Ok. How are you Professor Subramaniam?

Oh I'm doing fine.

Ok. See for the general information

let me state that I am actually from Madras University

with an MA MS degree and Master’s Degree

with the second rank. Then of course, I was debating

what to do for some time then I decided to go abroad

for higher studies even though I was also selected

for the Air Force to be very surprisingly.

But I decided to go abroad.

So, I went to Columbia University with the help of the

Fulbright Fellowship which was given by the United States

Education Foundation. USA.

In India and also a scholarship

from Columbia University itself

that that was my Ph.D. that's where I did my Ph.D.

with the famous Professor by name famous,

but very young professor by name Professor Harry B. Gray.

It's a kind of a new field in which was beginning

to work crystal field theory and spectroscopy.

Then of course, after getting my degree in 1966,

I moved to Michigan State University

to work as a you know research associate cum

assistant professor for a period of about 3 years.

Ok. Meanwhile I just went came here.

In those days you cannot come to.

Very often. India quite often. So, I went home

only after 4 years of stay at Columbia University.

So, I stayed for 3 years there we learn

new spectroscopic techniques compared to what

I had done in the I have I have done

in Columbia University then of course,

from there I was directly recruited by

IIT Kanpur for for an assistant professorship post.

So, I went to IIT Kanpur as my first stay.

subsequently I decided to not I decided

other people decided my fate that's both

Professor A. Ramachandran there in director

of the director of IIT Madras.

And probably the one who really brought in

the experts from various faculty into the institute

and with the compulsion from C.N.R. Rao

I landed up at IIT Madras in the year 1972

February month. That was what I specifically remember.

Thereafter of course, I was part of the chemistry department,

but at the same time one-day

Professor Ramachandran called me and said; now

as I already requested you without telling others

that you are going to be in charge of the

special instruments laboratory.

And then he asked me I wanted to

take in two more people who could just

go with you for higher things

and I said ok, sure of course,

I do know there are couple of guys who can

join me and I turned out to be I said

see my basic interest was quantum mechanic,

quantum chemistry and spectroscopy.

So, I have to rely on similar people

in order to develop a big laboratory.

So, then of course, I chose Professor

Sardar Surjit Singh as well as Professor Subramaniam.

And both of them have similar expertise only

thing there are small differences in our expertise.

So, for example, they join and then we three

became what is it called leaders.

Some people you know he wants to say some people

call us three musketeers outside,

but doesn't matter, but I was the leader leader of the team

and then of course, we created from specially first took

charge of the special instruments laboratory

which was originally a gift by the Indo German project.

Is by the Germans. It was a very fantastic project,

but unfortunately when I went through the instruments

I found it lagging its lagging in sophistication

and I was accustomed to you know

I was talking to you on my way

I had already used an expand EPS spectrometer

the cube and and that what liquid and liquid helium temperatures.

So, I cannot I cannot accept it.

So, I wanted more and that was the starting

of the regional sophisticated instrumentation.

Before you chapter. Center concept

that you know no I. Let me come to that point.

That was initiated actually

Professor A. Ramachandran. Alright.

So, now, I am going to up to that point.

Sure sure. Then we can go on together.

So, I am actually from the Tamilnadu state,

but my father was working in a place called

Kottayam in Kerala and so, I shifted from

Tamilnadu after my school for college

education to a place called CMS College, Kottayam

that is the oldest one of the oldest

colleges in the country celebrated

its 200th year earlier this year with

the chief guest was the former

former President Pranab Mukherjee.

So, that institute had was starting

postgraduate degrees in Chemistry.

So, I did my Master's in CMS College, Kottayam

and then probably the Atomic Energy used to

pick up the top rankers for Bombay Atomic Energy.

So, I attended the interview in Trivandrum

they selected me as a scientist for Atomic Energy

went to Bombay probably Atomic Energy Commission

started working on isotopes and isotopic separations

and started using isotopes in agriculture

and Mõssbauer Sources and many things I did.

And then it was slowly turning out to be

there the atomic energy is not probably the place

for persons who want to do really

interesting research work, its more like conforming

to what atomic energy wants because there are

when narrow, but really important projects

that you have to work on,

but you cannot do anything you want.

So, I decided it was time for me to quit, there was a 3-year bond

so, after about two and half years

I started applying for scholarship to outside.

I got a Fellowship and Boston University

and went to the head of the department

Professor VK Iya. Sir, I have a scholarship

I want to go to Boston, can you give me

3 years long leave without pay?

Are you kidding? There are so many people on the

queue, you go to USA and I got scholarship

we cannot give, you wait for atleast 4 or 5 years

then I went to the second head Deshpande

he is a Maharashtrian, I told him sir I wanted leave

and they are not giving me. Can you suggest

one interesting way? You go home

on a leave and don't come back.

But what about my bond?

Nobody was worry about you already done 2 years

and 9 months. So, 3-year bond.

So, no problem let you go.

So, by then the Boston Fellowship expired.

They had given me 3 months and I was corresponding

with the Atomic Energy and by that time they said

no, it was more than 5 months.

So, I was frustrated and lo and behold another scholarship

offer came from UK. I had applied it through a

advertisement nature last page.

A Simmons place. Simmons.

So, Let's tell. Young man I have a scholarship

for you, you just tell me when you want to come.

Bolt from the blue. So, I went to England, did my Ph.D. in

the field which was just emerging. It's called

electron paramagnetic resonance and this Martin Simmons

the professor was one of the pioneers in the field globally.

So, he took me and trained me and

we had lovely time. I even remember that

I got down at the airport in London.

And he was waiting at the passengers arrival

and he asked me you are yes you must be

because this the only Indian coming out this flight is you.

So, you must be can you tell your name?

I said my name is Sankaran Subramanian.

Oh my God, that is too long. From today I

christen you Subbu. You will be called Subbu.

I said fine that really stuck even today he calls me

Subbu. Subbu. All the students call me Subbu.

So, I did my Ph.D. there, this was another

I can't usually people take 3 to 4 years for a Ph.D.,

I have finished it in 23 months my Ph.D. At the end of the Ph.D.

I went to the registrar, little bit of a personal story,

I went to the registrar told them I want to submit with thesis.

Young man you have done only 23 months,

you know the rules, minimum two and a half years before

you submit the thesis and then what am I supposed to do?

Go and wait for another 6 months.

So, I went to my professor he says submit the thesis

and go on leave. We can take the viva voce later. Go home

go to India and comeback. Subbu on other hand

at Columbia, we had their thorough grinding.

The first year is it only for doing.

Course work. Course work.

Only for course work and then you have to give a seminar.

Yes. At the end of the seminar they decide

whether you are going to stick on in the

at Columbia University or going to be thrown out.

If they throw out a person if they have little

reasonable record they give up some kind of a

Master’s degree and throw them out. Yes.

Comfortably, the rest of them are retained.

Yeah. So, and it takes minimum four and a half years

there, but there is no such only, you can do it earlier its ok.

In UK there are no strict coursework,

but you can audit all the coursework,

but then by the time I finished 23 months

I already have 10 publications in very good journals.

So, actually there is no justification

for denying me my degree.

So, anyway I came to India, spent a couple of months

went back and got my Ph.D. in in the university

its called University of Leicester, written as Leicester.

And after my Ph.D. I did one-year post with the same

professor and started looking for jobs in India.

Applied to Tata Institute for Fundamental Research,

they call me for an interview, took another leave,

came Tata Institute for Fundamental Research,

Professor Balu Venkataraman was a chairman was the chief of

spectroscopy. He also asked me.

He interviewed me after sometime

hey, are you interviewing

you are you are interviewing us?

I started asking too many questions

I said sir I just wanted curiosity because

what I will be doing I was just looking at.

So, he said you are sir you are taken no problem,

but we are going to give you only a visiting position.

I said sir I don't want a visiting position in India.

If I was an American if you give me a visiting position

I will accept that. Why do you give me a visiting position

when I am an Indian? But that is rule here,

you have to be a visiting man and then after

3 4 years we will think about it.

I said sorry sir, I don't want it.

So, I came back and there was a

Postdoc Fellowship waiting from Michigan State University.

Lo and behold I just understood later on he had just.

I had just left I was the same. Professor professor.

There was a Canadian there called Professor Max Rogers. Then I joined the Michigan State.

It was very productive year because he was

a magnanimous guy this professor.

So, Subbu and I somewhat you know not

overlapped, but of course, we followed it. He

Yes. followed me and I followed him

and similarly I followed him at IIT Madras

that's what the. Yes. So, I I joined the IIT Madras

about three months earlier than he came from IIT Kanpur.

So, after my Postdoc Fellowship at Michigan,

I went to the Embassy in Washington looking for

jobs in the newly emerging IITs.

So, there was an education secretary he said

Professor Ramachandran IIT Madras director

will be here. So, he would like to visit engineers

and scientist who are interested in coming back to India.

So, you can go and meet him.

So, actually I didn't have any chance to talk to him

because there was a lot of engineers were waiting to

get to India. So, I was in the back bench of that room

and then at the end of the thing he said anybody

who is interested in this new IIT Madras,

if you have a good recommendation from your professor

just contact us. So, I went back to my professor and told him

Sir, I want to go to my native place.

I am from India from South India

there is an institute coming.

So, he said ok, I will send a recommendation

Sent a letter. He must have written a super letter

recommendation letter because normally we wait

for 6 months nothing happens you know from India.

I waited for 3 months. There was a Western

Union Telegram signed by registrar of IIT Madras

Sethunathan was the registrar at that time. Yeah.

Appointed as assistant professor, we shall

provide money towards your travel to India

and also accommodation will be provided on campus

and what else you want to come back to India?

I jumped on it. At the time I already had

a position in Texas Tech. I told the professor sir I got

something in my own home country, I am going back.

He said no no go back. Similarly.

If you are not happy you can always come back

to Texas what you told me. So, I came and joined here

and met Ramachandran, I was just really so

happy that I am coming back to India number 1,

number 2 to an IIT which is just about

10 years old at the time. I joined in 1971

79 it started. 79, yes.

And. You joined in you joined in 71.

Yes 71 November. I have actually.

And he joins 72 February. I have gone to IIT Kanpur in 69 end.

And then of course, I left in 72 very early 72.

Right. So, that is because of two different reasons.

One is Ramachandran wanted me to have have me there.

So, they didn't tell me, but of course,

C.N.R. Rao was pushing me hey come

let's go to Madras you just meet the director of IIT Madras.

I also came and of course, there was a huge

set of people all from the top round like

Professor C. R. Kanekar from Kanekar.

TIFR. from TIFR and our Naidu who was in the.

CL. Director general of CL I mean director

of the same later he became the director general of CSIR

and so on and so forth; 9 people were interviewing me.

So, I was just looking at them answering all their questions,

I went away immediately I was called in only person

oh one person they had an interview and the they called me

he called me and said I am offering you the position

of professorship you want to come you must join.

I said you said you want me to come here

I C.N.R. Rao told me only to go for an interview,

now you are calling me to come and join.

Then, if you want to come me then I have to

have few conditions to belay I told you very bluntly,

I have a few conditions because I know

about the department here and I have to

survive on my own model. I am an independent person.

So, I should have lot of independence to work with.

So, I need this this this this you are giving too much of

list how am I going to give it, but I will give it

you come anyway. So. There was Ramachandran.

Ramachandran come anyway and within

2 months and they forced me to come C.N.R. Rao said

you go there you will prosper that's what I I still remember.

So, finally, I landed up here and as Subbu was

they already for 3 months ago even little earlier

Surjit Singh has join. So, when Ramachandran

at the time he said you are going to be in charge of

Special Instruments Laboratory which was given as a gift

by the Germans. Ok. I will take care of it.

I said you are going to be in charge, but

you need two more people because its a big place

and I want you to develop it as a big place bigger place.

So, whom do you want? I looked around and of course,

by that time I know most of the people here their interests,

there are two peoples interests were coinciding with mine

quantum chemistry and spectroscopy.

Only thing is he and I are believing in

magnetic resonance more ok. He is more of a

magnetic resonant than me, but I involved in all form

of spectroscopy and Professor Surjit Singh is a

molecular spectroscopy’s involved in you know

what's called optical as well as optical IR and Raman.

So, people thought putting together

its a fantastic gang to do this spectroscopic investigation.

So, then of course, we had a chance what to do next ok.

We cannot stop here and of course, by the time

Professor Ramachandran you know I I never

seen an administrator like him. You go to him with a problem

even before when he gives a appointment

he already knows what for he has come

what for I have got I gone to him

and he gives you the solution also.

So, within 5 within 2 to 5 minutes

he interviews and if the problem is taken

care and you come back and then one day

totally different you think about something developing

the bigger lab. And ESD has a programme like this

you apply for it. So, that's how I started

I I wrote the programme with the help of

these two guys programme I am creating the first

and premier Regional Sophisticated Instrumentation Centre.

A new concept in in what is called sharing the

the kind of equipment that we have

for our benefit as well as the benefit of the entire nation.

I nobody has ever thought about

a centre like this from which will serve from

Kanyakumari to Kashmir the whole country.

So, that's was that was the bet

and that happened in 1974

and Subbu will tell you how we got the first equipment.

Because in India creating sophisticate equipment is itself

is very expensive everything is imported from foreign exchange,

foreign exchange was a tough thing during the 70s.

You know we do not have the. Tough thing yeah, there was

Nothing you have to ask for special permit. Yes.

And foreign exchange was given even

when that such a difficult equipment is imported

and given to your professor, the professor will hover

over it and use it only for himself. He won't give it to anybody else.

None of is to none of the students even in the same

institute will have the benefit of the equipment.

Therefore, this possessiveness really prevented a

quite lot of number of people not having access

to this although they were there within the same premises

they could not get their hands onto it.

Plus they are not able to

come accross that. So, the idea of importing very expensive

sophisticated equipment and willing to share it

whoever come first come first serve

that concept was highly appreciated by Ramachandran.

The idea was from PT and myself we wrote the

whole idea of how we are going to do it

and then he he said lot we submitted the

project correct me if I am wrong

submit the project waiting for 3 months

about two and half months. Then suddenly

we got a phone call saying that there is a guy

called Mr. Santhanam, he was a secretary. Secretary

in the Railway Department. Unbelievable.

And he is being deputed to discuss with you

and Manoharan and the director about the project

which we are really interested.

So, we are very happy something is going to happen.

Santhanam comes research to Manoharan and

me and Surjit for about 15 minutes

I think the project is granted you will get

Granted all the money you want. Tell me what do you want now.

Now this thing. even though the listing never happened in the history of India

you write the project it go through projects reviewing

and you go on reminding for 3 months 6 months 9 months

and finally, something comes and you ask for 20 lakhs

you get 3.3 lakhs something like this, this kind of ratio.

See at that time. Here he says they just granted

its a grand idea, we love it,

we are especially happy because it is an IIT campus

where the infrastructure is fantastic

and we told them then even if

the most sophistic equipment you import

you will make sure an electronics person

is trained in the factory of that particular company.

So, that you will be able to do troubleshooting

without much delaying. So, that was the concept. What is.

Santhanam went back and we got the grant

first grant, I think about 20 or 30 lakhs

I don't remember. 30 lakhs 30 lakhs which.

micronic resonance spectrometer. No no.

In NMR. 30 lakhs was granted.

Out of which 20 lakhs which is an Irish grant.

Yes. Dedicated to the purchase of the first

NMR big NMR 100 NMR. Pulse spectrometer.

Pulse spectrometer the first of its kind

to come to an India. They didn't have in IIT Bombay

They didn't had it. They never had it in atomic energy, nobody.

but IIT Madras had it. They had a they had a big

some dirty equipment in IIT Kanpur its not comparable to

ours because ours is a pulse fourier transform. NMR instrument.

100 megahertz NMR the first of its kind.

The kind of work that I I did what I remember is

you have to get so much permission.

They have to go to Director General of Technical Development

and there is an office called Director General of Technical

there you have to go talk to the guys get the necessary.

Justify the import. And you know that justify the import

and what not and finally, prepare local preparation. Yes.

But I must tell you there is one important concept

that we have developed which was ahead of everyone (incoherent speech)

as he is already party pointed it out that is

we had two sets of technical staff.

The one set up technical staff is nothing

but an operating technical staff.

He knew the science behind it

he knew how to operate the instrument.

He is someone who will collaborate with

or otherwise he will discuss with the consumers

or users, including our students.

And then of course, there is a second set of

technical assistance who are electronics personnel

and this is something that is special.

The most important advantage of it

ours is the only centre of that kind

which is importing a foreign equipment,

but no service is expected from them.

We never send a annual maintenance

contract with any company. So it remained internal.

We have beautiful people we have such great people.

Yes. Shantanu, Devasahayam, Palani Swami and so on and so forth.

Yes. Some of them were trained initially at the

Central Electronic Centre, then it was Mr. Rakha

the German profession who was in charge who was in charge. Yeah yeah.

And he liked our style of operation. Yes.

He and his boss liked our style of operation

he said who do you want from the

Central Electronics and I will bring them.

So, I said give me about three people.

So, initial set up three people came.

Yes. And one of them is Palaniswami Palaniswami, Devasahayam and Kamala Anand.

Kamala Anand etcetera etcetera so. In fact, these people

are so, good in electronic troubleshooting then

we will send them to Agarwal Eye Clinic

to repair the de-coagulator for the cataract operation. Yeah.

They were sent into Sankara Nethralaya for repairing equipment

because they didn't have any expertise and to get

somebody from UK or USA they come and

repair is too expensive they just give a call to IIT Madras

we send a technician we don't charge them because

its a charitable institution. But you know all this is

stupid on our part now it should have cost

a lot of money by way industrial consultancy

and we didn't do that it was all free

we did the service came back

probably with a cup of cup of tea.

ICSR did not exist at that time, ,

later on only the Industrial Consultancy

Sponsor Research started that way you know.

And the expansion took place that's what is

very important the expansion took place.

Now, we got almost all the sophisticated equipment.

I am telling really sophisticated equipment

not available to anybody in most of the institutions

even Indian Institution of Science did not have

what we wanted. We we brought imported you see

what's called X-band and Q-band spectrometers.

Right. Spectrometers.

and also we have the system which can go down to

liquid nitrogen temperature later

also with the Euclidean temperatures and so on

and then laser on and spectrometer and then of course

Fourier IR you name it and and then

turned out one of my interest is crystallography.

So, we decided to go in also for crystallography. Crystallography yeah.

Right across our road in the Guindy Centre

for the for Madras University there was a

Crystallography Centre which was once headed by

Professor. G. N. Ramachandran. G N. Ramachandran.

So, now, they thought that we are competing with them

and not only that and we did much better results

than them in one of the conferences somebody said

if you want to get any crystal structure,

you know structure made you go to IIT Madras

he said no no go to IIT University of Madras

to that extent we have been servicing the

people. The service is to be extend of

40 to 45 percent for local people including us

and the remaining is for all people outside

and Subramanian has already mentioned it

that unites on first come first serve basis.

Yeah. Occasionally so happens.

Then, the mandate once we have been borrowing

such a lot of money from the government and even an IIT

and there are large number of colleges and universities

where there are teachers teaching subjects without

the knowledge behind it without any hands on experience

behind it especially teachers who teach post graduate

chemistry and physics. So, we started every summer

two or three summer schools. A summer school

on X-ray crystallography, currently there is one is running now.

Now, the first principle if you remember first one is on

quantum mechanic quantum chemistry in spectroscopy. Spectroscopy yes.

Its a three week intensive course. Yes.

Unbelievable thing. Lot of senior professors came

we wrote all the lecture notes and two kind of

bible like big books were made

and we gave everyone a book and

they are using even today some of them are using

for teaching the post graduate classes. Yeah. Yeah.

So, the summer schools on all subjects

take a particular subject of importance,

run it for three or four days for post post graduate students,

college teachers throughout the region

as well as throughout the world the country

people will come, give them accommodation,

give them travel sometimes give them food and give them Yeah, that money is provided by.

lectures and many people benefited from them. Right.

Some of them are now retiring from the

professorship. The DST actually provided

subsequent fund. Funds also.

For education purposes. Yes.

So, that also we did, not just operating

the instruments and of course,

you know we are also getting benefit.

So, one thing the even though we were having a

centre they never last sight of our own academic

performance. The most important thing is teaching

on behalf of the Chemistry Department,

sometimes even the physicists used to come and

sit in our courses like Master of Spectroscopy

and then of course, what happened is

that we designed a new courses in fact,

near the systematically we designed a syllabus.

Yeah. New courses.

New courses and then of course, we proceeded for that

in the sense and what to do?

Then of course, we begin the conduct on specific subjects. Yes.

Like you know spectroscopy. The advanced level process.

Advanced level. Yeah.

All these things. So, we were and we never lost sight of

none of us lost never lost sight of the

you know what's called teaching. Teaching.

And research research. Yes.

We were doing not only teaching, administering this place Yes.

and also you know what is called we are doing lot of research.

And we as the largest. The professors published more than about 600 papers.

They are together, yeah. During the tenure here.

Several books were written by the faculty

and. And several Ph.D.s were put in

we produced the maximum number of Ph.D.s. Yes

although it’s a small department, department

we we work for the Chemistry Department.

Of course, the Chemistry Department

was quite happy when we joined all the three of us joined,

then it turns out when Professor Ramachandran

and the director called as you three people

manage all the German equipment

the Chemistry Department starts to getting worried

Will we have access to this?

and these three guys new guys have come

and suddenly all the instrument has been handed over

to them. What happens to us

in the Chemistry we got all the German equipment

at that time Professor N.V.C. Sastry was the

head of the department, who is also responsible

for constructing the Applied Chemistry Block.

Block at that time yes. And he got money from

government, he got a lot of equipment from

Germany and work day and night to construct

their Chemistry Department and became one of the

top Chemistry Department in the country

and they were a little bit worried so,

they thought these three are kind of

first class citizens and we are

second class citizens these are the thing

what is happening? Then we told them

just assured these equipments are as

easily accessible to you as it is to outsiders

because definitely its more accessible to you

it is in the neighbour next room.

So, slowly and steadily that little difficulty vanished.

And also we gave some what's called a

separate urgent appointments for some other faculty

like Professor V. Viswanathan. Yes.

And then we even bought a special equipment like

fluorescence spectrometer for to satisfy another

faculty member by name Ramakrishnan. Yes.

Whatever possible help they could give to the department. See we could help them

Yeah. In addition to helping ourselves.

Yeah So, we did that.

So, that was now they realized ok

we are we are here only to help them

rather than you know its a take away that prestige

to us the its went on very well. So,

that way it was going on well and by and large

it was working well until we retired.

So Surjit Singh passed away and Manoharan became

Vice Chancellor of Madras University. that's in the

but even before that there are many things to say

for example, Then I took a voluntary retirement after 28 years,

I took a voluntary retirement to go to United States

to work on imaging of cancer tissues

and so, the institute had some not really

correct policy by way in my way of appointing

temporary heads of department for this centre.

So, for 2 years it will be a mechanical engineer

there won't be any. Subbu before there is many more

things that we have to say about RSIC itself.

RSIC was functioning very well without any problem

not only that we are responsible for the opening

of the RSIC in four other places. Yes.

Bombay, Shillong I have personally went to Shillong

and told them how to do that. Lucknow.

And they come they used to come Lucknow and

also Chandigarh. This, but nobody could beat us

Yes. with respect to performance they even the DST used

to say everything is happening here

you are only advising them what can we do

how to make it better, but of course,

I did told them that we would do that,

but within the institute immediately

there was a realization of course,

Ramachandran went away

Professor Pandalai took over for some time

and then Professor Narayan put then afterwards

Professor Indiresan came in. Yes.

As the director there was a new activity

when Indiresan came in I think that's

that's your time ok, there was a new kind of an act.

Indiresan realize there are a few guys in this place

you know who can do things.

So, I went to him first I asked him

I want a new building for myself.

He said you want a new building for yourself

yes because I have so many equipment

that are lying down here there etc.

its all scattered I want to come to my own place.

So, he said ok, here you are given the money

go build it. So, first two floors came up.

Behind CLT. And the behind CLT that's what the

Regional Sophisticate Instrumentation sign was there

until some time back, then you know

what happened they also found out

that we have good administrators we can get

along with people and so on and so forth.

So, one day he asked me,

why don't you become a warden?

That's not my territory I told him.

No no I am going to subqueue for

something else ok, you are going to be the

chief warden no no that's also I don't want

no I said. You are going to do this Common.

because there is a lot of problem in that

in that place. Wardens, hostel warden.

Hostel sector there was a big problem

between the workers and students.

So, first he wanted me to meet the student committee.

I went there I was actually perplexed to see

100 people sitting down there like in a Senate hall.

We have a lesser Senate members

than they have in that committee.

I said how do you manage with this committee.

We cannot, I want this be reduced to 13 or 14.

Even it is the student were how can you do that?

I will do it if you do that I will continue to

work for you otherwise I am just going away

I have my beautiful place to do research and

teaching I will do it then they thought ok then of course,

they gave me the permission and cut down that committee,

committee number and we acted upon it

the hostels should became better and of course,

the relationship was established then he

post me dean of students for a couple of years

and that was my I mean what I call as a most

stressful time. These took my friends

they went out of the country sabbatical.

Right at the same time. Yes.

And I must here alone manning the

manning the RSIC as well as the dean of

students position. It was a tough time,

but we had also the most interesting thing

was what was called open house concept.

Professor Indiresan said why don't you have

open house for every. Everybody

knows about IIT, they don't know what is inside.

So, you should bring them in.

That is still happening now, everyday. I did that for the first time,

first open house was done by me.

And then when they were; why I am saying is

finally, when they went through the gate

went through the RSIC, they were amazed wow, from that

you know you have seen on those books that is the sketchbook

is that the everybody has written they don't understand

a big big equipment. So, expensive

and people are operating with these.

So, this is a this this this this one aspect of it

that should not be forgotten that man,

but there is one thing I must say about the

character of the faculty of IIT Madras.

I am a junior faculty compared to most of the

senior professors here, but still

when I told them the open house is going to be

conducted with my chairmanship

all of them came. People like very senior

people like you know Varghese and

Professor E.G. Ramachandran they came

gave advice and then of course, they listened to my

way of conducting things etc. they

it was a great success. Of course, cooperation

among the faculty it is extremely. Faculties unbelievable.

Incredible good, yeah. That time I found out why IITs are like this,

this is because when time demands

when occasion demands they will always come together.

We put a really unified face effort

inside that they will little little little difficulties and

differences, but it does not show on then.

And similarly for example, we conducted for example,

myself or Subramanian will conduct several conferences,

international conferences in here

we brought some other stalwarts from various subjects

you know people came from Russia like Bersuker.

Yes. Liechtenstein.

Yes. And then from the U.S. I have Solomon

and many other people and similarly he brought some people around.

Klaus Mobius, Klaus Mobius. Klaus Mobius from Berlin.

He brought. So, like this. And

He used to bring a large number of. John Bilbrough from.

John Bilbrough from John. Quit a number of top people

I says in this field.

They were very happy to come to the campus and

they enjoyed the campus of course,

they did enjoy the RSIC, but they

looked at the deers and the monkeys and and the campus

they were very happy to be in the camp

I think two or three Germans came here and stayed for a month.

Yeah. Gave a series of lectures.

Of course, we have put them in you know overnight trains to Kerala

and other places for sightseeing and all that.

It was it was nice and then let us talk about the

department and also. Ok.

Talk about extracurricular activities. Ok.

and things like that. Ok.

Extra academic activities. Regarding the RSIC,

though RSIC is a separate centre

both budgetary as well as the management

operation wise. We were also effectively involved

with the department effectively involved with the department.

In fact, Professor Sastry before he left

initially he fought with me because I wanted independence

he didn't like it, but later he found out

that I can support him.

So, he said you are in charge of seminars

you are in charge of that you are in charge.

So, he additionally loaded us

similarly for example, Subramaniam was asked to

do certain jobs etc.

whatever is given build in it. So,

the three of us that's why they call us

you know three musketeers

and I would like to tell you in the in terms of recognitions

three Indiresan was Indiresan was very close to us

the the all the three of us. Yeah.

And he also made me sports advisor

because we are not being building the inter IIT

continuously for 6 or 7 years

then by luck when I took over a sports advisor

it was at that time IIT Bombay

and we came with the trophy

came back and Indiresan was very happy

a big party was thrown in Indiresan’s

director's house's lawn, it was fabulous.

And also Indiresan for the first time. And Indiresan always he is very very close to students

students very reacting yeah.

For the first time in my capacity as the dean of students

he told me in fact, I can't say its mine,

he told me, Manoharan how about

calling teacher evaluation. I told him I have no problem,

but there may be some people who may find it a

problem, what do I do?

Then he said you start it.

So, I started as a dean of students that's my work.

Its its actually partly it should be

due to the dean of academics. Yes, dean of academics of course.

But but he said ok you do this work.

So, I took it over genuinely

and then consulted some other things like in

the United States how they do it

and then I prepared a questionnaire

I I questionnaire. Students will answer.

For the students also students were given a chance to

you know chance to address this institute. Evaluate.

They were very good. Unfortunately, I caught

the wrath of some of the faculty.

So, he wants boosting himself.

So, he wants to create this and all his questions are

designed that way, no if you want to give more questions

I am ready to include. But, I included and of course,

the best teachers were selected on the basis of

the input from the students and of course,

the best input came from the first year B.Tech. students. Yes.

And M.Sc. student first year,

but that was continued and so.

I I have been attending the prize

ceremony for first in the last two years

I have been attending here, they are giving 10,000 rupees

or 20,000 rupees. I was best teacher three times

they gave you a slip of paper.

But he might as what he said

the first two years. Computer output came,

you got the top rank in best teaching, congratulations Indiresan.

But in my case its of course I wanted this director you know

if you want call back the old best teachers and

give them some special price. I said no So, again, if you look at it

not only the open house, but also this

they teach that teacher evaluations.

First he initially opposed, but then everybody found out

there must be something to in this because

we get a kind of a ragging etc.

So, then you will be finally, within about 2 years

or 100 percent of the faculty fell in line to

Yeah yeah self-evaluations only for our own good.

So, that we can improve.

Because its not only self-evaluation its course evaluation also

they can also give Another thing I love in this institute

is teaching first B.Tech students.

Because they are creme de la creme

From all India basis you have really the top creme coming

to IIT Madras. So, to teach them is not only a pleasures

its a challenge they will ask you more difficult questions

and they are very attentive and I remember

I was teaching first year engineering

chemistry, quantum chemistry, molecular structure

things like that people get interested.

They will come one or two of them will

come and sit by M.Sc. classes

to see what I am teaching then come with a

night because I am one of those workaholics

during my first 10-20 years, so they will go home for a cup of

coffee at 5 o'clock. 8 o'clock I have my dinner,

8:30 I am back in RSIC and

all my research scholars will have to come

because the professor is here. So, we might also work.

Thats it. So, students are working

up to 12 o’clock in the night 1 o’clock RSIC

will always be lit up in the night.

RSIC will be always lit. Always lit up with the his student.

The director comes and say. My students Surjit's students

20 of them at all times working late at night.

With they. They also sometimes daytime you will not see them,

but 7 o'clock 8 o'clock after the dinner

they all be there discussing among themselves

doing some book club you know take a new book

and then start reading each other so, like that.

So, the B.Tech. students especially I love

them because they will come to my room in the night,

with the new question sir they say you are

doing MRA magnetic resonance tell us all about it.

Hey its not your syllabus no no I want to know about it

some two other students will come then I will go

to the black board explaining things to them

that way a bunch of undergraduate students

became very close to me. They were the people said sir

can you conduct a quiz programme for us

on the next morning. I said sure I can do that.

Let me see. So, two or three students

who are extremely quiz nuts will keep

all sorts of bizarre facts. They will keep

also they will go to various quiz programmes in various

festivals and then keep track of the questions

they got and then they have created some booklets of

quizzes and all that. I said these things are work

which is I will do it myself. I have an Encyclopedia Britannica

at home. When there is nothing else do I go through a

think really some curious bizarre out of this fact.

So, at the question when it is put everybody will

struggle hard to answer that kind of a thing.

So, I started doing it the first one was

done in 1972 January,

after one year after joining here

we started it in CLT, I also had

some music question some movie questions

even had a players from

Madras Players come at act a play in the

stage and ask question some that.

I did that. CLT can get only 300 people inside

if you pack them. All the 1000 people wanted to

go inside CLT they broke the door and really

damaged the CLT. So, that year the quiz programme

was good, but lot of damage to the CLT.

So, director said take it away, don't do it anymore in

CLT. And then the Television Lab said we will provide you big

monitors 12 of them or 6 of them

around the OAT so, we can ask questions on

videos and use the stage and then we will project

everything onto the big screen and have quiz

programme. Next year the quiz programme was attended by

3000 people all the city students were there

then I also started making it longer starting at 7

go to 11. Next year started 7 went up to 12,

by the time we reach the sixth year, it was something like

midnight of around to 1:30 it will go,

lot of interesting questions, who will be sitting in the first row?

Indiresan during his time, Natarajan during his time

all then even Narayana Murthy will be sitting in the front

row asking those many of them will answer

the questions which is not answered by the students

ultimately and so, we had all the directors

very much interested in the quiz programme and

it was fun, it was lot of fun during those days.

And there is. I I enjoyed doing that up to about

1979 or 1989. Even during your period

quiz and then they wanted to bring Siddhartha Roy

from Calcutta to do a quiz programme. They want to

bring it even more. So, Siddhartha Roy said

yeah I can come and do it, but I need first class

airfare from Calcutta to Madras for me and my wife

and stay in five-star hotel and now they look at the

calculations, it was too expensive.

I think they actually next time.

And then came to me I said sorry

you guys went to Siddhartha and get Siddhartha

you know I have done for 18 years

I would have became stay also, get a new face

and it will be good for you. Yeah.

So, they started managing themselves afterwards

yeah and then, it went on very well. Natarajan was

a quizmaster. Professor N.V.C. Swamy was a

quiz master before me. Then because

quiz is always an interesting subject for everybody

because its science, general knowledge

everything comes into it. So,

There is a. and even the quiz programme for the Best Teacher Award

at the end of the award I will have a 12 question quiz

last year and year before last.

But in the in the most important thing

at this point is to say, how others

decide about our our only excellence.

Other from outside. Yeah.

We should well prepared. That's a very important point that's a very

important point because of the faculty

we are doing though we are doing teaching

and we are doing research how much of us

are being recognised outside?

It can easily see by means of two or three

facts; one is of course Fellowship.

I am the first fellowship of the Indian Academy

of Sciences and then I am the first FNA

to become become the fellow of the National

Indian National Science Academy followed by

my two friends who also got the FNA as

well as FASC as well as FNA.

This is the only section of you know

what is called of an institute where everybody

is a fellow of the academy. So, what happens?

There is something in this group.

So, we are academically strong not only

teaching in administration, but also in

what is called knowledge creation.

It is true that we have not created anything

like for consultancy which I did very late

even after retirement I did some consultancy work.

On this process I just Our research and equipmentation was so sophisticated

that none of the industry did not really find something which is

immediately useful for them. They used to come to us.

So, they they have become that's one thing.

Secondly, large number of foreign visitors came here

some of us some of the people are mentioned here,

but at a certain cases for example,

getting certain professors from U.S.A., USSR

was very difficult, but we got them.

Liechtenstein is a good example of how he. Yeah Liechtenstein, Bershov. Bershov.

Bershov. Yeah. Bersuker. Bersuker came. They all came.

These are really stalwarts in their field

and sometimes its very difficult to get visa for them

from the India Embassy in Russia,

then we write letters get letters written by DST

from the Government of India and all that and

get the visa. It was nice its got of difficult days See.

then travel was not very easy especially

from Russia to India and China to India and all that yeah.

Also our recognition also goes beyond the border of

the country. For example,

we have been visiting professor for example,

I have been a I have been a visiting professor to

Netherlands University for one and a half years

and similarly I been to Australia. Right.

And then of course, the National Institutes

that has become my main stay for a long time,

but he went there permanently after. Yeah I went

I went for a sabbatical one year

which is one institute in the world which is

takes care of finding drugs and cure for

all parts of the various diseases. There is a

National Heart and Lung Institute, National Cancer Institute,

National Institute for Arthritis, National Institute for Digestive Diseases

like that 36 institutions are in one campus

very close to Washington DC.

In these institutions now at the moment last

year there are seven noble laureates on duty

within one campus and the quality of work they do is

just simply impeccable because the facilities

and the money that is provided by the U.S. Government

is just enormous. You ask for something you get it

you don't have to write a project and complete,

you have very important thing working on it

you get the money allocated right away without sweating.

So, I had gone in 1994 for

a sabbatical from here, then I told them

that you know this MRI people are doing is for

diagnostic radiology looking inside the heart

and things like that. We can also use the electron

to do an imaging, but then it is

very difficult to capture electron together

very fast dynamics relaxation times of

microseconds nanosecond.

So, we have to develop very good expertise

in equipmentation before we can capture

electron image in the body and we also need

injectable free radicals inside the body

and while we were discussing that a company in

Sweden came up with a nontoxic free radical

which can be injected into animals and still

we can see the flow of it in the blood vessels and tissue

with that collaboration with them

I started working on an animal model equipment

and for the electronic spot a bit lo and behold

who helps me one of the engineers from RSIC.

Yeah, I know he has the best engineer. I know that I got the best

engineer even better than anybody I can

grab in the United States. So, I called him

take a sabbatical come here and the work with me.

So, he came. we developed a prototype equipment

for imaging free electrons in animal bodies.

The beauty of it is free electrons give image contrast

dependent upon oxygen concentration in the body.

So, you can map out indirectly quantitatively oxygen.

This very important for cancer cure, radiation cancer cure

drug users and various what you call

chemotherapeutic agents all work in presence of

oxygen don't work when there is no oxygen hypoxic zones

are not very resistant to radiations.

So, people wanted to look at quantitatively

the oxygen in cancers they had no way.

And this became such an important because

I know about 12 patents on oxygen imaging

working with; I just went on a sabbatical in 94

proved that it is possible do imaging of tissue and came back

came back in 94. 95 onwards

every other week late night at 1 o’clock,

it will be only the evening there,

there will be a call from the Director of NAIC

Director of the Cancer Institute saying that

when are you coming back for longer time.

I see you know I have lot of students to finish

you know give me another year.

Then every three months there will be a call

saying that we want you to enlarge that

particular machine so, that it can finally, become

directly useful for humans.

So, finally, the pressure was so much

I went and Natarajan, R. Natarajan saying

sir I will take a voluntary retirement.

Why do you want to go?

I said sorry sir health thing because I am

doing work here spectroscopy

I am very happy with my work,

but if something relates to human health

and curing human health I think it will be more

humane to do that job. So, let me go

he said ok. So, I called them

ok after I finish all my students next year I will come,

they processed for me and for my wife and children

green card and the embassy from

Germany circle calls me

sir your visa's are ready, when are you picking it up,

this is fantastic kind of you know inviting you

on a platter. So, I went to embassy picked up the

visa and then said goodbye to IIT Madras,

there was a meeting at CLT of course, RSIC

people was so, attached to me

they for for the two or three weeks before I left

nobody was happy. This guy is going to go away

what are we going to do and things like that.

Unlike him I I basically retired from here,

but even before the retirement

we have been I have been also associate

I have been associated with the also the National Institute,

but that's not in. 18.

In the main campus, but in the 18 campus mainly to Yeah.

haemoglobin and without me

the boss cannot work. Yes.

You know always wants me to come there Yeah.

to solve that problems etc. I used to

we accomplished a very very interesting papers in journals of

high impact factor like the journal. Yeah.

And Chemical Society at least four of them

and then of course, Journal of Molecular Physics and so on

and so forth. So, its only publications etc.

Knowledge creation that's it. They are not applied,

its true its not applied.

However he said he with. But the most most important thing

interesting thing is having been an IIT

IIT campus that was really. That is that is

That really makes us different from the rest of the world.

You are an IITian whether you are professor or the student

its something unique. Yeah.

So, we also wanted to contribute to the

society and social things inside here. So,

I was a warden and many times the hostel employees

will come to me saying that, sir I got temporary job

and I will go and what I don't know what I am going to do,

its after 6 months my job is over, it cannot be returned

like that several people. So, I went and talked to

the then director was R. Natarajan at that time. Sir,

some of these people work for temporarily for 16 years,

temporarily for 12 years and that's not fair.

We have to kind of make them regular.

Where is the money for it?

You know when they become permanent

we have to give the medical facility,

we have to give the pension, we have to give this,

there is no money in the kitty

I said sir there are 1000 people including class 3 class 4 employers

in the institute were temporary. They are so called NMR or something.

Actually frankly speaking things were even worse.

Yeah. In 1984 or 85 when you were when he joined this institute,

at that time and that's only the the trouble started

between the students and and the workers. Yes.

So, the workers have to be I formalised their first first one.

I formally made them workers and there is a small document

which we wrote its a kind of a document they can use. Yeah, I remember

yeah. Formally

that that only with that thing most of them are become permanent

and part of the some of them will get the

children admitted into Vana Vani School. Yes.

Earlier it was not possible.

So, all those facilities were given

and the salaries were salary there was a salary

what is it called pay. Scale.

Pay scale was given that was the first time.

So, they still remember whenever I go.

I am the first one to do that and it so happened

the second also he has to do that

its on the people. Came to me and then we.

From the RSIC. We found out that the

you know we have a division Yeah.

None of them have a permanent job

we are all coming working, they don't even

many of them don't have birth certificate.

You call them you do what is your age?

What is it? I don't know sir.

I don't know my date of birth. That was the big problem.

So, Shanmugam the Former Registrar of IIT.

Myself, Professor Narayanan of Applied Mechanics Department,

S. Narayanan and one other person I remember

we all sat and told Natarajan, sir

let us take a few of them and give them some permanency

otherwise you know they are really going crazy,

they don't know what to do after the job terminates.

Many of them have their children’s studying here

they house in Velachery they have

they are not eligible for any quarters inside

because they are temporary employees and all that.

So, Natarajan ultimately ok, is this job which

you are not going to be happy to do. Its .

Sir we will sit every Saturday from morning 8 to evening 4,

in the Administration Building and take groups of

24-30 everyday interview them, see whether they are

qualified enough and they are doing the job enough

and we ascertain we had actually the Medical

Officer Ganeshan to come look at the teeth

to estimate their age. Like people do in a

market of cows and bulls. When you buy bulls

they open the mouth look at the teeth

and say this is likely to be 12 year old or 13 year old.

So, Ganeshan looked at the mouth of all the maalis and.

class 3 and class 4. No, but these there is a method of doing that.

And they estimated the age approximately

because we had write something in the appointment

this day date of birth rough date of birth

almost most of them were born on 1-1 something

they have faster and then we regularize the

overnight their salaries got tripled

because they were getting a very very puny job

always borrowing borrowing most of the time from me

if I am the warden and it will never come back. So.

Anyway some of us. they did that and then

Natarajan was happy, registrar was happy

that we had done it. Later on the audit highly objected it.

How come you suddenly make an expenditure

so much all of a sudden and you you have to

be censured by the audit and things like

that they started really making trouble

for Natarajan. Natarajan called me he said

they are censuring me, I am censuring you.

Why did you do this in a big scale as a

once we are interviewing we have to treat it

equally for everybody. So, it turned out

that we have to regularize 300 people.

Finally, it went through and everything was done

no problem there. So, after that when I

after I went away to U.S.A. in 98

after the voluntary retirement whenever I enter

because during that regularization on 20 security

people also were regularized.

So, when I go there invariably a couple of

guys will be standing in the gate, 'salaam'

Sir because of you we were still here

like that they will say.

So, I had I had enjoyed helping people

inside the campus. The campus is

as good as we keep the rest of the people happy.

So, that you know security people should be happy

class 3 class 4 people should be happy.

So, my partly trying to help them made me feel good.

Yeah, but at the same time you know there is a

there is always a process you know we are

still continuing to be associated with the department.

For example, take me. I I retired basically in 1995.

But then of course, I continued because I have

a Department of Science and Technology

Ramanna Fellowship was there

and subsequently in the INSA Senior Scientists and so on

and so forth, but in between in between these two

things I became a Vice Chancellor for the University of Madras,

that is mainly because for

what is it called credentials that are established

with IIT Madras. There is no doubt about it

because one of the so called member of that

search committee said nobody but him

shall adopt the position of the things

and he will make it make the university again become

similar to what it was under the headship of A.L. Mudaliar.

But of course, I did my best to completely modernize

the system introducing new academic systems

making new administrative setups and so on

and so forth, but some of them could not like it

and for political reasons I left

but doesn't matter I don't regret it.

I came back to the institute and of course,

Natarajan was there. Natarajan immediately said

he made me the first institute professor for some time.

So, I became a emeritus in emeritus professor here.

And subsequently of course, I have been having

different other positions. Now, I have a distinguished

fellowship which was given by the IIT Madras.

So, the action using which I was able to bring some

research funds and continue to do the research

and I must tell you both of us and including Surjit Singh,

we obtained a large number of individual research

grants in addition to what we get for the what we get.

So, most of the students worked in RSIC were supported

by us. Were supported by us.

We didn't Basically.

get any money from the institute. There was always project

and funding for the project association. Some of them

spend more time than they should, but then of course. Right.

We have to go to their support.

So, basic support we were always

taking good care of our students,

that's one thing. There was only one laboratory

in the entire I would say very honestly

I say that work for a minimum of

18 hours per day. Yes.

To 24 hours because our students are also

having the same habit of working late

probably coming late we nobody questions.

That because the campus was just nearby

we were living inside the campus

and Madras city is not a great place to go out to.

So, go home and then go back to the campus

and nothing like that it was good.

Another thing that you gave me as a

thing is what is your look on the campus

then and now. The campus in 1971

when I entered was lush

green it was November, it just rained and

all these sprouting of the trees had happened

lush green lots of monkeys

so, many monkeys that even they will come inside

our home and open the refrigerator and pick up. Yeah

that's why we began to get a key to the refrigerators. Yes.

So, monkeys, deers, the blackbucks.

My I had a big. And sometimes

I was in wardens squads number 8 for 3 years

the first 3 years. I think an anecdote comes

I tell you this. I was given a telegram

by the Western Union saying that

you are selected as an assistant professor

you can join with the next 6 months,

we will provide you with some assistance

with respect to travel and campus accommodation

will be provided. So, I come here

give my certificate to A. Subramanian who was

assistant registrar in that administration building.

He noted everything. Ok. Very good.

It turns out that his grandfather

and my grandfather are from the same place

I think the world is very small I told him

and I said I have joined and I said for courtesy

I will go and see the director and registrar and go to

Chemistry Department. So, I went and saw the director

he was there as usual with his jacket and suit and tie always.

Always always Ramachandran is always.

So, you are Subramanian yeah, I remember.

Yes yes very good I glad you come back

as everything ok. Sir only one thing in the Telegram

you said, I will get campus accommodation.

So, what should I do? No problem go and see the

Estate and Work Department

tell them that you have been promised an accommodation

by the director show your letter to them

they will make arrangements I am sure

you will get an accommodation very soon.

So, I said thank you very much sir and then

went and saw the registrar. Registrar had this

vibhuti here shaking his hands.

Sethunathan. So, oh, you are the new guy

who came from U.S.A. Yeah, I am the new guy who came from U.S.A.

So, what can I do for you?

Sir, this is the telegram, this is the letter,

they said they will give me a accommodation

you know how many people are without accommodation

in the campus? Sir I don't know that.

You are a young man joining Chemistry Department

now you are you know the junior

most faculty in the Chemistry Department

and you expect accommodation on the campus?

Do you think its a joke?

I said it is not a joke.

I am asking if it is not there I can't do anything about it,

but there is a letter, I talked to director

he says go and see the registrar I have seen you.

Sorry no such thing as accommodation for another

5 years you will get no accommodation to campus

go and get the accommodation in Taramani or Adyar

somewhere there are plenty of house available in Adyar.

Sir that I can enquire, but accommodation in the campus

if it is available please let me know. Ok ok.

Then I went down he was I think,

registrar was in the third floor, director was in the fifth floor.

So, I went up to the fifth floor sir I met the Registrar

and he says I don't get any accommodation for 5 years

because I am the junior most faculty

in the Chemistry Department. Is that what he said?

Ok, sit down. Call the registrar.

So, Sethunathan comes, sir,

you know as a director of the institute

I have promised a person

I have invited him to join us from U.S.A.

he already had a job in U.S.A., he did not take it up.

He honoured my request and he has come

and I have given a promise that I will give a job

accommodation and you see there is no accommodation

for 5 years. Ok. Let me ask you a simple question.

What is happening to wardens quarters number 8

he has walked around and found out what accommodations

are being locked up or not.

Sir that is kept for broken furniture.

Tomorrow take all the broken furnitures

throw it to the workshop or carpentry section

I don't care that has to be repaired cleaned,

whitewashed and given to Dr. Subramanian

within the next 5 or 6 days.

This is an order of the director.

You know I have goose pimple. Ramachandran.

Here is a director which says I have promised this young man

you give it. If you are a registrar

you are supposed to make things possible.

Its always easy to say, its not possible

that is a auditors will say audit objection.

Registrar would say statutory objection

I don't want to be people to object

you have to enable the director to get things done.

So, I promise this young man accommodation

he gets it by hook or crook.

He will get it because you know you just now said

there is a house be kept for broken furniture.

We don't build houses of broken furniture

in the campus because accommodation is so costly

in Madras. So, you should give it to him.

Yes sir yes sir yes sir,

The same thing. came down I have I have first he say

yes sir, he was waiting for me outside.

So, you went and complained the registrar

I didn't complain. I told him that

I will not get anything for 5 years.

So, I was just informing him that's not information

that's a complaint against registrar

you think. No I had my own.

You think you do you going to be comfortable

in this institute Sir I don't

know sir. I had I had my own with you.

Ok alright. Ok. You will get your accommodation ok

don't worry alright He wanted to prove

is he he has a little problem. Because he said

he cannot take that complaint

in front of me. say that he has a kind of.

The director told him so. he is the only one.

But Sethunathan was always like that rough and tough.

Not only Sethunathan that's what you take anybody

you ask anyone they will tell you the story about

Sethunathans reaction. This is an interesting anecdote I remember.

He is a nice person he is a very nice

person and he is very good registrar. Otherwise

he will do the job. But he has got his own personality

have to deal with. But anyway,

but that's all part of the things,

even I had the little quarrel with him.

Once by the unwittingly I signed it with the green ink

because that was one there is lying there.

So, I signed it to send the letter

he called me and said

sir began to the later began to respectively. So,

sir you have signed in green ink. Green ink.

That's my privilege. What your privilege?

Where is it? Give me the your statutory

only you can sign it. Then he came down

and said you know sir that is the practice,

whenever there is a green ink,

it is the registrar. Oh if you say that if you have told me

please refrain from here after you you

sign it in black ink or whatever ink,

but don't sign it in green ink I would have

agreed it to you, but you said you are

demanding that don't do that.

Kept quit I am sorry please sir

dont sign in. Don't sign in green ink.

So, I think we are going to conclude

in next 5-6 minutes. Before I conclude

you know I have one of my most wonderful

time of 30 years as a assistant professor,

professor, head of the RSIC things in the campus

and I was internally a little bit sad

when I told Natarajan that I am

taking voluntary retirement going away I was sad.

I went away, but all the time kept in

touch with my students and the faculty here

and every year or two when I drop in

in India it would be for IIT campus.

And definitely see my professors, colleagues

and things like that. It was going on and then

when I finally decided to quit my job in the U.S.A.,

God has given me great place

in this campus because I came

none of the door of Bhaskar Ramamurthi,

he jumped up from his door

are you not Subramanian yes

you taught me chemistry. I was in 77

batch or something like that. Oh, you remember that? Of course,

you are our best teacher.

So, you are going to be you are going to be in the

campus again I said how.

Welcome to chemistry, become an adjunct professor in chemistry.

You go on talk to the head of the department chemistry

and RSIC I am sure they can find a room for you in RSIC.

So, I went to RSIC they got the room ready

the Chemistry Department told me gave me an adjunct professorship.

And its kind of the whole story turned

back again and I am back in the campus

seeing my colleagues, seeing the deer, you know the monkeys

it just incredible, its like a dream

dream its really like a dream.

I am so, happy then

I came back and I am still associated

with IIT Madras that is just

an incredible great blessing of God. The name RSIC

did not sustain after 95 because for some reason

some reasons of financial allocation

etc. etc. It was converted into

Sophisticated Analytical Instrument Facility

which is in nomenclature wise it is little bit lower than

Regional Sophisticated Instrumentation Centre.

However, the one thing that I would say is

the the worst thing that has happened to

RSIC then now its called SAIF

is there is no permanent kind of factor. Dedicated.

No no Subramaniam there is no permanent

faculty associated with that. Yeah.

Because we have totally four faculty subsequently

one Dr. T.K.K. Srinivasan, four of us

and we could divide the work

and we will do in the academics

as well as administrations. Yes.

But here its only they are we coming

to the centre they are only doing the administration. Yes.

Whatever is signing papers etc. etc.

they do, but any administration of the centre

without an academic involvement

it will be a failure.

So, now, you don't use RSIC was projected

so much as a national entity and that's completely lost.

That's what I mean to say. For example, if an equipment is

not working my work will suffer. That's what I hate with myself, ok.

So, I have a vested interest in keeping things going.

Yeah. In getting things going.

Yeah. So, if four of my faculties have such

vested interest and keep everything working Yeah.

Then the institute the particular central

will really flourish and that was the story

in the yesteryears. Now, there is a little bit of slack,

but its its functioning ok because

Functioning if the IIT is functioning had this been in an

university set up. Everything would have decide

Every thing would have been closed to the plastic

you know cover and would have become bag or.

Anyway with. Still along,

still we are getting money last year we got

23 crores for a new equipment

and things like slowly RS DST also has woken up

initially somewhere in between there were some

kind of a story that why should you put this

money in various institutions and

then profit will go. Let the institution get their

machines let them these centres can be closed down

somebody came up with such a suggestion. Yeah.

And we were worried that someday its going to be

closed down. Then the new DST Secretary Ashutosh Mukherjee

took over 2 years ago and I was there in

DST presenting our progress

he said I think this wonderful concept

there is no question of closing down all this

we will in fact, boost these centres.

So, that they are extremely helpful for the

young people who are doing research

in rural area they are not exposed to anything

they will be able to come and do some work.

So, therefore, we shall make sure

that these centres will still continue to be funded

that's where the new DST centre designed.

It was a really a nice positive statement from

the Department of Science and Technology.

I think you know it will carry on. Only thing is

there are some dedicated faculty at that Institute Centre. There must be academic involvement.

Then I think it will even even flourish

better and more productive and more effective Ok, now

what then we say. Yeah I think thanks We should thank you for inviting us

for this opportunity from Heritage. into this programme.

Whatever we we could think of. Sometimes you might have

found there is more personal projection in this talk.

But then it sometimes becomes inevitable. Not all of.

because when you talk you usually talk about yourself you know

people are so happy to blow their own trumpets. Not.

So, sometimes it happens. In our case not everything has.

But basically the idea is to reminisce our time here and to really

complete and closure then this one of the best place to be

completely the best place to be.

Thank you very much. Thank you.

Thanks.

Good morning, Professor Vasudevan.

Thank you.

Thanks for coming and then giving us a chance to interact with you

and to listen to you about those days, the golden days

that everyone talks about when you were here,

for quite some time. I heard that, you came here

in '63 and stayed here until '97?

So, we want to hear more from you -n

how did you join IIT Madras, what did you do

before joining IIT Madras, and then your days at IIT Madras,

your academics and also otherwise.

So, we would like to listen from you

about your whole experience at IIT Madras.

Well, you could call it the musings of a Methuselah, you know,

I will try to make it as brief as possible.

I am nudging 83,

so, I have to cover a great deal of ground.

Since, you asked about my early days,

I came to Madras as a boy of 8 in the year 1943.

You must permit me to use the term Madras

with regard to Chennai, because that was the

name of the city all the time that we stayed here.

It's the name of the institute also sir, it is still IIT Madras.

It is still IIT Madras. Whenever, somebody tells me IIT Chennai,

Exactly. I correct them.

It's IIT Madras in general. Yes. Correct, by act of parliament, it's only IIT Madras.

Sir, sir, please, go ahead. Yeah.

So, for me, it will always remain Madras only. Okay.

So, I came to Madras in the year 1943,

when the 2nd World War was still raging.

I still remember going to school,

and my mother was warning me. In those days,

the Japanese were bombing; Madras was bombed by the Japanese.

And my mother had told me...in those days,

while going to school - I had to walk about 2

miles to go to my school -

she told me what to do when there is a siren.

There was a siren mounted in those days on all the

metro stations. There was only one line from Beach to Tambaram, Okay.

and there was a siren mounted on each of those.

And, the siren would go off at the time a plane was coming.

So, my mother had warned me - the moment a siren

comes on, run into the nearest place;

if you are sitting in a classroom, run to one edge of

the classroom, don't be at the center,

and have a pencil between your

teeth, so that no explosive sound would lead you to bite

your tongue and all that.

So, these were my earliest memories.

There were air raid shelters all around Madras,

and these were removed only in the year 1944,

actually, by my father, who was a retired PWD officer,

who was charged, at that time, to remove all the air raid shelters.

There was one air raid shelter removing something...looking like a

hard stone cylinder, that’s what they would look like.

And, immediately opposite Kodambakkam railway station,

it was there...these things were removed.

So, that is my earliest recollection of Madras city.

I remember the end of the war in 1945,

when the symbol V was flashed on the sky from

Meenambakkam Aerodrome in 1945, when Germany surrendered.

I remember, when India got independence in 1947.

I was at school and we were all marched off to the

playground and each of us were given one packet of sweets. Wow.

Yeah. That is all.

So, I completed my schooling in the year

1949. And, I was under aged. In

those days, you know, unless you are had a

minimum 14 years 6 months, you could not join college. Okay.

So, I had to waste one year. I spent my time learning...

time learning short hand and typewriting.

1950, in keeping with our family practice,

I joined the Madras Christian College.

Madras Christian College for us, was a family tradition;

my elder sister studied there,

my elder brother studied there,

my cousin studied there, even my grandfather

studied in Madras Christian College. Okay.

So, I took my intermediate there. All your family college.

Yeah, it was.

So, I took my intermediate degree in the year 1950.

The intermediate in those days was like the 12th standard now.

The schools were giving only up to SSLC, that is 10th standard.

In Andhra Pradesh, which I belong to, we still call it as intermediate.

You still call it intermediate.

So, this is what it was like that. And, following that,

I branched off into physics; my background is actually physics.

I took an honours degree in physics from...

Most of the people I know, who have

done metallurgy, they are all chemists. Yeah.

This is something unique. No, not necessarily.

Your own guide, Professor Ranganathan...

Professor Ranganathan was a chemist.

Chemistry sir, I know he was a chemist. Chemistry back ground? I thought that he was a physics background.

Well, anyway, Professor K. S. Raghavan, my colleague and Professor... But anyway...

No, sir... Professor E. G. Ramachandran, also physics.

So, I took physics honors, in which, my demonstrator

there was Mr. T. N. Seshan, the celebrated

Chief Election Commissioner of later days.

Before he wrote the IAS, you know, he also took physics honors. Okay.

And then, he was there at that time.

In 1955, having completed physics honors...the Advance

Centre for X-ray Diffraction here, under

Professor G. N. Ramachandran had just started. Okay.

And, they were offering an MSc degree course;

directly offered by the university not through a college. Okay.

Straight through the university. I was therefore,

the student of the celebrated biofacies Professor G. N. Ramachandran, Okay.

I was one of his direct students. And my other teacher,

there was Professor Alladi Ramakrishnan,

The director of the Institute of Mathematical Sciences.

And, at that time, way back in 195-in 1956,

for the first time, we came into contact and could use

actual X-ray diffraction equipment, Wow.

including cameras and all that.

So, it was a privilege to be connected with Professor

G. N. Ramachandran, who was a direct and if I may

mention, a favorite student of Professor C. V. Raman.

Actually, it's been my privilege to be

connected with two people connected with Sir C. V. Raman.

Professor G. N. Ramachandran was one, and the

other was Professor E. G. Ramachandran...E G Ramachandran

himself, later on. Yeah.

So, I took my MSc from the University of Madras,

specialization was x-ray crystallography; that’s my background,

x-ray crystallography.

At that time, my desire was not to become a teacher

or even to go to the IAS, but to join the Indian Air Force. Oh!

I appeared for the interview-for the interview for

Indian Air Force at Dehradun, all the way. There was only

one centre where they used to conduct the interviews.

It was 4 days of hard interviews, you had a lot of

tough tests and psychological examinations and all that.

Four people from all over India were selected, one of them was myself.

Wow! Good.

Having been selected from Dehradun, we were sent to Delhi,

to the Armed Forces Medical Centre there for medical checkup.

In those days, they were not so keen to recruit people, nearly

50 percent of people selected, would be rejected medically.

On the very first day, I was selected.

So, I thought I had my commission on hand,

but unfortunately, the next day the whole thing was

overturned and they said "you are disqualified."

So, it's really the slip between the cup and the lip.

This time the cup was almost, at the lip.

So, it fell. So, so that was really a shattering

experience for me, because that was my greatest ambition.

You know, in those days there were not many options open to people.

Either you had to go into the defense forces or

you have to join the IAS, these were the only

Class One kind of jobs available.

But right then, in the '50s, the steel plants were coming up. Okay.

And someone told me, that a study of metallurgy

would also give you a fairly good career.

In those days, the only centre giving education in metallurgy

in South India was the Indian Institution of Science. Okay.

The total number of students selected from

all over India was 16; there is a quota system, and

the number limited to Tamilnadu was 3.

Although the basic requirement was only

a BSc degree, you could never hope to get the BSc degree from

Tamilnadu there, you must have had an honors degree or an MSc degree

with a university rank, otherwise you wouldn't get it.

Anyway, I managed to get into it.

And, I was privileged to be a student of Professor T. R. Anantharaman. Wow, wow.

Few may have heard of him.

He had one of the most distinguished academic careers, Okay.

anyone could wish for. Yeah.

From school onwards, he was throughout first,

in the stated University. He was a Rhodes fellow.

In those days the Rhodes fellowship was offered to

only two people, annually, all over India.

Professor Anantharaman...and it was a pleasure to listen to him.

So, he was our role model.

And, with my background in physics,

and he was teaching his physical metallurgy,

My love for physical metallurgy grew. Well.

So, I became a physical metallurgist from that time onwards.

So, having completed the diploma course in metallurgy,

there were the usual options for me,

I could join Hindustan Steels,

I could join atomic energy commission;

I had an offer from both of these. Okay.

The IIT Madras was just starting.

So, I appeared for an interview,

I was selected for a faculty position at that time, Wow.

in the year 1959. '59.

But, the engineering classes were yet to begin after 2 or 3 years.

So, they shunted some of us off to Germany,

for an advanced technological training.

So, there were only 3 centres in those days

giving advanced technological training in metallurgy;

one was Berlin,

one was Clausthal, the third thing was Aachen. Aachen.

There was one Professor T. Ramachandran,

who served for a short time here.

He later on became a head of the

department and the principal at Surathkal. Okay.

Professor T. Ramachandran was already at Clausthal. Okay.

And, when we corresponded with him,

he said, "there is no place for you here."

And at that time, Berlin,

there was a little bit of a problem, if you will remember.

That was a time when Germany was divided into two parts,

and you could approach West Berlin only through East Germany.

Through East Germany.

So, I did not opt for it.

So, I came to Aachen.

Incidentally, I met a later colleague

who was to work here also, Mr. Dasgupta. Dasgupta.

Professor E. G. R. must have mentioned about him.

Mr. Somshankar Dasgupta was also there at

Aachen at that time, he came a little earlier.

I started my research work at the Technical University

of Aachen in the same area in which

Professor Anantharaman was working, namely,

stacking for parameter determination

and then, its effect on work hardening.

Very recently, I should tell you, sir, IIT Madras

and Aachenn have a strategic partnership, okay,

with a lot money pumped into between

the two institutions and lot of work is going on.

Much better, exactly. Lot of student exchanges are going on

between the two institutions.

That's what I said.

So, I started doing...but maybe at this time

I should interject with a few of my other experiences

as part of the narrative.

I mentioned already that, in those days, it was more

or less always common to have a ship journey

only from India to anywhere, whether it's

America or Germany and all that.

So, Professor Kraus who was coordinating the

IIT Madras activities from Germany,

he suggested, we take a boat from India

and he would reimburse our travel from there.

There was some confusion in those days between Bonn, Delhi and madras.

So, when we left from here, I checked with

Mr. Natarajan, "where I should go?"

He said, "you take the boat, you go to Bonn,

you meet the education officer in Bonn,

who will then tell you where you have to go."

This was supposed to be a

technological training preceded by a language course

- to pick up the language - it's given in a

different place, small place.

So, when we had all booked together, that Professor Ramanujam,

he was also along with me.

Professor Y. B. G. Verma,

both of these people, they were also...

Then, there was one, Dr. Garud,

who later on became principal at Nagpur.

VNIT, Nagpur. Yeah.

Well, when I studied there, he was the principal. Yeah.

Yeah, we all went together by the same boat. Okay.

And, there was one Raju also. Four of us had

booked a cabin in by boat.

Just a few days before we were leaving, there was a

telegram from the DAAD saying, "your tickets

have been booked by plane."

This is created another confusion because

we had already booked it by boat.

Anyway, I managed to contact the people,

they said, "okay, you can go by boat."

So, we took the boat from Bombay. It was a 14 day

journey from Bombay to Genoa and from Genoa

we were to take a train and this train would take us through Italy,

through Switzerland into Germany.

So, when I was going, its pretty interesting, that time,

the Suez Canal had just been reopened.

In 1956, you would have heard, there was a problem in the Suez Canal;

Gamal Abdel Nasser had blocked it.

So, people had to go all the way around Africa,

like Vasco da Gama in the old days.

At our time, it had been opened.

So, the interesting point that I want to mention

to you was that, Suez Canal is a very

narrow channel, like this, and there are two terminal points;

one is called Suez the other is called Port Side.

For those of the ship passengers, who want to

have a look at Cairo and have a look at the pyramids of Egypt,

they used to organize a one day journey. We would

get off the ship at one end, be taken through

Cairo where we could see the museum, to

the pyramids of Egypt, the Sphinx and all that...

and they would bring us back and put us on boat,

the ship at the other end of the Suez Canal, right.

So, we were taken and had the pleasure of

seeing the Sphinx, a short ride over a camel in the desert,

and also, going down one of the pyramids;

this is one of the interesting things there.

So, we were brought back after that and

when we are reached Suez, unfortunately,

the agent had taken too much time,

so, the main ship was already in motion.

So, we were on a motor launch and

they were telling us, "from the motor launch

you can climb up to the ship,

the ship will throw you a rope ladder."

So, the ship was moving, the motor launch was

moving alongside and a rope ladder was

thrown and underneath, if you have missed,

you are there in the Suez Canal.

So, all other people preceded me, and I was the very last person

Yeah to climb up the rope ladder.

Okay. Somehow, I came up in one whole piece into the ship.

So, from there we went all the way. They stop for a day in

Naples and from Naples you could see Vesuvius at a distance.

Wow. Yeah.

After, then, we dropped off at Genoa,

from Genoa, I had to take the train.

Now, what happened was, when we were on board

the ship, there was another confusion which arose -

there was an instruction from the Indian Embassy

that, we should not have anywhere else except to go

to our respective places where we could get language training.

All of us were not getting at the same place, at different places.

The ships' captain, who had earlier told us that

he had our ticket to Bonn, came

and said, "your tickets have been changed."

He mentioned me the name of a small town which

I had not even heard, there is a ticket which you are going to get.

I told him, "this is not my understanding, because

the registrar at IIT Madras told me to go to Bonn,

I have to follow only his instructions.

The captain was very angry, you are giving me a lot of work now,

I said, "go back,

I had asked you to book my ticket to Bonn, I will go to Bonn."

So, we got off, we took the train.

Now, they had another bit of experience. When our

train was passing through Switzerland,

we were brought down at midnight at Switzerland because,

by the Swiss police, on doubts that our passports were bogus. Okay.

All of us, 6 or 8, they brought us down from the train,

they checked our passports. By the time they

found out that the passports were genuine, the train had already left.

I had already told the education officer that

we are coming by this train, we were to reach on a Sunday.

So, when we finally took another train and reached

Bonn, there was nobody to receive us.

I didn’t know a word of German, none of us knew,

we didn’t know where to go. Then, someone who knew

the area came, he was good enough, a good samaritan,

he said, "I will telephone

Dr. Baliga, the name of the education officer.

He telephoned. When the education officer came,

he was very wild with us, "why did you come?"

I said, "I had been told by the registrar to come to Bonn."

"I had already given instructions, you should go to other places, you know, go."

He immediately brought us tickets and

said, "two of you will go, four of you will go here,

two of you will go there," like that.

So, from there I went to the place where I learnt German.

So, that is a very very small village called Blaubeuren.

Its population was only 4000.

Now, the Goethe Institute had deliberately selected

these places because they wanted

the people who want to learn the language, to go to

a place where no one speaks any language other than German. Any language other than German.

It is just like throwing a baby into the water to learn swimming.

I remember, sir, when I was in Japan my teacher used to teach

Japanese without using any other language. Exactly.

He says, "you should learn a language through that language only." Through, exactly.

Not through some other language. Exactly, exactly.

You are right.

So, now, this was actually the peak of winter. Actually,

December 1st I started,

there was snow and my accommodation was on top of a mount.

So, when I used to come down, I used to slip on the snow.

Oftentimes, my book will go

in one direction, I will go in another direction.

The classes used to start with morning breakfast at 7 o' clock,

along with the teachers, complete classes,

then lunch along with the teachers, because food habits were different.

There were some who were vegetarian, there were

some who wouldn’t take beef and all, among our students.

So, in a small place like that, you had to make special

arrangements. They would go with us and after lunch, back to class,

classes till the evening.

In Germany, you have a very early dinner 6 o’clock

back, dinner, and then homework.

So, this. Very hardwork.

Yes, but this was really very good because,

I didn’t know a word of German when I first went there,

but within 10 days I could manage. That was the level of

the training at the...as Professor Murthy correctly point

out, one of our teachers once wanted to give the

meaning for the word 'fallen.' 'Fallen' in German

means to fall in English.

There were people who didn’t know English also

in those places. And actually went, he actually went

upon on top of a table and fell down,

he said, "this is 'fallen.'"

So, that was very good and we were particularly

happy to note that there were people from various

countries there and the first thing which gave us

confidence was that Professor Ramanujam and myself

were continuously on the top of the class,

to such an extent that when we finished the first two courses,

we were required to finish only the first two courses,

we were continuously getting the 'Sehr Gut' note, that’s the

highest note that they would give, they offered only for the

two of us the option you could take the middle course,

middle course, the double promotion, you could take the next one.

Now, I didn’t want to take it because

I was not too sure what note I would get.

So, I told them, "I have been all along getting the highest note,

but you ask me to take a bigger examination,

I am not sure." They said, "it's up to you,

but we are sure you will clear it,

but whether you will get the highest note, we don't know."

I said, "I will go along with the usual one." Professor Ramajunam

took the higher examination

and cleared it.

We were the only two people who were offered that kind of option.

So, following that I went to the University of Aachen

and very...started work on the stacking port parameter studies.

Now, it was when I was there

that I came to hear that Professor E. G. Ramachandran

had taken over as the

first professor and head of the department here.

Now, while at University of Aachen, I had a boss

whom I will remember as one of, probably, the

finest persons I have ever met.

What should I say? He was more than a gentleman.

I found him a nobleman, he was extraordinarily kind to me,

extraordinarily kind, considerate.

So, I was very happy to work under him.

And therefore, I also took advantage. Sometimes,

I would go on the journey. I as a doctorate student,

he gave me the privilege of having some

Diplomarbiet students. People were doing the diploma

in Germany, which is equivalent to the master's degree in Germany.

They had also do a project work.

So, that could be a part of my project work and he said,

"you can pass it on to them."

So, I used pass on some work to them and take off myself,

to look around France, here, there, the places, like that.

So, one of the things I want to mention to you again,

which is part of what you have mentioned here was,

a camping trip I undertook all the way to the North Cape.

The North Cape is the northernmost point of Europe;

northernmost point of Europe. I am referring to the year 1961.

So, there was a German colleague and his fiancé,

and myself. There was a German Dauphine, a

Renault Dauphine car; I had taken my driving licence in Germany.

So, rented through to drive.

And, my other friend was also entitled to drive.

So, the two of us we went camping.

So, we had take tent accommodation with us,

we had to cook all this, because it involved a

round trip of 8000 kilometres

to be completed in 30 days, less than 30 days.

And, we were not so rich that we could afford more than 800 marks;

the old currency in the days those days was the

German mark. In those days, the German mark was

about one and a quarter Indian Rupee.

That was...that was all we could afford.

So, we could go only by camping.

So, we did take a car and I told him that,

"I would prefer to take the highway, it's easier for me to drive,

you take the city driving, I was like..." Was there any the speed limits those days?

People say, Germany is the place where

there are no speed limits, okay?

What about those days?

Yeah, actually I will mention this to you, when we were...

I remember, '96, my host drove me. Yeah.

A car at 250 kilometres per hour. Yes.

Until I saw the speedometer, I cant make out that it is actually 250. Yeah it.

So, it was.

Auto ball It was Autobahn., So smooth drive. Autobahn.

And, if it is Mercedes, you will never feel it.

They will say, they will always say, "the Mercedes engine is

absolutely silent, at whatever speed you will go."

Yeah. Now, I want to mention about the speed in some other connection,

I had mentioned this earlier.

It's a very small car, it could not go very much beyond

90 or 100 kilometres, the small car only.

So, we had taken this car and we were at...there is

camping places, all over Europe you have that. In the evening,

we will get down, pitch our tent over there, cook

on a small kerosene stove heat and then, take a look and go around.

So, we went through-through Germany,

then into Denmark and then, from there into

Sweden, and then, from there into Norway.

In the upper regions of Norway, you have the lap...laps there,

Lapland and then, from there, you go to the North Cape,

which are the northernmost point there.

Now, driving in those regions is, was extremely

dangerous in those days. Although we went in July,

there was still some snow over there and believe me,

the width of a road was probably half this, that

you are seeing. Only one car would pass. On one side was an abysmal fall.

On the other side, were mountains with lot of

crags, that kind of thing, we could easily pick up a

scratch and all that on the car; you have to be very careful.

Now, when I was driving there, at that time,

I negotiated a curve at, what you today say was not a

very high speed, somewhere between 80 and 90 kilometres.

For some unknown reason, the car sprang away from

the road, crossed a ditch. Fortunately, where we were

going, there was little expanse, jumped along the ditch,

and came, fortunately, rightside up on the other side.

That shook us to no end,

but, we came out in one whole piece, we got out.

Now, there was a ditch and there was a road here.

So, the the problem was, how to get the car across a ditch?

Yeah, yeah.

Fortunately, it was a small car and there were

friendly passersby. They halted their car, hefty chaps,

all of them physically lifted the car

and brought it back. I mention this for that speed only.

Because, there were regions there,

where you could not really go too fast.

Norway, in those days, were

not so rich, they had not struck oil in those days.

So, in the summer when we went, there used to be

terrible stench of fish, because they would be

drying fish all the way around the river.

So, we went all the way to the North Cape.

On the way, I could read a newspaper at 2 o' clock

in the night, because the it was land of the midnight sun.

It was still so bright.

So, I reached there, and there is a very small shop there, and

then, the North Cape itself is nothing more than

just a stone and then, an arrow pointing towards a North Pole.

From that point onwards, it's water. Okay.

So, I went there and they had a

small register in which the names of all people

Who? who had come from

various countries that entered. Entered.

I thumbed through it, maybe, I did not look into it carefully,

but, I did not see any other Indian name

before my...was very happy.

One of the first Indian to land there.

I don’t know.

May...maybe it's not correct, there could have been other people.

I said one of... I might not have seen it.

One of the person... I might not have seen it.

So, we came back, but what you mentioned.

We had another problem language problem.

When we were coming down through Finland,

Finnish and Hungarian belong to a different group of languages.

These have nothing to do with Indo-

German languages, absolutely different.

The other languages are not far about. For example,

in Swedish, the word for bread is Broder,

It is Brot in German, Brod in Swedish;

you could somehow get along, but when you coming to Finland,

absolutely, the language is totally different, only sign language.

But, we managed to somehow come. Then,

we completed all the, the entire journey, 8000 kilometres

in 30 days and we reached Aachen. And, the cost including

repairs to the car, each of us paid only 800 marks. Wow.

So, that was one of the interesting... So, you could

I undertook in 1963 .

What aspects of metallurgy you have, kind of, got

the expertise during your stay in Germany?

Well, actually I was mentioned,

I concentrated well, I did go and attend classes.

Stacking falls, you mentioned. Yeah, my area which I concentrated,

but I attended lectures also, in other areas - extraction metallurgy,

general physical metallurgy and all that, they were not very different.

But, you were also allowed to operate some machines, for example, microscope?. Yeah!

X-ray diffractometer was the first thing. It like,

the whole thing was...what should I say...

very, looked like predestined and all that. Okay.

When I went to that place, my boss had just ordered

for an X-ray diffractometer, he had not worked on that himself. Okay.

And, he had nobody to work with it. Alright.

But, with my background under Professor G. N. Ramachandran,

I was familiar. The still...the diffractometer was new at that time there.

So, I started working with that.

There was an electron microscope there.

Yeah, that’s what I wanted to know whether you would have...

Misses Butanuth, was a lady.

She also came here later on,

she didn’t stay long enough here. Mrs. Edith Butanuth.

That was the electron microscope,

but, those..those days, you know, we couldn’t go and touch

or operate any of those.

Whereas, the as far as the X-ray laboratory was concerned, everything..

in fact, we had also got an x-ray fluorescence spectrometer,

at that time.

My boss asked me, "can you look after both of these?"

I said, "no, that’s not possible."

So, it was, later on, passed on to a Hungarian colleague.

So, I stuck only to this,

I used to don’t only my studies concerned with the X ray diffraction, but

there were people coming from other...

who wanted x-ray diffraction pictures taken.

So, I used to do their work also,

but, I did attend lectures in other subjects also.

Well, I had to mention this...the

this standard was not very different from what-from what,

You are want here.

It was there at, maybe, at one or two places,

it might have been a little deeper, that’s all.

19... '63 you returned here.

'63 I returned. This time, I took a cargo boat,

because, I had a lot of luggage with me. Okay.

So, I couldn’t come, so I.

I bargained with Mrs. Marga Schmitz of DAAD.

She said, "I will pay only the fare for a normal boat,

you pay the extra difference." I said, "Okay."

I took a cargo boat. And so, we had a very interesting journey.

While we were coming back, we passed by the side of Italy.

Some of you have might have heard of this name of the cinema

Stromboli in which Ingrid Bergman starred.

Stromboli is the name of a volcano, still active.

Still active, and our boat was just

passing by this side of Stromboli.

It has got a...it's a volcano, you know?"

And, the crater mouth is like this...

So, in the night, we could still see red hot lava flowing down.

There were fishermen on the other side.

So, in the night, it was a beautiful sight as our ship was coming,

to see an active volcano in operation.

Then, from there we came

under the monsoon quarters somewhere.

So, this is very interesting because the ship was oscillating violently.

Now, in a cargo boat, passenger accommodation is like first class accommodation.

Okay. So, I had a cabin all to myself.

Now, it was some kind of a, what they call Klappbett in German,

folding bed, and there was a ring on the wall;

this was to allow for the fact

that you dont fall down during tossing of the ship.

So, I had to hook my hand

through the ring on the wall, so I should not fall down.

It was really oscillating by about,

a minimum of 45 to 50 degrees.

Oh. Because you are in the middle of a monsoon.

The more embarrassing thing was that,

when I came down for lunch, we were only a few people.

So, we were sitting like this, you know, our plates were all there.

So, when the ship was taking a toss,

I was often seen eating out of my neighbours plate,

so, of course, which displeased him.

So, I reached India back

in late July 1963 and joined duty on 1st August 1963.

We were all put up in a few rooms in the metallurgy workshop,

the MSB was not yet completed.

Professor Ramachandran was sitting on top, we were also sitting over there.

My colleagues at that time,

Dr. T. Ramachandran had already retired; Professor L. S. Dasgupta,

and Mr. Ramakrishna Iyer,

who was there at that time; Ragunatha Rao,

he was also there; there was one Venkataraman.

So, far as it's not too many people.

So, metallurgy was all in one building, the workshop.

Practically there only.

So, the... The crates were still being opened.

forming did not come up.

No, the crates were still being opened, you won’t believe it,

the very first batch which graduated out of IIT Madras in 1964,

they graduated in the year January not in July because,

following the Chinese invasion

there was an acceleration of the courses. Okay.

And, all the courses are required to be complete by January.

So, with the effect that, the very first batch graduated

without ever having taken a peak

into an optical microscope.

Oh not even. The crates were still being... the crates were still being opened.

Okay. The crates...and unfortunately the

the Metallurgy department was planned by

a few people who belonged to mechanical engineering.

So, they were not all really familiar.

Okay. So, we did not get the kind of equipment we needed.

The only X-ray unit we got was the outmoded ciphered x-ray unit,

An unstabilised unit, 57.3 millimetre camera.

That was all that we had on the camera.

You couldn’t do any kind of research work with that kind of thing.

So, I felt really lost.

After cosming back here,

I couldn’t do any work in the area of x-ray diffraction

until we got the X-ray defractometer.

This we got, thanks to Dr. A. Ramachandran.

Dr. A. Ramachandran came as a breath of fresh air. 1968,

he brought research into IIT, at that time.

So, we were to get some x-ray facilities

and I had gone on a Humboldt.

So, I was one of the first go on a Humboldt, myself and

the Professor B. V. Rao from IIT Madras.

So, Professor Ramachandran knew

about this I was working in x-ray diffraction.

When I came back in 1969, he said,

"we have an arrangement with Germany,

about two hundred thousand

German marks worth of equipment to come.

But, we want to have a centralized facility because, you can use it,

metallurgy, chemistry, can use it,

physics can use it, we cannot have separate.

So, we will have one central x-ray facility."

So, our Central XRD came that way.

Right, came that way.

So, he asked me, "you plan it out."

Okay. So, I planned out.

So, this was '69 - '70. '69 - '70.

But, the equipment had not yet come, Okay.

we had to place an order.

Professor Zeurn had come from Germany,

he was helping us in getting all this equipment.

So, we had planned this kind of thing,

I had worked with the Philips unit there,

So, I said, "I prefer Philips unit, Philips diffractometer"

Professor Zeurn helped us, otherwise we might have got other units.

So, he constituted a committee of which I was the convenor.

And, there was Professor Aravamudhan of Chemistry,

Professor Ramanamurthi of Physics, these were my other two people,

this was a... and myself as a convenor.

Now, he said, "you have to get it started and going immediately on its arrival."

By the time we came to know that everything has been

shipped, it was '73 January, also it was coming...no place.

So, the faculty association was, those days,

located in those small rooms,

where we now have a Central XRD lab.

So, we requested that they vacate to another place,

and otherwise, construction would have taken more time.

Okay. And, we had do it.

So, the equipment landed in Madras port,

and the Philips people were very helpful

and within 1 month flat

of the equipment landing in Madras port,

we had the laboratory going.

Completely. Completely.

X-ray diffractometer and then, small scale, small angle scattering

and, you know, other associated things also going and...

But then, were there any efforts to do texture those days, x-ray texture?

No, at that time what happened was,

I was not actually in the area of texture. Texture.

I understand, Mrs. Mahalakshmi Seshasayee, later on also, was working on texture.

Dr. T. Ramachandran was working on texture. Okay. Earlier.

Yeah, yeah. But, he was not here at the time, when this came.

I think we did get some attachments, I am not too sure about that.

But primarily, the interest was in powder diffraction. Powder diffraction.

Ozone powder diffraction. I understand.

So, this was the main thing.

So, professor... I got excellent cooperation from

Dr. Aravamudhan and Dr. Ramanamurthi,

both of them they pitched in. But more importantly,

not only did we not have any space for me at that time,

I had to move to whatever space was available,

I had no staff, nobody, nothing.

Get started working, I was one man who was trained in that area.

So, at that time, I had the great good fortune

of getting two outstanding students;

one was Professor Kesavan Nair. Oh! Okay.

Who graduated from IIT,

And was my MS student also,

and there is Dr. Pathiraj, who is now in Holland. Okay.

These two people joined me at the right time.

Professor A. Ramachandran told me that,

"I want the laboratory to function; function means function."

so. When I actually joined here in 2004, Professor Nair was not there,

So, I was made XRD incharge.

So, I was central XRD incharge for some time.

So, what we did was, we also agreed that no student should be turned back.

So, Dr. Kesavan Nair, who started working,

that time, fortunately, we also had the service of

Professor Macherauch from Germany.

Professor Macherauch, is a very well known person

in the area of residual stress analysis,

,that’s how we started under residual stress. Yeah, sure.

He came for a one month stay here.

So, he came to our XRD laboratory,

at the same time, Nair was there, Prathiraj was there.

So, he instructed, he personally used to spend time here, night and day,

and set up the facility, trained them and all that.

Subsequently, residual stress measurements from here, passed on to BHEL.

Building Research Institute. Even now, sir, lot of industries, Ashok Leyland,

and a number of industries come for residual stress analysis.

Yeah, from here, yeah.

After that only, we got the Rigaku.

Rigaku yeah. The x-ray diffraction unit and all that.

Now, Mr. Varadachari joined us, at about that time Yes.

I was alone once again, I had practically no staff.

Varadachari. Nair fortunately, Nair, my MS student,

got the job as an STA. Okay.

That is something. Pathiraj still continuity as a PhD student.

Then, there was one Miss Meenakshi, I dont know if you remember her,

she was loaned to me by Professor Aravamudhan

as a ah technical assistant.

She is, now, in America also.

Then, Chandrashekar was there.

Like birds of passage...and when they left,

I didn't know what to do. I met Professor V. S. Raju,

he said, "I have a man working with me,

do you think you can train him, I have no need for him."

I said, "give him to me." That's how Varadachari joined us. Vardachari came.

He stayed with us and Just about

2 years back he retired.

He left.

So, actually, the laboratory, I must say,

I was in charge and general fashion...

but the real development, I must

openly conceid, was due to Professor

Kesanvan Nair who was my student, and ah Dr. Prathiraj.

Dr. Prathiraj, subsequently went to Holland,

where our work done here was recognised

and Professor Kolster from the University of Twente,

he was taking people from here.

So, Profesor Kesavan Nair had gone there,

I also, was invited twice, he had a centre for advanced physical metallurgy there.

They were working on residual stress.

So, But, that time, did any electron microscope coming to IIT?

Yes, electron microscopy actually had come a

little earlier. Professor Sreenivasa Raghavan was in charge of that.

And, Dr... Any other facility...?

Dr. Butenuth...no these

were the things. The scanning electron microscope

was still coming a little later.

I think Dr. Gokul Rathan subsequently

came too, later, little later.

But, you know, I had my hands full with

XRD itself. XRD, I did not want

anything else. And, I was also getting interested

in some of the areas at - some other areas at that time,

I wanted to go into development and technology.

So, so x-ray diffraction and residual stress analysis is one aspect of it.

Then, I wanted to develop some other

areas also, fairly unfamiliar areas,

because I have always been thinking that there is a great difference between

fashionable science and relevant science.

And, I am a person who

goes in strongly for relevant science, that is where the

the, you must have tangible results,

for whatever money you Correct.

put into it. Correct.

It's my personal point of view that,

if you put into 10 crores of money and then get

3 papers published,

however, exalted the journal...

Maybe, it's my personal view, I am wrong,

it's possible, but it's my personal view.

I personally believe that, rather than that,

if you can spend doing some work

on improving any aspect of technology by 10 percent,

guaranteed 10 percent,

with a marginal input of money, public money,

that is really, the kind of

development meant for this country. Anyway, this is a personal opinion.

Okay, to come back to our thing.

So, 1968, we started our postgraduate

programme in metallurgy. That was the first

postgraduate programme was physical metallurgy,

1968, we started.

Year after that, Professor E. G. R.

was always very keen on industrial metallurgy.

So, he said, "physical metallurgy we are there, for industrial

metallurgy, we will get the people from Germany."

So, Professor Zeurn came in for welding,

there was one Professor Bandow who also came in

for welding, Professor Wagener came for metal forming.

And, there was Dr. Panchanathan, Dr. Roshan etcetera,

Dr. Prabhakar, they were all taking care of foundry.

Foundry, and Prabhakar was also looking

after non-destructive testing at the same time. Non-destructive, correct.

So, this way, it was being developed and

I did feel that the demand for physical metallurgy was

coming down because there was a feeling

among many people that the MTech in

physical metallurgy does not really fetch you jobs.

So, I did try to bring in a practical emphasis to physical metallurgy.

So, bringing in some kind of, you know,

real cases of a courses and fracture analysis,

real case of fracture and things like that.

So, we did change the

ah the title from physical metallurgy to materials technology,

to indicate their support.

So, this is how..

So, when I joined, 2004, I can say

those days casting, I mean casting was

going down, welding, forming and materials technology

was enlarging. Materials technology.

Of course, a big boost came when,

Professor Padmanabhan

joined metal forming. He was

an outstanding person and

today he is going to give, He is going

give the lecture today.

he came from Banaras to join us,

and, it was a very good acquisition by the

department to get Professor Padmanabhan.

So, that's how it started.

So, afterwards, subsequently, I had been making some visits to

Foreign countries periodically.

I was spent a year as a Humboldt fellow,

'68 to '69, I told you. I was

at the Max Planck Institute of Stuttgart,

where the person sitting at the table next

to me was Professor Anantharaman himself.

We were together to take the work under Professor Gerold.

And actually, I had gone to Professor Gerold only as

Professor Anantharaman suggested that.

So, Professor Anantharaman and I were

working together for 1 year at

the Max Planck Institute.

Then, 1977 I was given a Max Planck

Society Senior Fellowship. I went

on a sabbatical, this time to the Max Planck

Institute for metals research

at Dusseldorf. At that time, I did

some work which incidentally

got me a invited membership

into the ICDD. I didn't remember or

know at that time, that this work is going to lead to that.

I was doing it as an aside, actually.

Very different from what I was going to do there.

So, '77 - '78, I was there and I came back.

'82 I again went, this

time there to the Institute for Refractory Research at Bonn.

I wanted to work with my old boss Professor Maddox there.

I was put along with a geologist

but what we had in common was

x-ray diffraction. Okay.

So, we were working with that one.

'87 there was, once again I visit

there was a INSA and KNAW,

KNAW is the Royal Dutch Academy of Sciences

and the Indian National Science Academy, there was an exchange programme.

So, he went visiting Holland

because Professor Kolster wanted me to come out,

Professor Kolster had come and visited us here.

He was very impressed and he said, "I want

to take your people here and build up."

He went there and he again, called me in 1989.

I spent 3 months there, at which

time he even asked me to deliver some

lectures to his students,

which I understand, was well received by the students.

So, after that I had...

he had wanted me to come

every year, if possible,

for a few months there, but that wouldn't work out because

we had rules in those days, you know.

I had to spend 3 years, I had to be under a bond here. Okay.

Whenever I used to go, that was not possible.

Nowadays, in principle, every summer you can go if you are

Exactly. willing to.

Exactly. That's possible.

Now, the all this was not possible, in

those days. Yeah, yeah.

So, in 1995, I were superannuated. Okay.

And, at that time, the emeritus fellowship was just

coming in. Not by the IIT,

but the All India Council of Technical Education. Okay.

So, I was one of the first to get that, only for a period of 2 years.

2 years. '95 to '97.

So, in that period of time, I want

to come to this aspect now,

towards the end of my stay, I was getting

interested in the area of developmental technology.

Now, I was always interested to know how

Russians had pulled themselves up with their bootstrap,

they did not have have money enough money

and still, they were doing research work

comparable to what the Americans were doing.

We used to get translations of the

Russian research work here.

So, I used to spend a lot of time in the library here,

looking into the Russian research papers.

What interested me there was,

very often, the papers were very short,

2 pages or 3 pages - this is what we have done and this is the result.

They would not necessarily go into the thermodynamics behind it,

they would not go into the theoretical

studies behind it, this is what you have done

and this is what you have obtained.

I was wondering whether there was anything behind it.

One such thing which interested me

was, this principle underlying the

thermocouple welding gadget,

it is mentioned as an Yasno Bogorodsky effect.

This name Yasno Bogorodsky

is not known anywhere outside of Russia.

It is mentioned in a few Russian books.

The interesting thing is that, this is a

form of electrolysis.

Under certain conditions,

with electrolytes of a specific concentration

and specific voltages, you don't have

the usual kind of electrolytic heating

which is only resistance heating.

The fall of voltage between the anode and cathode

is not uniform there, normally it is uniform.

And, you will find the usual thing, discharge

of hydrogen at the cathode and things like that.

Now, with some electrolytes

and with certain voltage ranges,

you have some kind of a pseudo-anode,

it is not really a metallic anode

building up very close to the cathode.

So, the potential drop

is not uniform, it is very steep. Steep.

Over a small area and then gradual.

This steep is so strong

that it can give rise to a spark discharge

and the spark discharge will produce tremendous heating

at the cathode; tremendous heating at the cathode.

So, the whole idea was,

the right concentration

and the right...I could not get information from the old books here.

At that time, Professor Indiresan had sent me as part of a

Government of India delegation to the then USSR,

for studying corrosion, a joint research in the area of corrosion.

So, we visited several parts of the old USSR.

So, when I was in Moscow,

I requested the people there, those days, you know,

the commissioner, so, everything there,

they could dictate and call a professor like this.

So, I said, "such and such a professors written a book,

I was wondering whether I

could talk to him?"

We will summon him here.

So, he was there.

So, I said what is it

I said, "sir, you have written this..

I have been trying something here, I did not

quite succeed, do you remember?"

"No, no, I got the information somewhere else also,

I dont exactly remember it."

So, I came back,

but then, subsequently a

student working with me here, at that time,

I think, his name was Rajia,

he found out,

after lot of experimentation

one day he just walked into my room and said,

"sir, I have got it."

I couldn’t believe it, there it was.

Then, we immediately thought,

this kind of concentrated heating

in a small area, you will understand,

we could melt copper,

We could melt copper,

under the cathode it will drop down,

and, if you touch the electorate it will be at ambient temperature.

So, almost the entire heat was concentrated now.

Because of this, there was no energy loss. Okay!

So, I got one of my students

Pampa Rao to do actually these

specific measurements in the

electrical engineering department

with regard to power consumption.

We, first of all, took a very large transformer,

that was found to be a wastage.

They said, "this is not necessary, this is not necessary."

You wont believe, it when we finally built

the thermocable building gadget,

it was only 17 watts transformer, just 17 watts.

The time taken for a thermocouple weld

time taken, it was working from a 5 ampere outlet,

please understand,

a welding working from a 5 ampere outlet.

Not heard of ususally! You cant.

We had thermocouple welding gadgets here, imported from there.

The cost of manufacture was only 500 rupees. Wow.

And the cost of one weld

was less than one tenth of one paisa.