arcane -

can life exist

after some part is cut?

This Kirlian photography, he did demonstrate.

If the Electric Engineering department..

experiment is like this - a leaf is there,

Yeah. The leaf is excised,

a part of it is excised and cut off,

and then, this was done in our

Electric Engineering department.

Electrical radiation cast a shadow there of

including the part

which had been cut off. Oh.

It was also visible. Did this make use of

the electron microscope or how did he do? Yes.

Electron microscope which. But, I dont know the full details,

I know about this particular thing, this Kirlian,

this create a lot of sensation at that time, including the

governor of the Raj Bhavan, he was interested.

He called him,

he said, "I was interested in seeing this." Okay.

But, this was really the case,

even after a thing ceases to exist,

certain kinds of radiations can detect the absence.

Okay. In fact, why I am asking you is, I told Professor Murty also, Yeah yeah.

A doctor, Neurophysician in Medical College,

had tried to make use of this

technique in order to find out even the people who were Yes.

buried as Jivasamadhis. Jivasamadhis, they were trying to investigate. Yeah.

Actually Professor Tathachari, went back to America afterwards, So, I can.

he was very much interested in Kirlian photography, but

he was also great scholar in Sanskrit and many other things,

all sides, biophysics also..

he was a close student of Professor G. N. Ramachandran. Yeah.

He was a professor at MIT,

he was a professor at Stanford,

he contracted cancer and then, finally, he passed away.

and, he was working in this area, you are right.

Kirlian photography the... Okay. photograph was taken here,

in the Electric Engineering department

in the short time, yeah, yeah. I see, in photography said like you.

Having mentioned that, one thing I forgot to mention is,

my interest in archaeometallurgy.

I mentioned to you, India is a country where, you know,

we have iron and steel going back to periods

when the westerners were not aware of this. Correct.

And, I still believe that,

there is a lot of scope for doing

your work on archaeometallurgy here.

I'm mentioning this because, one of my students

did go to the Kodachadri hills.

At Kodachadri hills, there is a small pillar,

it was supposed to be made out of iron.

Going there is very difficult.

He told me, he went by bus,

and then he went by walk,

and he is lived under a tree,

chopped a little bit of that, came, we analysed in our laboratory.

The purity of iron was 99.5 percent.

99.5 percent iron,

2000 years back. In a piece..in a piece of pillar where,

the annual rainfall was 650 to 700 centimetres, a year.

And, we don't have radiocarbon dating,

so, we cannot tell the

how. exact date of the..

shoulb be a few centuries, at least, yeah true true true.

old. But, where we were lacking

in those days, we had done also some work,

we did not have the support of radiocarbon dating

nor thermoluminescence stating.

If we do this, at Melsiruvallur

and at other places in South India,

there are many things,

which go back easily to a 1000 year and more than that.

We could do a great deal of work

and I think, we should start archaeometallurgy.

At least, to respect our forefathers. I think.

Who were, you know...

actually, Konasamudram was the

place from which the Damascian steel went,

who made a Damascus blades and all that.

Sir, before we close,

any message that you would like to give to the

younger generations?

Well, I really dont know whether I am

qualified to give any message. I find

the younger generation also

you know, they have got much more knowledge than what I have.

The knowledge which I have is very small,

compared to the knowledge. To be, to be honest..

the kind of passion that you people had,

I think, that is something which is missing.

Maybe, they have knowledge,

they have information available,

but, but, the fire to do something is...

All I..all I want to mention was that

Try to try to. Do try to get into the area of

developmental technology.

All I mention is, this is something

which is an article of faith with me.

Do try to work with a small amount of capital,

and, try to see if you can produce definite,

that should not be arbitrary..definite results.

If you are able to produce

a 10 percent guaranteed Yeah.

improvement

n the performance of any product, Improvement.

after, let us say, investing

a few thousand or a few lacks of rupees on it,

it is worth it.

So, do go into it, there are a lot of, you know, all around you, Sure sure.

areas are available for research. Available.

And, we do a lot of fundamental research,

it's probably very good, I am not denying that. Sure.

But, there should also be a place for

developmental research.

Thank you, sir. Thank you very much.

Wonderful, thanks for coming.

Thank you so much. Thank you sir, thank you.

Okay.

Good morning.

Good morning Professor Ganapathy.

It's my pleasure and privilege today to have a chat with you

so that we recollect some of the very important events, your career,

your experience at IIT

and so that we get a full wholesome picture -

of- Ok, thank you. Yeah.

I'll start with my education background. Yeah.

I was born at Trivandrum, Kerala state,

and brought up there

and it is very important to stress Trivandrum

because with my family background,

I could complete up to engineering in Trivandrum.

Because Trivandrum is a advanced city with Engineering College also. Right.

All the colleges I attended were of commutable distance by walk or by bus. Bus

Then, in 1961-

Yeah.

Our batch was the all-Kerala batch - first batch of all-Kerala.

All-Kerala yeah.

And in 1961, I passed with first rank and

First class distinction. Gold medal yeah.

and also I received gold medal from

Yeah. V. V. Giri at that time. Great.

Absolutely wonderful yeah.

Then... how I came to teaching:

the Government of India started a new scheme

Technical Teachers Training Program.

The purpose is to attract young bright engineers for teaching.

Right.

In that way we - a few centres were

selected for giving training under this scheme.

Yeah.

College of Engineering Guindy was there, IIT Kharagpur, Roorkee University.

Right.

Many of the top students applied from Trivandrum

I applied I didn't know anything about this.

I have ... aiming for IRSC - Indian Railway Service. Railway service.

Then my executive engineer I was, short while I was in electricity board.

Right.

He said this is a Class-1 officer’s scale

after you finish - even if in IRSC, you will get only

Class-1 officer therefore, you please go.

Right, that was the motivation factor, yeah.

Then I joined - I was selected - I went to Delhi and I was selected.

I joined in College of Engineering, Guindy.

It is a 3 years program - first 2 years, part time teaching.

Yeah.

And PG, postgraduate yeah,

in that way I got M.Sc. Structural Engineering from there. Yeah.

And we also got teacher - teaching experience from USA -

United States aid program, some professors Ok.

were there, they also gave some lectures:

how to teach and all these.

Then, under this scheme Yeah.

the Government of India has to provide us lecturer post

after 3 years. It is a agreement. Ok.

But Government of India was not very successful.

Right.

Therefore, what my - I saw my seniors, Government of India has given

one of the technical teacher-training in Srinagar.

Another in Jamshedpur.

Then we thought, let us find out ourselves.

I, at that time fortunately, IIT Madras applied.

Yeah.

For post.

Yeah, 1964. Yeah.

I applied for the post.

Initially I was not called for interview.

It is the same old story (laughs). I met the registar at that time. Yeah.

R. Natarajan, IAS.

Right. He is very very excellent. Yeah.

I showed him I am first rank from Kerala University

and here M.Sc. Engineering also I am second rank,

but I was not called for interview.

Then he did something there and here and Professor Varghese

I met - he asked me to meet Professor Varghese,

HoD - Head of Department of Civil Engineering.

He - I met him, he said: see actually we didn't want any structural engineering.

Right.

That is why I didn't call, then I said this and - this is

then ok, no problem you will be called for interview.

Yeah.

Then interview call came,

I attended the interview. And that is history (laughs).

Interview was held,

Professor B. Sengupto was the chairman - director - at that time.

And fortunately for me, an expert is Director of SERC

Professor G. S. Ramaswamy.

He has specialized in shells.

Right.

My M.Sc. thesis was also in shells.

That way, whatever questions he asked I answered properly.

Right.

Therefore, he was impressed and I was selected for the lecturer course. Right.

I joined in September 1964. 64.

Yeah. And other technical teacher-trainees in IIT are Professor Ninan Kurian.

Correct.

He is my classmate in Civil Engineering

Professor V. Radhakrishnan.

Right.

Mechanical. Yeah. He is from our own college, same batch. You are right.

Professor P. K. Philip

like that we joined here. Right.

So, I really appreciate and admire the

candid facts of those days you've stated.

So, I would say the same factors could prevail today as it was there

which is also a very good reason for anyone not to lose heart

because I would therefore interpret that

you set your heart on something, you achieved it.

So, that’s wonderful... As I see, you have done your

Ph.D. in 1973 in Structures, again.

Ah - Yeah Then, I have a peculiar experience in the sense

I was in Civil Engineering Department for 14 years. Right.

Then with Ocean Engineering Department, 19 years.

Right. That way, first 14 years I will tell about my experience in Yeah.

Civil Engineering.

At that time, IIT had agreement with the West German government for

Sci- Collaboration. Yeah, yeah Scientific collaboration.

And Civil Engineering was alerted a little late

whereas, the other departments will - ahead Yeah.

in the Civil Engineering Department also

there, only two branches were accepted-

Structural Engineering and - Right. -Hydraulics.

Right. Hydraulics was given preference because one professor Rouvé was there.

Right.

And Structural Engineering, we were there. At the time, only 3 -

Ah, Professor Varghese was the Head of the Department. He was a

permanent head of the department, not by rotation. Right.

He was appointed as a - Right. -Head of the department.

and then he planned in such a way that

there should not be competition between the teachers. Right.

Therefore, he identified each area for each

so that no competition between people.

In that way, Professor Radhakrishnan - R. Radhakrishnan - Civil Engineering

he was asked to ... emphasize on structural dynamics.

Right.

Professor T. P. Ganesan was asked to do experimental stress analysis.

I am the third lecturer.

I was asked to do on steel structures.

Right.

He said there - there is lot of scope for steel structures,

nobody is doing on steel structures.

Yeah, it’s very interesting because I really want to highlight the fact

that you were (...) well established or - by those - by today’s standards

a well established Department of Civil Engineering

and then you came to Ocean Engineering

which was absolutely nascent or virtually non-existent.

So, I would like you to bring out what were the challenges that

you encountered, and which I know as your colleague later,

that you successfully overcame.

The transaction had happened like this The way you planned. Yeah.

In IIT - in Civil Engineering Department -

in IIT many people applied for the Alexander von Humboldt Foundation. Correct.

I also applied. Right - which you got. And I got selected.

Yes.

1977. Yeah.

I joined. I went to Germany. Germany, yeah.

Berlin, yeah

At that time, The Government of India wanted to start 5 centres, one centre each in IIT. Right. IITs.

Right. IIT Madras was asked to do on Ocean - Ocean Engineering,

IIT Bombay was asked to do on Resources Engineering. Right.

IIT Kharagpur was asked to do Cryogenic.

And IIT Madr- ... Delhi was asked to energy and IIT Kanpur, something else. Alright.

That way we were hired to Ocean. IIT was started, no,

IIT Ocean Engineering was started.

Centre. With a 150 crores Yeah.

For 5 years. Yeah.

And they brought Professor Mitra from IIT Kharagpur. Kharagpur.

who was the head of Naval Architecture there. Yeah.

He was the first head of - Yeah he is the father figure of IIT Kharagpur also

because he was the first naval architect I think in India coming from UK

And with his [inaudible] experience, he planned properly. Yeah.

He was the first Head of Ocean Engineering. Yeah, Yeah, Yeah.

Then when I was in Germany itself

the advertisement came for professor post. Yeah yeah.

Already Civil Engineering I was assistant professor.

Right. With a senior and all this...

then I applied from there because

I had training in - in- Hindustan Shipyard for ship structures

and there also I have gone for some 3 months with one professor

... in [inaudible] another professor. Right, yeah.

In that way all this is - that way, I was selected

for professor post in Ocean Engineering.

Not [inaudible] no.

No, [inaudible] is not. Yeah.

He is a professor of structural - steel structures - ship structures, good fellow. Ship structures ok.

Then I joined as professor there.

Yes.

And ... stayed in Civil Engineering.

Alright. Because Ocean Engineering building was not there. Yes

Then, there was given a few rooms. Professor Mitra was there,

myself, Professor Raju. Right.

He is the senior to me.

Yes.

We are appointed on the same day because I joined later.

I was junior to him. In that way we

started Ocean Engineering centre. The department, yeah.

Initially Professor Mitra planned everything properly

and we were very lucky to get German aid for Ocean Engineering centre also.

Right.

That is why we are in a, such a very good stage.

Yes, I just want to touch upon some aspects of that

because I came in the early '80s and we were colleagues.

Of course, you were already the professor there

and the amazing thing was this was a department

which was beautifully planned with facilities even before starting the

academic programmes or even the research programmes.

So, the creation of the wave basin was a challenge

or was something we could not have dreamt of

and today, historically I would say we have evolved.

Now, I would like you to touch upon the challenges that we faced

in having created the facilities - they were not so fulfilled in those days -

and how we resolved it, how that path of growth

from those days, late '70s to now,

how will you put it on the track?

... leaving alone the details, Yeah.

In Germany, it was given to Ocean Engineering researchers. Right.

After Professor Mitra retired, Professor

Raju was the head of the Ocean Engineering Department for 3 years. Right.

At that time, Professor Indiresan was the director. Director.

This German programme aid came towards '83, '84

that is, towards end of Professor Raju’s time. Time, yeah.

Then Professor Raju ... requested Professor Indiresan,

the Director, that he will continue

as the coordinator - for the German programme. Right. Right.

And Professor Raju and Professor Indiresan were - at very good terms. Right - Yes.

But I objected to that.

I fought tooth and nail with Director Indiresan. Yeah.

And told him that this is not a usual project

it was a project given by the German government to the institute. Yeah.

And it should be yeah done through the department Head only. Right.

It is not an individual project. Right.

Because no individual has submitted this project. Right.

That way, he didn't want to take any decision. Right.

Who? Professor Indiresan. He is- Indiresan, yeah.

That way he hesitated because my

argument was very strong, he could not say no. Right.

And you were talking for the welfare of the balanced

growth of the department. And he hesitated

and wrote action can be taken by Professor Sreekanth.

Right. Next Director. Right.

After Professor Sreekanth - Srinath. Srinath, yes.

Professor Srinath has come. I met him. Yeah.

I told him all these things. Yes.

Then I came and that way the head of department only has to

look after that, he told. Right.

At that time fortunately one German -

[Inaudible] was also there. Right, yeah.

In that way he was ... good terms with all the faculty and all this.

Yeah.

In that way, things went off.

Yeah.

And he planned for this multi-element wavemaker

there was objections for multi-element wavemaker. Right.

from some people. Yeah.

[Inaudible] we overcome that

and I also went with him to Danish Institute.

Yes, Danish Hydraulic Institute, yeah.

Who were the fabricators and installations - Alright. - for all these things

Everything was done properly. Exactly.

So, to put it back in a nutshell

what I would say is that that very positive intervention

has made the department what it is today after more than

35, 38 years

and another peculiar aspect those days was:

we had the facilities, we did not have the experience.

And let us say, we did not have the confidence

of how to utilise these facilities for research, for academics,

I think it's very important to highlight how we overcame that.

For giving - Yeah.

At the time one Professor Krupa - Yes. - Technical University, Berlin.

Yes, I was with him also there, yeah. And Professor Kraus

were also experts for us and Professor Chandy. Yeah.

Was called to... give us training there for some time, On the DAAD fellowship there.

so that you can use the facilities. Yeah.

And all these things. In that way, who else will... like that I have also gone-

few people were given. Yeah. Sundar was there. Yes.

Training and in that way it was not -

and from Danish Hydraulic Institute also some people came there. Yes.

Yes. Another thing is I had a Indo-German project with one Professor Kuriacose.

Ok right. And the multi-leg articulated tower. Towers.

One person also came here. In that way the transition was not bad. Right right.

Now I think that was a very critical decision that gave us a lot of self-confidence

because if I remember right. we used to search for a global expert

to help us in experimental hydrodynamics

we finally learnt that we are the experts ourselves. We grew the hard way.

You know there also I had a little bit fight. Yeah.

This Professor Krupa, German. Yeah.

I was in Germany, I know the system. Yeah.

There is what is called über Ingenieur. Yes.

In that way, all the work will be decided by him. Ok.

In the work shop, in the laboratory who should do what, all these things.

Right. That way they wanted to have a same system

over engineer, one over engineer should be here

and they met Professor Srinath and all this is -

I told him this over engineer will not work here. Right.

Here it is a democratic country.

Yes, He cannot act - our head of the department also cannot overrule -

Oh ok. - over engineer. That way I very, very much fought with him.

Yeah. That over engineer need not be there. Yes

The what is it called - wave time manager they called. Right right.

There need not be any wave time manager, everybody will continue like this Yeah.

and all will be having freedom to work, whatever it is. Yes yes.

The facilities and the expertise can be shared between people

and all this I have to struggle harder to argue with Professor Srinath.

Right.

Finally, he agreed. Yes.

you know I want to recall the genesis of Naval Architecture

in our department because

you know, I mean you should share with us

how we... So, I was in Civil Engineering at that time. Naval Architecture was there

even in Naval Architecture, in Civil Engineering Department

Naval Architecture was not given any proper- Yeah.

figure and it was consider as a second grade department.

I think we started as a conversion course for the

Cochin Shipyard - Engineers, Cochin Shipyard and all.

giving them a degree in Naval Architecture. Yes. Degree people with.

Our some people came here and there. Right.

Right that was the beginning. That way it was going on, yes.

Then when the Ocean Engineering Centre came, Yeah.

Still they did not want to be here yeah initially. Right.

They had academically, administratively, very difficult problems

that way Professor Indiresan appointed

Yeah Professor Right.

Very senior naval architect to look after the -

Yeah Ocean Engineering, no, Naval Architecture section. Yes.

And he was - He was from Garden Reach Calcutta right.

He was sitting next to our - Yes yes.

He was there for some time, but still the problems were not solved. Yeah.

And these people fought with him and all such things. Yeah.

I think we had just 3 colleagues in those days

to teach the entire Naval Architecture programme.

And Ship Structures I used to take. Yeah.

And these people ... sometimes will take and will not take

in that way I got help from Swaminathan of Mathematics Department. Mathematics, yeah.

For wave - Seakeeping and. yes yes.

That way smoothly I took. Yeah Then, Ghosh Roy left. Yeah.

Then Professor Indiresan said I will be looking after administratively

for the Naval Architecture and ... Naval Architecture

In toto has come to Ocean Engineering. Yes.

In that way I also consoled Sambandan. Yeah.

Who did M.Sc. with me and all this. I had good terms with him. Yeah.

Of course, with also.

And he was made co-project coordinators for two or three projects. Yeah.

So, that his importance need not be - left out. Yes. Yes.

In that way they became smooth.

Yeah And it has become a part of the Ocean Engineering Right.

Centre as B.Tech. Naval Architecture came

and now I think it is called B.Tech. Naval Architecture

and Ocean Engineering. Ocean Engineering, which is

more to - that way it has merged totally with Ocean Engineering. Yes.

So, that's where I would say that your contribution - key

contribution - was bringing together

what was a Naval Architecture division under ocean - under Civil Engineering

back into the mainstream of Ocean Engineering

and today, of course, we are all harmoniously working

so. Cold War was. Yes.

stopped. Yes, exactly that is what I am saying.

So, I admire I want to bring it to record the vision that you had

in bringing, because although Ocean Engineering

is a multidisciplinary department

we had our own problems and issues in this coexistence

and growth and everything.

Now, I want to touch upon some other aspects of those days

when Naval Architecture again was at that nascent stage,

I know that in your career while you were a

full fledged faculty and professor

you chose to go to the industry voluntarily

and spend 6 months, please tell us of that incident and experience.

See, I was asked to do on steel structures. Yeah.

That way I did.

Professor Varghese said steel structures here nobody else is doing anywhere

that way it will be very good if you go to

Bharath Heavy Plates you know HPVP. Yeah.

They are making this. Pressure vessels.

Yeah. Pressure vessels, spherical tanks

and all these. are making this for sometime there

and also Hindustan Shipyard where they are

fabricating ships. Ships.

In that way 6 months yeah he asked me to go there, yeah I went there and

I had a good fortune to have friendship with

Sambandan, Sambandan was there at that time. Right.

And other two. Yeah.

Misra and. yes other such people I stayed with them.

Yeah. I studied very well. Yeah.

How the structure is fabricated and how

that ship structure is nothing but a structure like any other.

Absolutely. But the loads are different.

Yeah. Loads are different by end sea loads and other such thing.

You just said that ship structure is nothing but just like any other structure

now this is one thing I love about the way you were teaching

that you could simplify many otherwise difficult concepts.

I remember being a student in your own class,

that you always made a subject look very easy.

To me that is a very important hallmark of a teacher.

So can you please narrate any incidents that may occur to your mind,

your interaction with the students,

did you always have a smooth time with them, did they really challenge you,

did - is there some incidents?

Yeah. Positive or whichever way.

See, after my retirement I was in Nagercoil. Right.

And there is in Tirunelveli some colleges are there. Yeah.

They called me for giving some lecture one day. Right.

And there a principal - no there principal is - was

He - he has done Ph.D. in Hydraulics. Right.

That's all I knew. Yeah. Of course,

good friends and all. Then when he addressed the students, he told

I taught him the Fortran language.

When I was in civil engineering, I took computer programming for the beginning. Yeah yeah.

He told, I know I knew computer programming only through him

and he took us Fortran language, and that was surprise to me.

I see he recalled the fact that you were there, teaching them. Yeah

And even our - Heritage - our CEO. Yeah.

he is, Kumararan yes yes. And he has written a email to me yeah.

That I attended your class on plates and cells.

Kumararan I mean

Yeah. Which was good and he has took.

Yeah, he was in the early '80s there. I met him. Yes yes.

Yes he was our student in the early '80s.

So, he is been here enjoying this job yeah

Like that some...

So, I again recalled because when I came to the department in '82

and joined the faculty, the early days.

'82 I was [inaudible]... Yes yes.

So, the early days were the days where you could hardly find

any vehicles in front of the department.

I remember seeing a Fiat car in front of the department,

we professors used to proudly owned our cycles and use them

for that matter, Professor Indiresan himself was on the cycle.

So, days have changed.

So, I would like you to touch upon the nostalgic aspects of those days

how - how were the camaraderie between colleagues,

you remember we used to have a tea room there.

Yes yes.

So, the, the - See about the vehicles: I used to come to IIT by my cycle

then towards the end I had this Luna. You had a Luna of TVS yes.

Then 1 or 2 years before my retirement I You had a Maruti, I know, I know.

Still I have in my house. Yes.

Then we - I always - we wanted to be together. Yeah.

That is why we started a coffee club. That's what I am saying, yeah.

And I - I know many people, they will bring the coffee (...)

professor or HOD or whatever it is.

He will bring there and Yes.

But I will never do that yeah I went there and

I will eat. That way I used to meet everybody. Yes.

Now the coffee club was a very important place to meet.

In fact, we even used to discuss in the faculty meetings

the issues of the coffee club, you know. I also used to take charge of that.

So, what I mean is it was a good fraternity of the

department in those days, yeah. And yes, faculty also went for one outing

Professor Indiresan also came. Absolutely. See, after Director post, Yeah.

That also ... incident ... after director post. [Inaudible] Yeah, yeah.

He did not want to go to IIT Delhi. Delhi.

Or something ...

... I don't know Yeah.

but he wanted to continue in IIT Madras. Yeah, yeah.

Being a Electrical Engineering professor

he was having some problem with Electrical Department. Right.

That way Ocean Engineering. Yeah accepted him to be here.

Yeah. Because he had that ocean energy project.

Right. He was - he gave ideas to Professor Raju and Professor Ravindran

that way all the 3 were, in that way I, I was called by the - the - then deans.

Yeah.

Professor Prithviraj and Professor Kuriakose. Kuriakose yeah.

Yeah. And they had, not they - somebody had some bad

thinking that I will not accept Professor Indiresan.

Oh, oh, ok. I will being ... I being head and all that. I told them, I will never do such things.

Right. He is always welcome, you forget about all that then. Yes.

That way he came Yeah to Ocean Engineering.

And when he left,

he thanked me and he said: you cooperated with me always.

Absolutely, I remember the days when he was our colleague also, yes

yeah And if he was given full freedom to continue the Ocean Energy Project. Right.

All these things. Yes.

Yeah, where he also had a stint in Germany for a couple of years

I think. I have met him there.

Now coming back to our subject area and ocean engineering today.

I just wanted you to share on a more global basis

or more on a national basis

that those days we all used to go abroad

for these collaborative programmes and

short and long-term stints there.

I always remember China used to send huge numbers of their

researchers to the West - to the Euro - to Europe, to Germany

and they were received in a big way.

And today after about almost 40 years

we have seen the transition of China which is a fact.

Now as Ocean Engineering Department

and with our interaction with the industry

how do you think we can take a leaf - I am not trying to say

we should copy China - say, how do we take a leaf out of this -

what kind of advice would you give,

that - how do we intensify the benefit of these

abroad stints where we get back something,

how do you think if we had an ideal scenario

that this could transform our industry into a

larger entity than what it is today.

See first of all, the industry should have an open mind to come to us. Right.

They came. See, even now I will not say no. They have come. For example,

Defence. Ministry of Defence for that ... just to give an example. Yeah.

These INS Vikrant was there.

Ski jump. They had the - they had the normal planes. Yes.

When they got a Harrier aircraft. Right.

It is heavy. Yes and it should have ... longer runway. Larger runway, right.

Larger runway is not possible therefore, they wanted to give a ramp. Ski jump.

That way they asked to descend the jump - ramp

so that the turbulence should not come. Yeah.

That project was given to us. Right.

We did it successfully with Professor Chandy

and [inaudible] was the Director General of Naval Designs. He came there

and - and the Chief of Staff also visited.

Chief of Staff also visited and they were very happy with the - Right, right.

similarly, this ISRO. Yeah.

In fact, sir, I would like to touch upon or stress on the fact that that Vikrant project

the creation of the ski jump was a wonderful

state-of-the-art creation by this department. See, I am not a

expert on this turbulence. Yeah.

But I saw. Yeah. Professor P. S. Srinivasan was there in the fluid mechanics. Yeah.

At certain stage, this- that wooden pieces which was - such - vibrate. Right yes.

[Inaudible]

That way they found out some such things and all these things.

See, it is a beautiful thing that somehow the navy had the confidence

to go by the tests and investigations that the department

conducted and implemented. That only now they are having that - Right, alright.

Naval Research Board or something. Naval Research Board. Yeah, yeah.

So, I think that's a nice example you have given

which is in a way an answer to the question I asked earlier

that we - do you agree that we need to be doing this with much more intensity

because nothing builds like success, nothing succeeds like success

you know? Yeah. Similarly there is ... ISRO. Yeah.

See this PSLV they are sending. Right. And we saw... capsule falls. Yeah.

That is left there itself.

They wanted to see when the capsule falls what will be- Recoverable. -the vibrations

Right. Whether it is got - got - spoilt or it will be floating. Yeah.

That way we did experiment with Bhattacharya.

Yeah, I know, the reentry. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes.

We two also did some software - We have done. And inland waterway. We have done, yes.

Yes. I do not know. See, the faculty should go

far away to ask. Yeah. Now I see in the newspaper; as a retired person

I am reading: inland waterway is very very important. Some fellows are telling. Yes.

That way we have to go. See, we are having expertise,

we will be able to solve many problems, we have to tell. Yes.

But if teachers are in their ivory towers, nobody will come. Yes.

I think I'll be happy to state here now

based on the foundations that our predecessors

have laid including you of course.

Not like that... Today our interaction with the industry is quite intense.

It should be.

So, yeah of course,

if you visit the department you will see the amount of activity

we have with the shipyards,

national, international, yeah. And we should tell them: see we are having these multi-element wave maker, Yeah.

Using this we can do so many things. Right.

For example, Naval Physical Oceanographic Laboratory.

Laboratories yes. Underwater cable... it's all very very

important defence-oriented projects. Right.

On the look, it will be looking nothing. Right.

But these are all very useful. Yeah.

That way what will be the configuration of the cable... Right.

And vibration will take place... Yes.

Or what should be the force...

all such things we need some projects like that Yeah That is ...

we - people are going for - and Orissa and that port. Right.

Gopalpur port. Yes. Gopalpur port, from there all the way he came. Yeah.

Even now the approach trestle is constructed there... with our design . Absolutely, absolutely.

It is standing and Sundaravadivelu is still continuing as -

And Sundar and - Yes, he is the expert on ports and harbour structures

and Sundar and company - Another, another - - they are the experts on break waters.

which I will say my contribution is

I started this user-oriented M.Tech. program. Absolutely.

Yeah. For port engineers. Money was given by them.

Right. That is according to me it is the first-user oriented in IIT

Madras- program that you started.

They paid money. Yeah.

And their engineers came here and our syllabus was slightly modified

or electives are added which will be useful to them. Yes.

In that way, user-oriented...

and that is the starting point for the present user-oriented you are having

2 or 3 petroleum engineering - With L and T. L and T. L and T. All such things, yes.

we also have a program with NIOT.

User-oriented program for M.Tech. in Ocean Technology. Yeah.

Yeah, that is true.

So, I think people today should remember that

our predecessors have done a lot of wonderful foundation job

which anybody would have done,

but the important thing is, this kind of visionary,

No visionary - steps -

They should continue the project without any selfishness. Yes, absolutely, yes.

During my Headship. Yeah, I never took a single research student for myself,

because people should not say being Head, he has taken by all these things. Yes.

Yes. In that way for 4 years it is a webworm.

I would recall this personally in the case of many of our colleagues

where you saw to it that they are taking and guiding and

you know, producing the - or at least guiding for the Ph.D.s

in a time-bound fashion because I remember your cautionary statement always

that if you don't take care of yourself -

And you used to provide the most important impetus for that. Yeah.

Looking at - looking back at all those things

I just wanted to ask one more thing,

would you like to have a message to our colleagues today? No,

Please don't say no, because I would like to say, No-

Messages should be always given and old people will give

No, I would like to receive it with pleasure. Yeah.

See what I get - get an impression is nowadays many people are selfish. Yeah.

They feel they want to improve their own biodata

without bothering about the progress of the departments. Right.

That should be Yes.

And we should collaboratively - unity should be there.

Yes. Or cooperation should be there. You should have Right.

another person who is in another area, whatever it is. Right.

And do some projects; we have to go out of the way

and inform the ministry, no, departments

see we are capable of doing such and such things. Right.

Right. Please come. Right, yeah.

So, that would be the key to success, the key to collective growth, yes.

See, Team effort. Yeah For example,

yes, this is a, this - MRPS, MRPS something is there, no?

Right.

They are exporting. Yes.

They made, but unfortunately it is not satisfying the

international standard because there is a small gap. Yeah, yeah.

Myself and ... Chandy Yeah.

Visited there.

and they are applying the pressure - liquid pressure - everything, everything is same,

but when the - and temperature is there volcanizing.

At the temperature, it - it expands.

Yes. Therefore, the metal comes out. Okay.

That way we gave a solution that - this should not be done like that.

That way they did and that way the projection was not there.

Nothing to do with Ocean Engineering. Yeah.

But still. Yeah. Because of the experience in the - see,

Chandy did for this integrity monitoring using ... artificial... Of the structures.

Yes. Neural network. Yes.

All those things has helped us to -

and we got a project from ONGC. Right.

For the- Integrity monitoring of the structures. Artificial neural network

for integrity monitoring of structures. Right. Monitoring of structures.

We did an experiment. Yeah. It was quite good, we made a jacket tower.

Yeah.

Measured the ... dynamic characteristics. We cut it. Yes.

Damage, yeah. Then there the it can be shown, see.

And this can be identified by our ANN or software like that.

Yes, yes. We have to convince them. Right.

Because managing directors are not experts. Experts.

in, in that way

they can see this, oh, these fellows

they have some ideas, etcetera, they should know. Yeah,

I ... think that is a very important hallmark of our department

because we have been interdisciplinary. Because we have to come down. Yes,

We have been interdisciplinary for example, just to briefly share

I am doing a work for the defence related to the

ordinance factory, the infantry combat vehicles.

Because they are going to be amphibious.

So, as you said it is not a ship. Yes.

But then the moment it's in water - Land also it will come and - Yes.

So, you know, with that kind of a open mindset

we have been able to collaborate

very effectively with the industry. And they are the apt people for designing that hydrocoil.

Yes.

Nowhere else; except IIT Kharagpur, nobody else will do.

Exactly. Hydrocoil designing.

Exactly yeah.

Structurally, you can take the help of our people. Right.

See at the time ... there was a proposal to

buy submersible by the government.

Central government. Right, right. There were some meetings

I was also asked to attend there by some people

but fortunately the cost was very much. Enormous. The secretaries

decided not to buy yeah that way submersible ...

bought. Could have been bought, yeah.

...I should not forget to touch upon another aspect. Yes.

Because we were at a time not having all the experts for all the subjects

because of the highly interdisciplinary nature

of the syllabus of our programmes.

And I remember how you led from the front by taking on courses

in the undergraduate level and with that example

you saw to it that our colleagues also take on courses.

We had courses like mechanical handling systems.

That is exactly what I wanted you to touch upon

you know just for the benefit of the- See, mechanical handling department I had a good rapport.

With Professor Parameshwar no. Because I took there - what the design of the crane -

Yeah.

Which ... it was a M.Tech. course, two courses are there.

Mechanical Handling 1 and 2, I took. I was taking that

That way, I can ask them to - shipyards and all such things Two courses for this. See, Parameswaran was very good that way

he did. Right. And we got some projects, Chitram crane company Cranes.

and all these things. Who set up the crane in Cochin shipyard, yeah.

And Professor Parameswaran used to design that gear and all this. Right.

The structural things. Right. I used to do and

fabricated and it was - So, you know it was a.

- Mechanical handling Yeah.

For only marine, of course, Vijayan helped afterwards I do not know

our people themselves - Yeah we had. We had - had studied and

Mechanical Engineers also joining us. Yes. And ship structures, I was taking.

Then Bhattacharya studied, Right. And we were taking. Like that

each man prepared themselves to - That is what I am saying, so the

the most important aspect was that we had the courage

and we did the hard work and we solved our problems

and we gained in confidence.

See. Yeah. Now, if you see none of us are experts on anything.

You take Professor - Sundaravadivelu too

now he is doing in coastal structures, ship structures,

not ship structures, boat structures, etcetera. Right.

By experience, experience, experience he gained. Yeah.

Structures are structures. Yes. Then

how the loads come. Yes. That way, similarly yourself.

Yes.

Or Sundar. Yes. Like that, like that, like that, we study and bring it.

So, I think that is very important. That is - that has made a good difference in our approach

to handling our problems taking our teaching. We could have easily said, no sir exactly this is not our

area, we cannot run - Yes.

or look for another colleague to be hired. Yeah. To get M.Tech. Ocean Engineering,

We have to fight like hell at that time. Yeah.

To start M.Tech course engineering. See, there was opposition.

Some unwanted opposition: a centre cannot start a M.Tech course.

Right. It has unfortunately our name was called - Ocean Engineering Centre. Centre.

Right.

In that way I met Professor M. C. Gupta, Dean of

Academic Research. Right. He is that - etcetera, etcetera, etcetera,

everybody helped us. Correct.

Yeah, I think we have -

Only reason why Ocean Engineering Centre is

thriving now is we had this educational programme -

all other 4 IITs, it's went down. Yeah.

Yeah. Resource Centre, in IIT Bombay Right.

Nothing is there, Right. Except maybe 1 or 2.

But here we are having a whole - entire department by

that 150 crores, Yeah, it is a full-fledged department, yes. Which was

started by Nayudamma Committee. Right, right.

Then cryogenic. Right. Cryogenic is there,

but not as a department and all these things. Exactly.

Because we had this academic program, we were successful. Absolutely.

and I think we had the vision and open mind. And how we have spread. Yes.

Yes. ... some petroleum engineering, Yeah.

that, this, that, etcetera ... many things.

Yeah, today we are so busy and so full that we don't have the space

and of course, IIT is expanding.

So, we have solutions for going into

more common academic complexes and

you know, spreading out a bit in the institute.

So, I am so happy that...

Ah, then, You could recollect. About other than

academic programme what were the...

I was a warden in Saraswati hostel

that is all normal. Right. But how

some students came sir you helped me lot

and all this, that is all normal.

Then as Engineering Unit, Chairman - that was a

good post. Professor Natarajan was the Director. Yeah.

He gave me a very good appreciation. Yeah.

And all this. Though I opposed

a little earlier when he was not Director. Yeah. There is a - there was a proposal

to have a guest tours for IST.

Indian Society for Technical Education,

which had good rapport with somebody ...

Yeah. They wanted to have a guest house near

some prime location. As a Chairman of Estate we discussed.

And the Senate I opposed tooth and nail. I see,

It was to be within the campus or?

It was to be within the campus. No, I suggested it is very good to have a guest house,

but you have it above the NCC building - NCC building or something

there - You are right. not a independent guest house. IIT is not meant for giving

guest houses, etcetera for others. Right. Right. I told.

Then when I came out from the Senate room, one or two colleagues:

how you can tell like that

to the director?

It was very very good what you told, but it was very dangerous.

Again, again, now that you - it just takes my mind back to some other aspects

I would say you never hesitated to call a spade a spade.

You know - See, after going home - Professor Natarajan called me. Yes

At that time he was not director. Yeah.

He was IST Chairman or something like that. Right.

He told hey, why, how you're giving a space for ICSR,

but you refuse to give for IST. Yeah.

I said ICSR - ah, NIOT. Ok.

How you are giving NIOT space in IIT. Space, but not for IST

Yeah.

Why do you want to compare NIOT,

Government of India is giving a lot of money for the IIT

and the department, IST what they will give?

Yeah. They will come and go.

Chairman will come and go stay there.

Correct. For 2 days and go away. Right.

How can you compare like that? Yeah.

The same Director has given very good appreciation after my...

Which meant you - you had the.

No. Conviction to - to hold to what you felt was right

and it was proven right. That's more important.

See, there is space in the NCC building first floor, second floor,

third floor, we can construct and leave it. Yeah yeah.

And again to put it on record the same NIOT has today blossomed into a huge

institution with who we are very closely interacting. Yes.

Thanks to the very positive attitudes we had with them.

Yeah, again to recount, during your chairmanship of the

engineering I always thought or always observed

that you always went into the details of small things. For example,

in between the main gate. Yeah.

In-gate and out-gate there was this thorny bush. Correct.

Right. Before were they were trying, trying, trying - it was not

it is having a very environmental problem it will never get destroyed.

Exactly it is very pernicious. And it will not allow other plants

to grow. Right.

That way I gave contract and I assigned; it was completely removed

not only there, even near the hostels. Yeah.

And now it is a very good garden. Yeah. In between there

and also now is not to be seen.

Yeah, yeah, of course, it was a recent issue that people even went to court

how IIT could remove it and all, I think we have amicably resolved it.

No it will not allow - Yeah it is a very

pernicious plant - other plants to come. Exactly, exactly

Now, I remember because even those days

you know we have this peculiar problem of

so many banyan trees in this campus

and they would grow invariably with their seeds on buildings

creating crevices.

So, I remember in your time you had a mission

to remove them from all the buildings

because it was ruining the buildings eventually.

Not Yeah, which comes under the - yes, exactly,

so, it's always very important

to look into the minute details which makes a big difference.

See for example, this - Yeah. Right. Speed breaker.

Being a Civil Engineer I went to IRC, courts are there

how it should be ... marked. Laid yeah.

Yeah. I insisted our engineering unit to see that IRC

marking should be done on the ... speed breakers. On the speed breaker yeah.

They done and it was, Yeah yeah yeah yeah.

Previously, it was in a something else, ... laying on something. Yes, I remember, yes

to standardize it was taking a long time, yes.

I think one of the hallmark developments in our country was the

pioneering development that we did with regard to

wave energy in this country particularly with regard to the

oscillating water column and putting up a demonstrator plant at Vizhinjam.

So, if you could please tell us the genesis of that and how it went ahead,

the problems that we faced, how we resolved it, yes. I didn't resolve any problem.

See, wave energy is the brain child of Professor Indiresan.

Indiresan yeah.

It is very layman's approach type.

Yeah. See, when the energy is there, why not we

In that way at that time we had that 4-metre flume.

He took 2 drums.

Yeah. This - and the when the wave passes

it will move up and down. Oscillates, yeah.

And then it will have some ... and like it was bending and all these things. Yeah.

Yeah. That way he was convinced it will be very...

Right.

And there were there were many professors in IIT, not our Ocean. Right.

They said it doesn't satisfy the equation and all.

The energy. Thermal. Yeah.

Equilibrium itself.

Yeah. It doesn't satisfy the laws of thermodynamics, it will be a failure,

they told. And of course, they would have suffered also,

perhaps Professor Indiresan would not have liked it.

Then, then and that way, but; however, we had our Professor Raju

and Professor Ravindran. Right.

Who, when, Ravindran being a mechanical engineer, Yeah.

they were doing a lot.

And we are - as a department, we gave all the support. Right.

Though I never got involved because it is not my area. Right.

It is area of Professor Ravindran and of course, Professor Raju

also, in that way it was going on. Yeah.

And fina- in ... they made a prototype. Right.

On that they got money from the government - central government,

the real problem as I see are ICSR at that time.

It is false, fluctuating. Fluctuating.

Energy. Right.

Therefore, if you take an average it will never be useful.

Ok. It cannot be converted to the

Sustained useful. Sustained useful conversion into energy, right.

... but I see because of that they should not leave. Yeah.

They tried their level-best with the prototype also. Right.

But it was not really successful. Yeah

possibly it was technical, but not commercially successful. Yes. Yeah.

I mean. Yeah. And another thing they wanted to do ... ocean thermal energy.

Right yeah. When there is difference between the depth

Yeah.

Here the- Surface water, yeah. Temperature is less.

And they brought a scheme in Lakshadweep we can have.

Yeah. Shore-supported ocean energy. Right.

Etcetera, etcetera. Right. But I didn't see that as a commercial.

That is true, yeah. It didn't come up.

They, I don't think they have created directly electrical energy

or power out of it but I think they have been using it for desalination

using the cold water from the bottom and the surface warm temperature

and running a reverse refrigeration cycle or

flash evaporation yeah. In this case, it has not reached a commercial point. Yeah

Possibly the place Lakshadweep you can justify

because they do not have any choice yeah. But at that time still they are telling

nothing is coming up. Yeah. They could - see, as I told. you should convince the

decision-maker. Right. They should

go and tell the decision-maker, whoever it is.

Right. Then if he is convinced he will say,

there if it has not come, the mistake is you should not - we have not. As clear yeah.

Or it is not capable of. Correct, correct, correct, yeah.

When coming to the GATE. Yeah.

See at that time Common Entrance Examination for Postgraduate Admission.

CEPA. CEPA.

Other IITs were joining with our IIT for a few periods. Right.

then they said, no, no, we are going away. That way our IIT continued.

And we conduct the exam

we publish the results. Yeah.

Based on the result they used to give admission also. Right.

CEPA, that is - So, CEPA was the prelude to the GATE.

GATE. Yeah.

Just above before we stop.

Yeah. I was the controller - they will appoint a controller. For conducting

And joint-controller. Right.

Joint-controller will be controller for next year. Right.

That way, like that, last class

I was controller and a joint-controller was

Professor Padmanabhan - K. Padmanabhan Metallurgy. Metallurgy.

Right, yeah.

That way, when Professor Padmanabhan became

controller, at the time itself, GATE has come.

Right. And it was stopped and it has

...transitioned to - GATE Transformed into the GATE. Gate, right, right.

Yeah. It was a very, very tough job. Right yeah.

Secrecy is so much. Yes.

Secrecy is so much. Yes.

Even for the proof correction of question papers.

We should not get the ... help of others. Yeah, right. All such

things were there in that way, our IIT did very well. Yes. Even today

JEE etcetera is done at the topmost, secretly. Yes.

Yeah, definitely, there is an example of how to conduct an exam

and how to take on the aspects that there is no league,

there is no malpractice, there are no mistakes

and I know it is a nerve-racking thing.

So, you pioneered the CEPA and then it became the GATE. No pioneering

I was - It was a - It was running on.

Was it already running many years? I see.

4, 5, 6 years. 4 - 5 years ok. Yes. So, it evolved